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You Have Never Seen Reality: Discover Who You Actually Are in Only Two Minutes | Rupert Spira — Transcript

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0:00The world is not really physical.
0:02Whether you're having a psychedelic
0:03trip, a vision of God, a near-death
0:05experience, consciousness, it hasn't
0:07changed. It's perception that's changed.
0:10Materialist scientists [music]
0:11say that consciousness is generated by
0:14matter. It's like believing that waves
0:16generate oceans and movies generate
0:19screens. Most people feel that being the
0:21body is their primary experience. That's
0:24a mistake. God's being is infinite and
0:27eternal. Enlightenment is the most
0:29misunderstood word in the entire
0:31spiritual literature.
0:33>> The truest essence is not what many of
0:36us are interacting with.
0:37>> If you unblend your experience just by
0:40going back to the simple awareness of
0:43being. There's a place in you that has
0:45never been traumatized. This recognition
0:48of the nature of your being, it's the
0:49ultimate healing.
0:51>> What happens to our knowing when our
0:53physical bodies no longer exist?
0:55>> It was never a separate space to begin
0:57with.
1:04Hi, I'm Miami.
1:06>> And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
1:07>> And welcome to our breakdown. We've got
1:10a lot of shocking questions to ask
1:12today. What if every major religion has
1:16actually misunderstood not only the true
1:20nature of God, but our true essence?
1:24What if there was a fast track to
1:26enlightenment that all of us can access
1:29for free right now?
1:31>> And what if we've actually been lied to
1:33about what enlightenment actually is?
1:35We've been sold courses and books and
1:37steps and paths and none of them are
1:40actually leading there.
1:41>> Our guest today does not promise
1:43anything except access to the part of
1:46you that has always been and will always
1:49be. Rupert Spyra is a leading voice of
1:53clarity in contemporary spirituality. He
1:55is known for his ability to guide people
1:59to a direct experience of their innate
2:02happiness, their essential nature. He
2:04uses what's called the direct path
2:07approach. I had never heard of it, but
2:09he's going to explain nonduality to us.
2:13And this is, I'd say, one of our more
2:15intellectually astonishing episodes. He
2:17listened to our episode with Bernardo
2:20Castreup to prepare for this episode and
2:22um he holds incredible retreats which
2:25you can learn about at
2:25rupertspra.com/events.
2:28He's got a podcast. It's the Rupert
2:30Spyra podcast. Um I highly recommend you
2:33are the happiness you seek uncovering
2:35the awareness of being um which is a
2:37fantastic exploration of all of the
2:39questions that we ask. But I'm going to
2:41be honest, we ask a lot of them today.
2:43It is a pleasure to welcome Rupert Spyra
2:46to the breakdown.
2:48>> Break [singing] it down.
2:50>> Thank you for inviting me. Pleasure to
2:51be with you.
2:52>> I've heard your name from many different
2:54people. Pete Holmes uh who we've had on
2:55the podcast spoke about you actually in
2:57our episode and obviously we have a lot
2:59of other um overlap. You're one of these
3:02names that kind of keeps coming into my
3:04life. People keep mentioning you here
3:06and there. Um, and obviously your your
3:08body of work is is vast and so important
3:11and we can't wait to get into all of it,
3:12but I wonder if you can give our
3:14audience um a little bit of an
3:16introduction to um you know to put it
3:19plainly who you are in terms of your
3:22mission and your life path and how you
3:24intersect with others and why it's
3:27important. So I have been um exploring
3:31and uh practicing the non-dual
3:34understanding for um exactly 50 years
3:39and um for the first 35 years it was
3:44just my my private practice. I was
3:47working in my studio as an artist. It
3:49never occurred to me to write about
3:51these matters or or speak about them. Um
3:53anyway, 15 years ago, I I did write a
3:56book. Um I thought I would then just go
3:59back to my studio and spend the rest of
4:01my life in my studio is what which is
4:03what I always thought I was destined to
4:04do and and and indeed wanted to do. And
4:06then I started getting invitations to to
4:09speak and and hold retreats and um one
4:13thing led to another. And so I then gave
4:17up my life as an artist and just devoted
4:20my my time full-time to writing and
4:24speaking about the non-dual
4:25understanding, writing, holding
4:26retreats, meetings and so on. Um
4:31why does it matter? because our culture
4:36is uh founded on the assumption of
4:39separation that we are all separate
4:42individuals separate from from each
4:44other separate from from the world and
4:47and
4:49I don't need to um describe the the
4:52inevitable consequence of the paradigm
4:54of separation which informs our world
4:56culture. One quick look at the news. We
4:59show that the um the inevitable
5:01consequence of the assumption of
5:04separation um outside of yourself out in
5:07the world. But the extent of um sorrow,
5:11suffering, anxiety that people feel on
5:14the inside is the inevitable consequence
5:16of the assumption of separation um
5:19internally.
5:20So why does it matter? Because um any
5:25solution to the the the um the sorrow
5:28and and conflict which we witness in our
5:31world today um from within the existing
5:34paradigm
5:36may at at best temporarily leave the
5:39situation but won't make any fundamental
5:42change. A fundamental change has to come
5:44from outside the paradigm. And that is
5:47what the nondual un understanding
5:49suggests that the the the the
5:51recognition of the unity of being the
5:54the the unity that underlies everyone
5:56and everything. So that that's why it
5:59matters because it is the the ultimate
6:02answer
6:04uh both to to sorrow, anxiety on the
6:06inside and and conflict in the world
6:10between individuals, communities and and
6:12nations. And my my mission I wouldn't go
6:15so far as to call it a a mission but um
6:21my vision is just to share my
6:23understanding such as it is uh with as
6:26many people as would like to know about
6:30it. A a lot of people might hear this
6:33and think, "Oh, that's something for
6:35optimists. That's something for people
6:38who are not engaged in the world." Like,
6:41he doesn't know what it's like to be me.
6:45Can you explain why why suffering
6:49results from this separation both on a
6:52personal level and on a larger level?
6:54And if that also leads to an explanation
6:56of non-duality, this would be a great
6:58time for that, too. If we don't
7:00recognize who we essentially are, if our
7:03identity is derived solely from uh our
7:07thoughts, our feelings, our narratives,
7:10our um sensations, perceptions,
7:12activities, relationships and so on, we
7:14will inevitably feel that we are um a
7:18fragment uh incomplete, lacking
7:21something. This this sense of lack will
7:24be our our fundamental experience. And
7:27we will always try to be relieving this
7:31sense of lack through the acquisition of
7:34some kind of objective experience, an
7:36object, a substance, an activity, a
7:38relationship and so on. And and likewise
7:41um conflict again if we feel that um we
7:45are an individual separate from another
7:49that what we essentially are is is
7:51separate from the other then that will
7:53allow us to um treat others in a way
7:56that we would never want to be treated
7:58ourselves. It's it um it denies the the
8:01fundamental u um unity that we share
8:05with all beings and therefore conflict
8:07is the inevitable consequence of this
8:09belief in separation. I'm holding just
8:11two of your books here which I
8:13especially um you know am recommending
8:16you are the happiness you seek because
8:18of the sort of format which I think is
8:20really helpful because it it's it's
8:23taking the questions that we all want to
8:26keep pushing on um to be met with you
8:30know some sort of equinimity but can you
8:32explain a little bit what non-duality
8:33is? non-duality. It It's the
8:35understanding that underlies all the
8:38great religious and spiritual traditions
8:39and that has been spoken of for the last
8:413,000 years by different people at
8:43different times, in different cultures,
8:45in different languages, in different
8:46ways and so on. But but the the the core
8:48understanding that lies at the
8:50foundation of all the great religious
8:52and spiritual traditions is the same
8:54understanding and it's very very simple.
8:58Namely, um peace and happiness are the
9:02nature of your being.
9:04and you share your being with everyone
9:06and everything.
9:08That's basically it. Now, why um does it
9:13seem to be complicated? Why have the
9:14traditions elaborated so many methods
9:17and pathways and practices and so on?
9:19Because of our um difficulties and
9:21objections and questions. So, when we're
9:24met with a non dual understanding, we we
9:26say let's take the first definition.
9:29Peace and happiness are the nature of
9:30your being. You might think, well,
9:33that's funny. When I look inside, I
9:34don't find peace and happiness. I find
9:37conflict and suffering and sorrow and
9:39anxiety punctuated by both brief moments
9:41of peace and happiness. I would say that
9:43suffering was my my bottom line. And
9:46peace peace is just a brief respite from
9:49it from time to time. So then in
9:51response to that the the teaching then
9:54has to elaborate a pathway
9:58um to help people recognize that
10:00actually the fundamental of nature of
10:02their being is peaceful. And depending
10:04on the time, the place that um that the
10:07person uh um how intellectual the person
10:10might be, how how in their feelings, how
10:12how heart-c centered the person might be
10:14that that the teaching will elaborate
10:16different pathways to suit different
10:18temperaments and different levels of
10:20understanding. So the nondual teaching
10:21has grown very complex. It's expressed
10:24in so many different ways in different
10:26traditions. But the core understanding
10:28is very very simple. Even though when
10:32many of us look inside, we're not
10:35tapping into peace and happiness, the
10:39the notion that many meditators and and
10:42those of particular religious
10:44traditions, those who have
10:45transcendental experiences, people who
10:47have had psychedelic experiences,
10:49there's a similar message there. we are
10:51all connected and that our true essence
10:55like the truest essence of us is not
10:58what many of us are interacting with
11:00when we look in the mirror when we look
11:02inside but one of the things that I
11:05think is is a challenge for a lot of
11:06people you know we're we're in an age of
11:09spiritual but not religious right and
11:12I've been a you know person of faith my
11:14entire life and one of the things that
11:17people most point out to me is religion
11:19is the cause of all of are suffering.
11:22All of the wars that are fought, all of
11:24the people killing in the name of God.
11:25You could even look at our current
11:27political climate, the global climate.
11:30You know, how much of our life and and
11:33I'm being the devil's advocate here,
11:35right? I have my own personal
11:37explanations, but I wonder if you can
11:39speak to from the perspective of if
11:42peace and happiness is at the core of
11:46all of the great religious traditions
11:47for thousands and thousands of years,
11:50why do people fundamentally kill,
11:53pillage, take land in the name of God?
11:58simply because they misunderstand the uh
12:01the core message of their religion and
12:05the
12:07when um the founders of those religions
12:10and of course the founders of the
12:11religions didn't realize they were
12:13founders of religions that came later.
12:15But when the founders of the religions
12:17were speaking about these matters that
12:19they were usually speaking to small
12:22groups of people but when they passed
12:24away others who didn't share their
12:26understanding then took their teaching
12:29um appropriated it um
12:33uh [laughter]
12:34mixed it with their own level of
12:36understanding misrepresented it um used
12:38it for their own egoic purposes and so
12:40on. So as the the religions evolved that
12:44they got more and more distorted and
12:46then used in in the service of the ego
12:50whereas and and and hence giving rise to
12:53all the atrocities that you that you
12:55mentioned. What we now know of as
12:58religion is so very far from the
13:00fundamental truth that the found the
13:02founders of the religions spoke of.
13:06[music]
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15:31>> Does non-duality require a belief in a
15:35higher power in a universal force or a a
15:39deity or God?
15:40>> Absolutely not. Non-duality requires um
15:44you to um explore challenge every single
15:49belief you you have not not only the
15:51belief in an external god or a higher
15:54power and but your belief in yourself as
15:57a as a as a man or a woman as a person.
16:01Um and in fact it primarily requires
16:05um an exploration of yourself because o
16:09all you know of the world or indeed a
16:12higher power stands in relationship to
16:14yourself.
16:16So your your your knowledge of of
16:18anything your knowledge of the world
16:20your knowledge of a higher power your
16:21knowledge of of anything will always be
16:25a reflection of your knowledge of the
16:28nature of the knower.
16:31So everything that is known stands in
16:34relationship to the knower. Be be that
16:38an ordinary thought, an emotion, the
16:39world, a higher power, the idea of God,
16:42everything stands in relationship to
16:44yourself. It is always you that knows
16:46your experience. So the non-duality
16:50fundamentally asks you to to to to
16:52question that you that that that self
16:55upon whom all your other experience
16:59relies. It basically says until you
17:01understand yourself until you know who
17:04you truly are, you cannot know what
17:06anything is because everything stands in
17:08relationship to yourself. So no, not
17:11only does non duality not require a
17:14belief in a higher power, non-duality is
17:17a questioning of of all beliefs, even
17:19our most fundamental belief, namely that
17:23I am primarily a body, a primarily a
17:26person, primarily a man or a woman. It's
17:29a very gentle but but but radical
17:32investigation.
17:34It it it makes no assumptions at all.
17:37for many of us who you know use a a text
17:42let's say that is quite old if nothing
17:44else right we we can know that it's old
17:47you know what what you're asking me to
17:49do and I'm happy to do it but what
17:52you're asking me to do is to
17:54you know step out of even the most basic
17:58texts right specifically of
17:59Judeo-Christianity because the Old
18:01Testament is already forgive me you know
18:06several
18:08several steps away from this peace and
18:10happiness that we're seeking. And there
18:12are many many beautiful, you know,
18:14aspects to to Judeo-Christianity and to
18:17those kind of origins. But once you get
18:19to the Old Testament, you know, and and
18:22I'm speaking as someone who has studied
18:23it for most, you know, of my life in one
18:25form or another, you know, once you get
18:27to the Old Testament,
18:29there is there is a God of vengeance and
18:32wrath and there is territory and there
18:34is, you know, a lot of suffering. um
18:37that that we are essentially you know
18:39and most of us don't keep to this but
18:41the notion you know of many of these
18:43religious traditions are about tribalism
18:46and about territory right if I when I
18:49tap into you know the parts of let's say
18:52religious experience that that are
18:55beyond that or before it yeah I think
18:58about what it must have been like for
18:59Moses to you know have a mystical
19:02experience that then was written about
19:05right or I think about what it was like
19:07for prophets to be in some sort of dream
19:11state and envision things that you know
19:14that no one could yet imagine.
19:16How do we reconcile that most of us have
19:19been handed traditions that already
19:22are quite far removed from these
19:26original sources?
19:28Well, some of the Old Testament may be
19:30far removed, but I would also suggest
19:32that the Old Testament contains within
19:34it the the what I consider to be the
19:39highest formulation of the absolute
19:41truth ever spoken by anybody in any
19:45tradition at any time. God replied to
19:48Moses when Moses asked God when he I
19:52think he was due to see the Israelites
19:53the next day and he said to God, "You
19:55know what? When I
19:56>> when I meet them, who what who shall I
19:59tell them that you are? What can I say
20:01to them about who you truly are? H how
20:03can I explain? They don't understand
20:05what you what you truly are. They have
20:07all these beliefs about you and but but
20:09what can I say about them to let them
20:11know who you truly are?" And and as you
20:13well know, go God sell said to tell them
20:16that I tell them that I am just what I
20:19am.
20:20>> A is the Hebrew. Yes.
20:22>> I would suggest
20:24God saying I am just I am
20:30that that is the that idea that
20:32statement is the foundation
20:35of all the great religious and spiritual
20:37tradition. It's the high I would suggest
20:40the highest expression of truth in the
20:42English language if properly understood.
20:44>> I want you to help us expand that out.
20:47Let's let's remove let's remove the Old
20:49Testament from it. Let's remove
20:51Judeo-Christianity from it. Help us
20:53understand why this concept is literally
20:58universal.
20:59>> Can you say from your experience now
21:03I am? Is it true of you?
21:07>> I think so. But I really respect you. So
21:09if you tell me that I'm wrong, I'll
21:10believe you.
21:12>> No, no. I'm going to I'm going to say of
21:14course you can say that.
21:15>> Of course I can say that, Robert. Of
21:17course.
21:17>> Of [laughter] course you I mean I mean
21:20let me ask you the opposite question. M
21:22Can you say of your experience now I am
21:24not. I do not exist. Of course not.
21:28>> Saying I am not presupposes that I am.
21:30>> What I wanted you to say when I asked
21:32you can you say from your experience now
21:35I am? What what I was hoping you would
21:37say and what I what I want you now to
21:39see is true that yes of course that I am
21:43is my most fun fundamental experience
21:46but I am refers to the experience of
21:49just being
21:50>> it's consciousness awareness
21:52>> nothing mystical is nothing t take
21:55religion meditation philosophy non take
21:57everything uh nothing I'm not referring
22:01to anything spiritual or um enlightened
22:04or just ordinary, intimate, everyday
22:09familiar feeling of being. You're you're
22:11having that experience like you you have
22:13it all day long. Everybody has it all
22:16day long. Just that simple. And um
22:18common parliament
22:20betrays this.
22:23All day long, we either think or feel or
22:28say
22:30uh I am waking up. I am tired. I'm
22:34having a shower. I'm having a cup of
22:35tea. I'm traveling to work. I'm
22:37answering an email. I'm lonely. I'm sad.
22:39I'm excited. I'm in love. I'm 22. I'm
22:4147. I'm married. I'm divorced. On and on
22:43and on and on. I'm having a conversation
22:45with my and Jonathan, etc. Always,
22:48always, always. I am temporarily
22:51qualified
22:53by a thought, a feeling, an activity, a
22:56state of mind, an age or a relationship.
22:59But the I am is the same I am. When you
23:03say I am now having a conversation with
23:05Robert and you said this morning I am
23:07now having breakfast. It you referred to
23:09the same self, the same being. So being
23:14is the it's the golden thread that runs
23:17unbroken throughout all experience. And
23:20it's the only experience there is that
23:24is constant.
23:27The awareness of being, the experience
23:28of being. No other experience you have
23:32ever had.
23:34Experience consists of thoughts, images,
23:36feelings, memories, sensations,
23:38perceptions, act and so on. None of
23:40those are constant. They are all
23:42temporary coming and going continually.
23:45>> But I'm always here having all of those
23:48experiences, thoughts, feelings.
23:51>> You are always present having having
23:53your waking state experience. You remain
23:56present um during your dreams
24:00aware of your dreams and you remain
24:02present in deep sleep aware of nothing.
24:05So this I am this just simple awareness
24:08of being is it it it's runs continuously
24:13present through all experience and is
24:15temporarily qualified by the content of
24:18experience thoughts images feelings and
24:20so on. I'm trying to answer you but
24:22experientially not philosophically. I'm
24:25trying to draw in answer to your
24:27question about what what God meant by I
24:31I am that I am. This awareness of being
24:36is your your primary experience.
24:41It's your most essential experience.
24:43Take a newborn infant.
24:46A newborn infant doesn't know that it is
24:48a newborn infant.
24:51It doesn't know that it has just been
24:52born. It doesn't know that it is a girl
24:54or a boy. It doesn't know that it is a
24:56person. It doesn't know that it has a
24:58mother. It doesn't know that there is a
25:00world. But it has the experience of
25:03being. It can't conceptualize that
25:05experience of course, but the core
25:08experience of being is its primary
25:12experience.
25:13I want first of all to draw attention to
25:15this ordinary
25:17familiar experience of being before it
25:21is qualified by experience. I if if
25:24being was was like the screen
25:27experience would be like the movie. Can
25:31I do an experiment with you?
25:32>> I love an experiment.
25:33>> Okay, great. Go now to the
25:37just to the ordinary intimate familiar
25:40experience of being the experience that
25:42enables you to say I am before
25:47that experience is mixed with
25:51the content of your experience before
25:53any thoughts, feelings, sensations,
25:55perceptions, memories
25:58try and go there and then tell us
26:00something about that experience if you
26:02can.
26:06Well, it's still
26:09it's it's quiet.
26:12>> It's quiet. Yes. Yes.
26:14>> And I would say if I had to describe it,
26:16it's unproatic.
26:18>> Only refer to the experience, not not to
26:20any ideas, just the the pure simple
26:24experience of being. Um, does it have an
26:26age?
26:27>> Um,
26:29>> imagine you don't have the faculty of
26:31thinking and remembering. Ah, no. Then
26:33it has no age. It's got no age. It's got
26:35no age. It has no gender or shape. Yeah.
26:38>> Prior to per imagine that you don't yet
26:40have the faculty of perception. It's
26:42like you're deeply asleep, but you're
26:44wide awake and aware of being. Right. Is
26:46the experience of being if you just
26:48isolate the experience of being?
26:52Does it is it located anywhere?
26:54>> No.
26:54>> Does it have any extension in time or
26:57space prior to thought and perception?
26:59>> No. How would you describe
27:01philosophically something that has no
27:03extension in time or space? Eternal and
27:07infinite. It has no extension in time,
27:09which is just another way of saying it's
27:11eternal. And it's not expended in space.
27:13It has no finite dimensions.
27:17It's infinite. We're not talking
27:19philosophy. We're just talking your
27:20experience. Not some mystical
27:22experience, not some enlightened
27:24experience, not some experience that
27:26some sages have access to that we don't
27:28have access. just the ordinary intimate
27:30feeling of being before it is mixed with
27:32or qualified by experience.
27:34>> Mhm.
27:35>> It's eternal and infinite. Now go back
27:38to the idea of God.
27:41How would you describe God's being?
27:43>> I mean we call it a self that which has
27:46no end.
27:47>> That's another way of saying eternal.
27:49Yeah. God's being is infinite and
27:51eternal. You recognize that your own
27:53being
27:54before it is mixed with or qualified by
27:57experience is infinite and eternal. And
28:00God's being must be infinite and
28:02eternal. How many infinite eternal
28:04beings can there be?
28:05>> Um just one
28:08>> just one and this is the this is the
28:11core understanding at the heart of
28:14non-duality. There's only one being that
28:17your being is God's being. the only
28:20being there is. But the reason we feel
28:23that we're temporary finite beings, in
28:25other words, separate individual people
28:28and so on, is because our being, we
28:30don't experience our being purely
28:34essentially as it is. We experience it
28:37mixed
28:38with our thoughts, feelings, sensations,
28:40and perceptions. So instead of
28:41experiencing the pure I am, we
28:45experience I am tired, I am lonely, I am
28:48sad, I am a man, I am a woman, I am etc
28:50etc etc. So that that the all the
28:55methods I would suggest in all the great
28:57religion and religious and spiritual
28:59traditions one way or another more or
29:02less directly not necessarily as
29:04directly as I have just done with you
29:06that the purpose is to take you to your
29:08being before it is qualified by
29:11experience and to recognize that your
29:13being is God's being the only being
29:16there is that there is only God's being
29:19and everyone and everything borrow their
29:23apparently independent existence from
29:25that one being. That's non- duality. And
29:29and I don't think it differs very much
29:31from from from your religion. It it
29:35doesn't differ from any religious or
29:38spiritual tradition. If you go right to
29:40the core of that, the language we use
29:43and the methodology we use of course
29:45differs, but the core understanding
29:49is the same. I think this particular
29:52experiment is the fastest way to access
29:54something that
29:57you know so many teachers and paths but
30:01like to be able to that quickly
30:05drop into something that is spoken about
30:08and courses are sold on and yet right
30:12there all of a sudden
30:15you can have access to it right away.
30:17>> Exactly. Exactly. unmediated access.
30:20>> How do we know that the nature of the
30:24human experience or our natural nature
30:26is that to be peaceful, joyous? I don't
30:29want to misquote you, but you you gave a
30:30description at the beginning of the
30:32podcast and then that answers it.
30:35>> The very first thing that mim said when
30:37I when I when I said go to your being
30:39and I could see that you were not just
30:41following me philosophically, but you I
30:43could see you had gone back to your
30:44being. I think the very first thing you
30:46said was it's quiet.
30:50That's it. That's it. Your thoughts may
30:52be agitated. Your feelings may be
30:54sorrowful. Your body may be in pain. The
30:57world may be in chaos. But if you go to
30:59your being, it's quiet. You didn't you
31:03didn't make it quiet by stealing your
31:06thoughts or it its nature is peace.
31:10irrespective of what is taking place on
31:12your thoughts and feelings. nature is
31:14and that's not it's not a belief you you
31:16it was the very first thing you said m
31:18you said it's quiet that that's it now
31:22that peace is available you know no is
31:26availed to everybody
31:2924/7
31:30just by virtue of the fact that that
31:33everyone is continually having the
31:35experience of being everyone is aware of
31:36being and anyone can go to their
31:39experience just like we did then and and
31:42access this peace
31:44When we talk about you know
31:46consciousness as fundamental this is I
31:48think a philosophical question where
31:50does this come from this ability to have
31:55I amness. The fact that you are able to
31:58say from your current experience I am
32:03means that
32:06not only that there is being
32:09but that you are aware of being.
32:14Your table can't say I am. That the
32:16table is it undoubtedly is but it can't
32:20say I am. There's nothing it is like to
32:23be a table.
32:26But but you can say I am because you are
32:29aware that I am. So when you say I am,
32:32what you're really saying is I know that
32:34I am. It is it is my experience that I
32:38am. I am aware that I am.
32:42Yes.
32:43Now
32:45take these take these two statements.
32:48One, I am.
32:51And two, I know that I am.
32:55Now take the eye that I am
32:59and the eye that knows that I am.
33:04Are there two different eyes in you? Or
33:07is it it's you that knows that you are?
33:12In other words, your being is self
33:16luminous or self-aware.
33:18You are aware of yourself, the same
33:21self. So the being that you essentially
33:23are is not an inert being. It's aware
33:27being
33:29or awareness or consciousness. So the
33:32words being and consciousness are are
33:33synonymous.
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36:41Jonathan and I speak to a lot of people
36:43who have extraordinary experiences. Many
36:47of whom, you know, are declared dead,
36:50let's say, in hospitals and they're
36:52brought back. And in many cases, they
36:55are witnessing and experiencing things
36:57that seem to be as if consciousness is a
37:01thing that leaves a body and can go
37:04other places. How do we reconcile these
37:07kind of conversations which do happen in
37:09the world of theoretical physics and
37:11things like that? How do we reconcile
37:14that with the the eye who's in this meat
37:17suit right now? When people say they're
37:20lying on a hospital bed, they're having
37:21an operation, they wake up in the
37:23operation, and they they they view the
37:26operation from the corner of the room,
37:28what has changed is um
37:32the the locus of their perspective.
37:35Consciousness hasn't moved or changed.
37:39They're just looking at the world from a
37:41from a different location. Their
37:43perceiving faculties,
37:45>> right,
37:46>> have been have been altered.
37:48And because of this close connection
37:52between consciousness and perception,
37:54they mistakenly believe that
37:56consciousness has left their body. It's
37:58not. They've just had an altered state
38:00of perception means that they're now
38:02experiencing that the room from a
38:05different location in space. It's
38:07perception that's changed, not
38:08consciousness.
38:09>> So they're still them. I mean, the most
38:11important thing for us is that they're
38:14they're still aware, right, that they
38:16are them.
38:17>> [laughter]
38:18>> M you you don't need to have a
38:19near-death experience to to experience
38:23this change in the locus of your
38:26perception. Imagine tonight you fall
38:29asleep in LA. You dream that you're on a
38:33Caribbean beach. Yeah. Now you view that
38:36Caribbean beach
38:38from the location of somebody on the
38:41beach in the Caribbean. your
38:44consciousness hasn't moved, but your
38:47locus of perception has moved from LA,
38:50right,
38:50>> to Caribbean. So, we're all quite
38:53familiar with with this um that the
38:56mechanics of perception changing,
38:58>> but I'm not picturing things that are
39:00actually happening on that Caribbean
39:02beach. I think that's my challenge is
39:07when people are reporting things that
39:10are happening in rooms that they're not
39:12in and like information seems to be
39:16existing in ways that the I who I am and
39:20I don't know either like I'm not
39:22convinced here
39:23>> but you're you're asking me questions
39:25about the content of consciousness.
39:30My interest and I think our interest is
39:33the nature of consciousness.
39:36Whether you're having a regular
39:38experience like each of us now is having
39:40a conversation like this. Whether you're
39:42having a psychedelic trip, whether
39:44you're having a vision of God, whether
39:45you're having a near-death experience or
39:47an out-of- body experience or what
39:49whatever never whatever you're
39:51experiencing, however ordinary or
39:54extraordinary it might be, it takes
39:55place in consciousness and it is known
39:59by consciousness.
40:01>> We have people try and say that
40:03consciousness is in the brain. The
40:06reason we think this in our in in our
40:08culture is because um just for the last
40:12few hundred years we've been brought up
40:14in a culture that believes that the um
40:17that the evidence that of sense
40:19perception sense perception gives us
40:21apparent evidence of a physical world uh
40:24that that pre-existing us as a person.
40:27So we presume that that consciousness is
40:30um uh generated by the body which in
40:33turn was generated by the world and so
40:35on. So we have this vision, this
40:37paradigm of of matter being the
40:40fundamental reality and consciousness
40:42being a derivative of it. But th this is
40:47in fact not consistent with our
40:49experience.
40:51If you stay very close to the evidence
40:53of experience, being aware
40:57is your primary experience.
41:00Nobody has ever experienced anything
41:02prior to consciousness. Have either of
41:04you ever had an experience of anything
41:06to two things one prior to consciousness
41:10and two outside consciousness?
41:13>> Not me, not this one.
41:16Jonathan, do you believe either for
41:19yourself or other people that you can
41:22have memories in utero? Yes, but that
41:28would be still
41:31being aware of this is up to you would
41:33still have consciousness.
41:35>> Yeah, you could have a memory in an
41:37experience in utero.
41:39But if you did have an experience in
41:41utero, where would that experience take
41:43place? In consciousness, what would it
41:46be known by? Consciousness. Let's say
41:48you have a a a vision of God.
41:53Where would that vision take place?
41:55>> In consciousness.
41:56>> The only place it's possible for any
41:58experience to take place in
41:59consciousness. Known by consciousness.
42:02Now ask yourself h have you or indeed
42:05anyone think of the billions of people.
42:09Think of the include all the animals
42:11trillions of beings. Has anybody ever
42:15had an experience prior to
42:18consciousness? Consciousness is the
42:20prerequisite for experience.
42:24An experience without consciousness is
42:26not an experience.
42:28what the materialist point of view would
42:30say, well, of course that's the case
42:33because we have a brain and so if we
42:36have a brain that has our consciousness
42:39in it, I can't have an experience or a
42:41memory or you know a vision without
42:43having the brain and then therefore
42:45which you know so it doesn't fully
42:48explain it.
42:49>> I understand I would say a mind rather
42:51than a brain. I understand it's not
42:53possible to have objective experience
42:56without a mind. For instance, it's not
42:59possible to see the world, experience
43:01the world without the faculty of
43:03perception.
43:06A human mind has consists of thinking
43:09and perceiving. I agree in the absence
43:11of thought and perception there is no
43:13objective experience, deep sleep.
43:17But that doesn't say tell us anything
43:19about consciousness. It just tells us
43:21about the absence of thought and
43:22perception. The reason that that a
43:26materialist scientist would would um say
43:29that consciousness is generated by the
43:32by the brain is simply because they
43:34don't realize how profoundly they have
43:36bought in to the prevailing materialist
43:38paradigm that presumes matter is the the
43:42ultimate nature of reality. They have
43:44simply subscribed unconsciously to that
43:46belief, built a model of reality based
43:48on it. And not only that and their
43:53identity is invested and their whole
43:55career and their identity is invested in
43:57that belief. So they are perfectly
44:00capable of following the conversation
44:03that we're having now. But if your
44:05identity is invested in a belief, then
44:07you're no longer willing to really
44:08scrutinize that belief because you're
44:10it's not just the belief that's that's
44:12um at risk. It's your identity, your
44:16your your sense of yourself that is
44:17being challenged. And and if if the your
44:20sense of yourself, your sense of your
44:22ego, it it feel the ego always has to be
44:25invested in something in some belief or
44:27if the if the belief is taken away from
44:29the ego that the ego dies. So that's why
44:32people defend their beliefs so
44:34tenaciously, people that are perfectly
44:36intelligent enough to recognize that
44:38matter is obviously not the fundamental
44:40nature of reality, but because their
44:42identities are invested in that belief,
44:44they hold on to it.
44:45>> I like that for 35 years you were making
44:47beautiful pottery and thinking all these
44:49things and now you get to like Godzilla,
44:51you get to come into the world and be
44:53like, you're all wrong. [laughter]
44:54Matter is not the nature of reality.
44:57two reasons why um that this prevailing
45:02materialist paradigm has has just taken
45:05over our entire culture. Um and we could
45:08explore either of them. One is that most
45:11people feel that being the body is their
45:15primary experience. That's a mistake.
45:18Being aware is your primary experience.
45:22If you think that being a body is your
45:24primary experience, you will then
45:26consider that awareness or consciousness
45:29is is um um a fac a faculty of the body
45:33like breathing or digesting. You'll
45:35think it's something that the body has
45:37or generates. But being a body is not
45:40our primary experience. Being aware
45:44is prior to the sensations and
45:46perceptions that constitute our
45:48experience of the body. Our only
45:50knowledge of the world is sense
45:52perception. Seeing, hearing, touching,
45:53tasting, and smelling. And we think that
45:56our sense perceptions are like a clear
45:58windcreen onto reality. We believe the
46:01evidence of sense perception. And sense
46:04perception there tells us there is a
46:06physical world outside our in our
46:09individual mind. I I would suggest there
46:11is a reality outside our individual
46:13mind, but it's not a physical reality.
46:15So the combination of these two aspects
46:17of our experience. One, the belief that
46:19being a body is my primary experience
46:21and two believing that the evidence of
46:24sense perception conspires to to to to
46:28create this prevailing um materialist
46:30paradigm that dominates our world
46:32culture. But neither of them stand up to
46:34the scrutiny of experience. Neither of
46:36those two beliefs stand the scrutiny of
46:38of inquiry or experience. I wonder if
46:42you can give us any window, you know,
46:44into how we can expand this into
46:48individuals who don't communicate in the
46:52ways that we typically would to assess
46:54awareness.
46:55>> You are now aware of your experience,
46:58the the sight of my face, the sight of
47:00your room, the sound of my voice, your
47:02thoughts, and and so on. Now, go back um
47:05it's it's morning your time. Go back to
47:08um dinner last night.
47:10>> Okay. Whatever you were experiencing at
47:12dinner last night, you were aware of it.
47:16>> Yep.
47:16>> Obviously, the content of your
47:18experience now and the content of your
47:21experience yesterday have changed
47:24numerous times.
47:25>> Okay.
47:26>> What about the awareness with which you
47:29are aware of this experience
47:32and yesterday's experience?
47:34>> It's the same.
47:34>> It's the same. And what about the
47:36experience you had 10 years ago? Is it
47:39the same awareness or a different
47:40awareness?
47:41>> The quality of awareness changes over
47:43time.
47:44>> The content of awareness changes over
47:46time. The quality of your experience has
47:49changed.
47:49>> Sure.
47:50>> Uh now you're having a friendly
47:52conversation. Last night you were having
47:53an argument with a friend or or or what.
47:56In other words, you can have two very
47:58different types of experience. One very
48:01positive, one very negative, one very
48:02pleasant, one very unpleasant. But the
48:05awareness with which these two different
48:07experiences are it's the is the same.
48:09The the awareness is the same. Now
48:11imagine that last night um
48:15you had had far too much to drink
48:17[snorts]
48:18>> and and and you were drunk. So you were
48:20experiencing an altered state.
48:22>> Oh yeah.
48:23>> Yeah. Right.
48:24>> You were aware whatever it whatever that
48:25altered state was you were aware of it.
48:28>> Yes.
48:30>> The content of your mind, the content of
48:32your experience had had changed. But but
48:34you were still aware of the experience.
48:36>> Yes.
48:38>> The awareness hadn't changed. The
48:39content had changed.
48:41>> Yes.
48:42>> Take that even further. Imagine um that
48:46that you were you you were very sick or
48:49or imagine that you you went through an
48:50episode of um some some severe mental or
48:55emotional trauma and and the content of
48:57your your mind was severely changed.
49:01I I'm I'm bringing in what you said
49:03about people with lockedin syndrome or
49:05or go go to the extreme more extreme
49:09than just getting drunk. What I'm what
49:11I'm trying to point out is that the
49:13awareness
49:15that the person with say lockedin
49:17syndrome has
49:20and the awareness with which you and I
49:23are aware of our current experience is
49:25exactly the same awareness, the same
49:27quality. The content is very different,
49:31but the awareness hasn't changed. The
49:33screen is always the same. The movie can
49:36be a love story. It can be a horror
49:38movie. It can be but the screen is
49:40always the same. Consciousness is like
49:42the screen. It doesn't change. You can
49:44check that in your experience. If you
49:46ask yourself, what is that? Okay, I'm
49:48going to do the experiment again. Ma'am,
49:50you you are now having the experience of
49:52being aware. So, tell us about that
49:54experience. You you are aware that
49:56you're conscious.
49:57Don't tell us about what you're aware
49:59of. Don't tell us about your thoughts,
50:01feelings, memories. Just that pure
50:05experience of being aware. How would you
50:07describe it?
50:08>> Well, it doesn't feel that different
50:09from
50:10being
50:11>> perfect. It it it's the same. Now,
50:14imagine now that you're deeply
50:16depressed. Yeah. Imagine that. Now, in
50:19this moment, imagine that you're deeply
50:20You're still having this conversation,
50:22but underneath you're feeling wretched
50:23and depressed and Yeah. Now do the same
50:26experiment. Tell us about the awareness
50:30with which your deep depression is
50:32known.
50:33>> I'm blending
50:35the wretchedness with the awareness.
50:39>> That's the primary methodology of the
50:43nondual understanding. Unblend your
50:47being from the content of your
50:49experience. For the vast majority of us,
50:52for the vast majority of time, our being
50:55or the experience of being aware or
50:57consciousness is completely blended with
51:00experience. So we don't know ourselves
51:04as we essentially are. We don't know the
51:06pure I am with its inherent peace and
51:09fullness. We know I am lonely. I am
51:13depressed. I am agitated, etc., etc. But
51:17if you unblend your experience just by
51:20going back to the simple awareness of
51:23being, you recognize that your being is
51:26is whole, unblenmished, unheard,
51:30untarnished, that there's a place in you
51:33that has never been traumatized by
51:35anything that has ever happened to you.
51:38So this recognition of the nature of
51:41your being, it's the ultimate healing.
51:43Not the healing that takes place in 20
51:45years time after 20 years of therapy.
51:47I'm not saying that's not valid. It's
51:49valid and necessary. But the ultimate
51:51healing is to recognize that your being
51:53now is whole, is perfect, is is at
51:57peace. It's never been hurt by
52:00experience, just like a a screen is
52:01never hurt by the movie. What I'm struck
52:04by, and this is like one of, you know,
52:06Jonathan and my favorite games, one of
52:09our favorite games in the hundreds of
52:11episodes that we have done here over the
52:13years that we've been sitting talking to
52:15people is there are a there are a few
52:19messages that are universal whether
52:22you're speaking to philosophers,
52:24theoretical physicists, healers,
52:27internal family systems folks, people
52:30like Pete Holmes who have done the work
52:32on themselves. There are a few very,
52:35very basic universal messages and
52:38everybody's going to get them different
52:39ways. Some people are going to go to
52:41South America and they're going to have
52:42an Iawaska experience and some people
52:45are going to do, you know, uh, classic
52:47psychoanalysis with a therapist who's
52:49also doing Yiani and shadow work and
52:52some people are going to be in their
52:53pottery studio and they're going to
52:56study and learn. Like, I don't know how
52:59many ways, you know, Jonathan and I can
53:01bring this information to. I love it
53:02because everyone needs to hear it a
53:04different way, but how many times has my
53:06therapist told me unblend from that hurt
53:10part. Unblend. Like this is the work
53:13that you do.
53:15>> Well, Jonathan, you said something very
53:17interesting. I think after the first
53:19experiment I did with my you said
53:21something like that's the most direct
53:23way. That's the I think you said it's
53:25the fastest way that I've ever seen
53:28anyone.
53:29If I were to give what I do a name, it
53:32would be the direct path. It's not a
53:35term that I coined. And the the direct
53:37path means exactly what you referred to,
53:39Jonathan, just that it's you go directly
53:43from whatever you're experiencing
53:45straight back to your being.
53:48whereas um and I can do that with with
53:51you two because I know that you've not
53:54only are you you know knowledgeable and
53:56experienced and you've explored these
53:57matters you you can't do that with
54:00everyone that and and that's why the the
54:02traditions have elaborated so many
54:04methods for some people um for instance
54:07their their trauma there their shame
54:11their fear their sorrow is so intense
54:14that they just can't get through it they
54:16can't turn away from it and go all the
54:19way back to their being. And therefore,
54:20the traditions elaborate more
54:23progressive paths that may involve
54:25exploring your your your your trauma,
54:27your your your shame, your guilt and to
54:30to to soften up the mind, so to speak,
54:34before it's ready to go directly back to
54:37being.
54:38>> The path that you provided was extremely
54:40direct. And what I was struck by was,
54:43you know, mim who will say often her
54:46mind is so busy often with song lyrics
54:49and um endless ideas.
54:53For her to say that it was quiet is
54:55actually more striking than I think our
54:58reflection and our response to the
55:00exercise may have indicated initially.
55:02Like I I do I do want to put a really,
55:05you know, emphasize this. It's very rare
55:08that she ever says something as quiet.
55:10That's a beautiful observation. When
55:13when I asked you the question my go back
55:17to your being and and tell us about it.
55:20I didn't really want you to tell us
55:22about it. But I wanted you to go there.
55:25To ask you to tell me about it means
55:27that you have to experience it. If I
55:29were to ask you now, tell me about the
55:32tingling sensation at the soles of your
55:34feet, you would go to that experience.
55:38You wouldn't think about dinner last
55:39night. You'd go to that experience. I
55:42wanted you to go to the experience of
55:44being and taste it. And it was
55:47beautiful. I I didn't comment on it, but
55:50you paused. I asked the question. You
55:52paused.
55:54And then you said, "It's quiet. It's in
55:57that pause. You had turned your
56:00attention away from the content of your
56:03experience. You were not thinking about
56:04your thoughts, your feelings, the
56:06interviewer. You just went back to your
56:08being and you tasted it, you recognized
56:10it and you came back. It's peaceful.
56:13That's the that's the essence of
56:15meditation.
56:16>> If you had asked me to do this 5 years
56:19ago, 10 years ago, I don't know that I
56:21would have the slightest. I'm one of
56:23those people, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm
56:26not a slow learner. I'm a fast
56:27forgetter, you know. I'm one of those
56:30people like and that's just the way God
56:33made me. You know, I need this
56:35information a lot of ways. I need to
56:37come at it, you know, from every neuron,
56:39right? So, you know, I I've had a few
56:43instances of this and, you know, I hate
56:46to tell people there's no quick way to
56:48this. For some people, there is. You
56:49know, we spoke to Thomas Campbell's a
56:51great example. the first time he tried
56:53transcendental meditation, he was
56:54skyrocketed into the universe and lost
56:57time, lost space, you know, like all
56:59this amazing stuff. That's not my
57:00experience. But when I was practicing
57:04condundalini yoga, you know, there's a
57:07lot of conversation about ways to get in
57:09touch with this part. And I'm not saying
57:11that's the only way. People do it a
57:12million different ways. But for me, I I
57:15remember I was in my class and there's
57:19all these meditations that they do
57:20throughout and it's a very very serious
57:23practitioner, the woman who's our, you
57:25know, our teacher. I don't know what it
57:27was on this particular day when we were
57:30doing this meditation. It was like I
57:32could hear the inside of my brain.
57:34That's the best way to describe it. It's
57:36like everything went quiet. It was like
57:38I went underwater. That's the best way
57:40to describe it. or like if you all of a
57:42sudden put in earplugs and it was like
57:45and I it was like I could hear silence
57:48like the sounds of silence and I of
57:50course was thinking which I know is a
57:52different place to be but there was this
57:55moment where there was no thought and it
57:58was just like it was I don't want to say
58:00it was like nothing it was like
58:01everything you know like that's the best
58:03way to describe it that place is a place
58:07I keep trying to get back to right it's
58:10the place I keep trying to return to and
58:12I do believe and this is from a lot of
58:14years of you know a lot of anguish and
58:18yes a lot of complexity some of us have
58:21more impediments than others to to get
58:24to that place so that's what I keep
58:26trying to you know get to
58:29>> I think that it is as a result of all
58:31this preliminary work that you have done
58:34that enabled you when I asked you the
58:37question what is the nature of your
58:39being now to pause
58:41and say it's quiet now having in other
58:43words
58:44>> in that moment you went directly back to
58:47your true nature you didn't go via
58:49kundalini yoga or v mantra meditation or
58:51via via
58:52>> so now all all you need to do in future
58:55is instead of
58:56>> having me ask yourself the question you
58:58can just pause and you can ask yourself
59:00what is the nature of the awareness
59:03with which I am aware of my current
59:05experience whether you're depressed or
59:08agitated or lonely or excited or sick or
59:11you just but what is the nature of the
59:13awareness with which I know this
59:15experience and that will take you
59:18straight back and all all that you need
59:21to do um is stay there rather than
59:24answering the question and then
59:26describing it just stay there just stay
59:28there for a few minutes and then go back
59:30out into your life and every time you go
59:32back there it gets easier to begin with
59:35your being is just a place you visit in
59:38yourself in between all the other
59:39experienc And then you stay there for 10
59:40seconds, you go straight back to it. But
59:42each time you go back to your being, the
59:45capacity that your ex objective
59:49experience has to take you away from
59:52your being weakens
59:54and it gets easier and easy to go back
59:56and easier and easy to stay there until
59:58in time you begin to feel that you live
1:00:01there. You don't just visit it from time
1:00:04to time. It's like this is who I am.
1:00:07It's always pe I can live there. I can
1:00:09still go out into the world, but I don't
1:00:11leave home. I I I stay in my being.
1:00:15>> Is this the answer to everything that
1:00:17ails us?
1:00:18>> It's an answer to the existential sense
1:00:21of lack
1:00:24and the conflict that dominates most
1:00:27people's lives. Yes, it it's not an
1:00:31answer to um earthquakes. So not
1:00:35everything
1:00:36but in terms of our personal psychology
1:00:40and um relationships, conflict in
1:00:44relationships, individuals, communities,
1:00:46nations. Yes. Bla1 Pascal, the um French
1:00:50mathematician
1:00:52um
1:00:54three or 4 hundred years ago, he he said
1:00:56all of humanity's pro I'm sure you know
1:00:58this all all of humanity's problems can
1:01:00be traced back to the fact that a person
1:01:02cannot sit alone in their room without
1:01:05doing anything by which of course he
1:01:08included thinking. In other words, they
1:01:09can't go back to their being for five
1:01:11minutes and stay there. All of
1:01:13humanity's problems come from that. So
1:01:16Jonathan I I would answer I would say
1:01:18yes.
1:01:20>> Thinking about us being able to go home
1:01:22into our selves into our being and my
1:01:26sister actually and I uh we have this
1:01:28saying there you know we'll
1:01:31chat and be like what's going on? How
1:01:33have you been? And sometimes it's like,
1:01:36oh, too much doing, not enough being as
1:01:40the reason why we're out of balance or
1:01:43feeling shitty or, you know, like I I
1:01:45don't think people have a being
1:01:46practice, right? We don't have the
1:01:49practice of how much being have I done
1:01:51in my day, in my week, a as a health
1:01:55metric. But what does it look like in
1:01:57couples? What does it look like when two
1:02:01people are in an argument at each other
1:02:04to return to being before you continue
1:02:07interacting?
1:02:08>> You're completely lost in your thoughts
1:02:10and feelings and you're reacting from
1:02:13your thoughts and feelings. You're
1:02:14upset. You're hurt. You're irritated.
1:02:16You're angry. And and we we all know
1:02:18what that feels like. You're you're
1:02:21responding to your partner from that
1:02:25from that place in yourself. Now imagine
1:02:28it in that argument if you were able to
1:02:32take a step back from your thoughts and
1:02:34feelings to the experience of being
1:02:38where where it's peaceful. There's no
1:02:40reactivity there. There's no resentment
1:02:42there. There's no hurt there. You able
1:02:44to go back there and then from that
1:02:47place you were able to stand as that
1:02:51and then continue the conversation. it
1:02:54would have a profound effect on the
1:02:57quality of your response. That's one
1:03:00thing.
1:03:01The second thing, you remember my
1:03:04initial um provisional definition of
1:03:07non-duality. Peace and happiness are the
1:03:09nature of your being. That's the first
1:03:11thing. Secondly, you share your being
1:03:13with everyone and everything. There's
1:03:14only one being. Now, there's only one
1:03:17being. Then if you I know we all
1:03:20understand this but if you really feel
1:03:22that that that your partner is is not
1:03:26another being like you your partner's
1:03:29being is your being that the space in
1:03:33your room in LA and the space in my room
1:03:36in the UK it's the same space they're
1:03:39not two individual spaces there's only
1:03:42one vast space in the universe seemingly
1:03:45separated by every building into
1:03:47numerous spaces. But there aren't
1:03:50numerous spaces in the universe. There's
1:03:52one space. Likewise, there's one
1:03:54infinite being in religious language.
1:03:56God's being seemingly bounded by thought
1:04:00and perception seeming to appear as an
1:04:02individual being but in reality the same
1:04:05being. Now, if you if you not only
1:04:07understand that, but feel that and and
1:04:10and that recognition of our shared being
1:04:12is what we commonly call love. That's
1:04:14what love is. the felt recognition that
1:04:16we are one, that we share our being. If
1:04:18you feel if you're having a an argument
1:04:21with your with your intimate companion,
1:04:23and yet you feel that their being is
1:04:26your being. In other words, you are
1:04:28them. They are you.
1:04:31Again, h how will that
1:04:34um affect the the the both the quality
1:04:37and the content of your conversation?
1:04:40>> From my experience, it will change the
1:04:43tenor. It will change the tone. It will
1:04:45change how quickly I respond. It will
1:04:47change how much I hear their perspective
1:04:50or not. Where I get a little tripped up
1:04:54and where I think, you know, psychology
1:04:56and and we'll call it a spiritual
1:04:59perspective of interconnectedness
1:05:02maybe start to overlap is like, well, do
1:05:04I have to do what they want? What if
1:05:06their emotions are not, you know, it's
1:05:09like when it gets into the practical
1:05:11like, do I really want to go to this
1:05:12event or actually I don't and then
1:05:14they're going to be upset and how do you
1:05:16navigate hurt feelings on that level?
1:05:18Also,
1:05:19>> I don't mean to imply that that you will
1:05:22therefore agree on everything that there
1:05:24there will still be disagreements
1:05:25because disagreements take place at the
1:05:27level of the mind. Disagreements are
1:05:29always between mind. Two beings never
1:05:31disagree. The being never disagrees with
1:05:33with with anything. It's two minds that
1:05:35disagree and all of our minds are
1:05:37conditioned and limited. So there will
1:05:39inevitably be um disagreements between
1:05:43minds. But if those ne disagreements are
1:05:46negotiated
1:05:47from a felt sense of of shared being,
1:05:51then the the the disagreement doesn't
1:05:53then lead to conflict, animosity and and
1:05:57and so on
1:05:58>> and potentially a lot less hurt feelings
1:06:00if someone decides wait I just I'm not
1:06:02available or it it becomes less of a
1:06:05narrative.
1:06:05>> Extend this between waring nations. You
1:06:09know, you don't [clears throat] have to
1:06:10look far at the the wars that are
1:06:12happening in the world. Imagine if the
1:06:14perpetrators of these wars knew, not
1:06:18just knew, but felt that they shared
1:06:20their being, that they were one, that
1:06:23they shared their being with the people
1:06:24that they were attacking, it it would be
1:06:28impossible. So it this would have a
1:06:31profound effect not just individually,
1:06:33but but in society in general. I if this
1:06:36understanding the unity of being was
1:06:39became mainstream.
1:06:41>> Jonathan and I had an incident that I'll
1:06:43be very vague about, but uh Jonathan had
1:06:46his feelings hurt this weekend.
1:06:49Something occurred in me
1:06:52that was kind of beyond the content. And
1:06:56I don't know if it was a moment of
1:06:57enlightenment,
1:06:59but when I sort of tuned in, all I felt
1:07:04was that this was a hurt person. And I
1:07:07don't know that I was the hurt. Someone
1:07:09hurt this person, right? But that's what
1:07:11I sort of tapped into. And I'm not
1:07:14saying I do this perfect by no means.
1:07:17But it was interesting that sometimes
1:07:21when someone is hurt, a connection point
1:07:24can just be that, right? Just
1:07:27recognizing
1:07:28that someone is hurt without trying to
1:07:30fix it or explain it or defend it,
1:07:34right? I mean, am I getting close to
1:07:36what it looks like to cooperate? If you
1:07:38have two people who are in that state, I
1:07:41think that's where it can feel
1:07:43impossible because no one has a touch
1:07:45point, right? Yes, absolutely. So one
1:07:48person is hurt and then the the second
1:07:51person you described they they they
1:07:54listen they're open that they they they
1:07:57don't they don't attack they don't
1:07:59defend they in other words the person
1:08:01who is listening allowing
1:08:05they are they are standing
1:08:08in their being they're not standing in
1:08:10their reactive mind they've taken a step
1:08:13back so the person who is non-reactive
1:08:17open, understanding, tolerant,
1:08:21considerate, gentle, kind. They they are
1:08:24modeling
1:08:26being by standing in the face of the
1:08:29other person's hurt. and and
1:08:33in a way that that is the that's the
1:08:36most healing
1:08:38position you can take because you're
1:08:41modeling for the other person
1:08:44the the place that they can go to in
1:08:47themselves. For instance, Jonathan, you
1:08:49were you were hurt. It was obviously not
1:08:51not your your body. It was your your
1:08:52psychological self. There was a self in
1:08:55you. When if you when you felt inside
1:08:57you, you felt I am hurt.
1:09:01But now if you had asked yourself, but
1:09:04who am I deeply in this moment? Who am I
1:09:07really? I'm hurt is what I feel, not
1:09:12what I am. If hurt was what you are,
1:09:15then you would always be hurting. But
1:09:18but hurt is something you experience
1:09:20from time to time. But if you had been
1:09:22able to unblend yourself from your hurt,
1:09:25just take one small step back
1:09:29that that my being lies behind my head,
1:09:31that the hurt is this the the movie on
1:09:33the screen. I am the screen. It doesn't
1:09:36mean that the hurt feeling would not
1:09:37continue, but you'd no longer be feeding
1:09:40it with your belief that it's who you
1:09:43are. And without that support, it would
1:09:45gradually diminish. I wonder what the
1:09:48balance between, you know, the idea that
1:09:50one should feel the feeling, allow it to
1:09:53dissipate verse step back slightly and
1:09:58do that process.
1:09:59>> To feel the feeling, you have to stand
1:10:02as the witness of it.
1:10:04>> Someone says to you, you're you're
1:10:06feeling you're feeling depressed and
1:10:08they say to you, well, just feel the
1:10:10full feel that feeling. Be aware of that
1:10:12feeling fully. that places you that that
1:10:16that suggestion places you in the
1:10:18position of the witness be aware of your
1:10:21depression. So in a way just that that
1:10:25um just that statement invites you to
1:10:28take a step back and and be the space
1:10:31for your feeling but know that you are
1:10:33the space and and just like physical
1:10:37space nothing that takes place in
1:10:39physical space can can hurt it. It's the
1:10:41same with your being. Nothing that takes
1:10:42place in your experience can hurt the
1:10:46the being or the awareness within which
1:10:48that experience takes place. And by
1:10:50saying feel the experience, what what
1:10:53what what you're really being asked to
1:10:55do is be the allowing of the experience.
1:10:59Stand as that allowing openness that
1:11:02that allows the experience to arise. But
1:11:05you aren't that experience. You're the
1:11:07space in which it arises.
1:11:09Do you think what you're describing
1:11:11being in in this space being the witness
1:11:15at this level having an awareness of our
1:11:17being is this what you believe the word
1:11:20enlightenment means?
1:11:22>> The the way I would define enlightenment
1:11:24would be um the recognition of the
1:11:27nature of being.
1:11:29So there there are two steps. There's
1:11:31one step is to to
1:11:35unblend yourself from experience. Go go
1:11:38go go go back to the experience of being
1:11:40or being aware. That's the first step to
1:11:42recognize I am fundamentally awareness.
1:11:46I'm not what I am aware of. That's the
1:11:48first step. That's not yet what is
1:11:51traditionally called enlightenment. But
1:11:52it's a it's one step on the way. The
1:11:55next step is to recognize the nature
1:11:59of the awareness that I am. It's
1:12:01inherently fulfilled.
1:12:03It's peaceful.
1:12:06It's ever present. It has no limit. So
1:12:09enlightenment will be the recognition of
1:12:11the nature of being.
1:12:13>> So first is unblending from thoughts,
1:12:16feelings.
1:12:17>> Yeah. Take a step back from the content
1:12:19of your experience. Recognize yourself
1:12:21as the witness of that experience. But
1:12:23that w that recognizing yourself as the
1:12:26knower or the witness is not yet what is
1:12:29traditionally called enlightenment.
1:12:31>> Wait, does that have to be positive?
1:12:33Because enlightenment you think like oh
1:12:35enlightenment is is I mean I don't mean
1:12:37to like apply good and bad and positive
1:12:40and negative to this but most of us
1:12:41think of enlightenment as a a state of
1:12:44bliss. So is it a positive recognition
1:12:47or not necessarily?
1:12:48>> Strictly speaking it's neither positive
1:12:50nor negative but as a it's legitimate to
1:12:54say it's positive with reference to the
1:12:57previous negative content of your
1:12:59experience.
1:13:01But st really the the idea that
1:13:03enlightenment is positive is a thorn
1:13:06that is used to remove the thorn of your
1:13:08previous negative experience when it's
1:13:10done that both thorns should be thrown
1:13:12away. It's neither positive nor
1:13:14negative. Also because I'm auditioning
1:13:16for Rupert's assistant. If peace and
1:13:19happiness are the nature of our being
1:13:21and we are recognizing the nature of our
1:13:23being as that as you did when you went
1:13:27to being aware at the start of this uh
1:13:30exercise then naturally that has a lot
1:13:34of positivity for a lack of you know not
1:13:38to not to put a label on it. Yes,
1:13:40absolutely. That in fact that was what I
1:13:41was going to add that we could say
1:13:43enlightenment is the recognition of the
1:13:45nature of our being and um
1:13:50living that recognition to the best of
1:13:52our ability in our life. So it would
1:13:56include the expression of that
1:13:57understanding in it in our life. So it's
1:14:01not just an inner experience, it it it's
1:14:03a lived experience. Yes. There's a lot
1:14:06of I think misnomer about the nature of
1:14:08enlightenment because we it's sold as
1:14:12you are now glowing and sort of you
1:14:14don't walk anymore. You generally hover
1:14:16around the world which seems pretty cool
1:14:20and and then it's also described as
1:14:22there is no such thing as enlightenment.
1:14:24There are only moments of enlightenment
1:14:27that you can then try and stitch
1:14:29together more frequently.
1:14:30>> Jonathan, I couldn't agree with you
1:14:32more. I think the word enlightenment is
1:14:33one of the most if not the most
1:14:35misunderstood word in the entire
1:14:38spiritual literature and has caused
1:14:41people to travel um not only
1:14:45intellectually but physically around the
1:14:47world in search of some exotic
1:14:51experience. Enlightenment is not an
1:14:54experience. It's not an exotic
1:14:55experience. It's not an experience at
1:14:57all. It's a recognition of the nature of
1:15:00that which experiences. It has nothing
1:15:03to do with what you are experiencing.
1:15:06So it's not a blissful experience.
1:15:09It's it's a recognition of the nature of
1:15:11that which experiences.
1:15:14So I I agree that and and by the way I I
1:15:17fell into this trap for years. I'm not
1:15:20immune to this misunderstanding. I had
1:15:22this misunderstanding for years that
1:15:24enlightenment is some marvelous
1:15:26extraordinary experience that if I try
1:15:30hard enough or practice long enough
1:15:32maybe in 20 or 30 years time I will have
1:15:34this
1:15:36marvelous experience and if I haven't
1:15:38had this marvelous experience, it means
1:15:40I'm I'm ignorant. I don't know my own
1:15:43being.
1:15:43>> You're not trying hard enough.
1:15:45>> There's a story from the Zen um
1:15:47tradition. I think it was um Shinrio
1:15:51Suzuki, a Zen teacher. Um
1:15:55somebody asked him in one of his
1:15:56meetings, "Why do you never talk about
1:15:58your enlightenment experience?"
1:16:00And apparently his wife who was sitting
1:16:02at the back of the hall stood up and
1:16:04said, "Because he never had one."
1:16:06>> It's always the wife.
1:16:07>> Oh, it's always the wife. Absolutely.
1:16:09[laughter]
1:16:10We hear a lot of people who have had
1:16:12these miraculous awakenings from being a
1:16:16pure materialist to sitting down and
1:16:18doing transcendental meditation and
1:16:20having you know an internal
1:16:24um journey that revealed the nature of
1:16:27reality. or someone who started
1:16:29meditating and after a few sessions got
1:16:32hit with this sense of knowing that the
1:16:35universe is fully interconnected and and
1:16:38just feeling all the bliss and like
1:16:39their brain or wherever hormones are
1:16:43coming from release everything and all
1:16:45of a sudden they're like on the best
1:16:47drugs in the in the world
1:16:49>> and it lasts. I think that's I think
1:16:51that's what's interesting.
1:16:52>> Yes. Some people it lasts and other
1:16:53people they have this like unbelievable
1:16:58moment and then realize that reality is
1:17:01not what they seem and their life
1:17:03changes and then they they're not they
1:17:05don't necessarily live in that state
1:17:07always but yeah I'm curious how how you
1:17:10reconcile that with slow moments of
1:17:12realization is just everyone on their
1:17:14own path
1:17:15>> Jonathan I think what you're describing
1:17:16is not enlightenment it's the effects
1:17:20that enlightenment may have on a
1:17:23person's mind
1:17:25so enlighten Enment is is a the
1:17:29recognition of the nature of being and
1:17:31it it's it's not an experience let alone
1:17:34an exotic experience. Now that that
1:17:36recognition
1:17:38it can happen very quietly.
1:17:41There's just this recognition. Then your
1:17:42mind comes back. You may not even know
1:17:46the when I say you, the mind may not
1:17:48even know that
1:17:51it has been interrupted by this plunge
1:17:55into being. The mind might just carry
1:17:57on, but it it will be affected
1:18:01by this brief recognition of your your
1:18:05true nature. And the more and more of
1:18:08these recognitions you have, the more
1:18:10and more the mind will gradually be
1:18:12impacted by it. So in this case, I'm
1:18:15describing one one end of the extreme.
1:18:17The mind may barely register that
1:18:20anything has happened. On the other end
1:18:22of the extreme, you could have this rec
1:18:25this glimpse of your true nature, this
1:18:27recognition. And that recognition may
1:18:29have such a powerful effect on your mind
1:18:32and your body that there's this terrific
1:18:35expansion of the mind or and or a a
1:18:40great relaxation of the body which we as
1:18:43we all know when the body relaxes it
1:18:45often we often cry or laugh. That's an
1:18:48expression of relaxation. So this the
1:18:51the effect the after effect of this
1:18:54transparent recognition of your true
1:18:57nature can in some cases have this
1:19:00terrific ex effect on the mind andor the
1:19:03body. Uh but that would be the after
1:19:06effect in the mind and the body of this
1:19:09transparent recognition of your true
1:19:11nature. It's not the recognition itself.
1:19:13If we explore the interconnected nature
1:19:16of individuals and and all things, what
1:19:20do you make of synchronicity and you
1:19:23know is there something about becoming
1:19:26more aware of this interconnection?
1:19:28Meaning do as we unblend do we become
1:19:32more aware of it? mim um in the last I
1:19:35think it was yesterday she said to me in
1:19:37the last three days three different
1:19:40times I think about someone and and they
1:19:44either call or I call them and they're
1:19:46like I can't believe I'm thinking about
1:19:47you now this is obviously not a double
1:19:49blind experiment but it seems like there
1:19:51is a state that we can achieve a more
1:19:55being state you know people call it well
1:19:58you're you're going against you know the
1:20:00flow of life and there seems to be
1:20:03something where we become more aware of
1:20:05the interconnected nature of everything.
1:20:07>> Yes. Under the prevailing materialist
1:20:10paradigm, these kinds of um events
1:20:13shouldn't happen or if they did, they
1:20:15they would be explained by coincidence
1:20:17alone, but they happen far too often to
1:20:21be explained by coincidence. And they
1:20:23can be explained very very easily under
1:20:25the under the the consciousness only
1:20:28model. that the this new paradigm that
1:20:31places consciousness as as fundamental.
1:20:34Namely, that the mind that we are on the
1:20:36inside
1:20:38and the matter that the world appears to
1:20:40be made out of on the outside are in
1:20:43fact two different aspects of the same
1:20:46reality. Just like when you fall asleep
1:20:49and you dream that you're on a Caribbean
1:20:51beach, you you view the Caribbean beach
1:20:55from the localization of the person you
1:20:57seem to be on the Caribbean beach. And
1:20:59that person's experience seems to be
1:21:00divided into mind on the inside and
1:21:03matter on the outside. But when you wake
1:21:05up, you realize that there weren't these
1:21:08two separate realities, mind to matter.
1:21:11It was all the activity of the dreamer's
1:21:13mind. So if we consider that the world
1:21:16as as I would suggest the world that
1:21:19consciousness is the ultimate reality of
1:21:21the universe and that we are all
1:21:23localized perspectives within
1:21:26consciousness and that we look out
1:21:28through our perceiving faculties at what
1:21:30is in fact the activity of consciousness
1:21:33but it looks like a physical world only
1:21:36because we see it through the lens of
1:21:37perception. In which case what the world
1:21:40is on the outside and what we are on the
1:21:43inside are the same system. So we should
1:21:46expect that there would be a a a very
1:21:50close correspondence between what appear
1:21:52to be physical events in the world and
1:21:56our own internal psychological or
1:21:59emotional life because they are two
1:22:01aspects of the same system. And this
1:22:03would explain synchronicity. you have a
1:22:05a thought about something which is a
1:22:08it's a mentation. It's a mental event
1:22:11and it a there's a physical it
1:22:14corresponds to something physical in the
1:22:16world because the world is not really
1:22:18physical. It only looks physical because
1:22:20we through view it through the lens of
1:22:22perception. I'm not saying that you're a
1:22:24far out person, but for me in my head,
1:22:26this feels like a very far out idea
1:22:29because these three synchronous things
1:22:32that happened happened after I had some
1:22:36sort of shift in a lot of there's a lot
1:22:40of other pieces to this. It's not
1:22:41important for us to talk about, but
1:22:43something happened where I felt a shift
1:22:47and then this happened that like two
1:22:49days later. So I'm trying to think like
1:22:52is it possible that whatever shift had
1:22:54happened that made me feel more
1:22:57connected, coherent, whatever it is that
1:23:00that opened me up to seeing or being
1:23:05part of these synchronous moments. I
1:23:07guess my question being are people who
1:23:10are tapping into this more likely to
1:23:12experience these moments of connection
1:23:15and synchrony? certainly more likely to
1:23:17notice them, but I think also more
1:23:20likely to experience them. Yes. Can we
1:23:22do another experiment? Well, can I ask
1:23:23you another question?
1:23:24>> Yeah, it's kind of stressing me out
1:23:26because I want to get it right, but yes,
1:23:28go ahead.
1:23:29>> So, just take your your current
1:23:30experience.
1:23:32Yeah. This conversation, your thoughts,
1:23:34feelings, sensations, perceptions, me.
1:23:37Is there anything to your current
1:23:40experience other than the knowing of it?
1:23:43This one is disturbing because I want to
1:23:47say of course there is like I make an
1:23:49imprint in this world. I'm moving
1:23:52around. I put the key in the car. But I
1:23:55think the answer is no. Which begs the
1:23:58question, how do I know any of this is
1:24:02real?
1:24:02>> You're right that there's nothing to
1:24:06your current experience other than the
1:24:07knowing of it. It's very easy to check
1:24:09that if you were to remove knowing from
1:24:12your current experience, what would
1:24:14remain? I
1:24:15>> I would not have an experience.
1:24:18>> You you would not have an experience.
1:24:19Yeah. That that you can't even say
1:24:21there'd be nothing because you wouldn't
1:24:22be there to be aware of nothing.
1:24:24>> No, it would be the absence of anything.
1:24:27>> Have you ever had an experience of
1:24:30anything other than the knowing of
1:24:32experience?
1:24:33>> No. Is there anything to any experience
1:24:36other than the knowing of it?
1:24:38>> No.
1:24:39>> How do we know that there is anything
1:24:42other than knowing
1:24:44if you admit from your own experience
1:24:47that knowing is all you ever experience?
1:24:51How do we know that there is anything
1:24:53other than knowing?
1:24:55>> We don't.
1:24:56>> We don't. So, it's not I'm not the one
1:24:59that's far out.
1:25:00>> [laughter]
1:25:00>> The pe the people who are far out are
1:25:03the people who and and this is our world
1:25:06culture are the people who believe that
1:25:09there is something other than knowing
1:25:11called matter because matter is
1:25:15considered to be that which exists
1:25:17outside consciousness or outside
1:25:19knowing.
1:25:20Not only do they believe that matter is
1:25:23the ultimate reality, but they then
1:25:26believe that knowing or consciousness is
1:25:29generated by matter.
1:25:34That is far out. It's madness. It's like
1:25:37believing that waves generate oceans and
1:25:40movies generate screens. And yet our
1:25:42culture is founded on that single idea.
1:25:46And then look at what is taking place in
1:25:49the world. Could it be that this the the
1:25:52madness of our world, the extent of the
1:25:55of the of the sorrow and the conflict is
1:25:59a direct consequence of this mistaken
1:26:02view of reality that we have the
1:26:04paradigm of separation. How many people
1:26:07have I met in my life or how many people
1:26:09have all of us met who say I know the
1:26:13truth with a capital T
1:26:16and it usually is it's a belief system
1:26:18or it's a religion or it's you know a
1:26:21set of whatever that they believe you
1:26:24should believe in meaning I mean it's
1:26:27kind of the foundation of a lot of
1:26:28religious you know kind of misdirection
1:26:33but that there are those like to me
1:26:35Those people are the same far out as
1:26:38materialists at this point, right? For
1:26:40you to suppose that you found the one
1:26:43God that knows what I should eat, drink,
1:26:46cover my head with, you know, all of
1:26:48that, that's far out.
1:26:50>> It's just a refinement of materialism.
1:26:52It's materialism with a religious name.
1:26:55>> And the consequences a as you as you
1:26:58said at the beginning of the
1:26:59conversation, that they're even worse
1:27:00than regular materialism. But but it's
1:27:03it's basically the same belief.
1:27:05>> What happens to our knowing when our
1:27:07physical bodies no longer exist? Because
1:27:10it's hard to know what happens to our
1:27:12knowing.
1:27:13>> I would suggest that the same thing
1:27:15happens to knowing when your physical
1:27:16bodies exist as will happen to the space
1:27:19in your room when your house is one day
1:27:21demolished.
1:27:25>> It just goes back into the collective
1:27:27space.
1:27:28>> It doesn't even go back. It was never it
1:27:31was never a separate space to begin
1:27:32with. It was always only the vast space
1:27:34of the universe. It doesn't go anywhere.
1:27:37It was never limited in the first place.
1:27:39It assumed an apparent and temporary
1:27:42limitation. When that limitation was
1:27:45removed, it was just revealed as it
1:27:47eternally is. This I think the same will
1:27:50happen with your being. Your being will
1:27:52not be liberated from its its
1:27:55limitations. I I would suggest your
1:27:57being, our being, everyone's being is
1:27:59already God's infinite being temporarily
1:28:02clothed in human experience and seeming
1:28:05as a result to be a finite person.
1:28:07>> Do you think that character of being
1:28:10evolves in some way, learns, grows, or
1:28:13do you think it's simply just the
1:28:15nature? It just exists and and doesn't
1:28:18change. No, I think the experience of
1:28:21being you have the moment you're born
1:28:24and the experience of being you have on
1:28:26your deathbed is the same experience.
1:28:30The screen at the beginning of the movie
1:28:32and the screen at the end of the movie,
1:28:34no change in it. It doesn't evolve. The
1:28:37content of the movie evolves, but the
1:28:39screen doesn't. It's the same.
1:28:40Consciousness doesn't evolve.
1:28:42>> Consciousness does not evolve. It's the
1:28:44It's the same consciousness.
1:28:47>> The mind evolves.
1:28:50mind which is the activity of
1:28:51consciousness, thoughts and perceptions,
1:28:53emotions, the mind evolves, grows,
1:28:56changes and so on. But the the
1:28:58consciousness that is the fundamental
1:29:00nature of the mind doesn't evolve. The
1:29:03awareness with which the Buddha knew his
1:29:06experience
1:29:08is in exactly the same condition as the
1:29:11awareness with which you and I know our
1:29:13experience is no change. And the idea of
1:29:16the nature of the soul as this
1:29:19continually reincarnating
1:29:22>> that the soul is is the the the
1:29:24religious name for the mind. The mind in
1:29:26the in in the broader aspect the
1:29:28individual mind and and yes the
1:29:30individual mind may well there's nothing
1:29:32to suggest that the individual mind
1:29:34doesn't continue
1:29:37when when when the body dies.
1:29:41Um, if if the mind were likened to a
1:29:44wave on the ocean, if an individual were
1:29:46likened to a wave on the ocean, just a a
1:29:49temporary localization of of the one
1:29:51ocean, when when that o when that wave
1:29:54dissipates, that would be the moment of
1:29:56death. The energies
1:30:00that constituted the wave while it
1:30:03existed, may not dissipate entirely into
1:30:07the ocean. They may spread out in the
1:30:09ocean as ripples and those ripples still
1:30:12have an energy to them. Those ripples
1:30:13ripples could gather together and form
1:30:16the basis of a new wave. So I I think
1:30:18there is legitimacy to the idea that the
1:30:20soul outlives the body and possibly
1:30:24reincarnates. I don't want to go and now
1:30:26we're in the realm of belief. I'm not
1:30:28talking from my experience. So I'm
1:30:31cautious to go there.
1:30:32>> I appreciate that. And and also people
1:30:34do try to reconcile
1:30:36some of the like backend you know uh
1:30:39call it the mechanisms of of
1:30:42our existence and how is it that people
1:30:45seem to contact those people who have
1:30:47passed you know what is the nature of
1:30:50you know a human being both you know and
1:30:53awareness and being aware of of
1:30:55ourselves is is an aspect and also you
1:30:59know the unique characteristics that
1:31:01make up us. You know, we we've spoken to
1:31:04people um a medical doctor who lost a a
1:31:07husband and then, you know, began to
1:31:09change her understanding of the nature
1:31:12of reality because had after death
1:31:16communication and interaction with this
1:31:18person and said, "Well, we can't only be
1:31:22matter if all of a sudden I am now
1:31:25connected to an energy that is I'm aware
1:31:28of this energy and communicating with
1:31:30this energy outside of physical form, it
1:31:33starts to break down the materialist
1:31:36point of view.
1:31:37>> During this conversation, I've tried to
1:31:38stay very close to some that only speak
1:31:41about what we can verify in our current
1:31:43direct experience. Of course, that leads
1:31:45me because knowing is the only substance
1:31:48that has ever been known or could ever
1:31:51be known. I think that's a legitimate
1:31:52reason for building a model of the
1:31:54universe ba cons based on the on the
1:31:57fact that knowing or consciousness is
1:31:58fundamental simply because it's our
1:32:00experience. you can then um extrapolate
1:32:03that model and use it to explain how
1:32:06someone might um come in contact with
1:32:08someone after they had died. And but
1:32:11there so the the model can explain that
1:32:13which of course materialism can't but
1:32:16but it's still going into the realm of
1:32:18speculation using the model to to to um
1:32:22explain phenomena um which I I I I do do
1:32:26sometimes. I'm willing to do that, but I
1:32:28try to be cautious about what I can say
1:32:32for certain from experience and what is
1:32:34then building a model of experience to
1:32:37explain something.
1:32:39>> Sam Harris um you know is often critical
1:32:43um of you know kind of coming up with an
1:32:46image of the external world based on
1:32:48one's internal experience, right?
1:32:50Especially very specific and you know
1:32:52kind of intimate experiences for
1:32:54meditation. we can't necessarily build a
1:32:56world on that. Um, but I think it's
1:32:58really it's very important and it's it's
1:33:00a line that we appreciate you towing
1:33:02with us because we think that there's,
1:33:04you know, been such a separation uh
1:33:06between sort of these schools of thought
1:33:08of people who say, I've experienced
1:33:10things that I know are true or can be
1:33:14verified in some cases and what does it
1:33:16say about the larger, you know, kind of
1:33:17nature of our experience? I had a really
1:33:19dumb like seven-year-old question like
1:33:21is there room for all the souls in the
1:33:24world? Like I need to stop thinking like
1:33:26that. Like I was thinking if everybody's
1:33:28consciousness is just like all it's just
1:33:30all floating around and everybody dies
1:33:33but nobody really dies. We're just all
1:33:35there in oneness like where do we go? Is
1:33:39there room? There's a line in the
1:33:41bagadget gita that which is never ceases
1:33:45to be and that which is not comes into
1:33:49existence.
1:33:51So that which is let's go back to
1:33:54religious language that we started with
1:33:56that which is is only God's infinite
1:33:58being eternal infinite self-aware being.
1:34:03And that's all there is. And it's
1:34:05continually modulating itself,
1:34:08localizing itself as a seemingly finite
1:34:11mind and then viewing itself through the
1:34:14perceiving faculties of that finite mind
1:34:17and and perceiving itself as the
1:34:19universe. There's no real physical
1:34:20universe there. It's just what God's
1:34:22infinite being looks like when it's
1:34:24mediated through the finite mind. So
1:34:26that nothing in in the ultimate analysis
1:34:30the very very highest teachings
1:34:32they say there's no creation. When you
1:34:35hear that it feels like a denial of our
1:34:39experience. It feels like a nihilistic
1:34:42um point of view. It's not that at all.
1:34:44In fact it's an upgrading
1:34:47of the world. It's not a denial of the
1:34:48world. What it's saying is that nothing
1:34:51nothing new comes into existence because
1:34:54anything that came new into existence
1:34:57would be something that was temporary
1:34:58and finite. All all there is is God's
1:35:01eternal being continually
1:35:04modifying itself in in all the forms of
1:35:08experience but never actually ceasing to
1:35:10be itself. So nothing is ever created
1:35:12and by the same uh token nothing is ever
1:35:15destroyed. You you never die. You were
1:35:18never born. You never really die because
1:35:21you never came into existence. The space
1:35:23in your room never came into existence
1:35:25as a separate space and therefore won't
1:35:28go out of existence as a separate space.
1:35:30It was just seemingly
1:35:32limited by the four walls. But it the
1:35:35separate space never came into existence
1:35:37and it won't die. It won't go away. It's
1:35:39the same with our being.
1:35:41>> There's nothing new under the sun. That
1:35:43is the Ecclesiastes version.
1:35:45>> Exactly. You see, it's there in the Old
1:35:47Testament. Correctly understood it. It's
1:35:50all there. Rupert, this has been
1:35:52unbelievable. Your writing is obviously
1:35:54incredible. You do amazing retreats, but
1:35:57if nothing else, podcasts exists so that
1:36:00people who never would know about you or
1:36:03who wouldn't have the the patience or
1:36:06the ability to kind of read your books.
1:36:09I'm so grateful that we get to have this
1:36:11format. I don't even credit you with the
1:36:14wisdom. It's the wisdom that has been
1:36:15passed down to you that you have this
1:36:17incredible ability to transmit. What
1:36:20would you like to leave us with for
1:36:22people who maybe are new to this kind of
1:36:24thinking? What what would be something
1:36:26that you'd like to leave us with as a
1:36:28sort of punctuation to this incredible
1:36:31conversation?
1:36:32>> I I would just suggest uh to everyone
1:36:36um
1:36:38from time to time, pause,
1:36:42take a step back from the content of
1:36:44your experience. Whatever the content
1:36:47is, your thoughts, your feelings, your
1:36:49relationships, your just pause, untangle
1:36:52yourself, take a step back. What is it
1:36:54that is aware of my experience?
1:36:57And that just that question takes you
1:36:59back from the content of your experience
1:37:02to your being, the fact of being or
1:37:04being aware. And just stay there. Just
1:37:07go back there. Just rest there. It's it
1:37:10you that's your home. You're always safe
1:37:12there. You're always at peace there.
1:37:15Rupert Spyra, thank you so much. It's
1:37:17been um such an honor to get to speak
1:37:18with you. We really really appreciate
1:37:20your time and um yeah, just thank you so
1:37:23much.
1:37:23>> Thank you very much for inviting me.
1:37:25It's been a it's been a pleasure and an
1:37:27honor to to to be with you both. Thank
1:37:29you both of you.
1:37:33>> I'm ready.
1:37:35What's the matter?
1:37:37>> My brain hurts. It's not Rupert Spy's
1:37:40fault. It's just like it's a lot.
1:37:43>> You know why? because you're holding on
1:37:45so tightly to your experience that
1:37:47you're not willing to look at the
1:37:49screen.
1:37:50>> I guess well it's not even about looking
1:37:52at the screen. I need to be one with the
1:37:55screen and know that the screen doesn't
1:37:57change no matter what the movie is. I
1:38:00was thinking about how similar this was
1:38:02to things that Michael Singer talks
1:38:04about, but in a different way, the
1:38:08notion that I am not whatever I'm
1:38:10experiencing. Sadness, hunger, other
1:38:13other emotions. Hunger is harder because
1:38:15you kind of want a sandwich, but you
1:38:18have to move through your emotions, but
1:38:20you don't have to be in them so much
1:38:22that they drown you. And how is it that
1:38:26by having a practice of coming home to
1:38:28ourselves even in a very simple way it
1:38:32can help us move through the experiences
1:38:36that we have and remember that part of
1:38:38us. I thought I thought about you and I
1:38:41thought about you know a lot of the
1:38:43somatic work you've done a lot of the
1:38:45trauma work you've done. This notion
1:38:47comes up across people especially who
1:38:49have complex PTSD that they're broken in
1:38:51some way that their experiences have
1:38:54marked them and even especially if
1:38:56they're young childhood experiences they
1:38:59get very um intertwined with them
1:39:02naturally and they can lose a
1:39:05familiarity or a remembering that there
1:39:07is an aspect of them even in this moment
1:39:11that exists outside of all of those
1:39:13experiences and that they can access it.
1:39:15Well, first of all, like I think what
1:39:16you just said is beautiful, but a little
1:39:19bit I feel like that's not the main
1:39:21message I got. The main message I got is
1:39:24we are all in a state of blending to to
1:39:28to one extent or another
1:39:30>> all the time.
1:39:31>> All the time. And everyone
1:39:35has a different path to ways to unblend
1:39:38that. There's not one path. There's not
1:39:40one answer. I'm sure that we could map
1:39:43out the kinds of people who do better
1:39:45with this than that. But you know what
1:39:47it's like? What I'm thinking is like f
1:39:49everyone who's ever said to me, I know
1:39:52what will work for you. Cuz guess what?
1:39:55You don't. It It's a process of figuring
1:39:58out what kind of person you are and what
1:40:02you need.
1:40:03>> Earlier in the episode, you experienced
1:40:06the true nature of reality. you had a
1:40:09glimpse of enlightenment and you come
1:40:11out 90 minutes later swinging your
1:40:14fists.
1:40:14>> You know why I think that is the
1:40:16difference, let's say, between your
1:40:17experience and mine because I think
1:40:19everything that you said is is true. I
1:40:22think that everything that Rupert said
1:40:23is also true. But I am struck by the
1:40:27ways that we're encouraged in our
1:40:29culture, in our family, in whatever
1:40:32language we speak to get there. And I
1:40:35think it's got a lot of variability. And
1:40:38you know, we've spoken to people, as you
1:40:40said, Dr. Terrace Wart, who saw her dead
1:40:43husband at the foot of her bed, not a
1:40:46vision, but like it was him, right?
1:40:48We've spoken with people who've died and
1:40:51seen things and experienced things and
1:40:52traveled places outside of the room that
1:40:55their body was in. We've spoken to a
1:40:57variety of people, right? We've spoken
1:40:59to people with all these different
1:41:00experiences. And for some people, being
1:41:03abducted by aliens might be the way to
1:41:06get in touch with this connection we
1:41:09have with all of humanity, God, and the
1:41:12universe. Who who am I to say that I
1:41:15know, right, that someone did or didn't
1:41:18have an experience? That's the
1:41:20experience this universe gave them. I
1:41:22can't explain it. I don't know. But the
1:41:25people who have died and come back seem
1:41:26to have the best idea. We chose this.
1:41:29We're here for Earth School. Classes in
1:41:32session.
1:41:32>> And also something made the song lyrics
1:41:34in your head go away. So that was
1:41:36amazing.
1:41:38>> That's true. So much more to talk about.
1:41:40Please join us over on Substack. Cannot
1:41:42wait for you all to hear um not only the
1:41:46the conversation over there, but um we
1:41:48we can't wait to hear from you uh what
1:41:50this episode resonated in you, what what
1:41:54this brought up for you. So please check
1:41:55us out on Substackdreown.substack.com.
1:41:58substack.com. And from our breakdown to
1:42:00the one we hope you never have, we'll
1:42:01see you next time.
1:42:01>> It's
1:42:03breakdown. She's going to break it down
1:42:05for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or
1:42:08two and now she's going to break down.
1:42:12So [music and singing] break down. She's
1:42:13going to break it down.

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