Why Zelensky faces protests in Ukraine | Global News Podcast — Transcript

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1. 0:00Welcome to the Global News podcast from
2. 0:01the BBC. I'm Celia Hatton and today
3. 0:03we're joined by Vitaly Shevchenko. He's
4. 0:06BBC monitoring's chief analyst and he's
5. 0:08also an expert on Russia and Ukraine.
6. 0:11Vitaly, from the outside Ukraine looks
7. 0:14to be doing quite well at the moment in
8. 0:16its war against Russia. But today we've
9. 0:19seen protests against the government in
10. 0:22Kyiv. What's going on?
11. 0:24>> Ukraine is doing really well. So well in
12. 0:27fact that President Zelenskyy earlier
13. 0:30this week, he said that the Ukrainian
14. 0:34army was in the best ever position on
15. 0:38the front line.
16. 0:39And yet, three days later,
17. 0:42his defense minister, Mykhailo Fedorov,
18. 0:45seems to be on the way out. On the face
19. 0:48of it, it's a really puzzling decision
20. 0:50because Mykhailo Fedorov is one of the
21. 0:54key architects of Ukraine's drone
22. 0:58revolution. Digitally minded,
23. 1:02forward-thinking,
24. 1:03all about drones, AI, cutting-edge
25. 1:08technology. All these things have
26. 1:11transformed modern warfare. The
27. 1:15Ukrainian army has regained a lot of
28. 1:19territory because of all this. But
29. 1:21Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that the
30. 1:24defense minister, Mykhailo Fedorov, and
31. 1:27the Ukrainian army's commander-in-chief,
32. 1:31Oleksandr Syrskyi, basically cannot
33. 1:35stand each other. They cannot work
34. 1:37together. To give you a quote, Celia,
35. 1:40uh Zelenskyy said that they can't They
36. 1:43wouldn't even sit down together without
37. 1:45the president being in the room. So,
38. 1:49Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that he was
39. 1:51really sorry about having to make a
40. 1:53choice, having to choose between these
41. 1:55two really, really important
42. 1:58uh men, but a choice had to be made and
43. 2:02it looks like he's chosen
44. 2:05Oleksandr Syrskyi, the
45. 2:07commander-in-chief over Mykhailo
46. 2:09Fedorov, the
47. 2:11defense minister. Now, Mykhailo Fedorov
48. 2:13also gave a news conference
49. 2:16earlier today and he was scathingly
50. 2:19critical of
51. 2:22Oleksandr Syrskyi. He said that the
52. 2:24commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian army
53. 2:28was busy causing divisions in Ukraine
54. 2:32rather than finding ways of
55. 2:34defeating Russia.
56. 2:37The
57. 2:38outgoing defense minister also accused
58. 2:41General Syrskyi of stonewalling the
59. 2:44defense ministry's initiatives. And at
60. 2:48the moment of speaking, it looks like um
61. 2:53Mr. Fedorov is not completely out. So,
62. 2:57one of the journalists asked him, "Okay,
63. 2:59is there
64. 3:00a theoretical possibility of you
65. 3:03staying on if if President Zelenskyy
66. 3:05changes his mind?" And Mykhailo Fedorov
67. 3:08said
68. 3:09he couldn't really see a way of
69. 3:13continuing to work with General Syrskyi,
70. 3:16but he said that that he would be still
71. 3:19somehow involved in in in this mission
72. 3:23of defeating Russia.
73. 3:25>> Fascinating. So, we have this political
74. 3:27drama at the very top of the Ukrainian
75. 3:30government unfolding. But the Ukrainian
76. 3:33military is also under a lot of
77. 3:35pressure, isn't it, Vitaly? I mean, just
78. 3:37last week we saw a huge protest, almost
79. 3:40a riot, in Lviv. Can you take us through
80. 3:43what happened there and we'll get into
81. 3:45the problems behind it?
82. 3:46>> This is one of the reasons why
83. 3:50President Zelenskyy isn't really happy
84. 3:52with how things are going within his
85. 3:55his military.
86. 3:57In Lviv, as you mentioned Celia, a group
87. 4:00of people overturned a van used by
88. 4:05military recruiters, physically turned
89. 4:07it upside down, jumped on it, and caused
90. 4:10a riot.
91. 4:12It's shocking, but by no means unusual.
92. 4:16This has been going on for years,
93. 4:19frankly. Ukraine is struggling to
94. 4:22recruit more people to go to the front
95. 4:25line. It's a huge issue, and
96. 4:28Defense Minister said that
97. 4:31fighting should be done by machines
98. 4:34rather than people, especially given how
99. 4:36difficult it is for the Ukrainian
100. 4:38military to recruit new people. So, even
101. 4:42though so many Ukrainians are, as we
102. 4:46have seen, patriotic, they are fighting
103. 4:50for their country's survival,
104. 4:54it at the end of the day, it comes down
105. 4:56to a choice between life and death.
106. 4:58Going to the front line can mean death,
107. 5:01and not everyone,
108. 5:03literally, is prepared to go to the
109. 5:05front line and die for the sake of their
110. 5:08country. So, these people in Lviv, for
111. 5:10example, they just didn't want to do
112. 5:13that. And that is a huge challenge.
113. 5:17Thousands and thousands of
114. 5:19young Ukrainians have died in the front
115. 5:21line. Many more thousands were were
116. 5:25maimed. When I was in Kyiv earlier this
117. 5:27year,
118. 5:28it was striking to see so many young
119. 5:32people in wheelchairs, missing limbs. It
120. 5:36didn't used to be like that.
121. 5:38When you drive across Ukraine, every
122. 5:40single little village, no matter how
123. 5:42small, there's a cemetery,
124. 5:45and there would be fresh graves with
125. 5:48Ukrainian flags fluttering above them.
126. 5:51These are soldiers killed recently. So,
127. 5:56um,
128. 5:56there's a lot of talk about patriotism
129. 5:58and resilience in Ukraine, but the fact
130. 6:01is, the understandable fact is, not
131. 6:04everyone is willing to die.
132. 6:05>> Vitaly, there's another layer to all of
133. 6:08this that I want to ask you about as
134. 6:09well, because pressure is mounting on
135. 6:11Volodymyr Zelenskyy's government because
136. 6:13of a string of corruption scandals.
137. 6:17What's been going on there?
138. 6:19>> Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been trying.
139. 6:22He's been making efforts to, uh, improve
140. 6:26things, by the sound of it. One one a
141. 6:29huge step,
142. 6:31well, that's a popular opinion among
143. 6:32Ukrainians and commentators abroad,
144. 6:35was getting rid of his
145. 6:38powerful,
146. 6:39um, chief of staff, head of the
147. 6:41presidential office, Andriy Yermak. He
148. 6:44was generally seen as the gray cardinal
149. 6:47pulling the strings behind the scenes.
150. 6:50He had to go among a swirl of corruption
151. 6:54claims.
152. 6:55And this whole government reshuffle,
153. 6:58about which we're talking today, can in
154. 7:01a certain way be seen as part of the
155. 7:03same
156. 7:04effort by President Zelenskyy. The
157. 7:07former Prime Minister, Yuliia
158. 7:10Svyrydenko, who was replaced today,
159. 7:13she was generally seen as somebody who
160. 7:17is or was linked to Andriy Yermak. Now,
161. 7:19she's gone as well. So, Volodymyr
162. 7:21Zelenskyy, when he's, uh,
163. 7:23uh, confronted with allegations of of
164. 7:26corruption, he would say, "Well, look,
165. 7:28I'm doing something. I'm I'm getting rid
166. 7:30of various people. I'm reshuffling. I'm
167. 7:32appointing new people. This is my way of
168. 7:35making sure that corruption stops."
169. 7:37However, what we're seeing today
170. 7:41harks back to a huge extent to what we
171. 7:43saw exactly a year ago
172. 7:45when
173. 7:47there were efforts
174. 7:49I would say spearheaded by the
175. 7:51presidential office to curtail the
176. 7:53autonomy of Ukraine's anti-corruption
177. 7:56agencies.
178. 7:58And then just like now protesters turned
179. 8:01out in huge numbers in Kiev and across
180. 8:03Ukraine holding up
181. 8:06sort of simple homemade posters on on on
182. 8:11pieces of cardboard. So this is what
183. 8:13we're seeing in Kiev today. This is what
184. 8:14we saw in Kiev last year. Last year it
185. 8:17worked. The president's office
186. 8:19backtracked and those anti-corruption
187. 8:22agencies preserved their
188. 8:24authority and independence.
189. 8:26Will it work now?
190. 8:28We'll just see, but to me frankly at
191. 8:31this stage it looks unlikely and it
192. 8:33looks like Mykhailo Fedorov is genuinely
193. 8:35on the way out.
194. 8:37>> What about Volodymyr Zelenskyy? How much
195. 8:39political support does he have or is
196. 8:41support amongst the public?
197. 8:43>> On the one hand
198. 8:45he is
199. 8:47by far the most popular politician in
200. 8:51Ukraine. I had a look at the most recent
201. 8:54figures
202. 8:56he is well in the lead with 32% of
203. 8:59Ukrainians saying they would vote for
204. 9:01him again if
205. 9:03a presidential election were to be held
206. 9:05this coming weekend.
207. 9:07Number two is
208. 9:09General that
209. 9:11Volodymyr Zelenskyy um
210. 9:13sort of got rid of
211. 9:15which
212. 9:16Zaluzhnyy.
213. 9:17And number three is
214. 9:22the current chief of staff of the
215. 9:24presidential office uh
216. 9:27Kyrylo Budanov. But on the other hand it
217. 9:30doesn't mean that President Zelenskyy is
218. 9:33universally admired and revered in
219. 9:36Ukraine. There's a huge as as we are
220. 9:39seeing today, there's a huge share of
221. 9:42the public in Ukraine
222. 9:44uh
223. 9:45who people who are prepared to take to
224. 9:47the streets and they're not mincing
225. 9:49their words criticizing some of
226. 9:52President Zelenskyy's decisions. So,
227. 9:54these people, activists, volunteers
228. 9:57who've been helping the army,
229. 9:59uh
230. 10:00young people especially,
231. 10:02they tend to see Volodymyr Zelenskyy as
232. 10:07somebody they have to
233. 10:10put up with,
234. 10:11somehow get along with, work with
235. 10:14because they've got nobody else. And
236. 10:17let's face it, he's been doing a
237. 10:18reasonably good job leading Ukraine
238. 10:21through this extraordinarily
239. 10:24difficult time. So, replacing him right
240. 10:27now,
241. 10:28well, I don't I'm not sure many
242. 10:30Ukrainians would want to do that and the
243. 10:32opinion polls that I've seen suggest
244. 10:34that most Ukrainians, whether they like
245. 10:36Zelenskyy or not, they're saying now is
246. 10:38not the time to hold elections. And of
247. 10:40course, Ukrainian law says you cannot
248. 10:43hold elections at a time of war.
249. 10:45>> Can you tell us more about that? Why
250. 10:48have elections been on hold for so long?
251. 10:50>> Well, this is what Ukrainian law has
252. 10:53said
253. 10:54uh for years. It was passed well before
254. 10:57the Russian invasion. It wasn't
255. 11:00uh that uh Russia invaded and Ukraine
256. 11:03scrapped elections. No, it was always
257. 11:06clear that under Ukrainian laws you
258. 11:08cannot hold elections.
259. 11:10Why? One big reason is that um
260. 11:14Russia will most definitely try and
261. 11:17manipulate these elections and Russia's
262. 11:21been so skilled
263. 11:23uh in in doing that for for for decades
264. 11:26in in parts of the former Soviet Union
265. 11:28and beyond.
266. 11:30Secondly, there are the practicalities
267. 11:32of holding uh
268. 11:34an an election under fire, under bombs,
269. 11:39in in trenches. How do you take uh
270. 11:42ballot boxes to the front line? What
271. 11:45about uh the millions of Ukrainian
272. 11:48refugees scattered around the globe?
273. 11:52Ukraine quite simply does not have a
274. 11:55record of where they are, where where
275. 11:57they live, and how are they going to
276. 12:00vote? That's another practicality that
277. 12:02makes the whole idea of holding an
278. 12:05election right now
279. 12:07really, really um
280. 12:09impractical.
281. 12:11>> Vitaly, when elections do come, can
282. 12:15Volodymyr Zelenskyy's political career
283. 12:17survive beyond this war?
284. 12:20>> I think that's a possibility
285. 12:23given how well he's he's been doing so
286. 12:27far.
287. 12:28He's a bit of a Churchillian figure uh
288. 12:32in in Ukraine and across the world. So,
289. 12:35should he decide to run again,
290. 12:38I think he's he stands a reasonably good
291. 12:40chance. Whether he would want to do that
292. 12:42after all the enormous pressure, I'm not
293. 12:45sure. He's he's complained numerous
294. 12:48occasions uh about not being able to see
295. 12:50his family, about uh
296. 12:54how difficult this job is. This is
297. 12:56probably the most difficult and
298. 12:58dangerous job in the world right now. Uh
299. 13:02and he's been doing it for years and
300. 13:03years and years.
301. 13:05But,
302. 13:06we are so far away from the moment when
303. 13:09Ukraine would be able to take a step
304. 13:11back and start thinking in normal
305. 13:15political terms, parties, elections,
306. 13:19leaders, campaigning. At the moment,
307. 13:22this is about survival. And uh and you
308. 13:26know, change of horses
309. 13:29at a time like this.
310. 13:30The Ukrainians say is so inadvisable.
311. 13:34They don't even think about it. However,
312. 13:36if they think
313. 13:38that their president makes a mistake,
314. 13:42they are prepared to take the streets.
315. 13:44And speaking today about these protests
316. 13:46against the removal of the defense
317. 13:49minister.
318. 13:50Vladimir Zelenskyy said that well, we
319. 13:54are fighting for freedom of speech,
320. 13:56freedom of expression, democracy. So
321. 13:58yeah, they are doing the right thing,
322. 14:01protesting. So
323. 14:04in a way, what's been going on kind of
324. 14:06shows why he's president, what he's
325. 14:10fighting for, even though these people
326. 14:12are really critical against him. Some of
327. 14:14the posters I've seen.
328. 14:15Oh my god, they're unprintable.
329. 14:17And unbroadcastable.
330. 14:19>> Thank you, Vitaly. The BBC's Vitaly
331. 14:21Shevchenko. And if you'd like to hear
332. 14:23more from the global news podcast, click
333. 14:24the link below. Thanks for watching.