“Why did you not join the IRA?” Gerry Adams (FULL INTERVIEW) - BBC News — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00now then few political lives divide
2. 0:02opinion like jerry adams
3. 0:04for some he's a man of blood who
4. 0:06defended many ira atrocities during the
5. 0:08troubles in northern ireland
6. 0:09to others he's a courageous peacemaker
7. 0:12who was instrumental in the good friday
8. 0:14agreement 20 years ago
9. 0:15after 35 years as president of shin fein
10. 0:18mr adams is standing down
11. 0:20this month and handing over to a new
12. 0:22generation of republican leaders i sat
13. 0:24down with him last week and done dalt
14. 0:25near the irish border to reflect on his
15. 0:27life campaigning through united ireland
16. 0:30i began by asking him
17. 0:31whether he had failed in that endeavor
18. 0:34no because when when i joined sinn fein
19. 0:38which is over 50 years ago
20. 0:40it was banned it was outlawed
21. 0:43there was no prospect really of a
22. 0:45strategy for
23. 0:46irish unity if i look back now half a
24. 0:49million people vote for sinn fein
25. 0:51we're the second largest party in the
26. 0:53north there's now
27. 0:54a peaceful way to get irish undo your
28. 0:57old comrade martin mcguinness
29. 0:59never saw it do you think you'll see it
30. 1:01yes if i
31. 1:02if i live long enough and you know what
32. 1:04martin's passing
33. 1:05i suppose proves to all of us that you
34. 1:08can't be certain about
35. 1:09anything you know martin i miss martin
36. 1:11every single day
37. 1:12so as an irish
38. 1:16republic is irish unity inevitable no it
39. 1:19isn't
40. 1:20it's only going to happen if we work at
41. 1:23it
42. 1:24i come from a very very straightforward
43. 1:26position
44. 1:27i want to see an end to the british
45. 1:29connection with ireland how much does
46. 1:31the brexit vote help your
47. 1:33ideal of the united ireland i think we
48. 1:36need to be very very careful
49. 1:38that we don't see
50. 1:41brexit as something which can be
51. 1:44exploited
52. 1:46uh brexit is disastrous
53. 1:49for the people of ireland the the
54. 1:51british government are not at all
55. 1:53clear about what their future
56. 1:54relationship with the european union's
57. 1:56going to be and they are arguing that
58. 1:59they're going to leave the customs union
59. 2:01and they are going to lead the single
60. 2:03market and that will
61. 2:05end up a complete disaster for people
62. 2:07here on the end of ireland
63. 2:09there's the the the agreement that was
64. 2:11made recently
65. 2:12which moved the negotiations into their
66. 2:14second phase
67. 2:16was a fudge it's filled with
68. 2:18contradictions
69. 2:19the the fudge is not always bad well
70. 2:22it's not always bad if it gets you over
71. 2:24a particular
72. 2:25difficulty tons of business people
73. 2:29are totally dependent on the flow back
74. 2:32and forth of business and commerce
75. 2:34across what is an invisible border
76. 2:37when a hard economic border comes back
77. 2:39that's going to stunt that it's going to
78. 2:41destroy them if
79. 2:42it comes back if it comes back one of
80. 2:44your own mps mr hazard has said that if
81. 2:46it comes back
82. 2:47those customs posts and those hard
83. 2:50pieces of infrastructure along the
84. 2:51border
85. 2:52could become a target for distant
86. 2:53republican groups and mass civil
87. 2:55disobedience and we could see the return
88. 2:57of violence around the border do you
89. 2:58share that worry
90. 3:00yes i would i he didn't say it was
91. 3:05likely he said it was a concern and that
92. 3:07one one has to be concerned
93. 3:09that this would be exploited but look
94. 3:11you see
95. 3:12people have got used after decades of
96. 3:16conflict
97. 3:17people have got used to peace
98. 3:20so the images which you may have which i
99. 3:22may have with border checkpoints and of
100. 3:25heavy patrols and they belong on the
101. 3:27side that all belongs to history
102. 3:29and nobody wants that back now these
103. 3:31debates are going to be thrashed out on
104. 3:33the four
105. 3:34floor of the house of commons and there
106. 3:35are going to be some very substantial
107. 3:36votes
108. 3:37if shin fein took up its seats and even
109. 3:40voted once
110. 3:41or twice you could change the course of
111. 3:43british history
112. 3:44and change the course of history for the
113. 3:46whole island of ireland is it really
114. 3:48worth
115. 3:48republican principle not taking those
116. 3:51seats i'm not engaging in those votes
117. 3:52well before i deal with that let me tell
118. 3:54you the solution to this problem
119. 3:56the solution to this problem is spatial
120. 3:58designated status
121. 4:00for the north within the european union
122. 4:02and that
123. 4:03is doable the irish government don't
124. 4:06like this idea and nor do they like it
125. 4:08in brussels they think it sets too many
126. 4:10precedents for the rest of the eu
127. 4:12well i don't know whether they like it
128. 4:13or not because they're very flexible in
129. 4:15terms of how
130. 4:16they deal with the european union and
131. 4:18its relationships with the various
132. 4:20different uh
133. 4:21states and with political will that is
134. 4:23very very very doable now coming back to
135. 4:25the issue of
136. 4:27uh to get taken our state south
137. 4:29westminster we just received the largest
138. 4:31vote that we ever received
139. 4:33and you have leverage no sorry sorry
140. 4:35andrew
141. 4:36we when we get a mandate obey that
142. 4:40mandate
143. 4:41and stay true to that mandate what dad
144. 4:43wrote
145. 4:44was a vote for no british involvement
146. 4:47in our affairs the center of political
147. 4:50gravity
148. 4:51being on the island of ireland so we
149. 4:53will not portray those people who had a
150. 4:55choice
151. 4:55let's let's talk if we know about the
152. 4:57past why did you not join the ira
153. 5:00because i was active in sinn fein when
154. 5:03the ira was just
155. 5:05non-existent in the 1960s
156. 5:09after the border campaign that the whole
157. 5:12uh
158. 5:13trajectory within republicanism was to
159. 5:16build politically
160. 5:17and i'm i'm one of the very small group
161. 5:19of people
162. 5:20who were activists before
163. 5:24the pogroms in 1969 i'm one of the very
164. 5:26few republicans in there and i haven't
165. 5:28said that
166. 5:29and you know it's it's a matter of
167. 5:31history the area is gone
168. 5:32andrew the area is gone and i mean my my
169. 5:36position has been consistent that i
170. 5:37was not a member of the ira but i've
171. 5:39never distanced myself well that's the
172. 5:41only idea so that's were you never
173. 5:43tempted to join
174. 5:44no no i wasn't no no i i i have my role
175. 5:47in the struggle i like to think of
176. 5:49because you know you always supported
177. 5:52the armed struggle we always defended
178. 5:54the ira
179. 5:55you were treated by members of the ira
180. 5:57as a kind of commander when you're in
181. 5:58long cash and everybody um who studied
182. 6:02you i mean i
183. 6:02i range from british politicians to
184. 6:04journalists they all think you were in
185. 6:06the ira you always say no i wasn't and i
186. 6:08wasn't on the army council
187. 6:10why is that everybody else including the
188. 6:12people who left their testimony in
189. 6:14boston and so forth
190. 6:15are sure that you were you'd have to ask
191. 6:17them that andrew
192. 6:18and you know someday i'll do an
193. 6:21interview and they said she won't arrive
194. 6:23no
195. 6:23i don't mind dealing with the issue but
196. 6:25i mix the point again
197. 6:27see the ira have gone
198. 6:31i did defend the ira but i also was very
199. 6:35critical
200. 6:36of the ira terms i don't i don't condone
201. 6:38everything that the ira did
202. 6:39you were very very vociferous and very
203. 6:41clear in condemning the manchester
204. 6:43ruining
205. 6:44arena bombing by an islamic group what
206. 6:46is the moral difference between
207. 6:48that for instance and the birmingham pub
208. 6:49bombs well birmingham bubbles were wrong
209. 6:52i condemn that as well i don't have any
210. 6:54compunction about that but those
211. 6:56again those were innocent people going
212. 6:58in just to have a pint of mild and
213. 6:59listen to a jukebox
214. 7:00but i'll give you my answer to that i
215. 7:02mean i i
216. 7:04would wish that no one
217. 7:07no one had been killed or injured in
218. 7:10in the course of the conflict at some
219. 7:12point you changed your mind about the
220. 7:14physical force process and about the use
221. 7:17of violence
222. 7:18when and why did you change your mind
223. 7:20because we were able to create
224. 7:22an alternative when you can put forward
225. 7:25an alternative
226. 7:28sensible people will embrace that
227. 7:30alternative because no one
228. 7:32wants to be either supporting or part no
229. 7:34one's sensible
230. 7:35wants to be supporting or part of armed
231. 7:38action so once you
232. 7:39present an alternative that's when you
233. 7:41close down the options when you say to
234. 7:43people so it was tactical rather than
235. 7:44moral it wasn't you saying this is
236. 7:46morally wrong killing people like this
237. 7:47is the wrong thing to do morally
238. 7:50well it's no longer works is what you
239. 7:52were saying in a sense
240. 7:53no no i'm sorry andre i'm better able to
241. 7:57tell you what i think on these matters
242. 7:59than used to put words into my
243. 8:01mouth if we want to talk about morality
244. 8:04you need a longer shoe than this
245. 8:09but look you can only make moral
246. 8:11judgments
247. 8:12about people when you walk in their
248. 8:14shoes and that's
249. 8:16that's thankfully is we're talking here
250. 8:19about history
251. 8:21we're talking about something that is
252. 8:23there was not a moment when you looked
253. 8:24at what was the death of tim
254. 8:26parry or some kid or whatever and you
255. 8:28thought this has gone far enough
256. 8:31and i said that it was a moral revulsion
257. 8:33oh and i said that at the time
258. 8:35sure how could anyone even if it's
259. 8:37accidental her could anyone stand over
260. 8:39the killing of a child or stand over the
261. 8:41killing of a civilian
262. 8:42that's different modern entirely if you
263. 8:44want to be into all of that
264. 8:45if it's soldiers versus soldiers but
265. 8:47then the awfulness
266. 8:49of and the horror of war you cannot
267. 8:52stand over some of those incidents
268. 8:54you spent a lot of time sitting on the
269. 8:55other side of the table from a whole
270. 8:57stream of british leaders
271. 8:58very very early days ted heath and
272. 9:00willie whitelaw and so forth and then
273. 9:02john major
274. 9:03tony blair peter mandelson moe mullen
275. 9:06which of those we did most for peace in
276. 9:08ireland in your view
277. 9:11well i suppose uh tony blair
278. 9:15uh you know and i would have big issues
279. 9:18with him around iraq and
280. 9:20other matters and we actually myself and
281. 9:22martin warned him
282. 9:23about not getting involved in iraq oh
283. 9:26yes yes we said to him
284. 9:27don't don't do look at the irish
285. 9:30experience
286. 9:31don't go in there but he
287. 9:34he he was given
288. 9:37an opportunity if you like on a plate
289. 9:40and he seized it
290. 9:41so tony blair and now tony blair's party
291. 9:44is led by a very very different man
292. 9:45who's always supported the united
293. 9:47ireland he's been a big big backer of
294. 9:49yours over the years
295. 9:50what difference would it make to the
296. 9:52island of ireland and to shin fein and
297. 9:54your cause to have jeremy corbyn
298. 9:56as british prime minister would you
299. 9:58might well be well i would like to see
300. 10:00jeremy in that position for the benefit
301. 10:03of people in britain
302. 10:04leaving ireland out of it i think
303. 10:06germany is an outstanding
304. 10:08uh politician and i let's put ireland
305. 10:11back in
306. 10:11i hope my endorsement of him hasn't used
307. 10:13against him in the time ahead
308. 10:15uh but yes he and ken livingstone and
309. 10:17others kept faith
310. 10:19and they were the people who said when
311. 10:21others said no
312. 10:22talk they were the people who were open
313. 10:24to conversation about how to
314. 10:26deal with uh conflict and how to get
315. 10:29conflict resolution
316. 10:30processes but look that's not preempt
317. 10:33the next
318. 10:34of course general election jerry adams
319. 10:37are you a man of faith
320. 10:39yes i am yes um so one day you will be
321. 10:42judged by your maker
322. 10:44and when you're being judged by your
323. 10:45maker will you be able to say i have
324. 10:47clean hands
325. 10:49well the one thing that i understand
326. 10:51about faith
327. 10:52and you know as you get older you
328. 10:54reflect on all of these things the one
329. 10:56thing i know about jesus is that he
330. 10:58forgave
331. 10:59he didn't grow in condemning treat
332. 11:01people with dignity
333. 11:02and people will respond in a dignified
334. 11:04way treat people badly and people will
335. 11:07respond
336. 11:08badly nobody gets to write their own
337. 11:10obituary but what would be the headline
338. 11:12on yours
339. 11:13well god knows i'm not really interested
340. 11:16you know some people say to me
341. 11:17what's your legacy i won't be around
342. 11:22no none of us will jerry adams thank you
343. 11:23very much for talking to us