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What valuable lessons can HR gain from the creative industry? — Transcript

by LACE Partners · 5,263 words · 745 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00welcome to the HR on the offensive
0:01podcast brought to you by lace
0:04[Music]
0:21parners good morning good afternoon and
0:23good evening and welcome to the latest
0:25HR on the offensive podcast it's me
0:28Chris Howard joining you as I like to do
0:30and always do every Thursday that we
0:33release our podcast today's podcast is
0:36an interesting one got a CPO from the
0:38creative industry in to talk to myself
0:40and my wonderful co-host which I will
0:43introduce I'll introduce our guests
0:44first but let's do the co-hosting first
0:46Debbie you all right hi Chris Howard I'm
0:49all right oh you went full names there I
0:51went full names I've gone a formal today
0:54all right okay well don't go too formal
0:55because you know we like to have a bit
0:56of fun on this podcast fun yeah a bit
0:59forc fun which I'm going to drop on you
1:01guys both in the fundamentally different
1:02question in a minute though but um just
1:04as a bit of a framing exercise we ran a
1:06campaign last year actually called the
1:07employee experience Revolution you can
1:09check it out on the lace partners
1:11website in the Insight section under the
1:13campaign if you want to but in it there
1:16was one podcast where we got a chief
1:18marketing officer along to talk a little
1:19bit around you know what are the types
1:21of traits or things that HR
1:24professionals can be learning from
1:26marketing people we've also done some
1:27stuff around finance and you know
1:29there's always ways in which you can
1:31take the best bits from certain
1:33functions and apply them to your own
1:34role and so today's guest we had a we
1:37had a pre-con conversation about this
1:39but I thought it was quite interesting
1:41to talk about the creative industry
1:42because it is a an interesting and a
1:44dynamic industry but we still wanted to
1:46get a HR person on and to do that I'm
1:48going to introduce her now after my
1:50Waffle it's uh elain Grill who is the
1:52chief people officer of Ogie Elaine how
1:54are you doing welcome to the Pod oh
1:56thank you very much doing really well
1:57thank you yeah it's lovely to have you
1:59on now I'm going to hit you both you and
2:01Debbie with the fundamentally different
2:02question but before we do that let's do
2:04some intros so can you tell our fabulous
2:06listeners just a little bit about
2:07yourself and then maybe a little bit
2:09about
2:10Ogie yeah sure so I'm as you said the
2:13chief people officer for Ogie for our
2:16imia region which is Europe Middle East
2:18and Africa I've actually spent most of
2:20my career in travel hospitality and
2:22Leisure I did a number of years at
2:24British Airways I then went to
2:26Intercontinental Hotel Group and then
2:28after working for two Global very mature
2:31businesses I went to lead the people
2:33function for a scaleup which was uh all
2:36things fun and Scrappy and um a real
2:39contrast to the type of career I'd had
2:42previously and then when it was time to
2:45move on from there I was really looking
2:47for something that would be a blend of
2:48the two and ogal V fits that it's a
2:51business that's very very people focused
2:54which coming from travel hospitality and
2:56Leisure is also about people and
2:58experiences so it is a nice transition
3:01into a new
3:02industry um ogl itself is a Founder Le
3:06agency it's a global agency and is LED
3:09or founded I should say by David Ogie 75
3:12years ago in Amia we operate over 25
3:17Consolidated markets we've got just
3:19under 5,000 employees in various
3:22locations and ogleby it's a marketing
3:26Communications business that has five
3:28businesses within it so we advertising
3:30PR and influence Consulting health and
3:34also our ogal V1 proposition which is
3:37all about technology and relationship
3:39building and our ambition it's a big
3:42ambition and it will be being a
3:43marketing agency is to impact our
3:46clients and PE is to inspire Our Brands
3:49to impact our people and the world and
3:53the way we do that is through something
3:54called borderless creativity where we
3:56say doesn't matter where the talent is
3:59as long as the Talent meets the
4:00capability or the skill when the two of
4:03those things come together that's where
4:04the magic occurs and then that's where
4:06we can really create impact and value
4:08for our clients and we are a creative
4:11Network and we're very proud to be um
4:13named as can's Lions network of the year
4:16it's a huge Accolade for us really proud
4:18of that that's lovely and this is where
4:20I'm quite I'm really excited to get into
4:23the detail of this in working because
4:25you've just described working in very
4:27fast-paced Industries but whether it's
4:29the travel Leisure side but also I guess
4:30scale up as well very fast pace I love
4:33that borderless creativity piece we're
4:34going to get into that we're going to
4:36delve into kind of some of the
4:38flexibility and bits that it gets onto
4:39that I'll probably let Debbie go with
4:40the first question but I get to ask my
4:42fundamentally different one first so
4:45we're an article on the BBC website
4:46Debbie I we'll let Elaine give her a few
4:49seconds to think about this but um I'm
4:51going to hit you with it first so on the
4:52BBC website there is an article that
4:54talks about a man who poor man lost his
4:57emotional support alligator was stolen
5:00from him it was returned so the story
5:02was happily ever after but just to kick
5:04us off with our fundamentally different
5:05question if you could have an emotional
5:06support animal what would it be thanks
5:09for that that's a nice easy one to kick
5:12us off with I mean for those who have
5:13seen me before on video calls and on HR
5:16on the offensive live they'll know that
5:18in the corner of my office is a crow
5:21often mistaken as a tuen or some other
5:23kind of penguin item but it is a crow
5:26and uh obviously named Cheryl and I I
5:29always have Cheryl with me so she's
5:32always there in the background looking
5:33out for me she was originally bought by
5:35an ex-boyfriend a long time ago who
5:38thought that she was a tuken and bought
5:40her as a tuken of his affection for me
5:42so I think probably Cheryl my Crow is
5:44going to be my support animal just don't
5:46tell my husband I love that also I love
5:49the cheesy joke well I suspect that's
5:51probably why that boyfriend was no more
5:53quite quite soon afterwards but Elaine
5:56well go on what's your emotional support
5:57animal before we kick off to the serious
5:59stuff
6:01I think it would be an owl because
6:03they're very wise aren't they and you
6:06know quite often when things come to me
6:09it's because they're difficult or
6:10complex and it's something that needs
6:13escalating so it's often also things
6:16that are confidential so you can't just
6:18talk to any and anybody and there's just
6:20something about an owl that makes me
6:21feel that they might just keep all my
6:23secrets but they'll also have some very
6:25wise counsel for me which I can then
6:28pretend with my own wise Council and I
6:30then give it to someone else and as
6:32yours is Cheryl the crow maybe I'd call
6:33man oie the owl maybe that work I can as
6:38well I can stroke it FEA just yours is a
6:40much more sensible response than mine so
6:43very credible elain thank you for
6:44bringing some sense into the
6:46conversation so I just want to come back
6:48on some bits you said in your
6:50introduction Elaine because it was it
6:51kind of just Rings a lot of bells in my
6:53in my brain to find out more around this
6:55kind of borderless creativity so could
6:57you just talk to us a little bit more
6:58about what that means but also how does
7:01that present itself what would I what
7:03would I see an experience that would
7:04kind of play into that I think the main
7:08thing is it's not setting limits on your
7:10thoughts on any ideas that you may have
7:13how you may go about solving those ideas
7:17where you may be inspired or stimulated
7:20with your thinking it's not putting any
7:23constraints around you at all and it
7:26really delves into the power of working
7:29with other people so where can you
7:31really collaborate with each other to
7:33get the best of another person's
7:35thinking their ideas their challenge
7:38without feeling that you've got to think
7:40of it all on your own or it's just the
7:42team that you work within who else might
7:44there be in other teams other
7:46disciplines other markets that may be
7:48able to help you and solve the problem
7:50that you're working on or come up come
7:53up with a way to make your idea even
7:54better and even greater than what it was
7:57when you started I mean it's really
7:59interesting and it's I can see how that
8:01would really kind of foster that
8:02creativity I wonder what that means in
8:04terms of things like your policies your
8:06processes cuz those can sometimes be the
8:09things that constrain people right that
8:11we're you know we want to be creative
8:12but we got to get the sign off or we
8:14want to be creative or we want to do
8:15things differently but we've got to go
8:17through sort of different permissions or
8:19fill out the form and how does that kind
8:21of play out for
8:22you yeah and I have been in this
8:25industry now it's coming up to two and a
8:27half years so it's been a lot of
8:28learning for me and that there is a lot
8:30of flexibility within the business and
8:33you have to be very agile in the way in
8:34which you respond so as you know leading
8:37people processes and practices it's
8:40really thinking about where do you need
8:42to have things that are non-negotiables
8:44and have to be done in a certain way and
8:46where are the things where you can have
8:48more freedom and flexibility even if
8:50there's a framework where where do you
8:51give that freedom so some things like
8:54non-negotiables are the things that are
8:56really needed to engage your people
9:00retain them keep them connected to the
9:01business so we have a process called our
9:04careers conversations process so things
9:08like setting clear goals non-negotiable
9:11right we want everybody to do that it's
9:13important that people know what they're
9:14working on why they're working on it and
9:16feel like they're making a contribution
9:18regular check-ins non-negotiable talk to
9:21your people see how they're doing where
9:23do they need support what are they doing
9:25well where do they need
9:26celebrating and really trying to
9:29understand who you have in your team and
9:31with that structure in place then all
9:34the things around it can be much Freer
9:36with how you get things done yeah I
9:38really really love that funny enough
9:40Kathy acoplo our CEO and I were having a
9:43conversation we did a live stream at the
9:44time of recording we did a live stream
9:46this morning sort of our time all the
9:48listeners obviously will have to go back
9:49into the archives to see it and we we
9:51were talking about hush hybrid which is
9:53another buzzword which has come out and
9:55this idea that you've got managers that
9:56are kind of just doing hybrid but not NE
9:59necessarily always sticking to policies
10:01and and structure and there's a real
10:04balance that needs to be struck between
10:06this idea of kind of you've got to
10:08enforce the policies but you also you
10:10need to do that you need to have
10:11structure within that business but then
10:13still being able to get that creativity
10:14which I really love the question I
10:16wanted to ask you was more around types
10:18of individuals that are successful in
10:20the creative industry and is there any
10:22kind of if I was to ask you kind of
10:24about leadership styles and your
10:26experiences are there any types of
10:28individuals that tend to work really
10:30really well within the creative industry
10:32that you come across that you can just
10:33see yeah that person is perfect
10:36culturally for the way that we operate
10:38as a business but also the industry as
10:39well yeah I think what's really
10:41important to me is the diversity of the
10:43teams that you have and the diversity of
10:45the leadership that you have when I
10:47think about leaders and the role that
10:50they play which I think is fundamental
10:53to the success of any team the
10:56leadership style that works really well
10:58is one where leaders have a lot of
11:01curiosity about the people in their
11:03teams who they are what motivates them
11:06what drives them what are the things
11:09that may prove more difficult for them
11:11where do they need adjustments so that
11:13they can be their best just what's going
11:15on with them like what's going on with
11:16them at work what might be happening out
11:17of work just so you've got a better
11:19picture of the total human being of who
11:22you're working with and then that
11:24Curiosity as well is how does that play
11:26outside of the office environment so how
11:29are you really curious about what's
11:31going on in the world what's going on in
11:33culture how is society developing and as
11:36a marketing agency clients come to us
11:39because they expect us to be ahead of
11:40the curve with Trends and new ways of
11:43doing things you can't really do that
11:45unless you yourself are putting yourself
11:47out there and continuously learning and
11:49learning agility is super super
11:51important and then also from a leader
11:54empathy so these are really like
11:56inclusive leadership skills really that
11:58I think work really well here but being
12:01empathetic to the ways you know how
12:03people feel being more in tune with
12:06their behaviors their actions what that
12:08might mean for how productive and how
12:11happy and engaging they can be at work
12:13and how you can be empathetic to people
12:16with different viewpoints to you can you
12:20encourage really robust healthy debates
12:23and dialogues because that's how good
12:25ideas generate by really going there and
12:29Ching each other at unpicking things not
12:31taking things at face value how do you
12:33really encourage that debate and one of
12:36the things we've worked on a lot
12:38particularly across our imia region is
12:40something which we called our connected
12:41culture for creativity and we looked at
12:44what what makes culture what makes
12:46culture across our region what are the
12:47things that are most important and we
12:50were really Keen to recognize the role
12:52of the leader but also recognize the
12:54role that we all play because I'm a real
12:56believer that culture is built by
12:58everybody it's not a top down or a
13:00bottom up thing it's something that we
13:02all contribute to and build so we
13:05focused on what does it mean from a
13:06leadership perspective how we lead does
13:09it mean for the workplace environment
13:11how do we make sure it's fun it's
13:13engaging we looked at how we collaborate
13:15with each other how we can connect
13:17people from different communities where
13:19they may not normally have that natural
13:21connection made how we connect with
13:24society and then how do we make sure
13:26that we can really build diverse teams
13:28so so it's multifaceted I guess is what
13:31yeah it's interesting Asain because you
13:33there's a few things you allude to in
13:35that where the experience you want to
13:38create for your employees mirrors the
13:40experience you need to create for your
13:42clients so you know when you talk about
13:44curiosity when you talk about empathy
13:46when you talk about diversity so it's
13:48kind of that playback of what's
13:50Happening internally that can then
13:52reflect externally and we see that sort
13:54of as a bit of a rising Trend with some
13:55of our clients that we work with is kind
13:57of making sure that mirror
13:59is clear because if you are not curious
14:02at work to your point will you be
14:03curious to your with with your clients
14:05to your clients so I think that's an
14:07interesting kind of take on it and we
14:09sort of see that and exploring it but
14:10the other the other thing that we sort
14:12of are exploring at the moment is around
14:14people management people leadership kind
14:16of capability and and how to really
14:19bring the best people leaders into that
14:22kind of role so I'm a bit I'm quite
14:23interested in you talked about some of
14:25the qualities but how how do you find
14:27those people how do you access that and
14:29how do you sort of measure and and and
14:32assess that to bring the right people
14:34into those leadership roles internally
14:36or
14:37externally yeah I think it's spending
14:39enough time with them when you're
14:40looking for people whether it's through
14:42a formal interview process whether it's
14:44at a networking event it might be
14:46somebody you're talking to then you
14:47might not have an opportunity then but
14:48you'll remember them for something later
14:51it's recommendations from the people
14:53that you work with people you've worked
14:55with before and it's about talking about
14:57the things that are important to us and
14:59and seeing how it resonates with that
15:00other person do they contribute to that
15:02notion do they disagree with it which is
15:04fine too like just what is their point
15:07of view and what I've found probably
15:11most challenging in trying to find
15:13leaders of this type is where they're
15:15quite comfortable in operating in spaces
15:19that might feel uncomfortable because
15:22you know as lead does the more senior
15:24you get the more you're expected to know
15:26everything so you expect people to be
15:27able to come to you with an answer you
15:29can answer but we're increasingly in
15:32positions where we don't know the answer
15:34and we may have a point of view that
15:36actually differs to the point of view
15:37from the person that we're talking to or
15:39the people within our team we've been
15:41doing some work with our leaders to help
15:42them navigate some of that you know how
15:45do they Center themselves how do they
15:47really know who they are what they stand
15:49for what they're comfortable with how do
15:52they accept the areas where they're less
15:55comfortable and then how do they find
15:57strategies to help them navigate through
15:59that but I think it's a constant
16:00constant process and what's really
16:03interesting about that is what we're
16:04exploring is how TR you know the
16:07traditional leadership training I'm
16:08doing those annoying air quotes for for
16:10the listeners at home that that
16:12traditional kind of pump people through
16:13a a management training program and
16:15they'll come out the other side as
16:16brilliant leaders and actually what
16:18we're trying to understand a bit more is
16:21what actually are the kind of skills or
16:23capabilities or behaviors that they need
16:24so it's interesting to hear you talk
16:26about some really different things right
16:28it's not you know how to do a
16:30disciplinary process it's not it's not
16:31even having powerful conversations which
16:34is kind of the next level up but it's a
16:35level up from that around you know
16:37leading in ambiguity is kind of what I
16:40think you're describing and and
16:41understanding where you play in that I
16:43mean the world is a challenging place
16:46for us all you know we hear all the
16:48stats it's you know it's fast moving
16:50it's ever evolving it all sounds really
16:52you know sexy and you know the world
16:55it's so exciting but when you're in the
16:57middle of it and you feel it and then as
16:59a leader you've also got to be able to
17:02give direction and guidance and coaching
17:04to others it does put a lot of pressure
17:08on you because not only do you have to
17:09be technically competent in whatever
17:12field you lead in but you also have to
17:14be very emotionally competent as well
17:18and you may find that for many leaders
17:20that's not necessarily the area that
17:22they've proactively invested in
17:24themselves in the past few years and
17:26what about just sort of generationally
17:28what kind of differences do you see
17:30through your organization in terms of
17:31some of the different Generations I mean
17:33I hesitate to talk about them sometimes
17:35because they're such sweeping
17:36generalizations but equally there are
17:38there are some quite big differences
17:39across the board do you see that and
17:41does that play into how you sort of
17:43people plan or how you manage or engage
17:45your people yeah there are definitely
17:48differences there are also similarities
17:50across the generations so you're right
17:53we have to be wary of not generalizing
17:55whole Generations per se because at the
17:57root of it we are all individuals and
18:00what we are finding is that the younger
18:03Generations are more open generally in
18:07saying what they want what they need
18:10they are less tolerant of waiting for
18:13things to change if they don't see
18:15change quick enough and that can vary
18:17for each person then they will
18:20potentially walk and go somewhere else
18:23but when I look across imir and I was
18:25just looking at the sort of demographics
18:27across our region it was really
18:29fascinated to me to see how the
18:30generations are playing out in different
18:32markets so in the UK for example you
18:34know we've got a lot of Millennials but
18:36across other than that it's quite even
18:38numbers between younger people people at
18:41the more experienced end of their career
18:45versus some of our countries where like
18:48some of our African countries for
18:49example nearly 50% of the demographic in
18:53that country is younger than 25 and then
18:56you think wow that's a whole different
18:58way of looking at things so I love
19:01difference because to me that's what's
19:03exciting and makes keeps me energized
19:05with my role but I'm always conscious as
19:08well of thinking okay there's a lot of
19:10difference but also where are the
19:11commonalities and they're the things
19:13that we have to get right for everyone
19:14if you get it right for everyone or even
19:16if you just look at a core group of
19:18people if you get it right for them the
19:20halo effect is immense but likewise if
19:24you get it wrong the halo effect is very
19:26very detrimental from an impactful way
19:29as well a negative impact you were just
19:32talking there about those commonalities
19:34and Debbie obviously asked the questions
19:35about the generational stuff but I'm
19:37interested to get your view from an
19:39industry perspective what differences
19:41have you kind of noticed in terms of
19:43leadership styles in the creative
19:45industry perhaps compared to you
19:47mentioned travel Leisure scale up is
19:49there any kind of bits that you've been
19:50able to pluck out that you've been able
19:51to say yeah that is a commonality that
19:53seems to exist amongst creative people
19:55you know it's really interesting you
19:56think about the creative agency that we
19:59have here as I said we've got lots of
20:01different businesses and we've also got
20:03lots of disciplines within that so yes
20:06we've got creatives as you might think
20:08of a traditional creative but we've also
20:10got HL we've got Finance we've got
20:11account managers you know we've got
20:13production people so there's a whole set
20:15of different job roles within the agency
20:18but what you do find is that most people
20:20that work here have some kind of passion
20:22for creativity in some shape or form so
20:24even though their day job might not be
20:26as a creative in their spare time they
20:29may have some quite creative Hobbies or
20:31enjoy creative social outings activities
20:34and that sort of thing so they're the
20:36sorts of things that kind of pull you in
20:39I think one of the differences for the
20:41younger generation is they can see a
20:43vision and the creative output like all
20:46the creatives can but how they get there
20:48might be
20:50different so some of the traditional
20:53creative may have been trained and
20:55learned their discipline in a certain
20:56way by following a certain process for
20:58example example and that process has
21:00been super successful for them they've
21:03won awards clients are very comfortable
21:05with that because it's what they know
21:07but then you get not just younger people
21:09coming in but people coming in from
21:11different creative disciplines because
21:14we've been trying to find creative
21:15talent that may not just come through
21:17the traditional route that approach
21:19things differently so they may see the
21:22end result but how they get there may be
21:25different so they may want to just try
21:27and test and fail fast and try again in
21:31a different way to what maybe some of
21:33our traditional creatives may do because
21:35they know there's a client there as well
21:37that might not necessarily have the same
21:39sort of tolerance for that try test fail
21:42everybody wants the great creative
21:44output at the end but how we get there I
21:47think is a real interesting space for us
21:49to unpack a bit further and start to
21:51work out how do we really get the both
21:54of the traditional ways of doing things
21:56with this modern almost Fearless way of
22:00doing things and that trust must be
22:01critical Elaine right that I'm in an
22:03environment where it's okay to not get
22:05it right first time yes that's right and
22:08I think you know really talking to
22:11people building the teams showing people
22:14that their ideas are valid giving
22:17regular feedback constructive feedback
22:20really recognizing ideas coming from
22:22anywhere is really important to that
22:24trust and because creativity is such a
22:29passion for many people here is how do
22:31you help them to really use their
22:33creativity in ways that sometimes may
22:35not be the traditional way for the job
22:38that they're doing but there may be
22:40other projects that are happening across
22:41the agency that they can get involved in
22:44I've got a horrible feeling Chris is
22:45going to tell us to be quiet in a minute
22:47and try and close up so I want to get
22:48this question in as soon as I can before
22:50he does that I'm really interested to
22:52know we work with lots of clients our
22:54listeners represent a huge range of um
22:57hopefully a huge anyway range of
22:59different types of industry and I'm just
23:00wondering what do you think of the I
23:03don't know one or two little nuggets
23:05that that we should all take away from
23:07how the creative industry is operating
23:10what do you think is is really key for
23:12us to to think about doing differently
23:14in perhaps more traditional
23:17businesses I think be brave just because
23:19somebody has a different way of doing
23:22things or they come from a background
23:25that might be a little bit different to
23:27the way in which you're used to if that
23:30individual gets your business is
23:32interested in what you're doing wants to
23:34make an impact wants to make you bigger
23:37and greater and has really good learning
23:40agility open he's curious go for it
23:42what's the worst that can happen and
23:45then I think the second thing which
23:46we're which we're learning a lot here
23:48too is when you bring those people in
23:50that might be a bit different how do you
23:52nurture them so that when they come in
23:54they don't get organ rejection by the
23:56rest of the traditional business as they
23:58they come in because you you you've
24:00spotted something in them you want to do
24:02something that nurtures that and
24:04encourages it and helps it to bloom so
24:06that you can get more people who are
24:08also different into your team so be
24:10braver and then when you're brave really
24:12think about how you can nurture that
24:13talent I really really love that and we
24:15do have I've got another I'm going to
24:17extend it in my a couple of minutes just
24:18so I can ask my question because Ela
24:20when we were speaking previously and
24:21this links actually to what you were
24:23just talking about like people are
24:24different but actually embracing that
24:26difference embracing diversity is quite
24:29an important bit and we had a
24:30conversation when we were uh prepping
24:32for this podcast just about passions to
24:34you and you obviously talked about the
24:35diversity side to just to close us out
24:37some thoughts around how you drive
24:39greater diversity in the creative
24:40industry because as we spoke about I
24:43know this is a passion of
24:44yours yeah it's very much of kind of
24:47what I was saying is is looking to
24:48different disciplines and and being
24:51braver about it you have to look harder
24:54you know some of the people that may
24:56have found it difficult to flourish in a
24:59corporate environment previously may be
25:01doing really well on their own so you've
25:04got to think about well what are you
25:05offering them too you know you can see
25:08why they'd be great to come and work
25:09with you and your teams and help kind of
25:12bring us into the future or or keep up
25:15to date with modern Trends but also
25:17think about what you can offer them and
25:19sometimes some of that more formal
25:21structure and discipline and learning
25:25can also be really helpful for them even
25:27if they decide that maybe their career
25:29with you is three four years you know
25:31rather than a lifetime you can actually
25:33do something to contribute to helping
25:35them grow as an individual which will
25:38then help them to really unleash their
25:40creativity whether it's with you or
25:42somebody else in the future always do
25:45what you can small acts make big impacts
25:48you might not receive all the big
25:50impacts but you'll will receive
25:52something yeah absolutely love that and
25:54what a wonderful way for us to uh just
25:56come to the end of today's podcast elae
25:59this has been amazing I've really really
26:00enjoyed the conversation around kind of
26:03those differences around the creative
26:05industry but also commonalities
26:07similarities um just getting a bit of
26:08your experience from your previous roles
26:11as well and kind of this idea of like
26:13how do you drive leadership within your
26:15industry really really fascinating thank
26:17you very much for coming on thank you
26:19thanks for having me that's been great
26:20to have you Debbie thank you very much
26:22as always my co-host in crime thank you
26:24very much thank you very much thank you
26:25Al it's been great of course you can get
26:27this podcast wherever you get this
26:28podcast we are on all the major channels
26:30you can also find out our back catalog
26:32if you go to lace partners. co.uk
26:35podcast you can find out all of that or
26:36if you go to our Insight section we
26:38write blogs white papers and a whole
26:40variety of different HR topics if this
26:42is not the first time that you've heard
26:44this though you will have already know
26:46that because I say this at the end of
26:47every podcast but from myself from
26:51Elaine and from Debbie thank you very
26:53much for listening and hopefully we'll
26:54catch you next time on the HR on the
26:57offensive podcast
26:58bye-bye
27:00[Music]

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