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Why Odysseus Is The Worst Hero — Transcript

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0:0010 years after the fall of Troy, a king
0:02is still missing.
0:04His name is Odysseus, war hero, liar,
0:08survivor, and the man at the heart of
0:10one of the most influential stories ever
0:12told. Now, Homer's Odyssey is an epic
0:15poem over 2 and 1/2 thousand years old,
0:19charting a heart-pounding journey filled
0:21with storm-tossed ships, with
0:23shape-shifting monsters, witchcraft, and
0:26a hero forever at the mercy of the gods'
0:28winds. I'm your host, Tristan Hughes,
0:31and today we're getting to know Homer
0:33and his leading man, Odysseus, king of
0:35Ithaca.
0:36Guiding us through these treacherous
0:38waters is the classicist and
0:40storyteller, Emily Hauser.
0:42We'll meet our cunning king, explore how
0:45Homer shapes him on the page, and follow
0:47him from [music] the ruins of Troy
0:49through perilous seas and fateful
0:50encounters as he attempts to reach home.
0:54This is a Bronze Age world of warlord
0:57kings and an interconnected
0:59Mediterranean, a story of survival and
1:01shipwreck. Odysseus rides the waves
1:04between glory and disaster, never quite
1:07sure whether the next shore will save
1:09him or destroy him.
1:11Welcome
1:12to The Ancients.
1:16>> [music]
1:24>> Emily, it is great to have you on the
1:26show.
1:26>> Thank you so much for having me. It's a
1:27joy to be here.
1:28>> And this is the first time The first
1:30time ever that we are recording an
1:32episode in our brand new Ancient studio.
1:35You are our first guest here. We've got
1:37a lovely bookshelf.
1:38>> I've been admiring it, I have to say. I
1:39really love it. I feel like I've just
1:41kind of slotted straight in at home.
1:43>> Well, exactly. [laughter] And this is
1:44the first of many. It's a new new era
1:46for Ancients. And
1:49what a topic to kick it all off.
1:51>> Yeah, but start with the Odyssey. You've
1:52got to start with the Odyssey.
1:54>> I mean, first off, to summarize and to
1:56get people invested straight away, um
2:00what is the Odyssey? Who is Odysseus and
2:02why should we care about it today?
2:04Alongside the fact that we have this
2:07epic movie just around the corner all
2:09about it.
2:09>> Yeah, three short questions.
2:11>> [laughter]
2:12>> But yeah, absolutely. So what is the
2:13Odyssey? Well, it's an epic poem. And
2:15what we mean by that is it's a long
2:18verse poem. It's written in hexameter.
2:21That's a particular type of meter that
2:23pertains to epic. So it's These are kind
2:26of like definitions that will tell us
2:28something about the genre. And that's
2:30what it's kind of made up of, as it
2:32were. And then what it's doing is it's
2:34telling the story of Odysseus, its
2:36central hero, and it's telling the tale
2:38of his voyage home. So we've got a long
2:41epic poem. It's being kind of sung
2:44probably in oral poetry, and it's
2:45telling the tale of a hero.
2:47>> [snorts]
2:48>> And why it matters today after, you
2:50know, 2,000 years, more than 2,500,
2:532,700, maybe even 3,000 years
2:56after it was first composed, and it
2:58still has so much meaning today?
3:00>> Yeah, I mean, it's easy to sort of say,
3:02well, I've given you a definition that
3:03makes it sound like it's a kind of
3:05rather antiquated type of poem, and it's
3:07about one hero. Like, why should we care
3:09about this? I think there are a couple
3:11of different ways, really, of going into
3:12it. The first is that it's just a jolly
3:14good story. It really is just an amazing
3:17kind of story of adventure, of kind of
3:20heartbreak, loss, and longing, kind of
3:22one man's discovery of himself and his
3:24journey home. But also, perhaps more
3:27deeply than that, it's a story that has
3:29been taken for millennia to kind of mean
3:32something to people, and people have
3:34read it in different ways, they've
3:35responded to it. So, yes, Christopher
3:37Nolan is responding to it, but at the
3:39same time, he is kind of the end of just
3:41many different people who have had this
3:43poem as part of their lives. And for me,
3:45that's a really good reason to keep
3:46reading it.
3:46>> And the person who we always go back to
3:49with the story of the Odyssey, who's
3:51seen almost as this this author figure,
3:53but I appreciate it's much more
3:55complicated than that. I mean, who is
3:57this figure of Homer?
3:58>> We have to get into the Homer question.
3:59>> Sorry, it's a it's a difficult question.
4:01>> Yeah, no. [laughter] No, it has to be
4:03done. So, I mentioned right at the
4:05beginning that we're looking at song
4:07poetry here. So, you might be thinking,
4:09well, what does that mean? We're when
4:11we're talking about the Odyssey, you've
4:12got a translation of the Odyssey over
4:14there.
4:14>> I've got one right here.
4:15>> Oh, you've got one right next to you,
4:16exactly. And you that's a text that's
4:18written. So, what happened there? Well,
4:20initially, these were song poems that
4:23would have been what we call composed in
4:24performance. So, you would have had
4:26bards, experts in this kind of poetry,
4:29who would have been singing and piecing
4:30together these poems every single time
4:32they sang for an audience. Now, those
4:34got passed down over hundreds of years,
4:36and eventually, somewhere probably
4:39between the 8th and the 6th centuries
4:40BCE, those poems were written down. Um,
4:44and that became what we now call, at
4:46least an early version of the Odyssey.
4:48Um, now, in the ancient world, that was
4:50ascribed to the poet Homer. So, they
4:52thought that Homer was the poet of this
4:54particular version of the Odyssey. I
4:56think what we're seeing now is that
4:58actually it's a lot more complicated
4:59than that, and we're seeing a poem that
5:01is the end product of centuries and
5:04centuries of what we call transmission.
5:07So, that's handing down over the years
5:09between different bards, and instead of
5:10just talking about one Homer, we're
5:12probably going to talk about a lot of
5:13Homers, a lot of bards, a lot of
5:15different poets who were contributing to
5:17this epic.
5:18>> But this is what I find so interesting,
5:19this idea that, you know, for hundreds
5:21of years before this figure of Homer,
5:24or, you know, maybe figures and and so
5:25on and so forth,
5:27wrote down what we have as the Iliad and
5:29the Odyssey today, that you can go back
5:31into what we consider that the late
5:33Bronze Age, centuries before, which
5:35actually might be the origin point for
5:37when these stories were told. And then
5:39thinking just how different those
5:40stories could well have been back then.
5:42>> It's so exciting, and I actually love
5:44this, because you think of archaeology,
5:46and you think of archaeology like it's
5:48digging up stones in the ground, but
5:49actually you can do an archaeology of
5:51these poems as well, and that's really
5:53amazing. So, you can think about, okay,
5:55well, yes, what we've got is looking at
5:57kind of that 8th to 6th centuries BCE,
5:59but behind them, standing behind them,
6:01there are centuries of oral tradition
6:04that, yes, as you say, go back to the
6:05late Bronze Age. So, one of my favorite
6:07sort of clues, sort of almost
6:09fingerprints that we can find within the
6:11poems, of the fact that they do look
6:13back to a late Bronze Age world. And by
6:15the way, when I say late Bronze Age, I'm
6:17talking about kind of the period from
6:18about 1,700 to 1,200 BCE, but those
6:21kinds of origins, we can see a
6:23fingerprint in the poems, because there
6:25are some words that the poet uses that
6:27actually aren't words that they would
6:29have been using at the time when they
6:31were written down. So, one great one is
6:33the example of what Agamemnon gets
6:35called, right? As Agamemnon,
6:37king of Mycenae, exactly, Mycenae rich
6:39in gold, and he gets called in the
6:42Homeric poems "anax andron". And that
6:44means lord of men. But that word "anax"
6:47would initially have actually been
6:48pronounced "wanax", and that comes up in
6:52the writing, the Linear B tablets of the
6:54late Bronze Age. And that's a word that
6:55they were not using at the time that
6:57these poems were written down. So, it's
6:59almost like a sort of like
7:00archaeological fragment that's been left
7:02behind in the poem.
7:03>> Did you know that the ancient world's
7:05greatest monster killer, well, he was
7:07also a man who left death and
7:09destruction all around him wherever he
7:12went? From the snake-filled crib at
7:14Thebes to the impossible labors that
7:16took him across the ancient Greek world,
7:18Heracles, or Hercules if you prefer the
7:21Roman version,
7:23well, he's one of the most extraordinary
7:24figures in myth. A hero whose life was
7:27as thrilling as it was brutal. I'm
7:30Tristan Hughes, and I'm thrilled to be
7:32bringing Heracles' story to Australia
7:34this August on the Ancients Live tour.
7:38I'm going to be joined by the brilliant
7:40Alister Blanchard, Professor of Classics
7:42and Ancient History. And together, we're
7:44going to dig into the myths, the
7:46geography, and the archaeology behind
7:49the labors.
7:50From the Nemean Lion and the Hydra to
7:52Troy and the tragic end of Greece's
7:55greatest hero. Now,
7:57tickets are on sale. We are coming to
7:59Sydney on the 3rd, Brisbane on the 4th,
8:02Perth on the 6th, and finishing in
8:04Melbourne on the 9th of August. It's
8:06going to be epic. Tickets are selling
8:08fast, so book [music] yours now so you
8:10don't miss out at fame.com.au.
8:13I cannot wait to see you there.
8:16>> This style of literature
8:18from over 2 and 1/2 thousand years ago,
8:20you know, this epic these epic poems
8:23focused on these larger-than-life kind
8:25of warrior figures, these heroes. Why
8:28was this
8:30this hero literature, these hero
8:33stories, why were they so popular in
8:34ancient Greece?
8:35>> Well, it's not just a question of
8:37popularity because what we're looking at
8:39here are epics that are in some sense
8:42preserving the memory of the past. So,
8:44if you think about what's happening over
8:46the kind of hundreds of years that these
8:48oral stories are being handed down, at
8:50that point after the end of the late
8:52Bronze Age, around 1200 BCE, we get a
8:55massive civilization collapse of that
8:58late Bronze Age.
8:58>> Age collapse, yeah.
9:00>> Age collapse, exactly. And writing
9:02disappears. So, all you have left at
9:05that point are the songs that tell the
9:07glory stories of the days that have come
9:10and the men that went before you, the
9:11generations of kings, to understand who
9:14you are. So, for the Greeks, this was
9:15very much a project of understanding
9:18themselves and their history. And
9:19there's one little anecdote that I
9:21really love, which is that apparently
9:23the Greeks believed that if all of the
9:25Greeks who'd been returning from the
9:27Trojan War had died on their way home,
9:29then they actually as a civilization
9:31would have become extinct. So, it's
9:33really like a founding event for them.
9:35So, yes, you're thinking about heroes,
9:37but this isn't quite the same as kind of
9:39thinking about the Marvel superheroes,
9:41because these are heroes who help you to
9:43understand who you are in the world.
9:45They're also heroes you're probably
9:46going to be worshipping through hero
9:47cult. So, you're really interacting with
9:50and engaging with these heroes.
9:52>> they also are figures like Odysseus, are
9:54they people that the Greeks, the people
9:55listening to these stories, they would
9:57think I want to try and be like them.
10:00Are they try like like our idea of a
10:01hero today is someone like you look up
10:04to, but at the same time I I quite I
10:06quite like to be like them almost.
10:07>> I think a hero is actually quite
10:09different for the ancient Greeks.
10:10>> Interesting.
10:11>> Yeah, and it's really interesting to
10:12kind of plumb that difference. So, the
10:14word is the same. So, the ancient Greek
10:16word for hero is heros. It's where we
10:18get hero from. Um but there are kind of
10:21two things that I think we can pull out
10:22from that. One is that a hero really
10:25means someone who is between the time
10:28when the gods walked the earth and the
10:31time when it was just a kind of
10:32impoverished time of mortals battling
10:35each other out. So, the heroes are
10:37demigods. They're sort of um you know,
10:39think of Achilles who's the son of
10:41Thetis, a goddess, or Helen who was the
10:43daughter of Zeus. We've got these sort
10:45of larger-than-life figures, and that is
10:47what a hero is. They're from an earlier
10:49time period that stretched back to the
10:50gods. But the other thing I mentioned is
10:52hero cult. So, they are also people who
10:55when they die, you are going to go and
10:56worship to ask them to maybe kind of
10:59intercede with you or to kind of give
11:01you a little bit of a kind of closer
11:02stepping point into the gods. So, I'm
11:04not sure that you're ever thinking
11:06you're going to be like them. They are
11:07from a time that has gone, but they can
11:09help you, and they're people that you
11:11can call on in the
11:11>> And they're and they're not faultless at
11:12the same time as we're going to explore.
11:14There are lots of
11:15There are lots of people who suffer ruin
11:16at the hands of heroes like this figure
11:19of Odysseus around them.
11:20>> Indeed. So, that's the other thing is
11:22that heroes and that's not really kind
11:24of implicit in the word. That's what we
11:25see from their action. Heroes are people
11:28who are actually deeply destructive to
11:30their communities. And I feel like this
11:32is something that we kind of as modern
11:33readers when we see the word hero, we
11:35don't think about. But um if you think
11:37about someone like Odysseus, when he
11:39gets home at the end of the Odyssey, he
11:40ends up killing pretty much everyone who
11:43is in his palace, all of the men
11:45certainly. Um if you think of someone
11:47like Achilles who starts off the Iliad,
11:49he begins the Iliad by deciding to
11:51retreat from the war in order that his
11:53fellow Greeks get killed so he gets
11:56glory. In fact, Achilles' name, there's
11:58one kind of version of the etymology of
12:00his name that actually means grief to
12:03the people. So, a hero is like deeply
12:05destructive.
12:07>> So, the period in which this is all set,
12:09in the last episode we explored kind of
12:11the Bronze Age world in which the Trojan
12:13War is set and getting more
12:14understanding kind of the kernels of
12:15truth behind these stories. And so, we
12:18think of it as the Late Bronze Age
12:19world, but the ancient Greeks, they as
12:21you're saying, this Age of Heroes, see
12:23when there was still contact between
12:24gods and and men. Um but this is a time
12:27when we should be imagining Greece as
12:29not one country divided up between
12:32states, palaces, kings as well. That but
12:36but at the same time
12:37the world in which it's part of it's
12:39interconnected with other great powers.
12:42That's the Late Bronze Age world we
12:44should be thinking of with stories like
12:45the Odyssey and Odysseus.
12:46>> Absolutely. So, if we're thinking about
12:49looking at Late Bronze Age history, and
12:50obviously kind of we got to make the
12:52qualification here that we're not seeing
12:53kind of any easy continuity between
12:56okay, like well, the Odyssey is
12:57definitely depicting the Late Bronze
12:59Age. What we're saying instead is that
13:01probably the Late Bronze Age is one
13:03layer in a historical memory that is
13:06kind of making up the Odyssey. Um but
13:08yes, what we're looking at when we're
13:09looking at the Bronze Age or indeed
13:11periods of history later is that we are
13:13not seeing a kind of unified country
13:16that is called Greece, that call
13:17themselves Greeks. Um instead, you've
13:19got what we call city-states um where
13:21you've got a kind of citadel um a kind
13:24of sitting at the heart of a larger kind
13:26of element of land. and the kind of
13:28famous ones in the late Bronze Age are
13:31and and this we have this from kind of
13:32archaeology, from the evidence of of
13:34different citadels. We've got Mycenae,
13:36which is a big one on the Peloponnese.
13:38We've got Pylos on the southwest
13:39Peloponnese. We've got Tiryns. Um so,
13:42we've got these kinds of locations. Um
13:44and what's really interesting is that
13:45many of those actually match up with the
13:48places that are come some of the core
13:49locations in Homer.
13:51>> And Odysseus, he is from this place
13:53called Ithaca. Now, where are we talking
13:56with Ithaca?
13:57>> So, Ithaca is so difficult because and
13:59you know, I mentioned that we've got
14:00these lovely match-ups like Mycenae,
14:02which is an incredibly wealthy citadel.
14:05It's got lots and lots of gold in the
14:07archaeology. What does Homer say? He
14:09says it's a wealthy citadel, rich in
14:11gold. So, it's very easy to make kind of
14:13easy connections there. With somewhere
14:15like Ithaca, it reminds us, I think, to
14:17be a lot more careful. Um and the reason
14:19I say that, you might be thinking,
14:20"Well, he- hang on a minute. There is
14:22There is an island called Ithaca. Why is
14:24this uh not a problem?" There is a
14:25modern island, Ithaki. Um the problem
14:28that we have with that is that in Homer,
14:30Homer actually gives a really detailed
14:32description of Odysseus's island of
14:34Ithaca. He says that it lies low down to
14:37the sea. It is in a group of four
14:39islands um that the Ionian Islands, and
14:42that of those group of islands, it's
14:43furthest to the west. And the issue is
14:45that modern Ithaki is none of those.
14:48>> [laughter]
14:49>> So, we've got only three islands. Ithaki
14:51is very mountainous, and it's not the
14:53furthest to the west. So, in terms of
14:54kind of where we're putting Odysseus, it
14:56throws a bit of a spanner in the works.
14:58>> But um we won't delve much into the
15:00archaeology, but do we get a sense at
15:03all that this island of Ithaca, wherever
15:05it was, somewhere in the in those
15:06western islands,
15:08a prominent player at the time that the
15:10Odyssey is set, or is this very much an
15:12outlying power?
15:13>> It's more of an outlying power, I would
15:15say, because we get a couple of
15:17different um sort of signs towards that.
15:19Um one is, in fact, what Odysseus and
15:22also his son Telemachus say about their
15:24island and they talk about it as being
15:26like quite rocky, uh, not very fertile,
15:29only good for goats, that kind of thing.
15:32Um, so it that's that's sort of their
15:34own testimony. It's not like somewhere
15:36where Mycenae has this epithet, uh, an
15:39adjective which calls it rich in gold.
15:41We're not getting that. Um, the other
15:43thing is in terms of the number of ships
15:45that it sends to Troy and we're seeing,
15:47you know, Agamemnon, the kind of wealthy
15:49overlord of the Greeks he is sending a
15:50lot of ships. Odysseus is not kind of
15:52matching the same. So we're not looking
15:54at one of the principal powers in
15:56Homer's world.
15:57>> Let's introduce Odysseus now, his
15:58character before we explore his story in
16:01the Odyssey because there's a lot of
16:02information about him before the events
16:05of the epic, you know, his namesake
16:07epic. Um, shall we start with his
16:09origins first of all and his background?
16:10Do we know much about that?
16:12>> Well, we do. We know about his parents.
16:14Um, so, uh, for instance, we know his
16:16father is called Laertes cuz we meet him
16:18in, uh, the Odyssey. Um, he's at the end
16:21he's sort of cracking up a little bit
16:22cuz his son is taking a while to get
16:24back home. Uh, we know about his mom
16:26Anticlea who also has issues with grief
16:28because her son doesn't come home and we
16:30meet her in the Odyssey in the
16:31underworld. So we've got a bit of his
16:32backstory there. Um, we know that he
16:34grew up on Ithaca and in fact we even
16:36know the name of his enslaved nurse,
16:39Eurycleia, um, because she is the one
16:41who we're told brought him up. She has
16:43an important role to play which we'll
16:44find out later. Um, and we also know
16:47that he got into quite a serious hunting
16:49accident when he was a boy, um, in that
16:51he was out hunting a boar, um, and he
16:54had a running with the boar and he got a
16:55massive scar down his leg, uh, which
16:58obviously is quite handy if you're
16:59trying to identify a hero who's been
17:01traveling for 20 years and comes back
17:03home. Um, but that's kind of quite a
17:04significant part of his youth. Um, we
17:07then get to kind of the fact of, uh, you
17:09know, into the Trojan War. Uh, he is
17:12sort of one of the suitors for Helen.
17:14So, you know, this is the first time
17:16>> of or Helen of Sparta.
17:17Exactly. We're starting Helen of Sparta.
17:20So Helen of Sparta, the most beautiful
17:21woman in the world. We've mentioned
17:23she's she's the daughter of Zeus. And
17:26she essentially kind of goes on the
17:27marriage market or at least her father
17:29puts her on and makes a stipulation that
17:31there is going to be a kind of contest
17:33for her hand. So all of the suitors
17:35flock to to Helen. And in fact it's
17:38Odysseus who has the idea that Helen
17:40should be the one to choose her own
17:42suitor.
17:43>> he expect?
17:45Does he expect that that she's going to
17:46choose him or
17:47>> He doesn't. He expects that he's going
17:48to get a reward from Helen's father. So
17:50this is Odysseus through and through.
17:52He's very canny canny operator. Exactly.
17:55And so he knows that he if he suggests
17:57this very clever solution, he's going to
17:58get a reward. And his reward is the hand
18:00of Penelope who is Helen's cousin.
18:03>> So that's another key figure in the
18:04story, Penelope, his wife.
18:06>> Exactly.
18:07>> And so how do we get to Odysseus then
18:10being involved in the Trojan War? What
18:11are the key events that we should think
18:13of primarily with Odysseus when he gets
18:16to that time when Helen of Sparta
18:18becomes Helen of Troy?
18:20>> Well, exactly. And that's at the point
18:21right where Paris has come to Sparta,
18:23Paris, the prince of Troy. He has, you
18:26know, basically been given Helen as his
18:28prize by Aphrodite, the the goddess of
18:30love. And Odysseus then kind of is in a
18:32as all of the Greeks are in a bit of a
18:34pickle because
18:36Menelaus, Helen's husband who has been
18:38wronged, whose
18:39wife has been stolen from him by this
18:41this Trojan prince, goes to Agamemnon,
18:44lord of all of the Greeks, Agamemnon,
18:45his brother. And he says, "I need to get
18:47my wife back." And Agamemnon immediately
18:49says he's going to round up all of the
18:51Greeks. Well, Odysseus quite clearly
18:53doesn't want to go. And this is quite
18:55interesting because many of the other
18:57Greeks are sort of quite happy to to get
18:59on with the business, get themselves a
19:01little bit of glory. But not Odysseus.
19:03And what he does is he pretends to be
19:05mad.
19:07So he pretends that he can sort of try
19:08and get away out of the conscription
19:11essentially.
19:12But this kind of trickster called
19:14Palamedes, who is every bit as tricky as
19:16Odysseus, uh, realizes that he might be
19:18kind of pulling one over his eyes, and
19:20so he takes his baby, his baby son at
19:22that point, Telemachus, um, Penelope and
19:25Odysseus's son, and he puts the baby son
19:27in front of the plow, where Odysseus is
19:29pretending that he's kind of gone crazy
19:31and
19:31>> sand, isn't he, or something like that?
19:33>> he's this kind of loony farmer, and, uh,
19:37Palamedes puts, uh, the baby in front of
19:39the plow, and of course, Odysseus steers
19:41his plow around the baby, and so
19:42Palamedes has proven that Odysseus is
19:44not mad, and he can go to Troy.
19:47>> And is his hesitancy, is there also, cuz
19:50I feel this is important for the story
19:52of the Odyssey itself, is there a
19:54prophecy that if you go to if he goes to
19:56Troy, he's not going to be able to
19:57return to Ithaca for some time?
19:59>> There isn't, no. So, there's no sense of
20:01him kind of knowing that this is going
20:03to be a long voyage home. Um, so when he
20:06goes to Troy, I don't think anyone
20:08expects that it's going to be a 10-year
20:09war, um, and then, you know, similarly,
20:12I don't think anyone expects he's going
20:13to take 10 years to get back home again.
20:15So, no, this is just the start of a long
20:17and sort of winding voyage. He does get
20:18other prophecies later in the story
20:20about where he's going next, but not
20:22right now.
20:23>> And [snorts]
20:24should we briefly then mention also
20:26what are the key highlights of Odysseus
20:27during the Trojan War itself, the the
20:30episodes where he his cunning, isn't it,
20:32more than anything really takes center
20:34stage?
20:35>> Yeah, I mean, it's easy to think of
20:36Odysseus as only the hero of the
20:38Odyssey, um, because that's got his name
20:40stamped right up there on the front. Uh,
20:42but actually, he has quite a lot to do
20:44in the Iliad. Um, now we've been talking
20:46about the Iliad and mentioning, uh, this
20:48name, but for those who aren't familiar,
20:49that is, uh, the other epic poem
20:51ascribed to Homer in antiquity, um, the
20:54epic of the Trojan War, although it
20:55actually only tells quite a small bit of
20:58the Trojan War, and
21:00what we're looking at in terms of these
21:01kind of epics that I mentioned, these
21:03songs that tell the stories of the
21:04Trojan War, there are actually a lot of
21:06other ones as well. So, yes, we've got
21:08the Iliad and we've got Odysseus in the
21:09Iliad, and what he does there is it's
21:12not all cunning, actually,
21:13interestingly. He's quite kind of he's
21:15mentioned as being quite stocky, quite
21:16kind of strong. He does plenty of
21:18fighting of his own, so
21:19>> But Odysseus, okay.
21:20>> You know, absolutely. He does a little
21:22bit of a spy reconnaissance mission in
21:24the one book of the Iliad, goes out and
21:26kills a few Trojans at night.
21:28But then, of course, famously, and this
21:30is outside the Iliad, this is in another
21:32one of those epics, he is the one who
21:34comes up with the idea of the Trojan
21:36Horse.
21:37>> Horse, okay, right.
21:38>> And that is really where his kind of
21:40cunning comes into play, this idea that,
21:42you know, you could get this massive
21:43build a massive wooden horse, fill it
21:45with Greeks, pretend that you had left
21:48at all of the Greeks their ships creep
21:49over the horizon, hide behind one of the
21:51islands, the Trojans think that this is
21:54an offering to the gods, they drag it
21:55into the city, and then all of the
21:56Greeks leap out, and they manage to raze
21:58Troy to the ground. So, that is
22:00Odysseus's idea.
22:01>> And he's one of the masterminds,
22:02therefore, behind the fall of Troy.
22:05And in other tragedies in the after
22:07Achilles' death, there's the fight for
22:09his armor, and Odysseus wins Achilles'
22:12armor as well.
22:12>> There is, and it's a really tragic
22:14episode because, basically, the Greeks
22:16start squabbling over who gets this
22:18great honor to have Achilles' armor.
22:20It's also some of it made by the gods,
22:22so it's also incredibly kind of costly
22:24and precious armor. But the main kind of
22:26ones who are kind of putting themselves
22:28forward are Odysseus and Ajax, who is
22:30another Greek hero.
22:32And when Ajax loses, he just absolutely
22:35cannot deal with this kind of insult to
22:36his honor, and he actually ends up
22:37committing suicide, really tragically.
22:40So, Odysseus is very much embroiled in
22:43all of the kind of politics of the
22:44Trojan War and the Greek camp.
22:46>> And these stories, therefore, we have of
22:47Odysseus before the Odyssey, kind of
22:49setting him up for the Odyssey, is is
22:51made very clear then that he he's a
22:52major character in the story. And yes,
22:56he's not a king on the same level as
22:58Menelaus or Agamemnon, we should still
23:01view him as a king with men as well that
23:04have followed him to fight in the Trojan
23:06War.
23:06>> Absolutely. We should see him as a king.
23:08We should see him as a warrior. You
23:09know, he is not just the Odysseus of the
23:12Odyssey who is the man who is trying to
23:14get home. That is what that particular
23:16epic poem is doing. That's what it's
23:18about. But when you put him in the
23:19Iliad, when you put him in a war epic,
23:21and you put him in a Trojan War, he is
23:23going to fight and he's going to be a
23:24warrior and a king just like all of the
23:26other Greeks.
23:26>> So how do we think how should we think
23:28of Odysseus then now we get to the the
23:31beginning of the Odyssey from all the
23:33other sources that survive that give us
23:35more information about Odysseus' role
23:37before he leaves Troy. Do we have an
23:39idea very much of the context in which
23:42he is leaving Troy?
23:44Is it very much
23:45after is it a traumatic experience was
23:47he feeling very
23:48very good about himself before all of
23:50his his successes and his cunning and so
23:52on?
23:53>> We don't have evidence from the
23:54literature about how he's feeling, but
23:57we know what's happening and what is
23:59happening is pretty dire. So when Troy
24:01has been burned to the ground, one of
24:04the key features of that burning is that
24:06the women of the of the Trojans all get
24:08enslaved and captured by the Greeks. And
24:10they are particularly keen to enslave
24:13women who are high status. So they all
24:15get portioned out and Odysseus gets
24:17given Hecuba who is the queen of Troy.
24:20So he gets an incredibly high status
24:22enslaved captive woman. So there is a
24:24huge tragedy there and that's something
24:26that later writers are really interested
24:28in. At the same time, what is happening
24:31in the kind of capture of Troy is deeply
24:34unsalutary. And one of these kinds of
24:37like moments where it just really shifts
24:39towards the dark side is when we get
24:41another Ajax. Now this isn't the same
24:43Ajax we talked about earlier.
24:45Hopefully we call him the lesser Ajax
24:48just to differentiate him. But he ends
24:50up horribly raping Cassandra and he
24:54rapes her as she's clinging to the
24:56statue of Athena. And it's a horrible
24:58kind of moment, but it's really a step
25:00too far for the Greeks. And Athena, who
25:02has always been a patron goddess of the
25:03Greeks,
25:04is both kind of outraged by this, but
25:07also deeply insulted because of kind of
25:09what's happened to her her shrine, her
25:10temple. And so she lays a curse on the
25:13Greeks. And this curse, this huge storm,
25:16is that they are not going to get home,
25:17or if they do, there's going to be real
25:19trouble. And this is the beginning of
25:21the troubles that Odysseus encounters.
25:22>> Right, so let's get into the Odyssey
25:24itself.
25:25And I find it fascinating, but it kind
25:27of harkens back to what you were saying
25:28there.
25:30The first way that Odysseus is
25:32described, right at the beginning, is as
25:34polytropos.
25:35>> Mhm.
25:36>> What do we mean by that?
25:38>> I mean, we could spend an entire episode
25:39on this one word.
25:41>> Let's not.
25:41>> Let's not. Let's not. Let's not. But
25:43it's fascinating. So,
25:45let's start with the basics of what it
25:47is. It's an adjective, or what we would
25:49call an epithet. Now, these epithets are
25:52basically words that are attributed to
25:54particular characters, particular nouns,
25:57so you get them kind of often put
25:58together. So, you get like rosy-fingered
26:00dawn is a really famous one, wine-dark
26:02sea. And here we've got polytropos
26:05Odysseus. So, we've got Odysseus, and
26:07here is his epithet polytropos. Now,
26:09what does that mean? What's it telling
26:11us about him that he is getting this
26:13tag, as it were? Um it's kind of made up
26:16of two different parts. Poly means much
26:19or many, tropos means turning or turned.
26:22So, he is the man who makes many turns,
26:26but he is also the man who is much
26:28turned. And what I love about that is it
26:31it suggests he's someone who's cunning.
26:33He can make things happen for himself.
26:35He can make turns, he can make voyages,
26:37but he's also someone who is the object
26:40of the wrath of the gods, someone who is
26:41turned about on his way home.
26:43>> Mhm.
26:43>> So, we start the opening of the Odyssey
26:46with this man who already is kind of
26:48resisting definition. He is both someone
26:50who makes things happen, but also things
26:52happen to him.
26:52>> Gosh, that's interesting. That adds more
26:54complexity to his character straight
26:55away. And you would then expect that the
26:58Odyssey will begin well at Troy. You
27:00know, he's going to start his journey
27:02home and then it all goes horribly
27:03wrong.
27:05That's not quite the case though, is it?
27:06This is a
27:09>> It really is. And it can be sort of
27:11quite confusing. You a little bit like
27:12Odysseus, you're getting sort of tossed
27:14and turned about in the narrative. And
27:16but that's part of kind of thing I think
27:17what makes it such an exciting adventure
27:19to go on because you are sort of joining
27:21Odysseus as he tries to wend his way
27:23home. So yeah, we start the Odyssey in
27:25fact sort of very close to the end of
27:27his travels where he is being kept on
27:30the island of Calypso, at least that's
27:31what he says that he's being kept
27:33prisoner on an island called Ogygia.
27:35And he's trapped there for 7 years. And
27:38Athena storms onto Mount Olympus and
27:41says to Zeus, "It's time that we let
27:43Odysseus go. Will you not take pity on
27:45him?" And Zeus ultimately relents and he
27:48says, "Okay, I will send Hermes, the
27:50messenger of the gods." And Hermes wings
27:52his way towards Odysseus' island. And
27:54that's kind of the point where we get
27:55into the story where okay, Odysseus is
27:57going to be set free from the place
27:59where he has spent most of his time on
28:01his return, and maybe he's going to
28:03start getting home. And we do have to
28:05mention the prequel before this as well
28:07because otherwise people will say,
28:08"Well, what about those first four
28:10books?" And then four books later they
28:11say, "Well, actually you don't really
28:12talk about Odysseus at all. You focus on
28:16his home on Ithaca and the the troubles
28:18of his son Telemachus as well. So should
28:20we should we briefly mention what this
28:22is as well? I feel it's important that
28:23we do.
28:24>> Absolutely. Well, what's interesting is
28:25that and this is incredibly kind of
28:27advanced narrative making because we've
28:29got two narratives happening at the same
28:31time. As Athena decides okay, she's set
28:34Odysseus' release in motion, Hermes is
28:36flying down from Mount Olympus. At the
28:38same time, Athena then leaves and she
28:40goes to Ithaca. And she lands on Ithaca
28:42disguised as a man and she meets
28:44Telemachus, the son of Penelope and
28:46Odysseus. Now, by now he is a teenager.
28:49He's been waiting for his dad the whole
28:51way through the Trojan War and then
28:52you've got the 10 years also of the
28:53return
28:54or nearly 10 years at this point. So,
28:56you know, he's coming close to kind of
28:58being a man. Um and we get the first few
29:01books of the Odyssey while Hermes is on
29:03his way to go and get Odysseus.
29:05>> it's like in real time kind of thing.
29:07>> At the same time, we get Telemachus's
29:09story and we get Telemachus going on his
29:11own little sort of mini voyage. And I
29:13kind of love this cuz he really wants to
29:14be like his father. So, instead of doing
29:16an Odyssey, he's Telemachus, so he does
29:18a Telemachy. Um and he go
29:20>> [laughter]
29:20>> he goes to uh Sparta and he goes to
29:22Pylos. And he goes basically to the big
29:24kings of the time to try and get
29:25information about where his father is.
29:27>> I always think it's it's really clever
29:28that because it it does that it
29:30introduces you to the fates of the other
29:32big figures that you would have heard
29:33from the Trojan War. So, you hear in
29:35that story the the the bad fate of
29:37Agamemnon when he's um murdered by
29:39either his wife or his love her lover
29:41Aegisthus when he gets back to Mycenae.
29:43The Helen of Sparta
29:45>> Yeah, she's Sparta again now.
29:47>> [laughter]
29:47>> Also, Helen of Egypt's the right as
29:49well. That's another story to go down
29:51that we won't today, but
29:52>> She's had a bit of a detour on the way
29:53home.
29:53>> Well, exactly. And then Menelaus and
29:55Nestor, wise sage old Nestor liking his
29:57sacrifices on the beaches and his
29:59chariots and all that. Um so, you get
30:01all the it's like almost like a
30:02backstory like these first four books as
30:05well as Telemachus is doing his thing.
30:06By the way, this is what happened to the
30:08other figures before we get to the main
30:10man Odysseus himself.
30:11>> It is. It's a backstory, but what it's
30:12also doing is it's also pegging itself
30:15into all of those other epics that would
30:17have been told about these figures. So,
30:19I mentioned that, you know, there were
30:20all of these other songs and poems
30:22circulating and these were called the
30:25returns, the nostoi in Greek. And so,
30:28basically you would have had a return
30:29epic of Menelaus, you know, the king of
30:31Sparta. You'd have had a return epic of
30:33Nestor. And we get these kind of in
30:35miniature as Telemachus goes round. He's
30:37always collecting little epic tales of
30:40all of the Greeks and how they returned
30:41home.
30:41>> Gosh, okay. Well, let's go
30:44We should also mention the other big
30:45theme and you've
30:46touched on it already,
30:48the likes of Athena, Hermes, Zeus, and
30:50so on.
30:51The massive role that the gods will also
30:55play in this epic, in the return, in the
30:57homecoming of Odysseus.
30:59>> Absolutely. I mean, you can't talk about
31:01the Odyssey without talking about the
31:02gods. And I think it's really important
31:04to remember we start with a council of
31:07the gods, you know, trying to get
31:08Odysseus home. So, they are part and
31:10parcel of the I mean, we have them
31:12popping up in so many different ways.
31:14For the Odyssey, probably the main one
31:16is Athena. She is the daughter of Zeus,
31:18goddess of war and wisdom, and she
31:21really takes it upon herself to be a
31:23kind of the proactive protector,
31:26guider of Odysseus, and making sure that
31:28he gets home. And he really has quite a
31:30kind of intimate relationship with her,
31:32where they have conversations back and
31:34forth,
31:34>> [snorts]
31:35>> a really kind of strong sense of these
31:37being quite two quite similar
31:38characters, you know, goddess wisdom,
31:40and he's quite a cunning chap. And so,
31:42they really can kind of see that and
31:44sympathize with each other. But you also
31:45get other gods and and also kind of
31:47lesser gods as well coming in like the
31:49nymph Calypso or Circe, who is the
31:52daughter of Helios, the sun god. So, all
31:55kinds of other gods as well.
31:56>> Well, on the ancients, we're going to
31:57very much keep true to the original
31:59order of the Odyssey. So, we've
32:02mentioned that Telemachus
32:04and you've already highlighted how the
32:06start of Odysseus' story is not at the
32:09Trojan War. It's actually several years
32:12later when he's on
32:14this island
32:15and being held there by this figure of
32:18Calypso.
32:19>> Mhm.
32:20>> Let's introduce Calypso. Who is this
32:21figure?
32:22>> So, Calypso's great. Her name means the
32:24concealer in Greek. Comes from calypten,
32:27which means to hide or conceal. So,
32:29already we're getting the sense that
32:31she's sort of hiding Odysseus away on
32:33her island.
32:34He is there for 7 years. We find that
32:37out um as Hermes flies down onto the
32:40island of Ogigia and demands that she
32:43let Odysseus go. And Calypso makes this
32:45extraordinary request where she says
32:47essentially, "I want him to stay with me
32:50and I would make him immortal if I if I
32:52could if you would stay I'd make him
32:54immortal." So, you know, a really little
32:56sense that Calypso wants Odysseus to
32:57stay behind but we see Odysseus on the
32:59shore of her island weeping, thinking
33:01back to Ithaca, thinking of Penelope.
33:03So, he really uh kind of does want to go
33:05home and eventually she accedes to
33:08Hermes' request and she gives him what
33:10he needs, which is he needs the tools to
33:12make a raft and he needs a sail and
33:14clothes to get on his voyage.
33:16>> Right, so this isn't kind of a sneak
33:17away escape. This is um
33:20Calypso gives in because the gods have
33:21said it's enough. It's been 7 years now.
33:24You can't keep him any longer.
33:25>> Yeah. Well, exactly and there's almost a
33:27sense of kind of the the right divine
33:30order of things being offended, you
33:31know? A goddess does not live with a
33:33mortal is kind of what Hermes is saying.
33:35And in fact Calypso speaks back and she
33:37says, "Well, actually there's plenty of
33:38examples I can give you." So, she's
33:40quite sassy about her response. Um but
33:42the sense is no, the hierarchy has
33:44spoken, Zeus has spoken, and Calypso
33:47kind of has no choice but to let
33:48Odysseus go.
33:49>> And do you think because the the story
33:50of Odysseus proper in the Odyssey starts
33:52there that we're meant to have that kind
33:55of that missed, that lack of clarity as
33:59to the many trials and tribulations he'd
34:01he'd suffered up to that point and then
34:03you're kind of
34:05you're you're left knowing that that
34:07will be revealed in time how he got to
34:09Calypso's island. Like it's deliberately
34:11it starts at Calypso's island and leaves
34:13that what happened before shrouded in
34:15mystery to be revealed at a later time.
34:17>> Yeah, I mean what's difficult is you're
34:19thinking probably about where the
34:20audiences are coming to this from and
34:22probably audiences who are who are
34:24dealing with this and listening to this
34:25story they kind of already know where
34:27it's going. Um and that gives a
34:29flexibility to the storytelling because
34:31it means, you know, you've already
34:33started the epic. So, the epic begins
34:34with what we call a proem, which is
34:36essentially the opening few lines that
34:38kind of set out the stakes and the
34:39narrative and where it's going. And that
34:42sort of covers all of the trials and
34:44tribulations that he went through, all
34:45the cities he sacked, the men he lost as
34:48he was trying to get them their voyage
34:50home. So, we kind of know that that's
34:51happened, but we don't know the details.
34:53And it's a beautiful moment of sort of
34:54like, well, you've got to wait. And when
34:57do you When do you have to wait until
34:58Well, you've got to wait until Odysseus
34:59tells us himself.
35:01>> I'm getting there, aren't we? So, So,
35:02the story is he's allowed to build a
35:04raft, and does he escape?
35:06>> He does, yeah. So, he gets off uh
35:08Calypso's island. Um he has another
35:11massive storm. Obviously, storms on the
35:12Mediterranean [laughter]
35:13very much a feature of Odysseus's
35:15journey. Um and he gets washed up on
35:17another island, um which is the island
35:19of the Phaeacians.
35:20>> The Phaeacians. Okay, I've heard of the
35:22Phoenicians, I've heard of the
35:23Phocaeans, never heard of the
35:25Phaeacians.
35:26>> Yes. So, very confusingly, their island
35:28in Homer is called Scheria. Um so,
35:31doesn't have anything to do with it. So,
35:32I like to call it the island of the
35:33Phaeacians just to kind of, you know,
35:35keep ourselves
35:36um on the same page. But, yes, so he
35:38washes up on this island completely
35:40naked. He's lost his raft, he's got
35:42nothing. Um and as he washes up on the
35:45shore, who should happen to be there at
35:47that moment but the princess of the
35:48Phaeacians, Nausicaa.
35:49>> Nausicaa. Okay, I've heard the word
35:51Nausicaa before.
35:52>> Yes.
35:52>> And so, what happens next?
35:54>> So, Nausicaa, in a kind of beautiful
35:56moment, has basically kind of been sent
35:59out with her dowry clothes. And she
36:02essentially has been uh packing up all
36:04of these beautiful clothes that she is
36:05going to take with her when she gets
36:07married. And she's just kind of had this
36:09intimation from Athena that it might be
36:11a good idea to take these to the shore
36:14and wash them in case she gets married
36:15anytime soon. And she meets a naked man
36:17on the beach. And Nausicaa, of course,
36:19is very much taken by this and starts
36:21thinking, well, potentially this is This
36:23is my man.
36:24>> [laughter]
36:24>> Um Odysseus, it must be said, does
36:26nothing to dispel that and he very much
36:29kind of plays on that. He says, you
36:31know, "Whoever manages to get you and
36:33kind of manages to marry you will be
36:35very lucky indeed." So, there's
36:37definitely an element of kind of
36:38courtship going on here. In any case,
36:41Nausicaa offers him clothes. She has
36:43clothes with her, that's lucky, and she
36:45leads him back to the city of the
36:46Phaeacians and there he has to
36:48supplicate, that means throw himself at
36:50the mercy of the queen whose name is
36:53Arete.
36:54>> Exploring kind of the
36:55like the kernels of truth behind these
36:57stories, I sometimes love looking at
36:59on a map and where people like to think
37:01that these islands were in the ancient
37:04Mediterranean. Do we have any idea where
37:06they they place the island of Calypso
37:07and then the island of the Phaeacians?
37:10>> So, Odyssey hunting has been a favorite
37:12sport of Homeric scholars and in fact,
37:14many kind of amateurs alike over the
37:16centuries. So,
37:18lots of people have kind of engaged in
37:19trying to find these different
37:20locations. You find all kinds of
37:22different examples given. So, for
37:25Calypso, sometimes you get Malta for
37:27instance as one of the islands that's
37:29put forward. For the island of the
37:31Phaeacians, Corfu,
37:33which is obviously just north of where
37:35we've got the modern-day Ionian Islands.
37:37>> far away by that point.
37:38>> It's not that far away and in fact, you
37:39know, this is his his last stop before
37:41he gets back to Ithaca.
37:43To me, I feel like that kind of games
37:45maybe slightly reduces the sense that we
37:47are still in fantasy land, you know? And
37:50this is when when he comes to the palace
37:52of the king whose name is Alcinous. This
37:55palace is surrounded by an orchard with
37:57fruits that never dies, you know? It's
37:59it's fruiting all through the year. The
38:01idea that, you know, we are in some kind
38:03of mystical paradise that does not exist
38:05in the real world. I think we want to
38:07kind of make sure that we remember that
38:08this is very much a kind of other land
38:10that he then gets drawn back into the
38:12real world of humans.
38:13>> So, it is very true and to highlight
38:15that, but I mean, I do and I will ask
38:17those questions again and again because
38:19at the same time
38:20>> [snorts]
38:21>> the real kind of longevity of those
38:23stories that they have for actual real
38:24ancient populations who lived in those
38:26areas that become associated with key
38:28parts of let's say the Odyssey with like
38:30the the Sirens later and so on that they
38:32they that they believed that they lived
38:35in that kind of area of the world and
38:36then it becomes a part of their identity
38:37as well. I love that part of it.
38:39>> does and I think you're right and that's
38:40kind of goes back to what I said at the
38:41beginning that this is a poem that
38:43people have lived with and I really love
38:45that that it's something that has become
38:46a part of people. So yes, if we're
38:47talking about the Odyssey itself and
38:50we're talking about what it's doing for
38:51the narrative, maybe we can sit in
38:52fantasy. But if we can think about what
38:54it's meant to people, then absolutely
38:56let's do that.
38:57>> So the island of the Phaeacians,
38:58wherever it is,
38:59um
39:01princess expecting to be married finds
39:03naked man on beach.
39:05>> Yeah.
39:05>> Um gives naked man clothes.
39:08Naked man seems to be in a courtship
39:10there as well, Odysseus.
39:11Uh and then she takes him to
39:15as you do with every naked man who
39:17washes up on the beach, uh takes him
39:18straight away to her mom and to the
39:20queen.
39:20>> to her to her parents. And her mom says,
39:22"Why is he wearing something that I've
39:24woven?"
39:25>> [laughter]
39:25>> Because obviously she has woven
39:28the tunic that he's wearing. So, yes, um
39:30but no, that's what Odysseus needs. He
39:32needs a ship home and in order to get
39:34that, he has to ask this kind of biggest
39:37favor from the queen of the Phaeacians
39:39who we're told is the one who really
39:41kind of makes all of the decisions in
39:42the land which is really interesting. Um
39:45and he he asks for hospitality. This is
39:48a key theme that runs throughout the
39:50Odyssey, this theme of xenia,
39:52hospitality. Um the fact that you know,
39:54if you have nothing, you can throw
39:55yourself on someone's mercy and you can
39:57ask them for something and that's
39:58exactly what the Phaeacians do. So, um
40:00Arete immediately gets lovely gifts for
40:03him, makes sure that he has a bath, uh
40:05they give him a feast, uh they have a
40:07bard play songs for him, they give him
40:09games and athletics.
40:11>> [laughter]
40:11>> And at that point, uh they also then
40:12send him home on a brilliant ship that
40:14actually can, you know, go by itself. It
40:16doesn't even need oars. Um so, you know,
40:19they are the paradigmatic good hosts.
40:21>> And the And so, the king is there as
40:23well, but he seems to always be second
40:24fiddle compared to the queen you say.
40:26>> He is there as well. We're told that he
40:27is less important in making this
40:28decision, but he absolutely is the one
40:30who is initiating the feasts, the games,
40:32and and is very much a part of it. But
40:34no, Nausicaa both Nausicaa and Athena
40:36are very clear that Arete is the one who
40:38has the power here.
40:39>> Interesting. And so, this is clearly the
40:40last episode before Odysseus returns
40:43home. They're the people who see
40:45make allow him to make that last journey
40:48to his homeland.
40:50And so,
40:52as we've been hinting at,
40:53this is the perfect setting when he's
40:55being treated by the royal family,
40:57if I'm thinking of the Bronze Age world,
40:59maybe in a palace-like building gathered
41:01around the central hearth after a lovely
41:04feast, a lovely food,
41:06and is that the setting when you have
41:07Odysseus,
41:09he reveals his story.
41:10>> Yeah, well, absolutely. And he doesn't
41:12actually mean to reveal his story. Um
41:14but it's actually quite interesting. I
41:15mean, he is the master of disguise,
41:17right? So, he doesn't necessarily kind
41:20of want to give away who he is. And
41:21actually, in terms of the rules of
41:23xenia, of hospitality, you don't
41:25actually have to to reveal your name.
41:28Your host doesn't need to ask your name.
41:30Um but what happens is, I mentioned a
41:32bard, and the bard sings a song and a
41:34tale of Troy, and he talks about a
41:37quarrel between Achilles and Odysseus.
41:40And Odysseus hears this, and he weeps
41:43and he weeps like a woman whose city has
41:46been captured. Right? And so, we're now
41:48thinking back to all of those Trojan
41:50women who we encountered on the shores
41:52of Troy who were being captured by the
41:54Greeks, and he feels their grief.
41:56>> So, so Odysseus is hearing a bard
41:59telling the story that had that was
42:01already being told of him while he had
42:04been away.
42:05>> Yeah. He hears his own story being told,
42:07and it moves him to tears. And at that
42:09point,
42:11the king, Alcinous, asks Odysseus, you
42:13know, why are you weeping and what is
42:15your name?
42:16And that's when Odysseus then says, I am
42:19Odysseus, I come from Ithaca, and he
42:21gives the story of his travels.
42:23>> So, Odysseus has revealed his identity
42:25at this time.
42:26And this is when we get the real meat of
42:28the story. This is when he now
42:32we start to hear all the trials and
42:34tribulations that he's faced since the
42:36Trojan War. This is when we start to
42:37actually get the narrative itself, can
42:40we say?
42:40>> Yeah. And it's interesting cuz this is
42:42something that most people, I think, who
42:43haven't read the Odyssey don't realize.
42:45They think the Odyssey will be the story
42:47of Odysseus's wanderings and we'll start
42:49sort of in Troy and we'll go through.
42:50But, in fact, we have to wait eight
42:52books. It's not until the ninth book out
42:55of 24 books of the Odyssey that we start
42:57getting actually the story of what
42:59happened after Odysseus left Troy.
43:01>> And when we say a book, we mean, I mean,
43:03these are hundreds of lines of text,
43:05aren't they?
43:06>> Yeah. I mean, that's later. So,
43:07basically, what happened is as the poems
43:10were written down, later scholars then
43:12decided, okay, we're going to cut a book
43:13here, a book there. Um, but at the same
43:15time, yes, hundreds of lines of poetry
43:17that we're looking at before we start
43:19getting Odysseus giving his story. Um,
43:21and it's kind of miraculous because
43:23we're actually not just hearing this
43:25from the poet, we're purportedly hearing
43:27this from Odysseus, from his own lips.
43:29And so, it's really kind of exciting as
43:31a as a storytelling moment that Odysseus
43:33basically becomes his own bard.
43:35>> It's a storyteller within a story, you
43:37know, that kind of thing, which is
43:38lovely.
43:39>> Yeah.
43:39>> Um, okay, so, how does it all begin?
43:42>> So, we have Odysseus leaving Troy. Uh,
43:45he does a couple of raids um, on his way
43:47down from Troy.
43:48>> alone at this point, right?
43:49>> He's not at that point. He's got all of
43:50his ships, all of his men. Uh, if you
43:52remember back to the proem of the
43:54Odyssey, it's talking about him trying
43:56to get a return home for his men.
43:58>> Mhm.
43:58>> Uh, so, it's not just him here, it's
44:00also him trying to kind of get all of
44:01his men home. Um, we've also got Hecuba,
44:04I know she's not in
44:04>> say, does do they actually mention
44:06Hecuba in the Odyssey? Does he mention
44:08her?
44:08>> Not in the Odyssey, no. But we've got a
44:09later tradition where Hecuba actually
44:12dives off the boat and turns into a dog.
44:15This is in, perhaps to no one's
44:17surprise, Greek tragedy,
44:18where things can get a little bit spicy.
44:21But, you know, Hecuba isn't mentioned
44:23here, but you know, that's part of his
44:25return. In any case, we've got a couple
44:27of raids. He does some sort of typical
44:29Homeric swashbuckling where he burns
44:32down a city, kills men, enslaves women,
44:34takes some booty, some wine, and then he
44:36carries on on his voyage.
44:37>> I mean, quite frankly, in the kind of
44:39the Bronze Age world, well,
44:41the kernels of truth in Bronze Age
44:42world, that seems quite relatable to
44:44what we have from the text of what
44:45Mycenaeans probably did. So,
44:48that feels more relatable, more
44:50historical.
44:51>> Yeah, at that point we're still in the
44:52real world. Yeah.
44:53>> But then
44:53>> But then [laughter]
44:54>> what happens?
44:54>> We enter into the world of fantasy, in
44:57the world of reality. And we go through
44:58a couple of different stops, basically,
45:00that Odysseus does on his way. We have
45:02the Lotus-Eaters, where Odysseus and his
45:05men eat the flower of the lotus that
45:07induces forgetfulness.
45:09Now, obviously, that is probably the
45:11most dangerous thing you can do on your
45:13way home.
45:13>> Yes, how do we sail again? Or something
45:15like that. How do we get home? Yes.
45:16>> Exactly. So, Odysseus has to be the one
45:17to make sure that he's sort of bringing
45:19his men back into line and getting them
45:21back onto the ships. That's one of the
45:23adventures they have. We've got some
45:24giants. We've got the Laestrygonians,
45:27who kind of severely kind of
45:30worry the crew and and pose a a
45:32difficulty for them because they throw
45:33massive rocks and boulders down at the
45:36at the ships. And then we get some of
45:38the more famous episodes. So, we get,
45:39for instance, the Cyclops.
45:41>> Yes. So, let's suppose cuz so,
45:42Laestrygones,
45:44I didn't really know about Laestrygones
45:46at all. And but they are They are
45:47giants, but they are different to the
45:49Cyclops. These are two different
45:50episodes.
45:50>> Absolutely. They are completely
45:52different. So, the Laestrygonians are
45:54kind of a civilization a dwelling of of
45:56giants in themselves. The Cyclops, they
45:58live on their own islands, and they are
46:01kind of differentiated by having this
46:03one eye. They are sons of Poseidon and
46:06they all kind of live there together and
46:08heard their sheep on this kind of rather
46:09idyllic sounding island.
46:11>> And also as you say Cyclops is the
46:13plural and Cyclops is the singular.
46:16The Cyclops is
46:18so many people say Cyclops is bad if you
46:20want to get nerdy.
46:21>> [laughter]
46:22>> I know.
46:23Yes, Cyclops is plural of Cyclops.
46:25>> three in total?
46:26>> So yes, we've got multiple brothers. I
46:28mean I think it's three in the later
46:29myths. I don't know if Homer actually
46:31specifies whether it's three or not. But
46:33the one that we're concerned with is
46:34called Polyphemus.
46:35>> Let's delve into the the myth of the
46:38Cyclops and Polyphemus then and
46:39Odysseus's running with him. So so so
46:41what happens? How does do does he and
46:43his men how do they end up on the island
46:45of Polyphemus the Cyclops?
46:47>> Well, they're on their way trying to get
46:49back home. They see a beautiful island
46:51that looks very lush and verdant and you
46:54know, they need somewhere to sleep. So
46:56they they run their boats up onto the
46:57shore and they go up and explore.
46:59Odysseus an inveterate explorer and they
47:02find a cave that is full of lovely yummy
47:06cheeses. And so they go in and they help
47:09themselves to the cheese. Now, we were
47:11talking about Xenia earlier. We were
47:12talking about good hospitality. This is
47:15a very bad act of being a guest because
47:18you have not waited for your host to
47:20come home. You've eaten his food. You
47:23haven't kind of asked for permission. So
47:25Odysseus and his men already doing
47:26something quite transgressive. The
47:28Cyclops Polyphemus then comes back to
47:31find this group of men in his cave
47:34having consumed some of his cheeses and
47:37he then ends up doing something which is
47:39also not very good hosting which is that
47:40he eats some of Odysseus's men. So we've
47:43got kind of transgressions of Xenia on
47:45both side. There are real problems here.
47:48Odysseus then has to work out how to get
47:49out of the cave. He comes up with this
47:51very cunning idea of a stake which he
47:53heats up in the fire and drives through
47:55the Cyclops's eye.
47:57>> This is yeah, this is the brutal part,
47:58isn't
47:58>> It's really, really brutal. And there's
48:00a horrible simile basically comparing
48:03what he does when he he puts the stake
48:05into the eye to a drill going in and
48:08sort of, you know, it's just it's a
48:09really, really very, a kind of traumatic
48:11moment.
48:12But the Cyclops is is blinded and then
48:15Odysseus essentially manages to trick
48:17his way out by hiding underneath the
48:20sheep. And as the Cyclops's sheep go out
48:22into pasture, he and his men cling
48:24underneath and they go out through the
48:25door.
48:26>> And isn't there this I don't know if
48:27this is the latest story, but I always
48:28remember it in that the Cyclops he opens
48:31the the door to his cave and he feels
48:34the sheep but the
48:35the tops of the sheep and doesn't feel
48:37the men who are clinging to the
48:38undersides of the sheep as they go out.
48:40>> That's exactly it. So this is the source
48:42of Odysseus's cunning because the
48:43Cyclops is blind and he feels the tops,
48:45but he doesn't feel the men beneath.
48:47>> So
48:49Odysseus escapes the cave with his men
48:51hasn't escaped the island yet though cuz
48:53there's still a bit more to the story,
48:55isn't there?
48:55>> No. It sounds like it's all good, right?
48:57It sounds like he's got out of the
48:58island, he's defeated the monster.
49:00Perhaps he hasn't been the best guest,
49:02but you know, that can all be
49:03>> Lost a few men as well, so it's not not
49:05completely brilliant, yeah.
49:06>> not great leadership.
49:08Um but then he's out on the on the ocean
49:10in his boat and he cannot resist having
49:14one last vaunt, one last boast. Now,
49:16what he did when he was with the Cyclops
49:19was that he tricked him by saying when
49:20the Cyclops asked his name, we've seen
49:23that between guest and host. When
49:24Alcinous asked for Odysseus's name, the
49:26Cyclops also asked for his name. He
49:28says, "My name is no one." And so of
49:31course, when it when the Cyclops gets
49:33blinded, he then shouts out to his
49:35brothers, "No one has blinded me."
49:37Very, very clever trick and then they're
49:39like, "Well, great, thanks for telling
49:40us.
49:40>> [laughter]
49:41>> Home with our life."
49:43Um so very, very clever of Odysseus.
49:45However, he cannot resist having his
49:47name told. And so he turns around in the
49:49ship and he shouts back to the Cyclops
49:52that he should know that the person who
49:54tricked him was Odysseus, son of
49:55Laertes.
49:56>> And do you think that you mentioned much
49:58earlier about the word hero and how
50:01this figure can also bring a lot lot
50:03around a lot of devastation to those
50:05around him?
50:06>> Yeah.
50:07>> That act in particular
50:09his men probably didn't know at the
50:10time. They probably like, "Haha, yeah,
50:12you tell him. You tell him, Odysseus,
50:14what you just done." No idea that he's
50:16just doomed us all, hasn't he?
50:18>> he has. And exactly we talked about
50:20Odysseus and and heroes being
50:21destructive to their communities. I I
50:23mentioned the men that he kills when he
50:25gets back to Ithaca, but he also loses
50:27all of his men. You know, every single
50:29man who went from Ithaca with him to
50:31Troy gets lost apart from Odysseus. So,
50:34this is not really what I think we would
50:35call a heroic homecoming uh that we're
50:38going to see and you're absolutely
50:39right. It's that moment of pride uh what
50:41the Greeks would call hubris.
50:42>> Hubris.
50:43>> Right, which [snorts] is where you've
50:44got this excessive pride that kind of
50:46leads almost to to uh punishment by the
50:48gods. And of course, that's exactly what
50:50happens because then the Cyclops has the
50:52key piece of information that he needs,
50:54which is the name in order to curse
50:56Odysseus.
50:57>> And how does he curse Odysseus?
50:59>> Yeah, well, he goes straight to his
51:00father, Poseidon. Uh it's good if you've
51:02got a a daddy god. Um and he asks
51:04Poseidon uh to curse Odysseus on his
51:06voyage back home. Um and you know,
51:08because he can name him, then Poseidon
51:10immediately knows who he's looking for.
51:12Um and that is then the reason why
51:14Odysseus has all of these awful
51:15wanderings.
51:16>> And lots of storms, I'm guessing, as
51:17well.
51:18>> Plenty of storms, plenty of trouble.
51:20Yeah, [laughter] yeah, Poseidon knows
51:21how to stir up a sea.
51:22>> No, I know there are lots of as we we
51:24use the word uh TNT, lots of trials and
51:26tribulations that follow. Um I like us
51:28to get to to Circe as another kind of
51:30big episode. Um but are there key
51:32episodes that we need to highlight
51:33before we get to Circe between the
51:35Cyclops and her island?
51:37>> I think the main one is Circe. It's the
51:39next one kind of in the voyage in terms
51:41of kind of those big hitters in terms of
51:42who kind of really matters for
51:44Odysseus's voyage home.
51:45>> So, how do they arrive on this island?
51:47Set the scene before we introduce this
51:49figure of Circe who they meet there.
51:51>> It's a very similar situation to the
51:53island of the Cyclops. And I think at
51:55this point Odysseus and his men must be
51:56starting to feel that there's a sort of
51:58haunting similarity [laughter]
52:00to these dangerous islands that they
52:02keep rocking up on. But yes, they come
52:04up to shore and
52:06a party of them decide Well, first they
52:08go hunting and they they shoot a stag
52:10and and that's all well and good. But
52:12then a party of them decide to explore a
52:14little bit further into the island. And
52:17they they go up they wander up into the
52:18island and they come across this
52:20beautiful palace in the middle of
52:22nowhere in the island. And it's got sort
52:24of wolves and lions prowling around the
52:27door already kind of rather strange.
52:30They hear a woman singing inside and
52:32they hear the clicking and the clacking
52:33of a loom.
52:35And as they go in, they're welcomed by
52:37this beautiful goddess, Circe.
52:39She takes them in, she gives them kind
52:42of food and drink. And as they kind of
52:45consume this, they then get turned into
52:47pigs.
52:48>> So, once they eat something, that's the
52:50that's the secret
52:51>> Exactly. That's the secret formula. She
52:53does have a wand that she kind of
52:55strikes them with like a switch almost.
52:57And they kind of go trotting off into
52:59the pigsties. However, one man stayed
53:01behind. He saw all of this and he runs
53:04back to Odysseus and reports.
53:07>> You mentioned a wand there.
53:08>> Yes.
53:09>> The classic association with Circe is
53:11that she's a witch.
53:12>> Yeah.
53:13>> Is that accurate? Is that fair to say?
53:15>> Well, look, she turns men into pigs.
53:17>> Yes, that's quite a big indicator. Yes.
53:21>> And certainly later generations, later
53:23kind of readers of Homer thought that
53:25she was a witch. I think what's really
53:27interesting is that in fact in Homer,
53:29she's never called a witch. The word
53:32that is used for her is is an adjective.
53:34It's polypharmakos. Now, there's poly
53:37again, which we heard from
53:38much exactly. And pharmakos is um, we
53:42get pharmacy from. It's the word for
53:44drug. Um, and a drug, just like in
53:46English, it can be good or it can be
53:47bad. And so, she's someone who knows a
53:50lot about good drugs and bad drugs.
53:53>> Many drugs, Circe.
53:54>> Exactly. Exactly. And I think that
53:56changes things because that's not really
53:58a witch. That's someone who knows how to
54:00take herbs and use them to do what she
54:02wants to do with them. And just as she
54:04can turn the men into pigs, uh, later
54:06when she transforms them back, she uses
54:08a kind of ointment. So, she's a then
54:10using her drugs. And when they turn back
54:12into men, they're actually much younger
54:13and better looking than they were
54:14before. Uh, which, you know, I I've sign
54:16me up. I want to know where to where to
54:18[laughter] buy that that one from.
54:19Absolutely. But, um, Circe, I think, you
54:22know, she could do good things as well.
54:23Um, and so, it it's we've got to
54:24complicate that a bit.
54:25>> And so,
54:27halfway [snorts] through the story with
54:28that one person who isn't turned into an
54:30animal, who goes back to Odysseus to
54:32say, "Hey,
54:33there's something weird happening up
54:35there." Um,
54:37what follows from there? How does
54:38Odysseus decide to try and tackle this
54:40new threat, this new issue?
54:42>> Yeah. I mean, I think there would be two
54:43ways to go with that. There would be
54:45like, you know, let's get the hell out
54:47of here, um, or, you know, go and save
54:49the men. Odysseus is perhaps more on
54:51the, "I'm really curious and want to
54:53know what's happened." kind of spectrum.
54:55Um, so, he heads in and he decides he
54:57wants to kind of find out. Now, you
54:59know, everyone is saying, "Don't go.
55:00This is too dangerous." But, but he he
55:02heads off. On his way, he is visited by
55:05Hermes, uh, the messenger god who we saw
55:08earlier coming to Calypso's island uh,
55:10delivering the message from Zeus. Now,
55:11Hermes here has come to help Odysseus,
55:14and he has essentially come to also warn
55:16him that Circe has this knowledge of
55:18herbs. And he gives him a herb in
55:20return.
55:21Uh, and this is a herb called, in the
55:23Greek, moly. Um, we're not entirely sure
55:26what it was. We think it might be some
55:28kind of early sort of wild garlic type
55:30thing.
55:31Um, so, it's meant to have black roots
55:32and a white flower. Um, and he's told to
55:35consume this, and this will protect him
55:37from Circe's drugs.
55:39>> And so is the case that he then happily,
55:42well, confident that he's got this
55:43protection, goes to Circe's home. Circe
55:46welcomes him in. And then he starts
55:48eating tries to tap him on the shoulder
55:50with the wand. That's the idea I've got.
55:52And they're like, it's not working.
55:53>> It's not working.
55:54>> It's [laughter] not working.
55:55>> Exactly. No, he's very confident because
55:57he knows that he's got this help from
55:58the gods.
55:59Um and then at that point, yes, she's
56:01sort of okay, well, he hasn't turned
56:02into a pig. She then recalls a
56:05prediction that has been made to her
56:06that Odysseus will come. And so this has
56:09been prophesied. Um she kind of
56:11recognize that he draws his sword as
56:13Hermes has told him to, kind of rushes
56:15at her. And she sort of says, "No need
56:17for that, you know. Let's go to bed."
56:20And he says, "Well, not before you've
56:21turned my men back into men from pigs."
56:24So she does that. And then they go to
56:26bed. And he stays on her island for a
56:27year having sex and having lots of nice
56:30food.
56:30>> Right. Okay. All of a sudden the desire
56:32to get back to Penelope as quickly as
56:34possible is not not quite there in the
56:35story anymore.
56:36>> fact, he actually it's really
56:37interesting because we talked about the
56:39Lotus-Eaters, the danger of forgetting.
56:41Well, here he does forget. And here it's
56:43actually his men who remind him at the
56:46end of a year, "Remember about getting
56:48back home, Odysseus?"
56:49>> But his men have been there as well,
56:50have they? They've just been there. So,
56:51okay.
56:53>> But it's them who remind him. It's not
56:54Odysseus.
56:55>> Interesting. So that's a whole year on
56:56Circe's island. So
56:58she's a big part of the narrative, is
56:59it? A couple of books or
57:01>> Well, she's a really big part of the
57:02narrative because she's the one who
57:04gives him the instructions about where
57:06he needs to go next. So actually he goes
57:09on from her. He does his next bit, and
57:11then he comes back to her again.
57:13So it's a really important she's a
57:14really important kind of motivator for
57:16this.
57:16>> And so where does she tell him
57:18if it's not like Calypso, not 7 years,
57:20but she agrees that Odysseus has got to
57:22go
57:23Odysseus' men say, "Come on, we've got
57:24to go now." Um where do they go next?
57:27What's the next big episode?
57:28>> Well, his next thing that he's got to
57:29do, and this is what Circe sets him up
57:31for, is the underworld.
57:32>> This
57:33I think this is the final big episode
57:35we'll cover in this episode.
57:37>> [laughter]
57:38>> Um yes, let's let's explore this going
57:40to the underworld.
57:41>> Well, uh Circe is a really appropriate
57:42one to point him towards the underworld
57:44because she is a goddess who is as we've
57:46seen implicated in kind of herbal magic.
57:49She's a goddess who is implicated in sex
57:51and she's also a kind of goddess of
57:52death. And she points him towards the
57:54land of the dead. And she says, "If you
57:56want to get back home to Ithaca, you
57:58need to go and you need to commune with
58:00the spirits of the dead, above all
58:02Tiresias, who is a blind prophet, who is
58:05the one who knows more than anyone else,
58:07and he will be able to tell you how to
58:08get back home."
58:10>> And how does one do this?
58:12>> Yeah, it's pretty specific and Circe is
58:15the one who knows the instructions. So,
58:16luckily for Odysseus, she knows the way.
58:18So, she tells him kind of where to sail.
58:20She tells him what to do basically to
58:22get to the banks of the river Acheron.
58:25>> River Acheron, okay.
58:26>> Exactly. The place that you've been to
58:28recently as well. I have been to it and,
58:29you know, I have to say very, very
58:31beautiful. Um but, you know, in the
58:33ancient myth, there were nine different
58:35rivers feeding into the underworld or in
58:38the underworld. And the Acheron was one
58:39of the rivers that actually was in kind
58:41of the world of the mortals and then
58:42kind of, you know, dipped its way
58:44through towards into the underworld. So,
58:45it's a sort of portal,
58:47a place where death and life meet. So,
58:50go to the banks of the Acheron, draw up
58:52your ships there. And on the shore, he
58:54needs to do a very specific ritual where
58:56he needs to kind of dig a pit. He needs
58:58to slaughter some animals and he needs
59:00to put them with their heads down into
59:02the pit so that the blood trickles down
59:04into the ground. Now, of course, this is
59:06what spirits of the underworld want
59:09because the spirits of the underworld
59:10are completely lifeless. They have no
59:12form. They have no substance. They don't
59:14even have any voice. They just kind of
59:15squeak away. So, what they want is to be
59:17able to drink blood and get some of that
59:19kind of vital energy back into them. And
59:21so, he's got to get that blood in there.
59:23He's got to summon the spirits of the
59:24underworld. He's he's to ward them all
59:26off until Tiresias comes. And when
59:28Tiresias drinks the blood, then he can
59:30speak to him and Odysseus will know his
59:32way home.
59:32>> So, this is Odysseus doing kind of like
59:34vampiric necromancy.
59:36>> It's necromancy. Yeah, it is. It's
59:37absolutely necromancy. Um and it's a a
59:40really kind of interesting moment where
59:41Odysseus also gets to meet not just the
59:44figures of his own past, but also the
59:46figures of the Trojan War past. So,
59:49we're also looking back to the Iliad.
59:51You know, we talked about those return
59:52stories that are kind of encapsulated uh
59:55in the early books of the Odyssey. Well,
59:56here we have the stories of the Trojans,
59:58uh sorry, the Greeks who died in the
1:00:00Trojan War and what happened to them
1:00:02after Troy.
1:00:03>> So, is Agamemnon one of them that he
1:00:05sees?
1:00:05>> Exactly. We've got kind of the big trio.
1:00:07[clears throat] We've got Agamemnon, uh
1:00:08we've got Ajax who is obviously very
1:00:11annoyed about what happened with the
1:00:12armor of Achilles and he doesn't talk to
1:00:13Odysseus at all. He just
1:00:14>> [laughter]
1:00:15>> sulks and sulks off in the opposite
1:00:16direction.
1:00:17>> [gasps]
1:00:17>> Um and then we've got Achilles. So,
1:00:18we've got the sort of triad.
1:00:20>> The big three. And then Tiresias, so you
1:00:21kind of have that crescendo of big
1:00:23heroes.
1:00:24>> Well, we start with Tiresias.
1:00:25>> Sorry. Okay, you do actually start with
1:00:26Tiresias.
1:00:27>> So, it so um we've got Tiresias and
1:00:29actually there were a couple before
1:00:30Tiresias, which is interesting. Uh one
1:00:32of them is basically one of Odysseus's
1:00:34uh shipmates. He managed to uh get
1:00:36himself a bit drunk when he was on
1:00:37Circe's island, fell off a roof, didn't
1:00:39get buried properly, and wants to ask
1:00:41Odysseus for burial. But then Tiresias
1:00:43comes in and he's really kind of the
1:00:45reason that we're there. Uh and
1:00:46Tiresias, very oddly, doesn't really I
1:00:49think, you know, the reader, the
1:00:51audience listening to Homer, we're
1:00:52expecting kind of a road map, right?
1:00:55This is how you get back to Ithaca from
1:00:56here. And instead what he does is he
1:00:58basically tells him what is happening on
1:01:01Ithaca. He gives him information and he
1:01:04tells him what is going to happen in the
1:01:05future to him. So, typical prophet. He
1:01:08kind of just goes completely off piste
1:01:10and it's all very kind of vague, but
1:01:11it's really important because this is
1:01:13the time where Odysseus finds out what
1:01:15is happening in his halls at home in
1:01:16Ithaca, the suitors who are basically
1:01:18laying siege to his wife, uh his wife
1:01:21kind of holding out, Penelope waiting
1:01:23for him to return. Um and he also finds
1:01:25out that when he gets back to Ithaca,
1:01:26he's actually going to have another
1:01:27voyage again.
1:01:28>> Yes, cuz we mentioned we actually didn't
1:01:30really talk about the suitors at all
1:01:31because we're going to cover that in the
1:01:32next episode. Yeah. But, highlights
1:01:35uh can you mention now kind of what
1:01:37these suitors have been doing? So, what
1:01:39is this information that is revealed to
1:01:41Odysseus about what is happening in his
1:01:44palace, yeah, you know, to his servants,
1:01:46to his wife?
1:01:47What's been going on? What gives him the
1:01:49motivation to try and get home then
1:01:51after that?
1:01:52>> Well, this is the big problem that
1:01:53Odysseus is dealing with, and it's
1:01:54essentially we've been talking about
1:01:56these kinds of different stories that
1:01:57are bubbling away at the same time. And
1:01:59we saw Telemachus go off on his own
1:02:01little journey, but as he was going off
1:02:03on his journey, we had a glimpse into
1:02:05what was happening at Ithaca. And while
1:02:07Odysseus was spending his 10 years in
1:02:08the Trojan War, his 10 years of his
1:02:10voyage home, at the same time, Penelope
1:02:13has been basically sole queen of Ithaca.
1:02:15She's had a son who is too young to
1:02:17rule, and all of the surrounding kings,
1:02:20both from Ithaca and from the
1:02:21surrounding islands, have come and have
1:02:23basically kind of sat in the palace,
1:02:26have consumed all of their food, their
1:02:28drink, uh have been kind of behaving
1:02:30extremely badly, um probably also kind
1:02:33of raping the enslaved women within the
1:02:35household, um and all of them demanding
1:02:37that Penelope is going to make one of
1:02:39them her husband. So, she's really been
1:02:41holding out for a long time. Now, for
1:02:42Odysseus, this is a massive threat to
1:02:44him because it's not just a threat to,
1:02:46you know, his kind of claim to Penelope,
1:02:48it's also a threat to his claim for the
1:02:50kingship of Ithaca. So, he has to get
1:02:52home pronto to make sure that he's going
1:02:54to get back into that kingship.
1:02:56>> And that's is I mean, that's the
1:02:58motivation. That's almost his
1:03:00revelation, um that this moment at the
1:03:03Acheron with Tiresias,
1:03:05which lays, well, sets the foundations
1:03:08for that next Should we say Is it half
1:03:10of the Odyssey still to come?
1:03:11>> it's not to come instance that is
1:03:12happening almost exactly halfway
1:03:14through. So, we're in Book 11 at this
1:03:15point, and there's 24 books. So, we are
1:03:17about halfway through and we are going
1:03:19to kind of switch around through that
1:03:20halfway and Odysseus is catalyzed from
1:03:22someone who is kind of wandering
1:03:24aimlessly to someone who has been told
1:03:26by a prophet, this is what is happening
1:03:28and this is where you need to go.
1:03:29>> Okay, so we've got everything from
1:03:31um
1:03:32serpents to sirens to whirlpools
1:03:36to the great homecoming itself still
1:03:38still to happen. This is This is the
1:03:40midway interval in the story of the
1:03:42Odyssey and it's going to be the
1:03:44interval in our chat today. Uh Emily,
1:03:46this has been so much fun so far and it
1:03:48just goes to me to say, thank you so
1:03:49much for coming on the show. I'll see
1:03:51you shortly for part two.
1:03:52>> It's been great. Let's continue the
1:03:53Odyssey.
1:03:57>> [music]

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