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Why Japan is Winning the War on Distraction — Transcript

by Rich Roll · 34,349 words · 4,632 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00I started doing these huge walks where
0:03I'd walk for 30, 40 days, 20, 30, 40k a
0:06day with this big pack on. For me, what
0:09I get out of these walks, I want to talk
0:10to as many people. I want to bear
0:12witness to as much life being lived as
0:14possible. It's bearing witness to
0:15possibilities of how to live and how to
0:17live
0:18well. Walking is more than exercise.
0:22It's actually inner cgraphy, a map for
0:25the soul. Author, essaist, and
0:28photographer Craig Ma shares tales from
0:31his trails, including those lifted from
0:33a 300-mile journey across a rural
0:35peninsula of Japan, and a traverse he
0:38pursued to make meaning of his past and
0:40the life he currently enjoys. I'm just
0:43collecting little archetypes of
0:45possibility. This is what life can be
0:47like. This is what life can be like. The
0:49arc of Craig's life is fascinating, as
0:51are the unique ways he has navigated it.
0:53All of which we today explore in what is
0:56one of the more soulenriching
0:57conversations I've had on this show in
0:59quite some time and reminds me why I got
1:02into podcasting in the first place. No
1:05social media, no news. Basically,
1:07nothing that teleports you out of the
1:09moment. Getting rid of all that ratchets
1:11up your attention, cranks up the focus.
1:13And I said the one thing that everyone
1:15can do that most everyone is doing now
1:16the wrong way
1:20is Great to have you here, man. Um, I'm
1:23excited to get into this with you.
1:24You've lived a really dynamic,
1:26interesting life off the beaten path and
1:29are here back in the United States
1:32reporting back, you know, with with
1:34wisdom for us westerners who have led
1:36our lives astray and allowed our
1:38attention to, you know, be robbed of us.
1:42So, right, I thought a good way to kind
1:44of launch into it is with something that
1:48you say which is lightness above
1:51weightiness. Elevate everyone you
1:54encounter. And this is a sort of theme
1:56for your work and your creativity, but
1:58it's it's really a mantra for life.
2:00Yeah. So, how did you come up with that?
2:02What does that mean? Yeah. I mean, that
2:05grew directly out of the walking uh out
2:08of the big walks, you know. So I started
2:11doing these
2:13um big walks I started doing about 15
2:16years ago, but I I would say the first
2:18real real real big one that I did where
2:20it was solo. It was kind of under the
2:22rule set that I I now use for all my big
2:25walks was about 6 years ago. And um I
2:29was I was reading a lot of the
2:31literature about Japan in the from the
2:3380s and the '9s. And there was this kind
2:35of heaviness to it all, the way people
2:37would write about Japan. And there was
2:39also this sense of real uh disparity of
2:43of kind of perspective of writing down
2:45on Japan. I mean, I don't want to say it
2:47was explicitly sort of racist, but you
2:49know, there was a kind of western way of
2:51like going to Japan, writing about it,
2:53being like, "Oh, now I understand this
2:55place. Let me explain to you these
2:56people that, you know, sort of
2:58implicitly were sort of below the writer
3:00in a weird way." And that always made me
3:01uncomfortable. M and I started doing
3:03these big huge walks where I'd walk for
3:0630 40 days, 20, 30, 40k a day with this
3:09big pack on. And I started talking to
3:12everybody on the road, just saying
3:13hello, saying hello, saying hello. And
3:15I've lived in Japan for 25 years, so the
3:17language is no problem. I can speak to
3:19everybody, even in the countryside where
3:21the accents get pretty gnarly. I can
3:23kind of hang with them. And um I just
3:26realized uh what a gift it was to be
3:28able to meet all these people just
3:29exactly where they were, you know, and
3:32to it's so easy to focus on the
3:35negatives or to focus on um I don't know
3:38the heaviness of situations. And so just
3:41sort of again implicitly in in through
3:43the walking itself there was a lightness
3:46to these interactions to meeting these
3:47people to being out on the road. Um, and
3:50then also when I started writing these
3:52conversations down and started kind of
3:53giving these people a voice on a bigger
3:55stage than they had, um, I realized
3:59naturally I just wanted to elevate these
4:01people. I was just so in love with
4:02everybody. I think that was the thing
4:04that was surprising was this incredible
4:06amount of love I had for everyone I was
4:07meeting on the road. Um, and so that's
4:10sort of where that phrase comes from,
4:11right? in the writing or in the
4:13chronicling of that. Uh making sure that
4:15you're translating the the the
4:18sensibility and your emotional
4:20experience of these encounters in a way
4:22that is understandable and digestible
4:24even if you're contending with weighty
4:28subject matters and themes. Exactly.
4:30Yeah. Cuz I mean a lot of the Japanese
4:31countryside is depopulating, right? And
4:34so Japan's kind of on the forefront of
4:35what's happening to most first world
4:37countries, which is just population is
4:39going down. Um, Japan is now, I think,
4:42at like 1.2 kids per uh per woman now. I
4:46guess, you know, South Korea is at the
4:48lowest. I think it's 0.7. You need 2.1
4:51to maintain population. So, this these
4:54are pretty dire numbers. And in Japan,
4:56you go to Tokyo, Tokyo is growing. Tokyo
4:58is full of kids and life and you don't
5:00feel that at all, but you get into the
5:01countryside and you feel that acutely
5:03everywhere. And so, it can be easy to, I
5:06think, like dwell on that, to to focus
5:07on, oh my god, all these towns are
5:09disappearing. what does that mean? And
5:11I've tried to instead go look at the
5:15social infrastructure that's here for
5:17these people that remain and how they're
5:20kind of being supported by this greater
5:22hole. And uh what does that mean? Yes,
5:24it's disappearing, but um there's a
5:27certain amount of grace. I kind of I use
5:29that word a lot in when I'm writing
5:30about these countryside towns. You know,
5:32there's a certain level of grace that's
5:33happening here that's present that feels
5:36really humane and important. And so that
5:38tends to be the the thing I focus on. I
5:41want to tease that apart. Um but before
5:43we do that, I think it would be worthy
5:46for you to just articulate your thesis
5:49of Japan. I'm sure people say to you all
5:51the time like what's it like to live
5:53there? Like how is it different than the
5:55way we live? And you know, despite our
5:57our our deeply interconnected world,
6:00Japan still is a world apart. and it and
6:02it has its own rules and its own culture
6:04and and it's fascinating but it can also
6:07be impenetrable for somebody like myself
6:10who's never visited there and just hear
6:12stories about it. Yeah. So, how do you
6:14like breathe life into that? Yeah. I
6:16mean, I feel deeply uncomfortable. Yeah.
6:19I'm not saying you have to be an
6:21ambassador for, you know, like your
6:23words are the, you know, definitive
6:25definition of of of this, but like from
6:27through your lens like putting, you
6:30know, putting, you know, sort of belying
6:33like what our preconceptions might be or
6:35our assumptions. Yeah. So, okay, if I
6:38was to sum up like what I the goodness I
6:41feel from Japan, it's that there's this
6:44kind of ambient sense of enough. Like
6:46people have an enough line. like there's
6:49and I don't mean that in sort of like oh
6:51there's a lack of striving or something
6:52like that but just the fact that the
6:55middle class is so pervasive that
6:57there's a certain kind of um I'd say you
7:00know high earner place that that that
7:03gap between the lowest and the highest
7:05is very small compared to America for
7:07example and America to me feels like
7:09it's a country that doesn't have enough
7:11of anything like that that ceiling is
7:13infinite um and the the enough thing in
7:16Japan manifests in in a number of ways I
7:18think one of the most easiest to
7:20understand is um this idea of a living
7:23national treasure. So I was actually
7:26invited to photograph Jirro, the sushi
7:29dreams of judo when I was 26. Wow. I had
7:32never I'd never eaten a real sushi meal
7:35in my life. I I'd been living in Japan.
7:37I was I'd been there for about six five
7:38six years at that point. And I got this
7:41call, hey uh this guy Jito is going to
7:43be given living national treasure
7:45status. um we want to do a little
7:47magazine piece on him. Can you go and
7:48photograph him? He's like he'll be ready
7:50for you at noon on Tuesday or whatever.
7:52I was like, okay, who is this guy? Kind
7:53of like find him on, you know, no Google
7:55Maps back then. So, you know, look, try
7:57to look him up. I don't Have you ever
8:00been to You haven't been to Geito,
8:01right? No, you've never been. I've seen
8:02the documentary, though. And so, it's in
8:04a subway station. It's like it's very
8:07bizarre. So, it's like you have to go
8:09underground. There's no windows. You're
8:11in a subway station and you're like, it
8:13just looks like a random sushi shop. So,
8:16I go in. I again, no research. I don't
8:18know who this guy is. And uh there's
8:21sort of a handler and then there's Jito
8:22behind the counter and um he goes he
8:26goes, "Mulosan, have you have you had
8:29lunch?" And I go, "No, not really." He's
8:31like, "Let me make you lunch." And so I
8:34got this one. My first experience with
8:36sushi is with the world's greatest
8:38master of it. Yeah, I mean I had How is
8:40it possible that you had lived there so
8:41long and not had sushi? I I had had
8:43that's why I say like I had had like
8:45kiteen sushi. So like the cheap like it
8:48goes around on the conveyor belt and you
8:49kind of all I again like I grew up
8:51without an adventurous palette like I
8:53really did not eat I grew up on
8:55spaghettiios basically chef bui fried
8:57bologn and yet there was this thing
8:59inside of you that demanded to move to
9:02Japan when you were 19. We're going to
9:03get to that but let's leave that aside
9:05for the moment. But so I eat, you know,
9:07like egg roll thingies on top of, you
9:10know, rice and stuff like that. But I
9:11had never had actual sushi sushi. Again,
9:14I didn't have the money to have actual
9:15sushi sushi, you know. And so I sit down
9:17and judo gives me this one-on-one thing
9:20when they show me how to eat it and, you
9:22know, it's like you have a little plate
9:23in front of you and then he just makes
9:24the the nigiri, you know, I'm watching.
9:26I'm like, "Wow, this is so beautiful."
9:28And he puts it on the plate and then
9:29he's like, you know, you put it in fish
9:32side down. So this is and you use your
9:34hands to eat it. So all of this I was
9:36like what's where am I? And I was like
9:39this is really good. I was you know like
9:41each one I'm like I'm just sort of like
9:43pop popping in my mouth like it's
9:44Wendy's or something, you know, and I'm
9:46not really sitting there with it cuz I'm
9:48I'm a little nervous. You're not giving
9:49it the due respect that a culinary
9:52master deserves or he's probably used to
9:54when people, you know, sort of have this
9:57transcended experience. Just this b just
9:59this bumbling idiot, you know,
10:0026-year-old. I got like this ponytail,
10:02you know, it's like I was probably hung
10:03over. You know, it was just a ridiculous
10:06situation. And so, you know, I ate it,
10:09photographed him, photographed his son,
10:10he was there, photographed another one
10:11of his uh students. Um, and at the end,
10:14I was like standing with his son. I
10:15said, "That was really good." I was like
10:16I was like, "I'd like to eat that again.
10:18How much uh how much would that cost if
10:19I came back for lunch?" And he's like,
10:21he's like, "Uh, what you ate today was
10:23uh like $300." And I was like, "What?" I
10:27mean, Rich, I've never I at that point
10:30in my life, I had never paid more than
10:31like $15 for like an entire meal. But
10:34you knew going in that you were there
10:35for a purpose, which was to photograph
10:38this living legend. So, you must have
10:40had some inkling that this might not be,
10:42you know, $15 worth of food. I
10:44appreciate I appreciate how much uh uh
10:47optimism you have about my view. I mean,
10:50it was it was pretty ridiculous. So the
10:53point being is that people like Jirro,
10:55you know, who's got a shop in a subway
10:57station underground with no windows and
11:01yet is can be recognized as a living
11:03national treasure. And you see this
11:05across the board. You see this in terms
11:06of potters, in terms of sword makers,
11:09you know, everything in Japan can kind
11:11of be elevated in terms of
11:12craftsmanship. And those people do not
11:14make a lot of money and they live very
11:16humble lives. And I think that having a
11:19social structure that is able to elevate
11:21crafts people, people who commit
11:22themselves to mastery of something,
11:24that's such an my god, just having that
11:26ambiently in society in a way that it's
11:29not about the money and it's really not
11:32about status cuz these people are all
11:33for the most part almost totally
11:35unknown. Um they're just kind of
11:36recognized by this kind of cultural body
11:38is is I I find that really inspiring and
11:41I think a lot of my work has uh derived
11:43inspiration from that. Mhm. Yeah. It
11:45feels like we were chatting before, but
11:48your books, your work, even the way you
11:50present your work online is all, you
11:53know, very uh, you know, aesthetically
11:55attuned, you know, like there is a
11:57sensibility to it that has has been, you
11:59know, highly considered and that feels
12:02very Japanese aesthetically and just um
12:06with respect to intentionality and and
12:09respect for craft, right? like skill and
12:12craftsmanship are revered and the
12:15aspiration is to you know infuse
12:18whatever it is you do with some
12:20semblance of that. But how does that
12:22reconcile with what we know about
12:26Japanese corporate culture and like you
12:28know work super hard and you know stay
12:30out all night drinking and you miss your
12:32train and you sleep in one of those like
12:34little you know like little what do you
12:36call them those hotels that are just
12:38like little capsules. was a hotel. Yeah.
12:40Yeah. If you're lucky. Hotel. Yeah. That
12:42feels like a different world from what
12:44you're explaining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
12:45mean, that's the paradox, right? Is that
12:47there is definitely
12:49this majority cohort of life in Japan,
12:52which is extremely depressing to a
12:55certain degree. You know, it's this I'm
12:57going to do a 90-minute commute on a
12:58pack train, squish like a sardine. Um,
13:01it used to be worse. You know, I think
13:03the 80s were sort of was sort of the
13:04peak of that during the the peak of the
13:06bubble. Um, and things have kind of
13:08postbubble pop in the early 90s. You
13:11know, in the last 25 years of Japan, um,
13:14has been sort of like frozen in a weird
13:16way. You know, it's it's been a very
13:18strange uh, experience. I've lived there
13:20since 2000. And when I arrived from
13:22basically 2000 to like 2015, almost
13:24nothing changed. Like, you turned on the
13:26TV, it was the same people on TV. You
13:28turn on the radio, it's the same people
13:29on the radio. Um, the prices of things,
13:32you know, this has been a big deal with
13:33inflation in the last 3, four years. You
13:35know, the yen has gotten really weak,
13:37dollars gotten really strong. Uh, CO
13:39screwed up shipping. So, a lot of
13:40products just cost more and shops for
13:42the first time in like 40 years rose
13:45prices. This for shops, this was like
13:47such a big deal because in Japan, this
13:50idea of the Jordan, the the the
13:54uh regular customer is and honoring the
13:57regular customer and respecting the
13:58regular customer. And so if the regular
14:01customer expects a morning set that
14:04costs $3 where you get an egg and toast
14:06and coffee and you can have your
14:08cigarette, that's what you as a owner of
14:12the shop wanted to deliver for decades
14:14and decades and decades. So when you
14:15have to raise it to
14:18$3.20 and there's a huge amount of
14:20apologies and you should see the signage
14:22that was up for like raising, you know,
14:2450 cents, you know, for this like hotel
14:26or something. I mean, it was it was
14:28really heartening in some ways that that
14:31that people cared that much, but Japan
14:34was frozen for most of the time I was
14:36there. And now in the last 5 to 10
14:37years, tourism has kind of like
14:39rediscovered Japan in a big way. And I
14:41think social media has played a part in
14:42that. And um you know, and through that,
14:45Japan has kind of had this new influx of
14:47energy. Um and it's been responding to
14:49that in different ways. But the core of
14:51the country is a bunch of office men,
14:53office women commuting on, you know,
14:56trains in pretty dire circumstances. It
14:59has tremendous cultural re relevance
15:02though in terms of like fashion and
15:04trends and things like that. Um but
15:07being older than you, the period that
15:09preceded this this you know extended
15:12phase of relative stagnation was a
15:15period in which during my childhood
15:18Japan was dominating everything. I mean
15:20all electronics, all innovation,
15:22technology, it was all coming from Japan
15:25and you know I grew up with the mindset
15:27that Japan was going to take over the
15:29world. You know the idea that now it's
15:31China, you know it would have been
15:32unimaginable. Um, but due to economic
15:36forces or tariffs or whatever was
15:38happening, you know, I'm not an econom e
15:40economics expert, but something happened
15:42that, you know, created a shift and left
15:45Japan kind of in the lurch. Yeah. Yeah.
15:48I mean, Japan's fourth biggest economy
15:50now. 10 years ago, it was number two.
15:52Um, so that's that's been interesting
15:54and and I think complicated for Japanese
15:56people to to reconcile with as well. But
15:58a big part of that was just simp simply
16:00stagnation. Like there was kind of a
16:02momentum that grew in the 70s and 80s. I
16:04mean the economic miracle of Japan if
16:06you look at the ' 60s7s and '8s I mean
16:07it truly is unbelievable. Like Japan
16:11postwar you go to you go to Tokyo in
16:13like 194647 I mean it was gone. The city
16:18there was no city. It was eviscerated.
16:20It was completely annihilated. And then
16:23so to rebuild from that um you know and
16:26and a big part of like looking walking
16:27through the countryside for me is trying
16:29to feel what is happening to the country
16:31today. How is it changing today? But to
16:34look at where Japan was post war to
16:36where they got within 30 years. I mean
16:38it really truly is one of the most
16:39incredible economic turnarounds in the
16:41history of humanity. And what is
16:43particular about the Japanese ethos that
16:46allowed them to go from that devastated
16:49post-war state into this phoenix-like,
16:52you know, kind of resurgence so
16:54relatively rapidly? I mean, again, I'm
16:57not feel Well, you've lived there, you
16:59know, your entire adult life pretty
17:01much. So, I know I but I wasn't I wish I
17:03had been there. I would have loved if I
17:04could like take a little time machine. I
17:06wouldn't go to the Edeto era. I'd go to
17:08like 1960 and just see what 1950 1960.
17:11Um, I mean, I think it's the
17:12collectivism thing. I think it's the
17:14fact that they're able to kind of like
17:16you can have this thesis about what we
17:18should be doing right now and then
17:19everyone's just like, "Yep, let's do
17:20that for good and bad, right?" I mean,
17:22that was sort of a negative thing during
17:23World War II. Everyone kind of got
17:25moving in the wrong direction. But if
17:26you can move that collectivist kind of
17:28mindset in the right direction, you can
17:30do incredible things economically. But
17:32with respect to this idea of of you know
17:34walking through the countryside in these
17:36rural areas the you know the the off
17:39thebeaten path treks that you've been on
17:41and and
17:43and attuning yourself to the decline and
17:46the impermanence and all of these
17:48things. I mean it hearkens back to your
17:50youth and in certain ways is very
17:54similar to the environment in which you
17:56grew up as a kid which then kind of
17:59catalyzes you know all this internal
18:02reflection about identity and um which
18:05is really the terrain of your books um
18:07or certainly the latest book um but
18:11let's go back to that time I mean you
18:14paint the picture of growing up in
18:16Connecticut in this very strange strange
18:18household and you know leading up to
18:20this even stranger decision that you're
18:23going to move to Japan at age 19. Yeah.
18:26I mean I grew up in basically a
18:30post-industrial American town. So the
18:32town was um typified by there was an
18:36airplane engine factory that employed
18:38most of the town. If you look at the
18:39last 120 years of the town or whatever,
18:42that was the major employer. And then
18:43there was the gun factory cult across
18:45the river and Coca-Cola bottling
18:47factory. I mean, so it was very much,
18:50you know, a salt of the earthy sort of
18:51place. My grandparents on both sides of
18:53the family both worked at the airplane
18:55factory. That's where they met, right?
18:56And as you say in the book, basically
18:58are manufacturing, you know, the the
19:01machinery that was then utilized to drop
19:03the bombs on places that you have walked
19:06through. Exactly.
19:07So to feel that because when you when
19:10you walk the countryside, you feel where
19:12was hit and where wasn't hit because
19:14there's sort of an aborted history that
19:15you sense in some of these towns that
19:17were firebombed. Um you know and so much
19:20of Japan was firebombed you know it was
19:22all civilian populations for the most
19:24part. Um you know with military sort of
19:26components but you feel this kind of
19:28aboard history where this city you know
19:30you walk through Nagagoya Nagagoya
19:32doesn't feel like a city with a history.
19:34It's so surreal. It's so bizarre. you
19:37it's this almost like ambient thing.
19:38It's like almost like the smell of it.
19:39It's like it stopped in or it was born
19:43in 1945. Um and then you have these
19:45other places where the history goes for
19:48a thousand 2,000 years. And yeah, I mean
19:50walking and thinking about it and then
19:52realizing that some of the airplane
19:53engines that were built for the bombers
19:56came out of my hometown that my
19:57grandfather probably had his hands on is
20:00a very surreal thing. And then being
20:02able to meet some of these older folks
20:04uh in these areas whose parents fought
20:06in the war and being able to meet with
20:08them in this really kind of beautiful
20:11peaceful way and think about how quickly
20:14we can kind of transcend these, you
20:16know, these these terrible violent
20:18impulses. I find a lot of inspiration in
20:20that. Um, but I also find it being very
20:24bizarre that there's that connection,
20:26you know, through my grandparents
20:27working in an airplane engine factory,
20:29the war, these roads that I walk today.
20:32There's a lot there. You were adopted.
20:35Yep. Your uh your adopted father uh
20:38seems like he was a real piece of work.
20:42Yeah. I mean, yeah. I just the anti the
20:46ant, you know, the anti-attern, you
20:48know, mentor. Yeah. I mean, those
20:50stories are incredible. Yeah. He, you
20:53know, it's like my parents adopted me
20:55and then got divorced basically two
20:57years later. Um, which I find really
20:59fascinating. I mean, I find fascinating.
21:01Yeah. If you're going to adopt somebody,
21:03you think you you know, it's like it's
21:06like you think there'd be a little But
21:07that says everything you need to know
21:08almost a little bit. I mean, in a in a
21:10in a good way. I mean, so my my earliest
21:12memories are getting bit by a dog. Um,
21:15so we had this little dog named Jacques
21:17for some reason. And I remember it was
21:18under the bed. I got bit by the dog. I
21:20remember very
21:22continental Jacques. But there's no I
21:24don't know why it was called Jacques.
21:25Like that's truly one of the most
21:27bizarre naming elements of my family's
21:29history. Um, maybe I'm inventing that.
21:31And then all the other memories from
21:32that house are just my father in in
21:37Fruit of the Loom underwear at the
21:39dinner table eating steak and screaming.
21:43You know, it's just like, you know, and
21:45and the thing he said to my mom that is
21:47still like the most incredible like sad
21:50thing anyone's ever said to anyone in
21:51the history of the world is um he goes,
21:53"In this house, woman, I am Jesus
21:56Christ." And you're like, "Where does
21:58that come from? Where does that come
22:00from?" But it comes from his father was
22:02an alcoholic who abused him. stepfather,
22:05you know, his mom remarried another
22:06alcoholic who was also abusive to him,
22:08you know, and he, you know, this my
22:11adopted father, he was so sick his whole
22:14life. Uh, you know, he had two hearing
22:16aids, diabetes, he had this flatulence
22:18issue. I mean, he just like all a lot of
22:21all of my memories with my dad are going
22:23to the movies and and wanting to like
22:26curl up in a ball and die because he
22:27would be farting in the movie theater
22:29and like people around us would start
22:30gagging, would have to get up and leave,
22:33you know, and it was just this man of
22:35just a constellation of deficits, you
22:38know. Yeah. Yeah. That's the phrase you
22:40use in the book. Uh, I mean the biopic
22:42writes itself, you know, but there's
22:45this other other uh uh story that you
22:48tell around, you know, being in a movie
22:49theater. Uh, you know, beyond the
22:51farting, it's sort of like, well, just
22:53dump your on the on the ground.
22:54Like it's the, you know, the the the
22:56ground of the theater is the garbage
22:58pale and like they'll pick it up. But
23:00that is a very, you know, interesting
23:03choice, you know, in terms of stories to
23:05tell because of Japan's, you know, very
23:08different relationship to garbage, you
23:10know, and you talk about like the
23:11Starbucks cup. Like, can you just
23:13elucidate that a little bit because I
23:15think that is a window into the Japanese
23:17sensibility. Yeah. Well, garbage in
23:20Japan is your responsibility. Like if
23:23you are carrying a Snickers bar, you
23:25know, it's like it's so funny the
23:26psychology of garbage. like you have a
23:28Snickers bar in your p your pocket.
23:29You're totally cool with having a
23:30Snickers bar in your pocket and then
23:32you're like walking, you go to a park,
23:33you eat the Snickers bar. Suddenly that
23:35rapper is like toxic waste, you know?
23:38It's like it's like you you have to get
23:39rid of this. Where's the garbage can? Da
23:41da da. And in Japan you you just don't
23:43have that. So it's like if you had a
23:45Snickers bar and you ate it and you have
23:46a wrapper, you take the wrapper home and
23:48you throw it away in your own garbage.
23:50That that garbage is not the
23:51responsibility of the city, you know,
23:53because you happen to eat it in in the
23:55in the park or whatever. So, I remember
23:57one time early in Japan, I had some
24:00coffee cup or something that I wanted to
24:01throw away and I randomly went into I
24:04was walking around Shinjuku. I remember
24:05very clearly and I went into a random
24:08shop and I said, "Can I throw this
24:11away?" Cuz in America, whatever,
24:12everyone's got a garbage can. No one
24:14cares. Why would you think that? That
24:15was an odd question. Yeah. Oh my god.
24:17That guy looked at me like, you know, I
24:19had just asked to, you know, stand on
24:22the counter and, you know, pee all over
24:23the shoppers. I mean, it was just like
24:24it you couldn't have asked a more
24:26offensive thing to this guy. Um, and I
24:29remember that that hit me in this weird
24:31way of like, "Oh, wow. I'm in a I'm in a
24:32I'm in a different place. This isn't
24:34this isn't a country where anyone thinks
24:36the floor of the movie theater is the
24:37garbage, you know? It's like no father
24:40in Japan has ever said that to their
24:42kid." But this idea of of handle your
24:45own Yeah. And don't make it anyone
24:47else's problem.
24:49Yeah. in good and bad ways because Japan
24:52I think would benefit from uh a culture
24:54of therapy. So there is no therapy in
24:57Japan. Um I've been doing regular
24:59therapy with a a guy in New York for the
25:02last 8 years weekly. Um and I've missed
25:05like even during these big walks I make
25:07it a point to like have my weekly
25:09session with with Dan. I'm like all
25:10right where's Dan? All right we got to
25:12Dan we're getting you in there you know
25:13no matter what even if I've done a 40k a
25:15day. Um and Japan doesn't have that. And
25:18when I and so in Japan, I actually try
25:20to talk about my history with therapy
25:22quite openly. I've I've in the last few
25:24years, I've had the opportunity to do a
25:25lot of media. I have a regular uh
25:27monthly radio show in Japan now. And um
25:30and so I bring that up quite a bit
25:31because to destigmatize Mhm. therapy
25:35like some of your own it for sure,
25:37like your garbage. That makes sense.
25:39That makes a lot of sense. But there's a
25:40lot of psychological stuff too that I
25:42think Japanese people um try think they
25:45need to own more than they probably need
25:47to. Is it a is it a shame thing? Like
25:50what does that stem from? I mean, I just
25:52think America's done a really good job
25:54at dstigmatizing it, right? It's like I
25:56literally don't know anyone in New York
25:57that doesn't have a therapist, you know?
25:59It's like for better, for worse, right?
26:01It's like, you know, my I'm going to my
26:02analyst today or whatever. Um, in Japan,
26:06I just think that that and I I don't
26:08think it's just Japan. I think Asia in
26:10general kind of has this like talking
26:13about your emotions or, you know, you
26:15hear this a lot from Asian-American
26:16immigrant, you know, like uh kids, the
26:18sons and daughters of immigrants where
26:20it's just so hard to talk to their
26:21parents about emotional things. Um, and
26:23so I just think there's this kind of
26:24emotional repressiveness that is uh is
26:28pretty pervasive there. And also there
26:31aren't that many therapists and then
26:32people who do see therapists are like in
26:35a really really bad place. So I think
26:38the idea that you can see a therapist as
26:40kind of a a a paleotative before things
26:44get bad, that's just not a a philosophy
26:46that that exists. I understand that. I
26:49mean, was it all that different here in
26:5219, you know, 42 or whatever, you know,
26:55so it's changed here as well. Exactly.
26:56Yeah. Um, so you're this kid in high
26:59school in Connecticut. You've uh you've
27:02got your your your buddy Brian. You guys
27:05are doing whatever you're doing.
27:07bad dumb things. Yeah. And then uh you
27:09graduate high school, you make this
27:11decision you're going to move to Japan,
27:13and then suddenly, you know, a tragedy
27:15strikes. Yeah. Yeah. So, Brian and I met
27:18in first grade, side by side, you know,
27:21it's like couldn't be more totally on
27:24the same level. We kind of look like
27:27each other. He's like 3 months, four
27:28months older than me. Um so, he's kind
27:30of like an older brother and we just,
27:31you know, it's like there's this
27:32chemical thing that happens with kids.
27:33It's like you just fuse, you know, and
27:35like I'm adopted and I'd say the thing
27:38that has defined my childhood the most
27:40is the adoption for sure. Um that just
27:42there's a lot there. We can talk more
27:44about adoption, the the psychology of
27:46adoption, but like um for me, Brian was
27:49a brother, you know, because I didn't
27:50have blood brothers and so I didn't have
27:53blood parents. So to me, it was like you
27:55just choose who you want to be as part
27:58of your family. And we lived uh as close
28:01as you could live, you I mean, as as
28:03siblings, uh, who weren't siblings and
28:05all of my elementary school experiences
28:07are kind of infused with this kid. Um,
28:10and then as can happen, you know,
28:12testing in America kind of starts to
28:14separate kids out. I tested a little
28:16better. He was not so good at testing
28:18and we kind of got separated more and
28:19more and more. And if you started going
28:21down a not great path in my town, it led
28:24to really not great things. You know,
28:26it's like I remember, you know, going
28:28around like I'd visit a friend's place,
28:31uh, you know, and they had just gotten
28:33for Christmas like a sack of weed that
28:34was a weed Christmas present, you know,
28:37but you go to their house and they don't
28:38have any furniture, you know, that sort
28:39of thing. God bless them, you know, and
28:42you're just like, "Oh my god." Uh, and
28:44when I think back too now, there was a
28:45lot of suicide attempts. I mean, both of
28:47Brian's sisters were pregnant by 14, 15,
28:5116. Um there's just this kind of ambient
28:54sense of complex violence. Um not to the
28:59fault of anyone in the town, but you
29:00kind of look at it and even if you just
29:02systemically systemically go back now,
29:05how many of those kids that you went to
29:06high school with got out and are doing
29:09something different, right? Yeah. Yeah.
29:11I mean 01%, you know, it's like it's
29:14very small. So anyway, Brian and I ended
29:18up getting separated and like I was
29:20testing in a way that kind of put me in
29:21this almost like a little bit of a
29:23protective bubble to a certain degree.
29:25And it's funny on the alcohol thing
29:27throughout high school, I was straight
29:29edge. Uh, and I saw because I I had
29:31intuitive very early in my life, part of
29:34it being adopted, part of it seeing
29:36um just how the town didn't have the
29:39infrastructure to to kind of help you
29:41out. So I I I from I'd say 10 or 11 was
29:44like, "Okay, I have to own all of this.
29:46I have to own my destiny here." And I
29:49saw drugs and alcohol as an obvious
29:53impedment. And I saw all the kids around
29:54me doing drugs and alcohol. And ever
29:57since I, you know, I remember 13, 14 or
29:59something like just deciding I'm never
30:00going to touch that stuff in this town.
30:02When I left the town, it was very
30:03different, but in this town cuz that
30:06will keep me and I need to get out of
30:07here. And I mean that intuition was sort
30:10of proven right in the sense that I
30:11graduated. You know, Brian and I, we
30:12graduate and a week, two weeks after we
30:14graduate, he's murdered at this house
30:16party.
30:18That was not uncommon that fights would
30:21happen and, you know, you had sort of
30:22gang stuff going on. It was it was kind
30:25of a mess. And um just as Brian is being
30:30murdered, you know, on dying on the on
30:32the front lawn of this house, you know,
30:34under the sky at Fourth of July, I'm on
30:37my way to Japan in this kind of both are
30:42are sort of violent responses to a
30:44place, you know, to to to move to Japan
30:47and to stay there. It speaks to
30:50something that's a little bit broken in
30:51you to do that.
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34:16So to be this young person, to incarnate
34:19into a set of circumstances and into a
34:22family that isn't even, you know,
34:24naturally your own and to be bewildered
34:27by that and and to look around and say
34:30and have the the the self-awareness and
34:32the maturity even at a young age to
34:34realize like, hey, man, I I I can't do
34:37the the things the way these people are
34:39doing it or I'm going to end up that
34:41way. and the situation is dire enough
34:45that I have to pull the rip cord and
34:47eject in the most dramatic way possible.
34:51It's like it's it's a it's a act of self
34:53love on some level. I mean it's radical
34:56and and whether you had conscious
34:58awareness of that or not you know I
35:00don't know maybe you do but um you had
35:03to save
35:04yourself in the moment I had no
35:06awareness of that certainly it was again
35:09just moving on intuition and also there
35:11was a socioeconomic choice like uh going
35:14to school in Japan was cheap. It was
35:16really cheap. Why Japan? Why? Like now
35:19looking back on it so many years later,
35:21like what do you make of this decision?
35:23Like it feels like it was somewhat
35:25spontaneous. I mean, were you obsessed
35:27with Japan as a little kid? No, I wasn't
35:29obsessed, but I So I think here, okay,
35:31if we were to break it down, I'm like
35:3313,
35:3414. I'm like 9, 10, 11, 12, and I loved
35:38video games, right? And the Nintendo
35:40Entertainment System came out, I think,
35:42when I was like eight or something or
35:43nine. And I just remember the most
35:46joyful moments of my childhood were
35:49connected with this dumb thing. Playing
35:51Zelda, playing Super Mario, playing that
35:53was made in Japan. It was made in Japan.
35:55And I remember thinking like biopic is
35:58continuing to write itself. Okay. I can
36:00see the scene where you're like looking
36:02at the the made in Japan. So it was like
36:06and this was I mean for Brian and me
36:07this was our escape, right? Yeah, you
36:09know, and you kind of understand that
36:10that this is really the power of video
36:11games in a lot of ways is it it allows
36:13you to escape a situation for a few
36:16hours, a few, you know, 30 minutes if if
36:20if that's if that's how long you're
36:21playing for. But it is it is a form of
36:23escape and it can be a really positive
36:25one. I mean, for me, it activated my
36:27imagination. It got me thinking about
36:28storytelling. But it it was this thing
36:31that came from Japan. And I made in
36:32Japan is an association with with like
36:35imagination, escape, safety. Yeah. Yes.
36:39You know, all of these positive
36:41emotional experiences that you were
36:43lacking in your in your IRL. Exactly.
36:46And the local video store that I used to
36:48bike to back when they had local video
36:50stores, um, one of the guys there was
36:53like an anime maniac back in the late
36:55'8s. So this was he was really early on
36:57anime. and he would make bootleg copies
37:00of like Akira for me or Fist Fist of the
37:03North Star and you know we would watch
37:05these things and not really understand
37:06what they were about. I mean Akira is a
37:08really complicated weird movie. I don't
37:09know if you but this has stayed with you
37:11because you keep referring to it in your
37:12book. Yeah. So,
37:15you know, there was this ambient thing
37:17of like from outside of this
37:20place, this country called Japan exists
37:22and it makes a few things that are kind
37:25of interesting and bring me joy and like
37:27you said that that, you know, it's a
37:28it's kind of an archetype of safety and
37:30protection and and happiness. And so, I
37:33think that just stayed with me. And when
37:35the time came to study abroad or try to
37:38I was going to drop out of school. I
37:39wasn't going to go to um I was just
37:41going to give up college. And when it
37:43came time came to study abroad, I was
37:44kind of looking. I was like, "Well, what
37:45would it be like if I went to Japan?"
37:47And I found a couple websites of
37:49universities and I was like, "How much
37:50does this cost?" And it was like, I
37:52don't remember the exact figure, but it
37:54was like $5,000 for the year with a
37:56homeay. I mean, it was just so absurdly
37:58affordable. And even a plane ticket to
38:00get back then wasn't that expensive. You
38:01know, you fly economy to Japan, there's
38:03no I mean, hilariously, you know, it's
38:04like there were no monitors in the
38:06seatbacks. It was like it was a long
38:08flight, 14 hours or whatever from JFK.
38:10And um and I I just thought, well, that
38:14makes sense. Let's let's go do that
38:15before we completely drop out of school.
38:17And your mom, God bless her, had been
38:19saving for you ever since she was a
38:22young person. Ever since she was like
38:2320. Yeah. She she told me that story. It
38:27was just like she, you know, she didn't
38:29go to college until later and she
38:32graduated and high school and like she
38:35just wanted to be a mom. You know, she
38:37worked at the airplane factory. I guess
38:40her boyfriend dumped her or something
38:41and but she had just started saving for
38:44a kid that she knew she wanted to have
38:46at some point for education because I
38:49mean you looking back at the salaries
38:51and everything like my family did not we
38:52had we did not have an abundance. There
38:54was no there was no sense of abundance
38:56but my
38:57mom was able to save enough to basically
39:00say look
39:02leaving here is an option. going to
39:04college is an option and that from a
39:07very young age she she let me know and
39:09so to have
39:10that baseline there is a is a profound
39:13thing to give to a kid to say that there
39:15is a way out you know even if like I
39:17don't know the way out even if your dad
39:19definitely doesn't know the way out like
39:21maybe you can find the way out yeah so
39:23how did it land with her though when you
39:25you announced that you know this this
39:28was going to these resources were going
39:29to be deployed you know on the other
39:31side of the planet yeah I I mean, yeah,
39:34I don't think she thought I was going to
39:35be there for 25 years or like make my
39:37life there. Um, so it was just and you
39:40know, and and it was a complicated
39:42thing, too. I mean, my grandparents, uh,
39:44you know, they were very anti Japan. My
39:47grandfather had these weird rules. He
39:49never ate rice. He he had this I'm not
39:52going to eat rice because of World War
39:54II, which is, you know, an insane thing
39:56to associate rice with Japan. And he
39:59never bought a Japanese car. Only bought
40:01Fords. only bought. Yeah. I mean, he was
40:04very consistent in this kind of
40:06inability to overcome these biases that
40:08he had built up during the war. And um
40:10so for me to go there for them was
40:13emotionally quite complex. But you
40:15become this emissary to resolve
40:18generational trauma. Yes. Yes. Yes.
40:21Exactly. I eat so much rice just to eat
40:24it. You have a lot to make up. Eat it,
40:26Grandpa. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get
40:27enough of it because you're eating for
40:29the whole the whole line. back
40:31generations. So you you you land in
40:34Japan, this wideeyed 19-year-old kid who
40:37has been adopted who's now, you know,
40:40sort of unbeknownst to you, like
40:42adopting a new country, you know, uh
40:45that also has a very different
40:47relationship with adoption in general,
40:49which we'll get maybe we'll get to that
40:50a little bit later, but um that had to
40:53be quite a quite a seismic shock to the
40:56to the system. It was. And again, it's
40:58like none of this was conscious, right?
41:00It's so you just when you're 19 you
41:02still you don't know anything about the
41:03world. I mean you're really that's a
41:05really young age right and so you're
41:06just kind of moving on intuition and um
41:09you know I moved to Japan. I'm in Tokyo.
41:11I didn't know anything about Tokyo. I'm
41:13living in Shibuyaku. I'd never heard of
41:15Shabuya you know which is now like
41:17everyone everyone who's even I've heard
41:19of that. You've heard of it like you
41:20know every 12-year-old knows Shabuya.
41:22They want to go to Shabuya. You know
41:23it's like it's this crazy thing that um
41:25I I really went there knowing very
41:27little. And immediately I just sensed,
41:29holy everyone's taken care of.
41:32Like that was sort of the the ambient
41:34sense that I think I felt in my bones
41:37because I had come from this place
41:39where again when you grow up in it, you
41:41don't see it. And I I get to Japan and
41:43it was just like everyone I'm passing
41:46and I'm passing tens of thousands of
41:47people a day on my way to school. You
41:49know, it was kind of like a 30-minute
41:50commute to school. I passed 10,000
41:52people. I pass through Shinjuku station
41:54every day and you just felt like these
41:57people were taken care of by something
42:00something bigger than all of us. And
42:02that that really blew my mind. I mean
42:04that just that I think that's why I
42:06ended up staying. That's why I Well,
42:08that's what you That's what you were
42:09looking for. That's what you didn't have
42:11and what you needed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
42:14Yeah. It's it's it's almost this
42:17predestined thing, right? It was a faded
42:19thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there is a
42:22there's something ineffable about it
42:24that I think is really beautiful. Well,
42:26it speaks to soft power too, you It's
42:28like we we talk about this thing of soft
42:30countries having soft power and like you
42:32know Japan producing these things of
42:34delight that happened to catch me when I
42:38was young and in a in a really in a
42:40place where I needed help you know and
42:42kids can't always get help from their
42:43environment and sometimes it's this
42:45external third party thing that swoops
42:47in and provides a little bit of reprieve
42:50and the fact that like the soft power of
42:52that too and Nintendo being such a good
42:54company I think that that this is also
42:56like really interesting is that come. If
42:58you look at like kind of all the video
42:59game companies in the world, like
43:01Nintendo is
43:04genuinely probably the one less least
43:06motivated by explicit capitalism and
43:08most motivated by joy and goodness uh of
43:12game design. So, it's like there's a lot
43:14of games today that are essentially
43:15casinos, right? Casino style games,
43:17Candy Crush and all that stuff focused
43:19on making money. Nintendo obviously has
43:21to make money and they make lots of
43:22money, but like you play uh Zelda, you
43:25know, one of the latest Zeldas on
43:26Switch. That is a game with well-defined
43:29boundaries. You can finish it. You know,
43:32it's not about a casino mechanic. It's
43:33about exploration. During co I played
43:36with my with my daughter a bunch. I I
43:38bought a Switch. It was the first time
43:39actually when I was writing this book, I
43:41was like, "Oh man, I owe Brian some
43:42video game time." So, I bought a Switch
43:45and I hadn't played video games in like
43:4625, 30 years. And um playing with my
43:50daughter was incredible, you know, and
43:52she was, how old was she? She would have
43:54been like 10 or 11. And being able to
43:56put it up on the projector and walk
43:57through these worlds and you just felt
43:59like this is a company that really does
44:02respect the gamer and respect respect
44:04the customer in a way that Yeah. the the
44:06nostalgia quotient is very high, that
44:08company, right? It's sort of beloved by
44:11an entire generation perhaps for that
44:13reason. So it's even if the idea that it
44:17is a well-run company by
44:19well-intentioned people is not something
44:22you're aware of, it seeps into the
44:24products and that's perhaps why it's
44:26beloved in that way. And it points back
44:28to the thing I said earlier, which is
44:29like there's a sense of enough, right?
44:31And like you just get a sense that
44:32Nintendo is not about looking at a a
44:35spreadsheet going, how do we make all
44:36these numbers go up forever? You know,
44:38it's like they want the numbers to go
44:40up. shareholders that whatever they're a
44:41public company yada yada yada but they
44:43want the numbers to go up but there is
44:44something there's some sort of
44:45philosophy in in internal there that is
44:48saying we don't have to milk all of
44:51these things for the most possible money
44:52and in fact we want to be optimizing for
44:54just the most respect for the the jen
44:57son the regular the customer the the
44:59gamer whatever which I I I love that and
45:01I think it's why Nintendo if you look so
45:04many people want Nintendo to succeed
45:06like it's a weirdly high the nostalgia
45:08part quote quote is part of it, but
45:10they've also just engendered a lot of
45:12good vibes over the years, and I love
45:14that. You know, as much as uh Japan was
45:18a place in which you were like finding
45:23yourself, you were also you have to like
45:25lose yourself to find yourself, right?
45:26So, it is this lost and found thing. I
45:29mean, your story and the way in which
45:32you kind of address the the the
45:34weightier like themes and subject matter
45:37is a is a very um yin-yang thing, you
45:40know. It's like
45:43uh and within this, you know, you're
45:46you're finding yourself in this new
45:47place. you had to break free to like
45:49reimagine what your life would could
45:51could be like. But there is also um you
45:54know some grief and some sadness and a
45:56sense of loss and having lost yourself
45:58on an identity level by being so far
46:01away from home. Yeah, it's a great way
46:02to put it. Yeah. I mean it was it was
46:05complicated as hell, you know. It's like
46:07and uh you know, as much as I didn't
46:10touch drugs or alcohol throughout my
46:12teenage years, as soon as I got to
46:13Tokyo, it was like, you know, no holds
46:15barred. Bring it on. game. Well,
46:18everyone's partying, right? It's pretty
46:20it's a pretty alcohol rife culture.
46:22Yeah, the drinking culture. Thankfully,
46:23in the last, I'd say decade, it's kind
46:25of calmed down a little bit. I think the
46:26younger uh generations are are not quite
46:30putting up with as much uh power
46:32harassment/ like alcohol abuse that. But
46:35when I arrived, it was peaking. I mean,
46:38we were at it was, you know, I I I've
46:40been a musician my whole life, a
46:41drummer. I studied jazz. That was kind
46:43of one of the things that was I had a
46:45few tricks that I was skills I was
46:47cultivating to like get me out of town,
46:49get me out of my place like you know
46:51tethers to the greater world and music
46:53was a big one of part of it and um when
46:55I moved to Tokyo immediately I joined at
46:58the university I was at Waseda
46:59University which is a great university
47:01amazing kind of like a a hippie version
47:03of like Yale sort of if you want to like
47:06there's a lot of like like Murkami
47:08Haruki came from it there's you know
47:09there's a lot of lot of artists and
47:11writers and stuff that come out of it
47:12But I joined the music circle and
47:14immediately just started playing drums
47:16and part of the reinvention thing was
47:17like, "All right, no more jazz. Let's do
47:19punk rock." So I joined a punk rock trio
47:22and the music circle. My god, did those
47:24guys drink and so I joined them. Yeah.
47:28You know, good times.
47:31Until it's not, right? Yeah. How long
47:34how long until it wasn't? I
47:37mean, so I b I
47:40drank I was blacking out probably like
47:42two, three, four times a week from 20 to
47:48like 28, I'd say. That's a pretty good
47:50dose. Yeah. And, you know, lesser and
47:55higher moments in there. Um, but it was
47:59this thing, you know, and again, being
48:01adopted is complicated because you don't
48:03have that family history to look at and
48:06go, "Oh, I should watch out for this or
48:08I should watch out for that or, you
48:09know, I have a predilction, you know, to
48:11to drink 15 drinks in a night." But
48:14there's something that activated in me
48:16if I had two drinks. I mean, you
48:19probably know this, right? It's like
48:21suddenly everything in life is for the
48:23next drink. It was just
48:27unreal that desire and then also
48:30personality change. I mean just a
48:32totally different person like complete
48:35uh
48:36extrovert sort of impressario of
48:40whatever of the place and um you know
48:42buying shots for everyone and like
48:44getting everyone oh you need to drink
48:45you know it's like I've definitely
48:46almost killed friends of mine like like
48:48you know it's like you can kind of like
48:50chuckle about this now but it's like I
48:51have friends who've like woken up in the
48:53street the next day and they like
48:56they're like you you did this to me.
48:58It's like I have no idea. But like
49:00passing out in the street, I mean, from
49:02what I understand, like that's not
49:04unusual in Tokyo. No. So, no, they wake
49:07up, a cop is kind of shaking their
49:08shoulder saying, "Hey, you got to wake
49:09up. They're in front of like
49:10Takashimaya, you know, department store
49:12or something, you know, and they kind of
49:13get up and go home." But, you know, I I
49:15I for me the the the drinking was a
49:18shock. um how good I was at it in this
49:21in the sense of I could have 15 20
49:23drinks a night like and my and just the
49:24desire for it and how that it was almost
49:27like a perpetual motion machine you know
49:29and as soon as you had three or four it
49:31was just it was off we were off to the
49:33races um I see that now connected to
49:36several things one exactly like you were
49:38saying the complexity of being in this
49:42new place and and trying to find
49:43yourself and trying to shed who you were
49:45right and so I think alcohol can kind of
49:46act as a reset for that but also Like I
49:49didn't have any archetypes. I didn't
49:51have any mentors. I didn't have anyone I
49:54could talk to about these emotions. You
49:56know, I didn't have a dad I could talk
49:57to about any of this stuff. Like, you
49:59know, my my mom, my grandparents, like,
50:01no one could understand what I was
50:03doing. And, you know, in this new city,
50:06I didn't have anyone older that I could
50:07say, "Hey, I need help with this." And
50:10and and no therapist. No therapist. God,
50:14if I could just go back in time and just
50:16like whisper into my ear in a bar
50:18somewhere, I'd be like, "Just get the
50:20therapist, you know, like just do that
50:21when you're 20." Um, I think the alcohol
50:25was acting as a as kind of a surrogacy
50:27for uh the pain of wanting to become
50:29someone different and not knowing how to
50:30do it. And and also, you know, your best
50:33friend getting murdered and and and
50:35being, you know, brought up in a in a in
50:37in an environment of chaos. Well, and
50:39the guilt of kind of leaving that
50:40behind, too. And the guilt of I think
50:42when he was murdered, I internalized a
50:44lot more guilt than maybe I I I
50:46consciously recognized in the sense of
50:48like what could I have done to have
50:49helped him? How could I have pulled him
50:50in more in my direction? Could I have
50:52done that? And then you realize like
50:53when you're a teenager like you're just
50:55trying to get your own stuff in order
50:57and it's so difficult. And so the idea
50:59that you could be you don't have your
51:01mask on, you don't have your life jacket
51:02on that you're saving another person
51:03who's drowning is just crazy, right? And
51:05so I think that guilt was present in it
51:08as well. a lot of the a lot of what I
51:10was doing. And and how long did you play
51:12out that narrative before you decided
51:14you needed to address it? It was, you
51:17know, like I said, 20 to basically 27
51:1928. Um, and it was funny. I mean, I was
51:22very high functioning in the sense that
51:24I was going to the gym three times a
51:26week. I was biking. I got really into
51:28road biking. I would do 200 mile, you
51:30know, loops on the weekend. Totally hung
51:34over, sweating out like a gallon of
51:35whiskey. Um, but I would go and do these
51:37things. So, I had this weird
51:39uh knowledge that I think I needed to
51:42take care of my body so I could do more
51:44drinking, right? It's a it's a twofold
51:46thing. First, like when you're in your
51:4820s, you can kind of do that, you know?
51:50But secondly, and I relate to this
51:52deeply, like if you are able to maintain
51:56being high functioning or high
51:58performing in whatever it is you're
52:00doing, that acts as a rationale like,
52:02oh, as you know, like I, you know, as
52:05long as I, you know, as long as I'm
52:06going to the gym or I could do these
52:07things, I don't have a problem. I don't
52:09have anything to look at. And then also
52:12a little bit of um false pride or
52:17superiority like for sure like not only
52:19can I like go out and have 20 drinks, I
52:21can still show up on time and crush it,
52:23you know, in in school or in my band or
52:26in whatever else you're involved in. And
52:28so then it it it gives you this inflated
52:31um sense of power that is really just an
52:35illusion. Yep. 100%. So, I was, you
52:39know, I was working on I was art
52:41director for uh indie press and we were
52:44winning awards and I was throwing all
52:45these book parties in Tokyo that were
52:46like the biggest most fun book parties
52:49anyone ever had. All a big look at me.
52:50Yeah. Exactly. And uh and getting these
52:53kind of uh artist residencies. I was in
52:56I was Beniton gave me this residency um
52:58in Traviso north of uh north of Venice
53:00in Italy and like so I was doing all
53:02these things but even that Italy time I
53:04remember like how many times I blacked
53:05out like in the week I was you know in
53:07Italy I mean but you're like this taste
53:08maker basically then at that time I was
53:12I was really lucky I don't know I mean I
53:15I happened to be focused on from a young
53:17age I loved books I loved storytelling I
53:20love novels and I loved technology and
53:23technology was twofold thing one it was
53:25there was just something magical about
53:26it and I thought it could I could see
53:28how it could help with storytelling and
53:29so that was kind of like part of the
53:30addiction and then part two was like
53:32holy crap you can make a lot of money
53:34doing this and like wait I can make more
53:36than both of my parents combined if I
53:38like make web pages this is me when I'm
53:3914 it's like okay I should focus on this
53:41like we should we should cultivate this
53:43skill so I had this weird skill set
53:45where I was making physical books that
53:47were winning design awards as physical
53:49objects and then I was doing digital uh
53:52kind of design stuff and data
53:54visualization stuff This is like early
53:552000s. That was also winning awards and
53:58getting me called to go abroad and be a
54:00judge of the art director club. You like
54:03took a detour to Silicon Valley for a
54:04while, didn't you? That was 2010. So
54:06that was that was kind of post, okay,
54:08let's get sober, let's fix our life. Um,
54:10but in the early my early 20s, uh, I was
54:13born in 80, so it kind of maps to years
54:15easily, but in the early 2000s, you
54:18know, I'm drinking like a like a fish,
54:20kind of destroying a lot of like
54:22friendships and romantic relationships.
54:25And it was really when I was 26 and I
54:27was
54:27just truly what I thought was the love
54:30of my life, just this person that was
54:31absolutely perfect, uh, left me. You
54:33know, we went on this 40-day trip
54:36through Tibet. We met, you know, it was
54:37like this, it was this totally crazy
54:40adventure that we went on. Um, we met
54:43instantly going on a 40-day trip. We're
54:44like, you know, drunk the whole time and
54:46it's just wild and like we're, you know,
54:48making love on a glacier and like it was
54:50just insane. It was it was it was as
54:53crazy as you could imagine. So good it
54:54had to be doomed. It was so doomed. And
54:58she left me. It was basically just like
55:00you are killing yourself. Like I can't
55:04be with someone like you. And that that
55:07truly just emptied me out, broke me. And
55:11I I was 27ish and that was when I
55:14realized, okay, I got to stop whatever
55:17I'm doing. I've got to stop. And I was
55:19playing music in I was in the studio a
55:21bunch, but I was also playing a lot of
55:22live gigs and there was a whole bunch of
55:23drinking connected with that. So I
55:24actually I stopped playing music, which
55:26is kind of extreme. Um, and I I was
55:30like, I'm going to take all this
55:30creative energy, it's going to go into
55:32writing. Uh because I had been writing
55:33up until then, but I hadn't really
55:35committed committed. And I was like,
55:36"Okay, let's transmute music energy into
55:39writing energy." And it was like 3:00 in
55:41the morning. I'm lying in my tiny sixmat
55:44apartment, which is barely bigger than
55:45probably two of these tables. Wow.
55:48And I'm having suicidal thoughts. The
55:52love of my life has left me. I feel so
55:55empty. I don't know how to become the
55:58person I I want to be, which is someone
56:01that's creative and knows how to love
56:03and knows how to accept love and can do
56:05can do these things. And I was like,
56:07"All right, well, what do we do?" And
56:08and it's kind of funny now that I know
56:10about Stuts and his triangle and all
56:12this stuff. It's like I just intuitively
56:14I was like, "Okay, let's start running."
56:16And it was 3:00 in the morning. Not like
56:18you. I didn't run 40 miles, but but I
56:20got up and I ran like 5k around a quiet
56:22Tokyo at 3 in the morning. And I was
56:26like, that felt good. And I was like,
56:28all right, I'm going to try to cut the
56:29alcohol out as much as I can and start
56:31doing more more of this running. And I
56:32signed up for a full marathon around uh
56:35Mount Fuji uh Lake Kawaguchi and started
56:38training for that. And that that was my
56:41first I think um it did a couple things.
56:43One, it it realized you I realized I
56:46can't just quit drinking. That's not
56:47going to work for me. Um I have to
56:48replace it with something else that
56:50gives me a purpose to not drink. And so
56:52by knowing I had to train, that was a
56:53way to say no to the drinking at night.
56:55Um it was also a way for me to tell
56:57friends I didn't have to drink cuz you
56:58know the problem is is like you've by
57:00the time you're 28 29 you have this
57:03people that drink and expect you to
57:04drink. It can be a little a little
57:06difficult to almost like sociopathic to
57:08have to step away from that. You almost
57:10have to be like all right guys sorry I'm
57:11never going to hang out with you again.
57:12You know it's like I can't do this. And
57:14so I started doing that. But what was
57:16really happening now that I look back at
57:17it was I had no selfworth. like my
57:20self-worth was sub-zero and all
57:24throughout my teens and my 20s. And part
57:26of this is the adoption component.
57:28Adopted kids, uh, now that I know more
57:30about it, I've talked to more people
57:31about it. I've I've been on an adoption
57:33podcast with someone who's interviewed
57:34three 400 adopes and there are just
57:37these sort of pathological tendencies of
57:39an adoptee where you create all these
57:41emotional barriers. You sort of lower
57:43your self-worth. Uh, adopes are four
57:45times more likely to be uh substance
57:47abusers. uh twice as more likely to have
57:50suicidal thoughts. Um there is just
57:52something implicit about, oh, you're not
57:54from our family, you're not from us. As
57:56much as that family may say, oh, we love
57:58you, people vastly underestimate the
58:00amount of work that has to go into
58:02making an adoptive kid feel great. And
58:05so then when you're in a situation like
58:06mine where these parents adopt you and
58:08then two years later they get divorced
58:09and then the dad isn't really there. I
58:11mean, it just doesn't. And then my mom
58:12had, you know, boyfriends and then I'd
58:14think this guy's kind of like my dad and
58:16then they would break up and there was
58:17no reconciliation and he would just
58:19disappear. And so you just think, oh,
58:21I'm someone who's thrown away. That's
58:22what you internalize. Oh, I'm someone
58:24who's just who can be thrown away. And
58:27man, that really doesn't do wonders for
58:29your self worth. That's super
58:31interesting. This idea that you're
58:33disposable and and your higher self, you
58:36know, drops you into Japan. That has a
58:39very different relationship with
58:40disposability.
58:42Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
58:44Exactly. Yeah. That's
58:47interesting. I hadn't thought about that
58:50disposable component. Yeah. And and the
58:52being taken care of by the greater whole
58:54component and the sensibility around
58:56adoption there like adoption is is
59:00aspirational almost, right? It's like
59:02I'm taking you under my wing because
59:04because you are worthy, not because you
59:06were discarded. And you see that kind of
59:08in the craftsman and craftwoman area of
59:11people being adopted into families to
59:13continue continue the name. Um and you
59:15see it in ins. So an inn that's been
59:17around for 600 years. You know it's not
59:19the same blood family. Um but it's
59:21people have been adopted in and kind of
59:23taken over. Um yeah there is a really
59:25kind of healthy relationship with that
59:27idea of that you can be folded into a
59:29family kind of like flour into wet dough
59:31and it's not you're not apart from the
59:33family. You you're really integrated.
59:35Um, so I think that felt good to have
59:37that ambiencece around me as well. So
59:40the the sobriety journey begins with the
59:43running. Like does that work? Does that
59:44work for you? Like how does this go?
59:46Like you're not like falling into an AA
59:48meeting somewhere? I'm not in an AA
59:50meeting. Um because I don't they have AA
59:53meetings in Tokyo now. I know about
59:54that, but um I don't I'm sure they had
59:56them back then, but I wasn't privy to
59:58it. And you know, it wasn't a a like,
1:00:03okay, I'm done. and like just I'm clean
1:00:05now. It took me about 3 years to and it
1:00:08was if I look over those three years, it
1:00:09was about ratcheting up my sense of
1:00:11selfworth. It that's all I was doing.
1:00:14Again, subconsciously I had no conscious
1:00:16there was no plan to do this. The
1:00:17running was part of it. Take care of the
1:00:19body. Uh mood follows action. All that
1:00:21stuff. And it was like, okay, let me
1:00:22take care of the body. Start doing that.
1:00:23That's the one thing I have control
1:00:24over. I didn't have any money. So, I
1:00:26didn't it's not like, oh, let me let me
1:00:28go do this like fancy retreat in
1:00:30Thailand or something. I didn't I didn't
1:00:31have the means to do that. So, but I
1:00:33could go for runs. That's easy. Doesn't
1:00:34cost anything. Um, that started to feel
1:00:36good. And I started charging more. Like,
1:00:38I just had this moment where I was like,
1:00:40I'm going to start charging more for my
1:00:42time. You know, I was doing basically um
1:00:46tech consulting stuff. Like, cuz I just
1:00:48had these skills I built up as a
1:00:49teenager. And even though all of my main
1:00:52work was working on indie publishing and
1:00:55doing uh you know design for these books
1:00:57and working with these these these
1:00:59authors and putting on events and stuff
1:01:00like that, it was all physical book
1:01:02publishing. I I had this skill set in
1:01:04digital where I could work for, you
1:01:06know, I could do two weeks of work and
1:01:07have 6 months of of living expenses
1:01:10because in Japan, that was another
1:01:11reason I stayed was my monthly cost of
1:01:13living was $1,000. if I had a thousand
1:01:15dollars that covered rent, food, and
1:01:18going out and having fun. So, right,
1:01:20when that So, I was cultivating an
1:01:23aestheticism as well all throughout my
1:01:2520s. And um that gives you a tremendous
1:01:27amount of power, flexibility, and you
1:01:29aren't beholdened to doing a thing that
1:01:31you don't want to do. And so, I was very
1:01:32lucky that in my 20s, I was pretty
1:01:34uncompromising. As much as I was
1:01:36self-abusing myself with with the the
1:01:38alcohol and not not taking care of
1:01:40myself, I was uncompromising in that I
1:01:43was only working on projects I felt a
1:01:45deep spiritual like almost like
1:01:47theological connection to. And so I was
1:01:50doing these little gigs, you know, tech
1:01:51things here and there. I was like,
1:01:52"Okay, let me what if I charge like 3 or
1:01:544x?" And people started saying yes. I
1:01:56was like, "Oh, that's cool." And that
1:01:58started to raise like if there's like a
1:01:59little internal self value meter, you
1:02:02know, it's like I started at the meter
1:02:03was broken, you know, and then I went in
1:02:05there with running and we started to fix
1:02:06the meter a little and then charging a
1:02:07little more kind of ratcheted it up a
1:02:09little bit more. And then going out to
1:02:11Silicon Valley was sort of I'd say
1:02:13probably one of the most pivotal moments
1:02:14of my adult life. In 2010, I had this
1:02:17opportunity because of essays I had been
1:02:19writing. So gave up music, started
1:02:21committing to writing, putting these
1:02:22essays out into the world, and they just
1:02:24started to do really well getting picked
1:02:25up. The New York Times is writing about
1:02:26them. You know, it's like suddenly I've
1:02:27got all these followers and I was
1:02:29invited to join this company in PaloAlto
1:02:32that was working at this intersection of
1:02:34kind of design, publishing, digital
1:02:36media. Was that Flipboard? It was
1:02:38Flipboard. Flipboard. I remember
1:02:39Flipboard. Flipboard. And so I joined
1:02:41right when they were like just just
1:02:43started booming. Employee number eight,
1:02:45you know, that sort of thing. Oh wow.
1:02:46And to go there and I moved in to this
1:02:50house two blocks from Steve Jobs and we
1:02:53were able to rent the house. Me and
1:02:54these two guys from Stanford in
1:02:56Woodside. No, no, this was in Palo Alto.
1:02:58In Palo Alto. In old Palo Alto. Uh Steve
1:03:00Jobs, you know, I think he passed away
1:03:03in that house even. You know, it was he
1:03:05was right on Sanorita. And um it was I
1:03:10don't know if you've ever seen it. It
1:03:11was I don't know that I have. I knew he
1:03:13had a home in Woodside, like a really
1:03:14nice place. I think that was earlier
1:03:16actually when he was younger. He did the
1:03:17Woodside thing. He was like dating Joan
1:03:19Bayz at the time.
1:03:21It's like this Dylan kind of like
1:03:22stalker, you know, sort of situation
1:03:24going on. But his main home, at least
1:03:27for the later years of his life, was in
1:03:29Old Palo Alto. And it like it's just a
1:03:31twotory. It is the most unassuming place
1:03:33you've ever seen, like a couple blocks
1:03:35off university or something. Exactly.
1:03:37Yeah. Yeah. Just super close to
1:03:38Stanford, you know, right off the the
1:03:40Cal Train stop. Um Yeah. I mean, so I'd
1:03:43walk past his house every day. So I went
1:03:45from for as great as Tokyo is, it is
1:03:48pretty provincial and people there don't
1:03:50really think on an international scale.
1:03:52So part of going to Silicon Valley was I
1:03:54was like, "All right, let me see what
1:03:55it's like to work with these top top
1:03:56people." And I and the guy who invited
1:03:59me, um, Marcos Westamp was a designer I
1:04:01had respected all throughout my 20s. I
1:04:04mean, he was probably one of the most
1:04:05for me most respected designers in the
1:04:07world. and to go be able to work with
1:04:09Marcos and have Marcos come to me
1:04:11directly and say, "Craig, you need to be
1:04:13here with us right now. This is so
1:04:15great." That again, that little internal
1:04:17meter of like, "Do I have value?" And,
1:04:20you know, imposter syndrome was
1:04:21constantly like fighting against that.
1:04:22Do I have value? You know, these little
1:04:23things ratcheted up. So I moved to old
1:04:25Palo Alto and my two roommates were
1:04:27these Stanford Dhool guys and like we
1:04:30you know we moved into this house which
1:04:32was like this cute little like
1:04:33singlestory house and I was sleeping on
1:04:36a yoga mat for the first month like
1:04:38there was no furniture. We just had we
1:04:40had a a a kitchen table that we'd all
1:04:42kind of hunch around. One guy was a
1:04:44filmmaker documentary filmmaker making
1:04:45amazing docs these like short form docs.
1:04:48And then the other guy uh was guy named
1:04:50Enrique Enrique Allen. um he was just
1:04:53this bastion of love and creativity and
1:04:55he was kind of working with investments
1:04:56and stuff and I moved I you know Japan
1:04:59famously doesn't really hug doesn't
1:05:01really touch so I'd lived essentially 10
1:05:04years of my life without any hugs you
1:05:06know and then I moved into this house in
1:05:08Palo Alto and these guys were just the
1:05:11freaking huggiest guys in the world and
1:05:13every day I'm just being smothered by
1:05:14these hugs and they were so positive
1:05:18they were vegetarians uh there's no
1:05:20drugs uh alcohol. They didn't drink. And
1:05:23I I went from this place of everyone's
1:05:26getting blasted, blacking out. You know,
1:05:28alcohol is part and parcel of
1:05:29everything. Every meal is like just
1:05:31meat. You know, Japan loves meat, right?
1:05:33It's just like beef everywhere. Uh to
1:05:34moving into this house where these guys
1:05:36are just hugging me constantly. There's
1:05:38no meat. There's no alcohol. And they
1:05:41come from clearly a place of abundance.
1:05:44These two guys, you just felt behind
1:05:47them were generations of love that had
1:05:51manifested these two human beings. And
1:05:54to be in that their presence, I lived
1:05:56with them for 3 years. To be in that
1:05:58presence, even after 2 months, I met up
1:05:59with a good friend of mine, Liz Danzico,
1:06:02um this amazing design teacher,
1:06:04educator. Um we met up for pizza in New
1:06:07Haven and she just at the end of pizza,
1:06:10she just goes, "Craig, I don't know what
1:06:12the hell's going on, man." like I you're
1:06:15a different guy. I've known you for five
1:06:16years at this point. You're you're a
1:06:19different human. Like just keep doing
1:06:20this. Whatever you're doing now, keep
1:06:22keep following that path. And so that
1:06:24was all just part of this how do I give
1:06:28myself again not having a mentor, not
1:06:30having a uh an archetype, not having
1:06:32someone older to to lead the way. How do
1:06:34I give myself a greater sense of
1:06:36selfworth? And in doing that, the
1:06:39alcohol fell away pretty naturally. M
1:06:41and I'd say it was about 31 when I was
1:06:43finally able to really kind of say
1:06:47goodbye for good. Put it completely in
1:06:48the rear view. Yeah. But surrounding
1:06:50yourself with peers that are modeling
1:06:53healthy behavior uh being such a
1:06:56profound thing like they're not
1:06:58necessarily mentors but you shifted your
1:07:01friend group and your environment such
1:07:03that um you put yourself in a position
1:07:06to like observe what that might look
1:07:09like. For sure. and to be on the
1:07:10receiving end of that from them to
1:07:13engender that that kind of
1:07:14self-compassion and selfrespect and I
1:07:17did it basically twice, right? So it's
1:07:19like my teenage years I was in one place
1:07:20and I was like I have to get out of here
1:07:22and then I'm 20 and I'm now in Japan and
1:07:24doing kind of a reinvention which some
1:07:27good, some bad, you know, whatever. The
1:07:28alcohol was suboptimal. If I could if I
1:07:30could remove the alcohol from my 20s and
1:07:33I don't really believe this idea of like
1:07:35oh well because you went through that
1:07:36now you're a better per you know like
1:07:37you are who you I like I've met kids who
1:07:40are in a good place at at 20 and it's
1:07:43much better to be in a good place at 20
1:07:44than like to be in a bad place and then
1:07:45struggle through alcohol and yada yada
1:07:47yada it's like I can maybe I can
1:07:48empathize with people who who've had
1:07:50these struggles now in a way that you
1:07:51can't it's difficult if you haven't but
1:07:52like if I if I could have avoided that
1:07:54that would have been great but there was
1:07:55a then a part of me that at the end of
1:07:57my 20s where I was like okay I need
1:07:59something else. And again, it was
1:08:00switching cultural contexts, moving to
1:08:02Palo Alto to a place I'd never lived
1:08:04before, living with people I didn't
1:08:06know, and kind of putting on again this
1:08:07leaning into this new identity, um,
1:08:09which was an identity of abundance. You
1:08:12know, I was getting paid, you know,
1:08:15$30,000 a month or something like it's
1:08:17like I went from making $15,000 a year
1:08:20for most of my 20s. I could go back to
1:08:21Japan and live forever. No, I was. But
1:08:24that was that was always there cuz the
1:08:26escape hatch was always there. I was
1:08:28like, I know how to live on $1,000 a
1:08:29month and I can live richly. So, okay,
1:08:32you just gave me, you know, 30 months of
1:08:33living in one month. It was And in Palo
1:08:36Alto, I lived like you got a yoga mat
1:08:38getting paid that that amount of money.
1:08:40Yeah, that's that's wild. It was pretty
1:08:42weird.
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1:11:00those guys that your housemates um seem
1:11:03on some level to exhibit uh something
1:11:06that you talk about in the book which
1:11:08for me like one of the biggest most
1:11:11impactful
1:11:12uh things that that that I took away
1:11:16from reading your book is this idea I'd
1:11:19never heard of before called yoyu. Is
1:11:21that how you say it? Is that how you
1:11:22pronounce it? Yoyo yoyu. Yoyo, I want to
1:11:25hear more about this because I think
1:11:26this is a really like cool and profound
1:11:29idea. Yeah. So, yo-yo in in Japanese is,
1:11:34you know, and I kind I bristle at the
1:11:36idea of
1:11:37like quoting a a mystical Japanese word
1:11:40and saying like, you know, oh, this is
1:11:41like translated for you. This is the
1:11:44magical art of whatever. It's just their
1:11:46It's just a word they have for an idea
1:11:48that we don't really have quite the word
1:11:50for. Exactly. Exactly. and and and um
1:11:53you in English it could kind of be
1:11:55empathy but it's it's deeper than
1:11:56empathy you know and in Japanese the way
1:11:58I've I've come to understand it is is
1:12:00having the space in your heart to accept
1:12:04someone else to have space in your heart
1:12:06for someone else an abundance of space
1:12:08in your heart in your life to be able to
1:12:09accept hardship to be able to respond to
1:12:11hardship
1:12:13um and that's I think what I felt
1:12:16fundamentally when I moved there is that
1:12:20Having these systems on a greater level
1:12:23supporting people imbued everyone I saw
1:12:25on the street, everyone I was passing
1:12:27with this a little bit of yo-yo and more
1:12:29people have more yo-yo and less yoyo
1:12:30than others. But there was this sense of
1:12:32space in the heart like you know when I
1:12:33when I first got off Narita Express, you
1:12:35know, I arrive in Tokyo. This is how
1:12:37little I knew about Tokyo. I arrive get
1:12:39off at Narita, get on the Narita
1:12:41Express, the train stops at Tokyo
1:12:43station, I think, oh, this is Tokyo
1:12:45city, not knowing that Tokyo had, you
1:12:47know, a hundred stations in it. So I get
1:12:49up at Tokyo station and I'm like I have
1:12:51to go to Shibuyaku. I have to get to
1:12:53Shibuya. I was living in Hatagaya and I
1:12:55kind of looked befuddled and someone
1:12:57came up to me, you know, a lady, you
1:12:58know, a woman maybe in her 40s or
1:13:00whatever. You know, I was 19 so everyone
1:13:02felt, you know, if you're over 30,
1:13:03you're the ancient. So a woman in her
1:13:0440s comes over to me and like do you
1:13:06need help? And I was like, I need to go
1:13:07to this address. And she's like, oh my
1:13:09god, like you're nowhere near. And she
1:13:10took me all the way like a half an hour
1:13:13on the train. She took me to the this
1:13:15other station, helped me transfer, did
1:13:16this thing. That's unheard of. That's
1:13:18unheard of and that is yoyo in action.
1:13:20That is having an abundance of space in
1:13:22your heart to be able to do that for
1:13:24someone and that immediately that as
1:13:27being literally my first interaction I
1:13:29had getting arriving in Tokyo I think
1:13:31just started to re reccalibrate sort of
1:13:34reprogram my entire way of thinking
1:13:35about the world. It's a relationship
1:13:37with abundance though because in the
1:13:39west abundance is something we're
1:13:42seeking and when we get it we uh we
1:13:46reward ourselves by trying to get more
1:13:48of it and hoarding it. Right. It's sort
1:13:52of an energetic thing. Your relationship
1:13:54with this energy is such that should you
1:13:56be lucky enough to have it um it's best
1:14:00uh it's best deployed you know outward
1:14:04in service of other people. And when you
1:14:06have a lot like then you have more to
1:14:08give and it's your responsibility to
1:14:10give that right. And in doing that you
1:14:13engender empathy. It allows you to
1:14:16forgive more easily. Like it it it opens
1:14:19up space to your point um for these
1:14:21other emotions that we tend to like kind
1:14:23of um clamp down on or you know we hoard
1:14:27those too. Like I'm not going to forgive
1:14:28you until this or that. We're very
1:14:30conditional about these things. Yeah.
1:14:31And I think being around people with
1:14:34yoyo and realizing I grew up in a place
1:14:36with no yo-yo where everyone was
1:14:38economically kind of pushed against the
1:14:39wall and in terms of what are our
1:14:42opportunities well there aren't any. And
1:14:44so like when you're in a situation like
1:14:45that where you can fall when you see how
1:14:47far you can fall I think this is like
1:14:49another thing about the the American
1:14:51condition that's a little bit scary is
1:14:53when you see how far you can fall and
1:14:54you can fall to hell beyond hell in
1:14:57America. There just aren't those safety
1:14:59nets to catch you. um when you see how
1:15:01far you can fall, it's really hard to
1:15:03feel a sense of abundance that you can
1:15:05give to other people. And so in Japan,
1:15:07because of like all these structures and
1:15:08these social structures and like you can
1:15:10only fall, oh, I can see how far I can
1:15:11fall. It's not that far. It's not that
1:15:12scary for me to help this other person
1:15:14out. Um I think just being around that
1:15:16and feeling that and then being on these
1:15:17big solo walks that I've been doing now
1:15:19for six, seven years. It was in that and
1:15:22I write about this in the book, you
1:15:23know, I was able to I'm able to laugh
1:15:26about who my father was. I was able to
1:15:28find this crazy
1:15:31sense of forgiveness for this guy that I
1:15:34didn't know was possible. I didn't know
1:15:35I was capable of. And you know, feeling
1:15:38that, experiencing that is again, again,
1:15:40we're getting back to this
1:15:42self-worth ratcheting. And I think
1:15:44having a sense of yoyu, feeling that
1:15:45yoyu, being able to deploy it in a way
1:15:47that's positive, that elevates people.
1:15:49Uh, again, that just helps you feel like
1:15:51you're you have more value as a human,
1:15:52too. It's like it's it's mutually
1:15:54beneficial.
1:15:56Why didn't you end up staying in in Palo
1:15:58Alto? What h what what what what caused
1:16:01you to go back? It served its purpose,
1:16:03you know. It was like it was a great
1:16:05experience. I mean, and like I said,
1:16:07probably one of the most profound,
1:16:08possibly most important three years of
1:16:10my life living with these guys, uh doing
1:16:13this work with people that were
1:16:14operating at the highest highest levels,
1:16:15getting paid uh these ridiculous amounts
1:16:17of money. But at the same time, I felt
1:16:20like I had what I had cultivated in my
1:16:2220s, the voice I had cultivated, the
1:16:25focus of the work I wanted to to be
1:16:28focused on in my 20s, I felt like the
1:16:32financial abundance that existed in
1:16:35Silicon Valley was actively kind of
1:16:37working against what I had built up.
1:16:40Because as much as I was around these
1:16:42people who weren't drinking, you know,
1:16:44were vegetarian, were giving lots of
1:16:46hugs and things like that, there was
1:16:48also this other layer of people and the
1:16:50majority of people who were just like,
1:16:51"Oh, let me get this Woodside house or
1:16:52let me get this Athetherton house or let
1:16:54me get this, oh, I just got a new
1:16:55Maserati. I got this thing." And that to
1:16:57me didn't it didn't jive with with who I
1:17:01had built up, who I'd spent the last 15
1:17:03years building inside of me. And I had a
1:17:05lot of love for that person inside of me
1:17:07and who who kind of worked in this
1:17:09intuitive way and had uh an
1:17:11uncompromising focus to work on books
1:17:13like these that were not going to make
1:17:15me nearly as much as staying in Silicon
1:17:17Valley. And I was really lucky. I was
1:17:18being off offered all these
1:17:19opportunities. You know, I was close
1:17:21with Ev Williams. I was being, you know,
1:17:22asked to be uh work for every major
1:17:25company at that point was basically
1:17:27trying to hire me and and have me be an
1:17:29adviser and all these things. And I just
1:17:31had this moment where I was thinking
1:17:32about moving to San Francisco and I was
1:17:34waiting in line to rent an apartment for
1:17:36$4,000. And it was like in this
1:17:38neighborhood I didn't really like and
1:17:39there was like a guy dying on the
1:17:41sidewalk next to me and you know the
1:17:43apartment was kind of junky and I was
1:17:44like what am I doing? What is this like
1:17:462012 or something? 2013. Yeah. Uh 2012
1:17:502013. Yeah. Okay. And I had this moment.
1:17:53I was literally standing in line and I
1:17:55just thought, "Okay, I'm done with this.
1:17:56I'm going back." And the whole time I
1:17:58had kept my place in Tokyo kind of as
1:18:00like this like, you know, tether, you
1:18:02know, to the to the to to where I had
1:18:04been. And the cost was so low. I mean,
1:18:06my rent, you know, I basically never
1:18:07paid more than $600 700 rent in my life
1:18:09in Tokyo. And so the $600 rent over
1:18:11there was a rounding error. It's like,
1:18:13okay, if you're making $30,000 a month,
1:18:15it's like I can pay that. And I was
1:18:16renting it out to a friend the whole
1:18:17time. Anyway, it was I could go back
1:18:19very easily. And uh I just had this this
1:18:21epiphany where I was like, "Okay, I'm
1:18:22going to work on books and I wanted to
1:18:25commit." During uh 2011, my father died
1:18:28and I had to go bury him. It was this
1:18:31kind of complicated set of circumstances
1:18:32where he had moved to North Carolina
1:18:35when I was a teenager and uh he had
1:18:38moved with his like mother and his
1:18:39sister and brother-in-law and they all
1:18:41died instantly like within like 3 or 4
1:18:43years. So he was alone in the woods in
1:18:45North Carolina and his family was small
1:18:47to begin with and there were no
1:18:49relatives left alive when he died. And
1:18:53uh so I get this call in 2011. I just
1:18:56got into Palo Alto. We were in the
1:18:58middle of crazy work. You know, I'd
1:19:00replaced alcohol with like mega work
1:19:02work mania. Uh working, you know,
1:19:04morning to night and trying to ship this
1:19:07Yeah. Yeah. I know you're you're so
1:19:09surprised. try to ship this iPhone app
1:19:11and uh and my dad dies in the middle of
1:19:14that and I'm like god damn it dad like
1:19:15bad timing. Um you know it was basically
1:19:18like being called if someone had picked
1:19:21a random person out of the phone book it
1:19:23couldn't have been more of a stranger to
1:19:24me than this guy by this point. So I was
1:19:26like, "Oh, hey, come to North Carolina
1:19:28to a town you don't know and bury the
1:19:30stranger." You know, I I went out there
1:19:32and I rushed through it all. And at the
1:19:35same time, even though I rushed through
1:19:36it all, there were moments of incredible
1:19:38profoundity that I didn't get to sit
1:19:40with. And I was kind of rushing through
1:19:42it and and I was like, "Okay, at some
1:19:44point I have to go back to that." And
1:19:46around it was around that time, 2012 or
1:19:47so, I got the a McDow writing uh
1:19:49fellowship. I was really lucky. I
1:19:51applied randomly uh to McDow to get a
1:19:53writing uh scholarship and to do a a
1:19:56residency there. And McDow is the oldest
1:19:58writing residency in the country. And I
1:20:01mean, it's just incredible. Have you
1:20:02ever heard of McDow? I've heard of it. I
1:20:04don't know much about it, though. It's
1:20:05in it's in New Hampshire. It's been
1:20:06around for 120 30 years. I mean, it's
1:20:09just idilic. And it's, you know, you're
1:20:12there with Booker Award winners,
1:20:13national book award winners, you know,
1:20:14like, oh, this person has played with
1:20:16Stevie Wonder. This composer's, you
1:20:17know, written for, it's just the top of
1:20:19the top. And I somehow snuck in and
1:20:21again that ratcheting up that little
1:20:23ratcheting up and and I went there and
1:20:25the thing I decided okay I need to work
1:20:26on is I'm going to sit with my dad for I
1:20:30was there for 6 weeks basically let me
1:20:32sit with this story and work on that for
1:20:346 weeks and that was that was pretty
1:20:36important and then feeling that and
1:20:39feeling like okay this is the path that
1:20:41my heart feels pulled towards which
1:20:43wasn't building more technology stuff.
1:20:46It was really great. As a teenager, I
1:20:47had this fantasy of going to Silicon
1:20:48Valley and doing something. And then
1:20:50when I was 29, 30, I had the ability to
1:20:52go out and not only do it, but do it at
1:20:54like one of the hottest companies with
1:20:56some of the most kind, compassionate,
1:20:57talented people I'd ever met. And to
1:20:59feel like I could stand toe-to-toe with
1:21:01all these mega talented A-list people in
1:21:04that world and touch it and feel like,
1:21:07okay, I I can do this and now I know I
1:21:09don't have to do this. Yeah. A couple
1:21:12reflections. Yeah.
1:21:14On the one hand, I was rooting for
1:21:16Flipboard. Like this felt like the first
1:21:18app that was actually built for the
1:21:20iPad. Like, oh, this is this is like an
1:21:22elegant way to like consume the things
1:21:25that I want to consume. I wanted it to
1:21:28succeed. It Do I have you to blame for
1:21:31why this thing didn't work out? No, you
1:21:33have me to blame because I quit. Okay,
1:21:35that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm
1:21:37saying. Exactly. You know, so part of me
1:21:39wishes you'd stayed so this could I
1:21:41could now be enjoying my content in that
1:21:43way. Um, and you know, from everything I
1:21:46understand, Ev Williams is a wonderful
1:21:48guy and, you know, amidst all of those
1:21:50sort of iconic Silicon Valley pioneers,
1:21:53he's actually we we actually have him
1:21:54booked. He's coming in. I think we're
1:21:56trying to get a date to have him come in
1:21:58because he's got this new thing, Mosy,
1:22:00you know, about like connections,
1:22:01gatherings. I've always thought he's a
1:22:03really interesting person. Uh but on the
1:22:05flip side, the way I look at or
1:22:08interpret the story you just told is
1:22:10somebody who really got clear on what
1:22:13their values were. And you can't do that
1:22:15unless you value yourself. Like you had
1:22:18grown to a point where that level of
1:22:20self-esteem was sufficient to resist the
1:22:24temptation, you know, like a lot of
1:22:26money, a lot of like this is where
1:22:27everyone was going at that time. like
1:22:29all the incentives were pulling you in
1:22:31that direction, but you were able to
1:22:34honor that voice within you that
1:22:36realized like there was a different path
1:22:38for you that was would be more honoring
1:22:40of who you actually were rather than um
1:22:43the the mask that you could adorn that
1:22:46would be rewarded, you know, in our
1:22:48culture. For sure. And when I was at
1:22:50Flipboard every weekend, I would book a
1:22:52hotel in the city and I would just go up
1:22:54there Friday night and I get late
1:22:55checkout on Sunday and I would just
1:22:57write from Friday night till Sunday.
1:23:00That's better than just drinking in your
1:23:01hotel room for three days straight.
1:23:02That's
1:23:04that's the other version. Sparkling
1:23:06water. I drank so much sparkling water.
1:23:08But yeah, it was just sparkling water.
1:23:10But no, so I was even in the middle of
1:23:12it all, I was like protecting this thing
1:23:14that I had kind of cultivated throughout
1:23:16my 20s and was trying not to get pulled
1:23:19in these other directions and to keep
1:23:21those values uh clear and apparent. But
1:23:23what really made it easy to make that
1:23:24decision was I looked around my life and
1:23:26everyone in my life that I loved that I
1:23:28had the deepest connections to, even
1:23:29being able to work at Flipboard, all of
1:23:31that was connected to writing. All of
1:23:32that was connected to being, you know,
1:23:35honest with myself and focusing on the
1:23:37things that I wanted to that I felt the
1:23:39need to focus on. And, you know, like
1:23:41people like um Kevin Kelly uh who has
1:23:45become one of the most important people
1:23:46in my life probably. uh he'll be be
1:23:48really embarrassed to hear that. But
1:23:49like you know Kevin is such a dear
1:23:51friend and we met actually I met Kevin
1:23:54two days after I buried my dad and I I
1:23:56rushed through burying my dad in order
1:23:59to get to the event in New York to give
1:24:01a talk because that year I moved to Palo
1:24:03Alto. I gave I don't know like 10 or 15
1:24:05talks around the world. I was just like
1:24:06suddenly being invited to do these
1:24:08things and I and again this scarcity
1:24:10mindset which plagued me throughout my
1:24:12entire life. Scarcity scarcity scarcity
1:24:15no value no value no value. they're
1:24:16going to find out that you're a fraud.
1:24:18This is all going to go away. We have to
1:24:19say yes to all these things. And so I
1:24:20had this thing in in New York with
1:24:22O'Reilly Media. And I I like literally
1:24:25like basically all but like threw my dad
1:24:27in the in the ground, you know? It was
1:24:29like I was like, "We got to, you know,
1:24:31I'm talking with the priest. I'm like,
1:24:32we got to get this going fast." He's
1:24:33like, "When do you need?" I'm like,
1:24:33"Tomorrow. We need to have this happen."
1:24:35He's like, "What?" I'm like, "Hey, we
1:24:36just got to get this done." And uh I you
1:24:38know, I got to New York. I was on stage.
1:24:40Another good scene in the biopic, by the
1:24:42way. Yeah. And I gave a I gave a a talk
1:24:44on stage and I got this email right
1:24:47after and it was from Kevin Kelly and he
1:24:49was like, "Hey, I I liked uh I like the
1:24:51things you're saying about publishing uh
1:24:53on stage there and I was like, who is
1:24:55that?" I didn't know who he was and I
1:24:56asked a friend. I was like, "Should I
1:24:57talk to this guy?" And he's like, "Kevin
1:24:59Kelly?" Yeah. Yeah. I talked to Kevin
1:25:00Kelly and and I was like, "Okay, hey,
1:25:02I'm uh I'm out back, you know, come say
1:25:04hello." And he came over and he was
1:25:05like, "This, you know, this tiny guy
1:25:06looks like he's Amish. He's got he's a
1:25:08gnome. He's a little gnome. Amish
1:25:09gnome." And he goes, "Oh, yeah. So, what
1:25:11publishing tool should I be? I was like,
1:25:13who is this character? And he just
1:25:14started inviting me uh to come take
1:25:17walks in Pacifica. You know, we'd walk
1:25:19along the coast. So, this is this is
1:25:20where the walks began cuz we've done an
1:25:22entire podcast. We haven't talked about
1:25:24walking at all yet. Sorry. No, it's
1:25:27good. This is the way we do it. Uh this
1:25:30is where the walks began. Kevin, this is
1:25:32the anti-clickbait. You know, we're like
1:25:34we're going to delay satisfaction on the
1:25:37subject of walking until an hour and a
1:25:39half in. But go ahead. So it was Kevin
1:25:40who was the inception point which and he
1:25:43kind of has a history of walking and you
1:25:45know it's kind of his thing. And you've
1:25:46gone on to do these like walk-in talks
1:25:48with him right all over the world. Yeah.
1:25:50In fact Kevin and I have done four of
1:25:53them in the last 15 months which is a
1:25:55crazy pace for us. But Kevin Kevin has a
1:25:57death clock on his computer. So he's
1:26:00looking at Kevin every day is like
1:26:02looking at how many hours of life he has
1:26:03left I think. And so so he's like Craig
1:26:06I want I want to do more than the
1:26:08pressure on you. clock's different, but
1:26:10like like it might be the same clock.
1:26:12You know, we don't know. We don't know.
1:26:14But uh but I I appreciate it uh his zeal
1:26:17for doing these things. But Kevin and I
1:26:19started putting these together about 8
1:26:20years ago where we invite 6 to eight
1:26:23people to walk with us somewhere around
1:26:25the world for a week and we walk for 7
1:26:29days basically and it's about 100k 120k.
1:26:32The ideal is about 20k a day. That feels
1:26:34really good. It's like just enough to
1:26:35move your body. you can have a lot of
1:26:37conversations, but you can still stop
1:26:38and see things along the way and take
1:26:39breaks and stuff. Um, and then every
1:26:41night we have a Jeffersonian dinner. Uh,
1:26:43so it's one topic, one table, one
1:26:45conversation. And Kevin is great cuz
1:26:47he's such an elder aura. Like his vibe
1:26:49is just this like you don't want to
1:26:50offend Kevin. You know, I find uh people
1:26:52won't say like offensive things around
1:26:54Kevin and then Kevin will be gone and
1:26:55then they'll say crazy things to me. I'm
1:26:56like, you know, it's like just cuz
1:26:58Kevin's gone doesn't mean you can say
1:26:59crazy things to me. But he he kind of
1:27:01maintains this sort of like elder
1:27:03statesman atmosphere and so everyone
1:27:05plays along and we have these three-hour
1:27:08discussions every night about all sorts
1:27:10of different topics and every day
1:27:11someone picks a new topic and these have
1:27:14become Kevin has said these are are some
1:27:16of the best weeks of his life and so to
1:27:18be part of that for a guy like Kevin
1:27:20Kelly who's lived the life he's lived is
1:27:22incredible and he is a tractor beam for
1:27:25interesting people right so I would
1:27:26imagine the people that show up for
1:27:28those walks are are you know already
1:27:30loaded to bear with all kinds of
1:27:32insights and amazing experiences and and
1:27:35we started doing those and you know I
1:27:37invite half the people and he invites
1:27:38half the people
1:27:40and spending 7
1:27:43days almost 24 hours a day you know
1:27:45you're like 15 16 hours a day with these
1:27:47people where you're walking and you
1:27:49you're walking in twos and you keep kind
1:27:50of moving between little groups and
1:27:51stuff and then at night you have these
1:27:53really profound dinner conversations to
1:27:55the point where I mean there has not
1:27:57been a walk and talk where people aren't
1:27:58in tears you know it's there at some
1:28:00point people are are sobbing. Um to have
1:28:03these discussions and see how people's
1:28:04minds work and all the discussions are
1:28:07done with an incredible amount of yo-yo,
1:28:09generosity, uh empathy. Um and so to
1:28:13witness that now for me, we've done
1:28:15eight or nine of them, which means, you
1:28:17know, two two and a half months of my
1:28:19life have been spent around tables with
1:28:22these incredible humans having these
1:28:24deep conversations. Again, just creating
1:28:26in my mind all these archetypes for what
1:28:28could be. And you spend seven days with
1:28:30someone and that is a profoundly
1:28:31different experience than just getting
1:28:33coffee with someone. And so to be able
1:28:34to or laying on a a lounge chair by a
1:28:37pool. Exactly. And the walking is
1:28:39critical. That walking gives purpose to
1:28:41it. It moves the mind in a certain way.
1:28:43Without the walking, it doesn't work.
1:28:44And you walk into in. So we've done
1:28:47Katzwalds a couple times. We walked uh
1:28:50Thailand uh Chiang Mai from the
1:28:52mountains down back into Mai. We've
1:28:53walked in Bali. We walked across the the
1:28:56island. Uh, and that one was the most
1:28:59intense. That one I we'll never do
1:29:00something like that again. But every day
1:29:02we'd get to a basically bamboo platform
1:29:05in the forest and it was 10 of us and we
1:29:07all just slept next to each other on
1:29:08this bamboo platform. Wow. For do that
1:29:10did that for a week. That said, the Bali
1:29:13chat group is the most active chat group
1:29:14uh of all the WhatsApp groups from all
1:29:16the walk-in talks. Well, you know,
1:29:17discomfort has a way of bonding people
1:29:20together. But but uh we just did Spain
1:29:23again. The commino de was amazing. We've
1:29:26done Japan a couple times. Um, but it is
1:29:29it is one of the one of one of the I
1:29:32think the greatest things in my life.
1:29:34Again, ratcheting up sense of selfworth
1:29:35and then being able to connect with
1:29:36these people um that I've grown to many
1:29:40of them have become just such close
1:29:41friends, people I love. It's one thing
1:29:44to do these walks as a as a group and as
1:29:48a exercise in connection and idea
1:29:52sharing etc. It's altogether something
1:29:54different to decide I'm going to go on
1:29:57these solo walks and I'm going to go
1:29:59great distances like maybe there's a
1:30:01light dusting of the alcoholism thing in
1:30:03here like like you know this is what I
1:30:05would do you know it's like totally I
1:30:07decide I'm going to like run them and
1:30:09swim that you know like push my body but
1:30:12the idea of slowing down and just being
1:30:15with yourself in the most undistracted
1:30:18way for extended periods of time as a
1:30:22challenge as a as a way of reclaiming um
1:30:26your attention, which is something
1:30:28you've written a lot about. Um reckoning
1:30:31with yourself, like the the the hardest
1:30:34walk is the, you know, the walk inward,
1:30:36right? And giving yourself space to to
1:30:38do that. So, is that like a a byproduct
1:30:41of having these nourishing experiences
1:30:43with Kevin and these groups or it's sort
1:30:45of in parallel? Um the solo walking
1:30:48stuff happened from another mentor that
1:30:51is just a dear friend who accidentally
1:30:52became a mentor. This guy John McBride
1:30:54who I write about in right the book of
1:30:56John I want to hear all about the book
1:30:58of John. the book. But John I met almost
1:31:0120 years ago now through art world
1:31:03connections cuz I had written a book
1:31:05about the Tokyo art world and we got
1:31:07connected and we it was one of these
1:31:08things where we sat down for uh
1:31:10breakfast together and then we didn't
1:31:12stand up until 5:00 p.m. It was like one
1:31:14of those like you know falling into just
1:31:16infinite conversation and just this
1:31:18almost like pherommonal like deep
1:31:20connection again like almost like the
1:31:21Brian thing as like kids but having that
1:31:23as an adult is you know it's it's kind
1:31:25of rare. And then we just started doing
1:31:27he'd invite me, oh I'm going to go stay
1:31:28in James Charles's house of light with
1:31:30some artists. Do you want to come? And
1:31:31we started doing these things together.
1:31:32And then John had grew up essentially in
1:31:36Japan. He came when he was 16, 17 on a
1:31:38scholarship, went to Japanese
1:31:40university, is totally fluent. Um, you
1:31:42know, wrote his,
1:31:46uh, graduation thesis in Japanese by
1:31:48hand, that sort of thing. And, um, when
1:31:51he was studying, he started doing all
1:31:52these old walks. So there's the Tokaido,
1:31:55there's the Nakasendo, there's Matso
1:31:57Basho, the Haiku poet who did the
1:31:59Okonohoosomichi, the narrow road to the
1:32:01north. And John as a teenager started
1:32:04walking all these alone cuz he wanted to
1:32:06understand the connection between
1:32:08literature and history. And so he's
1:32:09taking notes and his literature
1:32:11professors kind of guiding him. And so
1:32:13John had been doing that and then he
1:32:15sort of retired in his early 40s. He ran
1:32:17Sky TV in Japan. So launched it with
1:32:19Rupert Murdoch. He was a CEO when he was
1:32:21like 33. So he's one of these wondered
1:32:24sort of human beings and uh kind of
1:32:26retired and then at 50 he was sort of
1:32:28looking for I don't know something to go
1:32:31back to or reflect on and he started
1:32:32doing these walks again and he started
1:32:34inviting me. He's like, "Hey, I'm gonna"
1:32:35because I was, you know, I was writing
1:32:37my book about my dad, which and that, by
1:32:40the way, never came out. It never became
1:32:41a thing. But, you know, I was writing, I
1:32:42was freelance. I had time. And John was
1:32:45like, "Hey, come walk with me in, you
1:32:46know, Kumano Cotto, you know, this this
1:32:49path called Kumano Cotto." And I was
1:32:50like, I what's that? And so, he started
1:32:52opening up this world, the world that's
1:32:54in this book. John 100% opened up to me.
1:32:59And we started going on these walks
1:33:00together, he and I, and his
1:33:04fluency and his yo-yo, his abundance as
1:33:08a human being blew me away. Like Kevin
1:33:12and John share a lot of that abundance
1:33:14in different ways. And we'd, you know,
1:33:16be walking these old pilgrimage paths on
1:33:19the Ki Peninsula, which is the peninsula
1:33:20south of uh Kyoto and Osaka. the
1:33:23dangling
1:33:25penis as it's as it's uh it's the moist
1:33:28belovingly referred to in Japan. The
1:33:30moist dangling penis of the honchu.
1:33:33Yeah, if you look at it that way. And um
1:33:35we'd be in the countryside walking,
1:33:38talking to farmers, talking to in
1:33:39owners. And I started observing John
1:33:42just I'd stand back and I'd watch how he
1:33:46inscaled everyone we connected with with
1:33:50language. Because in Japanese, you can
1:33:51kind of elevate people through the the
1:33:52the the verb conjugation and the word
1:33:55choice and through his language, through
1:33:58his historical knowledge, through his
1:34:01presence, just the way he held himself
1:34:03uh to everyone where again it was no
1:34:05sense of I'm above you, I'm looking
1:34:07down, even though it's a random, you
1:34:09know, could be a tomato farmer in the
1:34:10middle of nowhere. total elevation of of
1:34:13who he was speaking with and watching
1:34:15those people flip over this kind of
1:34:17swing set in disbelief because there's
1:34:18like initially it's like oh my god a
1:34:20white guy this big lumbering dude he's
1:34:22like 6'2 and you know big big guy um you
1:34:25know John lumbers up and you know you
1:34:27can see them freaking out oh my god how
1:34:28am I going to communicate with this
1:34:29person and then within 2 seconds they
1:34:31realize oh he's totally fluent and then
1:34:33within 5 seconds they realize oh my god
1:34:35this is a really special human being and
1:34:37then within 30 seconds they are willing
1:34:39to do anything for you know, it was
1:34:42like, "Do you want to live with me? Do
1:34:43you want to marry my daughters? Like, do
1:34:44you want like do you want tea?" Like
1:34:46anything. I mean, just just to watch
1:34:48John do that. And again, it's it's this
1:34:51archetypes and being present for
1:34:54archetypes and bearing witness to
1:34:56archetypes in action is something that
1:34:59Brian and I were bereft of, right, as
1:35:01growing up as kids. We had none of that.
1:35:02No, like I I I always say I say in the
1:35:04book like, man, if we just had 10
1:35:06minutes with someone like John when we
1:35:07were kids, like how different could it
1:35:09have been to have just witnessed John
1:35:11doing this for 10 minutes? And so I, you
1:35:14know, eternally grateful to John for
1:35:17inviting me on these walks. You know, I
1:35:18was basically 33, 34 when we started
1:35:20doing these and witnessing this and then
1:35:23from that cuz I had the language skills,
1:35:25but I didn't know how to deploy them.
1:35:27And I, you know, I my my whole thing is
1:35:29like I've got this voice in the back of
1:35:30my head ready to fight everybody. You
1:35:32know, it's like that's just how it was
1:35:35where we came from. You always have to
1:35:36be ready to fight. And if you didn't
1:35:38fight, you were going to be diminished.
1:35:40You were going to be snuffed out. And
1:35:42that voice is still there in my head all
1:35:44the time, you know. And so if I if I
1:35:46perceive someone to be a bully and I can
1:35:48be overly sensitive about this, I'm
1:35:50ready. Like, oh, let's go to the mat,
1:35:52you know? And John didn't have any of
1:35:54that. He comes from a place of total
1:35:55abundance. Well, he was the mentor that
1:35:58you needed your entire life, right? He's
1:36:00your Mr. Miyagi. He really like like if
1:36:04you inverted Mr. Miyagi, you get John.
1:36:06Whatever the opposite. Yeah, exactly.
1:36:07And we should say you keep bringing up
1:36:10Brian, but for the audience, the book is
1:36:12structured as basically an elongated,
1:36:16you know, uh, letter. Yeah. To Brian,
1:36:19like, hey, I'm going on this journey.
1:36:21like you're you're reconciling with your
1:36:22grief and your guilt and all of these
1:36:25emotions, but you're doing it in the
1:36:26context of like sharing your experiences
1:36:29in a letter to this lost friend, right?
1:36:32Yeah. The book opens just, you know,
1:36:34hey, let me be begin for you, you know,
1:36:37Brian. And yeah, the whole thing kind of
1:36:39ends up being this letter to him like if
1:36:42I could talk to him today, what would I
1:36:44want to tell him about and explain, you
1:36:46know, and and being able to like kind of
1:36:48think back on where I've gotten to in
1:36:50Japan to be walking alone 700
1:36:53kilometers, you know, talking to cafe
1:36:57owners, smoking cigarettes with these
1:36:59like jazz cafe people. Um, to be able to
1:37:03get to that place from where we were and
1:37:05just go, "Brian, man, look at this. This
1:37:07is ridiculous. You know, it's like
1:37:09there's one one passage in there where I
1:37:11talk about having taken taken Jeff Bezos
1:37:13on a walk, you know? It's like he he
1:37:14joined one of these walks randomly. I
1:37:16mean, it's just so surreal to have gone
1:37:18from where I was in the world
1:37:21to Jeff reaching out and being like,
1:37:23"Hey, I want to join you. You know, I
1:37:24want to do a Kevin and Craig walk, you
1:37:26know, and um and the sur the surrealness
1:37:29of that." And I think writing this to
1:37:32Brian helped me contextualize a lot of
1:37:34that in a way that would have been
1:37:35difficult otherwise. Right. Right. It's
1:37:38a vehicle to express everything you want
1:37:41to say in a shortorthhand because you
1:37:43realize like you realize the context of
1:37:45it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So the book of
1:37:48John like what tell me this like
1:37:50worldview theory then like you're
1:37:52observing this charismatic person like
1:37:55insourcing people. I love that word. I'm
1:37:57so glad you use that. Um, but if you had
1:37:59to canonize it, you know, what what is
1:38:01that? How do you how do you articulate
1:38:03that? So, the book of John is this thing
1:38:05in this book that I talk about. So,
1:38:06John, you know, like we w we've done I
1:38:10don't even know how how many walks
1:38:11together we've done, but we've probably
1:38:12traveled together 24 hours a day,
1:38:14sleeping in the same room, you know,
1:38:16like we're basically siblings. Like I
1:38:18like he doesn't want to be called a dad.
1:38:20Like, you know, so we travel together
1:38:21and people are always like, "Oh, dad,
1:38:23father and son." He's 20 years older
1:38:24than me, you know, father and son. Oh,
1:38:26that's so cute. And he gets like really
1:38:27upset. and he's like, "I'm not his dad."
1:38:28You know, uh like not not actually
1:38:30upset, but just kind of but like it
1:38:32really is sort of siblingish, you know?
1:38:34That's what it feels like. And so we've
1:38:37spent 6 months, I would say, of our
1:38:39lives together, which is I don't think
1:38:40I've spent that much time with any other
1:38:41human being outside of childhood. And so
1:38:44John, even when I'm even when we're not
1:38:46walking together, I'm walking alone.
1:38:47He's like he can see me on Find My
1:38:49Friends or whatever. And he's always
1:38:50knows where I am and he knows the roots
1:38:52I'm walking. Uh he's walked them 50
1:38:54times. And so every day he's emailing me
1:38:58like basically PDFs of like sections of
1:39:00books that he's written about where I'm
1:39:03going to be that day. Um even though
1:39:05he's never published any of these books,
1:39:06he's he gives a lot of lectures and
1:39:07stuff. And so every day I'm getting like
1:39:09this download of like, oh, Craig, hey, I
1:39:11see you're next to this shrine that, you
1:39:12know, here's the history of like, you
1:39:14know, and so I call this the book of
1:39:15John. I've gotten thousands of pages
1:39:17from John over the years kind of like
1:39:19this angel on my shoulder looking at
1:39:21where, okay, this is where you're going
1:39:22to be today. these are some cool things
1:39:23to see, you know. And so that's one part
1:39:27of the book of John. But then the other
1:39:28part is just that that in my mind, this
1:39:31voice of John and like having borne
1:39:34witness to him be such a a human of
1:39:38compassion and abundance and empathy. Uh
1:39:41he's he's he's going to, you know, sort
1:39:43of blush at all this, but like it's
1:39:45true. He really he really is this person
1:39:47of yoyu, of incredible yo-yo. I keep
1:39:50that in mind all the time. I mean,
1:39:51anytime I find my my my my mind veering
1:39:53to that scarcity place and that voice of
1:39:57fighting, of anger, kind of like being
1:39:59like, "Hey, man." Like brushes off his
1:40:00like, "Hey, we're ready to go whenever
1:40:02you want to go." I kind of like refer
1:40:04back to the the the aura of the book of
1:40:05John, which is like just putting put in
1:40:07a little more energy, assume the best,
1:40:09try to elevate that person on the other
1:40:11side before you go to that place of
1:40:13scarcity. He gives you the facts, but
1:40:15it's really a vibe check. It totally is
1:40:17vibe. That's what it is, right? And so
1:40:19so what is the book of Craig though?
1:40:21Because it's got it's got to you know
1:40:24have it have its departure points from I
1:40:26know you're not you're not a strict
1:40:28constructionist the book of John. The
1:40:30book of Craig is is a super super in
1:40:33progress. I mean uh it it is less
1:40:38history focused like that's just not my
1:40:39thing. I'm not I'm not able to retain
1:40:42facts. Um I en I like history in the
1:40:45sense of giving me a little bit of
1:40:46context. But for me, what I get out of
1:40:48these walks and the reason why I don't
1:40:50do nature walks, why all my walks are
1:40:52like village to village or they have to
1:40:53pass through villages. Um, and that's
1:40:55why with the Kumano Codto, the the walk
1:40:57of the Kumanoka that I like the most is
1:40:59called the EI. And that's a walk that
1:41:02few people do, but it is the walk that
1:41:05it touches mountains, it touches the
1:41:07coast, it touches logging villages,
1:41:09fishing villages. You feel this kind of
1:41:11salt of the earthiness of people all
1:41:13along that walk. And so for me, as I'm
1:41:16doing these walks, I'm I want to talk to
1:41:18as many people. I want to bear witness
1:41:20to as much life being lived as possible.
1:41:22And for me, I'm just collecting like a
1:41:25weird squirrel, like little archetypes
1:41:27of of possibility. This is what life can
1:41:30be like. This is what life can be like.
1:41:31This is what life can be like. Oh, this
1:41:32is you can have a good life in this
1:41:33context. Oh, this in this context you
1:41:35can have a good life. And for me, those
1:41:37stories, the conversations I have with
1:41:39people, um that is is what it is for me.
1:41:43It's bearing witness to possibilities of
1:41:45how to live and how to live well.
1:41:48What would you say is the the the core
1:41:51um takeaway or like thesis that you've
1:41:55extracted from these many experiences?
1:41:57The through line. Well, I mean, I really
1:42:00do believe
1:42:01that social safety nets create an
1:42:04abundance that allows for the most
1:42:07interesting lives to be lived because if
1:42:09you know you're going to be okay, then
1:42:11you have the the calmness and the well,
1:42:14you can take risks. Yeah. You can you
1:42:16can you can you have more freedom to be
1:42:18yourself and to do the things you want
1:42:19to do. So, I've done a lot of these big
1:42:23kind of historical countryside walks and
1:42:25but I've also done kind of iterations.
1:42:27I've been like, "Oh, well, how can we do
1:42:28walks differently?" So, one thing I did
1:42:30was I picked 10 what you call like
1:42:32flyover cities, like Japanese flyover.
1:42:34So, places you would like never go to
1:42:36necessarily because there's nothing
1:42:38particularly special about these cities,
1:42:40but I I kind of picked them from
1:42:42Hokkaido all the way down to Kagoshima.
1:42:44And I tried to walk 50 km in each city.
1:42:47That was my goal. So, I'd go to them.
1:42:48I'd spend three nights and I try to walk
1:42:5050k. And if you try to walk 50k, you're
1:42:53going to touch almost every street in
1:42:55the city and you're gonna end up talking
1:42:56to people and all this stuff. And I
1:42:59started in Hakodate. I went to Morioa,
1:43:01Sakata, Matsumoto, Suduga, Onamichi,
1:43:05Yamaguchi,
1:43:07um, Karatu in Saga, uh, in Eime. I went
1:43:12to a city, uh, and then I went ended in
1:43:14Kagoshima. So I went to these 10 cities
1:43:17and I just started talking with folks
1:43:19and most of these places are very
1:43:21countryside and most of the Japanese
1:43:23countryside is
1:43:25depopulating. Shudder, it's called
1:43:27shutai. So shutddter streets. So all the
1:43:29shopping streets are just shuttered. The
1:43:30shops are all closed. You don't see kids
1:43:32anywhere. You don't see independent
1:43:34businesses thriving.
1:43:36And in doing these 10 cities that I I
1:43:39kind of picked almost at random, one of
1:43:41these cities in particular,
1:43:43Morioa, I went and it was just abundance
1:43:47upon abundance. If it just freaked me
1:43:50out. I was like, why has literally no
1:43:52one ever said to me in 23 years by that
1:43:56point, you should go to Morioa. It's
1:43:58cool. It was just cafes, amazing cafes
1:44:01and bakeries, and the cityscape was like
1:44:03wonderful to walk. And there's this huge
1:44:05park in the middle that the castle used
1:44:06to sit on. And there's 16th generation
1:44:08iron workers building like doing these
1:44:10amazing pots. And like the 15th
1:44:12generation was the current guy's mom,
1:44:14you know, who's like this super cool
1:44:15like strong, you know, woman. And I was
1:44:16just like, why has no one talked about
1:44:18this place? And so a couple years ago,
1:44:20New York Times came to me. I write for
1:44:22them freelance sometimes. They came to
1:44:23me and said, "Hey, we're doing our 52 uh
1:44:26places you should go to this year for
1:44:282023. Uh do you have somewhere to
1:44:30recommend?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure.
1:44:32I like Morioa. Super cool. Let me just
1:44:33recommend." and you kind of write this
1:44:35little paragraph. It was probably like
1:44:37200 words you write. I submit it. I'm
1:44:40like, "Guys, this really is a great
1:44:42city." Like, truly, please, like, I hope
1:44:44you consider it for the list. And they
1:44:45don't tell you where it's going to come
1:44:46in in the list. And they go, "Okay, it's
1:44:49going to be on the list." You So, you're
1:44:50like, "Okay, it'll be, you know, it'll
1:44:51be 30, 40 out of 52, something like
1:44:53that." And the list comes out in January
1:44:552023 and number one is London because
1:44:58the the queen had died and there's like
1:45:00you know all all this stuff was
1:45:01happening or the there's a coronation
1:45:03happening and then number two was
1:45:05Morioa.
1:45:07I didn't know it was number two. I knew
1:45:08that you wrote that article and that it
1:45:09blew up and it created like a whole
1:45:11thing. It was two
1:45:14and everyone in Japan just went it was
1:45:18like the record scratched across the
1:45:20needle scratched across the record
1:45:21across the whole country and they were
1:45:23just like what like London then Morio
1:45:25what is the population of this this city
1:45:28it's like a hundred thousand a couple
1:45:30hundred thousand I mean it's not like
1:45:32it's not like you know uh Podunk you
1:45:34know Mississippi or whatever it's like
1:45:36there are people there they're erecting
1:45:38statues to you in the in the town square
1:45:40well it was It was it was crazy because
1:45:43uh they were everyone was in shock and
1:45:45then this one guy in the city who runs
1:45:47this old soba shop he just went this is
1:45:50insane like we we need to use this to
1:45:52promote the city and he started pushing
1:45:54it he started reaching out to media
1:45:56contacts and was like hey he's like I
1:45:57think Craig speaks Japanese too like the
1:46:00guy who wrote this article and so then
1:46:02suddenly it was just like I was in the
1:46:04middle of a giant a media figure in
1:46:06Japan yeah it went from I had literally
1:46:10never spen spoken on TV or radio or
1:46:13anything before to I've now done like
1:46:16hundreds of TV shows and you know radio
1:46:19shows, newspapers, magazines,
1:46:21everything. And you know they invited me
1:46:22up there. They're like, "Hey, you should
1:46:24come up. The mayor wants to meet you."
1:46:25You know, and I'm just like, "Okay, this
1:46:26will be interesting. I can do like a
1:46:27follow-up piece to the New York Times
1:46:29like you know, how's Moroka doing?" And
1:46:31I thought, they didn't tell me anything.
1:46:34You know, I'm like, "I'm going to go
1:46:34into a little room like this, gonna
1:46:36shake the mayor's hand, be like, "Oh,
1:46:37you know, hey, nice to meet you. like
1:46:38let me know if I can help like you know
1:46:40use this to to the to your advantage
1:46:42please. And I walk in and they open the
1:46:46doors and it was like a scene from a
1:46:47movie. It was like just all like the
1:46:50like the whole thing it was just all
1:46:51giant like network TV cameras like you
1:46:53know rapid fire paparazzi like you know
1:46:56you know and I'm just like what the what
1:46:59is going on? I like haven't prepared a
1:47:00speech. I haven't prepared anything. You
1:47:03know they bamboozled me. They totally
1:47:04did the bamboozle on me. And so I walk
1:47:06in they lead me to the mayor. He's
1:47:08sitting on like a throne. And so like I
1:47:09sit next to him, you know, it was just
1:47:11it was just so ridiculous. And we shake
1:47:14hands and the mayor the mayor basically
1:47:16goes he's like, "Thanks, Craig. Uh,
1:47:18okay. I'm out of here. Uh, take it take
1:47:21it from here." And he just left me with
1:47:23all of this media, you know, and I I
1:47:26truly I had not prepared like a speech
1:47:28for these people. I hadn't prepared
1:47:29anything. And they start asking me
1:47:31questions and they're like, "Um,
1:47:33Modtoan, um, how do we, uh, solve
1:47:37poverty?" And I'm just like, "Guys,
1:47:40guys, I don't hold on." Like, I just
1:47:42think you have really good coffee shops.
1:47:44Like, I don't know how to solve poverty.
1:47:46I am so sorry. I think I'm not the guy
1:47:48you respected. Uh, but anyway, it was it
1:47:52was insane. Like I'd walk down the
1:47:53street, people would stop their car and
1:47:55scream
1:47:56out, you know, like I'd walk into a
1:47:59someone would take me to like a
1:48:00restaurant, everyone would stand up and
1:48:01start clapping and like buy me try to
1:48:03buy me drinks and stuff, you know, and
1:48:05and it was just, you know, being stopped
1:48:07on the street for selfies and like I
1:48:08mean it was just I was like, "Okay, this
1:48:10is how, you know, A-list celebrities
1:48:13feel everywhere they go in the world."
1:48:14And I could see like this would drive
1:48:16you insane. This would make you a crazy
1:48:17person if this like really happened at
1:48:19this level everywhere. Um, but it was
1:48:21funny and what I was able to do from it
1:48:23and the reason why I I said yes to all
1:48:25the media wasn't because I was like, "Oh
1:48:27my my ego wasn't like, "Oh my god,
1:48:28finally we've we've arrived and this is
1:48:30what we've been waiting for our whole
1:48:31life." It was zero. Absolute zero of
1:48:32that. And in fact, it was really
1:48:35difficult for me to do a lot of this
1:48:36stuff. But what I saw was a moral
1:48:38obligation to explain like why did I
1:48:40pick this city? And like these people
1:48:42were just dumbfounded like what do we do
1:48:44with with this now? And so I wanted them
1:48:45to get the most positive uh that they
1:48:48could rest from this as possible. And I
1:48:50felt a moral duty to explain to them,
1:48:52why is your city great? Like what's cool
1:48:54about it? Cuz they they they were all
1:48:55just like, why? Our city is boring. It's
1:48:57like a middle of nowhere, nothing town.
1:48:59And so going on a lot of these uh radio
1:49:02shows and TV shows, people be like, you
1:49:03know, what is it about Morioa that that
1:49:05you liked? And like, how many bowls of
1:49:07soba did you eat? Like that's what
1:49:08they're obsessed with. I was like, "They
1:49:10must have they must have the best
1:49:11noodles and or there's some secret there
1:49:14that you unlock." Yeah. And and and I my
1:49:16answer was national health insurance.
1:49:19That's what they've got. You know, it
1:49:20was like national health insurance
1:49:22combined with a little bit of good
1:49:24infrastructure. So the Shinkansen stop
1:49:26happens to be there. So that injects
1:49:28with a little bit of life. But just
1:49:30having cuz everything I loved about
1:49:32Morio was independent business. So it
1:49:34was this jazz place that's been doing
1:49:36Japanese jazz for 50 years. They were
1:49:39the progenitor of building a building a
1:49:42a a jazz cafe around Japanese jazz. They
1:49:44were the only one doing it and they got
1:49:46heckled for it and they just stuck to
1:49:48their guns, you know. And it was one of
1:49:49these things where there's a certain
1:49:51kind of business that can't exist in
1:49:52Tokyo cuz there's just too much
1:49:54influence. But just enough outside the
1:49:56city where the cost of living is really
1:49:58low where you're taken care of, you can
1:49:59have a family, you can run a small
1:50:00bookshop that becomes this community
1:50:02center. Modioa is just full of that. And
1:50:05that was what I loved about it. And this
1:50:07is what we all want on our main streets
1:50:10that has completely vanished from
1:50:12modernity. Yes. So, it is a city of Main
1:50:15Street. It's just every street you walk
1:50:17has there's a tatami maker. Here's a
1:50:19great bookshop. Here's another cafe.
1:50:21Here's a cafe that's been open for 55
1:50:22years. Here's one that's been open for
1:50:23three years. Here's oh, the daughter of
1:50:25this old one's opening a new one over
1:50:26here. You know, it's like there's this
1:50:28energy and community um that comes from
1:50:31this yo-yo, this abundance that is so
1:50:34heartening. And that's I think why I was
1:50:36so moved by it and it was difficult to
1:50:38explain to Japanese media because I'm
1:50:39like well I come from this traumatized
1:50:40place of scarcity you know it's like and
1:50:43I'm like saying this in media and I'm
1:50:45like going to a city like Morioa heals
1:50:48me. It's like literally healing me to
1:50:49walk the streets to feel this abundance
1:50:51to feel that this is possible cuz I'm
1:50:53collecting this archetype of you can
1:50:56live like this. You can have a city like
1:50:57this. What would it be like to be able
1:51:00to have a cool business and not live in
1:51:03fear of like never being able to pay the
1:51:05rent or pay the bill and just be able to
1:51:07like celebrate and enjoy it for what it
1:51:10is without thinking about like how it
1:51:12has to scale to 10 cities for sure. And
1:51:15so in Morio you've got one coffee guy
1:51:18who is revered all across the country.
1:51:20He was actually one of the first people
1:51:21to import I think it's called Probot. Uh
1:51:24it's like an it's like a classic German
1:51:26roaster machine, giant machine and he
1:51:28you know it's like he just got really
1:51:30into coffee and started doing this stuff
1:51:32and he was able to do it because rent
1:51:35was really low. No one was going to
1:51:37raise the rent on them and even after
1:51:38all this attention it's not like I've
1:51:40destroyed the city now. But I'm sure
1:51:42there was a profound economic impact to
1:51:45do you have a sense of of of like have
1:51:47they been able to tally? I mean I I the
1:51:50there's some estimates but it's probably
1:51:52somewhere around like 100 million plus
1:51:54of that's wild positive economic impact.
1:51:56So 200 words led to 100 million. So
1:52:00maybe they did say now we can move to
1:52:01Tokyo. That's the American the American
1:52:03thing was like now we can get out of
1:52:04here and go to Tokyo. But my my thing
1:52:07was like you know all these political
1:52:09groups were asking me to give talks at
1:52:10like rallies and stuff like that. I said
1:52:12no to everything. All I want to for me
1:52:14the most important um uh generation the
1:52:18most important demographic to speak to
1:52:20is teenagers and people in their early
1:52:2220s. And so I the biggest thing I wanted
1:52:25people to take away from this was for
1:52:26teenagers to feel pride in where they
1:52:28came from. And so you leave and then you
1:52:30think about coming back to builds to
1:52:31build on on this greatness that's
1:52:33already there. And so to me that was the
1:52:34most important thing. So talking to
1:52:35politicians in their 60s and 70s to me
1:52:38was pointless. That was just idiotic.
1:52:39even if they're going to pay. Well, I
1:52:41was like, I don't and also like you
1:52:42don't want to touch that world. But
1:52:44talking to young kids, talking to, you
1:52:46know, I'm happy to do that until I'm
1:52:48blue in the face. Another aspect of
1:52:51these walks is is connecting with I mean
1:52:54that's a story of of resilience to
1:52:58celebrate but there's this impermanence
1:53:00aspect like this peninsula is in decline
1:53:03and in decay and has had to suffer you
1:53:05know like you know all these was it like
1:53:09the hurricane that destroyed it you know
1:53:10like so there's like it's it's sort of
1:53:13littered with relics and wreckage that
1:53:16connects you with like the impermanence
1:53:18of all things right Yeah. And and and
1:53:22when you walk this, you're in this
1:53:23deeply reflective state where you're
1:53:25like reflecting on your own life and
1:53:28perhaps reflecting on the impermanence
1:53:30of all things as a result of what you're
1:53:31seeing and experiencing, but at the same
1:53:34time, you're like writing and you're
1:53:36like collecting all these knickknacks
1:53:37and you're, you know, curating and like,
1:53:39you know, so there's a there's a
1:53:41hoarding aspect to this. I like that. I
1:53:43like that description. It's kind of
1:53:44like, you know, in conflict with that
1:53:46with with that. Well, hoarding. Yeah.
1:53:48hoarding stories. Yeah. Uh but part of
1:53:50the hoarding element is you feel it uh
1:53:53disappearing so rapidly. So it's gone 10
1:53:56years from now. Most of these people I'm
1:53:58speaking to are dead. They're gone. The
1:54:00shops are gone. They're kisses. That's
1:54:02what they're called. These like cafes
1:54:03like there's there's nobody in them,
1:54:05right? When you're It's like existing
1:54:08for the few people who might come in.
1:54:11You know, they're regulars. Exactly. a
1:54:13few regulars who happen to still be
1:54:14alive and most of the time like the
1:54:16owners own the property so they don't
1:54:17have to worry about rent and they just
1:54:19go there you know but like in these
1:54:20really down and out economically
1:54:22depressed areas where it's been totally
1:54:25depopulated all the kids have gone to
1:54:26Nagagoya or Osaka for the jobs that's
1:54:28where the jobs are again it's this like
1:54:31you you get rid of the bluecollar
1:54:33opportunities you know a lot of the
1:54:34lumber a lot of the fishing has gone to
1:54:36China so these industries just aren't
1:54:38what they used to be and even on the
1:54:40peninsula I did a I went down for 10day
1:54:43photo shoot in February this year and
1:54:45you know I go to the the raw tuna market
1:54:47and I'm um they let me on the tuna boats
1:54:49it's 4 in the morning all the all the
1:54:50people working are Indonesian all
1:54:53Indonesian you can't find Japanese
1:54:54people who will work for this pay that
1:54:57makes it sustainable and even the
1:54:58Indonesians are having a hard time uh
1:55:01they're having a hard time finding them
1:55:03because Indonesia has come up
1:55:04economically so much in the last 20
1:55:06years 30 years that even for Indonesians
1:55:08it's like this isn't really enough pay
1:55:09so it's difficult so the jobs aren't
1:55:12And so you have this this really thin
1:55:14relic of a past culture, a past way of
1:55:17life um that truly we are we are
1:55:20witnessing it in real time wink out of
1:55:22existence. And so that that kind of
1:55:25hoarding desperation element of getting
1:55:27these stories, talking to these people,
1:55:28I think just comes from the fact that I
1:55:29know in 10 years it's all gone. Mhm. Um,
1:55:31and I if I can just capture uh a small
1:55:35element of what was through the stories
1:55:37and you know doing these sketches
1:55:39essentially of people like the
1:55:40okonomiyaki lady you know who's you know
1:55:42never been on the shinkansen before and
1:55:44then she tells me about her one ride on
1:55:45the shinkansen you know it's like um I
1:55:48want to capture that because it it
1:55:50really will disappear. There's an
1:55:52endurance aspect to this also, right? A
1:55:55suffering and um these are these are
1:55:59difficult feats. You're going for, you
1:56:01know, hundreds of miles and you know
1:56:03many many many days. Uh and also the
1:56:07aestheticism of it like there's no
1:56:09iPhone. You're not listening to podcasts
1:56:11and music. you're you're on a you know a
1:56:13very restricted information diet and
1:56:16it's intended to be you know sort of a
1:56:20semivasa moving meditation experience
1:56:23for sure. Yeah. I started setting these
1:56:25rules again almost like intuitively like
1:56:28what if we set these boundaries and how
1:56:29would that feel? No social media, no
1:56:32news. So I'm not allowed to like look at
1:56:34the New York Times or anything or read
1:56:36other news sites. Um no music, no
1:56:38podcast. basically nothing that
1:56:40teleports you out of the moment, which
1:56:41so much of what the phone is is a
1:56:43essentially a teleportation device out
1:56:45of discomfort, small discomforts, you
1:56:47know, so you're on the subway commuting.
1:56:49Oh, I don't want to be on the subway
1:56:50train. Let me play Candy Crush or
1:56:52whatever. It's like we bristle at any
1:56:54kind of discomfort now. So, a part of it
1:56:56is the aestheticism of leaning into
1:56:58these discomforts, but also getting rid
1:57:00of all
1:57:01that ratchets up your attention. It
1:57:05really just kind of like cranks up the
1:57:06focus. you start to see things you
1:57:08wouldn't see otherwise. And because
1:57:09you're so bored for most of it, you
1:57:11you're desperate to connect with people.
1:57:12So, it's like this this sort of forcing
1:57:14function to get you to talk to people.
1:57:15And I have another rule like you have to
1:57:17take a portrait of someone by 10:00 in
1:57:18the morning and it'll be like 9:30 and
1:57:19I'll be like, "Oh man, I haven't taken a
1:57:20portrait yet." And so, I'll just run
1:57:22into a random shop and be like, "Hey,
1:57:23can I take your picture?" And again,
1:57:25that just catalyzes a human connection.
1:57:28And uh so on these walks I'm I'm just
1:57:30filled with this abundance of connecting
1:57:33with people, strangers and and and again
1:57:36when you have a great interaction with a
1:57:38stranger and it feels magical and
1:57:41there's been this weird thing now that
1:57:42I'm like a TV person and I've been on
1:57:44the radio. It's like I'll meet people
1:57:46and they'll be like I saw you on TV. you
1:57:47know, this thing. And so it's the
1:57:48walking
1:57:50guy and uh and so that adds another like
1:57:53they're really excited about that. And
1:57:55but anyway, it's this clearly mutually
1:57:57like joyful thing that happens. Um but
1:58:00I'm walking I'm doing that while walking
1:58:0230 km, 40 km day after day after day
1:58:05after day for weeks on end. And then
1:58:07every night I get to an inn or a hotel
1:58:09or whatever and I'll sit down and I
1:58:11write for 3 4 5 hours. You know, I'm
1:58:14editing the photos for the day. I'm
1:58:16writing 2, three, 4,000 words and then
1:58:18I'm putting them together. I'm trying to
1:58:19create this kind of like visual uh uh
1:58:21literary narrative and oftentimes I'll
1:58:23run a newsletter, a pop-up newsletter
1:58:25that starts and ends on for the duration
1:58:28of the walk and I'll send that out to
1:58:30the people who are out there and that
1:58:31that for me knowing there's a little bit
1:58:33of an audience out there on the other
1:58:35side cuz you know you you've talked
1:58:38about this. You don't want to get up and
1:58:40do that run. you're like, "Ah, let me
1:58:41skip today or whatever." And after
1:58:43walking for eight hours, if after doing
1:58:4545k, you get to an inn, you don't want
1:58:47to write for three hours, you know? So,
1:58:50it's about that duality of like using
1:58:52the body up as much as possible and then
1:58:54using the mind up as much as possible at
1:58:55night and proving to yourself that
1:58:57you've got so much extra juice in you
1:58:59than you may think you have. And I would
1:59:01say doing day after day after day after
1:59:04day for weeks and now months and now
1:59:06years I've been doing this um has proven
1:59:08to me that like if you sit me down and
1:59:10say you've got 3 hours to write this
1:59:11essay like you can do it. Um and you can
1:59:14pull something interesting out of it and
1:59:15if you don't pull something interesting
1:59:16out of it it's the onus is on you not on
1:59:17the day and you have this audience
1:59:19that's waiting for it that has an
1:59:20expectation that you're going to
1:59:22deliver. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you
1:59:24think about the relationship between the
1:59:26discomfort of of it and the creative
1:59:30expression of it? Like how does the
1:59:32discomfort like drive the deeper self
1:59:36inquiry and the heightened level of
1:59:39attention to your environment? Well, I
1:59:41mean I think the physicality again mood
1:59:43mood follows action, right? It's like I
1:59:44think the physicality of it makes it so
1:59:48every day on a walk like this I already
1:59:50feel like just having done the walk
1:59:51itself like I've won the day in a weird
1:59:53way. And so it puts me in a in just such
1:59:56a positive state of mind. Um and again
1:59:59it almost feels like spiritual almost
2:00:00like theological this just the walking
2:00:02from point to point in and of itself.
2:00:04And a lot of it you know there'll be
2:00:05elevation gains and and and dissensions
2:00:08and stuff like that. And so I mean some
2:00:10days I might be doing you know 3 4,000
2:00:12meters of climbing with this big pack
2:00:13on. I'm carrying three cameras, my
2:00:15laptop and you know uh changes of
2:00:18clothes and stuff. So it's like a
2:00:19non-trivial amount of of weight. So it's
2:00:21really physical. I mean my body
2:00:22whittleles down by the end of these
2:00:24walks. Like it just feels great. And so
2:00:26I think that that physicality and
2:00:28walking you know throughout history
2:00:30people have said oh walking helps me
2:00:31think. And you know Einstein all these
2:00:33great thinkers used to have their daily
2:00:35walks and that was when they would
2:00:36problem solve. And for me, when I turn
2:00:37everything off and I don't have the
2:00:39distractions, I don't have the
2:00:41teleportation, my mind immediately goes
2:00:43into writing mode. That's what fills the
2:00:45space. When my when my mind has like a
2:00:48expanse of boredom that opens up,
2:00:50expanse of yo-yo, my mind immediately
2:00:53goes into a place of writing,
2:00:54synthesizing in a really positive way.
2:00:56And so I dictate. You can kind of just
2:00:58use like an AirPod and dictate and have
2:00:59it append to a note in Apple Notes. So I
2:01:02don't have to look at my phone. I don't
2:01:03have to touch the I don't I really don't
2:01:04want to touch the phone, but I dictate
2:01:06throughout the day as I'm walking and by
2:01:08the end of the day I'll have 10,000
2:01:09words or whatever in this note and then
2:01:12I use that as a jumping off point. But
2:01:14that in the real moment synthesizing and
2:01:16thinking about and then when you do this
2:01:17day after day after day, you start to
2:01:19recognize patterns that you would
2:01:20otherwise miss. And even if you have one
2:01:22other person and which is one of the
2:01:24reasons I I I don't do these with John
2:01:26is because even just having one other
2:01:28person teleports you out of that moment.
2:01:31And so the walks with Kevin for example
2:01:33with eight or 10 people those are about
2:01:35the talks. It's not really about the
2:01:36walk. And the walk is kind of a platform
2:01:38on top of which the talking happens. I
2:01:41can't tell you anything about the Camino
2:01:43de Santiago because we're just talking
2:01:45the whole time the whole time. Yeah. I
2:01:47think uh there's something about being
2:01:49in a persistent state of elevated heart
2:01:54rate like just mildly elevated heart
2:01:56rate and freeze your like even below
2:01:58zone. I mean, if you're walk like you
2:02:00have a pack, you're walking like it's
2:02:01rigorous. Is that zone two? It's like
2:02:03may maybe it's high zone one. I don't
2:02:05know. But like elevated enough so that
2:02:08you're not at rest. Y and sufficient
2:02:11enough to unlock the unconscious mind in
2:02:14a way that other things don't really
2:02:16like you're you're suddenly able to kind
2:02:19of free associate and synthesize those
2:02:20ideas. And that's why when I'm out
2:02:22running, it's like yeah, I have to stop
2:02:24and dictate. So, you know, like and I
2:02:25because I'll I'll forget if I don't do
2:02:27it. Um, but there's a tension between
2:02:30that part like the the creative mind
2:02:34doing its thing and the being present
2:02:37and paying attention which is kind of
2:02:39why you're there also, right? Like those
2:02:41two things are are are at odds with each
2:02:43other, right? So, you have how do you
2:02:45balance that out because you're there to
2:02:46like you want to see these things and
2:02:48really be present with what you're
2:02:49observing and then there's the
2:02:51reflective aspect of that. I I I think
2:02:54they're less at odds and just more in
2:02:55conversation with one another and they
2:02:57kind of build off each other. And so the
2:02:58more I'm able to allow myself to enter
2:03:02in this state of reflection in real time
2:03:05cuz you do forget so fast like these
2:03:07things are like I'll have a conversation
2:03:08with someone. They're completely
2:03:09ephemeral and you think you're going to
2:03:11remember. You're not going to remember.
2:03:12You've got to if you if you've ever done
2:03:14any field work like design fieldwork
2:03:16research like I did research in Myanmar
2:03:1810 years ago where I was going out there
2:03:20to with a NGO to help farmers farm
2:03:24better and we were trying to figure out
2:03:25how to distribute information better but
2:03:27one of the takeaways was you do this
2:03:28field research and then immediately as
2:03:31soon as you're done after you've met the
2:03:32far you have to write it all down
2:03:34everything because even an hour later
2:03:36you forget half of it like that the
2:03:37halfife of memory is is is so quick. So,
2:03:40I'll have a conversation and I'll just
2:03:41be like that turn of phrase is the
2:03:43greatest thing I've heard, you know,
2:03:45like all day and like I just have to get
2:03:46that down uh as quickly as possible. But
2:03:49to me, it really it feels like it's
2:03:50almost heightening the attention by
2:03:53doing that because it's like we're we're
2:03:54looking for these these kind of hooks,
2:03:56these snippets to build the narrative
2:03:58around. And it feels healthy. I mean
2:04:01those walks and the writing I do and the
2:04:04photography I do those are some of the
2:04:06richest creative days of my life of my
2:04:09life for sure. From a meta view of it to
2:04:13me it feels like these experiences are
2:04:17connecting you with yourself. They're
2:04:18connecting you with the land. They're
2:04:20connecting you with these other with
2:04:22these people. They're connecting you
2:04:23with the past. Yep. Um your past and the
2:04:27past of this foreign land that you've
2:04:29adopted. Um, so there's a there's like a
2:04:32sense of like oneness, right?
2:04:35Well, and also one of the complex things
2:04:38about being an immigrant to Japan and
2:04:41you look like me is you're never going
2:04:43to be part of Japan. Never ever going to
2:04:47accept you. You're never going to be a
2:04:48Japanese person. And that's not the
2:04:50desire necessarily. Um, but I I do think
2:04:54one of what I was looking for around
2:04:56like 2013 when I went back was why am I
2:04:59here? what is what what can I do that is
2:05:02additive to both me and the place and
2:05:04not look for something from the place to
2:05:07to to give to me. I think a lot of
2:05:08people who who immigrate to Japan then
2:05:12become disillusioned with it or angry at
2:05:14Japan is because they they want
2:05:16something from it. They expect Tokyo to
2:05:18respect them in some way or the country
2:05:19to give them something. Look, I'm I'm
2:05:20I'm committing to you. Why don't you
2:05:22commit back to me? But that's a very
2:05:23dangerous place to be in. And and I
2:05:25think I was able to go back and and in
2:05:27doing these walks with John, I kind of
2:05:29realize like, wow, this is really
2:05:30special. It has the historical component
2:05:32of it. I'm able to use the language. I'm
2:05:34able to do this thing that to me feels
2:05:37important just as a human, like
2:05:38collecting these archetypes of ways of
2:05:40life. And um and then being able to
2:05:43share them in a way that's meaningful
2:05:44with others, amplify that, sort of
2:05:48present this part of Japan that people
2:05:49don't have access to. like this book is
2:05:51a whole set of stories that no one will
2:05:53ever be able to experience for the most
2:05:55part. It's like very very few people in
2:05:56the world be able to go to these areas.
2:05:58And I think that that helped me find a
2:06:01purpose of being there in a way
2:06:04that 13 years ago was important for me
2:06:06to find. How do you know
2:06:09when you're using these walks to
2:06:12integrate as opposed to escape? You
2:06:15know, I like can you catch yourself?
2:06:17Like have there been occasions where
2:06:19you're like, "Oh, now I'm the walking
2:06:21guy, so I can just go and do one of
2:06:22these walks, but actually what I really
2:06:24want to do is just like not deal with
2:06:25this other part of my life." Or I mean,
2:06:27they listen, they feel deeply
2:06:29integrative and very intentional. So,
2:06:31I'm not I'm not presuming that you're
2:06:34doing this, but I just know in my for
2:06:36myself like I can I can sort of make an
2:06:39argument like I'm going to go do this
2:06:40thing and and it's easy to not be honest
2:06:42with myself about like what I'm maybe
2:06:44what maybe my attention probably should
2:06:46it would be better attuned to that I'm
2:06:49just kind of avoiding. I'm I am so
2:06:51paranoid. I mean, I am I am so
2:06:55pathologically paranoid. Again, it's
2:06:56like that scarcity mindset thing. I'm
2:06:58like, I'm going to lose all my money.
2:07:00I'm going to have to move back to where
2:07:01I came from. Like I'm going to have to
2:07:02like that's always there. That voice is
2:07:04always there. And um the paranoia also
2:07:06goes in this direction of like are we
2:07:08escaping too much? Are we using this as
2:07:10a crutch? Are we you know so I'm
2:07:12constantly coming back to that
2:07:14revisiting it? Like making sure are we
2:07:16doing something new with this or not?
2:07:17Which is why I kind of did the 10 cities
2:07:19thing. I was like this let's mix it up.
2:07:21Let's start to find instead of just
2:07:22walking an old historical route linearly
2:07:24like what if we did this other thing?
2:07:25What if we did this? And you know, I
2:07:27think with the media stuff in the last 2
2:07:29years that came out of left field and
2:07:31I've kind of leaned into that and that's
2:07:33kind of added another layer of uh
2:07:35richness to it all. Um and purpose to
2:07:38the walks as well. And so it feels right
2:07:40now uh pretty healthy, you know. Um and
2:07:44at the same time um I was in this
2:07:47relationship. I'm no longer with the
2:07:48mom, but like I have a stepdaughter,
2:07:50right? So you you still have a
2:07:52relationship with her with stepdaughter.
2:07:54incredible deep relationship with a
2:07:55stepdaughter. And like I I don't even
2:07:57like to call her stepdaughter. Like in
2:07:59Japanese it's giddy giddy mus giddy no
2:08:02mus. Um and I had someone yell at me the
2:08:05other day. There's just like don't use
2:08:06that phrase. Like cuz in English
2:08:08stepchild is so common. But in Japanese
2:08:11there is something I guess that feels
2:08:12pjorative about it. And I've come in
2:08:13English too to be like I don't know if I
2:08:15want to use stepkid anymore. So I just
2:08:16kind of call her my daughter even though
2:08:18she's 100% Japanese. And um you know she
2:08:22is 15 now. And as I was starting to do
2:08:27all these walks you know she was 6 7 8 9
2:08:3010 11 12 and I was more and more this
2:08:33kind
2:08:34of force in her life. And I never grew
2:08:38up with reconciliation witnessing that.
2:08:40And I carried with me until very
2:08:44recently and it's still there I'm sure
2:08:46this sense that people could anyone
2:08:48could throw me away. And I I started,
2:08:51you know, I'd do these walks, I'd come
2:08:52back home, you know, spend a bunch of
2:08:54time with her and as I'm walking, we're
2:08:55videoing, you know, facetiming every
2:08:56night or whatever. And um I would come
2:08:59back and we'd have like little fights,
2:09:00you know, like she'd like stop going to
2:09:02school for a while and like, you know,
2:09:03I'd kind of spray her with a water
2:09:04bottle or something like, you know, just
2:09:05try to like get her up in the morning
2:09:06like you just don't know. like you get
2:09:08up, go to school. And she would get
2:09:10really mad at me and wouldn't talk to me
2:09:11for like two weeks. And the first time
2:09:14that happened, I I thought I was going
2:09:17to die because I was like, "Oh, okay.
2:09:20She's done with me. She She doesn't need
2:09:22me. She's throwing me away. This is just
2:09:24this is just what happens in our life.
2:09:25This little this 8-year-old,
2:09:27nine-year-old, she's done with me. We're
2:09:29not connected by blood. She doesn't
2:09:30really see see me as a dad. She's just
2:09:32going to throw me away."
2:09:34And what I realized, ob, you know, this
2:09:36is obvious in hindsight, was she really
2:09:39wanted to reconcile and I didn't have
2:09:40the toolkit to do that. She didn't, as
2:09:44an 8-year-old, she doesn't have the
2:09:45toolkit to do that. And finally I found,
2:09:48you know, I started talking with people
2:09:49and talking with the therapist and
2:09:50whatever and just found these kind of
2:09:52modalities to be to begin to reconcile
2:09:55with her and just immediately realized
2:09:57like how not only was she so grateful to
2:10:00reconcile like she's so so desperately
2:10:02wanting in her life and so you know we'd
2:10:04get in little more little fights and
2:10:05reconcile more quickly and that that
2:10:06that loop started closing and closing
2:10:08and closing and then I realized more and
2:10:09more like holy crap like I am such a
2:10:13force for good in this girl's life, you
2:10:15know, to the point where um I I think
2:10:18I'm probably the only J dad in Japan
2:10:19where when she got her period, she ran
2:10:21out with her bloody underwear and showed
2:10:23me. She was like she's she was like, "I
2:10:26got a I got my period." Yeah. The first
2:10:28instinct is to go to dad, you know, cuz
2:10:30we had sort of we had sort of
2:10:31dstigmatized um you know, we knew it was
2:10:34coming and it was like, "Let's talk
2:10:35about this and not make it be this like
2:10:37stigmatized thing, you know, and then I
2:10:39don't think she realized it was going to
2:10:40happen forever." I think she thought it
2:10:41just like happened once and it was done.
2:10:42And then once she realized it was like,
2:10:44"Oh my god, this is going to happen
2:10:45every month." She had like a breakdown.
2:10:47We had to like, you know, like console
2:10:48her, you know, it's like I kind of
2:10:49understand the the trauma of like young
2:10:52girls now a little bit better having
2:10:54witnessed that. But the fact that like
2:10:55she's had so much trust uh directed
2:10:58towards me and now um you know, I I I
2:11:02got her into boarding school. She's
2:11:03studying in New Zealand now and I
2:11:04brought her down in January. we went
2:11:06together and um it was just me and her
2:11:10and you know going to school and being
2:11:12like you know oh yeah I'm the dad it was
2:11:13my daughter and having everyone kind of
2:11:14like do a second look for a second but
2:11:16then just accept it you know and then
2:11:18all the other kids who were not white
2:11:19asking her oh are you half you know da
2:11:21da and like kind of bringing them into
2:11:22her fold her into their fold. Um, but
2:11:25being able to go down there and witness
2:11:26that and be present for that and help
2:11:28catalyze that, like the the level of
2:11:32selfworth, like no one in no one and no
2:11:34other act act in my life has given me
2:11:36more value than my daughter and uh those
2:11:38interactions that we've had together and
2:11:40the kind of the mutual growth we've had
2:11:41together and that's been so profound. I
2:11:44don't know, man. There's this throughine
2:11:46of adoption that just runs through
2:11:48everything here, you know. Yeah.
2:11:52um being adopted, adopting a new country
2:11:56and then I mean formerly you didn't
2:11:58adopt your stepdaughter but like that's
2:12:00what it is. It's that dynamic. It's that
2:12:03relationship.
2:12:04Well, it's funny. I'm you know I'm
2:12:06paying for school and uh just because I
2:12:09can you know I mean in all in all manner
2:12:12you've adopted this this girl. But
2:12:15people you know up until now up until I
2:12:17said oh I'm yeah I'm paying for school.
2:12:19You know, that's the thing that people
2:12:20go, "Oh, you're really her dad." You
2:12:21know, it's like this weird like the
2:12:23financial thing once it kicks in that
2:12:25like somehow legitimizes you in a
2:12:27strange way, but um but she sees me, she
2:12:30calls me dad, you know, it's like I we
2:12:32do a FaceTime call and someone asks,
2:12:33"Who are you talking to? I'm talking to
2:12:34my dad, you know." So, you know, I I
2:12:36want to honor that. And as an adopted
2:12:38person, I think it's very easy for me to
2:12:40to honor that. In trying to make peace
2:12:42with this, you did seek out your
2:12:45biological parents, though. I know
2:12:46there's a story here. I did. Yeah. My uh
2:12:50the adoption papers said, and this is
2:12:53the only information I had was my mom
2:12:56was 13 when she got pregnant, and my dad
2:13:00had
2:13:00been in a car accident and then there
2:13:03was a murder at the sight of the car
2:13:04accident. So, he was murdered like in a
2:13:07fight. So, so my my as a kid, right? So,
2:13:10as an adopted kid, you are the the the
2:13:14butt of all jokes on TV. Oh, you know,
2:13:16like that's whenever you want to rank on
2:13:18someone, put someone down, you say, "Oh,
2:13:19you're probably adopted, right?" Like
2:13:21you see this on like sitcoms and stuff.
2:13:22Oh, this is our adopted step, you know,
2:13:23the redheaded stepkid or whatever. And
2:13:26so knowing that, oh, my dad was murdered
2:13:28in this car accident. And then my mom
2:13:30was 13 and that so I concocted this
2:13:33terrible story to protect myself where
2:13:36I'm like, oh, my mom was probably a
2:13:37prostitute and she was a drug addict. It
2:13:39said she smoked weed or whatever. I was
2:13:40like had taken Valium. And so my whole
2:13:43my whole story that I told myself as a
2:13:45kid, young kid, and then as a teenager
2:13:47was, oh, you come from violence, you
2:13:49come from a a place of of pain, where
2:13:52you're accident, they didn't want you,
2:13:54and the circumstances were terrible.
2:13:56That was essentially my whole identity,
2:13:58origin story, identity. Uh, and then
2:14:00being adopted into this family where
2:14:01they divorce immediately, and you know,
2:14:03there's all these other kind of like
2:14:04complexities of the town. It's just like
2:14:06it was very hard. You understand why I
2:14:08carry all this scarcity uh with me. But
2:14:11a few years ago, you know, it's 23
2:14:12andme, ancestry.com, stuff like that. It
2:14:16was mostly because for my daughter, I
2:14:18wanted to know if I had any medical
2:14:21issues. I wanted I should be paying more
2:14:23attention to that was really what
2:14:24catalyzed me looking for my birth
2:14:26parents uh and that and that kind of
2:14:28genetic history. It wasn't, oh, I need I
2:14:32need this person in my life. I want to
2:14:33connect with this person. It was there
2:14:34was none of that. And part of that may
2:14:36be because um my adopted parents did not
2:14:40give me permission to do that either. I
2:14:42think it's really complicated. Adoption
2:14:44is so complicated cuz the adopted
2:14:46parents in some ways almost want to make
2:14:47believe that like you're not adopted.
2:14:49And the more we talk about it, the less
2:14:50they'll think of us as real parents. So
2:14:52that's scary to them. So they don't ever
2:14:53want to give you permission to go search
2:14:55for your biological parents, right? In a
2:14:57in a weird way because maybe if I give
2:14:59too much permission, then they can throw
2:15:00me away. the complexities. It's it's
2:15:03it's a minefield. So, understanding that
2:15:05at some point, you know, this person is
2:15:08going to want to find that out, but
2:15:10interpreting that as a threat or or a
2:15:13kind of a a statement about their, you
2:15:16know, how how well they've parented you
2:15:18100%. And it's really hard. It's a
2:15:21really hard line to walk. I I I have so
2:15:23much empathy for everyone involved in in
2:15:25the equation. But a couple years ago, I
2:15:27was like, "Okay, my, you know, I want to
2:15:28be around for my daughter." And that was
2:15:29like actually the first time I felt a
2:15:30sense of like purpose to live beyond 40
2:15:33too. Um, and the book stuff started
2:15:36working out and the walk started working
2:15:37out and I run a membership program and
2:15:39the members were sending me lots of
2:15:41really positive things. I have a file on
2:15:42my computer called uh you're not a piece
2:15:44of
2:15:47shit.txt and I put anytime someone sends
2:15:50me a nice email, I copy and paste it,
2:15:51put it in the you're not a piece of
2:15:52You just have some giant txt file
2:15:55with it's huge now. It's like it's very
2:15:58it's very I'm delighted to say it's big.
2:16:01But um it was the first time I was like
2:16:03okay I should I should try to like
2:16:05actively try to live longer than you
2:16:06know certainly I thought I was going to
2:16:07live in my 20s and so anyway I did
2:16:10ancestry we connected on there. I
2:16:12maintained anonymity. So it was my birth
2:16:14mom and I matched and but on ancestry
2:16:17you can be completely anonymous and so I
2:16:18stayed anonymous because I was like
2:16:21first of all I was also paranoid. I was
2:16:22like, "Is this person going to be debt
2:16:24riddled?" And like, you know, are they
2:16:25going to own a bunch of AR-15s and like
2:16:27are we going to be able to talk about
2:16:28anything? And like the last thing I
2:16:29needed was another adult a mind of a
2:16:33child in the shape of an adult in my
2:16:35life, which I feel like I'd grown up
2:16:36with so many of those in my in my
2:16:39periphery. And I was like, I just can't
2:16:41be another surrogate parent to an adult
2:16:45here. And so I was like, okay, let me
2:16:47maintain as much distance as possible.
2:16:48And it was like 50% overlap. It was like
2:16:50obvious this was my mom and I saw her
2:16:52name and I was able to Google her and
2:16:53like kind of stalk her and all that
2:16:54stuff. I was like, "Okay, that's enough.
2:16:55That's all that's kind of all I don't
2:16:57really need to know more than this." And
2:16:59as soon as I did that, as soon as we
2:17:00matched, I saw her Facebook page got
2:17:02like shut down and like I thought,
2:17:04"Okay, maybe she didn't want to match or
2:17:07you know, maybe she her family had her
2:17:09do it and she was kind of reluctant but
2:17:10didn't want to talk about me and so may
2:17:12she doesn't want me to connect and
2:17:13doesn't want me to know who she is." And
2:17:15so I I just stepped back. I said,
2:17:16"That's fine. I don't need her in my
2:17:18life. I don't I I'm in a I'm in a place
2:17:21I feel I feel great about who I am. I
2:17:23don't need this. And so for a year, we
2:17:24didn't communicate at all. I didn't
2:17:26message on Ancestry. And then a year
2:17:28later, she messaged me this short little
2:17:31message that said all you saw about me
2:17:33was male like 42 in Japan. That's all it
2:17:37said. And so it was like a little bit
2:17:38confusing to her like why is this guy in
2:17:40Japan? And uh but it's like 50% overlap
2:17:42DN. It was obvious that we were like
2:17:44mother child. And um she sent me this
2:17:47little like message that just said, "I
2:17:49think we related." It was like bad
2:17:51grammar. It had like no punctuation. It
2:17:53was it was very weird. And I was like,
2:17:55"Oh, come on." Like asking me to do the
2:17:58heavy lifting again in this like
2:18:00obviously we're related. Obviously, I'm
2:18:0313 years younger than you. Like who?
2:18:05Like I am your child you had when you
2:18:07were 13. Like there's no other option.
2:18:10And so I sat with that for like 3 months
2:18:12and didn't respond. And finally I was
2:18:15like, "All right, what would I want to
2:18:16hear if I was her?" And I I wrote her
2:18:18this again anonymous response on
2:18:20Ancestry where I was just like,
2:18:21"Hey, you know, it wasn't the best
2:18:24circumstances, but like look, I've been
2:18:25able to create this life of abundance
2:18:27from, you know, and like joy and I'm
2:18:29able to do these things and it's been
2:18:30really amazing and I can I can't imagine
2:18:32how hard it was for you to do the things
2:18:34you did to give me this life when you
2:18:36were 13." And I just want to say thank
2:18:38you for that. and um and I'm doing
2:18:41really well and I just want to let you
2:18:43know that and I was still anonymous.
2:18:44Mhm. And then no response from her and
2:18:47then 3 months later and I'm just like,
2:18:49"Oh my god, all right. She's hopeless or
2:18:50whatever." And then 3 months later I get
2:18:53this like title wave of messages from
2:18:56her, these two
2:18:58thousandword beautiful essays, like
2:19:01beautifully written essays. Oh my god, I
2:19:02don't have email notifications on for
2:19:04Ancestry. I didn't see this message
2:19:06until now. I feel so stupid. Oh my god,
2:19:07I'm so sorry I've made you wait 3
2:19:09months. Da da da. And just this
2:19:11incredible emotional intelligence on the
2:19:13page. Really shocking. And I was sharing
2:19:15it with a couple writer friends and they
2:19:17were just like, "Wow, she's a really
2:19:18good writer." You know, like it's coming
2:19:20into focus. It's coming into focus. And
2:19:23I Wow. I was in this really busy period
2:19:25of my life. This was 15 months ago.
2:19:28Super busy period. I got a MRSA
2:19:30infection in my arm. I was in the
2:19:32hospital. I was I had a book coming out.
2:19:35I had all this stuff going on. and she's
2:19:36sending me these like incredible essays
2:19:38and I I didn't have the yo-yo in my
2:19:41anything to respond and I kind of didn't
2:19:43and then two weeks later she sends me
2:19:44another giant essay beautifully written
2:19:46about like all the animals she grew up
2:19:47with and this is what your grandfather
2:19:49used to do and you know he died you know
2:19:5151 of colon cancer I was like great I'm
2:19:53going to get a colonoscopy next year you
2:19:55know it's like all this all this stuff
2:19:57kind of coming together and uh again I
2:19:59didn't have the time to respond but I
2:20:01felt so guilty and now I'm like oh great
2:20:02now I'm now I'm like making two moms in
2:20:05the world feel bad cuz I'm not like
2:20:06sending enough messages, you know, and I
2:20:08sent a quick little message. I said,
2:20:09"Hey, look, I'm so overwhelmed right
2:20:11now. Thank you for these messages. These
2:20:12are so wonderful. I'll get back to you
2:20:14in the new year." And then I didn't get
2:20:15back to her. And then I was on a walk
2:20:17with Kevin. We were in Bali. We're
2:20:19sitting on our bamboo platform. And I
2:20:21kind of told him the update. I'm like,
2:20:22"This is where things are with mom with
2:20:24birth mom." And Kevin just goes, "Craig,
2:20:27just go have lunch with her." And I go,
2:20:29"No." And then like two weeks later, I
2:20:32was like, "You know what?" And I went on
2:20:34Ancestry. said, "Hey, going to be in I'm
2:20:36going to be in Chicago on this date. Do
2:20:37you want to get lunch?" She goes,
2:20:39"Absolutely. I'll make a reservation.
2:20:41I'll see you here at
2:20:4311:30." And we just set it up. Went
2:20:47out. I'm
2:20:49nervous because it's just I don't know
2:20:52what's going to happen. Are we going to
2:20:53like spontaneously combust when we, you
2:20:54know, we hug or who? I didn't know what
2:20:56was going to happen. But I felt a couple
2:20:59things. One was like I was like, I don't
2:21:01need this to go well. like I don't need
2:21:04this to be perfect. I don't need this
2:21:05person in my life. Like I just see this
2:21:06as kind of like an interesting
2:21:08adventure. Let's just go meet this
2:21:10person. See what that feels like. Like
2:21:11just kind of go into in that state of
2:21:13mind. And then the second thing I felt
2:21:16and I thank my daughter for this being
2:21:18able to feel this way was she is so
2:21:21lucky to meet me today. Like this person
2:21:26that I am going to meet her. Wow. She's
2:21:30lucky to meet this person in a way in
2:21:32like a totally non-narcissistic,
2:21:34non-egotistical way. Just like, holy
2:21:37like I'm proud of who I am.
2:21:40And I'm I'm so happy to be this person
2:21:43for her, you know, when we finally first
2:21:45get to meet and to be in that healthy
2:21:47state of not needing it to go a certain
2:21:50way or, you know, for her to perceive
2:21:52you in any in any way. You don't need
2:21:55anything from her like that. That allows
2:21:57for the openness, nothing. And so, you
2:22:00know, I walk up to the steakhouse and
2:22:03she's there. I knew I knew everything
2:22:04about her. She didn't know my name
2:22:05still. Oh, you did. Yeah. You put your
2:22:07coding to to work to do a little sleuth
2:22:11thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I knew
2:22:13everything. I knew where she worked. I
2:22:14knew her ex-husband, you know, like
2:22:17everything. Um, and I, you know, I was
2:22:19like, "Hello. Hi. I'm your son." You
2:22:22know, it's like and we gave each other a
2:22:24hug and went into the steakhouse, sat
2:22:26down in a booth, and the first thing she
2:22:28does is she she pulls out a photo of me
2:22:32as a baby that the adoption agency must
2:22:34have given her. And she goes, "I've been
2:22:36carrying this my whole life, and every
2:22:39year on your birthday, I think
2:22:41about who you might have become. I pray
2:22:44for your happiness. I think about what
2:22:47kind of family you might have. And I'm
2:22:50just like that is not what I expected to
2:22:53be the first beautiful to come out of
2:22:56her mouth. Yeah. And in that moment
2:22:59immediately I just start to feel this
2:23:02rewiring happening. Even now saying this
2:23:05I can my brain is like tingling. It was
2:23:07like literal literal tingling of the
2:23:09brain of neurons of this of this
2:23:12narrative I've I concocted of of
2:23:15scarcity of violence of pain. And the
2:23:19more she talked, the more she said, "Oh
2:23:21no, like the pregnancy wasn't planned.
2:23:24Your dad, by the way, is alive. He lives
2:23:27in Florida."
2:23:29Oh, so that was all She's
2:23:30like, she's like, "He was 22. I was 13.
2:23:33That's statutory rape." But it was
2:23:35completely consensual and um I didn't
2:23:39want to deal with courts. So I just
2:23:41picked a guy who'd been murdered out of
2:23:42the newspaper and said that was that was
2:23:45dad. So already she had this kind of
2:23:47entrepreneurial spirit. She was just
2:23:49like I'm just going to figure this out.
2:23:50I don't care. I'm going to get it done.
2:23:52And she was finally told her sister
2:23:56about it. The sister told the mom. The
2:23:58mom was like oh my god okay well we'll
2:24:00deal with this. Um she has four
2:24:03siblings. her dad died when she was
2:24:04nine. So it was like she was nine and
2:24:06her oldest was I think like 16 when her
2:24:08dad when the dad died. And so it was a
2:24:10single mom raising these five kids. So
2:24:12she didn't have the energy to deal with
2:24:14that. So she sent her to her aunt and
2:24:16uncle in Connecticut. That's how I ended
2:24:17up in Connecticut. And um you know my
2:24:20birth mom was just saying they were so
2:24:23welcoming and I went to high school
2:24:25there as a freshman and they welcomed me
2:24:27even though I was like six months
2:24:28pregnant and they gave me a senior as a
2:24:29mentor and I was taking all these
2:24:31prenatal vitamins and it was just this
2:24:32story of like being protected and taken
2:24:34care of and she said I didn't want to
2:24:36give you up you know but I knew that I
2:24:38was 13 I couldn't take care of you and
2:24:40you were born and I held you for two
2:24:42days and I didn't want to leave you and
2:24:43I wrote you this letter. Did you get the
2:24:45letter I wrote to you? I was like, "Oh
2:24:46my god." Like, wow. It was just so
2:24:49overwhelming to hear her side of this
2:24:52story that I had told myself for, you
2:24:55know, 42 years is very, very different
2:24:58story. Yeah. The story that you've been
2:25:01telling your whole life, like, you know,
2:25:03is revealed to be a complete, you know,
2:25:07fabrication of the truth, right? And yet
2:25:09it has informed you like fundamentally
2:25:11as a human being for that period of
2:25:13time. Yeah. and to have the opportunity
2:25:16to retell a new story um is a gift. But
2:25:21I think the whole thing speaks to just
2:25:23how powerful these stories are and how
2:25:25how much we allow them to really
2:25:27commandeer, you know, how we show up in
2:25:29the world and our worldview and how we
2:25:31behave and interact with other people
2:25:33and our fears. Everything is a function
2:25:36of story. Yep. And as we sat there and
2:25:39she told me about it, like she's like, I
2:25:41was always a hard worker. I was working
2:25:43a part-time job at 13. That's why I met
2:25:45the guy who got me pregnant. And I was
2:25:47at a working at a deli. And she's like,
2:25:48"By the time I was 16, I bought my first
2:25:50car. 18, bought my second car, bought my
2:25:52first house at 22. She's like a baller.
2:25:54She's she's she's got like the
2:25:55entrepreneur thing. She's got the writer
2:25:57thing." And you're like, you're seeing
2:25:58clearly like And you you want to know
2:26:00what her job is? I don't know. Computer
2:26:02programming or something. That's
2:26:05Did you know that? She's a computer
2:26:07programmer. So she and she's completely
2:26:09selftaught. She didn't graduate from
2:26:10college. She's completely hacked
2:26:12together this life. I'm just going to
2:26:13make it work. I'm going to figure it
2:26:14out. I'm going to do this thing. You
2:26:15know, she's been to Tokyo, Taipei,
2:26:17Shanghai on like client work. Oh,
2:26:19really? Yeah. Is she into like Nintendo
2:26:21Switch and like I think her family is. I
2:26:24think her husband's like a big big gamer
2:26:26or something. But like um but it would
2:26:28like hearing her say these things again.
2:26:31It's this rewiring and and here's here
2:26:34was the most kind of surrealist like
2:26:36sci-fi moment. As I'm sitting there and
2:26:38she's telling me these things, I
2:26:39realized for the first time in my life,
2:26:42I know I I I understood where my brain
2:26:44came from. I'm like, "Oh, I just have
2:26:47your brain in my head. Everything you're
2:26:49saying, the way you've dealt with
2:26:50everything is exactly how I've dealt
2:26:51with everything in my life. I have just
2:26:53been using your blueprint, your genetic
2:26:55brain blueprint to move through this
2:26:57world because no one in my family
2:26:58understood what I was doing. No one in
2:27:00my in my town could empathize with the
2:27:02decisions I was making. M and yet here
2:27:04you are sitting in front of me and that
2:27:06nature element of this I am just you
2:27:09know and the waitress didn't come over
2:27:10to us for 2 and 1 half hours we just we
2:27:13didn't order anything and the weird
2:27:14thing is like you're old enough such
2:27:16that she's kind of your age like she's
2:27:18like a peer you know what I mean she's
2:27:21younger than I am so they thought we
2:27:23were on a really weird Tinder date you
2:27:24know it was like it was just like what
2:27:25is happening in this booth here you know
2:27:27these it's the most profound you know
2:27:30yeah weird weird online dating situation
2:27:32but yeah It was so strange. And and you
2:27:35know, she's like, "Do you have friends
2:27:36in Chicago?" I'm like, "Yeah, I've got
2:27:37some friends. I got a dinner tonight."
2:27:39And she was like, "You have dinner
2:27:40tonight?" I was like, "Yeah." I mean, I
2:27:41thought we were just doing lunch. And
2:27:42she goes, "I got us tickets to the
2:27:44symphony and a pizza reservation and
2:27:46we're doing an architecture tour." And I
2:27:48was just like, "Oh my god." Like, of
2:27:50course, I'll cancel like, you know,
2:27:52you've got me. Like, I'm here. I'm here.
2:27:53And we did this walk through the city.
2:27:56And she was like, she's like, "I'm so
2:27:57glad you can walk because I wanted to do
2:27:59this big walk through Chicago and show
2:28:00you everything." thing and she's like,
2:28:01"I was hoping you weren't going to be
2:28:02like morbidly obese." I was like, "What
2:28:04what if he shows up in a wheelchair?
2:28:05What are we going to do?" You know, she
2:28:06had like all these weird paranoia about
2:28:08it. Um, and we ended up walking for like
2:28:103 or 4 hours that afternoon and it would
2:28:13start raining and we'd have to duck into
2:28:14a place and, you know, and then we'd
2:28:16start walking again and it was it re it
2:28:20felt like all of the walking I had done
2:28:22and all the work I had done on myself
2:28:24was in service of doing that walk. Well,
2:28:26this is the conclusion of the biopic.
2:28:28you and your mom, you know, walking
2:28:32down walking down, you know, the
2:28:34boulevard of Chicago with the with the
2:28:35sun setting over Lake Michigan and the
2:28:37and the credits rolling. Right. Right.
2:28:40Yeah. Um that's an amazing story and the
2:28:43fact that it culminated in like a a walk
2:28:46and it sounds as if the walk was her
2:28:48suggestion. It was. Yeah. Yeah. She's
2:28:50like, I want to walk Chicago. Let's go
2:28:52walk Chicago. I was like, hey, you're
2:28:54speaking my language. That's wild, man.
2:28:56Where does that leave, Dad?
2:28:58Dad, dad is complicated. Uh, so dad, if
2:29:03you search his name, he has two results
2:29:04on Google. One is filing the two court
2:29:07records. One is filing to to stop paying
2:29:10child pay support payments and then the
2:29:12other is filing for bankruptcy. So he he
2:29:14can wait. He can wait a minute. Maybe
2:29:16maybe later. Also turns out dad has
2:29:18struggled with alcohol. So it's like
2:29:20there not a big surprise. But the
2:29:22biggest for me kind of lovely delightful
2:29:27surprise is that I have a sister, a half
2:29:29sister. She's 28. You know, this is also
2:29:31the weird thing is like how young kind
2:29:33of everyone is. Um 28, married. Um she
2:29:37didn't want to connect at first. She's
2:29:39from the dad's side and uh she's an only
2:29:42child and her and her father also
2:29:44haven't spoken for like 10 years. So
2:29:46there's all this kind of estrangement,
2:29:47weird, you know, in in kind of
2:29:49throughine through both of our lives.
2:29:51And uh I immediately I was just like I
2:29:54have a younger sister. And this is like
2:29:55something I had never thought about
2:29:56before, but I was just like filled with
2:29:58this almost like prednatural desire to
2:30:01just be like I've I've got you sis. Like
2:30:03let me protect you like immediately.
2:30:05Just so bizarre. And you know, we kind
2:30:08of reached out to her. She didn't want
2:30:09to connect. And then a couple months
2:30:10ago, she sort of like reconsidered and
2:30:12we connected and we did a video call and
2:30:15it was just immediately like, "Oh my
2:30:16god, you're a great person. You're a
2:30:18great person. I want to have you in my
2:30:19life." you know, and after the video
2:30:20call, she's like, "Hey, bro." And she's
2:30:22like, "Can I call you bro?" Like texting
2:30:24and and we've suddenly I think both
2:30:27realize like how incredible it is to
2:30:29like as an adult suddenly have this new
2:30:31sibling.
2:30:33And both of us be relatively grounded,
2:30:36not need the other, you know, it's not
2:30:37this weird like needy situation. And I
2:30:40thank God she didn't meet me in my 20s,
2:30:42you know, cuz I would have, you know, I
2:30:43would have been a very different person
2:30:45for her to meet. Um, and now we both get
2:30:49to kind of revel in and try to figure
2:30:50out what what does this mean? How how
2:30:52does this relationship work going
2:30:54forward? You know, I'm going on this
2:30:55book tour in America now and I'm going
2:30:57to be in Seattle and she's going to fly
2:30:58down and meet me and we're that's where
2:31:01we're going to meet for the first time.
2:31:02But it is so cool to have this sister,
2:31:05you know, and we text with each other,
2:31:08you know, a couple times a week and she
2:31:09asked me for advice. Hey, I'm changing
2:31:11jobs. What do you think? You know, you
2:31:12know, I heard you on, you know, this
2:31:14podcast. That was cool. You know, it's
2:31:15it's it's a it's been a real shock to go
2:31:20from having no family essentially cuz
2:31:22the my adopted family is so small to
2:31:25here's my mom and she has four brothers
2:31:29and sisters. They have a bunch of kids.
2:31:30I'm getting messages on Instagram from
2:31:32like random people in Wisconsin that's
2:31:34like, "Hey, I'm your I'm your cousin. Uh
2:31:36I run a flower shop. I'm 33. I Oh,
2:31:38because they know that Yeah. Yeah. So
2:31:41that's that's wild.
2:31:43after that meeting with my mom, she
2:31:45clearly went home and was like, "My son
2:31:48is Craig and he's awesome. I love him.
2:31:50Oh my god, check out all this cool stuff
2:31:51he's doing." So, it's just the whole
2:31:53family suddenly has me on the radar.
2:31:55This is a a fairy book ending, right? I
2:31:59mean, it's lucky for you. It's always
2:32:01been a journey to find home. Yeah. And
2:32:03you had to go all the way around the
2:32:05world and go on all these long walks,
2:32:07you know, all for it to culminate in
2:32:10Chicago. Yeah, I know. Which is an
2:32:12awesome and a walk. But it's there's
2:32:14there's a cool thread line in there
2:32:16which is this this search for a sense of
2:32:20belonging uh within yourself and you
2:32:23know how you fit into the world and who
2:32:25these people are and um you know
2:32:27adopting people and creating your own
2:32:29family along the way and then as a
2:32:32consequence of doing that growing into
2:32:34yourself so that you could be someone
2:32:36who is appropriate and available for you
2:32:40know the the family that gave birth to
2:32:42you. Mhm. Like there's a there's a cool
2:32:45full circle idea to this whole thing. It
2:32:49is cool. And now Thanksgiving is like
2:32:51this potentially very big event. Yeah.
2:32:53It's like oh my god might be 40 people
2:32:56at or it could go crazy and haywire.
2:32:58Yeah. I don't know. Right. In reflecting
2:33:02on on on your book like there there is I
2:33:05want I'm curious about this. like
2:33:07there's a there's a veneer of sadness in
2:33:10it, you know, like there's you can feel
2:33:12the grief without pointing a finger
2:33:13directly towards it. It's sort of
2:33:15layered with a a heaviness. Yeah. Um,
2:33:18but I think at the same time there's a
2:33:20there's a deeply hopeful aspect to your
2:33:24message, you know, which is when you
2:33:26slow down and you really allow yourself
2:33:30to feel and be present with those
2:33:34emotions and with your environment and
2:33:36with the people that you encounter, you
2:33:39are able to see the beauty in the world.
2:33:41And there's something optimistic about
2:33:44that. Um, and it feels like an urgent
2:33:47message for the moment. Yeah. Well, I
2:33:50appreciate your generous reading on
2:33:52that. Um, but yeah, there is a way in
2:33:55the countryside to focus on the
2:33:57negative, this depopulation and what's
2:33:59going to happen and almost like a
2:34:01natural disaster. Like there's there
2:34:03isn't a way to reverse this at this
2:34:04point. and trying to
2:34:08unpack why what's left still feels
2:34:12powerful in this in the last moments of
2:34:15this thing existing there of course
2:34:16there's going to be a sadness to that
2:34:18because it's disappearing um but also in
2:34:20the very Japanese way that that
2:34:22ephemererality of things the mon very
2:34:25Buddhist I mean I don't know a lot about
2:34:27Shintoism like what is the Shinto spin
2:34:30on that I mean the same but just this
2:34:32Shinto is fundamentally just this kind
2:34:33of animist
2:34:35respect of nature, you know, and you the
2:34:37shrines are often built around began as
2:34:41just natural objects. So, a beautiful
2:34:43tree, an incredible rock, and then that
2:34:45around that the shrine grows. The most
2:34:47important shrines are are those those
2:34:48sorts of things. And shape, isn't that
2:34:51the idea? Shape. Do you know that idea?
2:34:54I don't know. Um, basically the the
2:34:57beauty and the imperfection which
2:34:59applies uh, if I understand the word
2:35:01correctly to when nature reclaims, you
2:35:05know, buildings in decay or, you know,
2:35:07the landscape that has fallen into
2:35:09disrepair. I like that. Yeah, you start
2:35:12to see a lot of that. Yeah. Um but yeah,
2:35:16Shinto kind of leans into that because
2:35:18the shrine sort of exists in in deep
2:35:21conversation with nature and then a lot
2:35:22of times there's built rebuilding built
2:35:24into it. So, like the Eay shrine every
2:35:2620 years gets rebuilt next to next to
2:35:28itself. And you kind of see the
2:35:3120-year-old shrine and the brand new
2:35:32shrine next to each other. And they use
2:35:34Hinoi Cyprus to build them. And after 20
2:35:37years, you just see how nature is
2:35:39already reclaiming it. And then you see
2:35:41the brand new fresh. It almost looks
2:35:44like it's lit from within. It's glowing.
2:35:45It's beautiful. You understand why they
2:35:47use it because Shinto is about purity
2:35:48and kind of birth. And uh Buddhism is
2:35:51sort of where you have funerals. That's
2:35:52where like you know you you you go do a
2:35:53funeral at a Buddhist temple but Shinto
2:35:55is all about birth and life and things
2:35:57like that and to see them side by side
2:35:59is actually quite profound and every 20
2:36:02years you kind of get that ceremony and
2:36:04it's a way of marking time. So there's a
2:36:06lot of time marking in Shinto as well.
2:36:08It's it's really beautiful. Final thing
2:36:11before we end this. Uh how can we all
2:36:16uh pull a page out of the book book of
2:36:18John and start you know like practicing
2:36:21this in our own lives like how do you
2:36:23translate his language into something
2:36:26that we can do? Yeah. I mean the reason
2:36:30I I guess sort of got addicted to these
2:36:32walks or this way of working creatively
2:36:35is because for me having that
2:36:38framework made it impossible not to do
2:36:40the work and as we've talked about mood
2:36:42and action following each other and so
2:36:46it started you know in my 20s trying to
2:36:48trying to break with the alcohol with
2:36:50the running and it's like okay creating
2:36:51a little framework of running to break
2:36:53that that habit or whatever and then
2:36:55wanting to do more writing and wanting
2:36:56to do more looking deliberately And so
2:36:58building accidentally falling into
2:37:00understanding that these walks, these
2:37:01long walks could allow me to do that. Um
2:37:03so I would say starting to look at what
2:37:06simple structures you could build start
2:37:08to build up from from very small to it
2:37:10could be very complex as I'm doing with
2:37:12the walks. Um to enable the thing you to
2:37:15do the thing you want to do. And I said
2:37:16the one thing that everyone can do that
2:37:18most everyone is doing now the wrong way
2:37:20is take your phone out of your your
2:37:21bedroom. like that for me is kind of the
2:37:24reason why I I did the I knew to
2:37:26disconnect on the walks was because
2:37:28about 15 years ago right after the
2:37:30iPhones kind of got released I I started
2:37:32going offline at 10 p.m. and I wouldn't
2:37:35allow myself back online till noon or
2:37:371:00 p.m. the next day because having
2:37:38that morning, that completely offline
2:37:41morning, that was when the best writing
2:37:43I was doing happened. That was when the
2:37:45most generative creative work happened.
2:37:47And I could feel almost like dopamine,
2:37:50little guppies, you know, like sort of
2:37:52like reaching for the fish food of
2:37:53dopamine um in my brain for give me
2:37:57news, give me social media. And that
2:37:58freaked me out. And so creating this
2:38:00rigid framework where you go offline at
2:38:02night and then you don't come back
2:38:04online to lunch. If you can do that, not
2:38:05not a lot of people can do that, but you
2:38:07can probably do it on the weekend. And
2:38:08you can certainly put your phone in a
2:38:10place that you won't see until lunch.
2:38:13And I think that is also critical. It's
2:38:14like don't just put your phone in the
2:38:16living room on the table. Put it in a
2:38:18box in the corner of your garage or
2:38:20something where you have to deliberately
2:38:21go to that place to grab it in the next
2:38:24day. And try just do that for a week,
2:38:26you know? Try doing that for a week
2:38:28where your bedroom is a phone free place
2:38:30and your mornings are phone free. And I
2:38:32I guarantee you there's going to be some
2:38:34kind of like richness of creative act
2:38:36that just naturally bubbles up. And I've
2:38:38and I've taken that I've been doing that
2:38:39for many many years. And I just took
2:38:41that and said, "Okay, what if we apply
2:38:42it to the whole walk?" And it turns out
2:38:44it works. It's really powerful. That's
2:38:46great advice. Super cool. Um have you
2:38:50ever done like a walk one of these walks
2:38:52in the United States from like
2:38:54Philadelphia to Boston? Like I think the
2:38:56experience might be a little bit
2:38:57different. We haven't. I mean, Kevin and
2:38:59I are like, "Well, let's do a walk in
2:39:00America, but there's no infrastructure
2:39:02for it." Like, there's no Yeah, that's
2:39:03the problem. You're just going to be on
2:39:05some thoroughfare, you know, where
2:39:07there's it was just 7-Elevens and gas
2:39:09stations or nothing. Even here, like I'm
2:39:11staying 1.4 km from here. And I looked
2:39:14at Google Maps and Google Maps the route
2:39:17to walk it was like an hour and 20
2:39:18minutes cuz it's like there's like an 11
2:39:20lane highway, you know? It's like
2:39:22America is so uh it's not oriented
2:39:25around it's not conducive to the kind of
2:39:27experience. You can do it, but it's not
2:39:29moving you in the direction of the kind
2:39:30of experience you're trying to have. And
2:39:32people kind of look at you like a crazy
2:39:33person. I mean, you can do the
2:39:34Appalachian Trail, but you're just not
2:39:36going to run into you're not going to
2:39:37have those experiences. Well, and there
2:39:38isn't um you're camping the whole way.
2:39:40So, like like Europe is is great. I
2:39:43mean, Spain, the commamino is like the
2:39:45most perfect logistic infused walk. And
2:39:48you can do it as cheaply. You can do it
2:39:4910 bucks a day if you want the commamino
2:39:51or you can spend a couple hundred bucks
2:39:52a stay in really nice places. But like
2:39:54it's there. The infrastructure is there.
2:39:55You can camp if you want to. It's hardly
2:39:57off the beaten path at this point. It's
2:39:59like a It's like a a destination. It's
2:40:01like a tourist destination thing to do
2:40:03and check the box. Well, I thought that
2:40:06way, too. Have you ever walked No, but
2:40:07it keeps coming up and and I know a lot
2:40:09of people who have done it. So, at this
2:40:10point now, I feel I have resistance to
2:40:13it. That's exactly how I felt. That's
2:40:14exactly how I felt. And Kevin and I did
2:40:16it in 2018. We did the last 100k of the
2:40:19Portuguese commamino. So, there's like
2:40:21there's English commamino, French
2:40:22commamino, Portuguese. When everyone
2:40:23talks about the commamino, it's usually
2:40:24the French. So, it's over the Pyrenees
2:40:26into Spain across to Santiago. And we
2:40:29did the Portuguese, the last 100k of the
2:40:30Portuguese. No one was on that. And then
2:40:33before I did that with Kevin, I said,
2:40:34"Well, if I'm going all the way out
2:40:35there, let me walk the first 150k of the
2:40:37Camino from from France." And I was
2:40:39like, "This is going to be terrible."
2:40:40I'm like, "This is going to be
2:40:41Disneyland." I I was so negative on it.
2:40:43And I started it and we, you know, I did
2:40:45it with a friend and we did 8 days. And
2:40:48I was so heartbroken to leave. It is
2:40:51magical. Even with the people, even the
2:40:54the the fact that it's a destination,
2:40:56you can't deny the fact that what you're
2:40:59doing is hard. Doing a walk, you know,
2:41:01this 600k walk where you're taking 5
2:41:03weeks or whatever to do it. That is
2:41:06demonstrabably a difficult thing to do,
2:41:08even if it is a touristy thing. Everyone
2:41:10is is fully in on it. And it's so
2:41:12surreal to be with a bunch of other
2:41:14people that are doing the same hard
2:41:15thing that you're doing. And it's kind
2:41:16of cool. And you move at different paces
2:41:17and you meet all different people. I
2:41:19like I would so highly recommend if
2:41:21someone is looking to do a long walk and
2:41:22kind of wants to do what if I
2:41:24disconnect, what if I go offline, what
2:41:25if I don't look at the news or whatever,
2:41:27go do the commamino alone. It's built
2:41:30for solo walkers cuz you're going to
2:41:32naturally meet as many or as few people
2:41:33as you want. And it's it it is a
2:41:36profoundly magical thing. And getting to
2:41:37Santiago, even though millions of people
2:41:40are doing this walk, getting to Santiago
2:41:41still feels like, holy crap, this is
2:41:44this is special. The Camino feels like
2:41:46the new psychedelics.
2:41:49like psychedelics for a period of it was
2:41:51just coming up constantly on the
2:41:52podcast. But now like the chamino is
2:41:54taking its place. So there's something
2:41:56for you know here for me to look at and
2:41:58I should say like a week from today I'm
2:42:00getting back surgery. Okay, like a a
2:42:02very serious back surgery and I have a
2:42:05you know I'm going to have a very long
2:42:06road to recovery. But there's going to
2:42:08be you know a good many many many many
2:42:11months when all I all I'm going to be
2:42:13able to do is walk. Okay. And maybe
2:42:16it'll stay that way. I don't know. So
2:42:17like walking is like, you know, this is
2:42:20what's showing up for me. Yeah. Yeah.
2:42:23Well, there are, you know, Europe is
2:42:25replete with amazing trails and England,
2:42:28you know, with the right away you can
2:42:29kind of make up trails everywhere. It's
2:42:31it's pretty special. Um, and it's, you
2:42:33know, America just doesn't have the
2:42:34history to have that. So, what's the big
2:42:37walk on your wish list? Walk wish list
2:42:40of like any walk in the world. I want to
2:42:42do more walks in Ireland. Um, I've never
2:42:45been I've only been to Belfast. I just
2:42:46want to I just like Irish people and I
2:42:48just feel like I'd like meeting more
2:42:50Irish people. So that's a big one.
2:42:52They're the they're the nicest, kindest,
2:42:54most generous, welcoming people you're
2:42:55ever going to meet. Amazing. And um I'd
2:42:58love to do more in Italy. The
2:42:59Dolommites, walking the Dolommites, I
2:43:01think would be incredible. Um so there's
2:43:03a few of those and then I would like to
2:43:04do the full Camino cuz I've only walked
2:43:07the first like 150k and the last 100k.
2:43:10So I'd like to do the pump out the whole
2:43:12thing at some point. In Italy, I know
2:43:14there's uh a trail system that goes all
2:43:17the way from Sicily all the way to the
2:43:19north that's basically historically been
2:43:22the routes that the viters like the
2:43:25grape the the grape farmers would take
2:43:27to transport their product or whatever
2:43:29and they've just been there for like
2:43:30hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of
2:43:31years. So there's like an ultra multi
2:43:35whatever ultra race, but I'm sure that
2:43:38would be an epic walk because you're not
2:43:40like on the road, but you're going
2:43:42through these villages and townships and
2:43:44stuff the whole way. Yeah. Anyway,
2:43:46sounds like a good one. This was great,
2:43:47dude. Um, this felt like an old school
2:43:51uh podcast. Like just like really really
2:43:54like ner like soul nourishing. Yeah.
2:43:56like really lovely to meet you and I
2:43:58think that your work is beautiful and
2:44:01artistic and um such a meaningful
2:44:04expression that's much needed right now
2:44:06and I I appreciate you coming here today
2:44:08and sharing with me. Well, thank you.
2:44:10Yeah. All right, buddy. Good luck with
2:44:11the book. Thanks. Things indeed do
2:44:14become other things. They do. I know.
2:44:17And they will continue to do so. Yeah.
2:44:19Um cheers, man. Thanks. Peace.

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