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Why Young Women Are The Most Miserable They've Ever Been — Transcript

by Jordan B Peterson · 15,645 words · 2,338 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00So I want to talk to you tonight about
0:02something that's
0:04crazily difficult and I haven't lectured
0:09about this specifically for about 10
0:13years. So that's quite a long time. So I
0:16was trying to recall today, yesterday,
0:21what I need to remember so that I can
0:24make this clear and it's
0:27ridiculously important thing to make
0:29clear. And so why does this have to be
0:33made clear? Well, you you can see that
0:36there's a fracture in the western world.
0:40There's there's a fracture in the world
0:42as a whole, but
0:44it's particularly acute in the western
0:46world. And
0:49that the reason for that is fundamental.
0:52It it it's not political. It's not
0:55economic. It's far deeper than that. Um
1:01you can make a case by definition, I
1:04suppose, that the deepest matters are
1:06religious matters. And I'm saying that
1:08as a matter of definition is that
1:12as you move down the hierarchy of depth
1:15towards the abyss itself, you approach
1:18the domain of the religious. You you
1:20approach the domain of what's ultimately
1:23significant and the culture war that
1:26we're embroiled in in the West that's
1:29tearing us apart and demoralizing us and
1:33encouraging us, tempting us to worship
1:36false idols and to build towers of Babel
1:38and to court the
1:42court what? Court the fate of Sodom and
1:44Gomorrah and to tempt the flood. All of
1:47that's indicative of a problem that has
1:51made itself manifest at the most basic
1:54of levels. And so I want to describe I
1:58want to try to lay out why I think that
2:02problem exists and how it's
2:04conceptualized and then I don't know if
2:06we'll get towards the conceptualize of a
2:10solution. Perhaps in my discussion with
2:12with Pio we'll do that. But I want to at
2:15least lay out the territory. And this is
2:18because the problem's so deep. This is a
2:20very difficult thing to do. And so
2:23especially in 40 minutes and so we'll
2:26see how we how we'll see how we do.
2:29Okay. So the first thing you might ask
2:32yourself, this is relevant to say
2:34Tammy's introduction is why does stories
2:37play such an important role in human
2:41perception and communication?
2:45We find stories intrinsically
2:48compelling. So much so that we regard
2:51them as a form of entertainment. And
2:54that reflects the fact that there's
2:56something about them that's so valuable
2:58and
3:01significant that
3:04participating in a story, listening to a
3:06story, telling a story, reading a story,
3:09watching a movie is intrinsically
3:12meaningful, right? Right. And so that
3:15and you can deride that as mere
3:17entertainment and and think about it as
3:19a side effect of some more fundamental
3:23psychological
3:24phenomena. But that's a mistake. The
3:28reason it's the reason the story is
3:30deeply meaningful is because it actually
3:34reflects in a manner that no other form
3:37can something profound about the nature
3:41of reality itself and about our
3:42relationship to reality. And so and so
3:46why is that? Why is that? See, and
3:49that's that's our failure to understand
3:52that is part of the reason that we're in
3:57this cultural crisis. It's a failure of
4:01conceptualization that stretches all the
4:04way back to the dawn of science and the
4:06enlightenment itself. And the the
4:10problem is
4:13the the scientific world, this is a good
4:16way of thinking about it, the scientific
4:17world is by design
4:22without value, without meaning, right?
4:26You hear, for example, constant claims
4:29on the part of scientific practitioners
4:31that science in its pristine form is
4:34value free, right? and that every fact
4:37is to be considered as valuable in and
4:39of itself and that no fact is to be
4:41arbitrarily privileged over any other
4:44fact. And so the scientific enterprise
4:48begins with the removal of value from
4:51the world. Now the problem with that is
4:54that you live by value, right? You need
4:56a reason to put forth effort. You need a
5:00reason to make sacrifices. You need a
5:02reason to get up in the morning,
5:04especially if things are difficult for
5:07you in your life.
5:09We can't a a world that's denuded of
5:13meaning is a world where no one has any
5:16motivation to do anything. Now, but it's
5:19worse than that in a way because you can
5:22make the positive significance of life
5:25disappear as a reality by criticizing
5:29it. But you don't have the same luck
5:32with the suffering part. And so you can
5:34tell yourself that in the final
5:36analysis, nothing is meaningful. And
5:39that can make the world appear to be a
5:41hopeless and dismal place. But you can't
5:44tell yourself that your own pain and
5:46your own anxiety is equally meaningless.
5:48And or you can try to tell yourself
5:50that, but it's going to have zero effect
5:53on the existential reality of your pain
5:55and suffering. And so
5:58if you remove value from the world, the
6:02paradoxical consequence is all that you
6:04leave behind in the world is suffering
6:07and confusion. And and that's not a good
6:10thing, especially if you draw the
6:12conclusion that suffering and confusion
6:15is the ultimate reality of the world.
6:18And so obviously I mean that's that's
6:21the conclusion that someone insanely
6:23depressed and anxious draws or even
6:26suicidal. And it's definitely the case
6:28that people who tilt towards a world
6:31view that denudes the world of intrinsic
6:35significance do tend to fall under the
6:38sway of serious depression and anxiety.
6:41And well, and and that's not all because
6:44if you're depressed and you're anxious
6:45and you're suffering in consequence of
6:47that, it's very easy to become bitter.
6:49And if you become bitter, it's easy to
6:51become vengeful. And if you become
6:53vengeful, well, the sky's is the limit
6:56in terms of the terrible places you
6:57might go. And so there are genuine
7:00existential consequences to denuting the
7:04world of significance of treating it as
7:07if it's as if the notion of significance
7:10or value is somehow a delusional overlay
7:13on a more fundamental and primal
7:16material reality. And that is what we
7:18think right. I mean, even if you're a
7:22modern religious person, the
7:24presuppositions of reductionist
7:27materialist, the materialism, the idea
7:29that the world's made out of matter and
7:32dead matter, it's so much part of you
7:34that it's an it's an self-evident axiom
7:38of the way you conduct yourself in the
7:40world. And maybe there's a religious
7:42overlay on that because you're still a
7:44believer, but you're a
7:47post-enlightenment scientific
7:48rationalist with a thin veneer of
7:51religious belief on the top of that. And
7:53that's that's just not going to do the
7:56trick, folks. And you can tell that
7:58because we're very susceptible to
8:00possession by a variety of forms of
8:03pathological ideologies. And we're very
8:06weak in the face of external pressure in
8:10relationship to our belief systems. And
8:12we tend towards a dismal nihilism or a
8:15immature hedenism. And none of that's
8:18going to do the trick. Like there's
8:20serious challenges as challenges facing
8:22us as individuals and as a society. And
8:25that kind of shallowess in relationship
8:28to value is uh counterproductive barely
8:32begins to describe it. It makes us weak
8:36and
8:38weak people are prone to the worst of
8:40temptations. And so this isn't good. and
8:43the other the a more fund but you might
8:46say oh it doesn't matter because we've
8:49pursued the truth and the truth is as
8:52Nichza pointed out in the mid 1800s God
8:55is dead and the scientific revolution
8:58killed our religious presuppositions and
9:00the world truly is a dead material place
9:03and we just have to make the best of
9:05that but you know the the
9:10before we jump to that earthshatter
9:12shattering conclusion. See Nze when he
9:15said that he knew what the consequence
9:17of that would be. He said that we would
9:19become radically susceptible to uh
9:22catastrophic nihilism and to invasion of
9:25our psychological space by a variety of
9:28utopian ideologies and that the world
9:31would be a wash in blood as a
9:34consequence of the demise of the
9:36structures of value that had oriented us
9:39previously. And so
9:44now the the problem with the proposition
9:48that
9:49the world genuinely is a place of dead
9:52matter with a thin overlay of arbitrary
9:55value on top of it. The problem with
9:57that viewpoint apart from the
9:59existential problems that I just
10:01described is it's not true. Like it's
10:04actually it's a false view of the
10:06structure of reality. And part of what
10:08we're actually wrestling with in our
10:10culture, and you all know that to some
10:12degree, because you wouldn't be at this
10:13lecture if you didn't have some sense of
10:15this, is that
10:17the propositions that have
10:21guided us through the technological
10:23revolutions of science in the last four
10:25centuries, they're they're not right.
10:28It's not the case that the world is
10:30intrinsically a place of dead matter and
10:33that's all and that we arbitrarily
10:36overlay a system of belief or value on
10:38top of that. And we know that's not true
10:42partly in consequence of scientific
10:45endeavor itself because for example
10:48we've been working at a biological level
10:51at unpacking the mysteries of
10:53perception.
10:54The perception upon which your idea that
10:57the world is an object depends. And what
10:59we found is that perception itself
11:03doesn't operate in the manner you would
11:05predict if the world was only a place of
11:08dead matter and objects. And so to see
11:12an object you have to perceive it
11:14obviously. And if the perception itself
11:18relies on processes that aren't merely
11:22materialist, let's say, then the whole
11:25notion that the world is fundamentally a
11:28meaningless object falls apart. And this
11:31is a foregone conclusion now. Like we we
11:34we know that that's not how perception
11:37works. So for example, when you're
11:41looking at something, when you're seeing
11:43something,
11:48every glance you make is dependent on an
11:53action. So there's no
11:57perception at all independent of action
12:00because you have to move your eyes in
12:02order to see. And some of that's
12:04unconscious because your eyes vibrate,
12:05but some of it's conscious because
12:06you're directing your eyes. And what you
12:09direct your eyes toward is indicative of
12:12what you're paying attention to. And
12:15what you're paying attention to is
12:16indicative of your value structure. Now,
12:19this isn't some idle hypothesis. There
12:22are malevolent forces at work in the
12:25world that are making a fortune off
12:29their analysis of your eye movements
12:33because that's what your phones do.
12:35because that gives those machines a
12:38window into your structure of values and
12:40a means of
12:44controlling your intention and your
12:47actions. And so there isn't anything
12:51more valuable than your attention. And
12:53the sophisticated machines that you hold
12:55in your hands, your cell phones are
12:57watching how you move your eyes so they
13:00can figure out what's important to you,
13:02so that they can capture your attention.
13:04because of its great value. And so the
13:07reason I'm telling you this is to I
13:08don't want to move this outside of the
13:10domain of mere abstraction. Like
13:15we understand that perception is
13:17dependent upon attention and that you
13:20pay this is the crucial thing. You pay
13:23attention
13:25to what you value
13:27right now. If your perception of the
13:30world is dependent on attention
13:33and you pay attention to what you value,
13:35then what you perceive
13:38is dependent on what you value. And
13:40that's not the scientific proposition.
13:43The scientific proposition is the world
13:45lays itself out as a set of objects and
13:49you lay a structure of value on top of
13:51them and the object perception is
13:54primary. And that's wrong.
13:57the valuing is primary.
14:01Now, we don't exactly know what to make
14:03of that and that's partly what I want to
14:05explore with you tonight. Now, it turns
14:08out that
14:10the way you describe the world of value
14:13is very different than the way you
14:15describe the world of objects. Now, we
14:18have a technology for describing the
14:20world of objects and that's the
14:21scientific method, the scientific
14:23description, our scientific theories.
14:25And that does enable us to gain some
14:28purchase on the world, right? We're very
14:30technologically powerful in consequence
14:32of this mastery. But the world of value
14:36is described in a different way. And it
14:39appears that that mode of description is
14:42not only no less real,
14:45it's pro it's it has to exist before you
14:49can apprehend the world of objects at
14:51all. And the method that we use to
14:56describe the world of value
14:59is the story.
15:02That's what a story does. Okay. So,
15:04let's think about this for a minute. And
15:06so, you go to a movie and
15:11we already described the fact that
15:12that's a bit of a mystery. It's like
15:14what what the hell are you lining up,
15:17using up your time, paying money to go
15:19see a movie? And you might say, well, I
15:21enjoy it. And then I might say, "You
15:23enjoy a horror movie, do you?" Right? A
15:26horror movie disgusts and frightens you.
15:28And that's the antithesis of enjoyment.
15:31And so, what the hell are you doing
15:32there? Why would you enjoy that? Now,
15:34there is in fact a reason, but it's not
15:36obvious, right? It's not it's not the
15:38simple pursuit of pleasure that leads
15:40you to chase the narrative. Okay? It's
15:43something
15:44it's the narrative outlines a structure
15:48value. Okay? So, how do you understand
15:50that? You go see a movie. You go see
15:55um
15:58James Bond movie, an action adventure
16:01movie. That'll be that'll be fine. And
16:03you see the characters. You have the
16:05hero, the main protagonist. That's James
16:08Bond in his various incarnations. And
16:10you have the villain because there's
16:11always a villain or a codery of
16:13villains. So there's always good versus
16:15evil in movies like that. And that's the
16:17drama of adventure. And then you infer
16:22the value structure of the protagonist
16:24and the villain by watching what they
16:27attend to and how they act. All right?
16:30And so now and you do this in a very
16:32deeply embodied and unconscious way the
16:36same way that you understand other
16:38people. So for example, when you are
16:40talking to another person, you you watch
16:43their eyes,
16:45right? And the reason you watch their
16:47eyes is because you want to see where
16:49they direct their attention. And you
16:51want to see where they direct their
16:52attention so that you know what's
16:55important to them. And you want to know
16:57what's important to them so you can
16:58mimic that with your own body. That's
17:02what you do when you understand someone
17:04else's aims. You can understand what
17:07they regard as positive. So what turns
17:10them on, so to speak, what motivates
17:12them to move forward. And that's
17:14anything that will move them towards
17:16their aim. And you understand what is
17:19negative to them. And that's anything
17:20that interferes with their aim. That
17:22stops them. It makes them anxious. It
17:24causes them pain. And so as soon as you
17:26can infer someone's aim, you can mimic
17:30their emotions
17:32using your own body as a
17:35representational platform. And that's
17:37how you understand people. And so if
17:39you're getting to know someone at, you
17:41know, on a date and you're having a
17:43conversation, you pay attention to what
17:46the other person is paying attention to
17:48verbally and non-verbally. And then if
17:51you pay really careful attention, you
17:53can get yourself in sync and you can be
17:55on the same wavelength. And what that
17:57means is your aims unite and then your
18:00emotions are the same and then you
18:02understand each other. And then you
18:03might say, well, is it intrinsically
18:07rewarding merely to mimic someone else?
18:11And the answer to that is no. That's not
18:13the whole story. You see, because
18:16you the manner in which you direct your
18:19attention
18:21is dependent on your aim. And it takes
18:25effort and resources to pursue an aim.
18:27And so one of the things you really want
18:29to figure out in the world is
18:31what are the costs and consequences of
18:34different aims and what should your aim
18:37be and not be. Okay, that's what stories
18:40tell you. And so you go watch James Bond
18:42and you see that he serves king and
18:44country that he's a brave sort of
18:46character and then he arranges his
18:48attention in relationship to those aims
18:51and then you imitate that while you're
18:53watching him and then you get a sense of
18:55how that works out how that frame of
18:57value functions and you do it without
19:01cost because if James Bond gets killed
19:04you don't die right and so this is the
19:07advantage of narrative characterization
19:10is you can toy and play with different
19:14viewpoints of value and you can explore
19:17their significance for better or worse.
19:19And you can do that while experiencing
19:21all the relevant emotions and all the
19:24relevant perceptions. But if it goes
19:26terribly wrong, it upsets you in the
19:30moment in the movie and that's all and
19:32you can walk away. And so when you're
19:36being told a story, when you're
19:38participating in a story, when you're
19:39watching a drama, when you're listening
19:42to someone else tell their story, you're
19:44gaining insight into the functional
19:46consequences of a way of organizing the
19:49world, a way of prioritizing the world.
19:52And you can use that to orient yourself
19:55in the world in a more effective way.
19:58And so you know that when you take your
20:00children to movies, you sort of hope
20:01that they'll imitate the hero and not
20:03the villain. And you see the villain and
20:06the villain has villainous aims. He's
20:08aiming down. He wants mayhem and pain.
20:10He wants other people to suffer. He
20:12doesn't cooperate with anyone. He's
20:13narcissistic to the core. He's resentful
20:16and bitter. And that plays out on the
20:18screen. And you see that spiraling
20:20downward and you think maybe it would be
20:21better not to be him. And then you see
20:24on the other hand you see the hero and
20:26the hero is what's the hero doing
20:28exactly? Well, he's certainly not doing
20:30what the villain is doing at least that.
20:32And in the James Bond example, well,
20:34he's serving king and country in this
20:37brave manner. And so there's an
20:39implication there. It's a low-level
20:42religious implication. You might say
20:44that a hero is someone who serves
20:47something that's outside his narrow
20:49self. And you could argue perhaps that
20:51king and country isn't the highest of
20:54all possible aims, but you might say,
20:56"Well, it's certainly better than the
20:58villain, and at least it's not
21:00narcissistic and self-centered." And
21:02then you might say, "Well, what would be
21:05the aim of the greatest conceivable
21:07hero, and that would be the king of all
21:10potential kings?" And as soon as you
21:13start to ask and inquire into that
21:15question, then you're definitely in the
21:17religious domain, right? So, because
21:19you're starting to ask yourself
21:20something like
21:23>> imagine your favorite lecture, dial that
21:26up on max, put that on steroids, and
21:28then add some cinematic elements to it.
21:31That's the best way I could describe a
21:32Peterson Academy lecture.
21:36>> I went to college because I had to. I go
21:38to Peterson Academy because I want to.
21:40I'm still paying off college from 10
21:41years ago, and I'm also still
21:43questioning the value that I got out of
21:45college. In traditional universities, a
21:47lot of times it's just pretty dry. They
21:49don't bring the same energy as the
21:51professors at Peterson Academy.
21:53>> It is a completely different experience
21:54to learn from somebody who actually
21:56wants to teach you.
21:57>> If you've been on the fence about this,
22:00this is the time.
22:01>> That thing that's calling to you, you
22:02won't have an answer for it unless you
22:03enroll and see for yourself. You have
22:05the opportunity to investigate that
22:07calling.
22:10>> Yeah. So, you understand that, right?
22:11You understand that. You see how that
22:13you see how that works. And so that also
22:15gives us some insight right away into
22:17the Christian religious domain, for
22:19example, because you can imagine a movie
22:22about a king. And then you can imagine
22:2410 movies about 10 kings. And then you
22:26could imagine that there's something
22:28that's common to all of those kings in
22:31so far as they're good kings. And then
22:33you could make a movie about just the
22:35greatest of kings and that would start
22:38to have like an overwhelming religious
22:40significance, right? because you'd be
22:42portraying something like the essence of
22:44kingship itself, right? Or the essence
22:47of heroism itself. And religious stories
22:51virtually by definition spiral around
22:53that end point and try to specify it.
22:55How should you conduct yourself in the
22:57world? Now you see that's the same
23:00question. This is also what you're
23:02figuring out when you're watching a
23:03movie even though you don't know it.
23:05You're figuring out what does this
23:06person worship? Now we think what do we
23:09think worship is? Well, because we're
23:12shallow materialists, we haven't got a
23:14good grip on that. We think it means, I
23:18don't know, it means singing a hymn in a
23:19church. And it does mean that to some
23:22degree. And it it means the rituals that
23:25would go along with a religious
23:26practice. It might mean getting on your
23:29knees when you pray, for example. But
23:31you see, what you worship
23:34is what you celebrate. And what you
23:36worship and celebrate is what you hold
23:38in the highest degree. And so you see,
23:41so to worship is to subjugate yourself
23:44to your aim. I I mean this as a
23:47definition. This is a this is what you
23:49want to understand is that every time
23:52you move your eyes, even though you
23:53don't know it, you're worshiping
23:54something. And what you're worshiping is
23:57the goal of your vision, even if you
23:59don't know what your vision is. So
24:01here's an example. Imagine you're on a
24:02date and uh you could worship the one
24:06night stand, in which case your eyes are
24:09going to be doing something completely
24:10different than what they're going to be
24:12doing if you're evaluating your date
24:15partner as a potential wife or husband,
24:18right? You can you you you obviously you
24:21know that and if you're both playing one
24:23night stand, well then maybe there's not
24:26going to be any disagreement about what
24:27the eyes should be doing. But if one of
24:29you is playing one night stand and the
24:31other is playing I wish I was married
24:33then that's not that's not going to be a
24:35date that goes very well and all the
24:37body language will indicate that. And
24:40then you might say, well, you can see
24:41that there's different
24:43objects of worship in those two
24:45approaches because one worships
24:47short-term hedonistic sexual
24:49gratification at all cost absent any
24:53relationship or responsibility and the
24:55other worships marriage as the
24:58foundation of what the proper
25:00relationship between men and women and
25:02the foundation of society. Those are
25:04very very very different things. And
25:07though those different see this is the
25:10kicker those different aims structure
25:12your perceptions your aims structure
25:15your perceptions and so given that you
25:19see that's why the scientific worldview
25:22in its fundamental
25:25propositions is in incomplete because
25:27that's not an axiom of the scientific
25:30world. The scientific world assumes the
25:33facts are dead. They're all equal. You
25:35look at them neutrally as a scientist
25:39and the science of perception indicates
25:41that you cannot look at anything
25:43neutrally. It's not possible. You have
25:46to inhabit a value frame because your
25:49values determine your pattern of
25:51attention and your pattern of action and
25:53your perceptions are attention and
25:56action predicated. There's no escape
25:59from the problem of value. Now, we don't
26:01know. We don't know what to do with this
26:03exactly because I'm not a postmodernist.
26:05I don't think I'm not going to make a
26:06claim that there's no such thing as
26:08scientific fact, right? And that that
26:11that somehow everything's up for grabs
26:13because the world of value is real.
26:16That's a that's a mistake and it's
26:18erroneous. But by the same token,
26:22the fruits of the scientific endeavor
26:24will be dependent on the aim of the
26:26scientist. And we already know that
26:28because you guys, you go to movies and
26:30you see the evil scientist. It's like,
26:32how many bloody evil scientists do you
26:34have to see before you clue in? It's
26:36like evil scientists produce evil
26:40science. And so, how can that be if the
26:44scientific venture itself is valuefree?
26:47Because an evil scientist could produce
26:49good science because what the hell
26:51difference does it make? And everyone
26:53knows that's not the case. And you can
26:56certainly see that
26:58you can certainly see a terrible danger
27:00in the scientific enterprise because we
27:02all know that if the technological power
27:06our scientific viewpoint provides to us
27:09is misused then then heaven help us. You
27:13know, I read a book once that was
27:14written by a KGB, exKGB officer, and he
27:18talked about scientists in the Soviet
27:21Union, and their goal was to produce a
27:23hybrid between Ebola, which is
27:29a hybrid between Ebola and smallpox. And
27:32so, that's a perfectly valid scientific
27:34question, just like gain of function
27:36research in Wuhan, you might say. And so
27:39seriously
27:42and we saw we saw what happened as a
27:44consequence of that particular value
27:46predicated endeavor right and we shut
27:48down the bloody world for two years
27:50because of that and turned the entire
27:52west into a totalitarian state right so
27:55watch out for the aims of your
27:57scientists and so then you might think
27:59well what should those aims be right
28:01well that's the problem of narrative
28:04what should your aim be okay So
28:11I want to lay out for you too. So Tammy
28:14told the story of Snow White for a
28:15particular reason and I want to lay out
28:17for you partly how narrative in its most
28:20fundamental way characterizes the world
28:23of value. So let's say you know I
28:26remember once when I was a kid I went to
28:28a drive-in and I saw a Bert Reynolds
28:30movie and I don't remember what it was.
28:32Smokeoky and the Bandit, I think. And
28:33Bert Reynolds was zipping around in some
28:35fast car and being a cool dude. And um
28:39when all the teenagers drove out of the
28:42parking lot at the end of the drive-in,
28:44they were all spinning their tires and
28:45like racing down the highway. And it's
28:46like they're imitating they were
28:48imitating
28:50Bert Reynolds and you know, fair enough.
28:52and and
28:55what you see what that's how we
29:00develop our patterns of value. We
29:02develop our patterns of value through
29:03imitation. That's a good way of thinking
29:05about it. So you imitate your father for
29:07example. You you imitate your father.
29:10You imitate even more particularly the
29:12spirit of your father. So here's a way
29:14of thinking about it. So, imagine that
29:15you're a little boy and you're inviting
29:18a little girl to play house and you say
29:21to her, "Uh, do you want to play house?"
29:23And she says yes, which is a good start
29:24to the game cuz she has to say yes or
29:27it's not a game in case you didn't
29:29notice when you were three. And
29:34and so then you might say, well, the boy
29:36who now is going to play the father is
29:38imitating the father, right? But
29:40imitation, like if I was imitating you,
29:42I' i'd sit with my legs crossed like
29:44this, right? That's a direct imitation.
29:46I'm using my body to precisely duplicate
29:49what your body is doing. But you see, if
29:51you watch little kids play,
29:54that's not what they do. They do
29:55something way more sophisticated. So, a
29:57three-year-old or a four-year-old has
29:59watched his father operate as father. So
30:03with the goals names of a father over
30:05many different episodes and he's watched
30:09fathers and adult men in movies and he's
30:13seen fathers in books and what he does
30:15is he pulls out a abstraction of what
30:18constitutes the father and that' be the
30:21spirit of the father. That's a good way
30:23of thinking about it. He pulls out an
30:24abstraction of what the father is from
30:26all of those examples and then he plays
30:29that in the pretend game. And so he's
30:32possessed by the spirit of the father.
30:35Okay. So one way that the world of value
30:39that characterizes human society is
30:42transmitted from generation to
30:43generation is through imitation of the
30:46spirit of the father. Okay. Now, if
30:49you're thinking at all, if you're paying
30:50attention at all, you can see that
30:51there's a very, very thin line between
30:54that and well, you might say both Jewish
30:57and Christian forms of worship because
31:00what you're enjoined to do as a Jew or
31:02Christian, there's other religions that
31:04are oriented in the same towards the
31:08same
31:11paternal end, is that you're called upon
31:13to imitate the benevol the spirit of the
31:16benevolent father. Now, that's not all.
31:18Like in Catholicism, for example, you
31:20have Mary who's an example of the spirit
31:22of the benevolent feminine, and that's a
31:24different thing. But part of what the
31:27religious process is doing in its
31:30complex narrative is is abstracting out
31:33the essential
31:35spirit of celebration and worship and
31:39utilizing character and personality to
31:42produce a pattern that can be that can
31:45be imitated. Right now you see the girl
31:48who's playing with the boy, he she knows
31:50this because if the boy who's playing
31:52with house with her imitates the spirit
31:55of the benevolent father properly, then
31:59she'll enjoy the game and then she'll
32:01want to play another game with him and
32:03then they'll become friends. And so the
32:05test for whether or not his imitation of
32:10the spirit of the benevolent father is
32:12valid is whether the girl will continue
32:15the game. And if you can't see the
32:17relationship between that and your
32:18marriage, you're just not trying. Right?
32:21So because that's exactly that's exactly
32:25what you're both aiming for in your
32:28marriage, whether you know it or not.
32:29Your your wife is trying to encourage
32:32within you. your embodiment of the
32:36spirit of the benevolent masculine. Yes.
32:39And you are attempting to encourage
32:43the same development in her with regards
32:46to the feminine. And those are two
32:48cardinal ways of characterizing the
32:51world of value. That's a good way of
32:53thinking about it. And so
32:57so I I'll give you an example of that.
32:59So I already made illusion to the fact
33:01that Christ in the Christian tradition
33:04is the king of kings. And so you could
33:06think about him as the central pattern
33:09of sovereignty to which all sovereigns m
33:13who are genuine have to bow, right? And
33:15you know you don't want a king or a
33:18president who believes that he's on top
33:21of everything, right? That's a tyrant.
33:24That's a tyrant. If your leader, despite
33:27his position of authority, is beholden
33:30to a principle that's transcendent that
33:33that is beyond him and upward aiming,
33:36then he's someone who's serving the he's
33:40mimicking the benevolent spirit of the
33:42father instead of allowing himself to
33:45become possessed by power. And that
33:47means that he's the sort of sovereign
33:49that you could trust. Just like if
33:50you're doing that in your household,
33:52then you're not a tyrant as a husband or
33:54a father. Okay? Okay. And that's all
33:57nested inside narrative and developed in
34:01character. And so we we use character
34:05and story to portray the world of value.
34:10And that's what teaches us how to direct
34:11our attention and to organize our
34:13actions right now. And if you understand
34:15that, you can also see how that unites
34:17us socially. Because if your vision of
34:21what constitutes the benevolent
34:24masculine is the same as mine, then we
34:28can understand each other and we can
34:29work together. And not only can we work
34:31together, we can we can compete
34:34peacefully because we could assume
34:37something like we're playing the same
34:39game because we have the same aim and we
34:42can let the better man win and that
34:45would be good for both of us because
34:46that way we'd learn a bit more about who
34:48the better man is and maybe we could
34:50imitate that and both improve. And so
34:53the that that
35:00union of aim upward aim brings peace
35:03even to competition, productive peace
35:05even to competition. That's a very
35:07useful thing to know with regards to
35:10masculinity because men tend to be very
35:12competitive and you could make a case
35:13that competition per se is a
35:16manifestation of the oppressive
35:18patriarchy. So that's the negative
35:20masculine. And that's true if the
35:23competition is for power. But it's not
35:26true if the competition is the
35:28maximization of the proper aim. And then
35:30you have to ask yourself, well, what's
35:32the proper aim? And we've touched on
35:34that a little bit. And it's something
35:35like whatever is represented by
35:39concepts like the king of kings or the
35:43spirit of the benevolent father. And so
35:45that's how God is characterized. for
35:46example, often in the Old Testament,
35:49he's the he's the God of Abraham and
35:51Isaac, right? He's the spirit of
35:54benevolent masculinity as it makes
35:56itself manifest across the generations
35:59in the world. And it's up to the
36:01individual man like Abraham or Jacob,
36:04any of the biblical heroes to ally
36:06themselves with that spirit to invite it
36:10through prayer and worship to possess
36:12them to sacrifice everything that isn't
36:17appropriate along the way and then to
36:19develop upward, right? And that the
36:22narrative that's laid out in the
36:23biblical corpus describes that spiraling
36:27upward process. And it culminates in the
36:30idea that the al ultimate upward aim
36:35that's the spirit of the king of kings
36:37is something like the voluntary spirit
36:40of self-sacrifice that mature families
36:44and communities are founded upon. And so
36:47that would mean that as a mature man
36:49whose worth is salt, so to speak, it's
36:52not all about you and your pleasure in
36:54the most narrow of senses, but that
36:56you're in service to the future and to
36:59your wife and to your children and to
37:00the community and the city and the state
37:02and Right. Right. Right. And the the
37:06thing that's so wonderful and remarkable
37:08about that is that imagine that really
37:11what you want is to make your dreams
37:12come true. And you might say, "Well, if
37:14I want to make my dreams come true, I
37:17will pursue what's in my self-interest."
37:19But you'll find that if you do that, you
37:21become a narcissistic pretender. And
37:24people do everything they can to
37:26distance themselves from you.
37:29And if you take the opposite tack and
37:31you say, "I not don't I'm not going to
37:33live for my narrow self. I'm going to
37:35find myself in service to the future, my
37:39wife, my children, my community, my
37:41state, my nation, under God, let's say,
37:44then everything that you need and want
37:47will come to you, right? And you see,
37:49your nation knows this. That's a very
37:51strange thing about the United States
37:53because you guys have got this more
37:54right than any other people in the world
37:56and maybe more than any other people in
37:59the world ever have, which is that if
38:01you can pursue
38:03the spirit of
38:06benevolent self-sacrifice without envy,
38:09then you can produce a land of
38:12abundance. And that's exactly right. And
38:14that that ability, the ability to do
38:17that should be the highest of aims.
38:20Okay. So, right. Okay.
38:25And you can you can see
38:29you can see how that's dramatized in
38:31narrative obviously because the
38:33self-sacrificing hero is the mainstay of
38:36an action adventure movie or a romantic
38:38adventure. I mean, was it the last James
38:40Bond where he ends up sacrificing
38:43himself to the woman he loves and
38:45society at large on an island? Right.
38:48Yeah. Well, that that motif of voluntary
38:50self-sacrifice, well, that's obviously
38:53deeply Christian.
38:55Obviously, although there are radical
38:58precursors to the idea, for example, in
39:01the Jewish scriptures and throughout the
39:02Old Testament, the idea that sacrifice
39:05pleases God and that there's an ultimate
39:08form of sacrifice that's ultimately
39:09pleasing. And that's that's all. Then
39:12you might say, well, is that true? And
39:14the answer to that is something like,
39:16well, it's not true from the narrow
39:18materialist reductionist perspective.
39:20But that's because that is forbidden
39:23from the beginning when you're playing
39:25that game. But it is true if you're
39:27trying to figure out, for example, how
39:29you bring peace to your household and
39:31meaning to your life and productive
39:33abundance to your society. And all those
39:35things seem relevant. And so serving
39:38that kind of relevance also seems to be
39:40something like serving the truth or
39:42maybe the essence of serving the truth.
39:45And that's not the same viewpoint
39:49that underlies the scientific enterprise
39:52as such. That what that shows is not
39:54that the scientific enterprise is
39:56correct and the religious enterprise or
39:58the narrative enterprise wrong, but that
40:00the scientific enterprise is radically
40:03incomplete in its current form and prone
40:06to spiral badly sideways if it isn't
40:09encapsulated within the proper structure
40:11of value. And I think we're at a point
40:14where we know that. Okay, so that's
40:19that's a quick outline
40:22of two different ways of looking at the
40:24world, right?
40:27The object world and the world of value.
40:30And the way things seem to be
40:32constituted is that the world of value
40:34is the foundation, proper foundation for
40:37the world of objects, not the other way
40:40around. is that unless you're
40:43an ethically self-sacrificing scientist,
40:47the truths you discover will serve
40:51malevolent purposes rather than
40:55producing abundance and peace, right?
40:57And so what that means is that the aim
40:59of the scientist is the paramount issue
41:02with regards even to the productivity of
41:04science itself. Yeah. And that seems to
41:06be I just cannot see for a moment how
41:09that can be disputed. And even if it is
41:12disputed, we bloody well know it because
41:13you can see the motif of science gone
41:17wrong permeate our movies. The
41:19Terminator series is a good example of
41:21that. For example, and which we're
41:23likely to live out in our lifetime
41:26because we're foolish enough not to pay
41:27attention to our own warnings, you might
41:30say. Um, you know, the Chinese
41:32surveillance system is called Skynet.
41:35It's literally called Skynet. 700
41:38million closed circuit TV cameras. Full
41:41gate analysis. Those systems can assess
41:43where you are and who you are, even if
41:45you mask yourself. And when the
41:47engineers were called on that, the
41:49Chinese engineers were called on that.
41:52Why' you name it Skynet? Didn't you see
41:54the Terminator series? They said,
41:56because they're engineers and nerds.
41:57They said, "Of course we saw the
41:59Terminator series. We're building the
42:01good Skynet." which is of course exactly
42:03what the engineers in the Terminator
42:05movies thought, right? And so if your
42:08good is defined by the tenants of the
42:10Chinese Communist Party, you're not
42:12going to build the good Skynet.
42:22Okay. So, um, I wanted to talk to you a
42:25little bit about the I talked to you a
42:28little bit about the positive masculine
42:29and the way it's portrayed in in
42:32narrative and in movies. And I wanted to
42:34tell you a bit about the negative
42:36masculine and the positive and negative
42:37feminine. And Tammy touched on that a
42:39little bit with her discussion of Snow
42:41White, but there's only so much you can
42:43do in 40 minutes. And so, I think what
42:45I'll do, I'll do that with the
42:47discussion with Jonathan because he's
42:49very good at that sort of thing. Um
42:51because
42:52the characters can go right and go wrong
42:55and male characters can go right and go
42:58wrong and female characters can go right
43:00and wrong and there's a pattern to that
43:02and our deep stories like Snow White
43:04which is a cultural phenomena and has to
43:06be hit the target squarely to work even
43:10as a commercial product are our cultural
43:15our pop cultural
43:18narratives are reflective of the
43:21disorder of our ethical systems. That's
43:23a good way of thinking about it. So,
43:24I'll talk with Jonathan about that and
43:26we'll walk through that and see if we
43:28can get that straight. For now, I think
43:30I'll just reiterate so hopefully we'll
43:32make this clear. So, that
43:36there's two problems you have to solve
43:38in the world is another way of thinking
43:39about it. You have to know what the
43:41world's made of, right? But that's not
43:43enough. You have to know how to orient
43:45yourself in the world. You have to know
43:47how to navigate. And to navigate, you
43:49have to prioritize. You have to
43:51establish a destination, an aim. That's
43:54the promised land, you might say,
43:55assuming you're assuming you're aiming
43:58up or the shining city on the hill or
44:01the heavenly Jerusalem. Those are all
44:03abstractions of the idea of the proper
44:05aim. And if your aim's appropriate, the
44:09world shows itself as a pathway forward.
44:12And the person who walks that pathway to
44:15the proper aim, that's the hero. And the
44:18hero is characterized in drama and
44:20narrative, right? As an example to
44:23imitate, right? And you need to know
44:25that because you have to walk through
44:26the world. If you were just a passive
44:29recipient of sense data,
44:33un valuefree sense data, which is sort
44:36of the ideal scientist from the
44:38enlightenment perspective, well then if
44:41you didn't have to navigate and you were
44:42just a passive recipient, then value
44:45wouldn't be necessary. But because
44:47you're a limited
44:49perceiver and everything has a cost and
44:51you can only do so many things, you have
44:54to prioritize. You have to do one thing
44:56rather than the other. And you have to
44:58organize all the things you're going to
45:00do towards some end. And the
45:03organization towards that end
45:07determines the manner in which the world
45:09makes itself manifest to you. That's a
45:11terrifying thing to understand too. You
45:13know, one of the things you can ask
45:14yourself very seriously is that if the
45:17sacrifices you're making aren't being
45:20met by appreciation from yourself,
45:24others, or God, so to speak, it's very
45:27possible that there's something
45:28pathologically wrong with your aim,
45:31right? And that's very very that's a
45:33terrible thing to contemplate, you know,
45:35especially when your failures appear to
45:37be radically arbitrary. But
45:43but it's a hopeful realization as well
45:45because if the reason that the world's
45:47in disorder around you is because your
45:48aim is pathological,
45:50then you have some hope of fixing it. If
45:53the world itself is just turned against
45:55you, well, you know, too bad for you.
45:57You're there's nothing left for you. But
45:59if you could get on your knees and
46:01figure out why the hell you're wrong and
46:03stupid,
46:05that's a big book that then
46:10you know, then you'd have the
46:11possibility of rectifying it, moving
46:13moving forward effectively. And since
46:16there's no limit to your ignorance, if
46:18you admit to that ignorance, there's no
46:19limit to what you could learn. And if
46:22you take the humble attitude that
46:24there's no limit to what you can learn
46:26in consequence of facing your error,
46:28then you'll walk the self-correcting
46:31pathway up to the shining city on the
46:34hill. That's exactly right. Yeah. So,
46:40and those are the ideas. Those ideas are
46:42coded in our deep narratives. And you
46:45see, we don't understand that. And the
46:47scientific mind dispenses with all that
46:50and proclaims that the world's a
46:52valuefree place and that narrative is
46:54nothing but delusion and superstition.
46:55And that's wrong enough to make all of
46:58us sick, disunited, and unhappy. Right.
47:06Okay. Well, that certain seemed to make
47:07a certain amount of sense, I hope. and
47:10um even though it's very very
47:11complicated and I think what I'll do now
47:13is I'll invite Jonathan to come out and
47:15and offer what he has to offer and we'll
47:18continue this discussion. So,
47:27>> how you feeling?
47:29>> It's a lot.
47:32>> Well, like I said, I haven't done that
47:33for a long time. You know, it's like
47:362016 or something like that. So, it was
47:38fun to go back and revisit that and see
47:41if I could get a little clearer because
47:42it's nice to get something a little
47:44clearer every time you revisit it,
47:46>> you know. And so, did that happen today?
47:49I think I got the explanation for why
47:52the value structures have to be
47:54characterized more clear than I did when
47:56I was lecturing for maps of meaning, for
47:58example.
47:58>> So, I think I understand that in a
48:00manner that's more compressible.
48:02>> So, all right. So,
48:04>> wait. Okay. So, I want to I want to
48:05start and um I also went to see the Snow
48:08White movie.
48:11Um and I guess a way to resume what
48:13Jordan is saying is to ask yourself the
48:15question, why was it so boring?
48:20Like why was it inane and why is it that
48:23no one cares about it? Right? And so
48:26what it what Jordan is trying to portray
48:28is that stories are not infinitely
48:30malleable. that unlike
48:33in accordance with the kind of
48:35postmodern world we we are saying that
48:37there is a overlay of value that brings
48:41the world of facts together. The
48:43postmoderns say that too but the
48:45postmoderns think that that world that
48:48is overlaid is arbitrary and that it is
48:51it is only a sense of force and a sense
48:54of power. What we're trying to say is
48:56that actually the order of attention,
48:58the hierarchy of attention is objective.
49:02And the reason why, you know, it's
49:03objective is because the Snow White
49:05movie is boring because no one likes to
49:07watch it. What I mean is that no one
49:09cares, right? This idea that Jordan is
49:11talking about where it is that you put
49:14your attention on something that
49:17reflects a universal structure of values
49:20and that's what makes people care about
49:22it. Now, you can push on that, right?
49:24You can push on it in towards extremes.
49:27It is possible because we do have in us
49:29a desire for exploration, right? So you
49:32can push on that and create horror
49:34stories, do this type of pushing into
49:36the margins. But at some point, if you
49:39don't order the story in the proper way,
49:42people just stop paying attention,
49:44>> right? Because no one will pay to watch
49:46propaganda.
49:47>> Well, it is it isn't even exactly that
49:49people stop paying attention. It's that
49:51their attention isn't gripped.
49:53>> Yeah. Right? Because you you know you
49:55might think well you could go to Snow
49:56White and you could be feel sorry for
49:58Disney because they spent a quarter of a
50:01billion dollars on this movie and so
50:05you'd expect it to grip your attention
50:08but it doesn't. And and and that's so
50:11weird. You see this is this is the
50:13crucial thing here with regards to
50:14Jonathan's comments about the the
50:16reality of the value structure. You see,
50:18because if you had any sense and and you
50:22could control what you thought was
50:24important, you'd think, well, I spent,
50:27you know, you bring your family, I spent
50:28$50 going to this movie. God damn it,
50:31I'm going to enjoy it. And that just
50:33doesn't work, right? You cannot force
50:35yourself to care about a movie that you
50:37don't care about. It has to entrance
50:40you, right? It has to grip you. Now, the
50:43question is, why does it grip you? See
50:46this is and this is an unbelievably
50:48important question. This is exactly the
50:50same question that the religious types
50:53grapple with when they talk about the
50:54issue of calling. You know there are
50:56things in the world that attract your
50:58attention. Now sometimes those are
51:00pathological things and you know you
51:01should get your act together and
51:03straighten up but some it's not it's
51:06very common that it's your destiny
51:08calling to you. It's the next step on
51:12your journey calling to you. It's your
51:14higher purpose calling to you. And if
51:17you have the courage to attend to that
51:19calling, then you magically transform.
51:22That's how it works. And everyone knows
51:24that. And so then when the narrative
51:27deviates from the pattern, it no one
51:30cares. It's because it doesn't call you
51:32anymore. It's it doesn't call you
51:34because it doesn't reflect the
51:36transcendent pattern. That's that's it.
51:38>> And and it's insane. Like we've been
51:40we've been told now for decades that the
51:43idea of a the story of a princess that
51:46finds her prince is ridiculous and you
51:49know it's p and it's antiquated. That is
51:52literally how the world continues to
51:54exist. Like a woman and a man coming
51:57together and getting coming together and
52:00then that is how the world continues to
52:01exist. The idea that that is ridiculous
52:03and inane is the dumbest thing in the
52:06world. You can have all the political
52:07ideology and revolutions you want. If
52:10you have no people, you have no world,
52:12right?
52:15Yeah. Well, and you can have a narrative
52:16that's bent enough that you proclaim
52:18that a world without people would be a
52:20better world, right? And that there's a
52:22villainous narrative for you,
52:24>> you know, and you can make everybody
52:26guilty about the fact that they want to
52:27get married and and have children
52:30because children are part of the force
52:31that's devouring the damn planet. And
52:33then you might ask exactly whose aim
52:36underlies that narrative as you should.
52:39And so and we're in that we're in a
52:41situation where that's literally the
52:43case. Like the New York was the New York
52:45Times last year talked about the
52:47morality of limiting the number of
52:49children that you bring into the world
52:50because of the planetary burden that
52:52you're placing on I don't know what the
52:54goddess of nature some damn thing. So
52:59yeah, but I think that it's encouraging
53:01now. Like actually this to me this most
53:04recent version of Snow White is actually
53:06hopeful, right? And the reason why it's
53:08hopeful is because when you watch it,
53:10you can see that they went way too far
53:13and they're actually trying to backtrack
53:15and they're trying to fix it and it ends
53:17up in this jumbled confused mess. But
53:19you can feel that they're trying to fix
53:21it which means that it feels like we're
53:23at the end. we're at the nier of this
53:25type of ideological storytelling and
53:27that hopefully it's all uphill from
53:30there. So, you know,
53:35so the original trailer for the Snow
53:37White movie um back then, that was a
53:41year and a half ago or something like
53:42that, they decided they were going to
53:44replace the dwarfs with like a diversity
53:46crowd. And that see there's an
53:49unbelievable arrogance in that because
53:52especially for storytellers because
53:53there's actually reasons that those
53:55dwarfs were who they were. So I I can go
53:58through the reasons. So in the original
53:59Grim Brothers fairy tale, the dwarfs are
54:02partial manifestations of the positive
54:05masculine. So they don't have names. So
54:08they're not they're not stellar
54:11individual men, but they're they're men
54:14who work hard to do the things that are
54:17necessary. So they're minors and they
54:21keep a clean house. And so this is very
54:23different than the this new Snow White
54:25because they're like messy little rats
54:27in the Snow White movie. And the woman
54:29who's like this progressive princess has
54:31to come in and clean house for them.
54:33>> She tells them what to do.
54:35>> Yes, she tells That's true. She tells
54:37them how to clean their house.
54:38>> Yes, that's true. That's true, Jonathan.
54:40That's true. In the original, the
54:42dwarves kept a good house. And now the
54:45Snow White, the princess, is getting
54:47away from the evil queen. Okay. So,
54:49whether you know it or not, that's what
54:51all the young women in your country are
54:52trying to do right now. They're trying
54:54to get away from the evil queen who is
54:57attempting to feed them poison apples so
55:00that they're infertile and unattractive.
55:02And it's working. And so so so so you
55:07can't you can't muck with that story.
55:09And it's it's partly because there is a
55:11negative feminine, you might say. And we
55:13could flesh it out a little bit. And so
55:15the negative feminine is the older woman
55:18who instead of being a mentor to a young
55:21woman is holding on desperately to her
55:24primarily sexual attractiveness and the
55:26power that confers on her to be envious
55:30of the upcoming generation, including
55:32her own daughters. and to hurt them so
55:36that she maintains control. And that's
55:39that's an eternal story, man. And you
55:42you see that reflected in all sorts of
55:44psychological investigation. So, for
55:46example, one of Freud's primary
55:48discoveries was the pathology of the
55:51edipal mother in the pathological
55:53family. And so, one of the conundrums
55:56that human beings have is that we have a
55:59very lengthy dependency period, right?
56:01Far more than any other creature. Like
56:03your kids are autonomous maybe when
56:06they're 80, 18 or 40. And
56:10and so they're unbelievably they're
56:12unbelievably dependent. And what that
56:14means is that there is very little
56:16that's more important than mother
56:18maternal love, especially for very
56:20little kids. But it also means that
56:22because that force is so powerful and
56:24children are so dependent on it, if it
56:27pathologizes and overextends itself,
56:30it's literally a world destroying force.
56:33And so the Ediple story in the Freudian
56:35world is the mother who's a little too
56:38close to her son in particular. And you
56:41can imagine a situation like that
56:42arising where there's a lot of tension
56:44between the father and the mother and
56:46the mother turns inappropriately to her
56:48son for as a source of support and
56:51attention and because she's desperately
56:53needs that she sabotages his attempts to
56:57become independent and attractive. And
56:59this is exactly by the way what's
57:01portrayed in the Disney movie Sleeping
57:03Beauty. You remember that Prince
57:06Philillip is caught in a dungeon by the
57:08evil queen. And she basically tells him
57:11that although he wants to go find
57:13Sleeping Beauty and like have a life,
57:15she's going to lock him in the dungeon
57:18till he's laughably old,
57:20>> right? And then these fairies come
57:22along. They're the benevolent feminine.
57:24And they get rid of his chains. And they
57:26encourage him to leave. And he escapes.
57:28And she turns into this horrible dragon
57:30that breathes fire like she's she's the
57:33force of nature itself gone
57:36pathologically wrong. And she stands in
57:38his way and he has to fight his way
57:41through her. He uses the sword of truth
57:44and the shield of virtue to overcome the
57:47dragon that the evil queen turns into.
57:49And then he hacks his way through the
57:50thorns and finds sleeping beauty and
57:52wakes her up. AND YOU CAN'T MESS WITH
57:54THAT story because it's always
57:57happening. And it has to happen because
57:59otherwise the prince doesn't meet the
58:02princess and the princess stays
58:03unconscious and asleep and the evil
58:06queen rules and the dragon emerges and
58:09burns everything to the ground. And it's
58:12strange that we don't know this when
58:14we're watching the movies, but it
58:15doesn't matter because they grip us,
58:17right? And they grip us by our most
58:19fundamental presuppositions. Yeah.
58:22>> Right. And and if you deviate from that,
58:24everyone's bored. And you can spend a
58:27quarter of a billion dollars and it
58:29doesn't make a bloody bit of difference.
58:33>> Yeah. We we started we started with, you
58:37know, Dustin Hoffman being seduced by
58:39the his girlfriend's mother in the
58:41graduate in the late 60s, early 70s I
58:44think it was. And you know, bit
58:48provocative, bit enticing. And at the
58:51end of that, if you follow that line,
58:52you end up with I'm sorry I'm going to
58:54say the word, but you end up with mils.
58:56You know, it's like you end up with like
58:58these old ladies, old what they call
59:00them, like the cougars, cougars or
59:02whatever. Like completely degenerate
59:04world of women in their 50s, you know,
59:07acting like they are still little
59:09starlets, you know, and that's really
59:11like that brings about total chaos in
59:13our society. Well, and it's also the
59:15case that it's also the case frequently
59:18that it's Oh god, we're going to get in
59:22such trouble here. It's that
59:24like there is a developmental course
59:27that's appropriate to the propagation of
59:29life. And so what you want as you age,
59:33if you're a man or a woman, is well, you
59:35start out young and you have your
59:36romantic adventure with one another and
59:38you have no children
59:40and then you have children and then all
59:41of a sudden it's not about you anymore.
59:44It's about them and then if you
59:47sacrifice for them and they grow up
59:50courageous and attractive, they find
59:52their own mates and then they have
59:53children and then your role is
59:54grandparent. It's not it's not
59:57competitor for the attention of the
1:00:00veriral young man. And you'd only want
1:00:02that if you hadn't had your life, right?
1:00:05Because then you're see there's the evil
1:00:07queen wants to hang on to her youth and
1:00:09beauty for a reason. And I'm not trying
1:00:11to say that like every older woman who's
1:00:14trying to look attractive is falling
1:00:16into that pit. I'm I'm just saying that
1:00:19there's a desperation that comes from
1:00:22not following the appropriate pattern
1:00:24properly and it becomes pathological.
1:00:26It's like being the oldest guy at the
1:00:28frat party. It's like when you're 18 and
1:00:31you're at a frat party, it's like no
1:00:33problem cuz you're 18. But if you're 40
1:00:35and you're at the frat party, people
1:00:37should be wondering just who the hell
1:00:39you are and why you think you're 18.
1:00:42Because a 40year-old ate an 18-year-old
1:00:4540-year-old is a pretty ugly sight.
1:00:47Yeah.
1:00:48>> Much less a 13year-old 40-year-old.
1:00:51>> Right. And so it's everything in its
1:00:53place, right? And so and you you can see
1:00:56in these narratives, the evil queen
1:00:58narratives, you can see in for a penny,
1:01:00in for a pound. You can see exactly
1:01:02what's happened in the universities too
1:01:04because they they're basically they've
1:01:06become they're basically they've
1:01:08basically been taken over by evil queen
1:01:10types who are poisoning the young women.
1:01:12And you know I I'M NOT SAYING THIS
1:01:14LIGHTLY. We bloody well know that the
1:01:18most miserable people in the United
1:01:21States are liberal women between the 18
1:01:24and 18 and 34. And
1:01:29and and you know, here's here's the
1:01:31dreadful here's the dreadful thing. Like
1:01:34you'd hope that education would
1:01:37illuminate and enlighten and free. But
1:01:39what's happened in the universities is
1:01:41that the more educated
1:01:44educated the more poisoned apples the
1:01:47young women have been fed, the more
1:01:49unconscious and miserable they've
1:01:51become. And this is and that's because
1:01:53they've fallen under the sway of the
1:01:55evil queen. And so then you might ask
1:01:57yourself because this is all about how
1:01:59the women are going wrong. You might ask
1:02:01where the hell are the men? And that's a
1:02:03really good question too. And so because
1:02:06they're not standing up and saying
1:02:07enough of this.
1:02:10Yeah.
1:02:12And so the the story when you see the
1:02:15roles especially in fairy tales when you
1:02:17see the roles of the feminine and the
1:02:19masculine you know you you realize that
1:02:21these are really they're archetypes
1:02:23obviously but they play a structural
1:02:26role and if you think about it you know
1:02:28to bring it back almost to the beginning
1:02:30when you talk about science there is
1:02:32this sense even in the scientific
1:02:34endeavor there is a sense in which there
1:02:36is this union you could say of masculine
1:02:38and feminine that is productive.
1:02:41You know, and so you have and you really
1:02:44have to reduce it to its elements. It's
1:02:46difficult because people get take it
1:02:49personal. It's like all of us are more
1:02:51than our gender. All of us are more than
1:02:53our sex, right? But when we have sex
1:02:55together and we produce a child, that's
1:02:58what we are, right? That's the reality
1:03:00of of that moment. And there's a re
1:03:02there's a a reality to that which is
1:03:05that the woman provides the body for the
1:03:08child, right? The man provides
1:03:10necessarily for the pregnant woman that
1:03:12has the baby in in her in her belly. The
1:03:15man will provide protection, will
1:03:18provide, you know, sustenance, will
1:03:20protect her because of that moment will
1:03:22provide direction for the family. And
1:03:25that is how the scientific endeavor
1:03:26works as well. You have a body, you have
1:03:29facts, and then you have a vertical, you
1:03:31have a reason why you're looking at the
1:03:33facts, right? There's a reason why you
1:03:35care about certain facts and not others.
1:03:38And that gathers it towards a productive
1:03:40scientific endeavor. You know, when you
1:03:42are it's really very similar to the
1:03:44prince coming and kissing Snow White
1:03:46because when you're doing science, you
1:03:48you're not studying everything at once.
1:03:51That's not possible. You have to select
1:03:54something and you have to bind it and
1:03:56bring it together. And that the
1:03:58attention that you give to that
1:04:01C that cir let's say bound together
1:04:03amount of facts is productive towards
1:04:06well and so that that plethora of
1:04:10valueless facts is to to further your
1:04:13metaphor it's that's the chaos that's
1:04:17potentially productive to avoid it's
1:04:20potential it's potential right exactly
1:04:22that and then
1:04:24>> the act of prioritizing is the act of
1:04:27the of the what do you call that
1:04:32the
1:04:32>> the fifying logo the right way the image
1:04:36you have the seed that is placed in the
1:04:39earth
1:04:40>> right the seed is bodyless purpose or
1:04:44bodyless pattern and the earth is a body
1:04:49without a pattern right so in the seed
1:04:51is the whole tree but the tree is
1:04:53nothing without the body so the seed
1:04:55fall goes into the earth and the earth
1:04:58provides a body for the seed and then
1:05:00you have a new tree. It's the pattern of
1:05:02everything. It's the pattern of life.
1:05:04But it is also the pattern of the sexual
1:05:07union in in in especially in the
1:05:09narrative form especially the one you
1:05:11see in the fairy tales or you see in the
1:05:13Bible or you see in the mythologies.
1:05:15>> Now you see you might say if you're a
1:05:17scientific materialist you might say
1:05:19well that's ridiculous symbolism and
1:05:21spiritualist nonsense. But then you see
1:05:25the most famous reductionist materialist
1:05:27atheist alive today is Richard Dawkins.
1:05:30And Richard Dawkins wrote a book where
1:05:32he claimed that and this is a pure
1:05:34biological claim as far as he was
1:05:36concerned that an organism could not
1:05:38survive in an environment unless it was
1:05:41a microcosm of that environment.
1:05:44Okay. So now that's a very interesting
1:05:46claim because it means that the organism
1:05:48itself reflects the entire structure.
1:05:51Well, we see we see
1:05:54the very essence of human survival is
1:05:59the dynamic between masculine and
1:06:00feminine. And if that's the fundamental
1:06:03biological reality and the fundamental
1:06:06biological reality has to be a microcosm
1:06:08or a reflection of the environment, then
1:06:11you have to conclude that the masculine
1:06:13element of the environment and the
1:06:15feminine element of the environment are
1:06:17the superordinate principle. I mean,
1:06:19this is Dawkins own argument. I tried to
1:06:21make that case to him when I talked to
1:06:23him like two months ago, three months
1:06:25ago, but it he he knew what I meant, but
1:06:28we never got anywhere with the
1:06:30discussion, you know, cuz it's very
1:06:32annoying to be proved wrong by your own
1:06:34ideas.
1:06:34>> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Seriously,
1:06:37seriously. And
1:06:39>> yeah, he couldn't deal he couldn't deal
1:06:40with the consequences of what that meant
1:06:43and how it does ultimately do what you
1:06:46proposed at the outset which is that the
1:06:48narrative structure
1:06:51>> precedes the scientific endeavor almost
1:06:53just necessarily, you know, in the
1:06:55scientist, in the things we care about,
1:06:58in the way we decide what to study, in
1:07:00the way that people fund certain studies
1:07:03rather than others. In every single way
1:07:04that science happens, it has to be
1:07:07framed within the narrative of the
1:07:09hierarchy of values. There's no
1:07:10>> well and it's if you know anything about
1:07:12scientists like the actual science,
1:07:14first of all, most scientists aren't
1:07:16scientists. They're just functionaries.
1:07:18And so, and that's partly because you
1:07:20need a lot of functionaries. The
1:07:22functionary to genius ratio has to be
1:07:24pretty high for anything to work. So,
1:07:26I'm not complaining about that. Look,
1:07:28there has to be beginner scientists like
1:07:30graduate students and so forth. And the
1:07:32science they do isn't very good, but
1:07:33they have to learn. And there has to be
1:07:35scientists who kind of publish, but
1:07:37nothing real useful, but they teach. And
1:07:39and then there's the people who are real
1:07:41scientists, and there aren't very many
1:07:43of them, but they do a lot of work. And
1:07:46those scientists, see, they're not
1:07:48pursuing money because if they were
1:07:50pursuing money, they wouldn't be
1:07:51scientists because it's not a way to
1:07:53make a lot of money. So then you might
1:07:55say, well, what are they pursuing? And
1:07:57the answer is well what the true
1:07:59scientists are pursuing is what calls to
1:08:01them. So they have a religious
1:08:03commitment to their object of inquiry.
1:08:05And what's the nature of the commitment?
1:08:07This is worth studying. Yeah. Right.
1:08:09This interests me. This engages me. I
1:08:12would voluntarily spend all my time
1:08:14chasing this. Chasing what you know
1:08:17Barbara Mcccleintoch I think that was
1:08:18her name. She studied the genetics of
1:08:21corn coloration in Indian corn for like
1:08:2430 years something like that. and she
1:08:26was kind of an outsider. Everybody
1:08:27thought, "What the hell's with this
1:08:28crazy broad studying like variations in
1:08:31color and corn and she made a discovery
1:08:34that was foundational to a number of
1:08:36cancer cures, you know, and so
1:08:39everything's a mystery and if you if you
1:08:41study it enough, you get to the bottom
1:08:43of things." And the genuine scientists
1:08:46are called by a burning bush. That's the
1:08:48right way of thinking about it. and it
1:08:49motivates them and it's something that's
1:08:51it's a manifestation of a superordinate
1:08:54value system that precedes them even
1:08:57because they chase it. They don't pick
1:08:59what they're interested in. It picks
1:09:02them and then they devote their life to
1:09:04it. And that's not in the scientific
1:09:08model. It's completely it's prior to it.
1:09:10And so what else is prior to it? You
1:09:12have to believe the universe is
1:09:14intelligible.
1:09:15Well, what's the proof of that? You have
1:09:18to believe that attempting to understand
1:09:20the universe is positive. Well, maybe it
1:09:22is and maybe it's not. You have to
1:09:24understand assume that you could
1:09:27understand and that there's communal
1:09:30value in that. And those are all a
1:09:32priory commitments before the scientific
1:09:34endeavor even gets off the ground. And
1:09:36then you have to assume that pursuing
1:09:38what interests you
1:09:40is justification for your sacrifices.
1:09:44Right? And so that's all part of the
1:09:46narrative in which science is embedded.
1:09:49And if that narrative is upward oriented
1:09:52in the proper manner, then science
1:09:53becomes a productive enterprise.
1:09:55Otherwise, it becomes like Dr. Evil and
1:09:58nuclear annihilation.
1:10:00Right? Same data
1:10:04indeed.
1:10:05All right. I want I want I think we're
1:10:07going to bring Tammy out, but I want to
1:10:08I want to make a shameless call to all
1:10:10of you, which is that right now in
1:10:14Hollywood, in the world of storytelling,
1:10:16everything is shaking. We can feel like
1:10:19the model of this kind of ideological
1:10:22propaganda type stories are falling
1:10:24apart. But now we all need
1:10:30you. Everyone here in this room has
1:10:32something very precious and that is your
1:10:34attention. And so we all have to be
1:10:36deliberate about what it is we give our
1:10:39attention to, what it is we and so we we
1:10:42can criticize and we complain about how
1:10:44bad the stories are, but we also have to
1:10:46move into a new form of storytelling. We
1:10:49have to be able to move towards better
1:10:51stories. And so I'm going to, if you are
1:10:53interested, I myself and my team, we are
1:10:56rewriting the fairy tales right now.
1:10:58We're doing it in a mode that is
1:11:00celebratory, that is trying to elevate
1:11:02them to the highest level that we can.
1:11:04Uh, and so if you're interested in that,
1:11:06we wrote a version of Snow White called
1:11:08Snow White and the Widow Queen. And
1:11:09we're hoping to prove Hollywood wrong.
1:11:12We're trying to prove to them that if
1:11:13you tell these stories beautifully with
1:11:15a type of honor and a type of
1:11:17celebration, that that is actually the
1:11:19stories that matter and it's the stories
1:11:21that people will care for. So, thank you
1:11:22for that little
1:11:29So, you know, I'll just I'll just put a
1:11:31capstone on what Jonathan just said. If
1:11:33you understand that there's no
1:11:35difference between what you worship and
1:11:37what you pay attention to, if you
1:11:39actually understand that, you'll be a
1:11:40lot more careful with what you do with
1:11:42your attention,
1:11:43>> right? Because the what you're doing
1:11:45with your attention goes all the way up,
1:11:48all the way up or all the way down,
1:11:51right? So, beware. And that's especially
1:11:54true given these machines that you're
1:11:57going to be increasingly interacting
1:11:58with because they will take you wherever
1:12:01your attention
1:12:03we're they will take you towards
1:12:05whatever you orient your attention
1:12:07toward and so be careful.
1:12:11>> That's for sure. Okay, Tam, let's come
1:12:14out. Have you come out and uh
1:12:19>> Hi
1:12:21Ready?
1:12:27Ready. Okay.
1:12:32What's your take on the heated political
1:12:36situation between the US and Canada?
1:12:44There's a little bit more. How can we
1:12:46work to keep the friendship going
1:12:48between our two great nations?
1:12:55>> Do you want Do you want to start?
1:12:57>> Sure, I I'll start. The first thing that
1:13:00you have to know is that most of you
1:13:03really don't want Canada to join the
1:13:05United States, right? I'm just saying
1:13:08the next elections will not be great if
1:13:10that happens. And so that's the first
1:13:12thing. I think the second thing that I'd
1:13:14like to say is, you know, we're
1:13:16watching. It's hard to tell. Like Donald
1:13:18Trump, he there's something that he
1:13:21wants. He hasn't yet completely revealed
1:13:23what that is. He's just he's pushing and
1:13:25proddding. He's making everything shake.
1:13:28And at some point, it will become clear
1:13:30what he wants. My intuition is that what
1:13:34he wants is for Canada to get its act
1:13:36together, you know, militarily, uh,
1:13:39economically, and, you know, and so I
1:13:41think that that's what he wants. And if
1:13:43that's what he wants, then I'm all for
1:13:45it, you know. But if, but if there's a
1:13:47darker aspect to it, which is if it is
1:13:50this just kind of America trying to find
1:13:53someone to bully to make itself look
1:13:55strong, then I don't see that playing
1:13:58out well, you know, in the long term.
1:13:59So,
1:14:00>> yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Trump is a
1:14:04mystery and I suspect
1:14:07I suspect to some degree even to himself
1:14:10and as we all well as we all are, right?
1:14:13As we all are and he's a complex
1:14:15character and he's playing a very
1:14:16complex role. So, I'm not saying any of
1:14:18this lightly, you know, and I do believe
1:14:22that there's a part of him that
1:14:26is hoping that your northern na neighbor
1:14:30gets its act together, even if he's
1:14:32primarily indicating that by contempt.
1:14:34>> Yeah. Because like well I think one of
1:14:38the most productive ways of viewing what
1:14:41Trump is doing without being naive is
1:14:44by observing that he couldn't be
1:14:47dismissive
1:14:49and contemptuous of Canada if the
1:14:52groundwork for that hadn't been laid.
1:14:54And it has been laid. I can say that as
1:14:56a Canadian and it's been laid in a bunch
1:14:58of ways. The last 10 years of Trudeau
1:15:02government have been appalling. We were
1:15:04as rich as you were 10 years ago. In
1:15:06fact, we had a slight advantage. And now
1:15:09you make you produce a dollar for every
1:15:1260 cents we produce. That's not good.
1:15:15And the prognosis for Canada is worse
1:15:17performance over the next 40 years.
1:15:19We've become almost entirely reliant on
1:15:23your country for our fossil fuel
1:15:24production because we're too clueless to
1:15:27build pipelines across our country, east
1:15:29to west. And when the leaders of Germany
1:15:33and Japan, I can't say this without it
1:15:36hurting my heart. When the leaders of
1:15:37Germany and Japan came to Trudeau when
1:15:42the Russians started saber rattling in
1:15:44the Ukraine, they both asked him for
1:15:47untrabled access to Canadian liquid
1:15:50natural gas for like the next 40 years.
1:15:53And he told both of them within the same
1:15:55month that he couldn't make a business
1:15:56case for that. And Trump signed a
1:15:59billion dollar deal, a trillion dollar
1:16:02deal this month that should have been
1:16:04Canada's and could have been. And so,
1:16:07and then our country, our leader Trudeau
1:16:12has,
1:16:13you know, he's done some terrible
1:16:15things. He locked down Canadians bank
1:16:17accounts, which was utterly
1:16:18unforgivable. That was the most
1:16:19totalitarian thing I've ever seen a
1:16:21Western Democrat leader do.
1:16:26And then he also he's a WF puppet to the
1:16:30core. And he also has told Canadians for
1:16:3210 years that the country has absolutely
1:16:35no national identity of any value except
1:16:39that of colonial patriarchal oppressor
1:16:42essentially. And now Trump says, "Well,
1:16:44you've got a pretty pathetic country
1:16:46there. Why don't you just be one of our
1:16:48states one? How insulting is that?" It's
1:16:51like,
1:16:53"How about 10 of your states?" You know,
1:16:55"No, one. You deserve one." It's like,
1:16:58"Oh, just one." It's like, and and what
1:17:02Canadians do, they don't go, "Oh, you
1:17:04know, what the hell are you talking
1:17:06about? Look at us." Like, you know,
1:17:07we're together. They go, "Quit picking
1:17:10on us." It's like, that's pretty sad,
1:17:13you know, because it should be just
1:17:14laughable. But the problem is, and this
1:17:16is what Trump's trying to figure out,
1:17:18it's not laughable.
1:17:20It's not laughable. The uh uh the leader
1:17:23of a foreign country says, "I don't
1:17:24think your country should exist." And
1:17:26the people in the country go, "Well,
1:17:28that's unfair. That's the best defense
1:17:30they can come up with." And so, and our
1:17:33military in Canada is in, oh my god,
1:17:36like your military is suffering under,
1:17:38you know, after 15 years of DEI idiocy.
1:17:41But you should see ours, our bloody
1:17:43soldiers have to buy their own boots.
1:17:46And really, that's that's the truth. And
1:17:48so, you know, there's some welldeserved
1:17:51contempt.
1:17:53>> Some contempt towards that is welld
1:17:55deserved. And Trump is a bull in the
1:17:57China shop. And I think he was very
1:17:59careless in his comments about Canada.
1:18:01And he made a big mistake because he the
1:18:04Liberal Party in Canada. So that's the
1:18:06Trudeau party. They were dead in the
1:18:09water a month ago. Dead. The party was
1:18:11going to cease to exist because
1:18:12Trudeau's been such a disaster. and
1:18:14Trump came out and, you know, saber
1:18:16rattled and threatened Canada and
1:18:18Canadians like to feel all virtuously
1:18:21anti-American. And so now the Liberals
1:18:22are riding high and so that was
1:18:25careless. I mean, unless Trump's goal is
1:18:27truly to destabilize the country because
1:18:29that'll happen if we elect the Liberals
1:18:32again. You know, Carney, who's now
1:18:34Canada's prime minister, he's a net zero
1:18:37advocate, man. And like on a major
1:18:39scale, he was governor of the Bank of
1:18:41England. Every stupid idea of the last
1:18:4320 years has Mark Carney's name stamped
1:18:46on it on the international scene. He
1:18:48loves diversity, equity, and
1:18:50inclusivity. He's a uh a central
1:18:53planning WF uh mainstay. He was UN
1:18:58climate envoy. And he thinks that
1:19:00threearters of the world's fossil fuels
1:19:02have to stay in the ground. And that's
1:19:04that's like the Canadian economy is like
1:19:07mostly a natural resource economy. And
1:19:10oh, so I'm actually I got to say I'm
1:19:15happy that Trumped around like a mad
1:19:17man. And I think he made a big mistake
1:19:19politically because I'm not happy with
1:19:21the fact that the Liberals are back
1:19:24riding high in the polls. That's quite
1:19:26the cataclysm. And I think he's going to
1:19:28be a sorry man if Carney gets elected
1:19:30because Carney will do absolutely
1:19:32everything he can to undermine
1:19:34everything Trump does on the
1:19:35international scene. and he will do that
1:19:38effectively because he has the
1:19:39connections. So that's not good
1:19:42strategically, but I'm thrilled that he
1:19:45maybe woke the country up a little bit
1:19:46and forced it to get its attentional
1:19:49priorities straight.
1:19:51>> Maybe. We'll see. So
1:19:54>> So yeah,
1:19:56>> right. Vote Pierre. Yeah, exactly.
1:19:58That's right.
1:19:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Or else, right?
1:20:06you.
1:20:07>> It's nice of you Americans to notice, by
1:20:09the way.
1:20:12>> Well, here we are on stage and
1:20:14everything. Yeah.
1:20:15>> Hopefully, they noticed.
1:20:17>> You have stated that you cannot think of
1:20:20a single negative interaction with your
1:20:22mother.
1:20:24>> How does one become a mother whose
1:20:27children remember them so fondly?
1:20:32Well, do you think that you I mean my
1:20:36mom and dad had some trouble in their
1:20:37marriage primarily because my dad
1:20:39suffered from depression and that made
1:20:41things difficult for my mom and
1:20:43genuinely so and it's not like my dad
1:20:45was happy about that. But um apart from
1:20:49experiencing
1:20:51secondhand the difficulties in their
1:20:53marriage, did you ever have any negative
1:20:54interactions with my mom?
1:20:56>> No.
1:20:57Well, so and she's my mom was her
1:21:00mother-in-law. So, think about that.
1:21:05So, why was that? Well, oh my god. I'll
1:21:08tell you a funny story. This is such a
1:21:10stupid story, but it's my mother in a
1:21:12nutshell. Oh my god. I can't believe
1:21:14this popped into my head. I went to
1:21:17Manhattan
1:21:1920 years ago with Julian, my son, and he
1:21:22was singing at Carnegie Hall. He was
1:21:24singing in this uh choir.
1:21:27Yeah. Yeah. He was singing songs that a
1:21:30Canadian composer had set to poetry that
1:21:32was written by kids in a concentration
1:21:34camp in Nazi Germany. And we went to Car
1:21:37Carnegie Hall and to the UN to hear his
1:21:40choir. And I asked my mother and and her
1:21:43sister to come to Manhattan and she was
1:21:45always up for an adventure. So they had
1:21:47never been to Manhattan and uh they were
1:21:49pretty thrilled about that. And we got
1:21:51to go see Julian at Carnegie Hall and at
1:21:53the UN which was like that was cool. and
1:21:56and we were in Manhattan and my sister
1:21:58who's a bit of a troublemaker and has
1:22:00good sense of humor decided that she
1:22:02would take my mother and her sister both
1:22:05of whom are somewhat sheltered farm
1:22:06girls to a drag club and it was a
1:22:11Chinese rest this was before the whole
1:22:14you know everything that's happened in
1:22:16the last 15 years. So, it was it was a
1:22:18joke and it was this Chinese restaurant
1:22:21that had this big black drag queen as
1:22:24the MC and like girls were going there
1:22:26with their stagettes to have a time, you
1:22:29know, and so we went to this restaurant
1:22:32and there was this huge black drag queen
1:22:35there and and uh and my my poor aunt,
1:22:40who was even more naive and sheltered
1:22:42than my mother, just sat there the whole
1:22:44time like this.
1:22:47It was the com. But they have good
1:22:48senses of humor, both those women. And
1:22:50anyways, this black drag queen came
1:22:52along and got a look at my mom. And my
1:22:54mom had like snow white hair and was a
1:22:56very fair person. And the drag queen
1:22:59said, "You are the whitest person I've
1:23:02ever seen." And my mother got like she
1:23:04kind of blushed and she was kind of
1:23:06laughing. And the the black drag queen
1:23:08said, "I bet you make a mean apple pie."
1:23:10And my mom said, "Oh yeah, yeah, I
1:23:12actually do."
1:23:13So,
1:23:16it was so funny because those two people
1:23:19like you couldn't believe they were both
1:23:21part of the same species. They were so
1:23:24they were so far apart and they had a
1:23:27fun time and it was a funny interaction.
1:23:28But that was my mother. Like she was up
1:23:30for an adventure and she was a sheltered
1:23:33person in a way. Uh but she was no
1:23:35pushover and she was very good-natured
1:23:37and hospitable and she could laugh at
1:23:39herself and she was a delight to be
1:23:41around and I it is the case like if I
1:23:45when the day she died I was in a
1:23:47helicopter flying over um the Grand
1:23:51Canyon we were in we had done a show in
1:23:53Las Vegas you know um for a couple of
1:23:56years I was banned in Las Vegas.
1:24:01Isn't that good? I'm so happy about
1:24:03that. It's like gambling, mafia, murder,
1:24:07prostitution, no problem. But Peterson,
1:24:10no way.
1:24:21So I I definitely regard that as an
1:24:23accomplishment. Anyways, we we were
1:24:25flying over the Grand Canyon and I had
1:24:27traveled quite a bit with my mom on tour
1:24:29as well. And we did that partly because
1:24:31we knew that she would have been up for
1:24:33that adventure. And I spent the whole
1:24:34day thinking about her. And I really and
1:24:38still even since then, like
1:24:41I think the one memory that stands out,
1:24:45and this is typical of my mother too, is
1:24:47my sister and me and my little brother.
1:24:50I was probably about 10 and he was about
1:24:54five and she was about seven. We were
1:24:56orangutanging around the house and
1:24:58causing trouble and making noise and
1:25:00torturing my poor mother. And she took
1:25:02out a wooden spoon and she whacked one
1:25:05of us with it and it broke. And so we
1:25:06laughed and she burst into tears. And
1:25:08then, you know, we felt like absolute
1:25:10wretched, nasty, horrible little
1:25:12savages, which is exactly what we were
1:25:14for, you know, bothering our mom to the
1:25:17point where she actually got upset. And
1:25:19like
1:25:21that's my memory of a negative
1:25:23interaction with her, you know. So
1:25:26that's pretty good. So yeah. Yeah. And
1:25:29that's
1:25:31she was a very hospitable person and uh
1:25:36a very self-sacrificing person and maybe
1:25:38to a fault. Although, you know, when
1:25:40push came to shove and she had to stand
1:25:42up for herself, she went out and had
1:25:43herself a career once her kids hit
1:25:46school and she
1:25:48got a pretty decent position in our
1:25:50town. She ran the library at the local
1:25:52college and she set her career in order.
1:25:56And so, she was a successful wife and a
1:25:58successful mother and she had a
1:25:59successful career and she was a lot of
1:26:01fun to be around. And so, you know, two
1:26:04thumbs up for my mom.
1:26:13You got anything to say about her?
1:26:15>> I love her.
1:26:17>> Why?
1:26:18>> She was a good mom. I love her.
1:26:21>> Yeah.
1:26:22>> Yeah. She supported us and played with
1:26:25us and and was great and came along with
1:26:29us for fun and she was just great
1:26:31person.
1:26:32>> Yeah. She was a good grandmother.
1:26:34>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Julian loved her. I mean,
1:26:38>> good memories. All good memories.
1:26:40>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:41>> So, what are your thoughts on underage
1:26:44drinking?
1:26:46>> I was an expert at it.
1:26:47>> Yeah.
1:26:51>> Well, I grew up in northern Alberta and
1:26:53and um I don't know how to explain
1:26:56northern Alberta to you. Um
1:26:59do you ever watch the Trailer Park Boys?
1:27:03>> Yeah. Well, that's Eastern Canada, but
1:27:06Western Canada has its version and it's
1:27:09even more whatever the hell that is than
1:27:13Eastern Canada. And Fairview was like
1:27:16that a lot. And it was dark and cold for
1:27:20much of the year. Like the year I went
1:27:22to college, it was 40 below for 38 days
1:27:26in a row, right? Well, so of course you
1:27:29drink.
1:27:32What are my thoughts? It's a bad idea to
1:27:34drink when you're a teenager. Really,
1:27:37alcohol is a very destructive drug and
1:27:40it's very addictive and especially for
1:27:42people who enjoy it and I really enjoyed
1:27:44it. And uh you learn how to socialize
1:27:47only when you're intoxicated and all
1:27:49your friends drink. And a lot of my
1:27:51friends became like not good alcoholics.
1:27:54And um it's amazing we didn't die on the
1:27:57back roads because we used to drive
1:27:59around drunk all the time way the hell
1:28:01out in the middle of the prairie in in
1:28:03the dark of night. And the poor bored
1:28:05policemen out in that northern outpost
1:28:07would chase us around. And that was
1:28:10their job. Chase stupid drunk teenagers.
1:28:12And our job was to avoid the cops and
1:28:15not die. And mostly we did that. Um
1:28:20it was it was it was too much really.
1:28:23And alcohol is a bad alcohol's bad drug,
1:28:26you know. So alcohol is the only drug we
1:28:29know that actually makes people more
1:28:31aggressive chemically.
1:28:34Half of people who are murdered are
1:28:35drunk. Half the people who murder them
1:28:37are drunk. There'd be almost no domestic
1:28:40physical abuse if it wasn't for alcohol.
1:28:42Like, it's a major contributor to heart
1:28:44disease and cancer. Like, it's it's bad
1:28:47news. And it's a bad idea when you're
1:28:49young because I started drinking when I
1:28:51was probably 13, something like that.
1:28:54And you structure your social life
1:28:56around. It took me a long time to
1:28:59even figure out that you could have a
1:29:01social life without drinking like 30
1:29:03beer. And so
1:29:07better not to do it. Now it's tough a
1:29:09because you don't want to be completely
1:29:11sheltered. And one of the things that's
1:29:13happened to young people now is they
1:29:15don't date. They don't go out with their
1:29:17friends. They don't drink. And you might
1:29:19think, well, that's an improvement. It's
1:29:21like, no,
1:29:23doing nothing isn't an improvement over
1:29:26breaking some rules. But
1:29:35alcohol is a bad drug and your life is a
1:29:38lot like you know we travel a lot. We
1:29:40I'll tell you one more thing about that.
1:29:42We travel a lot Tammy and I we've been
1:29:44on the road for eight years and we've
1:29:47gone to like I don't know 600 cities.
1:29:50Like we've traveled a lot and in most of
1:29:52those cities we meet people for dinner
1:29:54and lunch and they're often cultural
1:29:56leaders of one sort or another and
1:29:59sometimes they'll have a drink or two
1:30:01and after two drinks they all get less
1:30:04impressive
1:30:06you know and like I don't drink anything
1:30:08and neither does Tammy and partly
1:30:09because what we're doing is high stakes
1:30:11and there's no room for error at all but
1:30:15it's noticeable and so I would also say
1:30:17if you have something that's important
1:30:19to Do alcohol is not improving your
1:30:22performance. So better better to step
1:30:25lightly.
1:30:35You've said that children need to
1:30:37understand that malevolence exists in
1:30:40the world. At what age should you go
1:30:42about that and how should it be
1:30:44explained?
1:30:47Well, you you probably do that mostly
1:30:49with stories. You know, I was talking to
1:30:51my son. He's reading his grand his son
1:30:55who's only four, he's reading his son
1:30:57Harry Potter, and that's pretty rough
1:31:00for a four-year-old. But this little guy
1:31:02is he's pretty verbally proficient and
1:31:05he's got a long attention span and he
1:31:07can handle a complex story. And you
1:31:09know, I exposed my kids to relatively
1:31:13rough narrative material pretty young.
1:31:15And I taught them to watch the hero,
1:31:18right? So, you know, cuz it's scary.
1:31:22Disney movies are scary. Lord of the
1:31:24Rings is scary. Harry Potter is scary.
1:31:27And so, what do you do about that? You
1:31:28can shelter your kids from it, or you
1:31:30can teach them to keep their eye on the
1:31:32hero. And that's what you want to teach
1:31:34them in their life, right? Is like, keep
1:31:35your eye on the hero. he'll get through
1:31:38it. And so then you teach them to be
1:31:40brave and resourceful and
1:31:44courageous instead of sheltering them.
1:31:47And if you don't shelter them, then the
1:31:49evil queen doesn't inhabit your house.
1:31:52And that's very very important because
1:31:55she's also malevolent.
1:31:57So and how how do you know when when you
1:32:01should do that with your ch children?
1:32:03Well, you got to know, you got to get to
1:32:05know them. You know, some kids,
1:32:10some kids
1:32:12are very hard to frighten and other kids
1:32:16are very easy to frighten. And so,
1:32:19you got to watch your kid. And so, if if
1:32:22it's too much, you think, "Well, that
1:32:23was a little too much." And you wait for
1:32:25a while. And you know, you got to Well,
1:32:29this is what you do when you're playing
1:32:31with your kids is you you push them, you
1:32:33know, like a good game with a kid is a
1:32:37game on the edge. You know, if you're a
1:32:39father, you know this, you're you're
1:32:40playing with your kids physically,
1:32:43wrestling with them and throwing them in
1:32:44the air. And you know, it's so
1:32:47interesting even little kids, little
1:32:49tiny kids, you know, like my son-in-law,
1:32:51I watch him now, he's got this little
1:32:54guy who's about a year old. And my
1:32:57son-in-law is pretty big guy. He's about
1:32:5966.
1:33:00>> I don't know. Pretty big guy.
1:33:01>> He's bigger than I am.
1:33:03>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he throws this
1:33:05baby up in the air. It's like I'm
1:33:07thinking, "Wow, what's that like to be
1:33:08that baby?" It's like, you know, you're
1:33:11like here, 30 feet off the ground and a
1:33:13giant is throwing you in the air and
1:33:15that's pretty exciting and he loves it.
1:33:17This kid's pretty, you know, rangy kid
1:33:19and not easily scared. And so, but if
1:33:22the kid's laughing and having a good
1:33:24time, then that's not too much. And if
1:33:26he's like crying in terror and your wife
1:33:28is like hitting you with a frying pan,
1:33:30then probably you've pushed the limit a
1:33:32bit. And so, you can figure that out. If
1:33:35if it's not fun,
1:33:39then it's too much, you know, and but
1:33:41it's tricky because the most fun is
1:33:43right on the edge of disaster, right? So
1:33:46that's where it's most fun.
1:33:52Yeah. I've always thought that fairy
1:33:54tales especially, there's something like
1:33:56I don't know how to say it, like trauma
1:33:59preparation for children. And that's why
1:34:01when people tell me, I don't like
1:34:03telling these fairy tales to my kids
1:34:04because there's like a big bad wolf
1:34:06that's eating the child. There's all
1:34:07these horrible things. I'm like, you
1:34:08know, the big bad wolf is an imagistic
1:34:12uh, you know, story and the child can
1:34:16take it in. You don't have to tell them
1:34:18about the horrible rapist that's hiding
1:34:19in the dark. You tell them the story of
1:34:21a big bad wolf and it prepares the child
1:34:23so that when they encounter real
1:34:26situations of danger, they have that
1:34:28spider sense already in them and they
1:34:30can recognize opportunities. Sometimes
1:34:32it's not just negative opportunities as
1:34:34well, but then also the negative aspects
1:34:36of of our possible story.
1:34:38>> Yeah.
1:34:38>> Yeah. Your job is not to protect your
1:34:40children from serpents. Your job is to
1:34:42teach them how to handle serpents,
1:34:45right? And so
1:34:47>> Yeah.
1:34:50Right. And that's that's a tough game.
1:34:52That's that's very hard. And and you
1:34:54have to be awake to play that game
1:34:56properly. And your children want to see
1:35:00that in you. They want to see that their
1:35:03father in particular, but also their
1:35:04mother has the courage to contend with
1:35:08the terrible forces of the world. And
1:35:10they want to see that the father in
1:35:13particular, but also the mother, if
1:35:15she's playing a role properly, has faith
1:35:18in their ability to prevail and
1:35:20adventure. And so, and that's so that's
1:35:24why you have to offer your children to
1:35:25the world. That's what Abraham does with
1:35:27Isaiah when he's offering them upward.
1:35:29It's like you have to offer your
1:35:30children, God, you have to offer your
1:35:33children to be destroyed by the world or
1:35:36you're the destructive force. Right? So,
1:35:39and the thing is this is what happens in
1:35:41the story of Abraham is that Abraham is
1:35:44willing to offer his son to God and God
1:35:46gives him his son back. And what does
1:35:47that mean? Well, if you if you're
1:35:49parents and you offer your children to
1:35:51the world, they'll become competent and
1:35:54and courageous and and adventurous and
1:35:58they'll like you and want to have a
1:35:59relationship with you and then you'll
1:36:01get them back. And so, that's a good
1:36:03deal.
1:36:08Kids are tough. Yeah, kids are tough.
1:36:11And and and and you can teach them a lot
1:36:14and they can surprise you with how brave
1:36:17they are. And that's what you want. You
1:36:19want your kids to surprise you with how
1:36:20brave they are
1:36:21>> and you want to encourage that and that
1:36:23takes some risk. So
1:36:26you do that within the confines of love,
1:36:29right? And you want to make it a game
1:36:31and then it's okay. No force, right? or
1:36:35minimal necessary force. Okay, good.
1:36:39Thank you everybody.
1:36:43Lovely to see you.
1:36:55>> Thanks, Tam.
1:36:56>> You're welcome.
1:36:57>> Thank you, Jonathan.
1:36:58>> Thank you, Jonathan. It's been great.
1:37:02Thank you all very much for coming.
1:37:04>> Thank you.
1:37:05>> Yeah. Good night.
1:37:07>> Good night.

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