Why are anti-migrant protests growing in South Africa? | Global News Podcast — Transcript

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1. 0:00Hello, welcome to the Global News
2. 0:01podcast from the BBC. I'm Ankit Desai
3. 0:03and today I'm joined by Pumza Fihlani,
4. 0:05our correspondent in Johannesburg. We're
5. 0:07going to talk about the growing
6. 0:08anti-migrant protests that have swept
7. 0:11across the country in recent weeks. And
8. 0:13Pumza, I mean, this is something which
9. 0:15has really gripped the nation. But first
10. 0:17of all, just tell us what these protests
11. 0:19are all about.
12. 0:21>> Uh to answer that question, let's give a
13. 0:22bit of context also about the makeup of
14. 0:24South Africa currently. Uh so South
15. 0:26Africa is currently home to about 3
16. 0:29million foreign nationals. These are the
17. 0:31figures. But some estimates say this
18. 0:33could be much higher, that the number of
19. 0:35people that are not documented but are
20. 0:37in the country could run a lot higher
21. 0:40than that 3 million. Now usually when
22. 0:43foreign nationals come into South
23. 0:44Africa, they'll tend to settle in areas
24. 0:47where they prospects for employment, to
25. 0:50start businesses, and they'll tend to
26. 0:52live in uh areas where housing is more
27. 0:55readily affordable. So the townships,
28. 0:58for example. Now this context is
29. 1:00important because the majority of South
30. 1:02Africans find themselves in that setup
31. 1:05as well. This is where the majority of
32. 1:06black South Africans particularly live.
33. 1:08They live in the townships still, and
34. 1:11they tend to be going for similar jobs
35. 1:13if you're talking about people that are
36. 1:15low-skilled labor. Now this is the
37. 1:18recipe that has brought about tensions
38. 1:21in some of these communities and these
39. 1:23protests that we've seen here in recent
40. 1:25weeks building up and culminating in
41. 1:27that massive demonstration just a few
42. 1:29days ago. Protesters, South African
43. 1:32protesters particularly, are saying they
44. 1:34are being muscled out of jobs. They're
45. 1:37saying that they are being muscled out
46. 1:39of jobs by companies that are instead of
47. 1:41hiring them, are hiring undocumented
48. 1:45migrants so they can underpay them. This
49. 1:47is the claim. The other one is that they
50. 1:51are seeing firsthand a strain on public
51. 1:54services. This is state hospitals saying
52. 1:56it is very difficult to get proper
53. 1:58health care Um across hospitals in the
54. 2:01country because that they are saying
55. 2:03that they are having to share these
56. 2:04limited resources with foreign
57. 2:06nationals. Now, it's a known phenomenon
58. 2:09here in South Africa that people from
59. 2:11neighboring countries, because of a
60. 2:13collapse in other countries, tend to
61. 2:15prefer to come and receive health care
62. 2:17here in South Africa, whether as a
63. 2:18short-term or because they are already
64. 2:20in country. So, these are some of the
65. 2:22two things that the protesters are
66. 2:24complaining about.
67. 2:25>> And Pumza, this is something which has
68. 2:27really swept across the country, as we
69. 2:29mentioned at the start. Just tell us a
70. 2:31bit about the atmosphere, not just in
71. 2:33some of the big cities like
72. 2:34Johannesburg, Cape Town, but but but in
73. 2:36some of the smaller areas, too.
74. 2:39>> Look, it's something that really has
75. 2:42touched at
76. 2:43the tensions that exist in some
77. 2:45communities. Some have been simmering or
78. 2:48bubbling under for years, some for
79. 2:50months,
80. 2:52but it's something really that's this
81. 2:54past week has created a sense a sense of
82. 2:57anxiety for some people, particularly
83. 2:59those who share these communities that
84. 3:02I've just mentioned, particularly those
85. 3:03who find themselves living in the
86. 3:05township, who come face-to-face with
87. 3:07South Africans who are out of work and
88. 3:09believe they are the reasons that they
89. 3:11are out of work. We've seen for weeks
90. 3:14now
91. 3:15talks of this unofficial deadline that
92. 3:18was imposed by campaigners for all
93. 3:20undocumented
94. 3:22migrants to leave the country, saying
95. 3:24that they want to they want the
96. 3:26government to take the lead on this, and
97. 3:28they want to make sure that those people
98. 3:30are repatriated
99. 3:32by their home countries, and if not,
100. 3:33they are deported by South Africa. So,
101. 3:36really just speaking to the heart of
102. 3:38people feeling frustrated South South
103. 3:39Africans feeling frustrated at what they
104. 3:42say is a lack of proper immigration
105. 3:44controls by the government, and foreign
106. 3:47nationals on their part feeling that
107. 3:49they are being scapegoated for uh
108. 3:52that exist, they say, around
109. 3:54unemployment, which they say they can't
110. 3:56solve and have no have no uh part in.
111. 4:00>> So, the government, no doubt under a lot
112. 4:01of pressure, what's their response been
113. 4:03to all of this?
114. 4:05>> Look, they've tried to strike a balance
115. 4:07in their response, I've noticed. So, on
116. 4:10the one hand, they've said that they
117. 4:12understand the genuine grievances around
118. 4:15staggering unemployment levels. We're
119. 4:17talking about 30% of the country's
120. 4:20population is unemployed, and some
121. 4:22people say some organizations say those
122. 4:24figures could even be be much higher,
123. 4:27and a big part of that population is
124. 4:29young people. Some of them are educated,
125. 4:31some are not educated, but they're
126. 4:32sitting at home, and then they are
127. 4:34unable to find jobs. So, the government
128. 4:36has said, "Look, we understand that
129. 4:38these these grievances are genuine, but
130. 4:40on the other hand, we will not allow
131. 4:42people to take the law into their own
132. 4:44hands." This is in response to sporadic
133. 4:47reports that we've seen of citizens
134. 4:50doing uh what you would call stop
135. 4:52searches on people that they find on the
136. 4:54streets and wanting them to present
137. 4:56proof of nationality and wanting to see
138. 4:58people's documentation to see, "Are you
139. 5:00here in South Africa legally or not?"
140. 5:02The government has said that is not
141. 5:04allowed, and anyone found to be doing
142. 5:06that will be uh will be arrested um and
143. 5:10charged with possible harassment and
144. 5:12similar charges. And then, on a broader
145. 5:14scale, uh the country's president, Cyril
146. 5:17Ramaphosa, um addressed the nation just
147. 5:19a few weeks ago um saying that they are
148. 5:22looking at changing tact a little bit,
149. 5:24that they recognize that there is a
150. 5:26problem around immigration laws, and
151. 5:29some of the laws need to be tightened or
152. 5:32better managed. So, if I could just give
153. 5:34you a quick sense here of what they're
154. 5:36talking about doing. They're saying
155. 5:38firstly, what they want to do is start
156. 5:40jailing people who employ undocumented
157. 5:42migrants. This is a serious uh they're
158. 5:45saying this is a serious offense, and
159. 5:47they want to be seen to be taking it
160. 5:49seriously. So, that's the first one. The
161. 5:51second they say they want to set up
162. 5:52courts which will be looking at
163. 5:55fast-tracking deportations of people who
164. 5:58are found to not have legal status in
165. 6:01South Africa. So, bypassing some of the
166. 6:04delays that tend to happen in the
167. 6:06courts. The other big one is that they
168. 6:09want to relocate repatriation centers
169. 6:13which are normally found here in
170. 6:14Johannesburg, for example. They want to
171. 6:17move them and have them closer at border
172. 6:19posts so that it's an easier transit
173. 6:21between the border post into the
174. 6:24receiving country. And lastly, they say
175. 6:26they want to get um
176. 6:28better interaction and better
177. 6:30cooperation from African governments
178. 6:33saying that for much too long South
179. 6:35Africa has borne a disproportionate
180. 6:38amount
181. 6:40of the burden of what happens when other
182. 6:43African countries' economies struggle.
183. 6:45That migration tends to move down
184. 6:47towards South Africa and they're saying
185. 6:49that they are taking the strain for that
186. 6:51and need African governments to also
187. 6:53step up and help their citizens.
188. 6:57>> Bonga, I guess we want to get a sense of
189. 7:00how people who are being targeted are
190. 7:01feeling because this must be quite
191. 7:03intimidating and they really are at the
192. 7:05center and heart of what's going on.
193. 7:09>> They certainly have. I mean, I was at
194. 7:10the protest earlier this week, this
195. 7:13nationwide protest that had been touted
196. 7:15for weeks. And it was really
197. 7:17disheartening to see people
198. 7:20reduced to two bags or a blanket who had
199. 7:23left their homes with whatever with
200. 7:25whatever belongings they could grab
201. 7:28fearing that something might happen. And
202. 7:30on the part of the protest themselves,
203. 7:33while they were largely peaceful around
204. 7:35the country, there were pockets of
205. 7:37crowds who really were angry. Um, angry
206. 7:40at the helplessness of the situation,
207. 7:42angry at what they feel is the
208. 7:44government's failure to speedily address
209. 7:47this. So, really just an environment
210. 7:50creating an environment in some parts,
211. 7:51certainly on the day that the protests
212. 7:53were happening, in some communities that
213. 7:55people are unwelcomed. And that is
214. 7:57something that um this foreign nationals
215. 7:59that I've spoken to have said they've
216. 8:01grappled with, that they've lived here
217. 8:03for a very long time. Some, yes, have
218. 8:05said they do not have legal status, but
219. 8:07they've created homes here. So, it's a
220. 8:09very delicate thing that needs to be
221. 8:11managed.
222. 8:12>> And we're also seeing people who are now
223. 8:15being forced to leave South Africa, but
224. 8:17they're also leaving some of their
225. 8:18family members behind as well. Have we
226. 8:20been hearing about some of their stories
227. 8:22because that's another gut-wrenching
228. 8:23part in all of this where families are
229. 8:25being separated because of this, and
230. 8:27some people are leaving and going back
231. 8:29to their home countries, but still
232. 8:30leaving some members behind?
233. 8:34>> Um yes, that's actually one of the areas
234. 8:36that I visited um earlier this week was
235. 8:39I went to the Malawi Consulate here in
236. 8:42Johannesburg where scores and scores of
237. 8:45Malawi nationals had fled um and taken
238. 8:48refuge there um fearing what may happen
239. 8:51over the next few weeks. They'd set up
240. 8:52camp there for a few days um at the
241. 8:54doorstep of the consulate wanting the
242. 8:57Malawi government to help get them home.
243. 9:00And some of the people that I spoke to
244. 9:02were saying were giving me examples of
245. 9:03how they'd separated from their partners
246. 9:05the day before um and they don't know
247. 9:08when they would see them again. So, the
248. 9:10how the logistics worked was a bus came
249. 9:13and took some people. The understanding
250. 9:15is they were taken to a repatriation
251. 9:17center. So, this would have been a group
252. 9:18of women and then men would have been
253. 9:20taken in a later bus. So, some of the
254. 9:22men that were left behind were concerned
255. 9:24that they don't know um what the makeup
256. 9:27of the repatriation center is when they
257. 9:29arrive there. So, they don't know if
258. 9:31they were able to be reunited with their
259. 9:33wives and children or if their only
260. 9:35chance of being reunited will be when
261. 9:37they eventually land in Malawi. So,
262. 9:40those sort of concerns for people
263. 9:43very palpable and and some people even
264. 9:45telling me there that look, they
265. 9:47understand some of them were confiding
266. 9:49saying, "We don't have the
267. 9:50documentation, but things have really
268. 9:53become so bad that we are willing to be
269. 9:55repatriated and will not return to South
270. 9:58Africa." Fearing that this might not be
271. 10:00a short-term problem, that maybe this
272. 10:01might be a sign of the times globally,
273. 10:04that the world is changing and and
274. 10:06people are wanting to be clearer on
275. 10:08people's legal status, whatever the
276. 10:10circumstances of what got them here.
277. 10:13>> And finally, Pumza, what will this mean
278. 10:15for regional stability? South Africa
279. 10:17plays such a key role in the region as
280. 10:19we know, but the broader impact of these
281. 10:21demonstrations, what could it do to
282. 10:23impact South Africa's relationships with
283. 10:26other African countries nearby?
284. 10:29>> Look, it's already strained relations
285. 10:31with a few African countries. We've seen
286. 10:33what would would ordinarily be
287. 10:36behind-the-scenes discussions playing
288. 10:38out on social media with some African
289. 10:40countries, Ghana for example, accusing
290. 10:42South Africa of of turning a blind eye
291. 10:45to what they claim are abuses happening
292. 10:47in the country. So, the tensions there
293. 10:50now are diplomatic tensions, certainly
294. 10:52that will need to be smoothed out and
295. 10:54South Africa in the region has been
296. 10:57known as the sort of country that is
297. 10:59reconciliatory, that wants to reconcile
298. 11:01and be friendly with all its neighbors.
299. 11:04But on the other side though, and that's
300. 11:06something that President Cyril Ramaphosa
301. 11:07has
302. 11:08shown that he's willing to do to try and
303. 11:10mend those frayed relationships. But on
304. 11:13the other hand, he's also said in
305. 11:15addition to doing that, he will be
306. 11:17sending teams to the rest of Africa to
307. 11:20communicate that things need to change.
308. 11:22He wants to communicate this new
309. 11:24strategy that the South African
310. 11:26officials want to now follow and get
311. 11:29explicit buy-in from African countries
312. 11:31saying again it is
313. 11:34disproportionately burdened with having
314. 11:36to look after in quotes in quotes
315. 11:39the the continent and that African
316. 11:42governments need to be taking a
317. 11:44proactive stance on getting their
318. 11:46economies up and running so that people
319. 11:48do not need to flee for what they
320. 11:50consider better economic conditions. So
321. 11:53it's a twofold response so far but
322. 11:55certainly one where we saw the country's
323. 11:58president there seeming to hint at a
324. 12:00slight shift of how they will be
325. 12:02negotiating with African governments
326. 12:04going forward.
327. 12:05>> Yes, well this is a story I think which
328. 12:06is going to continue to rumble on for
329. 12:09the foreseeable future and possibly
330. 12:10something we'll revisit again. But thank
331. 12:12you so much for outlining what's
332. 12:14happening in South Africa for the time
333. 12:15being. Pumza, we appreciate your time.
334. 12:17That's Pumza Fihlani,
335. 12:19our correspondent in Johannesburg. Just
336. 12:21to remind you if you do want more global
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