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What Game Studios Still Get Wrong About DTC — Transcript

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0:00[music]
0:04Welcome to the Navit Gaming Podcast,
0:07where it is our mission to explore the
0:08business and future of video games. We
0:12bring together the industry's brightest
0:13builders, investors, and thinkers to
0:15keep a pulse on current events, dissect
0:18emerging trends and games, share lessons
0:20learned, and have a great time.
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0:25growing ecosystem which ranges from free
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0:29advisory services. For more information,
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1:16or check out the link in the show notes.
1:18Now, let's jump into the episode.
1:21Hello everyone. I'm your host Devin
1:22Becker and today I'm delighted to be
1:24joined by David Stelzer, CEO of
1:26Appcharge. Appch charge is an AI native
1:29DTC platform trusted by Top Grossing
1:31Games. And today we're going to explore
1:32some interesting data and predictions
1:34around DTC related to a recent report
1:36released by Appcharge. But just to start
1:38things off real quick, uh David, could
1:40you give us just a quick overview of
1:41your background and Appch charge?
1:43>> Yeah, absolutely. Um I've been around
1:45the gaming business for quite some time
1:47now, about 30 years. um started off as
1:50an attorney and then moved over to
1:52becoming an agent where I helped uh game
1:55makers find means to make their games,
1:57get their money, put their presentations
1:58together. moved to Epic Games for about
2:02eight years where I ran the Unreal
2:03Engine business for Epic all through
2:06Fortnite and then moved into the direct
2:09to consumer space on the payment side
2:11was the president of Exola for two years
2:14and have moved over to uh Appcharge uh
2:17almost a year ago now at this point.
2:19>> Definitely a lot of interesting stuff
2:20going on then from from all your former
2:22stuff as well as your current. So
2:24>> yeah, must must be interesting to watch
2:25from the from the side. It's [snorts]
2:27been a journey. I've gotten to I would
2:29say I've gotten to touch almost every
2:31stage of of the business from uh
2:34ideating what you want to make through,
2:37you know, getting the basics of making
2:38that thing to finding capital to make
2:41it, the production cycle. And now is the
2:44great part. That's this post-release and
2:46making money portion.
2:48>> Something everyone wants to do at this
2:49point, especially in the games industry
2:51right now. um you just uh you just you
2:54guys just released uh an interesting
2:55report that we're kind of like focusing
2:56on a little bit at the beginning here.
2:57Why don't you just kind of quickly tell
2:59about the report and and kind of some
3:01maybe high level things about what it
3:02mentioned.
3:03>> Yeah, it's available for people to read
3:05and uh it's basically a post report
3:08coming out of GDC and what we saw at GDC
3:10this year back in March. Uh but
3:13summarizing all of that data and the
3:16title of this report kind of says it
3:18all. direct to consumer is already a 17
3:20billion mark 17 billion market for
3:23mobile gaming. Uh and then it goes on to
3:26break down what we're seeing within that
3:28mobile market. Um how much revenue is
3:31there, where the revenue is coming from,
3:33how people are making that money, etc.
3:37>> And where can people find this report?
3:40>> You can find it at our website on
3:41appcharge.com.
3:43>> Perfect. Well, uh, one of the things I
3:45found interesting, you know, going
3:46through the report was, uh, that 52
3:48respondents or 52% of respondents still
3:51haven't made significant changes to
3:52their monetization strategy. Why do you
3:55see more than half the industry just
3:56seeming to stand still on monetization
3:58here?
3:59>> I think there's a couple reasons here. I
4:01think one of those reasons is uh,
4:04they're happy with the way that things
4:05are going. I think organizationally they
4:08haven't quite wrapped their head around
4:10what's necessary to do it. I think it's
4:12a very difficult thing to do. Uh I think
4:15fear of what's going to hap happen from
4:19the platform side. Would there be
4:21retaliation? Will I lose my organics or
4:23things to that effect? Uh will I confuse
4:26my consumer in that regard? Will I turn
4:28them out of my business? I think all of
4:30those things help to make that up.
4:32>> Makes a lot of sense. Definitely a lot
4:33of concerns there. Um, and you guys
4:36split the field into innovators,
4:37operators, and late adopters. With 62%
4:40of people showing up behind the curve,
4:42what actually separates the 14% pulling
4:44ahead? Is it is it budget, talent,
4:46timing, something structural, or just
4:48not caring as much about those those
4:50risks?
4:51>> I think timing and early adoption is
4:53really proving to win like it does in a
4:55lot of other places. You have uh it's
4:59different though. I think in like in
5:01certain places where you don't have a
5:02crowded field, you can get ahead.
5:05TOC doesn't really matter for that. But
5:07what is winning is the fact that people
5:09are trying something different than what
5:12their competitors might be trying. And
5:13we see this really making a big
5:15difference in areas like social casino.
5:17And so the early early adopters here are
5:21really pulling ahead. Um, they're
5:23showing that they can get pretty large
5:25percentages of their business moved to
5:27direct to consumer because they've been
5:29doing this for a bit. They've trained
5:30their consumer about how to go into the
5:32direct to consumer channels and get
5:35better deals on the things that they
5:36want, which makes them enjoy their games
5:39more, play for longer, and ultimately
5:42spend more time and money with that
5:44product.
5:46>> Definitely sounds like a win-win,
5:47assuming you can navigate the the
5:49hurdles and everything there.
5:51>> Correct.
5:52Well, in that topic though, like I think
5:55a lot of the hesitation sometimes comes
5:57around just understanding DC DTC. I know
5:59we've talked about a lot uh at Navic and
6:01I think it's something that I mean
6:03everyone should be paying attention to
6:04whether they're doing it or not, but
6:06only like a quarter of respondents to
6:08that uh survey said they're truly
6:10confident in their DTC understanding.
6:12Where's like the biggest blind spot you
6:14see and and I think studios like maybe
6:16think they get but they don't or just
6:18just some of these misunderstandings? I
6:21think because it's still, you know, it
6:23it's become a more accepted piece of the
6:26business, but when you're not in it
6:29doing it every day and looking at it
6:31from the outside, you have a very narrow
6:34view of what it is and how it works. So,
6:36you think, okay, I I build a website and
6:39comes my web store and then, you know,
6:42uh my customers just move there and it's
6:44great. Um and then you want you wonder
6:47well what if they don't and then you
6:49know I built this thing and I built it
6:51and they didn't come but the promise was
6:52they would come and they didn't come. Um
6:55the people who are successful here
6:57realize that this is another line of
7:01marketing and UA and what the things
7:03that they need to do in order to move
7:06customers to a place in order to train
7:08customers to a place in order to make it
7:10part of the customer loop of how they
7:13behave uh when they're playing and and
7:16interacting with your your product. And
7:19so new teams need to be built for this.
7:22In addition to new teams, you need uh
7:24different ways of doing your marketing,
7:26different ways of doing uh your UA
7:30that's specific to getting people into
7:32web stores or getting people to pay off
7:35store. So you're you're retraining them
7:37to a certain extent. And I think a lot
7:41of companies see that as either a lot of
7:43work that they're not ready for. um they
7:46think that to build that team, maybe
7:48they don't have the money to hire yet or
7:51the the bandwidth to hire for that or
7:55they they just don't understand what's
7:57going to go into that uh
8:00having this other kind of thing on the
8:01side and they just they're they're
8:04afraid to attack it at this time.
8:06Do you find yourself having to do a lot
8:08of education or like appar as a whole on
8:11these subjects? I mean training them or
8:13like just better educating them on the
8:15the subject.
8:16>> It's gotten easier over time, right? So
8:18the ones who are in uh well, let's let's
8:21back up even like I don't have to
8:23explain direct to consumer from its
8:26beginning to everybody anymore. You
8:28know, there was a time and it wasn't too
8:30long ago where it's like what do you
8:31mean direct to consumer in games? you
8:32can't do that because and now it's
8:36become more of a what are the different
8:38ways that I can do it and how can I do
8:40it without breaking the rules while I do
8:44and so that that's become a bit easier
8:46to explain the rules haven't fully fared
8:49themselves out completely so we work
8:51within what we have at the moment uh but
8:54that's part of our job at upcharge is to
8:55explain those to the customer uh where
8:58they can play where they can't play
8:59where if they play it could be a little
9:01bit more risky
9:02Uh, and then it's also to help train
9:04them. What does a proper stack look
9:06like? So, what do you need to do this?
9:09What do you need to do it? Well, what's
9:11the part that you do? What's the part we
9:13do, etc.
9:14>> What is the the part that you do? Just
9:16to be clear for people that aren't
9:17familiar with Appcharge.
9:18>> It's magic. No, [laughter]
9:22we The thing is, you know, there's a
9:25number of companies who do what we do.
9:27Um, I worked for another one of them.
9:30What I find that's special about
9:32Appcharge is it's the only company that
9:34I see in this space that the technology
9:38and the people that are here to give the
9:41advice that they give have made these
9:43types of games before in their career.
9:45And therefore, our stack is built from
9:47game makers who have released these
9:49types of games who understand what it
9:51takes to do real monetization,
9:54understand what it takes to do real
9:55payment processes and and the M process,
9:58the immersion of record process and
10:00ultimately web stores and how they need
10:02to continue to grow and evolve uh over
10:05time. So I think that that's kind of
10:09Appcharg's superpower in that regard.
10:12And then we advise the companies based
10:14on what they're doing in terms here's
10:16what we see through a swath companies we
10:19work with who are the top top companies
10:21in the market and what's working within
10:24all of these groups and we can segment
10:26that you know what's working in mobile
10:28games what's working within uh casual
10:31mobile what's working within casino uh
10:34what are the nuances we've seen that
10:36[clears throat] others have tried that
10:38are making progress on and through that,
10:42you know, we can help them build things
10:44into their stack that help them uh get
10:47out ahead of their competition and
10:49ultimately keep engaging with their
10:51consumer better because that's the
10:53ultimate goal here, right? Is we want to
10:55make something that number one helps the
10:58company build more net revenue because
11:00they're saving money off the platform
11:02fees, which is the promise of DDC. But
11:05the the uh unexpected thing that's
11:08happened through that as well is you're
11:10now keeping all the information
11:11regarding your player. You can have a
11:13direct relationship with your player.
11:15You can figure out how to segment your
11:17player better to give better offers to
11:19each of those different players, which
11:20is what will help you. And then in
11:22addition to that, not only you're
11:24getting the the market economics of the
11:26better net, now you're getting happier
11:28customers who tay longer. You tend to
11:31spend more. And so your gross revenue is
11:33going up at the same time your net is.
11:35And it's a win-win there.
11:36>> Well, that makes sense. It I mean, it
11:38sounds like a lot of it also is not just
11:39the service, but like best practices. Uh
11:42especially when you're dealing with I
11:43mean, are you dealing with like a lot of
11:45people that are new to DC? Are you
11:47dealing with people that have done some
11:48and are looking for just a different
11:50platform? Like how much would you say is
11:52is kind of new versus experienced? I
11:54would say it's probably about 60 to 70%
11:58uh experienced people that we are
12:00transitioning into a better experience
12:03with about 30% that are completely new
12:06to the space. Um and they're not new to
12:09monetization. They're they have very
12:11very successful game products on the
12:13market, but we're helping to make them
12:15more profitable. We're helping them to
12:18kind of get into this scenario of how
12:20they control, you know, dealing with
12:22their customer, how they control the
12:24flow of information, how they track
12:26spend, how they market to people. Uh
12:30they create a bifurcation almost of like
12:32different types of UA, right? of you
12:35know I have UA that takes the customer
12:37to download the product and take them
12:40through the initial flow and then I have
12:42other means of doing things that push
12:44them to my other sources of direct to
12:46consumer revenue ultimately to a web
12:49store where I take them out of that that
12:53initial platform experience alto
12:55together.
12:57Has it gotten to the point with um you
12:59know pushing this more and more into the
13:00products that uh you're ever taking uh
13:04new new players into uh web shops or
13:07things like that during the first-time
13:08user experience or is this still more
13:10like a advanced users kind of thing?
13:12>> No, you're getting them within I would
13:14say even within the training portion
13:16sometimes. Right. So, um, I did another
13:19podcast earlier in the week where we we
13:21went through this live on on air and
13:23looked at a couple different games and,
13:25you know, some of them waited until they
13:28were into the gameplay and hit a payw
13:30wall and that's the place where they
13:31pushed them. Some of them in the initial
13:34onboarding as they were doing the
13:35training sessions gave a bifurcation of,
13:38you know, go here and here's your offer
13:41or go here and you can get a better
13:43offer. And you know the other piece too
13:46is in the in the in the onboarding flow.
13:50Um you're kind of doing some training as
13:52well where you can you have
13:53opportunities to push over to the web
13:55stores and other TOC portions where it's
13:58you know if you give us your email and
14:01you get an additional bonus if you load
14:03your credit card in you get an
14:04additional bonus. And those loadins you
14:07kind of move that cycle back over to the
14:09web store. And in doing so, you've now
14:11trained them that, hey, when I'm over
14:13here and I'm giving information or I'm
14:15doing things, I get better economics.
14:17>> So, I mean, obviously, like the focus
14:19for game developers is usually about,
14:20you know, the the fees from platform
14:23holders and trying to reduce those um as
14:25well as getting a bit more direct
14:27relationship with the with the players,
14:29right? But, you know, as you mentioned,
14:31some of it is marketing to the players
14:32of like a better deal for them. I mean,
14:34are you seeing players generally find
14:37that that's the case, that they're
14:38spending more even, uh, that they're
14:40finding that like this is like a deeper
14:42relationship with the game, that just
14:44overall like better impact on the
14:46players and not just a well, we're
14:47cutting our own costs over here kind of
14:49thing?
14:49>> No, it's not cut. I mean, cutting your
14:51own cost is just the beginning. Yeah,
14:53that's like Okay, that's and I think
14:57that's where most of the companies think
14:59their value is in coming to DTOC and
15:01it's just the tip of the iceberg, I
15:03would say.
15:04um by getting players to have better
15:08offers and know you're doing a a mental
15:11change in the way that they operate.
15:13Right? So there there was this whole
15:15shift that had to be done and it is kind
15:18of this this play over here on your
15:21device but pay over here in this other
15:24environment, right? That takes training
15:27to get people there. And in doing so and
15:30taking them to their environment, you've
15:32shown them every time, hey, there's a
15:34better value proposition for you over
15:36here. And that better value proposition
15:39might have been more expensive than what
15:42you were getting in on the platform, but
15:45you're getting more as a result of it,
15:47right? So you can see that you're
15:50getting better economics for both the
15:52player and for the game maker in that
15:55scenario. They might spend more. That
15:58higher spend gives you greater margin at
16:00the same time. So your gross re like I
16:02said your gross revenues would go up as
16:04well as your net margin. And then happy
16:06customers tend to come back and repeat
16:08those experiences. So it grows grows and
16:11grows your margin again. Um so that's
16:16part of it. And then I would say the
16:18data that you get from all of this over
16:20the long term I think is going to be a
16:23real value uh and something that becomes
16:27you know very protected by the game
16:29makers in the same way and Google have
16:31been protecting it now for years.
16:33>> I mean it sounds like it's definitely
16:34been effective so far and something
16:36worth continuing especially for players
16:38if they're getting a better deal out of
16:39it. But I'm kind of curious, like you
16:40mentioned a little vaguely about some of
16:42that better value proposition. And I and
16:44I'm curious like what do you find is
16:46kind of not necessarily the most
16:47effective, but just kind of the best
16:48win-win for both players and game
16:50developers when it comes to that value
16:52proposition being like discounts? Is it
16:54loyalty bonuses? Like things you get for
16:56repeat purchases? What do you find is
16:58like kind of the best strategy? It seems
17:00like so far that
17:01>> it's a mix of all those things and I
17:05think different segments of of players
17:08have different things that work better
17:09for them.
17:11>> Um, whales want, you know, the best
17:13offer that you can give with the best
17:16loyalty and the best things that I'm
17:18going to get as trailing. Um, there's
17:20bragging rights that come with it and
17:22all things. Um, I think starting players
17:25who are used to grinding, um, want
17:28something that finally pulls them out of
17:29the grind that makes them spend money
17:31and it's too good to pass up. Uh, and
17:34then the idea that you can still grind
17:36and get stuff, you know, if you go
17:39through processes, give information, and
17:41then come and play, you know, where are
17:44you going to check your loyalty points?
17:45Well, I'm going to check it over here um
17:48platform. Uh, and then I'm going to get
17:50more offers that are thrown at me
17:51through there if I do stuff or maybe I
17:54can spend just a little bit. So, it
17:56really just depends. I think
17:59knowing your player, which is what
18:01you're getting from this, being able to
18:04do uh the proper segmentation. I think
18:07that's where we're seeing a ton of value
18:09right now, is the companies that can
18:12make the thinner slices of segmentation
18:14are able to provide the best value to
18:16the best group of players because
18:18they're really getting to know in
18:19smaller bites and they're they're
18:21performing better as a result.
18:24So you're finding that like more
18:25customized offers are being beneficial
18:28like where you're offering something to
18:29a player that you're not offering to
18:30another player for example
18:33>> right now I mean onetoone segmentation
18:35would be the holy grail and it's just
18:37not there but groups of players I would
18:40say and the more that we can slice these
18:43groups down into small genres of of what
18:46we can cohorts of what we we can
18:48understand then we can give a a an offer
18:51to that group that we believe uh we're
18:54not leaving people out, right? Or if we
18:56had too big of a sample, part of that
18:58sample at the top, part of it at the
19:00bottom would drop out statistically
19:03because it's not for them. So the more
19:05that you can get down into the science
19:07of okay, do we have the best offer for
19:10the best group of people? Have we
19:11matched those things together properly
19:13so that the you have the most effective
19:15use of your your marketing basically in
19:17your funnel?
19:19Do you find it to be an effective
19:21strategy or a deterrent sometimes to
19:23offer certain things on say a web shop
19:26that you don't offer in game? Whether
19:27that be like a certain item or not
19:30necessarily just a certain offer, like
19:31not necessarily a certain price or a
19:32certain bundle, but really like
19:33something that you can only get if you
19:35go there versus in there in terms of
19:38like really getting people to go there,
19:40really getting people to make a
19:41purchase. Uh like an exclusive to that.
19:44>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, and
19:48console games, PC games have been doing
19:50that for a while, right? You know, come
19:52to the store, buy something as opposed
19:54to an offer that's that's uh through
19:57your normal flow. Um, Fortnite would be
20:00a good example of that, for instance.
20:01So, those things work have worked on the
20:04PC side well, and they work really well
20:05within the mobile space, too. Yeah, I
20:07just always wor worry about um you know
20:09people complaining that like that that's
20:10the only way they can get that thing and
20:12that they can't make a purchase through
20:13the web shop for some reason or another
20:15like payment processors being obviously
20:17not the same.
20:18>> Well, you push that through through
20:20loyalty or other types of things where
20:22you don't have to pay but yeah, you come
20:24to a different location to do things um
20:27to allow us to see more of what you're
20:29doing and who you are and we reward for
20:32that. If it's not the instant reward of
20:34buying, there's the do things for a
20:36little bit and then we might get
20:38>> Nice. Well, I want to talk briefly about
20:39some predictions you made a little while
20:40ago that I think are worth revisiting
20:42now that you know it's been a little bit
20:44of time.
20:44>> See how well they've stood up since.
20:46>> Yeah, I'm not sure the exact date you
20:48made these, but it was definitely not
20:49just yesterday. So,
20:50>> yeah, I want to say probably around
20:52January at at uh at a conference or
20:54something like that.
20:55>> Well, things move fast, so it might as
20:57well have been five years ago, right?
20:58So, uh, we just we'll just start with a
21:00with a simple one like around some of
21:01the stuff we've been talking about,
21:02which is you said web stores are
21:04becoming basically native to to games
21:06and then the psychological barrier for
21:08most players is basically gone. Like
21:10it's just another place they they spend.
21:13Do you think that's true for the average
21:14player yet or still mostly just like the
21:16really engaged spenders, people looking
21:18for deal, people that are already loyal,
21:20things like that?
21:21>> I don't think it's hit quite where I
21:23predicted, but it's moving there, I
21:26would say.
21:27um we are seeing more
21:30uh I would say more of the transactional
21:34value or more of the overall
21:35transactions that are happening with our
21:37customers over time being moved to
21:41direct to consumer which would support
21:42that thesis right um and you know within
21:46the industry we're seeing an average of
21:48like 10% up to 25% but some companies
21:52moving into 30% 40% all the way up to
21:55almost 60% % uh companies that I'm
21:58talking to now would love to to get
22:00themselves to, you know, 80 to 90% in in
22:04the direct to consumer side, which means
22:06that they're bought into it. And if
22:09they're bought into it, then customers
22:12are going to be pushed through funnels
22:14that will get them there. Um, so I think
22:17over time we'll get there. Maybe, you
22:20know, it's not going to be within this
22:21year, but it's definitely moving in that
22:23direction.
22:24um
22:26in terms of like
22:28the barriers uh and the retraining of
22:32the customer, I think that that's
22:33getting better over time, too, because
22:36the more it's being done and like we're
22:38just talking about, the more you can get
22:40segmentation and understand the
22:41segmentation of your players, the easier
22:44those offers become. It's less of a
22:46like, well, do I really want to go over
22:47there and do that? It's more of like,
22:49oh, yeah, yeah, I know I'm going to get
22:50something better over here. Um, and
22:53maybe they don't make all their
22:54transactions within the DTOC space.
22:56Maybe there's some quick things that
22:58it's just easier for them to do within
23:01the game itself, but you know, at least
23:03within the United States right now, we
23:05can do direct payment links from there.
23:07Uh, so we don't have to push them to uh
23:10a web store and they can actually still
23:12pay off platform. It's helping the
23:14developer side of things. Their credit
23:16cards information is already saved in
23:18there. Their geographic information is
23:20already saved in there. So they have a
23:21fairly seamless experience in the same
23:23way they would going through Apple Pay
23:25or Google Pay direct platform. And so we
23:27have various ways through through the
23:29the funnel to be able to make this an
23:31easier process for them for the
23:33different ways that they want to pay
23:34based on what they're doing.
23:36>> Well, as you say, it's like it's not
23:39anywhere near 100% yet, right? And it
23:40may take a while to get there outside of
23:43just education of like this is a better
23:45deal here. And I think let's say let's
23:47say everyone gets to the point where
23:48it's like obvious it's a better deal.
23:50What do you think personally is the
23:52biggest hang-up that stops people? Is it
23:53just convenience? Is it just I don't
23:55want to go to another place? Is it I
23:57don't want to set up another payment
23:58thing?
23:59>> Yeah, I think I think
24:02that's always a bit of friction is oh, I
24:04have to give my credit card again if
24:05that's one of those things or oh, I have
24:07to give my email again. So, I think that
24:10um when you're getting to that point,
24:13making sure if it's at the beginning of
24:15a game, like you've just brought in a
24:16new user, make sure that you're making
24:19it easy for them in that process of
24:21onboarding and becoming part of the norm
24:23of their onboarding process that doesn't
24:25feel weird. I think we are starting to
24:28get past the point of
24:31wait, I'm playing this game right now
24:33and now I'm being pushed to go somewhere
24:34else. this feels fake or fraudlike, you
24:38know, we seem to not be getting that
24:41anymore. So, that barrier is starting to
24:43go away. Um, the more and more that
24:47things become uh less frictional, the
24:50more that they become part of the way
24:53people understand that this is how the
24:54game flow works. I come in, they teach
24:57me how to do stuff, and oh, I need to
25:00create an account right now. Well,
25:02here's the benefits of creating an
25:04account.
25:05tell the consumer what those benefits
25:07are, but at the same time game makers
25:10getting great benefit from that.
25:11>> I mean, outside of just time and
25:13normalization, is there anything you
25:15think whether it be industry-wise,
25:17regulation wise, technology-wise, is
25:19there some thing that actually needs to
25:22change to really get that up to 100%. uh
25:25like outside I mean even if it's just a
25:27hey some way they don't have to enter
25:29their credit card in again or like what
25:31do you think if if something there was
25:32there was some one thing that changed
25:34that would make a huge difference in
25:35that outside of just time.
25:38It's it's hard to say like in the
25:41immediate future, but if we look at
25:43where this process has gone in the last
25:45few years, we've seen it get better.
25:47We've seen it get easier. And part of
25:49that has happened through regulation or
25:52deregulation, however you want to call
25:54it. Uh the lawsuits that have happened
25:56with uh Epic against Google going
26:00against Apple. Uh, and by way of
26:02example, like at the start of this, you
26:06know, when Fortnite came out, this
26:07couldn't be done at all. Okay. Um, Epic
26:11decides to put a a different way to pay
26:15for uh for your Fortnite currency and
26:18Google Dellists them, pulls them off the
26:21store, right? Lawsuit happens. As we get
26:25going through this lawsuit, the next
26:26stage happens, which is, well, you kind
26:30of have to allow for these other means
26:32of payments to happen. We don't know
26:35what that looks like yet. Great. We
26:37think we've won in this process. So,
26:40developers start to work through how
26:42this is going to look with some
26:44trepidations. Is Google really going to
26:46follow this? And so, they start to offer
26:50outside payment methods. And you get
26:52these big scare screens that come up and
26:54it's like stop you are leaving the
26:57ecosystem. We can't we can't you know we
26:59your safety is not guaranteed and all
27:01this kind of stuff. And that went back
27:03to court was like hey you can't do this.
27:05So the screens had to go away but they
27:08never really went away. They just went
27:09somewhere else because the court wasn't
27:10clear enough. And these things have kind
27:12of migrated over time to the place we
27:15are now, which is basically, you know,
27:18in the United States, you can have a
27:20link within the game now that says buy
27:23something and it takes you to an
27:25alternative payment. Customer has to be
27:28notified that they're going to an
27:29alternative payment, but it's clean
27:31notification now. There's it's not scary
27:34or anything like that. Uh customer sees
27:36what they're doing or they can stay
27:38within the ecosystem and keep doing what
27:40they do. I think over time, uh,
27:45if things were the most seamless, you'd
27:46even get rid of that screen of like,
27:48hey, you're moving somewhere else. It's
27:49just, yeah, this is where my credit card
27:51is. I know that I'm going to pay here.
27:53I've done all the signups already. I
27:55know this. Um, you might see, you know,
27:59more general places where credit cards
28:01are stored as a service that the game
28:04companies can kind of hook into where,
28:07you know, oh, if you're and we see it in
28:09in consumer apps, right, like shop or
28:12things like that, just put in your your
28:14email address. Oh, all of your
28:15information now populates. Great. You're
28:17good to go. Like a shared service or
28:19something like that. So there's, you
28:20know, these things are are are
28:22constantly moving and it's not like this
28:26has happened over 10 years. This is over
28:28like the last two years that a lot of
28:29this progress has happened. So it moves
28:31fast.
28:33>> Well, I mean that's good to hear. I
28:35guess as a big fan of uh opening these
28:37things up and being able to offer better
28:38deals, I think it's a good thing. I am
28:40curious though as someone who was
28:41formerly from Epic, uh obviously you've
28:44benefited from the whole strategy. Just
28:47just out of curiosity, in your personal
28:48opinion, do you think that was the right
28:50approach for Epic to spend such a an
28:54ungodly amount of money fighting that
28:55and that they were kind of fighting the
28:56good fight and that ultimately it
28:58benefits kind of everyone or was that
29:00just a well were maybe they were kind of
29:02protecting their own bottom line sort of
29:04thing?
29:05>> It's funny. I was with Tim Sweeney uh
29:07CEO of Epic last week and we were having
29:10a chat around this and um you know I
29:14thanked him for and I I hope all of the
29:18companies in our place get to thank him
29:20at some point for opening up this
29:22opportunity that you know but for that I
29:26don't think it would have existed. Um I
29:28think his principle in nature of you
29:32know this is wrong for the games
29:34industry and uh it's wrong for the
29:37developer
29:38uh it it holds true. It's it doesn't it
29:41doesn't allow the freedom of commerce uh
29:44and commerce to grow and and business to
29:47grow in a way that it should when
29:49there's a tight lock on the way that
29:51things can be done. And I still think
29:53that there's a ways to go in this space
29:55to get it truly open. Uh and Tim's going
29:58to continue and Epic will continue
30:00fighting that across the world. I think
30:02we have a a settlement coming up fairly
30:05soon uh with them and Epic where the
30:08court is reviewing their current
30:10settlement terms and from that we should
30:12have uh some finality in terms of the
30:15Google and Epic side and what what uh
30:18Google will be allowed as their their
30:20rules going forward for developers. Um,
30:24and again, that's the finality from the
30:27court case, but legislation could change
30:29over time, and legislation could start
30:32to make this even more open than what
30:34Google is asking for and what Epic
30:35agrees to through this. On the Apple
30:37side of that house, uh, Apple hasn't
30:40agreed to anything. That lawsuit's still
30:42going on and my guess is Epic will
30:44continue to fight that all around the
30:46world. um not just through uh through
30:50the lawsuit, but through lobbying and
30:53hopes of legislation and things of that.
30:56Um and I applaud them for doing that.
30:57They're doing doing that on their dime.
31:00Uh and companies like ours are are
31:02benefiting through the creation of these
31:04businesses. And these businesses will
31:07also, I think, help that crusade in the
31:10long run, too. Because as we validate
31:13that these businesses are not causing
31:14harm to the consumer, as we validate
31:17that these businesses are helping
31:19economic growth and showing that uh you
31:22know it's it's improving the
31:24technological world to a certain extent,
31:26uh I think that will help shape
31:28legislature and help educate legislators
31:32as to what this business actually looks
31:35like. Um so I think it's good overall
31:38for the future.
31:39Well, it'll be interesting from the
31:41regulatory side because obviously the
31:42court side, you know, made some
31:43decisions and is kind of just finalizing
31:45a lot of that stuff which definitely
31:46we'll all be paying attention to because
31:48it will, as you, as you kind of point
31:50out, will have a lot of knock-on
31:52effects. And it's like you've got, you
31:54know, the EU trying to do a lot, but
31:56these are American companies, right? So,
31:57I imagine if we can get something going
31:59over here that's positive, that could
32:01have an even stronger effect on these,
32:03you know, US-based companies. But
32:05>> yeah,
32:07>> for a lot of these businesses, you know,
32:08the West is their biggest market. So,
32:11United States, Europe, um, and the EU is
32:16fairly stringent. So, it's not like
32:18they're going to walk away from having
32:20their business set up in the EU,
32:22>> right?
32:23>> Um, they have to figure out how to
32:24comply and what the minimum level of
32:26compliance looks like for them and where
32:28can they skirt it, where can they be in
32:29the gray area, what can they push on
32:31before it breaks. Um, believe me, they
32:33will try all of that.
32:35>> Well, we've definitely seen some stuff.
32:37They actually force changes on Apple,
32:38like with the type-C connectors and
32:40things like that. So, it definitely
32:42seems to be more than just paper pushing
32:44when it comes to this stuff. So, I look
32:46forward to seeing where it goes. It
32:47obviously has made a big impact so far
32:48and that's why you're sitting here now.
32:50Uh, so we'll continue to see that. But,
32:53uh, you made some other interesting
32:54predictions that were like a little
32:55more, I think, uh, unconventional around
32:58this. And I think one of the more
32:59interesting ones to me was uh that an
33:02organizational change rather than just a
33:04consumer level change which is where you
33:06see more like DTC teams maybe even a VP
33:09of DTC uh in the company. Why do you
33:12feel like the org chart is such an
33:14important part of this battle as opposed
33:15to just legislation or consumer
33:18education?
33:19>> It's interesting when when I started in
33:21the direct to consumer space and the
33:23payment space
33:25uh I was equally naive. I hadn't come
33:28from that side of the house. Um, it was
33:31kind of a different process for me to
33:33learn and it put me very much in the
33:36situ in this in the the seat of kind of
33:38where the where our customers are right
33:40now, right? I was on the production side
33:42of the house. I was on helping people
33:44build things and get to this release
33:46portion and when it goes into the
33:48market, you market your game and that's
33:51the way it works. you do UA marketing,
33:53you get your users and
33:57you know my website or my web store was
33:59just an extension of that
34:02and I quickly learned how that was
34:04wrong. We would see um in the early
34:08times we would see you know companies
34:11get excited about oh and they would
34:13think about it this way like somebody's
34:15going to build my website for me right
34:18and so company like ours would go and
34:21build this web store which company that
34:24the publisher might see as a website and
34:27when they see it that way they continue
34:29to market as usual right and then
34:32they'll come back and complain like hey
34:34you sold us on this this dream and we're
34:38not seeing any lift from it. We're not
34:39seeing any new customers from all what
34:42we found through that is we had to start
34:44training the companies before we could
34:46train the consumer as to why you needed
34:50to look at this differently. traditional
34:52marketing and even as we were going
34:54through the process of th those early
34:56days I was talking about of litigation
34:59that marketing said you know you can't
35:01take a customer from within the game and
35:04move them to the web store so you had to
35:06get them there through other traditional
35:09means so through your social channels
35:11through traditional advertising and
35:13things like that and then you could move
35:15them to that well your marketing flow
35:18wasn't set up for that you didn't have a
35:19team that was really set up for that
35:21team was set up to give you awareness of
35:24the game and then go tell you where you
35:26could get that game, right? And so it
35:30was really a UA funnel pushing to
35:32download and get people within the game
35:34and start playing it. And so you had to
35:38start either take that traditional
35:39marketing team and and bolt on these new
35:43practices to them. But as this became a
35:46full-fledged channel,
35:48it made sense that it should have its
35:50own team. Now it could live within the
35:52marketing team, but it's it's a hybrid
35:54of of marketing and it's also piece of
35:57product at the same time. And that shift
36:00that it's part of product took a while
36:02to get to as well. And now it's one of
36:05those things because like I said,
36:07because we come from gaming DNA at our
36:09company at Appcharge, uh we do
36:11understand that. And so whenever we're
36:13building these, we're working now with
36:15the product team, not the monetization
36:17team, not the marketing team. We started
36:19with the product team.
36:21>> Well, it makes sense. I shift over a
36:23time, right? Where where it's slowly
36:25making your prediction come true based
36:26just people. So it's not just consumer
36:28educations. It's company education and
36:30figuring out.
36:31>> It has to start with the company
36:32education. Company's not bought into it
36:35and has a full strategy,
36:37>> then they're only in it half-hearted and
36:39the consumer will feel it at the end of
36:40the day. It's kind of funny even you
36:43pointing out the thing about websites
36:44because it makes me think about how
36:45especially in mobile people treat their
36:47store page like in the in the app store
36:49or their Steam page or whatever as kind
36:51of their website and and kind of forget
36:53about like there's their afterthought or
36:54they're like oh it's a marketing thing
36:56for a website like if we need to pull
36:58people in from socials or whatever.
36:59Yeah.
36:59>> We just pull them to there and then it's
37:01funneling them to the store.
37:02>> I think they forget that it's not really
37:04their website either,
37:06>> right? It's Apple's portal to your game
37:10that Apple has gotten you to pay for to
37:13make.
37:13>> Yeah. The 30% you're paying for that
37:15website basically.
37:17>> Uh and then you you get nothing back
37:19from it. So,
37:20>> right. Interesting. I just appreciate
37:22the different like approach in thinking
37:24about it. Um but like on a similar
37:26topic, you predicted that the playbook
37:28would kind of finally standardize and
37:30DTC would kind of have like a product
37:32roadmap more so than just a marketing
37:34wish list.
37:34>> Yeah. which I was just talking about
37:37like that, you know,
37:38>> um product first, I think, is is the way
37:41that it's being seen.
37:43>> Um you're looking at, you know, what is
37:46my most basic version of the web shop
37:48look like or the web store. And then
37:51what what features am I going to bring
37:52into it that I know? That's my road map.
37:55Um what wish list things might I have?
37:57What does the future look like, etc. uh
38:00and you're you're growing those as your
38:02game grows or as your customer base
38:04grows or as you're able to start
38:06bringing more traffic to that channel.
38:09>> What do you think like the just the
38:10future DTC stack kind of looks for
38:12everyone when it's like fully integrated
38:14when people have this sort of
38:15organizational changes and these road
38:17maps? What does that look like for games
38:19going forward? In the ideal world, you
38:22know, the the platforms will be just a
38:26distribution mechanism and a means to
38:29get certain organics. You'll be able to
38:31bring your own kind of programs to be
38:34able to do the things you want. Payments
38:36uh come in there seamlessly and then
38:41the data
38:43gets granular enough. I think AI is
38:46going to be able to help with this as
38:47well. uh understanding your customer
38:50enough that you can get down to that
38:53smallest slice of segmentation.
38:56You know, that holy grail of do I know
38:59each of my customers in here enough
39:01through AI that the AI knows and sees
39:05the patterns in their play, what they're
39:07doing, I can go at the right time at the
39:10right place to make them the perfect
39:11offer that they will take, you know, 90
39:15plus% of the time. That would be, you
39:18know, the ultimate uh for credibility
39:21and forecasting and being able to know
39:23that you have growth and being know and
39:25knowing that you know your players are
39:29are really digging the things that
39:31you're doing. And when they're not in
39:35and when you have them segmented to that
39:36and they're really not engaging, you
39:40know you have a problem. and then a big
39:42enough of those segments coming together
39:43and you know you have a bigger problem
39:46and what needs to be changed and course
39:48corrections made etc within your product
39:52um to get those those things back on
39:54track but I think that's that's a great
39:56place to see where direct to consumer
39:58can go and where future technology comes
40:00in pretty readily
40:03>> I guess that goes to that whole idea of
40:04like uh owning the customer relationship
40:07being really important for that
40:08segmentation but not only that but for
40:10communication
40:11for being able to to sort of work with
40:13them on that onetoone basis. I mean, I
40:15like this idea of like AI basically
40:17being allowing you to have a customized
40:20salesman essentially on on tap for each
40:22player like that idea of like a one one
40:26teacher per student kind of thing.
40:28>> Yeah. And you can make it not feel
40:30salesy like this is your personal
40:33concierge within the game. How can I
40:34help you? you know, um, and I've seen
40:39some of these already where it's just
40:40this this conversational thing about,
40:43you know, oh, hey, and nice to have you
40:45back and, you know, good to see you
40:47again. I see last time you did this. Did
40:49you want to go play with this player
40:50again? It gives you this journey, you
40:52know, so you don't feel like I'm just
40:55coming in and seeing a pop-up screen,
40:56you know, buy more gems, right? Becomes
40:59very personalized.
41:01>> Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where
41:02that goes. Obviously, that's going to
41:04take some time to get there. But, um,
41:06one of the things that was interesting
41:07going back to the report itself, you
41:09know, outside of the just the
41:10predictions that you made, uh, was that
41:12it argues that it doesn't really stop
41:13just at games. Why do you think games
41:16themselves outside of regulatory issues
41:18and stuff like that have been kind of
41:19the proving ground and why copy instead
41:22of staying in the walled gardens for
41:23like apps, especially in subscriptions
41:25and things like that? Yeah, look, games
41:28have always been a great proving ground
41:30uh for a lot of different pieces of
41:33tech. Um,
41:36and they make it makes their way a lot
41:37of the time into other areas uh of
41:40consumer behavior and consumer products.
41:43So, I think that definitely
41:47as you start to look at what's in the
41:49app market, right?
41:52You have things that start to not just
41:54look like your basic product, they're
41:56starting to feel a little gamified. So,
41:59you know, you've got language learning
42:00apps that have leaderboards that have
42:04streaks to them. Um, you know, my son is
42:07on Snap and he's constantly doing things
42:11that that have gamified mechanics with
42:13that with with the social components
42:15that go with it. Um, so how can you take
42:19the DTOC components of giving more of
42:25having that direct relationship more so
42:28into that side of the house, right? I
42:31don't think it's right yet for all
42:33consumer apps, but things that are more
42:34on the gamified side. I think like these
42:37micro dramas that are out there is a
42:39great place because their business
42:41models are, you know, watch a bunch of
42:43stuff for free, hit a payw wall. Uh, oh,
42:46I'm hooked on this. What do I do now?
42:48Well, do an offer, you can buy gems, you
42:51can get a subscription, and all those
42:53things will take you forward. Wow, those
42:54are things we do in the games industry
42:56already. So finding ways to do it better
42:59than what they're doing it because we
43:00see it at a better scale. Uh and and
43:03we've engaged I think our players more
43:06than uh the app folks are engaged with.
43:10Uh and I think over time we can help
43:13those businesses
43:15get a much bigger lift than where
43:17they're at right now by bringing in all
43:18these different mechanics that we've
43:20learned through the game side of the
43:22house. makes sense that there's a lot
43:24more focus on behavior in general with
43:26games since that's pretty much what
43:27games are as opposed to apps which are
43:30sometimes a bit more of a product than a
43:32game and and obviously we kind of have
43:34that middle ground you mentioned of sort
43:35of gamified apps.
43:37>> A lot of the apps are are you know set
43:39it and forget it subscription is their
43:42business model.
43:43>> We think there's more to that out there
43:45and we want to be able to show them that
43:46how we do it in games and why it's you
43:49know why it makes sense for you as well.
43:52Makes sense. Well, uh just looking
43:54further into the future, like maybe
43:55three to five years out, maybe that's
43:57too little, maybe that's too long. Uh
43:59what is what do you think winning looks
44:00like uh for DTC? And I think what do you
44:03think could derail that? Like what are
44:04there some big like potential black
44:06swans that could be a problem uh for
44:08that as well?
44:09>> You know, regulation and court cases are
44:13always out there as something that could
44:15happen. Um, and you have to be mindful
44:18and stay on top of what what is uh
44:22doable and what's not. Um, we saw a
44:25little bit of it like in the EU around
44:27loot boxes where that was moving pretty
44:29well and it was a pullback. Um, it
44:32didn't kill anything. It just it caused
44:34a change in how you were able to push
44:36things to the consumer, how much, which
44:39segment of consumer, etc. So things like
44:42that. Um, I think ideally, you know,
44:45less reliance on platforms, more ability
44:48to be able to serve the consumer
44:49directly, um, discovery at the beginning
44:53of a of a game, getting more people in
44:56uh, at scale faster, getting them uh, to
45:00a place where they spend faster and
45:02spend more. Um, all those things over
45:05time would be kind of the holy grail.
45:09>> Makes sense. It's definitely uh
45:10something I think we hope to see going
45:12forward just because like in theory it's
45:14better for the players, it's better for
45:15the the game companies and Lord knows at
45:18this point I think we could all use some
45:20some more wins in the game industry uh
45:21for everyone's sake. So be good. The
45:24good thing is like and and I know
45:26there's so much doom and gloom out
45:28there, but this is a space that is
45:30continuing to do very very well and the
45:34companies that are adopting it using
45:36companies like Appch charge to move it
45:38forward are winning very strongly. Uh
45:42they're seeing their revenues increase.
45:43They're seeing their net margins
45:45increase. Uh these are games that are
45:47already making really good money going
45:49into like very very good money. uh and
45:53it will only get better for them over
45:55time. It will also make uh how the game
45:58evolves better because they now have
46:00that direct interaction with the
46:01customer when they're ready to make new
46:03games. They'll be able to better
46:05understand what their audience likes to
46:07be able to shift them and their audience
46:08is getting bored or tired with
46:10something. And then the games that are
46:11lucky enough, I think, to make it out
46:13into other areas of entertainment, film,
46:17television, shorts, anything like that,
46:20they can be distributed and marketed now
46:22directly to the consumer through the
46:24channels that they're already using. So,
46:26it's a great piece to think of for that
46:28future. And for the games industry, this
46:30is kind of one of the better places to
46:32be right now.
46:34>> We'll definitely see. I don't imagine
46:36everything goes perfectly smoothly for
46:37that just because that's not been the
46:39history of games and regulation and
46:41everything else financials. So, uh we'll
46:43hope that at least it gets to the to the
46:45right place at the right time. Um we
46:47like to kind of end things off here with
46:49just kind of some rapid fire questions
46:50that are more maybe maybe some hot
46:52takes, maybe not. But, uh you know, feel
46:54free to just be a little more off the
46:55cuff with these. But, uh we'll start
46:57with like a I think an easy kind of yes
46:59no sort of one, but feel free to
47:00elaborate a little if you want, which is
47:02uh 2030. Do we see Apple and Google's
47:0530% cut effectively dead? Yes or no?
47:09>> Dead's a strong word. I think um we see
47:12it drastically reduced either by force
47:15or by uh
47:18the push of the consumer and and the
47:20public perception of where what is fair.
47:25That makes sense. I don't think I don't
47:27think it ever gets fully killed,
47:28>> right?
47:29>> They still run a business. They still
47:31run a service. There's there's a certain
47:33amount that that value has to it. It's
47:35just not 30%.
47:36>> Right. There's some amount of
47:37justification that they can make. It's
47:39just finding where that that number
47:40actually should land on. That
47:43makes sense. Well, all right. So, so why
47:46don't you name uh one studio that you
47:48think is crushing DTC right now and one
47:50big category that seems to be kind of
47:52asleep at the wheel.
47:54>> I think uh I think a company called Huge
47:57is crushing it right now. Uh if you look
47:59at their public filings from over the
48:01course of the last year, just what
48:02direct to consumer has done through
48:04their revenue, their curve is just kind
48:06of hockey stick as a result.
48:07>> Wow.
48:08>> I think they're doing great with that.
48:10Um
48:11I think uh
48:14sleep at the wheel.
48:18It's hard to say, just not as big yet is
48:21um I would say more of the uh the core
48:24and the midcore type games that are out
48:26there. um as those grow, being able to
48:29to access those consumers better, they
48:32do less transactions, but they spend
48:34more per transaction.
48:37And uh when you can get the right
48:39consumer within that flow who feels that
48:41they're getting really special things,
48:43you can really unlock a lot for your
48:45game.
48:45>> That definitely seems like a category
48:47that absolutely could benefit from that
48:48relationship, especially with the the
48:50sort of whale type players and and the
48:52way that they integrate into those
48:53games. I could definitely see that being
48:55>> Yeah.
48:55>> big thing. It surprises me if they're if
48:57they're not really doing a good job of
48:58it yet.
48:59>> You can see it being done really well
49:00with some of the older games that are
49:02out there. Like an Eve Online, for
49:03instance, is just
49:04>> Oh, yeah,
49:06definitely. What do you What would you
49:08say is the dumbest reason you've heard
49:10of for studio not wanting to do DTC?
49:14>> They're just too busy.
49:15>> Too busy to make money.
49:16>> Yeah. Too busy to make more money.
49:18>> That's that that is a pretty stupid
49:20reason. I think that that that needs
49:22that organizational shift you were
49:24talking about, right? to actually if
49:25you're too busy then that means you need
49:27to hire someone that could that could do
49:28that.
49:29>> Yeah. And you know it just takes some
49:30education that the hiring of that person
49:33is the investment you make to make a lot
49:35more money than what that person is
49:37being paid over time.
49:39>> How quickly can you get there? And it's
49:41pretty quick.
49:42>> Well, I mean it sounds like you guys'
49:44game background may help with that a
49:46little bit in terms of like, hey, this
49:47is not some weird outside business sort
49:49of thing. Like we get it from a game's
49:50point of view. we can kind of help you
49:52figure it out from a game's point of
49:53view so you're not so busy uh maybe you
49:55could be like you know busy with other
49:57things when you're already making some
49:58money from this.
49:59>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
50:02>> Well, cool. Well, thanks so much for
50:03joining us today. I I I hope everyone
50:05gets a chance to read that report. Great
50:06to get actual solid data from people. Uh
50:08as you know, there's a lot of talk about
50:10this stuff, but the more data we get,
50:11the more I think we can convince those
50:13people to get past some of those dumb
50:14reasons. So, really appreciate that. And
50:17we'll uh I think we'll we'll maybe we'll
50:18check back another time and see how
50:20those predictions are going on
50:21timelines.
50:22>> And uh if people need any more
50:24information on this, like we said, you
50:25can get the report at app outcharge.com.
50:28Uh there's a lot of other resources
50:29around what direct to consumer is and
50:31how we operate. And if you're interested
50:33in doing business with us, you can get
50:34in contact with us through there.
50:36>> Cool. Well, if you're looking for
50:37anything more than than what you heard
50:39on this podcast, sounds like David might
50:41be a guy to talk to. Uh so so give that
50:43a look and we'll we'll try and make sure
50:44to link to the uh the report here in the
50:47uh show notes for those of you
50:48listening. But in the meantime, uh
50:50thanks again for joining us, David. And
50:51uh we we look forward to seeing where
50:53DTC goes from here.
50:55>> Great. Thank you.
50:56>> Thanks everyone for tuning in.
50:59>> If you enjoyed today's episode, whether
51:01on YouTube or your favorite podcast app,
51:03make sure to like, subscribe, comment,
51:06or give a fivestar review. And if you
51:08want to reach out or provide feedback,
51:10shoot us a note at podcastnavic.co
51:13or find us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
51:15Plus, if you want to learn more about
51:17what Navic has to offer, make sure to
51:19check out our website, www.navic.co.
51:22There you can sign up for the number one
51:24games industry newsletter, Navic Digest,
51:27or contact us to learn about our
51:29wide-ranging consulting and advisory
51:31services. Again, that is www.navic.co.
51:36Thanks for listening and we'll catch you
51:37in the next episode.

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