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What Harvard & USC Just Learned About Protein — Transcript

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0:00When I was a young boy, I thought I had
0:02diet all figured out. And that is
0:05because Popeye told us all that you can
0:08fight off bullies and save the girl if
0:10you just eat spinach.
0:11>> It's my Popeye!
0:13>> My mom had a master's in biochem from
0:16Cornell, and she told me Popeye was
0:19right and that every mother and
0:21grandmother in the world would confirm.
0:23I became even more convinced I had it
0:26dialed when Jack LaLanne rose to fame
0:29with a Hollywood would star by promoting
0:31exercise and the Mediterranean diet. I
0:34was his golf caddy at the Orinda Country
0:36Club on weekends, and we had receipts.
0:39Back then, America ranked among the
0:41healthiest nations, ahead of Japan,
0:44Germany, and the UK for life expectancy.
0:47And we had low obesity. But then a very
0:50odd thing happened on the highway to the
0:52danger zone. We got obsessed by
0:55extremely [music] low-fat diets, and
0:57then extremely high-fat diets, and
0:59extremely high-carb diets, and extremely
1:01low-carb diets. And now we're obsessed
1:04with adding refined protein to
1:06ultra-processed food and calling it
1:08healthy.
1:08>> Highway to the danger zone.
1:13>> As we sloshed from one diet to another,
1:16I noticed there was one group that
1:18wasn't sloshing. Actual nutrition
1:20scientists. The trouble with them is
1:23they talk to each other behind paywalls
1:25in technical terms only a nutrition
1:28scientist can decipher. And
1:30unfortunately, none of them have the
1:32ability to talk to the public like this
1:34guy.
1:35>> When we were all in the caves, half of
1:37everyone born was dead before the age of
1:3930. Fast forward to 1840, that number
1:42went up to
1:4335. Everyone back then was eating
1:46organic. And [clears throat] the water
1:47was clear, the air ran pure, the the
1:50game was free-range. Science matters
1:53here. You'd be dead by the 30 unless
1:55some doctor came in and said we can
1:57increase your life expectancy using
1:59science.
2:00>> I resemble those remarks. Five times
2:03science has brought me back from the
2:05dead starting at age 27 when my appendix
2:08burst. Same age as my father's. And who
2:11knows if I would have died by now from
2:13polio or from an abscessed tooth because
2:15a horse kicked me in my canine tooth and
2:17broke the root. Actual nutrition
2:20scientists have made big advances over
2:22the last few decades like showing how
2:25amazing nuts and seeds turned out to be
2:27for health. Not many people saw that
2:29coming. But getting the word out is not
2:32their strength and so that became the
2:34mission of Viva longevity to find the
2:37best scientists and to help them tell
2:39their stories. And I had to come to USC
2:41to tell this one which brings me to this
2:44new paper on protein which is behind a
2:46paywall and written in deep scientific
2:49language. It caught my attention because
2:51the corresponding authors, Frank Hu and
2:54Valter Longo, are among the most
2:56respected nutrition scientists in the
2:59world. In my interview with Valter last
3:01year, he told me
3:03>> We're going to make the case soon enough
3:05that proteins doesn't mean anything,
3:07right? Doesn't mean anything.
3:09It cannot mean anything when you can
3:11have a five 10-fold difference.
3:13>> He told me this paper was coming and it
3:15would help explain it. So I reached out
3:17to the lead author, Mara Fonti. She
3:20isn't a celebrity doctor selling a
3:22supplement line. She's a rigorous
3:24scientist working in the trenches of
3:26Valter's lab. I have a pretty strong
3:29scientific background and I've gotten to
3:31interview some of the leading nutrition
3:33scientists in the world. But I had to
3:36hammer her with questions for days to
3:39translate this deep science into plain
3:41English. Here is what we uncovered.
3:44>> Am I now your most irritating person in
3:46the world?
3:47>> No.
3:48>> After slamming you all week long with
3:50these long emails?
3:51>> No, no, no. You wanted to go into, you
3:54know, more details, so.
3:55>> There was a lot of details to go into.
3:56That paper is dense. You have so much
3:59data on the mice and human data. I mean,
4:01usually papers have one or the other.
4:02You had both.
4:03>> It lasts about 7 years.
4:06>> 7 years?
4:07>> Yeah, 7 years work.
4:08>> So, you've been working on this
4:09particular paper for 7 years? Wow.
4:12Amazing.
4:13>> I mean, 6 year plus, you know,
4:15writing and having that published.
4:18>> So, Walter told me this paper was
4:19coming, but he wouldn't tell me what it
4:22was about other than it would explain
4:23amino acids quite a bit better. He would
4:25say, "Protein doesn't mean anything. The
4:27word protein, it's like fat doesn't mean
4:28anything. Is it lard or is it olive
4:30oil?"
4:31>> So, it's not really
4:33um
4:33the amount of amino acid. It's more the
4:36amino acid profile.
4:37>> Yeah.
4:37>> So, plant-based and amino animal-based
4:40protein basically had different amino
4:43acid profile. That's why it's really
4:45matter the source.
4:46>> Strikingly different. Shockingly
4:48different. I mean, I'm astounded,
4:50actually. You study both mice and
4:52humans. Let's start with the humans
4:54first. This may look a little bit like
4:56an eye chart to some people out there in
4:58podcast land, but there's a shocking
5:01line in here. Can you explain what this
5:03is?
5:04>> Our collaborators was Anti Malik and
5:07Frank Hu published a paper about protein
5:09intake and risk factor for type 2
5:11diabetes in this very big population,
5:14which is the Harvard cohort. They found
5:17that there was an increase in risk of
5:19type 2 diabetes only in the population
5:21with an higher increase of animal
5:23protein.
5:24But, they didn't see the same effect
5:26when the participant were consuming an
5:28higher intake of plant-based.
5:30>> So, I think this is one of the most
5:33important nutritional findings, and it
5:35drives the dietary guidelines for every
5:37country in the world except for
5:39America's new one. My sense is very few
5:41Americans understand this, and I think I
5:44know why. What this table shows is they
5:47divided the participants into five
5:49levels of protein consumption. The
5:51lowest quintile one got around 14% of
5:54their calories from protein. The highest
5:57quintile five got 21%.
6:00The participants were American where we
6:02have a culture of high animal protein
6:04consumption. So the consumption of plant
6:06protein as a percentage it was down
6:08around 30% or less. Here's the headline
6:11finding. Diabetes rates were double in
6:14the higher quintile even though the
6:16researchers noted many of the
6:18participants were seeking higher protein
6:20because they believed in our current
6:22protein obsession that it's healthier.
6:25This finding is not new. There have been
6:27decades of landmark studies showing
6:29similar results also for cancer and
6:32heart disease. So why do so few
6:34Americans know about this?
6:36I think the first reason is the big
6:38influencers who advocate high protein
6:41rarely mention studies like this. The
6:43beef industry is very proud of the
6:45something like $8 million annual budget
6:47they have to pay out influencers. They
6:49don't disclose who gets the money but I
6:53think a second reason is the beef
6:54industry are genius marketers so they
6:56know to shift the conversation from
6:58outcomes, how healthy are you, to
7:00mechanisms, like how much protein do
7:03plants really have? They have less so
7:05they must be less healthy, right? But
7:07that isn't what outcome data
7:09consistently shows.
7:11>> At the same time the population with the
7:13higher protein intake in general,
7:15especially the ones in animal protein
7:18intake, they also had an higher
7:20incidence of BMI but the higher intake
7:23of plant-based protein, they didn't show
7:25the same trend in terms of BMI. So we
7:28thought that this effect on overweight
7:30and obesity could be driven by specific
7:33amino acid, what we we have been seen in
7:35the mice and so we we thought that it
7:37could could have been applied to human
7:39too.
7:39>> Why Why you focus on methionine?
7:41>> We focus on methionine because it's an
7:44essential amino acid that has a direct
7:48molecular connection with specific
7:50nutrients and same pathway, in
7:52particular mTOR. So, this is one reason
7:55and the second one is because
7:57decades of literature show that
8:00methionine restriction improve like
8:02metabolic parameters, but also it's very
8:06powerful in extending longevity and
8:08lifespan. It's very powerful, but at the
8:11same time severe methionine restriction
8:14could lead to muscle wasting and
8:17frailty. So, when we started the diet,
8:20the longevity diet was modeled based on
8:23dietary patterns of population with
8:26exceptional longevity.
8:29Well, the longevity diet. Either from,
8:31you know, Mediterranean areas, in
8:33particular South of Italy, Sardinia, but
8:36also Greece or of Spain. And Okinawa, in
8:40Japan. So, it was modeled based on their
8:43diet, but at the same time it's shown to
8:46be relatively low in protein, but very
8:48low in methionine. And a level that was
8:51matching kind of the methionine
8:53restricted pattern. So, because we
8:56wanted healthy longevity, but also
8:58strength, we modulate this a single
9:01amino acid in the diet in order to have
9:03the diet been able to still produce the
9:06same metabolic benefits, but also
9:08preserve the muscle.
9:10>> When you say you moderate the
9:11methionine,
9:13did that mean you gave a
9:15methionine powder, some kind of protein
9:17powder?
9:18>> We had to formulate the the diet for the
9:20mice.
9:21This a number of ingredients that we had
9:23to carefully select. There are company
9:25where you can customize your diet for
9:28the mice. So, we
9:30basically sent them the ingredients we
9:33wanted them to to follow. And so, they
9:35were able to adjust the level of
9:37methionine in the way we want it. So
9:39>> on food?
9:41>> Not we they had to supplement.
9:43>> Oh, they had to supplement.
9:44>> Yeah, they had to supplement with a
9:45powder.
9:46>> Back to this chart, the thing that
9:48really stood out for me
9:50the diabetes rate doubled.
9:52Based on the Harvard studies
9:54>> Exactly.
9:55>> and health professionals. Doubled mainly
9:58by changing
10:00by eating more animal protein.
10:01>> It's also interesting that the
10:04participant in the quintile five are
10:06usually the ones that are they pay more
10:09attention to lifestyle.
10:10>> Yeah, that was a surprise to me. That
10:13you thought they were had more healthy
10:15user bias in the higher percentile
10:19because they thought protein was
10:20healthy.
10:22And so they were eating all this extra
10:25animal protein to get healthy and by
10:27doing so they were getting diabetes. You
10:29can get some insight into the healthy
10:31user bias by looking at the beverage
10:34consumption on this table. The higher
10:36protein consumers were drinking 74%
10:39fewer calories from sugar-sweetened
10:41beverages and 35% fewer from alcohol.
10:47>> And if you look at the total energy
10:49intake, there is a reduction of about
10:5110%.
10:52>> Of what?
10:52>> Total energy intake. So basically
10:55>> Yeah.
10:55>> They were eating fewer calories.
10:57>> But they're getting an higher prevalence
10:59of BMI and overweight.
11:02>> Yeah, but I thought calories in,
11:04calories out. And you're saying well, it
11:07doesn't seem to be the case if you're
11:08getting too much methionine. Is that
11:10your
11:10>> Yeah, that's
11:11>> hypothesis?
11:13>> Yeah.
11:14That's why they
11:16re-analyzed the data for us and they
11:17they basically measured all the amino
11:19acid profile.
11:20>> I see.
11:21>> And they found that specifically in the
11:22higher animal group, there was increase
11:25of 81.5%
11:27of methionine.
11:28>> There is another popular podcast that
11:31interviews lead authors of landmark
11:33papers, The Proof with Simon Hill. Simon
11:37has a master's in nutrition science, and
11:40I think he's incredibly sharp. He
11:42interviewed Andrea Glenn, who led a
11:44fascinating study of the effect of plant
11:47to animal protein ratio and its effect
11:50on heart disease. This chart shows their
11:53key finding.
11:55The two bars on the left represent
11:57people who got about 30% of their
11:59protein from plant sources. The two bars
12:02on the right represent people who got
12:03about 60% of protein calories from
12:06plants.
12:07You can see the reduction in risk was
12:09much greater when the plant to animal
12:11protein ratio was higher. The other
12:14thing that made a difference was that in
12:17diets with higher overall protein
12:19consumption, the risk reduction from
12:22substituting more plant protein for
12:24animal protein was much higher.
12:27Both those results were the same as with
12:30Mara's paper. I traded long emails with
12:33Andrea and discussed them with Mara.
12:36Their takeaway is diets high in animal
12:38protein are clearly risky, but diets
12:41high in protein that are based on
12:43high-quality plant protein may not be.
12:46>> We didn't look at that specifically, and
12:48that's something that we're going to do
12:50for another paper that's going to come
12:51out. So, I think what's happening with
12:53this protein density finding is that
12:54they're eating more legumes and nuts.
12:57And then we know that those are really
12:58good for cardiovascular disease
13:00preventions.
13:01>> In the case of Andrea's study, which was
13:02based on heart disease, the riskiest
13:05source of protein was red meat, and nuts
13:08were the best at reducing that risk. For
13:11example, replacing just 3% of calories
13:14from red meat with nuts cut heart
13:17disease risk by 20%. That's incredible.
13:21Imagine swapping 25 or 50% of your
13:25calories from red meat for nuts, not
13:28just 3%. The numbers were also big for
13:31swapping poultry and dairy for nuts,
13:33just not that big. Okay, I know some of
13:36you are thinking, "Hey, I'm too young to
13:38get heart disease and diabetes, but I
13:40need abs and I'm working on my bench
13:42press, so I need meat, not nuts, right?"
13:45And that brings us to tomorrow's mouse
13:48studies. I'm usually suspicious of
13:50animal studies, but I have to admit the
13:52monkey and pig feeding studies I covered
13:55previous were absolutely foundational in
13:58understanding how we get to clogged
14:00arteries and how to get them to open
14:02back up. Dean Ornish wrote that those
14:05papers inspired him to do his famous
14:07studies in reversing clogged arteries in
14:09humans.
14:10>> What were you getting from the mouse
14:12studies that you couldn't get from human
14:14studies?
14:14>> So, animal studies let you do what you
14:17cannot do with human. For instance, for
14:19example, follow the lifespan.
14:21>> Cuz their lifespan is short, so
14:23everything's accelerated.
14:25>> Yes. So, still long in for mice, which
14:28is like around 30 months. It's depend on
14:30the strain. Also, tissue biopsies, for
14:33example.
14:34>> The other thing about humans,
14:36these Harvard studies are free living.
14:38And it'd it'd be nice Sometimes I say,
14:41"Oh, I wish these nurses would eat more
14:43beans."
14:44Nurses and health professionals, but
14:46they they don't eat a lot of legumes.
14:48They're like Americans or something.
14:51And they eat a lot of meat and not that
14:52many legumes. But with the mice you can
14:54control exactly what it is they're
14:56eating. And on a randomized control
14:58trial with humans, there's still the
15:00problem of adherence. Adherence could be
15:03good in the beginning and then fade
15:05later on. Here you show four different
15:08diets for the mice, but you actually had
15:11a fifth, right? You had the FMD diet.
15:14So, can you explain what's in each one
15:16of these diets?
15:17>> Before we learn which were the the
15:20benefits of the longevity diet, we had
15:22to compare to popular diet that in
15:24reality people usually follow. So,
15:27they're not just random diet.
15:29The control diet, it's a just
15:31commercially available diet. They are
15:33made to to make that the mice happy and
15:36healthy.
15:37>> You characterize it as pesco-vegetarian.
15:39>> It's a pesco-vegetarian.
15:41>> So, it's like Valter's longevity diet.
15:43>> Exactly, but
15:44>> So, not exactly what Americans are
15:46eating.
15:46>> No.
15:47>> It's pretty healthy.
15:48>> It's pretty healthy, but it's higher in
15:50protein intake. It's double the
15:52longevity diet.
15:53>> Oh, it is. Why?
15:54>> Usually diet for mice are in a range of
15:5720 25% of protein. The longevity diet is
16:0112. So, it's half.
16:02>> Yeah.
16:03>> So, but it's made with pretty healthy
16:05ingredients. So, the only difference it
16:08kind of the protein content.
16:10>> I see.
16:11>> Because it has protein from fish meal,
16:13soy, and whey protein. But, as you said,
16:16it's a very
16:17healthy diet.
16:18>> Although, some people may quibble with
16:20the isolated proteins. Some people may
16:22say, "Well, whey and soy protein
16:25is a refined food." But, anyway, that's
16:28what the diet was for these mice.
16:29>> Yes.
16:30>> That was the control diet.
16:31>> That you usually need to have when you
16:33run an experiment on mice because you
16:35want to you want to make sure that you
16:37are comparing with something that it's
16:39beneficial for the mice.
16:41>> How did they figure out that it's
16:42beneficial for mice? They've just known
16:43this for years?
16:44>> Yeah. Yeah.
16:45>> Figured it out over years.
16:46>> There are different control diet. It's
16:48not the only one. That this is the one
16:50that for us was
16:52a pretty good control because it's a
16:54like a pescetarian or
16:56not pesco-vegetarian like the longevity
16:58diet.
16:59>> I see. And then came the keto diet.
17:01>> It's a very popular diet.
17:02>> In your human studies, the graphs that
17:04you showed, it it wasn't didn't do very
17:06well. Didn't do well in weight control
17:08or anything.
17:09>> It yes, even though we tried to make it
17:12very healthy. Salmon, chicken, nuts,
17:16eggs, fat from avocado, coconut oil, and
17:19olive oil.
17:20>> But there is an apple in there.
17:22>> And some greens. 8% is carbohydrate.
17:25>> I see.
17:25>> It's very high-fat diet.
17:27>> Do mice go into ketosis? Do they have
17:29ketones and things?
17:30>> yeah, they do.
17:31>> And could you measure that or did you
17:32measure that?
17:33>> We we measure and they are very
17:35>> was enough for them to go into ketosis?
17:37>> Um yes, basically they they had the
17:39higher level of keto ketone bodies
17:41compared to the other diet.
17:43>> And then you put them on the everyday
17:45American diet, the Western diet.
17:48Hamburgers and cheese and steak. They
17:51must have been pretty happy mice in the
17:53beginning.
17:54>> They were very happy. We made the diet
17:56with food from fast food.
17:58>> Mhm.
17:59>> Like burgers, bacon, and buns. But also
18:03cheese, eggs, beef.
18:05>> Yeah.
18:06>> French fries.
18:07>> White bread.
18:08>> And white white bread.
18:09>> French fries and some kind of What's
18:11this drink?
18:12>> It's a ketchup.
18:13>> Ketchup?
18:14>> Yes.
18:15>> Oh, I see, for the French fries.
18:17Oh, well, that would make my wife happy.
18:19I don't know about mice.
18:20>> They they were happy actually at the
18:22beginning.
18:23>> They were happy until they got
18:24unhealthy.
18:26Just like Americans. Except you're more
18:28delicate in your language than I am.
18:30[laughter]
18:31Okay, and then came the longevity diet
18:34and it looked like
18:36those are green cubes there that the
18:37mice are getting.
18:38>> Exactly.
18:39>> Beans and vegetables, olive oil, some
18:42potatoes, carrots?
18:44>> Yes. Carbs from potatoes and legumes,
18:47fish meal, a huge portion was from
18:50healthy fat, olive oil, and fish oil.
18:52>> Just like healthy populations all around
18:54the world. Um
18:56Some people are going to be outraged
18:57that you're doing this on animals, but I
19:00was at Petco yesterday.
19:02I saw these white mice. What kind of
19:05mice did you use? AT3 that doesn't mean
19:08anything.
19:08>> Hatrick mice.
19:09>> Yeah.
19:09>> Which stand for uh
19:12heterozygous mice.
19:13>> I see. What do they look like?
19:14>> Basically, it's a crossing that I from
19:17uh crossing four different genetic
19:19background. So, you get a population of
19:23uh genetic diverse mice, the way humans
19:26are diverse. They are a gold standard
19:28for aging studies. I mean, usually they
19:31have only a single genetic background,
19:33and they are like identical to each
19:36other. So, it's important because they
19:38can be more sensitive to develop certain
19:41disease.
19:42Some of them, like metabolic disease or
19:44certain type of cancer. In the case of
19:47the het-3 mice, they can display like
19:49disease from um any kind of disease like
19:52the human can.
19:53>> What do they look like? Are they the
19:54kind of mice that you'd buy at a pet
19:56store, or do they look different?
19:57>> I'm so excited. I've wanted a mouse
19:59since I was 3 years old. I'm 17 turning
20:0118 this year,
20:03and I do not have a mouse yet. Like, I
20:05already have a hamster. I want a mouse.
20:08>> So cute.
20:10>> Pretty cute girl.
20:11>> Um actually, the hat can be different
20:14colors.
20:15>> Do you get attached to them?
20:16>> I I get to know them. Uh but in the in
20:18the case of this study, they were too
20:20many.
20:21>> Oh, yeah.
20:21>> Hundred and hundreds mice.
20:23>> So, you didn't name them and
20:24>> We we we couldn't, but uh we we we are
20:27very careful like handling them.
20:29>> As far as caged animals, are they
20:31relatively happy or you're not torturing
20:33them in some way except giving them the
20:35American diet?
20:36>> No,
20:37my mice actually are happy because I
20:39just give them the the diet. So, it it's
20:42pretty nice experiment for them. They
20:45like to stay with others. They are
20:47social uh animals.
20:49>> Well, I can understand people, you know,
20:50being worried about, you know, animals
20:52in a cage, but
20:53when you think about turkeys and
20:55chickens and pigs and everything that we
20:57raise for food, these have to be a
20:58thousand times happier than any of
21:00those, and we just shrug with those and
21:02eat them.
21:03So, I don't I don't know. But, anyway,
21:05you showed four diets here, and then
21:07there was a fifth one that you showed in
21:08the data, which is the FMD. Can you
21:10explain FMD?
21:12>> Yes, the fasting mimicking diet is not
21:14there because it's a
21:15all these diet were at the administrated
21:18chronically. They were everyday at
21:20libitum diet. Fasting mimicking diet is
21:23it's a different story because it's
21:24>> Once a month.
21:25>> In this case, twice a month.
21:27>> Twice a month cuz they're mice and
21:28things are happening faster or
21:30>> We can keep them in twice cycle a month
21:32if they're capable to regain the weight
21:35during the refeeding. If If we see
21:37especially with aging, they start losing
21:39weight. So, we need to be careful with
21:43fasting and fasting mimicking diet.
21:45>> Fasting mimicking means you just reduce
21:47the calories of their normal diet.
21:48>> It's a restricted calorie restricted
21:50plan for 4-5 days.
21:56>> I forgot to put my phone on uh
21:59People accuse me of forgetting to
22:01put my phone on do not disturb.
22:04That is from my 15-year-old
22:06granddaughter, Penny, and
22:09we chose that tone together. I get a big
22:12kick out of my tones. Uh she and I are
22:14going to Paris in a couple of days for 2
22:16weeks uh with one of her cousins who's
22:18also 15 years old.
22:20>> No no problem.
22:20>> What were we talking about? I have
22:21Alzheimer's. Oh, FMD, yeah.
22:23>> It's a calorie restricted plan that
22:26lasts 4-5 days. It's a fasting mimicking
22:29because you kind of trigger your body to
22:31think that it's fasting but it's not.
22:33It's not really fasting. So, it's
22:34capable to reproduce same metabolic
22:37benefits of a water fasting program.
22:39>> I have a love-hate relationship with it
22:42because I hate doing it. Cuz I'm a big
22:44guy, 200 lb, and I'm active. I walk my
22:48dog 3 miles in the morning and
22:506 miles at night and then I do exercise
22:52and everything and it's like
22:54really, you're giving me 800 calories a
22:56day? I'm going to die. And And I think
22:58Walter Walter wants me to be less active
23:01during the FMDs, but I like to go out
23:03and walk my dog and listen to audio and
23:06everything. So, I just suffer for 5
23:08days. I cheat a little bit and eat some
23:10celery.
23:12>> It's not easy.
23:13>> It's not easy for me.
23:14>> But it's feasible.
23:15>> For other people, it's easier than it is
23:17for me, but I suffer.
23:19What do the mice do? Do they get less
23:20active or
23:21>> Not really. They tend to be very active,
23:24especially the male. We notice the male
23:26are more active than female.
23:29>> So, the data that Walter has been
23:30producing through all this research on
23:32FMDs in humans is astonishing.
23:34Intuitively, I would have thought you're
23:37going to kill these patients who are on
23:38chemotherapy and are losing muscle mass
23:40and everything else by putting them on
23:41an FMD. What Walter, what are you
23:42thinking? This is crazy.
23:44But it didn't turn out that way. The
23:45data is just so non-intuitive for FMDs,
23:48and I guess it is for mice, too.
23:50>> In terms of lifespan, for example.
23:52>> I'm holding up a lifespan chart here for
23:54the mice.
23:55>> Basically, the graph show the
23:56probability of survival.
23:58>> The keto diet ones were dying at 1,000
24:00days.
24:01>> The the western diet.
24:02>> Oh, I have the wrong Oh, the colors. I
24:04see. Western diet. You're right.
24:06>> 200 days earlier than the control diet
24:09and longevity diet.
24:10>> And 200 days in mouse in human years is
24:14what?
24:14>> 20 years.
24:15>> Wow.
24:17That's a difference. That's pretty
24:18shocking, actually.
24:19>> It it was, especially because at the
24:21beginning, they seems like to be happy,
24:25but they they body weight start to
24:26decline
24:28very rapidly. So, that means that they
24:30were getting sick
24:33they died.
24:33>> Just like Americans.
24:35>> The longevity diet and control diet are
24:37the ones that live longer. They both
24:40have the same maximum lifespan.
24:42So, they perform pretty well, especially
24:44considering that we start the the
24:46experiment with the mice were 60 65 year
24:49old in human life
24:52with a diet that was half protein than
24:56the control diet.
24:58Without getting fair frail or
25:02without losing any muscle mass.
25:05>> The longevity diet.
25:06>> Yeah.
25:07>> Supplemented with methionine.
25:10Meant that they didn't get frail.
25:12>> No.
25:13>> And they lived a long time.
25:14>> Yes.
25:16>> The next chart is frailty.
25:17>> So here the mice are very old. And you
25:21see that in this specific graph the
25:23frailty index show a significant
25:26increase of frailty especially in the
25:28western diet. When we measured that the
25:31frailty index at 23 months both western
25:33and ketogenic diet show to be more frail
25:36than the control diet.
25:38>> But the one that stands out to me is
25:39grip strength. What's going on with grip
25:41strength?
25:42>> So basically when we assess the frail
25:45the mice is not just a single test.
25:47There are multiple tests like the
25:49frailty index or the grip strength the
25:52rotor rod that give us information about
25:55strength and function or motor
25:56coordination. In this case the grip
25:58strength
25:59>> said rotor rod?
26:01>> Rotor rod.
26:02>> What is that?
26:03>> It's a test that give you information
26:05about the motor coordination of the mice
26:07and
26:08is not in that panel but still the
26:10longevity diet is the one that performed
26:13the best and also in the grip strength
26:16you see is increased significantly
26:18compared to the control diet. So it
26:21means that they maintained their
26:23strength and their function even though
26:25they are 23 months old with a diet that
26:28eats lower in
26:30a protein intake.
26:31>> What's your hypothesis on what would
26:33happen if you started the mice earlier?
26:35>> Um we
26:37we think that if we had started the
26:40intervention earlier probably also we we
26:42had seen
26:43significant result in terms of lifespan.
26:46We think that because any nutritional
26:48intervention that showed to be you know
26:51effective in increasing the lifespan are
26:53very powerful in increase the lifespan
26:55if they start earlier.
26:57>> The sooner the better.
26:58>> The sooner the better. They still work
27:01even later, but they they kind of reduce
27:03this this this power like the later you
27:06start.
27:06>> So, it reminds me a little bit of the
27:07famous British smoking study that lasted
27:10for 50 years. I have a real interest in
27:13epidemiology. One of the best
27:14epidemiologists in the world is Richard
27:16Peto, I think, at Oxford. And he was the
27:19epidemiologist on the British doctor
27:20study.
27:21And he'd very dramatically said, "Well,
27:23what we learned is smoking kills, but
27:25quitting works."
27:27And quitting works so well that if you
27:29do it early, it's as if you never
27:31smoked.
27:32>> If [clears throat] you stop before the
27:33age of 40, preferably well before 40,
27:36then you'd avoid more than 90% of the
27:37risk. And the people who stopped at
27:39about 30, they'd avoid about 97% of the
27:41risk. They're pretty well like
27:43non-smokers. So, stopping works. Even
27:46later on it works, but the earlier you
27:47stop the better.
27:48>> So, that brings up weight.
27:50>> With the longevity diet, very
27:51interesting thing is that they were able
27:53to keep stable the the the body weight
27:55until the end. If you see the other
27:57groups, these are are male and usually
28:00at 20 months the body weight start to
28:02decline. As you see, clearly the control
28:04diet, the standard show you how it's
28:05supposed to go. So, FMD goes like the
28:08standard diet. It means that they were
28:10able to regain weight after every cycle,
28:13which was pretty good. But the other two
28:14diet, like the keto and the Western
28:17diet, as you see, in 3 months they gain
28:20a lot of weight, but after 3 months on
28:22diet the body weight start to decline.
28:24In particular, the ketogenic diet
28:26actually here. It means that they were
28:28starting to get sick and and dying.
28:32>> Now, let's talk about fat mass and lean
28:35mass because that was pretty incredible.
28:39I mean, that was kind of a shock
28:40finding, I think. Can you walk us
28:41through what's going on?
28:43>> We measured the fat mass and lean mass
28:45after 3 months of diet, but also after
28:476, but here it's after 3 months. And you
28:50see how fat mass is significantly
28:54increased in Western and ketogenic diet,
28:56but it's reduced in longevity diet and
28:58FMD. The concern is what if they also
29:02are losing muscle, but actually the test
29:04that we run showed that all of them
29:07preserve or they lost the same amount of
29:10mass.
29:11So, they were capable to maintain the
29:14the the lean mass.
29:16>> This is the most information-packed
29:18paper I have ever studied. I could have
29:21spent all day in that studio asking more
29:24about all the things. I mean, oh my
29:27gosh, look at all this. My mind is
29:30totally blown. No wonder it took her
29:32team 7 years to collect and analyze all
29:36this data. So, what does this actually
29:39mean to you and I in our daily lives? I
29:42think it sheds light on the biggest
29:43black box in all of nutrition, protein.
29:47Everybody has a different impression of
29:48what that word means, and usually the
29:51answer is more is better. It dominates
29:54the design of our meals. If more is
29:57always the answer, how in the world can
29:59we explain this landmark heat map from
30:02five universities in Canada, Denmark,
30:04and the US? It shows foods that slow
30:07aging in green and ones that accelerate
30:10it in red. Look at poultry in red below
30:13sugar-sweetened beverages for aging.
30:15Moura has very compelling data both in
30:18humans and in mice to show that just
30:21like with carbs and fat, it's not the
30:23amount that's the central factor, it's
30:25the type. What makes Moura's paper
30:28exceptional is she shows the power of
30:31staying in the Goldilocks zone for
30:32methionine. Too much methionine,
30:35premature aging. Too little methionine,
30:37frailty. The Goldilocks zone for
30:40methionine, the perfect body
30:42composition. You can have abs. I made
30:45this chart of the amount of methionine
30:47per 100 calories of common foods. Look
30:50at chicken up there on top. That
30:52wouldn't be so bad if we followed the
30:54dietary guidelines for healthy countries
30:56and moderated, but instead we chicken
30:58maxed and quadrupled our consumption
31:01since 1961.
31:03Okay, you say, but look at salmon up
31:05there with beef. If Mar is right, why do
31:08some pescetarians live so long? One
31:11answer is it's a rare person who
31:13overconsumes fish, and the great foodie
31:15Jim Gaffigan knows why.
31:17>> Cuz fish is disgusting.
31:19>> [laughter]
31:20>> Who's the first person to walk into a
31:22harbor and go, "Hey, whatever reeks in
31:23here, let's eat that."
31:27>> So, what's the takeaway? If someone's
31:29following Valter Longo's longevity diet,
31:32and it's primarily plants, 2 days a week
31:35fish, are they going to be low in
31:36methionine? Do they have to supplement?
31:38>> No.
31:39>> Why no?
31:40>> You can get all the nutrients from what
31:41you eat. Of course, there are special
31:44categories like elderly or strict vegans
31:47that might need a supplementation, but
31:50you can get everything from what you
31:52eat.
31:53>> And you need some anti-methionine
31:55supplementation off Amazon.
31:58Reduces your methionine, you live longer
32:00if you eat all these animal foods.
32:02>> Exactly.
32:02>> You should invent that. Except then
32:04people would feel free to eat animal
32:06foods.
32:06>> They are already.
32:08>> So, what about them vegans? The thing
32:11is, I am vegan for at least 10 reasons.
32:15One is the first 10 years of my career
32:17was in Earth Science, and I still have
32:20PTSD for what Earth scientists see. And
32:24for some reason, not even David
32:26Attenborough, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill
32:28Nye the Science Guy, celebrities, heads
32:31of nations, and the UN have been able to
32:34get the public to see what we see. I
32:36will never be able to understand that
32:38until the day I die. For those of you
32:41who say, "Wait, this is the guy who flew
32:44to Paris in record heat and he's
32:47lecturing us about global warming?
32:49Hypocrite." It's true. I still fly to be
32:52with my family and interview scientists.
32:54And if you want to rip me in the
32:56comments section, that's very fair. But
32:59I think it's also fair to say that
33:01agriculture is an enormous contributor
33:04to destruction of the planet and every
33:06one of us has the power to do something
33:07about that. I gave a TEDx talk about it.
33:10But if you think my dietary beliefs are
33:13influenced by veganism, you would be
33:15wrong. I have never been able to find
33:17data that indicates that a 100% whole
33:20food plant-based diet is healthier than
33:23Valter Longo's longevity diet, which
33:25indicates fish twice a week. But what is
33:28a good vegan diet? If you find this
33:30research to be credible as I do, then it
33:32means getting enough methionine to
33:34prevent frailty.
33:36And that means making sure that nuts,
33:39seeds, and soy are in our diets. And
33:42that is going to spawn a lot of debunk
33:44videos of me from members of the
33:46plant-based community whose heroes are
33:49people like Nathan Pritikin and Dr.
33:51McDougall.
33:52Those are my heroes, too. I just think
33:54they formed their ideas decades ago when
33:57we didn't have a studies like Mora's.
33:59Science has moved on.
34:02So that brings up the final question.
34:04What inspires Mora to spend seven years
34:07in obscurity working on a paper like
34:09this? She's not getting rich or famous.
34:11She's not funded by industry. So why
34:14does she do it?
34:15>> I'm going to Italy.
34:16>> Oh, you are. That's where you're from.
34:18>> Sardinia.
34:19>> Sardinia. Oh, wow.
34:21>> Where centenarian come from.
34:23>> Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.
34:24>> I joined Valter Longo's because I've
34:26been surrounded with this longevity my
34:29the entire life. My great grandmother
34:31was a centenarian, so I always been very
34:34interested in the reason behind like
34:37someone can live 100.
34:39>> Yeah, fascinating.
34:40>> So, I was always been fascinated with
34:42the longevity, aging.

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