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Where Islamist Terrorism Really Comes From - Ed Husain — Transcript

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0:02The best way to approach [music] the
0:03Muslim Brotherhood is to see it as an
0:04ideology. If Mecca, the UAE,
0:08Egypt, [music]
0:09and other Muslim countries can reject
0:11them and deradicalize their population,
0:13[music] what stops us from saying we too
0:16will reject what came out of Nazism and
0:18Marxism
0:19here in the [music] West?
0:21>> You're saying
0:23something what I think is quite
0:24extraordinary, which is that the
0:26government of Britain
0:28and the intelligence [music] services of
0:29Britain are fostering and allowing this
0:33extremism [music]
0:34to flourish in Britain because it gives
0:36them leverage in their dealings with
0:38Arab country. [music]
0:39>> Yes.
0:40Yes.
0:41>> Well, that's extraordinarily
0:42irresponsible and dangerous, isn't it?
0:44>> That's a statement of fact.
0:45>> Isn't that suicidal?
0:47>> That's [music] how the strategy started
0:49in the 1980s. It's suicidal because they
0:51thought they could contain it. If it
0:53admits what you've just asked [music]
0:54them, Francis, to admit, it means A
0:57they're responsible and B they must do
0:58something about it.
1:01>> This episode is sponsored by our friends
1:03at Hillsdale College. Right after this
1:06episode, go check out their incredible
1:08online courses, which are absolutely
1:10free at hillsdale.edu/trigger.
1:14Ed Husain, welcome back to
1:16Triggernometry.
1:16>> Konstantin Francis, thank you for having
1:18me.
1:18>> Oh, it's great to have you on. Uh we
1:20want to talk to you really about two
1:22things, both of which we've covered in
1:24previous interviews, but not in the
1:25level of detail that we would want to go
1:27into. One of them is effectively the
1:30seed of all extremist Islamist
1:32organizations in the world, which is the
1:34Muslim Brotherhood. And I was just
1:35confessing to you that it was only when
1:38you talked about it on our show last
1:40time that we
1:41came to the realization that actually
1:43this is where all of this stuff springs
1:46from. And if we don't know that, I would
1:49imagine lots of other people don't know
1:50that. And so we want to talk about that.
1:53And the second thing we want to talk
1:54about it, as you probably aware, there
1:56is a a kind of raging debate in
1:58countries that have large Muslim
2:00populations now, particularly in Europe,
2:02about is there such a thing as Islamism
2:06or is all Islam potentially something
2:08that becomes
2:10>> Yeah.
2:10>> extreme.
2:11Uh and you are the literally the best
2:13play
2:13place person in the world to talk to
2:15about that. Um so, let's start with the
2:19Muslim Brotherhood
2:20and just tell everybody what it is,
2:23where it comes from, and why it's so
2:25important to understand
2:27for the modern context.
2:29>> Great question, and thank you to both of
2:31you for having such an interesting or or
2:33an interested approach to all this
2:35global issue because it's relevant in
2:36almost every country,
2:38and it's going to become even more
2:40relevant in the years ahead. But, as you
2:43rightly identify, Constantine, we've got
2:44to go back and we have to go back to
2:461928
2:47when the movement started, and it is a
2:49movement and not an organization. And I
2:52think too often too many of our
2:53political
2:55uh leaders make the mistake of thinking,
2:57"Where is the organization? Where is its
2:59postcode? And how do we ban it?" It's
3:02It's It's a wider movement. It plays a
3:04certain mood music, and it started in
3:061928 in Egypt for the following reasons.
3:09The founder was a primary school
3:12teacher. Nothing against you, Francis.
3:14>> [laughter]
3:15>> But, he was a primary school teacher in
3:17Egypt, and he
3:20had several issues with the wider world.
3:23The first issue was he opposed the
3:26abolishing of the caliphate in Turkey in
3:281924, which had just happened 4 years
3:30previously. He wanted a kind of Muslim
3:32presence, a Muslim dominance, a Muslim
3:34led empire that confronted the West and
3:37confronted
3:38what was then Russia stroke Soviet
3:41Union. So, he had that kind of
3:42confrontational bug within him.
3:44Practicing Muslim, observant Muslim. The
3:47second issue that he had was he
3:49complained in his letters
3:51about the presence of American
3:52evangelicals across the country that why
3:54are these evangelicals preaching in
3:56Egypt, which is a majority Muslim
3:58country, and why do we allow this to
4:00happen? Where is our Muslim sense of
4:03manhood that we let these Americans in?
4:06And the third point that really offended
4:07him was seeing Egyptian men, Egyptian
4:10women dancing, drinking alcohol,
4:14spending time on the cruises, and Egypt
4:17becoming so Westernized to the point
4:18that he, as someone from the Egyptian
4:20countryside, felt that this
4:22Westernization, globalization disturbed
4:25him.
4:26So, those three issues, the destruction
4:28of the the the Turkish caliphate, the
4:30destruct the presence of the Americans
4:32and the Brits and the evangelical
4:34movements, and third, the the the
4:36Westernization of Egyptian society in
4:38Cairo, led him to then go to various
4:42Egyptian religious institutions,
4:45the Al-Azhar, which is a prominent
4:46university in Egypt, a religious
4:48institution, it's been there since the
4:5019, so the 950s, so you know, our
4:53Oxford, if you like, um
4:55since before Oxford. Al-Azhar, the
4:57greatest prominent Sunni institution. He
4:59goes there and says, "You're a religious
5:01institution. You have thought leadership
5:03over, you know,
5:05uh
5:06every Muslim Sunni country. You should
5:08do something about this problem." And
5:10Al-Azhar say, "We're going to approach
5:11this in our own wise,
5:15nuanced, complicated way. Give us time."
5:17And he says, "No, we must set up a
5:18movement. We must confront this problem
5:20head-on." So, Al-Azhar turning away, he
5:22goes to a group of Muslim mystics. Egypt
5:24has these huge mystical orders, Sufi
5:26turuq, we call them.
5:28And the mystics also turn him away and
5:29say, "You know, you're going to be
5:30dangerous. You're too politicized. That
5:33is not the way of the Prophet Muhammad.
5:34You've got to be calmer. You've got to
5:36accept reality for what it is, and
5:38change yourself first, and then change
5:40follows. And it's not our business to
5:42confront America and to confront the
5:45Soviet Union." So, they disagree with
5:47him. And this is the issue that he's a
5:49breakaway from mainstream Islamic norms.
5:52That he decides to take it up on
5:53himself. He rejects Al-Azhar, the
5:55thousand-year-old Muslim institution
5:57that's still there. He rejects the
5:59Muslim mystics that are dated from the
6:01time of the Prophet Muhammad, old
6:03orders, and he says, "I will create my
6:05own movement, and I will work towards
6:09recreating the caliphate, bringing back
6:11Sharia as state law, and thereby
6:14confronting the West, correcting the
6:16misdemeanors that I see." So, the bug of
6:18the Islamic state,
6:20whether it's ISIS or Al-Qaeda or
6:22Hezbollah, and it's also connected to
6:24Iran, by the way, or Hamas, started
6:26there in in Egypt in the Suez Canal area
6:29called Ismailia in 1928.
6:32So, you were just saying earlier,
6:33Francis, we're going we're going to be
6:34facing the hundred-year
6:36>> Mhm.
6:36>> moment, um, in a couple of years' time.
6:38But but the organization still sticks
6:41with us and hasn't left us. But there
6:43are other points that that he then
6:45absorbed. Those were the three kind of
6:47starting points,
6:48um, that motivated him, but then he
6:50developed an entire ideology. And I'll
6:52say this, Constantine, that
6:54the best way to approach the Muslim
6:56Brotherhood is to see it as an ideology.
6:58>> Mhm.
6:59>> So, if we talk talk about something
7:00called the MBI, Muslim Brotherhood
7:02ideology, then we're on to something.
7:04Then we're fighting the true battle of
7:06ideas. Just saying we're going to shut
7:08down their bank accounts, although
7:10helpful,
7:11is really putting a Band-Aid, as they
7:13say here in America, Rob, or a plaster
7:15back home in England, with with with
7:17with the bleeding problem that the
7:18Muslim Brotherhood have sought to create
7:21across the world.
7:22>> And just coming back to the ideological
7:24inspirations of it. I mean, the issue of
7:26the caliphate, I think, is something
7:28that's worth exploring, because the
7:30caliphate, effectively, is it's kind of
7:33been explained to us by four other
7:34guests in the past that the central
7:37fight within the Muslim world is between
7:39the people who believe in nation states
7:40and the people who don't want nation
7:42states, they want the entire area of the
7:44Middle East and perhaps elsewhere to be
7:46controlled by one theocratic
7:50>> Correct.
7:50>> world view. And that's essentially the
7:53main theme that's driving these people.
7:55Is that right?
7:55>> Correct. Correct. And it's correct
7:57because if you take away the argument
8:00for creating what they call an Islamic
8:01state, then you end up in accepting the
8:04status quo, modernity, multiple nation
8:07states, and working within these
8:09sovereign jurisdictions where you have
8:11the rule of law
8:12as you know, the late great Roger
8:15Scruton used to put it, the rule of law
8:16has jurisdiction, and that jurisdiction
8:18is the nation state. Um that's why some
8:21of us have reservations about something
8:22called international law. Well, who's
8:24going to enforce it? Um [clears throat]
8:26so So, that's the way of the modern
8:28world. Now, those who believe in the
8:30Islamic state believe ultimately in
8:32creating some kind of Islamist empire.
8:36And while they call it an Islamic state,
8:38what they mean is their state, their
8:40interpretation of Sharia, their form of
8:43law, and they or their allocated leaders
8:47are in charge
8:48for this
8:49uh supranational
8:51state. And it's a confrontational state.
8:54It's an expansionist state. So, it's
8:56much like say, I don't know, the Soviet
8:58Union or at its heyday, the
9:02uh
9:03uh you know, the Ottoman Empire.
9:04Um the Chinese weren't really
9:06expansionist in those days, but um so
9:09So, the question is what is a caliphate
9:10or what is an Islamic state? Right? So,
9:13the hallmark of their understanding of
9:14the Islamic state is that it must have
9:16one leader, and it must have frontiers
9:19and not borders.
9:21>> What is the difference?
9:22>> Frontiers are temporary, and they can
9:23expand.
9:24>> Ah.
9:25>> They They go and
9:26>> How convenient.
9:27>> So, they they don't believe in borders
9:29or nation states. So, the whole world at
9:31some point must come under the control
9:32of this caliphate or of this Islamic
9:35state. whole
9:36>> or just the areas that have been
9:37historically populated and controlled by
9:39Muslims?
9:40>> The first priority is to reconquer
9:42Spain, Sicily, India, parts of China
9:46that were once Muslim. Um but but you
9:49don't ultimately stop there. You
9:50continue to expand to bring the whole
9:52domain under what they call, you know,
9:55the domain of peace or the domain of
9:56Islam.
9:57>> Mhm.
9:57>> Um now, here's the problem with this
10:00worldview. This is a worldview that was
10:02advocated first and foremost by Hassan
10:03al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim
10:05Brotherhood in the 1920s.
10:08And it's then spread on to Hamas and
10:10al-Qaeda and others.
10:12Well, the problem with that worldview is
10:14the problem that Hassan al-Banna found
10:16in 19 in the 1920s that most Muslims
10:19rejected him and reject the Brotherhood.
10:22And most If you look If you read
10:24classical Islamic literature, there is
10:25no reference to the Islamic system.
10:29This was taken from Hegelian thought.
10:32This was taken from
10:33later German Nazi thought that we must
10:36create a system, we must create a Reich,
10:39we must be against the Jews, we must be
10:41against the West, we must reconquer
10:43land. This was the mood music of the
10:451920s and 30s that the Muslim
10:47Brotherhood embraces, absorbs, and
10:48continues
10:50to uh protect. Um there was a very very
10:54high-level prominent Muslim scholar
10:56called Ali Abd al-Raziq in 1926 wrote a
10:59book called, you know, Islam and
11:01Governance. And in it he's he very uh uh
11:06in detailed fashion drawing on Muslim
11:08jurisprudence for 1,400 years says,
11:10"There is no system of governance within
11:14Muslim cultures, plural."
11:16And we know that when the Prophet
11:17Muhammad passed away, he doesn't
11:19allocate a particular caliph. He doesn't
11:22say there's going to be a caliphate. He
11:24doesn't say, "You must all be united
11:26under this one ruler." Because even in
11:29his time, there were Muslims living in
11:30Abyssinia. There were Muslims who were
11:32living in Mecca, and subsequent to him,
11:35there was an Umayyad caliphate out of
11:37Damascus, and there was another
11:39caliphate out of Mecca.
11:41And even in the days of the Muslim
11:42Brotherhood when they were founded,
11:43there were Muslims living in Indonesia,
11:45in Morocco that did not
11:49come under Ottoman or Turkish rule.
11:51>> Mhm.
11:52>> So, the argument is nothing other than
11:54propaganda. The argument is nothing
11:56other than their theorizing of creating
11:59a thousand-year Reich or in their
12:00context a thousand-year caliphate to try
12:03and control the rest of us. And if I may
12:06just just say one other thing,
12:08their biggest enemies are not the
12:10Israelis.
12:11Uh their biggest enemies are not really
12:13the Western countries. It's fellow
12:15Muslims because it's other Muslims that
12:17opposed them.
12:18And they went, and as we will go through
12:21some of the subsequent decades, they
12:23killed, they assassinated Egyptian prime
12:26ministers, Egyptian judges, and then
12:29they go and assassinate
12:31Jordanian politicians, Saudi
12:33politicians,
12:35um and Al-Qaeda, as we've seen, leads
12:38that assassination culture into this
12:40great city here, New York, and 9/11 was
12:43a result of that. So,
12:45you know, their enemies, yes, ultimately
12:47become the West, and ultimately what
12:49they call the small Satan, Israel, but
12:51it's really ordinary Muslims that
12:53opposed them and reject them. And the
12:55best evidence for that is, you know, we
12:57have 2 billion Muslims roughly.
12:58>> Mhm.
12:59>> The Muslim Brotherhood, whose membership
13:01maximum, if we include its global
13:04following, is probably no more than 5
13:06million, and I'm being very generous.
13:08So, it's a small, I mean, I think it was
13:11Gramsci who said an organized minority
13:13can control a disorganized majority. So,
13:16that's where we are. It's a very
13:17organized, coherent minority.
13:20>> And and very well motivated. I remember
13:22reading a book called Milestones.
13:25Uh I remind me who it's by. He's very
13:26closely connected to
13:27>> Sayyid Qutb, yeah.
13:28>> Yes.
13:29>> Yeah.
13:29>> And the thing is I think part of the
13:31problem and why we don't understand
13:33these things very well is we we've been
13:37conditioned. I don't know whether it's
13:38Hollywood or whether it's just human
13:39brains or whether it's World War or
13:41whatever, but we have this vision that
13:43the people who who want to fight us or
13:45kill us or they do so because they're
13:47evil. They're motivated by evil. But
13:50when you read Milestones, you got oh,
13:53this makes a lot of sense because they
13:55actually believe that Islam is good
13:58and it's the light and it must be
14:01brought to everybody because everybody
14:03will benefit and therefore, you know, if
14:04you have to kill some people, that's and
14:06and that's basically every evil evil
14:08everyone who's done evil in history has
14:10been motivated by something like this,
14:12right?
14:12>> Yes. Hannah Arendt writes writes about
14:14this after she observes the Eichmann
14:16trial in Jerusalem in the 1960s trying
14:18to understand the Nazis.
14:20They never saw themselves as bad people
14:22or as evil people. Most Nazis just said
14:25we were doing our jobs, you know. And
14:27that's the danger when you abandon your
14:28own conscience and you think you're just
14:30doing your job. And the problem with
14:31lots of religious people is they think
14:33we're just doing God's command. And
14:35there's there's a real danger there that
14:37you can end up following, say for
14:38example, in the case of Iran, the
14:40Ayatollah by abandoning your own sense
14:43of what's right, what's wrong, what sits
14:45well in your heart. So we have these two
14:46dangers that I'm just doing my job in a
14:48secular sense and I'm doing God's
14:50command in in in in the religious sense.
14:53And again, Voltaire was very critical of
14:54that mindset. Um but between you know,
14:57those two extremes, I think there's an
14:59important truth that you're that you're
15:01referring to, Constantine, is that yes,
15:03Sayyid Qutb came out of America, by the
15:06way. You know, he spent 2 years in in
15:10Colorado and Washington D.C. Um he too
15:12was a school teacher. Uh
15:15>> [laughter]
15:16>> What is it with you boys, man?
15:18This is what children do to you.
15:20>> it's not Islamism that's the problem.
15:21It's you Lawrence.
15:22>> It's the kids. That's what would drive
15:24you nuts.
15:25>> It's the next generation.
15:26>> Yeah.
15:26>> Right.
15:27>> Yeah. So, and then the Egyptian
15:29government sends him here to get
15:30training to become a schools inspector.
15:32And what's really interesting that he
15:34leaves America worse than he arrived. Um
15:38and then he goes obviously and writes
15:39this famous book, you know, uh Ma'alim
15:42fi al-Tariq or Milestones as you rightly
15:44put it. Um
15:47I was going to say when Douglas Murray
15:48was a friend, he used to talk about the
15:50fact that someone wanted to translate
15:52Milestones as um Pebbles Along the Way.
15:56Giving it a sense of warmth and
15:59journey and who who hates pebbles? You
16:01know, but anyhow, so Milestones is this
16:03kind of critical text.
16:06Sayyid Qutb leaves America, I think, in
16:081951 with several big problems.
16:12We talk about incels now, right? I mean,
16:14I think he was the OG incel because he
16:16refuses to get married, refuses to have
16:18relationships with women. Um and when he
16:22was in hospital here, he he writes in
16:24his book um about what I saw in America,
16:27you know, Amrika allati ra'aytuha. He he
16:30he he he says how women are voluptuous
16:33and women, you know, want to dance with
16:34him and women are showing his thighs to
16:37him. In other words, he opposes the
16:38entire freedom of women to dress however
16:40they wish to dress here. And that
16:41disturbs him deeply. And he goes back
16:43and he writes against the the the the
16:45the the strength of women, the presence
16:47of women, the charisma of women. So,
16:49that's the first thing he takes from
16:50America, a real hatred for American
16:52women. I think we'd call that misogyny
16:54in our day and age, but that's the first
16:56thing he takes away. The second thing he
16:57writes about after leaving America is
16:59something called Social Justice in
17:01Islam,
17:02which is really weird for most of us who
17:04grew up reading Islamic classical
17:05Islamic literature. We know we don't
17:07have a thing called social justice
17:09in the Aristotelian sense. We have
17:10justice.
17:11And in the Quranic sense, we have adl
17:13again and again, just justice. Because
17:15justice
17:16is [clears throat] unfair to people of
17:18backgrounds, is unfair to whether you're
17:20women or to men or whether you're black
17:21or white. But he comes up with this
17:22social justice, which was then a big
17:24movement here in America. So, he
17:26Americanizes Islam and writes about
17:28social justice.
17:29And the third thing he takes away from
17:31America and then he takes that into the
17:32prisons of Egypt, which produces
17:34Milestones, is a deep deep venom towards
17:37African-Americans.
17:38>> Mhm.
17:39>> And he he he calls them
17:42the N-word and refers to them as having
17:44these primal instincts and therefore
17:47producing jazz music to which monkeys
17:49and others can dance.
17:51And so, he he leaves America with this
17:53deep sense of
17:55uh
17:58deep hatred towards some of the most
18:00important things in America, you know,
18:01freedom uh um
18:04>> [clears throat]
18:05>> the justice system which he manipulates
18:07and then obviously, you know,
18:09the racial equality movement that was
18:11coming to force
18:12uh you know, under the leadership of
18:13Martin Luther King and others.
18:15He then goes back to Egypt and he and
18:17and this is the strangeness of the man.
18:19He says the Egyptian government is not a
18:21Muslim government.
18:23He says most Egyptians are not Muslims.
18:25He he makes what we call takfir or
18:28excommunicates them from Islam and he
18:30says only a small vanguard of him and
18:32people around him are true believers and
18:35they're the ones who are in prison being
18:36tortured. Now, in an attempt to be fair
18:39to the man, he's had a hard time in
18:40America, he goes to Egypt, gets put into
18:42prison and the Egyptian government
18:44tortures him and his contention is, "How
18:47can a Muslim government torture me for
18:49trying to be a better Muslim, trying to
18:51bring about an Islamic state?" It's your
18:53point earlier, Constantine, that I'm
18:55only being a good Muslim, why am I being
18:57tortured?
18:58But the Egyptian government's point was
19:00he and his organization had supported
19:02the assassination of the Egyptian Prime
19:03Minister, several Egyptian judges, and
19:06they had found 150 cases of ammunition
19:11contained by the Egyptian Muslim
19:13Brotherhood, and the question from the
19:14authorities is what's this for? And they
19:17said, "Oh, it's to blow up the Zionists
19:18in neighboring Palestine."
19:20But the government was convinced that
19:22this was going to be used in Egypt, so
19:23they saw them as the as the terrorist
19:25organization, and Milestones is author
19:27Qutb is put into prison.
19:29And that's when he comes out and he
19:31writes
19:32Milestones and commentaries on the Quran
19:34that justify the assassination of the
19:36Egyptian
19:37president again, Gamal Abdel Nasser, and
19:40calls every Muslim government in the
19:42world non-Muslim. In other words, you
19:46are a legitimate target for us. It's not
19:47just Israelis,
19:49by then only [clears throat] a
19:503-year-old state, and it's not just the
19:51Americans, which had then supported
19:53Israel, so they now turn against America
19:55more viciously, and it's not just the
19:57British imperialists or the European
19:59colonizers,
20:01it's every Muslim government, and you
20:03too must go. And your supporters, which
20:05means ordinary Muslims. This takes us
20:07back to the original point that, you
20:09know, Islam and ordinary Muslims are the
20:10biggest threat to the the Milestones-led
20:14worldview.
20:15Um
20:16You mentioned Milestones, and I should
20:18say something else. Because in around
20:201966,
20:22uh Sayyid Qutb was hanged by the
20:24Egyptian government for writing
20:26Milestones. We should also remember that
20:28his his brother, Muhammad Qutb, then
20:32begs the Saudis for
20:35asylum. And they, being generous
20:38Arabians in the Gulf, if you visited,
20:40you'll see the hospitality, the warmth,
20:42the kindness of the people there, take
20:43him in. And his thank you to them is to
20:46help create Osama bin Laden. So, as a
20:48teacher, sorry, again, now as a
20:50professor at the university, I'm guilty
20:52of this, too. Um he he he radicalizes an
20:55entire generation of Saudis. So, from
20:57Milestones to his younger brother,
20:59Muhammad Qutb, goes to Saudi Arabia, and
21:01he physically teaches Osama bin Laden in
21:04in in the university in Jeddah, and a
21:07cool how to young young Saudis
21:09were mostly Salafis mostly focused on
21:11their own salvation and upkeeping
21:14rituals and are politicized from this
21:17Egyptian bug that comes out of Sayyid
21:19Qutb. So, the book you reference is
21:21really important Constantine because it
21:22gets exported into Saudi Arabia and
21:25through Egypt and Saudi Arabia around
21:27the rest of the Muslim world.
21:29>> Most of the useful information I get in
21:32a week doesn't come from reading. It
21:33comes from conversations, meetings,
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22:52>> [snorts]
22:52>> You know what? There's going to be a lot
22:53of people listening to us who are from
22:55the West
22:56and they're listening to what you're
22:57saying and they're thinking to
22:59themselves,
23:00"Well, why do these ideas resonate?
23:02There must be something there for it to
23:05resonate as much as it does and for it
23:08to have
23:09a brotherhood of 5 million people?
23:11>> Excellent question. It resonates because
23:14this organized minority of 5 million,
23:16again being generous,
23:18uh
23:19are able to message to a disorganized,
23:21disparate, decentralized Muslim world
23:24because we don't have a pope. Mhm. You
23:25know, we're much more kind of live and
23:27let live, much more individualistic to
23:29point to our concerns and say,
23:32"Here's a problem. Here's the solution."
23:34So, the Muslim Brotherhood is renowned
23:36for saying Al-Islam wal-hal, which is
23:38Islam is the solution. Again, in a in a
23:41thousand-plus years of Muslim history,
23:42no one said Islam was the solution.
23:45Islam with a small I always means a
23:47state of mind. It's supposed to
23:50you know, encourage peace and submission
23:51to God rather than
23:54you know, being a solution for a
23:55problem. Um very few problems have
23:57solutions. Um it's supposed to be
23:59healing. So, they they they've created
24:01this new slogan that Islam is the
24:03solution, Al-Islam wal-hal. And then so
24:05you you you pick a problem, Francis. You
24:07you find, you know, Muslims being
24:09killed, say, um in Kashmir. Well,
24:12they're not being killed because they're
24:13Muslims, they're being killed because
24:14they're caught between India and
24:15Pakistan and a geopolitical conflict
24:18over borders. The Muslim Brotherhood
24:20will say, "No, no, no. They're being
24:21killed because they're Muslims and the
24:23solution is what we said in the 1920s.
24:25Islam is the solution. The Quran is our
24:27constitution." That's their slogan. Um
24:31our greatest desire is jihad and our
24:33pathway is martyrdom. And they have this
24:35entire slogan, which mobilizes and
24:38allows ordinary people to think, "Oh,
24:39right. If we actually have a solution
24:41that meets violence with violence."
24:43So, in the West, they will say there's
24:45massive Islamophobia, you know, a term
24:47that they helped create, by the way. So,
24:49Islamophobia is their term. And now, if
24:51there's homophobia and if there's
24:53Oh, there's Islamophobia, too. So, if
24:55the Jewish people are complaining about
24:56anti-Semitism, well, we're going to
24:57complain and become victims of
24:59Islamophobia. And the way you confront
25:01that is by making Islam the solution, by
25:03focusing on your Muslim identity, and
25:05believing in jihad, and seeing the Quran
25:07as a constitution. So, that's why they
25:09succeed because their messaging is
25:11compelling. And it's a negative
25:13messaging. We're against all of these
25:15governments. Remove all of these 56
25:17Muslim nation-states. Remove Israel,
25:19remove America, and we'll have a much
25:21better state because we will give you
25:22Islam as a solution, and ultimately
25:24we'll try and create paradise on earth.
25:27Now, again, here's the other problem.
25:29Now, for 1,400 years, open up any
25:31classical Muslim text, there's no
25:32reference to the Quran as a
25:34constitution.
25:35Because that denigrates and demeans holy
25:37texts. It's scripture. It's the word of
25:40God. It's not a political document. But
25:42that's what they've made it to made it
25:44to be, and therefore it resonates with
25:46ordinary Muslims, most of whom
25:48sadly can't distinguish between Islam
25:52the faith and then this new thing that
25:54emerges and calls itself Islam
25:57two. And so, there's this blur between
26:00the faith and the and the political
26:02ideology that emerges under Marxist and
26:04Nazi influences. And that's why it's it
26:06resonates. It also resonates because
26:07it's very modern.
26:09If you meet some of the old I you know,
26:11elder Muslims in say Bukhara, you were
26:13you were talking about your visits to to
26:15Central Asia. You know, they're
26:17wispy-bearded, long, cap-wearing,
26:20mystical, you know, loving. Sure,
26:22they're socially conservative. Um but
26:24they're not going to blow you up. Well,
26:26they never used to. Um but but the the
26:28Muslim Brotherhood types, you know, they
26:30wear suits, they wear ties, they're
26:31often clean-shaven, they're thoroughly
26:33modern. And they and they have this
26:36cancer of deep
26:37you know, hatred for for the Western
26:39fellow Muslims. You want to say
26:41something else?
26:41>> No, no, I find it very interesting
26:42because when you're talking about this,
26:44it triggered something in me, which is
26:46um
26:47the Muslim Brother not not the Muslim
26:49Brotherhood. Uh what's the one that
26:51Muhammad Ali was a part of?
26:53>> Nation of Islam.
26:54>> Nation of Islam. So, when you're
26:56talking, it triggered something in me
26:57about is is a Nation of Islam very
27:00similar to the Muslim Brotherhood? Is it
27:02based on their text?
27:03>> That's a great question. It's a great
27:05question because the the the Nation of
27:07Islam,
27:08um, while not based on their texts,
27:10[clears throat]
27:10drew inspiration from this movement in
27:13Africa, i.e. Egypt, that is separatist,
27:16that is confrontational.
27:18But but uh uh
27:20and they were obviously focused here in
27:22America, but the Nation of Islam took
27:23other positions. They believed that
27:26Elijah Muhammad was a prophet and
27:28therefore the Prophet Muhammad was not
27:30final prophet of God. So, in creedal
27:32terms, they found themselves much
27:34further on the outside of global Muslim
27:36identity, but they did look look at
27:39Egypt. But I what I would hold up, I
27:41think, as a as a as a thought for us to
27:43all think about is
27:45Nation of Islam produces someone like
27:47Malcolm X, you know, a household name in
27:49America cut to this day. Um, all of my
27:51students look up to him, talk about him.
27:54But Malcolm X finds himself not only
27:56just in disagreement with the Nation of
27:58Islam, but he goes to um Mecca and and
28:02there is where he finds white people,
28:04black people, brown people side by side.
28:07And I think it's worth remembering that
28:09the radicalization agenda of both the
28:10Muslim Brotherhood, as well as the uh
28:13Nation of Islam, to your question,
28:15Francis,
28:16doesn't resonate in deepest Islamic old
28:19places such as Mecca because Malcolm X
28:21thinks white people uh with blonde eyes
28:24and with uh sorry, blonde hair and blue
28:27eyes are are literally the devil. And he
28:30he wrote extensively about it, that they
28:31represent the devil and demonic
28:33impulses. He goes to Mecca and suddenly
28:35finds himself praying beside Bosnians,
28:37between Russian Muslims, Palestinian
28:39Muslims, many of whom are uh you know,
28:42in in in in his world white, and he
28:43can't make sense of it.
28:45How is it that is present? So, he goes
28:47to this de-radicalization process and he
28:49comes out of Mecca um and returns here
28:52and has it and it talks in Malcolm in
28:54Martin Luther King's terms that forgive
28:56your white brothers and sisters and work
28:59more closely with them, which is what
29:00the woke culture today won't allow us to
29:02embrace cuz we've all got the original
29:03sin of being born white and straight. Um
29:06so, Malcolm X is de-radicalized and I
29:08think just as the Nation of Islam
29:11and the Muslim Brotherhood are rejected
29:13in Mecca
29:14and there's a strong message for all of
29:16us in the West. If Mecca, the UAE,
29:20Egypt, and other Muslim countries can
29:22reject them and de-radicalize their
29:24populations, what stops us in the West
29:27from saying we too will reject what came
29:30out of Nazism and Marxism
29:32here in the West.
29:33>> I just talk about that part of it. By
29:35the way, what you're saying is something
29:36I've been banging on about since you
29:38informed and since my own travels and
29:40experiences with people from those
29:42countries, which is like all I want is
29:44for Europe and America to treat this
29:46problem the way Muslim countries do and
29:48I think we'd have a lot fewer problems.
29:50And I think it's an easy sell as well,
29:52right? Because so many people are afraid
29:54of like being bigoted or prejudiced, but
29:57if we all I I I ever say is why don't we
29:59just act towards this problem the way
30:01Muslim countries do. You know, I I think
30:03it's a reasonable request.
30:04>> Yeah, yeah, but that that that that's
30:05such a powerful request. Yeah. Uh uh um
30:08and it's a realistic request and it also
30:11shows up the European far left for
30:14basically being in bed with the worst
30:16elements of the far right in Muslim
30:19countries, in this case the Muslim
30:20Brotherhood. You were talking earlier
30:22about
30:23uh you know, the the red-green alliance,
30:25you know, which helped the Iranian
30:27government today to come into power,
30:28which helped Hamas come into power.
30:30Um so, um
30:33>> Let Let me come back to to something
30:34else, which is you've repeatedly
30:36referenced influence from Nazism and
30:39Marxism. And I think this is a good
30:41opportunity to go back to the historical
30:43storytelling.
30:451928, it's founded. How do you get from
30:48that to then where we've got to today?
30:52>> Because
30:53it's a it's a it's a great question
30:55because it links to your earlier
30:56question. By 1966,
30:58the Egyptian government, and you can you
31:00can fault the Egyptian government for a
31:02whole range of things, but you can't say
31:04they didn't understand the Muslim
31:05Brotherhood.
31:06Because Gamal Abdel Nasser, who was then
31:08the president, was part of the Muslim
31:09Brotherhood.
31:11Anwar Sadat, who they killed, was in
31:13regular conversations with both Hassan
31:15al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb. So, they knew
31:17the beast they were dealing with. They
31:18were part of it. They turned against it,
31:21and they both took Sadat especially
31:23literally a bullet from members and
31:25affiliates of the the wider affiliates
31:27of the Muslim Brotherhood. In Sadat's
31:28case, for making peace with Israel.
31:31But in it is in in the '60s when the
31:33Egyptians finally say, "We've had enough
31:35of this movement in the name of charity,
31:38in the name of education, in the name of
31:40religion, they basically want to turn
31:42Egyptian Muslims against each other and
31:44against their own government. We're
31:46going to ban them." At that point, large
31:48numbers of these newly urbanized doctors
31:52and engineers start to move out of
31:55Egypt. Some expelled, some welcomed out
31:58of hospitality and kindness of the
32:00Arabian Peninsula countries. And they go
32:02to the UAE, Qatar,
32:05Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and to some extent
32:08small numbers of them also go to
32:09Bahrain. And there they begin to
32:11radicalize a new generation of native
32:14peoples.
32:15But but many of these
32:17Egyptians who were rejected from
32:21institutions, especially universities in
32:23Egypt, surprise, surprise, want to come
32:25to universities in the UK and in the US.
32:28So, they end up because they're now
32:30political refugees and they're
32:32persecuted, some of the best
32:33institutions in the US and in the UK
32:36welcome the Muslim Brotherhood
32:38and say, you know, uh here's funding
32:41mechanism, you know,
32:43please set up whatever institutions you
32:45want to set up here, but you're now
32:46American citizens and British citizens.
32:49Meanwhile, from the Arab countries, both
32:52the Egyptians, but more recently
32:55and I think more directly and
32:56consistently and strategically, Sheikh
32:58Mohammed bin Zayed, the president of the
33:00United Arab Emirates, and Deputy Prime
33:02Minister and the Foreign Minister,
33:03Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed, um both have
33:06been
33:07um
33:07consistently
33:09um raising this agenda from
33:13you know,
33:14Barack Obama here as the president in
33:16those days
33:17to David Cameron, to Boris Johnson,
33:20to Theresa May, to Liz Truss, and now
33:23with uh the current British Prime
33:25Minister, whose name escapes me.
33:26>> Keir Starmer.
33:27>> Keir Starmer.
33:27>> Keir Starmer. So, here in New York is to
33:29say irrelevant, you just don't think
33:30about him.
33:31>> very charismatic.
33:32>> [laughter]
33:33>> Yes.
33:34Somehow that has been lost in the rest
33:35of the world, but but so so with Keir
33:38Starmer and his cohort, Yvette Cooper
33:40Cooper and others. And and the response
33:42is always, uh you know, twofold. One,
33:45that they're not a terrorist
33:46organization.
33:48Um and and two, uh we know better.
33:52To which the the the Emiratis and the
33:54Saudis and the Egyptians feel offended
33:57and refer to this long history that
34:00these guys start off, as they did by the
34:02way in Gaza, which is an excellent
34:04example. Ahmed Yassin
34:06goes to Gaza and in 1971 starts a
34:08charity.
34:10So, why would the Israelis oppose a
34:11charity? Why would the Brits oppose
34:14various charitable organizations
34:16functioning in the UK, similarly in the
34:18US, same model. They run charities.
34:21So, Ahmed Yassin throughout the '70s
34:22runs charities and then he
34:25expands into running a few mosques and a
34:27few schools, a few universities, and
34:30he's just like a provider of welfare
34:32where the state has failed. Why would
34:33you be opposed to him? But within 15
34:36years he had created an entire network
34:40of teachers, doctors, medical
34:42practitioners, and dependent families on
34:44him ranging in the hundreds of
34:46thousands. And then boom, in the late
34:48'80s Hamas. Now you have a paramilitary
34:51wing, which is something the Muslim
34:53Brotherhood has, a paramilitary wing
34:54much like the Waffen SS the Nazis had.
34:57So he now has a paramilitary that was
34:59Hamas. That's how it was born in the
35:00late '80s.
35:02We are seeing [snorts] the same thing
35:03across the West. So this is where the
35:05UAE and
35:06uh um Bahrain and to some extent now the
35:09Jordanians, the Kuwaitis, the Egyptians
35:11have been lobbying Western governments
35:13government to government saying what
35:15you're saying is a charitable
35:16organization, the model is that in Gaza
35:19they then become terrorists. In Egypt
35:22they became terrorists. In our countries
35:24they did exactly the same thing. So
35:26Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed and others
35:27went to universities with these
35:29extremist Muslim Brotherhood people. And
35:31they've seen we've seen this movie
35:32before and we're warning you this is
35:33what's going in going on in in the West.
35:36So you've got to shut this operation
35:37down because from here you are giving
35:40them
35:41platforms, media platforms, social media
35:44platforms with which they're
35:45radicalizing our populations against us
35:48and the wider Muslim world. Um and yes,
35:51they're anti-Semitic too. And yes, they
35:52support Hamas and terrorism, too. To
35:55which the intelligence agencies, and
35:56I've got to be blunt
35:58and I can do that because I'm here and
36:00we're here in America where we don't
36:01have to fear a knock on the door that
36:03our intelligence agencies basically
36:04quietly message, this is MI6 and others
36:07that
36:09this is the chatter inside government
36:10that
36:12having these guys here, the Muslim
36:14Brotherhood and its various supporters
36:16gives us leverage against Arab
36:18governments.
36:20Because we can say to them if you do A,
36:22B, and C, we will unleash these dogs
36:24with greater amplification here against
36:27you. So you would Do you want the
36:28barking of the Brotherhood dogs to
36:30increase or if you want us to work, you
36:33know, on a on a range of sensitive
36:35issues, let's kind of balance it out.
36:36So, it's very cynical Well, hold on. I'm
36:39sorry to jump it I You're saying uh
36:42something what I think is quite
36:43extraordinary, which is that the
36:45government of Britain Yeah. and the
36:47intelligence services of Britain are
36:49fostering and allowing this extremism to
36:52flourish in Britain because it gives
36:55them leverage in their dealings with
36:57Arab countries.
36:58>> Yes.
36:59Yes.
37:00That to my mind
37:02>> irresponsible and dangerous, isn't it?
37:04>> That's a statement of fact and the the
37:06first individual to highlight this was
37:09and you know, she's [clears throat] no
37:09friend of mine, but we've got to be
37:11honest and
37:12uh highlight you know, her scholarship
37:14on this was
37:15Melanie Phillips in her book
37:16Londonistan. She highlights this danger.
37:19Subsequently, Michael Gove's highlighted
37:21it. Subsequently, several recent
37:24ministers in the Home Office who left
37:26their posts after last general election
37:28have confirmed this in in private
37:30conversations, but all of this is backed
37:32up by our intelligence agencies by by
37:35basically saying
37:36we we we we don't think the Muslim
37:38Brotherhood and the various Arab
37:39opposition parties inside this country's
37:42are terrorist and we can't ban them
37:44because they're not terrorist
37:45organizations yet. Um so, we don't have
37:48the evidence and nor by the way do we
37:50have the resources to go and find out
37:52what they're really after because we've
37:53got 40,000 plus Al-Qaeda supporting
37:56terrorists, real terrorists. We can't go
37:58further down and and investigate what is
38:01basically an intelligence asset for us
38:03having these groups here,
38:05the Bahraini opposition, the Emirati
38:07opposition, the Muslim Brotherhood from
38:08Egypt. They're all Muslim Brotherhood
38:10people. They call themselves human
38:12rights activists, but they're all Muslim
38:13Brotherhood people that are an
38:15intelligence asset for the British
38:17government
38:18to leverage against our allies in the
38:20Arabian Peninsula. It's a complicated
38:22and dirty game, I'm afraid, but that's
38:23where we are.
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40:22So, basically, the British our
40:25government have allowed an existential
40:27threat
40:28to be to be on our soil so that we can
40:31foster and we can have an advantage over
40:35our allies in the Middle East. I mean,
40:36that's isn't that suicidal, Aiden?
40:39>> That's how the strategy started in the
40:401980s. It was suicidal because they
40:43thought they could contain it. Our
40:45government thought it would be just, you
40:46know, a a group of guys sat in North
40:48London smoking in
40:50in Edgeware Road. But, what what what
40:52happened and you're absolutely right,
40:54it's suicidal because these guys didn't
40:56just stick around in Edgeware Road. They
40:58went out onto campuses and started
40:59radicalizing and recruiting a new
41:01generation of British-born and raised
41:03Muslims. And now we're on generation
41:05three.
41:06Whereas the intelligence agencies
41:08thought that they would be just nice
41:09local assets they could use to bully the
41:11Emirates, bully the Saudis, bully the
41:13Jordanians, bully the Kuwaitis, bully
41:15the Bahrainis. But, now this beast is
41:17out of control exactly as those
41:19countries have told us that they've seen
41:21this movie before. You start with
41:22charity and schools and mosques and it
41:24becomes
41:25you know, a suicide mission. And that's
41:27what's happened. 7/7 was a direct
41:29outcome of that that these guys then
41:31think, "Guess what? We're going to We're
41:33going to We're going you know,
41:35we're going to now take hostage the
41:37British government and its foreign
41:39policy. We're now going to take hostage
41:41Keir Starmer and his foreign policy in
41:43relation to Iran and what we're seeing
41:45play out in the Middle East." So, what
41:47the British government and intelligence
41:49agencies thought was an asset against
41:51Arab governments and disregarded Arab
41:53governments' advice has now turned on
41:55the British government itself.
41:56>> How can they be so naive? Did they not
41:58see the way that this was started, the
42:00way it spread through the Muslim world,
42:02the chaos and misery that they created,
42:04the terrorism?
42:05>> When when was the last time you met the
42:07average British civil servant?
42:09No disrespect intended, but these are
42:11simple folk. They come out of the
42:13shires.
42:14They they won't have a respectable life.
42:16They want to They they pursue what's
42:18called lines of least resistance, you
42:20know, where there's no controversy. They
42:22don't go into government to be accused
42:23of being racist, Islamophobic. So, what
42:26we're discussing, I like to think we're
42:28all free people in a free country freely
42:30exploring ideas. They can't have this
42:32conversation. They're terrified of
42:34saying what you've just said that this
42:35is suicidal.
42:37Because it would be seen as questioning
42:39the policies of their
42:41older bosses that brought them into this
42:43job and now potentially appearing in
42:46Islamophobic to their Muslim
42:49uh
42:49colleagues and worse
42:52having to admit that the government has
42:53made mistakes and therefore do something
42:55about this problem, which is to start
42:58identifying
42:59the Muslim Brotherhood's influence on
43:01now almost 2 million plus Muslims, some
43:05of whom I Muslim Brotherhood ideologues
43:07are now in the government, are now in
43:09the House of Lords, are in the House of
43:10Commons,
43:12are in the British media space and you
43:14know, this cancer is spreading, but the
43:15government if it if it admits what
43:17you've just asked them Francis to admit
43:19that this is a disastrous policy, it
43:21means A they're responsible and B they
43:23must do something about it. Safer to say
43:26you know, this is complicated.
43:28>> Well, but there must be a point where
43:30Look, eventually you've got to address
43:32what's actually happening.
43:34>> why I disagree with you and this is the
43:35point I was going to make.
43:37You say there must come a point, but the
43:38point has come the other way. I mean, we
43:40saw this
43:41in some ways the Jeffrey Epstein scandal
43:44was actually very helpful because one of
43:46the things that happened is Peter
43:47Mandelson, who was implicated in in a in
43:50a weird relationship with Jeffrey
43:52Epstein. That caused Wes Streeting, the
43:56health secretary,
43:57>> Yeah.
43:57>> to for some reason release his private
43:59communications with Peter Mandelson, in
44:02which we saw that they talk openly in
44:05private about the fact that they can't
44:08get elected
44:09>> Yes. in certain seats without pandering
44:12to the Muslim
44:13>> Yes.
44:14>> So, what you have now actually is a set
44:16of incentives that actually drive them
44:17in the opposite direction as exactly
44:19you're saying. They've created a problem
44:21that now determines how they behave
44:23politically and far from having an
44:25incentive to admit what the problem is
44:27on the contrary, they will pander more
44:30as this problem gets worse.
44:32>> And I just want to but surely there's
44:34there's not a human element Ed where you
44:37look at the bombings of the area and the
44:39area grand Ariana Grande concert in 2017
44:42and you see the bodies of little girls
44:45getting carried out. Is there not a part
44:47of you that just goes
44:49no more?
44:51Do is there not simple human decency?
44:53>> That that that's where you deploy deploy
44:54MI5 and you put greater resources in
44:57monitoring the the terrorist or the
44:59physical violence threat and that that
45:01would be the response. We've allocated
45:02more resources, we've put the prevent
45:05program into place and that that where
45:06the human element comes in. But the
45:08biggest strategic piece is that you in
45:11you know intentionally fostered and fed
45:15this beast and now you've radicalized
45:20Muslim populations in at least 45 to 50
45:23constituencies in northern parts of
45:25England and you know I I tried to do
45:28this in my last book among the mosques,
45:30warn what's going on inside these
45:31communities and the feedback was a
45:33negative media campaigning and attacks
45:35from major Islamist organizations in the
45:37UK um Labour MPs very reluctant to have
45:41this conversation
45:42and now what we're seeing is that the
45:44the human response is
45:47you know again in the in in in the
45:49spirit of being free and not censored
45:51the human response seems to be political
45:54parties that are breaking away from the
45:56Tory party, reform
45:58and and several others that are saying
46:00enough is enough
46:01um which is a dangerous response because
46:04it means maybe on the left we will see
46:06what what you call, you know,
46:08the red green alliance.
46:10The far left greens with the far right
46:12Islamists coming together to combat
46:15what's going on on the on the right of
46:17the Tory party, which is not what you
46:18want in the country, but all of this
46:21comes from that Egyptian moment in the
46:221920s. It's the spiraling effect, the
46:24snowball effect of the power of ideas
46:28and the nature of identity and the
46:30moment in which we find ourselves. And
46:31that's, you know, it's not complicated
46:33to say we've got to go back to that
46:35pluralist space of classical liberalism
46:37where we live and let live, but we are
46:39loyal to our nation states and a set of
46:41ideals that allowed all of us, all three
46:44of us to come together here
46:47uh, as as free people in a free country.
46:49And then coming back a little bit to the
46:51history, what is the nature of the links
46:53between German Nazism and the Muslim
46:57Brotherhood? Yeah, I can see that that's
46:59a fantastic question won't ask that
47:01because they don't want to go into that
47:03thought space which says, all right, the
47:04Muslim Brotherhood has connections to
47:06Nazism.
47:07And it does. The connections are as
47:09follows. Hassan al-Banna is
47:11the the founder. His brother was called
47:14Abd al-Rahman al-Banna. And Abd
47:16al-Rahman
47:18was in regular contact with Haj Amin
47:20al-Husseini, who was then the Mufti of
47:22Jerusalem.
47:24And Haj Amin al-Husseini
47:26as the Mufti of Jerusalem went and met
47:28Adolf Hitler, supported the Nazi
47:31movement, disseminated Mein Kampf, and
47:34made sure that he made several
47:37broadcasts through prominent Arab
47:40platforms to
47:41to ensure that Arabs were supporting the
47:43German Nazis and against the Brits and
47:46the French for colonial reasons. But it
47:48goes worse and it goes further than
47:50that. I mean, at this point you could
47:51say, you know, what, they made the wrong
47:52call. There was a war against Britain.
47:54They were British imperial or colonized
47:56subjects and they wanted to be against
47:57it and they backed the wrong horse, the
47:59Germans. But it's actually more sinister
48:01it's actually more sinister and deeper
48:03than that and it it's to do with the
48:04following, that Hadj Amin al-Husseini
48:07supports
48:09the Nazis
48:11anti-Jewish platform.
48:13And he argues that Jewish people have no
48:16right to settle in Jerusalem. So, he is
48:19behind the Holocaust and supportive of
48:21the Holocaust. And I've met his grand
48:24family grand family grandchildren in New
48:27York sorry in in in Jerusalem and we've
48:29had this conversation. So, what I'm
48:30saying isn't just concocted historically
48:33proven and it's known in the family that
48:34the mistake was made to support the
48:36Holocaust.
48:38So, that connection to the Palestinian
48:40radical Mufti via the brother of the of
48:43Hassan al-Banna then leads to them
48:45inviting him to come and settle in
48:47Egypt, but worse a leading Nazi um von
48:52Allesch is also then invited who then
48:55became Omar Amin in in Arabic to convert
48:58and come and settle in
49:01Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood's
49:02protection.
49:04Those are two direct connections of the
49:06Muslim Brotherhood to living physical
49:08Nazi supporters and the and the entire
49:11movement supporting the Nazis. But but
49:14the real connection is ideological and
49:16geographical. In other words, what was
49:19going on in in in in neighboring
49:21Palestine at the time,
49:23they openly support the expulsion of
49:26Jewish people and Jewish people settling
49:27in Palestine. And then they the Muslim
49:30Brotherhood declared jihad on the state
49:32of Israel and they go and fight in that
49:34jihad against the state of Israel
49:36because of their earlier Nazi leanings
49:38that we cannot have Jews settling in
49:40Israel. We must remove them. We must
49:42complete the job that Adolf Hitler had
49:44started.
49:45And the second point which is the more
49:47ideological point is just as the Nazis
49:50believed in uh a supremacy, they believe
49:53in a supremacy of just their type of
49:55Muslim Islamist. Just as a Nazi said,
49:58"We want to create a thousand-year Reich
49:59for Germans and for Europe led out of
50:02Germany." They believe in a
50:03thousand-year caliphate led out of Egypt
50:05led by Egyptians, not the Meccans, the
50:08original Muslims,
50:09but the Egyptians.
50:11And and just as the Nazis believed in
50:13using violence and being expansionist,
50:15they believe in the same thing. And we
50:17will already mention the Jew hatred, you
50:19know, on which they have the the
50:20supremacist standing. But here is the
50:22real issue I think that we've got to
50:23bear in mind so we don't kind of make
50:25mistakes as we're thinking about this,
50:27that just as the Egyptian Muslim
50:29Brotherhood was
50:31uh sympathizing with the Nazis, aligning
50:33with the Nazis, becoming under Nazi
50:36influences, and giving protection to
50:38Nazis inside uh Egypt, um you had in
50:42Mecca, in the Arabian Peninsula, and
50:44that's why I'm obsessed with the Arabian
50:46Peninsula because it it is the home of
50:47Islam. It's where it was born, and I
50:50find Muslims there much more interesting
50:52than you know, Muslims in other parts of
50:53the world for a whole range of reasons.
50:54But just there the the Sharif of Mecca,
50:57who was a descendant of the Prophet
50:58Muhammad, uh who was governing Mecca, at
51:01the same time, the true Arab, the real
51:04Arab in Mecca, in the Arabian Peninsula,
51:07is in discussion with Chaim Weizmann,
51:09the head of the World Zionist
51:10Organization, saying to him, "Jewish
51:12people are welcome to come back to the
51:13region. You were You were from this
51:15region, and you are to mean to our
51:17people as Arabs. So, you know, you're
51:18from us, you're among us. Come back, and
51:20let's build a civilization together."
51:22And that was going on at the same time
51:24as the Nazism in Egypt. But the Arabian
51:27Peninsula, which didn't come under
51:28occupation and had a kind of freer, more
51:30authentic expression of Islam, welcomes
51:33the Jewish people back. You can see the
51:34correspondence between Weizmann and the
51:36Sharif of Mecca.
51:37What then happens in 1919 with the peace
51:40agreement in France complicates matters,
51:42and then, you know, uh there's a turn
51:45and Zionism. But before we get to that
51:47point, we have to accept and admit that
51:50there are two narratives here. There's
51:51the Muslim Brotherhood narrative of
51:53being Nazi sympathizers, and there's the
51:55Arabian narrative of the Sharif of Mecca
51:58that is welcoming Jewish people back
52:00to the region. And I think we're we're
52:02seeing with the Abraham Accords and
52:03what's going on in the UAE is that
52:05narrative being amplified. That these
52:07are people, you know, from us, you know,
52:09they're welcome back to the region. And
52:11what we have to find is a way how
52:12Palestinians and Israelis learn to live
52:15side by side together. But, that is not
52:17what the Muslim Brotherhood's Nazis
52:18wanted. They wanted the German agenda of
52:21obliteration, of killings, and therefore
52:24the participating in the 1947 war led by
52:28the Muslim Brotherhood uh where they
52:30where they cross borders and go and
52:31fight the fight fight the Jewish
52:32population that's trying to settle in in
52:35then Palestine, now Israel.
52:36>> And one of the connections I can see
52:38between Nazism and the Muslim
52:41Brotherhood's ideology, it's it's a
52:43victimhood ideology.
52:44>> Correct. Correct. It's It's It's It's
52:46going back to a glorious past.
52:48Um when things were greater.
52:50>> Mhm.
52:51>> You know, when when when
52:53there was a there was a great German
52:54identity, then the Germans were great,
52:56and Hitler's project was that, you know,
52:58we're we're a victims of
53:00the economic crisis, we're victims of
53:03the migrants controlling everything,
53:05we're victims of Americanization. The
53:07Muslim Brotherhood say the same thing,
53:08you know, we're victims. We've got to go
53:10back to the glorious days as they
53:11imagine them to be.
53:13>> And you have the solution, and you have
53:14the final solution.
53:15>> Yeah, that's a great point. I hadn't
53:16thought about that.
53:18The solution. Yeah, that's a great
53:20point. The final solution is what the
53:21Nazis called it. The uh the Muslim
53:23Brotherhood calls it al Islam wal hal,
53:25Islam is the solution. Al hal, the
53:28solution, the only solution.
53:30Um one of the beauties I find about the
53:32Quran is that doesn't talk in this total
53:33terms. For example, the Quran always
53:35says, you know,
53:36il al sirat al mustaqim, we guide you
53:38due to a straight path.
53:40Again and again, you know, it's the
53:42indefinite article a straight path. The
53:44Muslim Brotherhood goes for the path,
53:47the solution that's totalitarian,
53:49maximalist. It's a great point. The
53:51solution is a
53:53the final solution.
53:54>> Because there'll be a lot of people who
53:56are listening to this, Ed, who in the UK
53:59mainly or in other countries as well,
54:01and they'll be like,
54:03"Ed, you're making great points, but why
54:04is it
54:06a lot of Muslim people in the UK don't
54:09come out and openly criticize and
54:11condemn this ideology?"
54:14>> Because the moment they do, you will
54:15have members of the House of Lords now,
54:18at least eight members of Parliament
54:19now, large sections of the British
54:22media, as well as people in mosques
54:25condemn
54:27that the potential of someone coming up
54:28and taking a voice against the Muslim
54:30Brotherhood's ideologues
54:32in Britain. You'll be you'll be attacked
54:35as being a sellout. You'll be attacked
54:37as being
54:39uh you All kind of racial terms are
54:41used. And then, and you know, I I speak
54:43from personal experience, they they sue
54:45you, they come after your assets, they
54:47target your family members, you become a
54:49pariah. And, you know, inside mosques,
54:51you're lampooned as
54:54uh
54:55being against the community again,
54:58the Muslim community.
54:59Um which I just think is total nonsense
55:01because, you know, why should I be you
55:03know, again from personal experience,
55:05why do I feel much more at home now, you
55:08know, among Muslims here in America or
55:10among Muslims in in today's Egypt, UAE,
55:13Saudi Arabia, Bahrain,
55:15uh Turkey, Kuwait, you know, countries I
55:18visit, totally at home because of this
55:20position against the Muslim Brotherhood.
55:22But, the moment I'm in the UK and I
55:23criticize the Muslim Brotherhood, some
55:25suddenly, you know, online and
55:27physically have fingers pointing at me
55:29saying, "You're you're a sellout." I
55:31mean, what am I selling out to?
55:33UK's my country, the West is my
55:34inheritance, and our Arab friends are
55:38both family and allies of us, and and
55:41Islam is our inheritance. And what what
55:43am I selling out to? Because
55:45the political ideology is so deeply
55:47ingrained. It's also the victimhood
55:49point you made earlier, Francis, that
55:52you know, we can only vote Labour or
55:54Green, and you know, uh it's you know,
55:57to be totally blunt, it's it's a racism
55:59of low expectations.
56:00That you know, this is your place.
56:03Know your place, and stick to it. You
56:06know, you you
56:07This is who you vote for. This is your
56:09narrative. This is what we expect you to
56:10say. This is who you must protest
56:13against. These are the riots that you
56:15must participate in. If you defy any of
56:16that, how dare you? We will we will call
56:18you a sellout, and we will call you a
56:20government stooge. Um and that's the
56:22kind of pathetic, ugly,
56:25uh low, shambolic,
56:27flawed language that's thrown around,
56:30rather than dealing with ideas and the
56:32consequences of the Muslim Brotherhood
56:34ideology, both in the UK and further
56:36afield. But I'd go further than that,
56:38and I'd say that the ideologues of the
56:40Muslim Brotherhood,
56:42many of whom dominate you Muslim
56:44discourse in the UK, don't want to see a
56:46Britain that is free.
56:49Don't want to see that a Britain that
56:51upholds this classical liberal
56:53inheritance. Want to see a Britain that
56:54is weak, and you know, Kier Starmer's
56:57Britain. They they are happier with the
56:58Britain that will not take positions on
57:01Iran's nuclear program. They are happier
57:03with the Britain that will not condemn
57:05Hamas, and will not participate in
57:07attempts to obliterate Hamas. They are
57:09happier with a Britain that is at odds
57:12with the United States of America, and
57:14at odds with other other powers that are
57:16taking a different direction. So I I I
57:18just think it's a you know, people may
57:20not articulate it in such terms, but
57:22that's the impulse.
57:23And that's the feeling.
57:25>> Choosing to spend an hour or two
57:27listening to a serious conversation,
57:29rather than scrolling a feed of hot
57:30takes, says something about how a person
57:33thinks. It says they would rather try to
57:35understand something properly than have
57:37a quick opinion about it. The same
57:39distinction applies to the great books.
57:41Hillsdale College runs a free online
57:43course called Great Books 101 ancient to
57:46medieval. It is taught by actual
57:48Hillsdale professors and it takes you
57:49through Homer, Sophocles, Virgil,
57:51Augustine, Dante, and Chaucer. Not as a
57:53cultural tourism exercise, but as a
57:55genuine introduction to the arguments
57:57these works were written to make and why
58:00these arguments still hold. You, the
58:02Trigonometry audience, are not generally
58:04the type to accept a summary in place of
58:06the real thing. The same logic applies
58:08to the books that built the West. If you
58:10want to understand what Homer actually
58:12argued or why Augustine's thinking still
58:14underpins half of Western political
58:16philosophy, you should read them, not a
58:19listical about them. This course is the
58:21right place to start. Worth knowing is
58:23that Hillsdale is releasing a full
58:25course on Homer's Odyssey this July.
58:27Great Books 101 is a natural place to
58:30start before that lands. Go to
58:32hillsdale.edu/trigger
58:34to enroll. It's totally free. That's
58:37hillsdale.edu/trigger.
58:40>> [snorts]
58:40>> And you yourself are obviously an
58:42example of something that I think anyone
58:44who's paying attention will see, which
58:45is
58:46you know, in your your book Among the
58:48Mosques, you went around mosques around
58:49Britain and you reported effectively
58:52what you heard and saw there. And many
58:53of the things you saw were positive and
58:55you also reported on the things that you
58:56saw were negative. And now you live in
58:58America.
59:00>> And and it seems to happen to basically
59:01anyone who who says anything critical
59:03about this issue, they end up moving to
59:07join another country.
59:08>> Because you feel yourself out of place.
59:10You you you you feel yourself that
59:12you're no longer welcome, Constantine.
59:14And
59:15you know, I I
59:17I I I remember a journalist
59:20from the BBC phoning me saying, you
59:22know, that they they read Among the
59:24Mosques and they wanted to discuss it.
59:25Would I come on? And I said, "Sure,
59:27anything to amplify where Britain is
59:29heading cuz I'm genuinely worried about
59:31partitions. I'm worried about entire
59:33areas saying, "Oh, this is only a Muslim
59:35area.
59:36Um you know, you who are not Muslim
59:38can't enter."
59:39And I'm genuinely worried about the the
59:41the prospects of this becoming an armed
59:43conflict in parts. I I mean,
59:4615 20 years from now, that's where we're
59:47heading.
59:48So, that was the conclusion. And yet, um
59:50Among the Mosques as a book could not be
59:52discussed on the BBC because a very
59:54prominent Muslim broadcaster
59:57vetoed the interview saying, "I won't
59:59interview him because what he's going to
1:00:01be saying brings harm to the Muslim
1:00:03community." And so, I find that approach
1:00:05to be troubling. You put the community
1:00:08above your country.
1:00:09>> Mhm. Yes.
1:00:10>> And that's not the way of being Muslim.
1:00:12Your loyalty is to your nation-state,
1:00:14and you put the country first.
1:00:16And then you put whatever community you
1:00:18belong to. And we belong to multiple
1:00:19communities,
1:00:21plural, you know.
1:00:22Um as a professor here at
1:00:25Georgetown and Columbia, I have my kind
1:00:26of academic community, but I have other
1:00:28book communities. And sure, my faith
1:00:30community is central to that, but it's
1:00:32not my first
1:00:34line of
1:00:35public defense. So, that's why I think,
1:00:37you know, what's going on in Britain is
1:00:39really worrying that you you can't take
1:00:40a position on this without being
1:00:43cast as an outsider in your own
1:00:44so-called community,
1:00:46which bolsters the problem.
1:00:47>> And I I think you said bolsters the
1:00:49problem. I also think it bolsters the
1:00:51response, too, because what you end up
1:00:53having is, I think, the truth there's
1:00:55nobody wants to say out loud, but much
1:00:58of the anti-immigration sentiment in
1:01:01Europe is not actually about immigration
1:01:03at all. I mean, no one complains about
1:01:06Ukrainians. No one complains about Hong
1:01:08Kongers. No one really seems to care
1:01:10about that. There is a a hardening
1:01:12against Islam in Europe. Uh it's
1:01:15undeniable, I think. And I think it's
1:01:17probably partly because people who
1:01:19articulate the point of view that you
1:01:20articulate can't exist and be heard
1:01:24there. And so what we hear from are the
1:01:26people who who have a Muslim Brotherhood
1:01:28style extremist worldview.
1:01:30>> Yeah, and therefore there's a response
1:01:32to that. The response is Yeah, that that
1:01:35ordinary people are sick and tired
1:01:36across the UK of being told um that your
1:01:40kids in a school full of Muslims can't
1:01:42draw
1:01:43uh you know, human images because it's
1:01:45somehow forbidden.
1:01:47That you know, I I that that in parts of
1:01:49the NHS that you've got to cover your
1:01:50your your arms and if you're a nurse you
1:01:52can't show parts because it's frowned
1:01:54upon that the the postman is is is a
1:01:57Muslim postman. The bank is dominated by
1:01:59Muslim clerks. That you know, that that
1:02:01that that Uber drivers are all all all
1:02:04Muslims. And parts of Dewsbury and
1:02:06Oldham and Manchester and Keighley and
1:02:10East London and Luton. And these are
1:02:13prominent parts of the UK. They've
1:02:14changed. They've changed beyond
1:02:16recognition. You know, no no my
1:02:18ancestors came, you know, from
1:02:20originally from Yemen to India. From
1:02:22India my father came to the UK in 1953.
1:02:25And he didn't want to come and see a UK
1:02:27changed. He came to the UK for what it
1:02:29was and he wanted to see the UK retain
1:02:32its own identity with with its pluralism
1:02:35and its beautiful countryside. My
1:02:36friends now, you know, both family in
1:02:39Yemen, family in Saudi Arabia, family in
1:02:40the UAE are all terrified of coming to
1:02:43those parts of the UK and terrified of
1:02:44going to London because they no longer
1:02:46feel safe. So this concern about
1:02:48immigration both legal and illegal that
1:02:51then consolidates Islamism
1:02:53isn't just a concern shared by ordinary
1:02:56British folk
1:02:57uh in in in pubs and where else. It's
1:02:59just lots of Muslims and others are
1:03:02feeling the same problem that this is
1:03:03not the country that we we want for our
1:03:05children. I mean, someone
1:03:07showed the image of the Prophet Muhammad
1:03:09from Charlie Hebdo magazine as as an
1:03:12illustration as a teaching point and
1:03:13that poor teacher has been in hiding for
1:03:15the last 5 years.
1:03:16>> Mhm.
1:03:17>> And how is that possible
1:03:18that
1:03:19uh showing a news agenda, a news item
1:03:23leads to a
1:03:24you know, a pupil talking about it in at
1:03:27home in passing, and then their parents
1:03:29organize mass demonstrations.
1:03:31Um the the problem now is worse than it
1:03:33is in Pakistan.
1:03:34>> So, I was just going to say, and one of
1:03:36the interesting things about that the
1:03:37school is called Batley Grammar School
1:03:39for those people who want to research
1:03:40it, is the education union refused to
1:03:44support him or get involved in any way,
1:03:46which just demonstrates the culture of
1:03:48fear.
1:03:49>> That's tens of thousands of members
1:03:50represented by this union, and that will
1:03:53just spread further and further in the
1:03:55years to come.
1:03:56But, I I don't mean to be
1:03:59you know, monocock monocausal, but
1:04:02this is this is an effect, and the cause
1:04:05here is the Muslim Brotherhood's
1:04:06ideology of separatism, of
1:04:08confrontation, of supremacism, of not
1:04:11wanting to integrate, of not wanting to
1:04:13be loyal to the nation state, and
1:04:15interpreting the Sharia to be different
1:04:17from for example, you know, one of the
1:04:19greatest Muslim scholars of our age, two
1:04:21come to mind, you know, one is Sheikh
1:04:24Abdullah bin Bayyah, who's the Mufti of
1:04:25the United Arab Emirates, who's a
1:04:27prominent French-speaking,
1:04:28philosophically inclined jurist. And
1:04:31then there is you know, a younger Muslim
1:04:33scholar called um
1:04:36Dr. Muhammad bin Abdul Karim al-Issa,
1:04:38leader of the Muslim World League, heads
1:04:40up 57 Muslim countries out of Mecca.
1:04:43Now, Sheikh Abdul Karim al-Issa
1:04:45has again and again, you know, talked
1:04:46about the importance of respecting
1:04:48Auschwitz. He's been to Auschwitz. He's
1:04:51talked about the importance of Muslims
1:04:52recognizing the Holocaust and moving
1:04:54away from the extremism that the Muslim
1:04:56Brotherhood enforces on us.
1:04:58If if more Muslim schools and Muslims
1:05:01were to embrace the worldview of you
1:05:03know, Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Karim
1:05:04al-Issa or Sheikh bin Bayyah, who talks
1:05:06about the Sharia in the following terms.
1:05:08He says that wherever the Sharia is
1:05:10basically freedom of conscience, freedom
1:05:12to worship, freedom to own property,
1:05:14that you're physically secure, and you
1:05:16know who your family members are. You
1:05:18know, you have a They call it nasab in
1:05:20Arabic. That's Sharia. By that
1:05:22definition, we already have Sharia in
1:05:24England. We don't need to be wanting to
1:05:27change the laws and wanting to change
1:05:29the customs. The Arabs have a beautiful
1:05:31approach. We call it urf. You know, the
1:05:33customs of a country, you don't change
1:05:34it. You maintain the customs and
1:05:36traditions and culture of a country,
1:05:38which is urf.
1:05:39You don't drink alcohol? Okay.
1:05:42Go and have an orange juice in the pub.
1:05:44But But however hard it must be for some
1:05:46Muslims to accept, we have to recognize
1:05:49the
1:05:50the you know, the flexibility within
1:05:51Islam.
1:05:53That there was you know, a Muslim
1:05:54interpretation that drinking, you know,
1:05:56Ibn Sina, famously a great Muslim
1:05:59medical practitioner and philosopher,
1:06:00used to drink. And some of the Muslims
1:06:02say that's that is Ibn Ibn Sina's
1:06:04position. I'm not saying we should go
1:06:05and drink, but I'm just saying that
1:06:07flexibility exist. The Ottomans were
1:06:09famous on spirits.
1:06:10To this day, you go to Turkey, even at
1:06:12the highest level of the so-called
1:06:14Islamist government,
1:06:16people are drinking spirits.
1:06:18Uh so there's a beer drinking culture in
1:06:20mainstream Turkey to this day. So why do
1:06:23British Muslims have to have to snigger
1:06:25and dismiss either Ibn Sina or the Turks
1:06:28or a more flexible approach to Islam
1:06:30from Sheikh Bin Bayyah or Sheikh Abdal
1:06:31Karim Alissa and other big luminaries in
1:06:33the Muslim world and say, "We are going
1:06:35to do what's been working in the
1:06:36villages of Pakistan."
1:06:38And we're going to impose the villages
1:06:40of Pakistan on the rest of the country.
1:06:42And with that, we're going to bring the
1:06:44Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and fur-
1:06:46further radicalize our you know, younger
1:06:48generation. And that's the worst
1:06:50combination you've got there, you know,
1:06:51the remotest parts of Pakistan combined
1:06:54with the with the extremism of the
1:06:56Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
1:06:57>> Well, that's a very interesting point
1:06:58because as I'm listening to you talk,
1:07:00and I'm the ideology, obviously, is the
1:07:03main part, but it's also we need to
1:07:05discuss the cultural element of this. Uh
1:07:07for instance, we saw with grooming
1:07:09gangs, it's a
1:07:10predominantly a cultural phenomenon. So,
1:07:12how much of this is ideology and how
1:07:15much of this is a cultures that we've
1:07:17imported from places like Pakistan,
1:07:19Bangladesh, et cetera.
1:07:20>> Yes, I the grooming gang thing just
1:07:23beggars belief and I to be I just don't
1:07:25understand it.
1:07:26I really don't. But, I'll say two
1:07:28things. When I was in some of those
1:07:30towns in the north in Rotherham um and
1:07:33parts of Manchester and I met you know
1:07:36well-meaning white working-class people
1:07:38that had seen their
1:07:40young daughters, nieces uh
1:07:44taken away and groomed and then used as
1:07:48sex objects. They would raise that with
1:07:50me.
1:07:51And I put it in the book because my job
1:07:53isn't to filter. My job is to actually
1:07:55tell what I saw up there.
1:07:58My publisher said, "We can't put this in
1:07:59the book."
1:08:00Cuz it's too explosive. It's too
1:08:02dangerous. It'll be interpreted as
1:08:05racist. So, that was taken out of Among
1:08:08the Mosques
1:08:09because
1:08:11the publishing elite in London
1:08:13thought that was just
1:08:15too insensitive, although that's what
1:08:17was
1:08:18discussed by uh people I met in some of
1:08:20those towns.
1:08:22The second point is and again, I know
1:08:24viewers in London will have or or the UK
1:08:27more widely will have a kind of
1:08:29instinctive bad feeling me saying this,
1:08:31but we have to be true to what's true.
1:08:34And when
1:08:36I raised this with imams in mosques,
1:08:39there was one particular imam at a
1:08:40mosque in Bradford who said to me
1:08:43that
1:08:45local
1:08:46uh police officer had asked him to raise
1:08:48this issue
1:08:49in the congregation and say, "If you
1:08:52taxi drivers um
1:08:54or Uber drivers, if you are giving
1:08:57uh a lift to a young girl in the 12, 13,
1:09:0014, 15, 16 late at night after she's
1:09:02after she's drunk, you know, don't make
1:09:03a move on her, don't disrespect her. Um
1:09:06let her take her home, treat her as a
1:09:09child, you know.
1:09:10And asking the Imam to say all of that,
1:09:12the Imam said,
1:09:14"I can't say that." And then the
1:09:16police's request was, "Well, why not?"
1:09:18Because it's kind of safety and health
1:09:20issue and child protection issue. He
1:09:22said,
1:09:23"Because, you know, most of my
1:09:24congregation who are drivers and
1:09:27security guards
1:09:28have repeatedly said to me that these
1:09:30girls are hitting on them, that these
1:09:31girls wear mini skirts, that these girls
1:09:33are drunk, and these girls want the
1:09:35companionship of these men late at
1:09:37night, and therefore, if I'm seen to be
1:09:39siding with the girls against my
1:09:41congregation, my own job is at risk."
1:09:44And I just thought that was, you know,
1:09:45the
1:09:46Yeah, sure it's weak, sure it's flawed,
1:09:48sure it's irrational, sure it's
1:09:49illogical, but the fact that he couldn't
1:09:51say it, nor could the authorities
1:09:53protect him for saying it, and the fear
1:09:55that he had from his drivers, but also
1:09:56the justification from the drivers, "Oh,
1:09:59they're they're asking for it." Um And
1:10:02those are the my only two observations.
1:10:03I mean, I just don't understand that
1:10:04culture enough to be able to say how how
1:10:06you could
1:10:07I mean, as as a father of two daughters,
1:10:09you know, how how can you get yourself
1:10:11into that sick position?
1:10:13You know. Uh
1:10:15I have students, you know, who now 18 to
1:10:1721, 25. And you [clears throat] just see
1:10:19them as daughters and children, you
1:10:21know, you just don't So, I can't get
1:10:22into that head, I'm afraid, to be able
1:10:24to answer that question.
1:10:25>> Well, what what it does raise is the
1:10:26issue we've been tiptoeing around this
1:10:28entire time, uh which is
1:10:31the big debate that I outlined at the
1:10:34beginning, and it's
1:10:36raging in the Muslim world as much as in
1:10:38in Europe and and increasingly United
1:10:40States, which is
1:10:42is there a difference between Islam and
1:10:45Islamism? And you've laid out the case
1:10:48that the difference is vast, actually,
1:10:50and that the overwhelming majority of
1:10:51Muslims don't subscribe to this view.
1:10:53There's been huge battles, and, you
1:10:55know, uh one of the things people always
1:10:57say, uh kind of from a woke perspective,
1:10:59is well, it's not a Muslim problem cuz
1:11:02look, most of the victims of Islamic
1:11:03terrorism are Muslim. And you explain
1:11:05why, because they're actually resisting
1:11:07this ideology.
1:11:08>> There are also other people who will
1:11:10say, well, Gad Saad is a good example,
1:11:13for example. He's former guest of the
1:11:14show and he's a very smart man.
1:11:16Who will say,
1:11:18well, was And I think Douglas, who you
1:11:21you referred to as a former friend, I
1:11:22hope I hope that relationship isn't
1:11:24entirely severed, but you know, won't
1:11:26get into that.
1:11:27Who will say, well,
1:11:29was Muhammad
1:11:32an Islamist or was he a moderate Muslim?
1:11:34You know, he he was a warlord, he took
1:11:36slaves, he he married the the wives of
1:11:39the people that he killed, etc. And so,
1:11:43is someone following his example and
1:11:46some of the
1:11:48the verses in the Quran that advocate
1:11:51for violence, that advocate for these
1:11:52things, is he a true Muslim? Or is he
1:11:56perverting the the faith of Islam? And
1:11:59that seems to me the really central part
1:12:02of this discussion, because obviously,
1:12:05if you take that view, then in a country
1:12:08with a large Muslim population,
1:12:11what do you do? Likewise, if you take
1:12:13the view that you're advocating for,
1:12:14then the it it it immediately creates a
1:12:18whole different set of policy
1:12:19prescriptions. So, what do you say to
1:12:21people who say, well, someone who
1:12:23follows the example and the words of the
1:12:25Prophet Muhammad is not going to end up
1:12:26in your position, they're going to end
1:12:27up in the Muslim Brotherhood position.
1:12:29>> Yeah. Um that's that's a great question
1:12:32and if I may take the liberty of saying
1:12:33next time we meet, you know, I should
1:12:35have a book out on this very subject.
1:12:37>> Look forward to it.
1:12:37>> Because it it my my next book is focused
1:12:40on the life of the prophet and and
1:12:42tackling these very very important and
1:12:44consequential questions that you put
1:12:46forth. So, allow us to leave the the the
1:12:49the details of tackling this head on.
1:12:50I'm not shying away from it because I
1:12:52think it's very very important and we've
1:12:54got to understand that in its time, in
1:12:56its context, and make our own decisions.
1:12:59But I say this, there's nothing that all
1:13:01of the the the scholarly references I
1:13:04gave you with the Sheikh
1:13:06Muhammad bin Abdul Karim al-Issa or
1:13:07Sheikh bin Bayyah or Sheikh Muhammad bin
1:13:09Zayed of the UAE or Sheikh Abdullah bin
1:13:12Zayed of the UAE who's pioneered in in
1:13:15recent years
1:13:16this this debate in in diplomatic and
1:13:20public intellectual circles or indeed
1:13:22you know the Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad
1:13:24bin Salman. Notice how they're all
1:13:25called Muhammad.
1:13:26>> [laughter]
1:13:27>> And you know, I go by Ed but that's
1:13:29short for Muhammad, too.
1:13:31So, I like to think that all of us and
1:13:34most Muslims around the world
1:13:36our life and my defense of classical
1:13:39liberalism and pluralism is motivated
1:13:41entirely by the life of the Prophet
1:13:42Muhammad. There's nothing I say or I
1:13:44believe or I do takes away from my
1:13:47allegiance to understanding him and his
1:13:50loyalty to understanding Moses, Jesus,
1:13:52and so on.
1:13:53But again as I say we should discuss
1:13:55this at greater depth and greater detail
1:13:57once the next book comes out which is
1:13:59focused on this crux.
1:14:01>> Um and we will but can you can you give
1:14:03us a little bit here because
1:14:06I mean like I say the the Prophet
1:14:09Muhammad
1:14:10was a warlord. Is that fair?
1:14:13>> I I I take issue with the term. I I
1:14:15think he was fighting defensive wars. I
1:14:18think you know the the he
1:14:21he took the Jesus approach for
1:14:2510 years of his life in Mecca. He was
1:14:27persecuted, his followers were killed,
1:14:29he was tortured, his family members were
1:14:31expelled into Abyssinia and he didn't
1:14:33respond. And then he moved to Medina.
1:14:36Again, he's not violent and then there
1:14:39are the tribes in Mecca and there are
1:14:42there are 14 major Jewish tribes of
1:14:44which two Jewish tribes turn against
1:14:45him, ally themselves with the pagans of
1:14:47Mecca, and they mount an attack
1:14:50and attempt to assassinate him, to kill
1:14:52him. And by then he'd survived 12
1:14:54different assassination attempts. So,
1:14:56forgive me if I justify the fact that he
1:14:58then said, "We're going to fight back."
1:15:00>> Mhm.
1:15:01>> You know, after years of not fighting
1:15:02back, we're not a passive people. If
1:15:05we're attacked, we fight back, and that
1:15:06was his response. He said, "We will
1:15:07fight back." And when he fights back, he
1:15:09warns his people, "Don't poison a well.
1:15:12Don't kill women. Don't kill children.
1:15:15Don't take down palm trees. Um fight
1:15:19those who fight you." And that's a verse
1:15:20in the Quran, you know, "Uqtulu hum
1:15:22haithuma thaqiftumuhum." Fight them
1:15:23wherever you find them attacking you.
1:15:25Don't attack innocents. So, there are
1:15:27rules of engagement. So, I I just don't
1:15:30think calling him a warlord or Gad
1:15:32Saad's argument are actually, you know,
1:15:34fully reflective of the truth. And for
1:15:36people like Gad Saad, I'd say that these
1:15:38are people who don't take their Judaism
1:15:40or their Shabbat seriously. They have a
1:15:42problem with their Judaism, and I think
1:15:43there's some projection going on there
1:15:45that, you know, Judaism, Zionism, you
1:15:48know, Jewishness, Shabbat, it's all the
1:15:49same. So, we'll just apply this
1:15:52mangled, mixed-up approach to other
1:15:54faiths and say,
1:15:55"They're just behaving like Moses, and
1:15:57they're just wrong." I just I disagree
1:15:59with that worldview, and it's going to
1:16:00get complicated, and we might have a
1:16:01very big disagreement on this issue, but
1:16:03I think we've got to dig We've got to
1:16:05We've got to discuss this. So, every
1:16:07condition that the Prophet Muhammad gave
1:16:10for whether it's fighting or whether
1:16:11it's marrying, and I I, you know, I also
1:16:14don't think he married Aisha, and she
1:16:16wasn't seven, she wasn't nine. The
1:16:18evidence suggests that she was much
1:16:20older, and I go through all of this, and
1:16:22I'm researching this as we as we speak.
1:16:24So, I just don't think
1:16:25that um those caricatures against the
1:16:28prophet, and and therefore, by
1:16:30extension, saying 2 billion Muslims are
1:16:32somehow supporters of
1:16:35that kind of figure who is described in
1:16:37the Quran as "Rahmatan lil alamin," as
1:16:39mercy unto mankind.
1:16:41Um he got I mean, his wife is Jewish.
1:16:43Safiya, one of his wives, is Jewish.
1:16:46So, he has a son called Ibrahim, named
1:16:48after Abraham.
1:16:49Um, and so, there are hundreds of
1:16:51examples to the contrary.
1:16:53Um, so
1:16:54you don't have to agree with me, but you
1:16:55can say that there is another
1:16:56interpretation, and then there is
1:16:57another way of being. And I think that's
1:16:59hard to refute. Um, and for people like
1:17:01Gad Saad and Douglas Murray, if they
1:17:03want to conflate Islam and Islamism,
1:17:05that's their prerogative.
1:17:07But
1:17:08and in the free world, they're able to
1:17:10do that. But, the danger in that is you
1:17:12end up making 2 billion innocent Muslims
1:17:14your enemies. We make the threat much
1:17:16bigger than it actually is. And we take
1:17:18on 57 Muslim nation-states and say,
1:17:21"You're all part of the problem."
1:17:23Whereas, as we discussed during this
1:17:24conversation, it's actually the Emiratis
1:17:27and others who are the spearhead to
1:17:29saying
1:17:30the West has a problem with the Muslim
1:17:31Brotherhood, and we've got to deal with
1:17:33the problem for what it is. Islamism,
1:17:36Muslim Brotherhood ideology from
1:17:37al-Qaeda to Hamas and the Brotherhood
1:17:39included, and not ordinary Muslims that
1:17:42include
1:17:44uh, you know, you take your pick of
1:17:46ordinary Muslims. I don't know. Nadia
1:17:48Hussain,
1:17:49the household baker, to
1:17:52um, prominent football players, Mo
1:17:55>> Salah.
1:17:55>> Mo Mo Salah, yeah. And and others. I
1:17:57just think, you know, it's up to us to
1:17:59be sensible about this.
1:18:00>> Yeah, I think it's really important. And
1:18:02I'm only asking this question for the
1:18:04same reason that you articulated
1:18:05earlier, which is we have to be true
1:18:06about what's true. All right? And I'm
1:18:09putting to you I I am very much actually
1:18:11on your side. I I grew up in Uzbekistan
1:18:14for part of my life. I'm from you know,
1:18:15Soviet Muslim countries are a little bit
1:18:17different, but you know, you go there
1:18:19and you see that extremism isn't
1:18:21tolerated there.
1:18:22And so, they don't have a problem. Now,
1:18:24they I mean, the advantage a lot of
1:18:26Muslim countries have is they are
1:18:27authoritarian regimes. So, they can be
1:18:29pretty hardline about things like
1:18:31freedom of speech. For example, they
1:18:32don't have freedom of speech. If you
1:18:33want to preach extremism in a mosque,
1:18:36you're not going to be allowed to do
1:18:37that. But we've tried democracy in Gaza,
1:18:40in Iran,
1:18:41>> Yeah.
1:18:42>> um Tunisia,
1:18:44>> Yeah.
1:18:44>> uh even in Kuwait, the result was always
1:18:46the Muslim Brotherhood. And that's why I
1:18:47think countries such as the UAE and
1:18:49others that
1:18:51I A I wouldn't classify as
1:18:52authoritarian, but B that want to open
1:18:54up their countries more to a classically
1:18:56liberal place, want to see the Muslim
1:18:58Brotherhood problem gone. Germany could
1:19:00not hold its elections for as long as
1:19:02there was an active Nazi party. That
1:19:04party had to be banned. And now we have
1:19:06free and fair elections in Germany. I
1:19:08think the same applies. We've got to
1:19:10remove the Muslim Brotherhood threat,
1:19:11which is being encouraged in the West,
1:19:13and they then say to Arab and Muslim
1:19:15countries, "Well, why don't you have
1:19:16elections and why don't you have the
1:19:17same
1:19:18>> I'm not saying the UAE needs to become a
1:19:19democracy tomorrow. Uh
1:19:21what I'm saying is that this issue is
1:19:25easier to deal with
1:19:26>> Correct.
1:19:26>> in a non-democratic country. But the
1:19:29problem for us in the West is we now
1:19:31have a significant population of
1:19:33Islamists.
1:19:34>> Yes.
1:19:35>> And we are democracies.
1:19:37>> Yes.
1:19:37>> And that makes us uniquely vulnerable to
1:19:40this problem because we cannot take the
1:19:42by our standards fairly drastic measures
1:19:45that
1:19:46uh seem to be required to deal with this
1:19:49problem. Do you see what I'm saying?
1:19:50>> I do and I don't. I do in European
1:19:52countries and I think it's I I agree
1:19:54it's going to be tough, but if we don't
1:19:56deal with it now, it's going to be
1:19:57tougher.
1:19:58>> Or right, impossible some might say.
1:20:00>> Yeah, if it's impossible then Europe's
1:20:02finished.
1:20:02>> Yes.
1:20:03>> And to save Europe, you've got to deal
1:20:04with this.
1:20:05Um and I don't agree with you because I
1:20:08I see here in the US a greater
1:20:10willingness to address this problem.
1:20:12Whatever misgivings we may have have
1:20:14about the Trump administration, it's
1:20:15actively gone out, studied the problems,
1:20:18consulted experts, and identified the
1:20:20Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist
1:20:21organization now in multiple
1:20:23jurisdictions.
1:20:24Um in Sudan and elsewhere, but it will
1:20:27also target the Muslim Brotherhood and
1:20:28its operations in Texas and in Florida,
1:20:31and it may move to other parts of the
1:20:32country. So, what what's the difference
1:20:34between the US and the UAE or sorry, the
1:20:36US and the UK is is one of political
1:20:39will.
1:20:39>> No.
1:20:40>> Go ahead.
1:20:41>> Uh it's population
1:20:42>> number size. Yeah.
1:20:44>> amount of land, the types of Muslims
1:20:47that you have here are different. You
1:20:49have a much more middle-class Muslim
1:20:51>> Right. I can agree with all that. Sure.
1:20:53>> And
1:20:54>> Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
1:20:55>> all these things really really matter.
1:20:57And even so, as we sit here recording
1:21:00this this episode will go out sometime
1:21:02after we recorded. In the time that
1:21:04we've been here on this trip, there've
1:21:05been a significant number of Islamist
1:21:08terrorist attacks in the United States.
1:21:10They're not being covered by the
1:21:12national media in the way that I
1:21:13certainly think they should be.
1:21:15But the the point I'm trying to make to
1:21:17you is you have a much better
1:21:19environment for dealing with this issue,
1:21:20and nonetheless, you have a giant
1:21:22problem, and it will grow.
1:21:24>> Mhm.
1:21:25It may not Oh, I hope it won't grow.
1:21:28>> Well, why wouldn't it grow?
1:21:29>> Because I think to part of your point,
1:21:31American Muslims are much more
1:21:32integrated. They're much more patriotic.
1:21:35It's easier to be loyal to the
1:21:36constitution. I mean, in the UK, what
1:21:39are we supposed to be loyal to?
1:21:40>> Yes, this is a huge
1:21:41>> There is the Englishness problem, which
1:21:42you write about in your book. You know,
1:21:45so so so there is this
1:21:47you know,
1:21:48how do you become English?
1:21:49>> We are British, right? Anyway, I mean
1:21:52>> You've dealt with this, right? The
1:21:53Englishness versus Britishness debate
1:21:54that keeps coming up. Whereas here, it's
1:21:56actually easier, you know? So so that I
1:21:58think is a massive bonus on this side of
1:22:00this country. Um I also think and I and
1:22:03I say this as someone who loves England,
1:22:05um I just think there's a cynicism
1:22:07>> Yeah.
1:22:07>> in the in the UK when it comes to
1:22:10liberty or freedom or defense of the
1:22:11realm or the greatness of British
1:22:14history or the or the potential for what
1:22:16the country can become again. And you
1:22:18see that written all over Keir Starmer's
1:22:20face, right? He's just he's just never
1:22:21quite sure as to what to say, and he
1:22:23looks like like a rabbit caught in the
1:22:24headlights constantly. That doesn't
1:22:26exist here. There's an openness
1:22:29and uh
1:22:30you know, so
1:22:32I [clears throat] don't want to give you
1:22:34know, examples of individuals who have
1:22:35talked about this, but but the point is
1:22:36that there is an optimism and an
1:22:37openness and a willingness to accept
1:22:40others. You know,
1:22:41for those of us who are English speakers
1:22:42by birth, we're at home here. You know,
1:22:45I hope you both feel like that when
1:22:46you're on the streets of New York or
1:22:47further afield. In a way we we just
1:22:49don't in the parts of our own country
1:22:51because of this cynicism and division.
1:22:54So I just think the US isn't
1:22:59Let's not name him, but a prominent UK
1:23:02left-leaning media commentator came to
1:23:05America too.
1:23:06And he went to pray at
1:23:11the houses of Congress and while he was
1:23:14on Friday prayers he met
1:23:16American Muslims who are in the CIA and
1:23:18who are in the Pentagon.
1:23:20And as a leftist person born and raised
1:23:22in the UK, he just couldn't make sense
1:23:24of that. How how how is it you're in the
1:23:25CIA and you're in the Pentagon?
1:23:28You serve this country and how could you
1:23:30be Muslim because for this leftist guy
1:23:32from England being Muslim was a
1:23:34political identity that I've got to be
1:23:36anti-American and I've got to fight
1:23:38American soldiers and I can't possibly
1:23:39be in the CIA because that's my arch
1:23:41enemy. But hundreds of Muslims are in
1:23:44the CIA and thousands serve the armed
1:23:46forces here. And I think that's the
1:23:48success story and you know, thousands
1:23:50are in the FBI and elsewhere which which
1:23:51we just don't have in the UK to be able
1:23:53to point to.
1:23:55And I think the Americans you know, the
1:23:57non-establishment religion cause makes
1:23:59it the Islamist project just doesn't
1:24:01take off because you're never going to
1:24:02establish your Islamism in this country.
1:24:04They just don't want religion
1:24:06at state level. They want it at
1:24:07individual level.
1:24:09And I also think to your point Americans
1:24:12are stronger in dealing with this. You
1:24:14know,
1:24:15they will kill you.
1:24:17They will take out guns. They will fight
1:24:18you. In a way that I just think in
1:24:20England we're
1:24:22much more reluctant.
1:24:24>> So,
1:24:25here's the question.
1:24:26Let's say Keir Starmer calls you up
1:24:28tomorrow and goes, "Ed,
1:24:30I want you to be the Tsar to tackle this
1:24:33problem."
1:24:34What policies would you implement that
1:24:36would actually help deal with this?
1:24:38Real world solutions.
1:24:41>> Okay, firstly, Keir Starmer won't do
1:24:42that, but
1:24:43>> [laughter]
1:24:43>> It's a thought experiment.
1:24:45>> We're in the realm of fantasy.
1:24:46>> Yeah.
1:24:47>> You're allowed three dragons to deal
1:24:49with problems [laughter] as well.
1:24:51>> But but but
1:24:52to return to the realm of reality where
1:24:54the problem is growing, you know, if
1:24:56we're looking at three three issues,
1:24:58then the first would be to map the
1:25:00mosques
1:25:02because on current trajectories about
1:25:0420% of Britain's mosques are controlled
1:25:06by Islamists.
1:25:07If we're defining Islamists, as I did
1:25:09now, kind of based on the
1:25:13their interpretation of Sharia and their
1:25:15definition for a state and their
1:25:16separatism, 20% of mosques, so so you
1:25:20map the mosques and you remove the
1:25:21leadership, you confiscate the property,
1:25:23you put in place from other mosques that
1:25:25are much more moderate control of those
1:25:27mosques, which sends a serious signal to
1:25:30Muslims in the UK, as happened in
1:25:32Germany, as happened in Austria, so we
1:25:33have precedent that just because you're
1:25:36a charitable organization doesn't mean
1:25:38we can't confiscate property because
1:25:40it's advocating Nazism, Jew hatred,
1:25:43removal of the British government, and
1:25:45supporting terrorism abroad, right? So,
1:25:47that that should not be complicated.
1:25:48That's the first thing we should be
1:25:49doing. The mosques. Secondly, there are
1:25:5250% of of the existing mosques that
1:25:56support blasphemy laws. In other words,
1:25:58you can't insult the Prophet Muhammad in
1:26:00the way that you just asked me a
1:26:01question, you know, I might have had an
1:26:03internal reaction that was uncomfortable
1:26:05because that's not how I see my prophet,
1:26:07but you're free
1:26:08and at total liberty to ask that
1:26:10question however you wish to, and I'm at
1:26:12liberty to defend it, you know? Um and
1:26:15that's that's the limit, right? That you
1:26:17know, you can't ask for my killing, I
1:26:19can't ask for your killing. Um, that's
1:26:21the liberal consensus that we have, but
1:26:23in 50% of the mosques there is this
1:26:25attitude of you can't insult the
1:26:26prophet. If we do, we will kill you. And
1:26:28that's why this teacher in Batley's
1:26:30under hiding. Those mosques, whether we
1:26:32impose higher taxes or whether remove
1:26:34the imams or whether we prosecute the
1:26:37leaders of those mosques have got to be
1:26:39um, uh,
1:26:40confronted as though this is not the
1:26:41attitude in 50% of our mosques in the UK
1:26:44that we will tolerate. Um, and and this
1:26:47these are not Islamist mosques, but this
1:26:48is a wider creeping problem that also
1:26:50leads to terrorism. And if And if I said
1:26:52this in the UK, I would have physical
1:26:53attacks on my well-being for just even
1:26:55highlighting this threat because I'd be
1:26:57betraying community secrets, but my
1:26:59interest is in the country and in
1:27:00civilizations and not in small um,
1:27:03I I And the third and the final one is
1:27:05which we've been touching on repeatedly
1:27:07is that Muslim Brotherhood offshoots,
1:27:11banks, there are two banks associated
1:27:13with them, not major banks but small
1:27:14localized banks, um, charity
1:27:16organizations, schools, um, television
1:27:20platforms, individuals have all got to
1:27:22be identified, prosecuted, shut down,
1:27:26banned, their bank accounts suspended,
1:27:28um,
1:27:29their charitable status removed, you
1:27:31know, make life hard enough so that a
1:27:35younger And it's this is going to take
1:27:3610 to 15 years. The younger Muslims see
1:27:39that is not our pathway. You know, we
1:27:41don't want to be on the receiving end of
1:27:44being up against our own country, our
1:27:46own civilization, the lands that have
1:27:47given us birth and protected us. Right
1:27:50now, if you're a Muslim Brotherhood
1:27:51ideologue and if you're in those
1:27:52categories of the mosque leaders that I
1:27:54mentioned, you're a hero. You're
1:27:56organizing weekly protests.
1:27:59You're part of a global network. You
1:28:01have a message against America, a
1:28:02message against Israel, a message
1:28:03against your own government. And guess
1:28:05what? You've got the far left with you
1:28:08on the protests every weekend.
1:28:10You're not paying a price.
1:28:12And as long as those sectors are not
1:28:14paying a price, the problem continues to
1:28:15increase.
1:28:17>> Ed, it's been an absolute pleasure
1:28:19having you on the show. Thank you so
1:28:20much. This has been a really important
1:28:22conversation.
1:28:23Final question is always the same.
1:28:25What's the one thing that we're not
1:28:26talking about that we really should be?
1:28:29>> The I In you know, in my head I've been
1:28:32thinking about this just because I've
1:28:33been reading lots of Nietzsche and his
1:28:35point on willpower, having the political
1:28:37will. Um Nietzsche touches on this.
1:28:39Hegel's obsessed with this and the
1:28:41Germans try to
1:28:43identify but we in the kind of
1:28:46more empirical way of looking at the
1:28:47world don't, which is understanding the
1:28:49spirit,
1:28:50understanding souls. And why is there a
1:28:53Why is there a spirit-led impulse to
1:28:55this arrogance? Why is Why is there a
1:28:57spirit that says we must be superior, we
1:28:59must be better, we must confront? Um and
1:29:02why is there a spirit or a temperament
1:29:03that's much more conciliatory, that much
1:29:05that's much more peaceful, which I think
1:29:07was the prophet's spirit, which is much
1:29:09more given to coexistence versus So,
1:29:11that's that part, call it psychology,
1:29:13call it the psyche, you know, we don't
1:29:16touch on because we just don't we know
1:29:18we're not comfortable discussing it and
1:29:19there's no way of us measuring it, so we
1:29:21don't go there. But I think behind
1:29:23everything we're discussing is a certain
1:29:25spirit of how are we to be, is a certain
1:29:28psyche. And I see this in Arabia, you
1:29:30know, with uh some of the shura of the
1:29:33the the the leaders of the of the
1:29:35Arabian countries, you see that that
1:29:37they're they're not just looking at you
1:29:39as an individual, they're actually
1:29:40assessing your psychological state of
1:29:43being and they're able to x-ray us as
1:29:46individuals and what's going on in our
1:29:47minds at
1:29:50in a way that when we talk to one one
1:29:51another we don't. We're kind of judging
1:29:53each other by what we're saying
1:29:55and what we're doing rather than what
1:29:56we're feeling and what we're being. I
1:29:58think that's something we don't talk
1:29:59about often. How do we elevate our sense
1:30:01of
1:30:02um
1:30:03Um the closest I think is empathy. And
1:30:06it's a weak closest, but
1:30:08it's an attempt to answering your tough
1:30:09question, Francis.
1:30:10>> Ed, it's been an absolute pleasure. Make
1:30:13sure to join us on Substack where we
1:30:15carry on the conversation and you get to
1:30:17ask Ed your questions.
1:30:19>> [music]
1:30:20>> Do you think that the Muslim Brotherhood
1:30:21has already infiltrated government?
1:30:23>> Without doubt. Two Two [music]
1:30:24individuals come to my mind right now.
1:30:26>> And how do you know that that they're
1:30:27connected to the Muslim Brotherhood?
1:30:29>> Because the [music] the the two
1:30:30individuals I'm referencing, I knew them
1:30:32when I was with the Muslim Brotherhood.
1:30:34>> Wow.

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