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Why You Wake Up at 2am! Sleep Expert on EXACTLY How to Sleep Better — Transcript

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0:00most people will say to me okay well
0:01what Aid do I do what evening routine
0:03should I do what do I do when I wake up
0:05should I take magnesium extra melatonin
0:08what do I need to do what are the things
0:10that we're all obsessing about that you
0:12actually can tell us don't make a huge
0:13difference to us I would say Stephanie
0:17ramesy over 20 years experience in
0:20improving people's sleep is the 8 hour
0:22rule a myth should we really be focusing
0:25on our bedtime routine and how can we
0:27improve our Sleep Quality you get the I
0:30to call them the Sleep anxiety Gremlins
0:32explain if we're obsessed with this idea
0:35that we have to get 8 hours and it has
0:36to be every single night there would be
0:39no variability in that I think people
0:40are so confused about do I actually have
0:43a sleep problem or don't I what
0:45techniques have you identified that help
0:47people push those gr LS away so what
0:50could you do so first thing
0:53is Steph welcome to the show thank you
0:56thanks for having me where should we
0:58begin that will be of most value to
1:00people who've seen the word sleep and
1:03clicked on this episode probably how we
1:07sleep so you have two main sleep
1:09mechanisms okay the H homeostatic sleep
1:12Drive which is like the sort of the it
1:15drives you to actually be able to fall
1:17asleep at a certain time of day and then
1:19you have something called your circadian
1:21rhythms which in Latin it literally just
1:24means around 24 hours and you have
1:27certain physiological processes one of
1:29them being your sleep wake cycle which
1:31is on a 24-hour Rhythm your sleep drive
1:35this homeostatic sleep drive it starts
1:37from the moment you get up in the
1:39morning so this idea that focusing on
1:43your evening routine or even thinking
1:46about something you might do to stop
1:48waking up in the night when you do or
1:50when you wake up in the night a few
1:52times H how can I get back to sleep it's
1:54very flawed because ultimately in order
1:57to have a good drive to sleep so
2:00predictable sleepiness and then the
2:02ability to have a a fairly good quality
2:05of sleep through the night means getting
2:08up at a consistent time in the morning
2:10so it starts from the morning so you
2:12build that pressure so the irony being
2:14is that you spending time awake is
2:16building pressure to sleep you cannot
2:18sleep if you haven't been awake and yet
2:20we all fear being awake too long and
2:23what sleep deprivation might do to us
2:25when the IR any being is when you build
2:27up any kind of sleep de the first thing
2:30you're going to do is feel a a drive
2:32kick in but because we're so
2:34unpredictable with our getup times we
2:36don't often see that predictable Drive
2:39kick in so it's very interesting to me
2:41that we started telling people go to bed
2:43at the same time but actually the most
2:45important thing is the get up but it's
2:48hard I get it because when you're
2:49struggling to sleep or kids are making
2:52you or sleep awful and there's so many
2:54things that can affect our sleep the
2:55worst thing you want to do is still get
2:57up at the same time but if you were a
3:00little bit more consistent than probably
3:02most of the global population is now
3:05we'd all just have better sleep because
3:09that one fun fundamental principle of
3:11getting up at the same time is you know
3:14building a predictable sleep pressure
3:16and it's helping your brain to
3:18understand when to start that 24-hour
3:20cycle which you are going to go through
3:22every day or around 24 hours I should
3:24say so as a sleep expert Steph what's
3:27your own sleep patterns like I hate
3:30being called a sleep expert I've been
3:31doing this for almost 20 years and I
3:33still think I don't know that much about
3:36sleep so let's call me you prefer the
3:39Explorer some kind of Explorer someone
3:40who's fascinated or passionate about
3:42this um but what is my sleep like well
3:45it's I would say I would say my sleep is
3:48fairly good but just like everybody else
3:51hormones impact my sleep um what I've
3:54done during the day impacts my sleep
3:56stress impacts my sleep illness impacts
3:58my sleep is it is is that normal of
4:01course with all the knowledge that I've
4:03gained I know that I cannot avoid that
4:07happening ever short term your sleep is
4:11supposed to be adaptable and variable
4:14you know before the Industrial
4:15Revolution we were much more in line
4:18with obviously the the planet's rotation
4:20as I said and the seasonal changes your
4:23sleep was able and still is able to EB
4:26and flow with what happens if you think
4:28about it when you get sick and your body
4:30needs to do more because we do a lot of
4:32uh you know we we um we uh reduce
4:37inflammation basically when we're
4:38sleeping not just when we're sleeping
4:40but that is a big time we're doing it so
4:42sometimes when you're sick you need more
4:44sleep well if we were if we're obsessed
4:47with this idea that we have to get eight
4:48hours and it has to be every single
4:50night there would be no variability in
4:52that you you actually wouldn't be able
4:54to recover very well similarly if you're
4:56going through a clock change or a time
4:58zone shift how would your body shift if
5:01you were supposed to have eight hours at
5:03exactly the same time every single night
5:05so that's not how it works so I know
5:08that variability is normal I'm pregnant
5:10at the moment I'm 24 weeks pregnant um
5:13and I know that my my body is trying to
5:15grow bones and that I cannot expect my
5:18sleep to be the same as when I was 25
5:21years old and in a very different place
5:24so I think we it's worrying how we talk
5:27about you know basically from an adult
5:29onward till the day you die you're
5:31supposed to get eight hours of sleep or
5:33or it's completely impossible so can I
5:36ask you then about this idea of sleep
5:37Drive I understand that getting up at
5:40let's say 6:30 every day allows you to
5:42get into a pattern or into a system
5:44right but how does that make the sleep
5:47that you have better quality sleep when
5:50you wake up around about the same time
5:52what you don't have the ability to do is
5:54sleep in and when you sleep in you're
5:56confusing your brain it doesn't
5:58understand then that you still want to
6:00feel sleepy at 10:00 or 11:00 and you
6:02still want to be able to get through the
6:04night so basically you I I guess a good
6:07way of explaining it is a bit like a
6:09phone battery most of us kind of
6:12understand now that with a phone battery
6:14you probably need to let it go down
6:15quite a bit and then you charge it up
6:17again and that's a nice consistent
6:19pattern it's nice and predictable you
6:21understand when it's going to work and
6:22when maybe it won't work but then if
6:24you're quite inconsistent about that
6:25process not only do you not know when
6:27it's going to work but you now have a
6:30problem with the actual battery not
6:33being very strong and the battery
6:35weakens that's basically what your sleep
6:38Drive is doing so if you think about it
6:40when you get up about the same time
6:42every day you can't alleviate any sleep
6:45debt that you might have incurred so
6:47what your brain will do if you really do
6:49have anything that it needs to alleviate
6:52is it will make you either go to bed a
6:54bit earlier if if you need to so you
6:56might feel a bit sleepier a bit earlier
6:59but
7:00something amazing happens in your brain
7:02which is that you don't always have to
7:05uh get like for like so if you lose 4
7:06hours you don't have to gain four hours
7:08I think that expectation really sends us
7:10down the wrong track sometimes what your
7:12brain does is it just figures out what
7:14stages of sleep that you were missing
7:16that it really needs you at that point
7:18in time to have the most and it will
7:20increase those in your next night's
7:22sleep so the the crazy thing is is that
7:25sometimes having a poor night can
7:26actually improve the uh efficiency and
7:30the quality of your sleep but only if
7:32you're being fairly consistent you've
7:34got a fairly consistent Baseline in your
7:36behavior um and and so basically I guess
7:39what I'm trying to say is that if you
7:41keep your sleep baseline or your sleep
7:43muscle as I like to call it strong by
7:45some of these very key Concepts it will
7:48be a lot harder because you'll have
7:50quite a strong sleep Drive it'll be a
7:52lot harder for your sleep to be
7:54interrupted sometimes your sleep's going
7:55to be interrupted and we have to accept
7:57that that's okay but it will be a lot
7:59harder for it to happen but we don't
8:01like thinking that proactively what we
8:03want to think about is I keep waking up
8:04at 2:30 in the morning how do I stop
8:06that that is me by the way almost almost
8:08every day and everything seems like a
8:09total disaster in my entire life at 2:30
8:12in the morning that's I guess most
8:15people will say to me okay well what do
8:16I do about uh that then what Aid do I do
8:19what what evening routine should I do
8:21what do I do when I wake up should I
8:23take magnesium uh extra melatonin like
8:26what what do I need to do and I'm like
8:27well are you looking after your sleep
8:30mechanisms first of all and if the
8:32answer is yes and they're still having
8:34these problems then actually instead of
8:36all that Tech and all those AIDS we
8:38would go down some a route of sleep
8:40retraining which we can talk about which
8:42is entirely different um but uh I would
8:46never I mean it's a bit like the
8:48athletes 1 to 2% all that stuff that
8:50people want me to tell them is going to
8:52make not very much difference even if
8:54they are evidence-based which most of
8:56them are not they probably won't make
8:58that much difference if you are not
9:00looking after those sleep mechanisms
9:02because your your your Baseline sleep is
9:05so weak that there's nothing there's no
9:08strength there there's nothing to work
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10:172025 what are the things that we're all
10:20obsessing about that you actually can
10:22tell us don't make a huge difference to
10:23our sleep even if you have something
10:25like chronic pain or stress or a new
10:28medication that has woken you up it's
10:30very likely that because of the way that
10:33we have been I guess taught about sleep
10:36or how it all sort of worrying about
10:37sleep now usually the problem is is that
10:41we start overw worrying about it we
10:44start changing our behaviors according
10:46to what we think might be logical in
10:48sleep so we move away from our usual
10:51sleep weight Cycles we might start lying
10:53in we might start going to bed early um
10:56you might start counseling things that
10:57you would usually do during your day
10:59because now you're hyperfocused on
11:00trying to sort your sleep out and
11:02actually that leads to behaviors which
11:04don't actually affect your homeostatic
11:06sleep drive or your Cadian Rhythm and it
11:09makes the problem worse so even in
11:12conditions that are very Medical in
11:14chronic Sleep Disorders like insomnia
11:16that are literally sometimes caused by
11:18another medical condition even where a
11:21lot of doctors are getting it wrong is
11:22thinking oh that's the primary cause we
11:25should stick to that and lots of people
11:27really resonate with this when they hear
11:28it because they'll be like oh my God
11:29that makes so much sense I've literally
11:31been trying to focus on uh fixing my
11:35chronic pain because I think that is why
11:37my sleep is so poor when actually I
11:39would I would say I like to call it a
11:41bit of reverse engineering where you
11:42actually have to go actually am I
11:44looking after my homeostatic sleep drive
11:46and my Cadian Rhythm what are the basic
11:48simple behaviors I could be doing here
11:50am I still doing those because likely
11:53those are the things that need to be
11:55strong and we need are those babies
11:57apart from just getting up at the same
11:58time every day so um and when we say
12:01that just remember I don't expect people
12:02to do this reg like super perfectly but
12:06a lot of people push back and we'll say
12:07well I've got kids D D D D and I'm like
12:09I get it but you probably could be a bit
12:11more consistent than you're currently
12:12being especially if you're that person
12:14who lies in at the weekend every weekend
12:17for excessive time well that messes it
12:19up I love a weekend so and also I assume
12:23if I line more at the weekends I'm kind
12:24of making up for a week of hard work and
12:26a lack of sleep so if you think about
12:30it's it's like a perpetuating problem so
12:32when you ly in at the weekends you're
12:33not really solving anything you're
12:34always going to have to do that whereas
12:36if actually just started regulating your
12:38get up time more often than you didn't
12:40as much as possible what you would
12:42probably notice is that you probably
12:43wouldn't need the LI in and I also think
12:46the line has been kind of perpetuated by
12:49bed companies and and and people who
12:51want to sell you lying in bed longer and
12:54that lying in is a luxury I think it's
12:56crazy that we think that the people that
12:57can get up and feel good in the morning
13:00and I am one of them by the way I
13:01definitely do this um are crazy that
13:05they must not have children they must
13:06not um have all the stress that I have
13:09no it's because they're regulating sleep
13:11is all about the timing of of of when
13:13you do a very specific things and so you
13:17will naturally feel better even if you
13:20haven't had a good night because your
13:22sleep Baseline is strong and your
13:23behaviors are quite strong in that area
13:26you'll you'll notice that even when you
13:28do have a bad night you will still feel
13:30better than the person who doesn't do
13:32this even when they've when you've had a
13:34bad night um that night so if that makes
13:38sense do we you tell us about the Sleep
13:40mechanisms then what is it that we need
13:41to be focusing on so um so like I said
13:45those key sleep mechanisms are your hom
13:47staus sleep drive in that 24-hour cycle
13:49that you you're on whether you like it
13:50or not your your sleep that's how how it
13:52works um so what could you do so first
13:55thing is yes it's that get up time the
13:57second thing is the most one of the most
13:59well the most influential external um
14:03sort of uh influence on that 24-hour
14:06cycle is light so unfortunately since
14:09the Industrial Revolution we're now sort
14:11of working at times where you don't
14:13always have light so what you've got to
14:16think now is okay how can I add in light
14:18into my morning so what light does is it
14:21really helps remind your brain that you
14:24need to be awake we're dial creatures
14:26not nocturnal and what that means is
14:29like plants we really react to the light
14:32um so just exposing yourself and it can
14:34be artificial yes it's not as good as
14:36natural but we you know we can't help
14:38that now we need to sometimes get
14:40artificial light so just adding bright
14:43light to your morning will instantly
14:45make you feel more awake I mean I was
14:49very lucky when I first started my
14:50career I uh did a lot of studies I I
14:52worked back at Harvard Medical School
14:55and we were doing things like depriving
14:57people of sleep all night and exposing
14:59using them to Bright Light in the
15:00morning now I'm not saying you can
15:02negate the effects of of uh sleep
15:04deprivation but you absolutely can prove
15:08that we're on this weird cycle that if
15:10you just do the right things at the
15:12right time your body remembers oh yeah
15:15it's 7 in the morning she wants to feel
15:17awake she doesn't want to feel lethargic
15:19the act of lying in interestingly and
15:22not getting that light and movement is
15:24the same it can really help you reduce
15:26fatigue and remind the brain that it's
15:27supposed to be away
15:29the act of lying in actually perpetuates
15:31the problem because your body doesn't
15:33know that you're awake essentially even
15:35if you're not sleeping let's just say
15:37you're just lying there because you
15:38can't be bothered to get up you actually
15:40are um sort of sort of reinforcing that
15:43idea that horrible lethargic um inertia
15:47that we get where we're like oh I just
15:49don't want to start my day we think it's
15:51purely about what night sleep we just
15:54had it's not it's much more to do with
15:57your behavior first thing your body
15:59remembers it let's just say 10 like one
16:02time out of 10 you didn't do this your
16:05body would still remember oh but usually
16:07she's up by now she's got light going
16:09and she's moving and so you'll even
16:11notice then that you are sort of
16:13naturally waking up and feeling all
16:15right um and it's all because of your
16:18your usual consistent getup time when
16:20you can you got your light exposure as
16:22much as you could and you moved your
16:24body so those key things doing those in
16:27the morning there's so much more
16:29powerful than uh any kind of evening
16:33routine and I'm not just saying this
16:35from a scientific perspective I have
16:37treated so many chronic insomniacs in in
16:41uh the last 20 years and it's always the
16:44same those fundamental things aren't in
16:46place I don't I'm not saying that this
16:47will fix a sleep disorder by the way
16:49there needs to be more that's done but
16:50this is always where you start and so if
16:53you want to avoid it this is also what
16:56you need to do and that's why in the
16:58last few years because I I've literally
17:00just spent my whole entire time fixing
17:02chronic sleep problems I've realized
17:04that actually I need to move more into
17:07okay well how do we help people
17:08proactively avoid these problems because
17:11actually what I'm seeing in the Sleep
17:13industry and the field right now is just
17:15a lot of scary noise which is
17:17frightening people and guess what
17:19anxiety does it makes your sleep worse
17:22so it's not working so what are we
17:23hearing and seeing that gets your
17:25heckles up winds you up makes you
17:26annoyed um I guess the idea that we are
17:30all supposed to be getting more sleep
17:32everyone actually needs a different
17:34amount of sleep so there's eight hours
17:36is it is that a myth 8 hours a night
17:38yeah it is pretty much a myth and even
17:40if you are genetically an8 hour sleeper
17:43there is absolutely no way in this life
17:46that you're going to get it every night
17:48and you don't need to worry about that
17:50you really don't I think that we've gone
17:52far to I'm not saying we don't need to
17:54worry about sleep debt it's just quite
17:56hard to accumulate over time quite a lot
17:59of sleep debt if you think about it and
18:01and we see this in the studies if you
18:03try to keep yourself up for a really
18:05long period of time you will notice that
18:07your eyelids will start getting heavy
18:08and you can't do it it's just that we
18:11get it so mixed up we we believe that
18:13every night should be exactly the same
18:15so we're always look you know we sort of
18:16get anxious really quickly about what we
18:19think is sleep deprivation and I'm like
18:21your sleep doesn't work like that though
18:23it's more like a computer that looks at
18:25Trends over time so it's always adapting
18:27itself and ing what uh percentage of the
18:30sleep stages for example you get in any
18:33given night based on what you had the
18:35night before and it's also much more
18:37related to your your patterns of
18:39behavior over time rather than what you
18:41did last night and what you're going to
18:43do tonight and then that's going to make
18:44this huge impact on your sleep no no no
18:46you've got to be consistent over time
18:48with the right behaviors so I guess what
18:51I I I'm most upset about is when
18:54companies for example will say you can
18:57do this and it's going to fix your sleep
18:59when often what they're saying is you've
19:01only got to do this or start taking it
19:03once and it will probably improve what
19:06you're doing it will improve your sleep
19:08it it's just not all try this technique
19:10and then suddenly your sleep will
19:12suddenly improve that night so I guess
19:13it's this
19:14reactive um idea in most solutions out
19:19there and also if it sounds too good to
19:22be true unfortunately with sleep it
19:23absolutely is it is a physiological
19:25process your body is smart your brain is
19:28intelligent just cuz you did something
19:29new once or twice it's not going to
19:32listen to you it does not trust you it
19:34knows your behavior is unpredictable so
19:36it's going to wait till you do something
19:38quite consistently before it adapts and
19:41then it will if you're doing the right
19:43behaviors but yeah I just see a lot of
19:46this reactive um you know if you do this
19:48then your sleep's going to get better
19:50and and again the idea that I mean you
19:53just look at any of it and think okay
19:54well how does that affect my drive how
19:56does that affect that 24-hour cycle and
19:58if you can't get them to explain that to
20:01you then likely it's going to give you
20:03the athletes 1 to 2% instead of the 30
20:06to 60% that most people are looking for
20:08when they're looking for an improvement
20:10in their sleep so you flipped it on the
20:13head the idea of we should be focusing
20:14more on what we do when we get up rather
20:17than when we go to bed but is there
20:19anything we can be doing in our bedtime
20:21routines that do facilitate I think
20:24again if you think of this 24-hour cycle
20:26that we're on your body does need c
20:28anchor points to understand what you
20:30want it to do because it it does have
20:33external influences so one of them being
20:35light for example you want lots of
20:37bright light in the morning and fairly
20:39consistent light throughout the day
20:41which most of us just don't get it's all
20:43over the place but then in the evening
20:45you actually want that to be reduced
20:46down to help your body sort of get the
20:49signs that it knows that you wanted to
20:51start feeling sleepy tied it wants you
20:53you it wants you or you want it to uh
20:56start that physiological process of
20:58winding down so light's a really big one
21:01that doesn't mean we all need to be sat
21:03in the dark I feel like people take this
21:04out of context like just make sure that
21:07in you know there's a transition like it
21:09there's definitely a transition from
21:10your day and your bright light morning
21:13to your evening being slightly I don't
21:15know like lamps rather than overhead
21:18lights and reduced brightness on screens
21:20and things like that the other thing
21:22your brain is really good out remember
21:23it's like a small puppy or a baby it's
21:25just constantly learning if you work
21:29late if you you do things on your phone
21:31or um things that your body Associates
21:35with what you do during the day it's so
21:37smart it's like oh she wants to she she
21:40wants to be she wants me to increase her
21:42cortisol and get all problem solving
21:44again because she did this she opened up
21:46Instagram during the day and she gets
21:48really stimulated by all that stuff and
21:51so you're sending these signals to the
21:52brain sort of helping it to understand
21:54that you actually don't want to start
21:55that physiological process of winding
21:57down so not a case of having like really
22:00strong I've got to do this at this time
22:02and then I've got to do this and then
22:03I've got to do that and it it's very
22:05strict you become very obsessive
22:06compulsive about it then you become
22:08super ritualistic and then you start to
22:10believe that if you don't do it right
22:12that sleep's going to go bad that's a
22:14really problem a big problem that we
22:16have at the moment but actually if you
22:18just try to have some kind of transition
22:22we often call it a buffer zone in sleep
22:23medicine where you're like well there's
22:25it's not just day and then night there
22:27has to be a bit in between that looks
22:29slightly different for you specifically
22:32I can't tell you exactly what to do some
22:33people love to meditate and relax and
22:36that really helps them calm down other
22:37people get stressed just by thinking of
22:39those prospects so it's got to be
22:41something that you're happy with that
22:44you feel content doing that's not the
22:46same as your daytime most of the time
22:49you can't be like this all the time
22:50you've still got to enjoy yourself
22:51sometimes you have to sacrifice sleep in
22:54order to um do the other uh you know
22:57components that your body really needs
22:59like socialize and and things that make
23:01you happy and help with your mental
23:03health so sleep also can't be the be all
23:06and endle here I hope that's not coming
23:07across in what I'm saying because it
23:09certainly shouldn't it's just one
23:11component which by the way will always
23:13be there for you so no matter what you
23:14think you're doing to control it to a
23:16certain degree you don't really need to
23:18worry it's actually one of the things
23:19that you can think well I was doing it
23:21before I started worrying and I'll do it
23:22after I start started weing so there's
23:25an area here that I still find it hard
23:27to get my head around and it back to a
23:28lot of the research so the research has
23:31shown that short sleep is linked to an
23:33increase in mortality as much as it's
23:36about short sleep the real key thing
23:37there is quality of sleep has a much
23:39stronger impact research from the
23:41University of San Francisco indicates
23:43that poor sleep in your 40s accelerates
23:45brain aging with noticeable effects
23:47especially in your 50s the Journal of
23:50epidemiology and Community founding
23:52consistent sleep schedules can increase
23:54the risk of cardiovascular events by 26%
23:57regardless of of sleep
23:59duration so what I don't yet understand
24:02is why when I'm asleep is it improving
24:05my brain improving my heart improving my
24:07whole cardiovascular system preventing
24:09me from getting dementia making me less
24:12obese I keep being told go get more
24:14sleep to improve your overall health but
24:16I don't understand what happens when I
24:17am asleep that does all that so when we
24:20sleep we're not actually in this passive
24:22state that historically that's what we
24:24thought before sort of 100 years ago
24:26when we actually realized that sleep is
24:28this thing that we and and there's some
24:29things happening in it we just thought
24:32it was this passive State like a mini
24:33death and actually it wasn't really
24:35worth studying so nobody really cared
24:38about it and there was more important
24:39things like you know creating
24:40antibiotics at the time which you know
24:42was were going to help us survive um so
24:45yeah we weren't really studying it we
24:46didn't really understand it but actually
24:49now that technology has improved and we
24:51are able to study sleep we do notice
24:53that there's actually a lot going on in
24:55your sleep it's not this passive state
24:58so there are many things I mean we will
25:00we could be here all day talking about
25:02so many of the different things like um
25:04your inflammatory response which you
25:06know you're creating cyto so proteins in
25:08your sleep to help with your
25:09inflammatory response to help you fight
25:11disease um and that happens when you're
25:14asleep yeah and then you've got things
25:16like um when you go to the gym and you
25:18tear your muscles most of that muscle
25:21repair is happening in your sleep a lot
25:23of cell restoration growth hormones it's
25:25all happening when we sleep so that's
25:28why I think we've kind of got a bit over
25:30excited and been like well the surely
25:33then the more you get the better but
25:35actually you could be sleeping 10 hours
25:37a night and the the Sleep be so poor
25:41that you're actually better off sleeping
25:43a lot less sleep with a much higher
25:45quality and your body will get so much
25:47more out of it I mean you said a bunch
25:50of things just then which were all quite
25:51different one thing that I still really
25:53struggle with in the literature is you
25:56know lots of people quoting a lot of
25:57studies saying if you get less sleep
26:00it's bad but actually there's not when I
26:03look at the research it's really hard to
26:05find differentiation between just a
26:07genetically short sleeper which there
26:09are by the way we do not all sleep at
26:12the same times they might be less of us
26:14that are genetically really short
26:16sleepers but that we do exist um and if
26:20you just are a genetically short sleeper
26:22but you have no problems with the
26:23quality of your sleep those poor
26:26outcomes aren't there we need more
26:28research on this by the way we really do
26:30but I think that's really confusing
26:32people because they're just thinking
26:33duration is the answer I just need to
26:36always get more sleep but I mean even if
26:39that was the case okay even if if we
26:41categorically could say that we all just
26:44need more sleep which we can't by the
26:46way because there it's even when we ask
26:49and we we do metrics for surveys and
26:52things nobody's using the same metrics
26:54like what are you asking about here like
26:56how much how many hours they get or are
26:57you asking about the quality how do you
26:59work out what good quality is versus
27:02we're really bad at talking about you
27:03know the duration of sleep we get we're
27:06all really bad here nobody is very good
27:08at predicting how much sleep they get so
27:10even if it was completely true that we
27:13you know you it was just all about
27:15duration how many people I mean I'm
27:18asking the audience here when when you
27:20found out that this was what you needed
27:22to do have actually been able to improve
27:24their sleep just by the understanding
27:26okay it's all about duration because
27:28what happens is when you think oh it's
27:30just about duration is you go to bed
27:32earlier and what happens when you go to
27:34bed earlier when you're not sleepy
27:35because you're not looking after your
27:37sleep drive you can't sleep you can't
27:38sleep you get stressed about yeah and
27:41then you get the I like to call them the
27:43Sleep anxiety Gremlins which have two
27:45weapons one is that they literally
27:47change your brain chemistry straight
27:48away which means that they push sleep
27:51away they literally can increase your
27:52cortisol how are they doing that well
27:55because when you start getting stressed
27:56your heart rate gets elevated and your
27:58temperature goes up and that is exactly
28:00the opposite of what you what you want
28:02your body to be doing at that point so
28:04just your beliefs have caused you to
28:07have the Sleep anxiety Gremlins come out
28:08with their weapons and the second weapon
28:10is they alter your behavior load so you
28:14you know that's when you start thinking
28:16oh my God I need to research how do I
28:17sleep better and that's when you start
28:19taking all the supplements and uh doing
28:21all the sleep rituals and then suddenly
28:23you're obsessed with doing all the sleep
28:24rituals and your sleep isn't getting any
28:26better it's actually getting worse and
28:28you're getting more and more anxious and
28:29now suddenly not only do you have an
28:31ingrained sleep problem because it's
28:32been over 3 months now but you also have
28:35sleep anxiety Gremlin so you have two
28:37problems they're not the same you can
28:38have sleep anxiety and no sleep problems
28:41and you can get sleep problems and no
28:43sleep anxiety and that's when people
28:46come to see people like me um and I have
28:48to break all this away and like take
28:51away all these massive components
28:52because insomnia isn't just one thing
28:54it's all of these things being built up
28:56over time
28:58here's the truth okay High performers
29:00don't do more they just work smarter
29:03it's a myth I want to debunk that high
29:05performance means chasing hacks
29:06squeezing in working harder than
29:08everybody else it's not true the best
29:11performers just simplify they Master the
29:14fundamentals we call it worldclass
29:15Basics on high performance and in many
29:18ways I've learned this through trial and
29:19error but also through the conversations
29:20that we've had on this show and one area
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29:57for 20 % off your first order what would
30:01you do if I came to you and said I've
30:02got a problem with sleeping is there
30:04anything that you would offer in a
30:05clinic that people could do on their own
30:07home um yeah so uh what we do in clinic
30:10is usually based in the most evidence
30:12Bas this is the gold standard when you
30:14when you think you've got something like
30:16chronic insomnia and we can describe
30:18what poor sleep is and what poor sleep
30:20is and things like that um is something
30:22called cognitive behavioral therapy for
30:23insomnia which is a mouthful or cbti for
30:26short and I hate it being called this
30:28because people just say oh I've tried
30:29CBT for depression anxiety all the other
30:32things and it didn't work for me it's
30:33better in my head to call it sleep
30:35retraining because then people
30:37automatically kind of understand that
30:39one whatever you're about to do is
30:41probably something to do with their
30:42behavior it's going to take them time
30:44they're probably going to have to sit in
30:45a bit of discomfort that's kind of what
30:47we're saying but essentially what is it
30:49well it's a it's a few things one is
30:52that you already have from childhood so
30:55many sort of um uh things that you think
30:58are fact about sleep that are wrong that
31:00we have to change so it always starts
31:02with some sleep education so in a way
31:04what we're doing today is kind of like
31:06an initial start to that you have to
31:08understand how sleep works if you want
31:10to fix it then what we've got to do is
31:12we've got to start getting you on the
31:14right Behavior so we got to build the
31:15foundations a bit like when you're
31:16building a house you got to start with
31:18the foundations and that's things like
31:20getting up at the same time like
31:22exposure movement going to bed when
31:23you're actually sleepy tired even if
31:26it's late to start with because it won't
31:28be eventually if you're getting up and
31:29being consistent with that morning
31:31routine um and a few other key things
31:34and we do that over time we need to
31:36teach you that your behavior has to be
31:39consistent it doesn't matter what you're
31:40noticing about your sleep because
31:41everyone wants it reactively don't they
31:43they want it yesterday or they want to
31:45see that whatever they do today affects
31:47their sleep tomorrow no no no it's going
31:49to take a while and then what we do um
31:52after a bit of repetition and really
31:53helping you to really get rid of those
31:55beliefs you have about sleep and trying
31:57to improve them is we actually go
31:59through something called Sleep
32:01restriction therapy so sleep restriction
32:03therapy might sound very
32:05counterintuitive but essentially most
32:07people who have very broken sleep or
32:09really uh what they feel is a low sleep
32:12duration they're spending quite a lot of
32:14time in bed or at least they might not
32:16think they're spending a lot of time in
32:17bed but the time they're spending in bed
32:19is there's a lot less time sleeping in
32:21it so so there's a huge discrepancy
32:24between the how much time I'm spending
32:26in bed and how much actual sleep am I
32:28getting and what we need to do is we
32:31need to move those closer together now
32:33what most people do is they go okay in
32:35order to move them closer together I'll
32:37increase my bedtime in order to try to
32:40increase how much sleep I'm getting but
32:42here's the thing even if that works for
32:44you you won't actually improve your
32:47sleep condition because what will happen
32:49is oh let's just say you spend 11 hours
32:52in bed you might get Snippets of extra
32:54sleep but the quality will be so poor
32:56and it will be over such a long period
32:58of time well now you're dipping into
32:59your 24-hour cycle and part of that is
33:01wake time your body's going to get
33:03really confused hang on when do you want
33:04me to eat now when do you want me to
33:06have good moods like I don't know what
33:07you want from me and your sleep
33:09certainly isn't going to be better so
33:11actually reducing how many gaps you have
33:13in your sleep is a better idea it just
33:17sounds a bit scary to start with because
33:18you're like well if I'm restricting my
33:21bedtime what happens if I have a really
33:23bad night and I sleep even less and that
33:26may happen to you in the short term and
33:29it's nothing to worry about over time
33:31what would happen is you would
33:32eventually notice that as long as you're
33:34not sleeping at any other time you'll
33:36notice your sleep Drive feels a lot
33:38stronger you will be tired during the
33:40day more and I don't mean that horrible
33:42fatigue you get from broken sleep I mean
33:43you'll be lovely luxuriously sleepy
33:46tired like your eyes dropping that
33:48lovely feeling but what you've got to do
33:50is avoid napping which is the really
33:52exciting B because you're like oh my God
33:53I haven't felt like this in 20 years and
33:55I'm like no please don't do it because
33:57we're building this up on purpose to
33:59help you to fill in the gaps at night
34:01time but then we're not going to keep
34:03you there we're going to slowly
34:04incrementally increase your time in bed
34:08out because we obviously know that you
34:11also might need a bit of extra sleep but
34:14you know what the interesting thing is
34:15is that a lot of people find that when
34:16they do that kind of therapy the quality
34:18of their sleep shoots up and they
34:20suddenly realize that actually the
34:22duration they were after might not be
34:23needed after all in a lot of people it's
34:26quality and duration that gets in
34:27increased but I just think that's so
34:29interesting because everyone's like well
34:31I S I used to get 8 hours when I was 21
34:33and I'm like well I think your
34:35perception now that you've got broken
34:36sleep is probably very different because
34:37back then you probably weren't looking
34:39at it quite as much as you are now so
34:41that perception is completely warped but
34:43also it's very likely you're going to
34:45get what you needed when you were 21
34:46because you're older now and sleep
34:48changes with age it changes with
34:50hormones it changes with every single
34:52thing you go through and it's okay
34:54because sleep can adapt that way it is
34:57tricky to do on your own I would say um
35:00I created a company called re sleep
35:02which was trying to help this kind of
35:04training to become more accessible to
35:07everybody without them all having to
35:08come to a sleep expert and what we
35:10recognize very early on is that even
35:13though you can create a bunch of videos
35:15and uh make it accessible online make it
35:17cheaper actually what we realize is you
35:19still need sleep experts and you still
35:21need people to talk to and help you
35:23because one you're a super unique person
35:26and two asking someone to restrict their
35:28bedtime with all these beliefs in the
35:30background from 20 or 30 years ago um is
35:33quite tough to do so um we even realize
35:37that you know some things you do need
35:39that extra support with especially when
35:40you've had it for quite a long time um
35:44and coming back to the idea that I've
35:47tried to actually move a not move away I
35:49still fix a lot of sleep problems but
35:51now I'm trying to help people avoid them
35:54I recently created something called uh
35:56with BBC Maestro just called the sleep
35:57better of course and the whole point of
35:59that is to give someone like a baseline
36:01like okay okay okay it's really noisy
36:03out there I'm really stressed I don't
36:05know what to do do I have a sleep
36:07disorder or actually is this just
36:08something I can improve at home um and
36:11then what do I need to do so I created
36:13this to be like a bit of a almost like a
36:15couple of week intervention that you can
36:17do and either it's going to
36:19significantly improve and it will
36:21significantly improve the majority of
36:23people's sleep by getting rid of all the
36:25noise getting them to do some really
36:26simple key things and helping them to
36:28understand about sleep better um but
36:30it's also a bit of like a screening tool
36:32because I think people are so confused
36:34about do I actually have a sleep problem
36:36or don't I so basically what that course
36:40does is it essentially gets you to do
36:43the foundations and then also changes
36:45your expectations about what you you
36:47think your sleep should be and if after
36:50all of that you still find you're having
36:52a sleep problem then perhaps yes you
36:54might have a chronic sleep disorder cuz
36:57nobody really understands you know what
36:58is good sleep and what is poor poor
37:00sleep I would say that the definition of
37:04a good sleeper for example is somebody
37:07that more often than not it can't be all
37:10the time by the way more often than not
37:12they are wake up they're waking up and
37:13they're feeling all right I do not mean
37:16that they're waking up feeling euphoric
37:17because a lot of people go I know what a
37:19good night's sleep is because when I
37:20have it I feel amazing and I'm like no
37:22no no that's a catch-up sleep that's why
37:24you're euphoric your body did that to
37:26you it increased all the brilliant
37:27stages it did things that we can't do
37:30and now you're feeling amazing why do we
37:32have those cuz I bloody love them when I
37:34get them by the way and because because
37:37uh you know in the short term you know
37:39someone's woken you up in the night or
37:41maybe consistently you got sick for a
37:43while and your body's good at
37:44accumulating it in a way that will help
37:47you as soon as it can as soon as it's
37:48got over that particular sort of um I
37:51guess uh I don't know fixing stage like
37:54when your poorly your body's in a
37:56different mode it's trying to heal you
37:58as soon as you get out of that and
37:59you're able to suddenly be a bit more
38:01consistent with your sleep behaviors it
38:03can use that sleep debt to it get your
38:06sleep back on track but only if you're
38:09not sleeping at random times of the day
38:11if you are getting up you're not lying
38:12in all the time what you're doing is
38:14you're literally taking away all that
38:16lovely sleep debt that your body wants
38:18to use to get you back on track because
38:21you're you're just trying to get rid of
38:22the Sleep debt anywhere you can any time
38:24you can and that actually is really
38:27going to help you unfortunately get a
38:29chronic sleep problem but going back to
38:32you know what is what is a good sleeper
38:34it's mostly feeling like you are all
38:37right most me mornings to get up and do
38:39your day you don't worry about your
38:41sleep sometimes you you know yes your
38:44your evening or your bedtime seems
38:46fairly predictable but sometimes you're
38:48not sleepy at the same time because
38:51there are so many things on your life
38:52that are affecting your sleep and you
38:54know sometimes you have to make little
38:56sacrifices so so yes sometimes you don't
38:58get to sleep but then because you didn't
39:00go to sleep till late because you
39:02weren't sleepy yet you didn't force
39:03yourself to spend time in bed getting
39:05anxious which only pushes sleep away you
39:08realized that it was quality over
39:09quantity so yeah you got less sleep but
39:12you're not worried about it the quality
39:13was fairly all right and sometimes the
39:15quality is not going to be great but
39:16because you're not doing all these
39:18compensatory things that you think are
39:20going to help your sleep in general your
39:22sleep just flows with you but I think a
39:25good sleeper is somebody who actually
39:27just doesn't think about sleep that much
39:29and effectively just feels all right
39:31most of the time and looking at really
39:35chronic poor sleep because you are going
39:36to have you know shortterm you know
39:39under three months a few weeks of not
39:41good sleep especially if you're going
39:43through something that's totally normal
39:44you do not need to worry that's your
39:46sleep EB and flowing and trying to
39:48support you but if it's going on longer
39:50than that so I would say that someone
39:52who really probably needs a bit of help
39:54is either physiologically they are
39:57finding their sleep is broken at night
39:59to the point where it's affecting their
40:01day so this is really important you
40:03might have breaks in your sleep does is
40:05anything to worry about not necessarily
40:08do you find that your day is affected
40:10how's how is your life around your sleep
40:12do you think about it loads because
40:13there's a sole other problem remember of
40:15sleep anxiety have you just got a really
40:17big problem with sleep anxiety which you
40:18can also get support for so I think
40:22after 3 months of having something which
40:24e has either caused you to maybe four
40:26nights out out or more out of seven you
40:29are having quite broken sleep what does
40:31that look like well it could be that you
40:33are really struggling to get to sleep
40:35and that's not something you've had
40:36before and it's been longer than a few
40:37months now or you don't have a problem
40:39getting to sleep but you can't maintain
40:41your sleep you keep waking up or the
40:43sleep is really light and actually this
40:45is actually really starting to impact
40:47your day now so it's not just broken
40:49sleep it has to be impacting you in
40:51order for it to be an issue but the
40:53issue now is that I'm starting to see
40:55that as soon as sleep breaks down people
40:57are so anxious about it that they'll say
40:58it really is impacting me and I'm like
41:00but is it though is it really because it
41:02probably will sort itself out because
41:04it's so
41:05flipping telling us if you're not have
41:07sleep there's a problem therefore we
41:09naturally assume if you're not sleeping
41:1110:30 till 6:30 every single day
41:13perfectly you must have a problem do you
41:15know what the first thing I always say
41:16to people who are like okay as soon as I
41:18get a sleep problem what do I do and I'm
41:19like nothing do nothing just continue
41:23with your behavior just continue
41:24everything you're doing and just see if
41:26it sorts itself fou because likely it
41:28will if you cannot get increasingly
41:31worried about your sleep because that is
41:32another component if you just completely
41:34get anxious about that then it's not
41:36going to work but really we have to be
41:39giving the advice that in the first
41:41instance because your sleep is so
41:43adaptable it makes sense that sometimes
41:46it's going to be a bit variable and you
41:48have to be okay with that and it will go
41:50back to normal if it doesn't go back to
41:52normal and usually that's because we've
41:54changed our behavior and we started
41:55getting anxious about it but some
41:57sometimes it can be because you have a
41:58chronic bladder condition and it's
41:59waking you up exactly four times every
42:01night and now your brain's learn a new
42:03pattern well there is something you can
42:05do about that but you got to go into a
42:06bit of retraining and it doesn't matter
42:08if you still got that chronic condition
42:10we can still make sure the quality of
42:11your sleep the Sleep Baseline is a lot
42:13better even with your chronic condition
42:16it just might not look like when you
42:17were 25 and you didn't have your chronic
42:19condition we've got lots of questions
42:22from members of the high performance
42:23audience and we'd like to go through a
42:24few of them if we can cuz I think this
42:26is helpful for people we've got all
42:27kinds of questions brewing in their
42:29heads
42:31so so we've had a a question here saying
42:34I love to nap to catch up on sleeping
42:36just to feel better is that okay so uh
42:39napping is a really controversial topic
42:41I think now um so yes we know that um
42:44sleep in general is obviously really
42:46quite good for us okay but you can't
42:49really nap if you don't need to okay so
42:52if you find that you're having to nap
42:55quite
42:55regularly and that has something that's
42:58something that's changed for you and you
43:00have to do that in order to recover
43:03something's going on so either your
43:05sleep at night is disrupted maybe it's
43:07environmental maybe there's a baby um or
43:11maybe uh maybe you've got something
43:13wrong with your sleep architecture so
43:15there's other Sleep Disorders like sleep
43:17apnea which can affect your breathing at
43:19night they're not going to help you're
43:21not going to sort of drop down dead at
43:23any point because your brain's so smart
43:26that it's just constantly trying to get
43:27you to breathe again which involves you
43:30uh waking into lighter stages of sleep
43:32but the problem with that is that you
43:33feel absolutely exhausted in the morning
43:36and during the day so you could have had
43:3710 hours of sleep but you still feel
43:39like you need more sleep to catch up so
43:41in that in that instance excessively
43:44napping in order to feel okay is
43:46actually telling us that there's a
43:48problem so usually it's the length of
43:51the Naps or how often you have to have
43:53them that are really helping us to
43:54understand okay is there's something
43:55going on here but then you could
43:57probably and you can absolutely train
43:59yourself to nap more during the day as
44:02long as you're happy that your
44:03expectations of your sleep at night need
44:05to change because your sleep at night
44:06will lightly need to change because you
44:08can't just oversleep it's it's not a
44:10thing so I love a Sunday cuddle on the
44:11sofa with my wife a movie on kids watch
44:13the movie and you might have a snooze we
44:14have a nap like that's fine right it's
44:16it's absolutely fine but probably the
44:19fact that you can do that on a Sunday
44:20shows some kind of debt somewhere but
44:23absolutely if it's not happening too
44:25often and it's something you really Love
44:27and Enjoy it's not going to affect you I
44:29think it's just all about expectations
44:30like I love having a little nap every
44:32now and again I don't use it as if I
44:35used it as a compensatory tool all the
44:36time I would end up getting chronic
44:38insomnia because it would teach my brain
44:40that I didn't want to sleep the same at
44:42night time but if it's every now and
44:44again especially if your sleep Baseline
44:46in general is quite strong then sleep
44:48debt will probably correct itself quite
44:50quickly it's when your Baseline is all
44:52over the place and your sleep is all
44:54over the place but then you still expect
44:56this nap to you're so interesting cuz
44:58I'm I'm 47 you're 48 49 49 have you ever
45:03considered our age together been on the
45:05earth for a century that having a nap
45:08actually damages your sleep in the night
45:10no I've never cuz it's sort you can't
45:12imagine that there's a like I don't know
45:14it does it's not it's not necessary like
45:17I don't want everyone to think oh my God
45:19if I have a nap it's going to damage my
45:20sleep at night but if you consistently
45:22did it loads and you didn't change your
45:25expectations of what happens to you at
45:26night cuz some people will be listening
45:28they'll be like well I've had a nap ever
45:29since I was young and I'm like yes but
45:31that shows me that probably you have a
45:33very sort of like what you think is
45:35right with your sleep which it probably
45:37is um is a very different expectation
45:40than someone else might have so if you
45:42had a 20- minute nap in the day and
45:44you're an 8 Hour sleeper um maybe if you
45:47weren't having that nap during the day
45:49you might be an 8 hour and 20 minute
45:50sleeper for example but because you've
45:52never experienced that you your
45:54expectations are different so I think
45:56it's it's tricky it's a nuanced area I'm
45:59not even super confident it's just that
46:01I've been doing this for so long now
46:03that even with seeing so many different
46:05wonderful unique people it's always a
46:08similar thing that's going on even when
46:10I'm treating like um a a premier league
46:12footballer for example um I will always
46:15start with these like uh basic
46:19fundamental uh sleep practices because
46:21when I talk to them they're still their
46:23doctors are still just giving them
46:24sleeping pills and sleeping aids and all
46:26these things and I'm like well yeah
46:27obviously you're not sleeping has anyone
46:29actually talked to you about these
46:30things over here the way your sleep
46:32actually works it's just so fascinating
46:35we're all the same and yet we're all so
46:37unique another another question that's
46:40coming from our audience Steph is um
46:42about those sleep Gremlins what
46:45techniques have you identified that help
46:47people push those Gremlins away so sleep
46:51anxiety I in my head the way I've looked
46:53at it over the years is very similar to
46:55having an actual brok can sleep on
46:57remember they're two separate things
46:58they definitely affect each other but
47:00they're two separate things um it's not
47:03just one thing that's going to get you
47:05over those sleep anxiety Gremlins okay
47:08so first of all you do need to
47:11understand where where is this anxiety
47:13coming from what beliefs do you hold
47:15about your sleep but then if you just
47:19try to change that person's beliefs
47:21because they've had them for 20 years
47:23it's probably you're probably not going
47:24to be able to do it right just cuz I
47:26tell well that's not how your sleep
47:28Works their anxiety doesn't just
47:29suddenly go away but it's a start right
47:32and then what I do is I do get them to
47:34do some things around their sleep that I
47:36know will provide them with some
47:37evidence that what they think about
47:40their sleep is not true if I you know
47:42I'm not going to sleep tonight I already
47:43know I'm not going to sleep tonight that
47:45kind of thing right so there's a lot of
47:47work around different things and you can
47:50do things very reactive things like
47:52trying to be uh more relaxed and doing
47:55relaxation exercises there's something
47:57called the paradoxical intention
47:58technique where you do exactly the
48:00opposite so instead of trying to get to
48:03sleep which does not work because it has
48:05nothing to do with your homeostatic
48:06sleep pressure what you could do is you
48:08could lie in bed I always say lie in bed
48:10like a starfish look up at your ceiling
48:13at your pitch black ceiling and keep
48:15it's so hard in a pitch black room by
48:17the way to just look up and keep your
48:19eyes open and look up at your ceiling
48:21and then just gently tell yourself um
48:24you know I'm not going to go to sleep
48:25and I'm going to keep my eyes awake nice
48:27and gently and if you're the kind of
48:29person only if you're putting extra
48:31pressure on your sleep and you already
48:33have a strong sleep drive that's also
48:34really important then you will likely
48:36fall asleep by doing exactly the
48:39opposite so what I'm trying to say is
48:41that sleep anxiety is not something that
48:44there's one a one fix cure all there's
48:46when I see someone in clinic I use a
48:48combination of techniques and the only
48:50reason I do that is through trial and
48:51error through the last 20 years of you
48:53know just prescribing some a relaxation
48:55technique it's like well they've already
48:57tried that that obviously that's not
48:59going to help there's too much in the
49:01way here but one of the biggest things
49:03is just helping humans understand that
49:05if they want to see real behavioral
49:07change physiological change that they
49:09might have some sort of control over
49:11you're going to have to sit with
49:13discomfort for a while while these
49:15things take effect so a lot of people
49:17will try one thing they'll say oh well
49:19I've already tried that I often have
49:20people say I've already tried that and
49:22I'm like uh-huh and how did you do it
49:24and what else were you doing with it
49:25like and and it it's it's always this
49:27reactive oh I didn't see a a change in
49:29three days so I just stopped doing it
49:32and usually with any kind of thing
49:34behavioral change like a diet change or
49:35a movement change you probably need at
49:38least a few weeks if not months to
49:40really start to see these changes um and
49:43I think sleep anxiety is one of those
49:45things it's hard
49:47because to a degree we have to work with
49:50it so I have to get them to do certain
49:52behaviors which isn't necessarily going
49:53to get rid of that sleep anxiety or even
49:55the broken sleep in the short term and I
49:58have to have somehow help them feel so
50:00safe and secure and trusting that
50:02they're going to do that so that I can
50:04give them the evidence and slowly change
50:06their minds about what they think so
50:08this isn't this isn't a straightforward
50:11um I wish I could give you a
50:12straightforward black and white solution
50:15um but you can do it absolutely the
50:18staish technique though I'm taking that
50:19away yeah take it away you know D have
50:21sleep apnea do you yeah I was going to
50:24ask you about it but I ask noticed that
50:27um it's coincided uh I lost my dad three
50:31years ago and the sleep apnea has
50:34coincided in the last three years where
50:37and is it is it it's been diagnosed so
50:40or do you just no it's self diagnosed
50:42but I i' sort of wake up and like with
50:44the fear that I'm going to swallow my
50:45tongue okay and it'll happen three or
50:48four times a night where it's very
50:50sudden it's like that Panic so that
50:53could I mean that is often something
50:55that people feel with sleep but it's
50:57also something you can feel and not have
50:58sleep apnea at all just to let you know
51:01um one thing about sleep apnea is that
51:04most people stop breathing five times or
51:06under a night an hour sorry every night
51:10I think my doctor Google my might give
51:13it a label that it doesn't deserve no no
51:14no no but I think it's important so um
51:16we all stop breathing when we uh sleep
51:18at night for uh periods of time it's
51:21when that that becomes quite um
51:23repetitive over an hour so when we're
51:25looking at over five times an hour I
51:26mean I used to treat people that were
51:28stopping breathing like 150 times an
51:30hour and then of course that's when it
51:33really starts to have an impact on your
51:35body for example the first thing you'll
51:37notice is that you'll feel very
51:38excessively sleepy during the day and
51:40either you or someone else will notice
51:42that you keep either snoring and then
51:44sort of or gasping and then stopping and
51:46then it feels like they're dead and
51:47you're like what's going on and then
51:49suddenly that massive snort or snore
51:51will suddenly happen uh yeah but in in
51:55the night sometimes but yeah but you
51:57tiredness as well is a thing yeah so um
52:01the the most common reason behind at
52:03least obstructive sleep apnea because
52:05there are different types of apneas is
52:07usually weight gain around the neck area
52:10Okay so the other thing you could so the
52:11first thing I was thinking when you said
52:13it was when your um father passed away
52:15uh was I was thinking I wonder if you
52:17gained any extra weight not just around
52:19your neck area because you can't just
52:20gain weight around your neck area but
52:22did you gain any extra weight in in
52:24certain individuals like sleep AP runs
52:26in my family I only have to gain 5S to
52:29start snoring it doesn't necessarily
52:30mean I'm overweight yeah um and then
52:32obviously if I gained more weight I
52:34likely would very much get sleep apne
52:36because the more weight around your
52:38Airway the more likely your Airway is to
52:41collapse because your Airway when you're
52:43sleeping is very relaxed it doesn't have
52:44to be as strong and you don't need to be
52:46breathing as strongly as you are when
52:48you awake um but the problem is on a
52:50very nice relaxed Airway you're it's
52:53easier to flop it shut or to at least
52:56narrow it significantly which is often
52:58where snoring comes from because of that
53:00extra weight around the airway but is
53:02what you're describing sleep apnea I
53:04would ask you other questions like how
53:06sleepy are you during the day could you
53:08actually have a nap on a regular basis
53:11um quite easily because a lot of people
53:13feel tired but when I say okay well if I
53:15said to close your eyes and have a nap
53:17could you do it but in sleep apnea cases
53:20most likely the answer is yes could you
53:23no not really not all the time um so it
53:26could be it could be a mild version of
53:29it but you're now suddenly you've had it
53:30a few times and this was such an adverse
53:33reaction that you remembering it now and
53:35now it's become a thing where and it
53:37could be learnt where you're waking up
53:38the other thing it could be is a bit of
53:40a night terrorist type situation where
53:42you're waking up and you're you're
53:44making an assumption of what you think
53:46has happened um or your body's trying to
53:49make sense of it um but night terrors
53:51are often where we just jump up and
53:54there's some fright or something I mean
53:56that was like in the months after I'd
53:58lost my dad I had a like I would wake up
54:01Once a Night panicking that I hadn't
54:04taken some medication or I was late to
54:06get there to to help somebody like and
54:09that was like a real sense of Panic it's
54:12horrible because you're a general in
54:14surges and it just it's it's a horrific
54:16thing to happen to you in the middle of
54:17the night um genetically some of us are
54:20more uh likely to get those than others
54:22like other people in your position might
54:24have just had fragmented sleep and maybe
54:26got a bit of insomnia from grief and all
54:29the things that you go through whereas
54:31someone like you and I actually get
54:33night terrors every now and again
54:35especially when my sleep is not
54:36regulated um basically what night
54:39terrors are are when you transition
54:41between sleep
54:42stages um it's just something has
54:46disrupted that process it could be
54:49anything from something internal to
54:50something external like a lorry driving
54:52by and it can just trigger these events
54:57and making your sleep more regulated and
54:59and uh trying to improve your sleep
55:01overall can often make an improvement on
55:05those but in that particular case if it
55:07is night terrorist things like alcohol
55:09caffeine nicotine chemicals that you're
55:11putting into your body in the few hours
55:12before you go to bed are going to make
55:14an significant impact you'll notice that
55:17they'll happen more I certainly notice
55:19if I've drunk too much alcohol not at
55:21the moment but in the past um especially
55:24when I was h a student I would have
55:27night terrors um but I rarely get them
55:30now because my sleep is fairly
55:31consistent most of the time a couple
55:33more questions from people um what do I
55:36do if I I'm a regular Waker uper in the
55:39night because I think a lot of people
55:40wake up then they Panic they're not as
55:42sleep and that prevents sleep so what is
55:43your advice for people that have those
55:45regular wakeups so if you really are
55:46right at the beginning and you're not
55:48panicking uh then I suppose the answer
55:50would be nothing because it's probably
55:52it's probably just a short-term thing or
55:55could be that you do wake up once or
55:56twice a night but as long as
55:57everything's fine it's all it's there's
56:00nothing wrong don't worry if you are
56:01starting to panic that can also turn
56:03into a pattern and you can also start to
56:06get insomnia that way um so if it's
56:08happened for longer than three months
56:10then it could be that you you need to do
56:12some sort of sleep retraining as we
56:14described
56:15cbti um but if this is under three
56:18months but it is happening to you it is
56:20impacting your day is starting to stress
56:21you out um I would look at the
56:24fundamentals first so that get up time
56:26um enjoy your wake time stop worrying
56:29about your sleep because the more you
56:30worry about it the worse it will be so
56:33focus on that morning routine when you
56:35go to bed make sure that you are really
56:37sleepy tired get ready a bit before bed
56:39the act of brushing our teeth and you
56:40know being really really sleepy and then
56:42having to get ready for bed is is this
56:45kind of sort of you've you've cut the
56:48lovely process up don't do that uh get
56:50ready for bed a bit earlier doesn't have
56:52to be super early but just just a little
56:54bit earlier so that when you are feeling
56:55like you're you're nodding off you
56:58you're going to have a really strong
56:59Drive which will put you to sleep
57:00quicker and likely the quality of your
57:02sleep will be better so you want to be
57:04doing those things quite consistently
57:07for a while if you are waking up in the
57:08night in in the short term whilst you're
57:10doing this process and you're trying to
57:11see whether that's really going to
57:12improve your sleep overall um then when
57:15you wake up in the night and this still
57:17does happen to me by the way obviously
57:19like I if I have to S sit and talk to
57:21500 people in real time I will get
57:24nervous the night before so I just don't
57:26go to bed until much later and I'm just
57:28like okay 4 hours of good quality sleep
57:30is much better than tossing and turning
57:31for 7 to eight hours in bed so it's
57:34about avoiding the bedroom um and if you
57:38do wake up in the night and you really
57:40can't get back to sleep and it's
57:41starting to become a bit of a stress
57:43leave the bedroom but the problem with
57:45that is that most people have this sort
57:47of belief with that that leaving the
57:48bedroom is going to wake them up further
57:50but as long as you're still in your
57:52evening sort of head so you're not doing
57:54the things that you you know make you
57:56feel stimulated that you would do during
57:58the day the lights aren't all on you
58:00might feel sleepy again and then you can
58:01take yourself back to bed but if you
58:03don't feel sleepy again resting is the
58:05next best thing to sleep so why are we
58:07all so worried about it the the one big
58:10difference between me and most people is
58:11not all the knowledge it's literally the
58:13idea that I just don't worry when I
58:16can't sleep and that's happening right
58:17now because I'm pregnant so I get
58:19pregnancy insomnia um but I'm really not
58:22that bothered about it I know what's
58:23happening I'm growing some bones for
58:25goodness sake I can't expect my sleep to
58:26be on par absolutely and talking of
58:28worry um I have a daughter that doesn't
58:30go to sleep till about half 10 she's
58:31only 11 She lays there she doesn't go to
58:34bed that early maybe half n 10:00 time
58:36but she won't fall asleep she'll come in
58:39our bedroom a couple of times then and
58:41she likes to go to sleep listening to an
58:42audio book and eventually she'll be
58:44asleep but we cannot get her up like in
58:46the morning I need her up by about 700
58:48about 7:20 I'm dragging her out of bed
58:51is there a way of moving her how old is
58:53she again 11 um so she's just about to
58:56go into those teenage years there's a
58:58lot of a lot of listeners have probably
59:00similar age kids in this book start cuz
59:02our son our younger son is like she used
59:04to be out like a light at half eight and
59:06sleep yeah so um unfortunately for
59:09parents I don't think they're going to
59:10like this very much but um when we
59:12become teenagers we naturally do need
59:15later sleep so we have a bit more of a
59:17delayed sleep phase so it will look
59:20different to a parents sleep because
59:22naturally they probably do need to lie
59:24in and and they naturally want to go to
59:28bed a bit later and then also the sleep
59:31is longer so all the things that a
59:33parent doesn't want are there and to be
59:36honest I would say that the there is
59:40obviously huge issues with this and
59:41there's lots of controversy about when
59:43schools open and things like that
59:45because it's not really conducive to how
59:46their physiology is trying to help them
59:49um and for them to grow um but I think
59:52it's about trying although some kind of
59:54consistency is really helpful it doesn't
59:57matter what age you are some kind of
59:59consistency in what's happening with
1:00:00your behavior is good with teenagers I
1:00:03would just say that leave them to it in
1:00:06terms of let them sleep in if they need
1:00:08a bit more sleep sometimes just try and
1:00:11see if there's some kind of consistent
1:00:13even if it's actually the days that they
1:00:15don't go to school they get up at a a
1:00:17different time even if you've got two
1:00:19patterns going on try to keep those
1:00:21patterns as consistent as possible
1:00:23rather than all over the place she is
1:00:24consistent it's always about half
1:00:27it's always up
1:00:28at on the weekend it's always yeah and
1:00:31it will change again when she is older I
1:00:34think um some of the issues I see is
1:00:36when people go through that transition
1:00:38from being quite a delayed sleep phase
1:00:40sleeper uh because they're teenagers and
1:00:43then suddenly having to go to a 9-to-5
1:00:45job in their early 20s but their body
1:00:47hasn't quite caught up with them and
1:00:49that does help because it will get them
1:00:50into a routine but sometimes that's also
1:00:53when sleep problems start because it's
1:00:55all over the place and they just don't
1:00:58they don't know what to do so it's
1:00:59always about it doesn't matter when you
1:01:01get up but if you can be somehow
1:01:03consistent with it you're going to feel
1:01:05better and can you like you made a
1:01:07distinction there between you said the
1:01:09second best thing after sleep is rest
1:01:11would you tell us the difference between
1:01:13the two I mean there there's a huge
1:01:15difference I mean we absolutely need
1:01:17sleep in order to do all those things
1:01:18like I said it's not such a passive
1:01:20state but I think the reason I say that
1:01:24is because people are starting to panic
1:01:26so much about not sleeping but just
1:01:29think about it when there's a huge
1:01:31difference between sleep deprivation
1:01:32which by the way is actively restricting
1:01:35yourself or somebody else restricting
1:01:36you when you literally can't keep your
1:01:38eyes open and that baby is crying or the
1:01:41phone rings and you're on call and
1:01:43you've got to go in and you're just like
1:01:44I literally I could sleep right now I I
1:01:48could literally shut my eyes and then
1:01:50when your body goes I don't want to
1:01:51sleep right now do you really need to
1:01:53worry if your body is saying that I mean
1:01:56it could be in a different pattern which
1:01:57I know is a problem for you and you can
1:01:58change the pattern but that do we need
1:02:01to worry no resting let's do some
1:02:03resting it's the next best thing even
1:02:05resting your mind at the moment like you
1:02:07know back in the day when we were you
1:02:09know cavemen and women we didn't even
1:02:12have as much information as one Netflix
1:02:14episode in a day happen and now we've
1:02:16got so much to kind of um process and
1:02:20part of your but brain uh when you're
1:02:22sleeping does do some of that memory and
1:02:24emotional processing
1:02:26but I think even just resting and doing
1:02:28things very differently to what you do
1:02:30during the day has is hugely powerful
1:02:34it's just not it's not the same as sleep
1:02:36it's not going to give you the same type
1:02:38of restorative effects but it's still
1:02:41restorative especially if you're not
1:02:43having the same kind of rest as you do
1:02:44during the day where you might be sat on
1:02:46your phone scrolling through Instagram
1:02:48it's not that Instagram is inherently
1:02:50bad as such it's more just that your
1:02:52brain is doing so much information
1:02:55processing
1:02:56and obviously I mean there's about
1:02:58mental health there's so much we could
1:03:00talk about there but um yeah so resting
1:03:03at nighttime if you can't sleep
1:03:05wonderful just do something different to
1:03:07what you do during the day Steph you
1:03:09have been reassuring you've been nuanced
1:03:13you have you've been so helpful and I
1:03:15think the lovely thing is there is so
1:03:17much misinformation out there born out
1:03:19of people wanting to be a so-called
1:03:21expert and getting people to buy their
1:03:23programs or follow their routines or
1:03:25sell them a or something to have you
1:03:27talk in a way that is like the biggest
1:03:29thing is not to worry and the simplest
1:03:30thing is to have a regular getup time I
1:03:32me what a what great advice for people
1:03:34to all begin um thank you so much before
1:03:37we finish final question what's the
1:03:39first thing that you would like people
1:03:41to think about if they've been intrigued
1:03:43or triggered in a positive way somehow
1:03:45from this conversation and they think
1:03:46right you know I maybe need to get a a
1:03:48little handle on my sleep or understand
1:03:49it better what would you love them to do
1:03:51this evening or tomorrow morning as a
1:03:53start
1:03:56I
1:03:56think take one thing that you heard me
1:03:59talk about and just do it more often
1:04:02than you don't so consistently um don't
1:04:06you don't need to be perfect what I
1:04:07don't want you to do is turn you into
1:04:09being obsessive about the right things
1:04:11just because I've talked about what the
1:04:13right things are it doesn't mean you
1:04:14become obsessive you will not fix your
1:04:16sleep that way so it's just taking one
1:04:18thing and being consistent and I guess
1:04:21just knowing right now just coming away
1:04:23and being like actually I'm doing all
1:04:25right my sleep's still going to be here
1:04:27I don't actually need anything to sleep
1:04:29even I've created programs to help
1:04:30people but you don't actually need
1:04:32anything to sleep it's existed before we
1:04:36had this conversation and the uh
1:04:38Industrial Revolution and everything
1:04:40else and it will exist after doesn't
1:04:43matter how bad your sleep looks like so
1:04:44that's kind of what I'd love people to
1:04:46take away and that there is support out
1:04:48there if they need it but just remember
1:04:51that there is because I think with sleep
1:04:54people don't realize that there are
1:04:55sleep experts and I hate the word expert
1:04:57but Specialists people that have studied
1:04:59this for a long time that can help you
1:05:02but it's so easy to go to Tik Tok or
1:05:04Google or just a doctor who doesn't have
1:05:08experience in sleep medicine and get
1:05:09your advice because there's much more of
1:05:12that it's easier to get you see so
1:05:14brilliant thanks for your time thank
1:05:19you I don't think you can be high
1:05:21performance by yourself I don't think it
1:05:22exists
1:05:25[Music]
1:05:43I'm interested in what kind of lessons
1:05:45you could pass on to our listeners that
1:05:47is the most interesting question I've
1:05:49ever been asked in my life
1:05:57this is high performance available to
1:06:00you your people and your business right
1:06:03now

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This page contains the full transcript of Why You Wake Up at 2am! Sleep Expert on EXACTLY How to Sleep Better by High Performance, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 13,548 words across 1,835 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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