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WE scandal: Finance Minister Bill Morneau testifies before House committee | FULL — Transcript

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0:00i traveled with my family to ecuador to
0:02see
0:03and participate in wee's humanitarian
0:05work there
0:06in recent days our family has conducted
0:09a review
0:10of our personal records and we found
0:12documentation to confirm our payment of
0:15expenses for these two trips
0:16including flight and personal hotel
0:19costs of
0:20approximately fifty two thousand dollars
0:23however we were unable to locate
0:25receipts for
0:26any expenses related to we programming
0:29including accommodation
0:30this was to my surprise yesterday
0:34i asked my assistant to reach out to the
0:37wii
0:37organization regarding these trips and
0:40for them to provide me with the amount
0:42of total expenses incurred
0:44today i wrote a check in payment of
0:47forty one thousand dollars three hundred
0:49and sixty six
0:50i expected and always had intended to
0:53pay the full cost of these trips
0:55and it was my responsibility to make
0:57sure that was done
0:59not doing so even unknowingly is not
1:01appropriate
1:02i want to apologize for this error on my
1:05part
1:06my practice has always been to
1:08personally pay for expenses incurred in
1:11my role as finance minister
1:13whenever i've believed there to be any
1:14perception of potential personal benefit
1:18the error this time even though i was
1:20not traveling in my role as minister
1:22should not have happened i can also
1:25confirm
1:26that my family made two significant
1:28donations to the wii organization
1:31each for fifty thousand dollars my wife
1:34made one
1:34in april 2018 to support students
1:38in canada and another one in june of
1:41this year
1:41to support covet 19 relief in kenya
1:45and in canada the work that
1:48we and organizations like them do is
1:51important to me
1:53for over a decade my family has been
1:54passionate about education efforts in
1:57africa
1:58and in canada after our family sponsored
2:01grace to come to canada for her
2:02education
2:03and before i ran for office our family
2:06led the development of a girls
2:08school in kokuma refugee camp in kenya
2:12and over the last three years our family
2:14has personally committed
2:16over a million dollars to help refugee
2:18students from kenya
2:19continue their education here in canada
2:22as i've stated previously i participated
2:25in deliberations on the canada
2:27student service grant program i do not
2:30believe i had a conflict
2:32although i fully recognize that there
2:35are legitimate questions about the
2:37perception
2:38of a conflict in hindsight i should have
2:41recused myself
2:42from discussions involving the we
2:44organization and i will do so in the
2:46future
2:48most of all i regret that not recusing
2:51myself
2:51has delayed this important support for
2:53young canadians
2:55again i want to apologize for
2:58any mistakes i've made in this situation
3:01i'm sorry that they've occurred
3:25a little interpretation thing that looks
3:27like a globe down there to french when
3:28you're speaking french
3:29because both languages come through at
3:31the same level
3:33we love to hear your voice but we want
3:34to hear what it says in in the other
3:36language
3:37okay excuse
3:41come i'm sorry
3:44lady
4:07in hindsight
4:29i'm very sorry earlier today i formally
4:33asked
4:33the ethics commissioner to review this
4:35information uh there's an excuse
4:41excuse me earlier today i
4:44formally asked the ethics commissioner
4:46to review this information
4:47as part of his examination in order to
4:50provide this committee with an
4:52understanding of my role in the
4:54development and administration of the
4:56canada student service grant
4:58i'd like to provide you with a timeline
5:00of events
5:01since early march our government has
5:04been working to roll out canada's
5:06largest peacetime investment in doing so
5:09at a speed and a scale to meet the
5:11rapidly evolving nature
5:13of this crisis we've worked to deliver a
5:16comprehensive set of over
5:1870 different measures that are
5:19delivering targeted support
5:21to meet the needs of millions of
5:23canadians
5:35programming
6:18the aboriginal indigenous communities
6:20and others
6:22i would like to take the committee in
6:24detail through how this particular
6:26decision was approached by myself
6:28my office and officials to the best of
6:30my knowledge
6:32in early april shortly after we'd
6:34finished rolling out a broad range of
6:36supports
6:37including the canada emergency response
6:39benefit the serb
6:40our government began to think about the
6:42next set of challenges that lay ahead
6:44for canadians
6:45our government recognized that
6:47post-secondary students were
6:49about to complete their school year
6:51would be needing opportunities over the
6:53course of the summer
6:54opportunities that would help them pay
6:56for tuition and living expenses during
6:58the school year
6:59but also opportunities for invaluable
7:02skill building experiences
7:04this pandemic hit just while they were
7:06beginning their lives
7:08my colleagues and i knew that we had to
7:10do something to make sure
7:11their dreams weren't derailed and that
7:14they could continue to pursue their
7:15education
7:17most of all canada is in the midst of a
7:20national crisis
7:21and our government recognized that
7:23students could play an important role in
7:25supporting canada's
7:27extraordinary response to this pandemic
7:30on the evening of april 5th i had a call
7:33with the prime minister
7:34to discuss these and other issues we
7:37identified the need to consider measures
7:39to support students
7:41and discussed how the canada service
7:42corps and canada summer jobs program
7:45were areas of possible policy work to
7:47address this need
7:49i spent that night thinking in detail
7:52about this issue
7:53the next morning i tasked my officials
7:56and my ministerial team
7:57to begin engaging across government and
8:00brainstorm different options
8:02to support students my office and
8:05department of finance officials
8:07began working with other government
8:08departments departments to develop these
8:11ideas
8:12and to reach out to youth organizations
8:14in order to get
8:15a better sense of the challenges that
8:17the young people they serve
8:19were facing on april 7th
8:22the we organization was one of at least
8:25a dozen
8:25organizations that were contacted as
8:28part of this engagement effort
8:30in the days following my office's
8:32initial conversation with we
8:35the organization shared a proposal on
8:37social entrepreneurship
8:39which they had been discussing with
8:40other offices the we organization had
8:43sent this proposal to me
8:45but i didn't review or respond to the
8:47proposal at that time
8:50on april 8th and 9th i had my initial
8:53briefing
8:54on this potential streams of support for
8:57young people
8:58including a potential grant program for
9:01students looking to gain experience over
9:03the summer
9:48um
9:59and have a continuity of
10:03as follow-up of a briefing on april 18th
10:06officials raised that a partnership with
10:09the private sector
10:10or not-for-profit sector may be
10:12necessary in order to successfully
10:14administer such a program
10:16officials raised we charity among other
10:19organizations
10:20as an example of groups that were
10:22already doing
10:24similar work this was the first time
10:26that i've been involved
10:27in any discussion related to weed
10:29charity and what would become the canada
10:31student service grant
10:34as part of my briefing materials my
10:35officials appended a copy of wii's
10:38social entrepreneurship proposal
10:40indicating that other departments had
10:42begun engaging
10:43on the file i understand that in the
10:46following days we reached out to my
10:49office
10:49regarding their initial discussions with
10:51employment and social development canada
10:53and shared a second proposal my office
10:56continued discussions with we charity
10:59about how different types of student
11:00programming could be administered
11:03on april 21st i verbally approved my
11:06department's recommendations
11:08on the broad parameters of the canada
11:10student service grant
11:12including the potential involvement of a
11:13third party
11:15to be clear no third party such as we
11:18was chosen or directed within this
11:21approval
11:22from that point onwards employment and
11:24social development canada took the lead
11:26including the public service
11:28announcement that we charity be brought
11:30on as an administrator
11:32with that said as minister of finance
11:35i'm responsible for all funding provided
11:38under the public health
11:39event of national concern payments act
11:42as such
11:43it's important that finance officials
11:45track every dollar
11:46authorized to ensure that they're
11:48allocated appropriately
11:50i would expect that the department and
11:52my office would remain engaged in the
11:54design of the program
11:56in collaboration with employment and
11:57social development canada
11:59the privy council and the prime
12:01minister's office
12:02for complete transparency i note that on
12:05sunday april 26th
12:07i spoke with craig kielburger i know
12:09that we would have broadly discussed the
12:11impact of the covid19 pandemic
12:14he did not raise the canada student
12:16service grant nor did i
12:19on may 5th minister chagar presented
12:22her initial proposal for canada's
12:24student service grant
12:25including we charity as the preferred
12:27administrator at the covet 19
12:29cabinet committee i was not in
12:32attendance
12:32and did not discuss the proposal with
12:35officials or cabinet colleagues
12:37prior to it being presented i was
12:39briefed on the outcome of that meeting
12:41two days later on may 7th noting that
12:44the proposal would then be moving to be
12:46discussed
12:47at full cabinet the final decision on
12:50the canada student service grant was
12:52presented to full cabinet on may 22nd
12:55as i've said i should not have
12:57participated in that discussion and i
12:59regret that i did not recuse myself
13:01at that time i provided approval
13:04on the final revised funding decision
13:06for the program on june 3rd
13:08and that was my last direct engagement
13:10with the program's development
13:13i regret that my not recusing myself has
13:16been a reason that students
13:17have not been able to get the support on
13:19a timely basis
13:41i know that canadians are counting on us
13:43and there's still much more to do
13:45so thank you mr chair and i welcome the
13:48questions of you and the committee
13:51thank you very much uh mr minister for
13:54uh a very uh
13:55thorough uh explanation in terms of
13:58your involvement we'll now go to uh
14:02uh questions in the first round six
14:04minutes and we will go to our about uh
14:0653 minute 55 minutes of
14:09of of questions uh the lineup is uh mr
14:13polyam first
14:14uh then ms katrakas uh then mr forte
14:18and then mr angus uh mr
14:21polyam you're on deck sir
14:25do you expect us to believe that it is a
14:28mere
14:29con coincidence
14:32that you repaid over forty thousand
14:36dollars of expenses
14:37associated with your travel on a wii
14:41charity trip that you just repaid it
14:44today
14:44on the same day you were expected to
14:47testify
14:48under oath about it is that just a
14:50coincidence minister
14:53mr thank you thank you for the question
14:56uh
14:58i think what i want to make sure that i
15:00communicate is
15:01this was a mistake on my behalf i'm
15:03responsible
15:04for any expenses that i incur
15:08on trips being paid for this was an
15:11expense that i was
15:12unaware of that i did not know had not
15:15been paid
15:16and when i found that out one over the
15:19clock dollar
15:20expense you didn't know about a 41 000
15:23expense
15:24how is that even possible
15:27uh mr minister again mr chair
15:31um i i just have to say that uh in
15:34review of our records
15:35i uh understood that there was no charge
15:38for these
15:39uh travel expense or these expenses at
15:41the uh at the wii facilities
15:43and once i found that out i endeavored
15:46to repay that
15:47and of course it was a mistake on my
15:49part which i take full responsibility
15:51for
15:52the average canadian living in red deer
15:55or halifax that goes on a trip
15:58would notice if there was a say a 400
16:03expense that they didn't pay maybe a
16:06hotel room
16:07for a couple of nights that never got
16:09charged them and they paid immediately
16:11but you're telling me that on this
16:13obviously very luxurious trip
16:16that 41 000 dollars of expenses
16:21happened right under your nose
16:24and you didn't know about it until it
16:26suddenly through an epiphany
16:28came to your attention the very day you
16:31were to testify
16:32in a parliamentary committee about it
16:34you expect us to believe that
16:40mr chair my is for me
16:44there's no one else to answer for you mr
16:46morneau you're the one
16:48sorry uh sorry i was uh muted mr
16:51minister yes you got the
16:53the floor uh as i said uh you know this
16:56was
16:57um a mistake on my behalf we
17:00uh immediately looked at our records
17:03we reviewed those records to find the
17:05flights and the hotel expenses that were
17:08paid
17:08and did not find any expenses that were
17:11charged to us
17:12for the time at the we facilities
17:15when we went through our records in
17:17detail and concluded that
17:20we realized my wife and i that we needed
17:23to have
17:24someone reach out to the we organization
17:26and did that in order to pay those
17:28expenses
17:28it is my mistake it is a mistake that i
17:31regret
17:32i apologize for that and um as i said
17:35i will definitely work with the ethics
17:38commissioner including this issue
17:40to make sure it's fully understood and
17:42accounted for
17:44do you realize that accepting
17:48originally accepting these free benefits
17:51associated with your trip
17:53was strictly illegal under the contra
17:56conflict
17:57of interest act yes or no
18:00mr minister mr chair um
18:03we of course uh recognize that we are
18:06responsible
18:07for our own expenses that is my
18:09responsibility
18:10uh it was something i was unaware of and
18:13so that
18:14do you realize it was unaware do you
18:16realize now that it was illegal
18:19mr minister that uh those expenses which
18:23i was unaware of were uh
18:25appropriately my expenses and that's why
18:26we've repaid you you realize though that
18:28it was illegal
18:29you are as a minister strictly forbidden
18:31from accepting any form of sponsored
18:33travel
18:35under the contract of inter conflict of
18:36interest act
18:38i'm asking you do you realize that the
18:41act makes it
18:42illegal for you to have accepted these
18:44expenses
18:45paid for by we in the in the first place
18:48was do you realize
18:50that that was illegal yes or no uh mr
18:53minister
18:54you were the floor thank you mr chair
18:57mr chair as i've said i looked back in a
19:00detailed fashion over my records
19:02i found that this uh that we received no
19:05expenses notice for these expenses as
19:08soon as we found that out we
19:10uh endeavored to uh make sure those
19:12payments uh were
19:13were made and uh it's a mistake
19:16i uh i will and uh all right
19:20thank you very much um
19:23did you in the month of august 2019
19:29announce a grant for a wee charity for
19:32three million dollars
19:33in the same month that your daughter
19:36accepted a job from that organization
19:40yes or no mr minister mr chair
19:44i think um it's important to know that
19:46that
19:47program which i did announced was
19:50developed and delivered by employment
19:52and social development canada
19:54as the person who was responsible for
19:57that uh organization in the writing i
19:59did announce that program
20:01so you announced you announced a three
20:03million dollar grant
20:05to an organization that had just hired
20:08your daughter
20:09the very same month true statement or
20:12false statement
20:17thank you i want to be very clear that
20:20this is a program that was developed
20:23true or false delivered by the
20:24employment
20:25social development canada i announced it
20:28on behalf of our government but was
20:32not involved in the development of that
20:33program your daughter accepted a
20:35a position with that organization
20:38here last question so in the same month
20:41as your daughter
20:42accepted a position with the
20:43organization you announced a three
20:46million dollar grant
20:48to that organization is that are you you
20:51can just tell me if i'm wrong
20:52am i wrong mr chair i'm
20:56i'm obviously very proud of the fact
20:58that grace uh
20:59took on a co-op job at the wii
21:02organization
21:02i'm proud of the fact that she of her
21:04own accord went out and got a
21:07first job in an administrative capacity
21:10and
21:10obviously my role as a minister is
21:13separate and distinct from that
21:15i did deliver an announcement
21:18but i was not involved in the
21:19development or the understanding of that
21:22program
21:22okay thank you uh thank you both we'll
21:25go to
21:26ms kutrakis followed by mr forte
21:30ms kotrakus thank you mr chair and thank
21:32you minister morneau for
21:34appearing before the finance committee
21:36once again this afternoon
21:39i truly appreciate the candor and your
21:42testimony and
21:44for all the work that you and your
21:46family
21:47and our civil servants and the
21:49department of finance
21:51do for all canadians especially during
21:53this difficult time
21:55i have a few questions so in the
21:57interest of time i will ask them all
21:59and leave it with you minister to
22:01formulate your response
22:04how many new programs have you and your
22:06department rolled out in the past 100
22:08days or so
22:10what is the approximate value of these
22:12programs
22:13roughly how many canadians and canadian
22:16businesses and non-profit organizations
22:19have they helped from these programs
22:22does this compare to anything remotely
22:24similar
22:25to what we've done since the full
22:27mobilization of canada's economy
22:29and society during the second world war
22:32eighty years ago
22:34would it also be fair to say that if we
22:36did not introduce these programs
22:38there would be a lot of personal
22:40suffering and hardship
22:42would it also be fair to say that our
22:44economy would be in a
22:46serious recession or depression if the
22:49government hadn't acted as quickly and
22:51decisively as
22:52it did and finally as a financial person
22:56myself
22:58i would say that our success rate has
23:00been remarkably high
23:02and that the risk reward profile is
23:04extremely positive
23:06the only way to achieve anything is to
23:09take risks
23:10to avoid all risks of failure and make
23:13mistakes
23:14during as well would mean doing nothing
23:17and accepting all the personal hardships
23:19uh
23:20imposed on innocent canadians that would
23:23result
23:24do you agree with my comments
23:27mr minister i hope you depend on your
23:29hand because i could hardly keep up and
23:31i had one
23:32go ahead mr minister dancer thank you i
23:35i did have a pen
23:37i think i need to start by acknowledging
23:40that
23:40uh that i did make a mistake with
23:42respect
23:43to the uh the lack of
23:46decision to recuse myself of the
23:49decision around the we organization
23:51and i think i also need to acknowledge
23:54that not
23:55every single thing that our government
23:57has done over the course of the last few
23:59months
24:00was perfect we have been as was just
24:03mentioned
24:03working during a time of of crisis in a
24:06pandemic
24:07a time like none of us have ever faced
24:09before so
24:11the answer to the the last question uh
24:14is
24:14quite clear we knew we needed to move
24:17at speed and with scale to support
24:20canadians
24:21we knew that we needed to do our very
24:23best analysis
24:24on what the right policy would be and
24:27how to best
24:28get that support out to canadians we
24:30also knew
24:31that as we moved forward we would almost
24:34certainly
24:35have to fix things and improve things as
24:37we went along and that was the
24:38approach that we took i think that the
24:41response that we've
24:43had as a country which in answer to the
24:46direct
24:46question you know more than 70 programs
24:49over 200 billion dollars of direct
24:51support to canadians
24:52has put us in a much better situation
24:55than we would have been in had we not
24:57taken that approach it's delivered for
24:59individuals and for families it's
25:02protected our economy for today and
25:04and for the future and the risks of not
25:06doing so would have been
25:08dramatically greater for individuals and
25:10for families struggling to get by
25:12but for our long-term future and our
25:14opportunities so
25:16i do recognize that there is there's
25:18more that we need to do
25:19but this is an unprecedented time we are
25:22going to continue to
25:23consider the needs of canadians first uh
25:26deliver the kind of support required
25:28and uh improve things as we go along and
25:31yes
25:32we will make mistakes uh we will try not
25:34to make mistakes of course that's never
25:36our intent but we will uh we will
25:39rectify those mistakes
25:40as we think about the next steps and
25:42this pandemic's not over
25:43we do know there's there's more work to
25:45be done and we need to keep
25:47uh our focus on that and on canadians
25:51and do i have time for one more mr chair
25:54you have uh
25:56a minute or two minutes left okay thank
25:58you
25:59um what were your main goals when
26:01developing programs and policies to
26:04respond to the crises
26:05we have heard from other witnesses about
26:07rapid response simplicity
26:09largely and large-scale support i know
26:12that you've mentioned it time and time
26:13again but i think
26:14it's worth mentioning once again uh
26:17never to lose sight
26:19the pandemic uh the crisis that was
26:22not only facing canadians but globally
26:26so what were your main goals when
26:29developing these programs and policies
26:31minister morneau
26:34well again uh thank you for that
26:36question
26:38our main goals at the beginning of the
26:39pandemic are are
26:41very consistent with our goals now we
26:43recognize that this pandemic has had
26:46enormous impacts on on canadians across
26:49the country
26:50on family's ability to support
26:52themselves and also on
26:54future opportunities so we've been
26:55looking at how we can support people
26:57through this
26:58the serb benefit our our first and most
27:01important
27:02measure at the outset was recognizing
27:04how many people
27:05were going to be off work without enough
27:07money to pay for groceries or rent
27:10and we needed to get support to them
27:11rapidly the wage subsidy was about
27:14trying to make sure people could
27:16keep their job over the long term
27:18because we know how important
27:20that is for them but also for our
27:22economy
27:23programs like uh what we put together
27:25for
27:26students were recognizing that we were
27:28going to have hundreds of thousands of
27:30students
27:31without the ability to get a job this
27:33summer and we needed to think about how
27:35we could support them because
27:36they are by definition our future we
27:39need to make sure they can
27:40get back to their studies so that has
27:42been that's been our focus
27:45from from day one and it will continue
27:47to be our focus
27:49getting through this crisis requires us
27:50all to work together it's a health
27:52crisis
27:53and an economic crisis so we need to
27:55think about those two things in tandem
27:57but supporting people has always been
27:59central to what our government's been
28:01after
28:02and central to what i've been focused on
28:03during this time okay
28:05uh thank you we'll have to end it uh
28:06there uh mr forte
28:08followed by mr angus mr forte
28:13mr forte
28:19[Music]
28:26my screen was frozen oh
28:42um
29:19[Music]
29:48apologizing simply apologizing that
29:50you're going to be able to
29:52escape the fury of this um
29:57this matter
30:00uh mr chair yeah go ahead mr uh
30:03my minister merci say
30:10this is a very important question
30:17excuse me
30:35foreign
31:02the delivery
31:43the information
31:59did you think about it
32:03for the service public to consider come
32:05on
32:07public services
32:26uh
32:40is
32:54why didn't
33:22um
33:54uh between the two entities
34:17excuse me
34:23[Music]
34:32public
34:46uh
35:00is
35:08of a report on due diligence
35:28okay thank you uh
35:31thank you both uh mr angus for six
35:34minutes and then followed by uh
35:36uh mr cooper for five uh charlie you're
35:39up thank you so much mr chair
35:41uh mr minister um so the discussions
35:45with we began
35:46in year officials on april 7th
35:49um leading up to the prime minister's
35:52announcement
35:53uh were there any other proposals
35:56brought
35:57forward in that time by any other group
35:59other than we
36:04uh mr chair first of all you know thank
36:07you for the question
36:09i elaborated on the uh the timeline
36:12in the prepared remarks uh i was not
36:17i was not involved directly in any of
36:19those
36:20proposals being received or any
36:23any of those direct discussions with
36:25other organizations uh i do know
36:27that that process went through the
36:29public services
36:30sorry could you give us the names of any
36:32other organizations because
36:34the question we're dealing with was
36:36whether a group that's very close to you
36:38and your family and very close to the
36:40prime minister's family
36:42was given the inside track so we know
36:43that you met with craig you talked with
36:45craig hewlberg and now you say didn't
36:46discuss this but
36:47the die had been set we know that your
36:49your your finance officials had reached
36:51out to rachel wernick
36:52uh to tell her to talk to we we know
36:54that there had been at least two weeks
36:56of discussing between the first proposal
36:58and the second proposal
37:00so was were there other groups that were
37:03invited at that time to bring forward
37:05proposals will you give us the names of
37:07any
37:08that may have been involved
37:11uh minister go ahead i am aware that
37:15there were
37:16consultations with a number of groups
37:18that provide
37:19service for youth i'm not aware of each
37:22one of those names that was never
37:23presented to me
37:27i'm certain mr chair that we can uh
37:30provide an awareness of the
37:32of the organizations that were consulted
37:34with during the course of these uh
37:36this period okay thank you because
37:39minister chagger
37:40said that the idea came from rachel
37:43wernick
37:44the civil servant rachel wernick told us
37:47that she learned about this when
37:48everyone else learned about it and she
37:50was directly contacted by your staff
37:53my concern here mr morneau is if you
37:55were being the pack mule for the
37:57kielburgers to get this proposal through
37:59the fact that you refuse to recuse
38:01yourself is very very
38:03damning it it really raises questions
38:06here
38:07why did you refuse to recuse yourself
38:10uh mr minister well thank you uh
38:14to be to be clear we were we were in a
38:17position where we were trying to
38:18determine uh ways that we could deliver
38:21on behalf of students
38:23that was the goal here the idea was to
38:26find
38:27charlie the minister the minister has uh
38:30relatively equal time here allow him to
38:32answer first
38:33go ahead mr minister that was our
38:36overriding goal
38:38we knew that it was important to figure
38:40out a way to
38:41engage with students to help them to get
38:43back to school
38:44that was my overriding concern i
38:48uh given you know the the legitimate
38:51perception of of
38:52a conflict around my uh involvement
38:55previously i have said that in hindsight
38:58i i should have recused myself
39:00and okay that was a mistake on my part
39:03have you read the conflict of interest
39:05act
39:08mr minister uh mr chair i believe when i
39:12first came into office i would have had
39:14access to all of those uh those acts so
39:17you're not familiar with it the fact
39:19that you just remembered that we paid
39:22forty one thousand dollars for you to do
39:24travel are you not aware that under the
39:27conflict
39:28of interest acts sections 11 section 12
39:30section 15 of the code
39:33are explicit and it's also explicit
39:36about the
39:37the ministers are not to be getting paid
39:40travel so if you haven't really if you
39:43don't really remember the conflict of
39:44interest act you remember the agga khan
39:47ruling by the ethics commissioner
39:49because it seems that he made direct
39:51rulings about a situation that you are
39:52now
39:53in isn't there someone in your office
39:56who would
39:56tell you come on minister these are the
39:59these are the rules these
40:00this is the law of the land it applies
40:03to you as well
40:06go ahead mr minister mr chair um
40:10it is it is a mistake on my part not to
40:13have
40:13paid expenses as i've uh said i did not
40:17know that those expenses were not paid i
40:19did not
40:20have any awareness of that but over the
40:23course of the last uh
40:24short while i've reviewed my records in
40:26detail
40:27and uh given that uh serious oversight i
40:31have
40:31made sure that that uh that has been
40:33rectified but i
40:35i recognized that it was a mistake and i
40:37i take responsibility for that
40:39uh charlie before you before you start
40:41again can you hold your microphone a
40:44little closer and don't be
40:46rubbing at the the translators are
40:49having difficulty
40:50go ahead i'll give you the time back
40:53thank you well i guess the issue here
40:56is that we paid for your travel
40:59that has the apparent uh perception
41:02of attempting to buy political influence
41:04the fact that you're talking with craig
41:06kielburger
41:06you're talking with we i'm not sure
41:08they're registered to lobby they're
41:10hiring your daughter
41:11you're not thinking that there's a
41:12problem here but they're paying for
41:14influence i think that that's really
41:17really concerning that you didn't seem
41:18to think that that was a problem so i'd
41:20like to
41:20to end on the question with we
41:24you signed a contribution agreement with
41:26a real estate holding company
41:29how in god's name is that a credible
41:33decision by the government of canada
41:34to funnel nearly a billion dollars to a
41:37group that's very close to you and your
41:38family
41:39it's very close to the prime minister
41:41and his family
41:42a group that had gone through no uh
41:45there was
41:45no public tender here and they come up
41:48with a real estate holding company and
41:50you file the money through them
41:51what were you thinking uh mr minister uh
41:55final answer this round
41:58thank you well to start with as i've
42:01said
42:02um i i certainly uh was
42:05in error not uh not paying expenses i
42:08didn't know about those expenses being
42:10paid in my behalf but
42:11uh that was an error and um i
42:15i have owned up for that error i
42:18know that i know that uh the uh
42:22the government uh decision around
42:25uh the administration this program was
42:28taken
42:28after the appropriate due diligence by
42:31the public service
42:32i don't know of which uh organization
42:36in the uh in the in the we
42:40decision was the organization that was
42:43given to that contract that's not
42:45something that was brought
42:46to my attention uh of course uh we
42:49expected
42:50company and you didn't double check that
42:52where is the due diligence minister
42:55as i've said uh mr chair the
42:58the public service took a look at how we
43:00could best deliver this program
43:02and how it could be best administered
43:05and that recommendation was the one that
43:06we looked at
43:08in order to deliver on behalf of
43:09students okay
43:11we'll end that round there but uh a look
43:13from from my perspective there is
43:16uh some confusion during this
43:19round uh you've been asked
43:23why uh as a minister you didn't sign
43:26you didn't call for tenders i know this
43:29was a contribution agreement
43:31uh the implication is
43:34that you were the minister responsible
43:37so i got to ask you two questions
43:39who was the minister responsible in
43:41terms of this agreement with we
43:43and who was the minister that signed the
43:46agreement at the end of the day
43:49mr miller thank you mr chair i i was not
43:53the minister responsible
43:54as uh as i outlined in my prepared
43:57remarks
43:57that uh that was minister chagar and
44:01uh as uh as to your second question on
44:04who signed the document
44:06i'm actually not aware of that my
44:08assumption would be it would be
44:09minister chagar but i know that
44:11employment and social development canada
44:13worked on this program and that was the
44:16arm of the public service that made the
44:18recommendation
44:19after their work okay uh thank you for
44:22that uh then uh
44:23next to answer questions we'll start off
44:25with mr cooper mr fragascottis mr
44:27pauliev and miss
44:28zerowitz uh mr cooper five minutes great
44:31thank you mr chair
44:32uh thank you minister for being here i
44:34want to
44:35ask uh you to explain in further detail
44:39these 41 000 of
44:42hidden expenses you have characterized
44:46these expenses as programming what do
44:48you mean by that
44:51well thank you when uh
44:54when we took a look at our personal
44:57records we found
44:59expenses that we'd paid for flights and
45:01for personal hotel costs
45:03but we didn't find any expenses from the
45:06the actual we
45:06sites that we went to that my
45:10chances they would have they would have
45:12been any dining
45:14or just explain what those expenses were
45:19thank you mr minister go ahead sorry
45:22those expenses would have been
45:23for uh anything incurred at the we
45:26facilities
45:27so so give me an example
45:30i have not seen the line by line but i
45:33would assume that they would be for
45:35accommodation for uh going to the
45:38we were when i was uh there in
45:41uh ecuador we were helping to build a
45:43school so it would have been getting us
45:45to the school
45:46where we were doing that perhaps the
45:48materials to build that school
45:51and those were i imagine
45:54the the things that uh that were
45:57included in those expenses along with
45:59presumably
46:00uh meals meals so whining and dining
46:04while you were
46:05in ecuador uh thank you for that
46:08um obviously uh it's interesting that
46:11you've just decided to do a detailed
46:12review now just before you came before
46:15our committee
46:16uh but i'll leave it at bad i want to
46:17now uh go on to
46:20the timeline here uh on april 18th you
46:24said that you were briefed by
46:26your officials uh at that time the we
46:29proposal was brought to your attention
46:32were any other
46:33proposals brought to your attention or
46:34were any other organizations mentioned
46:37at that meeting
46:41thank you i i believe at that meeting i
46:45was briefed on the
46:47the overall nature of the potential
46:49canada student service grant
46:51as well as the possibility of using
46:54an outside for-profit or not-for-profit
46:58organization to administer the program
47:01based on the urgency of the program
47:03and that was uh that was the sum
47:07total of what we were trying to achieve
47:08i believe at that briefing
47:11and and were were any other proposals
47:14provided to you
47:16uh no proposals were provided proposals
47:20of any sort were provided to me okay
47:21well you said you reviewed the we
47:23proposal at that time or it was appended
47:26um sorry for clarification uh there was
47:30a
47:30a proposal appended that was for a
47:33different
47:33program okay so it was not for the
47:35administration of the canada
47:39a limited amount of time uh from
47:42the beginning of march to june 30th how
47:45many times have you had contact with
47:46anyone associated with the we
47:48organization
47:51um sorry the dates again were
47:54between march 1st and june 30th
47:58the um the only
48:01uh time that i have any uh
48:04recollection of communicating with
48:06anyone from the we organization was
48:08as i reported on sunday april 26th april
48:1126 and that was with craig kielburger
48:14yes and how often do you speak with
48:16craig kielberger
48:19craig hillberger is um obviously someone
48:23in my riding who
48:24runs a large organization so i've had
48:27exposure to him on
48:28on numerous occasions but i
48:31i don't have any particular regular
48:34communication
48:35were you surprised that he would have
48:36contacted you just four days after he
48:39had submitted
48:40a proposal he didn't contact me
48:44so for clarity i called him uh during
48:47that
48:48time period i was contacting business
48:51leaders
48:51labor leaders trying to make sure i
48:54understood the nature of the covet 19
48:57crisis
48:58and hearing the impacts on you know
49:00customers or on people
49:02that got served uh that that was an
49:05important part of my role
49:07it continues to be an important part of
49:08my role so that we can develop the kind
49:10of
49:10support necessary so just so you just no
49:13question mr cooper well
49:15okay since i only have the final
49:16question minister will you undertake to
49:18provide the committee with all
49:19communications
49:20uh that your office had uh concerning
49:23the pre-proposals that uh are at issue
49:26namely the
49:27april 9th the april 21st and april 22nd
49:31proposal as well as any communications
49:33you or your office had with
49:35anyone of the we organization uh i
49:38we will certainly cooperate with the
49:41committee that i think is important
49:42i think there's been a request for for
49:44documentation which we will certainly
49:46comply with
49:47thank you uh thank you both i believe uh
49:50that we request was
49:51made with uh miss warnick and uh as well
49:54so
49:55okay uh mr fragis goddess uh followed by
49:59uh mr
50:00pauliev go ahead thank you very thank
50:02you very much mr chair thanks for being
50:04here
50:04minister just to be clear minister
50:07mourinho
50:08you did not refuse to recuse yourself it
50:10was an
50:11oversight on your part correct
50:15i think it was a mistake on my part i um
50:18you know on reflection in hindsight i
50:21should have recused myself
50:23i i know that that would have been a
50:26a better course of action for us to to
50:28deal with what we saw as a very
50:30important
50:31uh challenge facing students
50:34i do have to ask minister worked with
50:37you for five years know you to be an
50:39honorable person and
50:40a good man but i do have to ask as far
50:43as going
50:44forward the process around recusing
50:47one's self
50:48you've pledged to do so in the future
50:50but is it a is it a simple process at
50:53the cabinet level
50:54to uh to do so
50:57well yes i i have recused myself
51:00on numerous occasions around cabinet uh
51:03when i've seen that there was
51:05any potential for conflict so that's
51:07been a course i've taken
51:09over the time in office and in this case
51:13you know my my daughter
51:16uh grace was you know working in a
51:19she was working in a an administrative
51:22role it was her starting job
51:24i didn't see that as a conflict you know
51:26in hindsight
51:28i i should have seen that people would
51:30would be concerned about that
51:31and so i i wish i had done differently
51:35i will certainly in future recuse myself
51:37from anything to do
51:38with with the we organization as a
51:41result
51:42of of that association thank you very
51:44much no it was a question relating
51:46largely to process and
51:48you've answered it i have a question
51:50also relating to uh
51:51to we on this decision why
51:54was we chosen specifically and
51:58not for example the working through the
52:01canada summer jobs program expanding
52:03that for example
52:04the canada student service corps for
52:07instance
52:08as another possibility what stood out
52:11about we
52:11in your mind
52:16i think it's important not to talk about
52:19we it's more about what we were trying
52:21to achieve so our goal was to find a way
52:24to
52:25to have a an approach to national
52:27service during a time of
52:29of national crisis we saw that there was
52:32a
52:32combination of the opportunity for
52:35students to be engaged in that
52:37and something that would enable students
52:39also to
52:40to be doing really meaningful work in a
52:43summer when so many jobs wouldn't be
52:45available
52:46and finally we thought that you know the
52:48idea that they could
52:49uh have some incentive was going to be
52:52important both to to make that happen
52:54but also to recognize that they weren't
52:56going to necessarily have money
52:58from jobs this summer because of the the
53:00pandemic so
53:01so that was the goal the the decision on
53:04how to administer it was
53:06uh very much taken uh in the course of
53:09employment social development canada's
53:11review of how to deliver it and when i
53:15as i understand it what they were trying
53:16to consider was the public service
53:18capable
53:19of delivering in a very short time
53:21period this program that would make a
53:22difference for
53:24students and they concluded that a
53:26better way to do it would be with
53:28an outside organization that had those
53:30capabilities already so that we could
53:32move
53:32quickly so that that was the that was
53:35the goal
53:36and that was the uh recommendation that
53:38came back to us
53:40which uh of course was satisfying our
53:42overall goal
53:43and it's very important to put this in
53:44the context of what we were facing at
53:46that time we were thinking about
53:48multiple programs to support you know
53:51different
53:51uh populations so we were thinking about
53:54people who were off work
53:56people who were you know maybe uh having
53:57more expenses like seniors
54:00we were starting to contemplate people
54:01with disabilities and the challenges
54:03they were facing
54:04but students were central to us because
54:06there's hundreds of thousands of them
54:08that wouldn't have jobs if we didn't
54:10find some sort of
54:11or wouldn't have opportunities if we
54:13didn't find some sort of way to
54:16uh to deal with that last question peter
54:19thank you very much mr chair with the
54:21last question and i've asked this before
54:23but since you're the minister of finance
54:25i do want to put it to you
54:27where do we go from here is is a program
54:31possible because i have young people in
54:34my constituency i have many
54:36not-for-profits and charities that were
54:37excited by the
54:39visions set out in the canada student
54:41service grant
54:42want to make a contribution
54:45organizations need volunteers and young
54:47people are ready to volunteer
54:50is it possible to come up with a program
54:52that allows for tuition support to be
54:54uh granted on the one hand for young
54:57people and
54:58for organizations to benefit by the
55:00presence of young people can we still
55:02get to the
55:03underlying goal of the of the canada
55:05student service grant delivered
55:06differently of course
55:09i i think it's very important to put
55:11this this program
55:13in context we we came up with
55:16approaches to help students that were
55:20multiple we had a nine billion dollar
55:23program overall which included support
55:25for
55:25people that were not going to be able to
55:28get jobs
55:29direct financial support it was tuition
55:32um
55:32reduction in in grants for tuition
55:35uh or increasing grants for tuition in
55:37the fall it was
55:39a reduction in interest costs or
55:41elimination of interest costs on debt
55:43so multiple things we were doing at the
55:45same time this was one
55:46we saw it as a very important way to
55:49engage
55:50and and improve uh our ability to deal
55:52with the pandemic
55:54so we're going to continue to try i
55:56think that you know unfortunately this
55:58is making it more difficult because the
56:00starting position
56:01was that the public service didn't have
56:03the ability to deliver with the same
56:05speed and that means that we are we are
56:08trying to figure out a way to do this
56:10but but it is difficult for sure we will
56:13continue to think
56:14though about how we can deliver okay
56:17we'll go to
56:17uh mr paliyev uh and then on to
56:21miss zerowitz uh mr polyam how much time
56:24do i have
56:25you got five minutes uh mr morneau can
56:28you please give me
56:30uh uh all of the uh the account of how
56:33many times you spoke about
56:35we charity with your staff or your
56:38officials
56:41uh i've tried to give a uh an
56:44understanding of the process
56:46and the uh the deliberations i i think
56:48you've heard from me in my prepared
56:50statements the
56:51just increasing how many times did you
56:54speak about we with your staff or your
56:56officials the number of times please
56:58uh i think what you will hear in in my
57:00preparedness i went through a number of
57:02of briefings and those were the the
57:04times where this was the
57:06uh discussion to recap where we are
57:11you and the prime minister gave 912
57:15million dollars to the real estate
57:17holding arm
57:18of a group that had paid the prime
57:20minister's family
57:22three hundred thousand dollars and gave
57:24your daughter a job
57:26and your family 41 000 in
57:29illegal travel expenses
57:33that's just what we know so far
57:36we know that this is illegal
57:39we know that you ought to have recused
57:41yourself under section
57:4321 of the conflict of interest act
57:46public office holders shall recuse
57:47himself
57:48from any discussion decision debate or
57:50vote on any matter in respect to which
57:52he or his
57:53he or she would be in a conflict of
57:56interest we also know
57:58that no public offshore of which you are
58:00one under section 11
58:02shall accept any gift or other advantage
58:04including from a trust
58:06that might reasonably be seen to be
58:08given
58:09to have been given to influence the
58:10public office holder
58:12in the exercise of an eff of an official
58:15power
58:16duty or function you have violated that
58:18section as well
58:20in accepting 41 000
58:23of secret travel expenses
58:27you've only admitted now that you did
58:29that
58:30the same day you're called to testify
58:32under oath in the matter
58:34over a year after the gifts
58:37were accepted you are a minister
58:41who has already been found guilty of
58:43violating the conflict of interest act
58:45when you failed to reveal the existence
58:48of your villa
58:49in france minister
58:53you have lost the moral authority to
58:55hold your office
58:57and it is the position of her majesty's
58:59loyal opposition that you resign
59:02will you resign uh mr minister the floor
59:05is yours
59:07uh mr chair and um
59:11to the questioner uh i want to just make
59:14very clear that
59:15there were in fact mistakes made here i
59:18have said
59:20quite clearly that in hindsight i should
59:23have recused myself
59:24from this decision when it came to
59:26cabinet
59:27i did not know that there were expenses
59:31that
59:31had not been charged to me in that
59:34travel
59:34and uh that worked sorry ministry mr
59:38mr pellier we're usually
59:41pretty sticky the other way in time so
59:43we'll be sticking this way
59:44today the minister has the floor for a
59:47little longer
59:48go ahead mr minister as i said i did not
59:51know
59:52that there were expenses that were not
59:53charged to me but i'm not making an
59:56excuse
59:56it was my mistake not to have taken
59:58responsibility to
1:00:00ensure that those expenses were paid and
1:00:03i found that out only with a thorough
1:00:06review of my records over the course of
1:00:07the last few days
1:00:09and that is absolutely a mistake on my
1:00:13behalf i've then turned around to
1:00:16reimburse sure which i know is important
1:00:18sure and i
1:00:19i will i will minister i
1:00:22will continue to to work on behalf of
1:00:26canadians i want to put
1:00:27this in context the the program that we
1:00:30were trying to deliver for students
1:00:32to get them engaged in volunteering we
1:00:35believe is
1:00:36is very important and that's important
1:00:38work that i will continue to do
1:00:40with my government over to mr peliap
1:00:44canadians will find it impossible to
1:00:46believe
1:00:48that this organization showered you with
1:00:5141
1:00:52000 worth of luxury
1:00:55and accommodations and that you didn't
1:00:58know about it
1:00:59that somehow you were enjoying all of
1:01:02these benefits and expenses paid for you
1:01:04while you were on an exotic vacation to
1:01:06ecuador
1:01:08and that somehow you didn't even know
1:01:10that the expenses occurred who did you
1:01:12think
1:01:13was paying for all of the wine
1:01:16and the food and the luxury travel that
1:01:19you were consuming did you think that it
1:01:21was just
1:01:22falling out of the sky minister who did
1:01:25you think was paying
1:01:27for these tens of thousands of dollars
1:01:29of luxurious
1:01:31expenses that you were enjoying
1:01:34where did you think it was coming from
1:01:36that's the last question we'll give the
1:01:38minister time to respond
1:01:40go ahead minister well thank you mr
1:01:42chair
1:01:44uh as i've said we we did go back
1:01:47and look at our records and found the
1:01:49the travel and hotel costs
1:01:52but didn't find any charges to us from
1:01:55the we facilities
1:01:56this uh this should have been something
1:01:59that uh
1:02:00that we we rectified sooner uh it was
1:02:03absolutely in error i in looking through
1:02:06my records was
1:02:07uh completely surprised at this
1:02:10situation
1:02:11and that's not an excuse that's just
1:02:13what happened so
1:02:15i uh mr chair can just say that again
1:02:18you know this was uh this was um an
1:02:21excuse and
1:02:22and uh that's no excuse rather and it's
1:02:24a mistake
1:02:25okay uh miss uh zerowitz uh and we will
1:02:28have
1:02:29uh we'll go to miss sirowitz uh and
1:02:32uh i will give miss uh goodro uh
1:02:36a couple of minute question and mr angus
1:02:39and then we'll have to end
1:02:42ms sirwitz okay thank you so much thank
1:02:44you minister for
1:02:45uh presenting today thank you for your
1:02:47remarks at the onset
1:02:49um the first thing i'd like to say is
1:02:5370 programs and over 200 billion dollars
1:02:56in direct support to canadians
1:02:58i know that during the time of march and
1:03:00april when davenport residents
1:03:02were super stressed they were enormously
1:03:04happy with the programs as they were
1:03:06being announced
1:03:07it gave them comfort that there was a
1:03:09government who's caring after them
1:03:11and was trying to help support them as
1:03:13we were going through an unprecedented
1:03:16pandemic that no one really knew how it
1:03:18was going to unfold
1:03:19so i want to say thank you for that i
1:03:22also want to say thank you for your
1:03:23apology
1:03:24um um i think for the both apologies one
1:03:27is
1:03:27from recusing from the cabinet decision
1:03:30and then also
1:03:31for the 41 000 payment i do have three
1:03:34key questions the first one is
1:03:38um can you make it clear to the
1:03:40committee was
1:03:41was there any direction from you your
1:03:44team
1:03:45or the financial sort of department
1:03:48to select or suggest we
1:03:52as the choice for the canada student
1:03:54service grant
1:03:57uh mr minister uh thank you
1:04:00and and uh you know thank you for your
1:04:03comments i think
1:04:04um it has been a a particularly
1:04:07challenging time and i'm
1:04:09i'm pleased to hear that you're
1:04:11receiving positive feedback from your
1:04:13constituents i i just want to
1:04:16acknowledge that we are still in a
1:04:17pandemic so these challenges will
1:04:19continue and we will continue to be
1:04:20thinking about how we support people
1:04:23the decision around the
1:04:28programs to support students were very
1:04:30important and those were decisions that
1:04:32were taken
1:04:34together with other departments they
1:04:36were working together on what the right
1:04:38approach was to deliver but the
1:04:41the final uh recommendation for
1:04:44how the program was to be administered
1:04:47came from employment and social
1:04:48development canada
1:04:50and that was uh in their role in
1:04:52thinking about how we could best deliver
1:04:54for students
1:04:54so so that is the approach it was not up
1:04:57to
1:04:57me or uh or my team to
1:05:01come up with those recommendations uh or
1:05:03even to do the
1:05:04the direct analysis on the capabilities
1:05:07but there was
1:05:08was there a direct suggestion from
1:05:09yourself or your team to actually
1:05:11suggest that we
1:05:12should be the the um the uh
1:05:16the the uh the choice uh for the canvas
1:05:18student service grant
1:05:21no my team would not have directed that
1:05:24and i certainly
1:05:25have no awareness no first-hand
1:05:27knowledge of of the capabilities of
1:05:30either the public service or the we
1:05:32organization to deliver that program
1:05:34okay my second question is there's a lot
1:05:36of concern around the the signing with
1:05:38the
1:05:38we charity foundation as opposed to we
1:05:41charity
1:05:42can you just be make it clear for the
1:05:44committee that it was
1:05:45the responsibility of minister chagar uh
1:05:48to actually um sign the final contracts
1:05:52and it wasn't with
1:05:53yourself or the the finance department
1:05:57uh well the your your assertion is
1:06:00correct
1:06:01it was not my responsibility to sign any
1:06:03of those agreements nor
1:06:05to consider which organization uh
1:06:08would be receiving those uh those
1:06:11contracts
1:06:12okay um julie uh just check your
1:06:15microphone and whether you're in the
1:06:16right language
1:06:17uh you're not coming through clearly to
1:06:18the translation booth just pull up your
1:06:20mic a little
1:06:21okay so i'm i'm definitely on english
1:06:23okay and my last question is
1:06:25it's around the 41 000 that you've paid
1:06:28back
1:06:29at um i believe today minister um
1:06:32i believe it was for two trips one was
1:06:34to kenya and one was to ecuador
1:06:36um oh can you just explain uh what the
1:06:39intention of the trip was and was the
1:06:41intention always to cover
1:06:43your own costs and the cost of your
1:06:45family going there
1:06:48well thank you and all i can tell you is
1:06:52that i was completely surprised
1:06:54that there were expenses that had not
1:06:56been charged to us on review
1:06:58it was always my intention our family's
1:07:00intention to pay for all
1:07:02expenses these were for two trips one
1:07:05trip
1:07:05of my wife and daughter to kenya to see
1:07:09schools that that were being built there
1:07:12and
1:07:12uh then subsequently to ecuador where
1:07:16uh we went as a family and were involved
1:07:18in
1:07:19in actually building schools the
1:07:22expenses
1:07:22uh were appropriately my expenses
1:07:26it was my mistake not to have ensured
1:07:28that they were paid
1:07:29uh i was unaware that they weren't
1:07:31charged to us and
1:07:33um having found that out i was uh
1:07:35obviously
1:07:36um felt that i'd made a mistake and i
1:07:39needed to immediately rectify the
1:07:41situation
1:07:42okay thank you
1:07:45uh thank you both uh we will go to
1:07:49uh miss uh goodro or you've got time for
1:07:52a two-minute question
1:07:55uh mr forte uh mr goudreau there you are
1:07:58go ahead
1:07:58emoji minutes and then two minutes to mr
1:08:00angus and we're done
1:08:04with it
1:08:36is
1:08:50because i just don't know what to say to
1:08:51my constituents when they ask me
1:08:53questions like that it's very important
1:09:01thank you two things uh yes
1:09:18uh
1:09:36[Music]
1:09:46um
1:10:10like should we say something about it
1:10:13and what do we do
1:10:28foreign
1:10:43[Music]
1:10:56is
1:10:59[Music]
1:11:10a time uh two minutes uh and i'll give
1:11:14we're a little over time uh mr minister
1:11:16but to balance it up i'll have to give
1:11:17mr angus two minutes as well uh charlie
1:11:20you're on
1:11:21thanks so much wayne easter my good
1:11:22friend and seat mate
1:11:24um mr minister
1:11:27um i'm glad that your colleague
1:11:30clarified that
1:11:31it's not it wasn't actually your
1:11:32department that was making the
1:11:35working out the details that was bartus
1:11:37chagger's office
1:11:38and yet we was talking to you and the
1:11:40prime minister
1:11:41begins talking to you in early april and
1:11:44you have the we report
1:11:45and you said that the report was
1:11:47circulating so
1:11:49who in the privy council had that report
1:11:51who in the prime minister's
1:11:53office had the proposal and had the
1:11:56prime minister seen it
1:11:59uh well thank you i think uh what's
1:12:02important to know here is that
1:12:04uh what you're talking about is a
1:12:06proposal
1:12:08for a different program that that
1:12:10apparently went to
1:12:12a number of ministers offices it came to
1:12:14me directly
1:12:15i didn't review it at the time i don't
1:12:18have any way
1:12:19of of knowing but i would be very
1:12:21surprised that that would ever go to the
1:12:23prime minister that would not normally
1:12:24be something that he would he would see
1:12:26the prime minister and you were talking
1:12:28about a program that
1:12:30i know that there was the original
1:12:31proposal but the second proposal
1:12:33is very very tied to we and
1:12:36they call you up mr morneau uh they
1:12:39reach out to you it's not your file it's
1:12:41miss
1:12:41shaggers but you are a friend of them uh
1:12:43they have paid
1:12:44forty one thousand dollars to you and
1:12:46your family to travel and it's not
1:12:48reported
1:12:49they've hired your daughter they've paid
1:12:50the trudeau family over 300
1:12:53000 uh at a time so they have enormous
1:12:56amount of influence and so this is the
1:12:58question you
1:12:59i you know i know you read the conflict
1:13:02of interest act when you first became
1:13:03minister
1:13:04and it's somewhere back in one of your
1:13:05files but you need to understand
1:13:07it's about buying political influence is
1:13:10about being there
1:13:11your friend that they contact your
1:13:13office and it's your officials that are
1:13:14dealing with them
1:13:15and so you're dealing with the prime
1:13:16minister and he's got the same idea that
1:13:18you have
1:13:19and boy that idea is just like we
1:13:22doesn't it occur to you mr morneau
1:13:24that you've been very influenced by this
1:13:26group and they've had the inside track
1:13:27from the get-go
1:13:29and your relationship with them is
1:13:30helping push that that you
1:13:32were the keel burgers pack mule pushing
1:13:35this through
1:13:36and now it's all blown up on you we'll
1:13:38we'll have to go to the minister and
1:13:39please clarify minister whether they
1:13:42called you
1:13:42or you called them because earlier you
1:13:45said
1:13:46you called mr kielberger over
1:13:49over programming i believe or curb or
1:13:51whatever it was
1:13:52go ahead uh so uh thank you mr chair i
1:13:57think
1:13:58so to be really clear here the
1:14:01the goal and and certainly in the
1:14:03discussions i had with the prime
1:14:04minister we were thinking about how we
1:14:06could
1:14:07support students so that was uh
1:14:10critically important we needed to come
1:14:11up with ways to make sure that we
1:14:13delivered support to students
1:14:15the the uh in the
1:14:19inference that we had any idea of
1:14:21exactly how
1:14:22that support would happen or even how it
1:14:25would be delivered
1:14:26is incorrect we were thinking about how
1:14:28we would support students
1:14:29and as we developed the policy then we
1:14:32we passed it to the public service to
1:14:34think about how
1:14:35that could be properly delivered and
1:14:38that was a critically important step
1:14:41in thinking about how we could get that
1:14:43support the
1:14:45proposal that was circulated from the we
1:14:48organization was
1:14:49was separate earlier on i certainly
1:14:53didn't
1:14:54have any uh awareness of that uh
1:14:57proposal when it came in
1:14:59and much later uh as i reported i did
1:15:02have a call with craig kielberger and
1:15:04that was just to understand generally
1:15:06how
1:15:06the covet 19 situation was impacting
1:15:10uh businesses and organizations across
1:15:12the country
1:15:13so you know our goal here is and remains
1:15:17to support students
1:15:18we we know that there was a mistake made
1:15:22in terms of of how we came through this
1:15:24decision-making process
1:15:26i should have recused myself the prime
1:15:28minister's also said that
1:15:30and we will we will continue to think
1:15:31about how we can best be supportive
1:15:34and um you know i want to just say that
1:15:37we need to move forward
1:15:38it is a time of pandemic and there will
1:15:40be more work for us to do
1:15:42okay uh minister uh thank you very much
1:15:44for your testimony and
1:15:46thank you point point of order mr chair
1:15:48uh
1:15:49what's your point order mr cooper uh
1:15:51thank you mr chair i would like to
1:15:53put forward a motion to be debated at a
1:15:56future
1:15:57meeting uh and the motion
1:16:00uh reads as follows that mr cooper can
1:16:04okay let's hear your motion first and
1:16:05then i'll release the minister go ahead
1:16:07okay uh whereas uh the minister
1:16:10of finance has accepted forty one
1:16:14thousand dollars
1:16:15in elite in illegal travel expenses and
1:16:20that
1:16:20the minister of finance is in flagrant
1:16:23breach
1:16:24of multiple sections of the conflict of
1:16:26interest act
1:16:27including but not limited to sections 6
1:16:3011 and 21 in addition
1:16:34to prior violations but the standing
1:16:37committee on finance hereby call on the
1:16:39minister to immediately resign
1:16:41so you were uh uh you're given the four
1:16:44to eight hour notice uh
1:16:45okay yes thank you for that uh that
1:16:48notice is
1:16:49uh is uh given uh mr marnell uh thank
1:16:52you for your uh
1:16:53appearing before the committee today and
1:16:55giving your uh statement
1:16:57uh and you're answering our questions
1:16:59and taking the
1:17:01extra time uh that uh normally happens
1:17:04when we have a minister before the uh
1:17:06before the committee so thank you very
1:17:07much uh with that
1:17:09uh so you're released minister okay
1:17:13we'll go to uh the finance uh
1:17:16official uh miss uh kovovich
1:17:20uh for uh 30 minutes uh if we could
1:17:24i don't know miss kovich hopefully your
1:17:27technology is working now and do you
1:17:28have an opening state where you're just
1:17:30going to questions
1:17:32ms kovacs uh thank you mr chair can you
1:17:35hear me
1:17:36yeah gotcha uh yes um i do have an
1:17:40opening statement if you would permit me
1:17:41to read it okay
1:17:42fire away all right um good afternoon
1:17:45committee members my name is michelle
1:17:47kovacevic and i am the assistant deputy
1:17:49minister for the federal provincial
1:17:51relations and social policy branch at
1:17:53finance canada
1:17:54um before i start i was made aware just
1:17:57as i was coming into the office
1:17:58that there may be an interest on behalf
1:18:01of the committee for me to stay longer
1:18:03than 30 minutes
1:18:04if that is still the interest in the
1:18:05committee i'm happy to do so
1:18:07i would like to provide you with context
1:18:09on my role in the lead up to the
1:18:11announcement by the prime minister and
1:18:12the canada student service grant
1:18:14and the context with respect to the
1:18:16ultimate selection of we charity as a
1:18:18third party administrator
1:18:20on april 6 during the prime minister's
1:18:22morning press conference
1:18:23he noted that more support for students
1:18:25would be coming soon
1:18:27that same day my team reached out to
1:18:29colleagues in employment and social
1:18:30development canada
1:18:31esdc to hear about options for
1:18:34supporting students
1:18:35my team and i also met with my
1:18:37minister's office to understand what was
1:18:39needed
1:18:40our timelines for developing the package
1:18:42were very condensed
1:18:44our work was informed by proposals and
1:18:46expertise in esdc
1:18:47as well as other departments the package
1:18:50announced on april 22nd by the prime
1:18:52minister
1:18:53included over nine billion dollars in
1:18:55support for students
1:18:56including the creation of the canada
1:18:58student service grant
1:18:59which at 900 million dollars represents
1:19:0210 percent of the overall student
1:19:03package that we developed
1:19:05today i will focus solely on the options
1:19:07that were explored to develop the canada
1:19:09student service grant
1:19:11the key objective for us was to mobilize
1:19:13students to help respond to the pandemic
1:19:15while also providing tuition support for
1:19:18their future studies
1:19:19a number of options were pursued
1:19:22including
1:19:23firstly a tuition credit or tuition
1:19:26waiver for students
1:19:27my team along with esdc explored
1:19:30delivering this through the canada
1:19:31student loan program
1:19:33directly via provinces and territories
1:19:35or by post-secondary education
1:19:37institutions fueling the federal
1:19:38government directly
1:19:40there were issues with respect to
1:19:41validating the identity and eligibility
1:19:44of recipients
1:19:45in addition to the actual capacity to
1:19:47deliver the program across the country
1:19:49none of these were considered to be
1:19:51ideal we further looked at scaling up
1:19:53existing volunteer programs through the
1:19:56canada service corps
1:19:57and taking it global its administrator
1:20:00this option was indeed supported
1:20:01and funding was provided to expand the
1:20:03number of micro grants for youth from
1:20:051800 to 15 000
1:20:07and to provide um stipends to
1:20:10participants
1:20:11however there was interest in and need
1:20:13for a much broader reach beyond 15
1:20:16000 service opportunities with health
1:20:19canada
1:20:19my team examined whether students could
1:20:22feel a critical need in contact tracing
1:20:24related to covid19
1:20:26including both volunteer options and
1:20:28direct federal hiring to support
1:20:30provincial and territorial efforts
1:20:32our teams also looked at using a temp
1:20:34agency to do hiring on our behalf
1:20:36none of these options were selected
1:20:38because a large number of volunteers had
1:20:40already been identified to do the work
1:20:41by the health portfolio
1:20:43and provinces and territories at least
1:20:45at that point in the
1:20:46in the pandemic were still quite
1:20:48uncertain about how much help for
1:20:50contact tracing they actually needed
1:20:52my team then looked at creating a canada
1:20:54experience grant
1:20:55that would make bursaries available to
1:20:57students who volunteered in positions
1:20:59deemed essential during covet 19.
1:21:02a good deed bonus if you will however
1:21:05given significant concerns for the
1:21:06health and safety of students my team
1:21:08moved away from the idea of an essential
1:21:10position
1:21:11and broadened the scope of volunteering
1:21:14my team along with the sdc of course
1:21:16also considered whether two
1:21:18organizations working together could
1:21:20administer
1:21:20this grant we considered a series of
1:21:23third parties who could have the
1:21:24capacity to deliver this type of program
1:21:27including shopify ceridian
1:21:30imagine canada volunteer canada the
1:21:33canadian red cross
1:21:34the united way and the i want to help
1:21:36platform concept developed by esdc
1:21:39the student announcement on april 22nd
1:21:42was high level
1:21:43with further details to be worked out
1:21:45following further analysis by esdc
1:21:48it was during this course of the
1:21:49analysis that the potential of
1:21:51partnering with we charity came up
1:21:53on april 9th i received a what we heard
1:21:56document
1:21:57summarizing stakeholder feedback on
1:21:59student support during the covet
1:22:01emergency
1:22:02prepared by my minister's office we
1:22:04charity was one of 12 stakeholders
1:22:06included in the document
1:22:08i believe my minister actually mentioned
1:22:09that as well on april 16th
1:22:12in an email discussion on which
1:22:13organizations might be able to deliver a
1:22:15range of volunt
1:22:16opportunities across the country we
1:22:19charity was raised as a possibility by
1:22:21colleagues at esdc
1:22:23i encourage gsdc to include we charity
1:22:26in their analysis of potential delivery
1:22:28options
1:22:29on april 18th i debriefed my minister's
1:22:32office
1:22:32on progress on the file i noted to them
1:22:35that esdc had informed us that we
1:22:37charity
1:22:38may be an option my team also held a
1:22:41joint teleconference with esdc
1:22:43where a number of organizations were
1:22:44discussed i cannot recall who actually
1:22:47raised the idea to speak with we
1:22:49but i cannot call recall that we all
1:22:51agreed to it
1:22:53on april 19th we received a copy from
1:22:55esdc of the april 9th
1:22:57we social entrepreneurship proposal
1:23:00pardon me that had been previously
1:23:02circulated to ministers
1:23:04this was the first time the proposal was
1:23:06provided to me according to my records
1:23:08that same evening my branch routed a
1:23:10briefing package to our minister
1:23:12that included the we proposal as an
1:23:14annex but no analysis nor recommendation
1:23:17was provided on we
1:23:18the next day april 20th my minister's
1:23:21office connected with we charity
1:23:23to discuss their ability to deliver
1:23:25volunteer opportunities
1:23:27the records of this call from my
1:23:28minister's office note that we charity
1:23:31will rework their 10-week summer program
1:23:34proposal
1:23:35to fully meet the policy objective of
1:23:37national service
1:23:38and increase their current placements of
1:23:408 000 to double
1:23:42on april 22nd of course the prime
1:23:44minister made his student package
1:23:46announcement
1:23:47on april 23rd in a meeting between my
1:23:49team and esdc
1:23:51we discussed the possibility of we
1:23:53charity as a third party who could offer
1:23:55virtual volunteer placements and
1:23:58potentially administer the canada
1:24:00student service grant
1:24:01my office also set up a meeting with we
1:24:03charity to take place the next afternoon
1:24:06on april 24th esdc and finance officials
1:24:09spoke with we charity to better
1:24:11understand the organization in its
1:24:13capacity
1:24:14no commitments were made other than esdc
1:24:16would follow up
1:24:18as is usual after a funding decision and
1:24:20announcement
1:24:21further development of the detailed
1:24:22program proposal was turned over to esdc
1:24:26on may 7th i received a copy from esdc
1:24:29of a may 4 proposal from we charity to
1:24:32deliver the canada student service grant
1:24:34for the government
1:24:35this is the first time finance officials
1:24:37saw a proposal where we
1:24:39charity could be the third party
1:24:41administrator for the program
1:24:43my team continued to work with esdc as
1:24:45they developed the program
1:24:47and advanced a cabinet proposal i also
1:24:49continued to brief my minister's office
1:24:51which is normal practice as major
1:24:53initiatives proceed to cabinet
1:24:55and then to launch in this context we
1:24:58charity was raised a number of times and
1:25:00ultimately formed the basis of the
1:25:02recommendation of esdc to minister
1:25:04chagar
1:25:04that the govern the government enter
1:25:06into a contribution agreement with we
1:25:08charity to administer the canada student
1:25:10service grant
1:25:12finance officials supported this
1:25:13recommendation in related advice to our
1:25:16minister
1:25:16including the detailed costing of the
1:25:18proposal as outlined by minister chagar
1:25:21in her testimony last week i would be
1:25:23happy to answer any questions from the
1:25:25committee
1:25:26thank you uh thank you very very much
1:25:29miss
1:25:30kovitch and i failed to uh
1:25:33introduce you uh as uh in terms of your
1:25:36responsibilities you are
1:25:38assistant deputy minister federal
1:25:40provincial relations and social uh
1:25:42policy
1:25:43uh branch so uh thank you for that uh
1:25:46that statement
1:25:47uh i'm not sure and the clerk will have
1:25:50to tell us
1:25:50on on this uh miss uh offered to stay
1:25:54longer if necessary
1:25:56uh what i would suggest is we go to
1:25:59eight
1:26:00questioners uh four minutes uh
1:26:03per question round and
1:26:06and i'll go with the list i have from
1:26:08panel one because i don't have a new
1:26:10list which would be
1:26:11starting with uh mr uh cooper then miss
1:26:15catrack as miss fourteen
1:26:16fourteen and miss uh angus and uh mr
1:26:19angus
1:26:20uh would we be okay with that but clerk
1:26:23i have to ask you
1:26:24i know we're under uh tight time frames
1:26:27on these uh
1:26:29video conferences and are we
1:26:32are we going to be okay uh with the uh
1:26:35with the use of uh the room uh where
1:26:38this is centered at if an ottawa are we
1:26:40okay to go
1:26:41uh another half an hour the the deputy
1:26:44minute assistant deputy minister made a
1:26:45seven minute statement
1:26:47are we okay to go about another half an
1:26:49hour there i'll inquire right now
1:26:51um unless you know if it's an issue okay
1:26:53so the total list i have
1:26:55and it's subject to change because i
1:26:57don't have a list folks
1:26:58would be cooper kotrakus forte angus
1:27:02polyam zerowitz marantz and
1:27:04francoscottis
1:27:06uh so any difference on that uh just uh
1:27:08yell at me i guess what you'll have to
1:27:10do mr ferdinand
1:27:11oh sorry mr cooper go ahead i think it's
1:27:13supposed to be mr paulia first and then
1:27:15me
1:27:16okay mr polyam want to go first and then
1:27:18we'll put cooper in uh
1:27:20his place mr paliav yes um
1:27:23miss uh kovacevic you
1:27:27uh attended a meeting in mid-april
1:27:30with miss wernick and miss wernick
1:27:33suggested
1:27:34before this committee that you were the
1:27:36one that first suggested
1:27:37we be the delivery group for this
1:27:41program is that true
1:27:46thank you for the question the um
1:27:48meeting that you're referring to
1:27:50i believe took place on april the 18th
1:27:53in the evening
1:27:55uh at this point we are discussing a
1:27:58broad range of issues uh
1:28:00including sorry we don't have a lot of
1:28:01time i'm just asking if you were the one
1:28:03who first suggested we that's all
1:28:05yep uh i was certainly the one who
1:28:08initiated the meeting
1:28:09we were talking about grant and credit
1:28:12and
1:28:12whether um there was uh
1:28:15opportunities for uh did you suggest we
1:28:19did you suggest we i do not recall
1:28:23if it was me who actually raised the
1:28:25idea but what i do recall clearly is
1:28:28that we all
1:28:29agreed to it and just to be clear to the
1:28:31committee
1:28:32that it was in the context of volunteer
1:28:34placement
1:28:35in um mobilizing through their social
1:28:38media
1:28:38to uh okay so so
1:28:42uh prior to that had you discussed the
1:28:45idea of employing we for this with any
1:28:48uh exempt staff of the government of uh
1:28:51any of the ministers no uh according to
1:28:54my records the first
1:28:56mention of we uh to me is on april 16th
1:28:59and that again is in a conversation that
1:29:02i was having with my colleagues at esdc
1:29:05and again this is in the context of
1:29:07their names what were their names
1:29:09on that call on april 16th that would be
1:29:12rachel wernick
1:29:13and also the associate deputy minister
1:29:16which one who who is that benoit
1:29:21and did they suggest where they had
1:29:22heard that idea of bringing in we
1:29:26this wasn't about bringing in we this
1:29:28was about
1:29:30the fact that uh we could partner
1:29:33with the company like we to do volunteer
1:29:36matching
1:29:37yeah so the question was did they
1:29:38mention if they had where they heard
1:29:40that idea from
1:29:41um pierre uh we'll we'll give her give
1:29:44the lady time to uh
1:29:45to answer if we could uh miss kobovic
1:29:50yes the idea was uh a partnership could
1:29:53a company
1:29:54like we want to order volunteers
1:29:57go ahead what's your point order so i'm
1:29:59not interested in what the idea was i'm
1:30:01asking
1:30:02where it came from the question was very
1:30:04specific it was very clear we don't have
1:30:06a lot of time i'd ask
1:30:08you to call the witness to answer the
1:30:09question the question was
1:30:11did esdc officials in that meeting
1:30:13mention where they had got
1:30:15where they had her first heard the idea
1:30:18of bringing we
1:30:18into the delivery of this program or
1:30:22involving it in any way that's the
1:30:25question
1:30:25go ahead mrs kovitch all i can say
1:30:29is that esdc raised the issue
1:30:33we never discussed where the issue came
1:30:35from
1:30:36and that is it how many times did you
1:30:38discuss we with
1:30:40exempt staff in the government with
1:30:43exempt staff in the government i
1:30:46wouldn't know off the top of my head
1:30:49but leading up to the prime minister's
1:30:53announcement
1:30:54um i imagine there would be um
1:30:57a number of occasions where i would talk
1:31:00about
1:31:01uh the partnerships that we could enter
1:31:03into
1:31:04and how many uh roughly half a dozen
1:31:06times
1:31:09i don't know i can't i can't recall do
1:31:11you remember with whom you had
1:31:12you discussed we
1:31:16would have to well i would have i would
1:31:18very gladly turn over my emails
1:31:20and i could you know we could say very
1:31:22specifically with whom i was discussing
1:31:24i would like to make clear to the
1:31:25committee that the discussions were
1:31:28on a broad range ideas that's fine
1:31:32uh so uh did you ever discuss we
1:31:35with minister mourinho
1:31:39um yes most certainly uh of course the
1:31:42government dates
1:31:43on what dates just to give give uh
1:31:47she didn't answer the question to her
1:31:49question on what dates
1:31:51let her allow her to answer the
1:31:53questions uh
1:31:54miss kovich go ahead
1:31:58thank you um i can tell you that leading
1:32:00up to the prime minister's announcement
1:32:02on the 22nd
1:32:04there were three uh briefings of
1:32:06minister morneau the 14th
1:32:07the 18th and the 21st um
1:32:10at no point in any of these briefings
1:32:13did we talk about
1:32:14uh the idea or advice was given to
1:32:18um select we as a recipient for a third
1:32:21party so that never came up
1:32:23that wasn't my question my question was
1:32:26when last question pierre
1:32:27all right so uh the the question was
1:32:32again on what occasions did you discuss
1:32:35we with bill morneau what occasions
1:32:38that's all just those that specific
1:32:40question
1:32:42so only when i have a scheduled briefing
1:32:45um with the minister and i gave you the
1:32:47three um
1:32:48scheduled briefings the first one on the
1:32:5014th we were talking about the broad
1:32:53nine billion dollar package uh and
1:32:55absolutely not about we
1:32:57but on the 18th and the 21st there was a
1:33:01range of a grant a credit we talked
1:33:04about shopify
1:33:05ceridian uh in a verbal briefing um i
1:33:08certainly may have mentioned it in our
1:33:10actual analysis
1:33:11uh we do not talk about it except for
1:33:14what the minister did actually say
1:33:16and that is we attached the annex of the
1:33:18first proposal
1:33:20um that we received from we
1:33:23to a briefing note without any
1:33:25recommendation
1:33:26and without any analysis okay thank you
1:33:29uh thank you uh both
1:33:30uh then turning i believe we have miss
1:33:33zerowitz next and then mr forte is it mr
1:33:36forten you had your hand up
1:33:37earlier did you want to what were you
1:33:40going to say
1:33:44i can't
1:33:49you're not coming through to me somehow
1:33:58still not okay we'll go
1:34:01we'll go to missouri
1:34:22because we have to go to the ethics
1:34:24committee
1:34:25uh we will go a little bit uh
1:34:28beyond four because we're going to go
1:34:30with eight questioners
1:34:32uh at uh at four minutes uh each
1:34:36uh if we if we could so we'll go to ms
1:34:38sirowicz we'll definitely get to you
1:34:40next after miss zero it's neil of time
1:34:42to get to the committee
1:34:43mr sir
1:34:50julie are you there you're mike's mother
1:34:53sorry sorry i also do that sometimes
1:34:55thank you so much mr chair thank you uh
1:34:58miss kovacevic uh thank you for your
1:35:00testimony
1:35:01today and thanks for your extraordinary
1:35:03work there's a narrative and i think
1:35:05you're hearing some of the questions
1:35:07that um that uh
1:35:10it's believed that finance or someone at
1:35:13finance
1:35:14only suggested we and it was only the
1:35:16intention of our government to suggest
1:35:18we
1:35:19as the uh as the deliverer for the
1:35:21canada student service grant
1:35:24can you please for the record let us
1:35:27know
1:35:28whether uh whether it was you or
1:35:31whether is the team or officials at
1:35:33finance
1:35:34who only suggested we as the
1:35:38recommendation for the cssg
1:35:40or was we always considered with
1:35:43a whole number of other organizations
1:35:46initially
1:35:46so if you could just clarify that
1:35:48because that is kind of the implication
1:35:49of a lot of the questions here
1:35:53thank you for your question so um i can
1:35:56clearly say
1:35:57that um up to the april 22nd
1:36:01announcement the prime minister
1:36:02where we announced a set-aside of up to
1:36:05900 million dollars
1:36:06for a canada student service grant
1:36:10that there was no recommendation
1:36:13about we and no recommendation to enter
1:36:17into a third party in fact the
1:36:19recommendation or the
1:36:20follow-up was that the department of
1:36:22employment and social development
1:36:24would have to bring in a proposal with
1:36:27the advice on how to do this
1:36:28and with whom the final decision
1:36:33of course when the government announced
1:36:36that it would
1:36:37be entering into a contribution
1:36:39agreement with we
1:36:41we the department of finance uh
1:36:43recommended this advice to
1:36:45our minister and in our
1:36:48note uh we do say we note that
1:36:52the we charity organization we have been
1:36:56told
1:36:56is in fact the only organization
1:37:00that could stand up the proposal as is
1:37:02described
1:37:04with the um you know sort of the
1:37:06magnitude and the ambition
1:37:08and the volume of the service placements
1:37:10desired and
1:37:11most importantly in the time required
1:37:14um you'll recall that you know april
1:37:1722nd when the prime minister made the
1:37:18announcement
1:37:19very high level announcements still
1:37:21worked to be done by the department of
1:37:22esdc
1:37:23to figure out how to implement this and
1:37:26with whom
1:37:28you know university and college students
1:37:30were just about to finish their spring
1:37:31semester so there was
1:37:33uh real pressure to do things uh quickly
1:37:36and to get this off the ground thank you
1:37:40and um and do you know anything like
1:37:42what type of due diligence is
1:37:44done on um organizations in
1:37:48in a normal process so would that have
1:37:49been the responsibility of
1:37:52um finance to have done sort of the due
1:37:54diligence on
1:37:56third-party organizations before
1:37:58contracts are cyber would that have been
1:37:59the responsibility of whoever was
1:38:01responsible for the program
1:38:04thank you for the question well there's
1:38:06many kinds of due diligence and it's not
1:38:08for me
1:38:09to speculate on how well due diligence
1:38:11was executed
1:38:12what i can say is that the lead on
1:38:16the negotiation of the contribution
1:38:17agreement it's not the department of
1:38:19finance it in fact is the department of
1:38:20esdc
1:38:21so choosing the organization and
1:38:24anything
1:38:24you know the accountability is up to the
1:38:28department of esdc
1:38:29now the department of finance of course
1:38:32uh
1:38:32approved the 900 million dollar
1:38:34set-aside so
1:38:35we are we are looking at the fiscal
1:38:38framework and making sure that
1:38:41whatever esdc recommends and puts
1:38:43forward
1:38:45actually abides by and is in keeping
1:38:48with the broad parameters
1:38:49of what we put in the funding decision
1:38:52um
1:38:53you know to spend up to 900 million
1:38:55dollars we're going to have to end it
1:38:56there because mr forten
1:38:58hasn't got a lot of time mr fortan the
1:39:00floor is yours
1:39:01for four minutes
1:39:10uh
1:39:24is
1:39:38yes
1:39:44uh sure to best my recollection
1:39:48mr chair there was myself of course
1:39:52my associate deputy minister susie
1:39:54mcdonald
1:39:55uh rachel wernick um um
1:39:59who is the senior assistant deputy
1:40:01minister at esdc
1:40:02and she may have been joined by somebody
1:40:04but i have to check the record i'm not
1:40:21found is that possible
1:40:24it would be my pleasure sir and indeed
1:40:26um
1:40:27the committee has ordered um for us to
1:40:30produce uh
1:40:31all kinds of documentation which we are
1:40:33gathering and we will be submitting
1:40:47four or five
1:40:50no sorry sir i said that i can recollect
1:40:53for sure this is a teleconference at
1:40:55like 10 o'clock at night i think or late
1:40:57in the evening uh
1:40:58me susie and rachel for sure beyond that
1:41:02my recollection um
1:41:06how many people were with you one
1:41:10susie no susie rachel
1:41:24that's what i don't know this is a
1:41:26teleconference so i don't know if there
1:41:27was anybody else on the phone
1:41:29okay i don't i don't is
1:41:51to be more transparent in attributing
1:41:53the contract
1:41:57the decision to choose we
1:42:01and to enter into a contribution
1:42:02agreement whether sole source
1:42:05or open tender was a recommendation put
1:42:08forward by minister chagar
1:42:11the department of finance considers that
1:42:14proposal
1:42:15and made our recommendation which was
1:42:17favorable
1:42:18at no time would i have been in in a
1:42:20discussion
1:42:21at all negotiating this contribution
1:42:24agreement that is solely
1:42:26uh the responsibility of the department
1:42:28of esd
1:42:30yes
1:42:40uh
1:42:53i don't recall exactly what was
1:42:55discussed but i
1:42:56i can say that we were in agreement with
1:42:59the proposal is put forward
1:43:01recognizing all the work and policy that
1:43:04we had done
1:43:04upstream in terms of the capacity and
1:43:07the timing for delivery
1:43:09and we were in agreement and fully
1:43:11supportive of the
1:43:12proposal as it was put forward thank you
1:43:15uh
1:43:15thank you both uh all the best at your
1:43:17next committee mr forte
1:43:19uh go on the list uh mr
1:43:23uh angus uh we'll go with a four minute
1:43:26round and then after you mr cooper
1:43:30mr angus well thank you so much and
1:43:32thank you
1:43:33so much for participating in our
1:43:35hearings um
1:43:37who was the the key point person for we
1:43:40when you discussed the proposal
1:43:44the key point person where in the
1:43:47department of finance
1:43:49per week well
1:43:52discussions with we who was the point
1:43:54person that you discussed with
1:43:56so i only had one discussion with we
1:43:59uh on april the 24th and this is a
1:44:02discussion
1:44:03um but there was a proposal
1:44:08back around april 7th april 9th that was
1:44:10circulating and it was a different
1:44:12proposal
1:44:13and then we uh changed their proposal to
1:44:16meet the guidelines
1:44:17so who in your department spoke with
1:44:20like someone was speaking with we they
1:44:23weren't coming up with this
1:44:24from the ouija board so who was the
1:44:26person that we that was the point person
1:44:29pardon me i understand your question now
1:44:31so i can tell you that on april 20th
1:44:34my minister's office amit singh
1:44:38had connected with somebody at wii i'm
1:44:42not sure who
1:44:43and they were talking about volunteer
1:44:45opportunities and that is the part that
1:44:47i read in my opening statement
1:44:49but they enhancing from 8 000 to double
1:44:53charlie move the microphone a little
1:44:54closer to your mouth too please
1:44:56okay i will there boss i guess what i'm
1:44:59finding really surprising here is we
1:45:01have a proposal
1:45:02and it's not the the real the one that
1:45:05the government needs but then
1:45:07another proposal gets written that's
1:45:08much more close
1:45:11there had to be negotiations back and
1:45:12forth with we
1:45:14to in order to make this thing credible
1:45:16or was this just done on the back of a
1:45:18napkin was there work done
1:45:19so that this proposal the second
1:45:21proposal
1:45:22met the requirements so that you could
1:45:25then go and and say this is as close as
1:45:27we can get this is a group that can do
1:45:28it so
1:45:30who was that point person so i can't
1:45:33speculate and i don't know
1:45:34who would have been talking to we if
1:45:36anybody it certainly was not
1:45:38uh certainly not me or the department of
1:45:41finance officials
1:45:42um i would i would clarify for the
1:45:44committee that
1:45:46this second proposal which was building
1:45:48on the first one
1:45:49which in in addition to social
1:45:51entrepreneurship and business service
1:45:53placements
1:45:54there was a service placement stream so
1:45:56covered
1:45:57the arts um that is still uh not
1:46:01the ultimate proposal in what the
1:46:03government agreed to do
1:46:04third party administrator okay so how
1:46:07many other proposals
1:46:09were we were brought forward by
1:46:10charities in between
1:46:12the first proposal by we and the second
1:46:14how many other
1:46:16proposals came across the desk at
1:46:18finance from
1:46:19other groups so
1:46:22the proposals that came to me uh none of
1:46:26these actually came to me
1:46:27i am aware that there was a proposal
1:46:30from u15
1:46:31with respect to universities you'll
1:46:32recall this is an entire student package
1:46:35not just a student no no but for this
1:46:37specific plan
1:46:38it seems odd that there's an original
1:46:40proposal it's not the same thing
1:46:42at all but then it begins a series of
1:46:44discussions and then a second proposal
1:46:46comes forward
1:46:48and that's very close and then we
1:46:49becomes the only group
1:46:51um like i i mean you guys don't do
1:46:54things on the fly we're talking about
1:46:56900 million dollars there had to be
1:46:58either a number of other proposals you
1:47:00looked at there had to be serious
1:47:01negotiations you were involved in
1:47:03um were there other proposals on the
1:47:06table besides we
1:47:07for this specific kind of program did
1:47:10you check other groups to say what could
1:47:11you deliver and how fast could you turn
1:47:13it around
1:47:14so what i could say sir is that um the
1:47:17pm's announcement on april 22nd was high
1:47:20level there was
1:47:21no identification of a party it was just
1:47:23a set-aside
1:47:25and esdc then was is and did
1:47:28follow up with respect to how how to
1:47:31deliver this and with whom
1:47:32so it would be uh esdc who would make
1:47:35the determination
1:47:36if i guess the issue and i got it
1:47:40here but it's it this program seems
1:47:43tailor made for we
1:47:45we've been involved in discussions
1:47:47politically exempt staff are involved
1:47:49you haven't named who they are
1:47:50the question we're asking and we're not
1:47:52blaming you but we're asked talking
1:47:54about your higher-ups
1:47:55was we given the inside track and we
1:47:57haven't seen anything that tells us
1:47:59that between the first and the second
1:48:01proposal
1:48:02that there was a whole bunch of other
1:48:04proposals on the table
1:48:05what we've seen is between the first and
1:48:07second proposals that we
1:48:08were certainly able to really refine
1:48:11their position so that when rachel
1:48:12werner called them
1:48:13they had all the right answers so i need
1:48:15to know who we was involved in the
1:48:17discussions and how much discussions
1:48:19went back and forth so that that second
1:48:21proposal was a lot closer
1:48:22to what you guys agreed to and that's
1:48:24the answer i'm not hearing
1:48:27i can only tell oh thank you i can only
1:48:30tell you the facts as i understand them
1:48:31and know them
1:48:32and that is that on april 20th there was
1:48:34one um
1:48:35one conversation between my minister's
1:48:37office and we which i have
1:48:39already discussed and outside of that
1:48:41other than my own conversation with
1:48:43rachel
1:48:44and we on the 24th i am unaware of any
1:48:47other
1:48:47um contact at all and i can't speak to
1:48:50that okay
1:48:50okay uh thank you uh we will uh
1:48:54go to the last round four minutes a
1:48:56piece
1:48:57uh the lineup will be mr cooper mr
1:48:59fragis goddess mr morantz and
1:49:02and miss kotrakus mr cooper okay
1:49:06uh thank you uh mr chair i want to thank
1:49:08uh the witness i want to just
1:49:10get a better understanding of
1:49:13how we came up you had mentioned as i
1:49:18understood your
1:49:19timeline that the possibility of
1:49:23we came up in an email discussion
1:49:26on april 16th from esdc
1:49:30am i right you are correct
1:49:33and who raised that
1:49:37from esdc
1:49:40that would have been my colleague rachel
1:49:42wernick
1:49:44rachel wernick and prior to that time
1:49:46you had never
1:49:47heard anyone bring up we
1:49:50other than on april 9th when you said
1:49:54there was
1:49:54some stakeholder feedback in which 12
1:49:58charities were identified is that
1:50:01correct
1:50:02that's correct april 16th according to
1:50:04my records is the first time that we
1:50:07enters into a broad-ranging discussion
1:50:11uh we have not even uh settled on a
1:50:13grant we are talking about
1:50:15tuition credit fine fine i i got that
1:50:19but on april the 9th
1:50:23during that the same day as the
1:50:26stakeholder
1:50:27feedback session we submits a proposal
1:50:30is that right
1:50:32well i became aware of that proposal on
1:50:35april 19th
1:50:36when esdc that's not my question my
1:50:39question is
1:50:40the there was a proposal from we
1:50:42submitted on that date april 9
1:50:45right yes and who was it sent
1:50:48from i don't have anything
1:50:52to find out what do you undertake to
1:50:54find out
1:50:55i can do my best to do that sir all i
1:50:57can say is that
1:50:58i received no that's fine i understand
1:51:00that who was it sent to
1:51:02i presume you don't know that either i
1:51:04don't but it was sent
1:51:06to finance the ministers
1:51:11that's right the minister said that
1:51:12himself
1:51:14were you aware of any other proposals
1:51:16that had been submitted on april 9
1:51:18prior to that i am not aware of any sir
1:51:21you're not aware of any
1:51:22okay so we have this proposal
1:51:26from we and uh now
1:51:29uh in terms of um what happened after
1:51:34that you briefed
1:51:35the actually maybe backtracking a little
1:51:37bit you talked about
1:51:39the fact that you considered a number of
1:51:41organizations this is before
1:51:43april 9th in in broad terms
1:51:47of potentially administering some sort
1:51:50of student program
1:51:51correct uh april 6th
1:51:54uh 7th 8th the very early days i get
1:51:57that thank you thank you for that
1:51:59will allow and allow the adm to answer
1:52:02that uh
1:52:03mr cooper go ahead uh miss kobich
1:52:06so the records will show that those
1:52:08early days uh
1:52:10were about describing an entire frame
1:52:12for the student package which turned out
1:52:14to be the 9 billion dollars
1:52:15thank you for that now you had mentioned
1:52:17a series of organizations one of which
1:52:19was
1:52:20volunteer canada now president of
1:52:22volunteer canada
1:52:23came here before the committee and
1:52:27said that they had never been approached
1:52:31by your department by any
1:52:34department regarding a student package
1:52:38and when i asked the president of
1:52:41volunteer canada to explain
1:52:44ms wernick's testimony namely that
1:52:47volunteer canada had been considered she
1:52:49was unable to explain
1:52:51how possibly volunteer canada could have
1:52:53been considered when they never even
1:52:54were contacted
1:52:55how do you explain that that'll be the
1:52:57last question
1:52:58sure thank you for the question so all
1:53:01those companies that i mentioned
1:53:02in my organizations that i mentioned in
1:53:04my opening statement
1:53:06this is all a part of the broad ideas
1:53:08that we are considering
1:53:10leading up to the april 22nd
1:53:12announcement and decision by the
1:53:14government
1:53:14to the only organization
1:53:18mr mr cooper the the adm has the floor
1:53:22go ahead mr kobovich thank you leading
1:53:25up to the
1:53:26uh april 22nd announcement in fact the
1:53:28department of finance had not contacted
1:53:30any of those on any of those
1:53:32organizations including we
1:53:34the officials had not contacted and they
1:53:36never did call a volunteer camp i'm so
1:53:38i'm
1:53:38i'm you're at a time mr cooper
1:53:42uh okay we'll go to mr fragis goddess
1:53:45i'm not sure whether it's going to be mr
1:53:46marantz or mr
1:53:48uh they'll have to let me know
1:53:50when we get there
1:53:51and uh and we'll conclude with uh
1:53:54miss kutrakus uh peter
1:53:58thank you mr chair uh thank you for
1:54:00being here ms kovachevic
1:54:01and for your outstanding work in
1:54:05this entire experience you and so many
1:54:07other public servants have
1:54:08really gone to bat for the entire
1:54:10country i'm sure spending
1:54:12a lot of time away from loved ones from
1:54:14uh family members
1:54:16specifically and and others as well so
1:54:18thank you for your contributions
1:54:19my question relates to contribution
1:54:22agreements
1:54:24that that go ahead we've heard
1:54:27at the committee before that we had
1:54:31quite an extensive network connected to
1:54:35000 schools connected to 2.4 million
1:54:38students
1:54:39one of the reasons that they were chosen
1:54:41was because
1:54:42of that extensive reach that they had
1:54:45we've worked as a government
1:54:47as well with the united way with food
1:54:49banks canada always on the premise it
1:54:51seems
1:54:52that the network and reach of a
1:54:54particular
1:54:55entity qualifies it to be
1:54:58the to take the lead in a contribution
1:55:01agreement
1:55:02is that in fact the case in your
1:55:03experience are you in a position to
1:55:05speak to that
1:55:06is is that one of the key criteria the
1:55:08the ability of an organization
1:55:10to to reach many different entities
1:55:13uh and help the government deliver vital
1:55:16programming and services
1:55:20that's a pretty broad question thank you
1:55:21for it um
1:55:23i'm not sure i can generalize i think in
1:55:26some cases that may be the case but what
1:55:28i can say with respect to the decision
1:55:30by the government to enter into
1:55:32a contribution agreement with we in fact
1:55:35the capacity to reach
1:55:38students wherever they were in canada
1:55:40was certainly
1:55:42you know foremost in our mind being able
1:55:44to ramp up quickly
1:55:46being able to support not just students
1:55:48um you know volunteer matching isn't
1:55:50you know a hot dog stand outside a
1:55:52hocking arena that needs to be
1:55:53structured you need to be supportive
1:55:56but also the the not-for-profit and
1:55:58charity sector who would be
1:56:00offering volunteer placements who they
1:56:02themselves were in the middle of a
1:56:03pandemic
1:56:05facing financial issues many of them and
1:56:08more importantly what a typical
1:56:11volunteer experience was given the
1:56:13social distancing
1:56:15scenario in the middle of the pandemic
1:56:17made the whole thing very precarious and
1:56:19so there were not a lot of organizations
1:56:21quite frankly
1:56:22in our estimation that could could cough
1:56:26up
1:56:27all these criteria and all these skills
1:56:30in the short order and the enormously
1:56:32aggressive timeline in which we were
1:56:34working
1:56:35was there an organization that was
1:56:36comparable or
1:56:38was did we have the sort of reach that
1:56:41that just you know put set it aside as
1:56:44as
1:56:45the organization i mean as i said before
1:56:47the numbers we've heard are
1:56:49almost two and a half million students
1:56:51seven thousand schools
1:56:53uh was there another organization that
1:56:55rivaled that
1:56:56at all or or did we really have that
1:56:59ability uh unique unto itself
1:57:01to my knowledge i don't think i can i
1:57:04can answer that because i'm not an
1:57:05expert in social policy
1:57:07uh necessarily i'm in the department of
1:57:10finance
1:57:11but from what we understood from our
1:57:13colleagues at esdc
1:57:14they were the best placed um given um
1:57:18given everything that was to be expected
1:57:19and the ambition of the government
1:57:21last question peter sure i've asked this
1:57:24question before but i think it's
1:57:26worth raising one more time when the
1:57:29consideration was being taken as to who
1:57:31could best deliver the canada student
1:57:33service grant
1:57:34some have posed the the canada
1:57:38service corps should have been chosen uh
1:57:41why not the canada service corps uh ms
1:57:44kobachevik what
1:57:45uh what was it uh about them that uh
1:57:48that prevented that from from going
1:57:50ahead
1:57:52that option going ahead yes thank you
1:57:54for that question
1:57:55in fact uh the records will show that
1:57:57the canada service corps
1:57:59was in fact the place where esdc started
1:58:01and they actually submitted a proposal
1:58:03to us
1:58:04to ramp up um its uh its capacity to
1:58:07offer microgrants
1:58:08uh and in fact uh there was one initial
1:58:11proposal where they ramped up to seven
1:58:13thousand
1:58:13and there will be a record of me saying
1:58:15that isn't that's too modest
1:58:16and then they came back with a second
1:58:18proposal of 15 000.
1:58:20i know that esdc also looked at the
1:58:22administrator taking it global
1:58:24to see if it had uh you know two-factor
1:58:28authentication if it had you know
1:58:29sophisticated ways to volunteer match
1:58:31and whether um whether you know in
1:58:33partnership with esdc that
1:58:35this is something we could leverage in
1:58:37the end uh
1:58:39the capacity obviously was funded for
1:58:41for canada service corps
1:58:42but that was sort of the maximum and the
1:58:44ambition
1:58:45and the need was still greater than what
1:58:47the canada service corps
1:58:48in our estimation and in esdc's
1:58:50estimation could deliver okay
1:58:52thank you uh thank you both are we going
1:58:54to you mr
1:58:56uh we going to from the conservative
1:58:58camp mr
1:58:59or mr marantz oh you're going to me okay
1:59:02thank you good thank you
1:59:03sir when you start to get into your more
1:59:06detailed discussions about
1:59:08we it sounds like it was on around the
1:59:1020th
1:59:1122nd who and you said they were looking
1:59:15at capacity
1:59:16so who is looking at the capacity of
1:59:19this organization
1:59:20their financial capacity their their
1:59:23ability to deliver
1:59:24more than just statements from them
1:59:27about their reach
1:59:28reaches you know it could be facebook
1:59:31likes it could be their social media
1:59:33exposure but that doesn't necessarily
1:59:35deal with capacity
1:59:37so who was looking at their actual
1:59:39physical capacity
1:59:40because it sounds like they had to hire
1:59:42a raft of people before the contract or
1:59:44the contribution agreement was even
1:59:46signed
1:59:47and they've had to since lay them off so
1:59:49was that your department or was that
1:59:50esdc
1:59:53so that that is not that is not my
1:59:56department
1:59:57you'll recall that leading up to the
1:59:59prime minister's announcement there was
2:00:00no decision
2:00:02on a third party administer and so any
2:00:05discussion that happened with we
2:00:07was it was potential it's can you do
2:00:09social mobilization can you do a public
2:00:11awareness campaign can you be a partner
2:00:13in volunteer matching
2:00:14um as uh as the announcement was made
2:00:18the high level announcement for
2:00:19up to 900 million on the 22nd
2:00:22effectively the baton
2:00:23gets tossed from finance department to
2:00:26esdc
2:00:27and it is now esdc who was responsible
2:00:30to develop
2:00:31a proposal for consideration of cabinet
2:00:34on how to
2:00:36meet the criteria for a canada student
2:00:38services grant so
2:00:40the the further questions as you have
2:00:44asked would be carried out
2:00:46on the second end the latter end as
2:00:48opposed to the front end when it was
2:00:50more
2:00:51policy elucidation deliberation and what
2:00:53we were really trying to do is make sure
2:00:55that there were credible organizations
2:00:58not just we anything so that when the
2:01:01prime minister announced the canada
2:01:02student service grant
2:01:04we could with some assuredness say there
2:01:06are options that we can deliver on
2:01:08whatever those options may be esdc will
2:01:11have to elucidate and determine
2:01:13and recommend um there will be options
2:01:15so that we can deliver these grants to
2:01:17students
2:01:18who needed them within weeks the
2:01:21ambition of the government was initially
2:01:23for a may launch
2:01:25understand all that but it to me it
2:01:28strikes me
2:01:29it's finance you're you're you're
2:01:32sending out a program that is 900
2:01:34million dollars
2:01:36surely someone in your department if
2:01:38you're going to sign a contribution
2:01:39agreement even at csdc
2:01:41who takes responsibility to making sure
2:01:45that that the organization that you're
2:01:47going to sign a contribution agreement
2:01:49has
2:01:49the financial wherewithal the proper
2:01:52governance
2:01:53everything that you would expect to
2:01:55taking public sector
2:01:57dollars to execute the program i i i
2:02:00there must be somebody whether it's estc
2:02:02but surely finance must have a role in
2:02:04that
2:02:06go ahead ma'am oh i was just going to
2:02:09say
2:02:09thank you i was just going to say that
2:02:11you know again
2:02:12i repeat that there was no
2:02:14recommendation on who to deliver
2:02:16uh up to the 22nd when the funding
2:02:19decision and the decision of the
2:02:20government
2:02:20is made and so after that it really
2:02:23really is
2:02:24uh the department of esdc to negotiate
2:02:27the contribution agreement
2:02:28and all the trappings that come with it
2:02:31in terms of
2:02:32being satisfied that uh everything is in
2:02:35order
2:02:36last question james
2:02:39if if this was within your department so
2:02:41let's say you were the approving
2:02:43department the process that you go
2:02:44through
2:02:45in the administration would you delve
2:02:48into
2:02:48uh capacity financial capacity
2:02:51governance like
2:02:52what level of due diligence would you do
2:02:54within your department if you were
2:02:56charged with it
2:02:58um so i mean i can't i can't speculate
2:03:01on what i would have done or what i
2:03:02might do but i certainly what would be
2:03:04your normal practice what would your be
2:03:05your normal practice
2:03:07for this side of that agreement
2:03:10i imagine it would be very similar to
2:03:12the practice that my colleagues have
2:03:13already used dc
2:03:14exercised and it's you know there are
2:03:16terms and conditions that guide
2:03:18um entering into contribution agreements
2:03:21and and we would follow them
2:03:23in the same fashion okay uh miss
2:03:26cutrakas you'll have to wrap it up uh
2:03:28any
2:03:30thank you mr chair thank you for your
2:03:32testimony uh ms
2:03:34kovachevitz i hope i pronounced your
2:03:36name uh correctly
2:03:38and for appearing before the finance
2:03:40committee today
2:03:41and for your testimony and i also want
2:03:43to
2:03:44echo and add my voice to thank you for
2:03:47the great work that you and your
2:03:48department have done
2:03:50with all the work that you have done we
2:03:53have helped millions of canadians and
2:03:54hundreds of thousands of canadian
2:03:56businesses
2:03:57and we've helped our economy from a deep
2:04:00recession
2:04:01and possibly in a very incredibly short
2:04:04time and
2:04:05possibly worse than a recession um
2:04:09you probably have said this before but i
2:04:12think it's worth mentioning again so i
2:04:14will raise it again
2:04:15um could you please walk us through the
2:04:17process of how typically the various
2:04:20programs
2:04:20arising from the pandemic making up the
2:04:23canada
2:04:24emergency response plan or program
2:04:27were put together and got through the
2:04:29idea generation
2:04:30analysis and decision making process
2:04:34and in cases of working with third
2:04:36parties such as we
2:04:38was the process significantly different
2:04:41and if it was
2:04:43why and how
2:04:46thank you for the question i mean i
2:04:48guess i would start by saying
2:04:50the department of finance and myself in
2:04:53the current situation that we're
2:04:55describing i'm
2:04:56not involved the department of finance
2:04:58is not involved in negotiating the
2:05:00agreement
2:05:01and we're not involved in notioning the
2:05:02agreement with um
2:05:04with with we charity so those uh
2:05:07questions uh are are questions for
2:05:10uh esdc and and not for finance
2:05:13in terms of the process thank you for
2:05:15that question
2:05:16uh yes this has been a um
2:05:20wow a whirlwind over the last couple of
2:05:22months in terms of the number of
2:05:23programs we've put in place
2:05:24as assistant deputy minister for social
2:05:26policy i have been involved in you know
2:05:29in the serb in the student package
2:05:31persons with disabilities indigenous you
2:05:34know essential
2:05:35workers wage top up it's been very very
2:05:38busy given the time given the
2:05:40unprecedented
2:05:42you know sort of circumstances canada
2:05:44and the world has found itself in
2:05:46it is not unusual and it is not even
2:05:48unusual before covert times for there to
2:05:50be
2:05:51upstream policy deliberation um you know
2:05:54the government says we want to do
2:05:55something or you know we have money or
2:05:58there's a real need that people need
2:06:00something
2:06:00so we work with esdc with my minister's
2:06:03office
2:06:03how can you know what are the real needs
2:06:05who should we talk to what can we put in
2:06:07place
2:06:08and quite frankly almost everything in
2:06:10my purview in the social policy
2:06:12realm um kind of worked that way there's
2:06:14a lot of
2:06:16massive amounts of discussions and
2:06:17emails ideas
2:06:19fecund ideas kind of rolling off the
2:06:21tongue
2:06:22trying to land on what ultimately will
2:06:25be the best
2:06:26best program service or support to put
2:06:28in place to help
2:06:30canadians who needed it during the
2:06:31pandemic and
2:06:34how would you say you and your
2:06:35department were feeling during these
2:06:37times i know for
2:06:38many of us for myself i can only speak
2:06:41for myself but these are unprecedented
2:06:43times this is the first time that i've
2:06:45had to
2:06:46primarily work from home it's been quite
2:06:48stressful we all have families we all
2:06:51have
2:06:51you know uh we need to be careful and
2:06:54take care of our own health
2:06:56what would you say was the environment
2:06:58how was the morale of
2:06:59of your department and other departments
2:07:01that were working
2:07:02on this to make sure that we deliver the
2:07:05programs
2:07:06that canadians uh look to us for
2:07:09and especially the youth
2:07:12thank you for that question i guess i
2:07:14really i can't you know i can't
2:07:15speculate on how other people in other
2:07:17departments were feeling
2:07:19but um you know we are the public
2:07:20service we stand here to execute the
2:07:22will of the government and to help
2:07:24canadians who needed help
2:07:25we do it proudly and we do it fairly we
2:07:28provide our advice independently
2:07:31but right now i would tell you i'm tired
2:07:35okay we will have to end it at that
2:07:38thank you uh miss katraka as we're
2:07:40starting to run up against uh
2:07:43giving uh parliamentary staff time to
2:07:45clean up the the room before the next
2:07:47panel starts uh uh i just should mention
2:07:51to committee before i release meskovic
2:07:55the
2:07:56the prime minister has accepted the
2:07:58invitation to appear at the finance
2:08:00committee
2:08:01uh arrangements will be made regarding
2:08:04that date and time i think we'd re
2:08:08asked him uh for the 28th
2:08:12uh but i'm sure we'd all be in agreement
2:08:14that uh giving his schedule that
2:08:17uh that uh the clerk will have to
2:08:20uh negotiate a time and place we still
2:08:22will be meeting on the 28th there is
2:08:25already uh
2:08:26witnesses uh scheduled uh for that day
2:08:29so that's for the committee
2:08:30invitation uh uh point of order mr
2:08:34chair yeah who is that coming from early
2:08:37angus
2:08:38okay just quickly i'm wondering because
2:08:40we have uh
2:08:42representatives from we coming next week
2:08:44we're talking about the agreement but we
2:08:46don't really know what it looks like is
2:08:47it possible we can get the contribution
2:08:49agreement
2:08:50so we're just more efficient when we're
2:08:52meeting because it's hard to talk around
2:08:54something unless you know exactly what
2:08:56the terms are
2:08:57uh well we can
2:09:00we can certainly make a request to the
2:09:03clerk of the uh
2:09:04privy council he was at the meeting the
2:09:06other day and i think he said he would
2:09:08provide that to us
2:09:09uh and so i will ask the clerk to
2:09:14quickly draft a little note to the clerk
2:09:16of the privy council to see if we can
2:09:18get that contribution agreement before
2:09:21uh we appears thank you i will ask the
2:09:24clerk on behalf of the committee to do
2:09:25that uh miss
2:09:27kobovich i think you said that
2:09:30it right you said it's been a whirlwind
2:09:33uh
2:09:33three months uh and
2:09:37we've said it numerous times at this
2:09:40committee
2:09:40we do i know today's today's hearings
2:09:44and these hearings
2:09:46sometimes don't look appreciative of the
2:09:49of the work that you all do but i want
2:09:50to tell you that we are
2:09:52very appreciative as canadians as
2:09:55members of parliament
2:09:57uh on the work that the the public
2:09:59service
2:10:00does we always run into some snags in
2:10:02the road but that goes with the process
2:10:04so
2:10:05uh on behalf of the the committee i
2:10:08sincerely want to thank you for
2:10:09appearing here today uh but even more so
2:10:13you and your colleagues for all the work
2:10:15that you've done the long hours you put
2:10:17in the time away from family
2:10:19different working conditions etc etc etc
2:10:23uh that you guys that you folks have
2:10:25faced
2:10:26uh in order to put out the programming
2:10:28to benefit canadians in canadian
2:10:30business so we want to thank
2:10:32you for that and your colleagues as well
2:10:35uh with that
2:10:35uh you're welcome and uh do take care
2:10:39uh so with that we will uh adjourn the
2:10:42meeting and we will see
2:10:43uh everyone on tuesday and we'll send
2:10:45that note to the uh
2:10:46to the clerk thank you all meeting
2:10:54adjourned
2:10:56[Music]
2:11:15you

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