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What Delta Force Cost Him | Kyle Morgan | Ep. 459 — Transcript

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0:01Okay, I got the red smoke.
0:07WEST OF THE SMOKE.
0:09>> OKAY, COPY. West of the smoke. I'm
0:11looking at danger close now.
0:14>> Catch me. I need it. YOU'RE CLEAR.
0:17>> COPY. Clear hot.
0:19>> You ready to do this, bud?
0:20>> Yeah, buddy.
0:21>> Oh [ __ ] Are we opening it up with your
0:22card? We're just going to quiz each
0:23other right now.
0:23>> That's why we're starting.
0:24>> Some of those are a bastard, man. You're
0:26like, I don't want to address this
0:28currently. Wow. You are actually just
0:30going to dive in. Go for it.
0:31>> Not for small talkers.
0:33>> Yeah.
0:34>> I don't know what I'm getting myself
0:36into. I kind of know because you did
0:37this you did this the other day.
0:38>> I did.
0:38>> But um
0:41>> I think it's I think it's wonderful like
0:43the
0:43>> I just didn't want the book to be the
0:45end state,
0:46>> you know.
0:47>> What are we doing with it, you know,
0:48kind [snorts] of thing. Yeah.
0:49>> Or what do you do with it? I like the
0:51concepts, but
0:53>> I struggle a little bit or I don't
0:55necessarily know exactly what to do with
0:56it. And not that this is the end all be
0:58all, but it's just it's a good way to uh
1:02to build on it. So, wow, look at you. We
1:05are going to just straight open with
1:07>> You did far better than me shuffling.
1:10>> Might, you know, moonlight in Vegas
1:12sometime. Sure. Of course, we Yeah, we
1:14got to cut. One of them in here is the
1:16how do you use this? This one goes on
1:17top.
1:17>> You got to cut towards me. [laughter]
1:19Hey, what's going on here?
1:22All right. [sighs] Oh god. First off,
1:25who's answering this? Are we both?
1:28>> It may not even be a challenge. It's
1:29gonna be a reflection or a challenge.
1:31>> I'll answer the first one and then I'll
1:32you'll do the opposite for me.
1:35>> Oh, challenge.
1:36>> Oh, ask for help with one thing today.
1:39Not because you're weak, but because
1:41you're smart enough to know you don't
1:42have to carry everything alone. That's
1:45easy. It is. That is a re Well, like
1:47where's my wallet? [laughter]
1:50Where's my wallet? I have no idea where
1:52where my wallet is. How many guys from
1:53our world though
1:56feel like whether it's true or not, they
1:58have to do everything by themsel.
2:00>> Yeah.
2:01>> But it's for a team. That's what you
2:02tell yourself. I will shoulder
2:04everything I possibly can to make sure
2:06the team doesn't suffer at all. They
2:07will destroy themselves, which I think
2:10is a very noble thing. Not maybe the
2:12smartest long-term strategy,
2:14>> but a noble pursuit.
2:16>> Yeah.
2:16>> It's super dangerous. And they don't
2:18want to ask for help. And they're
2:19surrounded by people that love them that
2:21would help them. Man, I it's such a
2:23blessing though to have um to have
2:26experienced both sides of that type of
2:27environment, culture. And
2:30>> now when it comes to to things that are
2:32going to appear weak, you know, um
2:35personal issues, that's where I
2:37struggled for well 37 years before I
2:40ever really truly asked someone for
2:42help. But, you know, in my time in the
2:4682nd and and seven special forces group
2:48and then in in the unit, what I saw was
2:51that like the good leaders, which is
2:54really hard to describe, and I loved how
2:56you described leadership and and the the
2:58connection
2:59>> so easy to describe. Well, well, the the
3:01part about the book that the drum proof
3:03book that you wrote that I thought was
3:05there's so many parts of it, but one of
3:07them it was how it's kind of easy to
3:09mistake good leadership in the military
3:12versus is it or is it just team
3:15>> Yeah. you know, team success,
3:17>> you're gonna succeed in spite of the
3:18leader sometimes it and in the outside I
3:20was I was giving a speech in Colorado
3:22recently.
3:24>> And I'm still looking for a great
3:25example of a command photo
3:28>> because I would I would want to put it
3:30up and describe to everybody what it is
3:34they're looking at. And then I would
3:35say, "Okay, who's the good leaders and
3:38who's the bad?" And they would all sit
3:40there and they would look at it's an
3:41impossible question because you and I I
3:43I don't know [ __ ] about army uniforms. I
3:44would understand the ribbons but lost on
3:47the ranks completely.
3:48>> Um much like the Navy. Same
3:50>> with the Navy. I'm like what petty?
3:52>> I know.
3:53>> Why are you so petty? Like we
3:54>> heavy on the petty, light on the officer
3:56is what I have to tell [laughter]
3:57people. But you know, of course the
4:00military could not have a single rank
4:02structure that we could seamlessly cross
4:04talk across.
4:05>> Yeah. But what I would the point of
4:07putting that picture up and explaining
4:09what people can't see is that the people
4:11at the unit level could deeply tell you
4:15who is effective and who isn't
4:16effective. But on the outside world,
4:19they see that uniform and they say
4:21that's a leader. They're going to be
4:23good. And that's dangerous to think that
4:24way.
4:25>> For sure. But but the but to the other
4:27point of of I think experiencing good
4:31leadership that would transcend uh the
4:34military structure is what I'm talking
4:36about. So the guys that and that's
4:38that's how I've became the leader I've
4:40become is through all the bad and the
4:42good and the experiences and then the
4:44things you just don't know like with
4:45entrepreneurship like how do I translate
4:47that stuff
4:48>> into this world and
4:50>> will you let me know what you figured
4:52out by the way?
4:52>> Sure.
4:53>> Can you write it down and take a picture
4:54of your phone? Same for me. Um, you're a
4:57little further along than me, but my
4:58point
4:59>> Well, no, I'm further along in time. I'd
5:01assume that I'm further along in
5:03>> wiser in time and age, maybe a little
5:05bit age, too, but
5:07>> um the empowerment, right? So, like if I
5:09give you a task or I'm given a task and
5:12I don't and I don't give an opportunity
5:14or create a culture of like any
5:16questions, do do you have what you need?
5:18What what can we help you with with this
5:20task? Like that's the that's the if we
5:23don't do those things, if we don't
5:24create the environment, hey, and we just
5:25say, "Hey, here's the task. Get it done
5:28by 1700, whatever."
5:30>> It's 5:00 for you civilian folk.
5:32>> Yeah. I don't know where the cameras
5:33are.
5:33>> They're everywhere.
5:34>> Over there. [laughter] Um I like I'm
5:36like I'm a podcaster, too, you know, but
5:39>> the Black and Blue podcast. Check it
5:40out. Um
5:42>> and I and those tasks like and good the
5:45good subordinates are going to get those
5:46things done. Uh but they don't really
5:49understand what they just did.
5:51um necessarily not as much as they could
5:53and you're not developing your
5:54replacements.
5:56>> So thinking about like that one up two
5:58down. Have you heard that?
6:00>> Yeah. One up two down is like a a huge
6:02way that I've translated you know I've
6:04been able to translate that into
6:06entrepreneurship of like
6:07>> explain what that is for the audience.
6:08>> So wherever I'm at in this in this in
6:12life and in my professional life as uh
6:14as well like I need to be thinking about
6:17how do I learn how to do the job above
6:19me? that's the one up and everything
6:21that could set those conditions and then
6:23I can I never forget how to do the jobs
6:26two down. Um it it's not beneath me
6:30because at the end of the day like you
6:31can't come in today I'm doing your job
6:34and I'm going to try to do it well.
6:35>> Y
6:36>> so to be led well and then to lead well
6:39it takes that one up two down mindset
6:41that you never you never arrive you know
6:44uh it's the journey you know piece of
6:46it. So, but that that opportunity that
6:48we can give our our teammates that we
6:52work with of like a planning exercise
6:54like, hey, you know, here's what we got.
6:56We have to do this and there's these
6:58micro tasks in this mission. I'm going
7:00to be working on these things, but I
7:02need you, you and you, to figure out how
7:05you guys want to do these two other
7:06things. And I don't care if you do it or
7:09you do it, but you guys come up with a
7:10plan on how you want to execute it. And
7:12you let me know what you need to support
7:13you in that. And that's how you start
7:16the the the progression of of developing
7:20them into the the one up two down. And
7:23and you have to be you have to create
7:25environments where all right this op the
7:292 IC is the TL and the TL is the 6 IC,
7:34you know, and
7:35>> it's hard to do, but it's fun if you do
7:38it in in and you do it, you know, often.
7:40And there's times and places to do it
7:43obviously. And I I take that mindset
7:45with me cuz I think one of the biggest
7:47things I can help with or that we can
7:49help with, and this may seem trivial to
7:52some, but leadership uh or shoot, excuse
7:54me, planning and and actions on and and
7:58after actions, you know, you talk about
8:00that extensively in the book, but
8:02>> it's such a powerful thing
8:03>> to law enforcement as I'm training
8:05because, you know, my training company
8:06is Blue Bearing and I've been doing it
8:07for over four years now. um really on
8:12terminal leave before I retired. But
8:14Yuvalde really woke me up on um active
8:18threat response, active attack is active
8:20shooter is a failed term. We still term
8:22it active shooter because of SEO
8:25>> because you
8:25>> what do they call it now in the
8:26profession?
8:27>> So it's it depends on the state. Yeah.
8:29>> But as a as a as a larger kind of across
8:32the nation, it's still being termed
8:34active shooter response training.
8:37[gasps]
8:38And that's the reason why I still put it
8:39anywhere in the title of our [snorts]
8:42courses from a search. Yeah. Search
8:44engine stuff. So, but it's a failed term
8:46for a couple reasons. Not to make this
8:47about training, but my point is is that
8:50>> it it causes indecision
8:52>> paralysis with with without information
8:55in that moment other than, hey, what got
8:57us here? A call about shooting at this
9:00location. It's called a school time of
9:02day. Common sense. So the there's things
9:05that violate the the five principles of
9:07patrolling. So planning, reconnaissance,
9:08security, control, common sense, time of
9:12day, what are they doing inside the
9:14target? The innocent bystanders, avoid,
9:16deny, defend, which is if they can
9:19avoid, avoid. So it's better than run,
9:20hide, fight because run could be run the
9:22wrong way.
9:23>> It could it could very well consist of
9:25running. It could very well consist of
9:27hiding.
9:28>> Um but avoid, deny, defend is more
9:30appropriate. So, think of that as the
9:32the innocent bystanders that are victims
9:34in this situation like that. The whole
9:36point of us responding without
9:37hesitation is to to give them more time
9:39as we're distracting, isolating,
9:41neutralizing. Law enforcement love their
9:43acronyms, too. Um or their their
9:45phrases, I guess. But, um my point is is
9:48that there's been cases and I use I use
9:51the the data. I don't I don't make
9:53things up. I use my experience with the
9:55Rison Blue and and training for hostage
9:57rescue and doing it and it's to help
10:02teach an appropriate curriculum and we
10:03call ours the protector mindset course
10:05um because it's a mindset that you can
10:07take everywhere with you and we teach
10:09these tangible skills but the shooter
10:11term what happens when you when you get
10:13there something that notification
10:14happened and now you're there and you
10:16don't hear shooting.
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11:24>> Yeah.
11:24>> Do we just stand by and wait for backup?
11:26>> I would hope not.
11:28>> Well, it happens. And I think that that
11:30term it is being phased out of active
11:32shooter versus active threat or active
11:35attack.
11:36>> And it's um
11:38>> I can see the justification for that.
11:40>> Yeah. And it it that's a big part of it.
11:43And it may not always involve a gun.
11:45>> Yeah. So, the term needs to be
11:46all-encompassing for just the ability
11:48for for some for an individual or
11:51individuals to um cause, you know, great
11:54harm or killing uh people uh a large
11:57amount of people in an in a populated
11:59area unrelated. Um, and it doesn't mean
12:02that something that is like a domestic
12:06situation, an u like a something at
12:09someone's work, their their their
12:11girlfriend's cheating on them with their
12:12coworker and they go there to kill
12:15people specifically and it turns into uh
12:18an active attack. Um, but people get so
12:21wound up and it's it's such a big deal
12:23because the moment things go to well
12:25there's not active killing happening it
12:27goes to barricade which changes the
12:30tactics completely as you know and
12:31that's when
12:33>> that's when we can set the conditions
12:34you know and and in our favor like think
12:37Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria like those are
12:39easier missions
12:40>> especially if you can isolate and
12:41contain.
12:42>> Yeah. And you have
12:44>> cover of darkness. You have relative
12:45cover, you know, with the two foot mud
12:47walls like in some of those buildings.
12:49But
12:50>> at the end of the day, like the biggest
12:52difference between all the close
12:53quarters battle, and I like close
12:54quarters battle, CQB because that's what
12:56I was taught and it's right, but
12:58>> versus CQC
13:00>> and termin words matter. And as I teach
13:03this and translate this to law
13:04enforcement, like this is a battle for
13:06morality in the confines of a structure.
13:08So we got to simplify the chaos, the
13:10unknown, the only absolute. The enemy
13:12gets to vote who, what, when, where,
13:14how, why. And we don't control, you
13:18know, the where, right? The time of day,
13:21what's in front of that breach, you
13:22know, like what's the but we try to
13:25simplify it with how we teach close
13:27quarters battle. But it's it's a battle
13:29for morality where something someone is
13:32in there that is worth us safeguarding
13:35um or um obtaining, you know, and and
13:38depending on what it is, if it's an
13:40high-risisk arrest warrant, it's like,
13:41well, let's gas them out, wait them out,
13:43turn the power out, call them out,
13:46right? And but once we commit to going
13:48through that doorway, the actions are
13:50the same, man. Dominate, maneuver. You
13:52talk about that in the book, which is
13:54wonderful because
13:55>> what does that do? It splits the
13:57attackers's attention.
13:59>> Otherwise, you're reacting to them.
14:00>> Yep. Exactly. Yeah. You you talk about
14:02that and it's like
14:04>> I'd much rather them be reactive
14:06[snorts] to me. Oh, yes. Versus me
14:08reacting to them.
14:10>> That's the whole like domination of the
14:11space.
14:12>> I was actually I consider myself
14:13fortunate. So, I actually did a
14:15deployment with a squadron.
14:16>> Did you?
14:17>> And uh it was back in 2005. They had
14:20split the countries geographically. And
14:22we're still going to come back and
14:23answer our questions on the cards. Sure.
14:25[laughter]
14:27>> That one's actually yours. I have a
14:28better way to phrase that for your
14:29entrepreneurial journey because I'm just
14:30fascinated by other entrepreneurs. Yeah.
14:32>> But to talk about CQB, I think that's a
14:34correct phrasing, too.
14:36>> So, we went down and we did a
14:37essentially a a modified workup with you
14:39guys at your house and I think you guys
14:42sent up six because at that time they
14:43>> we have several.
14:44>> Yep. Eight or eight, whatever, however
14:45many.
14:46>> 20 something like that.
14:47>> Yeah.
14:47>> Um they had
14:48>> who's counting?
14:49>> They had said, "All right, dev group,
14:51you guys get Afghanistan, KAG, you guys
14:54get Iraq." Yeah,
14:55>> people high enough up said that might
14:58not be a good idea if we force that out.
15:00Let's have a little bit of
15:00crosspollination. But it's cool because
15:02we got to come down.
15:04>> There's not that much difference once
15:06you clear the threshold of the door
15:08between the way that they were doing it
15:09back in 2005 and we were doing it back
15:11in 2005. Very small differences. Almost
15:14all the concepts were the same. But it
15:15was cool
15:16>> because you could sit there and say,
15:18"Well, why do you guys do it like that?"
15:20And they would answer. I'm like, "Okay,
15:21awesome." And then we changed the way
15:24that we did it while on deployment with
15:26you guys so we could seamlessly
15:27integrate. And that way a dude was just
15:29a dude, you know, instead of having to
15:31set, okay, here's your little pocket of
15:32you go do Navy stuff over here and we'll
15:34go do army stuff. It's not going to
15:35work.
15:36>> It man, it's it's one of those things
15:37too with like uh you know where I'm at
15:40with my faith. It's like instead of us
15:42talking about things that divide us,
15:44let's talk about what unites us.
15:45>> It was 99.8% the same. Yeah. And and but
15:49I will say that era, not not having been
15:51there uh during that era um in the unit
15:54like that there was a lot of lessons
15:56learned in blood.
15:57>> Oh, we were still that was the tail end
15:58of hey let's run into
16:00>> they probably learned a lot from
16:03uh those small unit exchanges too
16:06because
16:06>> yeah I mean eight guys got hurt on the
16:08target I got medevaced out of six of
16:10them went on little birds.
16:11>> Did you get hurt on that on a rotation
16:13with
16:13>> with Ace Squadron? I was on deployment
16:15with Aquadron.
16:15>> That's when you got shot?
16:16>> Yeah. Oh wow. I didn't I didn't realize
16:18that.
16:18>> Yeah, we were coming in essentially the
16:21white side of the building and then they
16:22had I mean we there were people
16:23everywhere but yeah I mean six guys got
16:27lifted out on helicopters. Two of us. I
16:29got the Bradley fighting vehicle
16:31>> which just means though I wasn't that
16:32hurt in comparison to you know and
16:35>> lost lost a lot of a lot of people.
16:37>> Some of it was and honestly too some of
16:39it was blue and blue. There was a
16:40breaching charge that would that was
16:44command initiated
16:46with other people in close enough
16:48proximity that it did a substantial
16:50amount of damage. There's so many
16:51lessons to be learned.
16:52>> We're not we are not um
16:56uh what's the word? uh impervious
17:00like it
17:00>> no it was our guys who set the breach
17:02that ended up
17:03>> that's what I'm saying like us just
17:04whether it's your former unit that you
17:08worked with or mine like it it the the
17:11seeing things from a certain perspective
17:14it it always matters right like and and
17:16you got to be able to create that forum
17:18>> to talk about you know in excruciating
17:21level of detail any any tactical errors
17:24or grievances but
17:26>> you know us killing our own is is you
17:28know it's it's happened and it's also I
17:32mean how many bombs got dropped on our
17:34own people? I'm not talking about the
17:35UN. I'm talking about just the the
17:36military at large.
17:38>> Yeah.
17:39>> And um we've learned a ton through the
17:43global war on terrorism and 20 plus
17:46years of of training for war and at war
17:49is unprecedented. And that's why I think
17:51our generation, you know, is is is set
17:56up to be very impactful, one of the
17:59greatest generations that this country's
18:00ever seen. But it's not because of what
18:03we did during the war. It's what we take
18:04and do for this country after with those
18:07lessons. Um,
18:08>> I could not agree more with
18:10>> and that's huge. We got to do more and
18:12we are. But my point is is that if
18:14you're one of those guys that are out
18:15there flapping, lost, like, I don't
18:17know, my identity is so wrapped up in
18:19what I used to do, and nothing feels the
18:20same. You're trying to replace
18:22something, man. You're never going to
18:23find that again.
18:24>> And that's okay. You need to grieve.
18:26Grieving is a part of of life. It's a
18:30blessing actually. And how we grieve
18:32matters.
18:34And not to get scriptural on you, but
18:36Jesus wept, right? Why did Jesus weep?
18:39He wept because of because of Laz
18:41Lazarus's family. He knew he was going
18:43to raise him from the dead. But he wept.
18:46He held that space with with Jesus's
18:49sisters and family to to to grieve to
18:52show us that grieving is a part of
18:54living. And grieving uh our identity is
18:58a big part. It's okay, man. It's okay to
19:01not be okay in a moment. But you can't
19:03stay that way or else it becomes like
19:06you said in the book, it becomes the
19:07tsunami, right? Surviving that tsunami.
19:10It's like it either destroys you,
19:11defines you, or improves you. And that's
19:15a superpower if you can figure out how
19:17it improves you. And it's not avoidance.
19:21It's it's sh it's not shame. Shame is
19:23extremely unhealthy, but at the end of
19:25the day, it's remorse. Yep, I did that.
19:28I was a part of that. Or pride. like,
19:30yeah, and I'm so proud to have served
19:32there and done the things that we were
19:33able to do,
19:35>> but I am just one of of a a massive
19:40uh uh force that is so capable and I was
19:44so honored to serve there and and um and
19:47just the military at large. My service
19:49to this country has became so much more
19:51about what it originally started as,
19:54which is well fighting. like 911
19:58happened and I was I'm I was a senior in
20:00high school and I remember where I was
20:03at and I just was like I looked at this
20:06teacher that served in the Ranger
20:07regiment in the '9s and he uh took me
20:09under his wing and I was like what do I
20:12do? How do I sign up? I want to go fight
20:13these people and uh didn't know what I
20:17didn't know but um you know that my
20:21team, my family, everything that I was
20:22missing growing up I found in the
20:24military good and bad.
20:26>> Mhm. Um but when that goes away what
20:28happens man you know and um I think
20:31replacing it is where we get stuck
20:34versus
20:35you know um the growth in the in the in
20:39the in the journey of rediscovery in the
20:41journey of of [sighs and gasps]
20:44um
20:47something new. It's beautiful man.
20:49>> I think you have to remember too that
20:51the machine has already forgotten about
20:53you.
20:54>> Yeah. And that's okay. The machine has
20:56to forget about you to continue to be
20:58capable and to evolve and to innovate
20:59and to move on. I've I've asked myself
21:03many times and I don't know the answer
21:04to this. And it's not that I want people
21:07constantly being reminded while they're
21:08in that they need to think about what's
21:10going to be next, but I think it would
21:13be a net benefit if leadership from time
21:16to time were to sit everybody down and
21:19just say, "Listen,
21:21what we're doing is unbelievable, but
21:23don't forget that you do have a life
21:24that you have to live outside of this
21:26and and you're going to have to go back
21:27to that or recreate that or replace
21:30whatever term you would want to use."
21:32>> My hope is that that's changing. I
21:35>> my hope is that that's changing because
21:36that never got talked about.
21:38>> Same here. And so you got out in 2020,
21:40right?
21:40>> 2022.
21:41>> 2022. So I got out
21:43>> I got out in 2020 or 2013. So
21:46>> if it's not if it's not being
21:47>> got out in 2013.
21:48>> Mhm.
21:51>> I thought it was 2018. Maybe I
21:52misunderstood some numbers.
21:54>> I'm I'm listening. I'm not going to say
21:56I'm reading. Yeah. I'm listening to the
21:58book.
21:59>> Last day of June 2013 is when I got it.
22:01>> Yeah. hot take is
22:03is people that say that they read a
22:06book, but they listen to it. Is it
22:07really do they really read it?
22:12>> I'm going to go to Michael for this.
22:14Michael,
22:14>> you are the neutral party.
22:15>> I mean, it doesn't technically mean the
22:17same thing, but you absorbed it.
22:18>> You consumed it.
22:20>> Yeah.
22:20>> You're not being
22:21>> I listen to books all the time.
22:23>> Yeah.
22:23>> Me, too. And I'm not judging at all.
22:25Like, I I honestly that's helped me. it.
22:28Erica helped me with this, my wife,
22:30because tracking and you know I
22:33converging like whoa double vision all
22:35the things from blast injuries and just
22:37not being conditioned and practiced with
22:39reading from from a young age but like
22:42>> um listening and then tracking along man
22:46that helps me that helps me absorb
22:48everything so much quicker.
22:49>> I was going to ask it for me I absorb
22:51books better written word than audio.
22:55Yeah,
22:55>> I like audio and I can absorb from that,
22:57but I have a deeper retention with
22:59written.
23:00>> But that's just me. I don't think it
23:01matters.
23:02>> Yeah. No, I don't. I just It's one of
23:04the things hot takes, man.
23:05>> I don't know. That's what the young
23:06goard's doing.
23:07>> We're going to get back to the military
23:08stuff.
23:08>> I'm K Morgan, by the way.
23:09>> Yeah. [laughter]
23:11>> You That's how that's all in the show
23:13notes. Yeah.
23:13>> All right. In your entrepreneurial
23:14journey, let's let's change this up.
23:16Okay.
23:16>> In your entrepreneurial journey,
23:19identify one thing for me that you have
23:23probably identified for yourself where
23:24you need to reach out to an expert, but
23:26you haven't yet.
23:30>> Very good. Could you repeat the
23:32question?
23:33>> So, [laughter] you got a lot of stuff
23:35going on. You have a training company,
23:37you have a podcast, you travel, you
23:40speak. Um, that's a lot of stuff. and
23:44all of those things. There's no way that
23:45you could be a master in all of those
23:47things. So, in your journey or what you
23:48want to do, have you identified an area
23:51where you know that you're going to have
23:54to reach out to somebody for help yet
23:55and you just haven't done it? Maybe it's
23:56a business coach, maybe fill in the
23:58blank, have you identified yet
24:00>> probably put it this way, the biggest
24:02deficiency you might have identified in
24:04yourself and you know you need to do
24:05something about it, but you just haven't
24:06gotten around to it. I think the next
24:08hurdle is to answer the question very
24:11broadly is anytime I realize something
24:13it's usually by making the mistake
24:16>> and then I'm like well who can I lean on
24:18for different different reasons mentors
24:20you know um you know and and as a CEO
24:23chief everything officer
24:25>> it's uh it's very hard when you're a
24:28company at that time of three yeah
24:30>> and one of them is your wife yeah
24:32>> and um
24:34>> like that's something that I think I
24:36need to reach out to more of is like,
24:38man, what a blessing it is to build
24:40something with your wife to do it and
24:42for her to still have her passion, her
24:43own real estate brokerage and our life
24:46together. Um, like how do we, you know,
24:50how do I
24:52not lose sight of um managing the
24:56business in a business way?
24:58>> Y
24:59>> uh without things being so personal and
25:02and I don't maybe that's like you can't
25:04really answer that question. No, you can
25:06you can find that in a mentor or
25:08somebody that you see perhaps that has
25:10traveled through that and just literally
25:12ask them for advice. It could be as
25:13simple as that.
25:14>> Yeah. But I think scaling is the first
25:17is the next thing.
25:18>> Yeah.
25:19>> That I h I know that I need help with.
25:21>> Yep.
25:22>> And um but I also am not in this rush
25:26and it's not procrastination. I know
25:27that
25:28>> because that's very simple. That's very
25:30easy for me to do.
25:32>> It's the best.
25:32>> Well, it's later. I'll get it to that
25:34later. That's a tomorrow problem. You
25:35know, I
25:35>> was telling them at the coffee shop, I
25:37think it was Confucious that said,
25:38>> Confuchious,
25:39>> don't do today what can be put off until
25:41tomorrow.
25:42>> Yes. The problems of tomorrow were
25:44worried about themselves enough.
25:45>> Scripture also says something about
25:47this, too. But um
25:49>> No, I am completely turning words around
25:51just to justify my own laziness at
25:52times. [laughter]
25:54>> Well, we also don't know. We don't know.
25:57And I think I think one of the
25:59>> But we know people who do know, we don't
26:01know. But we got to ask them.
26:03>> That's the question. And and you know, I
26:05can connect this to something more
26:07recently where it was something that I I
26:10was challenged with like, hey,
26:12>> you know, you we should as men, we need
26:15three things. We need to be uh we need
26:18to be mentored by someone or people for
26:21different reasons to this point.
26:23>> Like there isn't like a one one stop. If
26:26you have that person that you're is your
26:27mentor, if it's your father, God bless
26:29you, man. Like that is such a blessing.
26:31Yeah. Um, but if you don't have that,
26:33even if you do, you still need um other
26:36people for different reasons, but
26:39someone older than you, wiser, longer in
26:41whatever it is that you're seeking
26:43mentorship about. Um, and
26:48and then we need to be mentoring our
26:50peers. Like we need to be, you know,
26:51mentoring each other, listening um uh
26:55through through things even just
26:57publicly that are done. like I really I
26:59really appreciated that they did that
27:01and then tell them like hey man that was
27:03awesome here's why I think that was
27:06great or what are you doing you know and
27:09and I'm not the police like I'm not like
27:12the the moral police for everybody but
27:14the people that I'm connected with and
27:16this is a part of you know full circle
27:18but the third being mentoring the people
27:22younger than us like um wherever they're
27:25at maybe phys maybe by age but just
27:27wherever we're at in that process. It
27:29could be determined by age or not. But
27:32those three things, right? You know, the
27:33the mentor that's further along, the
27:35peer, and then the mentee, if that's
27:38even a word.
27:39>> I think that is actually correct. Mentor
27:40and mentee.
27:41>> Michael,
27:42>> I do believe that is correct.
27:43>> Not to be confused with manatee.
27:46>> That's something very easy.
27:47>> Which is a pretty dope sea creature, by
27:48the way.
27:49>> Yeah.
27:49>> Hand me that. I got to shuffle it up
27:50because I'm going to have you're going
27:51to have to pull a card for me. One of
27:53those things was when asked I was like I
27:55can answer the the two of those but the
27:57third one I can't which was the yeah
27:58>> the wiser the further along and and then
28:02I thought about it and I was like and
28:04and I prayed about it and I was like why
28:06I have two people that come to mind
28:08right away.
28:09>> Yep.
28:10>> And I haven't asked either one of them.
28:12So all I did was ask and it was like of
28:16course I I'll be that for you and and
28:18and and they're going to do it to get
28:21things also out of that connection. So
28:24it it's not about transactions. It's
28:27about choosing who we connect with and
28:29then holding each other accountable
28:31which I think we find easier when we
28:33don't like things. We're like oh what
28:34are you doing? Mhm.
28:36>> So being you know also having grace and
28:38being patient but to lead with uh with
28:41our example and to ask you know hey man
28:44like I don't know I don't know like this
28:46entrepreneur stuff I don't know how to
28:48scale this company [snorts]
28:49without losing uh the culture that I'm
28:52trying to build not trying that I am
28:54building words matter the culture that
28:56I've built and building in blueberry and
28:59it's people it's people and that is
29:03really really hard to scale. Um, as you
29:07know, and I think you do talk about that
29:08in the book,
29:09>> you have to do it slowly.
29:10>> Yeah, slowly. What did you Oh, man.
29:12There's a whole section that I wrote
29:13that I was like I was writing down the
29:15whole thing and I was like, "No, I'm
29:16just going to highlight the whole page
29:19and a half and it it talks about uh hire
29:22slowly, fire quickly."
29:23>> Yeah.
29:24>> And man, that's
29:25>> it applies to personal life, too.
29:26>> Yep.
29:27>> It really does. And it's one of those
29:28things where people may be in your life
29:30for a season, for a part of it,
29:32>> and they show you at some point or maybe
29:35you've you've now gained a new
29:37perspective um of like this this is not
29:40a relationship that needs to move
29:41forward in in the next season.
29:43>> And seasons are okay. I think that's one
29:45thing I didn't realize that I guess
29:47until a little bit later in life.
29:50Everybody's life has seasons to include
29:52your own. It's okay if seasons of life
29:55shift apart and then come back. What a
29:56boring life if it didn't.
29:58>> Truly, I would agree with you.
30:00>> But when you're in the moment, you just
30:02why isn't, you know, you get upset like
30:03it's not working. It doesn't click as
30:05well.
30:05>> Why is this happening now? Yeah. You
30:06know, like I what a boring life it would
30:09be seasons.
30:10>> Yeah, it would.
30:12>> Let's do it, though.
30:12>> All right.
30:14>> You get to pull one and now I have to
30:15answer.
30:17>> Ah, these are so good.
30:18>> Those elements are fantastic.
30:20>> It's the saltiest water.
30:21>> I love it.
30:22>> I have no proof of that. That's just
30:23what I call it.
30:24All right, another challenge.
30:26>> I was hoping you'd pull the
30:27instructions. How do you use this deck?
30:29[laughter]
30:30>> We didn't pull that out.
30:31>> No, you left it in.
30:32>> So, another challenge. So,
30:35>> for the viewers that don't know what
30:36we're what we're doing here, this is the
30:37drum proof conversation starter. Stop
30:40scrolling and start talking. I that's
30:41why I love this because of that
30:43statement.
30:44>> And it can be done like this, but really
30:46>> people are watching us right now.
30:47>> Yeah. But really though, the important
30:49conversations are with yourself. It can
30:50be with a partner. I do plan to make a
30:53deck of these for leaders, a deck of
30:55these for parents. Same things. Pull a
30:59card and just start. It's the whole goal
31:03is make movement, a positive movement.
31:06Whether it's a reflection, whether it's
31:08something you know you don't want to do,
31:09but your life will be better if you do.
31:11We all have those things. Oh,
31:12>> for sure.
31:12>> So,
31:13>> what do you got? So, pick one area of
31:17your life, finances, health, a
31:19relationship, and run an honest
31:21afteraction review on the last 90 days.
31:24>> Oh, dang, dude.
31:26>> So, that's tough to do real time,
31:27obviously.
31:28>> Yeah.
31:28>> Um,
31:29>> but that's like a that's like a
31:30reflection thing that you can do in the
31:32morning and then start scribing, you
31:34know? Y
31:35>> and then
31:36>> come back to it. Y
31:37>> in the afternoon and
31:39>> by but by by the end of the day that I
31:40think that challenge is
31:42>> Yeah.
31:42>> is doable. That's tough to do.
31:44>> Let's see. You do it in the next minute.
31:45>> I mean, so you'd have to pick one.
31:48>> Uh,
31:48>> let's do
31:49>> you pick one. Life, health, or finances?
31:51>> Um,
31:54health. And health in the sense of like
31:58the last thing I just listened to on on
32:01your book was
32:03>> that uh and it didn't I didn't get to
32:05the conclusion, but the intestinal
32:06thing.
32:07>> Yeah.
32:07>> Like
32:08>> the intestinal blockage 10 out of 10.
32:10Don't recommend.
32:11>> Yeah. But but you know in in contrast of
32:14obviously not feeling well.
32:16>> Yeah.
32:17>> And then you know uh how are how are you
32:20managing not knowing exactly what was
32:22the root cause and is preventable or
32:24avoidable?
32:25>> They said it was bad luck
32:26>> really.
32:26>> Yeah.
32:27>> So maybe that's not a good one but
32:28getting shot. No. That's that's that's
32:30also avoidable.
32:32Not kind of.
32:34>> Well [laughter]
32:35>> not not looking for fights though is
32:37what I mean. No, no. That not I don't
32:39mean that in a way of like the enemy
32:41always gets to vote.
32:42>> Yeah.
32:42>> And you know, we got to we have to, you
32:45know, try to set the conditions, but
32:46what we did and what our nation's law
32:48enforcement does is dangerous.
32:49>> Very,
32:50>> very dangerous. Like, this isn't a game.
32:52>> Yeah.
32:53>> And I don't want to take away from I
32:55don't I don't want people misunderstand
32:56what I just said about um it's
32:58avoidable. What I mean is is like I'm
33:00not looking to go wear a badge. I'm not
33:03looking to go fight overseas in this
33:06>> this conflict or that conflict. Like I'm
33:08done. My fight is man. It's everywhere.
33:10It starts in here. Every day I wake up
33:12>> with with how I start my day. Yep.
33:14>> Proactive great
33:16>> versus reactive.
33:17>> Yep.
33:18>> Reactive looks like first thing I'm
33:19doing is
33:20>> oh what's it going on? Calendar, emails,
33:23Instagram, you know, and it's like now
33:24I've went into immediate reaction. And
33:28so that I guess to go back to the
33:30challenge,
33:31>> I'll do finances because this is one I
33:32can give you because this is something
33:33I'm
33:34>> I need help with that too.
33:35>> Well, yeah, I I am
33:39in the middle of
33:40>> Can I get a payday loan? Just kidding.
33:41>> Sure. I'll give you several dollars, 38%
33:44interest. [laughter]
33:46>> Um my relationship with money has
33:48shifted as again seasons in life. When I
33:51was younger in life, I recently read the
33:53book uh the art of spending money. And
33:56if you haven't read it, I would I would
33:57recommend it. It was recommended to me
33:58from Huberman.
34:00>> Yeah, you did that recently, too.
34:02>> Uh about a month ago. It just recently
34:03came out. Yeah. So, there was a little
34:05bit of a delay from
34:05>> He seems like such a a grounded
34:08>> such a cool human. We sat in BS for a
34:10good amount of time afterwards.
34:11>> Artist Eric has mentioned it to me.
34:14>> And there's another one. I think it's
34:15the psychology of spending money.
34:16Whatever it is, uh they're both tied the
34:18same author.
34:20And I think this will apply to a lot of
34:22people and this is a struggle I've had
34:23in my life. But it when it comes to
34:25purchases or there are people who
34:29want to save because they want to see a
34:31number but they don't do anything with
34:33the number and then there are people who
34:35are wildly irresponsible and a lot a lot
34:37of times not always what they're looking
34:39for is recognition or status via what
34:41they spend. and not telling people how
34:44to live their life, but it was a
34:46fascinating, you know, it was a very
34:48reflective book because a lot of it was
34:50back to you and it would say things like
34:52a Rolex and a Timex,
34:55they tell the same time. If you are in
34:58an economic place and you legitimately
35:00want to invest in a Rolex, that's great
35:02because they have appreciated over time.
35:04>> But if you want to buy a Rolex because
35:05you want to be seen wearing a Rolex,
35:07don't confuse the difference in that
35:09head space. Same with tattoos.
35:10>> Status versus utility. I don't know if
35:13there's any utility to tattoos other
35:15than being identified by corpse.
35:16>> To the to the point though is like to
35:19that point like what are you going to
35:20you going to take the Rolex into the
35:22grave with you?
35:23>> Like just same with the tattoos like
35:25>> it talks a lot about that too
35:26experiential versus an item or an
35:28object.
35:28>> Yeah. Which I think is huge. So
35:30something that you can pass down. Yep.
35:32>> Absolutely. If economically like you
35:34have you're in a place to be
35:35>> and memories I think are the most
35:37memorable or the valuable thing that you
35:38can pass down. So it talks a lot
35:40about00%. Yeah. So financially I am
35:43constantly and I think a lot of people
35:45are but I'm asking myself now much more
35:48intentionally over the last 90 days to
35:50use that as an example.
35:53What do I want from money? What does
35:55money mean? And [snorts] I'll ask myself
35:57at any level of purchase, is this a
35:59status or a utility?
36:02And if it's truly a utility, let's look
36:05for the most economically efficient way
36:07to get this done so I can have more
36:09money to do things with experiences.
36:11Absolutely.
36:11>> And it asks is your desire to spend
36:13money, is this coming internally or
36:15externally, which by you know externally
36:17would largely come back to the status
36:18internally
36:20being able to pass something down the
36:22experiential stuff. So, for the last 90
36:24days, I have been uh pretty heavily
36:27looking at that. And it's interesting
36:29because you do feel the tug of, oh, you
36:32know, I remember when I was younger, oh,
36:34wouldn't it be awesome if I had that
36:35super truck? Everybody would be so
36:37stoked if I had that truck and I get so
36:38much more attention. You get it and like
36:40nobody gives a [ __ ]
36:40>> Yeah.
36:41>> You know, and you're in upside down and
36:42at $20,000 because you rolled negative
36:44equity in from the previous car deal
36:46that you didn't think your way into
36:48>> and been there.
36:49>> Yeah. And a
36:50>> brag boulevard is full of those. Totally
36:52>> 28%
36:54>> freaking not that we could buy Hiluxes,
36:55but I would if we could cuz those things
36:56are badass.
36:58>> Uh, you know, utility. What did I need?
37:01I should have been driving around in a
37:02Prius, you know.
37:03>> I know that's hard. My wife has one and
37:06it's very humbling. Uh, every time I
37:08step foot in that thing, but for the
37:11utility perspective, it works for her.
37:12>> Yeah.
37:13>> So, that's it worked for us because it
37:15was something that we could pay off.
37:17Yep. and we got um
37:20uh blindsided by a drunk driver and all
37:23the irony. Yeah, you know, being a a
37:25very unsuccessful drunk. I've driven
37:28drunk several times and been arrested
37:30for it.
37:30>> Yeah.
37:31>> And it was very ironic that that
37:34happened in my sobriety. And it was this
37:36challenge of like rounding that corner
37:38and like I'm going to rip this person's
37:40head off cuz my family was in the car
37:42and it wasn't just a little sideswipe. I
37:44mean it total or expedition.
37:46>> Yep. And I say all that because because
37:49we had focused on utility. The the
37:53exhibition was very appropriate at that
37:55phase in our life or leading up to that.
37:57But then we realized why would we let's
38:00just get out from underneath it. They
38:01didn't give us what we owed, you know,
38:03just because that's how the world turns,
38:05you know, based on um debt.
38:08>> Yeah.
38:08>> You know, and and credit.
38:10>> Yeah.
38:10>> And it's like this cyclical thing. And
38:13it's at the end of the day, we could
38:15have been like, well, let's just put
38:16that into a newer vehicle and like,
38:18well, no, we actually don't need that
38:19because I have four children. Three of
38:22them are adults and they all have their
38:24own cars that are paid for and that's a
38:27blessing. Their colleges, they didn't
38:29they didn't acrewue any debt in college.
38:32Huge.
38:33>> Two of them have graduated college.
38:35>> Amazing.
38:36>> And it it is, man. And that's something
38:38that we've been able to help create in
38:41their in their development, their growth
38:43of them being um very proactive with
38:46looking for for money that's out there,
38:49grants and scholarships and this and
38:50that. And that's been and and obviously
38:53the military service stuff has been
38:55huge. while I was still active, my my
38:57son was able to apply for even though he
38:58didn't go to Florida um school systems
39:02because I I joined the military from
39:03Florida, that was my state of uh
39:05residence, you know, through through my
39:07military service because that's where I
39:08signed up and I never changed it,
39:11>> which which came back to I mean, I
39:13didn't pay state taxes the whole time.
39:15>> Slightly beneficial,
39:15>> but and I didn't have to live there. So,
39:18>> but he was able to apply for all the
39:20Florida like academic scholarships as if
39:22he was an instate student. Oh, that's
39:25>> and then was able to graduate from
39:27Florida State in like three years. So,
39:28he took a year of college that he got as
39:31a senior in high school in North
39:32Carolina. And then
39:33>> they accepted all of it and he graduated
39:35in less than I think three years with a
39:37a degree in digital media production.
39:39And same with my daughter, but my
39:41daughter I was retired so I had the the
39:44VA, you know, benefits and the they all
39:46they all had a year of my GI bill and
39:48she's saving it for her masters or for
39:50uh she's actually applying for a PA
39:52program. So, a med a med route and she
39:55she her bachelor's in psychology,
39:57>> but she graduated at 20 years old
39:58without any debt. And my point is is
40:00like cuz you talk about that in the
40:01book, too, and I think it's wonderful to
40:03be said is like actually wrote a note on
40:05that was like
40:07it's this how criminal that is. I know
40:10you didn't touch on it a ton, but like
40:12>> well, it violates any other lending
40:13standard and it can't be there's no way
40:16to shake it. You'll carry that 20, 30,
40:1840 years down in in your life.
40:20>> It's unlike any other lending model.
40:22It's every fair lending standard.
40:24>> Yeah.
40:24>> And it's almost unlimited. Another great
40:27question from that book
40:29is how much is enough?
40:31>> Yeah.
40:32>> And for a lot of people and I think for
40:35myself and I and I still struggle with
40:37this, the answer is just more.
40:41more to do more to just sit in an
40:44account so you can look at and lord over
40:45it and
40:46>> and be
40:47>> to me I've identified enough to have
40:51>> reduced stress
40:53>> so you know your bills are going to be
40:55covered and and oftentimes people say
40:57have a 90-day fund what whatever your
40:59901201 365 I don't care whatever it is
41:02have
41:02>> everyone looked at Ramsey Dave Ramsey's
41:04like um um
41:06>> he's got a bunch of
41:07>> baby steps and then the the having the
41:11expenses like up six months of expenses
41:14of take keeping the lights on y
41:15>> you know living
41:16>> for some people that actually might not
41:17be enough they might want a year and if
41:19that but I'm just saying if that's your
41:20thing once you get to that
41:22>> I think it's a really [clears throat]
41:23important question
41:25>> to answer for yourself what what is it
41:28that you are looking for and I've
41:31identified for myself that once you get
41:33to that point where you have that buffer
41:35I think the value of money is to buy
41:38time with the people I care about to do
41:40things that we will be
41:42>> talking about for years to come or when
41:45I'm gone.
41:46>> Yeah.
41:48>> Yes.
41:50>> When we go when we So I success to me
41:53looks like three things. At the end of
41:55my life, sorry if you've heard me say
41:57this, but I'm saying it again.
41:59>> And is at the end of my life, who is
42:02there to celebrate that? you know, and
42:04even f or take that back to even more of
42:07like a a very precise moment when I walk
42:11uh when we finish this and I walk uh
42:14outside to call Erica and say, "Hey, you
42:17guys, where you at?" You know, she
42:19doesn't answer. Why? What have I done to
42:23to to make her not want to answer the
42:26phone? I'm not saying she might be busy,
42:28but I'm saying like if I walk to the car
42:30and she's not in there
42:33and something I'm doing is the is is the
42:36reason why like it's not for me because
42:38at the end of my life, who do I want to
42:40be there to celebrate my life? That
42:42could be tomorrow. But I don't live in
42:44this like live everyday Peter Pan. I
42:46used to
42:47>> I'm I'm a real I'm a real boy. No. Uh
42:50I'll never grow up, you know, that kind
42:52of thing. Uh you know, bangarang and all
42:55that. And um so anything that gets in
42:58the way of of those people not being in
43:00that room uh to celebrate and to me and
43:03to remember our lives together like it's
43:07not for me. So that's not success. So
43:10anything that gets in the way of those
43:11things is is violating this this code
43:14that I have now. And then when I do pass
43:18and I go to heaven because that's where
43:20I'm going. When I talk to Jesus, he's
43:22going to look at me and be like, "We got
43:24a lot to talk about." son like let's
43:26talk about it and at the end of that he
43:29goes welcome in good and faithful
43:31servant. So anything that gets in the
43:33way of that is not for me.
43:35>> Mhm.
43:36>> And then the next the last one would be
43:37the treasures that I build up in heaven
43:40is the work that I do from now until
43:43then to help be that example to be a
43:46light for others. A light on top of a
43:48hill cannot be hidden. And there's a
43:50difference between being a quiet
43:51professional and a silent. And that's
43:53been a [clears throat] real call on my
43:54heart this year, especially
43:57just learning learning about what that
43:59means. And you know, um,
44:01>> how does your old unit feel about that?
44:03You guys,
44:05>> you guys, I'm
44:06>> you guys rolling in hundreds if not
44:09thousands of people into you guys.
44:12There is
44:14there is more information out there
44:15about the community that I came from.
44:17And I don't know if it's a cultural
44:20thing. And again, I feel lucky that I
44:22got to work, at least in the generation
44:25that I was in, that I got to work
44:27>> with guys from your command. Again,
44:2999.85%
44:31exactly the same. Like the communities
44:33are defined by their similarities, not
44:34their differences.
44:35>> But he thinks that we hate each other
44:37and
44:37>> maybe that was pre 911 there was a lot
44:39of fighting because there wasn't
44:40anything going on and it was a budget
44:41issue. But in my experience, high-fives
44:43all around. Still in close contact with
44:46some of the guys that I was at with a
44:47squadron. Um, I don't know if you know
44:51this.
44:51>> Did you know Tom Spooner?
44:52>> Uh, indirectly. Okay. Indirectly.
44:55>> He is my he is one of my main mentors.
44:57>> So, I don't know if you know this
44:58though. There's a couple seal books out
45:00there.
45:02>> I'm reading one right now. [laughter]
45:04>> I don't I mean I don't I wouldn't want
45:05to classif I I tried not to write like a
45:07seal book as you know this.
45:08>> Can I can I mention one thing though
45:10that I thought was really it's a
45:11wonderful book. Don't don't take that
45:12any other way. There's a chapter where
45:14you're like, "Hey, if you're here to
45:16learn about buds and all that or who's
45:18going to carry the boats and all that,
45:19like this isn't where you need to be."
45:21But then everything after that is
45:22talking about like the process, but it's
45:25to get to a point.
45:26>> Yeah.
45:26>> And in in Buds, so I just thought that
45:28was funny, so I wanted to prodd you a
45:29little bit. But
45:30>> there are talk about buds. I talked
45:32about why people quit in buds.
45:34>> Ah,
45:34>> yeah. But yeah, so then the stories
45:36connect to the quit, right? Through the
45:38different uh
45:39>> Well, my theory is so much money has
45:41been spent on I stand corrected
45:42>> the 15% of people that make it through.
45:44To me, the juice is why did all these
45:46people give up? Why why did 85% of the
45:48people ring that bell?
45:50>> You can reverse engineer that stuff.
45:52>> Yeah. Yeah.
45:52>> And that's I had
45:53>> that's what you did.
45:53>> Well, I had to use that as the example
45:55because that's where I started having an
45:57understanding of the biggest impediment
46:00people put in front of them.
46:01>> Yeah. But there are a lot of books.
46:03There's a lot of TV shows. There's a lot
46:04of movies. Let's not pretend that
46:06there's not a TV show called The Unit.
46:08>> This is the first time I ever heard
46:10about The Unit was Inside Delta Force,
46:13the book, and then the show, which was
46:15the the guy that wrote that book,
46:17>> which is it was a documentary. Just so
46:19we know, we can say because you were
46:21there that everything that happened in
46:22that TV show is exactly like it was for
46:24real. Fairly close. It gets a little
46:27wild there towards the the latter
46:29seasons, but
46:30>> you guys again wrapping in that place.
46:33>> See these scars on my hands, man?
46:36>> Bleeding.
46:37>> There are a lot there's less out there.
46:40And it seems as if, and correct me if
46:43I'm wrong, there is more of a stigma
46:47for guys leaving that place and being a
46:50little bit more consumerf facing. Mhm.
46:53>> So, how does that how do you feel about
46:56wanting to be a lighthouse for people?
46:58>> Yeah.
46:59>> How has it how has the response been
47:01from the place that you left? Has it
47:04been a challenge?
47:04>> Uh, well, and I I'm I'll address this
47:07too because I did not leave the way that
47:09I wanted to. Yeah. And
47:11>> which is I think that's not
47:13statistically anomalous. I think
47:14>> but there's there's some some massive
47:17character defects that had it not
47:19happened the way it did
47:20>> I do want to touch on that but I do want
47:22to talk about
47:23>> one thing that I think that my
47:25observation the past four and a half
47:27years and even before I got out
47:30>> was we my former job that I did like we
47:34don't do a very good job and it it was
47:36getting better with transition
47:38>> like how are we focusing truly on the
47:41soldier the service member transitioning
47:43to the next thing. Um, versus just
47:47saying, "All right, you go you have some
47:48time to go uh rediscover yourself or
47:51whatever or helping kind of create an
47:54environment, which they're doing." And I
47:56got to experience that firsthand, which
47:58was awesome. But one of the big things
48:01that is the I think you guys and this is
48:04an observation cuz I don't know the
48:06actual like truth with it is and this is
48:09from other people that I've talked to
48:12>> like you guys get experienced you get to
48:15experience entrepreneurship and and
48:18mentorship from some of those guys more
48:20than we do I think
48:23earlier on and
48:26um working with uh doing, you know, a
48:29building trip and then there's, you
48:31know, we're going to uh bring in these,
48:34you know, the Patriots, you know, the
48:36coaches and and all these things. Like,
48:38we don't do we don't do that. And it's
48:41and I don't think it's not be it's not
48:42because like you guys are doing it for
48:45glory or for self uh um
48:49um success and all that for the
48:51individual. It's it's truly a part I
48:53think a part of like this is going to
48:56end. But if we can uh expose our our
49:00operators to you know these people
49:02earlier,
49:04>> it might help set them up in some way.
49:06That's the only thing that I've seen
49:07being the big difference.
49:09>> Um because we're the same people. Like
49:12it's just you joined the Navy and I
49:13joined the army.
49:14>> Yes. And we ended up largely at the same
49:16places.
49:16>> Yeah. in and different by you know
49:19inception documents and their medals and
49:21all of that stuff but other than that
49:23again 99.8% 98% the same
49:25>> like cut from the same cloth. Man,
49:27>> 100%.
49:28>> I have there's not a single uh Seal Team
49:30Six guy that I've met that I've that I
49:33haven't been like, man, that's that's a
49:34really it seems like a really good
49:37person. Um that's been through a lot
49:39that's that's also come out on the other
49:41side
49:41>> and that's very limited in my
49:43experience, but I can only speak from my
49:44experience. When I start to speak from,
49:47you know, absolutes and nevers and
49:49that's when things get really sideways
49:51for me. So,
49:52>> but how does your old command look at
49:53guys coming out and being a little bit
49:55more public facing?
49:57>> There there's just more SEALs out there
49:58than exag
50:01guys.
50:02>> If you're an officer, I don't I don't
50:04know because if you were an officer and
50:06you and the thing about and being an
50:08officer there that you may have retired
50:10as an officer there, but there's
50:11probably a chance if you're a high
50:12ranking officer that
50:14>> that was a a a journey along that was a
50:16a stop along the way
50:18>> for sure. So those guys, I see the those
50:21high ranking generals that talk about it
50:23and and I don't think there's a no one
50:26bats an eye at it.
50:27>> What about the guy at the boys though
50:28that are there 10 15 years? So, a mentor
50:32said this to me while I was in and he
50:35had served I don't know 20 plus years
50:37there and um it was very humbling to
50:40hear him say this while I was still
50:42there still thinking I had more to prove
50:44and and all these things and uh and but
50:47also like oh what do I I should
50:48medically retire I don't know and then
50:51um you know he he said this to me and I
50:53was just like this is a guy that you
50:54couldn't get to stop being a troop major
50:56he did like four years
50:58>> and had like three touch long in the
51:01tooth.
51:01>> Yeah. It also prevents anybody else from
51:04being a troop sergeant major.
51:05>> Yeah. But it was one of those
51:06opportunities and he was the right guy,
51:08man. And and um
51:11>> you know, it's he said this to me. He
51:13was like, it's like a it's like having a
51:16divorce with a restraining order. And
51:19you know, he doesn't talk about that
51:21place. He's not in the public eye. He
51:23does things very quietly. And that's
51:25that's who he is. and not everybody is
51:28him, but even someone like that saying
51:31that to me was very eye opening. Um, and
51:35I don't think the higher up, the highest
51:36people in that unit, the the highest
51:38ranking will ever truly understand that.
51:41They may say it because they don't have
51:42to turn their badge in. They can come
51:45and go as they please. And I'm not
51:47looking to go back there.
51:50Not because um they do they do an annual
51:54thing and then there's this well I don't
51:56know what the status is of where where I
51:58stand there. I I people have told me
52:01that I was fired. Uh no I'll tell you
52:04this right now. No one looked me in the
52:05face and said Kyle you're fired.
52:07>> But that that doesn't matter.
52:08>> Yeah.
52:09>> The point is is that I left in a way
52:12>> I had been arrested three times since
52:142016.
52:15all alcohol-related. One was uh at a
52:18hotel one year after the Rison. Um and I
52:22talked about this in in pretty high
52:24level of detail a little bit on Sean
52:25Ryan show that I did years ago, but but
52:27more recently with Mike Ritland, which
52:29is a phenomenal dude. Um and
52:33and then coming back from that, like
52:35abstaining from alcohol for everybody
52:37else, intensive impatient. Took my belt,
52:40my shoelaces, locked doors, locked
52:41behind me. I viewed it as punishment.
52:42I'm doing my time so I can go back to
52:44being operational.
52:47And that happened two more times. The
52:50second time was a DUI. I was a TL. I
52:53made it. I made it.
52:54>> That means team leader.
52:55>> Team leader. Yeah. So I and I and it was
52:58early, you know, I had been maybe seven,
53:00eight years.
53:01>> Mhm.
53:01>> In the in the squadron.
53:03>> What squadron were you with?
53:04>> B.
53:04>> Okay.
53:04>> And
53:06um I was going to medically retire. This
53:10was 2018 2019. It was my last deployment
53:14um to Iraq in Syria. And um
53:18I was really trying to focus on my
53:20health and my marriage and all the
53:22damage I had done. And I was a 2IC uh
53:26ATL, assistant team leader. And um
53:30I told him uh well there was one
53:32specific op that um I had never
53:34experienced this the this emotion on an
53:37op [gasps]
53:38and it was a Hilo crash that I thought
53:40was we all thought was it got shot down
53:42um just based on how violent it was and
53:45why it happened. Um, but it was
53:46essentially a brownout that I lost essay
53:48and I [snorts] I'm was running towards
53:51the building because up front, you know,
53:53as the two I see. And then I hear this
53:56and I I look back and it's this huge
53:58brownout, flames and rotors flying
54:01everywhere. And I uh immediately start I
54:04was we were the closest team.
54:06Immediately start running towards the
54:07brownout and uh the crash site. And as
54:10I'm going through this huge, it felt
54:13like an eternity, this huge brownout
54:15cloud, dust cloud. I'm just thinking,
54:18"Oh my god, I'm going to see all my
54:20friends dead." And it was the first time
54:22I had felt that. And it didn't stop me,
54:25but it it definitely stuck with me after
54:28that. Um,
54:31I came back from that trip. It was a
54:34long It was a long mission, man. Cuz we
54:35were not going to let any any ounce of
54:37that aircraft get be used against us.
54:39>> Yeah. Was it a 60 or
54:41>> 60? Yeah.
54:42>> The pilot was was died on impact and um
54:46the left seat pilot and um
54:50>> the whole like half of the front glass
54:52was smashed in and
54:54>> yeah,
54:54>> but you know, so now it's triaged and
54:56get like get everybody away from this
54:58before it explodes. And then we were out
55:00there for probably two or three days,
55:02man, just trying to for one, you know,
55:05fight ISIS, which is who you fought
55:08basically in 2005, six with the unit.
55:10The same people, different technology
55:12advancements, tactics, all the things,
55:14but the same drive, the same
55:16>> Yeah. same belief system, same ideology.
55:18>> Yeah. The most hardened fighters I've
55:19ever fought. And you know, so it uh
55:25coming back from that, like there was a
55:27couple things that happened and I was
55:28just like,
55:29>> I don't know if I can keep doing this.
55:31>> And it was an internal conversation. And
55:33then
55:33>> do you remember that moment when that
55:35emotion hit you for the first time?
55:36>> It was running through the cloud. I was
55:38I didn't I didn't think that I was like,
55:40"Oh, I don't know if I can do this." It
55:41was just like, "Whoa." And then just
55:44carry on. But then coming back, I was so
55:47angry about a couple other things that
55:49happened about how we exfilled.
55:52Uh like how a few things it was. I was
55:56like, "Guys, we cannot
55:58like do more harm here. It's already bad
56:00enough. Like why are we not considering
56:02this, this, and this? Like that crew
56:05didn't need to fly back with the body.
56:08We could have xfilled the operators that
56:10were injured with the body of the pilot.
56:14We didn't live with him every day, work
56:15with him all the time. We do rotations
56:18as they rotated in.
56:19>> Yeah.
56:19>> And it just I was I was flipping tables,
56:21man, in the AR. And um
56:25projecting, too. But um I called Erica
56:30and just told her I was like, I don't
56:31know if I can keep doing this, babe. Um
56:35and I talked to my therapist. I called
56:37him. He worked for the unit. God bless
56:40him. But I asked him a very direct
56:42question. Am I doing more harm than good
56:45by staying here in this environment?
56:48And he knew the answer. But at the end
56:50of the day, he turned it back on me like
56:52a good therapist would.
56:54>> See, he can't give it to you. Even if he
56:55does, you have to you have to realize it
56:57on your own.
56:58>> Exactly. I wanted him to tell me, "Yes,
57:01you are Kyle." I had so many years with
57:04him, but it was so every time I I met
57:07with him, it was in the beginning, it
57:08was very like I'm told to M
57:10>> [clears throat]
57:11>> uh you you need to do this, Kyle. If you
57:12want to stay operational, you need to do
57:14this. Okay. So, I go in there and just
57:16be like, "Yeah, you know, I see like the
57:19phones, I see the computers." I'm like,
57:20"Nah, I ain't talking about anything
57:23cuz it's at work." And um you know, he
57:27told me, you know, if you've you've
57:30expressed to me that your goal is to
57:31become a team leader in this unit. So,
57:35if your goal is that, then the answer to
57:37that question, I think you already know.
57:40I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, I called the
57:44chaplain, though, after that. I wasn't
57:46just going to let it go. And I talked to
57:48the chaplain because I've had been doing
57:49a lot of intensive marital um therapy
57:52and sessions with them and Erica, and
57:54they're wonderful,
57:55>> wonderful resource. Wherever you're at
57:57with faith or not, they are a a great
57:59resource that's 100% confidential unless
58:02it's harm for yourself or others. Like
58:04they it it stays with
58:06>> same that the same criteria for
58:07psychologist counselor stuff as well
58:09too. Therapist
58:10>> unless they work for the command.
58:12>> Really?
58:12>> There's a there's they're there to
58:14protect the command. So
58:16>> I wouldn't say [ __ ] to them either.
58:18>> Yeah. [laughter]
58:20Yeah. So um
58:21>> what an interesting carve out.
58:23>> Yeah. that is unfair to the person
58:25sitting there talking to them.
58:28>> Yeah. And it keeps it in house too
58:29though. So it's like one of these things
58:31where you could go out in the military
58:32system now it's on your very openly on
58:35your record.
58:36>> Even though it's you know u your mental
58:38health record it's still um
58:40>> and I don't want to turn this into like
58:42uh I I just think there's there's you
58:45only get what you give. And if I was
58:47more openly and honest, like that trip
58:49coming back, you know how we do those
58:50post-eployment health surveys
58:52>> and you lie on every single one of them?
58:54>> Of course.
58:55>> You're like, did you do you have
58:56nightmares? Do you do you uh
58:59>> um did you experience
59:01>> do you have trouble sleeping?
59:02>> Nope.
59:03>> Yeah. Do you have like malignant
59:06thoughts that you cannot you gets out of
59:08your head? Do you feel less happiness?
59:10You
59:10>> Yeah.
59:11>> Yeah. It's like I want to go on
59:12vacation.
59:13>> I'm I'm good. But this one I actually
59:15enter answered honestly and they looked
59:17at me and they were like, "Kyle, nope.
59:19We're gonna we're gonna take this
59:21serious, but we need you to to to maybe
59:24relook at this." And I was like, "No."
59:27Like that's the honest answers.
59:29>> Yeah.
59:29>> Like I've been very uh vocal with my the
59:32my uh recovery even at a time where
59:35where and that's why I never took my own
59:37life is because I was not above it. It
59:40was circumstantial, but it was I never
59:42closed the door for help.
59:44it all. And I think the Rison Blue
59:46November 20th, 2015 was like the the
59:49sparking event that everything else in
59:52my life became more unmanageable. And
59:54it's very clear looking back now, but
59:57through that process, like you you could
59:58have told me anything, man, and if I
1:00:01wasn't ready to receive it, I'm going to
1:00:02be like, "Okay, yeah, yeah, just give me
1:00:04my pills and shut up." Like the
1:00:07psychiatrist said, he's like, "Kyle, you
1:00:09need uh" He said, he he said, "You've
1:00:12had Delta and you need Disney." He said,
1:00:14"You don't need you don't need uh this
1:00:16is not helping you. Uh it's just a
1:00:19matter of time before this is becomes
1:00:20catastrophic."
1:00:21>> Yeah.
1:00:21>> And this is years into like very
1:00:24publicly, you know, making mistakes when
1:00:26I couldn't hide from him anymore,
1:00:28suffering in silence. and and if you can
1:00:31perform at a performance-based
1:00:33organization,
1:00:35there's not a policy on the wall for
1:00:36that person. So, there's people that
1:00:39despise me because of that. I could have
1:00:41been fired so many times over because of
1:00:42the alcohol-related incidents. But,
1:00:45>> you know, I fast forward to I didn't
1:00:47medically retire. I did make the choice
1:00:49to that my troop leadership fully
1:00:52supported it and after that trip, they
1:00:54were going to let me take the time to go
1:00:55start that process. And you know that
1:00:57was excuse me that was like at 17 18
1:01:00years in um and but before that trip
1:01:06finished so manning obviously manning
1:01:08right it's always the big big talk you
1:01:11know looking at all the things and who
1:01:12assessing who's who's going where and
1:01:14all these things and my TL my my team
1:01:17leader got tasked with taking another
1:01:20position before he finished his time
1:01:23because they needed that that was a
1:01:24higher priority on the bigger picture.
1:01:27So they looked at me and said, "We'd
1:01:30like to offer you the team if if you if
1:01:32you're willing to take it. I know that
1:01:33you want to medically retire, but this
1:01:34if you do this over the next two years,
1:01:36man, like we'll we'll still support you
1:01:38to do the
1:01:39>> the medical retirement." And I dude I
1:01:42was like,
1:01:44"Let me talk to Erica." But there was no
1:01:47real conversation. Yeah. Like I was like
1:01:50I I got chills because that's all I've
1:01:52ever wanted to do
1:01:54or at least thought at the season in my
1:01:57life. And to be offered that, man, oh,
1:02:01it was such a rewarding feeling knowing
1:02:04that especially from where I had come
1:02:06from in the in the recovery. I don't
1:02:08know if it was like I like digging holes
1:02:10or jumping in but or climbing out, man.
1:02:12But I was like, I'm done digging holes,
1:02:13man. this is going to help me finish uh
1:02:16this career the the way that you know
1:02:18the the way that uh
1:02:21I intended, you know, and
1:02:25um I made it a year into my TL time and
1:02:29I started drinking again and um moved
1:02:33out, left Erica again and
1:02:37uh I got that that second alcoholated
1:02:40incident. So
1:02:42this time they looked at me and said,
1:02:46"All right, we're going to move you to
1:02:47J-An."
1:02:50>> Oh, it was like a staff job.
1:02:51>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:02:52>> Working in like on the jock floor and
1:02:54stuff and which is really a really cool
1:02:56broadening experience. And and it and it
1:02:58what it really did which which it wasn't
1:03:01just punishment. It was actually like,
1:03:03hey man, this this guy is running in the
1:03:05red like but but we see something in
1:03:08him.
1:03:08>> Yeah. So, let's give him this time. And
1:03:11it's also punishment. Like, I'm not
1:03:12going to sugarcoat it. It's like, you
1:03:14made this mistake. Here's there's
1:03:15consequences.
1:03:16>> Yeah, they intended it as such, too.
1:03:18They probably intended it as a
1:03:19broadening professional development and
1:03:21then also as punishment,
1:03:22>> which I got to do and experience a lot
1:03:24of things that I wouldn't have. And but
1:03:27and one of the big things that did
1:03:28happen was I I uh I was dealing with
1:03:32migraines every like chronically to
1:03:34where I was prescribed an an auto
1:03:37injection every month. I would have to
1:03:39take it to try to prevent because they
1:03:41were so frequent. But you couple that
1:03:44with all the chronic pain and then the
1:03:47nerve uh what what I thought was
1:03:50shoulder impingements from just torn
1:03:52labrooms and rotator cuffs and stuff
1:03:54like
1:03:56it was actually nerve and nerve damage
1:03:59from my cervical spine radi u cervical
1:04:03ridiculopathy. So I I couldn't feel my
1:04:06hands the way that I used to. I couldn't
1:04:09uh a lot of things were I couldn't I
1:04:10couldn't I couldn't couldn't remember
1:04:12where I was at sometimes I'd pull over
1:04:14and be like where am I going you know
1:04:15and oh it's okay it's just part of the
1:04:18job and um so this time of uh over at
1:04:23J-C
1:04:25I started getting that really assessed I
1:04:27went to Nikico
1:04:28>> same [clears throat]
1:04:29>> yeah and and and it was wonderful but
1:04:32one of the things they did tell me was
1:04:35the neurosurgeon was like and he was my
1:04:38third consult surgery-wise here cuz the
1:04:41you could see the inflammation up and
1:04:42down my spinal cord of how it was
1:04:44impinging at that C6 C7 level and the
1:04:48C5C6 or just above it but that was
1:04:51really where it was focused and it was
1:04:52causing inflammation up and down my
1:04:54spinal cord which was probably the root
1:04:56cause of the migraines and
1:05:00because they they tried everything Botox
1:05:02and all occipital blocks and all that
1:05:05stuff
1:05:06>> and I used to have to take all the
1:05:07abortive meds and all that stuff too.
1:05:09And um but the third consult the first
1:05:13consult was an orthospine at Wulmac and
1:05:15he was like let's do a disc replacement
1:05:17and he's like showing me the thing. I
1:05:18told this story with Mike but he's like
1:05:20showing me the thing. He's like this is
1:05:21what it looks like and then and he drops
1:05:23it and I was like next like no way dude
1:05:26[laughter] I am not I was in a place
1:05:27where claustrophobia was starting to
1:05:29become a thing. I had to get all these
1:05:30MRIs and stuff. I was like what is going
1:05:32on? I've been put in some very small
1:05:34boxes
1:05:35>> in through our trainings, you know, and
1:05:37it's like never experienced
1:05:39claustrophobia, but it was very much
1:05:42like manifesting. And um
1:05:45uh it long story short is that I ended
1:05:48up you know getting that last consult
1:05:50with the neurosurgeon up at Wulmarmac
1:05:52and he was like Kyle if you want to be
1:05:55able to like play with your youngest
1:05:57daughter which you got to meet Ken
1:05:58[clears throat] um in 5 10 years like
1:06:01you need to get this because you have
1:06:03early stages of of the symptoms of early
1:06:05stages of cervical myopathy and
1:06:07apparently it plateaus and then it just
1:06:10completely falls off to where you're
1:06:12going to be in a wheelchair.
1:06:13So, I was like, "Okay, let's do it." And
1:06:16I did it. But in the process of that, a
1:06:18couple things happened. COVID stopped
1:06:20everything. I didn't see another
1:06:22in-person doc uh for a year. And it was
1:06:26just pain med prescription after pain
1:06:27med after pain med to the point where I
1:06:29was just asking for it, not needing it.
1:06:32Um, initially it was like, this is what
1:06:34it feels like to not be in chronic pain,
1:06:35not just from this, but the lower
1:06:37extremities and everything, the back.
1:06:40Um, but I realized because I I think
1:06:44they were going to give me an
1:06:45opportunity to come back. I would
1:06:46probably had started as a 2IC and then
1:06:48worked my way back up. Um, and this is
1:06:50me speaking from my own personal opinion
1:06:53on that. I don't know. But I did come
1:06:55back. I did go back. I did I think five
1:06:58months there, but part of that was
1:06:59recovery from the fusion on my C6C7. But
1:07:03through that recovery, um, I called my
1:07:07squadron, CSM, and I was like, "Hey, I'm
1:07:09I'm not I'm not going to come back to
1:07:11the squadron. If you were going to allow
1:07:13me to, I don't I can't go back to being
1:07:15operational, but I do want to continue
1:07:17to serve in this unit. If there's
1:07:19something else that you think I can do,
1:07:21I will absolutely do it." And he
1:07:23respected that, and he did. They did let
1:07:25me come back and they were going to have
1:07:28me do the breaching SAR major position.
1:07:31And I got so excited about that because
1:07:33one of my other uh developmental
1:07:35punishments was to be the master
1:07:37breacher for a period when I was sitting
1:07:39sitting out for the squadron. So I was
1:07:43very passionate and I still am but I
1:07:45just don't deal with explosives anymore
1:07:46for my own personal health and um some
1:07:51new energy young energy not new but uh
1:07:54leading that charge there from the
1:07:56research and development to the all the
1:07:58aspects it's a very important position
1:08:00in that organization
1:08:02>> and I was honored that they would offer
1:08:03that to me so I did the right seat ride
1:08:05through the breaching course and was
1:08:07around blast for had been six seven
1:08:10months probably since I'd been around
1:08:11blast passed and I couldn't leave my
1:08:13room. I couldn't leave my room because I
1:08:16had so the migraines were so bad that
1:08:21I couldn't even like have the I had like
1:08:24um drape curtains over the blinds and
1:08:26stuff. It was so bad.
1:08:28>> So then I go back to them. I'm like I
1:08:30can't do that job either. And it was um
1:08:34once again they were like all right well
1:08:35we'll we'll find something that we can
1:08:37you can sink your your teeth into.
1:08:38there's a lot of things that we're we're
1:08:40doing and you know uh changing up and
1:08:43and I was like okay um and it was um and
1:08:48I did those things and nothing
1:08:51I was I felt like a jobless operator and
1:08:54just kind of just push uh uh for the
1:08:58first time in a long time felt like I
1:09:00was just kind of there which is like I
1:09:03don't know if that place exists for you
1:09:05to feel like you're just there. Um, it's
1:09:08an honor, but it was something that was
1:09:12starting to really consume me, and I was
1:09:15letting it start to destroy me. And
1:09:19[clears throat]
1:09:20um, that led to I'm going to I'm going
1:09:24to put in my my retirement paperwork. I
1:09:25I had just picked up E9 at 19 years and
1:09:29I had to decline it to put in the the
1:09:31paperwork to retire.
1:09:33>> Just normal retirement, 20 years.
1:09:35>> And a year out, you do that. And I got
1:09:37my retirement orders in July of 2021
1:09:42and already had lined up some
1:09:43internships in Texas and was like, I'm
1:09:47going to go reinvent myself at this data
1:09:49science company and this this uh Texas,
1:09:52you know, uh bullion depository. They
1:09:54buy and sell precious metal and or a
1:09:56vault for precious metal and stuff. And
1:09:58I was I had to line those up and I was
1:10:00excited about those and um I was given
1:10:03those opportunities. I didn't like line
1:10:06those up myself. It was there was a lot
1:10:08of things that they were doing would
1:10:10that go back to the transition piece
1:10:11like that are helping guys make that
1:10:14transition. So I I at a year they let us
1:10:16go out and do that for 6 months and you
1:10:19know July comes around. I get my my
1:10:21retirement orders. I'm leaving for
1:10:24Austin, Texas like July 16th I think or
1:10:2715th
1:10:28to start the internships. And
1:10:30[clears throat] July 8th, I got a DUI
1:10:34and I
1:10:37didn't tell anybody. I called a lawyer
1:10:40the next morning cuz the fir the first
1:10:41two times I the first people I called
1:10:43was my my leadership.
1:10:44>> Yeah.
1:10:46>> And this one I was like, "No, I can't.
1:10:50They're going to they're going to take
1:10:51my retirement." And I was in
1:10:53selfpreservation mode and I didn't tell
1:10:55anybody. And my lawyer was like, "If
1:10:59they don't know, don't tell them, and
1:11:01I'm going to get this thing um continued
1:11:03until after your retirement."
1:11:06And I was like, "You can do that." And
1:11:09he did. Um but man, that and then
1:11:13[clears throat] I left a week later for
1:11:15Texas. Now I'm out of sight, out of
1:11:17mind,
1:11:19not anywhere close to the command,
1:11:22like on my own.
1:11:22>> Were you on terminal leave at that
1:11:24point?
1:11:24>> No, I was It was the the year. So once
1:11:26once you and the army does this too, but
1:11:29it's the windows are a little different
1:11:30of when you can do it. Yeah.
1:11:32>> Through the army skillbridge program.
1:11:34It's
1:11:34>> Oh, so you were still active duty, but
1:11:35they were basically giving you time to
1:11:36transition.
1:11:37>> Yeah.
1:11:37>> That's fantastic.
1:11:38>> Yeah. Yeah. So that so basically where
1:11:41the army does this uh maybe they've
1:11:43changed it, but like they don't let guys
1:11:45go and do those internships until the
1:11:47last six months, which come on man, you
1:11:49got all kinds of things that you can't
1:11:50do until certain points. You can't clear
1:11:52this, you can't get this signature, you
1:11:54can't do that. And that takes you being
1:11:55at your duty station.
1:11:57>> Yeah.
1:11:58>> The unit allowed us to do it at a year.
1:12:01And that way we know when we come back
1:12:02after only having that 6 months left,
1:12:04you could just do all your clearing
1:12:06stuff and and then
1:12:08>> go on, you know.
1:12:09>> So they you're on active duty and but
1:12:11>> you're you're on permissive TDY is what
1:12:12it is.
1:12:12>> That's to start pursuing your civilian
1:12:14career. That's fantastic.
1:12:16It is one of the one of the best things
1:12:18that I think that that's
1:12:21uh trickled down into the greater
1:12:23military or the army.
1:12:25>> Yeah.
1:12:25>> Um through their skill bridge to the
1:12:27point where blue bearing like we're
1:12:29going to become we've had two two
1:12:31interns uh that were uh younger
1:12:34transitioning out first enlistments or
1:12:36you know uh and wanting to pursue a
1:12:38career in law enforcement and we did an
1:12:40official internship with them. It's it's
1:12:41a wonderful program.
1:12:44But I went down there knowing that I'm
1:12:46hiding a DUI, lying by omission.
1:12:50>> Um,
1:12:52and I'm learning how to do these things
1:12:54and I'm like, at first I'm like, "Oh,
1:12:56this is great. I got to become
1:12:57technically literate. I got to how do
1:13:00how can I help here?" You know, and it's
1:13:01like, well, how about you and you just
1:13:02turn and face each other as you're doing
1:13:05this, you know?
1:13:07>> Side by side.
1:13:08>> Yeah. like they're just like literally
1:13:11they're working on the same thing
1:13:12towards the same goal and they're like
1:13:15why haven't we had a successful sprint
1:13:16and like the past however many and this
1:13:18is the data science piece of it
1:13:20>> cuz I was like guys
1:13:22>> I'm not learning how to code like it's
1:13:23not in my it's not in my uh my uh
1:13:27>> wasn't put on earth for this
1:13:29>> no no [laughter] so but I did
1:13:31>> that skill
1:13:32>> but it's like just like any of us though
1:13:34like becoming a valued added member
1:13:37>> Yeah
1:13:37>> and I had to become come technically
1:13:39literate in the sense of like can I keep
1:13:42uh can I be a part of this conversation
1:13:44without being lost like completely lost
1:13:47so that that helped me for a a little
1:13:49while in the earlier stages of that
1:13:51internship stuff but um
1:13:54I just started like this is easy and
1:13:57they don't really they're not asking too
1:13:58much of me so I'd start like working
1:14:00remotely
1:14:02which is like why um so with at postcoid
1:14:05like that was a big a big part of every
1:14:08every company, you know, learning how to
1:14:09do that or being forced to do it. And it
1:14:12became more of a norm, I guess. Um, but
1:14:15that was just an excuse for me to go and
1:14:16party. And I wouldn't just go cuz I knew
1:14:20I couldn't be out like at bars and stuff
1:14:23like that cuz I would I was a liability
1:14:26when I drank. And, you know, I had came
1:14:30off of all the prescription meds too,
1:14:32all the um opioids. And that was
1:14:36that's when the drinking really picked
1:14:38up and then that wasn't enough to
1:14:40replace that um what the opioids were
1:14:43doing. And that's [clears throat] when,
1:14:45you know, I'd say August, September of
1:14:47that of 2021,
1:14:49um got exposed in at a strip club
1:14:52because I would go to strip clubs
1:14:53>> just cuz I was like I just want to feel
1:14:55good, look at women like and not deal
1:14:59with people and just be very primitive,
1:15:01I guess, you know, and
1:15:04>> um I uh
1:15:08but back there and see cocaine and I had
1:15:11never experienced cocaine and I I was,
1:15:13let me see that. And that opened the
1:15:15floodgates for [clears throat]
1:15:17trying to chase that. Like whatever that
1:15:20was, I was like 30 minutes at a time. I
1:15:24didn't feel anything but good. And it
1:15:26was very shortlived, man. Because how
1:15:28dangerous any of those elicit substances
1:15:30are, man. Like just with the fentanyl
1:15:33and how they're cutting them, everything
1:15:35with so with with with fentanyl. And
1:15:38then you think about the the opioids,
1:15:40like you're not being prescribed
1:15:43anymore, but you can find them on the on
1:15:45the on the u
1:15:47>> black market,
1:15:47>> the black market side. And what are
1:15:49they? They look like a percoet. They
1:15:50look like a Vicodin. They look like the
1:15:52same thing, but it's just fentanyl.
1:15:54>> Yeah.
1:15:55>> Like and pillressed and all the things
1:15:57like
1:15:57>> it's so dangerous, man. It's taken so
1:15:59many lives and it almost took mine. And
1:16:02um so I almost died from a fentanyl
1:16:05overdose which I thought was cocaine and
1:16:07and
1:16:08>> how heavy were you using? Um, I mean
1:16:11anytime, so not to make light of this,
1:16:14but Theo Vaughn said something that I
1:16:16really did connect with and um, he said,
1:16:19"Man, I just can't drink anymore, man."
1:16:20Because every time, you know, two
1:16:22bottles of beer turns into seven bottles
1:16:24of cocaine. And I was like, I can
1:16:27actually relate to that. Because the
1:16:28moment drinking was always this
1:16:30connection of of being able to let my
1:16:33hair down. And then it was then once I
1:16:35got exposed to that cocaine, it was
1:16:38like, "Let me go find that." The pursuit
1:16:40of it even became this like challenge
1:16:42like how to find it and just the places
1:16:44you put yourself to get it. And it was
1:16:45just like it wasn't daily, but it was
1:16:48the same way with my alcoholism.
1:16:50Like I was a high functioning alcoholic.
1:16:53Like if I had something the next day, I
1:16:55would not show up under the influence.
1:16:57>> Mhm.
1:16:58>> I didn't need to wake up and drink. I
1:17:00didn't need to wake up and use a drug.
1:17:02Is that how you self-justified?
1:17:03>> That's exactly how I rationalized
1:17:05everything up to that point. A lot of
1:17:07things that are like on the surface
1:17:08people are like, "How in the heck
1:17:10>> do you rationalize those things?" And
1:17:12I'm like,
1:17:12>> what? I don't know. I did. It's the
1:17:13human condition.
1:17:14>> What they're hearing you describe is an
1:17:16incredibly accomplished highlevel KAG
1:17:18operator who has left the command on a
1:17:21one-year, what' you call it, permissive
1:17:23TDY?
1:17:23>> It was a six-month permissive TDI.
1:17:25>> Sixmonth permissive TDY.
1:17:26>> So, you just can't get paid by those
1:17:27internships.
1:17:28>> Correct. and
1:17:31focusing on the next what you're
1:17:34>> all while hiding a DUI.
1:17:35>> That's what I'm saying. And the
1:17:38behaviors that you're talking about that
1:17:40>> people are going to have a tough time
1:17:43aligning those two things.
1:17:45>> Yeah.
1:17:46>> Well, I did it. It's not recommended.
1:17:48So, don't do it. Um, but there's hope.
1:17:51That's that's the reason I'm talking.
1:17:52That's going to take this full circle
1:17:54about the public eye, you know, and all
1:17:56these things. The reason I'm I'm in the
1:17:58public, is to is to be to be a positive
1:18:01male role model at home, which I am, cuz
1:18:05[clears throat] I am the same man that's
1:18:07in front of you right now as I am when I
1:18:08go home.
1:18:09>> Mhm.
1:18:10>> And whether I'm training people that
1:18:12takes me away from home, they got the
1:18:14same husband, the same father that's
1:18:16representing and carrying them with with
1:18:18everywhere I go. It's no longer about
1:18:21what can I do, what can I do, what can I
1:18:24accomplish? like it's a it's a it truly
1:18:26is like service. I'm in I am a servant
1:18:30leader that I'm in service to my wife,
1:18:32my children, and then my community. And
1:18:35those are very
1:18:37like some of the gifts that God's given
1:18:40given me and and so many others of of to
1:18:42be able to communicate that uh through
1:18:45teaching, through shooting, moving,
1:18:47communicating, medicating.
1:18:48>> Do you think you were the only one
1:18:50struggling like that? And I'm not trying
1:18:51to get you to air out anybody from your
1:18:54community. What I can say with 100%
1:18:57certainty what you are describing the
1:19:00behaviors the internal struggle the
1:19:02addictions
1:19:05Navy side of the house has plenty of
1:19:06people that were are struggling with
1:19:07that as well too. What I see though,
1:19:09man, so to answer your question is
1:19:12suffering and silence, man. Like
1:19:14absolutely suffering and silence and and
1:19:16and comparison is the thief of joy.
1:19:20Like, well, those guys are doing this
1:19:22and that and they didn't get who cares.
1:19:25What I care about is what I'm doing with
1:19:26those experiences given the opportunity
1:19:29I get to versus I have to. I'm no longer
1:19:33a victim of of in my life. And I was for
1:19:37and one of my anchoring scriptures is 1
1:19:39Corinthians 13:11 of the childish ways
1:19:40of thinking and acting have to cease
1:19:42when you become a man. It took me 37
1:19:45years to become a man.
1:19:47Almost 5 years of sobriety
1:19:49>> at this point today.
1:19:50>> Yeah.
1:19:51>> That's awesome, man. Congratulations.
1:19:52>> Thank you. And
1:19:55four years of following Christ. So to
1:19:59me, I've got I'm very young, you know,
1:20:01and but I have a lot of wisdom
1:20:03>> through experience.
1:20:06and it doesn't erase any of those
1:20:07things. But but the the freedom that
1:20:10I've been able to to access through
1:20:13those decisions, everything I have is
1:20:15anchoring on my sobriety. I don't
1:20:17ruminate on being an alcoholic. I don't
1:20:19I will go to an AA meeting with you,
1:20:20with anyone, with anyone that's that
1:20:22that I can help by being there. But I I
1:20:25refuse to sit there and say, "I'm Kyle.
1:20:27I'm an alcoholic." Because I'm not. I
1:20:30was. I've been made new. And people can
1:20:33can say what they want about this, but
1:20:35to be washed in the blood of Christ has
1:20:38given me this opportunity, which is
1:20:40freedom is true freedom. And I can
1:20:43describe this as the instinct in the
1:20:45action, the space is where freedom lies.
1:20:49And you know what else is in there that
1:20:51I'll never rob myself of or let anyone
1:20:53else is peace and joy. It's no longer
1:20:57pleasure. It's joy. Mhm.
1:20:59>> Like this morning looking at the sunset,
1:21:01not not being able to sleep. I could
1:21:03have been really angry,
1:21:05>> but it was
1:21:06>> for clarity. We should describe though
1:21:07why you can't sleep that
1:21:09>> we're in a little bit more of the
1:21:10northern latitude up here.
1:21:12>> Sun went down last night about 10:30. We
1:21:15were talking on the phone at it was in
1:21:16the 9:00 hour. You're like, "Man, I
1:21:17don't know what time it is." Like,
1:21:18"Yeah, it gets like that up here."
1:21:20>> And then you were like, "It also sunrise
1:21:22around 5 or so." [laughter] And and it's
1:21:24beautiful that we have like for the
1:21:26Airbnb,
1:21:27>> but man, it was just like whatever.
1:21:30>> Yeah.
1:21:30>> Like, okay, I didn't sleep well. What am
1:21:32I going to do? Quit?
1:21:34>> Yeah.
1:21:34>> Um or be present, be where my feet are?
1:21:37And I got to have a moment, an
1:21:40experience with my wife in the morning
1:21:43as she's doing her uh reading and her
1:21:46reflection
1:21:48and um and to share that space with her
1:21:51and the and the in the sunrise. It was
1:21:53just such a beautiful thing and that's
1:21:56that's one of the reasons why I'm here
1:21:58and obviously and you know your
1:22:00willingness to allow me to come on the
1:22:02podcast and I I'm very appreciative for
1:22:04you making this happen. But my point is
1:22:07is the freedom of the inst between the
1:22:08instinct and the action. The instincts
1:22:11are going to come. The intrusive
1:22:12thoughts are going to come. That's why
1:22:14Paul tells us to take every thought
1:22:15captive because it's the hardest thing
1:22:17to do because they're racing thousands
1:22:19of miles an hour. But I have somewhere
1:22:21to go with it. And I don't when I feel
1:22:24something after a thought, okay,
1:22:27feelings don't drive my life anymore.
1:22:29It's just a gauge. It's a blessing. And
1:22:32then my actions, like I don't
1:22:35things look differently now. I act
1:22:37differently. I think differently. I'm a
1:22:38man. And um you know, but I wasn't back
1:22:43then. I was uh lost. If you don't know
1:22:45where you're going, any road will take
1:22:47you there. That's how I've lived my life
1:22:50up to that 37y old mark.
1:22:53And it took like it took true sobriety,
1:22:57which I learned in the rooms of AA. I
1:22:59did. It led me to a a true belief,
1:23:02surrender of a power, a powerlessness,
1:23:04>> no longer it's weakness. It's an it's an
1:23:06asset. Turning it into an asset.
1:23:08>> And then a surrender of that affliction
1:23:11to a higher power and your life. That's
1:23:14the part that people miss. Like they're
1:23:16like, "Yes, I'm going to surrender this
1:23:18affliction to that power,
1:23:21but also my life." And that's what
1:23:24changed. And um I began helped me helped
1:23:26me see that. And
1:23:29um I won't advocate for psychedelics at
1:23:32large, but Ibegan is different. And it
1:23:35um
1:23:36I've done a lot of different treatment
1:23:38modalities and all of the reason that
1:23:39that Ibegan was able to be as effective
1:23:42as it was is because of all those things
1:23:45and and and being ready to receive
1:23:49because it doesn't matter what you do.
1:23:50If you're not ready to receive it,
1:23:51you're going to go back to doing those
1:23:53other things. and
1:23:55>> to but to come to finish the the part
1:23:57that I'm
1:23:59the lying by omission piece
1:24:02was something that had I gotten away
1:24:04with I would not be sitting in front of
1:24:06you Andy there's no way there's no way
1:24:11so coming back from all that having just
1:24:14overdosed towards the end of that year
1:24:15mind you July went down to got the DUI
1:24:18July 8th July 15th I'm in Texas August
1:24:22September I get exposed osed to cocaine
1:24:24very short-lived and overdosed.
1:24:28>> Did you get Narcan to come back?
1:24:29>> Yep. Yeah.
1:24:30>> And then which it was a near-death
1:24:32experience, man. I I literally saw
1:24:34myself from outside of my body
1:24:36>> like coming back and forth, but like
1:24:39what I saw was I was disgusted with. I
1:24:44looked at myself and I was like, who is
1:24:46this man? I could no longer rationalize
1:24:49acting the ways I was acting. I don't
1:24:51care how skilled I thought I was. Like
1:24:55um risk is relative.
1:24:57>> Um which I do believe that risk can be
1:25:00mitigated with collective and individual
1:25:02experience, but that applied to
1:25:03everything in my life.
1:25:05>> And that point though, like they circled
1:25:09the wagons again, the unit, and they
1:25:11were like, "Kyle, um did they know about
1:25:14the overdose?"
1:25:15>> Oh yeah.
1:25:15>> I'm assuming that was probably a
1:25:16mandatory report by the police. No, it
1:25:19was so just people that I was working
1:25:21with um down there. Um
1:25:25>> not to try to drop a dime on me, they
1:25:28were just like Kyle needs help.
1:25:29>> Yeah.
1:25:29>> And he is
1:25:30>> they were doing it in your best
1:25:31interest.
1:25:31>> Yes. Absolutely. So, thank you to those
1:25:33guys, man. I love you guys. And I know
1:25:35that I'm not I'm not in uh connected
1:25:38with a lot of the people that I used to
1:25:39be, but I still care about y'all. And I
1:25:41I appreciate everything that you guys
1:25:42have done for me and my family. And um
1:25:46but they circled the wagons again, man,
1:25:48and they were just like, "How what's
1:25:49going on, man? Like, we've tried so many
1:25:51different things. You've tried so many.
1:25:53You've been very vocal with all these
1:25:54things. We know that you're putting in
1:25:55the work. Like, what's what's missing?"
1:25:58And I was like, "I don't know. I I have
1:26:00to get sober." And I I don't I've never
1:26:03gotten sober for anyone else other than
1:26:05uh never gotten sober for myself. I've
1:26:08abstained for
1:26:11uh appearances, for perspective, or
1:26:13perceptions. Mhm.
1:26:14>> Uh to go back to doing this job and I
1:26:17need to I need to retire and wasn't a
1:26:20given. They could have made me they
1:26:22could have taken all of that right then
1:26:24and they they said all right we're going
1:26:26to we're going to let you carry on with
1:26:28your retirement. I sign I was signing
1:26:30out March or end of March of 22
1:26:34and you know just was did all my
1:26:36clearing and you know did all the
1:26:39mandatory Army substance abuse stuff.
1:26:41Now,
1:26:42>> that's the thing, too. They they no
1:26:43longer let this like go outside of the
1:26:45military channels. They got a Goar um or
1:26:48no, got the Goar after. And that's what
1:26:51I'm about to say is so now I'm going
1:26:54through the army substance abuse and
1:26:56that was now it's like very military
1:26:59rigid. Everything else it was like the
1:27:00unit trying to find other creative ways
1:27:02to to get me help but to to maybe avoid
1:27:05the the bigger military record stuff. So
1:27:09>> um and
1:27:13uh my my security clearance like uh the
1:27:15personnel security called and said to my
1:27:18direct supervisor like there we got a
1:27:20flag in Kyle's security clearance and
1:27:23I'm not there. I'm driving around doing
1:27:25something. I don't know. And um my
1:27:28direct supervisor calls me and he's like
1:27:30Kyle security just called. They said
1:27:32they this flag for DUI back in July came
1:27:34up. And I had an opportunity right then
1:27:37to to come clean and I let the pause and
1:27:41then he said, "Are they talking about
1:27:43the one that you got two years ago?" And
1:27:45I was like, "Oh man, they must be."
1:27:48And I I say it in a very like I'm lying
1:27:51kind of perspective, but I was very
1:27:53deceptive with how I said that.
1:27:55>> Yeah. and um immediately
1:27:59knew that that was wrong, but hung up
1:28:01the phone and went into straight panic,
1:28:05self-preservation mode. But ultimately,
1:28:08I I drove to my direct supervisor's
1:28:11house that that afternoon, that evening,
1:28:14and uh and told him I came clean. No,
1:28:16that was that was a DUI that happened
1:28:18before I went down to Texas, and I I
1:28:20didn't tell you guys about it.
1:28:23And
1:28:26That's that character defect that there
1:28:28was many, but that was one that was
1:28:30still was was there that had it not
1:28:33happened exactly the way it happened, I
1:28:36wouldn't be here right now cuz
1:28:37everything would I would have gotten
1:28:38away with something. I'd have retired
1:28:40with honor and and gotten away with
1:28:43something. So, what the unit did,
1:28:47they didn't take my retirement. They let
1:28:49me keep my retirement orders intact
1:28:51signing to sign out on terminal leave
1:28:53exactly when I was going to already.
1:28:56>> They they administratively moved me from
1:28:58the unit to to USOC which is special
1:29:00operations unit army special operations
1:29:02command right down the street
1:29:05>> to retire from there. So, I did two
1:29:08months at USIsac and I signed out um on
1:29:11terminal leave and
1:29:15that's how I left the unit. And
1:29:18it's one of those things where my
1:29:20abilities masked a lot of the the
1:29:24struggles I was going through. My
1:29:25ability to perform at a very high level
1:29:27at a place where you struggle to be
1:29:29mediocre every day. And my identity was
1:29:32so wrapped up in it. And this is the
1:29:34part where you know I don't know if it
1:29:37can't be like but it can't be the only
1:29:41piece of your identity or if it's the
1:29:43only thing you have when it goes away
1:29:45you are absolutely lost and you're never
1:29:47going to replace that. There's nothing
1:29:49else out there like it.
1:29:51>> I don't think you can operate at those
1:29:53levels without it consuming you to a
1:29:54degree.
1:29:55>> Yeah. But I think not managing that
1:29:58consumption or not being aware of it is
1:30:01where it gets very very dangerous. You
1:30:04know, you say it took you 37 years to
1:30:06become a man and get a handle on it.
1:30:07Let's say that that had happened. Let's
1:30:10roll back 15 years before that you were
1:30:13able to perform. I love the way that you
1:30:15said that. Perform at a high level at a
1:30:16place where people struggle to be
1:30:17mediocre every day. That is literally
1:30:20the best description I've ever heard of
1:30:22the people that I worked around.
1:30:23>> When people say,
1:30:24>> so humbling, man. Well, people say,
1:30:25"Andy, why do you always say your career
1:30:26is average?" I'm like, "You don't know
1:30:27the guys I work with." [laughter]
1:30:29>> And legitimately, it was. But if you
1:30:32would have had that realization and
1:30:33awakening
1:30:3515 years before, what do you think it
1:30:37would have done to your ability to
1:30:38perform at that place?
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1:32:18Back to the show.
1:32:21You know, I don't I don't think about
1:32:23things like that. I I think it's a
1:32:25wonderful question. [sighs]
1:32:27Um I used to think about a lot of things
1:32:29if I would have done them differently.
1:32:31>> Mh.
1:32:32>> But for me, we'll answer the question,
1:32:35but my point is is that I I'm not God.
1:32:38So I don't I don't live in the past and
1:32:40try to change anything. I'm
1:32:41>> not trying to get you to live in the the
1:32:43past. The the mind space that I'm
1:32:46thinking of this from and this is a uh
1:32:51a thought that or a question that I
1:32:53don't have the answer to, but it it
1:32:57comes down to what is the cost of that
1:33:00occupation?
1:33:03A lot of people the cost expresses
1:33:05itself in the struggles that you were
1:33:07talking about. We both know plenty of
1:33:09friends and peers that have had
1:33:11substance abuse issues, chemical abuse
1:33:13issues,
1:33:13>> taking their own life,
1:33:15>> taking their own life. And then a lot of
1:33:16the things that led up to that as well
1:33:19too.
1:33:21And the question I guess is,
1:33:24is it possible
1:33:27to work at that level at those places
1:33:30and not have some of that residual
1:33:33darkness stick to you?
1:33:37If if your identity is anchored in
1:33:39something bigger than you. Yes.
1:33:40>> Yeah.
1:33:41>> And I I saw it.
1:33:43>> But even beyond the identity piece, what
1:33:45they ask from a time and commitment and
1:33:48focus
1:33:49>> it's absolutely going to impact and
1:33:50change you.
1:33:51>> Yeah.
1:33:51>> And there's been guys that are are more
1:33:53vocal. Derek Natalini is one of them
1:33:55that worked there for a long time. Did a
1:33:57lot of really awesome things and was a
1:33:59follower and a believer uh in God and
1:34:02Christ. But it it it changed. So, and
1:34:06then Tom Spooner is another example of
1:34:08he he served there sober.
1:34:11>> He'd been sober far far before he got
1:34:14there,
1:34:15>> but it still was a massive part of his
1:34:19his own recovery and healing. Uh he
1:34:22didn't, you know, relapse on it. He
1:34:24didn't compromise his sobriety, but man,
1:34:26it changed every aspect of him. Ask his
1:34:28wife, Lori. And he he talks about it
1:34:31very publicly. So I I think the guys
1:34:32that to answer the question of could I
1:34:35how would it have changed my service
1:34:37there?
1:34:38>> Meaning do you think you would have been
1:34:40an even better operator?
1:34:42>> I I think so.
1:34:43>> Yeah.
1:34:44>> I think so because even though I didn't
1:34:47have the words that to put to my values,
1:34:49my values were the army values and they
1:34:52were very situational.
1:34:54Um
1:34:56the words were but the but the moral
1:34:59injury that would happen over and over
1:35:02that just compounds and compounds. I was
1:35:04just like
1:35:07this isn't right. Like I don't know
1:35:09what's wrong but I don't feel good about
1:35:11myself and why I'm doing what I'm asked
1:35:13to do.
1:35:14I'm seeing the things that I'm being
1:35:16called to be in in the environments and
1:35:19and intimately taking other human beings
1:35:21lives over and over and it's like well
1:35:24this is my job not everybody can do it.
1:35:26It started to become for me about me. I
1:35:30can do it and that's why the Rison was
1:35:31such a a pivotal point if I because I've
1:35:36thought about that a lot too is like why
1:35:37has that lasted or impacted me so much.
1:35:40Mhm.
1:35:40>> It was very different in the sense of
1:35:42like the biggest thing was I thought I
1:35:45was better than I was.
1:35:47>> So I thought I was more capable and it
1:35:49exposed me because of the team. Yeah.
1:35:51>> Is great.
1:35:53>> I am okay if I can be a part of that
1:35:55team. It's such an honor and I'm going
1:35:57to serve well and I did. But and you
1:36:00could trust me. You didn't have to think
1:36:01about what I was doing when you went
1:36:02left, I go right. Like you didn't have
1:36:03to think about that.
1:36:05>> That's the brothers in arms, man. That's
1:36:07the the the very different than a
1:36:09brotherhood, which we talk about
1:36:10brotherhood a lot and it's it's very
1:36:12different. Um, [snorts]
1:36:13>> how much are you able to say about the
1:36:15Rison? I know that there are
1:36:16sensitivities.
1:36:18>> Um, and also you covered it well on with
1:36:21Sean and Mike, so we don't necessarily
1:36:23need to retread on that,
1:36:24>> but I also don't want to diminish. I
1:36:26mean, you that you were awarded the
1:36:27Distinguished Service Cross for that,
1:36:29which is the second highest award uh in
1:36:31the US military.
1:36:34I'll leave it up to you if if you want
1:36:35to cover the specifics because I know
1:36:37here's what people want. They want Andy
1:36:39and
1:36:39>> they want you to they want me to share
1:36:40something that they haven't heard.
1:36:41>> They want us to sit down and they want
1:36:43us to tell war stories and I am so
1:36:46resoundingly uninterested in that.
1:36:48>> What I am interested in
1:36:51is what you described even with somebody
1:36:53like Tom Spooner where he had sobriety
1:36:57in check but it changed the person that
1:36:59he was. I am way more interested in
1:37:01talking in the cost. Yeah.
1:37:03>> of what what that job will change in
1:37:07you. Because one of the questions I was
1:37:08going to ask you is how do we prepare
1:37:10young men and women now depending on
1:37:13where you're at inside those
1:37:14organizations. How do you prepare them
1:37:16for that?
1:37:17>> Yeah.
1:37:17>> Can you prepare them from that? But
1:37:19again, I know that the Rison is pivotal.
1:37:20It's interesting to me that you said
1:37:22though pivotal for you because of the
1:37:25individual versus the team setting.
1:37:28>> Yeah.
1:37:28>> I will let you describe that situation
1:37:30to whatever degree you want. I will say
1:37:32though, you did a uh with Sean and Mike
1:37:34Rland. If people want to go get they
1:37:36want to do a deep dive into that, I
1:37:37think it's been told well I'd rather
1:37:39talk about the cost associated with it.
1:37:41>> Even when I talk about it, it's to get
1:37:43to the cost.
1:37:44>> Yeah.
1:37:44>> But not just to leave it at the cost.
1:37:46It's to leave people with hope. Uh
1:37:48that's going back to this this higher
1:37:50mission, this this new mission of of
1:37:52being a positive male role model for our
1:37:54n our n our nation's youth, the next
1:37:57service members, the current ones, the
1:37:59guys that are older than me. like it's
1:38:02being an example with my actions and
1:38:05then words. So finding the words to
1:38:07share, putting putting words to my
1:38:10values
1:38:11>> uh and not violating those because
1:38:14integrity is not is not situational. But
1:38:19if you the and that's the the human
1:38:22nature side of this is like we do things
1:38:25and then it impacts us and we can't make
1:38:27sense of it but then we keep doing them
1:38:29some and then we expect why we're
1:38:32surprised why it's impacting us in a
1:38:34deeper way now or a more aggressive way
1:38:37and then we try to blame something else.
1:38:40I'll blame my wife. She's the problem.
1:38:43Um this the Rison for one I think this
1:38:48takes it kind of full circle back full
1:38:49full circle back to the this this uh the
1:38:53delegation of tasks the empowerment the
1:38:55one up two down thing
1:38:57>> very clear I was in the right place at
1:39:00the right time and I am absolutely the
1:39:02right person because of those
1:39:04organizations that I work for
1:39:07>> and this inherent nature to protect it's
1:39:11inside inside of all of us
1:39:12>> and to run towards the sound of the
1:39:14guns.
1:39:14>> Yep. And and
1:39:17all the things I had done up to that
1:39:19point prepared me for
1:39:22being in the right place at the right
1:39:23time and moving to the sounds of gunfire
1:39:27based on painting a picture real time.
1:39:30And what it really was, and this is why
1:39:32I I'm so passionate, our vertical as a
1:39:35as a company, a training company, is
1:39:36active attack, active shooter response
1:39:38training,
1:39:39>> because this was a terrorist planned
1:39:42hit, attack, excuse me, but it was an
1:39:46active attack. It was an active shooter
1:39:48and it was just I was on a deployment
1:39:49wearing a suit to an embassy to the US
1:39:52embassy, maintaining a relationship so
1:39:54we could hand it off to you. You guys,
1:39:56your former
1:39:57>> Oh, really?
1:39:57>> Yeah. So we could go
1:39:58>> Thank you for that, by the So we could
1:39:59Yeah, you're welcome. [laughter]
1:40:01>> Good job flicking flicking the booger.
1:40:03>> And it's not that there wasn't work to
1:40:05do there. There was so much work from a
1:40:06counterterrorism perspective because of
1:40:08al-Qaeda, AQIM, I know
1:40:10>> ISIS built built back in there, but we
1:40:14only Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. My
1:40:16goodness, there are deep deep pockets in
1:40:18other places.
1:40:19>> So this this attack though, I was I was
1:40:22lost, man. I didn't want to be there. I
1:40:25was like, my team is is going after
1:40:27ISIS. I had just spent a couple months
1:40:29kind of no notice going after ISIS that
1:40:31year and I was like let's go. Um but
1:40:34then I got told and told like we need
1:40:37you to do this this one.
1:40:38>> Y
1:40:39>> and I wasn't supposed to be doing it.
1:40:40Someone else was and they they looked at
1:40:42their leadership and said I don't feel
1:40:44comfortable you know wearing a suit and
1:40:46talking to the inter agency folks and
1:40:47stuff and I was like what do you mean?
1:40:50And either way, um, when that call
1:40:54happened in the morning, it was really
1:40:55early in the morning, I got a phone call
1:40:57from someone that worked at the embassy
1:40:59about an active attack and I didn't I
1:41:02was in country for 3 weeks. I didn't
1:41:04even know which way I was freaking up,
1:41:05man. I was still trying to figure out
1:41:06and partying the whole time.
1:41:08>> I showed up and here's your Ninja Turtle
1:41:11costume. You're going to be
1:41:12Michelangelo. And I was like, I love
1:41:13Michelangelo.
1:41:15[laughter]
1:41:15>> Kabanga. And it was just like, welcome.
1:41:19this is what this trip's vespers and
1:41:20cocktail hours and do to-dos and like
1:41:23all these things and I was okay I can I
1:41:25can do that. Um just belligerent though
1:41:28and blackout getting blackout drunk and
1:41:31it just very lawless too and in that
1:41:35environment of like this false sense of
1:41:37uh security and freedom to maneuver uh
1:41:41in the city of Bamako Mali and um
1:41:44ignorance is not ignorance is bliss
1:41:46until it isn't. And um when that call
1:41:49happened I was like this is why I'm
1:41:51here. So there was no like it was easy
1:41:53for me to like grab my stuff because it
1:41:55was already packed. I was like, "Let's
1:41:56go. I want you to get me out of here. I
1:41:58want to go be with my team."
1:42:00>> And our stuff's always packed. Like
1:42:02regardless of the mission, like our
1:42:04stuff's always packed. So everything
1:42:05that that unit had done or and uh the
1:42:09infantry and seven special forces group
1:42:11and the special forces training and and
1:42:13the missions I did with them,
1:42:14>> everything prepared me to to become to
1:42:18be the protector to to move to the
1:42:20sounds of gunfire to not ask for
1:42:21permission.
1:42:23I didn't ask a single person if I could
1:42:25go in that hotel. Did I think I had the
1:42:27authority to
1:42:29care. I was in the right place at the
1:42:31right time. And I knew that my unit
1:42:33would back me.
1:42:34>> There wasn't a doubt in my mind. Not
1:42:37even a split second of doubt. I didn't
1:42:40have to ask them. I just moved. There
1:42:43was no time. It was inherently
1:42:46timesensitive.
1:42:47>> Yeah.
1:42:48>> And that's what the unit does and Seal
1:42:51Team Six does. And and that's what uh
1:42:54that's why that organization exists
1:42:57or those organizations exist. And we we
1:43:00kind of lose sight of that sometimes,
1:43:01but we're reminded of it a lot of times,
1:43:03too. Um
1:43:05but I went into this with this. That's a
1:43:07host rescue, man. Um let me paint the
1:43:10picture. Boom. Got my first point. Uh
1:43:12that's my start point. Got a number for
1:43:14American
1:43:15American in a room on fire. Like let's
1:43:18go. uh to safeguard an innocent life and
1:43:21could care less where the shooters were.
1:43:24Um little different than as I've learned
1:43:27an appropriate active threat response,
1:43:29you know, direct to the threat.
1:43:31>> But I applied what I knew up to that
1:43:33point.
1:43:34>> Yeah.
1:43:34>> And I was like, well, speed, surprise,
1:43:36amounts of action, surprise being the
1:43:38most important. They they they have the
1:43:40upper hand. They have the high ground.
1:43:41They have momentum. Time. I need to
1:43:43reduce the amount of time, but I also
1:43:46don't know where they are. this is a
1:43:48very confusing hotel.
1:43:50Um, and so I used the side entrance and
1:43:53started clearing. Realized that, man,
1:43:54this sucks. This sucks. I love CQB, man.
1:43:58Operationally training for it. I love
1:43:59it.
1:44:00>> Not by your onesies.
1:44:01>> No, but but I wasn't by myself. So
1:44:02that's the thing is I I want people to
1:44:04be very clear. I said this on Mike's
1:44:06show, too.
1:44:07>> I in my positions past had formed a
1:44:10relationship with warriors in that in
1:44:12that country because we have to. It's
1:44:14about survival. Yeah. We we break bread
1:44:16together, do a lot of drinking together,
1:44:19and occasionally train together. So, one
1:44:21of the things the first couple weeks I
1:44:23was like, "Hey guys, there's a range
1:44:24that we I got all kinds of ammo. Y'all
1:44:25want to go shoot?" So, just starting to
1:44:27build rapport again with those guys. And
1:44:29there was two Mars guys in the country
1:44:31doing a different mission. Um, and not a
1:44:35kinetic thing, more of like a
1:44:37information thing. and and then the the
1:44:39regional security officers, the state
1:44:41department's law enforcement. Um they're
1:44:43the ones that, you know, should have the
1:44:45ins and outs of any any hotels that we
1:44:47put TDY personnel into, you know, um
1:44:51>> as a part of the US embassy mission. But
1:44:54um it was easy rally on me. I was the
1:44:58closest to the hotel. They rallied on
1:45:00me. I'm going to check on the my next
1:45:02door neighbor. And that's where I got my
1:45:04first start point. They're gathering.
1:45:06Those other guys are gathering
1:45:07information because of their they're in
1:45:09country for a lot longer than me.
1:45:10>> Mhm.
1:45:11>> I mean, the State Department guys live
1:45:12there for years. The the Mars dudes
1:45:16rotate in there every year for six
1:45:18months at a time. So, they have built a
1:45:20ton of rapport based on their mission,
1:45:23but we'd never worked together in CQB
1:45:25and none of that. And I was just like,
1:45:27force multiply. That's what build a team
1:45:30on the fly. And I think doing those
1:45:31small unit exchanges, I tell this to law
1:45:33enforcement. I'm like, a true tactician
1:45:35for one, lets the the situation,
1:45:37mission, environment tell them the tact
1:45:39technique to use as the situation's
1:45:40evolving. Um, you won't see it if you're
1:45:44if you're so focused on here. Um, but
1:45:49the
1:45:51the force multiplication, being a
1:45:53special forces guy, training partner
1:45:54forces and all the small unit exchanges
1:45:56I've done with the other tier one units
1:45:58across the world
1:46:00>> in in the unit like all those things
1:46:02were preparing me for this moment. And
1:46:05>> how long would you say from when the
1:46:07event kicked off to when you made entry?
1:46:09How much time?
1:46:10>> 45 minutes.
1:46:11>> Okay.
1:46:11>> And it's probably 3/4 of a mile uh from
1:46:14where I lived. So, and that's the part
1:46:18that ate me up, man. Like, I felt like I
1:46:19could have got in a little sooner and I
1:46:22could have saved one more person, but
1:46:25you know, I let that um I let a lot of
1:46:28things
1:46:31I didn't let anything
1:46:33consume me. It did consume me. Like, I
1:46:37didn't get a chance to prepare my mind,
1:46:39body, and spirit for for the mission for
1:46:42violence. I'm a very violent person or
1:46:45can be. It's controlled now. Think of
1:46:48meekness as uh is harnessed power.
1:46:50That's what Christ was and that's what I
1:46:51want to be. And it's it's power under
1:46:53control. I'm capable of extreme
1:46:55violence. I choose peace. And the only
1:46:58way I say that is if I keep sharpening
1:46:59those skills like we talked with
1:47:01jiu-jitsu, like getting back into that
1:47:02and and something I could do with my
1:47:04daughter and all these things. Like
1:47:05>> the shooting piece. I have not let the
1:47:07gas off. I'm a better shooter now than
1:47:09I've ever been. And that's huge because
1:47:12I have to pay for every round I shoot.
1:47:13Yeah.
1:47:14>> Like it's it is it is expensive, but
1:47:16it's worth it because
1:47:17>> it's a different line item
1:47:19>> and it's I'm not doing it to show off.
1:47:20>> Yeah.
1:47:21>> I'm doing it to be a consmate
1:47:22professional. All those things, the
1:47:24ethos, the the the pursuit of excellence
1:47:26that I was that was ingrained in me
1:47:27through those cultures or those
1:47:29environments specifically at the unit is
1:47:31what I'm trying to do and and what I'm
1:47:33doing um with my with Blue Bearing with
1:47:36the training stuff. But I did not get a
1:47:38chance to, and this is why like people
1:47:40don't understand, and you talk about
1:47:41this in the book, but like the
1:47:43excruciating level of detail of planning
1:47:45that we do or that my former unit I was
1:47:47in did was earthshattering. SF
1:47:51absolutely military decision-making
1:47:52process. The MDMP process, it's awesome.
1:47:55>> Like the the the uh ODA, how it's
1:47:58constructed is just such a capable force
1:48:00multiplying force that you could put
1:48:02down anywhere. But then the unit is just
1:48:04like the excruciating level of details
1:48:08and planning and contingency plans and
1:48:10rehearsals is was mind-blowing to me.
1:48:12>> Plus the staff to support all that too.
1:48:14>> Yeah. And then you got people out there
1:48:15building freaking mock-ups and and
1:48:17you're waiting and not waiting when you
1:48:20get to that point of rehearsals. It's
1:48:21already built.
1:48:22>> Yeah.
1:48:22>> And it's not like, oh, look at us. We're
1:48:24we're pampered. No, we are good stewards
1:48:26of every resource that this government
1:48:28gives us or my former self. And that's
1:48:31what people don't understand. We pick up
1:48:33every round we shoot, every brass casing
1:48:34we pick up. Like it's a lot, but we're
1:48:38good stewards of it, man. And resourced
1:48:41appropriately.
1:48:43But in this case, like I did not get to
1:48:45plan for this. I did not get to practice
1:48:48any contingencies, rehearsals with my ad
1:48:50hoc team. It's building a team on the
1:48:53fly and reacting. And that's what it
1:48:55was. reacting and trying to take back
1:48:57control of what I could but with my
1:48:59presence and being hard staying hard to
1:49:02kill. Like I can't save anybody from
1:49:05this threshold, man. I got to get in the
1:49:06room.
1:49:07>> Yeah.
1:49:08>> And I also got to breach the door and I
1:49:10got to be the point man and I, you know,
1:49:13not all the time. My point is that have
1:49:15never trained with those guys, it was
1:49:17very
1:49:19um
1:49:20>> pickup basketball.
1:49:21>> Yeah, exactly. Awesome dudes. Love those
1:49:24guys. and and I I could not have been we
1:49:27couldn't have done what what we did had
1:49:29had we all not been the right people,
1:49:32but it was not a solo op. What what's
1:49:34being misconstrued across the world is
1:49:36that this was a solo hostage rescue and
1:49:39I was deployed by myself and that really
1:49:42comes into play after
1:49:44cuz I suffered in silence by myself and
1:49:50it uh
1:49:52you know the actions on longest day of
1:49:56my life saw things that I hadn't I don't
1:49:58know I didn't know why they impacted me
1:50:01but dressed like you or death.
1:50:05It was It was new. I hadn't experienced
1:50:07that that those environments. There's
1:50:09kind of a ritual
1:50:11even like you're talking about at those
1:50:13at those units. I always used to put my
1:50:15gear on the same way and in the same
1:50:17order and I would take it off the same
1:50:19way.
1:50:20>> It was a process
1:50:21>> and and and care for my gear.
1:50:22>> I load my gun the same exact way.
1:50:24>> Exactly. And magazines are always I know
1:50:26every ounce of my gear and I and it
1:50:29>> it helped me I guess if it you know
1:50:32using the analogy of packing a parachute
1:50:33it helps you pack your mind.
1:50:34>> Y
1:50:35>> yeah I that would be
1:50:36>> it's a process of visualization that
1:50:38you're as you're as you now you're doing
1:50:39it.
1:50:40>> I've never been expos what you're
1:50:41talking what you're talking about
1:50:45>> that is fascinating.
1:50:46>> Think about the unknown floor plan even
1:50:47that
1:50:48>> you want to get me excited.
1:50:49>> Yeah. Give me uh a team of of us and
1:50:53give us a target that's set up. Role
1:50:54players or paper, I don't care. Yeah.
1:50:56>> Unknown floor plan. No intel other than
1:50:59the mission. The why why are we going
1:51:01into this building and structure has to
1:51:02be answered.
1:51:03>> Yeah.
1:51:04>> And then we can adjust our tactics
1:51:05appropriately,
1:51:06>> but we just we we we we pivot based on
1:51:10simplifying the chaos because of the the
1:51:12fight, flight or freeze response that to
1:51:14survive works the backb brain. The
1:51:16backbrain shuts down the front. And this
1:51:19is me like primitively talking about it.
1:51:22But to do one of those three things,
1:51:24that's why little things become harder.
1:51:26That's why you get tunnel visioned.
1:51:28That's why you can't hear. You can't
1:51:30speak the way you normally do.
1:51:32>> You get um uh clumsy.
1:51:35You don't see things the way that they
1:51:37could be seen. But what happens through
1:51:41through experience, through exposure,
1:51:43through through good training and
1:51:45operational challenges,
1:51:48it becomes a problem solving. The back
1:51:50of the brain does no longer shuts down
1:51:51the front. Everything slows down and you
1:51:54start to be like problem solving.
1:51:56>> You're puzzle master
1:51:56>> and people are like, "How do you see so
1:51:58much?" I'm like, "Because I know what to
1:51:59look for. I know how to safeguard my
1:52:01bandwidth in this space. I'm not looking
1:52:03at people's eyes."
1:52:04>> No, you're the
1:52:04>> Because they're super deceiving.
1:52:05>> And you're the puzzle master.
1:52:06>> I'm looking at yours right now and I'm
1:52:07like,
1:52:08>> "What is he looking at?" No.
1:52:09>> Never once.
1:52:10>> So something at the ends of your hands
1:52:11can kill you right away.
1:52:12>> I was going to say I've never once
1:52:13looked at a target's eyes.
1:52:14>> No. And
1:52:16>> still to this day, I catch myself.
1:52:18>> It's hands first on any unknown area,
1:52:20madam. Always it's always hands.
1:52:22>> I tell people two things in in a course
1:52:24with us. Like
1:52:25>> any in any three-day experience with us,
1:52:27man. Like we want you to walk away every
1:52:28day with a tangible thing to take away
1:52:31and we write it down.
1:52:32>> We don't leave until we capture that
1:52:33thing. We help you get to that thing.
1:52:35But from that day, so by the end of the
1:52:37training, three days is where our course
1:52:38is. You have three things and probably a
1:52:42few more, but written and we compile all
1:52:45this with instructor feedback, your
1:52:46scores on certain scorable events, and
1:52:49then we send it to you. And um because
1:52:54there's so many things that that you can
1:52:56work on, but you don't know if you don't
1:52:58know where to start. Like we just try to
1:53:00simplify the common the common threads
1:53:03talking about what unites us versus
1:53:04divides us. I'm not spending time
1:53:06talking about why don't you pan or pie
1:53:08across this door or that. And it's like
1:53:10what's the reason I'm going in here?
1:53:12I've already answered. You're here for a
1:53:14reason to safeguard an innocent life. Do
1:53:15you think you can do that from inside
1:53:16the room or outside?
1:53:19>> Maybe.
1:53:19>> Yeah. But but the party life scale in
1:53:22this in an active attack is innocent
1:53:24civilians number one, first responders
1:53:27number two, and then offenders,
1:53:29attackers.
1:53:30>> So in that situation, the answer to the
1:53:32question is yes. Like the prior life
1:53:34scale is intact.
1:53:36Their lives are more important than
1:53:38yours.
1:53:39>> And that's why in a hostky situation,
1:53:41you're dynamic and you're going in.
1:53:42>> Yeah. Well, and the whole dynamic versus
1:53:44deliberate thing, it it bothers me
1:53:47because people like they've now and that
1:53:50not and this is something that I was
1:53:51taught too. It's not like I've just in
1:53:53reflection I've been like, man, all CQB
1:53:55is dynamic. It's just how dynamic
1:53:58>> is the environment.
1:53:58>> You do the same [ __ ] just
1:54:00>> it's all deliberate if you're being
1:54:02honest with yourself because deliberate
1:54:03doesn't mean slow. Deliberate means
1:54:04intentional. It means predictable. It
1:54:07means in control of the throttle.
1:54:08>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's it's
1:54:09the same stuff applied generally faster.
1:54:11>> Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And because
1:54:13because in lie of of of uh cover or even
1:54:18concealment of these drywall walls that
1:54:19we're hiding behind doing all these
1:54:20things, the enemy doesn't have to
1:54:22discriminate. They can shoot through
1:54:23those. And maybe you just haven't been
1:54:25challenged yet. And you're like, "We
1:54:27have to do this." When when someone
1:54:28tells me, a tactical team tells me, "We
1:54:31have to do this a certain way." I'm
1:54:32like, "Guys,
1:54:34you don't have to do anything. What's
1:54:36the mission?" That's what you ha what's
1:54:38the no fail mission? And what's
1:54:40happening across our country is that you
1:54:42have SWAT teams and this is this is a a
1:54:45broad a broad statement
1:54:47that are being challenged in their
1:54:49operational environments with
1:54:50high-risisk search warrants and arrest
1:54:52warrants and then occasional, you know,
1:54:55domestic that turns into a hostage uh
1:54:58situation that negotiations fail. They
1:55:00do a crisis entry, but they don't train.
1:55:02They don't train to the no- fail
1:55:03mission.
1:55:05They train to the operational mission
1:55:08because they're more operational than
1:55:09they are training. Whereas we where we
1:55:11worked, we were more training than
1:55:12operational.
1:55:12>> For sure.
1:55:13>> Like if you look at the bigger numbers,
1:55:16like we trained way more than we did
1:55:18operations versus
1:55:19>> order of magnitude. Orders of magnitude.
1:55:21>> Yeah. And it it's and this isn't me
1:55:23being like, oh, law enforcement, what's
1:55:24wrong with you? No, I'm here to help.
1:55:27Um, but the two things that you can do,
1:55:29law enforcement, private citizen, to
1:55:32take ownership of our environments
1:55:33everywhere we go, like you mentioned, as
1:55:35you walk around, look at hands, make a
1:55:38game out of it. Just don't bring your
1:55:40hands up because then it becomes like a
1:55:42what are you doing? You might get
1:55:43arrested. So, and read doors, man.
1:55:46That's the biggest thing is like be a
1:55:47gentleman. The breacher is a gentleman.
1:55:50That's why the breacher goes in last
1:55:51unless there's a half arms distance gap
1:55:53because you got to progressively breach
1:55:55one hand to two to kick to tools to
1:55:57shotguns to explosives, all the things,
1:55:58whatever resources you have. But my
1:56:00point is is that it's not an absolute.
1:56:02It's a rule of thumb, but be a
1:56:04gentleman. Open the door for your wife.
1:56:05Pull and hold stack left. She never digs
1:56:07her corner though. And you're like,
1:56:08"Dang,
1:56:09>> she really doesn't.
1:56:09>> Dang it."
1:56:10>> She just she just [laughter] walks into
1:56:11the center of the room.
1:56:12>> Yeah.
1:56:13>> With no regard. Like she's not checking
1:56:15any [ __ ] angles.
1:56:17>> Yeah.
1:56:18>> Actually, she's not. She, not to get off
1:56:21track, my wife is hilarious. If an
1:56:23intelligence agency were to view her
1:56:26specifically on her drive home, they
1:56:28would think she is a highly trained
1:56:30intelligence asset cuz she finds
1:56:32>> all the all the
1:56:33>> Yeah. She takes a [ __ ] SDR every day
1:56:36on the way home and she doesn't mean to.
1:56:38>> She's like,
1:56:39>> that [laughter] is exact. So, we have
1:56:40live 360 and I'll be looking I'm like
1:56:42and I'll call her, why are you over
1:56:45there? Oh, I missed the turn. So, now
1:56:47I'm just kind of going where the road
1:56:48leads. Yeah.
1:56:49>> If if in an agency they'd be like son of
1:56:51a [ __ ]
1:56:52>> Yeah.
1:56:52>> We have found the most trained app.
1:56:54Never once has she gone home. [laughter]
1:56:56>> We haven't moved by the way. And she's
1:56:58just I'm like whatever. Yeah. Every time
1:57:01open the door for her doesn't clear a
1:57:03single corner for me.
1:57:04>> But like reading doors man it's it's
1:57:05such an if you want to increase your
1:57:07ability to process a tactical a close
1:57:10quarters battle environment. Remember
1:57:11there's a battle it's a battle for
1:57:12morality. So understand it's either a
1:57:15corner fed entry or or a center fed. How
1:57:17do we determine those? There's a
1:57:19humansized void to one side beyond that
1:57:20threshold, corner fed. If there's a
1:57:22humansized void to both sides beyond
1:57:24that threshold, centerfed.
1:57:26>> Why does that matter? For strong wall
1:57:28teams, it doesn't. But ask a strong wall
1:57:29team how they strongwall a corner fed
1:57:31room. And I haven't seen it done yet.
1:57:33>> Yeah.
1:57:33>> So they do points of domination. They
1:57:35just don't want to say it. They just
1:57:37don't go all the way to the corners. And
1:57:38and what we teach is
1:57:40>> you don't have to. The the room once you
1:57:42open the door, you're processing the
1:57:44same things. whether you take and make
1:57:46the L. Making an L is important. Yeah.
1:57:48If there's dead space in the room, which
1:57:50is a void, a humansized void in depth of
1:57:52the room, the center of the room.
1:57:55>> I just try to simplify and I don't speak
1:57:57from this like why is this so hard? It's
1:57:59just like my job is to simplify these
1:58:01environments because because the the
1:58:04enemy, the unknown floor plans like and
1:58:06and then the the ability to train
1:58:10everywhere you go instead of being like,
1:58:11well, we don't get the resources, man.
1:58:13Read doors. Yeah,
1:58:15>> like you're on a patrol uh partners
1:58:17partner zones like you get to do a
1:58:19building search. They get access to
1:58:20places that none of us do
1:58:21>> all the time.
1:58:22>> All the time. And when safe and when
1:58:24appropriate, it takes one to set a
1:58:26precedence from within. Let's let's
1:58:27clear this building. Now, again, after
1:58:29we've uh uh did this building search
1:58:32safely, because it could just be a
1:58:33building search that turns into a close
1:58:35quarters battle uh morality. Remember,
1:58:37there's there's something in there,
1:58:38someone something that um doesn't want
1:58:41us there, but we want to be there. So,
1:58:44we got to take it, you know, when when
1:58:45it transitions to CQB. I I just try to
1:58:48simplify it as much as I can, but
1:58:50reading doors is so is such a a useful
1:58:52tool. Um, you know, what am I looking at
1:58:56hinges? Is it recess knob? Why why am I
1:58:59looking at those? Is it a pull or push?
1:59:01Which way does it go, you know, towards
1:59:02me or away from me? How do I set up?
1:59:04>> Spoiler people, if you can see the
1:59:06hinges, it comes towards you.
1:59:08But [laughter] not to be confused with
1:59:09like al coes you see that in schools a
1:59:11lot where even though it's recessed
1:59:13>> it's what I mean by recessed is the
1:59:15casing the threshold like it's not flush
1:59:17with the wall that it's put in on
1:59:19>> and that you know that helps you
1:59:22increase your ability your people talk
1:59:24about CQB IQ and the art side of it and
1:59:26all that is problem solving but the IQ
1:59:28piece I think comes from knowing what to
1:59:30look for because that's now because all
1:59:32these other weapons handling skills all
1:59:34the stuff that we do on the range has to
1:59:36be done at Nauseium. him. So everything
1:59:38else cuz guys don't get to do live fire
1:59:40CQB. I did that every day.
1:59:42>> Yeah.
1:59:43>> On the range and in the house,
1:59:44everything. We'd use sims for force on
1:59:47force to pressure test, you know, larger
1:59:49scale things, but that that's okay.
1:59:52That's a I don't get to do that anymore.
1:59:54And so how do we maximize the the
1:59:57training environments that we have? And
1:59:59it's um it's knowing
2:00:02what to look for or how to free your
2:00:04bandwidth up so things are running in
2:00:06the background.
2:00:07>> Yeah. subconsciously thing through touch
2:00:09things happen they're not supposed to I
2:00:10give it what it needs people they give
2:00:12me feedback I give them input based on
2:00:14the appropriate feedback that I desire
2:00:16you know and same
2:00:18>> trying to reduce the number of surprises
2:00:19that you present yourself with no I
2:00:20totally get what you're saying
2:00:21>> that's why our motto at our company is
2:00:23prepare for the known and react to the
2:00:25unknown
2:00:26>> because the known that I have I have to
2:00:28continue to prepare for because just
2:00:30because I used to be this doesn't mean
2:00:32I'm good at it anymore doesn't mean
2:00:34they're still a known to me so I can
2:00:36never get complaint decent with those
2:00:37things that are good for me in my life.
2:00:39And we could use shooting, moving,
2:00:40communicating as an example. But it's
2:00:42just anything good for me in my life, I
2:00:43have to practice.
2:00:45And then if I'm willing to share them
2:00:47with you, they can become a known for
2:00:48you if you find it helpful for you in
2:00:50your life. And vice versa. So we can
2:00:52prepare for more knowns. And then
2:00:53reacting to the unknown. What is the
2:00:55unknown? Control.
2:00:58Unknown is fear.
2:01:00It's it's the uncertainty of what's
2:01:03through that doorway. It's it's a it's
2:01:04the the car accident that you're trying
2:01:06to avoid.
2:01:07>> Yeah.
2:01:07>> It's the miscarriage that you're dealing
2:01:09with uh in your relationship. You didn't
2:01:12expect it, but you're in it. So, you
2:01:15have to react with what you have, and
2:01:17that's the known. And that's that's our
2:01:19motto at Blue Bearing. So, um what about
2:01:23the Rison caused you to suffer? You said
2:01:25you suffered in silence. What was it
2:01:27about that
2:01:28>> there? So there's a for one
2:01:36overexposed
2:01:38from a physical, mental, and and
2:01:40spiritual. They if they I wasn't a
2:01:43follower of Christ back then, but but if
2:01:45you couldn't recite the Quran, they were
2:01:47executing people. And I found that out
2:01:48later, but it just
2:01:50>> Oh, in the hotel.
2:01:50>> In the hotel. Yeah. And I told you the
2:01:53way that the people were dressed just
2:01:55something was not like it didn't stop me
2:01:57but it was like could not compute you
2:02:00know and
2:02:01>> you know some of the the overwhelming
2:02:03environment that I didn't have the troop
2:02:06the squadron to overwhelm and it becomes
2:02:08this like
2:02:10problem to solve. It was a problem to
2:02:12solve. No, no doubt. But I was
2:02:13overwhelmed and I never stopped. And and
2:02:16then you couple the um
2:02:20uh the over pressure, the blast. I got
2:02:23shot from 5t away in a stairwell. That's
2:02:25what this scene is. And the only thing
2:02:27that saved my life is uh the first round
2:02:29was meant for my face cuz I'm looking
2:02:31down a muzzle. It was very weird to look
2:02:32down the muzzle from that close. And um
2:02:35>> how did you find yourself staring down
2:02:36the muzzle?
2:02:37>> Running up the stairs and they were
2:02:38coming down. Our paths just cross based
2:02:40on I was looking for the highest floor
2:02:42that I had Americans. Yeah.
2:02:43>> Um that I had gotten information on
2:02:45their room numbers.
2:02:46>> So poor time meeting in a stairwell.
2:02:48>> Yeah. They got the high ground and I'm
2:02:50running up and stairwells are so if it's
2:02:53not a corner fed, if it's not a center
2:02:54fed, it's a it's either a hallway or a
2:02:56stairwell.
2:02:57>> So you still take it like room till it
2:02:58shows you it's not.
2:02:59>> And and with practice as a collective
2:03:02like it becomes a little bit safer.
2:03:04>> Oh yeah. But but it's the most dangerous
2:03:06linear danger area and then you add the
2:03:08depth, the height, the elevation.
2:03:10>> Um fighting uphill sucks. It always has.
2:03:13>> And um you know, they got the drop on me
2:03:17uh you know, trying to turn and do that
2:03:18pivot to clear the landing above me like
2:03:20I've done so many times.
2:03:22>> But as I'm stepping across from the
2:03:25outside to the inside track, like I'm
2:03:26turning and I see these guys and I look
2:03:29and that's when I'm that's when that
2:03:31first round I look down the muzzle and
2:03:33he cracks that thing off. And now I'm
2:03:35blacked out, like smacked up against the
2:03:38wall and I'm but I'm shooting because I
2:03:40come right back to and I'm engaging
2:03:42rounds that are missing. And I didn't
2:03:45talk about that for a long time.
2:03:46>> So the conc was it the concussive blast
2:03:49that you
2:03:50>> Yeah.
2:03:50>> What was it? A AK
2:03:51>> AK shorty.
2:03:53>> Oh yeah. Cuz I was pushing some gas out
2:03:54there.
2:03:54>> Yeah. And it was pretty close, man. like
2:03:56just relative, you know, through,
2:03:59you know, lateral separation and
2:04:01vertical, but like um really close. And
2:04:05I only know that that first round cuz I
2:04:07I couldn't make sense of why that didn't
2:04:09kill me.
2:04:11Um I didn't stop fighting
2:04:13>> and but I missed several rounds and that
2:04:18I don't miss. Like that's the part where
2:04:21it's like you should be you should be
2:04:23ashamed of yourself.
2:04:23>> I know. I know we joke around about it,
2:04:25but it's like
2:04:27>> but it's like if I can't account for a
2:04:28shot, I don't need to do this job.
2:04:31>> Like everything
2:04:33to not take the shot.
2:04:34>> Sure.
2:04:34>> That's one way to look at it. Another
2:04:36way to look at it is a guy was had an AK
2:04:39shoved in your face and you were doing
2:04:40the best that you could
2:04:41>> and I was and there's there's there is
2:04:43grace for this and I I but suffering in
2:04:46silence. I didn't want to share that
2:04:47with anybody.
2:04:48>> Let's thought they would look at me
2:04:50differently.
2:04:50>> But let's be clear though, too. I don't
2:04:52know all of the training evolutions
2:04:54you've ever done in your life, but I bet
2:04:56you never put a buddy up on a stairwell
2:04:57and said, "Hey, with this live AK, as I
2:05:01clear this, I need you to crack a round
2:05:02off right in my face."
2:05:04>> Yeah.
2:05:04>> So, you train to the limit that you can
2:05:07inside of a safe parameter.
2:05:08>> Yeah.
2:05:09>> It's not going to prepare you for every
2:05:12single situation.
2:05:13>> No, I I agree. I I
2:05:14>> I understand why you wouldn't want to
2:05:16talk about it, though.
2:05:16>> But I was middle management at this
2:05:18point. I was a 3IIC and just like
2:05:20earning my stripes, man. Feeling good
2:05:22about what I'm, you know, how my my
2:05:24addition to this the the the most
2:05:27capable fighting force on the planet.
2:05:28And and I'm by myself, you know, and
2:05:31>> where did the round impact?
2:05:33>> Behind me like
2:05:36it wasn't just one. It was like five or
2:05:37six rounds after. So that first one I I
2:05:40know that was like for my face cuz I
2:05:42went back there with the FBI, put a suit
2:05:44back on. I'm with them and and I went
2:05:47back there for days on end
2:05:49>> and and I said it was for my own story
2:05:52boards and all that to ARS and part of
2:05:54it was but it was to um try to make
2:05:57sense of everything
2:05:59>> why I was still here
2:06:00>> and that I have a photo that I've shared
2:06:04on Sean show and that reeling that's the
2:06:07a photo I took from my perspective and
2:06:09from the shooters perspective and that's
2:06:12the only thing that makes sense from a
2:06:13science perspective And but think Pulp
2:06:16Fiction like Samuel comes out.
2:06:18>> I actually was thinking of that as you
2:06:19were telling
2:06:19>> every other round after that I was just
2:06:21like pow and it's this concrete
2:06:22stairwell fire you know fire evacuation
2:06:25stairwell and it's just they're just
2:06:27popping all around me and then you know
2:06:30I'm also stumbling while I'm now
2:06:31returning fire and then I I just saw
2:06:35red. I went now I'm down on the landing
2:06:37and I yell at this at these guys like
2:06:40scream. I used to cuss a lot. I don't
2:06:42cuss anymore and that's been very
2:06:43intentional but
2:06:45>> for me and um it changes the way I
2:06:48interact with myself and others and I
2:06:49don't get as angry and all these. It's
2:06:51been such a a beneficial thing in my
2:06:53life but
2:06:55>> I screamed some obscinities at these
2:06:57guys and went running back up because I
2:07:00was going to try to use speed to get to
2:07:02to gain some momentum based on the the
2:07:04engagement that just happened both ways.
2:07:07And as I'm doing that I hear the primer
2:07:09pop. I hear Allah Akbar on the Russian
2:07:11style grenade and it's very audible you
2:07:13know and I knew it's on a delay anywhere
2:07:16from two to three se three and a
2:07:18whatever it is three and a half seconds
2:07:19>> I think it's two to five is the window
2:07:21>> yeah for those yeah [laughter] depending
2:07:23is it Chinese is it which style
2:07:25>> what year was this pretty what vintage
2:07:28>> but it is a it was a very familiar feel
2:07:31uh hear audible sound
2:07:33>> and that that alkbar
2:07:37>> yeah that only sounds in one
2:07:39And uh
2:07:42I jumped down the stairs the the next to
2:07:44the next landing. I dove over the
2:07:46railing and to to get out of the frag
2:07:50zone and I just ate the over pressure in
2:07:53that stairwell, but it none of the frag
2:07:55hit me. And
2:08:00I uh at that point, man, I was like,
2:08:02"Dude,
2:08:04I need help." like this. This is
2:08:06something I can't I got to find a way to
2:08:09come around from the top.
2:08:11>> Uh I got to lock them down from right
2:08:13here while we do this. I need as many
2:08:15people as we can at that point. This is
2:08:18pretty early. Um after I got the first
2:08:21person out uh of that room on fire, got
2:08:24him to safety. Almost died doing that.
2:08:26And that was a big thing I took back and
2:08:28like training in a fire rescue
2:08:30environment like with the best in the
2:08:32country, the FDNY rescue guys. Oh, you
2:08:34took them from smoke inhilation
2:08:36>> like learning how to uh work in and
2:08:38around a fire environment to rescue and
2:08:40manipulating the fire um you know to to
2:08:43create windows for rescue did
2:08:45>> and I didn't have that training but but
2:08:47I took that back and
2:08:49>> and not just me but like Pat Payne the
2:08:51op he was on he also came back and was
2:08:53uh you know that was a big proponent to
2:08:55to bringing those guys in and training
2:08:57with them
2:08:58>> the early on
2:09:01zero rounds fired on this where I was
2:09:03there for the initial invasion of Iraq
2:09:05and it was like the third place we went
2:09:07when we got into Baghdad and the
2:09:09building started on fire.
2:09:11>> Yeah.
2:09:13>> We continued clearing up to the second
2:09:16deck. I don't know
2:09:18>> that's a floor for everybody else.
2:09:20>> Second floor deck, whatever.
2:09:21>> I don't know how we got down off of
2:09:24that. I have never seen visibility
2:09:26disappear.
2:09:27>> By the time we got to the first floor, I
2:09:30could barely breathe. And I'm not alone
2:09:32in saying this. Yeah,
2:09:34>> we're like everybody's rushing out. Get
2:09:36a headcount. I don't even know what the
2:09:38hell we would have done
2:09:39>> had
2:09:40>> went any further.
2:09:41>> Well, if we had been miss like if we had
2:09:43had somebody missing in there. I mean,
2:09:44obviously, we would have done everything
2:09:45we could have.
2:09:46>> Zero times did I ever put that or was
2:09:49involved in a training scenario where
2:09:50that was the case. You want to talk I
2:09:52couldn't.
2:09:53>> It was unbelievable. And the velocity
2:09:55that the visibility disappeared and the
2:09:57I'm talking the darkest blackest smoke
2:09:59just
2:10:00>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:10:00>> So I know exactly what you're talking
2:10:01about. Obviously completely different
2:10:02situation but yeah I and actually even
2:10:05after that of course that was never
2:10:07introduced into any training scenarios
2:10:09but what a problem.
2:10:11>> Yeah. But it makes you it made me
2:10:13appreciate the the fire guys across this
2:10:16country like they go into these sit. So
2:10:18we we did the whole workups of like
2:10:20ladder and hose team man full-blown
2:10:22everything SCBA the full gamut
2:10:26>> and then they started taking things away
2:10:27from us
2:10:28>> and now it's like to to learn how to
2:10:30operate with what we normally would have
2:10:32not that we don't have um you know SCBAs
2:10:34and stuff but it's like
2:10:36>> if what good is a tool if it's not there
2:10:37when you need it.
2:10:38>> Yeah. You got what you got and
2:10:42>> you learn you learn you through proper
2:10:44training like and they've really refined
2:10:47this through their operational uh
2:10:50experiences of of
2:10:51>> of trying to save life and you end up
2:10:54making the fire worse potentially. But
2:10:57for that moment, you know, you can vent
2:10:59it to lift to get to uh and there's good
2:11:02air down there. That's that's where like
2:11:04if you ever see me with a photo, I got
2:11:05an American Eagle on my arm
2:11:07>> and I got a bunch of black soot. I'm not
2:11:09huffing paint. That's I'm sucking the
2:11:11nails out of the floorboard because
2:11:13there's good air down there. [laughter]
2:11:14They'll tell you that. Like there's good
2:11:15air down there. You're like, "Oh, some
2:11:17good some good smoke. Some good air down
2:11:19there." And
2:11:20>> just makes you appreciate like just what
2:11:22the service uh across this country looks
2:11:25like and how it isn't just us, you know?
2:11:27>> Yeah. Um, and that and that's a big part
2:11:30of why I do what I what I do now is like
2:11:32I've it's reinvigorated my sense and
2:11:35pride in this country, seeing and
2:11:37meeting some of the greatest law
2:11:38enforcement and first responders across
2:11:40this country and private citizens. Like
2:11:42we do an open enrollment version of our
2:11:44active shooter course, the the protector
2:11:46mindset. And we we tailor it to your if
2:11:49you don't have a rifle in your truck,
2:11:51some people do.
2:11:52>> Um, I'm not saying do or don't. I'm
2:11:54saying you're going to be you're going
2:11:56to train with what you actually carry.
2:11:58So if you carry in a bag, guess what?
2:12:00You're doing the whole training with
2:12:02drawing from bags.
2:12:03>> Mhm.
2:12:03>> Carrying a bag. Um and we finish with,
2:12:07you know, realistic scenarios with
2:12:09people at a real school and you're
2:12:11giving context of like you're picking
2:12:13your kid up and then there's or you get
2:12:14a call, you know, from your spouse that
2:12:16works there or something. We tailor it,
2:12:18man. It's very customuilt to the
2:12:20individual.
2:12:21>> It's good. But um where do we go from
2:12:25here?
2:12:25>> You were talking So you had you were you
2:12:27needed to figure out a way essentially
2:12:29you had come in the stairwell but then
2:12:31you had we had gone I think back in time
2:12:33a little bit to you almost got killed by
2:12:34the smoke.
2:12:35>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:12:35>> I think some of that training the most
2:12:37important part of it was well showing
2:12:39you the risk. I I didn't even think
2:12:41about it when we were running in there
2:12:42like idiots. The risk
2:12:43>> I went to go dig my corner and I'm like
2:12:46oh my god I can't breathe. I can't see.
2:12:48Now I'm on the ground now. I'm like I
2:12:50can't get any lower.
2:12:51>> Yeah. And I don't know where this dude's
2:12:53at. This American.
2:12:54>> Yeah,
2:12:54>> I know he's in here. I know that he was
2:12:57he was under one of the banquet tables
2:12:59hiding and they were shooting over top
2:13:00of him was the last information that we
2:13:02got. I didn't know where. So, um, and I
2:13:07couldn't even figure out where the front
2:13:08door I just came in was. I had only gone
2:13:10like maybe 15 feet into the room. And
2:13:13luckily, I did stay no more than arms
2:13:15distance off the wall that I came in on.
2:13:17And I was able to trace that wall back
2:13:19with a little bit of vertigo. uh or
2:13:21whatever that would be called of like
2:13:23which way's up. Yeah. Vertigo.
2:13:24>> Yeah.
2:13:25>> And I can't breathe and um if I keep
2:13:29going, I was going to die. And it was
2:13:32very clear to me in that moment. So, I I
2:13:34was able to find that wall and work my
2:13:36way back to the door and then got him on
2:13:39the phone directly because we were
2:13:40talking through the marine security
2:13:42guard uh detail the post one and he was
2:13:45cuz he was talking to them and relayed
2:13:46to us and got hit got him on the phone
2:13:49directly and was able at that point
2:13:51which I didn't know we vented it. I
2:13:53kicked the doors in it vented it and in
2:13:55you know 45 seconds to a minute like
2:13:58it's lifting a bit. So, when I went back
2:14:00in with more direction of where he was
2:14:02at, knowing that I'm coming in, um, that
2:14:05voice you hear is me, um, that white
2:14:08light, I'll be shining my white light
2:14:10really low. I'm going to move to the
2:14:11right and you know, if you can and you
2:14:14hear me or see me, come come out. Um, I
2:14:18was able to get him and man, he the will
2:14:20to survive is is is
2:14:22so powerful, man. And like he just
2:14:24looked like he was hanging on to death,
2:14:26like near death, you know, and
2:14:28>> probably because he was.
2:14:29>> Yeah.
2:14:30>> A lot of people though, even just from
2:14:31shock, like grown men. I'd kick in the
2:14:34doors and targeted room numbers of
2:14:37Americans and some I could find, some I
2:14:39couldn't. They'd already escaped or
2:14:41maybe they already were there was one
2:14:43American that was actually killed. And I
2:14:44she was killed during uh one of the
2:14:47initial volleys uh that they did. But I
2:14:51didn't leave that hotel until I
2:14:54confirmed without a doubt that she was
2:14:56one of those killed. She was the last
2:14:58person I was looking for. Anita Guitar.
2:15:00>> Mhm.
2:15:05>> I just took a lot of uh
2:15:08I tried to bear it all. You know, I
2:15:11could have did more. This is my
2:15:13responsibility. I have the ability. This
2:15:15is my responsibility. And I didn't have
2:15:17any grace. And I and the biggest thing
2:15:20that I I was missing was the hot wash my
2:15:24team.
2:15:25>> How long were you in country after that
2:15:27occurred by yourself?
2:15:29>> Just about three and a half months.
2:15:31>> Whoa.
2:15:32>> Unraveling
2:15:33>> on an island by yourself in comparison
2:15:35to being with the your unit.
2:15:37>> Yeah. I'm physically hurting, you know,
2:15:39like I after that initial engagement
2:15:42with the shooters in the stairwell, once
2:15:43I was able to get the the Malian
2:15:46security forces up there,
2:15:49>> gave them like a freaking,
2:15:51you know,
2:15:51>> knife hand. They don't speak.
2:15:52>> You gave them the knife hand.
2:15:53>> I gave them the the I gave them the
2:15:55short
2:15:57range. I didn't do the long range. I do
2:15:59the short range.
2:16:00>> You got to save the knife.
2:16:01>> Why? They they don't speak English. And
2:16:03I was like, I don't speak French, dude.
2:16:04Or whatever else. knife hand doesn't
2:16:07matter.
2:16:07>> This is your country,
2:16:09you know, and like
2:16:10>> damn, you got to use the knife hand for
2:16:12real.
2:16:13>> That's rare air.
2:16:14>> Yeah. Um but I was able to to to clear
2:16:19out the rest of that wing that um once I
2:16:22locked the the shooters into that spot,
2:16:24but I didn't know if they were able to
2:16:25escape from the top cuz they I didn't
2:16:27know how they got there. I I'd assume
2:16:29they got there coming up from that
2:16:31stairwell, but who knows? It was there
2:16:33was so many stairwells
2:16:34>> and there was parts of the the hotel
2:16:37that weren't even on the emergency exit
2:16:39plan just that had been additions. In
2:16:42this addition,
2:16:44um, our paths crossed only be because of
2:16:48God, man. Because
2:16:51I tried to move up to a stairwell that
2:16:53was so I'd use the floor the the room
2:16:55numbers. They should be matched as you
2:16:57move up the levels. is a sevenstory
2:16:59hotel.
2:17:00>> Mhm.
2:17:01>> And I was like, "All right, well,
2:17:03instead of just running up a stairwell,
2:17:04I'm going to find I'm going to take the
2:17:06path I took, you know, already as I come
2:17:08back in." But but then room numbers, I'm
2:17:12looking for rooms uh 5, 61, 62, and 63.
2:17:18That's the highest floor. Then I'm going
2:17:19to work my way down. So, I wanted to
2:17:21find the closest stairwell to those
2:17:23wings. I looked at the lower numbers,
2:17:25found that stairwell, went all the way
2:17:27up to the fifth floor, couldn't get in
2:17:30because of the crash bar being on the
2:17:31other side. Didn't have any mechanical
2:17:32breaching tools, couldn't pry that door,
2:17:34pull door,
2:17:35>> couldn't pry it open. storm a fire rated
2:17:38door, you know, and so that I went down
2:17:40a a floor to to where I could get back
2:17:43in to the the main uh part of the hotel,
2:17:46the hallway there, or one of the
2:17:47hallways. And then I worked my way down
2:17:49a wing that led to another stairwell,
2:17:52and that's where I ran into them. But
2:17:53that wing
2:17:55only went to fourth floor, which I
2:17:57didn't realize until I took a step back
2:18:00and was like, they can't they had to
2:18:01come from the bottom. They they they're
2:18:05trapped at at some point unless we can
2:18:07um unless they can get through. There
2:18:08was like apartment condos where you know
2:18:11whatever contractors were were living in
2:18:14um on that fourth floor of that part of
2:18:16the wing uh or that wing of the hotel.
2:18:19Um, but anyways, I I cleared, you know,
2:18:22I I kicked in a ton of doors, but that
2:18:25and no longer at that point. I'm like,
2:18:27let me let me cuz some one person pops
2:18:30out of the the door in that in that
2:18:32hallway and is like and I'm like, hey,
2:18:34hurry, hurry. [laughter] And I I'm like
2:18:38and I run I run. I'm like, hey, hey,
2:18:40hands, you know, yelling hands at him.
2:18:42And then they close the door on me and I
2:18:44boot that thing in and I go in and it
2:18:47was a just an innocent innocent
2:18:48bystander. Didn't speak a lick of
2:18:50English. Don't know what country they're
2:18:51from.
2:18:52>> And I was like, okay, what am I just
2:18:53going to leave them here? What do I do
2:18:54now? I have all these Malian security
2:18:56forces that have
2:18:58came in.
2:18:59>> I was like, let's get them out. And so I
2:19:01just was like, all right, I'm going to
2:19:03start stay right here because there's
2:19:05like alos. And I started clearing room
2:19:07to room to room till I gather pods of
2:19:09people and then usher them out with with
2:19:11more, you know, security forces that
2:19:13were coming in. Man, you couldn't tell
2:19:14who was who in the zoo. Like, what is
2:19:16going on? Like, who are you? Who are
2:19:17you? Everybody's got guns and AKs and
2:19:19they're on fire. And you're just like,
2:19:21what is going on? The hotel's on fire.
2:19:23Their guns are on fire. Fingers are on
2:19:25the trigger. And I was like, oh my god,
2:19:27I'm gonna get shot from one of them.
2:19:29That's when things like I actually
2:19:30became uh every time I reentered the
2:19:33hotel I was like oh god deconliction you
2:19:36know um it was a very real thing in
2:19:38active attack response it's going to
2:19:41happen it's others are coming you don't
2:19:43get to control what you're if you're off
2:19:44duty and you feel called to to respond
2:19:47like you have to increase your uh you
2:19:49know through FFI or friendly force
2:19:51identification and deconliction is is
2:19:53huge and so we hammer that in our
2:19:55courses but so I I get out. Um, and I
2:20:01pull my kid off and I had the one of the
2:20:03Mars dudes. I was like, "Hey man, got to
2:20:05be bleeding out from the inside cuz I
2:20:07feel I like just threw up." My teeth
2:20:10were just loose in my It felt so loose
2:20:12and like the taste in my mouth.
2:20:14>> This is after everything was said and
2:20:15done.
2:20:16>> No, no, this is the the this is after
2:20:17that engagement cleared that winga came
2:20:20out because I wanted to get on the
2:20:21phone.
2:20:22>> Yeah.
2:20:22>> That's that's the first time I called my
2:20:24command once I got outside. I had him I
2:20:27called my command before I had him check
2:20:28me out and said, "Hey,
2:20:30this is going on." They're like, "Rogger
2:20:32that. We know. What do you need?" I
2:20:34said, "I need my boys. I don't know if I
2:20:37can finish this."
2:20:39And they were like, "Okay." And
2:20:43so the guys back in the States are, you
2:20:45know, mustering up. But then the
2:20:47neighboring country, there's a tier one
2:20:50um French element that we worked with.
2:20:52And there was one of my old teammates
2:20:54embedded with them. and they were on
2:20:56their way. So, man, I was like, "Oh,
2:20:58dude, the end is coming." You know, and
2:21:00I didn't just want to sit like a lump on
2:21:02a log, but I was hurting physically and
2:21:06sensitive to light already cuz it's
2:21:08really dark in the inside, smoky, come
2:21:10out and I was like, I don't know if it's
2:21:11because of that transition, but also my
2:21:13head hurts. I've been bopped a lot.
2:21:16>> Uh, and I'm like there, this is this is
2:21:19bad concussion wise.
2:21:22And I had him look at me because I was
2:21:24like, I don't I feel nauseous and I
2:21:26think maybe I'm I don't know how I
2:21:28didn't get hit by frag or shot by
2:21:30bullets, you know. And um so I just had
2:21:32him do a took my shirt off. They just do
2:21:35a sweep.
2:21:35>> Like look at me. And um
2:21:39I was good. I threw my stuff back on and
2:21:41was like, "Rogger that." Went back in
2:21:44and um started moving. Went back to
2:21:48check on the the the barricade
2:21:50situation. Now, um, some other things
2:21:53had unfolded, but at the end of the day,
2:21:56they did not kill another innocent
2:21:58person once I was able to encounter them
2:22:00in the stairwell. It just didn't end
2:22:01that quickly. But fast forward, you
2:22:04know, around 12:30, so around noonish,
2:22:09um, I knew that the the French troop was
2:22:12coming in, flying in C130. And um I was
2:22:16starting to prep like let's link up out
2:22:18here and I'm going to do a mad minute
2:22:20and like let's go.
2:22:22>> They they roll up and I'm like hey hey
2:22:25hey
2:22:27uh anybody speak English and they're
2:22:30like
2:22:32[laughter]
2:22:34and I was like hey I was so grateful
2:22:37they were there man.
2:22:38>> Yeah.
2:22:38>> I was not like ah let's go. I was just
2:22:40like, "Thank you guys so much, man, but
2:22:43I got a lot of information I want to
2:22:44share." So, uh, found one that did speak
2:22:47English, but then I was like, "Have you
2:22:48seen so and so, my teammate? Is he with
2:22:50you? I heard he's going to be with you."
2:22:52And, man, when I saw him, it was like,
2:22:55"There's my boy."
2:22:56>> Yeah.
2:22:59>> How many terrorists?
2:23:01>> And I found one that spoke English, but
2:23:02>> Yeah. How many terrorists did end up
2:23:04being there? So, that's the I saw three
2:23:07at the end of it, but the report is two.
2:23:09Um, I only say three because there was
2:23:12the the the the stair uh the top of that
2:23:15staircase, the the storage closets that
2:23:17where it actually ended up like
2:23:19finishing, but then right off of that
2:23:22was another room and there was another
2:23:23guy in fatigues that that looked exactly
2:23:25like them that was dead and I have no
2:23:27idea where he would have came from.
2:23:29>> Interesting. Um, so obviously the people
2:23:32talk about the fog of war and I only
2:23:34have my perspective. So I've I've been
2:23:36very public with sharing this, not that
2:23:39it it was it wasn't solo op like it was
2:23:42like a true testament of being able to
2:23:44to to be empowered
2:23:45>> to make decisions like from the the
2:23:47experiences in the organization that I
2:23:49worked with
2:23:50>> or for and that was a big one man
2:23:53because there was the seeds of doubt
2:23:55just were getting layered in. you're
2:23:57gonna you're gonna you're you don't have
2:23:59the authorities. You guys don't this.
2:24:01And it was a lot of it was coming from
2:24:02my former job, special forces command
2:24:06and in in Germany. And I just saw it in
2:24:10the Mars dudes. I was like they were on
2:24:13the phone like every five minutes. I was
2:24:15like, "Get off the phone. Like I need
2:24:18you here, man.
2:24:19>> I need you to be present." And I
2:24:21straight up that's where the I was like
2:24:22that's a tomorrow problem because the
2:24:24the whoever up in Germany was like
2:24:26you're going to ruin our platform that
2:24:28like people are going to they're not
2:24:29used to they shouldn't see you with you
2:24:32know body armor on and rifles and
2:24:33helmets and I'm like who cares?
2:24:37>> You want to see dead bodies pulled out
2:24:38on the news.
2:24:38>> I mean that's a tomorrow problem. And
2:24:40but the thing is is like my courage and
2:24:42the courage of others is contagious. But
2:24:45the seeds of doubt
2:24:47um starts to create
2:24:50um hesitation
2:24:53here and then here like physically.
2:24:57>> Yeah.
2:24:57>> And it was that's when like I said man,
2:24:59God bless those guys, but they were not
2:25:01empowered by and that's no fault of
2:25:03their own.
2:25:04>> That's a big problem with special forces
2:25:06too in my in my opinion from my
2:25:08perspective.
2:25:10We had a CRF, a commander's reactionary
2:25:13force that sits in Germany for this very
2:25:15thing, significantly closer to the
2:25:18crisis than the United States of
2:25:20America. Still far, but but closer.
2:25:24Yeah. And it's what they're designed to
2:25:26do. And they got told to stand down. I
2:25:29had one of my old teammates up there
2:25:30doing some admin things on his rotation,
2:25:33rotating out to to exchange this or
2:25:35that. and he heard that I was in this
2:25:37was happening and that and he went
2:25:39straight to the SIF guys and was like
2:25:40let's go. So they were mustering up like
2:25:44loading up and they got told to stand
2:25:45down and I was like what? So, you know,
2:25:51had the French not been positioned cuz
2:25:53that was their af Afghanistan really
2:25:55like northern Mali, they were very
2:25:57kinetic going after all the different,
2:25:59you know, AQIM and Elmar Batun and all
2:26:02the different and eventually ISIS, but
2:26:03they,
2:26:05you know, we we advise assist them and
2:26:08we could accompany but we never did
2:26:09because of the geopolitical issues with
2:26:11the state departments uh in those
2:26:14countries. They didn't want a soft
2:26:16presence. So that's where for the
2:26:18longest time like the Africa messaging
2:26:20or the greater message was that special
2:26:23for eventually it was like Malians are
2:26:25dealing with it and then it was like
2:26:26special forces are on the assisting with
2:26:28the evacuation or and then it wasn't
2:26:32until years later that something until I
2:26:34got the distinguished service cross
2:26:35which was three years later um which I'm
2:26:38extremely honored to have. It was such a
2:26:40um
2:26:42um it's an honor. What you did is an
2:26:45amazing thing, man.
2:26:46>> Thank you.
2:26:47>> You You deserve every stretch an inch of
2:26:50that medal.
2:26:52>> I got I got to be I got to be awarded it
2:26:54with my family there and it was very it
2:26:56was it's very personal to me in a in a
2:26:58place that, you know, we're very
2:26:59secretive even with our own families.
2:27:01>> Yeah. And um
2:27:04you know, one of the things that did
2:27:05bother me about that was I had one of
2:27:07the guys that were there uh from the
2:27:10State Department that saw real time, at
2:27:12least the first few hours of the
2:27:14response, come in and kind of speak on
2:27:17my behalf. And and I don't know what it
2:27:20was, but what they shared was very
2:27:22different than how they shared it was a
2:27:25little different than what I
2:27:27experienced. And it and it seemed like
2:27:29there was a because of our inner agency,
2:27:33you know, efforts and not that that's
2:27:36not the case, but I wasn't waiting on
2:27:38anyone.
2:27:40Um, and I led and all I all I expected
2:27:44in that moment was that that one moment
2:27:46of like to speak to that to that
2:27:49confidence that through my leadership it
2:27:51it gave which they spoke to me and said
2:27:52this to me over and over and then years
2:27:56later you know things got narratives
2:27:58were written and very publicly because
2:27:59it was a massive success and it from a
2:28:02inter agency uh cooperation and and
2:28:05evacuation and response at the greater
2:28:08uh you the greater side of it. But at
2:28:11the end of the day, like the actions of
2:28:12a few is what allowed that to be
2:28:14possible [snorts] and it was just it was
2:28:16kind of off-putting. Um
2:28:18>> I get that, but it doesn't matter.
2:28:19>> But it is perspective though. Like I I
2:28:22have my perspective and I was like very
2:28:25I didn't share this story until I shared
2:28:27it with Sean.
2:28:28>> No other person's narrative, State
2:28:31Department, whoever changes the actions
2:28:33that you took then. So, I get how it
2:28:35could be off-putting,
2:28:37but
2:28:37>> but I also like
2:28:40I also that's why I've been, you know, I
2:28:42was vocal with Mike about this is like
2:28:44because people take things and and they
2:28:46have they take liberties with them
2:28:48>> and and there's so many things that say
2:28:50>> solo Delta Force operator saves 170
2:28:54people.
2:28:54>> I think what they mean is that you were
2:28:55the only not by yourself but the only
2:28:58guy from KAG that was there. I think
2:28:59that's what they mean. That's what I
2:29:01being gracious that when I read that
2:29:03that's what I what I read.
2:29:05>> Yeah.
2:29:06>> And and and I don't want to take away
2:29:08that their actions like at all, but I
2:29:10can only speak to my experiences and
2:29:11that's what I've done. And it's not to
2:29:13to to the the tomorrow problem thing,
2:29:15the empowerment thing. That was a very
2:29:17real thing that we both had to deal with
2:29:21in that moment. And I'm like as the
2:29:22leader of this ad hoc team, I'm like
2:29:25>> like look at me. I'm the captain now.
2:29:29No, it was a joke. But sorry,
2:29:32>> it's a good joke. Yeah. What are you
2:29:33talking about?
2:29:33>> Uh and
2:29:36um so it's just
2:29:39God bless those dudes, man. And I uh you
2:29:41know, sadly, and I don't know if it's
2:29:43something, this is this is going to
2:29:44unpackage a few things, but you know, I
2:29:47told you they rotate, the Mars dudes,
2:29:48they rotate into that platform because
2:29:51of the mission to build rapport,
2:29:52continue to maintain it. they have a lot
2:29:54of the same guys going in every every
2:29:56year uh or year and a half whatever the
2:29:59rotation cycle is but they're can
2:30:01they're uh you know ground knowledge
2:30:04they have the relationships and all
2:30:06those things well after that when when I
2:30:10did go back home I got really close
2:30:12through that trip with one of them
2:30:13specifically uh Mario
2:30:16and he was a warrior and is
2:30:20but he was struggling too and we were
2:30:22both struggling in our own ways. And um
2:30:27you know he was preparing to go back
2:30:29over there and I was like man and I'm on
2:30:32the phone with him talking off the ledge
2:30:34and uh I was like whatever you do man
2:30:37like just tell them that you can't like
2:30:39don't go back over there. I wouldn't
2:30:41right now. There's some more healing
2:30:43that we got to do.
2:30:45And you know I found out later that he
2:30:48did and he was
2:30:50>> Did he go back over or did it tell them
2:30:51that he
2:30:52>> No, he went back over. Okay.
2:30:53>> He went back over and he was a part of
2:30:56the
2:30:58um
2:30:59that situation where they they killed
2:31:01the special forces guy, Logan Melgar.
2:31:03Melgar
2:31:05that was in the same house that I was
2:31:07assigned to by myself. A team of guys
2:31:10lived there. Special Forces and Seal
2:31:12Team Six guys.
2:31:13>> Yeah, excuse me. But and I don't know
2:31:16those guys. All I know is that place is
2:31:19a breeding ground for
2:31:22idle hands and and bad decisions. And
2:31:26I'm not trying to take anything away
2:31:28from or justify anything that happened
2:31:30or
2:31:30>> Yeah, I'm not really familiar with the
2:31:32details of it either.
2:31:33>> Either way, like it from what I
2:31:34understand, hazing gone critically wrong
2:31:37and it almost per like it had to be
2:31:39personal.
2:31:40>> I've heard some train
2:31:42stuff. Well, I've heard some deeper,
2:31:44darker stuff aligning with the potential
2:31:47reasons or motivations behind it, but I
2:31:49have no confirmation of it. So, I'll
2:31:50just leave it at conjecture.
2:31:52>> But at the end of the day,
2:31:54>> somebody who shouldn't have lost their
2:31:55life did. Absolutely.
2:31:56>> And it's
2:31:57>> and he tragic.
2:31:58>> And Mario was one of the responders into
2:32:00the Rison Blue Hotel attack with me and
2:32:03then he went to jail.
2:32:05>> Yeah.
2:32:05>> And the award that he was given, the
2:32:07Silver Star, was taken from him and or
2:32:10was never awarded. I was going to say
2:32:12what I've never heard of that
2:32:13>> but was never awarded and I don't know
2:32:14if it's ever going to be but that that's
2:32:16the thing is that award he deserves that
2:32:18award from his actions cuz that's what
2:32:20Valor awards are for.
2:32:21>> Correct.
2:32:22>> Um and that's not me justifying
2:32:26anything that happened after that.
2:32:28>> No, there's two different situations. I
2:32:29can speak and I and I did speak and I
2:32:31wrote character and witness statements
2:32:33on behalf um from my perspective of his
2:32:36actions and you know above and beyond
2:32:39selfless uh in in a in a grand scale if
2:32:42we don't like like when I got awarded
2:32:44that I was the fourth guy in the unit to
2:32:47be awarded the distinguished service
2:32:48cross since 1978 and it's not a matter
2:32:52of like their valorous acts are there
2:32:54it's just the scrutiny of what gets put
2:32:57in yeah
2:32:58>> for one of like is extremely
2:33:03as as real as it should be, you know,
2:33:05>> what has to be so it maintains what it
2:33:06is.
2:33:06>> Yep.
2:33:07>> Yeah.
2:33:07>> And it's um so it's something that you
2:33:10know I um and I haven't talked to him
2:33:14since then. And um
2:33:15>> is he still in jail?
2:33:17>> I don't I don't know. I don't know. But
2:33:19I um
2:33:21>> I hope that him and I can reconnect and
2:33:23and that um yeah, he's not alone. I'm
2:33:25I'm with you. And um everything is is uh
2:33:29everything can be made uh everything
2:33:31will be used for our our good and God's
2:33:33glory if we're being honest. Even the
2:33:35suffering, the the the tragedies, the
2:33:38the trials to endure, but to endure for
2:33:41what? Because I think endurance to build
2:33:43endurance, right? If endurance doesn't
2:33:46connect to hope, it's misery. So, it
2:33:49needs to connect to hope. And that's
2:33:50what I'm doing, man. I'm trying to bring
2:33:51hope through my examples, not not trying
2:33:54to tell you what you need to do. I'm
2:33:56trying to live a life worth worth
2:33:58following.
2:33:59>> And just talking about your experiences,
2:34:02is it getting easier for you as you get
2:34:04reps under your belt?
2:34:05>> Yeah.
2:34:06>> How? Yeah.
2:34:07>> When I get to uh man, feeling to be able
2:34:10to feel is such a great gift. I know
2:34:13you're like, "What do you mean?" You
2:34:14know exactly what
2:34:14>> No, I know exactly what you mean. But
2:34:16some people listening might be like
2:34:18these guys are just like brainwashed or
2:34:20they're just Stockholm or not Stockholm
2:34:22but uh shell shocked you know and it's
2:34:24like yeah I mean there's aspects of like
2:34:26uh
2:34:28prolonged exposure to these environments
2:34:30that
2:34:31>> you the compartmentalization is a tool
2:34:33but it's a tool that's you have to be
2:34:34able to unpackage safely.
2:34:37>> The bill of sale is due on that tool.
2:34:39>> It's coming
2:34:40>> at some point in time.
2:34:43But talking about it has gotten easier
2:34:44and every time I do whether it's a
2:34:46public speaking because I I'll do public
2:34:47speaking
2:34:48>> for law enforcement predominantly I've
2:34:50tried I did one corporate thing and I
2:34:52was like this is not for me thank you
2:34:54for the opportunity because I just felt
2:34:55like everything I was saying was
2:34:57>> people were coming up to me after were
2:34:58like man I hope you get the help you
2:35:00need I'm like
2:35:02>> thank you thank you but that's not I
2:35:04don't leave I don't leave things with
2:35:05like I need help like no
2:35:07>> that is interesting feedback after a
2:35:09public presentation I I think people are
2:35:11coming up to you saying, "I hope you get
2:35:13the help you need."
2:35:14>> Yeah.
2:35:14>> I was like, "Well,
2:35:15>> I need to see the slide deck you talked
2:35:16to."
2:35:17>> I refined it. I refined it a [laughter]
2:35:18bit, too.
2:35:20>> But it's it is like, you know, maybe
2:35:22that eventually will be a part of uh you
2:35:24know, this mission at some point, but I
2:35:25just realized that you can't put a
2:35:27dollar and cents on on the impact that
2:35:30we can have.
2:35:31>> Yeah.
2:35:32>> And I'm better served right now uh
2:35:35speaking to the warrior class and the
2:35:37and and the protectors, right? So the
2:35:39private citizens that hear these
2:35:41messages too because I want guys and
2:35:43gals to just for one to protect
2:35:46innocence
2:35:47but also to truly protect the mind, the
2:35:50body, the spirit starts here. If I don't
2:35:53protect what I consume,
2:35:56the people I interact with, the way that
2:35:58I interact with them, am I really a
2:36:00protector physically? My kids knew that
2:36:03I would I would put myself in great
2:36:04harm's way. I'd put my life on and trade
2:36:07my life for theirs.
2:36:10Now, there's times through my fatherhood
2:36:13where belligerently drunk. Could I have
2:36:16done that? H
2:36:18straight up abandoning them, leaving
2:36:20their mo mother cuz I I it was it wasn't
2:36:23an issue with y'all. It was me and her.
2:36:25So, indirectly traumatizing them and
2:36:28then directly to try to make her pay.
2:36:30I'm gonna
2:36:32So, there's parts of of that story that
2:36:36it's like, no, I wasn't I wasn't
2:36:37actually doing the things that I that
2:36:39I'm preaching now, but but that doesn't
2:36:42matter because that's how I was showing
2:36:44up. This is who I am now. So, because
2:36:48when I walk into the room at that Airbnb
2:36:50when we go back, what does my youngest
2:36:52daughter do when I walk in the room?
2:36:54That's how I gauge. Am am I providing
2:36:56them? Am I protecting their mind, their
2:36:59spirit, their heart?
2:37:03And that's what matters most to me is is
2:37:05intentionality and tone. Like I don't I
2:37:08don't raise my voice anymore. I told you
2:37:11I don't cuss anymore. I started doing
2:37:12that with burpees per cuss word and that
2:37:14was fun.
2:37:15>> How many did you punish yourself?
2:37:16>> A lot per cuss word
2:37:18>> one because I know it seems like nothing
2:37:20but I cussed a lot.
2:37:21>> Okay. And you're getting some reps in.
2:37:23It could be mid-con conversation and I'd
2:37:25be like boom and you would have no you
2:37:27would have no idea that this was a part
2:37:29of something that I was doing
2:37:30>> and it's kind of a fun like
2:37:31conversational piece cuz then you'll see
2:37:33light bulbs come on in other men.
2:37:35>> Yeah.
2:37:35>> And they're like, you know what, I like
2:37:36that. I'm going to try it. And the
2:37:38biggest benefit that I found is I don't
2:37:41get as angry because those words are
2:37:44connected to a to an emotion and once it
2:37:47once they release it's really hard to
2:37:48bring them back.
2:37:49>> Yeah. So um just being very intentional
2:37:52about protecting providing safety and
2:37:55security truly like because that's what
2:37:57they they require from us as their
2:38:00protector but it's the mind the heart
2:38:03and the soul you know so I'm I'm I am
2:38:08called to that that leadership role and
2:38:11not just by a title
2:38:13um from God's design and what what the
2:38:16word of God it's the only tool that
2:38:17guides my life now and I don't get this
2:38:19right every day, but there's grace for
2:38:22that. Praise God for that, man. It it's
2:38:26Jesus's life on this earth was an
2:38:28example for me to to follow. And I was
2:38:29so interested in in my recovery of the
2:38:33man. And if you want a good moral guide,
2:38:37he is a wonderful he's the greatest
2:38:38moral guide that ever existed of how to
2:38:41live a a selfless, fruitful life.
2:38:45But he'd also be a lunatic if that were
2:38:46the only thing because of what he said.
2:38:48I am the way.
2:38:51I am the light. I'm the truth. I'm the
2:38:53only way to the father is through me.
2:38:56And I I I believe that he's more than
2:39:00just a moral god. CS Lewis described
2:39:02that in in Mere Christianity. And it's
2:39:05it it just makes so much sense to me.
2:39:07And that's what I choose to chase
2:39:09because I needed a man
2:39:12um every day of my life that my father
2:39:15wasn't.
2:39:17And I have that now. And I don't just
2:39:19have that. I have my heavenly father. I
2:39:21have Jesus to walk with and the Holy
2:39:23Spirit to fill my my voids instead of
2:39:27with other things. And all the things
2:39:29get easier. Sobriby's gotten so much
2:39:31easier. But I don't travel alone.
2:39:33>> I don't stay in hotels by myself because
2:39:35there's a chance
2:39:37>> because of
2:39:40the human the human condition and the
2:39:43world, culture, society. I got
2:39:45everything at my fingertips here, man. I
2:39:47keep pointing to this because this is a
2:39:48slave thing, but it can also be such a a
2:39:51tool that we can use and it takes
2:39:54building boundaries. And
2:39:55>> that's how you and I connected.
2:39:56>> Yeah. You know,
2:39:57>> no, exactly. And that's how we're able
2:39:58to share this message. And
2:40:00>> yeah,
2:40:00>> you know, I um it's extremely important
2:40:03in my life um to to share that message,
2:40:07but to meet people where they are. You
2:40:08know, I won't ever, you know, when I
2:40:12when I we openly pray in our classes at
2:40:15the beginning and the end of the day,
2:40:16and I use that as a challenge for
2:40:18people,
2:40:20I say, "Hey, we're going to pray because
2:40:23I need it." And maybe some of you
2:40:25realize you need it, too. But, uh, if
2:40:27you aren't religious, take this moment
2:40:28to reflect and meditate, meditate, and
2:40:31be be present. Be where your feet are
2:40:33because what we're doing and what we're
2:40:34about to do is inherently very
2:40:36dangerous. We're going to do it safely.
2:40:39We're going to push each other. We're
2:40:41going to learn. But it's dangerous. So,
2:40:43I'm going to ask for protection and for
2:40:45wisdom and guidance and openness, open
2:40:48heart posture to remove the ego.
2:40:51Um,
2:40:53and then I and then in the in the
2:40:55evenings, I I say I always say this. I'm
2:40:58like, does anyone feel called in the
2:41:00group to to close us out in prayer?
2:41:03And I and I look and I pause for a bit
2:41:05and I'll see, you know, occasionally
2:41:06I'll see one or two guys go
2:41:09something like that. And I and I don't
2:41:11call him out. I just say, "Guys, if if
2:41:13you felt that little small still voice
2:41:15or the tug on your heart and when I said
2:41:18that, I challenge you to go back and
2:41:20think about where that where that
2:41:22originated
2:41:24and that you cannot mess this up. I'm
2:41:27going to close this out in prayer, but
2:41:28tomorrow night, man, if you feel that
2:41:30same tug, just raise your hand, man.
2:41:33Everything that you say, you cannot mess
2:41:35up because he knows our thoughts before
2:41:37we even think them. He knows our heart,
2:41:39our posture, the intent. And that's been
2:41:42one of the biggest impacts I've been
2:41:44able to make
2:41:47um to truly impact our society. Do
2:41:50>> you ever see guys in your uh squadron
2:41:53praying together before operations?
2:41:56The only op that I've been on that we
2:41:59and this was very weird. I do see guys.
2:42:02Yeah. Like there's guys onesie twies but
2:42:04>> Yeah. onesie twies but as a collective
2:42:06there's only been one [clears throat]
2:42:06operation that
2:42:09>> it was very somber. I was like
2:42:14why why did we just do that? And then
2:42:16you say goodbye to your teammates
2:42:17because it it was very um what's the
2:42:20word? like uh complex the infill.
2:42:23>> Mhm.
2:42:24>> And very uh the likelihood of not
2:42:27likelihood, it was certain um that we're
2:42:30going to
2:42:33be engaged just what at what point
2:42:35during infill. So um it was the first
2:42:40time though I was I was like saying
2:42:42goodbye to my teammates and
2:42:45it was this kind of somber feeling, you
2:42:47know, I don't know if I'm going to see
2:42:48them again, but let's do this.
2:42:51But yeah, I mean, I didn't even remember
2:42:52that until you just said it. But you do
2:42:55see the onesies and twzies and it's like
2:42:57um [snorts] I used to be like, "Well,
2:43:00that's cool. They got their own thing
2:43:01that they do and usually over meals and
2:43:03stuff and um where you're like, "Hey,
2:43:06what? Hey, so and so people I really
2:43:08respected and admired and they're
2:43:11reading something and I'm like, "What
2:43:12you reading?" And it's the Bible. And
2:43:14I'm like, "Hm,
2:43:16that's not for me, but cool." And then
2:43:18there's guys that if there's an ounce of
2:43:21of error in their tactical prowess,
2:43:26you're like, "See, that's weakness."
2:43:28That what you're feeding yourself is
2:43:30weakness. You're the Christianity stuff
2:43:32that you're talking about and that
2:43:33you're you're doing and how you don't um
2:43:38partake in the after hours festivities
2:43:41because of what you're better than us.
2:43:43And so much of this, and this is the
2:43:44same thing I did to Erica, and she grew
2:43:47up in a a very, you know, cultish
2:43:51religion and as a Jehovah Witness, and
2:44:00she had her own reservations with
2:44:02organized religion and and we just
2:44:04didn't do it as a as a part of our
2:44:06relationship. And
2:44:07>> did you find your faith together when
2:44:09you did?
2:44:10>> Yeah. like when I pushed away in 2016, I
2:44:14moved out when I got back from that
2:44:15trip. Um,
2:44:18she leaned in to a faith that I hadn't
2:44:21really seen and maybe she was just doing
2:44:24it in private and I just couldn't see
2:44:25something. But yeah, I actually know
2:44:28that because she would do Bible like a
2:44:29Bible study with the kids on Thursday
2:44:31nights and um or like when I wasn't
2:44:33there on deployments and then I'd come
2:44:35back and they wouldn't do it. And I was
2:44:37like, hm. Didn't think any of it. But as
2:44:41I'm pushing away from her, she pushed
2:44:43into her faith and then she tried to
2:44:45share that with me. And I just would be
2:44:47like,
2:44:49rip that up. I don't need your God.
2:44:51Like, where is your God?
2:44:55And um her faith led me to where I'm at.
2:45:00So that's not for her. Uh, but meaning
2:45:03as a spiritual leader in our homes as
2:45:05men, that's what we're called to be. And
2:45:07that's not this like do what I say. It's
2:45:09it's holding a space to lead with our
2:45:12example, to lead them to understand, to
2:45:15make sense of, to to be okay with
2:45:18relationship because that's all prayer
2:45:19is, is relationship. He just wants
2:45:21communication. That's all he wants from
2:45:23us is communication. And we like to
2:45:25overthink it. And I mean, just talk to
2:45:27him. He He wants to listen. He wants to
2:45:29hear hear what you're going through. You
2:45:32can ask [clears throat] him things and
2:45:33of things of him. And it's uh you're
2:45:36never alone. And that's the piece that
2:45:37uh I think I've always just kind of
2:45:39filled the space of aloneeness with
2:45:42moments of isolation. And that became
2:45:44very
2:45:46uh unpredictable for me and for
2:45:48everybody I care about versus solitude.
2:45:50Solitude is such a powerful
2:45:54thing that we need. If you think about
2:45:55Jesus, he would do like the sermon, the
2:45:58sermon on the mount, one of the greatest
2:45:59teachings ever, and he would leave the
2:46:03disciples and say, "I need some time
2:46:05with God, with the with my father." And
2:46:08he'd go away from them, and that's
2:46:10solitude. So everything he did was an
2:46:11example for us to um to live a fruitful
2:46:14life. Um, but this is a calling and and
2:46:17blue bearing is a ministry and we just
2:46:19do it um using the gifts God's given us
2:46:22to teach, shooting, moving,
2:46:23communicating. Um, because once again,
2:46:27the the the success thing, the treasures
2:46:29you build up is the people. So, at the
2:46:30end of our our days, and this is my
2:46:32belief,
2:46:34you know, when Jesus does come back, you
2:46:36know, one of the last things that
2:46:37happens is all the sin and suffering
2:46:39we're feeling and pain is the tears are
2:46:41going to be wiped from our faces. And
2:46:43what were those tears for? the people
2:46:45that we could have witnessed to that are
2:46:46now separate living eternity separate
2:46:49from God. And that's what matters to me
2:46:51is because I I care about others
2:46:54and in their eternities. So, um, and I'm
2:46:58also very young in this in this walk and
2:47:00and and trying to be a good [snorts]
2:47:03steward of any resources. Um, cuz taking
2:47:06this full circle back to finances like
2:47:08it's to give, man, to experience things,
2:47:12memories, and then do something
2:47:14meaningful with
2:47:15>> Yeah.
2:47:16How do we prepare people to do the job
2:47:18that you did
2:47:21>> to to serve this country or to
2:47:25specifically your track at that level at
2:47:27that operational tempo? How do you
2:47:29prepare somebody for that and not have
2:47:32them a version of Humpty Dumpty at the
2:47:35end that is barely put back together
2:47:37again?
2:47:38Well, that's a I think it's wonderful
2:47:40that you said that because there's been,
2:47:41you know, there's other people that So,
2:47:44borderline if being emotionally
2:47:46regulated is is huge. So, where where
2:47:49you anchor that emotional regulation is
2:47:51huge. There is other mental illnesses
2:47:53like being a psychopath or a sociopath,
2:47:56which is a very real thing that we've
2:47:57experienc
2:47:58>> any of those on the Navy side.
2:48:01[laughter]
2:48:02>> Yeah, that's why y'all are better. Um,
2:48:05so clip that. Which, by the way, that's
2:48:07the that's the dumbest argument people
2:48:09engage in. Who's better? Seal Team Six.
2:48:11I'm like, shut up, guys.
2:48:13>> Let's let's just let's just do it. Like,
2:48:14let's do the mission. What's the miss?
2:48:16Let's go. Like, all of us together.
2:48:17Like,
2:48:17>> this is what I was telling Brent cuz we
2:48:19were talking about it. Like, hey, man,
2:48:20there's no CQB Olympics. Yeah.
2:48:21>> You know, there's no DA direct action
2:48:24Olympics. This is the dumbest waste of
2:48:27bandwidth ever.
2:48:28>> There's no finish line with it though
2:48:29either. Like, that's why because the the
2:48:30problems are unlimited. That's why I
2:48:33love it. And while I have the breath in
2:48:34my lungs and the physical abilities to
2:48:36do it,
2:48:37>> yeah,
2:48:38>> it's it's extremely uh intoxicating, if
2:48:41you will. Um
2:48:42>> it is,
2:48:43>> but but it it can be taught and it's not
2:48:47like what makes me so special.
2:48:50>> Like
2:48:51>> the choices that you took to get to
2:48:52where you're at. I mean, again, well,
2:48:54>> selflessness is
2:48:55>> special and unique, I guess, are you
2:48:57know, I don't think they're
2:48:58interchangeable. Some of the choices
2:48:59that you made to get to where you were
2:49:01were unique. Yeah,
2:49:02>> some of the actions that you took were
2:49:04very special and I think a lot of people
2:49:06would hope to include myself that
2:49:08pressed in that situation you'd have the
2:49:09stones to do it. I tell you what, until
2:49:12you're in that situation, you can
2:49:14hypothesize all day long.
2:49:16>> Mhm.
2:49:16>> It's easy to say when it's time to do
2:49:18gangster [ __ ] you're going to be ready
2:49:19to do it. When that day arrives, you and
2:49:23I I mean, you know the reality of it.
2:49:25You either you either rise to the
2:49:27occasion or you don't.
2:49:28>> Yeah.
2:49:29>> Yeah, though. For sure. But the the
2:49:31biggest thing I think that can help
2:49:33prepare you.
2:49:35I mean is
2:49:38is us like we being good examples for
2:49:42others. Not not living in living this
2:49:46persona. Not saying this like oh look at
2:49:49me. Oh combat this. I'll never glorify
2:49:53this. But the right men and women that
2:49:55are called to do it can endure it. But
2:49:57it is a burden. And if that is you, if
2:50:00you feel that is you, there is so many
2:50:03positive male and female role models
2:50:05that we can we can develop that maybe
2:50:08aren't our parents
2:50:10that we can develop this sense of what's
2:50:12right and what's wrong. Uh and then put
2:50:15words to our values, our boundaries.
2:50:19That's man because if that's you, if
2:50:21you're one of those people that has this
2:50:23call in their heart to protect
2:50:26and you don't have the values, the words
2:50:28to the values and boundaries, you're
2:50:30going to end up like I did. But it's not
2:50:33too late. And that's why I'm here to
2:50:35share, to heal out loud, to share a
2:50:37testimony. There can't be a testimony
2:50:39without tests.
2:50:41in everything that I'm doing now is to
2:50:43be that example for them and to be there
2:50:45if I can to help guide them if God
2:50:48places them in my life. And some of the
2:50:51one of the some of the like most
2:50:52profound things that happen with me and
2:50:55what I'm doing now is is that call to
2:50:58service. you know, I'll get messages
2:50:59and, you know, and I try to respond to
2:51:02what I can, but but to be impacted by
2:51:05that um to see to be there at their
2:51:08graduation,
2:51:09not everybody, but the ones that have
2:51:11like physically been placed in my life,
2:51:14man, because that's what makes I think
2:51:16this country, the people are what make
2:51:18this the greatest country on the planet.
2:51:20And that will always be the case if we
2:51:23remain in service to this country and
2:51:25others. [sighs]
2:51:27uh humanity, you know, and that's not
2:51:29glorifying killing. It's not glorifying
2:51:31war. It's a part of life. It's a part of
2:51:33life since the beginning of time is you
2:51:35have this, I want that. You have this, I
2:51:38want this reign, I'm going to take it.
2:51:40>> Or I believe this and you believe that.
2:51:42>> Exactly. Yeah.
2:51:43>> So if because there's so many things
2:51:46that you and I both did that we didn't
2:51:48agree upon why we were there, but okay,
2:51:51what we going to do? Quit.
2:51:53>> Like what what is that going to do? Now
2:51:55they're now they're now they're enduring
2:51:57it and I'm quitting. So, so much of it
2:52:01is the guys to your left and right and
2:52:04that gets us through the next day the
2:52:07next day and and the next day and but at
2:52:10the end of the day like one of the
2:52:11things that is very upsetting is like
2:52:14serving as many times as I did and you
2:52:17did in Afghanistan for us to pull out
2:52:18the way we did. And I don't want to make
2:52:20this about politics. But the thing is is
2:52:22like
2:52:24campaign promises are a freaking
2:52:28well that's why ISIS became a real
2:52:30problem. That's why Iran became a a real
2:52:32significant problem when we pulled out
2:52:34based on campaign promises and not not
2:52:37and not not saying that we need a status
2:52:39of forces agreement. All these things
2:52:40and the way we pulled out Afghanistan is
2:52:42just freaking and just abandoned. It's
2:52:44not just politically aligned. It's not
2:52:47like political party align like this
2:52:48same thing like I tell people I've
2:52:50served during a time through Bush
2:52:53through Obama and then through Trump
2:52:56where and I guess Biden um where
2:53:01at certain points like we got to do more
2:53:03under the Obama administration.
2:53:05>> Yeah, dude. He was a savage people.
2:53:07>> But that was very unique to us like in
2:53:09the in this in the tier that we were in
2:53:13>> or unless you were a drone operator.
2:53:14dude.
2:53:15>> Yeah,
2:53:15>> he [snorts]
2:53:16let the dogs of war off the chain with
2:53:18the drones.
2:53:18>> But but then at the same point
2:53:21going after dismantle the caliphate with
2:53:23ISIS,
2:53:26maybe we got both hands were tied before
2:53:30and then Trump allowed us to untie one.
2:53:32So now we're just throwing hooks and
2:53:34jabs with one hand. And it's just like,
2:53:36man, the the the greatest power that we
2:53:39have is is the ability to to to leverage
2:53:42our military to deter war. So, I think
2:53:46there's been so many use cases over
2:53:48these years of like I'm not going to
2:53:51waste my life on the noise, man. And
2:53:54what can I influence? What can I should
2:53:56or be aware of? And what can I control?
2:53:58Really, control is my actions and
2:53:59reactions. What we talked about earlier,
2:54:01>> these three spheres. And if I've been
2:54:04called to serve in this in these
2:54:06capacities, and that's if that's you as
2:54:08a young man or woman, know that it comes
2:54:11with with great burden and great cost.
2:54:13And what that cost looks like is based
2:54:15on how much you've prepared your whole
2:54:18being for things that aren't normal.
2:54:21>> Do you think, and I'll ask this through
2:54:23the lens of
2:54:24>> Same with law enforcement, too. It's not
2:54:26first responders, respond car accidents,
2:54:28like
2:54:29>> sometimes I would say an even harder
2:54:30job. At least we could clock in and
2:54:32clock out. I mean, they
2:54:34>> I don't I'm not reminded of the
2:54:36horrendous wrecks or
2:54:38>> of loss of life when I'm driving home.
2:54:40You know what I mean? Because these
2:54:41officers are serving in their
2:54:42communities.
2:54:42>> Yeah,
2:54:43>> I would agree with you. The cost can be
2:54:44tremendous. But do you think
2:54:49you can be a better version of yourself
2:54:52as a human because of it? Oftentimes,
2:54:53it's only phrased through the lens of
2:54:55the broken toy narrative. If you go this
2:54:57path,
2:54:58>> you're going to be broken. or that we're
2:55:00talking about all these things of like,
2:55:01oh, we're just these damaged warrior
2:55:03operators and just wo is me.
2:55:05>> I feel like I am a substantially better
2:55:07version of myself because of my
2:55:09experiences.
2:55:10>> Yeah.
2:55:10>> Were they all great? No. The vast
2:55:12majority of them were not great. But
2:55:14what I can do with those experiences or
2:55:16work through them and do with them
2:55:18afterwards
2:55:19doesn't mean they have those experiences
2:55:21don't have to define me and they can
2:55:22make me a better version of a human
2:55:24being.
2:55:24>> Absolutely. I mean that's that's the
2:55:27that's the uh that's the secret like
2:55:33there is there is things that you'll be
2:55:35faced and have to do that are going to
2:55:38impact you. It's what we do. Do we let
2:55:40it define the tsunami thing like do we
2:55:42let it define us, destroy us or improve
2:55:44us? And in failure, if you don't if
2:55:48you're not expecting failure, you're
2:55:51naive
2:55:52because failure is what builds us to
2:55:55improve. And you know this. And that's a
2:55:58big part of why you wrote that book that
2:56:00I can tell from from my observations. I
2:56:02>> want to have a positive impact, man. And
2:56:04help people. I all I want to do with the
2:56:05rest of my life is have a positive
2:56:06impact.
2:56:07>> Yeah. And that's what you're doing with
2:56:09it. So, and learning lessons and sharing
2:56:12those because knowledge, man. Knowledge
2:56:14is one of the most powerful things that
2:56:15we can share with each other. But it's
2:56:17also, oh, you know, I don't teach
2:56:19civilians this because it's it's a
2:56:21secret. And I'm like, go read a Ranger
2:56:24handbook.
2:56:24>> I'm still waiting to learn the secret
2:56:25CQB, by the way.
2:56:26>> Yeah, I know. I'm like,
2:56:28>> it's squad attack if you think about it.
2:56:30Like, uh like,
2:56:31>> oh, you guys use a different angle
2:56:33measure. Like, no, angles are angles,
2:56:35man. I mean,
2:56:36>> I also don't think it's infinite. maybe
2:56:38infinite number of scenarios, but the
2:56:40angles and the math and what you what
2:56:41you've largely
2:56:42>> once you start to hammer those, man,
2:56:43it's like, okay, this is just a new
2:56:45problem.
2:56:46>> Yeah, that goes back to the problem
2:56:48solving piece, but it's like a lot of
2:56:50people think that they're, you know, you
2:56:51get the badge holder or the badge
2:56:53protecting or whatever kind of mindset
2:56:55of like knowledge is mine, man. So, and
2:56:58this is prevalent everywhere. I don't
2:57:00think it's just in the tactical, you
2:57:02know, environments. I think it's like
2:57:04life. Knowledge is power. So they're
2:57:07like, I'm not going to share all my
2:57:08knowledge because then I'll be replaced.
2:57:12It's it's not it's not a a matter of if,
2:57:15it's just when you will be replaced.
2:57:17There is a there is a shelf life on
2:57:19these tactical environments. I can't
2:57:22tell you what it is. It's preparation.
2:57:24It's it's you know how much what's your
2:57:26coping mechanisms? All the things. How
2:57:27do you interact? How do you deal with
2:57:29fear? How do you deal with pain?
2:57:32Um, and how do you uh recover from those
2:57:34things and failure? And that's the shelf
2:57:37life is uh it's coming though. But that
2:57:41but it's just it's a part of your life
2:57:43or part of it. And what you're doing and
2:57:45what I'm doing and so many others is is
2:57:48showing others that we can be successful
2:57:50outside of what we've been indoctrinated
2:57:52to believe is the pinnacle of our lives.
2:57:54And it's not. It was a part of it. And
2:57:57extremely proud to have. It's the
2:57:59hardest place to get to, to stay at, and
2:58:00to leave. But it was a job. It was a
2:58:03part of my life. And I'm remorseful for
2:58:06the things that I did that that didn't
2:58:08honor that place or my family or God.
2:58:11And I'm doing something with it. And I
2:58:14think that's the part that's
2:58:15inspirational because motivation is
2:58:17fleeting
2:58:18>> and it's uh very tight, man. Comes in
2:58:21and out.
2:58:21>> Yeah. Exactly. And so how do you
2:58:24discipline you know that but in in
2:58:26inspiration is a is a thing that I think
2:58:29we can be uh using uh being a good
2:58:32steward of the ability to influence as
2:58:34we build and be and are challenged with
2:58:36these new endeavors you know and we'll
2:58:39make mistakes as we have and we'll learn
2:58:41and we'll grow we'll share them um
2:58:44appropriately and you know that's the
2:58:46point is the knowledge piece is powerful
2:58:48if you share it. It's the most selfish
2:58:50thing if you don't. So I agree.
2:58:53>> If you were the uh KAG king for a day,
2:58:56what one thing I'm not saying there's
2:58:59only one thing that would need to be
2:59:01changed, but has spending as much time
2:59:02as you did there. What would you change
2:59:06if anything?
2:59:11I think the transition piece, which is a
2:59:13part of what I talked about in the
2:59:15beginning, like it's it's it's a matter
2:59:17of time. Um and and that's the thing is
2:59:20like nobody leaves that place that was
2:59:21an operator that either didn't retire or
2:59:25that retired that's how they leave got
2:59:27told to leave or they couldn't
2:59:29physically do the job anymore because of
2:59:31injuries or performance. So it's
2:59:35something that there's nothing I would
2:59:37change about
2:59:39the culture of that.
2:59:42>> But the transition piece I think which I
2:59:45believe they are doing you know another
2:59:48thing that I know has changed as a
2:59:49result of me being very well couldn't
2:59:51hide from it. um was that when a crisis
2:59:55response happens, like there has to be
2:59:57there was all these like um crisis
3:00:00management teams flying in from agency X
3:00:03Y and Z and triaging people that weren't
3:00:06even in the hotel, but they were just
3:00:09impacted by that mission or by that
3:00:11situation. Sykes and docs and and all
3:00:14that. And I'm over in the corner
3:00:15coloring. I'm like,
3:00:19okay, I'm good. And uh I I um I think
3:00:24that's something that
3:00:27because I was very open about like, hey
3:00:29man, I needed something to sink my teeth
3:00:31into like I'm unraveling.
3:00:33Um
3:00:35that helped kind of
3:00:37uh bring in some support there towards
3:00:40the very end as I'm coming home. But a
3:00:44lot of the damage had already been done
3:00:45and I took and the way I was showing up
3:00:47over there kind of lawlessness. I never
3:00:49used to drink and drive. I did there and
3:00:51I took that home.
3:00:54Um, I was just so uh angry. I couldn't
3:00:57even look at the continent of Africa
3:00:58without getting triggered. I couldn't
3:01:00look at very dark complexed black black
3:01:02people without getting triggered. And it
3:01:03it and uh it was um I needed to heal,
3:01:06man. And um I needed to be rescued from
3:01:09myself. And I think as leaders like we
3:01:12have to see that as as as exceptional of
3:01:16human beings that can work in one place
3:01:18that like that organization and I'm sure
3:01:21with your organization too. It's
3:01:24like we have to create these
3:01:28um protocols, you know, and and I saw
3:01:31that kind of happening the last couple
3:01:33years I was there because kind of like
3:01:36the TBI protocol like it became a thing.
3:01:38>> Yeah. like it should you got to sit out
3:01:41like you just got bopped. You can't pass
3:01:43the the PT, the vestibular and all that.
3:01:45>> You got to sit out until you can get a
3:01:47screen like a concussion protocol.
3:01:49>> Like that became a real thing. But this
3:01:52is all kind of post 2016. So
3:01:55I think that has changed in the sense of
3:01:58like these um crisis response teams that
3:02:02aren't the operators, the the support,
3:02:05you know, the the chaplain, the the
3:02:08medical, the the the psychological um
3:02:12professionals kind of coming in and I
3:02:15think the best thing that could have
3:02:16happened to me and I don't like I said I
3:02:17don't want to play God and try to change
3:02:19anything was to get out of that country
3:02:21and I wouldn't have volunteered to do
3:02:23it.
3:02:24>> Yeah.
3:02:24>> Um I needed a leader to tell me like,
3:02:27"Hey, we we need you to we need you to
3:02:29go over here. We're going to switch you
3:02:30out with this and we need you to work on
3:02:32this over here."
3:02:33>> And I'm like, "Okay, roger that." So,
3:02:35and this isn't like I'm a victim. It's
3:02:38it's just we didn't we didn't know or
3:02:40didn't know either. And it's and it was
3:02:42it wasn't a mission. It wasn't a mission
3:02:44that we planned for. It's a it's a
3:02:45mission that we trained for in a in a
3:02:48certain way. And there's aspects that I
3:02:50like the active attack, you know, side
3:02:52of it that we weren't necessarily
3:02:54trained for, but applied the techniques
3:02:56that we do with hostage rescue.
3:02:59And um, you know, I think that's one
3:03:02thing uh coupled with the transition
3:03:05piece of knowing that there is a point
3:03:08of um it's time to to hang it up and
3:03:12let's let's help you sink something sink
3:03:14your teeth into some the next thing.
3:03:16>> Yeah. Are you more proud of the man you
3:03:18are now or the man you were and the
3:03:20things you were able to accomplish in
3:03:21the military?
3:03:22>> The man I am now like by a lot.
3:03:24>> I hope people hear that because
3:03:28you served at the absolute highest level
3:03:30for a really long time and accomplished
3:03:33I would say just about everything that
3:03:36anybody looking for a highle career in
3:03:38the military would want to do. And
3:03:41you're more proud of the things you've
3:03:42done and have become afterwards.
3:03:45People have to hear that because they
3:03:48get lost and everything is in who they
3:03:50were and what they did
3:03:52>> or what they're trying to do.
3:03:54>> Yeah.
3:03:55>> And I I think that you can do those
3:03:57things and and I like what I'm most
3:03:59Thank you for saying that. Um I don't
3:04:01want to gloss over that. That means a
3:04:03lot. Um
3:04:05I am most proud
3:04:08of of being the husband to my wife and
3:04:11the father to my children. And if God
3:04:13blesses us with grandchildren, I'm so
3:04:16excited about that because I didn't have
3:04:18that. And it's not an excuse. I'm doing
3:04:21something about it.
3:04:23>> And and being a a positive male role
3:04:27model as I as I walk through the
3:04:29streets, as I'm given opportunities to
3:04:32impact our youth, like that's how we
3:04:34change our society. It's not going to be
3:04:36you and I that make the change. It's
3:04:38going to be them and their children.
3:04:40>> It's definitely not going to be the
3:04:41government.
3:04:42>> [laughter]
3:04:43>> I've I've landed on the top is not going
3:04:46to it's not going to cascade top down.
3:04:49It has to be bottom up. It's through the
3:04:50things you're talking about though.
3:04:52>> It is generational and it's on a
3:04:54timeline.
3:04:55>> I don't think the trains are come off
3:04:57going to come off the track for our
3:04:58country. It might rattle a little bit on
3:05:00the track, but I think it's supposed to
3:05:01actually. Maybe it needs to to reinvest
3:05:04in what it is you're talking about.
3:05:04>> Well, think about the awakenings, the
3:05:06revivals like uh post Charlie Kirk
3:05:09assassination. like that was a revival
3:05:12and now we're it's kind of crickets. But
3:05:14my point is that that's a big part of
3:05:16why Mike Ritland um turned his life back
3:05:20to Christ and
3:05:21>> which was recent, right? Is
3:05:23>> Yeah. Yeah.
3:05:23>> No, he shared that with me on the
3:05:25podcast real time and I was just like
3:05:27blown away and and and the conversation
3:05:29I was just like cuz I thought he was an
3:05:30atheist and
3:05:32>> and it it God was working me over too
3:05:34because I was apprehensive to do it. Not
3:05:36because I don't um I just I I scrutinize
3:05:41everything that I do now through this
3:05:44lens, through this new perspective,
3:05:47solid footing and purpose. Am I on solid
3:05:50footing?
3:05:52And if you're not a man of uh faith
3:05:55mentally, am I physically on solid
3:05:58footing? Mentally, you know, am I on
3:05:59solid footing? And then do I have a
3:06:02purpose for what it is I'm going to do?
3:06:04And if because the purpose alone can be
3:06:07very blinding passion very blinding. So
3:06:11if I can't be if I can't answer yes to
3:06:14both of those in any given
3:06:16uh scenario like I don't I just don't do
3:06:20it. And it's not like not ever. It's
3:06:22just not yet. Not right now. Um so
3:06:25that's where but you do have to take
3:06:26risks too. And
3:06:28like I just don't want to grab mics to
3:06:30grab mics, man. But it's it's part of
3:06:32that kind of call of like being that
3:06:34quiet professional. So doing it with
3:06:35integrity, with honor, not trying to and
3:06:38there's some people that won't won't see
3:06:40anything other than the title of Delta
3:06:42Force operator Kyle Morgan. Didn't he
3:06:45get fired? Didn't this and that and
3:06:47>> Is that how you like me to title the
3:06:48video? Michael, write that down.
3:06:50>> Yeah, write that down.
3:06:51>> It's a really long YouTube title. I
3:06:52think it cuts it off. [laughter]
3:06:56>> Paraphrase that.
3:06:56>> Yeah. But my point my point is is that
3:06:59the the there's people that I'm uh given
3:07:02the gifts, given this opportunity that I
3:07:05get to do, not have to.
3:07:07>> Yeah.
3:07:07>> Um
3:07:09checking in. Am I on solid footing? Do I
3:07:11have a purpose? I've regained. And
3:07:13that's where there's like it's a daily
3:07:15thing throughout the day. And
3:07:19when I can't answer those questions, I
3:07:21don't just say no right away. I I I seek
3:07:25wisdom vertically and then I I express
3:07:28outwardly to the people to the few.
3:07:31Chris Fedes is a really close friend of
3:07:32mine and really post any military
3:07:35service. We did the a jump course
3:07:37together. I didn't know that but um
3:07:41uh did a horny gorilla together and and
3:07:4310 years later I got to meet him again
3:07:45for the first time, but he's a really
3:07:48close friend of mine and I'm really
3:07:49proud of him and and what he's doing.
3:07:51And um there's several others, but we
3:07:54only need a few that we can, you know,
3:07:56seek counsel from and be honest with
3:07:58because you're only going to get what
3:07:59you give. And
3:08:00>> yeah,
3:08:00>> if you want them to tell you that that's
3:08:03the right answer, then you're going to
3:08:04get the right answer that you've already
3:08:06made up in your mind. So being
3:08:08vulnerable and capable though because
3:08:11vulnerability as a man is one of the
3:08:13most another powerful thing that we can
3:08:15do or display but it can also be used to
3:08:18hurt you if you don't turn it into an
3:08:20asset
3:08:21>> a strength and that's where capability
3:08:22comes.
3:08:24>> So with the skills of my hand and the
3:08:27integrity of my heart regardless of
3:08:29violating my own integrity what did that
3:08:31do? It didn't mean I didn't have
3:08:32integrity. It mean I I damaged it. I
3:08:35inflicted injury morally
3:08:38over and over and a lot of it was
3:08:40personally like in my personal decision-
3:08:42making in the lack of care for my own uh
3:08:46well-being you know I wasn't it wasn't
3:08:49worth it you know and um goes back to
3:08:53identity but getting yourself outside of
3:08:56yourself I think is the challenge for
3:08:58each and every one of us daily and and
3:09:01sometimes that's just how we start our
3:09:03day you know um which is kind of uh this
3:09:06kind of oxymoron maybe that's the wrong
3:09:08way to put it but
3:09:10we want to before we be proactive versus
3:09:13reactive with how we start our days but
3:09:15a lot of it is looking inward uh uh and
3:09:18and then re but reading too though like
3:09:20journaling and reading is extremely
3:09:22important
3:09:23>> and then visualization you know all
3:09:25those things are extremely important to
3:09:26be proactive but you know if you think
3:09:29about for me it started with one thing
3:09:31I'm gonna do one thing to get myself
3:09:33outside of myself today. And some of
3:09:36that is in the beginning was I'm not
3:09:40going to go over here because over here
3:09:42I did a bad I did a lot of bad things.
3:09:44So I'm just going to stay away from
3:09:46there. People, places, and things got to
3:09:48change. I have to literally change my
3:09:50actions and then work my way through
3:09:52feelings and thoughts. This loop that
3:09:55gets disrupted.
3:09:57But it could just be, you know, not
3:10:00responding.
3:10:02you see something like I want to punch
3:10:03this dude in the face
3:10:06but I don't why am I weak do I not have
3:10:11the ability to do it
3:10:13it's the space through instinct and
3:10:16action and that take that takes very
3:10:18intentional practice
3:10:20um I think the more capable you are the
3:10:22more space you can provide yourself too
3:10:24>> absolutely
3:10:24>> a lot of times people jump into that
3:10:26action because they're scared or they're
3:10:29untested or they feel like they're
3:10:31unproven Y
3:10:32>> they don't have the reps. Once you
3:10:34understand your capability and you keep
3:10:36pressing it and constantly innovating
3:10:39and evolving and growing with it, I mean
3:10:42the most people the people I know who
3:10:43are the most capable of violence are the
3:10:44ones who least look for it. That sound
3:10:46like warrior in the garden versus
3:10:48gardener in the war. You know, it's it's
3:10:51blessed are the peacemakers, man. And it
3:10:53it's u I'm capable of extreme violence
3:10:56and I choose to live a peaceful life.
3:10:58But in order to be capable to say that,
3:11:01I have to practice these skills.
3:11:03>> Yeah.
3:11:04>> You know, so we're going to do jiu-jitsu
3:11:06tomorrow and have you ball me up.
3:11:10>> I don't know, man.
3:11:10>> Zero pride.
3:11:11>> I feel like you're going to be a
3:11:12handful.
3:11:13>> Yeah, but I endurance is is lacking
3:11:16right now.
3:11:16>> So, here's the beauty, though. We focus
3:11:18on your daughter.
3:11:19>> Yeah.
3:11:20>> Wait till you see my wife's eyes light
3:11:22up.
3:11:23>> I'm so excited.
3:11:24She it it's such a again it's a tool.
3:11:28It's a capability.
3:11:30>> She'll do uh women's self-defense
3:11:32courses. That's she doesn't call them
3:11:33that. The gym calls them that. She will
3:11:35be the first person to tell you that in
3:11:37a two-hour seminar if you apply the term
3:11:40women's self-defense to that you're
3:11:41you're not being honest about something
3:11:43you don't have in that amount of time.
3:11:45>> Totally.
3:11:45>> Yeah.
3:11:46>> She starts with how you present
3:11:47yourself, how you walk, how you carry
3:11:49yourself.
3:11:50>> Don't don't look as if you're an easy
3:11:52victim. posture, your gaze, and
3:11:54>> the way that your hands swing and things
3:11:56like that. It's uh
3:11:58>> it's such an incredible tool and but
3:12:01literally the people I know who are
3:12:02capable of the most violence are not the
3:12:04ones who are out there looking to
3:12:06>> engage in it because I think they have
3:12:07that capability and they understand
3:12:09>> they know the consequences do
3:12:10>> and the cost of violence. I mean,
3:12:13>> yeah, it's uh
3:12:15>> I enjoy peace.
3:12:16>> Yeah, me too.
3:12:17>> Very much so.
3:12:17>> It's I mean, like I said, I'm not going
3:12:19to rob myself of that gift.
3:12:21>> Yeah.
3:12:21>> Of peace. cuz I could do it uh very
3:12:24easily. Um in fact that's the daily the
3:12:29daily struggle is ego you know and
3:12:31>> for us all
3:12:32>> yeah for every one of us and you know um
3:12:36but intentionality is is so important
3:12:39get yourself outside of yourself daily.
3:12:41The reason that we don't call the the
3:12:43our training course the active shooter
3:12:45response training certification,
3:12:47it's the protector mindset course
3:12:49because I do believe that in the
3:12:50three-day experience with us, you can
3:12:52take that with you. Just like to your
3:12:53point with your wife
3:12:55>> and how she's kind of like jaded about
3:12:58calling that a self women's self-defense
3:13:01course in a in any two-hour given time.
3:13:03It's the same way with me with three
3:13:04days. It's still like giving you
3:13:08specific tangible things that you can
3:13:09take and work on. They don't let you
3:13:11leave until you come up with because I
3:13:12ask you you'll say like well I just want
3:13:14to I want to dry fire more. I'm like
3:13:16well what does that mean first of all
3:13:18like specifically what do you mean like
3:13:20what aspect of dryf firing because we
3:13:22all need to dry fire ourselves a little
3:13:24bit more every day
3:13:26>> like head to toe
3:13:28>> you know and and then if they if they
3:13:32say like man I just need to I need to
3:13:34train on CQB more. I'm like yep so so do
3:13:37I. We all do. Um, you got to be more
3:13:40specific or else you're just you're
3:13:42going to it's cost a lot to train with
3:13:44us, but you will get more than your
3:13:46money's worth in that any given amount
3:13:49of time. And that's
3:13:50>> value are two different things. And it's
3:13:52okay to have a high price when you have
3:13:53an exceptional value.
3:13:54>> Yeah. And and and building community
3:13:56because everybody that walks out of
3:13:57there like I want you to go home and
3:13:59look at things differently. Okay. what
3:14:02that's some of the tangible things that
3:14:03you can work on. Reading doors, hands,
3:14:05all those things, processing the
3:14:06environments
3:14:08and getting more creative with how and
3:14:09what you're specifically training on.
3:14:12Um,
3:14:15and a lot of things that get glossed
3:14:16over because people are like, "Oh, we
3:14:18just master the basics." I'm like,
3:14:19"Yeah, yeah, yeah." But mastery of the
3:14:21basics is there's no finish line. Like,
3:14:24I can become very good with my weapons
3:14:26handling, but you give me a different
3:14:27gun. How good am I with that? So there's
3:14:30a there's a there's like so many things
3:14:32that we can even add to our weapons
3:14:33manipulations to mastering the basics
3:14:37and problem solving, man. Like it's it's
3:14:39u it's how we view the problem we get to
3:14:43versus we have to. And because when
3:14:46bullets are flying, man, you're not
3:14:48going to rise to that occasion. You're
3:14:49going to you're going to fall back to
3:14:50what you what you've done
3:14:51>> level of your training. Yeah.
3:14:53>> What do you want to uh what do you want
3:14:55to leave people with? We've been out for
3:14:56almost three and a half hours.
3:14:57>> Have we? Yeah.
3:14:57>> This has been a good conversation. Yeah.
3:14:59>> Um,
3:14:59>> and then I have a gift for you.
3:15:00>> Oh, so I do want to say
3:15:02>> guess what? You'll never guess what it
3:15:03is.
3:15:04>> I [laughter] I uh
3:15:06>> close my eyes. Um,
3:15:09the the mission that I'm on with
3:15:11Frontline Healing Foundation.
3:15:13So, people that don't know, I've
3:15:15mentioned Tom Spooner a couple times in
3:15:16this in this conversation, but he and
3:15:18Josh and Lisa Lannon uh started Warriors
3:15:21Heart um uh which is a residential
3:15:23treatment facility based out of
3:15:25Bandaraa, Texas. There's one in
3:15:26Virginia. Um 42-day treatment unlike
3:15:30anything. Uh I've never went through the
3:15:32treatment myself, but I've witnessed
3:15:34aspects of it. I've participated in
3:15:36aspects of it. I've I've taken tours
3:15:40with people to to show them the the the
3:15:42the healing warriors healing warriors.
3:15:45So they started a nonprofit side,
3:15:47Warriors Heart Foundation. And at a
3:15:50certain point, they decided to rebrand
3:15:53that to Frontline Healing Foundation.
3:15:55and then also open it up because of
3:15:56optics. Like it's it's not it wasn't a
3:15:59function to to to pad the for-profit
3:16:01side of a residential treatment center
3:16:03for chemical dependencies, postraumatic
3:16:05stress, TBI. That's where the combative
3:16:07or the jiu-jitsu thing they do the
3:16:09clients, that's what they call them. You
3:16:11go through treatment. If you need detox,
3:16:12you do the detox part and then you start
3:16:13your treatment. Um, but the first thing
3:16:16that you experience when you get there
3:16:17is a sign in like a living room setting
3:16:21as you're checking in, strung out,
3:16:23wherever you are, you're checking in and
3:16:25it says, "Welcome home." Everybody that
3:16:27interacts with you says, "Welcome home."
3:16:29Shakes your hand. So, it's unlike
3:16:31anything I've ever experienced. There's
3:16:32a culture to
3:16:35successfully completing that treatment,
3:16:37which is unlike anything I've ever
3:16:39versus doing your time.
3:16:40>> 28 days, man. That's all I got to do.
3:16:42I'm in rehab or you know it's very
3:16:44different but there is a big there's a
3:16:47void um financially and and it's either
3:16:51through VA claims that get held up or
3:16:53denied through military active or
3:16:56veteran uh law enforcement private
3:16:59healthc care only pays a portion of
3:17:01their treatment costs or they don't have
3:17:03insurance
3:17:05um first responders. So, it's a broad
3:17:07net that I I don't know of another
3:17:09nonprofit
3:17:10that casts a net, but the the primary
3:17:12focus being chemical dependency and
3:17:15postmax stress, TBI, and so on. So, they
3:17:17do mer there, they'll do uh art uh wood
3:17:21shop, wood shop stuff, they'll do metal
3:17:24work, man. It's And then the the work,
3:17:26you got to do the work. And um it's it's
3:17:30beautiful, man. and and I've been on a
3:17:31part of the Frontline Healing Foundation
3:17:34uh board of directors for almost two
3:17:36years and it's volunteer. I don't get
3:17:38paid to do it. And it started with how
3:17:42do I give back to that organization and
3:17:45I did a fundraiser for my birthday and
3:17:46was able to donate what was the average
3:17:48cost which was of of what they would pay
3:17:51out in a hardship which is like 10
3:17:5310,300 bucks. And I was able to do it
3:17:56because of our following and my God's
3:17:59working the influence, my ability to
3:18:01influence and and then a private um
3:18:03donor paid the rest of it that we didn't
3:18:05do on social media. But I I'm invested
3:18:09is what I mean and then our donations.
3:18:11But I got an opportunity to be on the
3:18:13board and I've been serving on the board
3:18:15and one of the hardest things I got to
3:18:17do is read these hardships. So you
3:18:18submit you need help. Hardest thing to
3:18:21do say I need help.
3:18:23you reach some sort of roadblock
3:18:25financially, you can submit a general
3:18:28hardship application through
3:18:29frontlinehealingfoundation.org
3:18:31and you fill out as much as you want to
3:18:34fill out, but it matters because I we
3:18:37have to read on the board. We read all
3:18:39the narratives. I look at their DD214s.
3:18:41I look at any of their law enforcement
3:18:44post stuff or any of their credentials
3:18:46to make sure that they are say who they
3:18:48say they are and their bank statements
3:18:51to make sure that they actually are in a
3:18:52a financial hardship. We have to
3:18:54scrutinize every dollar that we receive
3:18:56and push out. Um
3:18:59but one of the hardest things to do just
3:19:01to kind of summarize this is to say no
3:19:03due to lack of funds. So, I could read
3:19:05these hardships and I'm like, man, I
3:19:07wish we could help this guy. And we'll
3:19:08try to find a way even though we don't
3:19:10have lack of funds or we have a lack of
3:19:11funds. But last year, the the numbers
3:19:15don't lie. We we were able to to to pay
3:19:18700,000 to give $700,000 away to to the
3:19:22service members, to the law enforcement,
3:19:23to the first responders to get this
3:19:25life-saving treatment. Some of us need
3:19:27rescuing from ourselves, and I don't
3:19:28want there to be a financial barrier if
3:19:30we can do anything about it. And we can.
3:19:32We're doing it on a small scale.
3:19:34But but we received $2.5 million in
3:19:37hardships last year and paid 700. So
3:19:41there is
3:19:42>> there's a need.
3:19:43>> There's a need. And I thought in the
3:19:45beginning of working on the board that
3:19:46it was like the awareness that it was
3:19:48something that the service members, the
3:19:49warriors could um apply for. It's not.
3:19:53We got to keep promoting that, but we
3:19:56need to find the people that can
3:19:58financially donate. And it's not these
3:19:59tactical sponsors, man. They're getting
3:20:01hit up left and right. and a lot of what
3:20:04they donate comes out of their
3:20:05marketing.
3:20:05>> Yeah.
3:20:06>> So, it's one of those investments that
3:20:08it's on people's for their lives, man.
3:20:10And I'm not saying that we don't have
3:20:12industry partners that that help. We do
3:20:15in a big way. Um but we I have to find a
3:20:18part of my my challenge of being on the
3:20:20board is to um is to create more
3:20:24opportunities, more awareness of this
3:20:26organization. Um and uh it's outside of
3:20:30Blue Bearing. Um, it's it's my mission.
3:20:32So, that's Frontline Healing Foundation.
3:20:35>> Hell yeah. This is for you.
3:20:37>> You get to leave with the cards, too.
3:20:39We'll put these back in here for you as
3:20:40you uh don't cut yourself. All right.
3:20:42>> A dude.
3:20:44>> Are you familiar with MKC stuff?
3:20:46>> No. Is that my 10? Yeah, actually. Yep.
3:20:50>> The battle goat.
3:20:51>> I figured it would be You're kind of the
3:20:52goat. You know what I mean? You're the
3:20:53CAG goat or
3:20:54>> whatever.
3:20:56Sharpened by Luke. Quality control by
3:20:57Mac. Packaged by Cole. Thank you,
3:20:59gentlemen.
3:21:00I like the packaging. This is awesome.
3:21:03>> 550 cord.
3:21:04>> Mhm. Little bit of cordage there.
3:21:05>> Yep. Little sticker.
3:21:06>> MKC.
3:21:09>> This will go good with
3:21:10>> packaging matters. It really does. The
3:21:13unboxing experience, if you will,
3:21:15matters.
3:21:16>> I'm just The S. What is it? The AMSR.
3:21:19>> Oh, ASMR.
3:21:22>> Somebody younger. Answer that. Yeah,
3:21:23>> I know the acronym. I don't know what it
3:21:25means. Don't cut yourself.
3:21:26>> That is pretty.
3:21:27>> Yep. It's got the uh podcast logo uh
3:21:30lasered on the other side.
3:21:33There you go.
3:21:35>> Love it.
3:21:36>> Thank you. Thank you very much. And
3:21:38Montana Knife Company. Thank you so
3:21:39much. This is beautiful.
3:21:40>> For sure.
3:21:40>> It's a good blade.
3:21:41>> Well, thank you for uh thank you for
3:21:43making the trip out, man. And and
3:21:44honestly, thank you for uh bearing the
3:21:48burden of the service that you did for
3:21:51doing the things that you did. It's uh
3:21:56hard to describe. It's I'm I can only
3:21:59say that I have an understanding of it
3:22:00because I was proximal to that type of
3:22:02stuff for a little bit. But dude, you
3:22:04took the limited amount of [ __ ] that I
3:22:06did and and put it into a different
3:22:08sporting event.
3:22:09>> You know, one thing you're really good
3:22:10at, which is I think a superpower, man,
3:22:13is is I I understand everything you're
3:22:15saying, but I'm proud of your service,
3:22:17man. I'm not saying you're not proud of
3:22:18my service,
3:22:19>> but the self there's a bit of
3:22:20self-deprecation.
3:22:21>> There's also a bit of honesty in there
3:22:22as well. It's uh I mean I try to be
3:22:25honest about what I did and I didn't do
3:22:27I spent the minimum amount of time at
3:22:28development group not because I didn't
3:22:30want to stay there longer. I got hurt
3:22:32and the leadership specifically the E9
3:22:34at the time was being a dick about it.
3:22:36So we had a meeting in his office and I
3:22:38used some words that would have caused
3:22:40me to do burpees and in a rock paper
3:22:43rank organization
3:22:44>> that doesn't work [laughter] rank.
3:22:46That's the best game ever.
3:22:48>> Yeah.
3:22:48>> No, but my but my point is is that right
3:22:50back at you, man. Like I I do appreciate
3:22:52everything you just said.
3:22:54>> It's not lost on me. It's why I'm doing
3:22:56what I'm doing using and doing something
3:22:58with that service. But this is this is
3:23:01how I continue to serve though.
3:23:02>> Yeah.
3:23:03>> And I think we remind each other in
3:23:05these conversations and anyone listening
3:23:07like this isn't about us or our ego. And
3:23:10that's very clear with how you carry
3:23:12yourself. And I love that, man. And I uh
3:23:15I wish there was uh well I don't wish
3:23:17anything. I I I'm I'm
3:23:19keeping myself anchored in that that
3:23:22humility uh every day as well. Yeah,
3:23:26it's important, man. I I I legitimately
3:23:28want the best for everybody. I want
3:23:30people to accomplish what it is that
3:23:32their goals are. I want them to live
3:23:35in a peaceful and prosperous world. And
3:23:38I know that the realities of what it
3:23:39takes to do that. And I'm glad that
3:23:41there's people who are willing to uh go
3:23:42do the things that are necessary to
3:23:44allow that space for others.
3:23:46>> Amen.
3:23:46>> Yeah, man.
3:23:47>> Well, thank you for letting me uh spend
3:23:48the time with you.
3:23:49>> Of course. And tomorrow's going to be
3:23:50awesome, too. Today's just the first
3:23:52day.
3:23:52>> Absolutely.
3:23:53>> Hell yeah.

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