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WHOOP CEO, Will Ahmed: 50B Hours of Health Data, a 4 Million Member Data Moat, & the FDA Fight — Transcript

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0:00On average, a Whoop member wears Whoop
0:0223.6 hours a day. We have just over 50
0:07billion hours of continuous
0:08physiological data. So, it's one of the
0:10largest health data sets in the world.
0:12>> For a dollar a day, I think this is like
0:13one of the best things you could spend
0:15on your health.
0:15>> You want people to love your product
0:17authentically. LeBron James is now a
0:19global ambassador for Whoop. He was one
0:21of the first 100 people to ever wear it.
0:23>> You're starting to understand things
0:25before the rest of the medical community
0:27is learning them.
0:27>> Through physiological signals, we might
0:30be able to predict that a biomarker is
0:31out of range without actually measuring
0:34the biomarker itself.
0:35>> I'm going all in.
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1:00works together. Go to
1:01creativeplanning.com/allin.
1:03>> I'm going all [music] in.
1:05>> All right, guys. Welcome back to the
1:06All-In interview program. And this is
1:09where guests we want to unpack for an
1:12hour or so, not talk about the news like
1:14we do every Friday. We want to go deep.
1:16And health and technology is one of
1:18those areas that's super interesting to
1:21all the besties, and I was really
1:22excited that my friend Will Ahmed from
1:25Whoop decided he would carve out an hour
1:28for me and the All-In audience. You and
1:31I have spoken I think two or three times
1:33on the OG podcast, This Week in
1:35Startups, that I've been doing for over
1:3715 years there in the journey for Whoop.
1:40But let's start with
1:42just the footprint of Whoop as an
1:44organization now, because I've known you
1:45for yeah, well over 5 years, 6 years of
1:48of this journey.
1:49How many members, ballparkish, how many
1:51people are using the Whoop, and how much
1:53data have you collected?
1:54>> Yeah, so Whoop, we build wearable
1:56technology to improve performance and
2:00health. I've been building this company
2:02now for 14 years. It was founded in in
2:052012. And uh I think like a lot of maybe
2:09overnight success stories, it took a
2:10very long time
2:12to be an overnight success. You know, it
2:14took about 12 years for us to get to a
2:16million members and then another 18
2:19months or so to 2 million, about 6
2:21months to 3 million and and expect to
2:24end the year around 4 million members.
2:26>> 4 million members. And hey, listen, I'll
2:29tell people right out, the service at
2:32first seems expensive because I think
2:35it's like 40 bucks a month, 30 bucks a
2:36month. Am I am I in the approximate
2:38range or what do I spend? 300 a year on
2:39this?
2:40>> Depending on what plan you're on, it's
2:41anywhere from 15 to $30 a month.
2:44>> I'm on the top top plan with the top top
2:45sensor.
2:47But you took a very [snorts] thoughtful
2:49approach to saying we're going to go for
2:50subscriptions and we're going to take
2:52out the cost of the device. So you don't
2:54have this
2:56cost uh losing the device anxiety. So
3:00take me to that decision. And to be
3:01totally honest, for a dollar a day, I
3:03think this is like one of the best
3:04things you could spend on your health or
3:05or even less than a dollar a day. But
3:07take me through that decision as a
3:09business to go with uh
3:1030 bucks a month.
3:11>> Yeah, thank you. It's a unique business
3:13model. And in 2017,
3:16we had launched to consumers. It was a
3:17one-time fee, 500 bucks. At that point
3:20in the company's history,
3:22we had really built Whoop as like a
3:23performance brand. You know, it was
3:25known amongst the best athletes in the
3:27world and and we worked with all these
3:28sports teams. And we said, "Okay, we're
3:30going to go to consumers and uh and
3:33target, you know, an athletic and
3:34fitness enthusiast audience." And over
3:37the course of the next 12 months of
3:38having that product in market, we really
3:40observed two things. The first is that
3:43people who bought Whoop uh would wear it
3:45for a long time. And that's always been
3:48a challenge in the wearables industry
3:49around drop-off rates and engagement.
3:52And fortunately for Whoop, that's been a
3:54strength of our of our product.
3:56Uh but then the other thing we observed
3:58was that not that many people were
3:59buying the product. So we still had a
4:01sales problem. And uh because the
4:04engagement was so high, we asked
4:06ourselves, well, is there a business
4:07model here where the entry price is
4:09lower so people can get introduced to
4:12Whoop, and if they fall in love with the
4:14product, then over time it can be a good
4:16business for Whoop, too. And I think
4:20that immediately created all kinds of of
4:22growth for Whoop back in 2018 and 19,
4:26and we quickly became a recurring
4:27revenue business versus a hardware
4:29business, which of course is more
4:31attractive to investors. And then, you
4:34know, what I underestimated is how much
4:35it changed our DNA, because when you're
4:38a subscription business, you become
4:39really obsessed with uh your existing
4:42members, arguably more so even the new
4:44members. And so, it's all about
4:46innovation cycles and continuing to
4:48rapidly improve the product and obsess
4:51over the member experience.
4:53>> See, this is, I think, a critical
4:54observation for founders uh who might be
4:57watching.
4:58When you're selling widgets, you you
5:00know, you're it's
5:02and what you know, marketing. But once
5:04you get a subscriber, hey, they're your
5:07customer next month and the following
5:08month and the following year. So, you
5:10start obsessing about churn and
5:12engagement, right? The metrics kind of
5:14shift, right?
5:15>> Yeah, totally. You get you get very
5:17focused on
5:18um user engagement, how often people are
5:21are using your product, you get focused
5:23on how effective it is, you know, how
5:26are you actually driving behavior change
5:28and and health improvement. It It
5:30changed our hardware cycles, as well.
5:33So, when you're a hardware business,
5:34you're incentivized to ship new hardware
5:37every 12 months, whether or not it's
5:40actually innovative, because you always
5:41need that next dollar from a hardware
5:44sale. And also, when you're a pure
5:46hardware company, you're you're not
5:48incentivized to be innovating on top of
5:50the existing product, right? Because you
5:52want to convince people to buy the next
5:54thing.
5:55And for us, we're actually with the
5:56opposite incentives. We want to launch
5:58hardware when it's really innovative and
6:00it's a step function better.
6:01And and then we're really focused on
6:03trying to continue to update the the
6:06membership and the subscription. So, you
6:09know, someone who joined, I don't know,
6:1118 months ago may not have known they
6:13were going to have ECG monitoring or
6:15AFib detection or advanced labs, which
6:18is now the blood work uh feature that we
6:20have in the app, or health span, which,
6:22you know, tells you your Whoop age and
6:24is a whole longevity feature, blood
6:26pressure insights, which is a new
6:28capability uh that allows people to to
6:32look at their blood pressure every day.
6:34So, these are all examples of new
6:35features that we've brought to market
6:38with uh hardware that's in market.
6:40>> Yeah. And what that does is you get over
6:44the issue we have with Apple products,
6:47which is like you're taking on, as
6:50Whoop, the [snorts]
6:52responsibility for telling me when to
6:53upgrade and why I should upgrade, but
6:56it's not like some high-pressure thing
6:58like your iPhone cycle, where they're
7:00constantly, [clears throat]
7:02you know, pressuring you to upgrade so
7:03they can make the money on the hardware.
7:05Now, let's talk about the innovation
7:06inside the software. Uh and you know,
7:09I've used everything, Fitbit, which is I
7:10guess Google Health now, Apple Watch.
7:12I've had all of it Oura over many, many
7:15years. And I settled on Whoop. Why did I
7:18settle on Whoop? Well, I thought your
7:20software actually, which was hard for me
7:22to get my head around at first because
7:26you have this recovery score, you have
7:27the sleep score, you have stress,
7:30um but and then there's this journal
7:32feature. It was a little complex for me
7:35uh compared to the other products, but
7:38ultimately uh what I found was it gave
7:40me more value once I committed to the
7:43product. So, what is committing to the
7:45product mean? I think if you put in and
7:48you fill out the journal every day or
7:50just, you know, a couple times a week,
7:52you get much more out of it. So, let me
7:54have you explain what the most important
7:57metrics are here.
8:00Heart rate variability, the recovery
8:02score, high stress sleep, etc. And then
8:06and and then work me into like some of
8:08the the the features around journaling
8:10and why that's important.
8:11>> Yeah, the three main pillars on Whoop
8:13are around uh sleep, recovery, and
8:16strain. And so most people start their
8:19day by looking at how well they slept
8:21last night and that'll be everything
8:23from our sleep score to their sleep
8:25consistency. Do they go to bed and wake
8:27up at the same time? Your hours of
8:30sleep, so how many of those hours were
8:31quality sleep versus the time that you
8:34just spent in bed trying to sleep. Um
8:36how much was restorative? Slow wave
8:38sleep, REM sleep, you know, a pretty
8:39deep understanding uh of your body's
8:42overall uh circadian rhythm and how well
8:45you're sleeping. And then ultimately
8:48your recovery score, which is red,
8:50yellow, green, 0 to 100%. By the way,
8:52I'm I'm pretty pumped about mine today.
8:54I want you to know I'm ready for you.
8:55>> Oh man. Now now Come on, man. Hold on a
8:58second.
8:58>> I I just had to show you that.
9:00>> 93% pretty good. Um
9:02>> strong for me.
9:03>> That's very strong. Uh for me, not so
9:06good. I'm on a 67.
9:08>> Okay, but you got a green dial. Those
9:10are pretty good numbers.
9:11>> my sleep was 83%
9:13and my strain today is incredibly low
9:15cuz all I've done is sit and do no work.
9:19Uh but you know, this is like super
9:22critical for me to have these numbers
9:24now. I travel. I go to Japan. I go to
9:26Saudi. I go to Davos, you know, World
9:29Economic Forum. I I'm all over the globe
9:32and I'm trying to regulate my sleep. I'm
9:34trying to figure out should I be on this
9:36sleep schedule or you know, the other
9:38one and I'm just trying to make sure I'm
9:40fresh for when I'm doing performative
9:42stuff, you know, like on on podcasts or
9:43speaking gigs. Uh and it's essential for
9:46me now. It's just essential for me. I
9:47can't live without it. The thing that
9:49was interesting that happened for me is
9:51you also have uh under those three most
9:55important um metrics there.
9:57>> The health monitor?
9:58>> You have the health monitor. Now, this
10:00is critical for me because
10:03twice now in the past Yeah, I think it's
10:06two or three times now. I have had um
10:10under health monitor, which has your
10:11respiratory rate, your resting heart
10:13rate, skin temperature, blood oxygen,
10:15and HRV, heart rate variability. Right
10:17now, I'm all in green. However,
10:20the other week, I'm going to tell you
10:21this story.
10:23It involves me going to the emergency
10:25room with chest pain.
10:26This is a serious Some people in the
10:28house, the kids or whatever, had a
10:31respiratory infection. I didn't get it.
10:33But I wake up one day and my respiratory
10:36rate is two breaths higher than normal.
10:38Instead of 16, it was like 18 or 15, it
10:40was 17. And then my skin temperature was
10:43like
10:43two degrees hotter, right? And um
10:46>> And just for people listening, when your
10:48respiratory rate is elevated by two
10:51breaths like that, that's actually
10:52pretty meaningful cuz respiratory rate
10:54is normally a very boring statistic and
10:56normally doesn't change at all.
10:58>> So, it's like, "Hey, what's going on?"
11:00Then it does it a second day in a row.
11:01So, then I, you know, like do the warm
11:03bath. I I got me sure I got my
11:05electrolytes. I'm I'm thinking maybe I'm
11:07coming down with something.
11:08Anyway, I recover on Saturday, Sunday.
11:11Sunday night, I can't sleep. I start
11:13getting chest pains.
11:15I put the Tesla at 1:00 a.m. in
11:16self-driving and I go to the emergency
11:18room cuz I used to work on an ambulance.
11:20I know,
11:21hey, you know, when you have chest pains
11:22and you're 55-year-old male, this could
11:25be serious or it could be indigestion. I
11:27go, I do every possible test. I go right
11:29to the heart center uh in Austin here
11:32and they do the CT scan. I think that's
11:34the the the big scan of your heart.
11:36EKGs, everything. I'm there from 1:00
11:39a.m. until 7:00 a.m.
11:41Turns out I had inflammation in my
11:43lungs, around my chest, and my heart was
11:47being constricted. So, I was
11:49experiencing chest pain. I was not
11:50having a heart attack. But there was
11:52something going on and I was alerted to
11:54it two for two days in a row
11:56without having any other symptoms. Very
11:58strange, right?
11:59>> Mhm.
12:00>> And it was the Whoop those two days
12:03earlier, that Thursday, Friday, that on
12:04Sunday I was on high alert. I was like,
12:06"Something's going wrong with my
12:07system." It had done that. And the
12:09reason is three years ago, the same
12:12thing happened. My skin temperature's is
12:13going crazy and my and then in that
12:15case, I think it was my HRV. I'm like,
12:17"What's going on?"
12:18I got COVID.
12:20Yeah. So,
12:22I had two two bad scores. I'm in New
12:25York with one of my daughters and
12:27I was able to take that Paxlovid, which
12:29you can only take if you get to it
12:31early. So, I'm like, "F this." Two days
12:34of like heat, I go my wife goes, "Maybe
12:37you got COVID." I'm like, "Wow, that's
12:38so retro." I go right to Duane Reade, I
12:40take the test, I got it, I get Paxlovid
12:42all in the same day because the Whoop
12:44told me. So, you anticipated two acute
12:46situations for me.
12:48What other acute things are you starting
12:50to learn here now that you have 4
12:52million people in the system?
12:55I understand now you're becoming a
12:56contributor to the preemptive delivery
13:00of medical services and or, you know,
13:02you're you're starting to understand
13:04things before,
13:06let's say, the rest of the medical
13:07community is is learning them.
13:09>> Well, there's your sharing that. I mean,
13:10that's an amazing story and I'm grateful
13:12you're feeling all right and and
13:14grateful that Whoop could uh
13:16could play a small role helping. I think
13:18it's it's amazing we now get these
13:20testimonials every every day, every week
13:22from
13:23uh from members who have an experience
13:25like the one you described.
13:28Uh I got a message last week from
13:31uh you know, a fit, healthy baseball
13:33player who all of a sudden saw he had
13:35these elevated heart rates while he was
13:37sleeping that looked very abnormal. You
13:39know, someone with a resting heart rate
13:40of 50 beats per minute getting a heart
13:43rate of 120, 130 while he's sleeping.
13:46And uh and he goes in uh
13:49to see the doctor and um they do some
13:52tests and sure enough,
13:54uh stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma.
13:56>> Woah.
13:57>> Yeah. And uh and he was able to get
14:00treated for it and he's recovered from
14:02it. And uh and then, you know, another
14:05similar story where uh a member
14:08with their HRV, they'd been on Whoop
14:10actually for I think close to a decade.
14:12So, they had this incredible baseline
14:14and um and HRV for for people who are
14:17less familiar.
14:18>> that because you're the one who
14:20introduced me to this whole concept and
14:22I I have since gone down the rabbit
14:24hole.
14:24>> So, HRV stands for heart rate
14:26variability. It's the amount of um time
14:28between successive beats of the heart
14:31and uh and it's a little
14:33counterintuitive, but the more
14:35variability in time between successive
14:38beats of the heart, the healthier your
14:39overall system is operating. And it's
14:41this lens into your autonomic nervous
14:44system, which consists of sympathetic
14:46and parasympathetic activity. So,
14:48sympathetic's activation, heart rate up,
14:49blood pressure up, respiration up. Um
14:52it's what happens, you know, when you
14:53have a thought like that there's a lion
14:55in the room or you know, when you start
14:57to exercise or you're thinking about
14:58something stressful. Um conversely, uh
15:02parasympathetic's all the opposite,
15:03heart rate down, blood pressure down,
15:05respiration down. Uh it's what helps you
15:07fall asleep. If you um exhale for a long
15:10period of time, that's parasympathetic.
15:13>> Mhm.
15:13>> And what you want is for for sympathetic
15:15activity and parasympathetic activity to
15:17be coupled. And so, your body's kind of
15:19constantly regulating its environment.
15:21And when that's the case, it it means
15:23you have a higher heart rate
15:24variability, that the measurement will
15:26be higher. And we're measuring heart
15:28rate variability 24/7. It was really one
15:31of the the key innovations in founding
15:32the company.
15:34Uh I did all this medical research when
15:36I was a student at Harvard and heart
15:37rate variability was the thing that like
15:39jumped off the page to me cuz there was
15:40really interesting research on it, but
15:43it couldn't be measured 24/7.
15:45And uh and so, that's where um you know,
15:47part of where WHOOP was born out of.
15:50Anyway, heart rate variability is
15:51something that we use for stress
15:53monitoring. It's something we use for
15:54our recovery score. And uh and we
15:57baseline everyone on WHOOP and then
15:59we're able to show you every day, are
16:01you within your baseline or you a little
16:02bit higher, you're a little lower? And
16:04when you look at trends of this over
16:06years, you start to get a sense for is
16:08someone getting healthier over time or
16:10or less healthy? It's a really important
16:13longevity indicator. Uh typically
16:15speaking, as you get older, your heart
16:17rate variability will drop. So,
16:21you know, people who are in their 20s,
16:23their heart rate variability will be
16:25anywhere between like 80 and 100 on
16:27average. 30s, you start to drop to 70.
16:2940s, you start dropping to 50. You know,
16:32um 50s, 60s, all of a sudden you're in,
16:34you know, 30s and below. And so, if you
16:36can fight that trend
16:38uh that those averages and keep your
16:40heart rate variability even just flat
16:42over years, that's actually a sign of
16:44good fitness, good longevity. And uh
16:47anyway, back to the story I was telling
16:49you, the um this individual,
16:52they had a very steady heart rate
16:53variability that was within a specific
16:55range, and all of a sudden it plummeted.
16:57So, it was a healthy person that had a
16:58heart rate variability of about 100. And
17:01uh and then it was 50 all of a sudden
17:03for for a period of time. Again, goes
17:05in, gets all these tests. Uh he turned
17:08out to have testicular cancer.
17:10>> Oh, wow.
17:11>> And so,
17:11>> Now, was that known previously that HRV
17:14would in some way be a a lead indicator
17:17for testicular cancer?
17:19>> I mean, I don't think so. You know, and
17:21that's that's what's so fascinating
17:23about this moment in time is we've never
17:25had this much data on the human body
17:28continuously. One of the principles to
17:30founding WHOOP was 24/7 data. And it's
17:33it's why we have a 14-day battery life
17:36now. It's why we we invented a charger
17:38that you slide on to your WHOOP.
17:39>> I was about to say, these are super
17:41important. And when you first told me
17:43about this on This Week in Startups, I
17:45was like, "What? I need to I want to see
17:46how many steps I've done and the time.
17:48It makes no sense." And you were like,
17:50"Trust me, Jake. I'll
17:51uh there's a reason [laughter] for
17:52this." And now that I've used it, it
17:55turns out you're absolutely right. The
17:57reason I have had so many long streaks,
18:00the only time I really stopped using
18:02this for past couple years is when I
18:03lost it and I had to order a new one.
18:05So, I broke my streak, which was a
18:06bummer, but it is what it is. It's just
18:08a number.
18:09Um
18:10because you can wear it in the shower,
18:12you can wear it in the bath, and you
18:13should. It turns out a warm bath is when
18:15we get your journals in a minute, super
18:17uh great for my recovery for whatever
18:19reason and my sleep. You never have to
18:20take it off and you can slide on the
18:23battery charger. So, you can have
18:27essentially the opposite experience that
18:29I had with my Apple Watch. The Apple
18:31Watch was annoying cuz it's I'm getting
18:33alerts and I'm getting alerts for things
18:35that I app I installed 2 years ago.
18:37And it's just constantly bothering you.
18:39People think you're rude when you look
18:41at the watch.
18:42And then the battery dies every,
18:44you know, whatever. For the Apple Watch,
18:46I think I might have gotten to 24 hours
18:48or 36 hours, 48 hours a couple times,
18:51but it's a terrible experience. With
18:53this, I
18:54I mean, I I've made it 10 days, you
18:56know, 14 days, no problem. And I carry I
18:59bought three battery chargers.
19:02I just keep I keep one in my desk, I
19:03keep one on the bedside, and one in my
19:05my travel bag. It's like these things
19:07aren't expensive.
19:08And that's a key to it, I think, as
19:11well. Yeah, is the
19:13the amount people wear these.
19:15>> On average, a Whoop member wears Whoop
19:1823.6 hours a day.
19:21And as a consequence, we have
19:23just over 50 billion hours of continuous
19:26physiological data. So, it's one of the
19:28largest health data sets in the world.
19:31And now with the, you know, the advent
19:33of AI and what you can do with large
19:35data sets, it's just like a really
19:37exciting time to be working in this
19:39space.
19:40>> Do all the AI companies, like the
19:42frontier models, want to buy this data
19:43from you in aggregate? Is that like
19:46a huge business for you guys eventually?
19:48How do you think about that? Or building
19:49your own models?
19:51>> Yeah, today we're building our own
19:52models, you know, foundational models
19:54with in the company that are essentially
19:57training on top of this data. So, one
19:59>> using open source models or you're
20:01you're partnering with
20:02>> our own models, we've got open source
20:04models, and and what's amazing is
20:07you've got this huge physiological data
20:09set, but then you also now have other
20:12data sets, right? So, people are
20:14uploading their blood tests or they're
20:15doing advanced labs through Whoop,
20:17they're uploading medical records.
20:20And Um, so, as an example, we're we're
20:22now starting to see indications that
20:25through physiological signals, we might
20:27be able to predict that a biomarker is
20:29out of range without actually measuring
20:31the biomarker itself.
20:33>> Wow.
20:33>> And so then, you know, you could give
20:35someone a very targeted, "Hey, we think
20:37you're you know, we think you have high
20:39cortisol. You should get this one test."
20:41And and it gets you know, and it gets
20:43super it gets super targeted, which is
20:45exciting.
20:46>> Which the AI would be able to figure
20:47out. The AI is going to look at all this
20:49data and say, "Hey, maybe there's a
20:50cortisol issue here." Or here's the
20:52possibilities, which is super
20:54fascinating. So, not your you see your
20:56business in the future as this AI
20:59assistant. And you added an AI
21:00assistant, I think, to the product less
21:02than 6 months ago. I'm addicted to it
21:04now.
21:04>> Yeah.
21:05>> And you have these ongoing
21:07conversations. It logs the
21:09conversations. And so now it was um I'll
21:13be candid, pretty dumb at the start. It
21:15would be like [laughter] you know, you
21:16could talk to it and you'd be like,
21:17"Yes, you had this rate. Okay, thanks
21:19for that rate." But now it's gotten to
21:20be more sophisticated cuz now when I
21:22tell it, "I'm in Japan.
21:25Uh you didn't record my sleep." It's
21:27like, "Oh, okay. Here's what's
21:29happening." And it actually is
21:30understanding the product.
21:32And I I I guess you're doing some
21:34reinforcement learning.
21:35>> Yeah.
21:36>> And it's got to be that these 4 million
21:38members, including myself, are now
21:40telling it where the product breaks down
21:42because
21:43when you
21:45um
21:45or or where the opportunities are to add
21:47more features, however you want to look
21:48at it. But there's this constant
21:50struggle I was having with changing time
21:52zones. And was my
21:54um
21:55was my sleep getting recorded properly
21:57so then I could get my recovery. And
21:59then I started asking
22:00uh and then it prompted me and said,
22:02"Hey, by the way,
22:05w- when are you leaving for Japan?" Or
22:06whatever. And I was like, "Here's my
22:07flight. This is when I land." And it was
22:10like, "You should sleep at the first
22:11half and then not go to bed when you get
22:13to Japan. Don't have caffeine at this
22:15time." So, somebody in the company, I
22:17think, explicitly started doing a time
22:20zone change. Or did it just learn that
22:23and infer it? What Did you Did you get
22:25specific about that? And how are you
22:26using the AI coach?
22:28>> We spun up a team on travel specifically
22:30because it's such a popular use case for
22:32a lot of our members and you know, our
22:34origins were with athletes, but now
22:36we've got this wide audience of aspiring
22:38people. You know, I'd say that's really
22:40the If you think about who's Whoop
22:41targeting, it's the aspiring. And that
22:44could be a great athlete, that could be
22:45someone who's fit, but it could also
22:47just be someone who wants to have more
22:48energy for their family and their job
22:51and their lives.
22:51>> Yes. That's right.
22:52>> And wants to live longer, right?
22:54>> Yeah, live longer.
22:55>> But the AI uh the AI coach is a big part
22:57of that and it's a big part of our
22:59future and you know, we've been working
23:01on it for years now. I'm glad to to hear
23:03that you feel like it's getting good.
23:05>> Yeah.
23:05>> About 80% of our
23:06>> it's like a seven and a half right now.
23:08Seven and a half out of 10. I think
23:09there's so much potential for it, yeah.
23:11>> As long as it's good enough for you to
23:13be engaging with it, it's just going to
23:14keep getting better with time and we're
23:17getting better at that, too. And
23:19and so
23:22you know, one thing that's really
23:23interesting, again back to these data
23:25sets, some physiological data we talked
23:27about, that's from the sensor. Then
23:29you've got the advanced labs and the
23:31blood testing, you've got the medical
23:32records coming in. But actually this is
23:35this is another very important piece of
23:37data, which is all sorts of user
23:39feedback, right? Like the journal
23:42itself. So about just over 50% of our
23:45members journal every day.
23:47>> This is a good point to explain what the
23:49journal is.
23:50>> Yeah.
23:50>> I'm sorry that I keep explaining your
23:52features, but I'm so passionate about
23:53the product as you can hear.
23:55>> No, you're doing great. [laughter] So
23:57the
23:58the Whoop journal is essentially a
24:00hundred plus different behaviors,
24:02lifestyle decisions,
24:05you know, supplements, drugs, you name
24:06it, that someone might want to log. So
24:09popular things that people log every day
24:11are like, did I drink alcohol last
24:12night? Was I hydrated? Did I travel? Uh
24:15you know, did I meditate? Was I happy?
24:17Was I sad? You know, was I stressed? Uh
24:20and and all of this anecdotal
24:23information also builds on uh on these
24:27data sets where you know, if you wanted
24:29to come up with an algorithm for
24:31predicting whether someone would be
24:32happy, you would actually need a fair
24:34amount of data from someone on uh you
24:37know, on their overall mood as an
24:39example. Uh so, anyway, we're excited
24:41about bringing all these different types
24:43of data sets together and it's one thing
24:45that we feel uniquely positioned to do
24:47because not that many companies
24:49um you know, have people opening their
24:51app eight times a day and 80% of their
24:55member base interacting with the AI.
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25:35>> The journal was a major unlock for me.
25:38Here's from a user perspective since
25:40we're doing a whole like user uh session
25:42here. What's really interesting about it
25:44is you get these behavioral insights and
25:46I think you get into a behavioral
25:48insight when you've used it 10 times,
25:50five yeses, five nos.
25:51>> Right.
25:52>> As an example, if you're doing creatine,
25:54somebody's paying attention
25:56>> at Whoop and uh I guess you got a lot of
25:57How many people working there now?
26:00>> 1,200.
26:01>> 1,200. Whoa. That's That's growing
26:03significantly.
26:04>> Yeah, we grew.
26:05>> Yeah. Wow. So, when you pull up your
26:08your behavioral insights and in the
26:09morning it will ask you and prompt you
26:11cuz in the morning's when everybody
26:12opens this to check their sleep score,
26:13recovery, it prompts you. You can start
26:15to figure out after this five and five
26:20what impact that behavior has on
26:23recovery.
26:24So, it turns out for a warm bath
26:28uh which was never my thing. I hate
26:30baths. Not my thing. Like I'm a guy like
26:32going in a bath, hanging out in a bath.
26:33I have no interest. I'm like I'm like a
26:35guy from Brooklyn like
26:37kind of feels weird to be in a bath with
26:39the candles.
26:39>> Any salts in the bath? Are you adding
26:41fragrance?
26:42>> add the Yes, you got me. I'm adding
26:44salts to the bath. Yes, and that's now
26:46also tracked.
26:47>> It helps.
26:48>> It helps. Warm bath
26:50plus 7%
26:52>> Wow.
26:53>> on my recovery. Have you ever heard of
26:55something like that?
26:56>> That's very high as a as a response. So,
26:59you know, for folks who are who are
27:00trying to figure out what we're talking
27:01about, essentially when you log these
27:03things, Whoop will then will tell you
27:04what's positively or negatively
27:06affecting your recovery score. So, a big
27:08wake-up call for a lot of people ends up
27:10being alcohol because it'll show you
27:12that alcohol has this like hugely
27:14negative effect
27:15>> disastrous
27:16>> on your recovery.
27:17>> It's poison. I don't drink, so I never
27:19even log it, but I'm You have a couple
27:21of beverages now and again, Will?
27:23And then what impact does it have on
27:24your super score?
27:27>> with alcohol. Although it's got a -9%
27:30for me. So, I'm now looking at I'm now
27:32looking at my behavior insights. Here's
27:34a sneaky one for everyone.
27:35>> Have Have Wait, have you considered
27:36having that drink while you're in the
27:37warm bath?
27:38>> Yeah, right.
27:39>> Maybe you have a drink.
27:40>> Maybe I should start adding more baths,
27:42but I do I do steam room, I do cold
27:44plunge.
27:45>> Oh, yeah. How's that working out?
27:47>> Those are more neutral, but I like the
27:48way they make me feel. And there's a lot
27:50of longevity research on saunaing and
27:53contrast therapy. So,
27:56second to alcohol for being the most
27:58negative for me is a late meal.
28:01So,
28:02>> Yes.
28:02>> eating within 3 hours of bedtime, we've
28:05now seen across the entire Whoop
28:06population is really detrimental to your
28:09sleep and your recovery. And it's
28:11because your body's still digesting for
28:13those first few hours that you're in
28:14bed.
28:16And as a consequence, you're not getting
28:17quality sleep.
28:19>> So, you get high stress during the
28:20sleep, I would assume, yeah? The high
28:22that whole high stress thing. Here's
28:23mine. For some reason, vitamin D, -3. I
28:27don't know if that's accurate or not,
28:28but I was putting a little vitamin D in,
28:30maybe that's a false positive.
28:31>> It could be that the days you took it
28:33were days that you were traveling or you
28:36know there could be something else going
28:38on. There's some yeah there's a
28:39correlation here that we're not seeing
28:40yet.
28:41>> By the way you can ask you can ask Whoop
28:43that. You can say that's a great idea.
28:45I'm seeing vitamin D minus three does
28:47that make sense? What could be going on?
28:50And maybe it'll it'll look at your
28:51travel alongside that. Okay this is a
28:54modest difference.
28:56And it's a correlation not evidence that
28:58vitamin D caused the change. Your recent
29:00recovery has ranged 27% to 87% but you
29:03haven't logged vitamin D in the 14 day
29:04stretch so there's no recent comp sorry
29:06you're given your thoughtful cross path
29:08you know okay. So I got a little more
29:09work to do on that one. But plus five
29:11strain is minus five on recovery that
29:14makes total sense.
29:15>> Yeah so when you work out your body
29:17needs to recover.
29:18>> Plus 1% of the day in high stress
29:21zone minus 9% on recovery. So you know
29:26through my temp
29:28the stress score comes from what?
29:30Temperature heart rate HRV?
29:32>> Primarily HRV but it's also using other
29:35sensing.
29:35>> Got it. So and that's kind of your is
29:38that your special sauce there
29:38proprietaryness in the in that
29:41the stress score?
29:42>> The stress score itself is something
29:44that we invented. Of course we based it
29:46on physiological research. And I would
29:48say that's one of the hard things about
29:50this space which is how do you take
29:53medical research that's credible
29:55and then a lot of data because you're
29:58going to be dating getting data from
29:59consumers and then great design right?
30:02Because at the end of the day you have
30:03to design something to ultimately have a
30:05score that people want to look at.
30:08>> Mhm.
30:08>> And and so there's a lot of science to
30:11it but there's also art to it. And I
30:12think it's I think it's something Whoop
30:14has been very good at. You know the
30:15recovery score and
30:17our now our health span score is is the
30:20most screenshotted page in the app.
30:22>> Makes total sense yeah when you share
30:23that.
30:24Consistent bedtime plus four caffeine
30:26plus four creatine plus four
30:29morning sunlight plus three. So now that
30:31I have this I I also do some meditation
30:34with the Calm app and with Waking Up or
30:37on my own, that also I don't have enough
30:39data in there yet cuz I keep forgetting
30:40to log it, but you it does log my
30:43skiing. So, I use slopes.
30:45>> Yeah.
30:46>> And so, slope you're a skier, Will, or
30:48no?
30:49>> I ski, but not it sounds I'm not using
30:51an app for skiing. So, my sense is you
30:53ski more than I do.
30:54>> I mean, I try to get to 30, 40 days a
30:56year.
30:57But, 2 hours a day. So, it's like
30:59executive skiing,
31:00CEO skiing, if you catch my drift. Do a
31:02podcast before
31:03>> And you're doing it in Japan.
31:06>> I do 5, 10 days in Japan is the goal.
31:09The rest are at my ski house in
31:11>> That's elite skiing.
31:12>> Yes, yes. So, you can come with me and
31:14Tucker Carlson if you're into it. It's a
31:16really weird trip.
31:16>> Great. Great.
31:17>> The other nice thing is it pulls in my
31:20slopes data and puts it as an activity.
31:22So, you have an activity tracker. And
31:25the activity tracker is really great.
31:26You get to, you know, I do these long
31:28walks in Japan or when I'm in New York,
31:30I love to do long walks. My age, long
31:32walks and rocking and farmers walks are
31:35like the key to longevity, I'm told. And
31:38the great thing is now it knows that and
31:40it's making a training program for me
31:42around that and it asked me the AI,
31:45"What's my goal?" I said, "My goal is to
31:47not get injured and ski better." And
31:50these are the exercises I know are going
31:52to help. It's now the AI understands my
31:56goals,
31:57kind of coaching me and setting up
31:58plans, and then
32:00lo and behold, one of the things I I
32:03think I had asked you for maybe on DM
32:05somewhere on Twitter or something. You
32:06know, I take a GLP. So, I started
32:08tracking it. I take a light GLP, lost 43
32:11lbs on my
32:13Whoop.
32:13>> That's awesome.
32:14>> Oh, well, yeah. And I mean, let me tell
32:16you, that makes a difference. When
32:17you're 213, you get to 170, skiing,
32:19sleeping, everything. I wish I had
32:20Whooped during that journey.
32:22>> Did your resting heart rate go down a
32:23lot?
32:24>> Yeah, I wasn't fully on Whoop for the
32:25majority of that. So, that would have
32:27been so cool to have. You know what?
32:28I'll gain the 40 lbs back and then lose
32:29it.
32:30But, now I'm on a maintenance dose and
32:32you just released a GLP tracker that has
32:35in it
32:36all the cohorts of things you want to
32:38make sure you're doing when you're
32:39taking GLP, including protein
32:41consumption. So maybe you could talk a
32:43little bit about that and how GLPs are
32:46kind of making their way into the uh the
32:49ecosystem here.
32:50>> Well, in general, you know, I think in
32:52line with this theme of we want to have
32:54a lot of data under the WHOOP umbrella
32:56so that we can actually give you the
32:57right insights. If you're taking a
32:59GLP-1, that's a pretty meaningful, you
33:02know, shift to what's going to happen
33:03for your body. And one of the challenges
33:05with GLP-1s is that typically speaking
33:09about 50% of the weight that someone
33:11loses is fat and 50% is muscle.
33:15And, [clears throat]
33:15you know, so that's how sometimes people
33:17can end up getting quite frail even
33:19though they've lost a considerable
33:20amount of weight. And and so it's good
33:23for WHOOP to know that you're on a GLP-1
33:25and then in turn, it's really going to
33:26push you to to get some activity and
33:29hopefully a little bit of strength
33:30training even if it's just body weight
33:32in so that you don't end up losing that
33:35muscle. And I think that's also where
33:37the the appropriate diet with protein
33:39and, you know, we've heard some
33:41anecdotal success around people taking
33:43creatine while they're on GLP-1s. Uh I
33:46think is is super important. And, you
33:48know, just to say like we have all this
33:50data and and
33:52uh and we take it very seriously and we
33:54want it to be secure and private. We've
33:57actually gone through the uh oh, here we
33:59go.
34:00>> Yeah, I'm just I you know, I mirrored my
34:01phone. Here's my actual WHOOP. You can
34:03see my resting heart rate and all that,
34:05but I added my GLP there. Um and it
34:07said, you know, you got to get to 9,800
34:09steps now. You got to do two strength
34:11activities a week, hydration 7 days a
34:13week, protein.
34:14And then uh just check off that you took
34:16your GLP and it took me through a little
34:18script
34:19to say um
34:22you know, how often do you take it, etc.
34:24>> And there would have been a process
34:25here, I imagine, where the AI was asking
34:28you about some of this and you
34:29ultimately confirmed you wanted to do
34:30these things and have a plan, right?
34:33>> Yeah, absolutely. Um and I'm at 300 days
34:36on my streak here.
34:37>> But see, the other thing you added, um
34:39you added uh I guess badges a little bit
34:41more kind of like Peloton has like
34:43insane number of badges and so you get
34:45to see where you're at and like I am a
34:48rocking machine on my
34:51I'm in the top 1% of people doing rock
34:53rocking and farmer so that's like a
34:55little competitive thing.
34:56>> Yeah, there you go. You got to maintain
34:58that now. You got to keep rocking every
34:59day.
35:00>> Okay, so let's let's talk about you and
35:03your relationship with the FDA little
35:05controversy here. It's been covered over
35:08and over again. All these devices I
35:10guess
35:11are not under medical devices and maybe
35:15you could explain to us how this FDA
35:18looks at you versus other device medical
35:21devices and how that's changed over time
35:24but
35:25you have blood pressure insights BPI
35:28and you launch it the FDA was a little
35:30bit like hey
35:33we're not happy here
35:35and then you have the ECG heart
35:37screening stuff and
35:41all of these devices whether it's my
35:42Apple Watch
35:43>> cleared.
35:44>> And that's medically cleared so and when
35:46you do that these things
35:48you always get this disclaimer hey
35:50listen we're not
35:51in the heart attack business so when I
35:53had those things it's up to me to
35:55interpret that or a doctor but talk to
35:57me about the tension
35:59and [snorts] how it's been going across
36:00the two administrations cuz now you've
36:02lived through
36:04you know
36:05Trump go go rah rah President Trump is
36:07like
36:08all in on disrupting
36:11and he and he put a Kennedy in there to
36:13do that and and he's a bit of a
36:15disruptor himself and he's very pro
36:16business
36:18and then Biden obviously maybe a little
36:20more regulation less pro business
36:23definitively less pro business but I
36:24don't know in the medical space how that
36:26happened so talk to me it's not a
36:27politics show but you you're all running
36:29into regulation now.
36:31>> Well just to say like it's been a
36:33certainly a long process for Whoop and
36:34working with the FDA and we've worked
36:36with them in a lot of different contexts
36:39which I'll talk about here in a second
36:40and you know the history of very
36:42innovative technology with, you know,
36:45somewhat dated regulatory policies is a
36:48history that has controversy from time
36:50to time. So, I'm not surprised that
36:51we've had some challenges or
36:53disagreements along the way, but I'm
36:55actually really happy with with our
36:57relationship with the FDA today. Now, 4
37:00years ago
37:02I really wanted to be able to do blood
37:04pressure monitoring. And historically,
37:06you needed a cuff for that, and it was
37:08really a pretty difficult signal
37:10processing problem. There was no product
37:12on the market that could measure blood
37:14pressure accurately from the wrist. And
37:16so, we set out to see if we could do it.
37:19And one of the ways that we collected a
37:21huge data set on it
37:23was in collaboration with our members,
37:25where we asked members if they wanted to
37:28participate in a stress, sleep, and
37:31blood pressure study. And as part of
37:35that, we actually had 70,000 people
37:37enroll. So, think about, you know, the
37:39ability to generate studies at at a huge
37:41scale fast.
37:43And and so, people were actually
37:46uploading their blood pressure readings
37:48every single day for a number of weeks.
37:51And what that allowed us to do was to
37:53build out a pretty powerful data set on
37:56on blood pressure monitoring, and also
37:59to be able to train that alongside all
38:00of the physiological data that we were
38:02already collecting.
38:04Anyway, fast forward, we get to a period
38:06where all of a sudden we've got a very
38:08powerful algorithm
38:10for measuring blood pressure, and that's
38:11one of the things that we do, I think,
38:13very well at Whoop is, you know, we pick
38:15a hard physiological signal, and then we
38:17say we want to be able to measure it as
38:18accurately or within a similar accuracy
38:20as a medical device,
38:22and then we look to bring that to
38:23consumers. And there was controversy
38:26around blood pressure monitoring before
38:28we launched, because prior to launching
38:30it historically, blood pressure had been
38:34under the category of physiological
38:36signals that needed to be a {quote}
38:39medical device.
38:41And just as some, you know, background
38:43for for our listeners, the FDA is really
38:46supposed to evaluate uh
38:49products that have a medical diagnosis.
38:52And and then if you're not providing a
38:55medical diagnosis, then it falls under a
38:57category called wellness.
38:59And
39:01and there's like a pretty good, you
39:02know, history for this with with heart
39:04monitoring, for example, where if you do
39:07heart rate monitoring for exercise,
39:09that's wellness. If you do heart rate
39:11monitoring for sleep, that's wellness.
39:13If you do heart rate monitoring
39:15for
39:17you know, AFib detection or heart attack
39:20prediction, okay, that needs to be
39:21regulated. So the FDA in the past had a
39:24pretty clear distinction for heart rate.
39:26This is wellness, this is medical,
39:29right? With blood pressure, they said
39:31that if you're measuring blood pressure,
39:33it has to be medical. But the problem
39:36with that is there's an avalanche of
39:38research that supports that, not
39:40surprisingly, blood pressure affects
39:42your stress, it affects your sleep, it
39:44affects your overall well-being.
39:46And we felt like there was a pretty
39:48clear lane for us to introduce a blood
39:50pressure feature that was a wellness
39:52feature. And so we launched the feature,
39:55the FDA
39:57you know, came back and said that they
39:58felt like it needed to be regulated.
40:01>> [snorts]
40:01>> They actually sent us a warning letter.
40:02There was a big disagreement that played
40:04out that was quite public about it. But
40:07we you know, we stuck to our guns and
40:09and I ultimately really believe in in
40:13the way that we approached it. And
40:15through a long process,
40:17the FDA actually has since updated their
40:20guidelines. I think based on our case,
40:23but also based on feedback from the
40:24industry.
40:26That supports that blood pressure can
40:29also have wellness applications. And and
40:32so you know, our blood pressure insights
40:34feature is still available for
40:36consumers. And just to say it, we have
40:40we have these conversations with the FDA
40:41across a lot of different categories. We
40:44also has medical clearances from the
40:46FDA. So our ECG feature where you can
40:50literally do an ECG from your wrist by
40:52just putting your fingers on the Whoop,
40:55um that's an FDA-cleared product, 510k.
40:58And so, uh in some cases we're at we're
41:01going through a process of clinical
41:03trials to get FDA approval. In other
41:05cases, we want to bring a product to
41:07market faster, uh and we also believe
41:10it's a wellness application. And so, uh
41:12that's kind of a healthy, I think, uh
41:15process for innovative companies like
41:18Whoop to be uh pursuing with the FDA.
41:20>> Why don't you guys uh I know you guys
41:22have some sort of integration with this
41:23Omron blood pressure cuff? I I saw like
41:26I was like looking it up.
41:28Why don't you guys just make your own
41:29blood pressure cuff? Or what you know,
41:31let's say we're at a $10 billion
41:32valuation here. We got 4 million
41:34members, 250 on average a year, let's
41:37say, or got a billion in revenue. Like,
41:40let's just buy this company Omron, or
41:42let's get in the blood pressure cuff
41:43business, and let's get in the scale
41:45business while we're at it. Like, I
41:46trust the brand. I just want the Whoop
41:48scale. I want you to be the person who
41:51puts the features in. I want you to
41:53control it. I want it to work. I don't
41:54want to have to go through Apple Health
41:56in the back door to get my Fitbit scale
42:00uploaded. And I I just want I want a
42:02Whoop-branded blood pressure cuff and a
42:04Whoop-branded scale.
42:06>> Well, I appreciate you saying that. I
42:07mean, in a lot of categories we are
42:08debating, do we want to build this
42:10ourselves, do we want to partner with
42:11someone, or are we going to make an
42:13acquisition? And uh and often we've
42:16defaulted to either building or
42:17acquiring versus partnering. In the case
42:20of
42:21um blood pressure cuffs, we felt like
42:23that was a fairly commoditized
42:24technology,
42:26uh and there is, you know, medical uh
42:29efficacy there. So, you know, if people
42:31want to do a calibration with a cuff to
42:33set up their Whoop, which will then
42:35measure it without the cuff, cuz at the
42:37end of the day we kind of want to
42:38replace the cuff,
42:39uh
42:40that, you know, that feels like a a
42:42fairly healthy system. And uh
42:45and it's also worth saying that we we
42:47feel like we've earned the right to um
42:49accumulate all this data cuz we have
42:51very strong data policies. So, we do not
42:53sell data. You know, you are not the
42:55product, Jason. Like, you're the
42:58membership is the product. And
43:00>> And that's a huge, I think, distinction
43:02in this space, especially when you have,
43:04you know, big technology company.
43:07>> yeah, let's just call it what it is. You
43:08may not want to say it, but I can.
43:09They're They're They make their money
43:11advertising and uh Apple Apple's pretty
43:14good steward of data. I'll give them
43:15that, but uh
43:17you know, they make it on really
43:18expensive hardware. So, you are unique
43:19in both cases uh in terms of business
43:21model. You're in our corner, which I
43:23love. Yeah. Apple's going to make a
43:25competitor, huh? They know their watch
43:26kind of sucks and their software sucks.
43:30Like, Apple Health is terrible.
43:32>> The Apple Watch is the most successful
43:34smart watch in the world. And so, I
43:36think
43:37in terms of the category that they built
43:39to own, I think they um I think they've
43:42been successful. I think it's an
43:43important product for them. It's a It's
43:46a product that does a lot of things. And
43:48so, if you want text messages and emails
43:51and to be able to call
43:52>> But, they're going to make Are you
43:54worried to keep you up at night that
43:55they're going to make a Whoop
43:56competitor?
43:58>> Well, I have enormous respect for Apple.
43:59I think they're one of the the best in
44:01the world at hardware and software. I
44:03think a lot of companies have entered
44:05our space and had challenges with with
44:07the screenless wearable or other
44:09wearable products. You know, it's
44:10interesting, 10 years ago,
44:12there were more competitive products in
44:13the market than there are today.
44:15>> That's true, actually. Yeah, you had a
44:17lot of people trying this.
44:18>> People forget the whole Jawbone kind of
44:20Fitbit era. There was a whole
44:23>> Oh my god, yes.
44:23>> class of Nike and Adidas and Under
44:26Armour
44:26>> Yeah, what And how dumb was it for Nike
44:29to stop pursuing that? My god, that was
44:31such an obvious smart thing for them to
44:33do. They had a good start, and then they
44:34gave the business to Fitbit, I believe,
44:36and then they just got out of it. All
44:37right, listen. It's time for lightning
44:38round.
44:39>> Oh, wow.
44:40>> round. Lightning round with Will.
44:42>> Yeah.
44:42>> You got to be honest here. Here we go.
44:44Bryan Johnson or Andrew Huberman? Pick
44:46one.
44:47>> For podcasting, Huberman.
44:49>> Who's making a bigger contribution to uh
44:51the the science and technology?
44:53>> I think Huberman has a a wider audience.
44:57I think Brian has pushed people's
44:59imagination of what they should be
45:01measuring, and I think both of those are
45:02really helpful.
45:03>> Cold plunge, cold shower. Cold plunge,
45:06cold shower. Make a difference?
45:08>> I'll say cold shower because it's very
45:10accessible.
45:11>> Okay.
45:11>> And it's something that people can do
45:13every day. And you do it for even 30
45:15seconds, 60 seconds, you're just going
45:17to feel a lot better.
45:18>> Yeah, wakes you up. Red light therapy or
45:20just the classic hot sauna?
45:22>> I like the hot sauna.
45:24>> Old school.
45:24>> Yes. It gets hotter. I think the red
45:26light thing is just marketing nonsense.
45:29>> Yeah.
45:30>> Yeah. Uh okay.
45:32Zone two cardio.
45:34This is for our age. I think you're 40
45:36now, Will. Are you 40 yet?
45:37>> 37.
45:38>> 37, all right. So, I'll round you up to
45:4040. I'm I'll round myself down to 50.
45:42Zone two cardio or lifting? What What do
45:45you think? If you have If you got to
45:46pick one for my age and for your age.
45:47>> I think this depends a lot on what
45:49someone's goals are, but in general, I
45:52think that everyone should be lifting
45:54more weights and probably doing, you
45:57know, if they have an hour to exercise,
45:59they should spend more time lifting and
46:01less time on an elliptical.
46:03>> Love it.
46:03>> Because people Yeah, because your your
46:05muscle mass is such an important uh test
46:08for longevity.
46:09>> The alarm in Whoop is quite
46:11sophisticated, Will. You can wake up
46:13based on recovery, sleep score. So, the
46:16recovery score, the sleep score, or with
46:18a with a hard,
46:20you know, 6:00 a.m.
46:22Should you go recovery,
46:25sleep score, or with a hard alarm so you
46:28get your sleep consistency? Which one?
46:30Pick one of the three.
46:31>> If you're on vacation, you can go with
46:33recovery or sleep, but if you're trying
46:35to run a tech company, you better pick
46:37an exact time.
46:38>> Okay.
46:39All right.
46:40Coffee first thing in the morning,
46:43wait 90 minutes. Which one? Wait 90
46:45minutes for your coffee or just drink
46:46the damn coffee and live your life?
46:48>> I personally drink the coffee.
46:50>> Yeah, let's go. All right. Strain score,
46:54sleep score, recovery score. Which one
46:57do you obsess over most? Of the Of the
47:00big three, which one do you obsess over?
47:03You can't say you're you're they're all
47:04your children, you love them all
47:05equally.
47:06>> Recovery. I mean, I wake up every
47:08morning waiting to see that that color
47:11of that dial.
47:12>> Wow, I love it. All right, listen.
47:14There's your hour with Will from Whoop.
47:16Great product. I give it my highest
47:19endorsement. Eight Sleep, I'm an
47:20investor in. I love that product, too.
47:22Those are my two favorite health uh
47:25products. And uh hey, at the time of uh
47:27this recording, you have a little
47:28announcement
47:30about the king. No, not President Trump.
47:33>> [laughter]
47:34>> I got you. Not King Trump, but LeBron
47:37James uh now playing for the
47:39Philadelphia 76ers. Uh big announcement,
47:41yeah?
47:42>> Well, we're we're announcing today
47:43LeBron James is uh now a global
47:45ambassador for Whoop. So, uh he's been
47:49on Whoop, interestingly, for 11 years.
47:51>> Wow.
47:52>> And uh we never had any formal
47:54relationship with him. We loved that he
47:55wore the product. Frankly, it was it was
47:58really important in the early days that
47:59he did wear the product cuz he was one
48:01of the first 100 people to ever wear it.
48:03And so, it was incredibly validating
48:05that this incredible athlete was willing
48:08to try a technology from an unknown
48:10company called Whoop. And uh and it gave
48:13us a lot of hope that we were onto
48:14something, but it's been an
48:16extraordinary to see his career uh over
48:18two decades plus, and he's the uh he's
48:22really the the pinnacle of performance
48:24and and like longevity. And uh and so,
48:27he joins a roster of ambassadors like
48:30Cristiano Ronaldo and
48:32uh Patrick Mahomes and uh Lewis Hamilton
48:35and Aryna Sabalenka and Nelly Korda and
48:38so on. So, it's a great group.
48:40>> Now, you had a philosophy though early
48:42on. We talked about this in our previous
48:43discussions that like, hey, you're not
48:46going to pay uh athletes to
48:49uh wear it, you know, and you're not
48:50going to beg them to wear it cuz they're
48:51the customers. They're They're the ICP,
48:53the ideal customer profile. um is this
48:56like a maybe a change in thinking or is
48:58this like a unique one-of-one case? Hey,
49:00he's been on the product for 11 years
49:01without a formal relationship and
49:03you know, he's in that era now. He's
49:05going to, you know, retire in a couple
49:07of years that hey man, he's probably
49:08going to go into this Kobe, Shaq
49:11post playing era where where he gets in
49:13deep into business. So, what what what's
49:15the thinking here? And how do you think
49:16about athletes writ large?
49:18>> I think in general, if your business is
49:20pre-marketing, so to speak, like you're
49:22not in a stage where you're doing big
49:25television advertisements and so on and
49:27so forth, you should be really careful
49:29paying anyone to use your product. You
49:31know, you want people to love your
49:32product authentically. And in our case,
49:35it just so happened that early on, our
49:36target market was these professional
49:39athletes. And so, we needed them to
49:41organically love the product. And by the
49:44way, because you have to wear it 24/7,
49:47there's no amount of money I'm going to
49:48be able to pay an athlete to wear
49:49something 24/7 if they don't like it.
49:52>> Right.
49:52>> So, on the flip side, it was like, well,
49:54if if it actually works and it's
49:56measuring their sleep and recovery and
49:57they play better, you know, they should
49:59want to pay for it. So, that was our
50:00attitude for a long time. And you know,
50:03we had a number of these
50:05individuals who were best in class of
50:07their sport um and global people uh that
50:13uh wanted to invest in the company
50:14because they loved it so much.
50:16>> Amazing.
50:16>> And from there, we also developed
50:19relationships where we could use their
50:20name, image, and likeness, which has a
50:22value associated with it.
50:24>> Heck, yes.
50:24>> That we recognize uh to be able to do
50:27advertising. And so, you know, they've
50:29been amazing partnerships and uh I'm
50:31very grateful that LeBron James is is
50:34part of uh the Whoop roster.
50:36>> Wait, uh are the players allowed to wear
50:38these during games?
50:40They're not, right?
50:41>> That's something the NBA is still
50:42looking at.
50:43>> Got it. Yeah, cuz they're not allowed to
50:44wear jewelry. They've got to take all
50:45that off cuz of injuries, so but they
50:47could put it cuz you can wear it on your
50:50uh armband. They could embed it in like
50:52a wrap, or so maybe some of them have
50:53snuck it on the court. Who knows?
50:55>> Well, you you probably saw the
50:57Australian Open stuff.
50:58>> No, I didn't. Tell me.
51:00>> Well, in at Australian Open, the tennis
51:02tournament
51:02>> Yeah, I don't watch tennis.
51:03>> a number of players were asked to take
51:05their Whoop off while they were playing.
51:08And uh it was I think in part because
51:11the Australian Open uh didn't know what
51:14they were wearing, but they were just
51:16wearing it, you know, under their
51:18armbands and everything else. And
51:21the ITF, which is the International
51:23Tennis Federation, actually had approved
51:25Whoop to be worn in matches. So, the
51:28Australian Open was kind of out of line.
51:30And then next thing you know, um the
51:32other majors have come forward saying
51:33that wearables can be worn. So, I think
51:36there's this sort of natural evolution
51:37of
51:38>> Yeah.
51:39>> resisting it, safety checks. And by the
51:41way, they're they're right to want to be
51:43restrictive about what can be worn.
51:45>> It's not a I don't I don't think it's a
51:47safety thing if you're wrapping it
51:48around your your armband or something
51:50like that. I'd say it's
51:51>> I mean, obviously I agree.
51:52>> I'll tell you what's going on in the
51:53background. Your your marketing
51:54department's probably getting shaken
51:55down. They're probably like, "Hey, you
51:56know, we'd love to have Whoop involved.
51:59It'd be terrible if something happened
52:01to an athlete wearing
52:031.2 oz, but if you were to put a logo
52:06behind them for $10 million,
52:08well, we might have a different
52:09opinion."
52:10>> You know all the ins and outs.
52:12>> I I it's not my first time at this
52:14rodeo.
52:15>> [laughter]
52:16>> I know the shakedown when I hear it.
52:18>> How how are How are things for you in in
52:21early stage venture? Are you Are you
52:23starting to lead these billion-dollar
52:24seed rounds or you're you're staying
52:26true to the the accelerator model?
52:29>> Uh you know, it's um
52:31nobody wants to do year zero work. So, I
52:34have leaned into that.
52:36>> Right.
52:36>> But then, you know, at the end um we we
52:39have the syndicate and we have 4,000
52:41members of it and we would syndicate our
52:42early-stage seed deals. Hey, if you want
52:44to get involved in this, you know, Jake
52:46House putting in 100K, you might want to
52:47put in 5K.
52:48They kept asking me, "Can you get me
52:49into Zipline? Can you get me into Whoop?
52:52Can you get me into SpaceX, Anthropic,
52:54whatever it is?" So, we started a
52:56late-stage practice that we just started
52:58this year at the syndicate. Thanks for
52:59asking. And um
53:00>> Great.
53:01>> We did We did Zipline. We did Icon
53:02Homes, the 3D-printed homes. These are
53:04all billion-dollar companies, five
53:05billion-dollar companies in vast space.
53:07So, when I know the founder, the CFO
53:09gives its approval, cuz you have to deal
53:11with this, right? People doing
53:12off-the-books transactions in SPVs and
53:15buying out early employees and other,
53:17you know, early investors. You have to
53:18deal with some of this SPV madness.
53:20>> I'll say this, it's complicated when
53:22your business is failing and it's
53:24complicated when your business is
53:25winning. So, it's always complicated.
53:28>> I think just uh my advice to everybody
53:30with these SPVs, off-the-books,
53:31whatever, is just
53:34build a relationship with the CFO of the
53:35company and just get their blessing for
53:38it and let them know what you're doing.
53:39And if they really don't want you to do
53:40it, then you're going to have to accept
53:42that, right? Like it's their company.
53:45Uh I I don't like this idea of going
53:47behind the back of the company and
53:49>> The other thing to be wary of are these
53:51secondary brokers who
53:53they claim they've got shares from
53:55someone at a price.
53:56>> Yes.
53:57>> And they go around saying that, but
53:59they're really just trying to create a
53:59market. And so
54:01>> Happens to me all the time.
54:03>> Yeah.
54:03>> Uh cuz I literally like I'm on the board
54:05of a company that's worth a couple
54:06billion dollars and they come to me and
54:08I say, "Okay, great. Um who who is it
54:10with?" Because I got to I'm on the board
54:11of the company. I got to talk to the CFO
54:13and, you know, I can help coordinate
54:14with you. And then crickets. And I'm
54:16like, "Hmm."
54:18They're fishing. It's always a fishing
54:19expedition. This thing didn't really
54:20exist 10, 15 years ago. Like the only
54:23time I ever saw it was Facebook.
54:25Uh and then Uber. When Masayoshi Son
54:27came in, he uh he was like, "Hey guys, I
54:29need you to sell some of these or I'm
54:30going to invest in Lyft." And we were
54:32like, "Okay." I gave him 10% of my
54:34shares at the time. I was like, "Sure.
54:36I'll take a little 10% off the top just
54:38to keep Masayoshi from investing
54:40>> What a run What a run that business has
54:42had, but congrats.
54:44>> Yeah, and I mean and right now, like
54:45trading uh at a an all-time low PE and
54:49they're surging and they have
54:51Yeah, it's really weird to watch what's
54:52happening. Like the anti-AI trade,
54:54DoorDash, Uber,
54:57Figma, [snorts]
54:58you know, all the a lot of these
54:59companies getting uh taken to the
55:01woodshed a bit. Um and some of them are
55:03just like not impacted by it, but hmm
55:05AI's going to change everything. Lots of
55:07great investment opportunities. We'll
55:09see you all next time on the All-In
55:11interview program. Go get a Whoop. Get
55:13yourself a Whoop. Perfect Christmas
55:15gift.
55:15>> Thank you, Jason.
55:16>> Appreciate you doing it, Will. Love the
55:17product.
55:18>> I'm going all in.
55:26>> [music]
55:34>> I'm going [music] all in.

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