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Why We Still Need to Read Books—and Remember Our History | Dr. Wilfred McClay — Transcript

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0:05Welcome to the Liberty Show, where we
0:07talk about American classical education
0:08and invite you to join our efforts to
0:10improve the moral and intellectual
0:12virtue of the next generation. I'm
0:14Matthew Kirby. I'm the CEO of Liberty
0:16Classical Schools, where our mission is
0:19to improve the hearts and minds of
0:21students in K12 American classical
0:23charter schools that emphasize virtuous
0:26living, traditional learning, and civic
0:28responsibility.
0:30If you'd like to learn more about us,
0:31encourage you to read libertychools.org.
0:35Want to introduce my guest today is Dr.
0:38Wilfr Mcclelay. He is an acclaimed
0:40historian. He is the author of the
0:42widely praised Land of Hope, which is
0:44the American history narrative that we
0:46use in our schools. I would certainly
0:49commend it to you. Dr. Mcclelay is the
0:51Victor Davis Hansen Chair in Classical
0:53History and Western Civilization at
0:55Hillsdale College. He earned his
0:57undergraduate degree from St. John's
0:59College, which is directly across the
1:01street from my alma mater, the Naval
1:03Academy, by the way. And he earned his
1:05PhD from John's Hopkins. He's taught at
1:07a number of universities, including the
1:09University of Oklahoma, Georgetown,
1:12Tulain, John Hopkins, the University of
1:15Dallas, and the University of Tennessee
1:17in Chattanooga. Dr. Dr. Mccclelay is a
1:20member of the US Commission on the
1:21Semiquen Centennial, which has been
1:24charged with planning the celebration of
1:25our nation's 250th birthday, which will
1:28occur later this year and summer. Thank
1:32uh know that you're going to enjoy this
1:34interview between Dr. Mcclelay and I.
1:36Thanks for joining us. So, we started
1:38our partnership with Hillsdale back in
1:41about 2012, 2013 before we opened our
1:44first school in 2014. And at that time
1:47the Barney Charter School Initiative was
1:49uh about one and a half people. There
1:51was not really a full-time
1:53>> staff like Phil Kilgore
1:55>> knew Phil very well
1:56>> and uh and Dr. Moore and
1:59>> um and at that time sort of the
2:02technological production of the college
2:04was pretty minimal and since that time
2:07it has really just exploded and much to
2:09the college's benefit. I think
2:10>> I think to the in the benefit if I may
2:12say of the world
2:13>> of the world I would agree
2:15>> we are I I mean one way I the long the
2:19uh course that I did the online course
2:21which I think they call named it the
2:23American story uh at one point um I mean
2:28the first year out I probably shouldn't
2:31say these numbers because they may not
2:33be right but but I remember being told
2:35that it we had 160,000
2:38>> people who who had completed the course
2:41which that's it's easy to get big
2:43numbers for people to start right
2:45>> but to complete right
2:46>> a tw 26 or how many for how many
2:50episodes it has um that's that's really
2:53something and that I think it's a
2:54testament to the degree to which
2:56>> the production crew made it interesting
3:00we've just got great people
3:02>> and there are some of them that are
3:05homegrown some of them that Larry AR
3:08recruited Um, and the Distant Moon is a
3:11production company that we Yeah.
3:13>> hire, but we feel like they're
3:16>> a part of all this and they are so uh
3:18mission they're not mission adjacent,
3:21they're mission synonymous.
3:23>> Yes. Uh with us.
3:25>> Well, it feels right. And I mean, I've
3:26told you you've just met our production
3:28team here and
3:30>> yeah,
3:30>> you know, we're we're watching Hillsdale
3:32closely and and and doing our best to
3:35>> kind of take the best of the people and
3:37the stories and the content around here
3:39and and emulate them to the degree we
3:41can with our uh very finite resources.
3:44So, we're doing our best, but this whole
3:47movement really lends itself to great
3:49storytelling. And so, we're trying to do
3:51that, too.
3:52>> It does. I think one of the things that
3:54um we uh obviously we're trying to bring
3:59in on the faculty I mean we already have
4:02a wonderful really wonderful faculty and
4:05they're they're primarily devoted to
4:08teaching
4:09>> and sometimes I won't I won't name the
4:10names but we've brought in some people
4:13who are kind of uh stars in in the
4:18academic world they don't necessarily Um
4:23one of the differences of us is that we
4:26are not
4:29how do I put it in most um as aspirant
4:33colleges you know the sort of
4:35directionality is towards the graduate
4:38experience towards research towards that
4:41sort of thing at Hillsdale it's the
4:43other direction we want to improve
4:46teaching
4:47>> we want to improve and and we want to
4:50rest it out of the hands of the
4:53professional educators who have made
4:54such a mess of it.
4:56>> At least I would express it that way. I
4:58don't know that that [laughter] would be
4:59a mission statement, but I think u
5:03>> classical education in general is is
5:05about sort of saying, you know,
5:08>> we've tried uh various progressive
5:10approaches. They're they're clearly not
5:12working. The data all shout at us that
5:15it's not working. That's right. So, um,
5:18as my my my colleague, uh, uh, Dan
5:21Copeland has written a short book called
5:24Tried and True. That's right.
5:26>> What a wonderful tie off it is. Uh, it
5:28is,
5:29>> uh, so that's kind of what we're doing.
5:31I I think
5:32>> I've just come from the Hogland uh, uh,
5:36uh, conference with teachers and it's
5:39very lively and
5:41>> maybe explain what what is that. Well,
5:43it's something that that the college the
5:45Hillsdale College has organized and I
5:47don't know how long they've been doing
5:48it. I've only been at Hillsdale for five
5:51years, but I participated it most years
5:54that I've been there. And it's teachers
5:56who are in Hillsdale affiliated schools
6:00and there are various kinds of
6:01affiliations that a school can have.
6:03They can be, you know, allin for
6:07Hillsdale. they can be, you know, they
6:08they can have a a more attenuated ail
6:12affiliation status, but but they're
6:14definitely part of our network. And so
6:16we have we've had hundreds of teachers.
6:19It's smaller this year because we have
6:22um what I hope will be a distant memory
6:24by the time people listen to this
6:26terrible weather in the in the American
6:29East, Southeast, Northeast, all over. Uh
6:32so our attendance was down but these are
6:35very lively very committed teachers in
6:39the network. Um and you know one of the
6:42things is more in side conversations
6:44than in my formal remarks that we've we
6:47were talking about is we we how we
6:50really ought to distinguish in thinking
6:52about classical education between
6:55content the content that we want to be
6:57sure is at the core of what we do and
7:00the conveying of it and traditional this
7:04timehonored
7:05um traditional ways of conveying that
7:08>> may not be that we have to go back to um
7:12although I want to do it in some ways
7:14wrote memorization. I think memorization
7:16is a great thing that we should do more
7:18of. I make my students
7:20>> at Hillsdale me memorize the Gettysburg
7:23address and the preamble to the
7:24constitution, things like that
7:26>> because when you have it memorized, it's
7:28in your heart. But I on the other hand I
7:31think we have lively people who have
7:33different ways of thinking about how do
7:35you get um young people particularly
7:38these kids now who just don't read
7:40anything.
7:41>> Yeah.
7:41>> Or they will defiantly say I don't read
7:45out of books.
7:46>> That's right.
7:46>> And we don't get this at the college but
7:48we but the teachers I was talking with
7:50today do get that. And some of the
7:52people who are going to be watching this
7:54get that. How do you how do you how do
7:58you reverse that that anti-biblio
8:01biblical I mean anti
8:04anti-biblophilic
8:06>> right mentality? We we should be
8:08biblophiles. We should have a love of
8:10books and not of tablets.
8:13>> Um I wrote Land of Hope uh in the hope
8:17that it would be something that kids
8:20would hang on to. It would be part of a
8:23personal library. and uh
8:25>> and it reads that way. I think it will
8:26be that kind of book.
8:27>> Thank you. I hope incredibly well done.
8:29But they have to have here's a copy for
8:31those that
8:32>> this is this is Dr. Mcclelay's book.
8:34Most recent book he's written dozens but
8:36>> we are working on a second edition by
8:37the way. It's got heard that really.
8:39>> What are the substantive improvements?
8:41>> Well, mainly more images, more maps,
8:43more study aids, things that teachers
8:46have been telling us they need.
8:49>> The text isn't that different. I've
8:50updated it a bit. I've improved some
8:53areas where I think it was a little bit
8:55weak.
8:56>> It's a page turner. I mean, it's it's it
8:58really is. I mean, I just would commend
9:00our audience to it because, you know,
9:02it's a it's a narrative and I'd like you
9:03to talk a little bit about why you
9:05thought it was necessary. What what is
9:06new and different about I would love to
9:08do that, but I just just the reason I
9:10brought it up is that I uh
9:12>> I I I think uh
9:15>> there's a whole lot we need to do
9:17>> to convince um young people to read to
9:21read in the first place and to read
9:22books
9:23>> that there's something about
9:25>> this the form of a book
9:27>> that it's not a fetish that we just
9:30can't let go of because we're baby
9:31boomers or whatever. Um there is some
9:35something about the book that and about
9:38the process of reading a book and not
9:40reading a screen.
9:42>> It's it's as you know all the studies
9:46>> indicate that reading comprehension is
9:48better when young people read from books
9:51as opposed to screens. And and I know
9:53that in my own experience I have to
9:55print things out if I really want to
9:56understand them.
9:57>> I spoke recently to a gentleman named
9:59Shiloh Brooks who's
10:00>> Oh, I know Shiloh. Yes. He does the he
10:02does the old old school thing for uh
10:05free press.
10:06>> That's right. That's right. Well, you
10:07know, and he used to be at Princeton,
10:08which is, you know, considered an is an
10:10Ivy League school. And
10:12>> he lamented that he feels like their
10:15students often arrive um having never
10:18read a complete book to start to finish.
10:20>> Yeah.
10:21>> It's shocking.
10:22>> I believe he's moved on from Princeton
10:24now.
10:24>> He is. He is now at SMU.
10:26>> He's at the George Bush Center,
10:27>> but he's at the George Bush Center
10:29there. That's right. That's right.
10:30>> Yeah. Um well maybe maybe say a little
10:33bit more about the the tone the purpose
10:36of the book. Why why did we need another
10:38narrative of American history? What's
10:39unique about it?
10:40>> Well, I'll go back to you know um
10:45Aristotle of course distinguishes
10:47between efficient causes and final
10:49causes. And let me tell you a little bit
10:51of the efficient cause part of it
10:52because it this isn't widely known.
10:56Um it really started you know I was
10:59being a typical university professor
11:01going about my business teaching my
11:04courses writing articles and books read
11:07by uh uh the articles read by you know
11:11three or four people [laughter] I mean I
11:14say I u I'm only slight slightly
11:17exaggerating and u
11:21along comes the college board which as
11:23you know is the organization that is uh
11:26is in charge of advanced placement
11:28testing. They they have a monopoly, a
11:31completely unjust monopoly, I I would
11:34add what which is about to be shattered.
11:36There's some developments on the
11:38horizon. Um but uh they decided to
11:42revise their USAP
11:45course um and uh to uh revise the
11:50framework for it and oh sorry about
11:54that.
11:54>> That's all right.
11:55um
11:57uh they they they wanted to revise the
11:59framework
12:01um and deemphasize things like the
12:04founding, the American Revolution,
12:08the Constitutional Convention, the
12:10ratification debates, the Bill of
12:11Rights, uh and the personages
12:16um involved in these things such as oh
12:18these marginal characters like a guy
12:21named George Washington
12:23>> and Madison Yeah, I mean it was kind of
12:26an astonishing
12:28heist that they in retrospect I I think
12:32I didn't grasp the enormity of what was
12:35being done. Um but I was it was brought
12:39to my attention because I didn't follow
12:40what the College Board was doing. I was
12:42up in my little rarified university
12:45professor atmosphere and um and I when I
12:48realized what was going on, I thought
12:51I've got to I've got to speak out about
12:53this. I got to do something. And I got
12:56involved with a group um that uh was uh
13:01decided what we should do is write an
13:03open letter to the college board um
13:06protesting against these changes. Doing
13:08so in a civil and constructive voice,
13:12but firm, you know, that this this shall
13:14not stand. Uh you know, you really need
13:17to go back to your earlier stands. And
13:21we have we got about 200 signatures to
13:23the letter, very notable people um uh
13:28even a few people in the historical
13:30profession which who probably approved
13:32of what the college board had done but
13:35sort of recognized the way they'd done
13:36it was not the right way.
13:39>> Anyway, the the college board never
13:41acknowledged the letter but they did
13:44revert to the earlier framework. Trouble
13:47is that in the inter in intervening
13:50months the the major textbook publishers
13:53like apprentice uh hall and uh Pearson
13:58and uh McGraill and I forget the other
14:02one but um it it's really the textbook
14:04publishing is dominated by three or four
14:07firms and um they'd all changed their
14:11content of their textbooks to accord
14:14with what the college board had done.
14:18And by the way, they also I discovered
14:20and I had not known that Pearson
14:22especially
14:23um was moving at war of speed towards
14:27offering everything online. That was
14:29their goal.
14:30>> And um there are reasons why this was
14:33very attractive to schools because they
14:35could pay a single licensing fee that
14:39would allow their students to um
14:42download what they needed on their
14:43tablets. You could revise it. shades of
14:46George Orwell. You could revise
14:48>> inexpensively inexpensively. No one
14:51would know the difference.
14:53>> Uh the um uh it is really like something
14:57out of 1984. But they they uh they
15:00wanted to and they this is still their
15:03objective is to commit schools to to a
15:06digital only
15:08>> uh experience. So anyway, people started
15:11coming to me um and saying, you know,
15:16we we should really we need another
15:17textbook. We need a competitive
15:18textbook. And I said, you know, I
15:22absolutely I agree with you. I hope you
15:23find somebody to do it. I I did not want
15:26to be the one to do it. But I will say
15:30Roger Kimble, who is the publisher of
15:32Encounter Books and the editor of The
15:34New Criterion and a major intellectual
15:37figure in American life, came to me.
15:41>> And I think it took him about five or
15:43six times,
15:44runs at me
15:46>> to talk me into it. And I'm so grateful.
15:48I'll forever be grateful to him because
15:50it was like um what it became was a
15:53labor of love. is it's as if he
15:55introduced me to a great love uh and
15:59that was
16:00>> um re pre presenting the American past
16:04uh with all of its faults warts and all
16:08um but it giving a complete picture that
16:11could make Americans
16:14proud of their past to make them
16:16identify to be inspired to do better by
16:20that past and u uh in general to help
16:23them take aboard
16:26the idea that of membership in the
16:28society because that that's if you're
16:31going to have a Republican form of
16:33government, you have to have
16:36educated, loyal
16:39uh citizens who who know their system
16:42and love their conduct.
16:43>> Love it. And um if we we're not if we're
16:47not going to have that I I don't know
16:49why it took me so long to see this uh
16:52but I I did saw it in stark reality.
16:55Maybe it's because I wasn't dealing with
16:56high school uh as much in my
16:59professional life,
17:00>> but that this is of critical importance
17:03and and you know, I was noticing
17:05particularly at Tulain, which is a very
17:08secular school and a lot of kids very
17:10jauntist in their view of American
17:12history and um uh that there was
17:15something wrong on K12 level that was
17:19not going to re be repaired by um
17:22instituting required courses in um
17:25colleges and universities which I'm all
17:27for that and I'm actually involved in
17:29some movements to to do exactly that to
17:32persuade states and we've done it in we
17:34managed it in some states uh North
17:37Carolina Utah you know we're doing
17:39making progress in that but but that's
17:41not enough it has to start earlier
17:43>> right and and um so that's when I was
17:47talked into doing the book and the it
17:49took me an entire summer to write the
17:52first chapter which is if people have
17:54the book or they look at it. It's very
17:56short.
17:56>> Uhhuh.
17:57>> And all I can say is that it took me
18:00that long to
18:02figure out what voice I should have. And
18:05I, you know, I it was just endless
18:07writing, rewriting of fairly simple
18:11things. I one of the things I discovered
18:15and this is
18:17almost the kind of thing I'd want to put
18:18in my gravestone but is that simplicity
18:22is the hardest thing of all.
18:24>> Yes. Yes. It it is the the the beauty of
18:28a of a wise and commodious simplicity is
18:32uh you know the that's that shaker hint
18:34is the gift to be simple and it's a gift
18:38um but I there there's that hard one
18:41simplicity and the way the book opens
18:43that has been
18:45>> even people who don't read the whole
18:47thing they read the opening and they say
18:48boy this changes the whole way I view
18:50history. It does strike you as
18:52different. Yeah. Right away.
18:53>> And that took me a whole summer to get
18:55to that. And I'm very frust.
18:59I'd already agreed to do this. And come
19:02October.
19:03You know, Roger said, "Well, said, "We
19:05just had a marketing meeting." And we
19:08have a great plan.
19:10Only thing is we don't have a book.
19:12[laughter]
19:13And I said, "Roger, bear with me. I'm
19:16going to need a little while longer."
19:18And but I was in a mad rush after that
19:21because I knew I knew then how to do it.
19:24I I I it took me forever that to figure
19:27it out, but once I kind of got the
19:29formula
19:30>> um in my bones,
19:32>> uh I I did. And um you know, something
19:35else I want to mention along the way
19:37that even a book was the book was done
19:40and had just come out. I had um dinner
19:44with a wonderful man named Harry Balon
19:47who is a uh lawyer among other many
19:50other things he's done in his life has a
19:52PhD in musicology from Yale and and can
19:56talk your ear off about musical theory
19:58and why uh why the Tristan chord in
20:01Vagner is is really a product of earlier
20:05things and so on but he's he's brilliant
20:07man but he's also a deeply religious
20:11ious orthodox Jew. And um he um he said
20:16to me at one point at a dinner which
20:18went we closed down the restaurant at
20:21the Jefferson Hotel in Washington. It
20:23must have been at dinner for almost five
20:25hours. And uh he looked at me at one
20:29point very intently and said, "You know,
20:31I believe that if you teach children, if
20:34you teach young people that they live
20:36under a regime that is bad, it damages
20:40their souls."
20:43>> Now you you you
20:45nodding. Yeah, of course. I mean, and
20:47and that's it. I had never thought of
20:50that. Mhm. Yeah.
20:51>> I had never thought about and and I
20:53started asking friends who most of my
20:56friends in the profession are are much
20:59more critical of America and American
21:01history and American heroes than I am.
21:04And I asked I'd always done this
21:06actually. I'd asked, "Do you ever worry
21:08that your revisionist view of George
21:11Washington that he really was a brutal
21:15man, a brutal slave? Well, that's the
21:17most important thing to be known about
21:19it. Do you ever worry that this has sort
21:22of followon effects and is um um
21:26damaging to uh the the life prospects of
21:31the people you're teaching? And they
21:34invariably I would get the same answer.
21:36And I wonder if you can guess what it
21:38would be. I'll tell you. I I won't make
21:40you guess. The answer is that's not my
21:43job.
21:43>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
21:44>> Yeah. You wouldn't. I mean that's that's
21:46it's it's uh if you worked in education
21:49at all you know that people sort of I
21:50don't take responsibility
21:52for
21:54teaching Fuko to my classes uh and um uh
22:00it struck me that that and I was very
22:02thankful that I could look at what I had
22:04done and and it whether I I had not been
22:07aware of it but I'd taken that in some
22:09way into account and now I do much more.
22:12I think I I I just finished giving this
22:16talk at the Hoolland program and and
22:18saying you know look history is a part
22:22properly taught it should be an act of
22:25moral formation
22:27and you know a lot of times we have a
22:28problem with that history is
22:31rightly and wrongly rightly in a way we
22:33because uh we shouldn't teach history as
22:36a morality play we should deal with the
22:39fact that uh Um, you know, the salvation
22:43of man is not inside history. I I don't
22:46think that's a a a
22:50widely disputed view among Christians
22:53and and Jews and and people who have
22:56biblical faiths. um that history it's
23:00it's connected because the God
23:03the biblical God is a God who is takes
23:06an interest in time in history in in uh
23:10and in the movements of even the doings
23:12of nations. He clearly not uninterested
23:15in these things. No.
23:16>> Uh but
23:18>> his ways are not ours. We don't know
23:20what exactly he has in mind for us. But
23:23at any rate, the the u uh the the the
23:29study of history as a work of memory and
23:33of appreciation of those that came
23:36before us. Um is it is is soul forming.
23:41>> Yeah. Um, and now Burke said, I I'll get
23:46the quote wrong, but there something
23:48that no one can be expected to look
23:52forward to his progeny in the future if
23:56he doesn't look backward to his
23:58forebears. That is looking backward and
24:01looking forward are all part of the same
24:04thing, same apprehension of what it
24:06means to be human.
24:07>> Yeah. and Burke, you know, he talks
24:09about the eternal contract of human
24:11society that that we are bound together
24:16not just in relationship of the ones who
24:19are alive at the time we're alive, but
24:20we we have a relationship to those who
24:24came before us and we have a
24:26relationship to those yet to be born.
24:29That all of that is going on at the same
24:32time in us. And one of the most human
24:34things we can do is hold multiple
24:37thoughts in our head at once and
24:39appreciate
24:40>> Yes.
24:41>> what we what we get and what we derive
24:43while while also being critical of
24:45things that weren't so great of a of a
24:47time and place.
24:48>> Yes. And history has um I think more
24:52than other disciplines even let's say
24:54anthropology it has this ability to um
24:58help us not only escape from the hold of
25:02the past which is what a lot of my
25:03colleagues think history is for uh is to
25:08show well you know uh the
25:12notion the past should have a hold on us
25:14is is wrong you know uh like Steven Ded
25:18says history is a nightmare from which
25:19I'm trying to escape. Uh that history is
25:22not only for that but it's to help us
25:24escape from the present
25:26>> that the strangle hold of the present
25:28the the uh [laughter]
25:30>> right here and the now uh the this
25:32endless flow of of data of things that
25:36we to click on things that give us a
25:38little the noise. Yeah. Uh
25:42>> I can't even remember the name of the
25:43hormone that we're supposed to get
25:45>> the dopamine.
25:46>> Dopamine. Thank you. Sure. Thank you.
25:47[laughter] The dopamine thing um it free
25:50frees us from dopamine addiction. Put it
25:52if you want to put it in a materialist
25:54way. But uh it and it opens us up to the
25:58sense of time sort of lying before us as
26:01a as a banquet uh of things to to
26:05understand and the different ways that
26:08people have gone about the business of
26:09being human.
26:10>> Yeah. Um, just today, just before this
26:13interview, I was a little late getting
26:14over here because I had trouble getting
26:16a cab and ended up with this this cab
26:19driver from Eritria.
26:22And uh he went on to lecture me about
26:26and I mean in a nice way about the
26:28difference between American dogs and
26:30African dogs and uh any number of other
26:33things about uh [laughter]
26:35and shrewd insights about America
26:38um thrown in with some utterly cockami
26:41things. But uh I thought to myself it
26:44was it was such a gift to have this cab
26:47ride with this man who is uh very
26:50entertaining but also u gives me a
26:53glimpse of the different world he came
26:56from and um and you know he's got an
26:59Iritrian flag and an American flag in
27:02his and I said you go back he says no
27:06>> why would I go back from here
27:09>> uh why would I go backwards
27:11>> right
27:12So it was very inspiring.
27:17>> So I think history does have that you
27:19know it it it introduces us to um this
27:24is one reason why people complain about
27:26social history. I don't I don't because
27:28I think it's been a good thing to help
27:33us to understand better particularly the
27:36lives of those who are not eminent who
27:38are the the the servants the enslaved
27:43people of the past the the the
27:46sort of marginalized oppressed etc. I
27:48think as long as you don't don't say
27:50that people by virtue of being having
27:53these things uh are more virtuous
27:56somehow than the rest of us or they're
27:58to be the lionized for that just to try
28:01to understand their lives um to expand
28:04the range of our human sympathies and
28:06history can do that we everything from
28:09the king uh and queen you know uh as in
28:14Camelot you know what do the simple poke
28:16do
28:18all the way down to the simple folk
28:20themselves saying what do those people
28:21in the castle do. Uh that's uh I think
28:24history helps to uh address some of that
28:27appetite for knowing uh uh knowing all
28:31the different ways that we go about the
28:34business of being human.
28:35>> So when you were writing the book, so in
28:37in the Hillsdale plan, the program
28:40guide, our students engage with your
28:43book and there's also a uh there's a
28:45student workbook. There's also a
28:47teachers guide. They encounter it in
28:50seventh grade, eighth grade, 11th grade.
28:53>> Great. Great.
28:54>> Um, did you and of course they've gotten
28:57a a pretty heavy dose of American
28:59history as in in kindergarten and first
29:02grade at an appropriate level there. So,
29:03it spirals on itself and they get to
29:05encounter the the names, the places, the
29:07concepts, the ideas several times
29:09through their K12 um experience. I'm
29:12wondering when you were writing the book
29:14did you did you have that in mind? Did
29:16you know kind of no
29:17>> the age or the you know where students
29:19would intersect with this thing?
29:21>> I didn't I didn't and you know I as you
29:24were asking the formulating the question
29:26I was thinking to myself how grateful I
29:28am for the people like like Katie Oul
29:31and others alike. John McBride, who was
29:33my collaborator on the the teachers
29:36guide and uh and the student workbook,
29:38is a man I knew in Chattanooga, who was
29:42a master teacher, just you one of the
29:45greats. And uh um he was very badly
29:48treated by the local Huytoy private
29:52school, which I won't name, but he but
29:54he was basically eased out there because
29:56he was not being he was not teaching
29:59woke history. I'll put it that way. It's
30:01that simple. We didn't have the word
30:02woke yet for it. But uh and so I I just
30:06have tried um John's retired now, but I
30:10I'm He is I try to keep alive his verve
30:14and and a lot of what's great about the
30:16teachers guide is John. It's not me. Uh
30:20but but other than him,
30:23uh and he he read the book. Um, I I did
30:28get when I wrote the book, I didn't
30:30think of any follow- on stuff. I knew
30:32that we would probably need to do have
30:36some kind of um oh apparatus, some sort
30:40of additional material, something. Yes.
30:44But, uh, you know, I didn't know whether
30:46I'd be writing it and and when I
30:48suggested it to Roger, um, he said, "Oh,
30:51we don't do that. We won't do that.
30:52where this is um I guess he thought this
30:56was like Henry Adams writing his history
30:58of the United States but or something
31:00and um anyway uh it it so happened that
31:04he I think I have this right uh he his
31:07wife Alexandra uh was reading Land of
31:10Hope in a reading group uh with where
31:13they live in Connecticut and um and
31:16there were a bunch of teachers in the
31:17group and they said oh we love this but
31:19I wouldn't know how to use this in the
31:20classroom so Alexander sort of marches
31:22back and says, "I this is what I'm
31:24hearing is you need ancillary
31:26materials."
31:27>> And so said, "Oh, we got to get
31:30ancillary tuners and we need them now."
31:32So we we had to do the everything. We
31:34were kind of hand-to-mouth in
31:37understanding how American education
31:39works and how there are ways in which
31:42the system should be challenged
31:44frontally and unrelentless and
31:48relentlessly.
31:49Um, there are also ways that transit
31:52needs to be worked with. There are there
31:53are things that exist, even bureaucratic
31:57standards that make some sense. Um, and
32:01you're and you're just not going to get
32:02people to adopt your book if you don't
32:04do certain things.
32:05>> Yeah.
32:06>> So, we have we have really accommodated
32:09a lot of that in this forthcoming second
32:11edition. Okay. Land of Hope. I I I um I
32:15think people will be it's definitely a
32:18dazzling book. I I mean I've seen we're
32:21about
32:23threearters of the way through the page
32:26layout and I think we'll have the book
32:29out
32:30at least in PDF form that we can share
32:32with teachers
32:34by March.
32:35>> Yeah. and and bound books by April,
32:38which is a little late, but it's we've
32:40been we've been pedalling as hard as we
32:42can to get there.
32:43>> Well, I think they're going to like it.
32:45I think they're going to love it. And
32:47it's we've got more images. We've got
32:50maps galore. I think there are four
32:52times as many maps and they're very
32:55specific maps. I mean, we have maps. We
32:59have a map of George Whitfield's
33:01journeys, evangelical journeys up and
33:04down the the eastern seabboard. Uh, you
33:08know, we have very specific maps and um
33:10and we could have done more. I I I was
33:13worried about the book getting too long.
33:15>> Yeah. So uh uh um I think we have a
33:19glossery, we have timelines, we have
33:22sidebars, we have um primary sources
33:26that are sort of um woven into the text.
33:29It's it's in some ways more like u the
33:33kind of textbook you're used to, which
33:36>> I will admit to you when I wrote num
33:38land of hope one um I was actively
33:42rebelling against that. I I said I want
33:45a book to be read.
33:47>> I don't want sidebars. I don't want uh I
33:50I um I don't want footnotes. I most book
33:53them don't have footnotes, but
33:54>> kind of a razor's edge there between
33:56being distracting and yeah, you know,
33:57and just being a great
33:59>> I want I wanted it to be all about the
34:01pros, the few illustrations.
34:03>> I wanted more maps than we were able to
34:05get. We had a very tight budget.
34:08>> Yeah. Um, and we just, if you will look
34:11at the book, uh, with this in mind,
34:14you'll see that there are really only
34:16two or three maps that we had a cgrapher
34:21draw.
34:22>> The rest of them are public domain maps,
34:24which are wonderful. They we've kept
34:26them in the new edition because
34:29>> that that's so color and sense of time
34:32and place that they bring. Um, and
34:35they're perfectly good. you know, the
34:36maps of the the Kansas Nebraska Act, you
34:39know, that from the time period.
34:41>> Yeah.
34:41>> Uh but um uh we did that initially
34:45strictly for money reasons.
34:47>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Because
34:48>> we didn't have to this time. So I think
34:50that it plus plus I have to mention we
34:54have and teachers will want to know
34:56this. We have developed an online
34:59curriculum to go with the book.
35:01>> Yeah. That's pretty much done, right?
35:04>> But we're not going to release it until
35:05we release the book.
35:06>> Yeah.
35:07>> But it's
35:07>> Well, that's a great way to supplement
35:08it.
35:09>> It does. And we have for example things
35:11like uh you know once I I got a couple
35:15of complaints I really literally you
35:17could count them on the fingers of one
35:18hand but from people who wished I had
35:20done more with pre-Colombian
35:22civilizations
35:24>> and and I and I say in the book my my
35:28rationale for only doing a little bit
35:30that they're not really part of the
35:32American story and u
35:34>> um yeah
35:35>> but we have a whole bunch of uh
35:38pre-colian stuff including maps of the
35:43Mexican cities and you know the
35:46>> well that's maybe an opportunity for
35:47another book another day
35:49>> maybe but it's also something that
35:50teachers can draw on
35:52>> as they wish
35:54>> they can download it they can direct
35:56their students to it and and we have
36:00John McBride's been in on this and he he
36:04uh when he taught he would use music and
36:08and some extent art, but especially
36:11music.
36:11>> Yeah.
36:12>> And that's a whole way of approaching
36:13American history that the songs, the
36:17songs of the SpanishAmerican War. There
36:19were songs of the Spanish war, the
36:22cowboy songs, the the the you know uh
36:26the songs of the revolution.
36:27>> Optimally, our curriculum does that is
36:30intended to yeah, you know, um
36:32incorporate the art and the music from
36:34an era as we teach that era. And you
36:37know I think we achieved that reasonably
36:39well. Um Dr. Mcclelay I wanted to ask
36:42you you know we some of the audience
36:43will be parents who like I was 15 years
36:46ago have young kids and are evaluating
36:49options for their kids and and thinking
36:51about education. I wonder if you could
36:52talk about you know in Georgia for
36:55example at most for most people in
36:58Georgia their children may very well
37:00never encounter a course with the word
37:03history in the title. It'll be social
37:05studies of some form or another. What
37:08what what is going on there? What have
37:10we lost and what should a parent know
37:12about that in terms of you know looking
37:15for their kids education?
37:17>> Yes. The you know you could you could
37:19tell my bodily
37:21>> social studies you know I can't even say
37:24it without having a breath between the
37:26two. Well, social studies are an
37:30expression of the sort of idea of social
37:33science then that history can be reduced
37:37to um a kind of science uh instead of
37:41being
37:43really ultimately more about stories
37:48and stories. People hear stories like
37:51tall tales they think say history is
37:54stories it's all made up. No. Um my my
37:58talk today to the group was that the
38:00title history as a way of knowing
38:03>> knowing not just speaking but knowing
38:07there are some things and you think
38:10about um uh this the
38:14if you ask somebody you know Joe Schmo
38:18what what's he like and then you might
38:20say what's his story and when you say
38:23not what's his story actually a lot of
38:26times it means means not just where was
38:27he born, where blah blah blah, but tell
38:29me what why Joe Schmo is the way he is,
38:33you know, whether he Joe Schmo won the
38:35Medal of Honor or Joemo is a mass
38:38murderer or Joe what's his story.
38:41>> We don't we don't sort of compile a fact
38:44sheet.
38:46>> Uh we want to link those facts together
38:48in a meaningful way to say what Joemo's
38:51story is.
38:52>> Yeah. So that's it's one of the things I
38:55worry about is that uh you know um with
38:59a I mean we're all worried about AI but
39:02uh the u uh I don't think there's any
39:06doubt that whatever in education
39:08grounded in AI is brings us is not going
39:10to be good. Question is whether it's
39:14going to drive everything else out. I
39:16mean in the same way that so many
39:20schools around this country have uh
39:23abandoned reading of from books
39:25>> to reading from on screens, tablets and
39:29this there's no good reason to do this
39:32except that it's cheaper.
39:34>> That's and that's that's not necessarily
39:37a good reason.
39:38>> That's right.
39:38>> Maybe a defensible reason, but not a
39:40good one. Um so I I have the same fear
39:44that history is going to you know under
39:48undergo this same sort of fate that it
39:50doesn't have
39:52um a sort of payoff in terms of
39:56preparing people for the job market or
39:58other sorts of vocational goals. And as
40:01is you're not old enough, but I am old
40:03enough to remember when when the
40:06personal handheld calculators came in.
40:09Um and um and there was a panic about
40:13that. Oh, people will not learn how to
40:16add and subtract anymore. And well, uh
40:19they don't I mean they actually people
40:22younger people
40:23>> have very bad estimating skills. My
40:26mother was a mathematician. She was very
40:28tuned into this. She she she u said no
40:32look you you can if you need to make an
40:34elaborate calculation of of course use a
40:36calculator but most things it's much
40:39more useful to be you know she'd like
40:41casting out nines and all these gimmicks
40:43that people use to estimate
40:46>> um and estimation
40:49um is a skill look I'm not saying AI
40:53can't get to that but um um I I
40:58certainly I see this with young people.
41:01They don't have an ability to sort of
41:03check their work so to speak against
41:06estimated totals. I think something like
41:09this may happen to history or may be
41:11threatened that social studies has
41:13already done a lot of damage by um
41:17taking the idea that history is not a
41:21set of stories and of things that only
41:24happen once. Um, you know, I'm I'm of
41:29the school of thought that not only does
41:30history not repeat itself, it doesn't
41:33really ever rhyme.
41:35>> Uh, or you may think you hear a rhyme,
41:36but it's like one of Bob Dylan's rhymes
41:38where [laughter]
41:40home rhymes with bone, right? You know,
41:45it's not really a rhyme at all. Um, so
41:48history is the science of of
41:51irreproducible events and incommenurable
41:55things. Yeah.
41:56>> Um, so it's not a science at all, but
41:58it's a way that we have to learn to
42:00think in this world and and think
42:03clearly about the human person, what
42:06what it means to be human. So, I'm a
42:08little worried about uh I think we need
42:12to start to fight back about retaining
42:15the idea of history.
42:17>> Yeah.
42:17>> And junking
42:19so social studies.
42:21>> Yeah. Um,
42:22>> well, hopefully that's part of what
42:23we're doing in this national movement.
42:25>> Yeah, it is. It's a little ambiguous in
42:28and maybe I could ask you to talk about
42:30this, but I mean a little ambiguous
42:31within classical education because
42:34history is not a classical, you know,
42:37trivium quadriv,
42:39>> right?
42:40>> Uh, it's a modern
42:44>> uh edition.
42:45>> Yeah.
42:45>> But I think it's one that explained and
42:48understood correctly.
42:50um is indispensable because it's a it's
42:54a sort of a discipline of memory.
42:56>> Well, I mean, frankly, the entire this
42:58this big giant program guide that
43:00Hillsdale has developed. I mean, the
43:02history is the skeleton on which the
43:04whole thing is is built and perhaps for
43:07>> obvious reasons related to just
43:08chronology. That's yeah,
43:10>> sort of how we organize. So it's yeah
43:13it's
43:14>> it's a it's a funny thing because part
43:15of what classical education is about is
43:20um the permanent things as Russell Kirk
43:23said
43:24>> but it's also about I mean CS Lewis is
43:29is is wiser even than Russell Kirk in
43:31this regard that CS Lewis has a and I
43:35forget which of his essays it is but he
43:37talks about how the you can be led
43:41astray
43:42by the sort of idea of the universal
43:46character of man and think that a a
43:49medieval knight if you strip them of all
43:52of his armor just it's just the same as
43:54an 18th century bajgeoa or a a Greek
43:59slave or Greek citizen in antiquity or
44:02whatever that history time and fortune
44:06happeneth to us all and uh uh that there
44:09there is a way that part of what we are
44:12is is how we adapt to the circumstances
44:15in which we find ourselves. Which is why
44:17it's hard to compare
44:20greatness in a political leader in
44:22different time periods. Um because to be
44:25a great leader is it's not an abstract
44:28skill. It's a concrete skill. It's one
44:30how do you you know how the way you run
44:33General Foods is going to be different
44:35than the way you run a network of
44:38classical uh schools.
44:40um in the 21st century, you know,
44:43>> both need leadership and I'm and I'm
44:46thankful you're you're where you are uh
44:49and not the head of General Foods.
44:51>> Right. Right. [laughter] Right.
44:53uh and and vice versa, you know, with
44:55>> well, so there are timeless principles
44:56and and you know, elements of humanity
44:59that apply across time, but you're
45:00you're you're saying that we're also a
45:02product of our time and there's some way
45:04in which uh working out the balance
45:08between the two,
45:10which I think ultimately does mean
45:12honoring what's enduring
45:15and and eternal. Yes. is essential uh to
45:21find our way through the the
45:23circumstances of time.
45:26>> You know, I I I have a son. I know you
45:29have a son.
45:31And uh you know, one of the things and
45:33and I'm sure this is true for the for
45:35the ladies as well, but it seems to kind
45:36of jump out at me more uh in my in my
45:40relationship with him is you know, young
45:42men are eager to figure out who they are
45:44in the world and are looking for a story
45:47to tell about themselves [snorts] and
45:49and and it it seems important to all of
45:51us to kind of have some sense of how we
45:53fit into the, you know, what happened on
45:56planet Earth before we got here and and
45:58therefore what's kind of shaped us. Um,
46:01so I don't know. I I I see history as
46:04playing an important role in that. I
46:05mean, we we want to graduate young men
46:07and women who walk across the stage and,
46:09you know, understand the context of
46:12things and have developed a vision for
46:13their life that is largely based on some
46:15heroes and some things that have
46:17happened that that are worthy of their
46:19affection. So,
46:20>> I agree with that a thousand%. I'm being
46:24unmathetically. My mother would very she
46:27correct you on that. She don't No, don't
46:28ever say that. [laughter]
46:30But we need no that we need uh we're
46:34nothing. We are not human if the
46:37aspirational is not part of our makeup.
46:39>> Yeah.
46:40>> We're simply um a matter of reacting to
46:44what impinges upon us. We're the
46:46resultant effect of of other forces. No,
46:51we are free
46:53um and we're free to succeed. We're free
46:55to fail. We're freedom as we say to make
46:58something of ourselves. You know, isn't
46:59that a wonderful feature of comments
47:02made? We're to make something of
47:03ourselves.
47:04>> Um that that we aren't unless we the
47:08effort is there.
47:09>> And Aristotle presents this the virtue
47:11is not something you just have. It is
47:14something you both have and achieve.
47:17>> Um both things are involved in it.
47:20>> Yeah. Uh, one of the things I'm
47:22struggling with and and that's really
47:24it's one of the things I feel strongly
47:26about doing is that we've gone through
47:30this whole period in the study of
47:32American history in which this the
47:34emphasis has been on our national
47:36failings and our national sins with
47:38regard to race with regard to the uh
47:43well I guess the treatment of the native
47:45populations is a is correlary to that
47:48but but in other things that we could
47:50name. We could spend a long time. Most
47:53history interviews would
47:55consist exclusively of that, right?
47:57>> But and I think a lot of that criticism
48:00is is valid.
48:02>> Um but it's it there's a distinction in
48:05the law between things that are that are
48:07probative and things that are
48:08dispositive. And I do not think they're
48:10dispositive about what what America is
48:14about. Um I and I think what we need and
48:18what I tried to do in land and hope of
48:20hope is to say yes
48:23um it really is a shame that we couldn't
48:26have incorporated into the constitution
48:29the abolition of slavery. But hear me
48:32out people. This is why it wasn't
48:34possible. That's right. You can't just
48:36snap your fingers
48:38>> and say that a desirable moral change is
48:41going to occur because you will it. I'm
48:43afraid we have a lot of people, young
48:46people now, who do think that,
48:48>> right,
48:48>> who think and um that's part of the woke
48:52mentality. I think
48:54>> um and uh and there's an impatience with
48:57the flawed character of human beings. So
49:00that
49:02>> um you know, the fact that George
49:03Washington owned slaves is that's it,
49:08right?
49:08>> Off with his nothing else to be said.
49:12Jefferson who um actually there's a
49:15wonderful quotation from John Lewis, you
49:18know, a local hero here uh the civil
49:21rights movement who was was asked about
49:23these look we all knew about that aspect
49:27of Jefferson. But what mattered to us
49:30>> was that he his what things he wrote and
49:33not only the declaration but the
49:35declaration
49:37uh they were a fountain of inspiration.
49:41We And u if he could say that, why on
49:44earth can some dinky graduate student
49:46not say it too,
49:47>> right? That's right.
49:48>> Uh yeah, it's this is the man who
49:52suffered injury at the hands of those
49:54who opposed his cause. But um anyway, uh
49:58uh I I think finding a balance where we
50:03acknowledge our faults. You don't have
50:05to have uh plaster repair saints um
50:09because they don't hold up
50:11>> right [laughter]
50:11>> in a rainstorm they're gone
50:13>> right
50:14>> um we don't have to have plaster repair
50:16saints but we do have to understand what
50:17a real hero is
50:20and you know every now and then I hear
50:23somebody talk about you know my my dad I
50:26grew up in the coal mining
50:29district near Pittsburgh and my dad you
50:32know went off to work every day at some
50:35ungodly early hour. Came back at some
50:37ungodly late hour. Did it you know six
50:40days a week and um and you know suffered
50:44a black lung and all you know what
50:46everybody my dad was my hero because he
50:51um that's understanding you know dad may
50:54have been a drink too much. She may have
50:56been
50:58had all kinds of faults, but
51:02you know, understand what what a hero
51:04is.
51:05>> That and a hero is somebody who who can
51:08make the aspirational
51:11um dominant over the merely conditional
51:14>> in life. who is and is willing to pay
51:17the price for doing that as just as a
51:19soldier is willing to pay the price the
51:21aspirational price um the sacrifice of
51:25his life uh for um that aspirational
51:29purpose uh and any number of other
51:32things there are are um and you're right
51:37talking I I was I was moved when you
51:40were talking about having or having sons
51:41and yeah
51:42>> and uh
51:44>> um I I know there were points in my sons
51:47growing up and as there was in my own
51:50where I kind of realized that
51:54something there was something between
51:56where I was
51:59and where I wanted to be in order to be
52:01able I was really a man.
52:04Um and not in the sort of idiotic sense
52:07of that word that we use in our
52:09discourse. It it was something everybody
52:12knew what it meant to be a man, to feel
52:15like a man. And look, I'm even willing
52:18to for some women uh that it would
52:20apply, you know, and I know some very
52:22gutsy women
52:24>> sure
52:24>> who have done uh you enormous good in
52:28the world. And I but but it it's a
52:32particular burden for a guy, you know,
52:34and
52:35>> I think we've had an emphasis in our
52:37society for
52:40most of my life in how difficult it is
52:42to be a woman
52:43>> that that women
52:47have there there's an obvious biological
52:50role that women have played
52:53>> and we're now in an era in which that's
52:55sort of optional and and and women have
52:59and are right to have or entitled to
53:01have uh other kinds of aspirations. Um
53:06and we were we're trying you know we've
53:08been trying to figure out how can they
53:10have it all right. You know that's
53:12meanwhile
53:14the whole question of manhood
53:16>> has been left unressed and now we have a
53:18whole generation
53:20>> of boys know what the hell they are
53:23>> sure
53:24>> and they they not even sure that they're
53:26boys.
53:26>> Yeah.
53:27>> Uh Now, I'm not trying to deliver an
53:29oversimple uh diagnosis of the causes of
53:32gender dysphoria, but right but I I
53:35think um I'm happy to see
53:39uh that Abigail Shrier and others who
53:42have written about girls are also
53:45writing about boys. Christina Hoff
53:46Summers the a number of very good female
53:50authors have said, you know, whoa, we've
53:53got a problem with boys. Um our The
53:57whole institutional structure of
53:59education,
54:00>> yeah,
54:00>> favors girls.
54:01>> Yeah.
54:02>> And you know, uh, and I could go on
54:05about that, but but it is
54:08>> this this it isn't what the main thing
54:10we do in the classroom, but it is not
54:12unrelated to it. And
54:16uh one of the things that the study of
54:17history does teach is um it's
54:22astonishing
54:24to see the way that a man young man
54:29with a dissolute worthless life can rise
54:33to the challenge of doing something
54:35truly noble and it can transform him.
54:38Mhm.
54:39>> Um and I just one example that comes to
54:42mind and story that's always moved me
54:45was
54:45>> Ulyses Grant
54:47>> who um had a very undistinguished
54:50military career. You probably uh was
54:53bounced for drinking uh but but he
54:57finished very low in his class at West
54:58Point. At the time the Civil War broke
55:01out. He was working for his father um in
55:05um
55:06oh Galen, Illinois or some place some
55:08that out in the sticks and um it the the
55:14war presented him and it and there were
55:18a number of things that had to happen
55:19but it presented him with an opportunity
55:23to become one of the great generals of
55:26human history. Um and uh and he wrote a
55:30magnificent
55:31memoir that everyone should read. One I
55:34think it's one of the unsung great works
55:36of American literature. Um and yet he
55:40was a he would have been a skin head or
55:42some kind of guy with tattoos all if if
55:45he had lived in our times.
55:47>> Yeah.
55:47>> Um he he would have been
55:50good for nothing. Uh but his times
55:54gave him the opportunity to become the
55:57man that he potentially was
55:58>> and he did. Yeah.
55:59>> Yeah. But you couldn't separate that
56:01from his story, from his biography, from
56:05his history.
56:06>> Yeah.
56:07>> And u it it's also it's interesting how
56:11many just on military how many of our
56:13great military figures had these sort of
56:16calamitous early events. You had Nimttz
56:20uh uh in the Navy, the great uh admiral
56:24of the Second World War. You had uh
56:26Churchill's early career. Uh
56:29>> in modern times, you have John McCain
56:30who is the anchor man at the Naval
56:32Academy, you know, and had a had a
56:34pretty decent military and life, you
56:36know, public life. Well, John and John
56:38McCain's an interesting case [laughter]
56:39because he um he had a really hard row
56:44uh to I I don't know how much of this
56:47story I actually ought to tell, but uh
56:49uh he I worked for the Navy for a while
56:52for the Naval Institute as an editor and
56:54in the 70s and um he was uh there were a
56:58lot of people in the Navy who really
57:00didn't care for him to put it mildly.
57:03>> An admiral son, right?
57:04>> Admiral's son. a nephew of an admiral, a
57:08grandson of an admiral. Um, his wife,
57:12um, excuse me, his mother, um, Roberta,
57:16I met his mother once, uh, it was when
57:19McCain, I went to an occasion in
57:22Washington when the McCain was going to
57:25running for president in 2000 and he, it
57:29may shock you to know people didn't know
57:31what his foreign policy views were at
57:33that time. He had never really been
57:35outspoken. So he was gonna this was
57:37going to be his big foreign policy
57:38campaign speech. So I managed to get a
57:41seat there. I got there late. The only
57:43seat that was available it was a you
57:45know about 20 rounds in the room. It was
57:49a dinner was next to Roberta
57:52>> Robera McCain and the the mother of John
57:56McCain and she was a battleship in human
58:00form. really [laughter]
58:03>> something subtle about it or is that
58:04what you
58:05>> Well, no. And and and
58:07I terrifying.
58:08>> Yeah.
58:09>> I I she the I don't think any man that
58:12I've ever met has been more terrifying
58:14in the sort of sense of command that she
58:16had.
58:16>> Yeah. And so I sat down next to her and
58:18I tried to make conversation and
58:20everything I said
58:22her response was sort of if so was not
58:26saying it was sort of would you just
58:28please stop trying to engage [laughter]
58:30me. I I'm not interested in anything
58:33about you.
58:34>> Yeah.
58:36>> And and but I kept trying. I wanted you
58:39know just at least you know not have her
58:41think of me as some you know
58:44>> Yeah.
58:44>> nothing. And so I I uh finally I said
58:47you must be very proud of him. You know
58:50that his his experiences in the
58:54captivity, his uh um and now running
59:01serving the United States Senate,
59:03running for president. Um and she looked
59:06at me and and it was a mo so a little
59:09flicker of humanity. uh maybe what might
59:13have been one of those 16 pounder guns
59:15[laughter] firing and and she said um
59:19yes but he'll never have the main thing.
59:23>> Interesting.
59:23>> And it was interest I mean it's clear
59:25what the main thing was that was making
59:26admiral.
59:27>> Yeah.
59:27>> He'll never make admiral. He barely made
59:29captain.
59:30>> Yeah.
59:30>> Um and he he also actually his military
59:35strictly military career was this people
59:38never tired of pointing this out was
59:39undistinguished. He crashed planes. He
59:42He was lucky to be alive. Um
59:44>> he was
59:45>> and yet and whatever, you know, a lot of
59:47people still don't like him. Even though
59:50they still don't like him, but uh you're
59:52right to point them as an example.
59:54Somebody who
59:55>> and in some ways he o he overcame was a
59:59privileged upbringing. You know, he went
1:00:01to
1:00:03>> um I think St. at all, you know, the the
1:00:06exclusive
1:00:08>> schools in in Washington
1:00:10>> and managed to get thrown out.
1:00:12>> Yeah.
1:00:12>> He he got thrown out of schools left and
1:00:14right. He was a helien.
1:00:16>> Yeah.
1:00:16>> But after I met his mother, I had a
1:00:20whole different view.
1:00:21>> Yeah. Well, that's Yeah.
1:00:23>> Man, man, do you ever have a mountain to
1:00:25climb?
1:00:26>> We shouldn't judge the judge the book by
1:00:27its cover there. Everybody
1:00:29>> I think I think she's no longer alive,
1:00:30so I feel safe.
1:00:32>> All right. Uh, you've got to catch
1:00:34>> you might come after me with [laughter]
1:00:36those eyes.
1:00:37>> You've got to uh catch an airplane. So,
1:00:39we'll we'll finish here uh with just
1:00:41maybe some short answers. I've got a
1:00:43series of shorter questions that I'll
1:00:45try to I'll try to get through here.
1:00:47>> You're going to edit this, right?
1:00:49>> We'll we'll probably we'll see. I don't
1:00:50know. I think it's great conversation
1:00:52that you're you're sharing some awesome
1:00:53stuff with us.
1:00:54>> Um, okay. You're on the US commission
1:00:57for the semi-quinn centennial
1:01:00celebration.
1:01:01>> Good pronunciation. Was I close?
1:01:03>> I think you get some credit for that.
1:01:04It's it's probably one of the longer
1:01:06words that I know. Um but what do you
1:01:08>> anti-isestablishmentarianism?
1:01:10>> Yeah, that that that's always the the
1:01:12favorite. What do you um what do you
1:01:14hope will come of the celebration? What
1:01:16what is kind of the best thing?
1:01:17>> Well, look, I think one of the things
1:01:19that's happened
1:01:21um this is hard to give a short answer
1:01:23to.
1:01:23>> Yeah, fair enough.
1:01:25They the commission started off it was
1:01:27chaotic for a long time because it was
1:01:30uh first of all the
1:01:33>> Trump the first Trump administration
1:01:35where everything was
1:01:37you know whatever it is it's we're
1:01:40against controversial you know
1:01:42everything was controversial and uh we
1:01:44didn't get anything done
1:01:45>> and we we didn't even get an executive
1:01:47director hired um but um and the Biden
1:01:52administration was not much better but
1:01:54Then I've been on this thing for a long
1:01:56time and then um after the the 2024
1:02:00election things started to happen and we
1:02:03were already doing it. We I have to give
1:02:05credit and this is a very hopeful thing.
1:02:07There's a woman named Rosie Rios who is
1:02:09the uh chairman. We still don't have an
1:02:13executive director but she's the
1:02:14chairman of the commission and she's
1:02:16been effectively our leader. She's a
1:02:18liberal Democrat from California. I
1:02:22believe she served on the dem the state
1:02:25Democratic committee. She was the
1:02:28treasurer of the United States under
1:02:29Obama. So she's she's very much a
1:02:33partisan Democrat, but she has put her
1:02:38partisanship aside to do what's best for
1:02:41the country. And I'm full of admiration
1:02:42for her
1:02:44>> in this regard. And I think some of us,
1:02:47many of us on both sides of the aisle
1:02:50have uh have uh adopted that spirit. So
1:02:54we've getting a lot of smaller things
1:02:56done. Um sort of community demon uh
1:03:00demonstration tours, school contests,
1:03:03things like that that we're sponsoring.
1:03:05I think there's more coming that will be
1:03:06bigger.
1:03:07>> I can't really talk about. Yeah.
1:03:09>> And and bringing the World Cup to
1:03:11Atlanta is something we actually had a
1:03:14role in,
1:03:14>> right?
1:03:15>> Um uh but because we and we're going to
1:03:18make that a 250th
1:03:20>> thing. Uh right. Um but um what's
1:03:26happened is more gratifying is to me is
1:03:28that that you know this board of fear
1:03:31that you took describes in his great
1:03:33book on democracy in America that people
1:03:37are voluntarily sort of rising up in
1:03:39their localities saying well you know um
1:03:42here in in Pottersville you know or
1:03:45whatever
1:03:47[laughter]
1:03:47Shaker Falls we
1:03:49>> we are we ought to do something. Yeah.
1:03:51let's uh let's open up the the local
1:03:53museum or let's uh have a ceremony
1:03:57whatever parade. Um so we're starting to
1:04:00see lots of things popping up all over
1:04:03the place and that local initiative.
1:04:06>> I think this is so great. I much better
1:04:08than a nationally
1:04:09>> coordinated thing. We have we try to
1:04:11serve as a clearing house and when
1:04:13people come to us say this is what we
1:04:16want to do. movie say, "Okay, what you
1:04:18want to do is go to the Iowa the head of
1:04:21the Iowa committee. We have the names
1:04:23and we have the contact information and
1:04:25uh um and that can help people to get
1:04:28resources. So, we we haven't been
1:04:31heavily funded to put it mildly. Um but
1:04:34we've done a lot with what we have."
1:04:36Yeah.
1:04:36>> And um u I think in the end it's a s
1:04:40it's it's going to be a success. And I'm
1:04:42old enough to remember the
1:04:44bicesentennial 50 years ago.
1:04:46>> Yep.
1:04:46>> And it was a near disaster.
1:04:48>> Well, yeah. I remember I was a boy. I I
1:04:51remember a little neighborhood
1:04:52celebration. Well, I was very young, but
1:04:54but I just graduated from college and uh
1:04:57um but and those of your listeners who
1:05:01are probably the majority of whom uh
1:05:04would would actually remember it,
1:05:06>> but it was uh of course the big defining
1:05:11in episode was the the tall ships that
1:05:15this this uh procession of of old um uh
1:05:21sailing ships from the 19th century that
1:05:24from countries all over the world, you
1:05:26know, Uruguay had a had a uh, you know,
1:05:30the European countries, they all
1:05:31represented and they processed up
1:05:34through, you know, York Harbor, you
1:05:36know, up up the Hudson a certain
1:05:39distance and they they had turned around
1:05:41and they went up to Boston and there
1:05:43were I I forget the number. I think
1:05:46there were eight million people lining
1:05:50New York Harbor to watch and that's like
1:05:52the population of the whole city,
1:05:53>> right?
1:05:54>> Um
1:05:55>> and uh I was not there but I watched it
1:05:58on television along with million other
1:06:01people. Uh it was a a whole issue of
1:06:04time of not time life magazine which
1:06:08many of your audience will never don't
1:06:10life magazine which was the great
1:06:13pictorial magazine. That's right. of
1:06:15that time.
1:06:16>> Um, and the pictures of these ships were
1:06:20just enormous. Why was that so
1:06:23effective? I have never quite been able
1:06:25to figure it out except to say, and this
1:06:28is a clatical educator in me. I think
1:06:30people were, you know, this was a
1:06:32terrible time. We we'd lost the Vietnam
1:06:35War. We had had Watergate. We had had
1:06:40and uh Soviet Union was still going
1:06:43strong, making
1:06:45uh strides all over the place in Africa,
1:06:47particularly Angola. Um we were just a
1:06:51few years away from Afghanistan invasion
1:06:54by the the Soviets. Um we were back on
1:06:58our heels. Um in the United Nations, we
1:07:01were being attacked, Israel was being
1:07:03attacked, that Zionism was racism, and
1:07:05it's a terrible time. And uh so the mood
1:07:09was very people thought how are we going
1:07:11to celebrate a bisendennial at a time
1:07:13like this exactly what people thought
1:07:15coming into to our celebration.
1:07:17>> That's right. Interesting. Yeah.
1:07:18>> And what I think the ships turned it
1:07:20around because the ships were something
1:07:23beautiful and noble and in a way
1:07:27disinterested and which is a word that I
1:07:30that we don't use much anymore in its
1:07:32proper meaning.
1:07:33>> Maybe got our eyes off the
1:07:34>> but right here and now.
1:07:36>> Yeah.
1:07:37and and it it it lifted people.
1:07:40>> Um and it the fact that it had nothing
1:07:44to do with whether the Vietnam War was
1:07:47good or bad, whether you know was was
1:07:50actually actually very good is it it
1:07:52took people's minds away from issues and
1:07:55brought them to a consideration. We live
1:07:58in a world full of beauty, full of um
1:08:02worthy things, things to aspire to,
1:08:06things that that cause you to feel awe,
1:08:09to have a catch in your throat. Um I
1:08:13think that's why it worked.
1:08:14>> Yeah.
1:08:15>> Um I gave a few speeches at the
1:08:17commission about along these lines and
1:08:20nobody was buying it. So we we're not
1:08:22going to have that. I wanted to do
1:08:23something with trains because I think
1:08:25trains have a romantic
1:08:28place in the American heart. But
1:08:29>> well, I sure like the ships. That's
1:08:30that's
1:08:31>> Yeah, the ships were great. The ships
1:08:32were great. But anyway, I expect
1:08:34something. I also look, I'm leaving one
1:08:37major thing out of the equation, and
1:08:38that is the White House. Mhm.
1:08:40>> And the White House has made it very
1:08:42clear that this is going to be
1:08:45[laughter] this is going to be a big
1:08:47party, you know, with huge a huge party
1:08:51>> and um
1:08:51>> the biggest one ever.
1:08:52>> The biggest ever in the universe. That's
1:08:55right. No other planet has done this.
1:08:57>> Uh so uh uh it will be big. And uh I
1:09:01know I I know of some of the things that
1:09:03are going on. Here's what I'm involved
1:09:06with, being the nerd that I am, is that
1:09:09I I think I think we're going to come
1:09:11out of this by July 5th of this year
1:09:16with a real sense of of having done it
1:09:20done it right. I I believe we will. I
1:09:22did. Wouldn't that have said this a year
1:09:24ago?
1:09:24>> Yeah. Um, and what I wanted to see
1:09:28happen is that we don't make the mistake
1:09:30we made with the bsentennial, which was
1:09:32the bsentennial was an up thing. And the
1:09:35moment it was over,
1:09:38you know, the air came out of the
1:09:40balloon and everything settled back. I
1:09:43want this to go on not as a big huge
1:09:46party but um as public education
1:09:50uh and again I don't mean this in a dry
1:09:52you know uh you know
1:09:57sit at your desks and do your work sense
1:09:59I I mean in the sense that growing
1:10:03appreciation
1:10:05of and I want it I want it to continue
1:10:09all the way through to um 2041 which is
1:10:14the end 250th of the bill of rights the
1:10:17adoption of the bill of rights. I think
1:10:18the creation of our system begins in
1:10:25the declaration in 76 actually begins
1:10:27even earlier but uh but we're beginning
1:10:29it in 76 uh 1776 and it runs through
1:10:331791
1:10:35says and and as important as the
1:10:37declaration was as I say in my book
1:10:40declaring was the easy part
1:10:42>> and the war that was fought we're going
1:10:45to relive that in minute detail for
1:10:48years to come, I hope. And then um the
1:10:51Constitution, the the problems of the
1:10:54Articles of Confederation, the why we
1:10:56came up with the Constitution we did,
1:10:59why we have all these separations of
1:11:02powers that everybody is now finding
1:11:04fault with. Um why we had the electoral
1:11:07college, why these things were done. Um
1:11:10a re a reappropriation of that
1:11:12knowledge.
1:11:13>> Yeah. Um and and and frankly look also a
1:11:17re-examination of well was that a
1:11:20response to a time that's different than
1:11:22the time we have now. Do we need to
1:11:24amend the constitution? I I I I very
1:11:27much uh disagree with the uh the book
1:11:31that Jillors just published about how we
1:11:34need to open things up and radically
1:11:36revise the constitution. But I think
1:11:37she's right that we've made it too
1:11:39difficult. It's it was meant to be
1:11:42abandoned. And we and much of the
1:11:47problem with the living constitution is
1:11:50it's a way getting around the amendment
1:11:51process. We need to we need to make
1:11:53amending the constitution
1:11:56>> better. And I don't necessarily mean
1:11:58easier, but it could be easier.
1:12:00>> Anyway, I that's my goal is that we have
1:12:03a whole block of time.
1:12:06>> Yeah. uh uh that going up through the
1:12:10constitutional convention and the and
1:12:13the first
1:12:15u congress the first presidential
1:12:17administration and the adoption of the
1:12:19bill of rights.
1:12:20>> Yeah. I mean
1:12:21>> then I think the basic structure is
1:12:24complete.
1:12:25>> Yeah.
1:12:26>> Not that it doesn't change a lot in the
1:12:27years but
1:12:29>> then I think we can call off we can do
1:12:32something else.
1:12:32>> Yeah.
1:12:33>> But my goal would be to continue this as
1:12:35a celebration. Yeah,
1:12:36>> it's a celebration and a
1:12:38>> and a time for reappropriating what's
1:12:41ours, remembering who we are.
1:12:43>> Very well said.
1:12:45>> Well, Dr. Mcclelay, I want to thank you
1:12:46for doing this talk with me. I think uh
1:12:48you've obviously been a
1:12:49>> a great influence to your family and to
1:12:52the hundreds, probably thousands of
1:12:53students you've taught. But, you know,
1:12:55through this book, you are having a a
1:12:58great impact on thousands and thousands
1:13:00of kids, a ripple effect that will last
1:13:02for a very long time. So, well, I hope
1:13:04you know that. I I do and there are
1:13:07times when I am humbled by it and and a
1:13:11little bit
1:13:13what [laughter]
1:13:14>> me but you know uh I'm sure that uh uh
1:13:20[laughter]
1:13:22uh other people who feel called to
1:13:24things and I really did about halfway
1:13:27through I I kind of felt you know this I
1:13:30think this is what a calling feels like.
1:13:33Uh
1:13:33>> well, look, we we're, you know, we're
1:13:35tangentially involved with the same
1:13:37movement here. We're we're part of your
1:13:39membership. We're a member school with
1:13:40Hillsdale and teaching the book and and
1:13:43trying to perpetuate many of the
1:13:44concepts and things you talked about.
1:13:46>> It's a very positive movement. I hope
1:13:48people
1:13:49>> realize that what we're we really want
1:13:51to do is restore. We're not
1:13:57It's like um
1:13:59uh you know, we want we want to restore
1:14:01something very good. That's right. that
1:14:02that I think we've mistakenly maybe in
1:14:06some cases intentionally in some of the
1:14:07cases inadvertently um allowed to
1:14:11atrophy and and uh we want I want we
1:14:13want to restore those things.
1:14:15>> That's right.
1:14:16>> And restore the kind of human character
1:14:20that's made possible by
1:14:23>> the uh the regime we used to have.
1:14:26>> Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I'm going to
1:14:29break us here. Um, friends, thanks for
1:14:31watching the show with us today. Again,
1:14:33I'm Matthew Kirby, CEO of Liberty
1:14:34Classical Schools. Love for you to read
1:14:36more about us uh at
1:14:38libertyclasschools.org.
1:14:40We will also uh post Dr. Mcclelays a
1:14:43link to his biography and um his CV
1:14:47which is about six pages long and
1:14:49incredibly impressive. So, continue to
1:14:51learn about him and and uh thanks for
1:14:53watching and we will see you next time.
1:14:55Take care. Bye
1:14:56>> bye.
1:14:57>> Thanks, Dr. M. It's awesome.

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This page contains the full transcript of Why We Still Need to Read Books—and Remember Our History | Dr. Wilfred McClay by Liberty Classical Schools, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 12,204 words across 1,818 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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