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Whistle Where You Work #14 - A Conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Wigand — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:38welcome back to whistle where you work
0:39where we're with The Insider Dr Jeffrey
0:42wend the man who blew the whistle on the
0:46cigarette industry and changed the face
0:49of America Dr wagan welcome and thanks
0:51for joining us thank you my pleasure uh
0:54tell me where you grew
0:55up grew up in New York City uh I up in a
1:00burrow of the
1:01Bronx went to school in the Bronx uh for
1:05most of my formable years and then
1:09uh started college where'd you do that I
1:13started off at a community college to
1:15begin with um I had a very
1:19low draft
1:22number and after a year in college I
1:25decid I was actually pursuing a medical
1:27career I wanted going to medicine and
1:29and at the same time I also worked in
1:31the operating room of local vasel
1:34Brothers Hospital so I I mean I kind of
1:36knew where I wanted to go my number was
1:39under
1:40100 mine too and I was somewhat
1:43concerned that I was going to get pulled
1:44into the
1:45army and I knew if I
1:49pre-qualified that I could
1:51get a into the Air Force and be I could
1:54get into the medical so I got I was a
1:58paramedic I ran a base Hospital
2:00for the flight surgeon's office uh
2:03overseas in Japan and
2:06did some tours through uh southeast Asia
2:10how's that all right and when you got
2:12out of the military service you went to
2:14work for several uh major pharmaceutical
2:17companies no actually I got out got out
2:20of the service and I went back to school
2:23mhm uh with the intent of becoming an
2:26orthopedic surgeon that's exactly what I
2:28wanted to do I finished I became an NSF
2:32fellow National Science Foundation I'm
2:35sorry National Science Foundation fellow
2:37in chemistry which allowed me to do
2:40research as an undergraduate and so I
2:42actually do a thesis so as an an honors
2:44program in chemistry which also gave me
2:48money uh I shouldn't say I me but it
2:51gave me some tremendous experience um I
2:55then went over
2:56to the school of medicine and biomedical
2:59science
3:00and where is this this is I'm sorry oh
3:02this is at univ State University of New
3:04York and buffalo at that time it was
3:06called University of Buffalo so it kind
3:09of transitioned at that while I was
3:12there mhm
3:13um and I did my first research on
3:17vitamin
3:18B12 and then I somewhat got into a mdphd
3:25program
3:27and got really
3:30interested in the whole area
3:32endocrinology and um there were people
3:36that were working both at Roswell Park
3:38and a children's
3:39hospital and I just sort of got hooked
3:42into it really found that medicine kind
3:46of really was memory work where this was
3:50actually Discovery work and it really
3:53attracted me and I pursued it and so I
3:57got my Master's in Biochemistry from
4:00them in actually vitamin B12 and then I
4:03got my doctorate in endocrinology and
4:06biochemistry from the school of
4:09medicine and then I went on did a two
4:12fellowships and then I went to work
4:15because now I had to
4:16pay the debt a lot of bills a lot of
4:19bills so I actually is at The kolinska
4:22Institute in Sweden and I was presenting
4:25a paper at at an international Congress
4:28of endocrinology
4:30and a Gentleman asked me a question in
4:34very broken English but very German and
4:38I answered in German and he asked me
4:41afterwards would I have a cup of coffee
4:43with him and by the time I left having
4:46the cup of coffee I had my first job at
4:4822
4:49$22,500 and it was like I died and went
4:53to heaven and and who was this for this
4:55was for a German company called buring
4:57and Manheim and it was located in
5:00Manheim and in tosing and it was setting
5:03up satellite offices at 219 East 43rd
5:08Street in New York City okay and and is
5:10it right that after there you did spend
5:13some time at Johnson and Johnson and
5:14fizer I I spent some time after that I
5:16was I was recruited from there uh to
5:20fiser in corporate development and then
5:23I was recruited by a union carai to go
5:25oversiz and start up a subsidiary in
5:27Japan which I always spoke Japanese
5:30which was good then I came back work for
5:33J&J and then I went to Merc and
5:36then Brandon Williamson Brandon
5:38Williamson now Brandon Williamson is a
5:41Louisville based Tobacco Company a
5:43subsidiary of a British concern bat yeah
5:48it's a complicated structure and it's
5:50mainly constructed for legal reses uh
5:53the parent parent company today I think
5:57because they keep on changing names is
6:00British American Tobacco
6:03PLC British American Tobacco
6:06PLC what hell ownership in what they
6:09call badis British American Tobacco us
6:14which own sax with
6:16aenue uh Ivy uh Marshall
6:20Fields Brown Williamson tobacco and a
6:23host of other companies but it was the
6:25holding company and they were the
6:27essentially the the management sort sort
6:30of a management company for Brandon
6:32Williamson and Brandon Williamson was
6:34headquartered in Louisville Kentucky
6:36even though there was
6:38a management structure in place for
6:41reporting essentially BMW reported
6:44directly to the chairman of the board of
6:46bat Industries or B bat PLC and what did
6:51you do at BR
6:52Williams I was hired uh specifically as
6:57the head of research and development
6:58Environmental
7:00uh and to actually use my medical
7:04background to
7:06address a product they newly knew was
7:09addictive and when used as intended
7:12killed and then so that was number one
7:15which was really a very large
7:17hook uh because I had developed
7:19Pharmaceuticals and pregnancy tests and
7:22laboratory controls and instruments for
7:24doing automatic bacteriological
7:26assessment so this was something that
7:28really had
7:30I thought was very sociological and and
7:34medically relevant
7:37um and and what year was that that you
7:40got that was I started interviewing them
7:43in April
7:441988 I finally made up my
7:47mind in November of
7:5088 uh my Sal salary was mid six
7:56figures uh I got to move my family from
7:59New York City area to Louisville
8:01Kentucky where my daughter's
8:05grandparents lived and
8:07which uh and so when I did the calculus
8:14of should I do this and shouldn't I and
8:17I I would say I had my colleagues in the
8:20medical
8:21industry really
8:23were they were pretty pretty well split
8:25down the line but a I I was doing
8:29something I believe was was was had had
8:31high medical relevance and could save
8:34lives and that so that was a challenge I
8:36got Healthcare benefits just so we're
8:39clear why did you think that what you
8:40were doing there would save lives well
8:43the cigarettes
8:45take 440,000 lives in this country each
8:49year that are 100% preventable it's
8:52Thoughts with children age roughly 12 to
8:5613 uh as young as eight it manifests
9:00itself some 14 15 years later in some
9:04form of illness associated with either
9:06the tar or The Addictive nicotine could
9:10you change the carbon monoxide could you
9:13change some of the nail polish remover
9:16or the falahi baling fluid or could you
9:19change these chemicals that were known
9:22toxicants and remove them some of it by
9:26changing the format of the cigarette
9:28that is a cigarette that no longer was
9:32burning or combusting but something that
9:35was
9:36heated or something that had catalytic
9:39conversion or something that had what we
9:42call Affinity capacity to remove a
9:45certain component without changing it
9:49and uh that was exciting to me and I had
9:51many ideas and I would say during the
9:54process of the interviews which were
9:56extensive and very probing on my part as
9:58well as their part
9:59I wanted to make sure I understood what
10:01they understood and they clearly
10:03understood nicotine was addictive uh
10:06they clearly understood that they that
10:07that was their business uh and they
10:10understood that tar was the big problem
10:13uh they also wanted me to take a what
10:16was considered an archaic
10:19organization and contemporize it it was
10:22a very empirically based organization
10:25that they wanted immedi to make more
10:27scientific average age was about 45 46
10:31there are very little
10:33phds uh the laboratory is more like uh
10:37i' say like a high school laboratory not
10:40what I would call state-ofthe-art
10:41so uh so I had a number of areas but the
10:45thing that really kind of turned me on
10:46was that I would be able to make a safer
10:49cigarette I would be able to spend
10:50enormous amount of Capital Money
10:53building a a science based organization
10:57institution hire
11:00people pay exceptionally well healthare
11:02benefits and then family close the
11:05family and what turned you off you left
11:07in 1993 I was fired be honest uh what
11:11turned me off was probably three months
11:13into the job where I was told by lawyers
11:16that the science that I understood from
11:19the surger General's report when I had
11:20learned in medical school and medical
11:23journals was all uh defeatable in the
11:27court of Laura and there were two
11:28fundamental that they asked me to uh
11:32Express both publicly and privately was
11:35one that nicotine wasn't addictive for
11:37was addictive it no longer would be free
11:39choice and that was a basic defense and
11:42the second is there was no proven
11:44causality between smoking and illness
11:47well those are quite contradictory to at
11:50least
11:52my discussions with the with the senior
11:55management I mean Senior Management of
11:56these the of bat
12:00btis and Brandon Williamson in other
12:02words there was a kind of conspiracy of
12:04Silence that we know this is all true in
12:07our private conversations will fess up
12:09to it but when we go public we're going
12:11to say that uh none of this is provable
12:15uh as a matter of law you got it and
12:17that was exactly the posture they took
12:18in courts
12:21until the documents in
12:231993 made their way into public domain
12:26which changes the way the tobacco
12:28industry operates
12:33[Music]
13:22okay well tell me how the exposure of
13:24all of this
13:26happened how the exposure well it it was
13:29a gradual process I I I would say people
13:31who think this happened as an
13:35epiphany it doesn't it was I saw how
13:38lawyers Chang documents I saw how
13:39lawyers misus their privilege I saw uh
13:44people exporting tobacco seed outside
13:46the country that was illegal I I saw
13:49many things that bothered me but I guess
13:51the thing the sty that broke the camel's
13:54back was when a particular so to speak
13:56so to speak yes was a additive that have
14:00been used and there are about 600
14:01additives that are added the cigarettes
14:03that make them easy to smoke and enhance
14:05the potency of
14:07nicotine uh was I got a what's called a
14:11pre-draft report of a national
14:13toxicology program report which I
14:16maintained my medical contacts while I
14:18was there so I got to read it and it
14:19basically said one of the additives that
14:21were was being used by the company and
14:23had been banned in
14:251954 by the Food and Drug Administration
14:28continued to be used news and I said
14:30with this incremental knowledge that
14:31this is a lung specific percentage and
14:34it needs to come out right away I went
14:35to the president with it and I had the
14:37data validated by a professional
14:40toxicologist he basically told me to go
14:43back to the laboratory Find The
14:44Substitute that he wasn't going to take
14:46it out it would defect sales it was his
14:48decision not my decision and that's kind
14:51of when I wrote the faithful memo and
14:54that's what got me fired for poor
14:57communication poor communication it was
14:59too clear what you wrote yeah it was I I
15:01believe it violated the categorical
15:03imperative I mean it it put people in
15:06more Harm's Way than the product by
15:09itself and I thought there was a duty a
15:11moral duty to take it out and and BMW
15:15sued you BMW sued me uh BMW sued me for
15:19allegedly violating my contract for
15:23telling somebody my salary as I was
15:26going through the recruiting process uh
15:28they used that as a
15:31ploy as a instrument to intimidate I
15:36think that think because what they did
15:37is they cut my health care benefits off
15:40and they cut off my salary servs package
15:43the salary was not so much of an issue
15:45with me was being able to protect the
15:47health of my daughter and they was she
15:51threatened she was threatened later on
15:54and I that's a separate little entty of
15:56it but taking our Healthcare benefits
15:59away would have been was threatened her
16:01help I mean uh and they offered me this
16:05Draconian agreement that basically said
16:08anytime I was asked anything about
16:09tobacco
16:11or before I could say anything I'd had
16:13to tell them and they had the right to
16:15have lawyers present and I signed
16:19it and
16:22um because you were under such Financial
16:25duress I mean yeah part part of it was
16:27Financial duress I mean I was out of a a
16:29half a million dollar job uh but you
16:32know I wasn't broke mhm for sure uh
16:36though that I feel that I would not be
16:38able to get another job in back at where
16:41it came from and that be that's it's
16:44first time in my my career I ever became
16:45a bridesmaid and I mean and I just
16:48thought there was a lot of poisoning of
16:50the well even though I had a written
16:53agreement that they would provide
16:55positive references because by
16:57performance perals what at the company
16:59were outstanding and I got all the
17:01bonuses and benefits etc
17:04etc so how did it fall apart you had
17:06this deal what happened
17:09well number of things happened I got
17:11involved with CBS 60 minutes and
17:13reviewing documents that they received
17:15from an anonymous source the names of
17:17the people that were on documents were
17:19people I had been across from at
17:21meetings uh they basically said they
17:24couldn't develop a cigarette that did
17:26not cause fires uh they had it in the
17:29hand in 1986 and in 1993 they're saying
17:33it was an
17:34impossibility and that would have saved
17:361,200 lives a year and
17:39enormous impact and loss uh property
17:43property caused by fires generated
17:46exclusively by cigarettes and it just
17:48bothered me that they would shove it
17:51they would call it Hamlet to burn and
17:53not to burn and that that sort of
17:55started me in the process do I
17:57really want to keep quiet uh I was still
18:01concerned about my family um the
18:05hearings went on in April 1994 I watched
18:08my boss raise his right hand and promise
18:11to tell the truth he lied he said nitin
18:14wasn't addictive that cigarette smoking
18:17was no more dangerous than Twinkies I
18:19knew that was
18:21incorrect uh at that time
18:24I realized that if I didn't do something
18:29I would be just as guilty as as he was I
18:31I would be guilty that is a bystander
18:34ISM uh I started working covertly with
18:36the FDA my code name was research and I
18:39basically took the FDA through the whole
18:41process of cigarette design and then
18:44took the commissioner through every
18:45aspect of this would be Dr David Kesler
18:48this was Dr David Kesler and he Pro he
18:50promised that if I you know my deal was
18:53I would only work with him and my name
18:55would be protected and I would sign logs
18:59I travel under assume names and they
19:01honored that that promise I him and Jack
19:05Mitchell uh when I reported to the
19:08company the first time I was contacted
19:09by Congressman Waxman was the first time
19:13and I was asked to T would I would I
19:15testify you know if we if we got the
19:18proper instrument would you testify and
19:20I said yes I would I'd be more than
19:22happy but I need an instrument because I
19:24had this honorous Draconian type
19:26agreement that I've signed uh um get me
19:29a subpoena and I'll be there in a
19:31heartbeat and it didn't happen right
19:34away and there were conversations going
19:35back and
19:36forth and I decided to tell the company
19:39that I been contacted and that's when
19:41the two death threats came to my
19:43children not to me and that shook me a
19:47little bit um guess it would any parent
19:50yeah I mean it it it it really shook me
19:52and um you know I don't have a problem
19:55taking responsibility for my actions but
19:58I didn't want my children hurt for
20:00actions I I was taking um then I got
20:05involved in the ABC Phil Mars
20:08uh10 billion lawsuit and I saw of how
20:12Phil Mars
20:14operated and when August 5th 1995 rolled
20:18around I had already
20:20reviewed many documents that I was never
20:23able to review while I was in the
20:26company called the cigarette papers and
20:29uh were these documents that were
20:30forthcoming in the suit by the State's
20:33Attorneys
20:34General unfortunately not they were
20:37documents that was stolen by a paralal
20:40by the name of Merill
20:41Williams and that that that was
20:44problematic but the documents
20:47were they were the smoking guns and they
20:49were more than smoking guns uh they made
20:52their way to a professor at of
20:55Cardiology at UC San Francisco he
20:57published him in jamama jamama asked me
21:00to review the documents for authenticity
21:04the Journal of American Medical
21:05Association sorry Journal of American
21:07Medical
21:08Association and I mean I couldn't
21:11believe what I read and on August 5th
21:151995 I decided that I was no longer
21:18going to hold my tongue and I was going
21:20to tell
21:22people uh exactly what I knew when I saw
21:25it went on what why I thought was the
21:28same for light um and some of the going
21:32on that we in the company about boosting
21:34nicotine with ammonia and making it more
21:36addictive targeting children I mean I
21:38can go down the Litany of of of
21:43of accusations allegations I guess
21:46they're called that have been that been
21:49very much validated I was never
21:51fortunate enough to be to bring the
21:54documents with me that I had would I had
21:57so is that when you sued I was sued when
22:01my name became no my first suit was they
22:04alleged that I violated my secrecy agree
22:06my fiduciary responsibility as an
22:08officer by telling somebody my salary
22:11right right that was trumped up right
22:13and for that they extorted from me what
22:16I would consider the most tronan gag
22:18order essentially yeah yeah and I I
22:21broke it I consciously broke it because
22:25I felt that there was no contract or
22:28or agreement that could prevent me ever
22:31from protecting the public health and
22:33safety and if if so I had the duty to do
22:36it and I I did it and they sued you
22:41again and part of the settlement in the
22:44suit by the state's attorney general was
22:47that they would drop the charges against
22:48you as well was that it they sued me in
22:53um I guess no October of 1995
22:58uh I was freed from that lawsuit after
23:01extended depositions and bodyguards and
23:04being followed and the the 800 lb
23:08gorilla that I mentioned uh on June 20th
23:131997 at 6 p.m. at the Ana Hotel over on
23:1724th at M Street here in DC DC um any
23:23regrets about having done this
23:26no um no
23:31I it was an
23:37amazing alignment of stars there was an
23:40amazing alignment of or or stew or
23:44chemistry that happened I mean the
23:46timing was perfect uh I got support from
23:49journalists the students I was teaching
23:51helped me uh the principal I mean the
23:55teachers right rallied around me
24:01uh there was times that I I felt
24:04uncomfortable I mean I wasn't sure
24:07nobody feels exactly comfortable when
24:10you have a
24:11bodyguard and people opening your mail
24:13and starting your car because of the
24:16truth uh that did not make me feel very
24:21secure um in the end was it the right
24:25thing to do yes was it morally right yes
24:28uh what I do it they can in a heartbeat
24:31a New York minute well we have to thank
24:34Dr Jeffrey wand for his courage and
24:37willingness to do what's in the uh
24:40public interest and within the scope of
24:43his moral conscience uh you did the
24:45right thing and we are all better for it
24:48uh I'm Mark hen and this has been
24:50whistle where you work
24:53[Music]
25:05I started out as an assistant
25:08prosecutor and in those days back in the
25:11late 70s in the Kansas City prosecutor's
25:14office there weren't very many that
25:16looked like me in fact for a period of
25:18time I was the only one that looked like
25:21me um it was a very malale dominated
25:25office and unfortunately because of that
25:28I found myself with really hard
25:31cases um sometimes cases that were very
25:34difficult to make and many of them were
25:36not very glamorous they were things like
25:39food stamp fraud and um you know
25:43burglaries and things that especially at
25:46the beginning before I kind of earned my
25:48keep they were really throwing me what
25:51was known around the office as the dogs
25:53and during that period of time I began
25:57to resp respect the power of a good
26:00witness a factual witness the power of
26:04someone who was there and who saw what
26:08happened and could convey it with
26:11courage I saw both kinds I saw witnesses
26:16that refused to say anything because
26:18they were worried about themselves and I
26:21saw witnesses that were able to step
26:22across the line and say I'm going to
26:24talk about this because it's for the
26:26greater good and the most heartbreaking
26:29thing as my career progressed I became
26:31the boss of that office in the 90s and
26:35time after time we would have the most
26:37horrific violent crimes that we could
26:40not move forward on because we couldn't
26:42find that factual witness that was
26:45willing to be brave and courageous and
26:46step up then I moved on to the auditor's
26:50office and we were able to do some
26:53really bang up audits I mean some stuff
26:55that um you know with not Not only was
26:58there smoking guns there were bonfires
27:01and invariably every time we did one of
27:03these audits that was so strong it could
27:06always be traced back to a
27:08whistleblower someone who was a fact
27:10witness who was quote unquote at the
27:12scene of the crime and who was willing
27:14to step across that line be courageous
27:17and speak out publicly for the greater
27:19good and Missouri believe me you think
27:22the federal law for whistleblowers is
27:23bad I mean it is a horrible law for
27:26whistleblowers in Missouri in fact the
27:28only protection whistleblowers have in
27:30Missouri was to talk to the state
27:31auditor's office WooHoo for me uh not
27:34good for the rest of the government but
27:36we were able to I think do some Cutting
27:38Edge audit work because of uh that
27:41little thread of protection that
27:44whistleblowers had in the state
27:45auditor's office where we could protect
27:47them so you you understand why I came
27:50here with a penchant for protecting
27:52whistleblowers
27:56[Music]
27:59n
28:03[Music]
28:20[Music]

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