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WORLD'S #1 COUPLES THERAPIST: "If Your Partner Says THIS, the Relationship Is in TROUBLE!" — Transcript

by Jay Shetty Podcast · 17,686 words · 2,888 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Couples come in basically saying,
0:01"Doctor, can you change my partner? I
0:03think you guys should just break up and
0:05stop torturing each other or I'm just
0:07not the right person for you."
0:08Dr. Orna Guralnik is a clinical
0:10psychologist, psychoanalyst, and a
0:12writer. The star of the groundbreaking
0:14show Couples Therapy, she explores the
0:16depths of human relationships and
0:18trauma. Everyone feels like they've
0:20dated a narcissist. How accurate are
0:22they? 100% accurate.
0:25When you find couples coming with
0:26financial issues, is it really about
0:28money?
0:29They want to feel like, "No, money
0:30doesn't matter." But it matters to
0:32everyone. Do more people want more
0:34intimacy or more sex?
0:37What's the first hard question you
0:40should ask yourself in a relationship?
0:42Can I give? What about when someone
0:44feels,
0:45"I've given them too many chances and
0:47they're just not shifting"?
0:48That would have been a situation where I
0:50would say that the pain of divorce is
0:52worth it. How do you know your
0:54relationship is strong enough?
0:55I would say
0:58the number one health and wellness
1:00podcast.
1:00Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the
1:03only Jay Shetty.
1:06What would you say are the top three
1:08things you hear when someone first comes
1:11in to your office? I often joke about it
1:14that that
1:16most couples come in saying that they
1:18have problems in communication.
1:21Now, I understand that it looks like a
1:24problem in communication because the way
1:26couples interact with each other is by
1:28mostly by talking, although there's a
1:29lot of nonverbal talking through one's
1:32feet. But where whatever's going on
1:35between them manifests is going to be in
1:37their communication. So, couples
1:40typically think, "If only we could
1:41communicate better, our problems would
1:44be solved." Um so, that's the number one
1:46thing that people come in with.
1:48Then there are particular kind of
1:52we could say content areas that couples
1:55come complaining about depending on
1:57where they are in their life cycle.
2:00Very common one is division of labor.
2:03It's not fair. Who's doing what more?
2:06Questions around intimacy.
2:09Whether it's sex or spending time
2:11together or connecting.
2:13Then there are ways in which
2:17their early childhood manifests in their
2:21couples' life.
2:23But I'd say those are like the key
2:25areas. So, it sounded like when you were
2:27saying people come in and they think
2:30communication's the issue.
2:31Yeah. The look on your face was that's
2:34not really the issue.
2:35Right. So, what is the issue? Right.
2:37Well, there are many issues, but the
2:38thing is when you when you guide people
2:42into how to communicate better
2:45and how to really speak and listen to
2:47each other and get to the heart of the
2:49issue, usually there are real issues
2:51that are underlying the issues of
2:53communication and
2:54often people make communication
2:57difficult
2:58because it's hard for them to touch the
3:01real issues. So, they
3:04defensively create problems in
3:06communication.
3:08So,
3:09when you're asking what are the real
3:11issues, at least from my perspective, I
3:13think if I had to like summarize it in
3:15the
3:16in the most succinct way, I would say
3:19the real issue that couples face is that
3:22they're
3:24building a relationship or with another
3:27person who's different from them.
3:29And that is really hard.
3:32It's very exciting. It's a source of
3:33growth. It's it's a source of desire.
3:37It's a source of lots of good things,
3:39but it's also incredibly difficult and
3:43annoying.
3:44Whether it's like the small habits of
3:46another person or the deepest core of
3:49who they are and their values and their
3:51politics. There are many ways in which
3:54the otherness of your partner infringes
3:57on you and
3:58puts you in all sorts of like difficult
4:00positions. Mhm. Yeah, I mean, I'm
4:03thinking back to it. I remember when
4:06my wife and I when we were just dating
4:08and when we lived together for a brief
4:11amount of time, that was when I was
4:13like, oh, I think we could be good
4:14together because it was it felt easy
4:18to go to work, be in the same space. We
4:21kind of had a good distribution of
4:23household responsibilities. Like we we
4:25felt like we had a flow. It's really
4:27interesting to me because
4:29when I look earlier in my dating life
4:32and when I speak to so many people
4:33myself, sometimes you can be such good
4:37partners when you're boyfriend and
4:38girlfriend or whatever your makeup may
4:40be, but then when you move in together,
4:42you're not as good roommates. Yeah.
4:44And it feels like that transition is
4:46where so much of this is discovered.
4:49Yes, that is probably the first round in
4:52which things are discovered, like the
4:54living together.
4:56And you can think of it as
4:58compatibility.
4:59Some people just have similar habits or,
5:02you know, they they like the dishwasher
5:04loaded a particular way similarly or
5:07and and it makes it easy.
5:10But if you if you go kind of
5:13deeper under, I think part of it is how
5:17do you respond to otherness? How do you
5:19respond to someone who's different from
5:21you in the smallest way and in the
5:22biggest way? And for some of us,
5:25differentness poses
5:28a lot of issues, a lot of problems. It
5:30feels
5:31intrusive. It makes you question your
5:33own beliefs. It's
5:36you you you immediately get into
5:38questioning who's right, who's wrong,
5:40who's top, who's bottom.
5:42Otherness can trigger a lot of stuff,
5:44whatever the otherness is. And for some
5:46people it's more easygoing. It's easier
5:49to just accept the fact that people have
5:52different habits. Part of it is
5:54compatibility, and part of it is like,
5:57can you really are you ready to tolerate
5:59another person and to
6:01adjust to another person and and change
6:04in response to letting someone else into
6:06your life. I'm really appreciating the
6:08language with that you're explaining
6:10this because I genuinely don't believe
6:12I've heard it that simply before.
6:15And well, and I say that because
6:18I think we often make it about do we
6:20have compatibility, do we have
6:22chemistry, do we have connection? And
6:25really you're so right that it's feeling
6:28othered or otherness
6:30that really causes all of our conflict.
6:32And and I have I have a Oh, I want to
6:35want to apologize. We never introduced
6:36Nico. I think Nico's making me aware
6:39now. Nico's saying like, wait, you left
6:40me out.
6:41me?
6:41This beautiful being that we have
6:43roaming around us at all times is Nico,
6:45who we're very grateful is here and is
6:47even more beautiful in person. When
6:49Radhi and I first started living
6:50together, we found that we had very a
6:52very small example, we had very
6:54different routines in how we liked to
6:58host and entertain. So, if we had
7:00friends over,
7:01we both want to have dinner with them.
7:03But then after having dinner, I want to
7:05hang out on the couch, I want to talk to
7:07them, I want to relax, I want to spend
7:09time with them. Radhi wants to get into
7:11the kitchen and clean
7:13while everyone's there.
7:14Right. And then go to hanging.
7:16Yeah. And I want to hang out with
7:18everyone, and then I want to go and
7:21clean when everyone's left.
7:22Totally get it. And mine comes from how
7:24I was raised, so that's what we did in
7:26my house. And hers comes from how she
7:28was raised.
7:29Right. Now, I don't think there's a
7:31better or worse, I think it's a
7:32preference. But what I found was that
7:35when I would hang out straight after
7:38eating and I wouldn't clean up, there
7:39were times when Radhi would see that as
7:41me not valuing her Right. Shirking
7:43responsibility.
7:44Exactly. Shirking responsibility or you
7:46expect me to do everything.
7:47Yeah. And that's not how I felt.
7:49Right.
7:49But that's how it came across.
7:51Right. That's why what you're saying
7:52resonates with me so strongly because
7:55the otherness of activity also leads to
7:57the otherness of emotion. And all of a
7:59sudden now you're filling in the gaps of
8:03that space of being othered. So to her
8:06it became I'm disrespected, I'm not
8:08valued. I you're shirking
8:10responsibility, you're lazy, whatever it
8:12may have been. Exactly.
8:14it became well, I'm just trying to hang
8:16out. What's wrong with you? Why can't
8:17you just have fun? You know, why do you
8:19have to be so fixated on cleaning up?
8:22Like why are you so whatever it may be,
8:24right? So now
8:25Yeah. Can I Of course.
8:26borrow this from from my book?
8:28yeah. Please. That's
8:29Cuz this is like a perfect example. And
8:31just the way you said it also, that
8:34that's exactly it. That there's a space
8:36of difference and you don't understand
8:38why you're different and you immediately
8:40start
8:41building theories that are basically
8:45meant to answer the question
8:49I how am I right and what's wrong with
8:51you?
8:52Right? Because difference we can't just
8:54it's very hard for us to just let
8:56difference sit there and just say we're
8:59just different. And how are we going to
9:01move with this difference? What's the
9:02best way to move with it? We immediately
9:04start like involving I don't know what
9:07it is. It's like our ego or or something
9:10about who we are that's at question with
9:13difference and that's where a lot of the
9:16trouble starts coming in. Like you build
9:19theories. Like she's building a theory
9:20that you're like shirking responsibility
9:23or oh, here is another guy just wanting
9:26the woman in the kitchen. Yeah. And
9:28you're like oh, here is a wife that
9:29doesn't want to have fun. She's just
9:31going to be like
9:33nagging me to do this, that and the
9:35other. I mean,
9:36we know the theories. It's very easy to
9:38kind of inject theories in there.
9:40But, part of what happens in in couples
9:44work, and you know, you don't know you
9:45don't have to do it through therapy, but
9:47part of what happens is
9:49you start tracking the automatic way
9:53that you assign all these scripts to
9:55your partner
9:56to avoid just dealing with the
9:58discomfort of otherness.
10:01I think of it sometimes like a thorn,
10:03like a thorn that gets stuck in you that
10:05disrupts your way of thinking about
10:08things. Like suddenly there's another
10:10way of doing things, and you're like,
10:11"Wait a minute. Do I have to think about
10:13how I'm doing things at all? Do I have
10:15to question what I'm doing? And how am I
10:17going to respond to that provocation?"
10:20Mhm. And what's the difference between
10:23like I feel like for a lot of people
10:26they maybe in the beginning they'll just
10:28fold and do what their partner wants
10:30because it's easier. Right. And then
10:31maybe many years later they'll be like,
10:34"I changed for you. I did that for you.
10:35I did all these things for you, but you
10:36didn't value me, and you know, you
10:38haven't changed." Whatever it may be.
10:40Totally. There's a lot of different
10:42versions of that. That's one version.
10:44What's the right balance between
10:47looking for the right solution and
10:49looking for I I'm not a fan of the word
10:52compromise. Mhm. What are your thoughts
10:54on the word compromise?
10:55Uh could you say a little bit more just
10:57about That's interesting.
10:59I don't love So, for example, for me
11:02I don't believe I think compromise is us
11:04both saying, "Well, okay. Well, I'll do
11:06a little bit of this for you if you do a
11:08little bit of this for me."
11:10Whereas to me it's like, "Well, can we
11:11work together to figure out what makes
11:13the most sense?" And what is actually
11:15the most practical best effective
11:18solution where everyone's happier? And I
11:20don't think that means some like for
11:22example, with this situation
11:24we have now believed that it is nicer to
11:27host as long as Radhi has the peace of
11:29mind that everything will be clean that
11:31evening.
11:32Yeah. We've come to a conclusion which I
11:34don't think is a compromise for either
11:35of us. Right. It's a feeling that we
11:37both found a solution together. Yeah.
11:40And compromise to me makes me feel like
11:41I gave up something or I lost out on
11:43something or she did. Yeah. And I don't
11:45want her to give up something for me
11:47that's important. If she said to me,
11:49"Jay, it is so important to me that we
11:51clean up right away." I would value that
11:53and I would do it. I don't want to do it
11:54because I feel forced to or I have to.
11:56Yeah.
11:57That's my issue with it. I'm thinking
11:58about how I work it out with couples
12:00when
12:02first of all, couples need to
12:05abandon the idea that one of them is
12:07completely right and one of them is
12:08wrong.
12:10Right? You You You want to approach the
12:12difference with the idea that you're
12:15equal partners, that you each have a
12:17valid point of view, even if it's
12:19different. And that's actually not an
12:21easy thing to get to.
12:22It's so hard.
12:23So hard, right? I see that being the
12:25biggest challenge for couples.
12:26Yes. And it would be interesting to
12:27think about like why is it so hard for
12:29us? But it's very hard. But once you
12:31approach a difference in terms of it
12:33just simply being two equal partners
12:36struggling with difference,
12:38then you want to create a space, and I
12:41agree with you that to simply compromise
12:44is sometimes just a quick fix and it
12:46kind of it's like a band-aid that
12:48underneath it can breed resentments.
12:50And and you can eventually somehow go
12:52back to the idea that it's not fair, I
12:54compromise more than you, or
12:57but to do what you're suggesting doing,
12:59which is to really put both minds to it
13:02and arrive at a conclusion together, is
13:05actually really hard. You have to
13:06overcome
13:09both a lot of your own convictions,
13:10selfish needs,
13:12and really work for the good of the
13:15relationship, of the total, the total
13:17good.
13:18That's why I often say that couples form
13:20between them like a political system.
13:22It's like the first political system of
13:24how do you resolve difference? Are you
13:25going to be like autocratic or
13:27democratic in terms of how you resolve a
13:29difference?
13:30I like that. Sometimes I go back to um
13:33reminding people of how when you have
13:36two kids playing and wanting to play
13:38with the same toy,
13:40like how do you coach kids on what to do
13:43in that case?
13:45Do you take turns? Do you give both kids
13:48the same toy? Do you just remove the
13:50kids from the situation and say, "Oh,
13:51they can't play well together." Do you
13:53leave one kid crying, having to
13:56compromise in a way that was just really
13:58depriving for them and they were not
14:00ready for?
14:01All this to say that this solution that
14:04you're suggesting, which is to really
14:05put your minds together and figure out a
14:07solution that is good for everyone, is
14:09hard. I do think it's the best one, but
14:12I think it requires a certain kind of
14:15honesty and
14:18willingness to give up a certain kind of
14:22investment, selfish investment
14:25in the thing that it that you believe
14:27in. You have to like relax your
14:28convictions. It makes so much sense to
14:30me because I feel like
14:32most issues are this. Yeah. And most
14:37people are not solving this.
14:38Yeah. And we're lost trying to solve
14:41some other puzzle. Yeah. And I couldn't
14:44agree with you more that whether I'm
14:46talking to a family member, a friend, a
14:48coaching client, or I'm watching
14:50something on TV or hearing from someone
14:51about something,
14:53this is the problem.
14:54Yep. And this is the root of it that we
14:56don't want to accept that someone else
14:59may be right and we may be wrong.
15:01Yeah. That someone else may have a
15:02better idea than ours. Yeah. And ours
15:05may be worse. And that the way their
15:06parents did things might actually
15:08supersede the way our parents did
15:10things.
15:10Yeah. And we don't like that.
15:12Yeah. Because it makes us feel
15:14almost disloyal Mhm. to our own
15:17upbringing. Yeah.
15:19There's like a feeling of I'm betraying
15:22Mhm. what my parents did, I'm betraying
15:24tradition. Yep. There's a ego conflict
15:27there of but this is my identity, this
15:30is who I am, and by telling me there's
15:33another way, a better way, you're almost
15:35making me feel like my identity is
15:38becoming more and more insignificant day
15:40by day.
15:40Yeah. And I'm losing something that
15:42grounds me. What's going to happen to me
15:44if I don't have this identity? Exactly.
15:46loyalty can be to to parents, it can be
15:49to
15:50to a particular group that you're
15:52associated with, it could be to your
15:55religion,
15:56and it can be to a an ideology or a
15:59belief system that that you feel like
16:01your your self kind of depends on. No
16:04one wants to be in a relationship where
16:06their partner is just waiting for them
16:07to change for the relationship to really
16:10start. We're self-centered.
16:12We've got like, you know, the the our
16:15perceptive field and we don't really see
16:19the other.
16:20And working through that and and
16:23getting to a more humble place where you
16:26understand that you've been more selfish
16:29and then in certain ways you are
16:30exploiting your partner, it's an
16:32important piece of the work. There's a
16:34certain level of acceptance that has to
16:36happen. Of course, we want to change and
16:38get better and grow with each other, but
16:41you can't really be in a conditional
16:43relationship. That's
16:46not going to work. How do you open up
16:49to the idea
16:52that someone else's value
16:55may be helpful without devaluing
16:57yourself? Almost, how do you open up to
16:59the idea that someone else and you can
17:02build something together without feeling
17:04like you're losing and merging yourself?
17:06Because I think what's interesting here
17:08is the person often with the better idea
17:11Mhm. is also not doing it to find a
17:14common solution. They also just want you
17:16to go their way.
17:17And so it's also not being led
17:19perfectly, if that makes sense.
17:20Right. You know, ideally you want to
17:22create conditions where it stops being
17:26about who's right, who's wrong, but
17:29again it's for the the the good of
17:31everyone. Like the
17:33ideally you want kind of the questions
17:36of the ego to kind of drop to the
17:38background
17:39and to really get into the state of mind
17:42where both participants feel
17:45acknowledged, safe, and they don't have
17:47to worry about their their identity or
17:50their ego or their or their personal
17:52investment, and they have a feeling that
17:54they're going to gain something for the
17:57good of the couple or the family or the
18:00unit, that there's something
18:02that exceeds them that will benefit from
18:05this. And and to get there,
18:07there are many ways to get there, but um
18:11I know what I try to do in my practice
18:13is to create
18:15first of all, a sense of you know, what
18:17people call now in in in popular
18:20language like a a safe space.
18:22And what does that mean? It means a
18:24space in which
18:26what matters to you in a deep way is
18:29heard, is respected. You may not
18:32necessarily get exactly your way, but
18:35you feel on a basic human level that
18:38your dignity, your your
18:41the things you care about that really
18:43matter to you are seen and respected,
18:46and that whoever's negotiating with you
18:48will take that into account, not just
18:51kind of, you know,
18:53bulldoze over you.
18:55And when people feel cared for in this
18:56way
18:57by the therapist or eventually by their
18:59partner, they're willing to do a lot. I
19:02think people we're all mostly we have
19:05like an incredibly
19:07generous, creative spirit within us that
19:10if we stop feeling threatened,
19:12we we want to operate from there
19:15for the better of everyone. And I think
19:17when you get to a solution where one
19:20person feels, "Oh, I got my way and the
19:22other one didn't."
19:25It never ultimately feels good. It might
19:27feel good in the moment like you got a
19:28momentary win, but you're left with this
19:31kind of churning uncomfortable feeling
19:34that you took something that you
19:35shouldn't have taken from someone. Yeah.
19:37I think I think the challenge that
19:40people experience
19:41is like let's say it's the holidays
19:44and
19:45I'm saying to you I'm like,
19:48"I know we're going to your families for
19:49Christmas.
19:50I just want you to know that I really
19:52feel uncomfortable around your parents
19:54because I feel like they're always
19:57you know, picking at my career or
20:00they're always making me feel a bit
20:02insecure about something like this or
20:04maybe they're somewhat
20:06downplaying some of my achievements or
20:08whatever. I just want you to know that
20:09sometimes I feel triggered." Like let's
20:11say I said that to my partner.
20:12Yeah.
20:13Very untrue for my life, but But
20:15actually it's a very common thing. It's
20:16a very common thing for a lot of
20:18And your partner doesn't have what I
20:20find today is people don't have the
20:22capability
20:24to validate you
20:26Right.
20:26without feeling like they're
20:27invalidating themselves.
20:29Yeah. So the person responding to that
20:31goes, "How can you say that about my
20:32parents? They love you. I mean they love
20:34you. Like what are you talking about?
20:35Like oh my god, they they've got you an
20:37amazing gift. Like it's a surprise. Like
20:38you don't even know. Like you know, oh
20:39my god, they were just asking about you
20:40yesterday." And you're like, "No, I get
20:42that. I'm not saying they're not loving,
20:44but I just feel like I get really
20:45triggered because of this, this, and
20:47this." And they're like, "Look, you're
20:48just crazy. Like just you know, don't
20:50worry about it."
20:50Yeah.
20:51just it's not a big deal. And it's not
20:53that that person is mean your your
20:56partner's not being mean, but they don't
20:57realize because they're so scared or
20:59they'll say something to you like, "I
21:00can't believe you can say that about my
21:02parents. My parents are loving wonderful
21:03people." And now you feel really hurt
21:06and pushed away
21:07Yeah. because you're like, "Well, wait a
21:08minute." So, I find that often when
21:10people share how they actually feel,
21:13Mhm.
21:13the person on the receiving side doesn't
21:15know how to receive that. Totally.
21:17Because they're scared that if they
21:18accept that, then then they have to
21:20accept that their parents are the worst
21:21people on the planet, or whatever else
21:23comes with that criticism. How do we How
21:25do we kind of wrap our head around that?
21:27Yeah, you're you're capturing something
21:29very significant. I think first of all,
21:32just to understand why is that kind of
21:34moment so difficult before even trying
21:36to think of the solution.
21:39I think one of the thing it brings up
21:40for people, let's say to to go with the
21:42example you're raising, it brings up
21:45both conflicting loyalties, what you
21:48were saying earlier, loyalty to your
21:49family of origin, loyalty to your
21:51culture, loyalty to yourself, your sense
21:54of goodness,
21:55versus your loyalty to taking care of
21:58your partner and caring about their
21:59feelings.
22:01That's a real
22:02inner conflict that that kind of
22:04predicament puts the receiving partner
22:06in. They're conflicted between these
22:09loyalties.
22:10Just to underline something here, to be
22:12in a state of inner conflict is
22:14difficult. It's difficult for all of us.
22:17We like simple solutions. We like right
22:19or wrong. We like good or bad. We don't
22:22like "I love my parents. They're
22:24awesome. They've taken such good care of
22:26me, but they're also hurting my
22:27partner."
22:29It It's
22:30It's very uncomfortable for all of us to
22:32be in inner conflict. So,
22:35to understand that putting your your
22:38partner in that position is already
22:40asking them to sit in a difficult
22:41position for themselves.
22:43So, what to do in that case?
22:46I think what I do when I work with
22:49couples when they're in that kind of
22:50predicament is
22:53I help both of them understand the
22:55difficulties they're going through in
22:58having the conversation.
23:00Not the solution, but why is the
23:02conversation difficult? Let's say the
23:05receiving partner whose parents are
23:07criticized, I might slow them down
23:11and first of all ask them to talk about
23:15what kind of position that puts them in.
23:17Like to try to
23:19describe the inner conflict it puts them
23:21in. Like their love for their parents,
23:24and I ask the partner to understand that
23:27they're asking their partner to
23:30position themselves
23:31away from their parents and that's a
23:33hard thing to do.
23:35And I'm asking the the receiving partner
23:38to understand that
23:41the person who's let's say criticizing
23:43their parents or talking about being
23:44triggered is also a complex person who's
23:47talking about having multiple kinds of
23:49feelings. They can both appreciate the
23:51parents, appreciate their connection to
23:53the parents, and have another kind of
23:55feeling. We're talking about kind of
23:58expanding the the spectrum of what
24:01people can hear and feel.
24:03Hear from each other, feel in
24:04themselves, and calm down about it. It's
24:07okay to have conflicting multiple
24:10feelings. And nothing has to be like an
24:13immediate resolution. Okay, that means
24:15I'm never coming to Thanksgiving with
24:17your parents or
24:18I'm going to be a jerk and not talk to
24:20your father.
24:22It's okay to have all these feelings and
24:24sit and eat the turkey. Yeah, a lot of I
24:26feel like a lot of men
24:28feel caught in between and their wife if
24:32they're in a
24:32Absolutely.
24:33heterosexual relationship. Like
24:35there's this conflict of oh my gosh,
24:38I've got to choose between my mom and my
24:40wife.
24:41Yeah. Or my girlfriend or whatever it
24:43may be whatever it may be.
24:44Which is true. Which is true.
24:45It's true. You have to make a
24:47transition. When you get involved with a
24:49significant other, you're making a
24:51transition. I mean, I love the fact that
24:53you brought up the idea of loyalties,
24:55which is so powerful for all of us.
24:58Loyalties to family, loyalties to ideas.
25:01There is an element of making a
25:03transition from belonging to one group
25:07to belonging to a new family or new
25:11group, and and that is hard.
25:14It's hard for the person, and it's hard
25:16for the mother, and it's hard for
25:18everyone. Let's talk about that, because
25:19I think culturally and different
25:21cultures have different expectations,
25:22too. So, for example, in the Indian
25:24culture Oof. Yeah, it's generally seen
25:27that the woman becomes a part of the
25:29man's family. Now, that's a very
25:31traditional idea. I was very fortunate
25:33to grow up in a home that was far more
25:35broad-minded than that, and we don't I
25:37don't subscribe to it at all.
25:38What what generation are you? I'm like
25:41first generation in in England. Yeah,
25:44in England. Yeah, first generation in
25:45England. I definitely don't subscribe to
25:47that idea. To me, it's
25:50dehumanizing of the individual who kind
25:53of becomes like oh, you were You're like
25:54an object.
25:55Yeah, you're like an object that's now
25:56been placed over. Now, do I believe that
25:58we're part of each other's families? Of
25:59course.
26:00Mhm. But I think for me, it was very
26:02clear that we were now building
26:04something together. Yeah. And that
26:06became the priority. And the buildings
26:09that we both came from
26:11were homes that we could always visit
26:13and be a part of, but we had to be very
26:15careful in curating the home. And I I
26:18will explain this the way I like couples
26:19to think about it, because I know a lot
26:21of people who when I say this to them
26:23they get rubbed the wrong way, because
26:24they're like what about culture? What
26:25about tradition? What about my family
26:27values? Going back to loyalty. Yeah. And
26:30I like people to think about it like
26:31designing a home. And we were talking
26:33about that earlier. Yeah. So, you grew
26:35up in a certain home and your partner
26:38grew up in a certain home. And I'm
26:39guessing when you move into a home, or
26:41you've rented an apartment, or whatever
26:42it is that you both decide to do
26:44together you design it to your tastes
26:47together. It would be very rare for you
26:49to say, "I I this to look exactly like
26:51my mom's home." And it would be very
26:53rare for that person to say, "I want
26:54this to look exactly like my dad's
26:55home." Chances are you're both going to
26:57come together
26:58and you maybe one of the partners takes
27:00the lead because the other person
27:01doesn't have much interest or talent or
27:03skill and you end up creating this
27:04space, but the point was you knew you
27:06were creating something together.
27:08Right. And so I like to think about it
27:10like that where it's like, "Okay, well,
27:11we're designing something together." And
27:13that doesn't mean we don't take
27:14influence and inspiration from the homes
27:16we came from, but we're not trying to
27:19mirror those homes perfectly, no matter
27:21how amazing they were. How do we open up
27:23our minds to that because I think so
27:25many people just go, "Well, no, this is
27:27how it's done and this is how it's meant
27:28to be." People come into relationships
27:31probably with your idea that they're
27:33going to create something together
27:36and that's their kind of conscious mind,
27:38but then as the relationship starts to
27:40kind of take shape,
27:43all sorts of unconscious loyalties
27:45creep in and then a person might believe
27:48that they're creating this new home,
27:50but they suddenly feel like, to use it
27:54metaphorically, but the foyer has to
27:56look a certain way and they don't even
27:57know why.
27:59But it's coming from their family of
28:01origin, a certain kind of It makes me
28:04think also of um queer couples that that
28:07that were raised by straight parents.
28:11They have to really rebrand everything
28:14and recreate. They can't rely on the old
28:16model, but they don't have another model
28:18to rely on yet. So it creates like all
28:21these like confusions like, "Wait, are
28:23we trying to build kind of a
28:25straight-like relationship or are we
28:28creating something totally new?"
28:31And it's hard to create new. I mean,
28:32it's it's there's something that's easy
28:34when you rely on like an old model that
28:36was handed down to you and you don't
28:38have to like reinvent things and you
28:40don't have to think and wonder what's
28:42right, what's wrong. You're just kind of
28:44repeating something that was done. Yeah.
28:47Yeah.
28:47It It comes up again around questions of
28:50raising children. That's like it then it
28:52starts all over again. Like what's the
28:55right way to raise children and you
28:57know, I don't know.
28:58Sleep training or Yeah. Is it just
29:01Yeah, and then both your parents have
29:03ideas on how you should raise the kids,
29:05too.
29:05And now you're fighting about what your
29:07parents think
29:08Yeah. is the right way to raise kids.
29:09Yeah. You're like, "Well, my mom raised
29:10me and she did a great job." And then
29:12you're like, "Well, my mom raised me and
29:13she did a great job."
29:14Right. And now it's like, "My mom's
29:15better than your mom."
29:16Right. And And it's you know, but that's
29:18That is what people are Those are the
29:20conversations people are having.
29:21Yeah. Right? Like that's what you're
29:22hearing, too.
29:23Yes, I'm hearing that a lot. When people
29:25have the experience of letting go of the
29:29right, wrong, either, or
29:32when they work through problems in a
29:34different way, they it does get
29:36internalized and people
29:38get the hang of it and the and the good
29:40feeling of, "Oh my god, it's not my ego
29:43doesn't have to be at stake with every
29:45discussion." Or right, wrong is not the
29:48only way to think about things. There
29:50There are like so vast other ways to
29:53think about difference. And when you get
29:56into the groove of that, the world opens
29:59up. Yeah. I think we need to give people
30:02a vocabulary for that.
30:03Yeah. And
30:04Yeah. And it's really hard when we've
30:06lived in a very logical, rational world.
30:09Yeah. Where like you learned math and
30:12there was something There was a right
30:13answer.
30:14Right.
30:14And there was a wrong answer. Right.
30:15Although even in math, it's not true.
30:17There are many ways to get to a
30:18solution. Yeah. But the way we were
30:21taught in school
30:22there was always a right and wrong
30:23answer. So, we don't really have the
30:25ability like and I keep coming to art as
30:28a way of talking about it. It's like
30:30Yeah.
30:31art just doesn't have a lot of right and
30:33wrong.
30:34Yeah. It's just taste. Yeah. And taste
30:37can Taste is not good or bad. It's just
30:39taste. It's just like you could put a
30:42color that doesn't make sense next to
30:43another color
30:45and it could work and it could not work,
30:47but you're not looking at it in a binary
30:50way. You have a reason for why it's
30:51placed there. Yeah. And and I think
30:53we've
30:54in in trying to get to right and wrong,
30:57we've lost our reasoning power. Yeah.
30:59Like why am I doing this? Why are we
31:01doing this? How are we behaving? Yeah.
31:03How quickly do you know when you meet
31:04someone whether they're going to make it
31:06or not? A couple? Yeah.
31:08You know, I don't make quick judgments.
31:11I really refrain from that because I
31:15think humans to me, I mean and I've been
31:18working as a psychologist and analyst
31:20for many years, but humans to me remain
31:24and in principle remain a certain kind
31:26of mystery.
31:27There's something about humans that is
31:30like ever surprising to me. And when a
31:34couple walks in,
31:37they might look like they have like most
31:40intense kind of hair-raising problems.
31:44My general approach is I want the
31:46mystery of why they're together and what
31:48they're trying to have with each other
31:50reveal itself and and I want to line up
31:53with that part of them.
31:56So, I try really try not to rush to any
31:59kind of judgment. Oh, these guys are
32:01never going to make it.
32:02I mean, there's certain things that,
32:04let's say, bother me when with couples.
32:07I mean, when they're very committed to a
32:10certain
32:12stance of,
32:14let's say, contempt or put-downs or
32:19if you want, you can call it abuse,
32:20although abuse is a complicated word
32:22nowadays.
32:24But there's a certain kind of
32:26um
32:26pleasure in sadism that some couples
32:29develop, that they get
32:31hooked on a certain kind of
32:32sadomasochistic dynamic
32:35that I'm I'm not into and if I can't
32:40convince a couple most couples want to
32:43get out of that. They don't enjoy it. Um
32:46I'm not talking about kink. I'm talking
32:47about like a pernicious kind of mutually
32:51destructive way of engaging.
32:54And if I can't convince a couple to move
32:57out of that mode, if there's something
32:58that is too tempting for them,
33:01then either I think you guys should just
33:03break up and stop torturing each other
33:06or I'm just not the right person for
33:07you. I don't want to be in the presence
33:09of that.
33:10Um but that mostly people are not into
33:12that. They might get stuck in that kind
33:15of pattern and they look for me to help
33:16them.
33:17But most people want to get out of that
33:19and they and they go for the honey, you
33:21know, they go for the good if you just
33:23help them figure out how. Mhm. If If a
33:26couple's stuck in the blame game, Mhm.
33:30like, "Well, this is all your fault."
33:31And then the other person's like, "Well,
33:33I've been trying my best, you know, but
33:34you It's really what you've been doing."
33:36How do you start rewiring that
33:38conversation? What does it take? What
33:40are the steps to getting out of the
33:42blame game which seems to be such a
33:43common place? Right. It's big. Um
33:47there's no there's no one way because
33:50people get stuck in that blame game
33:52which is pernicious
33:54um
33:55for different reasons. My job and when
33:58people are in that kind of pattern is to
34:00convince each of them to kind of release
34:05the grip they have
34:07like be a little less
34:10convinced and sure about their own
34:12narrative.
34:14Just get a little less stubborn about
34:17your narrative
34:18and start getting curious about other
34:21ways to see things
34:23and then start getting curious about
34:25yourself. Rather than hyperfocus on your
34:28partner and put everything outside, like
34:32try to pull back from that hyperfocus
34:34and start asking yourself questions.
34:37Why does this thing bother me so much?
34:40What is the thing that is like making me
34:43crazy? Like if if we went back to like
34:45the example of like the the dinner
34:47parties,
34:48like why is it so important to clean
34:50right after? What's the fear if the if
34:54the dishes sit there for another 2
34:55hours? What what's the issue? Like look
34:58back at yourself. Don't focus on your
35:00partner. What's he doing not doing?
35:03What's getting stirred up in you?
35:05And usually you find really interesting
35:07things there.
35:09Like when people are really willing to
35:10like pull away from their partner and
35:12look into themselves, they're like, "Oh,
35:14this is really interesting.
35:16This is kind of reminding me of blah
35:19blah blah." And then suddenly it's less
35:20about the partner and there's a whole
35:22world to discover about yourself.
35:24And and and the whole intensity of blame
35:27goes down, and then people get curious
35:30about each other.
35:32You know, and you're going to be like,
35:33"Oh, yeah, I noticed that your mom is
35:34like so fastidious and she's so afraid
35:37of germs and what happened to her when
35:39she was a kid?" And like a whole world
35:42opens. And and the whole blame thing
35:44becomes less interesting. Yeah, I
35:45remember doing that for myself and
35:47realizing
35:48I thought I'd been tolerant of my
35:50partner and then realized my wife's
35:51actually been so tolerant of me. Mhm.
35:53Like you have that kind of
35:56180° view where you just go, "Oh, wait a
35:58minute. I thought I was the one like
36:00Yeah.
36:01Yeah. But that's because I never kept
36:03score
36:04on her scorecard. Yeah. Right? It was
36:06very easy for you to always look at
36:08things through your lens.
36:10Totally.
36:10You can always count the amount of
36:11overtime hours you did. It's the same at
36:14work. You can always count the amount of
36:15effort you've put in, but you never see
36:17anyone else's effort. You never see And
36:20and we also miss the like when our
36:22partner lets us off with bad behavior or
36:25a bad mood, you don't take note of that.
36:27No. But then when your partner when you,
36:30you know, react to your partner's bad
36:32mood or whatever, you're like, "Oh my
36:33god, look, I held back and I was so
36:35gracious."
36:36that for me?
36:37Yeah, why aren't you doing that for me?
36:38But when you
36:40you're you're describing this change in
36:43you,
36:45the thing that is interesting to me,
36:48and I I often try to bring couples'
36:50attention to that is I would assume that
36:53when you had that change, it actually
36:55felt really good. Right? People are so
36:58afraid that they're going to lose
37:00something, but they gain something. When
37:02they go through that change, that's what
37:04I was talking about earlier, like the
37:05world opens and and
37:07good feelings come in. Like, "Oh, we're
37:10both in it together. We're not like,
37:12'Oh, she's bad, I'm good, and like she's
37:15to blame, and it's suddenly like, 'Oh,
37:17we're both human
37:19together.
37:20We're both flawed. We're both awesome."
37:23Yeah, what happens when
37:25objectively someone is being
37:28genuinely taking taken advantage of. So,
37:30it's like they're doing all the chores,
37:33they're contributing 50% financially,
37:36they're
37:37their feelings are not heard or seen,
37:40they're never validated.
37:42The person does actually have an
37:43expectation that you're meant to do all
37:45this. This is who you are. This is your
37:46role in life. Yeah. How does someone
37:49think through that
37:50when they still feel the person's a good
37:52person and First of all, I have to say,
37:54it's more rare than you'd think. Oh,
37:57interesting. Yeah, it sometimes looks
38:00like that. Like one person could be
38:02like, you know, like you're saying,
38:03doing all the work and the other person
38:05is like mooching off them and
38:08but when you look at the relationship,
38:10often what you find is that they're
38:12contributing in some other very subtle
38:15way. It could be
38:17not something you can really put your
38:18finger on, but they're like the
38:21let's say they're loyal to the
38:24couplehood. They're holding like the the
38:27the
38:28the
38:29whatever that thing of the boat is
38:30called, the keel of the boat. Mhm.
38:32They're they're like the most romantic
38:34and holding on to the deepest idea of
38:37what the couple is despite all the
38:40fighting or they might be contributing
38:43in ways that are
38:44hard to account for and and it's
38:47important to to unearth that.
38:50And
38:51give each person a sense of what their
38:53contribution really is.
38:55Some of the work that I have to do with
38:57couples is
38:59make people aware and accountable for
39:01where they are being selfish.
39:04Because we all have an inclination to
39:07as you said earlier to only see our own
39:09work and only see our own point of view
39:11and
39:12we're selfish and we're not even
39:13selfish, we're self-centered.
39:16We've we've got like, you know, the the
39:18our perceptive field and we don't really
39:21see the other.
39:23And working through that and and
39:27getting to a more humble place where you
39:29understand that you've been more selfish
39:32and that in certain ways you are
39:33exploiting your partner, it's an
39:35important piece of the work.
39:37I have to go about it. It's it's hard
39:39for all of us to acknowledge that. So, I
39:41have to go about it
39:43gingerly and and sensitively with people
39:46and and give a lot of reinforcement for
39:48being willing to take on that less
39:52pretty part of ourselves. Mhm.
39:54But ultimately, like you were saying
39:56earlier, it's it's
39:58it's a gratifying process.
40:01That that's why
40:03it sounds
40:04almost like Pollyannaish or corny,
40:07especially nowadays, but I do believe in
40:09the goodness of people. We ultimately
40:12want what's good for our partner. Yeah,
40:15it's just that
40:17we want what's good for our partner, but
40:20maybe we don't know what's good for
40:22them. Yeah.
40:24Right? And we often think we know what's
40:27good for our partner or right for our
40:29partner.
40:29Yeah. And that's sometimes our greatest
40:31mistake.
40:32Yeah. Because we're not really listening
40:34to them or Right. taking in from them
40:37what they're saying and
40:38and feeling.
40:40We're self-centered, we're narcissistic
40:42in many ways. There's a way in which our
40:44world view is limited by being you know,
40:48the way we're especially the way we're
40:49raised. I actually wonder what you'd
40:51think about this because I think it's
40:53it's very different in Western versus
40:56other cultures, but but but we're raised
40:58with such
40:59a focus on the self. I mean, there's a
41:02certain kind of narcissism built into
41:04our culture
41:06that makes it harder for us to be in in
41:10deep relationships. Mhm. Do you Do you
41:13have thoughts on this?
41:14Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I I feel that to
41:17me, relationships have to be about
41:19growth and service.
41:21And I think we think that they're about
41:24pleasure Yeah. and ease. Yeah, and self.
41:27And self. And that's when we have
41:29pleasure. Pleasure's always The self is
41:30always linked to pleasure generally.
41:33And ease and comfort.
41:35Yeah.
41:35And it's funny because growth and
41:36service are the exact opposite. So,
41:38growth is the opposite of ease and
41:40comfort. And service is the opposite of
41:43self-centeredness.
41:44Yeah. I've thought about it so often.
41:46I've grown so much more. And when I mean
41:49grown, I mean like challenged to grow by
41:52being in a relationship with my wife in
41:54a healthy way
41:55Yeah. than I have just had fun. So, it's
41:58like we have lots of fun, things are
41:59great, but I've become a better human
42:02because of this relationship
42:04Absolutely.
42:04on so many levels. I've become more
42:05self-aware. Yeah.
42:07less egotistical. I've become more
42:10conscious of my flaws. And it's happened
42:13all in a less judgmental way and I think
42:15that's the part that I think people get
42:18wrong is that we say this is the person
42:21that we want to love forever but they
42:23end up becoming the person we judge
42:25forever.
42:25Yeah. And they become the person that we
42:27criticize forever and they become the
42:29person that we complain about forever
42:31and the person you said you wanted to
42:33love forever becomes the person who
42:34actually gets the least loving part of
42:37you.
42:37Yes. And so when I say growth and
42:39service I don't mean subservience when I
42:42say service and I don't mean judgement
42:45when I say growth because I think a lot
42:47of people think oh well if I'm going to
42:49point out all my partner's flaws so that
42:50they can grow and I look I'm helping
42:52them and I'm like well no that doesn't
42:54you know Radhi's never done that to me
42:55and I think that's one of the reasons
42:57why
42:58we have a healthy relationship because
42:59we both don't do that. We both feel like
43:02we're guiding and coaching each other on
43:05things we both opt in and say we want to
43:07work on. What would you say if you had
43:09to characterize each of your
43:11basic stances towards each other?
43:14What how would you describe it?
43:16Ooh that's interesting. I don't know if
43:18I even have the vocabulary for that.
43:19It's a great question. Um I would say I
43:22am completely in awe of my wife. I love
43:25her. I find her to be the most adorable
43:27wonderful human being. I could like look
43:29at her you know
43:31a video or a picture of her and I just
43:33it's we've been together for 11 years
43:34and I'll just feel this like overarching
43:37feeling of love towards her.
43:39And her?
43:41I would have to ask her for this
43:42question I guess. But how would she
43:44perceive it? I think I think if she was
43:46answering this in a question to you or
43:48when I wasn't in the room
43:50I think she'd say that she has a deep
43:54sense of respect and
43:58I don't want to use the word adoration
44:00out of context but like there's a
44:03if if she's sharing how she feels with
44:04me in private or in a in a special
44:06moment or
44:08through a friend who said something to
44:10me, it would it would be that I think
44:12she just she trusts me deeply. She has a
44:14very
44:16positive feeling towards me as a human,
44:18let alone just as a partner. Yeah. Um
44:21That's amazing.
44:22And I don't Yeah, and you know,
44:23sometimes I have to get that out of her,
44:24but you know, it's uh
44:26But that But that's
44:28what you're describing sort of what
44:30you're
44:31It's like the space that you're creating
44:33for each other, right? To live in. That
44:35that basic stance.
44:38Like when you were asking earlier like
44:40what what are couples that will not make
44:42it? I mean, that's
44:44that's what you want. You want the
44:45couple to create that kind of space
44:48between them to live in.
44:50That you're creating the world in which
44:51you're living. How do you encourage them
44:54to do that when they're saying to you,
44:57But he But he But he
44:58Yeah, when I look at my partner, he's
45:00like, I know he's a good guy at heart.
45:03I I know I know he's I know he means
45:05well.
45:06But he just, you know, what he does is
45:08watch football all weekend. Right. And
45:10like he always forgets my birthday. Mhm.
45:13And you know, he's just like it's always
45:14about like spending time with his
45:16family.
45:17Right. And like you know, I don't even
45:19think he even He never wants to talk
45:21about his feelings. Like you know, if
45:22that's what you're hearing.
45:23Right. It's very difficult to what
45:24hear. I do hear that.
45:26How do you encourage them to heal that?
45:29Well, hopefully, you know, to have that
45:31kind of stance that you described so
45:33beautifully, like that you each kind of
45:34provide for each other. First of all, it
45:37you have to have that capacity inside
45:40you, right? Meaning it speaks to some
45:43way that you come into the relationship
45:45with
45:46a capacity to love, right? Like a a
45:49capacity to experience those kind of
45:51feelings towards another person.
45:54And then
45:56which is great, and I believe
45:58most of us have that. I mean, most of us
46:01have enough good inside us that we have
46:04that. It's just now, how do you create
46:06the conditions where that is the thing
46:09that can come out?
46:10And couples come into treatment
46:13basically
46:14I often
46:16joke about the fact that
46:19couples come in basically saying,
46:21"Doctor, can you change my partner?"
46:23That that's like they won't say it, but
46:25that's really why couples come into my
46:27office. Can you please change my
46:28partner? Everything will be okay if you
46:30just change her.
46:32But when you
46:34get people less invested in what we were
46:37saying earlier, like the blame, blame,
46:38blame, and
46:40he did this, she did that,
46:42and get them
46:44back into the this feeling of awe
46:47about another person, this feeling like,
46:50but actually look at them. They're
46:52they're just so wonderful in some
46:55elemental way, in some way that I know,
46:57I know their goodness.
46:59Remember that feeling, like approach
47:02them from that place.
47:04You're creating the conditions for that
47:07person to thrive.
47:08Right? When you When you're When your
47:10wife looks at you with adoration, that's
47:13when your best self will come out. When
47:16your wife looks at you like, "Ugh, you
47:18up again." For sure. You're just
47:20like, "I don't care anymore. I'm I'm
47:23going to go play video games. Like, who
47:25needs that?" Right? So, you're you're By
47:28the way you're looking at your partner,
47:30you're inviting certain parts of
47:32themselves out.
47:34And I remind people of that. We respond
47:36to each other. We respond to the gaze,
47:39to the the music we're sending each
47:40other. And it it invites different parts
47:44of us out. What about when someone feels
47:47I've given them too many chances. I've
47:48I've given them that lens for too long.
47:51Mhm. And they're just not shifting, but
47:53they've not done anything terrible where
47:54I need to leave them.
47:56But they're also not making any progress
47:59on this path, and I kept looking at them
48:02with a loving lens, with a compassionate
48:03lens, but I just keep running out of
48:06patience. In that case, I would need to
48:09hear from the partner what's going on.
48:12I mean, some people I mean, is the
48:13partner depressed? I don't know. What
48:15what's going on there? Like, if if
48:17really a lot is on is being offered, and
48:21the partner can't pick up on those
48:23nutrients,
48:24what's going on?
48:26Are they Maybe they're going through
48:29something. Maybe they're
48:31Maybe there's something completely
48:32different going on on their end, some
48:34kind of grudge, or something that
48:37they haven't had a chance to to really
48:39articulate. I mean, that would be
48:41interesting for me if that happens.
48:42That's not the typical thing that
48:44happens between people.
48:45Interesting. I mean, typically, if you
48:47put good out, good will come back. And I
48:50like that idea of
48:52when you look at your partner in a
48:54certain way,
48:55it's what they feel, and it's what you
48:57feel. And I think it goes back to that
48:59human need we all have as wanting
49:01someone to believe in us. Yeah. There's
49:03such a feeling Like, I believe everyone
49:05has that at the core.
49:07Of course.
49:07Like, everyone But But there's very few
49:09people who believe in you, or at least
49:10you make you feel that way.
49:11Yeah. It starts, obviously, you know,
49:14you know, I'm a psychoanalyst, so I'm
49:16eventually going to
49:17go back to childhood. But it starts with
49:19the way whoever raised you looked at
49:22you. Like, what was the
49:25you know, it doesn't have to be the
49:26mother, but what was the look in your
49:28mother's eye when she saw you? Did the
49:32mother's eyes ultimately sparkle and
49:34like, "Oh, my baby."
49:36Or did the mother always say, "Ugh,
49:39you're always disappointing."
49:41Right? There There's like this basic way
49:43in which we're invited into the world or
49:45not
49:47that stays with us.
49:49And And
49:50that's a powerful kind of early
49:54early platform from which we operate.
49:56What's the first hard question you
49:59should ask yourself in a relationship?
50:01I would say, um,
50:08maybe am I ready
50:13to let
50:14someone else
50:16in
50:19with their otherness
50:21with the challenge to my narcissism.
50:25Am I ready for that?
50:28This is sort of following everything
50:29we've been saying. That's a great
50:31question. Can I give?
50:33Yeah, can I give?
50:35Yeah. Yeah.
50:36And can I hold space Mhm. for someone
50:40else to have to go through their
50:41transformation. Yeah. Because chances
50:43are they're not going to come fully
50:45formed. Right. And even if they're
50:47perfect on my wedding day or right now,
50:51chances are they're going to go through
50:53stuff. Yeah. And being honest with
50:55myself cuz I think sometimes we feel
50:57guilty.
50:58I know a lot of people who say to me,
51:01"Jay, I would have stayed with him."
51:03Like they're someone that they're
51:04dating, they're not married, they're not
51:05in a committed relationship. They're
51:07like, "I would have stayed with him, but
51:10I don't think I can for what he has to
51:12go through and grow through. Wow. You
51:14know, he's not ambitious, he needs to
51:17figure out his career, he's struggling
51:19with his mental health. Like, I don't
51:21know if I want to be the person
51:24to go through it with him." Right,
51:26although I would also say in that case,
51:29you're not ready.
51:31You're not ready, and
51:33no one wants to be in a relationship
51:35where their partner is just waiting for
51:37them to change for the relationship to
51:39really start. You want to feel like your
51:42relationship is your home, not
51:44the future home you're going to have if
51:46you change. Yeah. There's a certain
51:48level of acceptance that has to happen.
51:50Of course we want to change and get
51:51better and grow with each other, but you
51:54can't really be in a conditional
51:56relationship.
51:59I'm going to love you when you change.
52:01I'm going to be generous with you when
52:02you change. That's not the real thing.
52:05what people want.
52:07Uh that's that's
52:08not going to work. I literally feel like
52:11we find someone that we find attractive
52:13Mhm. and that we enjoy our time with
52:16Mhm. and then we want to change
52:17everything else about them.
52:18True. Like that's literally what we're
52:19looking for. Cuz you'll meet people who
52:20like they'll find the person who
52:22actually has everything set up for the
52:23future.
52:24Mhm. But we're not attracted to them and
52:25we don't like hanging out with them. And
52:27so we're like, "Oh, I can't be with you,
52:29obviously."
52:30But then we the opposite we're like, "Oh
52:31yeah, you're my person. I'm attracted to
52:33you. We love hanging out and having
52:35drinks and we have good banter and we
52:37can, you know, we can just spar
52:39verbally. Yeah. And you must be the
52:41perfect person for me even though I
52:43don't like anything about your actual
52:45life. What?
52:47Like you're not ambitious, you don't
52:48have a good career, you don't make
52:49enough like all the stuff that we think
52:51is important, right? I would probably
52:53frame it differently. Please. I would
52:56say
52:57the person that you
53:00really kind of get hooked onto and feel
53:03like you are the person I want to be
53:05with
53:07probably has in them
53:09components of things that are really
53:11important for you to revisit and work on
53:13that are not easy. Mhm.
53:16And
53:17know that. You don't know that. You're
53:18just in your gut you're terribly
53:20attracted to that person and and no
53:23matter all the other good partners that
53:24seem to have all the good qualities are
53:27not sticking and then that one partner
53:29that one person you keep going back to
53:32because there's something there
53:35then the preoccupation with wanting to
53:38change that partner
53:41is typically some way that you're
53:43working through something deep within
53:44yourself.
53:46Cuz, you know, ultimately, I mean, even
53:48when people talk about ambition or or
53:50it's like it's not about that. Like, why
53:53do you need your partner to be so
53:54ambitious? You go be ambitious if you
53:55want ambition.
53:57It's It's usually you're working through
53:58something.
54:00There was a couple on the show that that
54:01were a great example of that
54:04where
54:05the woman started off
54:07with like
54:08really intense complaints about her
54:10husband that he's not ambitious.
54:12And
54:14ultimately, we learned that
54:18a lot of it had to do with like her mom
54:20and father, like a repeat of some kind
54:22of old story that never got resolved
54:25between her parents, and she was totally
54:27working it out through her husband.
54:29And once she got focused on the parents
54:32and on her early history, she was
54:34suddenly back to like
54:35the best friendship in the world with
54:37her husband. They They were just like so
54:39adorable together.
54:41You know, it's It's often something else
54:44that creates this kind of you got to
54:46change for me. Yeah.
54:48Yeah, because it reminds us of something
54:50from
54:51It reminds us of something that we
54:52haven't resolved or that your parents
54:54haven't resolved or
54:56it could be like
54:59I mean, I don't know if we want to get
55:00into that, but it could have been like
55:01something like politically that wasn't
55:03resolved. I'll just say in general that
55:06that couldn't resolve a certain issue of
55:08passports between them.
55:10That had to do with one of them being
55:13Palestinian and like not having like
55:16statehood and would fight with their
55:17partner about passports, but it had
55:20nothing to do with the partner. It
55:21didn't even have to do with their own
55:23families. It had to do with Palestinian
55:25identity. All sorts of things make their
55:28way into
55:30what seems like an issue between the
55:33partners that come from really other
55:35places. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm I'm when
55:37people start like blaming their partner
55:40for stuff, for me it's like a riddle.
55:42Yeah. What is this really about? And
55:44those are the kind of questions that
55:47if we reflect on it ourselves, too, Mhm.
55:50it can help us so much. I mean, are you
55:52Do you find that
55:54are women more prone to be the fixers?
55:57First of all, I think things are
55:59changing as far as genders, so it's a
56:01little hard to make
56:04real statements about like women and
56:06men.
56:08But if I had to kind of say something
56:11general, I'd say women are
56:14they're raised to be more kind of tuned
56:18into the
56:20ins and outs of a relationship and kind
56:23of take care of the relationship in a
56:25certain way in terms of like
56:28talking more, bringing feelings to the
56:30table,
56:32and men are more tuned into like the
56:37frame around the relationship and and a
56:39certain kind of loyalty over time.
56:43They They They add a certain rudder to
56:45the relationship.
56:47So, it it's different ways of tending to
56:49the relationship, but even that, it
56:51changes a lot, and of course it then
56:53looks very different in queer
56:55relationships, so
56:57But that's kind of my
56:59crude generalization about women and
57:01men.
57:02Yeah.
57:02How have How have you helped men who
57:04struggle to open up about their
57:07emotions, open up? Because I think
57:11sometimes there's a lot of pressure
57:14for men to show up emotionally.
57:16Right. But he may never have had that
57:18training or that vocabulary or that safe
57:22space his whole life. Well, he probably
57:25has anti-training, right? Men men are I
57:28mean, again, it's different nowadays,
57:30but
57:31typically men are raised to
57:35disavow their feelings, focus on
57:39um power, protection.
57:42I mean, important functions. Not not to
57:44minimize that. There's There's a lot of
57:46value in those, but but they're they're
57:48raised to
57:50turn away from their feelings. And
57:54I What I do in my work with men is
58:01I
58:04in a way teach them to pay attention to
58:08small hints about their emotional world.
58:12And they're always there. A stomach
58:14ache, tightness in the chest,
58:17uh
58:18a habit that is
58:19not good for them.
58:21And to follow those beginning hints and
58:24clues and try to get curious about what
58:27else can they tell me about their
58:28emotions.
58:30And when they start getting in touch
58:32with feelings, it's usually it's very
58:33gratifying. It's It's good to get in
58:35touch with your feelings. It It feels
58:37good. You feel more grounded. Your Your
58:40Your world gets richer.
58:42And your relationships get better. So,
58:44it's it's really starting from the
58:46little clues from and and developing
58:48curiosity. And then kind of developing a
58:52menu, like a vocabulary for all these
58:55little things that happen in you. Like
58:57from having like three words for
58:59feelings,
59:01like I'm angry, I'm bored,
59:05I'm happy. You know, you can start
59:07expanding to 12 words and then
59:10eventually to like 70 words and then you
59:13know, it gets It gets interesting. Yeah.
59:16And I feel like people have to be
59:18patient. Mhm. That's what I found in
59:20relationships the most uh
59:23a lot of us are waiting for everything
59:25to change at the next therapy session.
59:27Yeah. The next 24 hours.
59:29Yeah. The next argument. Or we just
59:31learned that in therapy, it should be
59:32solved now.
59:33Right. And I'm like, you realize they've
59:36been practicing that habit for like 29
59:38years.
59:39Generations, generations.
59:40Yeah, and and generations even more than
59:4229 years. And so, I just feel like we've
59:45lost our ability
59:47to be patient
59:49because
59:50there's so much choice. Yeah. And
59:53there's a feeling that well, someone
59:55must be able to do all these things.
59:57Yeah. What do we do when we think that
59:58way? I'm a big advocate for, you know,
1:00:02slowness.
1:00:03I mean, psychoanalysis is a slow
1:00:05process.
1:00:07We spend like several times a week and
1:00:10over years, like slowly attending to
1:00:13things. I think when people are
1:00:17offered the experience of going through
1:00:19things slowly,
1:00:20they suddenly remember, oh, this is
1:00:22actually good for me.
1:00:24I mean, rather than scrolling through
1:00:26like a million quick videos or or
1:00:29snippets of things or like just the
1:00:31headlines of news, to sink into
1:00:34something is actually gratifying.
1:00:37Right? It's it it feels good.
1:00:39Yeah, it does. You just have to be
1:00:41guided. You have to offer people a
1:00:43frame, like the analytic frame. Like
1:00:45people sit in my office, a couple sits
1:00:47for an hour without looking at their
1:00:48phones, and we're slowly working through
1:00:51things, and then it feels good, and
1:00:53things really happen. So,
1:00:56it's just having the experience. Yeah.
1:00:59Let's I want to focus on a different
1:01:01life cycle part of relationships. When
1:01:02people are starting to date, are there
1:01:04things that they can look for
1:01:07that show the sign of someone being a
1:01:09strong partner for them?
1:01:12Or a weak partner?
1:01:13You know, that so much happens early on
1:01:17when we just meet people
1:01:19that is unconscious.
1:01:21So much is unconscious. Like years later
1:01:24you'll you'll be able to analyze why you
1:01:26really like this person or what went
1:01:29wrong. So it's hard to make people
1:01:33really fully aware of what's moving
1:01:36them.
1:01:37I would say
1:01:40listen to your gut.
1:01:42Your gut is telling you important
1:01:44things. And it might be telling you
1:01:46important things about yourself, about
1:01:48your own history. It might be telling
1:01:50you to keep repeating the same mistakes.
1:01:53Or it might be telling you something
1:01:54really worth listening to about the
1:01:56other person that is good. Don't be
1:01:58afraid.
1:01:59So, listen to your gut.
1:02:01I would also say listen to what the
1:02:03other person is telling you.
1:02:06People often disclose a lot about
1:02:09themselves right at the beginning. And
1:02:11we often don't listen. I know that from
1:02:14when patients come into my practice and
1:02:16I'm having first sessions with people,
1:02:18often people tell me everything right at
1:02:20the beginning, even even in the way they
1:02:23they're like
1:02:25late to a session and the way they
1:02:27explain it, they might be telling me a
1:02:29lot about their whole life history just
1:02:32just in the very beginning.
1:02:34So listen, don't ignore information
1:02:36that's right in front of you.
1:02:38Like um
1:02:40Hillary was actually telling me that
1:02:43a friend of hers um
1:02:46dated someone who
1:02:49I think on their first date told her
1:02:53I have a suitcase of unpaid bills under
1:02:56my bed. Mhm. And she thought it's funny.
1:03:00And ignored that. Of course only later
1:03:03later later to find out, I mean this
1:03:05person was like a mess. It sounded funny
1:03:08on the first date.
1:03:09funny, but they're telling you real
1:03:11information. So listen. Listen to what
1:03:14people are telling you. Mhm.
1:03:16Listen is generally a good a good piece
1:03:18of advice.
1:03:19Yeah. If someone tells you
1:03:22that they have a bad relationship with
1:03:24their parents, Mhm. are there certain
1:03:26things to expect or is that too general?
1:03:29First of all, that's
1:03:32an interesting piece of information.
1:03:34Talking about listening, I would
1:03:36immediately get curious. Like, what what
1:03:39is the person telling me?
1:03:41Is the person telling me something about
1:03:46early trauma?
1:03:48And um I'd want to know what happened
1:03:51and how did this person what does it
1:03:54mean to not have a good relationship
1:03:55with the parent after trauma?
1:03:58So, I'd want to know what happened um
1:04:02and is the person you're getting to know
1:04:07are they let did something bad happen to
1:04:10them with their family of origin and
1:04:13they have developed a certain kind of
1:04:15wisdom where they know how to separate
1:04:17themselves from
1:04:19from earlier traumatic experiences or
1:04:22not good experiences and they've kind of
1:04:24formed their own personhood in a way
1:04:27that you can trust
1:04:30or is this I mean
1:04:33to the other end of things is someone in
1:04:36a way stuck in something that they kind
1:04:40of have not found a way to
1:04:43work their way out of and they're going
1:04:45to be forever stuck in a certain old
1:04:48pattern
1:04:49that they really need to be doing the
1:04:52work to move out of.
1:04:54So, you know, I mean
1:04:55I'm giving two extremes. Like, one is
1:04:59I've had like something bad happened to
1:05:01me or this was not good and I'm
1:05:04I'm I've just worked my way out of it
1:05:07and I'm
1:05:08separate from this family of origin or
1:05:11on the other extreme is yeah, I hold a
1:05:14grudge and I'm forever begrudging these
1:05:16parents and really I'm going to be
1:05:18repeating that in this relationship too
1:05:20because
1:05:22this is my life story, grudge. It's so
1:05:25hard because it seems like
1:05:27long-term relationships, which is what
1:05:29we all want Mhm. require three types of
1:05:32healing. Like that person needs to heal,
1:05:34you need to heal, and then you need to
1:05:36heal together. Right. And you need to
1:05:37make space for them to heal. They need
1:05:40to spend make space for you to heal. You
1:05:42need to make space for yourself to heal.
1:05:44And then there's so much healing
1:05:46required.
1:05:46Yeah. And it requires so much
1:05:50patience, compassion, empathy, like
1:05:52almost endless to some degree.
1:05:55Again, I'm not talking about abusive or,
1:05:57you know,
1:05:59violent relationships. We're talking
1:06:01about a relationship that's
1:06:02not abusive or violent. There's There's
1:06:04like endless amounts because
1:06:07you know, it's like things were great
1:06:08and then you had a child and then the
1:06:10childhood challenges and then you went
1:06:12through that together and I've had so
1:06:14many friends this year go through a
1:06:15miscarriage and like that created new
1:06:17things in their relationship that they
1:06:19didn't have before because they both
1:06:21dealt with grief differently.
1:06:22Yeah. Samsara
1:06:25life's Life is difficult. I mean, life's
1:06:27amazing, but life is full of
1:06:31I mean, you know, the Americans think
1:06:33that
1:06:35life is about pleasure and happiness. I
1:06:37mean, life is a challenge. I mean, there
1:06:40I mean, death is embedded in life. I
1:06:42mean, life is full of difficulties.
1:06:44There's always loss, there's always a
1:06:47challenge. There It's It's the stuff of
1:06:50life. And
1:06:52I welcome that.
1:06:55That's what life is about. How do you
1:06:56know your relationship is strong enough?
1:06:58How do you prepare?
1:07:00Not that you can ever prepare for
1:07:01anything like that, but how do you know
1:07:04you're in a strong, healthy
1:07:06relationship? Because I think up until
1:07:08now the only marker we've had, which I
1:07:11don't agree with, is we never argue.
1:07:13So, a lot of people will be like, "Oh, I
1:07:15have a great relationship. We never
1:07:16argue." Right? Which is
1:07:17That sounds scary. 100 I agree, but I
1:07:20feel like that's been our only metric
1:07:23Yeah. of how we perceive if we say
1:07:25someone has a great relationship, like,
1:07:26"They never argue. Have you seen them?
1:07:27Like, it's great, right?" Like, it's not
1:07:29We don't have more than that. We don't
1:07:31have a bigger grading exercise. Yeah. We
1:07:34We do length. So, we say, "Oh, they've
1:07:36been together for 30 years. They must
1:07:38have a great marriage." So, we use
1:07:39length as a marker of success.
1:07:41Right. We use not arguing or like they
1:07:43rarely have, you know, disagreements or
1:07:45whatever it may be, as a marker of
1:07:47success. And we have, "Oh, they have a
1:07:49beautiful family." Like, if they have
1:07:51kids in it, Yeah. it feels like we have
1:07:53very basic markers
1:07:55to assume that someone has a healthy
1:07:56relationship. How do we make sure we're
1:07:59in a strong healthy relationship? What
1:08:01does that look like? First of all, I
1:08:03would say that kind of what we said
1:08:04earlier, that kind of stance.
1:08:07When you spend time with a couple,
1:08:09when you spend time with a couple, you
1:08:11have they have they build a certain
1:08:13there's a way that there's an atmosphere
1:08:15around them that you can it's palpable.
1:08:18And if the atmosphere around them is of
1:08:21a certain kind of mutual respect,
1:08:23adoration, a certain kind of acceptance,
1:08:28that is that is a good relationship.
1:08:30That is a good world to live in. They've
1:08:33created a world in which they They're
1:08:35They're space for them to thrive.
1:08:37So,
1:08:38is is sort of the music of a
1:08:40relationship. Is it a music of like
1:08:43a mutual
1:08:45respect, adoration, or is it a a a music
1:08:49of gotcha.
1:08:51This is where you failed. This is where
1:08:53you messed up.
1:08:54So, that's one dimension.
1:08:56I would say if a couple
1:08:59is uh changing
1:09:03together, meaning is there room for each
1:09:05of them to change at their own speed and
1:09:08together as a couple? Do they go through
1:09:10changes and evolutions? That's a really
1:09:14good quality of the relationship that
1:09:16it's it's
1:09:18you know, that it doesn't break under
1:09:20pressure, but it changes under pressure.
1:09:23That's that's a very strong quality.
1:09:26I mean, couples that don't argue scare
1:09:27me.
1:09:29I don't know what how they what what
1:09:30happens there. What
1:09:32Do they just not talk? Or do they not
1:09:34reveal ways in which they're different?
1:09:36Or
1:09:37that's scary.
1:09:39Um
1:09:40Tell me more on that. I like that.
1:09:42Like what How do you not never argue?
1:09:45Like what Are you just the same person?
1:09:48Have you Have you become like enmeshed
1:09:50with each other and everything about you
1:09:52that is different, you just repress
1:09:56or dissociate? Are you so afraid of
1:09:58conflict? Are you
1:10:00Where are you? Each of you vanished?
1:10:03It just seems unreal.
1:10:05I think the ability to
1:10:10face differences, and and back to what
1:10:13we were talking about earlier, find how
1:10:16How have you faced your differences? How
1:10:18do you work through your differences? Is
1:10:21what's really interesting about a
1:10:22relationship. And that's where its life
1:10:25is. Mhm. But can I ask you? What would
1:10:27you say?
1:10:28I I really appreciate
1:10:29of like a good relationship.
1:10:31your answer. I think it's um
1:10:33it's it's it's unique. I've I've not
1:10:36heard those
1:10:37things before, and I appreciate that a
1:10:39lot.
1:10:40I think one where
1:10:42both people don't expect the other
1:10:45person to value what they value.
1:10:48But they allow the other person to have
1:10:50their values, and they have their own.
1:10:52Mhm. And both people respect each
1:10:55other's values.
1:10:57But they don't want the other person to
1:10:59believe as strongly about theirs Yeah.
1:11:02as they do the others. Yeah.
1:11:03Because I just think that
1:11:05that's pretty difficult if you're
1:11:07honest. Yeah. It's easy if you you're
1:11:09living at a surface level and a
1:11:11superficial level to be like, "Oh, we
1:11:12both value family." And it's like,
1:11:14"Well,
1:11:15you don't really. Like, maybe it's
1:11:18second on your list, but first on your
1:11:20list is your career. Let's just be
1:11:21honest." And there's nothing wrong with
1:11:23that. But let's be honest about it. And
1:11:26hey, for fam- it's not really family,
1:11:28it's specifically your kids. Yeah.
1:11:30It's not the whole family. So let's
1:11:31really be Let's get really honest about
1:11:33that. And then we may realize we have
1:11:35different values. That doesn't break our
1:11:37relationship because I respect and we
1:11:39know where we stand. So I think that's a
1:11:41sign of a healthy
1:11:42Yeah. When we can be really That's what
1:11:44I think honesty is. I don't think
1:11:45honesty is, "I did this. What did you
1:11:47do?" Yeah.
1:11:48That's a part of honesty, but the real
1:11:50honesty is like, "Can I
1:11:51the depth of your what you believe in.
1:11:53Yeah, what I really Can I really tell
1:11:54you what I believe in?
1:11:55Yeah.
1:11:56And you're okay with it?
1:11:57Yeah. And of course when that changes,
1:12:00it can be hard. Yeah.
1:12:01And I think that's a sign of a good
1:12:02relationship is how we deal with new
1:12:04information and change.
1:12:06Mhm.
1:12:06And that doesn't mean you have to stay
1:12:07together if the information is not what
1:12:09you want to hear or isn't right for you,
1:12:11but I think a strong and healthy
1:12:13relationship is where
1:12:15you are okay with most changes and
1:12:20you're able to flow rather than saying,
1:12:22"Well, you're not the same person you
1:12:24you were I thought you were this."
1:12:26Right. And they're like, "Yeah, we've
1:12:27been together for 10 years." And so I
1:12:30think a healthy relationship is one that
1:12:32allows for different iterations of each
1:12:34other.
1:12:35Yeah. And what that comes with. And
1:12:37rather than trying to hold on to the
1:12:39person you had on your wedding day,
1:12:40Right.
1:12:41you're open to the idea that they're
1:12:43actually going to be different every day
1:12:44and every decade. Yeah. I would say a
1:12:46healthy relationship is one where you
1:12:47don't depend on the other person for
1:12:49everything. Yeah.
1:12:51When you have other people in your life,
1:12:53your friends, your family, your parents,
1:12:56you have other people you can turn to as
1:13:00well as turning to your partner.
1:13:01Yeah.
1:13:02But it isn't an over-dependence on them
1:13:04or it isn't the opposite, which is an
1:13:07over-reliance on everyone else and no
1:13:09dependence on them.
1:13:10Right.
1:13:11When it comes to my relationship, I talk
1:13:12to my partner. Mhm. When it comes to
1:13:14other stuff, I have other people to talk
1:13:16about it with.
1:13:17Right? Like that balance of If we're
1:13:18talking about issues in the
1:13:19relationship, I don't need to talk to
1:13:20someone else. I need to talk to my
1:13:21partner about it. They're the person I
1:13:23need to go to. Right. But if I have
1:13:24issues with
1:13:26something that came up today and
1:13:28actually I love venting with my mom or
1:13:30my brother or whatever, then then that's
1:13:31who I'm going to turn to. Yeah. So
1:13:33that's what comes to mind at least.
1:13:34Yeah.
1:13:35And can I go back and ask you, I'm just
1:13:37curious what you think about like what
1:13:39for you is like a a sign of a bad
1:13:42relationship?
1:13:43I want to ask you, too.
1:13:49I have a really interesting
1:13:53perspective on love and relationships
1:13:56and
1:13:57it comes from my mom. Like I believe my
1:13:58mom made me believe that I was lovable
1:14:01and that I feel that in my core.
1:14:04And so giving love for me feels very
1:14:06easy because I feel like I was showered
1:14:09in it since I was a kid. And when I say
1:14:11love, I mean love. I don't mean things.
1:14:13I don't mean stuff. I don't mean
1:14:16I'm I mean just I think my mom loves me
1:14:18and I've always felt that my mom's love
1:14:20was a shield to early trauma that I did
1:14:23experience but didn't penetrate the
1:14:25shield. And so I feel very lucky. So I
1:14:27feel like I could love the whole world
1:14:29and never run out.
1:14:30That's awesome.
1:14:31and it's and it comes from my mom. My
1:14:33mom gets the credit for that.
1:14:34Wow. And what you were saying when you
1:14:35were like, "Does that mom have that look
1:14:37in her eyes?" Yeah, I was like my mom
1:14:38has that I could totally resonate. I was
1:14:40like, "Yeah, that's my mom."
1:14:41So That's why you can Yeah, so I have a
1:14:44unlimited I feel an unlimited And of
1:14:46course I feel very connected to God. I
1:14:47feel connected to source. I So I feel a
1:14:50very unlimited sense of love. Yeah. It
1:14:52shows up in different ways. Sometimes
1:14:54setting love is setting boundaries and
1:14:55not over giving or compassion fatigue
1:14:58and you know, all those things have to
1:15:00be taken into account. But I think when
1:15:03you ask me what's the sign of a
1:15:05unhealthy relationship or or a bad
1:15:07relationship,
1:15:09I think it's when I feel that we're both
1:15:13only looking
1:15:15at the other person's mistakes.
1:15:19We're not looking at our own. Mhm. And
1:15:22we're looking for all accountability to
1:15:24be taken by the other person
1:15:26and not ours.
1:15:28And we're not willing to at certain
1:15:31times
1:15:33be potentially the savior of the
1:15:35relationship.
1:15:37Mhm. When we're thinking, well, they
1:15:38should be doing it, too.
1:15:40And I think a healthy relationship is
1:15:41recognizing some days you're going to
1:15:43carry me. Yeah. And some days I'm going
1:15:45to carry you. Yeah. And yes, it may have
1:15:47looked like I carried you for the last 2
1:15:49years,
1:15:50but you may carry me for the next two.
1:15:52Yeah. And I don't want to live in a
1:15:54world where we're counting every day
1:15:56whether everything is 50/50. Yeah.
1:15:58Because I don't think it works that way.
1:16:00Like my wife was there were you know,
1:16:02when we first got married and we moved
1:16:03to New York
1:16:05and she was away from her family
1:16:08and she never once complained to me. She
1:16:10missed her family a lot.
1:16:12And she told me she missed them. And so
1:16:14her family?
1:16:15In London. Yeah. And she missed her
1:16:17family a lot, but she didn't complain to
1:16:19me. She didn't nag me. She didn't tell
1:16:20me like it was all my fault that she was
1:16:22away from her family.
1:16:24And so I know she tolerated a lot.
1:16:26And at the same time all I wanted was
1:16:28for her to be with her family cuz I knew
1:16:29how much that meant to her.
1:16:30Yeah.
1:16:31And I would say that in those early
1:16:33years she was so patient and so tolerant
1:16:35with the fact that we'd moved here for
1:16:37my work and my mission and and my
1:16:39purpose. And I was living my dream.
1:16:42But a part my dream is also seeing her
1:16:43happy, so my dream wasn't complete
1:16:45either. Right. But I think the point is
1:16:48she carried me those years because she
1:16:50didn't feel like a weight. She could
1:16:53have, but she chose not to.
1:16:56Even though she was honest about how she
1:16:57felt, but it wasn't like it was my
1:16:58fault. It didn't feel projected onto me.
1:17:01Yeah. And then she's been through such
1:17:03an evolution in the last couple of years
1:17:04where her role in our life has changed,
1:17:07her career's taken off, her
1:17:10purpose has blossomed, so much has
1:17:12happened, and I feel I've been there for
1:17:14her while she's been finding herself.
1:17:16Yeah.
1:17:17And discovering herself, and I've been
1:17:18open to that, and I'm like, but if she
1:17:20was like looking at it in the early days
1:17:22and was like, I moved for you, I did all
1:17:24this for you, what are you doing for me?
1:17:26You're just living your dream.
1:17:27Yeah.
1:17:28If she said that to me, I don't know if
1:17:29we would have survived.
1:17:30Right. And then now when she needed a
1:17:32partner to give her space to blossom and
1:17:35grow, if she would have left me before
1:17:37for all those reasons or whatever, then
1:17:39she may not have found a person who is
1:17:40willing to And I wasn't doing it because
1:17:42she did it for me, I was doing it
1:17:43because I love her.
1:17:44Yeah. And I think that's what it is,
1:17:45you're motivated from a place of It's
1:17:47not like I'm counting, I'm just doing
1:17:48this cuz I love you. I'm not I'm not
1:17:50doing this because Yeah, that makes a
1:17:52lot of sense.
1:17:52Yeah, does that make sense? I don't
1:17:53know, sorry I took a windy road to
1:17:55explain
1:17:55no, it's
1:17:56it it also ties to a few of the things
1:17:59we've been talking about. It sort of
1:18:01it even ties to like the question of
1:18:03like if someone says, I'm estranged from
1:18:06my family of origin. Like again, is it
1:18:08like a stance of like
1:18:11they didn't do enough for me, grudge,
1:18:13grudge, grudge, or is it a stance of I'm
1:18:15taking responsibility for myself. Yeah,
1:18:18and and I think it all comes down to the
1:18:21the old wisdom of just
1:18:23what can I do, what can I control, what
1:18:25can I what can I focus on? It's not
1:18:27about what I can't control
1:18:28Yeah. what I don't think about. Or the
1:18:30blame game.
1:18:31blame game. I was going to ask you about
1:18:33some of more of those things actually.
1:18:34Like, what are your thoughts on how
1:18:36often do you hear the word gaslighting
1:18:38in the office?
1:18:39Is it common? What's your
1:18:41Yeah, there are there are a bunch of
1:18:42words that I hear a lot now in the
1:18:43office that I think come from
1:18:46TikTok?
1:18:47Yeah. Yeah.
1:18:49Gaslighting,
1:18:51um
1:18:53triggers, trauma,
1:18:56um Love bombing. Love bombing, yeah,
1:18:58recently there was a lot of love
1:18:59bombing. I'm like
1:19:01What are your reactions to this word?
1:19:02So, when I say the word love bombing
1:19:04Yeah. What are your initial What are
1:19:06your instant thoughts?
1:19:07My instant thoughts are, first of all,
1:19:11I'm old.
1:19:14Cuz I I came in with a different
1:19:16vocabulary, um
1:19:19and
1:19:21I typically ask people to
1:19:25Or there's another one, activated. I'm
1:19:27activated. That's People are using that
1:19:29a lot. Triggered and activated. Um
1:19:34I typically ask people to
1:19:38I like play dumb and I say, "Tell me
1:19:41what you mean. I don't know what you
1:19:42mean."
1:19:43Because they usually the the way people
1:19:45use these words is
1:19:49they have a feeling about something, but
1:19:51they don't exactly know what that
1:19:52something is, so they grab a word, I
1:19:55guess, from TikTok
1:19:56that kind of supposedly captures it, and
1:19:58then they're done thinking. Mm. They
1:20:00stop investigating themselves, or they
1:20:02stop really They're just like, "Aha, I
1:20:04found the culprit, gaslighting. That's
1:20:06what's happening to me. I don't have to
1:20:07think about it anymore. Someone is bad."
1:20:10You know, it's usually like
1:20:11that. I agree with you. Yeah, it's
1:20:13usually a lot more complicated than I
1:20:15found the word and someone is bad. Yeah,
1:20:18it's almost a relief we feel when we
1:20:19find the word.
1:20:20But actually He's a narcissist. He's a
1:20:23narcissist. He's gaslighting me. So, I
1:20:26feel like the world has
1:20:27everyone feels like they've dated a
1:20:29narcissist.
1:20:30Mhm.
1:20:31How accurate are they? 100% accurate
1:20:34because we all have parts of ourselves
1:20:37that are narcissistically oriented,
1:20:39meaning they're to protect our sense of
1:20:41self.
1:20:43Some people move more to the extreme and
1:20:46they're really like
1:20:47deeply wounded and and have to spend a
1:20:50lot of energy protecting themselves and
1:20:53working around their ego, but
1:20:55most of us in certain situations were
1:20:59provoked to behave in more narcissistic
1:21:02ways and when we're offered other
1:21:04conditions, we can be more open and
1:21:08interested in the world. So, it's
1:21:11usually the way it's used in pop
1:21:13language, it's usually just like a word
1:21:15that covers up a whole other world of
1:21:18things.
1:21:19I think when people talk about I've
1:21:21dated a narcissist, they're like
1:21:23that person didn't give me enough
1:21:25attention.
1:21:28Mhm. And
1:21:30what's that about that? There there
1:21:31could be so much there. Like what what
1:21:33went on between the two of you? Why?
1:21:35What happened? Where were you in that?
1:21:38It's
1:21:39it doesn't tell you much. Yeah. I'm so
1:21:42happy to hear that because I do think
1:21:43that the word is a relief and it's not
1:21:46that it's wrong, it's just that don't
1:21:48stop unpacking it there. Yeah. So, those
1:21:50words are really helpful for you to
1:21:52Yeah. categorize, summarize your
1:21:54experience,
1:21:55Mhm. but don't feel that that's the end
1:21:57of the investigation.
1:21:59Right. Like there's so much more.
1:22:00Exactly.
1:22:02doing yourself a disservice.
1:22:03Yeah, and the moment you're thinking
1:22:04about I found a word that finds
1:22:08all the problem outside of me,
1:22:10you're deluding yourself. When you find
1:22:12couples coming with financial issues,
1:22:15Mhm. is it really about money? Money is
1:22:17a big issue for people. Money is a big
1:22:20issue for people.
1:22:21You know, the question of money, one of
1:22:23the questions that people that couples
1:22:25deal with when they're fighting or
1:22:27debating about money is
1:22:30the deep question of
1:22:34mine versus ours.
1:22:36What's mine
1:22:38and what are we sharing?
1:22:40And the most concrete version of it is
1:22:42money, but it's everything. It's time,
1:22:45it's attention, it's airtime, it's sex,
1:22:49it's
1:22:51so much is like mine versus ours.
1:22:54But money is like, especially in our
1:22:56culture, money is like the most concrete
1:22:58way to talk about it and to fight about
1:23:00it. Like if you're making more money
1:23:03than your spouse or than your partner,
1:23:05who pays for dinner?
1:23:07Like what what's what's the vibe between
1:23:10the two of you? Is it shared money or is
1:23:12it No, we're still going Dutch.
1:23:15Right? Fights about money are are are
1:23:18about the concreteness of money, but
1:23:20they're also about
1:23:22where do I begin and end and what's
1:23:25us together. And then there's a whole
1:23:27other thing with money, which is um
1:23:29money is also something to do with our
1:23:32relationship with reality.
1:23:35Right? You you I mean, back to the idea
1:23:38of someone hiding a suitcase with bills,
1:23:40unpaid bills under the bed.
1:23:42Like how realistic is your relationship
1:23:45with reality, with what you have, with
1:23:47what you're making?
1:23:48Like when people talk about money,
1:23:50they're talking about reality in certain
1:23:52ways.
1:23:54What I I usually ask people, how do you
1:23:57think money should play out between the
1:23:59two of you?
1:24:00If you're making more money than your
1:24:02partner,
1:24:04what is your ideology on this? What do
1:24:06you really think should happen? Does
1:24:08that give you more power?
1:24:10Does that mean you should be making more
1:24:12of the decisions?
1:24:14Does that mean your partner should be
1:24:16paying for less? How do you think about
1:24:18it, each of you? Just what what's your
1:24:20basic ideology? Which is hard for people
1:24:23to acknowledge, right? They want to feel
1:24:26like, "No, money doesn't matter." But,
1:24:28it matters to everyone in some way or
1:24:30another. They have an ideology. So, are
1:24:32they willing to put it on the table to
1:24:34be honest with how they think about it?
1:24:37And then once you compare these
1:24:39ideologies, then we can have a
1:24:40discussion. It's back to the idea of
1:24:42like the the couple creating
1:24:45the their political
1:24:47backdrop. Like, what is the politics of
1:24:50this relationship? Are you like
1:24:52socialist? Are you capitalist? Are you
1:24:57What's your economic system?
1:24:58What if we vote differently?
1:25:00You probably will disagree. On some
1:25:02level, you will. Somewhere, you will
1:25:04disagree. And then it's going to get
1:25:05interesting. It's going to be like
1:25:07a congress, like, right? Debating what's
1:25:10the right way to do it. But, it's better
1:25:12to have that debate on the table rather
1:25:13than
1:25:15act it out in those like
1:25:17What was that film? There was that Oh my
1:25:19god, it's the film in which um the
1:25:22there's a shipwreck. There's this couple
1:25:24that are sitting at the dinner table and
1:25:26they're looking at each other like who's
1:25:28going to pull out the credit card?
1:25:29Oh, I don't know it.
1:25:31Brilliant scene.
1:25:33Everything about their relationship was
1:25:34in that scene. I don't know. I'm very
1:25:37sad to hear
1:25:38of pretending she lost her card. Oh,
1:25:41okay. And him but reluctantly pulling
1:25:44out his credit card and then there was
1:25:47It was just like perfect.
1:25:48I was thinking of a movie called Fair
1:25:49Play. I didn't see that.
1:25:51Did you see that? I heard about it. I
1:25:52didn't see it. I think you'd I I don't
1:25:54know if you'd enjoy it. I don't know
1:25:55your taste in movies, but I think it's
1:25:56pretty interesting.
1:25:58It's a story about where it's a movie
1:26:00made about
1:26:01a couple who are competing for the same
1:26:03job because they work at the same
1:26:04company.
1:26:06Oh.
1:26:06But, it's really dark. And it really
1:26:08goes into that
1:26:10the psychology of competition, gender
1:26:13roles, the pay gap. Yeah.
1:26:15Everything comes to play. Yeah. And it
1:26:17shows how it affects them from the
1:26:19bedroom to the boardroom to to
1:26:21everywhere else.
1:26:22Awesome. It's really well done. Yeah,
1:26:24it's really well done. It just It just
1:26:25shows you what's going on inside of our
1:26:27heads that doesn't often come out.
1:26:30And
1:26:32and and just how we all feel.
1:26:34And it's so interesting how society and
1:26:37all of this has such a play on how we
1:26:39feel about our role and who we are.
1:26:42Today we have so many more people to
1:26:44look at and view and see how their lives
1:26:47are going. I had I had a friend who
1:26:49his girlfriend made more money than him.
1:26:51Mhm. And he did really well for himself,
1:26:53but she made more money than him. So she
1:26:56but she expected him to pay for
1:26:57everything.
1:26:59And she wanted him not only to pay for
1:27:01dinners and rent and she wanted him to
1:27:05buy her a car. She because she believed
1:27:07that That's how she should be
1:27:09Because he's the man. That's how she
1:27:10should be treated. And that was you
1:27:12know, that was for her. Imagine them
1:27:14having a conversation.
1:27:16They ended up breaking up. But what
1:27:18would their conversation sound like?
1:27:20Literally this. I deserve this. I'm a
1:27:23queen. I'm a princess. I'm like this how
1:27:26I should be treated.
1:27:28Like this is
1:27:28she would She said something like this?
1:27:30stuff like this, yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's
1:27:33amazing.
1:27:33Yeah.
1:27:34That's amazing.
1:27:35And you see a lot of this language on
1:27:36TikTok and things like that about what a
1:27:38high-value man is, what a high-value
1:27:40woman is and a lot of the language and
1:27:43vocabulary out there today.
1:27:44is it What is meant by a high-value man?
1:27:46I mean, there's lots of different
1:27:48definitions, but generally it's someone
1:27:50who does has a good career, makes a lot
1:27:52of money, does well for themselves and
1:27:54you know, that the the obvious
1:27:56definition of it. Well, it's not
1:27:58obvious.
1:27:58Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but the
1:28:00To me it's not obvious.
1:28:00Yeah, it is obvious, yeah. But it's just
1:28:02interesting to hear how these societal
1:28:04ideas kind of because then we're like,
1:28:07oh, but you know, what a high-value man,
1:28:09you know, and and it's really
1:28:10interesting because
1:28:12in my world a high value man would be
1:28:14someone who has good values. Like Right.
1:28:17The good values being like ethics.
1:28:19Yeah, ethics. Yeah, exactly. Like
1:28:20character, moral character, like
1:28:22strength and courage and bravery and you
1:28:25know, honesty and you know,
1:28:27that's what I would consider a high
1:28:28value person, forget a high value man.
1:28:30Yeah. Um and it's interesting how all
1:28:32this language at play
1:28:34kind of cascades ideas quickly like you
1:28:37said, because it's easier rather than
1:28:39saying I'm with a good man, it's easier
1:28:40to say I'm with a high value man, but
1:28:42you know, what does that mean? Right. Um
1:28:45yeah, I was going to ask you, do more
1:28:48people want more intimacy or more sex? I
1:28:51think it dep- First of all, it's
1:28:54it's a complicated thing to draw the
1:28:57line between intimacy and sex.
1:28:59Oh, interesting. Okay. And I think it
1:29:01depends very much on the stage of the
1:29:04relationship.
1:29:06Early on one of the things, I mean, we
1:29:08all know that, one of the things that
1:29:09binds people, one of the strongest glues
1:29:12is sex, like
1:29:13passion and excitement about each other
1:29:16and like, you know, wanting to get into
1:29:17bed together.
1:29:19And then
1:29:21at some point people start coming to
1:29:24terms with like differences, differences
1:29:27in scripts, differences in appetite.
1:29:30I know that the the
1:29:34like the stereotype is that men are more
1:29:37focused on sex and want more sex and
1:29:39women want less or it's less important
1:29:41to them. I don't think that's actually
1:29:43true.
1:29:44I think again, it's very hard to make
1:29:46generalizations and it changes between
1:29:48like straight and queer couples. So,
1:29:50it's it's really not necessarily
1:29:53about the biology, but um
1:29:56but I think typically
1:29:59there there different focuses for men
1:30:02and women. And then later in the
1:30:05relationship things change because I
1:30:08think later in the relationship the the
1:30:12the line between sex and intimacy gets
1:30:14very blurry.
1:30:16And I think generally everyone wants
1:30:18both intimacy and sex.
1:30:21Everyone wants it and everyone wishes it
1:30:23for themselves and and wants it in large
1:30:26quantities.
1:30:27Everyone needs it. But they focus on
1:30:30different things. And no one has energy
1:30:32for it. And no one has energy for it.
1:30:34And anyway, a lot of it is about wanting
1:30:37to feel desire of some sort.
1:30:41That's what it is.
1:30:42That's really what it is.
1:30:44And not necessarily wanting, you know,
1:30:47oh, I need to to have it three times a
1:30:49week or I need this or I need that. It's
1:30:51it's it's a lot about the experience of
1:30:53desire and being desired that is really
1:30:56kind of the
1:30:58the thing we all want. The the to be
1:31:01living in desire rather than living in a
1:31:04certain kind of deadness.
1:31:06That's ultimately what everyone wants.
1:31:08That's so powerful because it goes back
1:31:10to what we were talking about earlier of
1:31:11like we just want someone to believe in
1:31:12us. Yeah. It's like we just want that
1:31:14feeling of like I have value. I have
1:31:16something to give. I'm I'm wanted. I'm
1:31:18desired. I'm needed.
1:31:20And people want to feel desire. To feel
1:31:22desired and also to feel desire for the
1:31:26other. And it's so interesting because
1:31:27it feels like our partners are the
1:31:29people that make us feel the least of
1:31:30everything because it's like a partner
1:31:33makes us feel the least desired. Mhm.
1:31:35makes us feel the less least important.
1:31:37We almost have this worry that if I say
1:31:40too many nice things to my partner, Mhm.
1:31:42they'll get a big head. Yeah.
1:31:44Or if I'm too nice to them, they'll
1:31:46think that they're better than me. Like
1:31:48I feel like there's a subconscious This
1:31:50isn't something someone would say, but
1:31:51there's this subconscious belief
1:31:53Mhm. of that I shouldn't honor my
1:31:55partner too much because it almost puts
1:31:57me in a weak position.
1:31:59sum kind of Yeah, like it almost like a
1:32:01feeling of like weakness. Like if I
1:32:02compliment them too much.
1:32:04Yeah. I'm weaker in this relationship
1:32:06because I'm the one who needs them more.
1:32:08It's a fear of vulnerability,
1:32:11of showing that you depend, showing that
1:32:13you need,
1:32:15showing that you desire. It puts you in
1:32:17a vulnerable place.
1:32:18Correct. Yeah.
1:32:20But it's
1:32:21I mean, I think
1:32:21where everything is. But yeah, people
1:32:23thrive in feeling wanted and
1:32:26appreciated. Anything that makes people
1:32:29more stingy,
1:32:30I think is problematic.
1:32:32Mhm. I think stinginess, withholding is
1:32:35like
1:32:37destructive.
1:32:38Mhm.
1:32:39Give more. Give, give, give. Give
1:32:41freely.
1:32:43Create a good environment around you.
1:32:45Arna, thank you for your time and energy
1:32:47today. You've been so gracious and I've
1:32:49genuinely loved talking to you. I feel
1:32:51like I had
1:32:52I feel like I had so many new thoughts
1:32:54and ideas today just being in your
1:32:56presence and now I'm like now I know
1:32:57what it feels like to be in the room
1:32:59with you and I'm like Sweet.
1:33:00Honestly, I mean that. Like I I just
1:33:02feel like everything was firing in my
1:33:04mind and I was connecting dots that I
1:33:05haven't before. So, thank you. It was
1:33:07such a joy. And
1:33:09Jay. It was wonderful questions and I
1:33:12love all the both the vignettes that you
1:33:15bring in that are immediately like oh my
1:33:17god, the whole world is in this
1:33:18vignette. And the questions you're
1:33:20asking, they're right at the core. Thank
1:33:23you. You're so kind. Yeah. Arna, we end
1:33:25every On Purpose interview with the
1:33:26final five. These questions have to be
1:33:28answered in one word to one sentence
1:33:30maximum. Okay.
1:33:31So, Arna, these are your final five.
1:33:34Okay. The first question is what is the
1:33:35best relationship advice you've ever
1:33:37heard or received? Stay in your own
1:33:39lane. The best relationship
1:33:42Why? How is that How does that Tell me.
1:33:44It means don't intrude on someone else's
1:33:48journey. Like stay in your own lane, do
1:33:51the thing you're supposed to do, and
1:33:53live and let live. Yeah. That's that's
1:33:55the best way to create a good
1:33:57environment for a relationship. Second
1:33:59question, what is the worst relationship
1:34:01advice you've ever heard or received?
1:34:03Don't let him get away with it. Mhm. Why
1:34:06is that bad advice?
1:34:07Cuz that's paranoid.
1:34:09It's like a
1:34:10like be suspicious, be paranoid.
1:34:14Don't give the benefit of the doubt.
1:34:16Guard your own.
1:34:18It's not a good attitude. Because?
1:34:21Because the way you the way you approach
1:34:23the way you look at a person, speaking
1:34:26of what we've That's what you're going
1:34:27to get back.
1:34:29If If you're paranoid about someone,
1:34:31they're going to be bad. Yeah. And it
1:34:33steals your energy. And it steals your
1:34:35energy, right?
1:34:36Question number three, what's something
1:34:39you used to believe was true about
1:34:41couples, but now you have a different
1:34:43view on it? Maybe I used to believe that
1:34:48compatibility
1:34:49is the most important thing.
1:34:52And now I think
1:34:56like I said earlier that the capacity to
1:35:00love someone who's different from you
1:35:03is the best source of growth.
1:35:06So well said.
1:35:08I love it. I'm I'm like I'm sold on that
1:35:10idea.
1:35:11Great.
1:35:11That's everything.
1:35:12Great.
1:35:13We've been spending too much time trying
1:35:14to find this like perfect match, perfect
1:35:17fit, who's like it's just like there
1:35:19isn't I think about that with my wife
1:35:21all the time. We are so different. We
1:35:22couldn't be more different.
1:35:24Yeah. Like in every way, in so many
1:35:26ways. And I'm a I love being alone, she
1:35:29loves being surrounded by family, like
1:35:31Yeah. I'm I'm super driven, focused,
1:35:34ambitious. She's fun, playful, doesn't
1:35:37take life seriously.
1:35:38That's great though.
1:35:39Like it's just but it's so different.
1:35:41I'm always on time, I like order, I like
1:35:44structure, I like systems. She believes
1:35:46in
1:35:47Spontaneity.
1:35:47Spontaneity and complete you know. Yeah.
1:35:50so that
1:35:51initially did create so many
1:35:54rifts and challenges. Like it was hard
1:35:56because it was like I was ready to go on
1:35:58time, she's not.
1:36:00Yeah. To me that's a big issue. It's a
1:36:02big issue.
1:36:04I want systems in order. I want to plan
1:36:05our weekend out or our vacation and
1:36:07she's like, "Let's just go and see how
1:36:08it goes." I'm like
1:36:09Yeah. That's like my worst nightmare is
1:36:11to like turn up somewhere and see how it
1:36:13goes. Like what if it's booked? Right.
1:36:15What if the show's booked? What if the
1:36:17Yeah.
1:36:17scuba diving's booked? Like whatever it
1:36:18is. Like what if it's booked? That's
1:36:20like my worst nightmare. So how do how
1:36:21do you do it now?
1:36:23How do you do the lateness not lateness?
1:36:26I realized that a lot of the things I
1:36:27wanted to be on time for didn't matter.
1:36:29Yeah. There were things that were Yeah.
1:36:31and things that didn't. Yeah.
1:36:32It was me holding myself to a standard
1:36:35that wasn't always necessary.
1:36:38Yeah. It comes back to her with the
1:36:39plates. It was the same thing. It was
1:36:41like sometimes it is important to be on
1:36:43time. Like today it was important for me
1:36:44to be on time for you.
1:36:45Yeah. Sometimes it's not important for
1:36:47me to be on time because it's casual and
1:36:49it's friends and you everyone's kind of
1:36:50turning up and you've got a window to
1:36:53turn up in. Like but I still want to be
1:36:54there on time because that's just my
1:36:56training.
1:36:57My mom always told me if you're not
1:36:59early, you're late. And so that comes
1:37:01from that training of just military
1:37:03discipline, which is what I live my life
1:37:04by.
1:37:05Mhm. So I had to learn that for the late
1:37:07thing.
1:37:08And then when it came on the
1:37:10the vacations,
1:37:12we planned we both wanted one day on,
1:37:15one day off. So if we go on vacation for
1:37:177 days, Yeah. three or four of the days
1:37:19are planned and three or four of the
1:37:20days are spontaneous. And we actually
1:37:22love that.
1:37:22Yeah. It worked out. Whereas I used to
1:37:24do 7 days planned, but that would
1:37:26exhaust me.
1:37:27Yeah. And so now I'm like, "Oh, this is
1:37:28actually a healthier solution." So
1:37:30Yeah. Yeah, taking from that.
1:37:32Question number four. What is the most
1:37:35difficult relationship
1:37:38you've ever had to help or solve?
1:37:41I I have two things that come to mind.
1:37:43One is
1:37:45a relationship in which um
1:37:49I did feel like one one in the couple
1:37:53was just too
1:37:55My explanation is that he was just too
1:37:57traumatized and he kept
1:37:59um
1:38:02really um viciously abusing his wife in
1:38:06my presence.
1:38:07Um and I really tried everything and I
1:38:10believe that they really wanted to
1:38:11change, but I
1:38:13I tried everything and I had no impact
1:38:17on him. No impact. Like he tried. I I
1:38:20sent him to read books. I I worked with
1:38:23him individually some some of the time.
1:38:24I had to like remove him from the room
1:38:27some of the sessions and and do some
1:38:29work. I I really put my heart and soul
1:38:32into helping them get out of this like
1:38:36extreme form of like blame and abuse.
1:38:39And um
1:38:42I did not make a dent.
1:38:45Aside the fact that I felt bad that I
1:38:47couldn't help them,
1:38:49it was also
1:38:51really a toxic situation to be in. Like
1:38:55the the sessions were
1:38:57just awful for me. Um
1:39:01So, that was probably the worst.
1:39:02And they didn't they stayed together or
1:39:05They actually stayed together. They did.
1:39:07I mean, I think the work eventually did
1:39:09help them um to some degree, but
1:39:13it was awful.
1:39:15When do you know divorce is the right
1:39:17choice?
1:39:19With that couple, I thought divorce was
1:39:21the right choice and they chose not to.
1:39:23I I I just couldn't imagine like why
1:39:27would a family keep going with that
1:39:30level of toxicity?
1:39:33Um I I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but
1:39:36they chose to stay together and that's I
1:39:38mean, people live the way they want to
1:39:40live. What can I do?
1:39:41But that would have been a situation
1:39:43where where I would say that the pain of
1:39:45divorce is worth it because you I don't
1:39:49think it's a good idea to live in that
1:39:51kind of
1:39:52abusive blaming environment day in day
1:39:55out.
1:39:57Another difficult situation was
1:40:01a couple that I cared about deeply and I
1:40:03really really understood them.
1:40:06It wasn't abuse, but they couldn't
1:40:09they couldn't stop repeating a certain
1:40:12pattern that was
1:40:14a direct
1:40:16replay of each of their childhood
1:40:18traumas. It wasn't abuse. It was just
1:40:20like
1:40:21issues around abandonment and
1:40:25that was very hard.
1:40:27The common denominator is situations
1:40:29where I'm I'm doing my best and I can't
1:40:32affect change.
1:40:33That's hard. How do you deal with that?
1:40:36I try hard. I'm like
1:40:38relentless. I mean I I will work with
1:40:41couples. I will sweat. I will put my
1:40:44heart into it. Um
1:40:47I'll think about it later. I'll read.
1:40:49I'll talk to colleagues. I
1:40:52I try.
1:40:54I'm like if I take on a couple, I'm like
1:40:56in it.
1:40:57But ultimately, you know
1:40:59stay in your own lane. People are going
1:41:01to live their life. I'll I'll bring the
1:41:03horse to the water if they
1:41:05repeatedly won't drink, it's I've got my
1:41:09life to live. Yeah.
1:41:11Fifth and final question. If you could
1:41:13create one law that everyone in the
1:41:15world had to follow, what would it be?
1:41:22Uh
1:41:23Okay.
1:41:25Do no harm.
1:41:28Do no harm.
1:41:30Beautiful. Yeah.
1:41:32Orna, thank you so much. Thank you, Jay.
1:41:35If you loved this episode, you're going
1:41:37to love my conversation with Matthew
1:41:39Hussey on how to get over your ex and
1:41:42find true love in your relationships.
1:41:44People should be compassionate to
1:41:46themselves, but extend that compassion
1:41:49to your future self because truly
1:41:51extending your compassion to your future
1:41:53self is doing something that gives him
1:41:56or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful
1:41:58life.

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