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Why a Biochemist Left Atheism for Christianity — Transcript

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0:00I knew there was something missing
0:01[music] and I didn't know what it was.
0:03>> You hold a PhD in biochemistry. You're a
0:05tenure [music] professor at NYU, Rutgers
0:08University, the University of
0:10Pittsburgh. You've even published a
0:12myriad of wellrespected [music]
0:14peer-reviewed articles and papers and
0:16books like the works of his hands,
0:18science and faith and harmony and beyond
0:20evolution.
0:20>> I treated them [music] terribly. I was
0:23an atheist and I told them I was the
0:24devil and they ran out crying [music]
0:26and screaming. Taught that the whole
0:28idea of God was just a silly myth that
0:30was used to control people. I was
0:32holding on to a cliff. I was starting to
0:34lose my grip and I was afraid I was
0:36going to fall and I didn't know what to
0:37do. I heard a voice say, "Just let go."
0:39And I thought, "Let go. I'm going to
0:42fall down and die." And the voice
0:44[music] said it again, "If you want to
0:45see evidence for God, look in the
0:48mirror.
0:49>> If there was no God, you would not be
0:51here." I I love science and I love Jesus
0:54Christ. [music] And I am convinced that
0:56those two loves are not different.
1:05[music]
1:11>> Well, Dr. Sigart, thank you so much.
1:13Welcome to this episode of The Shift.
1:14It's great to have you with us.
1:16>> It's great to be here. Thanks for having
1:17me. Now you have accomplished quite a
1:20lot in your life but the most
1:23[clears throat] impactful
1:25thing about your journey Dr. Syiggart
1:28and I'm going to call you Sai um
1:32is truly how God was actively pursuing
1:35you in your atheism. You moved from
1:38militant atheism to Christianity. And so
1:40I would love to kind of just start from
1:43the top. Let's take it from the top. I
1:44want to hear, you know, what kind of
1:47environment shaped the way that you saw
1:49God, the way that you saw religion, the
1:51way that you saw ultimate reality. Tell
1:54us about it.
1:55>> Yeah, I grew up in a uh household that
1:58was not only not Christian, but severely
2:01anti-Christian, and it basically goes
2:04back three generations.
2:06Everyone in my family were uh communists
2:08and strong atheists.
2:11>> Communism and atheism kind of go
2:12together.
2:14Uh and so I had absolutely no religious
2:18upbringing of any kind. I was taught
2:20that the whole idea of God was just a
2:23silly myth that was used to control
2:25people.
2:27uh that the ruling class which was the
2:30in use at those days uh was in charge
2:34and they made sure that uh people stayed
2:39obedient and religion was a a a weapon
2:43to do that
2:45>> and Christianity in particular. So my
2:48own background was that I had no
2:51religious holidays. Uh, we exchanged
2:54presents on New Year's Day, not on
2:56Christmas because that's what happened
2:58in the Soviet Union. Children are given
3:00gifts on Christmas. On sorry, on New
3:02Year's Day.
3:04I knew that Christmas existed because
3:07you can't avoid it. I grew up in New
3:09York City and, you know, I would go
3:10shopping and
3:12>> and I could hear Christmas carols in the
3:15stores
3:17and I just thought it was all terrible.
3:19There was one exception to that, by the
3:21way, which was uh Silent Night.
3:26>> I remember when I first heard Silent
3:28Night, it was in a department store. I
3:30guess I was there with my mother or
3:31something shopping and I heard this
3:34these words, Silent Night, Holy Night,
3:39all is calm, all is bright. And when I
3:43heard all is calm, I thought what a
3:46wonderful idea because nothing was calm
3:48in my life. [gasps]
3:51>> There was no source of calmness. There
3:53was no source of peace or brightness.
3:57Um you know people I I've talked with a
4:01lot of atheists over the years and the
4:03great majority of them had been
4:05Christians and then turned away from it
4:07for various reasons.
4:10Very few people that I know who are
4:13atheists grew up the way I did as
4:15atheists.
4:17And when I hear people say, "Oh,
4:19children are being brainwashed into
4:21Christianity." It gets me angry because
4:25what are they being brainwashed to
4:27believe? To believe that people are
4:28good, that love is important,
4:31that Jesus brings grace. I was
4:33brainwashed to believe there's no good
4:35and no evil. M
4:37>> that you have to do the best you can.
4:38That the world is awful. The world is
4:40terrible. It's a hard place. You got to
4:43fight to survive every minute of the day
4:45all the time. Nobody's on your side.
4:48There's no God. There's no Jesus. That's
4:50a myth.
4:53That's not brainwashing.
4:55>> Yeah.
4:55>> And isn't that much worse than being
4:58told you're loved?
5:02No matter what you've done, you can you
5:05can repent. You can confess and repent
5:07and be forgiven. That nobody is beyond
5:10forgiveness.
5:11>> That's bad.
5:13Well, anyway, I'm jumping ahead of
5:16things.
5:16>> No, that's good.
5:17>> So, I grew up in that in that millure
5:20and I was completely atheist.
5:23There was one crazy experience I had
5:25when I was 16. I had started dating a
5:28girl, one of my first girlfriends, and I
5:31didn't know it, but she was secretly a
5:33Christian. and she brought me to see a
5:35movie called uh the gospel according to
5:38St. Matthew. It was an Italian movie by
5:40a director named Pasalini
5:42and it was basically the text of the
5:45Gospel of Matthew filmed
5:48>> and I was very bored and I thought, "Oh
5:50my goodness, this is all stupid Bible
5:53stuff. I know that's not real." And then
5:56there was the rest the crucifixion scene
5:58and and there was a soundtrack. And I
6:00have to say that part of my background
6:02is music. My mother was a piano teacher.
6:05Everybody played music. And I went to
6:07music and art high school in New York.
6:09>> So music is very important to me. Okay.
6:11Very emotional with music.
6:13>> And what was playing in the background
6:15while the body was being taken off the
6:17cross and being delivered to the tomb
6:19was this [clears throat] Russian hymn,
6:21very somber, very sad, very heavy.
6:26And this and the the body is placed in
6:28the tomb. And this music is still the
6:31soundtrack going on and on. And the next
6:34two days later when when it's the third
6:38day and the women come to the tomb and
6:42they're kneeling in front of the tomb
6:45and suddenly they look up
6:50and the stone has been rolled away and
6:53the music changes to this incredibly
6:57beautiful joyous hymn an African hymn
7:00called Misalooa.
7:02which is it it it and it the effect of
7:05that hit me like a I don't know like
7:09what like a like a hurricane. I was
7:11suddenly overwhelmed with emotion
7:15and of course the angel appears and and
7:18tells Mary the Lord is risen go to
7:21Galilee
7:23and I for about and I thought to myself
7:26this must be real there's something here
7:30but it didn't last very long
7:32>> maybe five minutes because I said to
7:34myself no no no I've heard about this
7:36this is this is an emotional
7:38manipulation they changed the music to
7:41make it seem like it was real. Nah.
7:43>> Like this is what they were supposed to
7:44do. Like they wanted you to have this
7:46emotion. They were trying to invoke
7:47this. So this isn't real.
7:48>> And they worked
7:49>> right.
7:50>> But I, you know, I was so proud that I
7:52have been, you know, I could see through
7:55it. I could see that this was not real.
7:58I now know that that was the first time
8:00the Holy Spirit came to me.
8:02>> Wow.
8:03>> Without question.
8:05>> Through music, which is interesting. You
8:06mentioned that your background is in
8:08music and so he used
8:09>> something that was already connected to
8:11you.
8:12>> That's incredible.
8:13>> That's right.
8:13>> It's like he knows specifically how to
8:15get to each and every one of us.
8:16>> Absolutely right. And you know people
8:18now will ask me, I don't hear God. I
8:21don't hear the voice of God. I call I
8:22pray to God. I call God. I get nothing
8:24back. I said no. But you see, you're not
8:26listening
8:28>> because you're not going to hear a
8:30booming voice from heaven saying, "My
8:32son,
8:34you you hear you hear the voice of God
8:37in ways you can't imagine or predict."
8:40And what what you said is true. That was
8:42the first example of that.
8:44>> Wow.
8:44>> It was that musical
8:48that musical change, that musical
8:51emotion that did it for me. It's not
8:54going to do it for everybody. It's going
8:56to do it for what? Somebody else will be
8:58walking down the street and see a child
9:02who's crying
9:04and and and look at the child and think,
9:06"I wonder what's wrong. What what what
9:08can I do?" And the child will look up at
9:10them and smile.
9:12>> That's God.
9:15That's God speaking to you because God
9:18knows that you are someone who will take
9:22care of a child. Wow.
9:26>> And when you do it and the child tells
9:28you what's wrong and you bring bring her
9:30home to her mother, whatever you do to
9:32help her,
9:35>> you're acting out the will of God. And
9:37and and that was him speaking to you.
9:40And this happens all the time.
9:43So, you know, yeah, that was an example.
9:46And and but of course, I was 16. I
9:49forgot about it.
9:51>> Years passed. I went to college. I
9:54studied chemistry. I learned about
9:56quantum mechanics. Sounded very strange
9:59to me. I didn't understand it.
10:00>> What is quantum mechanics?
10:01>> Quantum mechanics is a is a fairly
10:04recent view uh field of physics which
10:07started in the 1920s.
10:08>> Okay.
10:09>> And what it says is kind of wild.
10:12>> Okay. It dep it deviates quite sharply
10:16from standard physics which is that
10:19there are laws there are forces
10:21everything is logical everything is
10:23deterministic if this happens then that
10:25happens you can predict things based on
10:27current things
10:28>> that's standard physics standard quantum
10:31mechanics looks at the tiniest particles
10:35electrons and little tiny parts of atoms
10:38and those laws don't apply those
10:41classical laws for example there's the
10:43classical law which everybody always
10:45knew was correct which is that if you go
10:47from A to B you have to pass everything
10:49in between.
10:51>> So if you have cold water and you heat
10:53it up and it gets hot it goes through
10:56every temperature between the cold and
10:58the hot.
10:59>> Uhhuh.
11:00>> That doesn't happen with electrons
11:02>> really.
11:02>> Electrons could be at an energy state
11:05and then they jump to another one. They
11:07don't go slowly. They don't go
11:08gradually. They don't pass the other
11:11energy states at all. They jump from one
11:14energy which is called a quantum to the
11:17next.
11:18>> But why? Why is it
11:20>> exactly? [laughter] See
11:22>> different.
11:22>> You ask the right question.
11:24>> Like why?
11:25>> We don't know.
11:27>> Okay. Okay. [laughter] I'm like that's
11:29crazy. It usually gradually progresses
11:32and this one just jumps. Why is there a
11:34difference?
11:34>> Exactly.
11:35>> Okay.
11:35>> We don't know why, but we know it's
11:37true. because all the experiments have
11:39been done and they're absolutely there's
11:41no question that it's true and that's
11:42not the only thing
11:44>> a lot if you ask where is the electron
11:47>> the answer is there's no way to know but
11:49we have the probability of where it
11:51might be
11:52>> okay
11:54>> 80% it's here 30% it's there 10% it's
11:57there we don't know we cannot find out
11:59where it is and in fact if you know the
12:04position of the electron exactly
12:07You cannot know how fast it's going. If
12:10you know how fast it's going, you cannot
12:13figure out where it is.
12:16So, imagine you're in a car,
12:18>> okay?
12:20>> And you're driving the car.
12:21>> Mhm.
12:22>> If you know exactly where you are, you
12:24can't tell your speed.
12:26If you know how fast you're going, you
12:28cannot tell where you are. Cuz that's
12:30nonsense for us,
12:32>> right?
12:32>> But it is a fact for electrons.
12:35>> Really?
12:35>> Yeah.
12:35>> Okay. My mind's blown.
12:37>> Yes. It's
12:37>> So you're learning this in college.
12:39>> I'm learning this in college.
12:40>> So you're like, what is happening here?
12:41>> Yes. Okay. Because I had been taught, my
12:44father, who was a chemist, a scientist,
12:46had taught me, you know, standard
12:50principles of natural science, which is
12:52everything is predictable. You have
12:54equations and laws for everything. This
12:56completely violates that. Now, there are
12:58lots of interpretations of how this
13:00could be and what it means. Some of them
13:02are crazy. Some of them are not so
13:04crazy. But we don't know which is right
13:06if any of them.
13:09>> Reality is much more complicated than we
13:12used to think. We meaning the scientific
13:14world.
13:15>> Okay.
13:16>> So that put a dent in my belief that all
13:20we need is science and science tells us
13:23everything easily. Uh and it put a dent
13:26in my belief in you know what's called
13:28determinism. Everything comes from
13:30something else and you can figure it out
13:31easily.
13:32>> Okay.
13:32>> Why are you sitting there? Well, we can
13:34figure out why you're sitting there.
13:36>> Okay.
13:36>> Um,
13:38no, it's not the case in actual physics.
13:42So, I didn't become a theist or or, you
13:46know, a a start believing in the
13:48supernatural or anything else because of
13:50that, but it put a crack in my absolute
13:53certainty
13:55that everything we knew, everything we
13:58know comes from this kind of straight
14:00scientific method. So you're in college
14:02at this point and you're delving heavily
14:05into the science and it's the science
14:07that's kind of the starting point of the
14:09deconstruction of scientism of
14:11materialism of atheism of what you were
14:13taught to uh to know and to trust.
14:16>> Yes.
14:16>> So was was it quantum mechanics that was
14:19the first?
14:19>> That was probably the first because I
14:21studied that in in physics as an
14:23undergraduate chemistry major.
14:25>> But I got much more serious when I went
14:27to graduate school and began studying
14:29biochemistry. Ooh, tell me about that.
14:32>> Well, biochemistry as it sounds is the
14:35chemistry of life.
14:36>> Okay.
14:37>> So, you learn all about enzymes and
14:39there are a lot of laws, a lot of rules.
14:42>> Uh there are a lot of pathways, chemical
14:44pathways, straight chemistry, no
14:46problem.
14:47>> But then you get to some really hard
14:49stuff like,
14:51you know, cells divide. We know that,
14:54right? And each one is like a copy of
14:56the of the original. Mhm.
14:59>> How does it do that? And I whenever I
15:02lecture on this, I usually show a
15:04picture of a beautiful house and I say,
15:06suppose you see this beautiful house,
15:08you love everything about it. You love
15:09the house itself. You love the
15:11furniture, what's inside it, the books,
15:13the the paintings on the wall. You want
15:15an exact copy of that.
15:17>> You could get a contractor to do that.
15:18It'll be very expensive, but they will
15:20do it.
15:21>> They can do it. No house can ever make a
15:23copy of itself,
15:25>> right? Nothing can make a copy of
15:27itself. Nothing. Crystals don't make
15:30copies of themselves. Not accurate
15:32copies.
15:33>> Okay.
15:33>> The only thing that can make a copy of
15:35itself is a living cell.
15:37>> Huh?
15:38>> And how does it do that?
15:40One of the problems with making a copy
15:42of yourself, if you're a house or a
15:44factory or whatever, is you need
15:46machines to make those copies. You need
15:48machines to make the things. How do how
15:50do you get a copy of the plumbing? You
15:52need machines. How do you get a copy of
15:54the walls, whatever?
15:55>> Mhm.
15:56>> Well, cells have these incredible
15:58machines called enzymes.
16:00>> Okay.
16:00>> That actually
16:02make the cell the way it is.
16:04>> All right.
16:05>> And those are proteins. And those are
16:07very special proteins. They have a very
16:10specific structure which makes them
16:12work. And how is that done? Well,
16:16there's something called
16:18a process. It's known as translation or
16:21protein synthesis.
16:23>> And that process is the most complex
16:26process we know of. And that includes
16:28everything man-made and everything in
16:30the universe.
16:31>> Okay?
16:32>> It's it involves hundreds of various
16:36chemicals.
16:38It includes the DNA, RNA, it includes
16:42parts of the cells. I can't go into it
16:44in detail. It's in my book.
16:46>> I think it's in all of them.
16:47>> It's in all of them. [laughter] It is.
16:49And you put diagrams in there for us to
16:51see. Visuals and there's amazing QR
16:55codes in there. Just shameless plug that
16:57you can just scan with your phone and it
16:59takes you to one of your lectures that
17:00shows videos and you walking us through
17:02that process. So, it's a really great
17:03read by the way.
17:04>> Thank you. So,
17:08it turns out that that's done the the
17:11basic instructions because that's the
17:13other thing you need. If you're going to
17:14make something, you need an instruction.
17:15You need a manual. Mhm.
17:17>> You're going to fix a car, you need a
17:18car manual. There's a manual in life.
17:20It's called the genetic code.
17:22>> Okay.
17:23>> And in the genetic code, just to be very
17:25quick about it, what the genetic code
17:27says is that there are parts of the DNA
17:31that code
17:33for specific parts of proteins.
17:36The parts of the proteins are called
17:37amino acids.
17:39>> And the structure of a protein depends
17:42on the sequence of those amino acids. If
17:45they're the wrong sequence, the protein
17:46won't work.
17:48>> This is sounding familiar. Is this your
17:49favorite enzyme?
17:51>> Yes. Okay. One of my my favorite enzyme
17:53is part of that process.
17:54>> Okay. If it memory serves me correctly,
17:57your favorite enzyme is and I've worked
18:00a week to try to pronounce this amino
18:03ac.
18:06>> Perfect.
18:08>> It's like a week on that. [laughter]
18:10I didn't get it. But you did a
18:12incredible job explaining it. So I would
18:14love for you to continue
18:15>> PhD.
18:15>> Okay. Thank you. [laughter]
18:17>> Yes.
18:18>> What that enzyme does is amazing but
18:20it's part of this process. The details
18:23too much for now. Yeah. But the point is
18:26>> that the genetic code is what determines
18:29the correct sequence of the amino acids
18:32to make just the right proteins.
18:35>> And it people will say, "Yeah, it's just
18:38chemicals." Well, yeah, they're
18:40chemicals, but that's like just like
18:42saying words are just sounds.
18:45>> If I say tree, you know what I mean?
18:47Yeah.
18:47>> Even though the word tree has nothing to
18:50do with the tall plant made out of wood,
18:53it's a symbol that we use. And the code
18:56is English. The English language is the
18:58code that we both know.
19:01The same thing happens in cells. They
19:02have a code. The genetic code says if
19:05you have a GGG that means put a glycine
19:09here. Glycine is an amino acid. If you
19:12have an act it means put a thrienine
19:15next to it. That's another amino acid.
19:17There's nothing chemically that should
19:19make act code forine.
19:22They don't bind to each other. There's
19:24no chemical reason for that. It's
19:26arbitrary like all symbols.
19:29>> Okay. It's a symbolic code, an abstract
19:32symbolic code.
19:34Where did that come from?
19:36>> That's the question.
19:37>> Where did that come from?
19:40It's information.
19:42Where did the in how did how did living
19:45beings
19:46get information? Where did that come
19:48from? They didn't invent it.
19:50>> Yeah.
19:52>> Um that struck me as a graduate student
19:56and I didn't I I asked questions. I read
19:59literature. I tried to find out. There's
20:01no answer.
20:03>> So I said, "Okay, well, all right." You
20:04know, that's like quantum mechanics
20:06doesn't make sense.
20:09>> But it it stayed with me because I
20:11became a biochemist and I worked I did
20:13research. I I spent 30 years doing
20:15research in biochemistry in various
20:17applied areas.
20:20And I worked with DNA, I mean a lot. And
20:23I, you know, sequenced genes and I
20:25looked at I studied proteins. I did all
20:27these things and behind it all was
20:29always this thought how did this start?
20:33How did it develop?
20:34>> Yeah.
20:35>> And I I just didn't know. And I began
20:38thinking
20:39>> maybe there's something be besides
20:42science. I wouldn't have said God, but I
20:45would have said maybe there's something
20:46else, some something in the universe.
20:50You know, people like to say the
20:51universe instead of God. Maybe there's
20:52something in the universe that some law
20:54that we don't know. Yeah. And that could
20:56be true, but it it it kind of shattered
20:59my certainty that pure atheism and just
21:04determinism and naturalism are all you
21:07need.
21:08>> Yeah.
21:08>> I knew there was something missing and I
21:10didn't know what it was.
21:12>> So when I was reading your book Sai and
21:14we were talking about your favorite
21:16amino acid amino acid trying to get that
21:19correct. What I understood from that
21:21process was that
21:23>> you you you did a great job of saying
21:24like, hey, there's there's um the the
21:27translator is kind of the one that binds
21:30the puts the hands together. And in the
21:33chemical world, we call that binding,
21:35like they're bound, but before they can
21:36just write off into the sunset of the
21:38ribosome, they go through like this
21:40editing process, right? And so for my
21:42brain, because I'm I'm a romcom girl, I
21:44kind of took that as a romcom. I was
21:46like, "Oh, it's so cute."
21:48>> Right. [laughter] But they can't just go
21:49out right off in the sunset right now.
21:51Like they have to go through this
21:52editing phase to make sure that they're
21:54actually supposed to be together. That's
21:55right. And so there's this editing phase
21:57where
21:58>> the parents.
21:58>> Yes. [laughter]
22:00>> Visiting your parents like who is this
22:01person you're bringing home for me? So
22:03they go through this editing phase and
22:05I'm I from what I understood from your
22:07books
22:08if it's the correct match it won't fit
22:12>> right. If it is the correct match, it it
22:15won't fit and then it will just go off
22:17and ride off into the sunset of the
22:18ribosome. But that romcom
22:20>> will quickly change from a romcom to
22:23like the Terminator or some horror flick
22:25if it's the wrong match because I'm told
22:27that if it's the wrong match, it goes
22:29into that that editing site and it gets
22:31like sliced and diced into little
22:34pieces. So, and but just to that's just
22:36how my bra am I like tracking with you a
22:38little bit. Is that how the process was
22:39kind of explained? In fact, I want to
22:42write my next book with you.
22:43>> Okay. Okay. Please, please, let's stay
22:44in contact because I'm not a scientist
22:46and I feel like a lot of our audience
22:47members, they're not going to be
22:48scientists. And it's like I want to
22:50understand that you're telling me, Sai,
22:52that when you were looking at this
22:53process and you're explaining this
22:54process of your favorite enzyme, you
22:56were basically saying this is too
22:58complex to be explained by just natural
23:00things. It just it's just not. So,
23:02you're going through grad school looking
23:04at the science that's really poking a
23:06hole into your scientism, your your
23:08materialism, your atheism. So what was
23:11that point though the defining moment
23:13where you moved from okay God doesn't
23:16exist from atheism to well I just can't
23:20know whether or not God exists to
23:22agnosticism. What was that moment?
23:24>> I it probably was around then or but I
23:27don't think so. So I think it took a
23:28little later because what happened was
23:32I I didn't think about God as a
23:35possibility even after all this
23:36scientific information was coming to me
23:38>> really why why were you resisting
23:42>> just because I didn't believe in God the
23:44whole idea of a god just didn't make
23:46sense where you know all you've heard
23:48all the atheist starting where did it
23:49come from who made him all the these
23:52were my arguments and the Lord knew that
23:56>> and
23:57Around that time, I may have already
24:00gotten my PhD, but I was young. I was in
24:03my late 20s.
24:04>> Yeah.
24:05>> I had a dream.
24:07>> Tell me about that.
24:08>> Which threw me off. I dreamt that I was
24:11um on a cliff, holding on to a cliff,
24:15and I'm terrified of heights. So, this
24:16was a scary dream.
24:18>> Yeah.
24:19>> And I was starting to lose my grip, and
24:21I was afraid I was going to fall, and I
24:22didn't know what to do. And I kept
24:23yelling, "Help! Help!" And um I heard a
24:27voice say, "Just let go."
24:30>> And I thought, "Let go. I'm going to
24:32fall down and die." And the voice said
24:35it again, "Just let go." And I was
24:37losing my grip anyway. So I I let go.
24:40And as soon as I let go, the world
24:42turned 90 degrees. And I was not hanging
24:44on a cliff. I was lying on the ground.
24:49And I looked up and there was a man
24:50there. The man who had said, "Just let
24:53go." And I woke up
24:55and I
24:58I sat up straight and I said, "What was
25:00that? Let what what does that mean?" I
25:04had no idea.
25:07And it was a powerful dream. I could not
25:09forget it.
25:13And that was the first time that God
25:16spoke to me directly
25:18after the time when I was 16. Mhm.
25:22>> And
25:25much later
25:28when I became a Christian,
25:31[clears throat]
25:32I realized what it meant. When God said,
25:36because that was the Holy Spirit. And
25:38when Holy Spirit said to me, just let
25:42go. I had to let go of everything you
25:46just mentioned.
25:47I had to let go of my background. I had
25:49to let go of all the fears
25:53that I had. I had to let go of the
25:55certainties that God can't be real. All
25:58of that, everything.
26:01And that's what he I was told in very
26:03specific words, which I didn't
26:05understand at the time, but that was it.
26:09So that didn't turn me into a believer
26:11either, but it it rocked me and it and I
26:15began reading various books. One of the
26:18books I read was Tal Hard Shadan, the
26:20phenomenon of man
26:22>> and that that was interesting and I
26:25began looking into various religious
26:28quasi religious things
26:30>> like what
26:32>> uh I don't even remember now. Um at that
26:35time this was in the 70s early 80s uh
26:40there were several sort of
26:42semi-spiritual movements going on
26:44transcendental meditation
26:46>> okay
26:47>> uh bio feedback I started getting
26:49interested in those and those things
26:50were not strictly materialist they were
26:52kind of on the fringe
26:55>> and I started thinking in general I even
26:57looked into Buddhism you know which I
27:00>> couldn't do because I didn't understand
27:02a word of it Yeah.
27:04>> Uh, and I even remembered this thing of
27:09the movie that I'd seen, the book of
27:10Matthew, and I started looking at that a
27:13little bit.
27:14>> I I didn't like it, but there were parts
27:17of it that kind of struck me. Sermon on
27:20the mount, the statements, you know,
27:22love your neighbor as yourself, love
27:24your enemies, I turn the other cheek,
27:27all these crazy things that Jesus was
27:28saying that were brand new. And I was
27:31thinking, well, I don't know. I don't
27:33know if I agree with him on all these
27:35things. Somebody hits me on the cheek. I
27:37mean, I had experience with that. I
27:39mean, I hit back.
27:40>> Come on now.
27:41>> Brooklyn, you know, peace place.
27:43>> Come on. [laughter]
27:46>> I had my share of uh confrontations.
27:50>> Yeah.
27:50>> And loving my enemies? No.
27:54Never.
27:54>> Yeah.
27:55>> Okay. So, time passed and I began to
27:57consider myself an agnostic. I I I
28:00couldn't say I God is impossible.
28:02>> Okay.
28:02>> But I couldn't believe.
28:04>> Yeah. So what got you from agnosticism?
28:06>> The dream.
28:07>> Okay.
28:08>> Which was that I was uh
28:12walking around and I saw a walled
28:15garden. It was a very tall wall. I
28:17wanted I knew it was a garden somehow
28:19and I wanted to climb over the wall and
28:20get into the garden.
28:21>> Okay.
28:22>> But I couldn't climb over the wall. It
28:23was very steep and very difficult to
28:25climb. So I got very frustrated. I
28:27started walking around to see if there
28:28was a better place. And at some point, I
28:31ran into a man who was standing there
28:32and I and he said, "What's wrong with
28:34you?" And I said, "I'm trying to get
28:35into this garden." And he looked at me
28:37and he said, "There's the door."
28:42And there was a door.
28:46So I opened the door and walked in and
28:49woke up. Now, this time [laughter]
28:52I hadn't read that yet in the Bible,
28:56but this time I knew enough about who
28:58Jesus was to know that that was Jesus
29:01>> and to know
29:04well, I don't know whether I knew it
29:06right away, but I think I I got it
29:07pretty quickly that you didn't have to
29:10pass a test to believe in Christ.
29:14There's no
29:16essay question that you have to fill
29:19out. There's no set of multiplechoice
29:22answers that you have to get 80 or
29:24better on.
29:25>> Mhm.
29:26>> You just have to believe.
29:29And this dream,
29:31>> that was it.
29:32>> That was the message. That was the walk
29:34in.
29:34>> Yeah.
29:35>> You don't have you don't have to pay any
29:37dues. You don't have to stamp a card.
29:39You don't have to show your passport.
29:41You open the door and walk in.
29:44>> How freeing was that for you? I mean,
29:46you mentioned that you kind of looked
29:47into Buddhism, and I know that that's
29:48like you got to keep the eight-fold
29:49path, and you have to do all these
29:50things in order to achieve salvation, so
29:53to speak, but how freeing was that?
29:55>> He was very freeing,
29:58but not enough.
30:00>> I still couldn't get past that
30:02threshold. I knew the door was there,
30:05and I knew that I had all I had to do
30:08was walk in, but I couldn't do it. There
30:10was something still holding me back. It
30:12was And I again, I don't know. I can't
30:14put my finger on it. Okay.
30:15>> It was again a sum of everything you
30:17said. I had been visited at least twice.
30:20I actually had a couple other dreams
30:21which I just too far to go into.
30:25>> So I I and and you know part of my mind
30:27was saying yeah dreams. Ah come on
30:29dreams. And sure enough you know there
30:31are plenty of atheists too when they oh
30:33yeah he he dreamed it. That's yeah that
30:35that's not science.
30:37>> Yeah you're right. It's not science.
30:39[laughter]
30:40And then I had the the final thing which
30:43brought me over was not a dream. It was
30:45a waking experience which you read about
30:49>> and that did it. And that was a direct
30:53visit while awake of the Holy Spirit
30:56into my brain into my soul. I was
30:59driving alone in a car on a long trip
31:03and I was listening to the radio and I
31:05turned it off
31:07and I pulled the car over. I've been
31:09listening to a a a preacher giving a
31:12sermon and I thought to myself, what
31:14would it be like to give a sermon, which
31:15was weird because I would never consider
31:17that.
31:18>> Yeah.
31:19>> And I I I ended up in a in a kind of a
31:23waking dream. I I I kind of a vision. I
31:26saw a crowd of people uh on a hillside
31:31maybe in the south somewhere. They were
31:32all Christians. And for some reason, I
31:35was giving them a sermon. And
31:38I the main thing I told them was if any
31:43of you I told them about my background
31:46and what and you could ask what am I
31:48doing here
31:49>> talking to you guys
31:51>> and I said if any of you think that
31:53Christ doesn't love you
31:56you're wrong because I know that he
31:59loves even me
32:05And
32:07at that point my eyes opened.
32:10I was in shock because I didn't think
32:13those words did not come from me.
32:17I couldn't. They came from outside. But
32:20I had said them.
32:22I burst into tears
32:26and I said out loud, I believe.
32:30And I immediately felt all of this
32:34everything that I was supposed to let go
32:36of.
32:37>> Yeah.
32:37>> Let go it. And and I was born again.
32:41>> And nothing has changed since. And I
32:43just I when I said I believe that was
32:44it. I believe and I'll never stop
32:47believing.
32:48>> That is so powerful. I I mentioned to
32:52you Sai prior to us starting recording
32:55that that was one of the most
32:58powerful moments reading in your book
33:01that I read the even me portion of your
33:04book and started weeping.
33:06>> Yeah.
33:06>> I think so many of us
33:10who maybe are at a same a similar um
33:13place in life where you were just like
33:15I'm just not quite sure. I don't really
33:16know if this is really what I you know I
33:18don't know
33:18>> right
33:19>> and maybe it is the weight of knowing
33:22like I don't know like
33:24>> he wouldn't want me maybe he he wouldn't
33:27want to say I'm not good enough I know
33:29who I am I know the sinner that I am but
33:31for you to say and you knew in your I
33:34think agnosticism at that point
33:37he can save even me
33:40>> he loves even me he was willing to die
33:43on that cross
33:45>> even for me,
33:46>> right?
33:47>> That was powerful for me.
33:50>> Well, thank you. I
33:52>> a few years ago, I was driving in my car
33:54because I was already a Christian. I I
33:56was lay leader of my church. I was very
33:58involved in in the faith. But I was
34:01something I don't remember what it was,
34:02but something had bothered me and I was
34:04not in a good mood. And I was listening
34:05to the radio and I heard a song
34:09a woman who said
34:13you s
34:16you say I am strong but I think I am
34:19weak
34:20was Lauren Dagel
34:23her song I'm okay.
34:24>> You okay? Okay okay okay. her song You
34:26Say and I heard [laughter] that
34:31and it brought it all back and you know
34:35that's that song made her career. She's
34:38a brilliant singer and she's done
34:40beautiful things. She's made beautiful
34:42music
34:44but that song resonated with so many
34:47people.
34:50You say I am strong when I think I am
34:53weak.
34:55You say I am loved.
34:58And and you know and and and those words
35:03more than even me, but they say the same
35:06thing. There's no one beyond the love of
35:09Christ. There is no one beyond the love
35:12of Christ.
35:15And I've known people when when I became
35:17a lay leader in the United Methodist
35:19Church, I went to a class
35:23to learn things about it. And all the
35:26other people who were lay leaders, this
35:28means in their congregation, they were
35:30the leaders who speak directly with the
35:32pastor and communicate with the
35:34congregation.
35:36>> There was
35:39a convict who had been released from
35:41prison. I don't remember the crime, but
35:43it wasn't good.
35:46There was an alcoholic.
35:48There was a woman who had had a horrible
35:51life with her children.
35:56They were all like me. They were all
36:00people who were fallen and they were all
36:04redeemed.
36:06And you know, you can see these stories.
36:08I'm going to give a plug to to uh Janna
36:11Harmon. Uh she she is a amazing
36:16uh chronicler of these stories of people
36:18who came to Christ and the Lewis
36:20Institute.
36:21>> Many of them. I was I was one of her
36:22earlier.
36:24>> Uh
36:24>> I listened to that one.
36:25>> Oh wow.
36:26>> It was Oh, I've done my research.
36:27>> Yes. [laughter]
36:29And you know I I hear some of those
36:31stories now and I get very emotional. I
36:34mean there there's so many people who
36:36have gone through that some kind of
36:39experience where they think well I'm
36:42doomed.
36:42>> Yeah.
36:44>> And the last thing that I will tell you
36:46about this whole journey is when I
36:48talked about forgiveness.
36:51I had a rough childhood. I was it was
36:53violent. I had people in my community
36:57who didn't like me and I got beaten up a
36:59lot. And
37:01>> when you were an atheist or is this
37:02because of
37:03>> Yeah, I was still I was an atheist. I
37:04was a kid,
37:06>> but you know, I didn't go to their
37:08church. These were Catholic kids
37:10>> and they didn't like me.
37:12>> And I I retained a hatred for them and a
37:15and and a uh you know just feeling of
37:19anger that was over overwhelming for
37:22many many years
37:25when I was on the cusp of becoming a
37:27Christian. A Christian woman who I knew
37:30well said to me, I had told her the
37:32story. She said, "You have to forgive
37:34them." And I said, "Absolutely not. I'll
37:36never forgive what they did."
37:38And she said three times, "You have to
37:41forgive them."
37:44And at some point, I just sat there. I
37:46don't know what was going through my
37:48mind.
37:50And finally, again, I burst into tears.
37:53By the way, I never cried before I
37:55became a Christian.
37:56>> [gasps]
37:57>> I burst into tears and I said I forgive
38:00them and I this is before I had the
38:03experience on the highway.
38:05>> Okay.
38:05>> I felt this huge weight pass away from
38:08me as soon as I said that I forgive them
38:13and that was a ma aside from the dreams
38:17and the and the roadside experience that
38:19was a major pull for me to join the
38:22church.
38:23>> How were you able to forgive? That's
38:25>> I don't know.
38:27>> That's a hard one for me personally.
38:28It's hard for me. [clears throat]
38:30>> It was very hard. [snorts]
38:33>> And did I just say the words or did I
38:35mean it? I think I meant it.
38:36>> Yeah.
38:38>> But your the answer to your question is
38:40I don't know. I don't know how I did it.
38:44I think I mean the best thing I can say
38:47is the spirit was there and speaking
38:52through this woman. Do you think you
38:54would have been as impactful as you are
38:56today in your ministry if you hadn't
38:58forgiven them?
38:59>> No. Absolutely not. Not sure I could
39:02have joined the church.
39:05>> Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive
39:08those who trespass against us. It's it's
39:10a basic
39:11>> it's a basic tenant.
39:12>> So that's another thing that I feel like
39:14the Lord was was doing how he was
39:15actively pursuing you. He's like, "Okay,
39:17let me get to that heart issue right
39:18there, that anger. We got to deal with
39:20that."
39:20>> Yes.
39:20>> And so he dealt with that. And then you
39:22had the highway experience, right,
39:24>> where you said, "All right, I believe."
39:26>> That's right.
39:27>> Wow.
39:28>> And they weren't that far apart in time.
39:30They were a few years apart.
39:31>> Okay. That is an incredible story. Now,
39:35you believed in that moment, but
39:38how did you know? How were you convinced
39:40that it was Christianity, Jesus
39:43specifically?
39:44>> Yeah.
39:44>> Was actually true.
39:46>> Right. That's a very good question. So,
39:48I mentioned I looked into Buddhism.
39:49Uh-huh.
39:50>> I also looked into Judaism quite a bit,
39:52but nothing does what Christianity does.
39:56And that's quite simple actually.
40:00God
40:01is very hard to understand and to
40:06define.
40:08I mean, theologians try to talk about
40:11who God is, what God is. They don't
40:14know. Nobody knows. The good ones will
40:16admit we don't know. I mean, you know,
40:18he's the creator. How do we how do we
40:21actually get to study God?
40:24>> Well, God did us a favor. He could see
40:27that people were falling away from him,
40:29right? I mean, just read the Old
40:30Testament, worshiping idols. They were
40:33the Hebrew people were constantly
40:36leaving God because they, you know, they
40:37didn't they couldn't believe.
40:39>> So, he did the world a favor. He sent he
40:42sent himself in the form of his son to
40:44talk to us to be there to actually walk
40:47on the earth. Jesus Christ was God
40:50incarnate.
40:52And he told us what he told us. He said,
40:55"Look, you're doing it wrong. It's not
40:57these laws and these rules that count.
41:00That's not what counts. You you you
41:02don't get to heaven and get to be in
41:04God's favor because you ate this and
41:06didn't eat that. because you did this on
41:09the Sabbath and didn't do that.
41:12You get there because you believe.
41:14That's how you get there.
41:18And what I always say when I talk about
41:20science and faith is what did Jesus not
41:23tell us? He was God incarnate. He could
41:26have told us anything and everything. He
41:28didn't tell us anything about science.
41:30Not a word. He never said by the way
41:32electrons [laughter]
41:35but by the way let me tell you about
41:36proteins
41:37>> right
41:38>> no not a word why not
41:42well I think the answer is clear that
41:44that's our job
41:47>> what do you mean by that
41:48>> that our job is to understand the
41:50natural world and how it works
41:53and the fact that we can understand the
41:56natural world is one of the strongest
41:59evidences for a creator god
42:01Because why why should why should it be
42:04so easy quote unquote to understand
42:07physics and chemistry?
42:10Because we can do it and you know we're
42:12not supernatural. We're humans with a
42:14brain. But you know the equations of the
42:17first equations that that Newton and the
42:18other physicists came up with were
42:20things like F= ma. [laughter]
42:23You know three easy thing. Even the law
42:26of gravity it's just a few terms and it
42:28works perfectly.
42:30And how did all this happen? It happened
42:33because the original scientists, all of
42:36them, and that goes all the way through
42:39history from the beginning of Newton all
42:41the way to the 19th century were devout
42:44Christians. I don't mean they went to
42:45church. I mean people like uh Robert
42:49Bole who was the founder of chemistry.
42:51>> Uh Michael Faraday who was the founder
42:55of electricity.
42:57>> All Christians. Not only Christians,
42:59they wrote more about Christianity than
43:01they did about science.
43:03>> Well, okay, Sai, hold on. I hear the
43:06complete opposite. Of course, that most
43:07scientists are atheists, like they don't
43:09believe in God. And you're telling me,
43:11and I've heard this from another uh
43:13scientist that we've had on the show
43:14that said that that was just completely
43:16wrong.
43:16>> It is completely wrong.
43:19The whole reason that Newton, Galileo,
43:23by the way, was a devout Christian.
43:25Copernicus. All of the original
43:28scientists in physics and astronomy
43:31believed that they could figure out the
43:33natural world was because the natural
43:35world obeyed natural laws given by God.
43:41And those laws were able to be
43:44determined by humans and they were
43:46right. This then spread to chemistry and
43:50it spread to Louis Pasteure, a devout
43:53Christian.
43:55>> So, wait a minute. Okay, hold on because
43:58you're blowing my mind right now. You're
44:00telling me, and obviously it's one of
44:02the books that you wrote, science and
44:04faith can be in harmony. Because so many
44:06of us think, okay, well, no, like if I
44:08become a Christian, then I got to check
44:09my intellect at the door or I have to
44:11just be the person who only, you know,
44:13lives my life in blind faith, blind
44:15belief or something. So you're telling
44:17me there's a harmony there and our some
44:19of the founding fathers in science and
44:20various different
44:21>> all of them
44:22>> all of them
44:23>> no exceptions
44:24>> were Christians
44:25>> voltaire
44:27ampear bolt and amps Christians
44:30>> oh my gosh
44:31>> the list is the list is huge
44:33>> then why is this
44:34>> I'm forgetting half of them
44:35>> why is this myth so popular then
44:37>> it it it is a what I call it it is the
44:39big lie
44:40>> okay
44:41>> it started in the 19th century when
44:43technology phys people in the 19th
44:46century, this is before quantum
44:47mechanics, thought science was over. We
44:50discovered everything. We know
44:51everything. There's nothing left to do.
44:53>> Just a few decimal points. Oh, and of
44:55course biology because biology was not
44:57even considered a science. They thought
44:58of it as metaphysics. Too complicated.
45:01>> Okay.
45:03>> So what happened was
45:05people began thinking
45:08well okay science that's all we need.
45:11Look what it gave us. that gave us, you
45:12know, automobiles, railroads,
45:15telephones, telegraphs, change the
45:18world. That's all we need. We have tech.
45:20We have science gives us technology.
45:22Technology gives us everything. What do
45:24we need this idea of God for? People
45:27used to think that God's through
45:29thunder, that God was responsible for
45:31crops. Now, we know the truth. It's all
45:33science.
45:35And so, two books were written at the
45:38end of the 19th century saying that. one
45:40I let's see if I get the names right.
45:42They were all about the conflict between
45:44God and science.
45:45>> Okay.
45:45>> God and and uh and religion.
45:48>> And it was called the conflict thesis.
45:50>> All right.
45:51>> And this was the idea that the two ideas
45:53religion and science were in direct
45:55conflict. Science was holding relig I'm
45:58sorry. Religion was holding science
46:00back. Science is the way to find truth
46:02and to have a good life. Religion is
46:04outdated, superstitious, unreal.
46:08>> All nonsense.
46:10And that spread into the 20th century.
46:14Uh and Bertin Russell, not again not a
46:16scientist but a philosopher was one of
46:18the main uh spreaders of this lie.
46:21>> Okay.
46:22>> And it it grabbed hold of the culture.
46:25>> Okay. Then I need to there are so many
46:27of us who struggle with feeling like we
46:29have to pick and choose between science
46:31and faith. I know. What would you say to
46:33us Sai us non-scientists who are like
46:35okay wait a minute can I really believe
46:37in the one true living God of the Bible
46:39but also understand and believe in the
46:41natural world in which he's given us and
46:43that we can see the evidence for God in
46:44science
46:45>> not only can you but you must and the
46:48reason is this it's not just that God
46:51and science or or religion and science
46:54Christianity and science are in harmony
46:56it's not just that they're compatible
46:58they depend on each other M
47:01>> because if you really look and I'm
47:03getting this is this is something that I
47:05talk about in the last book a little
47:07bit.
47:07>> Okay,
47:08>> but other people are getting much much
47:10closer to it.
47:12You're not going to have the natural
47:14world without God. If there was no God,
47:18we don't know that there would even be a
47:20universe.
47:21I don't think there would be life
47:24because one of the points I make in that
47:26book is that the origin of life,
47:29why is there life is completely unknown.
47:33Nobody knows how life could have
47:35started. There are theories. None of
47:38them work.
47:39>> Is that what you would suggest is the
47:41strongest piece of evidence to point to
47:44God? I I read something and I'm probably
47:46going to butcher this. A biogenesis.
47:49>> A biogenesis. Genesis is that
47:51>> is is the origin of life by itself.
47:55>> Okay.
47:56>> And I I I think one of the most famous
47:59people who talks about this is is
48:01another friend of mine, James T, okay,
48:03in Texas, who is a chemist, one of the
48:05most brilliant chemists alive.
48:08>> And he can find no chemical way that
48:10life could have started. And he's
48:12absolutely right.
48:14I sometimes say, well, maybe there's
48:17some laws that we don't know yet. Mhm.
48:20>> It could still be, it doesn't have to
48:21be, you know, a miracle from God, but,
48:24you know, we don't even know what a
48:26miracle is. A miracle could be the fact
48:27that we're here is a miracle. You know,
48:30uh there's so many miracles that we see
48:32all the time. Or it could be a natural
48:35law that we haven't discovered yet, but
48:36nobody has a clue what that could be.
48:39But it's not just that we don't know how
48:41life began.
48:44What? And I have a whole chapter in this
48:47latest book, Beyond Evolution, about
48:50this. There are things about life. I
48:53talked about not being able to reproduce
48:55that being able to reproduce itself
48:57perfectly. 99.999%
48:59accuracy. Nothing else can do that.
49:02>> But that's only one thing that life
49:04does.
49:05>> Think about this. You see a stone
49:09on the side of a hill, a maybe a rock,
49:12big rock,
49:14and all of a sudden it rolls downhill.
49:18Why did that happen?
49:19>> Mhm.
49:21>> Well, probably some other rock hit it
49:24and pushed it over and then gravity
49:26brought it all the way down. Everything
49:29in the natural world, everything in the
49:32natural world
49:34only acts or only does things or things
49:38happen to it whatever through natural
49:41easily bound processes. A volcano
49:44explodes because there's pressure from
49:47below. Uh you know the the continental
49:50drifts move because of forces under
49:53under the ground.
49:55Now, let's say you see a rabbit on the
49:57hillside and it begins to move. What
50:01natural force caused it to move?
50:05It decided to move,
50:06>> right?
50:07>> Maybe it saw a fox. Maybe it saw
50:09something to eat.
50:09>> Mhm.
50:11>> That's called agency. That's called
50:13will.
50:15In other words, there was no natural
50:17force that made it go. Now people will
50:20say well what about you know they okay
50:22so they saw the the fox that registered
50:25in their brain the brain then uh you
50:28know said oh this is danger and you had
50:30nerve impulses and that made the legs go
50:34answering the question
50:35>> where did all this come from? How did
50:38how did the how did the rabbit get to
50:40have the ability to see the fox? How was
50:43it able to translate the vision of the
50:45fox to the brain and then come up with
50:48an idea that we should I should move
50:50>> consciousness
50:51>> consciousness
50:54uh cognition
50:55>> cognition
50:55>> which is a primitive form of
50:58consciousness. It turns out we now know
51:01and this is new data this is new
51:03information that not every biologist
51:05understands. Okay.
51:08>> Every living creature from bacteria on
51:11up exhibit agency, [snorts] conscious
51:15and co agency, cognition
51:19and purpose, teiology.
51:21>> Okay. Can we can we unpack that because
51:24in your books you made a very
51:28clear distinction between intelligent
51:32design
51:32>> Yes.
51:33>> and divine design. you said something
51:36and please correct me if I'm wrong
51:38>> like you said bacteria can even show
51:40like intelligence like there's living or
51:43that that can show intelligence but
51:44there's something very different when
51:47you're talking about in intelligent
51:49design and divine like this was God
51:52>> I I don't think I don't think I'm
51:54meaning something completely different
51:55when I say that I prefer the word divine
51:57because intelligent we're intelligent
51:59and we can't do any of this stuff we
52:01can't make life we can take all the chem
52:04we know every chem chemical that's in a
52:05living cell. I mean, and we know how
52:07much of it and we know where they are.
52:09We can't build a cell.
52:13>> Yeah.
52:13>> With all that?
52:14>> Nope.
52:15>> We can't build We We don't have to We
52:17don't have to, you know, figure out how
52:19do these chemicals get made. We have
52:21them. We We know them. They're on our
52:23shelves. They're on our lab shelves. We
52:25can take all the proteins, all the
52:27genes, all the RNA, lipids, everything,
52:31put it together, put it in a vesicle,
52:33put it under a membrane, nothing. So,
52:37you're saying life exists,
52:40life reproduces, life uh acts
52:43purposefully, life produces conscious
52:46minds, all of which can't be accurately
52:49described by physics and matter alone.
52:51It has to point to God, right? How does
52:53this inform our faith? The premise of
52:55this show, 1st Peter 3:15, we talked
52:57about it. It's about equipping
52:58Christians to be able to share and
53:00defend their faith and that they have in
53:02Jesus. H take it home for us, S. Like,
53:04how can we use that information to
53:07better equip ourselves and strengthen
53:09our own faith?
53:10>> I'll say it in a very short
53:13sound bite.
53:13>> Okay?
53:15>> If you want to see evidence for God,
53:18look in the mirror.
53:22If there was no God, you would not be
53:23here. You're a human being.
53:26You should not be here. If there was no
53:28God, nothing alive should be here. The
53:31the the universe is dead. It's it it
53:35doesn't have agency. It doesn't
53:37reproduce itself. It doesn't have a
53:40purpose.
53:42It doesn't have any cognition at all. It
53:44doesn't know about its environ. It
53:45doesn't know anything. It doesn't know.
53:47An E.coli E coli bacteria knows where it
53:50is. It knows if it's alone or with other
53:53E.coli. It knows if there's some food
53:56nearby. It knows if there are enemies
53:58coming to eat it. It knows all of this
54:01because of chemical signals that it can
54:03take and then it interprets them and
54:05then it acts on them for the purpose of
54:08staying alive and reproducing.
54:12Nothing else does that. Only life and
54:15all of life. And to me, if you say
54:18that's not evidence for God, tell me
54:20what it is.
54:21>> I don't think humans are simply an
54:24evolutionary product.
54:25>> Gotcha.
54:27>> Because you can't use evolution to
54:29explain why we're doing what we're doing
54:33and how we're doing it.
54:35>> Yeah.
54:36>> What is this thing?
54:37>> Right.
54:38>> We can't explain
54:40all the beautiful books that we've
54:42talked about. We can't explain the
54:44artwork and mostly we can't explain
54:46music.
54:48>> I can't tell you why if I hear Lauren
54:51Dagel sing, you know, [sighs and gasps]
54:54that's it. That's all I do. I listen.
54:56>> I'm curious. You mentioned like We can't
54:58explain all these beautiful books that
54:59we just mentioned. What was it about
55:02the Bible though specifically that led
55:06you to believe that it was actually
55:08history and not just some madeup piece
55:11of literature somewhere? Well, my views
55:13of the Bible are very complicated and
55:16have been evolving.
55:18>> Okay.
55:18>> When I first started reading the Old
55:19Testament, I did not like it. [laughter]
55:24>> I didn't understand it. I didn't like
55:26it. Genesis was okay. But,
55:29>> you know, when you start talking about
55:31Numbers and Deuteronomy and and even
55:34some of the Joshua, you know, and all
55:36this military stuff,
55:38>> h I didn't care for it. Um, but I was
55:42ignorant. I was uneducated. I had never
55:44taken a course in a Bible. I mean, I
55:46nothing. I knew nothing.
55:48>> Luckily, I started reading the Old
55:50Testament. And that changed my mind.
55:53>> You mean the New Testament?
55:54>> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The New Testament.
55:57>> Now, I already told you that I read part
55:58of Matthew. But after I became a
56:00Christian or maybe even before that, I
56:02started reading the book of Acts.
56:04>> And you know, one of my my favorite
56:07subject in school was not science. It
56:08was history. And I love history.
56:10>> Huh.
56:11>> And when I read the book of Acts, I said
56:14to myself, this is not made up. This is
56:17historical. This is how people write
56:19actual events that happen in history.
56:22And that really shook me because then I
56:25started really thinking, well, maybe
56:26Jesus was real. You know, I I
56:28>> Yeah.
56:29>> And then I read the other I read the
56:31other gospels. I started reading Paul's
56:33letters. And some of them are hard, you
56:35know, unless you have a background or an
56:37education.
56:38>> [gasps]
56:39>> But then I read books about them, you
56:42know. I read Oh, NT Wright is my
56:45favorite theologian and had the
56:47incredible fortune and honor of meeting
56:49him once.
56:50>> Really? What a wonderful
56:51>> You met Ent Wright?
56:52>> I met him. Yeah,
56:53>> I have his books. Like we all had to
56:55study him in seminary.
56:56>> He's he's incredible.
56:57>> His book on the resurrection. Is that
56:59what it I h incredible read.
57:02>> Yeah. His his book he has a book called
57:04Paul which
57:06>> is just incredible. Anyway, a wonderful
57:08man, a wonderful scholar. Uh, and you
57:11know, that was helpful, extremely
57:13helpful. Uh, I'm in a Bible study group
57:16now at my church and they keep asking me
57:19to lead lead chapters and I I who am I?
57:21I mean, I don't know. I'm not I don't
57:23know anything.
57:24>> Yeah.
57:24>> But I've been reading a lot. And and the
57:28thing about the New Testament for me, it
57:30makes sense. I don't see one part of the
57:32New Testament that you could argue with.
57:35Why would you argue with it? It's so
57:37self
57:39uh consistent and clear
57:42and you read the book of John and you
57:46just say, "Wow, you know, this could
57:48have been written 10 years ago." I mean,
57:51it it's it's profound.
57:54Luke is incredibly thorough. I mean, he
57:58covers everything. And how can you doubt
58:01everything? Maybe he made up one thing,
58:04but he couldn't have possibly made it
58:05all up.
58:06>> No human can do that.
58:08>> And of course, all of these people were
58:11martyed for their beliefs. All the all
58:13the apostles.
58:15>> And
58:16>> no one dies what they know is a lie.
58:19>> That's right.
58:19>> And they would have known what they was
58:22a lie.
58:22>> And and you know the thing about
58:24science, and this is really important,
58:25and I wanted to have a chance to say
58:27this, the Bible is constant. Science is
58:31not. It keeps changing.
58:33>> That's part of the nature of science.
58:36>> So if people say why didn't Jesus teach
58:38us science, you have to ask them which
58:40one? The science [clears throat] of his
58:42day. The science of 1870, both of which
58:45would be wrong. The science of today,
58:48which in 30 years, people will say,
58:50"Well, that's not right." The science of
58:5350 years from now, a thousand years, we
58:56don't know. We don't know when we'll
58:57finally say, "Okay, now we know
58:59everything." Probably never.
59:01>> Yeah.
59:02>> I love that you mentioned um just being
59:05intentional about reading the Bible in
59:07its proper context. It's just blowing my
59:09mind that you're coming out of atheism
59:13and out of all of the religions you you
59:15picked, you and not even picked that you
59:18determined, you were convinced was true.
59:20It was Christianity and you understood
59:23that the Bible was actually God's word.
59:26Yes. So many people will say, "No, that
59:27was just written by men over 2,000 years
59:29ago, and man is flawed, so the Bible's
59:30flawed. I can't get with that. I'm not
59:31going to get with that."
59:32>> I'm absolutely convinced that when my
59:34time comes and I finally, you know, get
59:37to meet our savior.
59:40I will read NUMBERS AND SAY, "OH, THAT'S
59:43what it means. Thank you, Lord. I had no
59:47idea."
59:48What would you say to fellow skeptics or
59:51um even I don't know some of us who are
59:55just trying to share the hope and faith
59:57that we have in the validity, the
59:58trustworthiness of the Bible. What would
1:00:00you say to someone
1:00:03to help strengthen them and understand
1:00:06that the Bible is truly the word of God?
1:00:08>> I would say don't start with the Old
1:00:10Testament. Start with the New Testament
1:00:13>> and work backward.
1:00:14>> Okay? Because the New Testament does
1:00:17refer back to the Old Testament an awful
1:00:19lot. A lot of the things Jesus said were
1:00:22direct quotes from the Old Testament
1:00:25because he was a scholar.
1:00:26>> Yeah.
1:00:27>> But if you start with the with the Old
1:00:29Testament, you're not the things there
1:00:31may be things that trap you like they
1:00:33trap me.
1:00:33>> Yeah.
1:00:35Uh but if you start with the New
1:00:36Testament and you begin to see that
1:00:38Jesus was real,
1:00:41that Jesus is really the son of God and
1:00:43he was a defender of the law.
1:00:48He came to he came to fulfill it.
1:00:51>> Yeah.
1:00:52>> But he was a defender of the law and he
1:00:55knew the Old Testament. And if you then
1:00:57look at the Old Testament from Christian
1:01:00eyesh
1:01:02>> I think it's a lot easier than just
1:01:03reading it from scratch
1:01:05>> without knowing anything.
1:01:07>> The resurrection I mean Paul talks about
1:01:09like hey the resurrection didn't happen.
1:01:11We're all lost. Like we're all lost in
1:01:12our sin. How did you know as a former
1:01:14atheist? How did you get convinced that
1:01:18the resurrection was true specifically?
1:01:21>> That's a that's an excellent question.
1:01:23Uh I actually um wasn't sure about that.
1:01:28There there were two things I was not
1:01:30sure of when I first started coming to
1:01:31faith. One was the resurrection and one
1:01:33was the holy trinity. Mhm.
1:01:35>> And the resurrection
1:01:37that was a largely a result of reading
1:01:42uh uh the case for Christ by Lee Stroel,
1:01:45another friend of mine
1:01:47>> and and and his
1:01:50interviews with uh scholars who made
1:01:55amazing cases. I forgot the name of the
1:01:57main person. It just went out of my
1:01:58head.
1:01:59>> Sorry.
1:01:59>> Uh who who made great cases for the
1:02:02reality of the resurrection. And then
1:02:04there are so many other circumstantial
1:02:06things, you know, like what's the
1:02:08alternative? I mean, you know, was it a
1:02:11conspiracy by the Christians? They
1:02:13buried the body. No, come on. [laughter]
1:02:15Come, come on. All of that has been
1:02:17debunked. Jay Warner Wallace also has a
1:02:19wonderful, wonderful discussion of
1:02:20>> the stolen body theory, the
1:02:22hallucination theory.
1:02:23>> She talks about, you know, that Colecase
1:02:25Christianity is another great
1:02:27[clears throat] book.
1:02:27>> It's a good one.
1:02:28>> And and so those books really helped
1:02:30convince me. And then I realized what
1:02:33Paul said is true. I mean, it all
1:02:35depends on that. And I believe in Jesus
1:02:37Christ as my Lord and Savior. And if
1:02:38there's no resurrection, that belief is
1:02:40nonsense.
1:02:40>> Yeah.
1:02:42>> And I'll just say in terms of the Holy
1:02:44Trinity, I couldn't understand. It
1:02:47doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And I
1:02:50I remember this is way back. I had not
1:02:52yet become a Christian, but I was
1:02:53thinking about it. I I went to see a
1:02:55priest
1:02:56uh and I asked him about it and he said,
1:03:02"Well,
1:03:04it's a very complicated answer and we
1:03:07have the answers and you can read the
1:03:09theology books about them, but I'll tell
1:03:11you what I think. It's a mystery."
1:03:14>> And when he said that, I remembered all
1:03:16the things I thought about quantum
1:03:18mechanics, the uncertainty principle,
1:03:21the genetic code. Yep. And I said,
1:03:24"Good. Now I believe it."
1:03:26>> Okay?
1:03:27>> Because it's a mystery and mysteries are
1:03:29often
1:03:31the truth disguised in a way that we
1:03:34can't quite understand.
1:03:35>> Now, I think I have an innate
1:03:37understanding of the Trinity that it is
1:03:40that God is one and it's father, son,
1:03:43and holy spirit. But I can't explain it
1:03:46either. In fact, I recently did a
1:03:48children's lesson in in my church where
1:03:51I said exactly this and they got it.
1:03:55[laughter]
1:03:55>> That's good. No, you've often said that,
1:03:59you know, folks who are wrestling with
1:04:01some questions like, "Hey, I don't
1:04:02really understand how this works or I'm
1:04:03not even quite certain about this." You
1:04:04said that doubt is a part of faith.
1:04:07>> Yes.
1:04:07>> What do you mean by that? And how
1:04:11>> I don't know what's a word of
1:04:12encouragement for some of us because it
1:04:14reminds me of like Mark 9. I I can't
1:04:16remember the verse, but it's the guy who
1:04:17says like, "I believe, but help my
1:04:18unbelief."
1:04:19>> Yes. Yes.
1:04:20>> What do you say to the person who's
1:04:21wrestling
1:04:22>> with doubts and questions?
1:04:23>> I think it's impossible not to doubt.
1:04:26>> I mean, think about it.
1:04:29You can see a c you can see a couple
1:04:31that are madly in love with each other.
1:04:33They've just met. They just got married,
1:04:35whatever.
1:04:37>> And you might say, "I'm not sure." You
1:04:40know, does he really love her? I'm a
1:04:42little doubtful. Mhm.
1:04:44>> Doubt is a natural normal human thing
1:04:49>> that is actually probably useful in ways
1:04:51because if you believe everything right
1:04:53away completely without any question,
1:04:55you may end up getting in trouble. Yeah.
1:04:57>> You know, somebody comes over to you and
1:04:59says,
1:05:01"Hey, you look nice. Come on over with
1:05:03me. I want to talk to you." Well, you
1:05:05might want to doubt them. Maybe they
1:05:06have some other motive in mind, right? I
1:05:08mean,
1:05:09>> you don't want to be paranoid, but
1:05:11doubts can be sa can be saving. So, it's
1:05:14a natural human condition to be
1:05:17doubtful.
1:05:19I don't doubt the reality of Jesus
1:05:21Christ, but there are times when I doubt
1:05:23that I'm that I'm saved. There are times
1:05:25that I doubt,
1:05:27you know, that God loves me still. It
1:05:30goes away.
1:05:32Uh prayer helps and prayer is actually
1:05:36the best medicine for doubt.
1:05:38If you begin to doubt anything, if you
1:05:40begin to doubt yourself, if you begin to
1:05:43doubt somebody else close to you, if you
1:05:45begin to doubt God or Jesus, pray,
1:05:49>> say to God, "Lord,
1:05:52what the prayer you just said, help me
1:05:54in my unbelief. Help me in my doubts.
1:05:57Show me, help me see the truth, the path
1:06:01that I want to follow." And he will.
1:06:06Now, what you have to do is you have to
1:06:08be aware of how he's doing it because
1:06:12you can never predict [laughter] in
1:06:14advance.
1:06:15>> Yeah.
1:06:15>> When and how he will do it, but he will.
1:06:18>> You mentioned that sometimes you you
1:06:20doubt like God, do you love me?
1:06:23Sometimes I doubt God, do you care?
1:06:28>> Do you care?
1:06:28>> Right.
1:06:29>> Like what am I going through?
1:06:31circumstances, whether it's health or
1:06:33family members, it's like,
1:06:36do you care? Do you care that you know
1:06:38what I'm going through? Like, don't you
1:06:39see it? You know,
1:06:40>> there are two words to answer that. It's
1:06:42in the B. It's in the It's in the the
1:06:43gospels. Jesus wept.
1:06:46Why would he weep if he didn't care?
1:06:48>> Yep. I think that's important to
1:06:50remember. It's it's easy to forget those
1:06:52things.
1:06:52>> It's easy to forget, but he cares. So I
1:06:56have to ask Sai
1:06:58once you became a Christian
1:07:01>> and you didn't become a Christian till
1:07:02you were well in your 40s.
1:07:04>> Oh god beyond that.
1:07:05>> Okay.
1:07:06>> Yours late 50s.
1:07:08>> Yeah.
1:07:09>> Okay. There were you're I'm sure your
1:07:12community was mostly atheists.
1:07:15>> So how did your community respond?
1:07:18>> I got to know because I have friends and
1:07:21I know I have co-workers. Some of us
1:07:23like we feel like, "Oh, I'm the only
1:07:24Christian in my family or or something
1:07:26like that and we feel alone." And it's
1:07:27like, how did you deal with that? How
1:07:30did your community respond to you when
1:07:33you're full-fledged adult? It's not like
1:07:34you came to Christ at 18. Like, you're
1:07:36well off in your life.
1:07:37>> I was right right in the middle of my
1:07:39career. Um, by the way, I didn't get
1:07:43baptized until I was 65.
1:07:45>> Wow. So, you know, I be I felt I felt as
1:07:49a Christian, but I didn't know I wasn't
1:07:51part of a church. I didn't know where to
1:07:53go. I didn't know what church to go to.
1:07:54I was doing a lot of traveling back and
1:07:56forth to different places. And
1:08:00>> I finally decided I needed to I really
1:08:03needed to get baptized and I did at that
1:08:05point. So, it's been like
1:08:0814 years now. Uh, but the answer to your
1:08:12question is not one I'm proud of.
1:08:16I didn't tell anybody.
1:08:18>> I didn't know what to do with it. I
1:08:20didn't know there were any other
1:08:21scientists who were Christians, much
1:08:23like many people.
1:08:26And then I saw a book that was published
1:08:29around the same time that this happened
1:08:32a couple years later by Francis Collins
1:08:34called The Language of God. Now, I knew
1:08:36who Francis Collins was. He's one of the
1:08:38most famous science scientists in
1:08:41genetics, which is what I worked on.
1:08:44I had no idea he was a Christian. I read
1:08:47that book and it bowled me over because
1:08:51he talked about his coming to faith and
1:08:53how he's a devout Christian. And I I
1:08:55said, "Well, there's two of us."
1:08:59And I didn't know that there are
1:09:01thousands and thousands of scientists in
1:09:04America who are Christians. And I did
1:09:06find out eventually. I went to a
1:09:08conference uh an organization called the
1:09:10American Scientific Affiliation. which
1:09:13is a group, it's actually the oldest
1:09:16group in the US of Christians who are
1:09:18scientists
1:09:20and I became a member and I'm now uh I
1:09:22now edit one of their magazines called
1:09:25God and Nature. I'm the editor-in chief
1:09:27of that.
1:09:28>> Wow. But your family
1:09:29>> Okay. Like how did you tell?
1:09:31>> Well, my my parents had passed on when I
1:09:35became a Christian.
1:09:37>> Uh I was thinking about it while my
1:09:39father was still alive, but I didn't
1:09:41talk to him about it at all. he would
1:09:42have been horribly upset. Uh my sister
1:09:46who's older than I uh had grown up like
1:09:49I did but had come to to various faiths
1:09:52earlier and she is a person of faith
1:09:56now. She's not a Christian uh but she is
1:09:58does believe in God. She's a theist.
1:10:01So uh in terms of friends, I've had all
1:10:06kinds of reactions. Uh
1:10:09I would say the most common reaction is
1:10:12oh that's interesting and drop it.
1:10:15>> Yeah.
1:10:16>> Uh I have have I tried to convert some
1:10:20of my friends not many. Maybe one or two
1:10:24who I thought were already on the path.
1:10:25Mhm.
1:10:26>> But what I do try to do, and I think the
1:10:29whole purpose of everything I've written
1:10:30and everything I do, including this
1:10:32broadcast, is to reach a very specific
1:10:35group of people who you've alluded to.
1:10:37And that is especially students or young
1:10:40people who love science
1:10:44and maybe at some point a professor or a
1:10:47teacher said to them, "Well, if you want
1:10:48to be a scientist, you have to give up
1:10:49your faith. The two can't go together."
1:10:52That's not true. That is an absolute
1:10:55lie. Don't believe it.
1:10:59>> Uh
1:10:59>> you're living proof.
1:11:00>> I'm sorry.
1:11:01>> You're living proof.
1:11:02>> Yeah.
1:11:02>> That
1:11:03>> and there are many of us. There are many
1:11:05I'm not the only There are many many of
1:11:07us. And historically, if you had said
1:11:09this to Louis Pasteure or or you know uh
1:11:13Michael Faraday or any of the all the
1:11:17people I mentioned and many others, they
1:11:18would have said, "What? Are you nuts?
1:11:21This is a crazy lie." that is just not
1:11:24true and never been true and
1:11:27unfortunately it's taken hold of the
1:11:29culture.
1:11:29>> So what can we share with the parent or
1:11:32the [sighs and gasps] the aunt or the
1:11:34uncle or someone who has a child or
1:11:37their nephew or niece who's wrestling
1:11:39with exactly that? I've heard stories
1:11:41sigh of kids going to school and their
1:11:43their teacher saying you better check
1:11:45your your faith at the door because
1:11:46science is about to dismantle all of
1:11:48that. What would you say to those people
1:11:49to encourage kids? say is this word that
1:11:52is very popular this phrase very popular
1:11:55now which I don't particularly like but
1:11:56it works do your research
1:11:58>> okay
1:11:59>> and that means read books now I of
1:12:01course we have my books here but I'm not
1:12:03just going to this is not just to push
1:12:05my books uh there have been many books
1:12:08written by very good scientists John
1:12:11Lennox I'm just going to mention names
1:12:13uh a mathematician in England who's run
1:12:15who's written a a series of excellent
1:12:17books Steven Meyer at the Discovery
1:12:20Institute. Signature in the cell is one
1:12:22of his books. Uh Michael Guillan wrote
1:12:25wrote a book very similar to mine only
1:12:27he's a physicist
1:12:28>> and he wrote a book about how he came to
1:12:30faith. Uh there's a book coming out by a
1:12:33woman named Sarah Salviander who's a
1:12:35very good friend of mine. It'll be out
1:12:37in a year or so. She's an astronomer and
1:12:40she was an atheist and she came to faith
1:12:43very similar to way I did.
1:12:45>> I I it goes on and on. There's a huge
1:12:48library of excellent books being written
1:12:50on this and I apologize to anyone whose
1:12:52name I didn't mention and forgot to
1:12:54mention but there are it it's
1:12:58luckily the age which only lasted a few
1:13:02years of the new atheism where everybody
1:13:04was reading the god delusion and
1:13:07>> you know god is not great and all these
1:13:09horrible books written by the new
1:13:11atheists that's over.
1:13:13>> Yeah. Even Richard Dawkins himself, he's
1:13:17not a Christian, but he's no longer
1:13:19saying the kinds of things he used to
1:13:20say.
1:13:21>> Okay?
1:13:22>> And instead, we now have a lot of books
1:13:24talking about science and faith
1:13:26together. And and
1:13:28read a few of them. You don't need to
1:13:30read all of them. Read a couple. We all
1:13:32pretty much say the same kind of thing,
1:13:34only in different ways.
1:13:35>> Okay. I know we've been talking for a
1:13:38while now. Let me know if you need a
1:13:39break or anything like that. Um, I would
1:13:42love to hear about your church
1:13:45experience.
1:13:46>> Okay.
1:13:47>> Uh, what happened when you went to
1:13:50church? There was a moment where you
1:13:51went to church and you were expecting
1:13:55>> fire and brimstone and damnation
1:13:58and something different happened there
1:14:01that I would love to talk about.
1:14:04>> It was crazy. I had never up until this
1:14:06point and here I was in my 40s and the
1:14:09woman who brought me to the church was
1:14:10the same one who told me to forgive. She
1:14:12was a Catholic
1:14:14>> and
1:14:16I had never literally never walked into
1:14:19any place of worship, church, synagogue,
1:14:22nothing
1:14:23>> my whole life.
1:14:24>> I had been in one church once to hear a
1:14:26concert, but there was no church
1:14:28service.
1:14:28>> Okay.
1:14:29>> I had never heard a church service.
1:14:33Oh, and I was in one synagogue once at a
1:14:35friend's bar mitzvah when I was, you
1:14:37know, that age. Roughly that age. That's
1:14:39it. Those are the two times I'd ever
1:14:41been. So here, this woman asked me to go
1:14:43to church with her. I said, "Are you
1:14:44kidding? I'm not going to church. What?
1:14:46They're going to throw things at me.
1:14:47They're going to stone me." You know,
1:14:49>> she said, "Come on." So I went and I
1:14:52walked in and I was terrified. I was
1:14:55really scared. I didn't know what to do.
1:14:57I sat down.
1:15:00I didn't understand what was going on.
1:15:01We stood up. We sat down. Somebody was
1:15:04playing. People were singing. I don't
1:15:06know. It wasn't bad. It just I didn't
1:15:07know what was happening.
1:15:08>> Yeah.
1:15:09>> And then and then the priest got up and
1:15:11and gave a sermon and I said, "Oh, here
1:15:13it comes." I I expected, you know, he's
1:15:15going to look right at me and say, "Fire
1:15:18and brimstone are in your f." [laughter]
1:15:20He gave a beautiful sermon. It was all
1:15:22about love.
1:15:24>> Just love.
1:15:27what love means,
1:15:30why love is important.
1:15:33I said, "What? What [laughter] is going
1:15:35on here?"
1:15:36And I was I was moved. I was incredibly
1:15:40moved. And and then we all stood up
1:15:43and we all gave each other the peace of
1:15:45Christ. We shook hands. The man in front
1:15:49of me.
1:15:53>> Okay.
1:15:56>> The man in front of me turned around and
1:15:59I looked at him and he was sick. He was
1:16:01not well. You could tell. My first
1:16:04thought was AIDS, but I didn't know. I
1:16:06could have been anything. He was not in
1:16:08good shape. And he held out his hand.
1:16:10And I thought, "Oh my god." I shook his
1:16:12hand and I said what everybody was
1:16:14saying, "Peace of Christ." And he said,
1:16:15"Peace of Christ to me.
1:16:19and every this was a church on the upper
1:16:22west side of Manhattan. It was a church
1:16:24run by
1:16:26uh
1:16:27friars
1:16:29and everybody was there, all races, I
1:16:33mean, black people, Hispanic people, all
1:16:37kinds of people, you know, that's who
1:16:38lives in Manhattan.
1:16:40>> They were all there. They all took part
1:16:45[sighs]
1:16:46and I just got moved. I mean, wow. I've
1:16:50never seen anything like this.
1:16:52>> Why were you so moved? S
1:16:53>> I never seen anything like it. The
1:16:55closest I came to was, you know, maybe
1:16:57at Woodstock where I went to Woodstock
1:16:59and I saw people, you know, expressing
1:17:01love. [laughter] You know, I was a
1:17:03hippie. What do you want? You know, I'm
1:17:05a boomer. And and and that was the only
1:17:08thing that it was close to. And and this
1:17:10was apparently this went on every week,
1:17:13you know, this place. [sighs and gasps]
1:17:16And I I was bowled away. I was bowled
1:17:19away. I It's amazing. And I have to say
1:17:21one more thing. I hope I hold it
1:17:23together. [gasps] I went back to that
1:17:25church about two two years later.
1:17:30>> It's okay.
1:17:31>> And the same guy was there and he was
1:17:34fine.
1:17:37He looked fine.
1:17:40I don't know [laughter]
1:17:43>> when I read that part in your book, your
1:17:47church experience, I feel like there's
1:17:48so many people that have that same idea
1:17:51of church and Christianity. Oh, that's
1:17:53the that's the hateful religion. It's
1:17:54all about hate. It's horrible. There's
1:17:57fire and brimstone and all the things
1:17:58when scripture truly
1:18:00>> that's what I believed. That's what I
1:18:01believed.
1:18:02>> But scripture is truly the greatest love
1:18:04story ever.
1:18:04>> Of course.
1:18:05>> And so I I was moved by that part. Sai
1:18:08and I'm actually wondering as a former
1:18:11atheist
1:18:13would you say that love how we are kind
1:18:17to each other how our demeanor is with
1:18:20other people that that could be one of
1:18:22the strongest apologetics
1:18:25simply
1:18:26>> is absolutely the strongest apologetic.
1:18:28I absolutely feel that way. I
1:18:32how often does Jesus talk about love? I
1:18:34mean constantly constantly
1:18:36[clears throat] constantly. How often do
1:18:37we hear it from our faith leaders, from
1:18:41everybody? Uh,
1:18:44love is what it's all about. And I'm
1:18:47almost at the point where I'm beginning
1:18:48to think that the best overall unified
1:18:51theory of science is love.
1:18:54>> That's good.
1:18:56>> You know, I mean, it's it's it's
1:18:58everything. And yeah,
1:19:01>> so for the person who is like, I don't
1:19:03know if I want to go to church because
1:19:05of that reason, you described in this
1:19:07book so well um the works of his the
1:19:10works of his hands, I believe. Um where
1:19:12you're just like, they're going to
1:19:13they're going to sniff me out. They know
1:19:15I'm not supposed to be here. They know
1:19:16that I'm not a believer. So like to the
1:19:18person who's like, I don't know if I
1:19:19want to go to church because
1:19:21>> they're going to sniff me out. It's
1:19:22going to be fire and brimstone. And of
1:19:24course, like I don't know what their
1:19:25what their circumstance is going to be,
1:19:26but what word of encouragement would you
1:19:28give to that person who's like, "Yeah, I
1:19:30I agree with Sai. I I wouldn't want to
1:19:32go to church for those exact same
1:19:33reasons."
1:19:34>> It's up to us to encourage people.
1:19:38And that means let them know you can't
1:19:41do anything wrong here. This is a holy
1:19:43place. Jesus is watching us all,
1:19:46including you. You can't do anything
1:19:48wrong.
1:19:50There's no rule. I mean, there are
1:19:52rules. We know there are rules in
1:19:53church. But if you you are you are a
1:19:58special person. If you're here for the
1:19:59first time,
1:20:01if you're here, maybe you came back
1:20:04after leaving. You
1:20:06>> you were brought up Christian and then
1:20:08at at age 15, 16, whatever, you walked
1:20:11away and now you're 35 and you have kids
1:20:14and you want to come back and you don't
1:20:15know what to do.
1:20:17>> Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter.
1:20:19H
1:20:20>> you're not going to be held to account.
1:20:22>> That's good.
1:20:23>> You're not going to have to pay a price.
1:20:25You're back.
1:20:26>> One of the things that I found that was
1:20:28common throughout all the books that I
1:20:30read was how many Christians were
1:20:33secretly Christian. Like they weren't
1:20:35overtly sharing the hope and faith that
1:20:37they had in Jesus.
1:20:38>> Was me for many years.
1:20:39>> So what what would you say to encourage
1:20:42that person who's like I just don't
1:20:43know. I'm not a scientist. I didn't go
1:20:45to seminary. I don't know how to share
1:20:47the gospel with other people. Well, I
1:20:48don't know how to defend my faith. What
1:20:50would you say to that person? And is
1:20:52there some science tips and tricks that
1:20:54you could share with them if they're
1:20:56wrestling with reconciling science and
1:20:58faith? What would you say?
1:21:00>> Well, what I would say to the person who
1:21:04doesn't feels uncomfortable sharing the
1:21:07faith.
1:21:09It depends on who they are. But I would
1:21:11say pretty much try to quote the words
1:21:14from the last paragraph in the book of
1:21:17Matthew
1:21:19where Jesus appears to the apostles for
1:21:21the last time before he ascends to
1:21:24heaven. And what is the last thing he
1:21:26says to them? Go and make disciples of
1:21:29all nations.
1:21:32All nations.
1:21:34Go. And in other words, he's saying go
1:21:36out and preach the word. bring everyone
1:21:39into the faith.
1:21:40>> Yeah.
1:21:41>> No exceptions.
1:21:44In terms of the science,
1:21:46that would have to be a conversation.
1:21:48Not just what I would say. I'd have to
1:21:49ask, "What do they think?" And if they
1:21:52said, "Well, science tells us
1:21:53everything. We don't need faith." I'd
1:21:54say, "Okay, well, I explained a lot of
1:21:57what I just said here. That's not true."
1:22:00>> And uh whatever whatever they think. I
1:22:03mean, when when it's more common,
1:22:06however, for people to say, "If I have
1:22:09to choose between the two, I'm going to
1:22:12choose science." Yeah.
1:22:14>> Because I know it's true.
1:22:16>> And faith is just belief. It's just
1:22:18faith. I don't know if it's true.
1:22:21>> That that is those are the people who
1:22:24really need to be told no,
1:22:29that that's a lie. There's science is
1:22:33actually yes it's true when it works but
1:22:37there is not one scientific principle
1:22:40that is not capable of being overturned
1:22:42by further evidence. This is a absolute
1:22:46axiom of all scientists. All scientists
1:22:49know that and so every scientist knows
1:22:52that science quote the science that we
1:22:55know today is not the answer. It's not
1:22:56the the final answer. Yeah.
1:22:58>> We're going to be learning more and more
1:22:59things all the time.
1:23:01The Bible is the final answer.
1:23:04There's no there's no new Bible, okay?
1:23:07You could trans. It's not going to
1:23:09change. And so those truths
1:23:13are
1:23:14universal and immortal. They don't go
1:23:16away.
1:23:19The truths of science are true.
1:23:21>> Yeah.
1:23:21>> As far as we know, the Bible is true
1:23:26as far as we believe.
1:23:28And those two truths will eventually,
1:23:30and this is something I believed from
1:23:32the bottom of my heart, will eventually
1:23:34be not only harmonious, which they are
1:23:36now, but they'll be telling the exact
1:23:39same story.
1:23:42>> S you've mentioned that you've described
1:23:44science as a distilled doxology, pure
1:23:48worship.
1:23:49>> Pure worship.
1:23:50>> What do you mean by that? And how is
1:23:51science an act of worship unto God?
1:23:55You know, the idea that science is an
1:23:57act of worship was, I believe, and I may
1:24:00have to be corrected on this, but I
1:24:02believe was first promulgated by some of
1:24:04the early scientists like Isaac Newton
1:24:06and some others. Why? Because when you
1:24:10do science, what are you doing? You're
1:24:13asking questions.
1:24:15How does the world work? How do how do
1:24:18animals work? How do plants work? How do
1:24:20stones and planets work?
1:24:23You're asking about how God's creation
1:24:27works.
1:24:29>> You're investigating God's creation.
1:24:32You're investigating God, the works of
1:24:35God, the works of his hands. That's what
1:24:38you're doing when you're doing science.
1:24:39What else are you? We don't need to do
1:24:41science. I mean, human humanity didn't
1:24:44need to do science. It helped when we
1:24:47did it because we got technology which
1:24:48helps us live. But that's a side
1:24:50benefit. That's not why scientists do
1:24:52science.
1:24:54Scientists don't do science because they
1:24:55think they're going to come up with a
1:24:56new a new cell phone or a new, you know,
1:24:59something. They do it because they want
1:25:00to understand how the natural world
1:25:03works. Gotcha.
1:25:04>> Whether it's physics, chemistry, or
1:25:06biology or geology, whatever it is, how
1:25:08does it work? And sometimes the results
1:25:11lead to technology, which is wonderful,
1:25:13but that's a side effect. What discovery
1:25:15though as we're closing, what discovery
1:25:18in biochemistry still leaves you in awe
1:25:20of God and helps you see his glory more
1:25:23clearly today?
1:25:24>> I I think it's what I said before. It's
1:25:26the process of of protein synthesis
1:25:29which is which is actually the most
1:25:31fundament people often you'll hear
1:25:34people say that evolution is the
1:25:36fundamental principle of life. Actually
1:25:38no. The fundamental principle of life is
1:25:40inheritance. The fact that we can inher
1:25:44that we inherit almost everything and by
1:25:47we I mean all life cells you know plants
1:25:50bacteria us animals
1:25:53>> we are able to we are copies of our
1:25:56parents not complete copies we look
1:25:59different obviously there are
1:26:00differences
1:26:01>> but when it comes down to the actual
1:26:02biochemical workings of ourselves we're
1:26:04almost identical
1:26:06>> and there are small differences in our
1:26:08appearance and our height but those are
1:26:10tiny minor compared compared to the
1:26:12overall similarities.
1:26:15How that happens is what I said. It's
1:26:17it's based on the
1:26:20genetic code, the the production of the
1:26:22right proteins. To me, that that will
1:26:25always be the most important piece of
1:26:30evidence that we don't understand
1:26:34everything there is to know.
1:26:36>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:36>> about life and that one good answer is
1:26:40is God. I mean I would say one more
1:26:43thing about this that many people have
1:26:45said even a few atheists that the best
1:26:48evidence for God is the finetuning of
1:26:49the universe
1:26:51>> and
1:26:53and that I agree with that. I think I
1:26:55think that the finetuning of the
1:26:57universe is is it's it's about physics.
1:26:59It's not about biochemistry.
1:27:01But why is it that all the constants are
1:27:03exactly right?
1:27:05>> Yeah. And and you could say, well, it's
1:27:07a multiverse and we're in the one that
1:27:09has it. But there's no evidence for a
1:27:10multiverse. I mean, you you can believe
1:27:13in a multiverse or you can believe in
1:27:15God. I prefer God. God loves me. I don't
1:27:17know about the multiverse.
1:27:18>> Okay.
1:27:18>> So, I prefer to believe in God. They're
1:27:20equally they're equally provable.
1:27:23>> I've heard people say that if there was
1:27:24a multiverse, God would be the God of
1:27:27the multiverse.
1:27:27>> Exactly.
1:27:28>> And you could also say, how did the un
1:27:30how did the multiverse arise? Right.
1:27:31>> Okay. [laughter]
1:27:32So, you know, it it it's not an answer.
1:27:35And but so this fine-tuning argument is
1:27:37incredibly powerful.
1:27:39>> But on the flip side of that, the
1:27:40atheist would say that the best argument
1:27:42against God would be suffering and pain
1:27:45suffering in the world.
1:27:46>> Okay. So I I will give you an answer to
1:27:48that. It's not a great answer because I
1:27:50don't think there is a great answer.
1:27:51Many people have tried.
1:27:52>> Yeah.
1:27:53>> But I'll tell you my own personal
1:27:54answer. I grew up
1:27:58>> believing that evil was the predominant
1:28:03characteristic of the world. suffering
1:28:05was what everybody went through. This is
1:28:08part of the communist line. Everybody's
1:28:10suffering except the bad guys on the
1:28:11top.
1:28:13And I I and and you know the idea of
1:28:16goodness
1:28:18I didn't think it existed.
1:28:20I didn't think I good what people aren't
1:28:23good. They do things to they help you
1:28:26because they want to get they want you
1:28:27to help them or they they you know they
1:28:29give you something because they want
1:28:30something back in return.
1:28:33And then I found out that's not true.
1:28:35There is good.
1:28:37Why is there good? I asked myself. I
1:28:41understand why there's selfishness and,
1:28:44you know, evil and people taking
1:28:45advantage of each other. Yeah, that's
1:28:47evolutionary, you know, principles. You
1:28:49want to survive. You want to reproduce.
1:28:51You steal someone's wife because you
1:28:53want to have kids with her, you know. I
1:28:55mean, yeah, that's natural. That's
1:28:57science. That's all scientifically
1:28:59explainable. What about good? What good
1:29:01is good? Why does why why are people
1:29:04good? Well, okay. So, one answer is
1:29:06yeah, it's it's better for a tribe or a
1:29:10culture or society if people are good to
1:29:11each other.
1:29:12>> Yeah,
1:29:14>> maybe. But that's what I call
1:29:17evolutionary psychology
1:29:19explanations
1:29:21of events. It's not you can't explain.
1:29:27[snorts]
1:29:28This has become very emotional.
1:29:30>> It's okay. You can't explain the firemen
1:29:32who went in to the buildings at 911. I
1:29:35was there.
1:29:36>> You were there somewhere?
1:29:37>> I was in the buildings, but I was in New
1:29:38York. I was very close to the building.
1:29:40>> Oh my gosh.
1:29:42>> You can't explain that that way.
1:29:48You can't explain courage and
1:29:50self-sacrifice.
1:29:55There's something else going on.
1:29:58There's something beyond, you know,
1:30:00self-interest. There's something beyond
1:30:02this evolutionary dynamic that re that,
1:30:05you know, that you have to do the best
1:30:07for yourself as much as you can. I mean,
1:30:10you know, even the communists were using
1:30:12the phrase you have to join together in
1:30:15a mass and overcome the bad the the bad
1:30:18guys, the bosses, the capitalists, and
1:30:20then you'll have a good life.
1:30:24It wasn't about being good. It wasn't
1:30:26about being loving. It was about doing
1:30:28what's best for you. And that's what I
1:30:31believed. And when I discovered that
1:30:33good was real, I was stunned.
1:30:36Why?
1:30:39Why? Why do people do these things? Why
1:30:41do they save other people at risk of
1:30:43their own lives? Why do they why do why
1:30:46do they just give a child a cookie when
1:30:47they don't have to?
1:30:48>> Yeah.
1:30:50>> You know, why do they do anything like
1:30:51this?
1:30:54Uh before I became a Christian, I was
1:30:56walking down the street. I was on the
1:30:58verge, but I wasn't there yet. And it
1:31:00was pouring rain and I had two
1:31:02umbrellas. One for a woman I was with
1:31:05and she was using it and I was using
1:31:06mine. We were walking together and I saw
1:31:09a woman with three kids pushing a
1:31:11stroller. No, no umbrella. And I gave
1:31:12her my umbrella.
1:31:15And the woman said to me, again, the
1:31:16same Christian woman, she said to me,
1:31:18"Why'd you do that?" I said, "Well, she
1:31:19was without an umbrella." And I said,
1:31:21"Yeah, but so [laughter]
1:31:26[gasps] I'm not saying I'm a good
1:31:27person, but I'm saying that anybody
1:31:29would have done that."
1:31:32But why? You know, I gave away something
1:31:35that belonged to me. For what? So that
1:31:37she would be dry for a few minutes.
1:31:40She was not a wealthy woman. She was a
1:31:41poor woman. That was obvious. She had
1:31:43three kids.
1:31:46Why did I do that? Why does anyone do
1:31:47anything nice? And there's no answer to
1:31:50that. So people talk about the problem
1:31:52of evil and it's real and I'm not
1:31:55disputing that and I don't know the
1:31:56answer. But I was fascinated by the
1:31:59problem of good.
1:32:01>> And my answer to that was love.
1:32:04And love is not part of the atheist
1:32:06vocabulary. Oh, I'm not saying atheists
1:32:08don't love, but it's not part of what
1:32:10they worship. And we do. We worship the
1:32:14love of Jesus and the love he showed to
1:32:17all of us. all of his creation.
1:32:20>> Sai, this has been one of the most
1:32:22enriching conversations I have ever had.
1:32:25Not just here on this couch, but in my
1:32:28life. You have truly, and I'm not just
1:32:31whispering sweet nothings. I I promise
1:32:32you, I wish you knew my personality
1:32:34more. I'm a straight shooter. This has
1:32:36been such a blessing to me. You have
1:32:38done an incredible job of explaining
1:32:40just your your testimony from atheism to
1:32:42Christianity. I'm just curious before as
1:32:44we're closing, is there any final words
1:32:46that you'd like to leave with our
1:32:47audience? Um, anything of encouragement
1:32:49that you'd like to say?
1:32:51>> Yes. I I I I I almost always use what
1:32:55something I said before is
1:32:59if you're someone who struggles with the
1:33:02question of science or faith,
1:33:06do what I said. Take a look at the
1:33:08literature. take a look at at people who
1:33:12have written about this and understand
1:33:17that what you're hearing about science
1:33:19and faith being conflict is simply
1:33:23false. And if you understand that, you
1:33:26can love your science. And nobody loves
1:33:28science more than I do. I published a
1:33:31lot of scientific papers and I still do
1:33:33even though I'm retired. And I I love
1:33:36science and I love Jesus Christ. And I
1:33:39am convinced that those two loves are
1:33:42not different.
1:33:44>> So good. Sai, thank you so much for
1:33:47joining us today. I feel like I have
1:33:48taken up so much of your time, but I
1:33:50could talk to you for a very long time.
1:33:52>> Well, I have to say that I get very
1:33:54emotional when I do this. As as you have
1:33:56seen,
1:33:57>> I was not an emotional person until I
1:33:59came to Christ. I don't think I cried
1:34:01ever.
1:34:02>> Do you find that's common amongst
1:34:04atheists?
1:34:05What is is it just having not truly
1:34:08encountered the one who is love? Is is
1:34:10that what it is?
1:34:11>> That's what it is. You you can be
1:34:13emotional as an atheist. You can be you
1:34:15can have all kinds of emotions, but they
1:34:17pale in comparison to the emotions that
1:34:21open up when you start believing
1:34:24in the creative
1:34:26genius of our God and how he made us who
1:34:31we are. Then the emotions are
1:34:34incredible.
1:34:36And you know, I'm not putting it on. I
1:34:38mean, I I've done a couple of interviews
1:34:40where I kind of lost control and I saw
1:34:43people say, "Oh, he's acting." I I I'm
1:34:45not an actor. I'm a terrible actor. Uh I
1:34:48I I feel this so deeply in my soul that
1:34:52sometimes I just have trouble, you know,
1:34:54holding back the emotions.
1:34:55>> I keep trying to close, but I can't. I
1:34:57have another question. I'm sorry. I've
1:34:58seen you share and I've also seen in
1:35:01your comments where atheists will say,
1:35:04"Nah, this guy ain't one of us. He was
1:35:06never one of us." Like, he would never
1:35:08move from atheism to Christianity.
1:35:10There's no way.
1:35:12>> I I never knew the answer to that. And
1:35:14then I was the answer was explained to
1:35:16me by an atheist friend of mine. He's a
1:35:18YouTuber named Paul OA. Uh and he
1:35:22explained it to me. He said, "Most of
1:35:24the atheists you're dealing with came to
1:35:28atheism from Christianity or from faith.
1:35:33You did not." And they think that the
1:35:36way to be an atheist is to have already
1:35:38rejected
1:35:40religion. You never rejected religion
1:35:42because you never had it. And he's
1:35:44right. That's true. And I think that's
1:35:46what they mean because the reality is
1:35:50[laughter]
1:35:51I mean I I I confessing to a sin now I I
1:35:56went into a pizza place where I was
1:35:59approached by a couple of students who
1:36:00were trying to convert me. They were
1:36:02missionary students and I treated them
1:36:05terribly. I was an atheist and I told
1:36:08them I was the devil and they ran out
1:36:10crying and screaming.
1:36:12I mean, I was as atheist as you can be.
1:36:15And it's true that I never rejected
1:36:18religion because I never had it. But
1:36:20that's didn't make me not an atheist.
1:36:24And so I think all those people who
1:36:26walked away from their faith,
1:36:27deconstructed,
1:36:29they can come back. They just need to,
1:36:32you know, make some adjustments. But God
1:36:35is waiting for them. Jesus is there with
1:36:36his hand open. And all he's saying is,
1:36:38"Here's the door. You're welcome. walk
1:36:41in
1:36:42>> Sai so good you
1:36:44>> wow this is a good conversation I I'm so
1:36:47grateful for you spending so much time
1:36:48with us today and I you are so busy and
1:36:51you do all the things even though you're
1:36:52retired you're still very active and you
1:36:54do a lot so just thank you for the time
1:36:56that you spent with us today you have
1:36:57done an incredible job at point us to
1:37:00the evidence of God these books that I
1:37:02have I take notes and I put stickies in
1:37:04them because I have I don't want to like
1:37:05mess up the pages but the works of his
1:37:07hands science and faith and harmony
1:37:09beyond evolution. We're going to make
1:37:11sure that we put uh links to these in
1:37:13our show notes. Also, uh for folks who
1:37:15want to get in contact with you, I know
1:37:16it's sidegart.com, your website, if they
1:37:19want to uh keep up with all things
1:37:21>> comment page, and I answer all comments.
1:37:23>> Okay, great. Um my goodness, I have no
1:37:26words. The evidence that you have
1:37:29revealed to us in science that points to
1:37:32not only our creator, but the one true
1:37:34living God of the Bible was incredible.
1:37:37We believe here on the shift that when
1:37:39you when we see the evidence for God
1:37:41more clearly, everything begins to shift
1:37:44in our lives.
1:37:45>> Yes.
1:37:46>> And you've done that beautifully. Thank
1:37:47you so much for your time.
1:37:48>> Thank you.

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