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Wrongfully convicted/decades in prison-Part 1 interview with Jeffrey Deskovic and Lorenzo Johnson — Transcript

by Natasha Sherman · 4,625 words · 636 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00[Music]
0:20welcome my name is Natasha Sherman and I
0:23am your host I have two guests today my
0:26first guest is Jeffrey des Quebec he's
0:28been with us before in 1990 Jeff at the
0:32age of 17 was wrongfully convicted of
0:34rape and murder and he spent the next 16
0:37years in prison he was one of the quote
0:39lucky ones who was exonerated and
0:42released from prison after 16 years
0:45authorities knew his DNA did not match
0:48up that of the actual perpetrator who
0:50three years later went on to murder
0:53another young woman and mother of two
0:55but rogue police officers prosecutors
0:58and other law enforcement personnel
1:01knowingly and maliciously accused
1:03prosecuted and eventually secured his
1:06conviction Jeffrey is now in law school
1:09and he started the Jeffrey Desk avec
1:11foundation for justice which is
1:12committed to fighting wrongful
1:14conviction through raising awareness
1:16seeking legislative changes exonerating
1:19the wrongfully convicted both in DNA and
1:22non DNA cases and to the reintegration
1:25of exonerees welcome back thank you so
1:27much for having me here always so warm
1:29to be interviewed by you thank you and
1:33I'm so proud of you you know the fact
1:35that you have done what you've done with
1:38your life taken on law school and not
1:42only that but taken on working for other
1:45people who have who are in the situation
1:50you were in and making a difference from
1:52trying to get them out to trying to
1:55reintegrate them so I'm happy to have
1:56you back thank you very much my next
1:59guest is Lorenzo Johnson Lorenzo spent
2:02almost 22 years incarcerated for a crime
2:05he didn't commit
2:07wrongfully convicted of a 1995 murder in
2:10Harrisburg Pennsylvania he one release
2:13from
2:13his life without parole sentence in 2012
2:17after the Third Circuit Federal Court of
2:20Appeals ruled there was legally
2:22insufficient evidence for his conviction
2:25he remained free for four months after
2:29which the US Supreme Court reinstated
2:30the conviction ordered him back to
2:33prison to resume the sentence his
2:35defense was not allowed to file briefs
2:37or make oral arguments for his position
2:40and he returned to prison on June 14th
2:422012 with the support of the
2:46Pennsylvania Innocence Project he
2:48continued to fight for his freedom and
2:50on July 11th 2017
2:53he was resentenced and released from
2:56prison welcome thank you you know for
3:00most of us this sounds like a
3:02made-for-television story you know it's
3:04a we can go oh and oh and all that and
3:08have absolutely no idea what it's like
3:11to be convicted of a crime you didn't
3:15commit and then put in prison like
3:19that's it done done deal so I'm going to
3:24start with you because you know Jeff has
3:28shared his story and I invite people to
3:30look on my youtube channel
3:31Natasha Sherman and there are a couple
3:34of interviews with Jeff telling his very
3:37compelling story but let's talk about
3:39you right now so how old were you when
3:43you were convicted accused of in
3:46conviction you were 22 and I think I
3:51actually said that but so you were
3:55accused of killing someone I was accused
3:58of being there when it took place Oh
4:00being there when it took place okay and
4:04again you according to what I read you
4:09your attorney never interviewed you this
4:12was her first capital case I wasn't that
4:16capital cases first murder case okay
4:18first murder case and didn't interview
4:21you and how long did the process take
4:24pretty
4:26it took almost three years for me to go
4:28to trial but none of my alibi witnesses
4:30was interviewed and then love their
4:33witnesses basically was interview it was
4:36like shambles so you were just basically
4:41you were accused it took three weeks
4:43three years to get to trial and
4:44basically nobody was doing anything for
4:47you and nobody was it was just kind of
4:50let's wait for his trial and then send
4:53him off to jail as as the trial neared
4:57things began to change and when I say
5:00things begin to change it started from
5:02the police and it shrink we'll just way
5:05up my down to the prosecution office as
5:07far as what misconduct was constantly
5:10being in play like you know for example
5:14me having how about witnesses one or two
5:18of them or something will change these
5:20stories and testify for the prosecution
5:22I'll be noticed for me that they had
5:25different charges against them that was
5:28getting dismissed for they force
5:30testimony so this was starting to take
5:32place around me and I didn't know what
5:34was going on I'm a literate education
5:36wise at the time a little bit to the law
5:38at the time so you don't wondering like
5:40okay when I give the court everything
5:42can come out and I'll be set free but it
5:46just kept going going and going by the
5:48time I got to trial the motive that was
5:52the qisas bound over from the plea
5:53hearing all changed the whole theory
5:56changed once I got a child they lined up
5:59all this kind of false evidence and they
6:04kind of coerced your alibis to change
6:08their alibi testimony because they were
6:13under the law and they would have
6:15something to lose in this case my hair
6:18they couldn't put me on the scene one
6:20person put me on the scene I was never
6:22there so my alibi witnesses was crucial
6:25to me and the only way they felt I guess
6:29is they had a chance of a conviction for
6:32me is to have people put me on the scene
6:35all have people change their testimony
6:37that would have helped me
6:39right imagine you're sitting there in
6:42court and you think that you have these
6:44alibis and all of a sudden you hear them
6:47lying vanish as cold as that is in
6:51situations like that wrongful
6:55convictions a lot of us don't go to
6:57court to be lawyers you know it happens
7:00to a certain percentage of us you know
7:01anybody like Jeff was wrongfully
7:03convicted he's white on black it
7:06predominately happened in urban
7:08neighborhoods but it can happen to
7:09anybody we don't prepare ourselves for
7:13what's to come
7:13so when they police it's the strategic
7:17of misconduct and play you you're not
7:21ready for it's like trying to breathe
7:22underwater like they got unlimited
7:24resources like and you don't see it
7:28coming I think that's the biggest thing
7:30you don't see it coming because you
7:31can't prepare for it you not only don't
7:33see a common is if you got an in
7:35compensate attorney with you no
7:37disrespect to the two to the public
7:40defenders the court-appointed lawyers
7:42because I know some terrific public
7:44offenders in court lawyers but let's put
7:48it out there they're the most underpaid
7:51people a lot of cases you got cases
7:55where that's a capital case way of the
7:59Anthony Wright case where his public
8:01defender was paid $1,200 and this man is
8:04fighting for he got is definitely
8:06involved in this case it gets definitely
8:08and you mean to tell me that $1,200
8:10gonna secure of representation and
8:12adequate funds for investigations and
8:14things of that nature
8:15these are all elements of wrongful
8:17convictions yeah so and and it turns out
8:22from what I read that after you were
8:27released and then went back and I'd like
8:30to talk a little bit about that you
8:34found that there was a lot of withheld
8:37information in the police reports so as
8:43someone in the law now what do you what
8:49transpired and how did that happen yeah
8:52it was the it was um it was discovered
8:55through an investigation that happened
8:56after Lorenzo went went back to uh went
8:59back to prison that the sole witness
9:01that put him at the at the scene
9:03actually was an alternative suspect and
9:06that that information had been withheld
9:07from his attorney and at the motive
9:10witness actually had like a familial
9:11relationship with the main detectives
9:14mother that was also crucial material
9:16that had been withheld from Lorenzo's
9:19defense team so what does it feel like
9:22you're back in prison and you find out
9:24that all of this information was
9:27withheld from you what I found though
9:29about they can take your case discovery
9:34before your trial so you could put a
9:36sufficient defense on at trial but and a
9:40lot of wrongful conviction situations
9:43they withhold information that can asana
9:45beat you all clear you but the
9:47misconduct that we spoke about a minute
9:49ago
9:49it was over two hundred some innocent
9:52pages of my case discovery like it
9:54started from pains peas it goes started
9:57to that page nine I believe and then
9:59there's a have a co page that jumped 20
10:01pages this way then supplements wasn't
10:04added our page numbers wasn't adding up
10:05so I always knew it was something in
10:07there but they never turned it over and
10:09then they told me didn't exist and for
10:12long periods it's time I represented
10:13myself so they definitely wasn't gonna
10:16give it to me so I didn't have the right
10:18representation to go after it when I
10:21came when I was released and I had to
10:23return unfortunately I had the right
10:25support the supporting casts around me
10:28that was gonna dig hard for this and it
10:30wasn't gonna wait to later all four
10:32seasons gives a it's demanding that you
10:34turn it over that's when everything fell
10:36in my lap basically what I already knew
10:38they had I didn't know it was gonna be a
10:40bombshell like this but I knew it had to
10:42be something for them to keep it from me
10:44this long because if it was signed that
10:46I couldn't have used they would they
10:47gave it to me a long time ago is it no
10:51it's not there's a law called you know
10:53Brady from the case Brady versus
10:55Maryland but they're supposed to turn
10:56over all
10:57exculpatory material but they often
10:59don't and the gap in the system is that
11:01there's no criminal penalties for when
11:04the prosecutors do that and there
11:06no there's no civil penalties either I
11:07mean they have a memory ah you're right
11:10I I agree with you you're right but
11:12that's why the misconduct is prevalent
11:14because they know that they can get away
11:17with it and then make it even worse
11:19Natasha is even within the context of a
11:22defendant trying to get the wrongful
11:24conviction overturned is not even enough
11:26just to show that there was a Brady
11:28violation but then the courts have this
11:30additional analysis that they put in
11:32they determine whether or not something
11:33has been a a harmless error you know and
11:38obviously if it's harmless
11:39they wouldn't have bothered to engage in
11:41it in the first place so they did really
11:44stack the deck against you know
11:46defendants so when you first were and I
11:51read somewhere and I think you rode
11:52because you write a lot of blogs yes or
11:55articles yeah babe Laza novels on
11:58Huffington Post so yeah so I think I
12:03read somewhere where you said where some
12:06of the old-timers when you came in told
12:08you suggested that you get your GED and
12:10that you study the law and and you did
12:13that right yeah so that was really great
12:17advice and also great things you took it
12:19that's why you know off camera we spoken
12:22we we spoke earlier and we saw about you
12:24know it's not all bad people in prison
12:26but you got some people in prison that
12:28you don't want a million mouths closely
12:30affair these old-timers they I guess is
12:35they grew to like me because I was
12:37consistent about my innocence so they
12:38you know they had system me in little
12:40ways and that's probably like the best
12:42information I can't get behind the walls
12:44as far as get my education I also try
12:46regardless but the force like the
12:49portion unlike is education and assisted
12:52me with there was assisting me with the
12:53law when I was lost because the first
12:56book they gave you with the pennsylvania
12:58criminal rules or procedures now this is
13:00a book that probably consists of three
13:03to four thousand pages now somebody
13:05that's a little bit you put a book this
13:07big in front of i'm they looking at you
13:08like what opposed to do with this like
13:10and it was like once I'm sort of once I
13:14achieve my GED and I wrote the college
13:16classes you know my brain opened up
13:18there's a lot in the world
13:19a lot of words and law is Latin so you
13:22know you wouldn't know without a Lord
13:23that's nice so if you can't use a
13:25regular dictionary how you gonna lose a
13:26little dictionary so uh these came into
13:29play and as I got educated my eyes open
13:33to what what's a place woman yeah wow
13:35that's really impressive but so you're
13:39in there did you actually when you're in
13:41there belief like I'm never going to get
13:44out no I never I never adopted that
13:46attitude always no able to get artists
13:48in the wind that was my whole thing yeah
13:50yeah that's a con that's a common
13:52characteristic of people who are
13:53wrongfully I'm convicted and if we would
13:55have thought the other way then 95% of
13:58the time we would never really have
14:01people that's innocent that went that
14:03route you know because like I said you
14:07it's like trying to befriend the waters
14:09like a lot of people bust under that
14:11pressure of inside and they stop
14:13fighting and they give up when they can
14:15form the prison life yeah and you would
14:18never think that you know they was
14:20innocent but they gave up they don't
14:22want to fight anymore and you know I
14:24think the fact that you engaged and you
14:27got educated and and you were proactive
14:29but there are a lot of people who are on
14:31death row I interviewed a criminal
14:35attorney from California and he said
14:36there I think 747 inmates waiting on
14:40death row
14:41most of them people of color all of them
14:43poor so if you're in prison and you
14:46you're innocent and you're not educated
14:50and you don't get educated
14:53who's going to advocate for you and you
14:55can't advocate for yourself I mean it's
14:57just you know unbelievable it's like I
15:00came and say that you'll be forgotten
15:02because people don't even know yes yes
15:04no about you in the first place
15:06yes yeah I want to ask you you know so
15:11you got out and they said okay you know
15:13there wasn't enough evidence and here
15:15you are like oh my god free at last and
15:19then four months later they say oops
15:24those that like that was the second
15:28Business Week
15:29yeah I mean is maybe you can get into a
15:33little bit you know getting the call
15:34from you know attorney my wife got a
15:36quote from my lead attorney Michael
15:39Wiseman and uh I might work I was doing
15:42the flag at that time for San Mateo
15:44construction who I still work for now he
15:48was crying during the call so it was
15:50distorted so I didn't know where you saw
15:52him on the morning but only thing I
15:53heard was your conviction has been
15:56reinstated that's at the end of the call
15:58I had the end of his sentence I heard
16:00that so I actually got numb car thought
16:03like maybe he said something wrong I
16:05heard it wrong then he went on to tell
16:07me what took place
16:08you know United States Supreme Court on
16:09May 29th they made the decision her
16:12career of reinstating my conviction
16:14without allowing my legal team to file
16:17briefs or argue normal procedures or
16:19than one day so I was numb like that's
16:23any innocent person who got out of
16:25prison their worst nightmare that took
16:28place with me like it is honoring that
16:33the courts would change their mind he
16:34that's been that's the worst law in
16:37there for innocent in the instant for
16:39the accident what's the worst nightmare
16:40and then tell you if I gotta go back you
16:43know and I was numb like I didn't have
16:46no feeling I can't imagine you numb
16:49because you get flashes in your head
16:50what you went through I would this 16 a
16:52half years so everything is numb like
16:54everything I got start all over again
16:56and as far as legal wise because you
17:00can't argue the issues that you raised
17:01up you know they got you out they over
17:04the United States Supreme Court the
17:05highest court now you got to go back
17:07downstairs and start all over again and
17:08try to mount up another defense you know
17:11I'm out up some new evidence that show
17:12that you're innocent so it was it was
17:15numb to I was numb I was numb you know I
17:19had called the foundation Jeff
17:21Foundation and I told him what was going
17:23on I had left work drove down says
17:25Jeffrey deficits Foundation and I just
17:28went in the back office and by myself
17:30and just you know trying to gather my
17:33thoughts while the lawyers that was
17:35there was back and forth for the
17:37Pennsylvania lawyers trying to find out
17:38what what could be done what happened
17:40like you know
17:41we go from here and it was like a sort
17:44of East I was a couple family members
17:45that know what took place but I can't
17:48even tell you how I felt I didn't have
17:49no feeling I was numb like and within
17:51how much of it how long did you have
17:54after he let you know to then show up
17:57from May 29th to June 12th okay so you
18:01have two weeks to process this and to
18:03decide whether you're gonna bolt
18:06let me just say this that in during that
18:08interview during that intervening period
18:10you know Lorenzo and I made a number of
18:12moves we tried on a political level you
18:14know I contacted a number of elected
18:16officials I knew I brought Lorenzo with
18:18me up to Albany we were to participate
18:21in a press conference that I was doing
18:23in connection with the Innocence Project
18:25on wrongful conviction legislation but I
18:28just threw him in front of the cameras
18:29you know if he at their press conference
18:32now you know cuz we were desperate we're
18:33trying to stop him from going back but
18:35all the moves we made it didn't work
18:37nobody was willing to do anything and so
18:41in the end we had to we had to go on
18:44this terrible car ride together you know
18:47Lorenzo asked me called me up and one
18:50day and you know he asked me to do the
18:51most difficult thing I've ever had to do
18:53in my life after being exonerated myself
18:57he said Jeff listen I need you to drive
18:59me back to prison man cos I got no one
19:01to take me and otherwise I'm gonna just
19:03be going on this lonely ride and taking
19:05buses you know and yeah so I want it so
19:09bad until you know that I can't drive
19:11you back to prison and resume a life
19:13without parole sentence on a case you
19:15were innocent of but I couldn't because
19:17I couldn't just have you on the buses
19:19and so that ride was oh my god that ride
19:22was terrible there it's like taking
19:24someone to you know an execution yes yes
19:28in a way
19:29you look at it it was very mentally like
19:36how can I say training nine that's the
19:38understatement yeah it was like this you
19:41gonna show the mind it was like it was
19:44just think about it you're leaving the
19:47confines of your family to voluntarily
19:52drive yourself back to our natural life
19:54sentence
19:55no parole knowing you were innocent the
19:58system failed you already and now
20:01they're saying oh go back come back and
20:03try again you know it was like I wish it
20:07on no one like you know what I went
20:09through like that day of that Drive
20:12going back was like have you asked
20:17anybody like you ask yourself would you
20:18do that you play am i doing that like
20:20I'm going up other direction don't get
20:22me wrong I had them thoughts I
20:24entertained everything and what had you
20:26not run hmm what had you decide to going
20:29yeah I was innocent and I had a nice
20:31supporting cast around me and I felt I
20:34had what it neat I had what was needed
20:36to win right anything that it was gonna
20:40take this long you know I didn't think
20:42that surged is turned out the way they
20:44turned out but uh the ride going back
20:48was like it was surreal because it was
20:51like we both was playing different roles
20:53at different times half the time I was
20:55gonna let him look grunge it's gonna be
20:57alright bro we're gonna get this dude
20:59the investigation is gonna take place
21:00you know when I turn this thing around
21:02four or five months you'll be back in
21:04court you know and half the time I'm
21:06telling him that to comfort him and then
21:09like five minutes later he's telling the
21:11same thing to me there's no I mean just
21:13so we're alternating roles and then and
21:16then also it felt crazy what we were
21:18doing where was rotating drivers and
21:20then on top of that people are calling
21:22Lorenzo in and up and like everybody is
21:26telling him what are you nuts you're
21:27going back where well you know I turn
21:29that car around and go in the opposite
21:31direction yes he's got a lot of calls
21:34like that and then he's explained half
21:36the people don't understand the legal
21:37context so he's trying to educate them
21:39really really quickly also then we had
21:43the less the like our version of the
21:44Last Supper a lot to last meal yeah yeah
21:48just before we turned himself in it was
21:50I don't think anyone can imagine it you
21:52know coming it's almost like and this is
21:54a horrible thing to say but it's like
21:56people heading to the concentration camp
21:58yeah you know you're getting on the
22:00train you have some hope that you might
22:02survive but logic tells you you won't
22:05yes exactly you know and for me
22:08in the parking lot the prison you know I
22:11gave Lorenzo money to try to reset
22:14himself up back inside stuff that he
22:16would need help but you were tired you
22:18know the typewriter and creature
22:19comforts stuff you gotta get his clothes
22:21and other stuff for postage and legal
22:23copies and I'm not giving him I don't
22:25know maybe five six hundred hours and
22:27and I'm thinking like after I did that
22:29and he gets out the car walks I felt so
22:31inadequate like the money that then
22:34would do for the overall situation oh
22:37and I drove the car out and I pulled
22:40over on the side of the road and it took
22:42me like 12 minutes just to get my
22:44emotions under control I felt like I was
22:46like abandoning him in this awful
22:48looking building with with the barbed
22:49wire and it's good help they put the
22:52handcuffs on you you're outside the
22:53building you're there and they got to
22:55put the handcuffs on the walk to take
22:56this you know come on it was all and
22:59headed to the what's your feeling as you
23:02like and those gates closed behind you
23:06it's different because I had to get
23:08myself in a mental place you know
23:11because when you fight in wrongful
23:14convictions you don't have the luxury to
23:16entertain a lot of things a lot of times
23:18you got to be emotional it's a lot of
23:20things because the time you're gonna
23:22entertain that it's going to be time
23:24away from your fight so me myself I knew
23:27what I was up against so it's like how
23:29some fighters say I got my game face on
23:32you got a lock that mine stay then I'm
23:35coming here I'm not coming here to be
23:37cordial with you I'm coming here to
23:39sitting so my timers up and get out of
23:42here and when I said my time was up I
23:43mean my legal team do what they got to
23:45do the full winning sense and i'ma walk
23:46back out that door I came in and that
23:49was that like I you know walking back
23:52they they when I walked in the building
23:55a couple of guards was mad and then some
23:58was happy so I never you know I didn't
24:01understand what was going on then ever
24:04dawned on me
24:05they had me bets was I gonna show up or
24:08not and some of them won someone lost so
24:11I'm looking at it in a sickening to me
24:13like you know who does stuff like that
24:15in this type of situation and when I'm
24:19walking back in it's
24:20inhuman act oh yeah in a human
24:23environment yeah so I'm being put back
24:25in cages clothes being tooken thrown
24:28away you know Hey I went I wanted to see
24:33this I want my brain spiraled for the
24:35first week or two like I went to a dark
24:37place like you know I came in with the
24:40life in mind state but when you getting
24:43stuff
24:43you go from a five-star restaurant then
24:45you can't sign slid under the door slid
24:47through the door and you're not gonna
24:49have no appetite for that type of stuff
24:51so I will talk dark place for like you
24:54know first ten days a dark place real
24:57dark like I don't want to talk don't
24:59want to eat you know trying to find out
25:01how to dose this all happen but when you
25:04fighting against people who
25:06intentionally maliciously prosecute you
25:10and they know you're innocent it's like
25:11you have no luxury you don't have no
25:13luxury to take a second off you must
25:16fight fight fight fight fight because
25:18they're not gonna just let you walk off
25:20the door the other prisoners they were
25:22making fun of you to write some of them
25:24that you even came back what what are
25:26you doing Oh were you you know what you
25:27say that would be the case but me myself
25:31I don't have really that's harmless for
25:33that cuz you're not gonna laugh in my
25:34face about me being in prison for Salani
25:36do that won't sit colleague with me cuz
25:38I wasn't the one that could hold my
25:40composure on that but you have people to
25:42say well we're crazy what are you doing
25:44back you know look what they did to him
25:46why would you come back look what they
25:47did you so that was taking place that
25:50people that I knew for 10 15 years that
25:53I was real close with that me coming
25:55back the president broke our friendship
25:56up because they was mad at me from
25:58coming back and you could get that you
26:00know I'm gonna make a request we're
26:04almost out of time in this half-hour
26:05that we continue this we take a break
26:08and then we continue this because I want
26:11to hear more of your story and I think
26:12it's important for people to hear more
26:15of your story and what people should be
26:17paying attention to
26:18alright my name is Natasha Sherman thank
26:22you for joining us and please stay tuned
26:24for part two
26:25[Music]
26:46you
26:55[Music]

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This page contains the full transcript of Wrongfully convicted/decades in prison-Part 1 interview with Jeffrey Deskovic and Lorenzo Johnson by Natasha Sherman, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 4,625 words across 636 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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