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What To Do When Your Husband Won't Tell You What's Bothering Him | Dr. Warren Farrell | EP 194 — Transcript

by Tammy Peterson · 15,135 words · 2,176 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:05[music] Hello everyone. Welcome to my
0:07podcast. Thank you for tuning in. I have
0:10a guest here today that uh everyone is
0:13going to learn things from. We're going
0:15to have a good conversation and
0:16hopefully you can take this back into
0:19your lives and make it better. So my
0:22guest is uh Dr. Warren Frell.
0:26And Dr. Frell
0:29has been chosen by the Financial Times
0:31of London as one of the world's top 100
0:34thought leaders. And that must have
0:36happened this year, did it?
0:38>> Oh, no. Um,
0:39>> when did that happen?
0:40>> About 25 years ago.
0:42>> And what brought that on?
0:43>> Um, I wrote a book called The Myth of
0:45Male Power and they reviewed that and
0:49felt it was
0:52>> very, very significant. Yes.
0:53>> Yes. We're going to get into some of
0:54these. His books are published in 19
0:57languages. Uh they include the New York
1:00Times bestseller why men are the way
1:02they are and the international
1:04bestseller the myth of male power. He
1:07previously served on the board of
1:08directors of the national organization
1:11for women in New York City. Dr. Frell's
1:14the boy crisis in 2018 was instrumental
1:17in launching the current concern for
1:20boys issues. The most recent book 2024
1:24is Rollmate to Soulmate: The Seven
1:28Secrets of Lifong Love. So, it looks
1:32like you've gone through looking at
1:35women seriously and their predicaments,
1:38whatever they might be, and then
1:40recognizing boys predicaments and
1:43whatever they might be. And then also
1:45recognizing
1:47the state that we're in now with a high
1:51rate of divorce, with a low rate of
1:54marriage, with a lot of single mothers
1:58raising their childrens and what that
2:00means and how to negotiate that. So,
2:03welcome to my podcast.
2:04>> Thank you. That was very well summarized
2:06indeed.
2:07>> Ah, no, no problem. I'm really looking
2:10forward to this. We've met at the Ark a
2:12couple of times and we've been wanting
2:14to speak together. So, I'm really
2:17excited that you're here.
2:18>> Me, too, Tammy. [snorts]
2:19>> Uh, so let's let's start with the um
2:24the time that you spent with the
2:27National Organization for Women in New
2:29York City. What was the moment or the
2:31question that first started pulling you
2:34away from that identity? Well, I I think
2:37maybe the um if I may start with um what
2:40pulled me toward that identity, if I may
2:42have both those things.
2:43>> Yes. Um I had a mother that um when I
2:46was going to graduate school who said,
2:48you know, I wish I had gone to college.
2:50I gave up going to college because I
2:52wanted to have decent she came from a
2:55very poor family. I wanted to have
2:57decent clothes. I wanted to be able to
2:58attract a husband and so on. but she was
3:01very bright and um she gave up a
3:03scholarship to Cornell to be able to do
3:06the you know the what I just said and
3:08she regretted it and um and then I my
3:11sister um was often times interested in
3:15a boy at school um different boys at
3:18school and there was no permission in
3:21those years um to for a girl um or young
3:24woman to take initiatives um that she
3:27had to wait and that that seemed um
3:30dysfunctional for everybody because
3:32every guy I knew um you know feared
3:34being rejected um by girls. Um and um
3:38and I feared being rejected by girls for
3:40sure. Um and yet um it would have been
3:43wonderful at least once in a while to
3:45have a you know a girl woman be able to
3:47ask us out um and to get over some of
3:50that fear. And so when the women's woman
3:53came and then it also made sense to me
3:56that you know why you know that many
3:59women um are interested in being in
4:03careers um and many are not. Um so why
4:06not have the women that are interested
4:08be able to do so and why be have all
4:11these um you know the the boys clubs and
4:13things like that to sort of make women
4:16feel like they weren't welcome and or
4:18they were out of place or that type of
4:20thing. It just seemed we it seemed to me
4:22that from the very beginning that we
4:24needed to make use of everybody's best
4:27talents and everybody's desires and so
4:30why limit men or women in either
4:32direction. So I always saw myself when I
4:34was involved with the National
4:35Organization for Women in New York City
4:38as being involved in part of a gender
4:40liberation movement freeing both sexes
4:42from the rigid roles of the past toward
4:44more flexible roles for our future. Mhm.
4:46>> And I felt that um historically
4:48speaking, we were privileged to be able
4:50to do this because u historically
4:52speaking, every society was focused on
4:55the need to survive. And for the need to
4:57survive, it paid it made sense for women
5:00to play a role and men to play a role.
5:02Um women maybe raising children inside
5:05the home. There was no birth control, so
5:06you had many children. And um that was a
5:09full-time job plus some um and men being
5:12able to, you know, work outside, risk
5:14their lives in war and so on. and the
5:16rigid roles of the past, you know, that
5:17made sense. But when people became able
5:20to survive in the in wealthier countries
5:22in the middle and upper middle class, it
5:24made sense for them to be able to have
5:25the freedom to be able to do what they
5:27wanted as human beings rather than have
5:29to do what they want, what they were
5:31supposed to do as human doings. And so I
5:34started to so the feminist movement made
5:36sense to me. Um and people um like you
5:40know Gloria Steinum and Betty Ferdan um
5:42were saying things that I that I agreed
5:45with. Um except that uh and then and
5:48then I got involved with the National
5:49Organization for Women in New York City
5:52was speaking all over the world on
5:53women's issues. But I was beginning to
5:55see that um I remember t talking in
5:58Japan um and the and a woman came up to
6:02me afterwards and she said I'm I'm a
6:03teacher and I noticed that the boys in
6:06my class are having more problems than
6:08the girls. Australia the same thing.
6:11Canada the same thing. And I began as I
6:13saw that accumulating saying we have to
6:15pay attention to the problem of boys and
6:17men as well. And um and that and so I
6:20started and then I also now the National
6:23Organization for Women in New York City
6:25was thinking about kicking men out
6:27because um during once a month they had
6:30something called consciousness raising
6:32groups uh for women and the uh and of
6:36the men involved in now they would often
6:39join these groups but it would inhibit
6:42the women from really speaking about
6:43what was really bothering them about
6:45their divorce or whatever and and then
6:47the women would often get the men would
6:49often give well-meaning advice um but
6:51that often felt like condescension to
6:53the women and it wasn't helpful and so
6:56um and so they had this big debate about
6:59whether men should be allowed in now and
7:01the solution was ask Warren Ferrell to
7:04start men's groups um at the same time
7:06as the women's groups are running and so
7:08we'll get the men out of the women's
7:10hair and Warren really I was doing my
7:13doctor dissertation on the women's
7:15movement and he really knows a lot about
7:16it so he can explain to these feminist
7:18men even how to be even better male
7:21feminists. And so that worked very very
7:26well. But it worked so well that I began
7:29to un that when I learned to shut my
7:32mouth and stop lecturing the men and
7:35start listening to the men and asking
7:37them about what's your dream in life and
7:40what's have you been able to fulfill it
7:42or not.
7:43The men would say to me, "Well, you
7:45know, my dream was, for example, to be
7:47an elementary school teacher, but when
7:50my children were when our first child
7:53was born, um, I couldn't we didn't have
7:56enough. We lived in a poor comm
7:57relatively poor community. We couldn't
7:59afford a really great home. I wanted to
8:01live in a a better community with better
8:03schools for my kids. So, I gave up being
8:06an elementary school teacher and became
8:08a a principal and then ultimately a
8:11superintendent of schools." And
8:12everybody in the group said, "Oh,
8:13wonderful." And he said, "No, it was
8:16terrible. I love kids. I thrive with
8:18kids. They love me. I feel like God when
8:21I'm around kids. I just uh the
8:23connection is wonderful." That was my
8:25heart. And when I and being a principal
8:28or a superintendent of schools, you got
8:30petty parents, petty teachers, petty
8:32administrators. Everybody's fighting
8:34everybody. I hate administration. I love
8:38kids. So we in the group said, "Well,
8:40why then did you give up being, you
8:42know, a teacher?" And he they said,
8:43"Because I just didn't earn enough
8:45money." Um, I earn maybe twice as much
8:47as a superintendent of schools now that
8:50has allowed us to move into a better
8:52school district and have opportunities
8:54for my daughter and now my son as well
8:56that I would have never had um without
8:59doing this. So one of the people in the
9:01group said, "So you really gave up your
9:04passion so your children and your wife
9:07could have options that you didn't
9:08have?" And and they said, "Yeah, I guess
9:11you could put it that way." And I
9:13started seeing man after man after man
9:16in these men's groups doing this. And I
9:18started forming men's groups and women's
9:20groups all around the world. Um
9:22especially in the United States. This
9:24was in the day of paper and pen. um
9:26where I'd have every woman in the
9:28audience who wanted to get involved in a
9:30women's group signing on a pad and then
9:32I'd meet with the women and the men
9:33afterwards and train them how to run a
9:35group. Um and so that led to u my
9:38understanding men much better. So I
9:41started incorporating these
9:42understandings of men in my talks and my
9:45my standing ovations started to
9:47disappear and my recommendations for
9:50additional speaking engagements started
9:52to disappear. And I realized very
9:55quickly that if I started incorporating
9:58men's and boys issues, I was going to
10:00lose pretty much all my fame and all my
10:03income or a lot of it. And I just but
10:07then I sort of asked myself, what do I
10:08really want to do in life? Do I want to
10:10do something that is just sort of saying
10:12something that will get me money and
10:15income uh money and defame or do I
10:18really want to do something that I think
10:19will move the world forward and then I
10:22chose to risk the latter if you by this
10:24time I was getting my PhD so I figured I
10:26could always teach in college if I you
10:29know failed out of this process.
10:31>> Wow that's quite a an evolution. That's
10:35quite an evolution. So, you mentioned
10:37Gloria Steinum. We should uh just talk
10:40about her for
10:42>> a minute. Maybe have Well, I don't know
10:44when this podcast will come out, but she
10:47uh she died just recently. Two days ago.
10:50>> Two days ago.
10:51>> Two days ago. And so, um
10:55the
10:57living to dying to going to heaven is
11:00what's happening right now, right now.
11:03So, I'd like to just have everyone
11:07have a a moment
11:09to reflect on her work and what she was
11:13striving to do to bring better
11:15understanding to the world. We're none
11:17of us are perfect, but she had the
11:20intent, I'm sure, to try to find better
11:24understanding in the world. And so at
11:26this point, um, we could pray for her to
11:34go to heaven,
11:36to be held in God's hands, and um,
11:42have everlasting life up there and look
11:44down on us and help us on our way
11:48in Jesus' name. Amen.
11:51Interestingly,
11:53you, Gloria, and Jordan have something
11:56in common.
11:57>> Oh, yeah.
11:58>> You're all well-known people who were
12:01great listeners and used your fame to
12:06facilitate other people being heard. U
12:10many many people as you know who are
12:12famous are famous in part because their
12:15ego is pretty strong. And part of that
12:18is when they get a chance to be the
12:21center of attention and they always are.
12:24They talk about themselves but and the
12:27people around them get the benefit of
12:30being able to say to somebody I met this
12:33person who was famous like Gloria Urf of
12:35Jordan. Um but they don't have a chance
12:38to feel heard by them. Um, Gloria was
12:41one of the people, one of the people as
12:43are you um when we spend time together
12:47at the ARC and as I've seen Jordan um in
12:51our board meetings um whenever anyone
12:54approaches you um or Jordan, they're
12:57always um filled with, you know, being
13:01enamored of you. Um but you always bring
13:04out something in them and hear them. And
13:07to me, that's one of the greatest things
13:09I can say about anybody. And Gloria had
13:12that very much. Um,
13:14>> well, thank you, Warren. And I would say
13:16that I've learned that in the latter
13:18part of my life.
13:19>> Uh, I was a massage therapist, so I was
13:22trained to listen.
13:23>> Mhm.
13:24>> That which was very very helpful. Mhm.
13:26>> And I think was gave me guidance in this
13:30season of my life where I'm sitting here
13:34>> rather than being um a conduit for
13:39feeling. Now I'm a conduit for uh
13:42listening.
13:43>> Yes.
13:43>> And for bringing out what hopefully will
13:46be helpful to other people
13:48>> in in what all the knowledge that you
13:50know and all of the experiences that
13:52you've been through. So, um, here we go.
13:57>> Yes. Well, that said,
13:58>> yes.
13:59>> Um, that was the good news about Gloria.
14:01>> Yeah.
14:01>> Um, the the tough news was that she
14:05really believed we live in a patriarchal
14:08world in which men um have made rules to
14:12benefit men at the expense of women.
14:14>> Yeah.
14:15>> And um I would try to talk her through
14:18that and explain why that wasn't
14:21accurate. And um she never was able to
14:26even modify slightly that perspective.
14:30>> And so politically we ended up going
14:33very different ways. And um and after
14:37you know um one time we were on a TV
14:39show together and I mentioned that um
14:42she said that men are in a dollar for
14:43each 76 cents that women earn for the
14:45same work. And I was in the middle of
14:47writing a book called Why Men Earn More
14:49and What Women Can Do About It. And from
14:51my perspective, I I had identified 25
14:55areas in which men and women behave
14:58differently in relation to the workplace
15:00and families and found that um and I
15:03felt that those 25 areas were really
15:05helpful for women to know because if
15:07they did want to earn more money, here
15:10were 25 very specific things they could
15:12do to earn more. And but each of those
15:15things were a tradeoff. Um that is um
15:19you could earn more money by working
15:20more hours. Um you could earn more money
15:23by working in hazardous jobs. You could
15:26earn more money by doing a lot of things
15:28that most people don't want to do. But
15:30that the um but so when I started to say
15:34this on the TV show, Gloria just looked
15:36at the producer and went like that.
15:39>> Oh.
15:39>> And the producer cut to a quote
15:42supposedly to a commercial
15:44>> that was never aired.
15:47And I went from being a good friend of
15:49Gloria's to I she wouldn't talk to me
15:52anymore.
15:53>> So I even um went to Toys R Us and sent
15:56her a phone um but a toy phone saying
16:00maybe the phone that I'm calling you on
16:02doesn't work [laughter]
16:04create a little humor. Yeah. No
16:06response. And so it wasn't until a
16:09couple of decades later that she and I
16:11had a relatively good conversation. But
16:14she but her stubbornness now this is in
16:17contrast to Betty Ferdan
16:19>> who treated human beings terribly u but
16:22she wrote a book um called the second
16:24stage in which she said that unless we
16:28pay attention to men's and boys issues
16:31as a second stage of this um gender
16:34liberation um we will not the feminist
16:37movement will become more negative than
16:40positive and not make enough progress
16:42and so she had a much better
16:45understanding of where we needed to go.
16:47Um, but um was not nearly as good to
16:50other human beings as Gloria was.
16:54>> She may have been maybe a disagreeable
16:56woman, possibly.
16:57>> That would be an understatement.
16:59[laughter]
17:03>> Very funny. for the few people who don't
17:05know who you are because there won't be
17:07very many I don't think uh and who have
17:09never read your books how would you
17:11explain in plain terms what you mean by
17:14the boy crisis
17:16>> uh when I started studying the boy
17:19crisis I started looking at uh the
17:21problems that boys were having and the
17:23and the and I had 10
17:26causes or correlation strong
17:28correlations that I was going to
17:30identify um so the first the boy crisis
17:34um it's boys are falling very far behind
17:37in school. Most many people now know
17:39that um that part of the boy crisis
17:42seems to have made some progress and
17:45people understanding that. Plus the data
17:47is so clear boys are far more likely
17:49than girls to drop out of high school.
17:51They're about a third less likely now to
17:54go to college and to graduate from
17:55college. Um they are much more likely to
17:59commit suicide. They're much more likely
18:01to die of every single death of despair.
18:05They're much more likely to say that
18:06they're very lonely. Um they are likely
18:09to feel that they are rejected by girls
18:12and therefore they're afraid to ask
18:14girls out. Um and that that's probably
18:17um a good assessment if because if a if
18:20a boy is not very good at postpone
18:23gratification, he usually doesn't
18:25succeed. if he doesn't succeed, very few
18:27um girls and women are interested in
18:30boys that are not successful.
18:31>> Um and when a woman wants to marry, she
18:34usually doesn't go around to
18:36unemployment lines and look for a future
18:38husband. And she doesn't usually search
18:39her neighbor's family's basement for
18:42[laughter] for a guy living there. Um
18:45and so she may date a good-looking guy
18:47in the somebody's family basement, but
18:49not marry him. And so women still marry
18:52up. Um but even when they earn a lot and
18:55could um marry a man who's a more of a
18:58nurturer, connector rather than a
18:59provider protector. Um but they don't do
19:02that very they just do that very rarely.
19:04And so this has left a really ma u so
19:07this is one of 55 major areas that boys
19:12are suffering in. And all of those areas
19:14are documented in the in the boy crisis.
19:17But what I started looking at was what's
19:20what are the highest correlations as to
19:22why boys become this way and I found
19:25that um well you know on the one hand
19:29mothers single moms are extremely
19:31hardworking and many people who have
19:34been um the brought up by single moms
19:37like Presidents Clinton and Obama have
19:39been successful. However, among
19:42unsuccessful boys, um there is a huge
19:47propensity for those boys to not have
19:50had um to for those boys to be what I
19:54call dad deprived. I never use the word
19:57fatherlessness because every child has a
19:59father. But to be deprived of your
20:02father in one way or the other has an
20:05impact that I had no idea was as strong.
20:08It is the single biggest predictor of
20:10males committing suicide
20:12>> and prison and prison
20:14>> and prison populations. Yes. I ran some
20:16years ago for governor of California
20:18against Schwarzenegger and I spoke
20:20around at a number of prison populations
20:22and I started asking them um
20:24[clears throat] how many of you had
20:25involved fathers as you grew up. Usually
20:28about four or five% raised their hand.
20:30And I said well maybe some of you
20:31weren't listening to me. So I'd repeat
20:33that and maybe some of you are shy so
20:35I'd ask the question in reverse and it
20:38ended up being that um even accounting
20:40for the non-listing people um it was
20:42about 85 to 92 93% of the people in
20:47prison um had were dad deprived um I had
20:51uh and then I started sharing with them
20:54you know why dads were so important that
20:57dads for example and moms when dads and
20:59moms are uh supervising children uh dads
21:03will set bedtimes later than moms. So
21:07you'll think so we would think that you
21:08know that means that dads are more
21:10lenient than moms. But the the studies
21:13showed that the children actually got to
21:16bed sooner under dad's supervision than
21:18they did under mom's supervision. Why?
21:21Because when children uh so both moms
21:24and dads set boundaries, moms set
21:28boundaries even tighter than the dads
21:30did. But the children got to bed earlier
21:33with the dads. So something was
21:35happening with boundary enforcement.
21:38>> And so as the study looks at this, we
21:41found that the for example the children
21:43would come to mom at say 8:30 um bedtime
21:46was and say you know oh u and mom would
21:50say bedtime and the and the the daughter
21:53might say uh well mom I you know I don't
21:56have my homework finished. And mom will
21:58say well you spent an hour and a half on
21:59the phone with your girlfriend. and you
22:00could have got you done less than that
22:02and done your homework during that time
22:04and but on the other hand I don't want
22:06you to go to school without having done
22:07your homework so okay um and then the
22:10kid would stay up later and with the dad
22:13the kid the the father was far more
22:15likely to say uh you know I told you to
22:17get off the video games um or the
22:21um sooner you didn't do that you made
22:24that choice so now you're going to
22:25school without doing your homework
22:27>> right
22:27>> done
22:29>> um oh dad you're so Mom would never do
22:31that. She'd let me do that. I did the
22:32same thing the other day with mom and
22:34she said I could do that. So what does
22:36the child learn? The child learns that
22:38it number one it can manipulate mom
22:41better than it can manipulate dad. Does
22:44that lead to the child respecting mom?
22:47Obviously not. Anyone we could
22:49manipulate we don't usually respect. Um,
22:52and so the dad has uh gotten to be more
22:57respected and but more importantly the
22:59child has learned that it has to do what
23:02it wants to do second and what it has to
23:06do first. That's the core to postpone
23:10gratification.
23:12Postpone gratification is the single
23:15biggest predictor of success or failure
23:18in life.
23:20So the enforcement of boundaries is so
23:23crucial. Dads are more likely to enforce
23:26boundaries, but moms are confused as to
23:29why dads can get away with enforcing
23:32boundaries without um alienating the
23:35children.
23:36>> One of the reasons for that is dads are
23:39far more likely to bond with the kids by
23:42doing things like roughousing and
23:43teasing and um camping with the child.
23:46the roughousing creates a bond and then
23:48you know the father says okay now it's
23:50time to do this and you don't want to
23:52lose that bond because you've been
23:54laughing and playing and that type of
23:55thing and so the combination of the bond
23:57that dads tend to do through things like
23:59roughousing or camping or you know or
24:02letting the child take more risks um but
24:04also being careful to be with the child
24:07while the risks are being taken. Uh
24:09these are all things that lead to the
24:11child bonding and therefore being
24:13willing to go along um with the enforced
24:16boundaries without developing an angry
24:19pattern with the parent.
24:21>> Even with little tiny kids that are just
24:24being
24:26maybe they're in play school or maybe
24:29they're still at home. That
24:34negotiation between mothers and fathers,
24:36it starts right back there. Yes.
24:39>> Because that's where the kids will say,
24:40"Oh, but I I need to pee.
24:42>> I need to pee." Or, "I don't want to be
24:44alone or um kick and scream and just
24:48say, "I want my mommy. I want my mommy.
24:51[clears throat] I'm not going to sleep
24:52without my mommy." So, these little kids
24:54also have they start then and they see,
24:56can I do this with my mom or can I do
24:59this with my dad?
24:59>> Yes.
25:00>> Yeah.
25:01>> You are the studies show that you are
25:03exactly right about that. Mhm.
25:06>> And it's and and so now let's look at
25:09this from the woman's perspective. You
25:10know, it's the moms are not wanting
25:14their children to cry. They're not
25:16wanting they're wanting to care for
25:18them. They're, you know, they're about
25:20love, but they don't oftenimes
25:22understand that real love requires that
25:26child to sort of be able to cry and not
25:29use the crying to get what she or he
25:31wants, but to get what is good for them
25:33in the long run. And my f fathers were
25:36my father was a lot like this. And you
25:39know when I'd say to him, you know, I
25:41the other kids at school can do this. He
25:42said, I want you to have opport I want
25:45you to have discipline that will allow
25:47you to be more successful than the other
25:49students.
25:50>> And that was helpful because, you know,
25:51I realized that it was
25:53>> it was being done in a positive way,
25:56positive purpose.
25:58>> Yeah.
25:59I had a father. He was around. I don't
26:03ever remember him at bedtime.
26:06I don't ever remember
26:08uh a lot of
26:11He expected me to be very independent
26:13and to find my own way. So there weren't
26:18there weren't obvious boundaries.
26:20>> Mhm. They're more like existential
26:22boundaries where he would say as a
26:25teenager, you can go out tonight, but
26:28I'm depending on you to come home and to
26:31come home safe and that's up to you. So,
26:34he would put the responsibility on me
26:36and then let me go.
26:37>> Wow, that is really advanced.
26:40>> Yeah, that's really advanced, right?
26:41>> Especially for those years.
26:42>> And it was pretty advanced for me at
26:44like 14 or something, right? It was a
26:46little too young.
26:47>> So, but I was the last child maybe. And
26:49maybe it was different for the older
26:51siblings. Maybe they were older when
26:53that happened. And it happened to me
26:54when I was younger. So, it was quite
26:56challenging.
26:57>> Did you feel you were too young for
26:58that?
26:58>> Oh, yeah.
26:59>> Uh-huh.
27:00>> Yeah. I mean, and I did I'd sit by the
27:02driver on the way home and hold on to
27:03the steering wheel if I thought he was
27:04going to go off the road.
27:06>> That was the kind of responsibility I
27:08felt I
27:09>> had to take on. And um you know I would
27:13have really and I I desired to have my
27:16father's attention much more than I had
27:19it even though he was home all the time.
27:22So this isn't just in families where
27:25women have no husbands. This is in
27:27families that have mother and father but
27:30knowing that they both have roles.
27:32>> Yes.
27:32>> To do with the children and the raising
27:35of children and that it's really
27:37important. Mhm.
27:38>> I hated the TV and the phone cuz that's
27:40where my dad would go before he would be
27:42with me.
27:43>> Wow.
27:44>> Right. And um
27:46>> I bet we can all think back on ways that
27:49we
27:51wanted to love our dads and didn't want
27:52to hate our dads so we would hate
27:54something else instead.
27:56>> Yeah.
27:57>> Kids are really something. They'll they
27:59want attention no matter what.
28:01>> Yes. This is why I use the term dad
28:04deprived
28:05>> because you can have a father that and
28:07not have a father. Um, and it's more
28:10likely that you will have a father and
28:12not have a father than you will have a
28:13mother and not have a mother. If you
28:15know the um, right?
28:16>> And but it's so important for dads to
28:19understand exactly what you said that
28:21the children want dad's attention and
28:23they want and they want dad's
28:25boundaries. Um, and they and they also
28:28want time to be able to talk through
28:30those things with the dad. How did that
28:32date go? How how did that time out go
28:35for you? What was happening on your way
28:38back? Oh, you're holding the steering
28:40wheel. Why are you doing that? Because
28:41you said, Dad, that it was my
28:43responsibility to get home safely. I
28:45didn't want to not get home safely. Oh,
28:47okay, sweetie. Let's talk that through.
28:49Do you need to hold the steering wheel?
28:51Um, here's how to interpret that
28:53differently. Um, but in order to be able
28:55to have that conversation, dad has to
28:58ask questions. Dad has to listen. That's
29:01what I mean by dad um not being dad
29:03deprived but being instead dad enriched.
29:08>> It's second a second big thing comes up
29:09here too which is that um there's mom
29:13style parenting that I mentioned a few
29:14minutes ago and dad style parenting and
29:17dad style parenting is far more likely
29:19to be open to the child taking risks.
29:21What I talk about in the boy crisis book
29:24is how to develop what I would call um
29:28checks and balance parenting. Um so an
29:31example um say the mom the child says to
29:34mom um can I climb on the tree in the
29:37backyard? Um yeah um and the mom goes no
29:41sweetie you're too young and the tree is
29:43too dangerous and you could hurt
29:44yourself. You could fall out of the
29:46tree. So the child not willing to take
29:48that answer goes to dad and goes, "Dad,
29:50can I try, you know, climb climb the
29:52tree?" "Well, sweetie, that's probably a
29:54big tree and it's a little dangerous,
29:55but be so be really careful when you're
29:57out there." So the child's climbing the
29:59tree and mom says, "I just told you you
30:01couldn't climb the tree." And well, dad
30:03said I could. Um, and so checks and
30:06balance parenting would be something
30:08like this. The mom says, you know, dad,
30:11you know, I told you Jane that she
30:13couldn't climb the tree. Um, and now
30:16she's doing that. Um, and she could fall
30:19and hurt herself and kill kill herself.
30:21She's too young to do that. And dad
30:23says, "Well, it's important to be able
30:25to take uh to to be able to take risks
30:28and to be able to figure out which risks
30:30are going to be dangerous and which
30:32risks aren't. Um and so I and you also
30:36if the dad has you know read something
30:39like the boy crisis and looks at knows
30:41the research what he's also going to be
30:43able to say is taking risks actually
30:45increases your IQ people that you know
30:48climb trees and takes like that because
30:50when you take risk you're you're con
30:52constantly figuring out um is this what
30:55I need to do or is that what I need to
30:56do and your brain needs to sort of
30:58operate safety risk fun that type of
31:01thing. You you're developing your brain.
31:03So let's say the father um says says
31:07that you know I want my our children to
31:09be smarter and to to learn to to
31:11navigate safety versus risk. So the mom
31:14says yeah but not the possibility of
31:16falling out of the tree and killing
31:17themselves. You know a dead child isn't
31:19that great of a you know uh the IQ isn't
31:22that important. And so they instead of
31:24having that back and forth uh they say
31:27so they negotiate a compromise. And the
31:29compromise might look something in this
31:31case like uh well all right um let's I
31:34I'm okay with Jaden climbing the
31:36climbing the tree but not above this
31:39level and these are new branches that
31:41have grown out um and keeping off of
31:45those new branches that are thinner that
31:47might be uh dangerous and you've got to
31:50be under the tree to protect that child
31:53from doing that. And so um and and then
31:56give me the cell phone so you don't
31:58focus on the phone rather than our
32:00daughter. Um and so what's the child
32:02gotten? They've gotten the advantage of
32:04being able to take some risks um climb
32:07the tree and but also the safety um that
32:10is the often the mother's gift to make
32:12sure that the child doesn't um become
32:14safe that way. And so that checks and
32:16balance parenting is so it's so
32:18important to know the value of dad's
32:20style parenting, the value of mom's
32:22style parenting, but more important than
32:25anything is to know how to negotiate
32:28checks and balance parenting.
32:30>> I remember once we were in the we were
32:33in LA and we went out to uh one of the
32:37national parks that has big boulders,
32:40big boulders. M
32:42>> uh Jordan and I were there with the kids
32:44and they were probably Michaela might
32:46have been nine maybe something like
32:49that. So Julian would be seven.
32:51>> Uh and Julian he was funny you know cuz
32:53Michaela she would climb up way too far
32:55>> on our on just our little backyard uh
32:59ladder and swing set. You know she'd go
33:01all the way up. Julian would go up a
33:03little bit and he'd say is this high
33:04enough? So he was [laughter] he was he
33:06had his own internal
33:09idea of what was safe risk for him
33:14whereas Michaela was looking to us.
33:17>> Other than that she wasn't scared at
33:18all. So she climbs up this big rock and
33:21those rocks are quite uh rough so you
33:23can climb them easily. So she got
33:24herself way up there
33:26>> and then she couldn't come down and
33:27Jordan had to climb up there and get her
33:29and bring her down
33:30>> and it was up to him. It was up to him
33:33to do that and not up to me. Yes. Just
33:35organically. Yes.
33:37>> That's how it works. But it was also
33:40interesting that Michaela would go too
33:42high
33:42>> and Julian wouldn't go too high.
33:44>> Yes.
33:45>> Maybe. Is that the difference between a
33:46boy and a girl?
33:47>> No. Usually the boy will go too high and
33:48the girl. So that's the reverse of the
33:50norm.
33:51>> Interesting. May because he was younger.
33:53>> That might have been that certainly
33:55might have contributed. But as a but as
33:57a rule, um boys don't pay nearly as much
34:01attention to the dangers or risks,
34:03>> which is why boys um are much much more
34:06likely to be killed when they're young.
34:09Um you between the ages of like eight
34:11and 20. So um you know, boys will be
34:14much more likely to die in motorcycle
34:16accidents and bicycle accidents and um
34:19do things like like that. actually my
34:21former my my wife um when um did exactly
34:25the same thing that um Michaela did got
34:28up too high and couldn't get down in
34:32this was in near Big Sah in California.
34:35>> Oh yeah. and um and so that created um
34:38challenges and she's not normally a risk
34:40taker but it was but funny to hear that
34:42that um challenge but as a rule um boys
34:45are far more likely to take risks that
34:47are likely to damage them seriously or
34:50kill them and girls are more likely to
34:52be cautious um and but in your case you
34:56know some girls are like boys and some
34:58boys like girls
34:59>> yeah that's right well I was probably uh
35:01more of a risk taker I can remember uh I
35:04was out with Jordan and we were
35:06teenagers and we were driving around and
35:08um we'd probably been drinking beer cuz
35:10that's what you did in Alberta is you
35:11drank beer when you were underage. It
35:13was just the thing that you did because
35:15um there had to be some risk in our
35:17lives I guess and so that was the risk
35:20that we were taking. Um anyway, we
35:23stopped and we were near some trees and
35:25I told him I was going to climb a tree
35:26and so I got out and I climbed up and I
35:28climbed up probably too high and he was
35:30standing at the bottom and I fell out
35:32>> and he was not very happy with me that I
35:34took that risk and at the end to save
35:36me. He was not very happy with me but I
35:38can see where Michaela got it from.
35:39>> Yeah. [laughter]
35:40>> Yeah.
35:43>> Yeah. Well, well, we do things that were
35:45not,
35:46>> you know, [clears throat]
35:46>> that weren't a good idea sometimes.
35:48>> But as a rule, you know, risk-
35:49takingaking is highly correlated with
35:51being successful in life. I mean,
35:52>> well, there you go. My dad was maybe
35:55gave me too much leeway in taking risks.
35:58So, I took that risk, too.
36:00>> Right. Because I hadn't been
36:03chaperoned as closely as I might have
36:05been when I was at a more vulnerable
36:08age.
36:08>> Yes. Yes.
36:10>> Yeah. I was not a very big risk taker
36:12physically,
36:13>> but you know, just what I was describing
36:15for you, what I did with speaking out on
36:18boys and men's issues, that was a major
36:20risk. I mean, not only was it a major
36:22risk, but it had a an absolutely
36:24provable prediction that I would lose
36:27access to almost all the major media
36:29that I was constantly being featured on
36:31and that I would also lose a huge amount
36:33of income.
36:34>> What did you think about that? I I
36:36[clears throat] wish I could say I just
36:38immediately made the the the right
36:40decision, the decision that I ultimately
36:42did make, but it was um a challenge. You
36:45know, I the good news was I was a good
36:47investor and I the money that I was
36:49making from speaking around the world
36:51was I invested well. Um, but I had, you
36:55know, I knew that it was going to be um,
36:58you know, that I would I I began to see
37:00pretty quickly, you know, that I was no
37:02longer being invited on the Today Show.
37:05Um, that when Oprah Winfreyy's producer
37:08found out after the fifth invitation
37:11that I was critical of going to be
37:13critical of feminism to some degree,
37:15that was the last call I ever got from
37:16her, you know, and so I had, you know,
37:18many, many experiences like that. Um,
37:21and so, um, and so I can say that I just
37:25quickly made the decision that I did end
37:27up making. I knew I was going to lose a
37:29lot and I I did value the things that I
37:32was receiving from that attention and
37:35that income. Um, but at the same time, I
37:37really felt I wanted to um, my security
37:40blanket was being able to teach at
37:43colleges and universities. But of course
37:44when I started to do what I did talking
37:47about the importance of boys and men's
37:49issues that was assumed by colleges and
37:52universities that I was now must be a
37:55misogynist and must be um you know this
37:59taking resources away from from women
38:02and so I could not you know when I when
38:05I taught the course on the boy crisis
38:07for the Peterson Academy for Jordan's
38:09academy
38:10>> um I mentioned there in teaching that
38:13course that everything that you are
38:15hearing over this six hours is something
38:18which no school will no university will
38:22allow me to say. And so I didn't realize
38:25that my security blanket, my PhD was not
38:28going to be good enough to allow me to
38:31teach at woke colleges.
38:33>> And then was this around the same time
38:35that University of Toronto uh you had
38:38some sort of you went there to speak and
38:40were you canceled or
38:41>> Yeah, I was. Yes. Oh, that's a very
38:43fascinating story by itself. But uh so
38:46no, it was my this was way before that.
38:48Um by by the time I spoke at the
38:50University of Toronto, I was beginning
38:52to write the boy crisis book. It was I
38:54think 2012 or 14 [laughter]
38:56>> and [clears throat] um and it's an
38:58interesting story. the um I am getting
39:01ready to leave to my speaking engagement
39:04and at the door instead of the two
39:05student in addition to the two students
39:07who are going to pick me up to take me
39:09to the the auditorium um at the
39:11University of Toronto um are two police
39:13officers. Oh
39:14>> and I go what's this about? and they
39:17say, "Well, we have to escort you to the
39:19green room in the back of the auditorium
39:22uh because the there's a big protest
39:25against your speaking here um at the
39:27University of Toronto." And I said,
39:29"Well, what's happening?" And they said,
39:31"Well, all these these feminists have
39:34not they're not just protesting, they're
39:37creating a body block to block people
39:39from going into the auditorium to see
39:41you." And they're all saying, "F you,
39:44Warren Ferrell." And I go, "Oh, it's not
39:47a problem." I had a demonstration once
39:49before and I just talked to the
39:50demonstrators and we made a deal that
39:53they could I'd give them free tickets.
39:54They'd come in, listen to the
39:56presentation. They wouldn't say
39:57anything. They wouldn't interrupt and
39:58they'd ask questions afterwards. And the
40:00police said to me, "You're not going to
40:02be able to do that with these people." I
40:04said, "I'll use humor. I'll go up there
40:06and say, listen, I'm in a monogous
40:07relationship. I know you've been saying,
40:09"F you, Warren Ferrell, but I can't do
40:11that fu because I'm in a monogous
40:13relationship." and you know that'll get
40:14them to laugh. It'll break down the you
40:16know the things he said. He said not
40:18with this group. This group is reaching
40:20out and giving a finger to police
40:22officers and they're they're not
40:24allowing police officers to touch them
40:26to to take them away from the block on
40:27the door. Uh this is not doable. And
40:31finally I gave into the police officers
40:33and got, you know, escorted to the green
40:34room in the back of the University of
40:36Toronto's auditorium. And I called Liz,
40:39my wife, and said, "Uh, listen." and she
40:42could hear the FU Warren Ferrell from
40:45inside the green room through the um the
40:50u the stage through the auditorium and
40:54through two sets of doors.
40:55>> Oh wow.
40:56>> Um she could hear that the the shouting
40:58be that be that loud.
41:00>> Fortunately, there was a fellow named
41:01Steve Brulee who was um had just
41:04interviewed me, still had his camera
41:06with him and took pictures of this. And
41:09so this became part of a documentary
41:10called The Boy Crisis: Warren Ferrell
41:13interrupted, which I think you're going
41:14to be um sharing clips with people
41:17about.
41:17>> Yes.
41:18>> And so the um and so that really um
41:22>> you know, that was really scary. Um and
41:25especially since, you know, people that
41:27I knew that were coming couldn't even
41:29get in. Um and so um then I I uh and
41:33people were then when they finally did
41:35resolve it, they had to call in the city
41:37police in order to be able to u because
41:39the the campus police were not allowed
41:41to touch the women who were giving them
41:43the fingers and touching them.
41:45>> Um so um that all that all
41:48>> So did your talk was did you were you
41:49able to give your talk? I was ultimately
41:51able to give the talk maybe to a half
41:53the or third of the audience that I that
41:56you know many of the people having um
41:58not being able to get in. It was a 45
42:00minutes until maybe an hour later that
42:03the police were able to clear clear the
42:05um doors and some people were obviously
42:07had homework to do and other things and
42:10they they left.
42:12One of the things that I think of when
42:14you tell that story is the fact that if
42:16these were boys that were protesting and
42:19the police were trying to stop them,
42:21they would use physical uh force.
42:24>> Yes.
42:25>> But because it was girls and young
42:28women,
42:31what happened? They couldn't touch them.
42:33>> Absolutely.
42:34>> So where are we there when we're talking
42:37about these uh mobs? Mhm.
42:41>> of feminists
42:43who are uh staging themselves outside of
42:47auditoriums and trying to stop
42:49proceedings. What do we do about those
42:52>> things? Where are we at in terms of
42:53that?
42:54>> Well, first of all, you're absolutely
42:56right. But what you're saying is just a
42:59little
43:01piece of a much bigger picture
43:04>> about
43:06people like Gloria Steinum would often
43:08say that women are oppressed. And I say,
43:10"Well, wait a minute. We're far less
43:12likely to, you know, to do something
43:14like handle a a woman in a way that's
43:18going to hurt her than we are to handle
43:19a man."
43:20>> Yeah.
43:20>> Um and that we um and that women have me
43:24many advantages uh to be protected by
43:27men even at the expense of their own
43:29life
43:30>> um and not vice versa. Um and so we and
43:34we we have just lots of data on this.
43:37And then if there is um something that
43:40happens that is a crime um the woman for
43:43the same crime is much gets a much more
43:46lenient sentence on the on average um or
43:50is freed from the crime if she's if
43:52she's say dealing drugs with a um with
43:55her husband and she she and her husband
43:57are in the process together. Um there's
44:00a drugdeing sort of um ethic among
44:03police that you then um that you get you
44:07give the woman the opportunity of a plea
44:09bargain and she can testify against her
44:12husband and the husband will get the um
44:14punishment, she will get free. So now if
44:17they make a second do a second crime, he
44:19already has a criminal record. She
44:20doesn't and it escalates all the way up
44:23this the scale um until the death
44:25sentence. Um, and so everybody that has
44:29had a death sentence that has been freed
44:33from that has eventually been found out
44:36to not have committed the crime u
44:39because of DNA evidence or things like
44:41that that came up um but nevertheless
44:43was um executed. They've all been men.
44:49>> That's a problem. Well, it's a problem
44:51that we we say on the one hand, it's a
44:55patriarchal society in which men make
44:58the rules to benefit men at the expense
44:59of women, which is exactly the opposite
45:02of not understanding where women are
45:05being protected by men and even
45:07unfairly. So, um you know, if we want
45:10men and women to be equal, um they
45:12should, you know, have to deal with
45:14equal responsibilities before the law as
45:16and equal privileges and equal lack of
45:19privileges.
45:20>> Yeah. Right. And it looks it looks like
45:23because men it looks to me anyway that
45:26men historically have been in the social
45:28world and uh there's an etiquette and a
45:31hierarchy and everything that they all
45:34uh adhere to publicly, but women have
45:37been in the house for so long and in
45:39their small communities for so long and
45:41now they're starting to gather in groups
45:44in society and they don't know how to do
45:46it.
45:46>> Mhm. They don't have the history and the
45:50and the foundational infrastructure to
45:53know what the rules are and how to uh be
45:58respectful
46:00and effective.
46:01>> Yes.
46:01>> Socially,
46:02>> yes.
46:02>> For social change.
46:04>> Yes.
46:05It's I I very much agree with you there.
46:08what's happened and that happened for me
46:11in relation to the way the feminist
46:13movement evolved at the beginning it was
46:16I am woman I am strong yeah
46:17>> and then it's I am woman I've been
46:19wronged
46:21>> right [laughter]
46:22>> now victim power
46:24>> is very powerful when you're dealing
46:28with men and you're saying that you're a
46:30victim um men feel terrible and we want
46:34to rescue you we want to make sure
46:35you're not a victim so that plays right
46:38into the male and female biology of the
46:41female saying I need protection and the
46:43male saying I'll protect you don't worry
46:45I'll I'll risk my life and you know when
46:47I was involved with the feminist
46:49movement and you know I was everybody's
46:51hero um every almost every woman's hero
46:54and the um and it was you know to give
46:57up that role of being a hero um and and
47:01saying wait a minute real protection of
47:04you is having you take responsibility
47:06and not play victim. So we saw this
47:09particularly with hashtagme too. Um the
47:12and hashtagme too did a good thing and a
47:15bad thing. The good thing was it's
47:18always important for people to be able
47:20to express their feelings and for people
47:22to be able to hear the feelings they
47:23expressed. And so women all over the
47:26world um said what how men had offended
47:29them and how men had victimized them and
47:32so on. They shared what was going on
47:34inside of them. That was good. However,
47:38what was bad was that hashtagmeto became
47:41a monologue. And what it should have
47:44been is a dialogue. For each woman that
47:47feels oppressed or hurt by a man,
47:50there's a man that feels in some way
47:52hurt or oppressed by a woman. um that a
47:56woman that uh rejected him, that did a
47:58false accusation. A woman that in a in a
48:01custody battle um claimed that um that
48:03that she was um she should have the
48:06children because he was abusive or too
48:09strict or to this or that and she had he
48:12goes to court and she has to she has the
48:15right to the children and he has to
48:16fight for children. Um, and so there's
48:20so what we did with hashtagme too is we
48:23articulated the female experience of
48:26powerlessness and the female experience
48:29of male power.
48:31But what we didn't do is express the
48:34male experience of powerlessness and the
48:37male experience of female power. the
48:41enormous amount of power that genetic
48:44celebrity power, for example, has.
48:47Genetic celebrity, I mean, the power of
48:49a beautiful woman who just because of
48:52her genes, um, is treated to by an older
48:56man to a trip around the world for free
48:59or at dinner at a nice restaurant. Um,
49:03which and but almost never happens in
49:06reverse. Um, and so that genetic
49:08celebrity power is something that, you
49:10know, he feels, you know, I felt, um,
49:13when I was growing up that, you know,
49:14that I had to mow lawns during the
49:16summer and do things I didn't like
49:17doing, um, caddy and figure out ways of
49:20earning money so I could have enough
49:22money to pay for the gas to ask a girl
49:24out um, and pay for the dinner and
49:26things like that. But the girls my age
49:28didn't feel a need to do that for for me
49:32or for us or for boys. And there's just
49:34dozens of hundreds of examples like that
49:36that I some of which I talk about in the
49:38boy crisis and um now writing a book
49:41called the man crisis in which I'll be
49:42talking about that much more so.
49:45>> Okay.
49:45>> Um and and so that needs to be
49:48understood. We need to understand
49:51women's experience of powerlessness and
49:53women's experience of male power and
49:55men's experience of powerlessness and
49:57men's experience of women's power. And
49:59we've done nothing about the latter
50:01virtually. And the result is that people
50:03really believe that there is a
50:05patriarchal society in which men make
50:07the rules to benefit men at the expense
50:09of women. So let's talk a little bit
50:11then about [clears throat] the book that
50:13you wrote which was uh rolemate to
50:15soulmate and you identified uh six
50:20mindset
50:21questions that men and women can
50:26>> um have on hand and and practice
50:29>> so that they can be a more of effective
50:33couple because a lot of what we're
50:35talking about are men and women
50:38separately and I I do think that it's
50:40really important for there to be women
50:42in women groups and men in men men's
50:44groups and I think we've un we've uh
50:47dispensed with those thinking that
50:49that's not important but that's a
50:50mistake they they are necessary but also
50:53then in the in the marriage there are
50:58fewer marriages there's fewer successful
51:00marriages uh and
51:03you have identified ways that people
51:06could
51:08communicate negotiate and find love in
51:11their relationships. And I think think
51:12now we could talk about what we could do
51:14to bring those things that you've
51:17identified as problems.
51:18>> Yes.
51:19>> To effective, more effective way to
51:23live.
51:24um about 31 years ago um I read some
51:28stuff by John Gottman that said that um
51:30that when he did workshops he he said to
51:33people it was really important to not be
51:36defensive in response to personal
51:38criticism
51:39>> um but that when these couples went home
51:42and everybody agreed um but when they
51:44couples went home and the first
51:46criticism appeared this wisdom
51:47disappeared and so this fascinated me
51:50and I said what is that about a and B,
51:55if I could help people in this area, it
51:59probably would be
52:01extremely helpful. I didn't have a clue
52:04as to how helpful it would be, but I had
52:07a a clue that it would be helpful. And
52:09so I started to experiment with various
52:11ways of doing this. And ultimately um
52:14and I realized that the this that
52:19if people
52:21heard criticism,
52:24even if it was said nicely,
52:27um even if it was said um with a lot of
52:30love first, they would hear the butt
52:33train coming around the mountain and
52:35knowing, okay, this is just a setup for
52:37being criticized here. and they would
52:40begin to steal up and get defensive. And
52:42so I said, "What needs I said,"Wh is
52:45this so powerful?" And I realized that
52:48historically speaking, um, when we heard
52:50criticism, it was a potential enemy. Um,
52:53and so it really made sense to get up
52:55your defenses and kill the enemy before
52:57the enemy killed you. Uh and so that an
53:00evolutionary shift was required to be
53:02able to shift from um being able to
53:05defend yourself so you wouldn't be
53:07killed, which was functional for
53:08survival, but it was terrible for love.
53:12>> Um and so I said, "Okay, so this is big
53:14stuff here that's really deeply
53:16ingrained. So I have to do something
53:18that will allow people to think
53:21differently about this." And so what I
53:23ultimately ended up doing is creating a
53:26a number of practices that all fit
53:29together. But the most important single
53:31practice is what I call setting aside
53:33two hours a week for what I call a
53:36caring and sharing practice or a caring
53:38and sharing time. Now at the beginning
53:40of those two hours, each person from the
53:42couple shares what they most appreciate
53:45about their partner. But th those
53:47appreciations get done at much more much
53:50deeper levels of specificity than they
53:53normally are. I teach people how to do
53:55what I call panning for gold. Panning
53:57for your partner's gold. And the um and
54:00so that's comes at the beginning, but
54:02then after that comes one concern and
54:06only one concern that you're allowed to
54:08share with your partner. But before you
54:11share that concern, because
54:13evolutionarily you're not allowed to
54:15hear that without feeling defensive, I
54:18have to change the evolutionary mindsets
54:21of the people um about ready to hear.
54:24>> So two things need to happen here. Your
54:26partner, the one that giving the
54:28criticism has to hear that the person
54:31who is ready to hear the criticism is
54:34genuinely ready to hear it without
54:36becoming defensive. So the person giving
54:39the criticism feels safe and the person
54:41giving the criticism feels safe only
54:44when she or he knows that their partner
54:47is making themselves safe. So the six
54:49mindsets that you mentioned are about
54:52how to make yourself safe. So I'll give
54:54a couple of mindsets as examples. So the
54:57first mindset is I call die for. So the
55:00couples prepare for that by sitting back
55:02to back to each other. uh they fill out
55:05a uh on a piece of paper the little
55:08yellow pad that I tell them that they're
55:10going to write on and their part partner
55:12will never see their answers. Um and so
55:15I asked the question if you're about if
55:18your partner is about to be killed,
55:20let's say in a car accident or drowning
55:23and you know with a 100% certainty you
55:25can save your partner's life, but that
55:27you have a 50% chance of risking your of
55:30losing your own life in the process. Um,
55:33are you willing to um do it? Um, yes,
55:39no, or uncertain. Um, and uh and and
55:43then and then I say make believe there's
55:45no children involved in the process. So,
55:48um, your partner's about to die. You
55:50know, you can save your partner's life,
55:51but you have a 50% chance of risking
55:53your own life in the pro process. Yes.
55:55No, or uncertain. Everybody wrinkles up
55:57their pieces of paper. Throw it um the
56:00men pick up all the men's pieces of
56:01paper. the women pick up all the women's
56:04and they read the answers and the
56:05answers are about 90 a little bit over
56:0890% of the men said yes I take a 50%
56:11risk of dying um in exchange for say no
56:14100% chance of saving my partner's life
56:16but 82 83% of women on average say the
56:20same thing if there's no children
56:21involved um and then I say if if if you
56:25will risk your life are you willing to
56:27risk an arm or a leg and so then
56:30actually the figures are just slightly
56:32higher for arm or leg and some women say
56:34they're willing to lose their life but
56:36not an arm or a leg [laughter] which is
56:38interesting by itself but the uh so then
56:41the first mindset is to say
56:46if I will die for you maybe the least I
56:48can do is listen [laughter] and it just
56:51puts listening to your partner's
56:53criticism in an enormous perspective
56:56>> the second is what I call the love
56:58guarantee and the love guarantee is um
57:02you say to your partner,
57:04"If I can listen to you, even if I feel
57:09that your version of this is completely
57:12wrong, even if I know that I can prove
57:15it's a lie, even if you're being
57:17sarcastic,
57:19um if no matter what and how you express
57:22it, if I can just be here for you while
57:26you share that, then you'll feel more
57:29secure being yourself with me and if you
57:32feel and then you'll feel more loved by
57:35me and therefore more love for me
57:39and so they do those two mindsets and
57:42four other mindsets like that
57:44>> and at the end of that they um they say
57:48I'm if they are they say I'm ready to
57:50hear anything that you wish to say in
57:53any way you wish to say it and then when
57:57that's completely finished they they
57:59They ask, "Here's what I heard you say."
58:02And the and then the partner says, "Um,
58:04this is I you you didn't distort
58:06anything. You didn't miss anything or
58:08you did distort something. You did miss
58:10something." And the person listening
58:12keeps reviewing it until they never say,
58:15"Oh, I didn't distort that. I said
58:17that." They said, they keep working at
58:19it until their partner says, "That's
58:21completely accurate and nothing was
58:23missed and um nothing needs to be
58:25added." And so and then the re then the
58:29situation reverses. Um and that's a
58:32tough one because once you feel
58:35completely understood,
58:38it's implicit that you feel that if your
58:40partner understands your perspective,
58:42they must agree with it.
58:44>> Not true. The partner could understand
58:47it and be empathetic to it, but have a
58:50totally different way of looking at the
58:52world. And so I give them a sheet of
58:54paper um with um the
58:59on one corner is a picture of Mario
59:01Cuomo painted by um um uh Warhol,
59:06another by Picasso, another by two
59:09different other artists. And I say this
59:12is the the same picture of the same
59:14person, but yet four different artists
59:17look at it in four different ways. And
59:19when your partner shares his or her
59:21story, sh they're going to share a Van
59:24Go painting, not a Picasso. You had the
59:27Picasso and you chose to marry the Van
59:30Go. You chose to marry, you know, this
59:32person or be with this person. And so
59:34hear their story from their perspective.
59:37That's really hard for them to do the
59:40because it's really implicit in our soul
59:44that when our partner really gets what
59:46we're saying that they must therefore
59:47agree with it. And it's so important to
59:50realize that two different stories can
59:52coexist and that one of the reasons they
59:55coexisted is is the the value you saw in
1:00:00a person who looked at the world a
1:00:01little differently.
1:00:03So you avoid then uh pleasing the other
1:00:07person or telling you their story.
1:00:10>> Yes. Well, you please them because they
1:00:12feel heard, but you don't please them by
1:00:16sucking up to them and and and making
1:00:19and not telling your story.
1:00:21>> Right. Right.
1:00:21>> And and you make sure and part of the
1:00:24process is them hearing your story as
1:00:28well as you hearing theirs at the end of
1:00:31that process. And this you know this uh
1:00:34then they go back and they give two more
1:00:36appreciations of a very specific level.
1:00:38>> Then I teach them also how to um have a
1:00:41conflict-free zone for the rest of the
1:00:43week. So they do this for two hours. 166
1:00:47hours is the conflict free zone. How to
1:00:49prepare for that conflict free zone. how
1:00:51to do the um the the art and the
1:00:54discipline of appreciating each other in
1:00:57a much more panning for each other's
1:00:59goal and golden a number of things like
1:01:02this work together. Now the importance
1:01:04of all this is it relates to the bo well
1:01:06one of the importances of all of this is
1:01:08that it relates it is the most important
1:01:12single preventive of the boy crisis.
1:01:16So, how? Because the single biggest
1:01:19contributor to divorce is not being able
1:01:22to hear your partner's perspective. Um,
1:01:25and so when you can hear your partner's
1:01:27criticism without becoming defensive is
1:01:29far more likely to lead lead to a a a
1:01:32good marriage with good role models or
1:01:35good communication with fewer divorces
1:01:38and better role models and
1:01:39communication. You're less likely to
1:01:41have those divorces. With fewer
1:01:43divorces, you're less likely to have dad
1:01:45be deprived of the dad. With less dad
1:01:48deprivation, you're less likely to have
1:01:50a boy crisis.
1:01:52>> So, in Jordan and my marriage, when
1:01:55Michaela was a baby, uh Jordan said he
1:01:58was lonely. I said I wasn't. I had a
1:02:00baby. I was fulfilled more than more
1:02:04than fulfilled physically when you have
1:02:07a baby, a new baby. But I thought about
1:02:09it and I said, "Well, you're lonely. uh
1:02:12we can organize dates. And so we started
1:02:16having dates three times a week where we
1:02:18would just spend two hours an an evening
1:02:22three times a week when the kids were
1:02:23asleep just in the living room. We would
1:02:25uh he would set up candles and music and
1:02:27I would go and he would dress in
1:02:29something nice. I would dress in
1:02:31something nice and we we'd dance. We
1:02:32didn't know how to dance, but after 37
1:02:35years we know how to dance. So So that
1:02:37was a good practice. But one of the
1:02:39things that uh over the over the years
1:02:42that I noticed was
1:02:44>> say, you know, we're both busy doing our
1:02:46own things during the week and then we
1:02:48have this time where we're supposed to
1:02:49be together.
1:02:50>> Mhm.
1:02:51>> Yes.
1:02:51>> Well, there was a prerequisite that had
1:02:53to happen before we could be together.
1:02:56And I felt an uh I felt a need to bring
1:03:01up one thing that wasn't functioning
1:03:04well in the house
1:03:05>> before I could be
1:03:08>> uh with him without any reservations.
1:03:11Now, he wouldn't do that with me.
1:03:13>> Mhm.
1:03:14>> Which would have been a really good
1:03:15thing if he would do that. Yes. He
1:03:17didn't
1:03:18>> he didn't find it in himself necessary
1:03:22or or a yearning to share something with
1:03:25me.
1:03:26But that would have made it, I think,
1:03:28even a better and more complete um
1:03:32negotiation for a very true and honest
1:03:36interaction between the two of us.
1:03:38>> Yes, that is first of all agree, agree,
1:03:42agree. Number two, everyone listening to
1:03:46you speak just now really hear the value
1:03:49of setting aside time for the two of you
1:03:52to be together and especially dance.
1:03:55Music is the cheapest, one of the most
1:03:58effective and least expensive therapists
1:04:00in the world. Take advantage of that.
1:04:03Take advantage of setting aside those
1:04:05couple of hours. Three times a week is
1:04:07more than most people will do, but one
1:04:10even once a week gives you something to
1:04:12really look forward to and connected to.
1:04:14Now, let's deal with the second part of
1:04:15that issue, which is men's fear of
1:04:19sharing what's going on inside of them.
1:04:22>> And so, men have the good news and the
1:04:24bad news. Men, in order to be able to be
1:04:27willing to be disposable in war and
1:04:29places like things like that, we had to
1:04:31repress our feelings. We had to prepare
1:04:33ourselves to be disposable. Um and to if
1:04:36you if if you're dispos if you're
1:04:37preparing yourself to be disposable like
1:04:39in war uh you shut your mouth you
1:04:42develop toxic masculinity which does not
1:04:44come from male privilege but comes from
1:04:46male obligation and responsibility and
1:04:49but it's but it is dysfunctional and so
1:04:52that's number one. Number two is that
1:04:54most men, so gay marriages that are
1:04:58female, two lesbians, are uh 50% more
1:05:02likely to have divorces as heterosexual
1:05:05marriages. Why? Because two women will
1:05:09talk to each other about their feelings.
1:05:11But nobody can handle personal criticism
1:05:15with almost nobody can handle personal
1:05:16criticism without becoming defensive. So
1:05:20both women bring up the feelings they
1:05:22have, but if they bring it up to a
1:05:25partner that hasn't been trained to
1:05:27handle personal criticism without
1:05:28becoming defensive, it escalates, leads
1:05:31to a divorce. Mh.
1:05:32>> So the first thing that needs to happen
1:05:34before a man's going to be a feel
1:05:36willing to um to bring up what concerns
1:05:39him is to know that that that the his
1:05:43wife has altered her natural space of
1:05:47being able to feel um to be respond to
1:05:50respond defensively to criticism because
1:05:53he's much more in need of her love than
1:05:57he is in need of any to be able to share
1:06:00his feelings. But if he really got in
1:06:02touch with his feelings, he would yearn
1:06:04to share them. Men yearn to share them
1:06:07so much that the prostitutes that I have
1:06:09interviewed in my life have almost all
1:06:12said, "Yes, the men care about sex, but
1:06:15they spend more time talking to me about
1:06:19what they're feeling and going through
1:06:21that they can't talk to their wives
1:06:23about." In Japan, there's an instit
1:06:26institution called the snack where men
1:06:29on the way home from work um pay an
1:06:32extraordinary amount for a snack uh
1:06:35that's worth about one 20th of what
1:06:38it's, you know, they're paying for. But
1:06:40because what they're listening to, the
1:06:42deal is that the person serving them the
1:06:44snack will not will just listen to them.
1:06:48So they can dump out all their feelings
1:06:50to somebody who they don't care whether
1:06:52they this person respects them or not.
1:06:54Go home, be rid of all those feelings
1:06:57and not have to dump them on their wife.
1:06:59>> Um so this gives you a sense of men's
1:07:02need
1:07:03and the bene the benefits of sharing
1:07:06your feelings and what happens when men
1:07:08repress them. But men, you know, I have
1:07:10had the toughest people I've ever had to
1:07:13work with in my 31 years of doing this
1:07:15role mate to soulmate course are men who
1:07:17have formerly been married and said, "I
1:07:20have promised myself I will never bring
1:07:23up what's bothering me to my wife
1:07:26>> in the future because it never works."
1:07:29Um, and so, and it doesn't work for most
1:07:32people, men or women, unless they alter
1:07:36their natural biological state first.
1:07:38and those mind. So that's why I
1:07:40developed those mindsets and that that
1:07:42to to to do that.
1:07:45>> That's very good. I can work with that.
1:07:48Um I want to also talk about a chapter
1:07:52in your new book called from civil war
1:07:55to civil dialogue. And so this is
1:07:58another uh working
1:08:02u method. Yes.
1:08:03>> For relationships. Yes.
1:08:04>> Correct.
1:08:06>> Yes. So, um, most of us have families
1:08:09where we get together at Thanksgiving or
1:08:11the holidays, whether it's Christmas or
1:08:13Hanukkah or whatever. Um, we get
1:08:15together with our families and there's
1:08:16somebody in that fam, our family who has
1:08:19political views that are very different
1:08:21from ours. In our family, we have a
1:08:23couple, you know, somebody, you know,
1:08:24two people that ran for office as
1:08:27Democrats and two people who are very
1:08:29strong Trump supporters. [laughter] And
1:08:31so, we have, like most families, we have
1:08:33that. and um and they don't talk with
1:08:36each other. Um and that's deeply sad
1:08:39because we all want to be more family
1:08:41together.
1:08:42>> And so the so the first thing to do is
1:08:45to ideally is to know how to handle
1:08:48personal criticism without becoming
1:08:49defensive. But the chances are the
1:08:51person in your family will not know that
1:08:53or have that background. And so one of
1:08:56the first things um to that I have um
1:08:59people do is to sort of um to ask some
1:09:06the person in the family who disagrees
1:09:08with them
1:09:10if they can spend some time just
1:09:12listening to their perspectives and and
1:09:16the with the promise that once they've
1:09:18gone through the workshop and they know
1:09:19how to handle personal criticism without
1:09:21becoming defensive uh to say that I've
1:09:24learned learned this and I'm I'm I want
1:09:26to hear where you operate from. Um and
1:09:30so then the first thing that you do is
1:09:32to say first of all what the two of you
1:09:35have in common. Okay. What does the
1:09:37Trump person have in common with the um
1:09:40the woke um you know person the
1:09:42>> both interested in politics?
1:09:43>> They're both interested in politics. But
1:09:46even deeper than the interest in
1:09:48politics is they both care. M
1:09:52>> when I was younger the the before John
1:09:55Kennedy was elected everybody the
1:09:58biggest problem was apathy
1:10:01>> and we know in a democracy you can't
1:10:03exist with apathy when people don't vote
1:10:05or care
1:10:06>> right
1:10:06>> and fortunately John Kennedy changed
1:10:08that um but but but still what you have
1:10:13in common with the person who hates the
1:10:15person you love is that you both care
1:10:19>> you're usually both curious is you're
1:10:21usually both pretty smart even though
1:10:23you think the other person is dumb for
1:10:25thinking about the other person this
1:10:27way. And you both care about politics.
1:10:30And one of the reasons you both care
1:10:32about politics is you both care about
1:10:34the country. You both care about where
1:10:35we're going. You take respons you take
1:10:37you you you internalize it enough to
1:10:39take responsibility for it. the chances
1:10:42are you both uh and so you share first
1:10:45all the things that like this that the
1:10:48two of you have in common and suddenly
1:10:50you're sitting on wow we're a hell of a
1:10:53lot more alike than we are not alike.
1:10:56The second thing is you work on um the
1:11:00virtue. So every virtue taken to its
1:11:04extreme becomes a vice.
1:11:07>> I like that part.
1:11:08>> Um and that's
1:11:09>> that's worthwhile. Both of those are
1:11:10worthwhile.
1:11:11>> Thank you. Every virtue taken to its
1:11:14extreme becomes a vice. Um I deal with
1:11:17that in the role made mate to soulmate
1:11:18book in much greater depth. But for but
1:11:21one of the things so for example let's
1:11:24say your partner is very strong
1:11:27supporter of DEI um diversity equity and
1:11:30inclusion
1:11:32>> and so and you feel um you're
1:11:34conservative and you feel like that you
1:11:36know this has controlled people can't
1:11:38even talk in school now they can't say
1:11:41anything that they want to say. um when
1:11:44you know a genius um in math goes to
1:11:46graduate school. Most graduate schools
1:11:48won't admit a white male um in graduate
1:11:51school anymore. U this is obviously gone
1:11:54way too far but rather than starting
1:11:57with way too far, you start with where
1:11:59diversity, equity, and inclusion started
1:12:02every and look at the for for your
1:12:05friend's virtue in it. What's the virtue
1:12:08of diversity, equity, inclusion? Do we
1:12:10want people to be feel do we want to
1:12:13live in a country where more people no
1:12:15matter what their background is there um
1:12:18do do we want them to be have a voice to
1:12:20be able to be heard to be of course we
1:12:22do do we want equity we do do we
1:12:25understand the difference between equity
1:12:26and equality and if we do exp um that's
1:12:29a very a positive thing too it's a very
1:12:31important and big difference and do we
1:12:33want to include people yes we do so that
1:12:36all started from a virtue
1:12:37>> it's just that virtue got so taken as it
1:12:42had to be. It had to be that no
1:12:45professor was allowed to say anything.
1:12:48That was um that was real if it had any
1:12:52um chance of being interpreted as being
1:12:56um something that might be critical of a
1:12:59woman, a Jewish person, um you know, an
1:13:02older person or rather a younger person
1:13:04or so on. And so, uh, you're taking a
1:13:06university where everything should be
1:13:09allowed to be heard, um, and instead of
1:13:11creating a Peterson Academy where a lot
1:13:13more can be heard, uh, you create, um, a
1:13:16university that's the opposite of a
1:13:18university. And so um but by starting to
1:13:22listen to your partner that uh that's
1:13:24that may be very woke with the diverse
1:13:27with the the virtue your your friend
1:13:30your your family member can see that you
1:13:33see in them something that is good about
1:13:36something that you usually only focus on
1:13:39for the negativity. So it's that type of
1:13:42um steps that I ask people in the
1:13:46chapter on civil war to civil dialogue
1:13:48to take usually when first of all I have
1:13:51to say not a lot of people do this um
1:13:55the the fear factor is enormous um many
1:13:59many more people do the um mindsets with
1:14:02their partner because the investment is
1:14:04much greater and I can say that after
1:14:06the the role mate to soulmate workshop
1:14:09we take surveys as to whether people
1:14:11feel better about the relationship
1:14:12afterwards than before. And there's with
1:14:15two exceptions, two people who were
1:14:17honeymooners that felt 10 on a scale of
1:14:191 to 10, they felt 10 before and 10
1:14:21afterwards with the exception of those
1:14:23two couples. Um, everyone except for one
1:14:26person over a three-year period um said
1:14:29that they um felt much better. the
1:14:31average went from on a scale of 1 to 10
1:14:34being a six to a little bit more than a
1:14:36nine um about their relationship not
1:14:39only at the moment but they had tools to
1:14:42continue that process in the future. And
1:14:45>> I wonder if uh the social implications
1:14:49of these exercises
1:14:52uh I wonder if they have to start with
1:14:54the individual. The individual being
1:14:56willing to uh
1:15:00take what they know
1:15:04with a grain of salt and investigate
1:15:08what they don't know. which would be to
1:15:11f to broaden out their conception of the
1:15:14other of the other. So I know that I had
1:15:18when George was real sick
1:15:21in 2020
1:15:23uh and I had just got out of the
1:15:24hospital. Uh so I was not involved in
1:15:28his care and and I was afraid for his
1:15:30survival.
1:15:31>> Yes.
1:15:32um the way that it was set up, my
1:15:35daughter had taken him to Russia and to
1:15:38Serbia and I didn't go and so I felt a
1:15:41terrible fear because of that and I had
1:15:44resentment towards her that I really
1:15:46didn't want
1:15:47>> toward her
1:15:48>> towards her. Michaela.
1:15:49>> Yeah. Because she was with him, I guess,
1:15:51and I wasn't. So then there was this
1:15:54>> weird uh trouble that I found myself in.
1:15:57And so I walked for two weeks asking for
1:16:00this resentment to be taken from me that
1:16:02I didn't want it. But during that
1:16:04process, I'd been reading quite a bit
1:16:06and I decided and I found I thought well
1:16:08if I can look at her differently. So, I
1:16:11looked I I wrote a positive personality
1:16:15>> uh inventory
1:16:16>> of her and realized that this one thing
1:16:19that I was
1:16:22focused on, hooked on, trapped in was a
1:16:26very narrow uh lens of who she was. And
1:16:30it didn't take into account all the the
1:16:33full scope of who she was, who was a
1:16:36daughter, a loving daughter, uh uh a
1:16:39caring person, um uh a beautiful soul,
1:16:44like all of these other things. And and
1:16:46then it and then it was just obvious to
1:16:48me that whatever it is that I was
1:16:50focusing on was narrow and self- serving
1:16:54>> and self-pittitying.
1:16:56Uh it and it had all those terrible
1:16:59features of something that was very
1:17:02negative and it was really going to
1:17:03destroy everything about our
1:17:05relationship which was just waiting to
1:17:08be uh rectified
1:17:11and so then my resentment was taken from
1:17:14me and I no longer had it. But that's
1:17:16what I see you doing in a way is that
1:17:18kind of process of identifying someone
1:17:21instead of this narrow view of your
1:17:25your focus, what you want to happen,
1:17:29what you feel is most important to a
1:17:33broader understanding of a person as a
1:17:36whole and then seeing what you want in
1:17:39perspective. And if you do that, it's
1:17:42much more obvious that your perspective
1:17:44is very narrow.
1:17:45>> Yes.
1:17:47>> Yeah. That's And that's a Oh, that's a
1:17:50very effective That's a really effective
1:17:53way to bring you out of a place of real
1:17:56suffering.
1:17:58>> Real suffering to a place that is just
1:18:00full of love.
1:18:01>> Yes.
1:18:01>> And generosity.
1:18:03>> And what a gift to ourselves to have
1:18:04rather than suffering. just and and it's
1:18:06a pretty like what you're what you're
1:18:09suggesting here and what I was
1:18:11suggesting are ways to see things in a
1:18:15better way. Wouldn't we all want to be
1:18:17able to see uh ourselves to give
1:18:20ourselves a break from whatever it is
1:18:23that we're imposing on ourselves and
1:18:25then be filled with more peace and also
1:18:29then fill the people that we're with
1:18:30with peace.
1:18:31>> Yes.
1:18:32Um
1:18:34if you can start from that process that
1:18:38is terrific. That requires though a lot
1:18:41of maturity to do that,
1:18:42>> right? And I was fairly mature by then,
1:18:45right? I wasn't 15 or 13 or Yeah.
1:18:49The when it comes to couples, most
1:18:52people when they come to the workshop,
1:18:55they have in common a desire to have a
1:18:58better marriage and they know that
1:19:00something's wrong and they know that
1:19:02they're not being heard, but they are
1:19:04more focused on them not being heard
1:19:08about the things that their partner
1:19:10doesn't hear and or that they're even
1:19:13more important that that they know that
1:19:16it's unhealthy to be walking on
1:19:18eggshells. Um, most couples, both people
1:19:22are walking on eggshells, fearful that
1:19:25if they say something, it'll only lead
1:19:27to an argument that will make things
1:19:28worse.
1:19:30>> Um, and so most couples don't come in
1:19:33with both of them saying, "I really need
1:19:36to look inside of myself." Uh because
1:19:38when we're in that type of mode with our
1:19:41partner, most of us lose some of our
1:19:44maturity and don't do what you very, you
1:19:48know, brilliantly, maturely, and
1:19:51importantly did um for yourself um with
1:19:54Michaela.
1:19:54>> I think that by the time I got to that
1:19:57point, I'd already gone through the 12
1:19:58steps of
1:19:59>> Alanon,
1:20:00>> which was also very helpful.
1:20:02>> Yes. Yes.
1:20:03>> And made me understand I needed
1:20:05willingness to change.
1:20:07>> Yes. and that I could only change
1:20:08myself.
1:20:09>> Yes.
1:20:10>> Yeah. And so, yeah, wonderful. These are
1:20:13really important. What you're doing, I
1:20:14think, is very important, especially the
1:20:16social implication of this
1:20:18>> because we are at a point where people
1:20:20are not able to to have constructive
1:20:23arguments.
1:20:24>> Yes. Yes. And I everybody I know says we
1:20:28need to be less divided. And almost
1:20:30[clears throat]
1:20:31nobody I know has spent any time really
1:20:34opening their mind up to somebody from
1:20:35whom they are divided. Right.
1:20:37>> It's so amazing to see that that can
1:20:40coexist in brilliant people's minds.
1:20:43[laughter]
1:20:44That's it's very fascinating.
1:20:46>> I I kind of wonder whether high school
1:20:49students shouldn't go through tw the 12
1:20:51steps.
1:20:52>> Yes.
1:20:52>> Because that would be it's a secular
1:20:55it's a secular it's a higher power but
1:20:58non-denominational. Yes.
1:20:59>> And so it's open to everyone.
1:21:01>> Yes.
1:21:02>> To investigate. That's the beauty of
1:21:04that.
1:21:04>> It eventually took me to the Catholic
1:21:06Church because I wanted a deeper
1:21:07understanding of my higher power.
1:21:10>> And uh but that's up to each individual
1:21:12to find their way forward.
1:21:14>> Yes.
1:21:15>> Um and I think that would be good for
1:21:18boys and girls, their relationships. And
1:21:21also, you know, um, one other thing I
1:21:23wanted to talk about was that, uh, in
1:21:25high school when kids start to look at
1:21:28their, uh, a romantic partner, uh, and
1:21:31can't avoid thinking about their
1:21:33romantic partners, what is in their
1:21:36mind, what is the motivation, and what
1:21:40is the, uh, goal, what are they looking
1:21:44for? And we don't talk about what they
1:21:46should be looking for. That's what I
1:21:48found in my high school experience was
1:21:50that I was using my boyfriends
1:21:52instrumentally, not recognizing that I
1:21:54was searching for a husband and that
1:21:56wasn't ever talked about.
1:21:58>> Yes. Yes. Very interesting. I think Yes.
1:22:02One of the things what you're saying has
1:22:04reminded me of is that my wife and I
1:22:08have just um finished a long discussion
1:22:10of um my legacy project
1:22:14>> and dealing with 83 and dealing with
1:22:18dealing with the fact that you know
1:22:20>> I'm
1:22:21have limited number of years.
1:22:23>> Yeah. thinking about really what you
1:22:24want to say
1:22:24>> and um
1:22:25>> and I realized, you know, the the the
1:22:27thing that I've done in my life that is
1:22:30I feel most important is [clears throat]
1:22:32creating this um uh 8 hour
1:22:36online video virtual course that people
1:22:40that can't afford to come to places like
1:22:43to take the actual course um can do at
1:22:46home and I'd like to distribute that for
1:22:49free um through all the religious
1:22:53communities and
1:22:55>> through the religious communities.
1:22:57>> Religious communities.
1:22:57>> Oh, that's a very good
1:22:59>> and also through the um the schools and
1:23:02boy scouts and so on.
1:23:05>> And so um
1:23:06>> I noticed there was a QR code on the
1:23:08audio book.
1:23:09>> That's right. And
1:23:10>> so you're already offering it?
1:23:12>> Yes, I'm already offering that, but at
1:23:13this point through the audio book, it's
1:23:15it's offered for $97. and you know 99.9%
1:23:19of people will not be reading the role
1:23:21mate to soulmate book right so but I'd
1:23:23like to have it so that like if um
1:23:25you're in a synagogue or you know
1:23:28wherever mosque or um Catholic church or
1:23:31Protestant church that that you might be
1:23:33sharing with your minister or priest
1:23:35that you're feeling you you and your
1:23:37spouse are having some tensions and they
1:23:40can say well here's a course that you
1:23:42can take do this at home and by doing
1:23:46that at
1:23:47and and then discuss with that person
1:23:49what you know more in a more facilitated
1:23:53way um what you've gotten from it and
1:23:55and be able to hear each other in that
1:23:57type of way. So, I'm just beginning to
1:24:00be in the process of looking for
1:24:01somebody who um has, you know, um a
1:24:04grant that can um where I can hire
1:24:07people who know the Jewish community,
1:24:09know the different communities well um
1:24:11and um and the different you know, the
1:24:14Boy Scouts and the um and so on. And so
1:24:16this can be distributed um you know,
1:24:18nationwide at least.
1:24:20>> Um so that's
1:24:21>> that was the legacy project just excuse
1:24:25me for for tearing up. No, no, that's
1:24:28exciting. That's exciting. The
1:24:29possibility of people because everything
1:24:33I've done to improve my understanding of
1:24:38myself, to make me more
1:24:44able to uh communicate with other
1:24:46people, to find
1:24:51to find solutions,
1:24:53uh also to find goodness.
1:24:56uh have been so rewarding and not just
1:25:00to me.
1:25:00>> Yes.
1:25:01>> But to my family.
1:25:02>> Yes. Absolutely.
1:25:03>> So
1:25:03>> as with the example you gave about
1:25:05rethinking Michaela.
1:25:07>> Yeah.
1:25:07>> Yeah. Just who didn't benefit from that.
1:25:10>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:25:11>> Right. Right. And now you know tomorrow
1:25:14morning I'll go over and see her little
1:25:15babies because my relationship is good
1:25:18with her. And I really thank the Lord
1:25:20for that because that is really what
1:25:22we're here for is to communicate,
1:25:25>> to love one another
1:25:27>> and to encourage one another and support
1:25:29one another and uh really encourage
1:25:33people to take risks but in a way that
1:25:35they feel they can handle.
1:25:37>> Yes.
1:25:38>> Yeah. And all of that is outlined in
1:25:39your books.
1:25:40>> Yes. So, I think you know uh this
1:25:44conversation hopefully will bring people
1:25:47to your books. If you were wanting to
1:25:49suggest which book people should start
1:25:51with, what would you say?
1:25:53>> Yeah, I'd say start with rolemate to
1:25:56soulmate, but really
1:26:00get the use the QR code to get the and
1:26:03do the online course at home. is to or
1:26:05come to the work the actual workshop in
1:26:08um which the next one is in October. But
1:26:10the um the important thing is to
1:26:14actually do the exercises. Um you can
1:26:17listen to the rolemate to soulmate or
1:26:20read it. Uh the chances are fairly good
1:26:22you'll get something out of it, but it
1:26:24won't have nearly the effect of actually
1:26:27doing the exercises with your partner.
1:26:29Well, I've read the book and it's pretty
1:26:32um you have to really
1:26:35listen to it and write about it and
1:26:39because it's a
1:26:40>> it's a process. There's a process in
1:26:42that book and just reading it, you're
1:26:45not part of the process.
1:26:46>> Yes.
1:26:46>> So, the excitement of it is sharing it
1:26:50with someone that you love and you
1:26:51really want to um
1:26:54>> flourish in your relationship.
1:26:56>> Yeah. So, what an opportunity to take
1:26:58for people. What an opportunity.
1:27:00>> Thank you. And then if you have
1:27:02children, um, girls or boys, the boy
1:27:04crisis book I strongly recommend that
1:27:07you can read, learn and implement in
1:27:11your life. Uh, that does not require the
1:27:13this type of exercises and it's really
1:27:16helpful for girls es if you have a
1:27:18daughter and especially if that daughter
1:27:20is getting to be nine 10 years of age
1:27:22and boys look like jerks to her. Um, it
1:27:25really is going to be a very healthy
1:27:28thing for her to see a different aspect
1:27:30of what is happening inside of boys
1:27:33because almost by definition, boys
1:27:35repress their feelings. And for you to
1:27:37know what's going on will lead boys to
1:27:40just really feel so much more connected
1:27:46with you and you will see them and have
1:27:48an attitude toward them that will be
1:27:51much more positive all your life. And
1:27:53just like you having a different
1:27:55attitude toward Michaela has changed
1:27:57your and everybody else's life around
1:27:59you. Um the ripple effect on that is
1:28:01enormous. And you feel so much better
1:28:04about yourself when somebody feels that
1:28:06the time they spent with you um it was
1:28:09time where they felt really understood.
1:28:14>> Thank you sir. Thank you.

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