Why China is accused of 'forced assimilation' | Global News Podcast — Transcript

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1. 0:00Welcome to the Global News podcast. I'm
2. 0:01Ankur Desai. On this episode, I'm joined
3. 0:04by BBC Monitoring's China analyst, Kerry
4. 0:07Allen. Kerry, it is always good to have
5. 0:09you on. Um particularly about a story
6. 0:11like this, which is quite interesting.
7. 0:12China has introduced something they're
8. 0:14calling a unity law, which some people
9. 0:17are saying it roads the rights of
10. 0:19minority. So, just get into this for us
11. 0:22and just explain what the law is and how
12. 0:23it affects certain certain minorities, I
13. 0:25guess.
14. 0:26>> Yeah, of course. So, this law's full
15. 0:27name is the ethnic unity and progress
16. 0:29promotion law. And it was passed in
17. 0:31March earlier this year during what's
18. 0:34known as China's two sessions, which are
19. 0:36meetings of China's top legislature and
20. 0:38its top advisory body. And they decided
21. 0:41that this law needed to happen because
22. 0:43they felt that it created a legal
23. 0:45foundation for national cohesion within
24. 0:47China amongst its different ethnic
25. 0:49groups, of which all together there are
26. 0:5156. The majority in China are known as
27. 0:54the Han Chinese and they they account
28. 0:56for about 92% and then 8% of the
29. 0:59remainder that make up Tibetans,
30. 1:01Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Koreans, they make up
31. 1:04lots of different demographics.
32. 1:06>> And and in terms of how this has been
33. 1:09reported, can you just give us a bit of
34. 1:10an understanding as to how the Chinese
35. 1:12government have talked about it and
36. 1:14promoted it and what some critics and
37. 1:16skeptics have said?
38. 1:18>> Yeah, so so official media have been
39. 1:21saying that this
40. 1:22this actually, as they see it, is an
41. 1:24opportunity to promote ethnic culture
42. 1:27and language that they say that it
43. 1:29protects um different um different
44. 1:32ethnic groups within China.
45. 1:34So, they see it as a protective
46. 1:36mechanism.
47. 1:37They've also been saying that it also
48. 1:39gives the opportunity to
49. 1:41to combat terrorism, separatism,
50. 1:44religious extremism.
51. 1:46So, they're saying that it's it's a way
52. 1:48to to protect the nation as a whole by
53. 1:50bringing them together.
54. 1:52But critics from outside of China, uh,
55. 1:55talking rights groups, but we're also
56. 1:57talking overseas, uh, people in Taiwan,
57. 1:59for example. Um, they've seen it as uh,
58. 2:02as a way of China enforcing long-arms
59. 2:05jurisdiction. So, so what they see this
60. 2:08law is doing is basically deciding
61. 2:11what's what what is separatism, what is
62. 2:15um, what is extremism. And uh, and
63. 2:17they're saying that um, this law might
64. 2:19be used to um, target people overseas. I
65. 2:23mean, factoring in that China has a lot
66. 2:25of tensions with Taiwan at the moment,
67. 2:27um, that it might target Taiwanese and
68. 2:29say they're separatists, they violate
69. 2:32this uh, this law, um, so we can hold
70. 2:35them criminally accountable.
71. 2:36>> Yeah, there have been some prominent
72. 2:37critics of this as well. Well, we've
73. 2:39talked about the fact that it can affect
74. 2:41Uyghurs, for example, Mongolians, um,
75. 2:44and you mentioned um, Taiwan there.
76. 2:46There has been criticism from there and
77. 2:48also further afield abroad. Um, we we
78. 2:50played on uh, the newsroom program
79. 2:52yesterday, um, a clip of Richard Gere,
80. 2:54the actor, a famous Hollywood actor who
81. 2:56who was talking about it and how this
82. 2:58affects people abroad. So, that this is
83. 3:00getting quite a bit of coverage, um, not
84. 3:02just in China, but away from China, too.
85. 3:05>> It is, absolutely, yes. Um, there have
86. 3:07been government officials in in the West
87. 3:09who've said that um, that this could
88. 3:12create an environment where people um,
89. 3:16where where people who've left China and
90. 3:18settled overseas, um, don't feel safe.
91. 3:21Um, so they feel that they have to uh,
92. 3:23self-censor themselves. Um, they uh,
93. 3:26that if they're seen as dissidents, um,
94. 3:29or separatists, that um, that they might
95. 3:31um, they might be targeted by this law.
96. 3:34And so, governments are starting to move
97. 3:35towards um, looking at enforcement that
98. 3:38they can put in that protects people,
99. 3:40overseas Chinese, um, in the event that
100. 3:43this could happen.
101. 3:44>> And you mentioned dissidents there as
102. 3:46well, overseas dissidents. What tactics
103. 3:47have China used then to intimidate
104. 3:50overseas dissidents in the past?
105. 3:53>> Well, um a lot of people have actually
106. 3:55compared this law to uh a controversial
107. 3:57law that was introduced in 2020 in Hong
108. 3:59Kong, which was called the National
109. 4:01Security Law. Um a lot of critics of
110. 4:03this law have said that uh what this
111. 4:06does is it criminalizes um very loose
112. 4:09ideas about what what is regarded as
113. 4:12separatism, and uh and therefore can
114. 4:14hold people criminally accountable. Um
115. 4:16so, one of the ways that people are
116. 4:18thinking this law might be used is to
117. 4:21make people feel that they can't speak
118. 4:23openly when they're overseas or or make
119. 4:26people who've left China feel that they
120. 4:28can't speak openly for fear of
121. 4:30persecution. Um there there have been um
122. 4:33the tactics of people um being pressured
123. 4:36online, intimidated on the streets,
124. 4:38groups of Chinese um targeting uh for
125. 4:41example, Hong Kong dissidents who left
126. 4:43after
127. 4:45the National Security Law was imposed.
128. 4:47Um so, uh so there are
129. 4:49considerations at the moment about
130. 4:51whether similar tactics might come into
131. 4:52play, whether um people who are targeted
132. 4:55by this law if uh if if critics are
133. 4:59saying, you know, this is how it could
134. 5:00be used,
135. 5:01um that they could be held under arrest,
136. 5:04false arrest, um or just simply
137. 5:07intimidated, told, you know, information
138. 5:10spread about them online, smeared
139. 5:12online, uh followed in the streets,
140. 5:14basically made to feel unsafe as a
141. 5:15whole.
142. 5:16>> Yeah, because uh people raise a question
143. 5:18about what sort of powers does this give
144. 5:19China, especially when you talk about
145. 5:21people who are who are who are abroad in
146. 5:22for foreign countries and in foreign
147. 5:24territories where where there are other
148. 5:26laws obviously of that own country um
149. 5:29put in place.
150. 5:31>> Yeah, this is why Western media have uh
151. 5:33have said that this law might give
152. 5:35uh opportunity to what it calls
153. 5:37long-arms jurisdiction, China
154. 5:39um extending its reach. And there's a
155. 5:41certain irony in this, because at the
156. 5:42moment China is trying to send a big
157. 5:44message to Western countries about how
158. 5:46it can be a unifier, how it can unite
159. 5:48other countries
160. 5:50working more closely
161. 5:52as a friend of nations very much
162. 5:54targeting the US and saying that the US
163. 5:57has become an enemy of many nations
164. 5:59around the world because of tariffs,
165. 6:01because of wars in areas like the Middle
166. 6:04East. And so China wants to be seen as
167. 6:07this this friend and and a lot of the
168. 6:09state media messaging saying that this
169. 6:11law is is to harmonize ethnic minority
170. 6:15groups to bring them together.
171. 6:17At the same time critics are saying that
172. 6:19it might be used to do what China very
173. 6:23much accuses the US of to extend its
174. 6:25reach to persecute and and to harass
175. 6:30ethnic groups and to make them feel
176. 6:32unsafe, to make them feel that they
177. 6:33could go anywhere in the world and they
178. 6:36could be followed, they could be held
179. 6:38under false arrest, they could be
180. 6:40made to feel that they can't go about
181. 6:41their lives.
182. 6:43So so yeah, this is why this law is
183. 6:46getting a lot of discussion both within
184. 6:48China and also outside of China. It's
185. 6:50it's the question of how is it going to
186. 6:52be enforced?
187. 6:54How are people going to be treated
188. 6:56particularly in Taiwan where separatism
189. 6:58makes up so much of the modern day
190. 7:01narrative. There's there's constant
191. 7:02criticisms that Taiwan's government are
192. 7:05separatists. Are they going to feel that
193. 7:08if they go overseas and they do
194. 7:10foreign conferences or foreign speeches
195. 7:12that they're not going to feel safe
196. 7:14because they might be held accountable
197. 7:16under this law which
198. 7:17at the moment the
199. 7:19the the kind of the parameters of it are
200. 7:21very vague.
201. 7:23>> Yeah, it's interesting. You you talk
202. 7:24about this in terms of how it's trying
203. 7:26to I guess China polish its image
204. 7:28abroad. They've hosted a lot of world
205. 7:30leaders. That the plan is I think for Xi
206. 7:31Jinping to go over to the United States
207. 7:33as well and
208. 7:35go over and meet Donald Trump after he'd
209. 7:37hosted him and not too long ago. I'm
210. 7:39just reading here the members of the
211. 7:40European Parliament have already written
212. 7:41warning uh member states to consider
213. 7:44suspending extradition treaties with
214. 7:46China if it tried to target European
215. 7:48citizens. That's quite interesting and
216. 7:50and that that's quite a
217. 7:52a strong strong step from the European
218. 7:54Parliament to to announce that.
219. 7:56>> It's not just in Europe where um
220. 7:58governments have been talking about
221. 7:59this. Um there was also a bipartisan
222. 8:02group of 14 US lawmakers that um in the
223. 8:04last 24 hours have been urging US
224. 8:06Secretary of State Marco Rubio to
225. 8:08publicly condemn this law. And they're
226. 8:11saying that it it codifies the forced
227. 8:12assimilation of ethnic minority groups.
228. 8:15>> What do we make of China um trying to
229. 8:18expand its reach abroad as well? Because
230. 8:20um
231. 8:21here in London in the UK, there there is
232. 8:23this talk, isn't there, of the the
233. 8:24Chinese super embassy. Um is this China
234. 8:28trying to to to show that it's going to
235. 8:30have
236. 8:31such a wide reach that if they were to
237. 8:33try to enforce a law like this or to
238. 8:35hold people to account, they will be
239. 8:37able to because their presence will very
240. 8:38much be in the west as well as uh in the
241. 8:41east.
242. 8:43>> Well, China is definitely wanting to
243. 8:44capitalize on a lot of nations' fraught
244. 8:47ties with the US at the moment and to be
245. 8:49seen as this country that um that
246. 8:52leaders turn to in when when there are
247. 8:54problems in the world. Um so one of the
248. 8:57state media messages that's been coming
249. 8:58out quite a lot over the last year is
250. 9:01how many foreign leaders have actually
251. 9:03traveled to Beijing that Xi Jinping has
252. 9:05hosted. Uh so so China definitely wants
253. 9:09to while while countries are critical of
254. 9:12uh of Trump's tariffs, but also critical
255. 9:14of the wars going on in the Middle East
256. 9:16and also in Ukraine, um China has wanted
257. 9:19to say that it it it can be this this
258. 9:22friend to the world. But in terms of why
259. 9:24China wants this presence through
260. 9:26initiatives like the Belt and Road, for
261. 9:27example, um why China wants to
262. 9:31be become more apparent um in other
263. 9:33nations. Um the reason for this is
264. 9:35because China has a shrinking population
265. 9:37and uh and it does fear that its labor
266. 9:41market is going to shrink over time,
267. 9:43that there aren't going to be the people
268. 9:45to actually look after
269. 9:47a very large growing elderly
270. 9:49demographic. So, it's more important
271. 9:52than ever now that China
272. 9:54makes inroads into other countries,
273. 9:56forms friendships with other nations, um
274. 9:59becomes really close so that there's
275. 10:00much more free flow between China and
276. 10:02other countries. But, in order to do
277. 10:04that, it also wants to maintain its grip
278. 10:07in terms of Communist Party leadership
279. 10:09and its own messaging. So, China really
280. 10:11wants to make sure that that penetrates
281. 10:14out to the rest of the world and that
282. 10:16the rest of the world agrees with this.
283. 10:18But, from its own perspective, the
284. 10:20reason for this is because it's reliant
285. 10:22on being able to keep its labor market
286. 10:25going and being able to keep functioning
287. 10:27as a strong superpower that it's become
288. 10:29seen as.
289. 10:30>> And just finally, Carrie, in your role
290. 10:32in monitoring, you're able to sort of
291. 10:34see reaction to stories like this. And I
292. 10:36can imagine it would be difficult for
293. 10:38for people from Mongolian backgrounds,
294. 10:40Uyghurs as well, to to talk about this
295. 10:43and react to this. But, have we seen
296. 10:44much from their communities in terms of
297. 10:47how they feel about this? And I guess
298. 10:48how they can move forward with their
299. 10:50lives and still hold their identity
300. 10:54without it being eroded?
301. 10:56>> It's very hard to see such messaging
302. 10:58because they make up ethnic minorities
303. 11:00make up such a small sector of the
304. 11:02population. So, only about 8%. Um so, uh
305. 11:07and what you do have on Chinese social
306. 11:09media platforms like Sina Weibo, for
307. 11:11example, which is the equivalent of a
308. 11:12platform like Facebook, um you do get
309. 11:15quite commonly a lot of click farms that
310. 11:18pump out government messaging. So,
311. 11:20anything that's critical of the
312. 11:21government would be filtered out,
313. 11:24wouldn't be seen. And you also do get
314. 11:26sensors that um if they see something as
315. 11:28negative um targeting the Communist
316. 11:31Party, they will just remove it from
317. 11:33social media platforms. So, in my
318. 11:35monitoring it's very difficult to see
319. 11:37anything other than positive messaging,
320. 11:40positive comments on social media saying
321. 11:42that they think this is law is great for
322. 11:44ethnic minorities, that it's that it's
323. 11:46fantastic, that it makes them feel more
324. 11:49unified with China. Um at the same time
325. 11:51though, I've also been looking at Hong
326. 11:52Kong media today, for example, and Hong
327. 11:54Kong has a
328. 11:56has a very independent media
329. 11:57environment. So, you get very different
330. 11:59messaging. You get a much more broad
331. 12:02spectrum of messaging than you would
332. 12:04from China, which is predominantly state
333. 12:06media focused. Um and uh Hong Kong media
334. 12:09have acknowledged that um Tibetan and
335. 12:11Uyghur minorities have warned the United
336. 12:13Nations that this law could legalize
337. 12:16cultural erasure. So, there are
338. 12:18obviously ethnic minorities that are
339. 12:19going out and they're saying, "We don't
340. 12:21agree with this law." But, if you're in
341. 12:23mainland China and you're looking on
342. 12:24social media platforms to see how people
343. 12:27feel, the impression that you would get
344. 12:30is that there's just universal
345. 12:31positivity.
346. 12:33>> Kerry, as always, thank you so much for
347. 12:35your time. We really appreciate it. Uh
348. 12:37Kerry Allen there, our BBC Monitoring
349. 12:39China analyst. Uh if you want more
350. 12:40content like this, uh check out our
351. 12:42Global News podcast. You can subscribe
352. 12:44and click on the link below. For now,
353. 12:46thank you so much for joining us and
354. 12:47we'll see you on the next episode.