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Wilfred Reilly - Hate Crime Hoax, Selling a Fake Race War — Transcript

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0:00hey this is john leon guerrero today our
0:02guest is wilford reilly he's a professor
0:04of political science at kentucky state
0:06university
0:08which is a historically black college
0:10i'm leading with that fact because he's
0:12got a new book called
0:13hate crime hoax how the left is selling
0:16a fake race war
0:17and i don't want anybody to get lost in
0:19the book being mired in right wing
0:21ideology
0:22there are two things that we've learned
0:23about book titles with all the authors
0:25we've had on this show
0:27one they're usually influenced pretty
0:29heavily if not picked out right by the
0:31publishers
0:32and two there are keywords that
0:34publishers know will trigger a response
0:36by audiences and among them are
0:38left right god and the f word
0:43so what i'm saying is before you think
0:44you know what this book
0:46or this guest is all about think again
0:50dr riley is a deep thinker who uses data
0:53to reach conclusions and he and our
0:55brother dr rich laday really go after
0:57the impact of hate crimes in america
1:00with pete serving as instigator referee
1:04you're really going to dig this
1:05conversation with our guest today dr
1:07wilford riley
1:08lions rock productions
1:11[Music]
1:23hey this is john leon guerrero hey and
1:25this is pete a turner
1:29hey this is uh dr wilfred riley i'm an
1:31associate professor of political science
1:33at kentucky state university frankfurt
1:36kentucky
1:37i'm the author of the book hate crime
1:38hoax as well as the 50 million dollar
1:40question
1:41glad to be here on the break it down
1:42show
1:44[Music]
1:45and now the break it down show with john
1:47leon guerrero and pete a turner
1:51how's it going guys it's going great and
1:53also i have a fellow political scientist
1:56in-house we have dr richard the day
1:58making about his 1 millionth appearance
2:00on the show
2:00and for those who don't know rich and i
2:02have done a lot of work in afghanistan
2:04but
2:04what rich does now at troy university in
2:07alabama
2:08is well he teaches students about things
2:10but he and i work on trying to
2:11understand conflict a lot more and get
2:13better at it so
2:14welcome rich and of course welcome will
2:17this is going to be interesting
2:18conversation
2:19because we'll you're sort of i guess if
2:21i was going to be really unfair and
2:23brief
2:23you don't play the type like you say
2:26things that
2:26are based in fact and make us think and
2:29i imagine that
2:30you get hell from both sides of the
2:32equation
2:34fairly often yeah which i don't really
2:36care about anymore that i think you guys
2:38do
2:39but a focus a focus of my research is
2:41using modern quantitative methods
2:44particularly different varieties of
2:45regression in stata but a variety of
2:48them
2:48to test sort of sacred cow theories on
2:51the right
2:52and the left so i mean among other
2:54things i've looked at whether
2:55white privilege exists once you adjust
2:57for other variables like region of the
2:59country
3:00city size iq i've challenged the
3:03alt-right i had a pretty famous
3:05regionally televised debate with jared
3:06taylor
3:07where i called in to question some of
3:09their claims on iq i mean as you
3:10probably know
3:12if you think iq has value the tested iq
3:14for white groups like irishmen has
3:16increased from about
3:1779 let's say during army alpha basic
3:20testing during world war one world war
3:22ii to 102 today i don't think there's
3:24any genetic way that could have happened
3:26hate crime hoax is an offshoot of that
3:28line of research
3:30where essentially i mean you're just
3:31doing crosstabs analysis really for this
3:33book
3:33but where i look at what percentage of
3:35widely reported recent hate crimes were
3:37fakes
3:38and where i analyzed about 100 110
3:41specific
3:41fake stories that were very high profile
3:44that made the news
3:45so i mean many many recent high-profile
3:48hate crimes i'm not going to say most or
3:49almost all that wouldn't be true
3:51but a whole bunch of them from jesse
3:52smallett to yasmin sawed
3:55air force academy eastern michigan
3:58going back duke lacrosse tawana brawley
4:01coming forward key in college wisconsin
4:02park said
4:03these have been straight up total fakes
4:05so i was curious about why that was i
4:07break down each case and i try to
4:09analyze it from a polls or even a
4:11psychological perspective that's this
4:12book that wasn't the fifty thousand
4:15dollar question
4:16book right no that was that's posted
4:17okay hopes the hoax one
4:20okay well first of all i think this is
4:22fascinating that you would kind of go
4:24after some of
4:25it's an interesting interesting line of
4:27research i'm going to go after some of
4:28these big things
4:29that everybody says or all these big
4:31controversies where are you pulling your
4:33data from
4:35just tell me a little bit about the data
4:37that you're using
4:38for the book hate crime hopes yeah yeah
4:41i mean
4:42for hoax i mean this definitely was an
4:44academic
4:45work but the data analysis wasn't as
4:48complex as that in for example the 50
4:50million dollar question
4:51so for hoax i was really interested in
4:54simply how many hate crime hoaxes there
4:57were
4:57because this is something that was
4:59extremely contested
5:01to what struck me as a surprising
5:03politicized degree
5:05so you had researchers like brian levine
5:09who does good work from what i've been
5:10able to see but who claims that a
5:12minuscule portion
5:14of uh hate crime complaints turn out to
5:16be fake i recall his
5:18claim is .03 or .003 percent
5:22so i mean 0.003 percent would be
5:263 and 10 000 if i have the math correct
5:28that didn't sound
5:29accurate uh on the other hand you have
5:32conservative
5:33scholars you might use a quote mark with
5:35dinesh d'souza and calder who've said
5:38most of these are fake who will tweet
5:40you know this is going to be fake every
5:42time you see
5:43a hate crime in the media and i thought
5:46that the truth was almost certainly
5:47somewhere
5:48in the middle so what i did was simply
5:51use
5:52standard internet tools of analysis i
5:53mean google and advanced search bing
5:55jstor i looked through a period of about
5:5910 years and i just looked at how many
6:01reported
6:02nationally reported or nationally or
6:04regionally reported
6:06serious hate crime hope stories there
6:08were my data set right now which i'll
6:10probably send you guys after this is 618
6:12cases
6:13and while i want to emphasize that those
6:15are not totally in the past five years
6:17they're concentrated in the past five
6:19years which was my research period
6:21so i've got 618 of them and between
6:25specifically 2012 and early 2018
6:30when the book came out or when the book
6:32was sent into the publisher
6:33i've got around 400. so i i look at
6:36the number of these hate crime hoaxes
6:39that occurred and i find out it's not
6:410.003 right it's also not all of them
6:45uh it's a substantial number of
6:48a larger data set which is what i
6:50expected to find from the beginning
6:52and then you can analyze why this is
6:54happening then you can analyze
6:55so okay what's the actual percentage but
6:58essentially just
6:59i used internet search tools i found the
7:02cases
7:02um i compiled a book and an excel and
7:06status spreadsheet based on the cases
7:09how many hate crimes go unreported be
7:11they a hoax or not
7:13that's an interesting question i mean so
7:15all of this stuff the numbers are just
7:17up in the air
7:19um what i use is the fbi
7:22data set the annual data set that
7:24consists of all
7:25reported hate crimes right uh that would
7:28include any hoaxes or probable hoaxes
7:30that would include cases that produce a
7:32conviction and cases that don't
7:34beyond that i mean i guess you could
7:36look at the
7:38bearer of justice statistics annual
7:40crime data
7:41to see how many people reported that
7:43they were a victim of a hate crime
7:45and from that calculate the percentage
7:47of hate crimes that are reported to the
7:49police
7:50in general as i understand from last
7:52year's bjs
7:53uh 46 of all crimes were reported to the
7:56police
7:57and that was fairly consistent along
7:58most crimes although not
8:00obviously for sexual assault for example
8:02yeah but uh
8:03i don't tackle that i don't look at
8:05we're only 42
8:07of hate crimes reported that might be
8:08something to look at in the future for
8:10other researchers to look at
8:12what i look at is specifically out of
8:14the fbi data pool
8:16how many uh hate crimes turned out to be
8:18hoaxes
8:20and i i suppose there are a couple of
8:21different levels of analysis here
8:23so first i have 618 hoaxes
8:27second those are concentrated more than
8:30400
8:31of the hoaxes in about a five-year
8:33period
8:34of the past five years is a good casual
8:36way to describe that
8:37so the response from say a dr levine
8:40could be well over
8:41five years there are you know 35
8:44000 hate crimes reported to the police
8:49and you've found you know less than a
8:51thousand hoaxes that's still a miniscule
8:52percentage there are a couple of
8:54problems with that
8:56uh the most basic is that only about
8:58eight to ten percent of hate crime cases
9:01receive national or significant regional
9:04reporting
9:05right yeah so and you can empirically
9:07measure that if you scroll through the
9:08first hundred pages of google search
9:10results
9:11and you google hate crime 2016
9:14you're not going to find 7 000 cases
9:16you're going to find about 500.
9:18i generously estimate that about 10
9:21of cases are reported to the level where
9:23an ethical researcher could find them
9:26so that would be about 3 500 cases over
9:29a five-year period where i have say 400
9:31hoaxes
9:32so you've got a proven hoax rate over 10
9:36i estimate about 15 in the book the
9:39second level of that though is that the
9:41conviction rate in hate crime cases is
9:43extremely
9:44low so in the other 85
9:47of reported hate crime cases you don't
9:50have convictions
9:51which tends to be the assumption on the
9:53left side of this debate
9:55so dr levine for example is taking the
9:57full data set of hate crime
9:59allegations and saying well out of those
10:03you're only discovering
10:05a certain amount let's say one percent
10:07of proven faith
10:09the issue is that most of those 3 500 or
10:12he would argue 35 000 cases don't lead
10:14to convictions
10:16either uh in california in 2016 which is
10:19the most recent
10:20big state data i have i like larger data
10:22sets
10:23but i mean you had 931 reported
10:27felony or a misdemeanor hate crimes
10:30but of those only 220 even went forward
10:34to the prosecution which is a fairly
10:35basic standard meeting we don't think
10:37it's a hoax
10:38we have any kind of suspect in mind and
10:40of those 51 produced convictions
10:43so the conviction rate in hate crime
10:45cases that i've been able to analyze in
10:47stata
10:48is about six to seven percent whereas
10:51the proven hoax rate is about 15
10:55that's the most conclusive data estimate
10:58that i have
10:59so far yeah i don't know i got a lot of
11:01questions
11:02i'm trying not to treat this like a like
11:05a job talk you know interview or
11:07people just slam your slam your
11:09methodology but i'm just
11:10generally fascinated i'm glad you
11:12brought up the levels of analysis stuff
11:13though
11:14because that's i think it's important
11:15for the listeners to understand because
11:17it speaks to
11:18well how how you you can use the data
11:20that you have effectively
11:22okay and and i do appreciate you and
11:25again for the listeners
11:27being very transparent about your data
11:29sources and how you're
11:30how you're using the data but is this a
11:32social media problem that's
11:34blowing up because man hate crimes are
11:37bad
11:38the fact that it's hard time to get
11:39convictions for hate crimes
11:41that's bad too but has our new media
11:44environment it just
11:45exploded this situation so now we've got
11:49you know hate crimes happening and
11:50they're just getting more attention
11:52than they might have gotten in the past
11:54but specifically more national level
11:56attention
11:57yeah maybe i guess i'm talking about
11:59hate crimes in general
12:00whether they're hoaxes or not you know
12:03well i think that there are almost
12:04two papers there for the first one i
12:07mean
12:08so yeah you can analyze or even
12:11criticize
12:12data collection techniques for most
12:14projects including this one
12:15i mean what i really did was fairly
12:17simple i mean i found out that there
12:19are let's say 7 000 reported hate crimes
12:22per year
12:22i looked i did some pretty intense
12:24google and bing analysis i think and i
12:26found out you know almost exactly 10
12:28of those received national or regional
12:30reporting
12:31in that same kind of 100 page result set
12:35i found that you know going back through
12:37the years i analyzed you've got
12:38600 plus hoaxes and then i mean to some
12:41extent you could argue did you just
12:42divide
12:42600 by 3 500 well kind of
12:46i mean but that's the percentage of
12:48proven hoaxes
12:49that i've got now some of this other
12:52stuff like the question of how many hate
12:53crimes go unreported that's a
12:55fascinating question
12:56i don't tackle that in the book that
12:57needs to be tackled yeah i mean these
12:58are
12:59again talking to a professional yeah
13:01that's stuff people need to look at
13:02yeah hopefully i'll get a contract for
13:04another one well that doesn't
13:06that question was it to take away from
13:09no
13:09your book but it's really to illustrate
13:11how complicated this stuff can be
13:13because you've only got the known
13:15universe you don't know what the unknown
13:17universe looks like because it's just
13:19and you brought up you brought up you
13:21know i think sexual assaults is
13:22unreported crimes that's one of the most
13:24frequently unreported crimes
13:26yeah you know so this is a very very
13:29complicated
13:30line of research in general but you got
13:32to figure out where to start
13:34you gotta start somewhere yeah and i
13:37started with the simplest most
13:38widely available data set very bluntly
13:41the fbi data
13:42now i will say there's no particular
13:44reason from a research hypothesis null
13:46hypothesis perspective
13:48to assume that the false reporting rate
13:49would be
13:51dramatically lower or higher among
13:54you know higher profile lower profile
13:56even to some extent unreported case
13:58so i think that when you're looking at
14:0015 i think that is a low end estimate
14:02i'm treating
14:03everything that's not a confirmed hoax
14:06as essentially to some extent valid
14:10but the conviction rate in that set of
14:12cases is 7
14:14so i mean in reality you're absolutely
14:16right that there's one ambiguous
14:17universe of how many cases there are
14:19that's correct there's another ambiguous
14:22universe of
14:23how many of these cases that i'm
14:25treating as valid actually happen
14:27if we want to be blood i mean when you
14:28look at sexual assaults this is a very
14:30touching topic especially since we
14:32we all seem to be men i don't want to
14:33assume from everyone's
14:35beard and so on i'm a man you know
14:37sexual assault is a very underreported
14:40crime and men and women need to work to
14:41change that
14:42it's also one of the more frequently
14:44falsely reported crimes
14:45yes there's a book the campus rape
14:47frenzy out that i think
14:49frankly comes from a right or center
14:51right-wing perspective
14:52but where they make the point that
14:54perhaps only six or eight percent of
14:56rapes are
14:57intentionally falsely reported but that
15:00if you're looking at these collegiate
15:01standards of you know
15:03more than three drinks is rape as we
15:04teach our young men here
15:06a very large percentage of these crimes
15:08would not be effectively prosecutable in
15:10any jurisdiction
15:12so it's accurate to say that half or
15:14less of all sexual assaults are reported
15:16but it's also accurate to say that
15:17perhaps half of all reported sexual
15:19assaults are prosecutable
15:20and i think you're seeing the same thing
15:22with hate crimes i mean there's probably
15:24the standard 46 or whatever
15:26percent reporting rate but of those that
15:28are reported
15:29you've got a seven percent conviction
15:31rate so i mean i think to some extent i
15:33don't wanna be the guy that calls for
15:34more research
15:35but yeah people need to people need to
15:37look at you know what percent are
15:39unreported
15:40people need to look at what per why
15:42cases in that 93
15:43were dismissed are we talking no lay
15:46proseccis on the one hand when this may
15:47very well not have happened or are we
15:49talking about a witness so brutalized
15:50they don't want to come forward
15:51so yeah i think that there's a pretty
15:53intensive analysis you can do of all
15:55these data sets
15:56and i hope people do it i plan to do
15:58some of this for you know midwest
15:59political science american
16:01you know but obviously once the topic's
16:04been brought forward
16:05yeah once once reasonable scholars say
16:08look no we're not talking about three
16:09cases
16:10but also you know ann dinesh we're not
16:12talking about 7 000
16:14we're talking about 500 the question
16:17then becomes what do we do with the
16:18other cases how do we encourage
16:20more reporting i mean so there's
16:21obviously there's analysis to be done
16:23there
16:23so i want to bring up the point that you
16:25said it was a delicate issue talking
16:27about sexual assault
16:28but you're also a guy that deals in race
16:31and hoaxes
16:33white privilege so uh uh
16:36how yes that's why we started talking
16:38about it anyway i mean i'm not
16:40i'm not the most tactful guy and i don't
16:42necessarily think you gentlemen are
16:43either
16:43it's not the most tactful show you know
16:45what's funny though is that you see
16:46these
16:47two big bearded white dudes our most
16:49recent peer-reviewed published paper is
16:51a paper about female empowerment
16:53and so it's a feminist paper from a
16:55couple of dudes and ethics
16:57yeah an epic big bearded black guy on
16:59the show now so you know
17:00wait you're black university
17:07i want to get back to this some of this
17:08number stuff and i i meant
17:10i'm sorry if i'm touching on your toes
17:12pete because
17:13from stepping on your toes but you're
17:15talking about statistics and how you
17:17gathered your data and all this and you
17:19got
17:19the left versus the right and the
17:21rhetoric coming from the left the
17:22rhetoric coming from the right
17:24when the actuality is what's happening
17:27is somewhere in the middle
17:28right now it could lean left or it could
17:30lean right
17:31but in the midst of all this like
17:34missing data problem and you know what
17:36well the unreported cases in this case
17:38in this uh conversation
17:40how do you like first of all you got the
17:43problem of identifying this gap between
17:45rhetoric and reality which it seems like
17:47your book is but how do you show people
17:50you know how do you show them well other
17:52than writing a book
17:54you know how do you explain to people
17:55that there's a gap here between the
17:57rhetoric
17:58that you hear on the left and right this
17:59is the reality of the situation because
18:01one thing i'm big on is we need policy
18:05you know policy can help us fix or you
18:08know address some of the negative
18:10consequences of this stuff so how do we
18:13move in that direction where we're
18:15we're coming to agreement about where
18:18the gap
18:18is here between the rhetoric and the
18:20reality i frankly think that honest
18:23reporting and defining our terms to the
18:25basic rules in real science and real
18:27journalism that has to be where you
18:29start
18:30i mean to a certain extent there's an
18:31element of hilarity here where one side
18:33is estimating
18:340.3 let's say of the cases or fakes the
18:38other side is estimating 100
18:40and the reality seems to be 10 to 15
18:43there is a figure that's measurable in
18:45the middle i say 15. you could i mean
18:47you can look at my data and take some
18:48out
18:49add cases to the data set but there is
18:51an empirical reality that actually
18:53exists in my opinion i'm not a
18:54postmodernist at
18:56all in most situations so if you look at
18:597 000 hate crimes in a typical year
19:01and you find that 727 are nationally
19:04reported
19:05and you find that 113 of those are fakes
19:08then you have produced data you have
19:10found something reasonably close to
19:12knowledge
19:13it might be that the possible number of
19:15hoaxes could be 100 to 200
19:17but it can't be 727 and it can't be
19:20three
19:21so i mean i do think that this book is
19:23an attempt to produce some real data out
19:25there so that people can kick it around
19:27and people can talk about it and people
19:28can say
19:29you know riley focused on these years
19:32perhaps or
19:32riley needs to deal with unreports in
19:34his next book but now there's data
19:36there's not just a guy saying they're
19:38all fakes on twitter
19:39and i think to some extent that's kind
19:41of the debate you've been having around
19:43a lot of these issues
19:44a lot of these race issues seem to break
19:46down to big brother and big republican
19:49guy yelling at each other on television
19:51and there's not necessarily a lot of
19:52evidence the white privilege example i
19:54think is
19:55another example of this i mean what are
19:57the facts
19:59you know on a 1 to 100 point scale of
20:01satisfaction which is what i use
20:03how do white score versus blacks so a
20:05lot of these things are empirical
20:07questions and i this this book is an
20:09attempt to answer one of those empirical
20:11questions
20:12my next book by the way alt wrongs is
20:15targeted at the alt-right which i think
20:17is sort of an attempt by amateurs to
20:20present as scientists
20:22so i mean i think there's a lot there to
20:24for example the alt-right
20:25seems confused about the fact that if
20:26you want to use genetic race at all
20:28whites are caucasians so you can't argue
20:32for the genetic superiority of
20:34whites without showing that caucasians
20:36as a group
20:37tend to outperform other racial groups
20:39you'd have to show this about
20:40afghanistan moldava
20:42borat's country you can't do it so i
20:45mean
20:45i think that these empirical questions
20:47have a lot of value
20:49so there's an element of critique about
20:50how i asked the empirical question
20:52perhaps but the fact
20:53is that someone needed to ask it i think
20:55the book's a good start
20:57and i hope people respond to the book i
20:58hope for example dr levine or someone on
21:02the left side of this debate who's good
21:03says well no these are the weaknesses in
21:05this data set
21:06and then you move into a serious debate
21:08but it's not again
21:09and culture on twitter not to criticize
21:11anne who i'm dislikable by all account
21:13yeah you know i want to ask you it's
21:16funny because we you have to define
21:17terms right
21:19yeah what is white because i've been in
21:21areas where i've seen
21:23turkish dudes that are as brown as can
21:25be and they're like yeah i'm white
21:27like okay well now i got a problem
21:29because white is harder to find right
21:31and you're 100 right the uh you know
21:34caucasian
21:35there's an asian in that word and
21:36there's a root there
21:38so what are we talking about you know i
21:42mean
21:43a casual friend of mine is an executive
21:45with 23 and me and i've met
21:47other people who work for that company
21:48i'm not claiming any significant
21:49knowledge of their processes
21:51processes but my understanding is that
21:53what 23andme finds with these
21:55genetic background test they're really
21:57haplotype tests
21:59is that they're 22 to 25 which along
22:01with the number
22:02of human components of the human genetic
22:05code i think is the source of their name
22:06but they're 22 to 25 human population
22:09groups like iberian white
22:10sure and those break down into five or
22:12six larger cross-haplotype populations
22:15and it seems to me even though this is
22:17politically incorrect there's no real
22:18reason not to call those races
22:20once you get down to okay we've got six
22:22large human groups
22:23that contain 24 smaller human groups
22:26that you can break into blacks amber
22:28india and so on so that does seem to be
22:29a reality
22:30a caucasian is simply
22:34what's the i mean i'm not going to get
22:35into cranium shapes and all that i mean
22:37it's
22:38it's the non-black non-asian group
22:41represented among the three largest
22:43haplotypical racial groups
22:46a lot of the things that alt-righters
22:48argue
22:49for example that there's a sharp genetic
22:51distinction between northwestern
22:53europeans and
22:54other whites like eastern europeans uh
22:57africa
22:57middle easterners are all technically
22:59caucasian iranians
23:01afghans iraqis in the american climate
23:04look like dark-skinned white guys they
23:05look like italians
23:06so i mean the caucasian is simply the
23:09broad racial group
23:11you know angular noses straighter hair
23:13so on that would include
23:14whites but the argument that there's a
23:16distinction in performative terms
23:17between caucasians and whites seems to
23:19be
23:20kind of baseless you can't argue that
23:22moldavo where most of the people are
23:24blonde
23:25is a struggling country because somehow
23:26it's not a white country
23:28what most american conservatives seem to
23:31mean by white is northwestern european
23:33never touched by islam
23:35yeah um but that's a meaningless
23:37scientific
23:38categorization and you could do this all
23:40day like go and
23:42let uh you know an israeli jewish guy
23:45know
23:45that he's a semite just like he's the
23:48egyptian brother you know when they come
23:50from the same set
23:51like yeah and they're not white to the
23:53italian guy who's not white
23:55to yeah to the swedish guy and on and on
23:57and on yeah white is a pretty shitty
23:59description
24:00for something that we get so mad at all
24:02i know is
24:04the afghans thought i was an afghan
24:08and i've i had never been to afghanistan
24:12until i went to afghanistan and see rich
24:15where
24:15are traditional headdress there in
24:17afghanistan i was convinced that he was
24:19from afghanistan because he literally
24:21saw a guy that looked exactly like his
24:23uncle
24:24yeah i couldn't get over it no you're
24:26right though
24:27um but you're asking people to exercise
24:30a little bit of constraint
24:32you know and ideological constraints not
24:34something that
24:35a lot of americans are well familiar
24:37with or capable of
24:39in my opinion that's just my opinion
24:40that is not the opinion of my university
24:42i did not say the american citizen
24:45is not smart i did not say that i
24:48implied something
24:49more sinister let me ask you a question
24:51dr riley
24:52so we have this hoax knowledge do you
24:54have a sense for
24:56which one costs us the most in terms of
24:59civil disobedience or some kind of
25:01social problem is it the hate crime
25:03themselves
25:04the unconvictible nature of hate crimes
25:06or are the hoaxes
25:08the worst is it a cry wolf thing you
25:11know you do it too many times it's going
25:12to lose its effectiveness
25:14what what what are some of these costs
25:17well the costs uh so first of all i mean
25:20that's an interesting and very tough
25:22question i mean what causes more of an
25:24issue
25:24for race relations hate crimes or hate
25:26crime hoaxes
25:28i would probably say hate crime hoaxes
25:30because in most major hoax cases
25:33you first have the turmoil and the
25:35marches and occasionally the riots
25:37that would accompany the act if it were
25:39real and then you have to reveal that
25:41it's not real and the backlash anger
25:43from middle-classers conservatives
25:45whites and the like
25:46the cost of a lot of these is very high
25:49if you look at the jesse smollett case
25:51which by the way as always thank you
25:52jesse smallett
25:53helping me sell some books here yes
25:55jesse's pilot's hoax took place
25:57in the city i'm from chicago yeah in a
26:00neighborhood where probably a fourth of
26:02my friends live
26:02streeterville our young professional
26:04neighborhood and it was it was exposed
26:06as a hoax
26:08literally a week before my book dropped
26:10so just unbelievable coincidence i mean
26:12i was on
26:13tucker carlson some of the big black
26:15shows nick truth reports so on the day
26:17afterward talking about what this means
26:20for america and so on
26:22but at any rate banter aside i mean
26:24obviously the cost of that was
26:25extraordinary
26:26let me break in because i want you to
26:27say get back to the banter aside
26:29i also have some roots in chicago i've
26:30lived there and everything else
26:32and the moment anybody from
26:34streeterville or that who knows the
26:35neighborhoods
26:36the moment that story comes out you're
26:38like not a chance in hell
26:40like nothing about it rang true you know
26:42the time of night
26:43how cold it was the presence of manga
26:46ware and ruffians
26:47come on for those that don't know
26:50chicago streeterville
26:52is i think you'd say it's fair to say
26:53our young professional neighborhood yes
26:55probably 15 upper middle class black
26:58chicago's got a very large black
26:59community
27:0010 gay i mean there's a club life
27:03at the bases of the giant buildings at
27:05two o'clock in the morning they're gonna
27:06be
27:06plenty of people outside chicago's know
27:09how to dress for the cold we don't leave
27:10our faces exposed when it's
27:12negative 20. yeah the entire idea that
27:15that attack occurred in that
27:16neighborhood was
27:17fantastical it would be equivalent to me
27:20saying right now
27:21i'm an anti-racist i get along with most
27:23people but right now i live in a fairly
27:25scrappy white neighborhood in kentucky
27:27it's called south frankfurt
27:28the this would be equivalent to me
27:30saying in my neighborhood i went outside
27:31to work on my car and
27:32five black muslims who nobody had
27:34stopped nobody had confronted
27:36jumped out from behind a poplar tree and
27:38just kicked my ass
27:39i fought all five of them off i mean you
27:42guys have been in
27:43violent encounters you know how
27:44implausible that is yes i bought all
27:46five of them off like i was hercules
27:49and then i just went back into my house
27:50and that was the end of it like if i
27:52said that
27:53people would say well that's obviously a
27:55lie yeah that's a
27:56working-class caucasian neighborhood
28:00you're a scrappy enough guy riley but
28:01you didn't beat up five people
28:03i got my ice cream why don't you see
28:05this i got a scratch on my cheek
28:07he had a turkey sub in his hand come on
28:10i mean like just yes that was a
28:13ridiculous story but because of what the
28:15narrative is and we've all
28:16challenged the narrative at different
28:17points during this conversation but
28:18because there are certainly things
28:20that in a middle middle class cocktail
28:22party setting you are not allowed to say
28:24in america
28:25and that's as true for politicians and
28:26policemen as it is for anybody else
28:28because of that the city spent weeks and
28:31millions of dollars pursuing this
28:33fantasy is going to happen
28:34uh my understanding is that detectives
28:37my understanding because they told me
28:38but that detective level cpd officers
28:41were pulled off other cases
28:42and were forced to look through all the
28:44surveillance footage from every building
28:46in this area
28:47to see who had attacked smallett and i
28:50mean inevitably it turned out to be two
28:51buddies of his from the gym who were
28:53black guys
28:54the cost of that was millions of dollars
28:56rahm emanuel
28:58attempted to build smell it just for the
29:00overtime
29:01right patrol officers involved and it
29:03was 130 000
29:05so i mean the amount of hour time salary
29:08time for the brass
29:10the amount of time spent patrolling that
29:12area i mean eight million dollars
29:14is an estimate i've heard in the chicago
29:15papers so that's the cost of one of
29:18these incidents i mean this went on for
29:19two months
29:21now what do we lose in terms of actually
29:23getting to a point where
29:25there are no hate crimes you know maybe
29:27we've improved some of our race
29:29relations
29:30you see you can put a dollar amount on
29:31that you know
29:33but what if we also what is the hoax
29:35itself done in terms of
29:37you know all the nice white people out
29:39there that now have a reason to believe
29:41more on the the ann coulter right wing
29:45side of the equation where
29:46this is all you know false
29:49versus the extreme left wing where you
29:51know we need to take all of these cases
29:54seriously because what has this done to
29:56the public's perception of the issue
29:58not just the fact that now we're
29:59thinking we're thinking chicago is this
30:01violent place we would never have a
30:03reason to believe that
30:04but you got you're describing some parts
30:07of this
30:08of that city that if you're not from
30:10chicago you don't know that
30:11but now we've reinforced this image of
30:14chicago
30:15that isn't maybe really the actuality
30:18but all the other perception issues that
30:20we've touched on
30:21you know yeah i think a hoax like
30:23smallets that's a good question i mean a
30:25hoax like smallett's as we've just
30:27discussed costs millions of dollars
30:29in money it costs more than that
30:31probably in goodwill
30:33i think one point that you made there
30:34that's interesting
30:36is an obvious point that you rarely hear
30:38on the political left but
30:39most white people are not in this day
30:41and age racist
30:43and i think that this is kind of the i
30:45thought the nice white people line was
30:46funny but this is true
30:48so this is the good white people
30:51white people but i mean coming to you
30:54from alabama
30:56i'm sorry coming at you from alabama
30:59yeah all right where they recently uh
31:02took arthur off the air because the
31:03talking rat in the show married his
31:05boyfriend
31:06okay you know a lot a lot of great
31:09things about the state from football to
31:10the weather political climate's not
31:12always one of them
31:13but anyway i'm from kentucky make the
31:16same jokes there just with a wider group
31:18of people i mean
31:19and both of those are great american
31:20states it's just as easy to make fun of
31:22san francisco and i don't know if they
31:23contribute more to the country
31:24but getting into all this i think that
31:27the great unspoken reality of american
31:29race relations is actually that they're
31:30going fairly well
31:32if you look at american history of
31:35course of course we had
31:36a tragic history of racial conflict you
31:38know the last indian raid i believe was
31:40in the 19s
31:41whites blacks natives mexicans we
31:44conquered half of mexico and it was the
31:45half of most of the paved roads
31:47spent a fair amount of time butchering
31:49each other yeah that's
31:50correct but at the same time it's also
31:53true that america desegregated fairly
31:55forcibly in 1954 although it took some
31:57time to implement that
31:58speaking as a lawyer racism has been
32:01formally civilly and criminally illegal
32:03since or law school graduate practice
32:05but similarly and criminally illegal
32:07since 1965 the civil rights act
32:09affirmative action dates back to 1969
32:12with the philadelphia plan
32:14so i mean when i applied to law school i
32:16received about a
32:1820-point lsat advantage i would say over
32:21equally qualified white competitors
32:23that doesn't make up for slavery but
32:24it's silly to pretend slavery is still
32:26going on
32:27in reality as an upper middle class
32:29african-american you have a substantial
32:31advantage
32:32any time you apply for a fortune 1000
32:34job anytime you apply to a graduate
32:36school that's simply reality
32:38and whites have been fairly good about
32:40accepting this in fact
32:41so i mean for at least some period of
32:43time so there is no
32:44race war in the united states one of the
32:47most questioned statistics that i have
32:49in hopes and also one of the most
32:50obviously valid is that interracial
32:52crime is extraordinarily rare
32:55if you look at serious crimes like
32:56murder 94
32:58of black murder victims 85 to 86 of
33:01white murder victims
33:02are killed by someone of the same race
33:04generally someone they knew
33:06the person most likely to kill you is
33:07your ex-wife or i suppose for women your
33:10ex-husband
33:11so in reality there's not a massive
33:14amount of racial clashing that goes on
33:16in the united states
33:17and this sounds extraordinarily
33:19counter-intuitive
33:20because the media constantly promotes
33:22racial conflict is ongoing
33:24this is true on the left and on the
33:25right but in terms of hate crimes there
33:27are less than 7 000 hate crimes in a
33:29typical year
33:30i mean there are 12 million crimes in a
33:32year
33:33if you're looking at burglaries fist
33:35fights between tough black and irish
33:37american guys generally both within the
33:38same race
33:39car wrecked duis so all of the hate
33:43is concentrated in this category of
33:45seven or eight thousand incidences
33:47we don't have an enormous issue with
33:49race war racial violence
33:51one of the things that we do have is a
33:53fairly
33:54large sector of society that benefits
33:57from people thinking that we do
33:59so there are entire social institutions
34:02from ongoing affirmative action
34:04which now applies not simply to blacks
34:06but to all quote unquote people of color
34:08with the sometime exception of east
34:10asians uh minority set-asides i often
34:13joke on the radio that i could buy a
34:14radio station for about half price
34:16that's not really a joke at all the
34:19budgets of the giant
34:20activist group southern poverty law
34:21centers at about a half billion dollars
34:23just in the endowment
34:24all of this rests on the idea that there
34:27is consistent continued ethnic conflict
34:30and so does the entire alt-right by the
34:31way which runs these panicked stories
34:33about black crime
34:35constantly almost any situation in which
34:37either a white or black woman is killed
34:40by members of the other racial group is
34:41guaranteed to be a national front page
34:43news story
34:44but the reality is that those situations
34:46are remarkably remarkably
34:48rare so i think in fact there is not
34:51a major problem with epidemic racial
34:53conflict in the u.s sale there is
34:54certainly more than residual racism
34:56i think that the issue is with the
34:58promotion by the political quote-unquote
35:00sides of almost false narratives
35:02as we talked about with hate crime
35:03earlier and obviously hate crimes
35:05contribute to that
35:06so i'm gonna i'll say bluntly the
35:09majority of hate crimes even if not by
35:11a very substantial margin occurred i'm
35:14not attempting to say that all hate
35:15crimes are fakes nobody's not a hack
35:17would say that
35:18however if you have the majority of the
35:22high profile recent incident
35:24and it is the majority of the high
35:26profile cases jesse smallett
35:28yasmin sawed the burning of hopewell
35:30baptists we went to air force academy
35:32if those turn out to be fakes after
35:34months of coverage
35:35it's going to be very very easy for
35:37partisans on one side to say
35:39these are all quack jobs none of this is
35:41real
35:42and that's what really hurts race
35:44relations i'd like to see the media
35:46actually cover what's happening in the
35:48country it might be naive to say that
35:50but i think that from an empirical
35:51standpoint the most
35:53time and ink should be devoted to the
35:55things that harm the most
35:57people an obvious example would be
35:59suicide among our veterans that was i
36:01believe 16 000 men and women last year
36:04a car wreck we refused to build any sort
36:06of effective
36:07train line or tram line system in the
36:09usa just for no damn reason so 50 000
36:12people every year killed just tooling
36:13around the highway
36:14uh opiates there are real problems in
36:16the country and specifically in uh my
36:18state and yours richard i mean opioid
36:20epidemic is devastating
36:21that's not really focused on as much as
36:23all this [ __ ] shark attack
36:25terrorism people being small children
36:28being kidnapped
36:29these are horrifying stories of course
36:31but you have to ask how many people are
36:32eaten by sharks
36:34yeah yeah it sucks for those people but
36:36you know what
36:37i'm not sure if that needs to make
36:39national news
36:41yeah no that's some powerful stuff
36:44because i i do think i'd think that
36:47you're correct and
36:49the thing is too like how many people in
36:51the united states actually live
36:52very peaceful stable secure lives almost
36:55in terms of
36:56in terms of race relations now sure
36:58people
36:59deal with economic anxiety and different
37:02social stress
37:03stressors and and whatnot but in terms
37:05of race like
37:07our race problem might be
37:10overblown especially considering our
37:13history
37:14you know but but i'm i'm hearing i'm
37:16hearing a scholar
37:18tell me that things are not quite as bad
37:20as they've been
37:21and maybe they're improving as it turns
37:24out
37:24but the perception is the exact opposite
37:27and then rich let me validate what
37:28you're saying because you and i have
37:30seen this in our work in conflict zones
37:31and i saw it in iraq as well before i
37:33had met rich
37:34the specter of violence the specter of
37:37racial problems
37:38is significantly larger i totally
37:40believe you're saying that
37:41dr riley because we saw the same thing
37:44with with the specter of violence and
37:46threat in a place like iraq and
37:47afghanistan and i'm not saying those
37:49places weren't dangerous
37:50matter of fact they are dangerous but
37:53the day-to-day life
37:54of the standard afghan was not spent on
37:57the edge
37:58of life and death at any given moment in
38:00time absolutely
38:03the specter was significantly larger
38:05than the actual threat of what was
38:07happening
38:09yeah i think i don't think there's much
38:11doubt about this honestly and i've done
38:13it as i understand you guys have done
38:15some work about the culture of fear
38:17in america so first you're absolutely
38:19right even if you're in a third world
38:20country quote unquote
38:22the large majority of the time you're
38:23going to spend loving your wife planning
38:26your crops
38:27you know perhaps going to the city to
38:28work i never went the military route i
38:31respect it greatly
38:32you did many people do but i mean i
38:34spent i traveled solo through
38:36much of latin america uh late 90s early
38:39oos i was an afs volunteer for example
38:42i've been to
38:42costa rica nicaragua guatemala and
38:45there's no
38:46comparison of like first of all life
38:49there's peaceful most of the time
38:51secondarily there's no comparison of a
38:53third world favela with
38:54anything in america americans who behave
38:59as though their life is full of trouble
39:01and strife um i can say just having been
39:04to those countries anyone who's a
39:05soldier can say to a greater extent
39:07are bullshitting they're very often
39:09whining
39:10there is most of life is not full of
39:13horror
39:14and turmoil and very little of american
39:17life is
39:18so what you see in some of the most
39:20peaceful places on earth american
39:22collegiate campuses and so on
39:25is this tendency to take tiny incidents
39:28and amplify them into massive stories
39:31and that's what a lot of these quote
39:32unquote hate crimes are someone
39:34left a banana on the front door of the
39:36wealthy african-american fraternity
39:38house that kind of thing
39:40so yeah the my very strong
39:43opinion is that racial conflict
39:46is greatly conflict in general is
39:49greatly exaggerated
39:50in one of the world's most peaceful
39:52plumpus societies
39:54we have a media that exists and i'm not
39:57entirely brutalizing this but in
39:59contrast with say the bbc model
40:01we have a media that exists as an ad
40:02delivery vehicle
40:04so the stories that are presented in the
40:06media are those that will attract
40:08clicks and re-watches and that will get
40:10people to buy viagra pills and silverado
40:13pickup trucks
40:14that's a fact that's what the entire
40:16business model is and they're very
40:17consistent themes here like
40:20you are sexually inadequate which is the
40:23front cover
40:24of every women's magazine and most of
40:25the men's uh your children are going to
40:27be taken away
40:29you are going to experience the
40:30atavistic tear of being eaten by an
40:32animal
40:33you're going to have to fight the tough
40:35people of the other color
40:36both blacks and whites remember history
40:38the clan against the panthers are
40:40terrified of this
40:41but it's not happening now and that is
40:43important
40:44and and we're going to persecute you for
40:46your religious beliefs
40:48oh yeah that that is one of the most
40:50ridiculous
40:52i lean a bit right but one of the
40:54fantasy stories that's going on right
40:55now is this idea that islam is coming to
40:57america
40:58yeah it is um but the sharia law is
41:01going to be implemented you have states
41:03like
41:03oklahoma passing laws against sharia
41:06i mean the percentage of the population
41:09in the united states that's made up of
41:10practicing muslims
41:12you guys might correct this but i think
41:13it's 0.7
41:15so no no one's coming for the christmas
41:18trees
41:19no one is going to kill your children
41:22they're not going to
41:22start going to attack dubuque the left
41:26is responsible for some of this the
41:27rights responsible for some of it
41:29i do think the left is responsible for
41:31the fairy tales about racism
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42:06i do think the left is responsible for
42:08the fairy tales about racism
42:10you know there's a lot to be said for
42:12that too because when you look at the
42:13news and if you were to ask someone
42:15what's happened
42:16to current events the last three years
42:18not one person would talk about any
42:20nobel prize winners
42:21they wouldn't talk about scientific
42:23advances that don't get covered in the
42:24press
42:25they certainly wouldn't talk about all
42:26of our most recent peer-reviewed
42:28published papers
42:29but they would be able to tell you about
42:30all the trump things and everything
42:32you know all these other things or they
42:33would complain about and this is not an
42:35endorsement of the president i always
42:36have to say that
42:37but they would complain about oh
42:39secretary devos and how she's terrible
42:41at education
42:42without any capacity to have a
42:44conversation about any previous
42:46secretary of education
42:47and their success or failure they just
42:49know that they hate that
42:51and and that's what the news pedals in
42:53is this hate
42:54and you know really i fee i often don't
42:57watch the news at all and i usually feel
43:00less informed when i do because i think
43:02why is a shark tank
43:03you know news right it's just not
43:06newsworthy it's a
43:07it's a it's a random thing that happens
43:10i don't know let's say 18 times a year
43:13when someone gets chomped and dies in
43:14america
43:15and then if you want to talk about on a
43:18mama soapbox a little bit everybody i
43:19apologize
43:20you want to talk about dealing with
43:22plastic in the united states we are
43:24pretty good at capturing our plastic are
43:26we perfect
43:27no but if you want to have an impact
43:29dollar for dollar
43:30fly to the horn of africa with a bunch
43:32of garbage bags and just start filling
43:34them up there
43:35infinitely more successful and i promise
43:38you that's the case i tend to agree
43:40the environment is again one of the
43:43great undiscussed
43:44issues except for the screaming at the
43:46fringes
43:47and again there's kind of a natural
43:49tendency to focus on what's not
43:51too terrifying what you're used to what
43:54you feel you can stop
43:56so they're entire stories that really
43:58are never discussed like the possibility
44:00of meteorites hitting the planet
44:02yeah um my understanding is that nasa
44:05estimates we're going to have what's
44:07called a system destroyer
44:09sometime in the next 2000 years and we
44:11might or might not be ready for it
44:13because we don't know when it's going to
44:14arrive
44:15and this has happened before if you look
44:17at things like the real explanation for
44:19the tectonic glass
44:21on a few feet under most layers of soil
44:24so at any point
44:25asteroids or whatever the technical term
44:27is could hit the planet and kill us all
44:29we have no preparations in place for
44:31this and our space agency says it's
44:32probably going to happen
44:34it's clearly happened before but there's
44:35no point in promoting that story
44:37there's nothing that can quickly
44:39decisively be done to solve that
44:41potential problem
44:42and there's no way that story is going
44:43to make people buy the car or the pill
44:46so instead you get the specific
44:48short-term
44:49fear that people can understand and
44:51process quickly and it also gets
44:53magnified by you know the social media
44:56noise i'm going to go back to what i was
44:57harping on earlier
44:59because i know a lot of this hope stuff
45:01you know it'll get driven by the twitter
45:03and the facebook and the uh
45:05the whatever's whatever the kids are
45:07doing these days you know and it's hard
45:09to
45:09have a decent conversation you know
45:12at a high level where people agree on
45:14the terms you know
45:16their concepts they understand the
45:18measurement
45:19techniques they understand the analysis
45:21techniques
45:22so until we we can first agree on what
45:25some of the common problems are like yes
45:27there will be a freaking asteroid
45:29that's going to fly out of the sky and i
45:32don't know if we've got
45:33like do we shoot a laser at it or do we
45:35send a nuke i don't know
45:37you know but there's still a lot of
45:39problems though it's a lot of things
45:40like
45:41get back where we talk about this race
45:43stuff you know
45:44for the most part most americans are not
45:47going to be victims of a
45:49you know a cross-race crime
45:52whatever the proper terminology is but
45:54yet there's the perception that
45:55is it's really we got a lot of people
45:58that are kept scared
45:59and kept frightened by the other and
46:01there's race
46:02you know bring in gender and sexuality
46:05bring in religion bringing all this
46:07stuff
46:07and you know the media perpetuating this
46:10this fear factor you know that's
46:13actually preventing it's the fear factor
46:14i think that
46:15if we're looking for a reason why we
46:17can't get along and kind of
46:18shrink the gap between rhetoric and
46:20reality this fear factor really prevents
46:23us from
46:24finding out what our common terminology
46:27is you know
46:28figuring out that agreement reality you
46:30know not the mediated reality we get
46:32from
46:33our twitter feeds and our facebook you
46:35know but that agreement reality that we
46:37can agree this is what this is what the
46:39numbers show this is what's happening
46:40this is the empirical evidence you know
46:42i wanted to say real quick too dr
46:44riley's book is called hate crime hoax
46:47how the left is selling a freak
46:48race war you guys can buy that on amazon
46:51and here's the deal for those of you who
46:53don't know
46:53when you buy a book on amazon to help
46:55the author out of course you bought the
46:56book that's great
46:57but rate it and review it so give it
47:00five stars give a review
47:01that helps other people find the book i
47:04can't stress this enough
47:05if you want to support what dr riley's
47:07doing that is the best way to do it
47:09i want to ask you a little bit more
47:12about
47:13some of your other stuff and race your
47:1450 million dollar book
47:16is the 50 million dollar question is is
47:19an interesting topic and we've talked
47:21about white
47:21privilege but when you looked at the 50
47:24million dollar question you were kind of
47:25challenging
47:26or expanding on the work done in the mid
47:2890s by another person
47:30can you talk a little bit more about
47:31that so we can kind of dig in
47:33yeah actually one very quick comment i'd
47:36like to respond to what rich said about
47:37the media
47:38and fear please and this is the last
47:40thing about the fear stuff but i don't
47:42think we're over hyping the effect of
47:43the media here
47:44one of the things you've seen really
47:46emphatically in the past
47:4830 years is that and we're all old
47:50enough to remember that
47:51again i don't want to assume you guys
47:52can identify a seven or whatever
47:55i i identify as a puerto rican man who's
47:58six foot three
47:59six-pack abs throws 102 miles an hour
48:02and
48:02is wealthy that is what i am just so you
48:05know i identify as a sushi burrito of
48:07myself
48:08i love a sushirito sushiritos are great
48:11but okay so
48:12the media there we really have seen the
48:15closing or the shortening of the news
48:16cycle i've seen both terms used in the
48:18literature
48:19but i mean for a very long time dating
48:21back to the 70s for example if you're
48:23talking about you know cronkite and kind
48:24of the old bulls there
48:25you had news once a day for an hour it
48:28was reasonably well done it was the
48:30truly big events you might see an
48:31interview with
48:32yasir arafat or something like that and
48:34that was it you know the japanese
48:36emperor is visiting the usa okay round
48:38of slow claps it was that sort of thing
48:40then in the 80s you saw the development
48:42of
48:43i guess tnt really was one of the first
48:45cable resources turner's business
48:47but you saw the development of what very
48:49rapidly tnt
48:50fox became very news focused so you had
48:53the cable newsers and then you had news
48:55on perhaps 12 hours a day interspersed
48:57with punditry
48:58now with social media you can't escape
49:01the goddamn news
49:02if you go onto your computer to check
49:05the baseball scores
49:07everything you see is going to be you
49:09know first white baseball player to neil
49:11happened yesterday
49:13you know in the same city once you click
49:15on an article from a city what are the
49:16horrific murders in that city
49:19what's the racial conflict in that city
49:20are they marching and you start thinking
49:22why would i ever want to go there
49:24you know in reality if you went to that
49:26city if you went to little rock
49:29during the worst periods of gang
49:31violence or chicago during the biggest
49:32black lives matter occupy marches
49:3499 of the pleasant tourist district you
49:38were in would be the same as it had ever
49:41been
49:41you would have absolutely no negative
49:43experiences but we don't see that now
49:45because of the shortened closed news
49:47cycle every day
49:48every minute i get facebook and twitter
49:51updates on my phone
49:52as i'm starting to grow those profiles
49:54so every minute i see something like
49:5610 more people like you but someone got
49:58killed horribly
50:00so that obviously affects how we see the
50:02world um
50:03so that actually the way this ties into
50:05my research i'm not just rambling on
50:07i wrote an article the standard
50:09mid-level journal solid piece but it was
50:11called hearts all at twitter
50:12and i look at how exposure to social
50:15media
50:16impacts fear so i asked people i did a
50:19quantitative survey of maybe 500 people
50:22and i asked them how aware are you of
50:23just these horrific incidents
50:24that fell along racial lines the michael
50:26brown shooting
50:28trayvon martin and his hoodie but i also
50:30threw in white cases to be balanced i
50:32mean kate steinle being murdered by an
50:33illegal immigrant
50:35i don't know if you remember this case
50:36it didn't fit the narrative rapidly
50:38vanished from the media but uh
50:40angry black former anchor walked into a
50:42tv station and shot two colleagues on
50:44air
50:45i asked about that one yeah remarkably
50:48short tenure for that story
50:50but um i asked people how aware they
50:52were of these horrible incidents
50:54and i also asked people how fearful they
50:57were i mean a series of questions like
50:58how comfortable would you be walking
51:00through a typical
51:01integrated working middle class
51:02neighborhood at night would you say that
51:04america
51:05is a crime-ridden place strongly agreed
51:07on to strongly disagree
51:08and without going in depth about the
51:10regressions and cross tabulations and so
51:12on i found an incredibly strong
51:14statistically significant .001
51:17correlation
51:18between just exposure to social media
51:20and one awareness of these horrible
51:21incidents
51:22and two fear so there's an argument to
51:24be made for turning i'm hardly the
51:26paper's chock full of citations i'm
51:27hardly the first to find this
51:28this goes back to glasner 1996 i mean
51:31immediate exposure and fear
51:32but i mean so there's an argument to be
51:33made for turning off the tv quite often
51:36the more you're exposed to this crap the
51:38angrier the more tense you're gonna be
51:40and it's designed on an addiction model
51:42right like do you really need to wait
51:44exactly five seconds and then tell me
51:46each one of my likes
51:48like couldn't you once a day say you've
51:50got 36 people that read the article
51:52well sure you could but that that's like
51:54how you design a cigarette you
51:56constantly lift it to your mouth that's
51:57how addiction happens
51:59you know every 30 seconds someone's
52:01going to argue with you or love you
52:04and because i debate the alt right and
52:06the hard left i get crazy messages like
52:07people tell me they want to sleep with
52:09me
52:09they want to kill me just nonsense but
52:12every minute i'll get someone like i
52:13want to
52:14bleep or kill you and i am very wired
52:17into
52:18this system that tells me these things
52:19so turn it off but uh my other research
52:23the 50 million question is a book with
52:25these small academic press scholars
52:27so this is not something that's been
52:28selling as much as hoax nor
52:30should it be but um it's a book with an
52:33academic press that began as my doctoral
52:36dissertation
52:37and what i do there is test a question
52:39that andy hacker asked back in 1992
52:42who andrew hacker became very famous the
52:44fame of his book two nations didn't
52:46really start fading until around 2006
52:482008
52:49but he became very famous for a book
52:51arguing that racism is still ongoing
52:53but one of the questions he asked in
52:54that book he took a small in pool
52:58of students who are mostly white guys
52:59from queens new york
53:01and he asked them how much they would
53:02have to be paid to become black
53:05and it's a genuinely interesting
53:06question the the average answer is 50
53:08million dollars
53:10so hacker took this to indicate the
53:12value of white status in a racist
53:14society something he says explicitly
53:16this is one of along with the invisible
53:19knapsack this is one of the first
53:21publications that look at white
53:22privilege so for my dissertation i was
53:24interested in whether this really has
53:26anything to do with white privilege
53:28since we're in college in the
53:29affirmative action era or whether people
53:31simply
53:32value their identities so i designed
53:35this entire experiment that tested quote
53:37unquote value of whiteness theory
53:39versus standard theories of in-group
53:41identification and the end game of this
53:43was that i asked a bunch of people into
53:45the thousands
53:46how much they'd have to be paid to
53:47change four core characteristics
53:49race sex sexual orientation and religion
53:53if they had a sincere religious belief
53:55and i found a bunch of interesting
53:57things
53:58first of all whites again said they'd
53:59have to be paid 50 to 60 million to
54:01change their identity
54:02but the flip side of that was that black
54:04said they'd have to be paid about 80
54:06million
54:07um and both groups expressed negative
54:10stereotypes of the other i wouldn't
54:12receive affirmative benefits if i was
54:14white
54:14i wouldn't be able to dance if i was
54:16white but i have to dress
54:17like them both groups and whites and
54:20blacks at southern illinois
54:21university get along very well so both
54:23groups are kind of trolling each other
54:24like
54:24no i don't want to wear a size 5x jersey
54:28like the black guys i'll leave the
54:30brothers i wear a polo shirt
54:32some of it was funny some was mean but
54:34both groups said no
54:35i'm not going to change my identity
54:37that's point one the most
54:39racist if you define this is racist at
54:41all and i don't but the most racist
54:43groups in america are in order
54:44older asian men and young black women
54:48whites finish about midway down the list
54:50so that's finding one
54:52finding two is that people value a bunch
54:54of stuff more than race
54:56so in terms of changing my race if you
54:58actually
54:59the question was how much money would
55:00you have to be paid assuming this is a
55:01valid question
55:02you know assuming you could do this uh
55:04in all honesty if you brought me a
55:05suitcase with 10 million dollars in it
55:07and said will you be white i would say
55:09yeah i mean i don't care sure i'm gonna
55:12buy a big house and then i'll limit it
55:13as a white guy
55:14whatever but i mean the things that
55:16people wouldn't that was a common
55:18reaction among males the things that
55:20people wouldn't change
55:21were in order sexual orientation and sex
55:25and you you don't want to get into a
55:27realm of being glib with this but if you
55:28ask a bunch of men hey would you change
55:30to become a submissive homosexual
55:32tomorrow
55:33for x amount of money many men are going
55:36to say
55:36no i would not sir so that was the most
55:40notable conclusion people did not want
55:42to be gay
55:43gay people didn't want to be straight i
55:45mean they had some comments about what
55:47oral sex with a woman would be like for
55:48example
55:49um you know people don't want to change
55:52that people didn't want to change their
55:53sex
55:54virtually no women wanted to be men so i
55:56found
55:57a virtually no support for the
55:59hypothesis that
56:00self-identification is tied into
56:03sort of dominant group status the idea
56:05of white privilege
56:06seems largely unsupported uh black
56:09people
56:10are as self-confident as white they are
56:12as proud of being black as whites are
56:14being white fact a bit more so
56:16in both cases so yeah just no evidence
56:18found for that
56:19i did find some interesting things uh
56:21religious people are becoming more
56:23ecumenical
56:24most religious people would change at
56:25least some aspect of their faith for
56:27about a million dollars people often
56:28said things like
56:29these are basically the same we all have
56:30one god so it's it's hard to imagine
56:33the same responses coming from people
56:35during say the crusades versus jihad
56:37there
56:38but um yeah that was the book the 50
56:40million dollar question i look at why
56:42people value identity
56:44and i kind of practice with my
56:45methodologies because i'm getting out of
56:47grad school and i want to show off to
56:48potential employers
56:49i do a list experiment i mean those are
56:52fine stuff in there
56:53massively multivariate regressions i
56:55tried to sneak in a time series but my
56:57panel said
56:58you know you're doing this over two
56:58years there's no way that's legitimate
57:00you're not here to do math exercises
57:02so i did that was that was the book this
57:05is the funny thing though because rich
57:06and i deal with uh
57:07what i call the ground truth right like
57:09ground truth is the reality when you go
57:11into
57:12you know platte river kansas and you
57:13start having a conversation
57:15and so at the time we were doing some of
57:17this stuff i was
57:18i was in kansas city missouri area and
57:21we were looking into
57:22torture and like abu ghraib and all
57:24those scandals
57:26and this guy this guy says to me super
57:28clear and candid
57:29like the ground truth often is he's like
57:32anything similar to pay to have sexually
57:34done to them
57:35cannot be tortured there you go
57:40creates a real clear line you know i
57:42don't know about that at all i mean
57:45you know i'm sure people would pay to i
57:48mean people do frequently pay to have
57:50anal sex and gay brothels i mean if i'm
57:52overseas in an advising role and i'm
57:54captured i hope this isn't going to
57:55happen
57:56you know i disagree with that i don't
57:58think that's valid at all
58:00yeah yeah even urinated on i mean there
58:02are plenty of war crimes that someone
58:04would pay
58:05to have done perhaps in the privacy of
58:07their own home i don't i don't know
58:08about that one
58:09yeah but that guy's got a perception and
58:11you're not going to change this yes
58:13yeah the thing is the ground truth like
58:15that is a reality that's there for that
58:17person
58:17and and it does it doesn't validate it
58:20for everybody as you're saying
58:21but when you hear things from the ground
58:24truth they do have a
58:25they do lend a clarity where you're like
58:27okay i've got to get by this whatever
58:28this is
58:29whatever that thing is and this racial
58:31stuff is interesting because
58:33we do struggle at least mentally with
58:37what race is and
58:38and what race isn't and one of the
58:40things we hear a lot of is that
58:42being a racist is about power but you're
58:44saying that you don't you didn't find
58:46that
58:47well i think that so there are two
58:49levels there first of all i don't think
58:51anyone would disagree
58:52that blacks and whites if you read the
58:54research going back to say schneiderman
58:56and carmine's 1997 in politics
58:58no one would deny that blacks and whites
59:00display similar levels of racial
59:01hostility black sometimes test is higher
59:03than whites
59:04so i think that what you're talking
59:05about is in my opinion a leftist dodge
59:08uh just as there are some rightist
59:09dodges but that's just the attempt to
59:11say okay we're racist but we're not
59:12really
59:13so that's that's something a little
59:14different the argument is that you can't
59:16be
59:16racist unless you have prejudice plus
59:18power
59:20and my counterpoint to that would be
59:21well then the clan can't be racist
59:23i mean this is a group of spectacularly
59:26powerless people
59:27they're specifically distinguished from
59:29the rest of the white community by the
59:31epithets
59:32deep southerner white trash there's no
59:34argument that this is a power
59:36base somehow linked to the northern
59:39white power base in this country
59:40are you saying that a klansmen can't be
59:42a bigot what about one of the many
59:44clansmen who's half native if you insist
59:46on this sort of minority purity
59:47and at that point the opposing debater
59:49will probably say okay let's agree to
59:50disagree that's a good point
59:52but i've never seen any validity to the
59:54argument
59:55that you can't be racist unless you're a
59:58member of a temporarily dominant group
1:00:01i mean imagine that in for example south
1:00:02africa where the blacks and whites
1:00:04frequently flip the power position
1:00:06and where there are more than one group
1:00:08of whites by the way they're englishmen
1:00:09bowers south african jews all of these
1:00:12groups i don't want to say
1:00:13hate each other that's a functioning
1:00:14second world country but zulus and boers
1:00:16haven't liked each other for a really
1:00:18long time if you read military history
1:00:21so are you only racist as opposed to
1:00:24ineffectively personally prejudiced
1:00:26in years when the zulu party wins
1:00:28against the afrikaner party
1:00:29that doesn't make any sense in the
1:00:31international arena
1:00:32that to me is kind of an attempt to say
1:00:34okay look
1:00:36the black panthers aren't like the clan
1:00:38because of this excuse we're gonna make
1:00:39i think that's something that's come out
1:00:41of american domestic politics
1:00:43in reality if i could add one thing to
1:00:45that i don't want to cut anybody off but
1:00:46i mean
1:00:46the reality is that the crazy hard left
1:00:49if you're talking about the nation of
1:00:50islam
1:00:51uh the new panthers and the black
1:00:53panthers black bloc
1:00:55the actual fighters for occupying black
1:00:57lives matter i mean i just now got to
1:00:59antifa
1:01:00animal liberation front earth liberation
1:01:02front the asalon movement the woke
1:01:05gangs if you read vice lord lit l rook
1:01:07and lit
1:01:08i mean those guys are as nutty as anyone
1:01:10on the right there's no
1:01:11practical moral distinguisher between el
1:01:14rouken or the nation of islam on the one
1:01:16hand the clan on the other
1:01:17so this argument that only one of these
1:01:19groups can display significant prejudice
1:01:21i just don't agree with no i think
1:01:25well i guess my view of the literature
1:01:27you can have you can have prejudice on
1:01:29any side of the political spectrum yeah
1:01:31of course you know and that's
1:01:33it's just all these left-wing groups i
1:01:35mean i do see them as kind of
1:01:38nowadays as a reaction to the right wing
1:01:40groups but to go back to the social
1:01:42media thing and the perception things
1:01:44like
1:01:45how it i think it's kind of hard to get
1:01:47through to some people who are
1:01:48who would call themselves members of
1:01:50these groups are part of these movements
1:01:53to understand that they maybe sometimes
1:01:57their thoughts and feelings are grounded
1:01:59in what's not the reality
1:02:01you know like the reality of these
1:02:03hoaxes
1:02:04you know these it's if i believe
1:02:07something that's not true that
1:02:09i guess doesn't make my belief not valid
1:02:12it just means anybody who's trying to
1:02:13reach out to me has got a harder [ __ ]
1:02:15time
1:02:16reaching out to me you know yeah i think
1:02:19this gets into the whole idea of
1:02:20my lived experience and so on
1:02:23yeah and this because discourse in
1:02:26america
1:02:26tends to be dominated by the left if you
1:02:28look at the ngo sector the media
1:02:31academia there's more of a reluctance to
1:02:33criticize left-wing nonsense beliefs
1:02:36than right-wing nonsense believes and
1:02:38there's no shortage of left-wing
1:02:39nonsense beliefs
1:02:41i mean when you see people at the most
1:02:43recent women's march walking around in
1:02:45hijabs and burqas talking about how
1:02:47feminist islam is
1:02:48that strikes me as an empirically
1:02:50challengeable point
1:02:51but i mean more broadly many of these
1:02:53points are
1:02:54black lives matter's contentions come to
1:02:56mind where the argument is
1:02:58generally said verbatim the police kill
1:03:00thousands of mostly innocent black
1:03:02people per year
1:03:03the reality of course is that only about
1:03:051200 people in a typical year is shot by
1:03:07police at all
1:03:08about 200 and 250 of them are going to
1:03:10be black
1:03:11uh in the year i use for review in hoax
1:03:15the total number of unarmed black men
1:03:17shot by white cops was 17.
1:03:19so i mean those are facts but if you say
1:03:22those facts to someone who's on the hard
1:03:24left yeah you're probably going to get
1:03:25an angry
1:03:26a hostile response i don't really think
1:03:28that there's anything you can do but
1:03:30keep saying the facts just as it's true
1:03:32that if you add in
1:03:33afghanistan and iran and iraq
1:03:36caucasian palestine caucasian countries
1:03:39aren't necessarily any more peaceful or
1:03:41higher iq than any other countries
1:03:43it's also that's a point against the
1:03:44hard right it's also true that cops
1:03:46don't kill 10
1:03:47000 people a year so if you pull up hard
1:03:50statistical data
1:03:51from any of our three fields and someone
1:03:52looks at it and says well no that's
1:03:54[ __ ] i'm living my dream
1:03:56there's not much you can do except you
1:03:57know go talk to the next guest at the
1:03:59cocktail party or
1:04:00take the question from the next question
1:04:01or at the debate like it's hard to
1:04:03change a fanatic's mind
1:04:05but you have to be very aware of what
1:04:06the facts are in order for you to set
1:04:08positions in your mind
1:04:10yeah and i think also for some people
1:04:12who and this is one of the
1:04:14one of the benefits of an education
1:04:16specifically higher education
1:04:18the ability to understand when you're
1:04:19having a conversation there's a
1:04:20difference between my experience
1:04:22but then also the experience of
1:04:26let's say my people to go back to what i
1:04:28said
1:04:29the good white people how's the
1:04:31experience of the good white people in
1:04:33this part of the world
1:04:34you know that may or may not be the same
1:04:36as my individual predicament
1:04:38you know so again we've got this this
1:04:41levels of analysis issue like are we
1:04:43talking about
1:04:44the issue as it pertains to individuals
1:04:46are we talking about
1:04:48as it pertains to individuals who are
1:04:50members of a group
1:04:51are we dealing with a group phenomenon
1:04:53you know because i
1:04:54totally um like this this hate crime
1:04:57hoax stuff
1:04:58just it fascinates me you know um
1:05:01but you know that it doesn't mean to say
1:05:03like you know we were talking a little
1:05:04bit earlier about
1:05:05maybe we aren't maybe we don't have as
1:05:07much problem with race as we think we do
1:05:10now that doesn't detract from some of
1:05:13the other points like yes black people
1:05:15and white people in society
1:05:17are still treated differently in the
1:05:20economic system
1:05:21you know perhaps there are some broader
1:05:24more aggregate level differences that we
1:05:26can point to
1:05:27so what is what is that kind of levels
1:05:30of analysis
1:05:31issue like me versus the experiences of
1:05:34my group
1:05:34how does that come into play with some
1:05:36of this stuff i think that's an
1:05:38excellent question i think they're
1:05:40really
1:05:40two things there so i'm actually going
1:05:42to take a quick note here
1:05:45the two things i wrote down were the
1:05:46individual versus the group
1:05:48and b multivariate so one like
1:05:51and this is my bias like virtually
1:05:53everyone with a business background
1:05:55virtually everyone on the center right i
1:05:56prefer to think of people as individuals
1:05:58and my quantitative training has
1:06:00strengthened that because with every
1:06:02individual there are so many variables
1:06:04iq
1:06:05loa level of aggression social class
1:06:08social class
1:06:09social class social class but i mean
1:06:11attractiveness
1:06:13appearance you know urban rural which we
1:06:16ignore
1:06:16north south which we ignore so many
1:06:19things that are going to predict your
1:06:20probable position
1:06:21that you generally have no veteran
1:06:23status
1:06:24did a relative die birth order there's
1:06:27so many things that are going to affect
1:06:29how happy and wealthy you're likely to
1:06:30be at a particular set of years
1:06:32that looking at someone and assuming is
1:06:34almost a waste of time
1:06:35i mean you could say at the one level
1:06:37the univariate level well someone's
1:06:39jewish that means they're more likely to
1:06:40be wealthy
1:06:41well jewish from where the south side of
1:06:43chicago
1:06:44i mean if your dad owns a corner store
1:06:46in bridgeport you're not a millionaire
1:06:47man
1:06:48you might be the richest guy on that
1:06:49block but it's relevant to know someone
1:06:52to jewish american it's also relevant to
1:06:53know their jewish american from the
1:06:55south side
1:06:56both of those facts are relevant without
1:06:58knowing both of those facts you really
1:07:00have
1:07:00no betting insight on where someone's
1:07:02coming from
1:07:03so i mean for example to me the idea
1:07:05that i'm gonna distinguish prejudice
1:07:07from racism a bit
1:07:08but the idea that you can't be racist
1:07:10and powerful if you're a member of a
1:07:12minority group
1:07:13racist and powerful that just comes from
1:07:15a false
1:07:16disaggregation or false confusion of the
1:07:19individual and the group level of
1:07:20analysis
1:07:21so it's true that because of both racism
1:07:24and problematic culture
1:07:25the average black guy makes whatever it
1:07:27is 40 43
1:07:29of black guys make more than the average
1:07:31white guy okay
1:07:33so only 43 percent of african americans
1:07:36i'm sure this changes year by year
1:07:37are over the white media in terms of
1:07:39income so that indicates there's a
1:07:40systemic problem we need to fix sure
1:07:43but that also means that almost 45 of
1:07:45black guys are richer and more powerful
1:07:46than the average white guy
1:07:47so if you meet a black guy he's got a
1:07:494.5 out of 10
1:07:51chance of being the more powerful person
1:07:53in an interaction with a white guy
1:07:55just saying black guys can't be racist
1:07:57is meaningless
1:07:58because almost 50 of the black guys can
1:08:00be racist as hell
1:08:01there's no logical argument there
1:08:05so you can say yeah we need to fix the
1:08:07seven percent and also
1:08:08if you're a black guy as i am in the top
1:08:1045
1:08:12don't be an [ __ ] just as we would to
1:08:14a white guy i mean
1:08:15that seems very self-evident to me so
1:08:17i've already kind of covered my second
1:08:19point but the second point is just
1:08:20multi-variant analysis
1:08:22if you look at people you'll find there
1:08:24are about 20 predictor variables that
1:08:25determine where you're going to end up
1:08:26in life
1:08:27and a lot of them we don't even think
1:08:29about like veteran status
1:08:31as you guys know very well being in the
1:08:32military can be an advantage in terms of
1:08:34training you get
1:08:35there can also be a disadvantage if
1:08:36you're a tip of the spear guy you
1:08:38experience ptsd you come back
1:08:40i mean that either one of those is going
1:08:42to dramatically influence your earnings
1:08:44birth order first born children make a
1:08:46lot more than seven
1:08:48sons uh iq as taboo as it is to say this
1:08:52how smart and aggressive you are is one
1:08:53of the biggest predictors of success in
1:08:54life
1:08:55the biggest predictor of success in life
1:08:57is how rich your parents are
1:08:59oh world that's the one
1:09:02shocker no but i mean it's we forget
1:09:05class when we talk about race because
1:09:07there's this very racist
1:09:08assumption on the left that black people
1:09:11are poor
1:09:12no black people are seven percent or
1:09:14whatever we just settled on more likely
1:09:15to be poor that's due to racism as well
1:09:17as some crap culture mistakes we've made
1:09:19but i mean i'm sitting here in a suit
1:09:21coat and you guys are teasing me about
1:09:22it
1:09:22it would be stupid to tell me that i'm
1:09:24poor and i have to understand i'm poor
1:09:27because i'm black
1:09:28i could try to repeat over and over like
1:09:30no i think i'll hit a million this year
1:09:32i just wrote a book
1:09:33and the left-wing commentator could keep
1:09:35saying nope
1:09:36you're oppressed you poor negro i mean
1:09:39you need to be multivariate you need to
1:09:41be aware of all this stuff
1:09:43i tend to think also second level of
1:09:45this it's a little more conflicted in
1:09:46the discipline
1:09:47but i tend to think that when you adjust
1:09:49for
1:09:50characteristics other than race most
1:09:53gaps that are attributed to race go away
1:09:56tom soul who's obviously on the right
1:09:58moving toward the hard right but
1:09:59who's very respected having done this
1:10:01for decades
1:10:02has whole books about this like
1:10:04discrimination and disparities
1:10:06but to take an example that's from a
1:10:07much more mainstream source department
1:10:09of labor all souls great
1:10:11but i mean department of labor looked at
1:10:14what predicts earnings and they found
1:10:16that black men on average earn 82.2
1:10:18percent of what white men do
1:10:20but then the lead economist on the
1:10:22project who is black said well we need
1:10:24to adjust for some things
1:10:25are they adjusted first for age black
1:10:28black americans are a young population
1:10:30the average black guy was i think 23
1:10:31that could easily be wrong average white
1:10:32guy 35
1:10:34so hopefully unless you're a failure
1:10:35between 23 and 35 you're going to
1:10:37dramatically change your income
1:10:40i just hit the 35 mark when i was 23.
1:10:43i don't want to say something like i was
1:10:44a chimp because that might be seen as
1:10:46racially loaded
1:10:47but i was an idiot i still had a state
1:10:49board i was still in touch with my high
1:10:51school girlfriend i mean like
1:10:5425 that's a different thing from 35 or
1:10:5740 as a businessman
1:10:58so you have to adjust for that you have
1:11:00to adjust for region
1:11:02most black people live in the south and
1:11:04in the south
1:11:05in the georgia suburbs for example black
1:11:06people do quite as well as white people
1:11:08but wages overall are lower in the south
1:11:11so you have to adjust for southern
1:11:13residency
1:11:14so you're comparing whites and blacks in
1:11:15the north you have to remove a couple of
1:11:17isolated ghettos you have to adjust for
1:11:18education
1:11:19and once you do all those things i think
1:11:21the gap had closed to 98.1
1:11:24and that sounds about right like there's
1:11:26maybe a two to five percent gap that's
1:11:28just straight racism
1:11:29very problematic we need to get rid of
1:11:31that but it's just silly to look at
1:11:33this happens with men and women too it's
1:11:35silly to compare a housewife with a ceo
1:11:36and say
1:11:37look women make less than men you need
1:11:39to compare a female ceo with a male ceo
1:11:42and there again i guarantee you're gonna
1:11:43get into a gap that's one percent or
1:11:45seven percent or even that favors the
1:11:46woman
1:11:48so be multivariate and look at
1:11:50individuals
1:11:51i like it hey listen we've had you for
1:11:53about an hour and i don't want to keep
1:11:54any longer than that but i would love to
1:11:56have you come back on because
1:11:57you know i mean this is awesome this is
1:11:59what we need to hear is more of these
1:12:00things more of these stories so we can
1:12:02get out of our head and get into the
1:12:04numbers and understand where the gaps
1:12:05really are where the work really is
1:12:07you know if we're gonna deal with that
1:12:09seven percent gap or
1:12:11if we're going to be able to get along
1:12:12more because it turns out we're not as
1:12:14racist as we believe that we are
1:12:16then that that's one of the biggest
1:12:17things that this show is about is
1:12:19is just figuring out where the work
1:12:21actually is and calming the [ __ ] down
1:12:23for a second
1:12:24and uh getting into real land and not uh
1:12:26not imagine land
1:12:28not somebody else's agenda land not
1:12:30advancing a political
1:12:31perspective over the good of the people
1:12:34and i appreciate you you taking the time
1:12:35to do that with us
1:12:37thank you yeah i'd be glad to come back
1:12:38on i appreciate you guys having me
1:12:39enjoyed talking to both of you
1:12:41and i don't want to close with some
1:12:42x-files [ __ ] like keep watching the
1:12:44skies and looking for knowledge
1:12:46but really with the figures we opened
1:12:48with that we all agreed on
1:12:49if you watch a debate where someone says
1:12:510.03 percent of these cases
1:12:54are fakes and someone else says a
1:12:55hundred percent of them are fakes john
1:12:57and they're both on fox news get the
1:13:00computer out and look
1:13:01go to the library if you have any
1:13:03methods trading crack open state or spss
1:13:05test it
1:13:06look for facts and base your position on
1:13:09facts
1:13:10that's all i got that's not really that
1:13:12hard though but it's hard for some
1:13:14people
1:13:16or or just sent just text me and go pete
1:13:19get dr rich and and dr wilfred dr will
1:13:23on the show and have those guys explain
1:13:24this [ __ ] to me because
1:13:26you know that's i want to hear from
1:13:28experts not
1:13:29not pundits i want to hear from people
1:13:31that really know what the hell they're
1:13:32talking about and are willing to be
1:13:33wrong
1:13:34you know i mean if you're not willing to
1:13:37be wrong
1:13:38and have your position evolved i'm sorry
1:13:40you're obsolete already so
1:13:42well and we like to talk about
1:13:43complicated stuff and the things we talk
1:13:46about
1:13:47have layers and we like to talk about it
1:13:49in a very layered way
1:13:50and i think that's what dr reilly helped
1:13:52us out with today
1:13:54well thank you gentlemen

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