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0:01Stalin, Roosevelt, De Gaulle, Churchill
0:04. "Where have they gone, my dear lady,"
0:06Alberto Arbassino would say, the great
0:08leaders of yesteryear. Welcome back to
0:11Echo of History, and we have here a
0:13welcome guest and a face very well
0:15known to the viewers, to the public of
0:18Rai Storia, Professor Alessandro
0:20Barbero. Where have the great leaders
0:22of yesteryear gone, Alessandro?
0:24Well, and where have the great wars of
0:26yesteryear gone, and the great
0:27dictatorships, the great turning points
0:29? historical, the dream of achieving
0:32communism, racism, the conquest of the
0:34world. In my opinion, it is when
0:37history takes those directions that
0:39challenges arise, as we were hearing.
0:42And so, when there are great challenges
0:44, men also emerge who, perhaps
0:46surprisingly—because in the 30s
0:48nobody gave Churchill a chance anymore
0:50—perhaps surprisingly turn out to be
0:52truly great. We lament the absence of
0:56great leaders, the disappearance of
0:58great leaders, starting 50 years after
1:01the death of Winston Churchill, January
1:0324, 1965, British Prime Minister, the
1:09man who in 1940, when France fell,
1:11single-handedly held the banner of
1:13democracy against Hitler as he spread
1:16across Europe. He even won the Nobel
1:19Prize for Literature for his history of
1:22the Second World War. Is it possible
1:24today to produce a leader like
1:26Churchill?
1:27Well, if we are to continue with the
1:29same line of reasoning, I would say
1:30let’s hope not. Let’s hope there is
1:33no need for one. If there were a need,
1:35one would probably emerge. Only, as it
1:37happens, the next great world leader
1:39might emerge in China or India this
1:41time, who knows.
1:42American mother, English father,
1:44descendant of the Duke of Marlborough.
1:48His Chief of the Imperial General Staff
1:50during the Second World War, Lord
1:52Alanbrooke, complains in his diaries
1:54that he often conducted war operations
1:57tipsy or quite merry from cognac.
2:00Let’s see who Winston Churchill was.
2:04Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill was
2:06born in 1874 under the reign of Queen
2:08Victoria to a British peer, Sir
2:10Randolph, and a beautiful American,
2:12Jennie Jerome, daughter of a New York
2:14Times owner. He is the classic restless
2:20and unruly scion of a noble and
2:22dissolute family. At a very young age,
2:25he embodied the spirit of imperial
2:27England, and first as a cavalry
2:28lieutenant, then as a war correspondent
2:30, he threw himself into four different
2:32wars. He went from Cuba to India, from
2:35Sudan to South Africa. His reports soon
2:38made him famous. He entered Parliament
2:44with the Conservatives, would later
2:46switch to the Liberals, only to return
2:48to his old party 20 years later. He
2:54nurtured a genuine passion for the art
2:56of war, yet in the First World War, as
2:58head of the Admiralty, he oversaw the
3:00disastrous failure of the Gallipoli
3:01campaign. Churchill is Chancellor of
3:09the Exchequer. These are the years of
3:11the economic crisis. London is shaken
3:13by protests, unrest, and strikes. In
3:17the 1930s, Churchill observes the rise
3:19of Nazi fascism on the continent. In
3:231933, he meets Mussolini and writes
3:25that he was fascinated by him, but
3:27regarding Hitler, his hatred is
3:29immediate, and as early as 1934, he
3:31declares he is willing to do anything
3:34to fight him, even collaborating with
3:36the Soviet Union. So, when Italy is
3:43preparing to declare war on France and
3:45England, Churchill, who has resumed his
3:48post as Prime Minister, writes warm
3:50letters to His Excellency Benito
3:52Mussolini, telling him: "Duce, if you
3:54have demands in the Mediterranean, we
3:57can reach an agreement, but do not
3:59enter the war alongside the Führer."
4:02In your opinion, was there a
4:03possibility of an understanding between
4:05the Italians and the English in that
4:06May-June of '40? Well, after all, we
4:09had been allies in the previous war,
4:12and the country did not love Germany;
4:14the alliance with Germany was a forced
4:16one that few liked. It didn't even
4:19please Ciano, who had married
4:21Mussolini's daughter; he was the
4:22foreign minister, and yet he hated the
4:24Germans. So yes, there could have been.
4:26Also, it is always wonderful to engage
4:28in "what if" history; it is not true
4:29that one shouldn't do it, on the
4:31contrary, so it would have been a
4:32wonderful thing from a certain point of
4:34view. We would have won the Second
4:36World War, only perhaps it is better
4:38that we lost it, after all, considering
4:40the Italy of that time more closely.
4:43Let us remember that it is Churchill
4:45himself who, right after the war with
4:47the Cold War and the Iron Curtain
4:49speech, begins to move closer to
4:50right-wing dictatorships, Franco and
4:52all the others, so he would have
4:54immediately made Italy an
4:56anti-communist bastion in the south. Oh
4:59yes, we would have gone on like Spain,
5:00probably. Mussolini would have died of
5:03old age in the 60s as well, so doing "
5:05what if" history, even regarding great
5:08leaders, shows the opportunities we
5:10missed, but also the dangers we escaped
5:12, right?
5:13Yes. And it also shows the nuances of
5:15great leaders like someone like
5:17Churchill, who, well, admires Mussolini
5:18. Actually, there is little to be done
5:20about it. When today, Alessandro
5:23Barbero, we lament the lack of great
5:26leaders, we also forget that great
5:27leaders have caused great disasters,
5:30for example, and, um, Adolf Hitler. And
5:36on history channels or on YouTube, the
5:39web's video channel, it is easy to come
5:43across a cartoonish Führer, that is, a
5:46Führer who, in jerky German with
5:49marionette-like gestures, hypnotizes
5:52large, vast crowds of Germans
5:54goose-stepping. Instead, Hitler's
5:59leadership—the Führer's leadership
6:02—was based on facts and deep
6:04historical roots. What were they?
6:07Well, there was certainly a need on the
6:09part of Germany to have a leader like
6:11Hitler. I mean, we have this Germany
6:13that emerged from World War I full of
6:15resentment. They were convinced the
6:18army hadn't been defeated, that there
6:19was a stab in the back by whom? By the
6:21communists who wanted a revolution, the
6:23reds, and by the Jews who, who knows
6:25why, betrayed them. So, Germany lost
6:28the war, yet they were convinced they
6:29had the right to win it, that it would
6:31have been just to win. They were
6:34treated poorly in the Treaty of
6:35Versailles, where terrible conditions
6:37were imposed on Germany. The German
6:41people were waiting for someone to come
6:43forward with charismatic oratory to
6:45tell the Germans, "You will be great
6:47again." Everyone was there, from the
6:51university professor to the university
6:53janitor, listening to these promises
6:55with wide-eyed dreams.
6:58When Hitler made Germany and much of
7:00Europe dream from 1933 to 1945.
7:07Hans, Georg, Friedrich, Siegfried,
7:10Gottfried. At 20, they had read in the*
7:16Schwarze Korps*, the SS magazine. The
7:20Führer represents everything to me.
7:22His portrait is found like that of my
7:24creator in my office, in my living room
7:26. When I saw the Führer for the first
7:30time, a warm torrent of strength took
7:33hold of my soul, and from that day I
7:35was completely lost in him. What the
7:39good Lord was for me in my childhood,
7:41the Führer is now to me. On June 8,
7:501944, Hans Zimsen writes: "Our life
7:53belongs to the Führer, always in
7:56struggle and sacrifice. We need faith
7:59and obedience. Heil Hitler." On July 27
8:04, 1944, Friedrich Uberman writes: "
8:08Fight, fight. Every drop of our blood
8:12is a contribution to the greatness and
8:14glory of the Reich.""Are you determined
8:22, German people, if the Führer orders
8:25it, to work 10, 12, and if necessary,
8:2714 hours a day to achieve victory?"
8:30This is what Goebbels asked, calling
8:32the German people to total war. In 1944
8:36, war production doubled compared to
8:391942. Total war now engages every
8:43citizen who has German blood. The
8:46country is transformed into one great
8:48front, one immense barracks where every
8:50man must live, work, and produce for
8:52the outcome of the total war. Every
8:55citizen is a soldier. Not only for
8:59Joseph, Martin, Heinrich, or Peter
9:02working in an arms factory is there a
9:04decoration. Also for Hans the baker,
9:08for Fritzi the railway worker, for
9:10Georg and Horst who are farmers; for
9:12the recalcitrant, there is terror.
9:16Look, Vittorio Foa, one of the fathers
9:18of the Italian Constituent Assembly,
9:20used to say: "It was us Italians,
9:22however, who invented fascism." It
9:24wasn't the Germans, the Spanish, or
9:26even the Portuguese. "In fact, Hitler
9:28considered Benito Mussolini his master
9:31his whole life, his inspiration, even
9:33going so far as to rescue him from his
9:35imprisonment at Gran Sasso later on."
9:39Historians in Italy are still divided
9:42over Mussolini, despite De Felice's
9:44monumental biography, because political
9:47division is so strong that we cannot
9:50give an objective historical judgment
9:53of the Duce: that is, how he won the
9:55consensus of the masses of workers and
9:58intellectuals—like Pirandello in
10:00Italy—and how he then squandered that
10:03consensus in the few years of the war
10:06and the racial laws. What is your
10:08judgment?
10:09Well, the problem is that if one were
10:11to judge a leader by results, there
10:13would be no discussion. Mussolini left
10:16the country devastated. Italy suffered
10:19the worst catastrophe in its history
10:20with the Second World War, and it was
10:22Mussolini who plunged us right into it.
10:24So, if it were enough to look at the
10:26results, we wouldn't be here discussing
10:28it. However, when we say a "great
10:31leader," we also mean someone very
10:32skilled at politics and at seizing
10:34power, someone who knows the craft well
10:36; and Mussolini was a great journalist,
10:38a great party leader, someone who knew
10:40how to do politics, at least until
10:42power perhaps went to his head a bit,
10:43all things considered. And let's not
10:47forget that when we judge a party and a
10:50politician who took a very strong
10:52stance—and we are a country still
10:54divided today, where interests clash,
10:57meaning there is class struggle as Marx
10:59said—if there is class struggle, it
11:02is clear that whoever crushes one of
11:04the sides (as Mussolini did), whoever
11:07crushed the Left and annihilated
11:09socialism in Italy, a part of the
11:11country admired him then and, I believe
11:14, still admires him now for having done
11:17so.
11:18Above all, naturally and rightly, the
11:21Republic has exalted the figures, for
11:24example, of the intellectuals who
11:26opposed Mussolini: Gramsci, Gobetti,
11:29Croce, and the university professors
11:32who refused to swear allegiance to
11:35fascism. Yes, but in rightly exalting
11:39the exceptions, we forget that in the
11:42conversations the Duce had with De
11:44Begnac, he spoke of all the
11:46intellectuals who ran to him, begging
11:48for the plumed hat and the sword of an
11:51Academic of Italy, and how there was a
11:54dose of opportunism, but also a dose of
11:56sincere admiration for what he was
11:58doing. But I believe that in every
12:01historical phenomenon of this kind,
12:03which involves an entire people of
12:04millions, of tens of millions of
12:05individuals, there is a bit of
12:06everything. So there are those who
12:09agree with Mussolini because Mussolini
12:10did well, he saved Italy from
12:12revolution.
12:13There are those who agree with
12:14Mussolini because they are patriots and
12:16believe that Mussolini is still
12:17carrying out the Risorgimento, the
12:19greatness of the country. And there are
12:21those who tell themselves that, in the
12:23end, an academic's salary in Italy is a
12:25very fine thing. But let us not forget
12:27that back then, even Roosevelt and even
12:29Churchill admired Benito Mussolini.
12:32We do not want hegemony in Europe.
12:41We will be against the establishment of
12:45any hegemony. Mussolini was an orator,
12:55many say a great orator. In the crucial
12:59moments of his career, he would address
13:01the crowd. Applause and consensus gave
13:05him that security he perhaps also
13:07needed psychologically to command and
13:09to decide. Today, with full peace of
13:19mind, I say to you, immense multitude,
13:23that this 20th century will be the
13:28century of fascism,
13:31it will be the century, it will be the
13:34century of Italian power. A decade!
13:42Will Europe be fascist or fascistized?
13:49It is legitimate to think that in 1934
13:52the Duce was still interested in
13:54maintaining friendship with France and
13:56England and in containing Hitler and
13:58the German desires for revenge. that if
14:02he in this Europe in distress,
14:06tormented, which I cannot find because
14:10perhaps I cannot find the basis for its
14:13necessary settlement. The great bell
14:17will ring out the alarm. It is certain
14:25that all the Italian people,
14:28from the snowy peaks of the Alps, to
14:34the districts of Sicily and Sardinia,
14:38all the Italian people
14:43will respond. And remember, my
14:50blackshirts. And if this happens, I
14:58will be at your head. I will be at your
15:06head. And, in preparing this outline,
15:10Alessandro, Fabrizio Marini, Claudio
15:12Gianmattei, Lare Dasassi, and Francesco
15:15Cirafici remind us of the Duce's body:
15:18the theme that Sergio Luzzatto, a
15:20colleague of yours, was the first or
15:22among the first to illustrate—that is
15:25, the fact that the Duce, bare-chested
15:28with uniforms, exposing his chest to
15:30the elements, gave the masses a
15:32physical totem to follow, which later,
15:35however, in Piazzale Loreto in April of
15:39'45, is turned upside down on purpose.
15:43On the other hand, curiously, the
15:45leader of the democracies who opposes
15:48fascism first in peace and then in war
15:50—that is, the four-time American
15:52president Franklin Roosevelt—was
15:54actually a polio victim; he had had
15:57paralysis due to polio, he used a
15:59wheelchair, and when he was standing,
16:01he was supported by others holding him
16:04up. What was this relationship like
16:07between the democracies that had a
16:09wounded leader and, conversely, the
16:10fascisms that had these macho, powerful
16:12leaders? But then, in the end,
16:14democracy wins.
16:14But evidently, democracy cannot be
16:17summarized by its leader. Apart from
16:20the fact that Roosevelt's leadership
16:22struggled greatly to impose itself on a
16:25country like America, which largely
16:26wanted nothing to do with it, wanted
16:28nothing to do with being involved in
16:30the European war—well, America is a
16:32complex country, and Roosevelt embodied
16:34one of its possible souls. We remind
16:38our listeners that when the Japanese
16:40attacked the Americans at Pearl Harbor
16:43in '41, Roosevelt, who had been trying
16:45to convince Congress to declare war for
16:48years, could not get them to declare
16:50war on the Germans and Italians. And
16:53only when the Germans and Italians
16:55declared war did America enter, because
16:58otherwise Congress would have only let
17:00him wage war in the Pacific,
17:01only against Japan. Then, in reality,
17:03Roosevelt—well, one of the
17:05greatnesses of a leader is having a
17:06clear idea, better if it's right, of
17:08course, and carrying it through to the
17:10end. Roosevelt then managed to impose
17:12the "Germany First" principle on
17:14America, meaning the war is fought
17:16primarily against Germany, aiming to
17:18defeat Germany first, and Japan later.
17:20It is unnatural, but Roosevelt wanted
17:23it and he was right. After Roosevelt,
17:26the American Constitution was changed;
17:28no one will ever be able to be
17:29president four times again, but he was
17:31president four times. The Great
17:35Depression, as it was called, seemed to
17:37have paralyzed every energy and stifled
17:40every enthusiasm. America, which had
17:45been the great myth for Europe in the
17:4720s, appeared exhausted. The election
17:51of Roosevelt was, in hindsight, a true
17:53appointment with destiny. The march of
18:00the discontented on Washington provoked
18:02very harsh repressions. The country
18:04seemed on the verge of anarchy. The
18:12electoral votes went to Roosevelt. The
18:15outgoing president, that Republican
18:17Hoover, who had unwisely said four
18:19years earlier, "Prosperity is just
18:21around the corner," accompanied the
18:23newly elected president to the festive
18:25inauguration at the White House and
18:27Congress. Everyone is waiting for a
18:29word that brings comfort. Roosevelt
18:31prefers a cautionary speech. This is,
18:36above all, the time to tell the truth.
18:39The whole truth, frankly and
18:41courageously. Nor must we shrink from
18:46honestly facing the conditions of our
18:48country. This great nation will endure
18:53as it has endured, will revive, and
18:57will prosper. So, first of all, let me
19:01assert my firm belief that the only
19:06thing we have to fear is fear itself,
19:13nameless, unreasoning, unjustified
19:15terror which paralyzes needed efforts
19:18to convert retreat into advance. Thus
19:23begin the 99 days of the New Deal, that
19:25new course of economic and social
19:27planning which, prepared together with
19:29a large group of experts, was intended
19:31to allow him, through frantic
19:33legislative activity, to halt the
19:34crisis and give a new face to American
19:37democracy. But alongside the favor of
19:40the masses, the hostility of the
19:41country's reactionary classes grew. The
19:46word "fascist" directed at him was
19:49accompanied by eloquent, ironic
19:51gestures. Thousands of people were
19:54hired to deliberately march with their
19:56arms raised. The great dynasties of
20:01economic power turned against him with
20:03even greater bitterness, as, given his
20:05origins, they considered him a
20:07demagogue. But the words of Al Smith,
20:11who accused him of subversive
20:13demagoguery, and of the communist
20:14leader Browder, who branded him a
20:16defeatist bourgeois, failed to erode
20:18his popular support. The 1936 election
20:23campaign took place at a hellish pace.
20:26The result in Roosevelt's favor was
20:28unprecedented in American history. 46
20:30out of 48 states voted in his favor.
20:36Roosevelt embodied, let's say, the
20:38resilience of democracy, both during
20:41the economic crisis of '29 and the
20:44growing war events in Europe and Asia.
20:49His interlocutor—who was never really
20:52an enemy, because when it truly became
20:54an enemy during the Cold War, Roosevelt
20:57was already dead, and his successor,
20:59Vice President Harry Truman, had
21:02arrived at the White House. But the man
21:06who long faced the democracies, first
21:08in peace and then in war—even if it
21:11was the Cold War, having been an ally
21:13during the Second World War—is Stalin
21:15, whose charm was very strong in the
21:18West, especially within European
21:20communist parties. Now, Montefiore's
21:24biography paints him almost as a
21:27monster, a madman. But what is your
21:29judgment of Stalin? I would start by
21:33recalling the judgment given by
21:35Churchill, because perhaps it is useful
21:37; as historians working on these things
21:3950 or 100 years later, we know many
21:41more things and have seen many secret
21:43documents, but we no longer have the
21:45spirit of the time. So, Churchill, who
21:50is a fierce anti-communist, who admires
21:52Mussolini for crushing the left, and
21:54who knows Stalin's crimes perfectly
21:56well—because Stalin's crimes were a
21:59surprise to communists worldwide,
22:01obviously, when Khrushchev revealed
22:03them, but anti-communists had already
22:05said: "The Soviet Union is a fierce
22:07dictatorship where people are
22:09exterminated, purges, and so on."
22:13Churchill knows Stalin's crimes
22:14perfectly; nevertheless, he says: "He
22:17is an extraordinary man, of
22:18extraordinary intelligence, who grasps
22:21things on the fly." And Churchill has
22:23no difficulty working with him, while
22:25being a bit wary of him, but he doesn't
22:27behave as we would—we wouldn't shake
22:29Stalin's hand because we are used to
22:31considering him almost like another
22:33Hitler. For Churchill, it is more
22:35complex than that. Today, curiously and
22:38unexpectedly, a Stalinist renaissance
22:40is underway in Russia. We saw
22:44Stalingrad change its name, it returned
22:46to its ancient name Volgograd, and now
22:49a Stalin museum is opening. Russian
22:52leader Putin has said several times, "
22:55We must understand that he was a great
22:57national leader, he did things we don't
22:59agree with, but a great Russian
23:01national leader." Did you expect a
23:03Stalinist Renaissance too? No, not
23:06really, because I thought that Russia,
23:08in order to finally establish itself as
23:10a member of the community of civilized
23:12nations, would have done without this.
23:15Yet, evidently, this admiration for the
23:17iron man is strong in the Russian
23:19character, because after all, Stalin
23:21means that, right? The man of steel.
23:24Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, a
23:26Georgian former seminarian known as
23:29Stalin. Unlike Roosevelt and Churchill,
23:34who grew up in comfort and privilege,
23:36Stalin's story begins in poverty and
23:38hardship. Joseph Vissarionovich
23:43Dzhugashvili was born in Georgia in
23:451879 to a poor, alcoholic shoemaker. In
23:49the seminary, he had his first contact
23:51with Russian Marxism, and from then on,
23:53his revolutionary career in the
23:54Bolshevik Party was unstoppable. In a
23:58short time, he becomes Stalin, the man
24:00of steel. He is appointed General
24:04Secretary of the party and gains total
24:06control of the Soviet state apparatus.
24:12Lenin, before dying, says of him: "
24:15Comrade Stalin has concentrated immense
24:17power in his hands, and I am not sure
24:19that he will always know how to use
24:21that power with sufficient caution."
24:26Stalin becomes General Secretary for
24:28life. The propaganda apparatus
24:30celebrates him as a genius of socialist
24:32reconstruction, father of the people,
24:34the great helmsman. But the reality is
24:36different. The Soviet Union experiences
24:39a true season of terror. Through
24:47summary public trials, Stalin gets rid
24:49of most of the party leaders by killing
24:51, arresting, and deporting them. So,
24:55while Hitler prepares to realize his
24:57expansionist dream, the Red Army finds
24:59itself deprived of its best commanders,
25:01who ended up before a firing squad.
25:06June 22, 1941. Operation Barbarossa
25:10begins. The Nazis invade Russia. This
25:15is certainly the most difficult moment
25:17of his life. But on July 3, Stalin
25:20returns to the scene and delivers a
25:22historic radio speech destined to
25:24change the fate of the Second World War
25:26. He speaks of the pact with Hitler, an
25:31error committed in the name of peace,
25:33but now he defines the Nazis as
25:35criminals and cannibals. With these
25:39words, Stalin finally enters the field
25:41against Nazism. He takes on the role of
25:44Commissioner of Defense and appoints
25:46himself Supreme Commander.
25:50He never leaves Moscow, he never goes
25:52to the front. Night and day, he reads
25:55reports and issues orders. In his
25:57refuge, he has a stage built from which
25:59to be filmed while he asks his people
26:01for extraordinary sacrifices. This is
26:05the moment when the need for an
26:07alliance with the West matures. The
26:10victory at Stalingrad changed the
26:12course of the war, and not only that.
26:14The prestige of the Kremlin reached its
26:16highest point. Stalin appeared as the
26:20man who was able to stop Nazism, now
26:22ready to sit alongside Roosevelt and
26:23Churchill to decide the future of the
26:26world. We have forgotten, seeing these
26:31images of the Battle of Stalingrad and
26:33the finale, that the world really came
26:35close to a different history. Let's
26:39return to the leader whose half-century
26:43since his death we are commemorating,
26:46Churchill; the historian Lucas in the
26:49book "Five Days in May" says the peace
26:53party in England was very strong when
26:56France surrendered to Hitler. Halifax
27:01and Chamberlain insisted: let's make a
27:03separate peace, we keep the empire and
27:06leave Europe to Hitler. It is Churchill
27:10who stubbornly continues to insist on
27:12carrying on with the war. How close did
27:16Hitler really come to winning or at
27:18least tying the Second World War? You
27:21know what? I'll correct myself. It's
27:22better not to do history with "what-ifs
27:24," because at this point it becomes
27:25truly difficult. But no, in reality,
27:29history doesn't have laws; naturally,
27:31chance often counts for a lot, but the
27:34balance of power counts for more. And I
27:38believe that if Churchill ultimately
27:39convinced England that it was necessary
27:41to keep fighting, it is because, in
27:43effect, it would have been catastrophic
27:45for them not to. Roosevelt eventually
27:47brought America into the war because
27:49for America it was necessary to enter
27:51the war, and if they hadn't understood
27:53it immediately they would have
27:54understood it a bit later, but in my
27:56opinion, in the end, Hitler could not
27:58win. Well, I would put it this way.
28:00Hitler could not win. Certainly, on May
28:0310, 1940, when the King summoned
28:05Churchill to Buckingham Palace, this
28:08statement was much more at risk. A
28:11month later, exactly one month later,
28:13on June 10, Italy would unfortunately
28:15enter the war. Let us look at those
28:17such dramatic hours for Europe.
28:19May 10, 1940, the King summons
28:21Churchill to Buckingham Palace to
28:23entrust him with the formation of the
28:25new government. Appealing to his
28:31conscience and his honor, the new Prime
28:33Minister refuses any agreement with
28:35Hitler and his challenge becomes the
28:36challenge of an entire nation. As Prime
28:41Minister, Churchill flies from one
28:43front to another, instilling energy in
28:45the troops and studying new strategies.
28:48He does not give up even when things
28:50take a turn for the worse. The retreat
28:55from Dunkirk in Belgium, where the
28:57British and French fight together
28:59against a German army whose advance is
29:01now unstoppable. It is a true feat.
29:06England now fears a landing by the
29:08Reich on the island. But Churchill
29:11defends the English Channel coast and
29:12rules out the hypothesis of evacuating
29:14the royal family to Canada. Even when
29:21the Luftwaffe passes the White Cliffs
29:23of Dover, even during the 57 long days
29:25of non-stop bombing over London's skies
29:27, he continues to reject any talk of a
29:29deal with Hitler. England needs help,
29:35needs war materiel, and it asks its
29:37American cousins for it. Throughout the
29:46war, Churchill is often at the front
29:48like an old soldier. In Africa, the
29:50troops welcome him warmly. In France,
29:57he follows the Normandy landings to
29:59support his men and sign a bomb perhaps
30:01destined for Hitler. And it is he who
30:06works for the Yalta Conference,
30:08mediating between Stalin, who insists
30:10it take place in Crimea, and Roosevelt,
30:12who does not want to make such a long
30:14journey. Churchill flies to Moscow to
30:19discuss the fate of war-torn Europe
30:21with Stalin. Then the international
30:25landscape changes rapidly. March 5,
30:331946, Fulton, United States. Churchill
30:37delivers the Iron Curtain speech,
30:39denouncing the dangers of Soviet
30:40expansionism. His words mark the
30:44beginning of the Cold War. January 24,
30:571965, London. The last of the Yalta Big
31:04Three dies at 91. England bids him
31:09farewell with the honors bestowed upon
31:11a king. Winston Churchill spent his
31:15final years working on his memoirs and
31:17dedicating himself to painting, one of
31:19the many passions that accompanied him
31:21throughout his long life. Moisés Naím
31:30, in his book "The End of Power"—
31:32translated in Italy by Mondadori—
31:34which became the first book chosen by
31:36Facebook founder Zuckerberg for his
31:38book club. He actually entered every
31:42home, saying it's not that great
31:45leaders are gone, it's that power is
31:47gone, because previously a leader
31:49controlled the economy, culture, the
31:52military, the state forces. Now power
31:55has fragmented, partly thanks to social
31:58media, and so it’s not that leaders
32:00are lacking, but that power is lacking.
32:02Do you agree?
32:03Yes. I would perhaps leave a reflection
32:06on Putin for the end, but tell us why.
32:09Tell us why.
32:11Well, because Putin still fits this
32:13picture in his country, albeit in a
32:14more mediated way, not as directly as
32:17Stalin. On the other hand, even Stalin,
32:20when he sent an order to someone, would
32:22say, "We and the comrades have gathered
32:24and the comrades have decided." So, I
32:27don't think much has changed, and this
32:30is one of those cases where one must
32:32wait. Historians will know if Russia is
32:35on the path to becoming a great country
32:37that matters in the world, and if then
32:40it will be remembered that Putin's
32:42ability to re-aggregate Ukraine—no,
32:44wait, to occupy Crimea—were just the
32:47starting point for a renaissance of
32:49Russian power; and then Putin will go
32:51down in history like Peter the Great.
32:55The contradiction in Europe is embodied
32:57by General de Gaulle, General Charles
33:00de Gaulle, a Frenchman, who sees France
33:02in those same days we saw Churchill
33:04arrive at Buckingham Palace, literally
33:07losing the Second World War, signing an
33:10armistice with the victorious Germans.
33:13Paris is occupied, accompanied by
33:15Albert Speer. The Führer goes on a
33:18brief sightseeing tour in Paris, and de
33:21Gaulle instead flies to London, creates
33:25an alternative government—at first,
33:27no one believes in it—and thanks to
33:30the leader's personality, he takes
33:33defeated France and transforms it into
33:36a victor of the Second World War. This
33:40is a miracle. Alessandro Barbero:
33:42Churchill found de Gaulle unbearable, a
33:44conceited man who amounted to nothing
33:46and put on airs as if he were
33:48everything, but then, in the end, by
33:49sheer force of will, de Gaulle
33:51succeeded, and also...
33:54Sabri points out some crosses I had to
33:56bear; Churchill said none was as heavy
33:58as the Cross of Lorraine, a traditional
34:01French symbol. Certainly, the Cross of
34:04Lorraine is a symbol in particular of
34:06de Gaulle and his movement, so yes,
34:07bearing it because Churchill decided to
34:09support him in the end.
34:11De Gaulle is unbearable. In the diaries
34:15of Alanbrooke, it is highlighted how
34:17unbearable he is, and President
34:19Roosevelt cannot stand him. When Paris
34:22falls, he insists that the French be
34:25the first to march in. During the
34:28Normandy landings, he constantly
34:30imposes propaganda measures, but ones
34:32that ensure the French have the claim
34:35to being the first to liberate their
34:37own home. But he manages to keep the
34:42country together and pretend—we say
34:43this with no offense to our dear French
34:45cousins—that they won the Second
34:46World War, when in fact they had lost
34:48it.
34:49Indeed. Well, in this sense, precisely,
34:52de Gaulle is perhaps one step below
34:54Churchill or Roosevelt, because he is
34:56not a leader of world stature; yet for
34:57France, for a country that had been one
34:59of the great powers of the world and is
35:01no longer, he is a figure of enormous
35:03importance with one single thing in
35:05mind. The only thing in mind is that, "
35:07La Grandeur," right? France must be
35:09great, by dint of repeating it. It
35:12truly is, in a certain sense.
35:13We are nostalgic for great leaders. We
35:16see General Charles de Gaulle, but then
35:18the question, Alessandro Barbero, is
35:20why didn't we have a de Gaulle in Italy
35:22? We believe that the honor of the
35:29French consists in continuing the war
35:31alongside their allies, and we are
35:32determined to do so. De Gaulle did not
35:38hold a high rank; he was a brigadier
35:40general with a past as an unheeded
35:43prophet behind him. The other French
35:45commands did not take his theories
35:47seriously, which were instead studied
35:48thoroughly by the Germans. The French
35:51collapse in '40 proved that de Gaulle
35:53had seen it right.
35:58The French nation must adhere to these
35:59three realities. First, the enemy is
36:03the enemy. Second, the salvation of the
36:05fatherland lies only in victory. Third,
36:08it is in fighting France that all of
36:10France must be recognized. Militarily,
36:17fighting France will never be very
36:19significant throughout the war. During
36:22its first phase, when Hitler's troops
36:25were on the offensive, it had forces
36:27too scarce to play a major role. Later,
36:31when the allies were stronger, De
36:33Gaulle's divisions disappeared into the
36:35colossal tide of American, Soviet, and
36:38British forces. In July 1944, the
36:45allies landed in Normandy. Once again,
36:53the British and Americans treated De
36:55Gaulle coldly, as he was informed of
36:57the operation only a few hours in
36:59advance.
37:03The supreme battle has begun, of course
37:06, it is the battle of France and it is
37:08the battle for France. After more than
37:11a month of fighting, the allied troops
37:13broke the German front and began their
37:15advance toward the center of France.
37:22Paris rose up while the Americans and
37:24the British were still far away. In a
37:32bloody series of street fights, the
37:34resistance managed to put the Germans
37:35in serious difficulty. The allies
37:41headed for Paris and De Gaulle ensured
37:42that a French division was at the head
37:44of the liberators 'columns. Paris,
37:56Paris outraged, Paris broken, Paris
37:59martyred, but Paris liberated,
38:01liberated by its own strength,
38:04liberated by its people, with the help
38:06of the French army, with the support
38:09and cooperation of the whole of France.
38:17This text is typical of the Gaullist
38:20attitude, not a word acknowledging that
38:22it was, for better or worse, the
38:24British and Americans who won the
38:26battle of France. It is one of the
38:30constant traits of the man, the
38:32boundless pride that easily slips into
38:35illusion. Unbearable, pompous,
38:46ungrateful, because he says "we
38:49liberated it ourselves," he puts
38:51General Leclerc at the head of the
38:54parade in Paris, and yet De Gaulle
38:57keeps the French people together.
39:02Alessandro Barbero, one wonders why
39:04there wasn't a similar figure in Italy
39:07after September 8th; some thought the
39:09young Prince Umberto could be a leader
39:12capable of saying, "Now Italy is behind
39:15the allies." Some even dreamed that the
39:19Duke of Aosta, when taken prisoner in
39:22Amba Alagi, could say, "I will lead the
39:25Italians to fight." Instead, we did not
39:28have a figure of national unity like
39:29the French had with De Gaulle. Why, in
39:31your opinion? Well, first of all, look
39:33at the examples you gave; they are all
39:35examples linked to the royal house. In
39:38Italy, there is the monarchy, and that
39:39complicates things a lot and actually
39:41weakens the country at that moment. De
39:43Gaulle is on his own. Once he manages
39:46to get recognized, De Gaulle is the
39:47legitimate French government with no
39:49one above him. In Italy, there has
39:52always been this ambiguous coexistence
39:54of fascism and the monarchy, and later
39:56of anti-fascism and the monarchy. De
39:58Gaulle is a soldier, and that is an
40:00important detail. In our country,
40:03Badoglio could have played that kind of
40:05role, but Badoglio had the king behind
40:07him; he was never alone. Besides,
40:09Badoglio was, well, older. As a young
40:12man, Badoglio was considered a great
40:14promise, a brilliant military man, one
40:16of the leading thinkers. Then things
40:18turned out the way they did, in short.
40:19So, I repeat, at that time he was
40:21already much older. Therefore, Italy
40:23does not have the ability, due to its
40:25complex and divided structure,
40:27fragmented by different power centers,
40:29to unify as France does. The leader who
40:32instead manages to keep Italy in
40:34democracy after the war, start economic
40:36recovery, and avoid falling into civil
40:39war like in Greece and other countries,
40:41is the Christian Democrat Prime
40:43Minister Alcide De Gasperi.
40:47On June 5, 1944, Rome was liberated by
40:51the Allies. The nightmare is over. The
40:55Roman Committee of Liberation, chaired
40:57by Bonomi, prepares a new government.
41:00The one who managed to find agreement
41:02or prevent discord among the parties
41:04and the anti-fascist programs was De
41:06Gasperi, he took on the frightening
41:11legacy of the war. The veterans, upon
41:14their return, found a country in ruins.
41:19In August 1946, De Gasperi went to
41:21Paris for the peace treaty. A glacial
41:24silence greeted him.
41:27At a peace conference, it is extremely
41:29unpleasant to speak of weapons and
41:32instruments of war. I must mention it,
41:37however, because in the precautions
41:41taken by the treaty against a presumed
41:45resurgence of an Italian threat, they
41:49went so far as to make our defensive
41:53capacity, linked to our independence,
41:56precarious.
42:00On January 3, 1947, De Gasperi went to
42:03America. A poor representative of a
42:06poor Italy, he borrowed suitcases and
42:08coats from friends.
42:10I arrive in Washington at this moment
42:13after a long journey, but I find myself
42:16among friends.
42:19Having re-established friendly
42:20relations with the United States, the
42:21tangible sign of the success of that
42:23trip was also expressed by a check for
42:2450 million dollars. The United States
42:27also guaranteed grain and the ships to
42:29transport it. The political elections
42:32of April 18, 1948, were De Gasperi's
42:35greatest triumph. With the country's
42:38support, De Gasperi was able to
42:39intensify the reconstruction effort, an
42:42work of immense proportions, even
42:43though much had already been done under
42:46his leadership. June 1954. The Naples
42:51Congress, De Gasperi said, will be my
42:53final labor. After that, I will only
42:56have to prepare to die. He was a
42:58prophet. Then he returned to his home
43:03among the mountains. It was hoped that
43:07the air of those places would once
43:09again restore him, but instead he
43:10collapsed under the weight of fatigue
43:12and age. He was 73 years old. His death
43:19caused consternation for everyone. The
43:22anguish of the Italians was immediately
43:24shown by the influx of people who went
43:26up to his cabin and then by the
43:27spontaneous, plebiscitary participation
43:30in the funeral procession. Alessandro
43:53Barbero, despite the somewhat emphatic
43:55tones from another era in the report we
43:58recovered, in reality, even in his own
44:00party, the Christian Democracy, De
44:02Gasperi became a legacy to be discarded
44:05in a great hurry. In the collective
44:09memory of our country, he is not
44:11remembered with the veneration that
44:13Americans have for Roosevelt, the
44:15British for Churchill, or the French
44:17for De Gaulle, because—perhaps for
44:19the same reasons that made De Gasperi a
44:22fundamental and indispensable man for
44:24the country at the time, and for the
44:26same reason he has been forgotten today
44:28—let's put it paradoxically: De
44:30Gasperi wasn't Italian.
44:33He had even been a member of parliament
44:35in the empire, right?
44:37He was obviously of Italian nationality
44:39from a cultural point of view, and the
44:41Trentino people are Italian, but what
44:43defined Italy? The experience of the
44:46First World War, for example; during
44:48the First World War, De Gasperi was a
44:50deputy in the Vienna Parliament. Eh,
44:53obviously the Parliament was closed
44:54during the war, but he was essentially
44:56an Austrian subject. Mm. The
44:59irredentist sentiment only went so far,
45:00I believe; it wasn't his primary
45:02concern because his primary concern was
45:03religious. He was a very committed
45:05Catholic, so he lived through the
45:07experience of the First World War on
45:09the other side, in Austria. Then what
45:11defines Italy? Fascism? He stayed
45:13outside of it; he was not a fascist,
45:15nor was he a militant anti-fascist.
45:18During the war, he did not participate
45:19in the resistance, I believe. He was a
45:20guest in the Vatican, if I recall
45:22correctly. In essence, he was a person
45:25who lived with his religious passion,
45:27his studies, and also a growing
45:29political passion, of course, but
45:31without sharing the experiences that
45:33tore Italy apart, split it, and divided
45:35it into opposing sides. Since we are
45:39discussing leadership, are you saying
45:41that Italy can only be saved by
45:42non-Italian leaders, because that then
45:44becomes a moral for our own time as
45:46well? The supporters of the Tsipras
45:48list thought the same thing a short
45:50while ago. No, I don't want to say that
45:52absolutely, but I want to say that, in
45:54that specific case, seeing this man
45:56appear—whom no one, I believe, knew
45:58in post-1945 Italy, the people didn't
46:00know De Gasperi—and seeing him appear
46:02so different from everything that had
46:04been seen until then, so far from
46:06fascist rhetoric, but also from the
46:08passion of the resistance, in reality,
46:10I believe, right? So cold, and
46:12therefore so un-Italian, and at that
46:14moment, evidently, that was what was
46:16needed.
46:18In the 20th century, one of the leaders
46:21who was truly monumental in his feats,
46:24in the geographic scale of his realm,
46:27and in the number of victims attributed
46:30to him, was Mao Zedong. And when he
46:35passed away in 1976, the major European
46:37newspapers, Le Monde, La Stampa, still
46:40ran headlines like "Mao is Dead, the
46:42Last of the Greats," and only later did
46:44we discover there were great massacres,
46:47great dictatorships, and great
46:49atrocities. Give us your definition of
46:52Mao as a great leader of the 20th
46:53century. Well, we need to agree on what
46:56"greatness" is, because when we look at
46:58the distant past, we think of Genghis
47:00Khan, we think of a great leader, and I
47:02believe that even today, the Mongols
47:04think of Genghis Khan fondly and with
47:07reverence. And the fact that he caused
47:09millions of deaths carries weight, but
47:11it doesn't stop us from saying, "Ah, he
47:12was a great leader nonetheless," at
47:14least that seems to be the case. But
47:16Augustus, Julius Caesar, and Alexander
47:18the Great also caused millions of
47:19deaths. Exactly. And yet, when it comes
47:23to leaders of our present or our recent
47:26past, the deaths weigh more heavily,
47:28preventing us from truly trusting these
47:31figures, right? But in the judgment of
47:36history, I believe that while,
47:37unfortunately, the deaths do count, the
47:39grandeur of the vision also counts, as
47:42does the desire to change the world—
47:44and Mao did change it.
47:47Great leaders, great feats, great
47:49crimes, Professor Alessandro Barbero
47:51tells us. Do you agree, or do you
47:53disagree? You can write to us at Rai
47:56Storia on Twitter at @Riotta. Let us
48:00hear what your opinion is. But in the
48:03meantime, let's see who the "Great
48:05Helmsman" Mao Zedong was. When, on
48:10October 1st, 1949, Mao proclaimed the
48:13People's Republic of China in Beijing,
48:15it had only been five months since
48:18Pravda began reporting on the collapse
48:20of the reactionary Kuomintang regime.
48:24Stalin was the last to recognize Mao as
48:27a victor. Our work will remain written
48:33in the history of humanity and will
48:35clearly demonstrate that the Chinese
48:37people, who represent a quarter of
48:39humanity, have from this day stood up.
48:42These are the words with which Mao
48:44solemnly closed a chapter of China's
48:46history. And proudly opened another.
48:51Winning over the entire country was
48:52only the first step of a long march of
48:5510,000 leagues. China wants to
48:59establish itself among the world's
49:01greatest powers, but two types of
49:03obstacles oppose this grand design: the
49:05country's intrinsic weakness and the
49:07open hostility of the West, in addition
49:09to the veiled hostility of Stalin. Mao
49:14faced these obstacles in his own style,
49:16in a prolonged pitched battle that
49:18proved to be just as tough as the one
49:20to conquer power. In 17 years of power,
49:27Mao reshaped China in his own image.
49:32There are public meetings in China
49:34where attendees take off their hats and
49:37bow before the portrait of Mao, China's
49:39savior star, the great helmsman of the
49:42revolution, the sun that never sets.
49:47For the Chinese person in Mao's era,
49:49there is no book other than the
49:51complete works of Mao. There is no
49:54study other than that of Mao's thought.
49:57Those who have not sufficiently
49:59purified their brains at the source of
50:01Maoist orthodoxy are sent to quarry
50:03stones. The strategy adopted is to
50:06grant no respite. One campaign ends, a
50:09new one is launched. New slogans are
50:11created for vigilance, longer working
50:14hours, purges, rectification, and
50:17remodeling. New political and economic
50:20goals are set. The pace is voluntarily
50:23accelerated by popular vote, by
50:25acclamation. What is curious,
50:30Alessandro Barbero, excuse me, is that
50:33alongside this charismatic leadership
50:36like Mao's, which has now returned to
50:39China because, indeed, the current
50:41president Xi Jinping wants to be head
50:44of the economy, head of state, head of
50:47defense, even we in Europe, with these
50:50populist leaders emerging on both the
50:53right and the left, seem to miss the
50:55leader who, bypassing and overcoming
50:59democracy, alone, with their gesture
51:01and slogan, resolves crises.
51:04Yes, but in reality, it’s been a
51:05while, right, that they’ve been
51:07saying that here we have this
51:08personalization of politics where the
51:10party you belong to doesn't count for
51:12much, the program doesn't matter much
51:13because you won't implement it anyway;
51:15what counts is the face, the smile, the
51:17oratory, the ability to be liked on
51:19television. But there was a phase when
51:21we in Italy saw this in America and
51:23told ourselves, "Thank goodness it's
51:25not like that here yet." And then, of
51:27course, this actually triumphed here
51:29too. I believe that leaders were
51:30already being created in America who
51:32were not truly leaders. Then Kennedy,
51:35I’m not sure he was a world-class
51:37leader who would have changed the world
51:40, but he was certainly a great
51:42communication figure, right? Exactly,
51:44certainly.
51:46Who was, let's say, even overrated, at
51:49least in our hopes, when he arrived at
51:52the White House, was President Barack
51:54Obama. The whole world hoped he was the
51:57leader capable of leading us out of the
52:00doldrums of the great economic crisis,
52:02from the doldrums of the great moral
52:04crisis that had ended with the 20th
52:06century. He even received a somewhat
52:11premature Nobel Peace Prize. Let's look
52:15at the great hopes of Barack Obama.
52:19Philadelphia, tomorrow morning. Barack
52:22Obama's journey to the White House
52:24officially begins here. Here, the 44th
52:28president, along with Michelle, Sasha,
52:30and Malia, will board a train bound for
52:32Washington. It is the same trip Abraham
52:36Lincoln took in 1861, and Lincoln has
52:38always been his inspiration. The first
52:41president who sought to overcome
52:43divisions, fought against segregation,
52:45and called Americans to unity after the
52:47Civil War. My fellow citizens, I stand
52:56here today humbled by the task before
53:05me, grateful for the trust you have
53:10bestowed upon me. Today I say to you
53:15that the challenges we face are real,
53:17they are serious and they are many, and
53:20they will not be easily overcome, but
53:25we will meet these challenges
53:27nonetheless.
53:29A Time magazine cover presents him as a
53:32modern-day Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
53:36There are some features in the new
53:38president's approach that recall that
53:40period, but history does not repeat
53:42itself exactly, if only because we now
53:44have to deal with globalization, with
53:47the entry onto the world stage of
53:48emerging powers like China, India, and
53:51Brazil; and some are already talking
53:53about a post-American world, with the
53:55United States scaled back. That was
53:59Monica Magioni and our friend Borrelli,
54:02TG1 correspondents, recounting the
54:04hopes of President Barack Obama which,
54:07however, Alessandro Barbero, soon
54:09dissolved in America and beyond.
54:13Clearly, let's say, giving America a
54:15civilized healthcare system is more
54:17difficult than dragging it into a world
54:19war. It is true that, returning to the
54:22starting point, in the situation of
54:24that era, when you have a war, leaders
54:25can have much more power in democratic
54:27countries. In normal situations, they
54:30have little.
54:31We dedicated our episode of Echoes of
54:33History to the nostalgia for great
54:35leaders, but is it a justified
54:37nostalgia? I leave the final word to
54:40you: do we project hopes that are
54:42actually exaggerated because when great
54:44leaders arrive they disappoint, or
54:46otherwise save us from terrible
54:47catastrophes, and it is much better not
54:50to have to be saved from terrible
54:51catastrophes. It is wonderful to look
54:54back on great leaders 50 years later.
54:57Always thanks to Alessandro Barbero,
54:59who smilingly tells us important truths
55:01. Do you miss the great leaders? Tell
55:04us on social media, and see you soon.
55:06Thank you.

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