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Why Won’t the SEC Approve a Bitcoin ETF? With Perianne Boring — Transcript

by The Peter McCormack Show · 16,801 words · 2,460 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:02so one of your favorite books is a
0:04petership book yeah well one of my
0:06favorite economics books is a book
0:08written by Peter Schiff how an economy
0:10grows and why it crashes and it's
0:13written almost like a children's book so
0:16I majored in economics at the state-run
0:19school the University of Florida and
0:23the reason one of the reasons I majored
0:25in economics is because you could take
0:27all these math classes okay that was
0:29always my favorite subject
0:32um but economics is not math
0:34economics is Human Action it's why you
0:37decide to do this over that why you
0:40decide to move uh to Florida and not
0:43California or whatever it's you know
0:47it it is you know human interaction
0:50so
0:52I think today in the economic field they
0:56highly complicate it yeah into models
0:59that have no real world example so
1:02that's kind of uh that book is just kind
1:04of fun it just kind of breaks it down to
1:06like very very very simple things like
1:08what is money how does an economy work
1:10it's not a math problem huh it's human
1:13interaction what is the book called How
1:15an economy grows and why it crashes I
1:19want to get that book Danny remind we
1:21should get chiffon to do that we should
1:22like I I would like to interview Chef on
1:24that one maybe we can co-do that one we
1:27can co-do that I like I have a signed
1:29copy of it actually yeah so I I like
1:32Peter Schiff everything about him
1:35outside of Bitcoin yeah he but see yeah
1:38so I was the same way so I always I've
1:41I've read a lot of his books I've I've
1:43followed him for years before I even
1:44learned about Bitcoin I followed Peter
1:46shift he was one of the people I used to
1:48listen to to really get smart on sound
1:50monetary policy
1:52um but so he he's a traditional and a
1:54classic gold book his in all of his
1:56Investments are super tied into
1:59gold stuff
2:00so he's got a a bias there a natural
2:03bias there and he would have to kind of
2:06walk away from his whole career of
2:08promoting gold as as sound money he
2:11would have to make that shift away from
2:13kind of gold being the answer to all of
2:16the economic problems to bitcoin being
2:18the answer and he can't make that shift
2:19that's all right shift can't make the
2:21shift the shift shift sounds like a
2:24shift
2:26um I think he could I think I think
2:28there are people out there who are
2:30bitcoiners there are people out there
2:32are Goldbergs and people out there who
2:33understand both I think the big a lot of
2:35people at Bitcoin only say well
2:37eventually uh Bitcoin will overtake gold
2:40and gold will become irrelevant but I
2:41think that we're certainly the scenario
2:43we're both a relevant and both can
2:44represent some form of sound money
2:47depending on who you are we should just
2:49let the free market decide we should
2:51allow all of them to be a competing
2:54currency and then let people decide what
2:57they want to use as a store of value or
2:59as a as a means of a transaction it's
3:02the one Shame about shift shift when I'm
3:05saying shift there's one thing about a
3:06shame about Peter Schiff because he he's
3:09amazing when he's not talking about
3:10Bitcoin yeah and when he talks about
3:12Bitcoin he's talking from a place of
3:15arguing against it and then he's just
3:17turned into like a full-on troll on
3:19Twitter it's awful like I don't even
3:21follow him anymore because I'm so
3:22annoyed by him I I don't mind it because
3:24I see the trolling and I think he still
3:26offers a lot of value to bitcoin that's
3:28not only in sharpening your tools and
3:30your Arguments for Bitcoin but actually
3:32his understanding of the economy
3:33understanding of the FED yeah
3:35understanding of government policy and
3:37we all have a bias I mean I have a
3:39Bitcoin bias and checking your bias is
3:41really hard
3:43and also when you've been wrong so so
3:46much about something like Bitcoin you
3:47it's very hard I think for someone to
3:49walk that back and he was introduced to
3:51bitcoin when it was like a dollar but
3:53yeah was it by Max Kaiser or something I
3:56think so yeah you know and then he had
3:57the debate with Eric Voorhees when it
3:59was what say 30 yeah he could have made
4:04um unreal amounts of money yeah unreal
4:06amounts of money and to walk their backs
4:07very hard but then at the same time he's
4:09not poor
4:10um but it could have been a lot more
4:12Rich how do you listen to people like or
4:14Eric Voorhees and Max Kaiser back 10
4:17years ago it's the same so I've it's
4:19kind of the same thing with Andrew Ross
4:21Sorkin who I have a lot of respect for
4:23the New York Times go no he's on Squawk
4:25Box he's one of the like he's gotten a
4:27lot better I would say in the past year
4:29but he's he's very critical of Bitcoin
4:31and I've gotten into tips with him on
4:33air and it's like what
4:35um but kind of my theory is that you
4:39know he was one of the first people in
4:41network broadcast news to interview
4:43Bitcoin people he interviewed the
4:45Winklevoss in 2013 and he was like this
4:47is you know he wasn't into it but you
4:50know he missed the opportunity to buy
4:51Bitcoin back then what Bitcoin was like
4:54under 100 bucks so he missed one of the
4:57most uh
4:59um the biggest opportunity investment
5:00opportunities of his entire career he
5:02just missed it so why would you turn
5:03around now you know I'm gonna ask you to
5:05bring up now don't you what's that the
5:07salty coefficient yeah do you know the
5:09salty coefficient no we interviewed this
5:12guy called Craig wonky he's a uh
5:15philosopher and he he wrote a whole
5:17paper talking about how
5:20um specifically people who had the
5:23opportunity to invest in Bitcoin early
5:25on and make life changes amounts of
5:27money uh specifically journalists he
5:30refers to that because they didn't over
5:32time they become more salty yeah and
5:34therefore their articles become uh even
5:37worse
5:38is the saltiness all right
5:42um and I always think Nathaniel popper
5:44is a really good example of this because
5:46he wrote
5:47um was it was it called digital gold I
5:49can't remember what that was yeah so
5:51that's a good book though yeah it's a
5:52great book first book I read on bitcoin
5:54and uh
5:55you know Nathaniel Popper's now just
5:57become I think almost uh a troll against
5:59Bitcoin I mean I think I mean I'm not a
6:01coinbase fan but his piece when he went
6:04after coinbase was just terrible he just
6:06went it was the most woke attack on
6:07bitcoin and coinbase ever I just think
6:10again he probably forgot to buy some
6:12Bitcoin well I think that salty coal is
6:14also going to impact politicians so if
6:17you so if you will get kind of the
6:18makeup of policy makers and maybe I'll
6:21just kind of use the US Congress as an
6:23example but I think it's pretty
6:24emblematic of all like legislatures like
6:27we today in U.S Congress we've got maybe
6:3140 about you know a couple dozen members
6:34of Congress that are like real champions
6:35for this technology they understand it
6:38they understand how the technology works
6:40and they want to make sure that the US
6:43is positioned to receive the benefits of
6:47this ecosystem and then you've got like
6:49an A in that group is is bipartisan it's
6:52people across the aisle and and then and
6:56then you have a group of people who are
6:57like very strong detractors and those
7:00are almost exclusively
7:02um very Progressive liberals and that's
7:05a much smaller group but it's just a
7:07handful of people maybe a half a dozen
7:09people Squad
7:10the squad that's Brad Sherman Senator
7:12Elizabeth Warren and they are just anti
7:15this stuff like they hate it yeah and
7:18then everybody else is kind of like in
7:20the middle but but how does
7:22so this is just Tech Bitcoin is just
7:25technology you know it's no different
7:26than electricity or the light bulb or
7:29the printing press it's not good it's
7:32not bad it's a technology it's people
7:34determining how they use it is what can
7:37be good or bad so if you use Bitcoin
7:39well it's a threat well I mean it's a
7:41technology it is a technology it's
7:44software like like it doesn't it doesn't
7:47have feelings it doesn't have intentions
7:50right and that's what it represents
7:53which is a threat because is there any
7:54technology that has ever uh received
7:58this kind of higher bar that it must
8:00adhere to like yesterday we had Nick
8:02Carter in and we were going through the
8:04White House report that he uh annotated
8:07which was not only very badly put
8:10together uh very badly the citations
8:13they used were terrible
8:15um
8:16um but it sets this bar that Bitcoin or
8:19Bitcoin companies have to hit that is
8:20way higher than other companies have to
8:22hit
8:22and that to me was one of the questions
8:26I was going to come to you with is
8:27everything we seem to do this seems to
8:31be this very high bar that Bitcoin has
8:33to meet
8:34and I'm trying to understand why and I
8:35think mainly it's because it's a
8:38technology that can make people
8:39supremely Rich because not only is it
8:41technology it's a money and people feel
8:43like they missed out
8:45yeah I mean this industry is definite
8:47from from the regulatory perspective I
8:49mean there are very specific examples
8:50where we can see the this industry in
8:53this asset class is held to a higher
8:55standard and I would argue that's
8:58discriminatory it definitely is
9:00discriminatory but it but it it is also
9:02a threat
9:03I don't think the technology is a threat
9:05perhaps the people's the ways in which
9:08people will use it could be a threat so
9:10it could be a threat so I mean the one
9:12thing that's so beautiful about Bitcoin
9:14is if you don't agree with the Central
9:17Bank economic planning regime that we're
9:20all currently under
9:22you can peacefully opt out of that today
9:25by using this technology so again the
9:28technology doesn't have any intentions
9:30but a person's intention of saying you
9:32know I don't want to go to a bank I
9:34don't really want to be subject to a
9:37small group of people deflating the
9:39value of my hard-earned money so I'm
9:42going to choose to put everything in in
9:45Bitcoin instead
9:48um I mean that how someone would use the
9:51technology could be a threat which is
9:53also a very American idea I I've always
9:55I've always seen Bitcoin as a very
9:57American idea the values of Americans
9:59the fact that you can opt out you can
10:02I think in the UK we're a little bit
10:04more subservient to our government uh
10:06and my understanding and studying
10:09limited studying of the US and the
10:11establishment of your Constitution was
10:13that uh you're a little bit more like uh
10:16the the government serves the people not
10:18so much recently
10:20uh which I think Bitcoin is a great
10:23technology in that it allows perhaps a
10:25reset of what American values
10:29um but it just feels like a very
10:30American idea I that's why I like it
10:32that's why I like coming over here and
10:33talking to people about it well I think
10:35at its core if you could describe
10:36Bitcoin in one word it would be Freedom
10:38yes that's very good so what was your
10:41attraction to it so you studied
10:42economics but anybody who studies
10:44economics uh at school doesn't really
10:47study Austrian economics I studied
10:49Keynes and economics and so when you
10:51first I learned that on my journey and
10:53that's um so I I grew up we're in my
10:56home state I grew up here in Florida I'm
10:58from Lakeland Florida which is Central
11:00Florida very different from Miami you're
11:02a gator I'm a Florida Gator I went to
11:04the University of Florida
11:06um and I did they win yesterday they
11:08played Missouri right
11:10we watched the game on our phone in the
11:13car on the way up here because we went
11:15to a bar to watch my soccer team and
11:17they said we had to be done by do you
11:19know what team I'm trying to help them
11:20understand I'm speaking the local
11:23language come on man uh my football team
11:26you understand what I mean by my
11:28football team right soccer yes actual
11:31football where you use a foot yeah to
11:33kick the ball to kick a ball yes no pads
11:35right
11:37um uh so we had to be done by 12 yeah
11:39and we were like there's no problem it
11:41kicks off at 10 yeah it's an hour and a
11:43half game we'll be done and then our
11:45linesman got injured and we had like a
11:4615-20 minute delay so the game normally
11:48finishes on 90 minutes I was finished at
11:50what like it's like 110 110 minutes and
11:52then the bar just they said look this
11:54place is going to get busy and it's just
11:55filled up with all these you know young
11:57Gala fans are you into one of the Gator
11:59bars no yeah one of the Gator bars where
12:01we got out so we have gator like the the
12:03University of Florida Alumni Association
12:05like in every town you can join the
12:07Alumni Association there will be like a
12:09gator bar oh right and the association
12:11will organize with the bar and say we're
12:14going to invite all of our UF alumni
12:16here and we're gonna watch the game
12:17together it must have been one of those
12:18because they even had someone selling
12:19merch and stuff yeah yeah oh man y'all
12:22should have invited me I would have gone
12:23to that yeah so they won well we did so
12:25we didn't stay we had to come and you
12:27know make a show with Nick
12:29um but uh
12:32yeah yeah Missouri
12:34I don't even know where Missouri is is
12:36Missouri where they filmed that um
12:39what's that ah series with a lake
12:42the Ozarks that Missouri I don't know is
12:45the Ozarks Missouri I don't know yeah
12:47I'm from Florida not my state but Mizzou
12:50was just brought into the SEC a couple
12:52of years ago so the Southeastern
12:55Conference is like the dominant college
12:57football conference the SEC the SEC now
13:01it's confused with the Securities and
13:03Exchange Commission that's the yeah
13:05different SEC but the SEC in terms of
13:08like the revenue they bring in it's more
13:09than all the other conferences put
13:11together it's like the Southeastern
13:12Conference like dominates college
13:14football in a huge way are they paying
13:16players yet no they don't play players
13:18hmm no not not college so these college
13:20people make because I I watched a film
13:22which alluded to this about how a lot of
13:25players the these college conferences
13:28make a lot of money and the players help
13:31them make a lot of money but not
13:32everyone makes it as a pro footballer
13:33and they get injuries and yeah that's a
13:36big debate there's an argument they
13:37should be paid well they just changed
13:39the law to where the players can now be
13:41paid on their likeness so they can have
13:42different types of sponsorships
13:45deals and things like that I think
13:48that's right that they should be paid
13:49you should pay people when they work
13:51yeah I agree with that yeah
13:53not a fan of slavery
13:55all right not America
13:57we've got a coffee delivery yeah we've
13:59got a coffee delivery that's some noise
14:00all right coffee break it's 9 A.M so
14:02we're doing coffee instead of scotch we
14:04can do scotch I don't think I should do
14:06Scotch after yesterday
14:08thank you there we go delivered
14:11I interrupted you I prefer talking about
14:13sports sometimes so I interrupted you so
14:15you're you're from the state of Florida
14:17oh we were talking about my journey into
14:19Bitcoin okay so that's we were not
14:21talking about sports we just went on a
14:23tangent so yeah I went to the University
14:25of Florida
14:27um studied economics
14:29and uh for me so I was in college during
14:34the 2008 financial crisis okay and the
14:37State of Florida got rocked by the
14:39financial crisis because a lot of it was
14:41the housing market going bust and well
14:44that's one of Florida's largest uh
14:46economies here and so literally every
14:48single person I knew was impacted in a
14:51big way just in my we're a middle class
14:53family so nobody went hungry nobody was
14:57homeless or anything but my my
15:00grandmother lived with my aunt that she
15:02still lives with my aunt and uncle and
15:03their house went underwater and they had
15:05to move they were completely displaced
15:08um which was very unfortunate and they
15:10had downsize and you know have cousins
15:12and it was just like a huge loss for
15:14them and it was really sad to to see
15:16that
15:17um the company my brother worked for
15:19went out of business and my my brother
15:21lost his job
15:22um he's gainfully employed now again
15:24like everyone's fine but seeing how this
15:27impacts real people
15:29um to had it had a big impression on me
15:32at a young age my parents um we did not
15:35my parents didn't inherit anything they
15:36worked for everything they had half of
15:38their life savings just evaporated with
15:40the stock market collapse so I'm in
15:43school studying economics reading these
15:46math books written by Ben Bernanke who
15:48was the chairman of the FED at the time
15:50and me and a couple of my friends were
15:52like this isn't explaining what's
15:54happening in our hometowns right now
15:57and we started getting in arguments with
16:00the professors because right like there
16:02was a lot of friction in the classroom
16:04and so there was a small group of us
16:06where we said okay like we really do
16:08want to understand what's happening and
16:10we weren't getting the answers in school
16:12so
16:14um we started you know just searching
16:15whatever information on the internet in
16:18the library that we could find and the
16:20first person we found who was able to
16:22explain what was going on was this guy
16:24who was running for president it was
16:27um actually an OB GYN doctor running for
16:30president who was talking about ending
16:32the fed and auditing the fed and that
16:34was Dr Ron Paul
16:35wow and okay so uh it was was he an
16:39independent at that point or was he
16:40running he ran he was running under for
16:42the Republican nominee okay yeah and so
16:45he but he had you know a very large
16:47platform thankfully you know we were
16:48able to find out but he was able to
16:49answer a lot of questions and if you if
16:52you go on to his
16:54um start reading about him and his talks
16:57he would talk about
16:59um Austrian economics so then we got
17:01introduced to all the great writers of
17:03Austrian economics from mises and
17:06rothbard and and that complete that that
17:08that was all that was the answer and I
17:10tell you the thing that was so difficult
17:12for me that really put
17:15um
17:16just a really bad taste in my mouth was
17:18that the school didn't even bother to
17:21tell you that economics it's not it's
17:23not science it's not math where there's
17:26just one answer like two plus two equals
17:27four like there's no other way to do
17:29that equation right
17:31um it it's a theory economics is theory
17:34and there's different theories of
17:35Economics they only teach you one and
17:39they don't tell you that there's others
17:40out there which is the one they teach
17:42you well of course Keynesian economics
17:44who does that benefit
17:45it it benefits the current system in
17:49place exactly and we we looked into that
17:52too we're like you know why is this and
17:54um I wouldn't quote this stat but it's
17:56uh you have I'd have to go back and look
17:58and see if I can find it but when I did
18:00the research on it several years ago
18:03um I found that uh it was up to 50 of
18:07all PhD economists today and a lot of
18:09those are working in universities and in
18:11Academia or in government or other
18:14places but about 50 percent of all
18:16economists working today are are somehow
18:19on the fed's payroll
18:21incentives matter
18:23yeah we've been talking a lot about
18:25incentives recently so
18:27so Washington when so my senior year of
18:29college I hold on can we just roll back
18:32a second so so with your college
18:34professors
18:36would this be in class or outside of
18:38class where you would challenge them and
18:40and did you specifically ask them about
18:42Austrian economics and why are you not
18:44teaching us this why because my my view
18:47is look I dropped out of University and
18:50the university I wasn't too was
18:51particularly great but I look at
18:53American universities with like I said
18:55in my Romanticism because of Hollywood
18:57where you would see these amazing
18:59professors who would you who would
19:02create debate within the classes and
19:03Inspire their kids and I just would
19:05always imagine if you went in you would
19:07be in these big auditoriums where you
19:09know a big empathy auditoriums where
19:12you'd have these electric debates and
19:14they would inspire you so I would hope
19:15you would go into one of these and you
19:17would all be there debating these issues
19:19did that did that happen
19:21we have so I mean at a Florida state-run
19:25school these are very large schools so
19:28we've had over 45 000 students at the
19:30University of Florida so your first
19:32couple years you're in these big
19:33auditoriums with you there's hundreds of
19:35people in your class so you don't really
19:37get a lot of like one-on-one time to
19:40have conversations with the professor
19:42you don't really have like those debates
19:43in the classroom but by junior senior
19:45year the classes get a lot smaller and
19:48so by senior year they work smaller we
19:50could have more in-depth conversations
19:52um I don't really I mean there was
19:53definitely friction in these
19:54conversations I just remember we us
19:56being like really unsatisfied with the
19:58answers so you didn't have Robin
20:00Williams did Poet Society no no not not
20:04in in the public school system here in
20:06Florida definitely not that's why I
20:07imagine it's always like it so okay so
20:10um you finished your uh you finished you
20:12completed University you went to I did
20:14graduate from college the only only one
20:16of my siblings I graduated from high
20:17school I'm the only one who dropped out
20:20all right all right yeah
20:23um okay so you went you went so senior
20:25year so uh so how so did this kind of
20:27study of you know what's happening in
20:29the economy uh got to under you know uh
20:33uh was introduced to uh Congressman Ron
20:36Paul Dr Ron Paul was running for
20:38president and
20:40um
20:41what I learned on that
20:43Independent Journal journey of what
20:46happened in the financial system what's
20:48going on in the economy
20:51how does our economy work
20:54um I was
20:56um very upset
20:58and I really did not feel like the the
21:02world we were living in represented the
21:04values that I I was taught in my public
21:06school education and I wanted to fight
21:09for something better so I applied to be
21:11a White House intern I was the only
21:13person in the State of Florida that
21:15interned in the White House that turbine
21:16was there and
21:19um
21:20after that I went to Capitol Hill and
21:23worked on the hill and I was fighting
21:26for a better economic and financial
21:29future that's at that's what I decided I
21:32was going to do with my life I was going
21:33to
21:34advocate for a better economic policy
21:38and I'm still on that Journey today but
21:40for the first several years you know it
21:43was looking at how do we get to more
21:45sound money policies and on that journey
21:48I learned about Bitcoin so so this would
21:52have been under Obama so I was I
21:54interned at the white house uh when when
21:57Obama was President and so when you
21:59intern at the White House are you
22:01actually working inside the White House
22:03help me understand yeah so you're in the
22:05executive office of course in terms of
22:07like the physical buildings there's lots
22:09of buildings Beyond just that one white
22:12house or the the opal office is but
22:15you're ingrained into that part of what
22:17they teach you when when you get to
22:18intern at the White House is how the
22:20White House works and there's a lot of
22:22different offices from the National
22:24Economic Council the office of Science
22:26and Technology policy that's the paper
22:29that did so that office you have an
22:34advanced team who helps organize the
22:37schedule there's all these offices and
22:40then you get to kind of rotate through a
22:41couple of them and were you Pro Obama
22:44when he came in because you're from a
22:47red state
22:48I did not come from a political family
22:51and you know I would say at that time I
22:54I probably would not have been able to
22:55like truly Define what my how I would
22:58identify politically today I am a solid
23:02libertarian I'm like a Ron Paul
23:04libertarian which is neither
23:07um democrat or republican so what was
23:09that you're mildly Republican there are
23:11some synergies between some of the ideas
23:13but it also has synergies on both sides
23:15so libertarian takes it takes pieces of
23:17of democratic politics and Republican
23:20politics actually In fairness Lynn
23:22alden's tweets read the other day is
23:24probably a fair representation of that
23:26yeah yeah okay
23:29um and when you were working there did
23:32you become skeptical that any change
23:35could happen or did you become did you
23:38manage to actually achieve anything that
23:39you hoped you would achieve yeah so when
23:41I was interning at the granite you're an
23:44intern so you know you're just kind of
23:46like barely at the top of the iceberg in
23:49terms of what you get to do in the
23:50couple months that you're there I would
23:51say the one of the most important things
23:53I took from that experience is someone
23:55who grew up in you know Central Florida
23:57from a middle class family you know
23:59worked for the things that I had had a
24:02lot of great opportunities though have
24:04been incredibly
24:06um uh fortunate in my life but being
24:09able to meet the first African-American
24:12president of the United States and I had
24:14the opportunity to take President
24:15Obama's hand and have a conversation
24:16with him
24:18um that was in that moment my biggest
24:20takeaway was that you can do anything
24:23you set your mind to in this world and
24:25in this country if he could become the
24:28president of the United States than me
24:29just
24:31a you know a girl from Central Florida
24:34uh you know I can change the world too
24:37and so that's like that's still the
24:39journey that that I'm on today and today
24:41I'm dedicated to doing that through
24:42Bitcoin well I think that's a uniquely
24:44interesting thing about American I don't
24:45know what it is or why it works but uh
24:48I've built the entire world everything
24:50me and Danny have built with this
24:51podcast The Authority is if it's
24:53happened in the US we've built this
24:55success occur in the US I go back to the
24:57UK I don't get so far we've I've had no
24:59success in the UK you haven't had any
25:01Australia but we come here and there's
25:03like and I think what it is is I think
25:05in the US people celebrate success and
25:08they want you to win
25:10but they want to win alongside you
25:12I think about somewhere like the UK If
25:14like people kind of slightly resent
25:16winning and they'd like want to crush
25:17you and then beat you and it is weird
25:20but we do it with a really nice smile
25:21we're really civil about it
25:23yeah I mean I think that maybe that the
25:26Socialist
25:28influence in the economy and the culture
25:32and it's it's probably more the EU than
25:34the UK although I would say the UK has
25:36more socialist policies than the United
25:39States EU more so than the UK but that
25:43is one of my like pet peeves when I'm
25:46debating
25:47policy with people and you have these
25:49folks who are saying you know we should
25:51just socialize everything and have the
25:53government just take care of everything
25:55I'm like well that is socialism and and
25:57if you're pro-socialism you'll go to go
26:00go live in Paris like go live in this
26:02beautiful city and go live that
26:05socialist lifestyle but that's not what
26:07America was founded on but democracy
26:09should allow change it should allow
26:12change but with limited government
26:14influence of course I I still think I've
26:17now experienced the healthcare system in
26:19both countries yeah uh can I tell you
26:22the differences I noticed which we'll
26:24probably tell people all right let's
26:25have a healthcare today well so no we're
26:26not gonna have a debate because I I'm a
26:28terrible debater but um just so people
26:30know you and I were meant to record an
26:32interview yesterday and I had to
26:33postpone it because I have a thing
26:35called SV I've talked about the show
26:36before I have these svts I'm not sure if
26:38it's a condition but basically my heart
26:39just goes a little crazy sometimes
26:41um about once a year I have to go to
26:43hospital uh when it happens just to
26:44check that I'm not having a heart attack
26:45and dying and we had one yesterday so
26:48I'll sat there and I was getting these
26:50chest pains I said to Danny and then
26:51suddenly I deteriorated very quickly my
26:53lips went cold uh I started trembling so
26:56I was like we need to go to
26:57hospital
26:58just I'm used to this so I'm not
27:00thinking the first time it ever happened
27:01I thought I was having a heart attack it
27:04was God eight years ago now I'm like oh
27:06it's another one of these one day
27:08it'll actually be a heart attack that'll
27:10be the end of the show
27:11yeah but yeah and and you'll turn up and
27:14it'll be Danny interviewing you
27:16um I actually told that to Danny
27:17yesterday I was like well you can
27:18interview me he's like yeah no if I
27:21could use the cameras would have been
27:22asked actually it was funny so me and me
27:24and Jeremy were sat there in the
27:25hospital and uh
27:27uh we actually had that conversation
27:30because there is a conversation I mean
27:31me and Danny have have a plan like if
27:33anything should happen to me you know
27:34what happens to the show is it is a it's
27:36an asset which has value therefore
27:40um my children have an inheritance
27:41obviously my son and daughter are not
27:43going to present the show although
27:44Scarlett would be pretty awesome
27:45so we've often talked about who would
27:48take over and we've suggested names who
27:50who could be offered the slot and host
27:52the show but actually uh Danny's now the
27:54natural successor because he's now part
27:56of the show me and Jeremy had that
27:57conversation and said actually it would
27:59be a different show it'd be it'd be a
28:01little bit more intelligent Danny's
28:02better on on the financial side to me
28:04and then maybe but Danny does yeah what
28:06Danny does I've been trying to poison
28:08him for ages but but Daddy isn't as
28:10funny so it would be a bit more drive
28:13but anyway so uh so anyway I'm
28:16so I'm in hospital in hospital and
28:18obviously I'm facing the reality as like
28:20okay I'm gonna have to get a bill here
28:21and firstly I'm like did I get
28:23travel insurance I think I've got travel
28:24insurance
28:25so what happens is in both scenarios you
28:28turn up you spend a long a lot of time
28:30waiting they know most people coming in
28:32with chest pains these days aren't a
28:33heart attack if you're having a heart
28:35attack you're actually having a heart
28:36attack and you need resuscitation most
28:39people come in chest pains I don't have
28:40some are early stage but aren't having a
28:42heart attack
28:43and so they they make you sit around and
28:46you get an ECG they call it an EKG in
28:49American hospitals even though in
28:50medical training they call it an ECG
28:52suddenly when you're in hospital they've
28:53got an EKG so they strap you up they do
28:55a blood test and um and then this is
28:58where the differences happen
29:00the blood test in the UK they take three
29:02vials of blood in the U.S they took
29:04seven vials of blood in the UK you sit
29:07and wait for your blood test yeah you
29:09have your ECG the doctor says you know
29:12what's going on in your life and then
29:13you go home but here I was going
29:16paracetamol and I was given nitroglycine
29:19was it Jeremy and I said huh so in the
29:21UK I'm not given this and she said yes
29:23and funny enough she she was from
29:25Manchester uh did he tell you that yeah
29:28and she said yeah the difference here is
29:30people sue you if you get things wrong I
29:32was like huh okay and so
29:36um and then I get yeah when I leave the
29:37UK you just go we're here they give me a
29:39whole pack
29:41um so and then obviously you get a bill
29:42here so the the differences are are I
29:46think
29:47the because our system's socialist
29:50they keep it they want to give you the
29:52minimum to save cost
29:55whereas in the US because you have to
29:57pay for medical care I think they want
29:58to give you more stuff so they can raise
30:00the bill raise the bill and also
30:04reduce the risk of litigating we are a
30:06very litigious culture that that is true
30:08and that is not a good thing from the
30:10outside as well the place was pretty
30:12gross yeah the place was good so I
30:14actually asked Jeremy that I said to
30:15Jeremy I said um is this as typical
30:17Hospitality said no this is a bit more
30:18run down but it was way more rundown
30:21than any hospital I've been in the UK
30:22which surprised me because my picture of
30:25America is you're paying for uh you know
30:28medical care I assume they'd all be like
30:30some spa hotel yeah very clean you gotta
30:33pay extra for that yeah very clean you
30:35have to make a big donation get a wing
30:37built in your name for that so so what
30:39stood out to me but like generally
30:41speaking the hospitals look the same
30:43feel the same have the same uh staffing
30:47issues have the same response time
30:50Everything feels almost exactly the same
30:53but the money changes the incentives
30:56we're trying to cut cost in the UK
30:59America's trying to make money and so I
31:01think they TR and that's another
31:02interesting thing so when you go to a
31:04spa you go for a massage get your nails
31:06done you look at the menu you get a
31:08price list
31:09when you have medical treatment you just
31:11get a bill at the end you've got no you
31:12can't say I don't want the blood test or
31:14and I I still don't know I still don't
31:16know how much my bill is going to be I
31:17assume it's going to be about a thousand
31:18dollars but it could be five thousand
31:20dollars yeah
31:22yeah so I was in the White House the day
31:24the Affordable Care Act was signed into
31:26law and I was there for all of the
31:28campaign work that went to get that bill
31:30passed so our health care System it's
31:33not a like free market Health Care
31:35System it is it is a blend of
31:41heavy funding from government and
31:44private sector so we're kind of in the
31:47middle and it's there's less to both
31:49yeah you get the worst of both yeah it's
31:51not it there there are actually after
31:54that stent I I thought about going into
31:56medical school because I said like our
31:58Health Care system is broken and it'd be
32:00good to have a doctor in the family but
32:02it's not really my interest or my field
32:05of study but our medical system is
32:07absolutely broken
32:09I also think ours is broken
32:11um
32:12but the things that stand out to me are
32:14that when I'm in the UK and I have one
32:17of my svts I go to hospital I wait and I
32:21go home
32:22uh I had I have travel insurance here
32:26but if I didn't have insurance
32:28and I wasn't particularly you know
32:31financially secure I can see a scenario
32:33I don't want that thousand dollar bill
32:35so I'm just gonna stay at home I'm gonna
32:37you know breathe and meditate or
32:40whatever I need to calm myself down but
32:41there may come a time when one of those
32:42svts is not an SVT and I have a heart
32:44attack yeah so that thing I don't like
32:46and this is just this is just a blood
32:49test in the ECG yeah there are obviously
32:52other things that are particularly more
32:53expensive
32:54and
32:56as antithetical as this is to bitcoin
32:59and as much as it triggers some people
33:01of bitcoiners
33:02I do like the fact that the UK anyone
33:05whoever you are wherever you are you can
33:07go and get
33:08uh medical treatment I think our system
33:11is broken in that there are people who
33:13can afford to pay for private medical
33:14and they should because private medical
33:16uh cover in care in the UK is is amazing
33:20it's unbelievably good and it's cheaper
33:23than health insurance in the US I also
33:26think there are lots of inefficiencies
33:27but I like
33:29that's the part of socialism I like is
33:32medical care for all because I think of
33:35a country as its resources and some
33:37people have had a chronological benefit
33:39to accessing early resources or you know
33:42my kids will have to worry about money
33:43less than me because of my work and my
33:46parents too there's a chronological
33:48benefit there is a lot there's all these
33:50different factors but we're all we all
33:52build our success of the same set of
33:53resources I do like
33:56I do like the idea that people get
33:57universal healthcare
33:59and I'm sure you don't
34:02I I'm not going to advocate for
34:04socialist policies I certainly I mean
34:06that has been one of the biggest debates
34:07here in the United States of my
34:09generation what do you think the the
34:12perfect system is I'm always an advocate
34:14of limited government I mean I I think
34:17the government's role really should be
34:19limited to basically defense
34:21protecting the borders protecting our
34:23communities having a solid rule of law
34:26because
34:28because the private sector the free
34:30market is going to be more efficient
34:32than bureaucrats planning anything or
34:34running anything
34:36there is that trade-off though between
34:38uh efficiency of private institutions
34:41and then the walked incentives of
34:45private institutions
34:47private companies so whereas uh uh a
34:51company who you know companies
34:53particularly more efficient I always
34:55bring up the example of DuPont classic
34:57case of DuPont a company that poisoned
35:00the waters led to the Cancers and deaths
35:03to a lot of people within their
35:04communities because they're just a
35:06greedy Corporation
35:07now I'm kind of with you I think we
35:10should have much more smaller and
35:12limited government and their role is to
35:14protect communities
35:15I think healthcare is protecting your
35:17community yeah I think when you you have
35:19TR and we haven't really had this
35:21probably since the founding of the
35:24United States because
35:26you're constantly getting more
35:27government influence as time goes on in
35:29different Industries and different
35:30businesses but I don't think we would
35:33have these big businesses these
35:35companies that are too big to fail or to
35:37get to a point where they can call it
35:39systemic risk unless they have backing
35:42and influence by the government unless
35:44they have regulatory capture unless they
35:46have special agreements with the
35:48government uh to maybe share your
35:50information share your data provide
35:52surveillance of its users in exchange
35:55for being able to grow and become bigger
35:57and make more money for shareholders so
35:59that that's the crony capitalism which
36:02is very much where we are today in the
36:03United States and that's not the answer
36:05and that's certainly not what I'm
36:06advocating for I think if you go back to
36:09a true free market economy we would have
36:12more Community Driven businesses because
36:15businesses are going to be incentivized
36:18to do the best for the people around
36:20them for the people that they serve and
36:22it's really hard to do that in in math
36:24so I think you have more community
36:26communities of of businesses and uh and
36:31I think that's also led to the
36:32degradation of a lot of our morals as a
36:35society I I actually agree with you a
36:37lot I I think you could rename it Pelosi
36:40capitalism rather than no no no that
36:42would not no this is like Ron Paul
36:44capitalism
36:46I'm being sarcastic um
36:49but no I can agree with you because
36:51there's loads of examples you can see um
36:53you can see the benefits Amazon has when
36:55they try and negotiate preferential tax
36:57treatment because of the creation of
36:59jobs which uh ends up eroding the local
37:02businesses there which they which they
37:05can destroy I can I completely agree
37:07with you you saw order and covid where
37:09uh large-scale companies could very
37:12quickly putting systems and uh ordering
37:15procedures to help them to operate
37:16during covid where a small mum and dad
37:18businesses couldn't we saw so many
37:19collapse I am so many Industries we have
37:22oligopolies we're just a couple of very
37:25large businesses control everything you
37:27don't have those small Community Driven
37:29businesses and we're also seeing the
37:31Insidious influence I mean we saw
37:33everything yesterday with PayPal yeah
37:36did you see that I did I saw a really
37:38great tweet where somebody said no I'm
37:40going to be uh leave I'm closing my
37:42PayPal account uh you don't get to tell
37:45me what I can say you don't get to steal
37:47my money we're not China it was a it was
37:49it was a very good tweet but I I
37:51completely empathize you I I think I'm
37:53becoming more libertarian over time it's
37:55just we don't have
37:57in the UK we don't have a cultural
37:58libertarianism it's not something I
38:00didn't I've never heard well it's a very
38:01small culture here in the United States
38:03I mean when I worked on Capitol Hill I
38:05felt like a total freak as somebody who
38:07was advocating for like saying we got to
38:10do something about 15 years ago I was
38:12walking the halls of Congress trying to
38:13get people to coalesce around like we've
38:16got to do something about inflation
38:17nobody gave a about inflation 50.
38:19like I was like a pariah I feel like you
38:21are freaking nuts
38:22and today
38:24according to one of the last CNN polls
38:27is the inflation is the number one issue
38:29for American voters today is inflation
38:31it happens very quickly very very
38:34quickly and once it gets out of control
38:36it's really hard to rein that back in so
38:39I I think this you know libertarian the
38:41idea of getting government out of
38:43everything is something that is may
38:47become more popular but I don't know I
38:49was like I thought there was a lot of
38:50setback during the last election when
38:53you saw all these young people get
38:54behind Bernie Sanders who I would argue
38:56was the Socialist candidate but I think
38:58a lot of the young people were like oh
38:59he wants to get rid of all my student
39:01loan debt so that's good for me I'm
39:04gonna vote for that but that's the
39:05complete opposite of libertarian so yeah
39:08I think I don't know I think one of the
39:10differences as well it's like the
39:11freedom is a very important word for
39:12Americans it's not something we discuss
39:14in the UK it's not the same not in the
39:16same way but Americans uh will often
39:19talk about their freedoms being eroded
39:21uh politicians well we don't really tend
39:23to talk like that we to talk more about
39:26togetherness we're collectivists I think
39:28we should talk about it more than no we
39:30should we absolutely should for the
39:31people who cared about it left and came
39:32here Generations ago so the people who
39:35are still there that's the the the
39:37families of the people who fought
39:38against that concept so I think that
39:40that makes sense but also when you talk
39:42about it you come across as a psycho
39:45like my friends think I'm a psycho my I
39:49had a massive argument one Christmas
39:51with my brother talking about some of
39:53these issues
39:54um
39:55they think I'm a conspiracy like and by
39:58the way well that was me working on
40:00Capitol Hill 15 years ago talking about
40:02inflation but imagine the leap the
40:04people who listen to my show The
40:05Americans they think I'm a libtard and
40:08then in the UK my friends think I'm a
40:11psycho conspiracy theory so imagine the
40:13leap to go from from one to the other I
40:15get it I'm walking this Middle Line
40:17trying to trying to get the people of
40:19the show not to hate me and think I'm a
40:21massive socialist whilst at the same
40:23time trying to orange pill people who
40:25they really would have an issue with and
40:27that that walk in that line from one to
40:29the other it's very difficult so when I
40:31after leaving the hill and and then
40:33becoming an advocate for Bitcoin and
40:36like going back to a lot of my old
40:37friends who still work you know who who
40:39were still on the hill and saying hey
40:40like with Bob to talk about Bitcoin with
40:42you uh definitely felt like a psycho
40:45back in 2013 2014 where everyone's like
40:47okay I heard about Bitcoin I heard about
40:49these meetups what are you guys really
40:52doing like are you okay like what is
40:54going on
40:55are you in a cold maybe a little bit so
40:59the bitcoiners were right let's just be
41:02very fair about this I think we can say
41:03objectively they were right they've been
41:05talking about inflation for a long time
41:07way before these transitory eight nine
41:10ten decades yeah before it showed up in
41:13a CNN poll and then here it is we have
41:15very high inflation we have a lot of
41:17issues in the economy I mean Bitcoin was
41:20born in the 2008 financial crisis
41:22we know we know what Satoshi wrote In
41:24The Genesis block
41:25and we know that everything's happened
41:27since and they all predicted it
41:30so what I would ask you is
41:34there is being right theoretically but
41:36then there's also
41:38believing that the system a system built
41:40on bitcoin will actually fix these
41:42problems do you do you believe both so I
41:45believe this technology can address many
41:48of the systemic issues in our Global
41:51Financial and our monetary system today
41:53right absolutely I mean at its core I
41:55think Keynesian economics is evil I
41:59agree it and what inflation is and this
42:03is you know another thing that really
42:05upset me as I was learning about
42:07economics understanding how these things
42:09work inflation is theft make no mistake
42:12it is the government stealing from you
42:13from its people and if you think about
42:16that well what what is money to you know
42:18most people who work for wages just
42:20normal people not the Super Rich you
42:22work you get a paycheck
42:24most people you know you put in your
42:26bank account and then the government
42:28prints more money so the money in your
42:31bank account that represents the hours
42:33you worked is being taken from you
42:36somebody's purchasing bill but so it's
42:38it's almost a form of slavery of course
42:41I mean you work to earn money to buy
42:43stuff and then they take the money from
42:44you it's like taking your work from you
42:46well they because you can't get that
42:47time back they double dip yeah so they
42:50text you because they tax you too yeah
42:51so and then they Shadow text you yeah
42:54yeah no I completely agree and so but
42:57what what
42:58when we talk about inflation today and I
43:00wrote an article about this eight years
43:03ago
43:04um about you know what is when we say
43:07what is inflation so when the feds you
43:09know says the inflation rate is whatever
43:11percent this this month or this quarter
43:13they're talking about the CPI the
43:15Consumer Price Index and so when I
43:20worked on the hill I actually had the
43:22opportunity I was like all right I'm
43:23going to figure out what the CPI thing
43:24is because it sounds like BS because
43:28when you're in school they teach you
43:30inflation is the mo is the supply of
43:32money how much money is in circulation
43:34right so the fed's printed what like 40
43:37percent more money in the past you know
43:39couple years since covid so I would
43:40argue inflation's more like 40 plus
43:42percent but the government will say no
43:44it's like four six or eight I mean it's
43:47changing but we're in that we've been in
43:49that range for the past couple of years
43:50so the CPI is just
43:53um it's a basket of consumer goods that
43:56people purchase and it's a very very big
43:58basket of stuff it's all sorts of stuff
44:00it's a lot of food and groceries and
44:02commodities things consumers buy so I I
44:06sat down with a statistician at the
44:09Bureau of Labor Statistics to ask some
44:12questions like how do you like what is
44:14the formula
44:15and it's it's actually not publicly
44:18available they won't even make it
44:20available for members of Congress and
44:22their staff why is that
44:25I didn't get an answer on that and then
44:27if you also look
44:29at over a period of time at the goods
44:32they as things like beef get more
44:35expensive so previously it was
44:39a more premium cut of beef is what would
44:41be used in the formula and then they
44:44would change it to a a lesser costly cut
44:48of beef like ground beef but is that
44:50because there's two ways to look at that
44:51you could say they've done that because
44:54they want to reduce the impact of the
44:57inflationary figures on their
44:59calculation or you could say they've
45:01priced people out of the premium cut now
45:02so they can't use it well we don't know
45:06because we don't have the opportunity
45:08the public doesn't have the opportunity
45:09to look at these formulas to really
45:11understand that but there's definitely a
45:14lot of tools that they have to make the
45:18numbers more favorable or to to to
45:22manipulate the numbers so it's really
45:25important I think just for normal people
45:28people who don't you know have the
45:30opportunity to you know spend hundreds
45:33of hours reading and studying Austrian
45:36economics just to know basic things
45:37about well what exactly is inflation how
45:41am I subjected to it how do I protect
45:43myself from that how do I plan for my
45:45future and I think that is the
45:48opportunity of of of Bitcoin because it
45:52is a way to protect yourself from that
45:55type of influence government influence
45:58and our money which is something that's
46:00at the end of the day it's it's it's
46:01it's it's your work yeah so we've just
46:04made a film about inflation me and Danny
46:06sat down the other day to write the
46:07script uh for the monologues over the
46:09top and one of the things we talked
46:11about is
46:12inflation is personal there is no
46:15formula that can explain it or can
46:18calculate inflation for everyone and
46:20it's a it's a pointless number what you
46:23spend your money on is entirely
46:24different from what I spent my money on
46:25and and actually this is where it should
46:27get quite easy because you should be
46:29able to
46:31create the list of things you buy how
46:33much you spend on rent
46:35car
46:36yeah uh food you should be able to put
46:39that in and then calculate what your
46:40personal inflation number is that should
46:42be very easy and I think we would all
46:44probably expect that to come in at
46:45around 20 now
46:47perhaps in the last year and I think
46:50that's what we need is your personal
46:51inflation number not some I mean this is
46:54what Eric Weinstein was talking about
46:55for a long time to us is like
46:59inflation is personal it is yeah I know
47:02that's an interesting idea people
47:04sharing that I actually I read um I saw
47:06a tweet not that long ago from a
47:08business owner in in the EU who said my
47:12um it was a restaurant owner and they
47:14said their electric bill was double what
47:16it was the month before that's almost a
47:20different kind of a different issue the
47:22whole energy thing is a whole other
47:23conversation but there's way worse ones
47:25than that there was one lady who put up
47:27a thing and her energy bill had gone
47:29from
47:30the cafe had gone from 10 000 to 58 000
47:35or something you have to close your door
47:37so you pay your power bill there are
47:39many many people in the UK have closed
47:41their businesses because they cannot pay
47:44their electricity they cannot afford to
47:46make their goods and I think that is one
47:48signal of the things that are to come I
47:50think we're at the very very beginning
47:51of our economic calamities globally
47:54which is why what what we're talking
47:56about what we do is just so important
47:58for this time yeah I need to read that
48:00deal in a clear article he's talking
48:01about why unwinding the greatest bubble
48:04in history and that's essentially what's
48:05happening I mean you are right the
48:06energy thing is different the energy
48:08problem in the UK Danny's not
48:09experiencing that in Australia you're
48:11not experiencing the same here I mean I
48:13know there are energy problems but I
48:15mean ours in Europe are an absolute
48:17crisis but that is due to a lack of a
48:20bit bigger issues yeah and a different
48:22set of issues yeah but it's still I can
48:24it's still a result of central economic
48:27planning
48:28and a bit more than that a yes Central
48:30economic plan because we don't have
48:33energy sovereignty in the UK anymore but
48:36also geopolitics has played into it but
48:38yeah I mean it it comes it still comes
48:40down to government
48:41but I haven't become a Libertarian
48:45um we should uh we should talk about
48:47your paper that was a long lead up to
48:49that it took about an hour to get to
48:51that it's fantastic
48:52um God I could talk about that stuff all
48:54day by the way um the intro was an hour
48:56wow okay yeah I mean some of the
48:58interviews are usually an hour
49:00um so you've worked on this paper
49:03um can I can I pull you up on one thing
49:05yeah
49:07why use the term crypto
49:10the crypto conundrum
49:12as opposed to bitcoin well just to make
49:14it uh relevant to a larger group of
49:17people I mean this paper was written for
49:19policy makers and so to them they don't
49:23see the difference well I think most
49:25understand
49:26the difference between Bitcoin and other
49:28cryptocurrencies but many of them don't
49:31they just Loop it all in the same in the
49:33same bucket actually Gensler does he's
49:35one of the few people who does
49:36understand the difference so okay just
49:38so people understand because you you
49:40work for the Chamber of digital Commerce
49:42or you run the chamber I'm the founder
49:44and the CEO okay so explain what they do
49:47who they are what they do so chamber of
49:48digital Commerce we were founded in 2014
49:51where the industry's first advocacy
49:54Organization for Bitcoin digital assets
49:57and blockchain Technologies we represent
50:01about 200 companies across the industry
50:04we are a non-profit we're headquartered
50:06in Washington DC and we are the
50:08advocates for this technology and our
50:10nation's capital okay so people have
50:13listened to this show it's what Bitcoin
50:15did it's not what blockchain did and not
50:17what crypto did you know what they're
50:19going to say because you've probably had
50:20the same arguments into criticisms and
50:22yada yada and then as a Libertarian I
50:26would say why why are you focusing on
50:28anything outside of Bitcoin why
50:30advocating for blockchain and uh crypto
50:34because Bitcoin is the thing that can
50:36fundamentally make the difference here
50:39crypto blockchain isn't I would argue
50:42well I would argue the free market
50:44should decide that okay so the laws and
50:47the regulations governing Bitcoin and
50:50other digital assets the laws aren't
50:52written I mean if you look at the I mean
50:55just for example in 2013 it was fencing
50:58who wrote the first guidance for Bitcoin
51:00and it didn't use the word Bitcoin it
51:02used the term convertible virtual
51:05currencies okay which would Encompass
51:07Bitcoin and other digital assets
51:09so I mean we
51:11our position it's technology neutral
51:15I believe I mean I'm a huge Bitcoin
51:18believer the majority of my net worth is
51:22in Bitcoin I am a Bitcoin maximalist at
51:24heart but I'm a free market person okay
51:27that's part too and so I don't think
51:30it's the chambers role to pick which
51:33cryptocurrencies are going to be the
51:34winners and losers our job is to make
51:37sure we have a legal environment that
51:39allows for the further development and
51:42investment in use of this technology in
51:44the United States and then consumers can
51:47decide where they want to put their
51:48money do you win any coins
51:51I have um that's a yes
51:55small a small amount of other things
51:58I've got a little bit of ethereum
52:00um I've got 0.25 underneath 0.25 yeah
52:04someone sent it to me and I've just
52:05never done anything with it yeah I mean
52:07I I watch it pretty closely because when
52:12you I think Bitcoin is different than
52:13every other cryptocurrency
52:15Bitcoins in its own bucket bitcoin's
52:18application is a store of value and I
52:21think in terms of I mean there's been a
52:23lot of cryptocurrencies who have tried
52:25to compete with Bitcoin to be the
52:27dominant
52:29store a value application Bitcoin is one
52:32we and we know that 20 years 100 years
52:35500 years from now Bitcoin is the store
52:37value
52:39so when you look at
52:40ethereum ethereum was built to be a
52:43smart contracts platform but there's a
52:45lot of competition there with Avalanche
52:49and polka dot Solana and you know many
52:51others I think we will have a dominant
52:54smart contracts system
52:57will it be ethereum will it be something
52:58else we don't know so you're an advocacy
53:01group
53:02um and I guess the work you're doing is
53:04is it's do you consider yourself similar
53:06to like Bitcoin policy Institute and all
53:08these other people who are trying to
53:10ensure there's accurate information that
53:13gets to policy makers rather than the
53:15we see in oh my gosh there's so
53:18much fun it's so bad I mean that's
53:19really what we were we launched in 2014
53:21so we were the first
53:23um group here in the United States to to
53:26operate and be advocates for this
53:29technology
53:31um
53:322013 was the year that
53:35the idea for the chamber came together
53:37we were coming off of Silk Road and
53:39mount Cox and there were three hearings
53:42on Capitol Hill in 2013 about Bitcoin
53:45and Silk Road
53:48um looking at the illicit Finance issues
53:51related to to bitcoin and most people in
53:55Washington just thought that Bitcoin was
53:58the currency of choice for criminals
54:00which like that was its only use case
54:03was to buy drugs it will never amount to
54:05anything more than that or it was dead
54:08because Mount gox collapsed and that was
54:10the that was some of the headlines back
54:12there Bitcoin broke it was hack it was
54:13dead it's like no this was an exchange
54:15this is not the technology itself so
54:17there was a lot of misconceptions there
54:20was a lot of misinformation so when we
54:23launched in 2014 we were addressing a
54:26lot of those early narrative issues and
54:29today they've evolved and they're a lot
54:31more complex the biggest one we're
54:33looking at now is the ESG garbage of how
54:36this impacts climate issues
54:38we argue it doesn't but it's really to
54:41me it's really someone who worked on
54:43Capitol Hill as someone who has been in
54:45DC my entire career it's really
54:47important that we have
54:49industry professionals on the ground
54:52serving as a resource to our policy
54:54makers so they're being educated By Us
54:57by people who know the technology who
54:58work on the technology not the media or
55:02not other groups who may have different
55:05incentives
55:06okay so you decided to write a paper on
55:10uh why the SEC has not approved an ETF
55:14yet something that's come up a lot and
55:17actually
55:18bitcoiners have mixed feelings on this
55:20some people absolutely don't give a
55:22about an ETF I don't want it some people
55:24do
55:26um that one side of the argument is uh
55:28that an ETF would open up the
55:31opportunity for more people to have
55:33exposure to bitcoin other people would
55:35argue that it breaks some of the kind of
55:37founding principles of what uh how how
55:39you should interact with Bitcoin
55:42um why did you decide to write this
55:45paper what was it that approach what was
55:47it that appealed to you and writing this
55:49when you listen to the detractors of
55:53Bitcoin in Washington a lot of them are
55:57saying we need more investor protections
55:59we need more consumer protections this
56:02technology is
56:04um it's dangerous there's so many scams
56:08uh and we're not going to support the
56:11growth of this technology until there's
56:13better investor protections and better
56:15Consumer Protections in place so I think
56:18the whole spot Bitcoin ETF debate really
56:22exposes that Washington double speak
56:24because if you are really someone who
56:27wants to see better consumer protections
56:30for the millions of people who own
56:32Bitcoin in America today
56:36the the easiest way the the best way to
56:40provide those investor protections is to
56:42allow retail investors to have access to
56:45a regulated product which is the spot
56:48Bitcoin ETF so if you're saying well we
56:51want we want investor protections but
56:53then you block the means of getting
56:54there why do you think that they've
56:56allowed Futures uh ETS but not spot ETFs
56:59well
57:02I it's not logic and reason nope I can
57:05tell you that uh there's a lot of
57:07conspiracy theories that have showed up
57:09on my feed over the past month or so
57:12since we've
57:13um released the paper and it's hard to
57:16say why I mean some of the conspiracies
57:19or theories
57:21um that I've read is
57:22is that the SEC knows what this would do
57:25for Bitcoin I believe when we do get a
57:29Bitcoin ETF and I say when because it's
57:31inevitable we will it's just when
57:34um it's going to open up potentially
57:36trillions of dollars of buying power on
57:39bitcoin because you have all the money
57:41that's sitting in the in brokerages
57:44under you know financial advisors a
57:48multi-trillion dollar industry there's a
57:50lot we know there is a wall of money
57:52there's a lot of pent-up demand for
57:54exposure to bitcoin Through The
57:57Brokerage and we know that because
57:59there's many other ways people are
58:01getting indirect exposure to Bitcoin
58:04today by buying things like shares of
58:07microstrategy which is indirectly like a
58:09way to get exposure to bitcoin or buying
58:11the Bitcoin mining indexes
58:14um or uh gbtc or other indirect ways to
58:19get exposure to bitcoin
58:22um so I think the SEC knows that this
58:24would take Bitcoin to a whole new level
58:27of adoption and they're blocking it so
58:32they're politicking it is absolutely
58:34politics yeah so uh
58:37Carey cancel is an interesting character
58:40um he showed up as somebody was
58:42educating people on
58:43blockchain was it at MIT he had a call
58:46yes he was a professor at MIT uh so he
58:48turns up at the SEC somebody who seems
58:50to clearly understand Bitcoin and
58:52clearly understand the difference
58:53between Bitcoin and ethereum oh it's
58:55absolutely very smart he does understand
58:57this at a technical level and assumption
59:00is I mean without knowing that he he has
59:02some bags of Bitcoin I assume and it
59:04joins an SEC with a very Pro Bitcoin has
59:06to purse uh who I think is a real Ally
59:09to the industry in in a fair way
59:12um I I believe I haven't interviewed her
59:14to spend time with her her belief is
59:16that uh
59:18she understands what Freedom means for
59:20Americans she sees Bitcoin as a freedom
59:21technology she's pleased they should
59:23have access to it
59:24and then everything I see from gen's Lab
59:27uh is one individual who's holding back
59:30the free choice for people to buy and
59:32have access to a Bitcoin ETF it based
59:35entirely on his career aspirations
59:38that's my
59:39outside observations of this character
59:42yeah maybe so he was asked under
59:44Congressional testimony earlier this
59:46year by uh in incentive banking by
59:51Senator Toomey who's the ranking member
59:53of the Senate Banking Committee yeah
59:54what why don't we have one or he was
59:57asked a question about Bitcoin ETFs and
59:59his response was and this is not
1:00:01verbatim but he said
1:00:03he wants to have oversight of the
1:00:06Bitcoin markets and if he had that he'd
1:00:09be more comfortable with moving forward
1:00:11with the Bitcoin ETF so that that so
1:00:13first off Bitcoin is a commodity
1:00:16chairman Gensler has said that as well
1:00:18so he agrees Bitcoin is a commodity
1:00:20under the cftc's jurisdiction different
1:00:22agency so he's saying he wants he wants
1:00:26jurisdiction over this so he wants to
1:00:28exchange is Regulators under the SEC yes
1:00:31yes and only Congress can really give
1:00:33him the authority to do that what's the
1:00:35complexity there in that
1:00:37um there's been very kind of people been
1:00:40very clear that Bitcoin is a commodity
1:00:42but coins are very clearly
1:00:44securities
1:00:46um an exchange is dealing in one uh one
1:00:50commodity so you list any like coinbase
1:00:53Gemini crack right so they have their
1:00:55coin plus other cryptocurrencies yeah
1:00:58registration regime a commodity multiple
1:01:01Securities how how do like whose
1:01:04jurisdiction is it multiple
1:01:05jurisdictions yeah so I've had the
1:01:07opportunity to meet directly with
1:01:08chairman Gensler just in the past a
1:01:11couple of months as well chairman Benham
1:01:13the chair of the cftc so I had the
1:01:16opportunity to ask them privately and
1:01:18directly
1:01:20um some of the conflicting statements
1:01:22between the two agencies where chairman
1:01:25gunzler has said Bitcoin is a commodity
1:01:28but he thinks everything else is a
1:01:29security and then cftc chairman Benham
1:01:33has said Bitcoin and ethereum are
1:01:36Commodities and then there's many other
1:01:39cryptocurrencies that will that are also
1:01:41Commodities without specifically naming
1:01:43them so
1:01:45ask chairman Gensler so
1:01:49how does any how does the private sector
1:01:51navigate this and you look at exchanges
1:01:55who have the listing of multiple tokens
1:01:58they're getting different statements
1:02:00from two different regulators
1:02:02how do you move forward
1:02:04and it this is this is one of the most
1:02:08um I think important regulatory debates
1:02:10for the industry happening in Washington
1:02:13today and it's clear that the way the
1:02:15exchanges are regulated today is going
1:02:18to change how do you think it's going to
1:02:20change so I what I understand to be and
1:02:24I can't speak for chairman Kerry Gensler
1:02:27but what I understand to be his agenda
1:02:31is he he well he has said multiple times
1:02:34that the exchanges need to come in and
1:02:35register
1:02:37but then you ask well register as what
1:02:40because they're
1:02:43they're not ats's they're not National
1:02:46Securities exchanges so what is the the
1:02:49how do they register what do they
1:02:51register as
1:02:52and so
1:02:54I believe he is working on building a
1:02:57new a whole new type of registration
1:03:01for crypto exchanges
1:03:03crypto markets that will have and he's
1:03:06outlined this the last time he testified
1:03:08and Senate banking just a couple of
1:03:09weeks ago he talked about this dual
1:03:12licensing where you would be registered
1:03:14with both the cftc and the SEC so a lot
1:03:18of this is this is what is being built
1:03:20today in Washington and there's going to
1:03:22be winners and losers in this process
1:03:23what does the registration mean what is
1:03:25it he's trying to achieve with these
1:03:28registrations that so once if you're
1:03:30registered as some type of Exchange in
1:03:34ATS the national Securities Exchange a
1:03:36crypto Market you're under the sec's
1:03:38jurisdiction so that means that they you
1:03:41know everything listed on your exchange
1:03:43has to be registered with the Securities
1:03:45and Exchange Commission so you're
1:03:47subjects to the full disclosure regime
1:03:49as well as other laws and regulations as
1:03:52the whole SEC
1:03:53regulatory framework
1:03:55do you think the security Frameworks uh
1:03:58are helpful or do you think uh do you
1:04:02think
1:04:03do you think we've moved on from uh
1:04:05because like the the SEC rules or the
1:04:08creation of Securities goes back on like
1:04:10100 years I don't know you will know
1:04:12better than me oh yeah like almost
1:04:14almost a century are they fit for
1:04:15purpose no
1:04:17or does
1:04:18what purpose do they serve
1:04:21is this just investor protection and do
1:04:24we need protection I mean is it
1:04:26libertarian I assume so yeah I mean from
1:04:28a philosophical perspective I mean
1:04:33I think we need a solid rule of law and
1:04:35I think when it comes to making
1:04:37Investments
1:04:39you know the individual should be
1:04:41responsible for how they decide to
1:04:42invest their money like I don't think
1:04:44the government should be involved in
1:04:47steering people and and a direction of
1:04:50what to invest in over or not I think
1:04:53that's a personal decision that needs to
1:04:55lie with the individual but in order for
1:04:57the individual to have a fair way of
1:05:00doing that you need a strong rule of law
1:05:02so if you have Bad actors if you have
1:05:04people who are lying or committing fraud
1:05:06we need a way to apprehend them we need
1:05:09to get that out of the system right so
1:05:10enforcement is important
1:05:13um and then you also need Fair
1:05:14disclosures so when you're investing in
1:05:17a company or something else uh it's I
1:05:21think it's important that you know
1:05:22everything about that company before you
1:05:24make the investment so you can make an
1:05:26informed decision
1:05:27and so the you know that that's part of
1:05:31the sec's
1:05:33purpose and we detail that in the paper
1:05:35we go into the 34 actually the 33 act
1:05:38and then the 34 act the 34 Act
1:05:42details the role of the SEC and at its
1:05:46foundation the SEC is a disclosure
1:05:50regulator as opposed to a merit
1:05:52regulator so a disclosure regulator
1:05:54meaning the SEC is not picking the
1:05:57winners and losers they're not going
1:05:59through all the different things that
1:06:00investors want to bring to the public
1:06:02markets and say okay we like this
1:06:04Bitcoin thing but we don't like uh you
1:06:07know this ethereum thing so you get to
1:06:09go forward and you don't that's not how
1:06:11the that's not how the SEC was designed
1:06:14by Congress again they get their
1:06:15Authority from Congress it's everyone is
1:06:18subject to the same disclosure regime so
1:06:21if the investor meets the disclosure
1:06:23requirements
1:06:25then the end the public is to decide
1:06:28what they want to invest in and so the
1:06:32spot Bitcoin ETF is one example where
1:06:35the SEC is acting as a merit regulator
1:06:38okay so they're operating outside
1:06:40outside of their mandate outside of
1:06:43their jurisdiction and it's important
1:06:45that Congress Reigns this in because if
1:06:48this keeps going if they continue to act
1:06:51as a merit regulator this could have
1:06:53implications for the entire Capital
1:06:55markets not just Bitcoin okay so in
1:06:58terms of uh grayscale I know there's
1:07:00been lots of applications for ETS but
1:07:02grayscale and Barry Silva has been very
1:07:04clear that he um he is suing the SEC
1:07:07what's the status of their application
1:07:11and uh is there any historical precedent
1:07:14where the SEC has been sued before and
1:07:16lost
1:07:17so
1:07:18their ETF was denied so both grayscale
1:07:22and betwise had spot Bitcoin ETF
1:07:25applications that were denied this
1:07:27summer okay there's a lot of history
1:07:29there and that's what we detail in the
1:07:31paper but grayscale has appealed uh the
1:07:37denial so it is going to court it's
1:07:40probably going to be a long process it's
1:07:44it's literally just getting started but
1:07:47ultimately the courts will decide if
1:07:50this goes forward and or not if the if
1:07:52grayscale gets to convert into an
1:07:56ETF but they're appealing on two grounds
1:08:00one is a violation of the administrative
1:08:02procedures act so there's there um for
1:08:07the for the SEC is acting arbitrarily
1:08:10and capricious so they're picking
1:08:12winners and losers they're acting as a
1:08:14merit regulator not a disclosure
1:08:16regulator the administrative procedures
1:08:18act are the laws that apply to the
1:08:20agencies to The Regulators themselves
1:08:23you have to follow a certain process to
1:08:25to to operate or to bring new uh
1:08:28regulations or new laws onto industry
1:08:33um so I find it kind of interesting that
1:08:35The Regulators
1:08:37are being
1:08:39alleged of not following the rules that
1:08:42apply to them as they're trying to put
1:08:44new rules on on all of us and then the
1:08:48other piece that grayscale is appealing
1:08:51on is discrimination of issuers and that
1:08:54they're treating the Bitcoin ETF issuers
1:08:58different than other commodity ETF
1:09:01issuers which goes back to our earlier
1:09:03point that Bitcoin has constantly been
1:09:06set this higher bar
1:09:07in almost every area where it touches
1:09:11government yeah so in it this is a very
1:09:13specific example of where Bitcoin is
1:09:16being held to a higher standard so you
1:09:18mentioned commissioner Hester purse who
1:09:21is uh I think served an incredibly
1:09:24important role at the SEC today because
1:09:27she is who's calling out this bad
1:09:28behavior constantly calling out what is
1:09:31it she said like um whenever you I can't
1:09:34remember what she says but she whenever
1:09:36there's a decision she disagrees she
1:09:39puts out one of them yes I descent yeah
1:09:42and her Descent of Bitcoin ETFs these
1:09:46denials she has said we are holding this
1:09:48industry to a higher standard so are we
1:09:51gonna
1:09:52do this moving forward with with all
1:09:55other
1:09:56ETF or other asset classes what about
1:09:58everything that came before it
1:10:01um so maybe I'll just walk through a
1:10:03little bit of the history yeah kind of
1:10:04what exactly I'm talking about so in
1:10:062013 that's when the first
1:10:09um Bitcoin ETF application
1:10:12was submitted to the SEC and that was by
1:10:14the Winklevoss twins
1:10:16yeah okay yep there's the timeline right
1:10:18there so
1:10:19when that was denied it took four years
1:10:22to deny it
1:10:24I guess so wow
1:10:27um when it was denied
1:10:29the SEC and their denial stated the
1:10:33concerns of Market manipulation that
1:10:35Bitcoin markets are subject to
1:10:36manipulation
1:10:39um but they in that denial they outline
1:10:41the path forward and it said but if you
1:10:44have these surveillance sharing
1:10:46contracts in place then that would be a
1:10:49path to address Our concern
1:10:51so and In fairness the markets were
1:10:54pretty manipulated back then
1:10:56um back in 2013.
1:11:07but I just remember back in 2013 it was
1:11:10like it was pretty obvious what was
1:11:12going on
1:11:13so they wanted these surveillance
1:11:15sharing contracts in place so in 2017 is
1:11:20when the Bitcoin
1:11:23um Futures contracts were launched on
1:11:25the CME
1:11:26so so
1:11:28when the CME
1:11:31um launched the Futures Contract these
1:11:33surveillance sharing agreements were in
1:11:36place that infrastructure had been put
1:11:37in place and so then the the industry
1:11:40tried again after that to bring in an
1:11:43ETF to Market and so they had met the
1:11:47the standard that the SEC had laid out
1:11:49before
1:11:51and now they said okay we have these
1:11:53surveillance sharing agreements in place
1:11:55let's try again and then they got denied
1:11:58again the industry got denied again and
1:12:01in the next set of denials it and this
1:12:05is not in uh verbatim but basically
1:12:07they're saying okay you don't have to
1:12:09just have the infrastructure to address
1:12:11Market manipulation you have to
1:12:12essentially prove the market
1:12:15manipulation is not happening again no
1:12:17other industry has been told to do this
1:12:19is the goal post we're just going to put
1:12:21them over here that's exactly right yeah
1:12:23yeah and so the what so then the SEC and
1:12:27their denial is put forward kind of the
1:12:29criteria of how do you address that this
1:12:32issue of proving the market manipulation
1:12:35isn't happening and they said we want to
1:12:36see that price Discovery is happening on
1:12:38the CME or the Futures contracts trade
1:12:41not on the the Bitcoin the spot
1:12:44exchanges and there's five Bitcoin
1:12:47exchanges that make up the reference
1:12:48rate for the Futures contracts
1:12:52um
1:12:53Kraken and coinbase and three others
1:12:58they're detailed in the paper I don't
1:13:00have them Gemini memorized
1:13:03no Finance is not probably bit for next
1:13:05I'd guess bitfinex
1:13:07I don't remember yeah there's five of
1:13:09them yeah so then the industry spent
1:13:12years developing the research to show
1:13:16where price Discovery is happening
1:13:18Fidelity and bitwise uh both conducted
1:13:22their own independent studies and they
1:13:24were able to show with empirical data to
1:13:29a statistically significant basis that
1:13:31price Discovery happens on the CME not
1:13:34on the spot exchanges and there were
1:13:35nine reports that looked at the exact
1:13:38same thing one was an academic study
1:13:40there was one that had a flaw they're
1:13:42all in our in our report we will put it
1:13:45in their show notes so people can access
1:13:46it but
1:13:47all that information was provided to the
1:13:50SEC and then this year bitwise and
1:13:53grayscale had their applications and
1:13:55they were denied so the Gold Coast was
1:13:58moved again
1:13:59so
1:14:00the same because of Market the concerns
1:14:03of Market manipulation is the inherent
1:14:06issue right the inherent concern and
1:14:09then
1:14:09um
1:14:10you know I already stated this but
1:14:12chairman gunsler was asked under
1:14:14Congressional testimony by Senator
1:14:16Toomey why and he said well you know now
1:14:19I want to have jurisdiction over the
1:14:22Bitcoin exchanges that's that which the
1:14:25SEC doesn't have the authority to do
1:14:27that only Congress can give the SEC the
1:14:30authority to do that because they'd have
1:14:32to expand their jurisdiction so novik
1:14:34talked the other day to us about a new
1:14:36thing that was put in for the cftc to
1:14:39have jurisdiction of spot Market
1:14:41oversight yeah yeah a whole another
1:14:43conversation yeah who who was it who was
1:14:46who's the synagogue committee about to
1:14:48introduce that bill all right so uh it's
1:14:50very clear they just is it do you think
1:14:52they don't want it to happen or do you
1:14:54think Gensler is uh just trying to play
1:14:57power games so under the previous
1:15:00chairman of Jay Clayton so the companies
1:15:03who had the issuers who had Bitcoin ETF
1:15:05applications if you talk to them they
1:15:09will tell you that they were they
1:15:11believed they were going to get their
1:15:14applications approved yeah and Jake
1:15:16Clayton was uh he was engaging with the
1:15:18industry I mean he didn't even come to
1:15:20consensus he was engaged so the SEC was
1:15:22working very very closely with the
1:15:24issuers they were on the final final
1:15:27details of bringing these products to
1:15:29Market but then the administration
1:15:31changed and when Gensler took the the
1:15:34helm
1:15:36um the term some of the companies has
1:15:38used is the Iron Curtain came down and
1:15:41they were no longer in communication
1:15:43with the SEC and they no longer have a
1:15:46path forward okay so what are the next
1:15:48steps because you you're saying this is
1:15:50inevitable what do you think the steps
1:15:52are to be getting that's what ETF
1:15:54approved so
1:15:56right now it's going into two different
1:15:59directions since we there's the legal
1:16:02but the Iron Curtain at the SEC and the
1:16:04SEC it you know it seems pretty clear
1:16:06they're not going to move forward
1:16:09um so now it's it's going to the courts
1:16:11and it's going to Congress so grayscale
1:16:13is the first to initiate you know a
1:16:16legal action
1:16:18um and the courts will weigh in and then
1:16:21the other assets like how independent
1:16:25are the courts on this kind of issue are
1:16:28they politically influenced are they
1:16:30completely independent uh well they're
1:16:33supposed to be completely independent
1:16:34and and who are that but
1:16:37is there any like I say is there a
1:16:39historical precedent with the SEC being
1:16:41sued and has anyone been successful
1:16:44um
1:16:45I assume
1:16:47documented
1:16:49F's against the SEC but in terms of our
1:16:51industry I don't I don't think so okay I
1:16:54think in our industry that hasn't
1:16:55happened yet okay and then uh the other
1:16:57the other path is it's kind of because
1:17:00all of the sec's authority comes from
1:17:02Congress so Congress could pass a law
1:17:05changing uh the direction that the SEC
1:17:08has taken is there any action is there
1:17:11any bills that are being considered for
1:17:12this
1:17:14uh so we have shared this report today
1:17:18with a hundred different members of
1:17:20Congress and we are getting uh
1:17:24bipartisan support across the aisles
1:17:26right I have both Republican and
1:17:29Democrat members who have said they
1:17:32believe this is an injustice and they
1:17:35want a spot Bitcoin ETF to come to
1:17:38Market and so there are pretty
1:17:41significant efforts brewing and Congress
1:17:43to bring oversight to the SEC and to get
1:17:46this to Market as soon as possible do
1:17:48you think there's any potential that a
1:17:51spot ETF for Bitcoin while good for
1:17:54American investors is potentially not
1:17:58good for Bitcoin and let me uh explain
1:18:00where I'm coming from with this
1:18:03um a wall of money as we've talked about
1:18:05could come in for Bitcoin
1:18:07but ideally Bitcoin is decentralized we
1:18:10want mining to be distributed
1:18:11distributed around the world but we also
1:18:14want ownership to be distributed around
1:18:15the world we don't want to have large
1:18:17pockets of centralized Bitcoin uh about
1:18:21is it 40 of Bitcoin mining in hours in
1:18:24the US yeah this now when 40 was in
1:18:27China people talked about this a lot now
1:18:29it's 40 of the US people are talking
1:18:30about it less I'm not sure it's that's
1:18:32that high I think it might be can we
1:18:34find that out Danny but but either way
1:18:37right you don't want centralized pockets
1:18:39of people holding other people's Bitcoin
1:18:40yeah well also would it be you know if
1:18:43Bitcoin is like as people believe will
1:18:46be the future money of the world
1:18:48I don't know the answer to this but
1:18:50is there is there a is there a risk not
1:18:54only to bitcoin but uh would it create a
1:18:57disparity so Cambridge estimate it's 37
1:19:00okay yeah all right is there is a
1:19:02December 21 yes it's probably higher now
1:19:05uh it like is there a risk in that there
1:19:08is a disproportionate held by America
1:19:10say
1:19:1250 I wouldn't even know what the
1:19:14concentration is ownership I wonder if
1:19:15you can find that out if a Warner money
1:19:18came into the US you could talk about a
1:19:20large very significant percentage of
1:19:22Bitcoin is held in America by Americans
1:19:25or American institutions and I wonder if
1:19:27that's ultimately good or it doesn't
1:19:29matter I don't know I don't know the
1:19:31answer well the United States is the
1:19:32largest economy in the world today the
1:19:35so I mean a lot of the world's wealth is
1:19:38here in the United States so I think
1:19:40that's more just emblematic of
1:19:43how you know different economies are
1:19:46kind of dispersed today but that has
1:19:48negative uh there's negative
1:19:50consequences for other nations that the
1:19:53high price of the dollar at the moment
1:19:54and dollar being the global Reserve
1:19:56currency has that causes problems for
1:19:59other countries uh not just dollars
1:20:01exorbitant privilege yeah it is yeah it
1:20:04is uh so I just wonder if like if an ETF
1:20:07brought a wall of money I don't know
1:20:09there'll probably be some smarter people
1:20:10than me who can write in understand this
1:20:12and say it doesn't matter but I just
1:20:14wonder if that creates some kind of uh
1:20:16disproportionate uh
1:20:19if too many Americans hold Bitcoin not
1:20:21too many Americans hold Bitcoin but too
1:20:23much of the total uh amount of Bitcoin
1:20:26is held by I think every American whole
1:20:28Bitcoin but I want every Bangladeshi to
1:20:30hold Bitcoin and every Indian and every
1:20:33English person and I think the point is
1:20:34that it wouldn't be every American
1:20:36holding Bitcoin it'd be one company
1:20:37holding Bitcoin never has exposure
1:20:39so and who has that exposure is it just
1:20:41rich people again good exposure right
1:20:43like I want I want the little like we
1:20:45want to close the work closer wealth
1:20:46divide
1:20:47um yeah one of the one of the
1:20:50areas that I'm really interested in
1:20:52we've been trying to introduce more uh
1:20:54progressives into our our show because
1:20:56it doesn't matter whether you're
1:20:57conservative libertarian or Progressive
1:21:00Bitcoin is getting exposed to a wider
1:21:02group of people and a lot of fud comes
1:21:04from the progressives so we've been
1:21:05trying to get more progresses on the
1:21:06show to defeat the flood and one of the
1:21:09areas that you can use that is it's
1:21:11actually progresses hate the wealth
1:21:13divide they blame billionaires but
1:21:15actually what they don't understand is a
1:21:16lot of the policies they advocate for uh
1:21:19makes the wealth divide words worse one
1:21:21of the things about Bitcoin is reducing
1:21:23the wealth divide so ideally Bitcoin
1:21:25would reduce the wealth divide but but
1:21:28would an ETF be counter productive to
1:21:31that because it it exposes like who who
1:21:35uses an ETF product is it people with
1:21:37money already well retail investors
1:21:39that's who this would benefit in my
1:21:40opinion a a smart Bitcoin ETF the
1:21:42biggest benefit would be for the retail
1:21:45investor well what is the demographic of
1:21:47retail investors is it middle class is
1:21:49the middle to Upper glass is it I don't
1:21:52it's everyone that's not an accredited
1:21:54investor but but who who's in that
1:21:56retail class of not accredited investor
1:21:59because just the normal people but
1:22:01normal normal people can be anything
1:22:03from lower like yeah but yeah I don't
1:22:07know it's wage earners it's wage earners
1:22:09it's people who it's mostly people who
1:22:12have a job that comes with retirement
1:22:14benefits and 401ks yeah that would be an
1:22:16interesting demo so it could be
1:22:18everything from a school teacher that
1:22:20makes you know Thirty forty thousand
1:22:22dollars a year it could be uh you know
1:22:25someone who
1:22:27but they can already buy Bitcoin you can
1:22:29so absolutely
1:22:31so you can buy Bitcoin directly through
1:22:34going to an exchange you can go to a
1:22:37famous Bitcoin Meetup uh you can buy you
1:22:41don't need an ETF to buy Bitcoin but a
1:22:44lot but the problem the challenge with
1:22:46that is that in order to understand how
1:22:49to safely navigate through in exchange
1:22:52to buy Bitcoin today you have to do some
1:22:54research and there's a lot of landmines
1:22:57out there there's a lot of there's a lot
1:22:59of frauds in this space if you don't
1:23:01understand just how the technology works
1:23:03if you lose your keys like you're
1:23:05screwed and so for some people who want
1:23:09to go down that path to understand how
1:23:12this works
1:23:14they should be able to to buy Bitcoin
1:23:17directly and self-custody so this is for
1:23:20everybody who's not willing to do that
1:23:22or a lot of people when they make
1:23:24investments they they do so through
1:23:27their financial advisors they have
1:23:29separate money that's set aside it's
1:23:31their savings it's what they invest to
1:23:34protect their purchasing power and they
1:23:37have professionals who have a fiduciary
1:23:39responsibility to oversee those funds
1:23:43and so this opens up an opportunity for
1:23:46that that money that set aside and
1:23:49retirement funds manage their brokerages
1:23:53to invest that directly in Bitcoin so if
1:23:55you want to buy Bitcoin today you can't
1:23:58do it through your financial advisor if
1:24:00you go to your financial advisor and say
1:24:02I would you know I've been reading about
1:24:03Bitcoin and I I want to allocate you
1:24:05know part of my savings to this I need
1:24:07can you go make that for me they say we
1:24:10can't help you with that you have to I
1:24:12can't even talk to you about it I'm not
1:24:13allowed to you have to go do that on
1:24:15their own isn't that a good thing
1:24:17that we encourage people to do the work
1:24:19we encourage people to understand what
1:24:22Bitcoin is to understand what a node is
1:24:25to understand private keys if we make it
1:24:28too easy do we potentially risk uh
1:24:33weakening Bitcoin I like the I think in
1:24:37a a strong and a healthy economy you
1:24:40have many options and you allow the
1:24:43individual to pick which option is most
1:24:46appropriate for them so what about you
1:24:48know come on we're all lazy we will end
1:24:50up picking the easy option that's well
1:24:52not everybody I mean you didn't I didn't
1:24:55um I didn't have the choice and when it
1:24:58comes to spot Bitcoin ETFs in the United
1:25:00States we're behind because there are
1:25:03ETFs trading all over the world today so
1:25:06the US typically is the first to bring
1:25:09new Innovative products to Market but
1:25:11when it it comes to bitcoin
1:25:14or not and so we have Bitcoin spot
1:25:18Bitcoin ETFs that are trading Canada and
1:25:21Germany Switzerland and many other
1:25:23places and we can look at how what those
1:25:27demographics look like and today there
1:25:30have been no instances no reported
1:25:32instances of uh hacks or thefts or
1:25:36things going wrong oh no no I understand
1:25:39I understand that but but at the same
1:25:41time
1:25:42not your key is not your Bitcoin thank
1:25:44you Andreas is
1:25:47it's a very important flag for Bitcoin
1:25:50let's talk about that a lot I agree we
1:25:52talked about management private Keys now
1:25:54look I empathize with what you're saying
1:25:55my dad there is zero chance he could buy
1:26:00store and protect his private keys if
1:26:02you listen down I'm really sorry but
1:26:03you're rubbish like he can barely use a
1:26:06remote control
1:26:07um so I get it and there are going to be
1:26:10people who either don't have the means
1:26:12don't have the the capabilities or don't
1:26:14have the time or the interest but you
1:26:17know that but you know the solution for
1:26:18my father is that I do it for him and I
1:26:21manage his private but you can't manage
1:26:23everybody's private no no but I can do
1:26:24my father's I can I I manage my
1:26:26children's private keys and they have
1:26:28gradually being educated and
1:26:30you know at some point I'll hand their
1:26:31private keys to them but and I'm only
1:26:34challenging you because this is what
1:26:36other people will bring up
1:26:38I see the benefits of both sides but
1:26:40whilst we want to advocate for a strong
1:26:42economy and advocate for uh like the
1:26:45expansion of Bitcoin also we should be
1:26:47advocating for a strong decentralized
1:26:50robust Bitcoin and a community that
1:26:52manages its private keys and I worry
1:26:55that an ETF warps some of that
1:26:58well and and that is somebody knowing my
1:27:01net wealth will take a massive like
1:27:04massive leap if there's a an ETF
1:27:07approved yeah well again in a in a
1:27:10strong economy you have lots of
1:27:11different options that also includes
1:27:13lots of different Bitcoin ETF options I
1:27:16I think it would be detrimental if you
1:27:18only had one yeah that's only one
1:27:20company move forward I think there
1:27:21should be and there's been 16 companies
1:27:24in the US who have who issuers who have
1:27:27applied for a spot Bitcoin ETF so you
1:27:30want many different options you want you
1:27:32want strong disclosures so investors can
1:27:34make those decisions and for those and
1:27:36and this could be the first step for a
1:27:38lot of people it's like going and
1:27:40managing your own private Keys that's
1:27:41like swimming in the ocean well a lot of
1:27:43people are afraid of the ocean because
1:27:44they don't they can't see they don't
1:27:46they don't know but they're more
1:27:47comfortable getting at a swimming pool
1:27:48so like the Bitcoin spot ETF is like
1:27:51getting in a swimming pool you get
1:27:53comfortable with the water and then once
1:27:55you're comfortable and you start
1:27:56learning about it then maybe they'll be
1:27:57more comfortable jumping in the ocean
1:27:59and managing their own private keys but
1:28:01I think it is important that we have
1:28:03many different options for many
1:28:05different ranges of people because we
1:28:06are a very diverse economy and again the
1:28:10government coming in and saying you
1:28:11can't have this so you can't have that
1:28:13that's not the role of the regulator
1:28:15that's fair and we need to ensure that
1:28:17they are operating within their mandates
1:28:20and their Authority because if that goes
1:28:21unchecked that can have significant
1:28:23consequences for society be in the uh
1:28:26the being the first approved ETF has a
1:28:29massive Advantage absolutely we saw that
1:28:31with the Bitcoin Futures ETFs all the uh
1:28:34I I mean I can't remember who the first
1:28:35one was but I know everyone which
1:28:37followed it that you know when you
1:28:39compare the trading volumes there was
1:28:40significantly it was over a billion
1:28:42dollars yeah so do you think if when we
1:28:45find it to the point where one is
1:28:46approved they will have to approve them
1:28:48all at the same time I I sincerely hope
1:28:51that the SEC is organized organized
1:28:54enough to have a fair process in place
1:28:57to say okay the industry's been working
1:28:59for a decade there's 16 companies who
1:29:01have tried to do this we need to come up
1:29:03with the process to ensure that we do
1:29:06this in a fair way and we don't create a
1:29:08Bitcoin ETF Monopoly because that is the
1:29:11risk and so one of our Advisory board
1:29:13members is Paul Atkins who was an SEC
1:29:16commissioner and we had the opportunity
1:29:18to talk to him and he was there when the
1:29:20first gold ETFs were brought to Market
1:29:24and it was a similar kind of situation
1:29:26where there was one company who had been
1:29:29working for years to bring one to Market
1:29:31and then several years later there were
1:29:33a few more who went in just the way that
1:29:36the timelines worked out it was one of
1:29:38those companies who kind of came in at
1:29:40the tail end and they were going to be
1:29:41first and Paul said wait wait wait we
1:29:44can't just let this company go first
1:29:46when there's another company who's been
1:29:48working for years with us to get all the
1:29:49infrastructure in place and so they came
1:29:51up with the process to bring them out in
1:29:54a fair way so I I sincerely hope when
1:29:57when this moves forward there there is a
1:29:59process to ensure it's done an equitable
1:30:01way for the issuers well if somebody
1:30:03wants to I think this is about this this
1:30:04is a critical Aunt this is a critical
1:30:06on-ramp so in 2013 we a critical on-ramp
1:30:10was Unleashed and that was coinbase we
1:30:12saw the coinbase effect 2013 was a
1:30:15massive bull market for the industry
1:30:17because before there was coinbase you
1:30:19had to go to like Mount Cox to buy
1:30:21Bitcoin which was not a you know local
1:30:23Bitcoin or you had to go to like a
1:30:25sketchy Bitcoin Meetup and like you know
1:30:28do this whole thing this whole dance in
1:30:29person definitely not the safest way to
1:30:31do anything so this is another this
1:30:34could be the ETF will have have another
1:30:36effect it's a way to open up an on-ramp
1:30:40so the more on-ramps the more ways we
1:30:42have for people to get exposure to
1:30:45bitcoin the better I mean it's the same
1:30:47thing right I'm still going to change it
1:30:49I think the more ways we have people to
1:30:50access and hold private Keys the better
1:30:54but you got to meet people where they
1:30:55are too because that that is a big leap
1:30:57for a lot of people and it's it's
1:31:00putting a lot of expectations in the
1:31:02same expectations on everybody and I
1:31:04think we've got to meet people where
1:31:06they are if we want them to go on this
1:31:08journey with us
1:31:10I still challenging but look look I
1:31:11understand what you're saying but still
1:31:13challenge it but okay fair enough so
1:31:16just come to the time if people want to
1:31:18learn more about this where would you
1:31:19send them to so this paper is available
1:31:23for free download on our website at
1:31:26digitalchamber.org this is one very
1:31:29specific example where I think we've
1:31:31been able to really highlight where this
1:31:33industry is being treated differently
1:31:36but this issue is happening across the
1:31:37entire federal government you're seeing
1:31:40it in AML laws you're seeing it in the
1:31:42tax laws you're seeing it
1:31:45uh in a lot of the legislation pending
1:31:48before Congress today I think these
1:31:51policy fights for Bitcoin these this is
1:31:54the fight of my generation and I think
1:31:56it's absolutely important that we as as
1:31:59bitcoiners and people who care about
1:32:01this technology understand these
1:32:04political fights these legal fights
1:32:06because if we get the policy wrong it
1:32:09can totally skew our future and it's
1:32:11going to have an impact on how people
1:32:14have access to this technology so we're
1:32:17really fighting for fair access so
1:32:18everybody can participate in this
1:32:21peaceful opting out of the central
1:32:23economic uh regime and you you see this
1:32:27in you know all areas of law and this is
1:32:29a very significant undertaking for for
1:32:32any organization but that really is the
1:32:35purpose of the Chamber of digital
1:32:37Commerce to be on the ground to
1:32:39understand these legal fights to
1:32:40understand these policy fights and to
1:32:42fight for the absolute best laws
1:32:44possible for the industry
1:32:46you just made a trailer there with your
1:32:48last about one minute that we could put
1:32:50out to advertise this which was
1:32:51brilliant uh that wider conversation I
1:32:53think that's a whole new podcast and I
1:32:55think we should we should do this yeah
1:32:57um we will be back around January time
1:33:00um and I I would like to sit there with
1:33:02you more again uh I'd like to expand on
1:33:04that at the start of the conversation we
1:33:05had as well because I think that it's
1:33:06super interesting uh Parian this was
1:33:09fascinating and um I really appreciate
1:33:11coming on we will direct people to the
1:33:13digital Chamber of Commerce uh direct
1:33:15them to the paper and directly direct
1:33:17them to you yourself uh but some people
1:33:20are lazy and don't check the show notes
1:33:21or any specific addresses you want to
1:33:23send people to
1:33:24uh so we're active on Twitter at
1:33:27digitalchamber or my personal is at
1:33:29Parian DC okay we will share those in
1:33:32the show notes um good luck with this
1:33:33this was a fascinating chat and uh yeah
1:33:35hopefully we'll sit down and do this
1:33:37again soon I'm sorry about yesterday
1:33:38yeah no worries I look forward to it
1:33:40thank you

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