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“We Did $150K In TWO Days" - How Davey Rooney Built Australia’s Most Disruptive Skincare Brand! — Transcript

by Dylan Mullan · 21,620 words · 3,421 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Holy [ __ ] I know nothing about skin
0:01care. All of a sudden my heart starts
0:03beating out of my chest pounding so
0:05quickly. I look down my palms are
0:07covered in sweat. My eyes start darting
0:08across the tram looking for help. My
0:10breath becomes like really short, sharp,
0:12shallow. I feel like I can't suck in
0:14enough oxygen to stay conscious and it's
0:16because I'm having a panic attack. This
0:18was genuinely the lowest point in my
0:21life. I had thoughts that I wouldn't
0:22wish upon anyone. Priceline have an
0:24expectation of what you should be doing
0:25after being in there a year. We're
0:27already doing double that and in some
0:28cases triple that. So for 2 days after
0:31that, well, not even the collaboration
0:32just when she posted organically, we
0:34were doing like 35 times return on ad
0:36spend for those 2 days. And as I said
0:38before, had like our biggest sales day
0:40ever. Even as young as five, I used to
0:42like create a shop in our garage and
0:44knock on the neighbors' doors and get
0:45them to come around and purchase from
0:46the shop. Even in high school, I used to
0:48buy chocolate from the supermarket on
0:49discount and store it in my locker and
0:52sell it to people at high school. I
0:53don't know if I should say this, but
0:55literally within days of launching those
0:57two new products, we've done 150 grand.
0:59How much do you think the brand has
1:00grown like year on year since you guys
1:01have launched?
1:021,000% year on year growth. It wasn't
1:04until I had really finessed the content
1:06style that I launched on Instagram and
1:08then within 6 months on Instagram had
1:10like 200,000 followers. I I think I have
1:13an innate fear it's all just going to
1:15drop. Like sales just going to go
1:17through the floor. That that's just a
1:18constant fear that makes me keep
1:20thinking what's next, what's next,
1:21what's next.
1:25All right, guys. Welcome back to another
1:26episode. This is an awesome e-com banger
1:28for you guys. I'm sorry I was away last
1:30week. I'm getting back from Japan, but
1:32we have Dave Rudin in the house today.
1:34One of the coolest skin care brands in
1:35Australia right now. He's the founder of
1:38Boring Without You. He's also the
1:39creator of Skin Care. Dave, a lot of you
1:40would already follow him or have seen
1:41his content. We dive into how he's been
1:43able to build such a disrupting brand.
1:45They're killing it with e-com. They've
1:47got over 1,000% year on year growth and
1:49they've done amazingly well smashing all
1:51their Priceline targets in retail as
1:52well. So we look at how he achieved such
1:55amazing growth, what they did
1:56differently, um how they've been able to
1:58grow so profitably every single year. So
2:00much value in this as well as a really
2:02um deep story and and and other parts
2:03that we touch on a little bit outside of
2:05business as well. But tons of business
2:06value for everyone in e-com, everyone
2:08building a brand. We'll get into the
2:09podcast in a second. Before we do, can I
2:11please ask for a few quick favors? For
2:13everyone watching on YouTube, um like
2:15this video and subscribe to the channel
2:17if you haven't already. We're getting
2:18close to 5K subscribers. That's
2:19definitely something we want to hit this
2:20year. So if you watch this video and you
2:22watch the podcast and you haven't
2:23subscribed yet, please really helps.
2:25Want to hit 5K at some point this year.
2:27The sooner the better cuz I want to go
2:28way past 5K, but that will be a a really
2:30cool milestone um and I and and it
2:32really mean a lot to me. And for anyone
2:34listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,
2:36if you could leave me a five-star
2:37review, I really do appreciate it.
2:38Really does help the podcast grow. The
2:40more the podcast grows, the bigger and
2:41better guests we get to bring on each
2:43and every week. So, thank you all for
2:44all the support. Let's get into the
2:46podcast. All right, welcome back to
2:47another episode. I'm fresh back from
2:49Japan. So, sorry there was no podcast
2:51last week, guys. I really am sorry.
2:53There's so much work that goes into
2:54putting out a podcast every week. I
2:55don't think you guys realize. So, I
2:56tried. It just didn't work. I had so
2:58much to catch up on. But we're back.
2:59We've got heaps of awesome e-com
3:01episodes for you. Some amazing brand
3:02builders coming over the next couple of
3:03weeks. Today, we're starting in a really
3:05with a in a really exciting spot. Davy
3:07Rooney, um as we were talking about
3:09before, I spent all of yesterday
3:10researching yourself and the brand. You
3:12must have one of the coolest, most fun
3:14brands on the market right now. Um for
3:16those that don't know Davy, you may know
3:17him as Skin Care Davy on Instagram or
3:19TikTok with his hundreds of thousands of
3:20followers. Um but he's the founder of
3:22the brand Boring Without You. Um super
3:24fun brand. Really creative products. I
3:26love your packaging. Love your branding.
3:27We'll go into all that. But first, I
3:29just want to say I know you're not in
3:30Sydney for very long. Thank you for
3:31coming and giving you a time. I'm really
3:33excited about the chat. So, yeah,
3:34welcome.
3:36Thank you for having me. I can like this
3:38is probably the most professional
3:39podcast I've been on. So, I can see the
3:42work that goes into the podcast. I see.
3:43Yeah.
3:44Um I appreciate it. But I I I genuinely
3:46really did have a lot of fun um
3:48researching your brand. I think you're
3:49very creative, clearly. The way you've
3:51marketed the brand is is quite different
3:53to other people as well. So, we're going
3:54to go into all that, a little bit of
3:56more about Davy and the brand. So, you
3:57studied cosmetic science, something
3:59you've spoken about a lot, which we'll
4:00go into is you didn't want to start a
4:01skin care brand with just a consumer's
4:03level of knowledge. So, you really did
4:05educate yourself and that's played a big
4:06role in your personal brand strategy,
4:08which we're definitely going to chat
4:10about. So, um you're stocked in hundreds
4:12of Priceline, so we'll touch on some
4:13retail stuff for everyone that's already
4:15got a brand and is kind of ready to take
4:16that leap into retail. Um but, let's
4:18kind of rewind, let's go back to the
4:20start. Walk walk through everything a
4:21little bit chronologically for now.
4:23Launched the brand, was it 2022? I I
4:25think I saw
4:26Yeah, mid-2022, yeah.
4:28Where did all that journey start?
4:29Obviously, you don't just wake up one
4:30day and you have a brand to launch. Was
4:32it year before, 2 years before? Where
4:34did you first start thinking, "Hey, I
4:35want to start a brand on my own?"
4:36Yeah, so years before, I was sitting on
4:38a tram in Melbourne, 8:00 a.m. in the
4:40morning, and um all of a sudden, my
4:42heart starts beating out of my chest,
4:44like pounding so quickly. I look down,
4:46my palms are covered in sweat. My eyes
4:49start darting across the tram looking
4:50for help,
4:51and um my breath becomes like really
4:53short, sharp, shallow. I feel like I
4:56can't suck in enough oxygen to stay
4:57conscious, and it's because I'm having a
4:59panic attack.
5:00Wow.
5:01And um I'm actually on the way to work,
5:03about to be confronted by someone who
5:05has relentlessly bullied me for the last
5:086 months.
5:09And um
5:10this was genuinely the lowest point in
5:13my life. I had thoughts that I wouldn't
5:16wish upon anyone, and um it was it was
5:18horrible.
5:20And um then I'm on this tram and I get a
5:22text um from a colleague, a different
5:25colleague, telling me not to come into
5:26work.
5:27I'm thinking, "Why would they be telling
5:29me that?"
5:29They send a follow-up text saying that
5:31Victoria's just announced the COVID-19
5:33lockdown and everyone's now required to
5:35work from home.
5:36Oh, wow. So,
5:38I get off the tram, I head home, and I
5:40have this
5:41physical escape from the bullying, but
5:43then came the social isolation, the
5:44loneliness of COVID, like many many
5:47people experienced.
5:49And during this time, I knew I needed to
5:50do something to like
5:52pull myself out of it. To to change
5:54things. And I focused on something I was
5:56really passionate about, which was
5:57skincare.
5:58So, that's when I started studying
5:59cosmetic science. And um I used to take
6:02textbooks to the park and read chapter
6:03after chapter on formulations and
6:05skincare ingredients and um skin types.
6:09And I vividly remember reading this one
6:11chapter on the five different skin
6:12types. Oily skin, sensitive skin, normal
6:16skin, dry skin, and combination skin.
6:19And that's when I had like I guess you
6:21can call it an epiphany.
6:23Um that I have combination skin, my
6:25friends have combination skin, but
6:27there's no skincare brand on the market
6:29specifically dedicated to this skin
6:31type. And we created that with Boring
6:33Without You.
6:34Yeah, I was watching through a lot of
6:36your videos. I think I saw a little
6:37snippet from one of your your decks that
6:38you presented to Priceline. You said
6:39that 70% of Australia or 70% of the
6:41world have combination skin.
6:42Yeah, so it's funny. So, in summer, 70%
6:45of people have combination skin, and
6:47winter that drops down to 50%.
6:48Cuz that goes more dry.
6:49Yeah.
6:49Yeah.
6:50Yeah.
6:50So, let's let's talk about that moment
6:52you're on the tram, your heart starts
6:53beating fast, you can't really breathe.
6:55And you realize you're having a panic
6:56attack. Was is some is is that something
6:59you've had before? Was was this the
7:01first time you had experienced this?
7:02was a new thing for me. But
7:04unfortunately, that became like a daily
7:06occurrence during that time. And um I
7:09think anyone who's ever gone through
7:11like a bullying experience it genuinely
7:15ruins your self-confidence and your
7:16self-worth. And the bully has such an
7:19effective um
7:22ability to get under your skin and make
7:24make you doubt your own ability.
7:27I just can't believe it, maybe this is
7:28naive and it just shows like I've been
7:30quite lucky with life, but like to hear
7:32that people are still bullying, you
7:34know, in the adult workplace. Like it's
7:35not when I'm at school anymore, and
7:37people still
7:38Yeah.
7:38still do things like that.
7:39Yeah, I agree.
7:41And um
7:42I guess I try to look at it with with a
7:44lens of empathy and just think these
7:46people are very very sad individuals.
7:49Yeah. And obviously did not receive
7:51enough love as a child and don't don't
7:53love themselves. So, they take it out on
7:56other people.
7:56Yeah, that really is the best way to
7:57look at them. Like it it's hard at times
7:59when you when like when you see people
8:00just post nasty comments online, you
8:01have to try and look at it with empathy
8:03because it's the classic saying hurt
8:04people hurt people. And it's like
8:06clearly if you're going to lash out and
8:07try and take other people down, how do
8:09you feel when it's you know 11:30 at
8:10night and you're sitting at home in your
8:11bedroom at dark by yourself, you know
8:13what I mean? Generally it's like they're
8:15not the people that have had the best
8:16situation themselves, but still no
8:18excuse to take that out on other people.
8:20Sounds like it was sort of a blessing in
8:21disguise the whole, you know, lockdown
8:23thing. Obviously you had to go and deal
8:24with the the social isolation. But at
8:26least to be that trigger break, that
8:27environmental shift to take you out of
8:29that space to enable you to go and work
8:31on something you're passionate about.
8:33Did you know when you realized, "Hey,
8:35I've got the time and I need something"
8:38For me anyway, like I use myself as an
8:39example. If I ever had felt like I'm in
8:40a rut, the thing that gets me out of it,
8:43if I'm just feeling down, low energy, is
8:46a new goal that I'm genuinely really
8:47excited and passionate about. For you,
8:49was have you always been really that
8:51entrepreneurial kid that you knew you
8:52always wanted to start a business? Or
8:53how did how did it all like take shape
8:55for you?
8:56Yeah, so I always knew I wanted to start
8:57a business and people always say, "Oh,
8:59start a business something you're
9:01passionate about." And for me that was
9:02skin care.
9:03Yeah.
9:03Um but I remember like as young as
9:08What were you in high school like third
9:10Well, even as young as five I used to
9:12like create a shop in our garage and
9:13knock on the neighbors' doors and get
9:15them to come around and purchase from
9:16the shop. It was just stuff It was stuff
9:18in our house that my parents were
9:19probably like, "Why the [ __ ] are you
9:20selling our stuff?"
9:22Um and then even in high school I used
9:23to buy chocolate from the supermarket on
9:25discount and store it in my locker and
9:27sell it to people at high school. But
9:29then one time my locker got broken into.
9:31Like I come back and my locker's like
9:33literally bent. All all all is gone and
9:35all the chocolates are gone. You can't
9:37go to a teacher and be like
9:39fix this because you're like illegally
9:41selling chocolate at the school. So, you
9:43one of them. I wasn't one of those
9:44people that was like, you know, that you
9:46hear the lemonade stand, you hear people
9:47taking like chocolates and and candy to
9:49school and sell them to their friends. I
9:50wasn't that. So, I'm always really
9:51interested to hear people
9:53um that have that lens that we're like
9:54always like those entrepreneurial
9:56people. So, you you you get the news,
9:58hey Dave, you don't come into work, you
10:00know, that we're going into lockdown,
10:01you got to work from home.
10:02From that point on, you probably go
10:04home. I imagine you're still quite
10:06rattled from the panic attack that
10:07you've just had. Yeah. How do you go
10:09from that point, collect yourself, and
10:11then when does it turn into an actual
10:12idea that I'm going to actually build a
10:13business in skin care? Yeah, I think for
10:15a long time I was just
10:18like a shell of myself, negative
10:20thoughts, and then when you get into
10:22that mindset, it's very easy to spiral,
10:24and then coupled with COVID, it was just
10:26a whole negative experience. Um
10:29I actually ended up moving back to New
10:31Zealand.
10:32Um
10:33and spent time with family. And then a
10:35few months after that incident on the
10:37tram, I quit my job and I went all in on
10:39boring without you.
10:40I was going to actually ask that. Um so,
10:42you were doing something, was it in
10:43media? Yes, so I used to I used to work
10:45in media. So,
10:46how do I explain this part? So,
10:49I had an incredible job in media as a
10:51radio producer. Uh I was with a show in
10:54New Zealand and they got a gig in
10:55Melbourne and I flew over with them and
10:57and did the gig there. Then I moved into
10:59a different role in the same company,
11:01more of like an advertising role, and
11:03that's when the bullying occurred. So,
11:05my background very much in media was
11:07like content, script writing, producing.
11:10Um
11:11and then but the advertising part was
11:13the
11:14unfortunate part.
11:14Where everything started to go. Yeah, I
11:15worked in advertising for a little bit
11:17before I um when I was still in the
11:18corporate world, and I do see that. I
11:20think there is um you know, if I would
11:23reflect and look around, I think there
11:24is some fragile egos in that space, you
11:25know, it's very much like
11:28everyone has a bit of a chip on their
11:29shoulder, and if they're not doing well,
11:30they like to sometimes drag other people
11:32down with them. Um so I do see that, um
11:34but you you have that trigger break, you
11:35went back home, surrounded yourself with
11:37family. I imagined even more so before
11:39even before lockdown, you moved from New
11:41Zealand over to to Melbourne, you're
11:43already going to be feeling isolated,
11:44then it just 10x's when you're locked at
11:45home by yourself.
11:47You've clearly got a a passion about
11:48skin care. You started educating
11:50yourself about formulations and all the
11:51science behind the ingredients and what
11:53goes together and if you put this
11:55together and that together, what's that
11:56going to look like? How's it going to
11:58sink in or I'm not using the correct
11:59skin care terminology.
12:01Um but when does it get to the point
12:02that you start actually drafting out a
12:05business that would become boring
12:06without you? Do you spend say 3 months,
12:086 months on pure education first or was
12:11it education with a thought and idea
12:13already of I'm going to create a
12:14combination skin care brand?
12:18I think a bit of both. So I think
12:19initially it was always I want to start
12:21a skin care brand and then it was like,
12:23holy [ __ ] I know nothing about skin
12:25care. I know a lot as a consumer, but I
12:27know nothing from like the science
12:29perspective, dermatology, skin
12:31formulation, that sort of stuff. Um and
12:33it's like
12:34you've probably seen that um
12:36what is it's like a
12:39a graph. I can't remember what it's
12:40called. It's like a graph, but it's it's
12:42ignorance at the start and then you and
12:43then you kind of you realize that you
12:45don't know the information.
12:47like um yeah, I literally was listening
12:49to like a podcast that were referencing
12:51this again recently. Um
12:53the Alex Hormozi, Steven Bartlett
12:54podcast where it's like
12:56you don't you don't realize you're bad
12:58till you have like yeah, anyway, I'm
12:59sure everyone knows what we're talking
13:00about. I don't I don't yeah.
13:01Yeah. I can't remember what the graph's
13:02called, but you're naive at first, which
13:04gives you the courage to actually pursue
13:06the goal and then you realize you don't
13:07know what you need to know.
13:09And for me, that was the point where I
13:10go, well, I don't want to be another
13:13Aussie skin care brand founder that
13:15hasn't got a qualification behind them.
13:18So I started studying cosmetic science
13:19and and
13:21during that time, I started taking
13:23everything I was learning, studying
13:24cosmetic science, communicated that
13:26online as well.
13:28And then also documented the
13:29behind-the-scenes process of starting
13:30the brand and building it from scratch.
13:32So, by the time we launched, we had
13:34thousands of followers on TikTok.
13:35Yeah. And I think as well, if you if you
13:37look at it as like a really clear point
13:39of difference, you're going to a market
13:40like skincare,
13:42how there's hundreds of brands in
13:43skincare even just in Australia.
13:44Yeah.
13:45Were you very um strategically thinking
13:48I need to have clear points of
13:49difference from the start?
13:51Yes, 100%. Yeah, yeah. So, that was our
13:53combination skin and all. So, we're the
13:55only skincare brand in the world that is
13:57dedicated solely to people with
13:59combination skin.
14:00So, what? Obviously, that's like a
14:01really like like awesome like one-liner.
14:04I'm sure there'll be people that, you
14:06know, see your success and then the
14:07other competitors will will come in and
14:09be a combination skincare brand off the
14:10back of the the the wave that you've
14:12started. Apart from that, I think like
14:13your brand is really really cool. We'll
14:15talk about that. Apart from just the
14:16physical where the only brand that
14:18specifically deals with combination
14:19skin,
14:20what do you think else comes to mind
14:22when I say what makes Boring Without You
14:23different? Because come across very
14:25different to a lot of other brands on
14:26the market.
14:27So, when I was studying cosmetic
14:29science, one of the first things I
14:30learned is that brands use what they
14:32call tip-in or marketing story
14:34ingredients. And it's essentially an
14:36ingredient added at such a low
14:37percentage just so the brand can put it
14:39on the label and and market it.
14:41There's no evidence that this does
14:43anything for your skin.
14:45And when I learned this, I was shocked.
14:47I was like, "We're not We're not doing
14:48that at all." So, we we take it one step
14:51further. Not only do we not do that, but
14:53we tell people the percentage of the
14:55ingredients. And we actually put that on
14:56the packaging and on the website. And
14:58now we're even taking it one step
15:00further and we're doing clinical studies
15:02on the final formula. Because it's fine
15:04to have concentrated ingredients at at
15:06at a proven dose, but you want to test
15:08the final formula as well.
15:10Yeah. Another thing as well that and I
15:12had it on my list to ask you later in
15:13the podcast, but while we're on some of
15:14the things you do different, I couldn't
15:16believe it. I think it was I don't know
15:17if it was an article I read or a podcast
15:18I was listening with you. You give after
15:21about 5 weeks after purchase, all of
15:22your customers get an email and they get
15:24an opportunity to book in a call with
15:25you. Is that like every customer gets
15:27sent that email or is it like one in 10,
15:30one in
15:30No, every every customer.
15:32heard of that. That's That's like yeah.
15:34Yeah, so every customer gets the
15:36opportunity to book a 15-minute call and
15:37it's pretty much my It's my opportunity.
15:39I'm the grateful one to get direct
15:42feedback from customers. And I I
15:44literally ask every single person, "What
15:46don't you like? What can we improve on?"
15:48Um and sometimes my whole I do one day a
15:51week and sometimes my whole Wednesday is
15:53filled up back-to-back with those calls.
15:55It's all about like you hear Gary V and
15:57and people like that talk about scaling
15:58the unscalable. Like that's again like
16:01obviously, you know, 5 years from now
16:02maybe you won't be able to do every
16:03single customer, but the point of
16:04difference you'll have and the knowledge
16:06you'll have and the relationship and
16:07community you would have built with
16:08your, you know, biggest fans over the
16:10first few years of your business will
16:11set you apart and I don't think there's
16:12many other founders in the space that
16:14would be like, "You know what? I'm going
16:15to go and give a whole day a week to
16:17doing that."
16:18Also, the amount of people that jump on
16:19the phone and go, "Oh, I'm actually
16:22talking to Davey. I thought it was going
16:23to be one of your employees." And I'm
16:25like, "I don't have employees yet."
16:27Um well, let's talk about like putting
16:29the brand together. It doesn't look like
16:31it was uh a cheap launch. It looked like
16:33you guys approached everything really
16:35well from the start. You mentioned you
16:37quit your job in the lead like while you
16:39were working on the business so you
16:40could go all in. How did you fund a
16:42business like this without, you know,
16:44quitting your job? Like I said, it
16:46didn't look like an extremely cheap
16:47launch when you're I know when you're
16:48customizing like products from scratch,
16:51there's generally some reasonably big
16:53MOQs with that. How did you go about
16:55that? And more importantly, because a
16:56lot of people get stuck here, this is
16:57why I'm um asking. It's good to like
17:00have the idea, "I'm going to start this
17:01business and invest this money I've
17:02saved." But when the big invoices start
17:04coming and you've got to actually start
17:05paying them, it messes with your head
17:07sometimes and people that's when they're
17:08like they get,
17:10"Oh, do I really want to do this? This
17:11is like a $10,000 invoice. This is like
17:14half of the money I got in the bank." Or
17:16how
17:16did you like work through those moments?
17:18Did you have any of that like self-doubt
17:20and fear
17:21that made you question that when the
17:23when it's come to actually pay the
17:25bills?
17:25Of course.
17:27Still have that now.
17:27Mhm.
17:28Um but I think the way you overcome that
17:30is by saying this is a learning
17:32experience. So, I'm I'm investing in my
17:34learning.
17:35Yeah.
17:35Um and if it doesn't if it doesn't come
17:37off, who cares, you know? Um
17:40in terms of actually gathering the cash,
17:42multiple different ways. Um so, I kept
17:45working. I was doing copywriting at the
17:46time, so self-funded.
17:47Yeah.
17:48I borrowed money from people. And then
17:49during that time cuz it was COVID, I
17:51don't know if I should say this, but
17:53Um
17:53you could you were allowed to draw out
17:55money from your super. So,
17:57I
17:57Who cares about super? That's so far in
17:59advance, right? Like
18:00Yeah.
18:01Yeah.
18:01So, I used that I used that money as
18:03well.
18:03Yeah, well smart. Like I think it's it's
18:04it's clearly paid off now. One thing I
18:06was surprised, I know it's probably just
18:08cuz I've listened to so many podcasts
18:09and you so many stories. I thought when
18:11before I started researching, yeah, I
18:14thought you were going to be another one
18:15of the the the people that said, "Oh,
18:17you know, I just started the this
18:18Instagram page or this TikTok
18:20and then it built up a lot of traction
18:22and then I thought, oh, maybe I'm going
18:23to do something with this and it started
18:24a brand off the back of it." You're
18:26actually the opposite. You started
18:27working on the brand prior to even
18:30starting your page and then you you
18:32decided that was going to be a big
18:34driver for you to, you know, build the
18:36awareness, build the hype before the
18:37brand. Talk to me about the strategy
18:39behind that because I still
18:41I still hear people when when they when
18:43they talk about what's working in
18:44e-commerce or in in the startup world,
18:46um and you just look at some of the
18:48amazing success stories that we've seen
18:49around Australia over the last couple of
18:50years, brands that have really lent into
18:52founder-led content and personal brand.
18:55Um and some people just say cuz I know I
18:57know from my research about you as well,
18:59you you go on the record saying, you
19:00know, you never really wanted to be on
19:01camera all the time and be the center of
19:03attention. But do you think you your
19:04brand would have been in the position
19:06you are today if you didn't
19:08go heavy into the founder-focused
19:10content, into the like personal branding
19:12strategy.
19:13Yeah, I mean even doing things like this
19:14makes me uncomfortable. So, I hate being
19:16on camera.
19:17I was a I was a producer behind the
19:19scenes for a reason. Um but yeah, it
19:21very much was an intentional strategy.
19:23And it's funny you mentioned Gary V
19:25before. He was going on and on about
19:28TikTok in 2021. He's like, "Get on
19:30TikTok. Get on TikTok." And that's when
19:32brands kind of started blowing up was
19:342021 and we hadn't even launched yet.
19:35And I was like, "We need to get on
19:36TikTok." He's like, "What the [ __ ] do
19:38you talk about?"
19:39Yeah.
19:39We hadn't even launched the brand. Oh,
19:41the behind-the-scenes process of
19:42launching the brand. Um and then yeah,
19:44it was it was very much intentional and
19:46you you take people on a journey. And
19:49people are invested not only in the
19:50brand but in you as an individual. And
19:53then in addition to that, once I started
19:55taking my learnings from studying
19:56cosmetic science and communicating that
19:58online,
19:59I'm not only entertaining people but I'm
20:01then giving them value. And then as soon
20:04as you give people value, they feel
20:06subconsciously as if they owe you back.
20:08Mhm.
20:08So, then they sometimes purchase your
20:10product.
20:11What was How long did it take for you to
20:13start getting traction? Because I know
20:15some people you've you've worked behind
20:17the scenes, you're scripting, you're
20:18planning all this stuff. You probably
20:19got a bit of a good formula for what
20:21sort of content can work. Did it happen
20:23really quickly for you? Did it take a
20:25little bit of time to figure out your
20:27style of content that people really
20:29responded to? What was that like?
20:30It it took a long time. At first, my
20:33videos were horrible. Like you can't
20:34find them now cuz I've gone I've gone
20:36I've gone hidden them all. Um
20:38Cuz I scroll all the way back and I'm
20:39like, "Shit, he was good from the
20:40start."
20:42So, yeah, on on TikTok it definitely was
20:45a massive learning phase and a learning
20:47curve. And then once I found my groove
20:49and found the the type of content that
20:50people resonate with, then it was just
20:52rinse and repeat. Um but even even now
20:55it's still learning and evolving and
20:57sometimes a video doesn't perform and
20:58you have to question why it doesn't
20:59perform. Um but the fortunate thing was
21:02I didn't do anything on Instagram for a
21:04long time because there was just this
21:08stigma around Instagram. I was like,
21:09"Oh, people I know are on there. I'm
21:11People are going to judge me."
21:12Yeah.
21:13Um so, it wasn't until I had really
21:15finessed the content style that I
21:17launched on Instagram. And then within 6
21:19months on Instagram had like 200,000
21:21followers.
21:21Yeah, cuz most people have more
21:23followers on TikTok, but you actually
21:24it's you started on TikTok, you've got a
21:26150 or it's a 100 something thousand,
21:29but you've got even more on Instagram,
21:30which is like generally it's harder to
21:32acquire followers on Instagram.
21:33Yeah, so I think my theory is that
21:36TikTok like flags you or your account
21:40for creating [ __ ] content.
21:41Okay, yeah.
21:42It's flagged me from the start and then
21:44I slowly kind of built it up, but I'm
21:45still flagged, so
21:47So, let me ask you this. You You said it
21:48took like maybe 6 months to really find
21:50a groove with that. How do you keep
21:52going in the first say month when the
21:54content's not performing as well as you
21:56you like because that's when most people
21:57give up. Like cuz some people see, "Oh,
21:59this brand started and their second
22:01video got 100,000 views. That's how it's
22:02meant to be." Well, for some people it
22:04is and brilliant, but if it's not you
22:08you can't give up just because you
22:09didn't have success in the first week,
22:10in the first month, in the first 2
22:11months.
22:14We had We had We spent all our money on
22:17developing the products and the branding
22:19and stuff. So, we had no money for
22:20marketing. So, it was either do this or
22:23do
22:23Do this or fail.
22:24Yeah.
22:25So, you just have to keep going.
22:26Exactly. And that's that's the position
22:28so many people are in regardless of how
22:30much they've spent on the product.
22:31They're like, "Do you have a lot of
22:32money for paid ads right now?" Yes or
22:33no. If you do, awesome. That's going to
22:35be a way to to grow a lot quicker and to
22:36get data quicker because unlike organic
22:39content, you can make 30 videos and post
22:41them every day a month, you're not
22:42guaranteed to get any sort of reach. If
22:43they're good videos, you'll get a lot.
22:45And your value that you'll get back for
22:47your time is going to be highly worth
22:48it, but if you're still figuring it out,
22:51you know, can be really easy to get
22:52discouraged. Thing with paid media, as
22:54you would know now, like you're
22:55guaranteed to get your reach, right?
22:58But I also reckon that practicing
23:00organic has given us the ability to
23:03execute paid better.
23:04Of course.
23:05that organic strategy.
23:06Yes, 100%.
23:08Not only from acquiring customers
23:09organically, but the ability to learn
23:11how to create content that resonates
23:12with people.
23:13Well, you know, 90% of paid media now is
23:15like how good's the content, right? It's
23:17even probably even more than that. Like
23:19Like when I started 7-8 years ago, it
23:21was more about the structure of the
23:22account and you could day trade and all
23:23this stuff. Now it's like just create
23:25epic content and Facebook will do the
23:27rest.
23:28Fingers crossed.
23:29Fingers crossed. Well, you know, it's
23:30it's still the definitely the biggest
23:31driver. Um let me ask you this.
23:34You've experienced bullying um in
23:35different stages throughout your life.
23:37Do you think going through that has in
23:39any way benefited you and given you some
23:41sort of a thicker skin to be able to
23:43deal with the constant day-to-day stress
23:45and pressure that's involved with
23:46running your own business?
23:47Um probably. I've never actually really
23:49thought about it like that. It's
23:51definitely given me a lot of a lot more
23:52empathy for people and a lot more
23:54empathy for people who are going through
23:56that. And if if if I was ever to as
23:58boring without you expands and get more
24:00employees, if that was ever to be a
24:01situation in the company, I would come
24:03down so hard on it because it's just not
24:05acceptable.
24:07Um in terms of like building up my
24:09resilience, for sure it 100% would have
24:11impacted that. Um but I think more than
24:14anything running a business and
24:15constantly get getting [ __ ] thrown at
24:17you, that has built my resilience.
24:20What's what if anything, like what's the
24:22thing that stands out um as the thing
24:24that surprised you most that you kind of
24:26weren't really expecting about being in
24:27business for yourself?
24:30That's a really good question.
24:34Um
24:36how lonely it would feel sometimes.
24:39I think as well when you're working by
24:41yourself a lot of the time, you don't
24:43have anyone to bounce ideas off or
24:46um
24:47even even your partner or your best
24:49friend or something, they don't have
24:51sometimes the mental capacity to
24:54be in the weeds with you.
24:56Um so it is quite a lonely journey. And
24:58even if they're willing to
25:00if they don't have the shared experience
25:02to really understand it, is it is it is
25:03a different thing? Was there ever the
25:05consideration to to start a business
25:07with a business partner?
25:08So, I originally did.
25:09Okay.
25:10I originally had a business partner and
25:12um, it didn't end up working out and I
25:14bought him out of the business. Um, we
25:17just weren't we weren't aligned on the
25:19amount of work that needed to go into it
25:21and also um, he didn't have the same
25:23passion for skin care that I had. So, we
25:25decided to part ways.
25:27So,
25:28even even during that process, it still
25:30felt somewhat lonely because I wasn't
25:33getting that
25:34same
25:35back or the excitement or the thinking
25:37of ideas and bouncing ideas. Like
25:39sometimes I would feel as though
25:42if I came with an idea, it would almost
25:43feel
25:45uh, it would fall flat, you know? Cuz I
25:46I wasn't getting feedback.
25:48So, as someone um, that's sort of
25:50experienced business as a solo founder
25:53and you know, at the start with
25:55co-founder. I speak to people all the
25:56time. People apply for e-commerce
25:57mentoring with me all the time. And one
25:59of the most common questions I get is,
26:01should I do this by myself or should I
26:02do this with my friend XYZ?
26:06What's your opinion on the on the pros
26:07and cons about solo entrepreneurship and
26:10starting it with a co-founder?
26:12I would say um,
26:14a co-founder probably trumps it if it's
26:16the right co-founder.
26:17Yeah.
26:18And
26:20my recommendation would be you should
26:22have worked with the person in a
26:23professional working capacity before you
26:25start business with them.
26:26Mhm.
26:27Because you don't know anything about
26:28their work ethic, what they're good at,
26:30the skills that they're going to bring
26:31to the table. So, that's essential.
26:35100%. I think that's a really good
26:36point. Um, I want to talk to you about
26:38the branding cuz I'm we're still I I I
26:40like to I want to go through this whole
26:41process with you because I think what
26:42you've built is really really cool. Um,
26:44but the branding is like one of the
26:45things that catches your eyes the most,
26:47right? Um, obviously the colors are
26:49awesome, um, but like something that I
26:52love so much is your milk serum. Isn't
26:54like a milk Isn't like a milk carton?
26:56Where did you get all these ideas? Was
26:57it from you? Did you work with a
26:58branding agency? Was it you and then you
27:01leverage like a graphic designer? How
27:02did you put all this branding together?
27:03We just have the most incredible graphic
27:06designer in New Zealand. She is
27:08phenomenal. She came up with that milk
27:09carton idea.
27:10So cool, hey.
27:10And um, all all the colorways, all the
27:13the fonts, everything is her.
27:15Wow.
27:15And she's phenomenal.
27:16Yeah.
27:17We're so lucky to have her. And um, but
27:19originally we were actually called a
27:21different name.
27:21I heard that.
27:22Yeah, we lost the trademark to it
27:24because we we wanted to be called
27:25prickly pear, which our company name
27:27still is. You can't trademark that cuz
27:29it's also a skin care ingredient. So we
27:31lost the trademark to that. We had to
27:32rebrand, redesign, reposition the whole
27:35business before we even launched. Spent
27:37like thousands of dollars doing that.
27:39And originally we weren't working with
27:41Ash and then we switched to working with
27:43her. And she
27:45revolutionized the whole brand before
27:47you even launched.
27:48completely different for pure prickly
27:49pear?
27:50Yeah.
27:50Do you prefer boring without you to
27:52that?
27:52Yeah.
27:53So it's like, I'm sure at the moment
27:54where you get the ruling you can't
27:55trademark this, you've already spent
27:57thousands and months and months and
27:58months working on it. You don't really
28:01You're not really happy about it at that
28:02stage, but when you you know, these
28:03things come up, you know,
28:05some people believe it, some people
28:06don't, but like everything happens for a
28:07reason and like it's not a rejection,
28:09it's a redirection or if something comes
28:10up. And even if that's not the case,
28:13I just feel like it's the better mindset
28:14to have, right? Cuz you got to you got
28:16to keep moving forward. If you can look
28:17for the positive and look for the lesson
28:18in things, you genuinely because like
28:20half of the battle in business is like
28:22managing yourself, your energy, your
28:23motivation, how you're feeling, right?
28:26How how did you feel at that moment when
28:28you just realized
28:29you spent thousands, you know, it's all
28:31completely like self-funded, like you
28:33cut into your super for this
28:35and you got to spend it, you know, start
28:36the whole process again. What was your
28:37mind like at that point?
28:39Yeah, I think I viewed it as an
28:40opportunity to
28:41to get the branding that we wanted.
28:43Good.
28:43Um,
28:44originally we tried to to work the old
28:46branding into the new name and it just
28:48wasn't happening and I was like
28:50[ __ ] it, we need to do something else.
28:52So Ash is Ash like a person you'd work
28:54with before? How did you find them?
28:55So I worked I worked with her in media
28:56in New Zealand and she's phenomenal.
28:59Like everyone raves about her.
29:01Um
29:01For those that haven't seen go go jump
29:03on their web Your website is sick as
29:04well.
29:05Yeah, so we we didn't launch with that.
29:07That was something that um Manon
29:09if you launched with that.
29:10After after we did Shark Tank Manon
29:12helped with that new website and he's
29:14he's incredible as well.
29:15Yeah, 100%. Um so let's talk about that
29:17pre-launch phase. Again, for anyone
29:18looking for really cool branding I think
29:20go and go and have a look. You'll see
29:21they do things quite different. Who were
29:22some inspirations for you? Was there
29:24anyone like did you start with like some
29:26mood board inspiration for this? Like
29:28how did it you know?
29:29Yeah, um
29:31I can't remember their names
29:32specifically but from from like a brand
29:34perspective Topicals skin care they're
29:36really strong. Um just like in in terms
29:39of creating a vibe.
29:40Um Dieux d i e u x they're really good
29:43as well um from like a
29:46um brand ethos perspective. Uh visual
29:48identity um In Beauty Project we took a
29:51lot of inspiration from them like the
29:52bright colors.
29:53Mhm. Are these mainly US-based brands or
29:55yeah? Again, you just look to like the
29:57US look to Europe. Again, you're going
29:59to get things that aren't being done in
30:00Australia. You can get some really cool
30:01inspiration.
30:03But that pre-launch phase I want to talk
30:04about that. The product you've been
30:06working on. How long did it take to get
30:07the products right? Cuz you as you said
30:08I know it gets to certain stages and you
30:11know things can all go right or they can
30:12all go wrong.
30:13Yeah, it took like a between a year and
30:15a half and two years.
30:16Wow.
30:16Yeah. But part of that is cuz we didn't
30:18know what we were doing.
30:19We were learning as we go.
30:21Um and then you make mistakes and you
30:23have to um pivot and then like we went
30:26through like 50 different iterations of
30:27our first product.
30:28Wow. That was the the two-in-one mask?
30:30Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for for those who
30:32don't know we have a multi-mask which
30:33has two formulas in one jar and it's
30:35designed to target different parts of
30:37your face. So the butter controls excess
30:39oil and removes blackheads and the jelly
30:42soothes, calms, and hydrates dry parts
30:44of your face.
30:45That's cool. I Is there not Has anyone
30:46else ever done that? Is the first time
30:48I'd ever seen anything like that?
30:49Um people have done like a two-in-one
30:51concept before, but nothing specifically
30:54like marketed towards combination skin.
30:56is for this part, this is for this part.
30:58Um yeah, really cool. Like really
30:59innova- innovative. It's like I love it
31:02when brands like approach something
31:03different, particularly when you're
31:04going into skin care or fashion or
31:06something that's so saturated. I think
31:08you need to look for these things to
31:09differentiate yourselves and kind of
31:11get, you know, get people's attention.
31:12And I think the key is not
31:14differentiating too much to the point
31:15where something feels unfamiliar. It
31:17needs to be just What's the tiniest
31:19little tweak you can make to make
31:21something better, but it's still very
31:22familiar to a customer.
31:24Talk to me about like your key customer
31:25demographics. Is this when you started
31:28the brand, obviously or you have these
31:29hypotheses of who's going to be your,
31:31you know, core demographics? Was it what
31:33you were expecting or was it different?
31:35Explain that.
31:36Yeah, so I've got a lot of thoughts
31:38around this. So originally we launched
31:40we're like, "We're going to be a Gen Z
31:41brand." And that was kind of like the
31:42the ethos behind it. Um
31:44but Gen Z don't have a lot of money.
31:47So the main people that buy our products
31:49is very much 25 to 35.
31:51It's like the millennials, yeah.
31:52Um and they're the people that follow me
31:55on social media. They're the people that
31:56really resonate with the content. And
31:58also main people that have combination
31:59skin are 20 to 35. So it's that that key
32:02demo there.
32:04But we also have a lot of people with
32:05more mature skin that follow me on
32:07social media. So I think a lot of moms
32:09really enjoy watching my content, and
32:10they purchase Boring Without You as
32:12well.
32:12Yeah.
32:13And it's funny cuz when you're perimen-
32:14perimenopausal or menopausal, you
32:16actually develop combination skin as
32:17well. So we kind of have those two key
32:20target demographics.
32:22Yeah. Um
32:23yeah, I was I was It's always
32:24interesting to hear people talk about
32:25that. You're so often your hypotheses at
32:28the start are proven wrong. And I think
32:30a big one that I've heard on the podcast
32:31now multiple times, you think your core
32:33demographic is uh younger than it is.
32:36It's a common mistake I see
32:38entrepreneurs make. Everyone's like,
32:39"Oh,
32:39I want to have a really cool Gen Z
32:40brand." Well, it's like
32:42these these kids don't have that much
32:43money. You know what I mean?
32:44I also reckon if you're doing Meta ads,
32:47Meta has a really um
32:50a really um mature audience.
32:52Mhm.
32:52Like there's a lot of 60-year-olds,
32:5450-year-olds, 40-year-olds on Meta.
32:56Yeah, massively.
32:58Massively. I think it's like a a big
33:00learning I've got just from
33:01conversations over the last few months
33:03um about going after some of the older
33:05demographic and you might be might be
33:06pleasantly surprised. Um but let's talk
33:08about like the the pre-launch hype.
33:10You're going to say something?
33:11Well, I just got a question for you.
33:12What's your thoughts around
33:14um
33:17So, you have you have this brand, right?
33:18But then you have a lot of older
33:20customers or more mature customers that
33:21purchase the product.
33:23Would you Do you change the marketing to
33:25cater to those customers or do you keep
33:27the marketing the same because there's
33:28some aspirational aspect that they're
33:31that they're already buying the product,
33:32you know, and they're resonating with
33:33the product and the brand already?
33:34Well, I think what what you could do it
33:36to really test the hypothesis is just
33:37make some landing pages and like make
33:39some different content and run them to
33:40different landing pages and see what
33:41works best. If I look back at the
33:43history of our brand, I would say like
33:45the 20 to 30 market has made up a bigger
33:49percentage of our customers. But then if
33:51I look at say the 30 to 50 or like 35 to
33:5445,
33:55um while they might
33:57in history have been a fewer percentage
33:58of our customers, we acquire them for
34:01cheaper because like they make more
34:03sense as our customers. Like they're
34:05more about logical decisions, saving
34:07myself time, saving myself money. Um so,
34:10they actually do respond better. So,
34:11we're having a lot of internal
34:12conversations about hm, how do we
34:14potentially pivot the brand to speak
34:16more to them? We're starting that by by
34:18doing some landing pages and and testing
34:19some different styles of content. But I
34:21I think until you test, like it's going
34:22to be a really, you know, it's one of
34:24those like one of those decisions to
34:26make. You're not going to know until you
34:27try.
34:28Hm. And then do you change the imagery,
34:30change the language?
34:31change
34:32yeah.
34:33And then it's like, okay, once you've
34:34tested both and you see, okay, who's
34:36actually responding to
34:38what better,
34:39what does the whole brand come back to?
34:41That's the question at the end. Like,
34:42how do you How do you But then But
34:44you also, with branding, like if you try
34:46and be something everyone,
34:48you kind of get lost in between. So,
34:49it's like, how do you make those
34:50decisions? I think it's a probably one
34:52of the hardest decisions to make, you
34:53know, rebranding or or not even a
34:55complete rebrand, but pivoting towards
34:57different demographics. Um I see a lot
34:59of really, you know, amazing
35:00entrepreneurs struggling with this this
35:01Not struggling, but like really
35:03contemplating that. So, what's your
35:05thoughts?
35:05Well, that was one of the things so cuz
35:07I was presenting to Priceline staff,
35:09like training them about our products
35:10yesterday. And one One of the things one
35:12of the people said to me was, "I thought
35:15this was just for young people."
35:17And as I'm doing the presentation,
35:18they're realizing that all ages can use
35:21the product and see massive benefits
35:22from that.
35:23Yeah.
35:23Um and I said to her, "Well, why do you
35:25think it's just for young people?" And
35:26she said, "Cuz it's bright and it's
35:27colorful." So, if that's an instant
35:30reaction from a Priceline staff member,
35:31imagine what customers are thinking when
35:33they go in store.
35:34I You definitely see the visual identity
35:36of the brand and you think younger, but
35:37then you see your content and you kind
35:39of think older.
35:40Exactly. And I think maybe there's a
35:42disconnect as well.
35:44Well, maybe Yeah, do you think there's
35:44some 45-year-old woman who sees it and
35:47just instantly assumes it's not for me?
35:49Potentially, yeah.
35:49Mhm.
35:50But then it's like, how do you stand out
35:51on shelf in Priceline amongst all these
35:53clinical white and blue brands?
35:55Yeah.
35:56you be different?
35:57Yeah.
35:57So, I think it's a balance of still
35:59being bright and colorful, but
36:00delivering our um evidence-based,
36:02clinically proven um scientific formulas
36:05in a way that still resonates with
36:07customers.
36:07Who's booking more calls? Like, who are
36:08you speaking to more do you think? The
36:09younger or the slightly older
36:10demographic?
36:11Older people book more calls.
36:13Yeah, I would assume so.
36:14But that Is that a bias that I have of
36:16like, oh, okay, it's the older people
36:18booking or Are they Are there way more
36:20older customers? So, we're digging We're
36:21digging into that at the moment. And um
36:24yeah, it's something that I'm I'm trying
36:25to learn more about.
36:26Yeah.
36:27Um that's really cool. It's really
36:28exciting um to be in a position like
36:31with a brand like with that you have so
36:33much repeat business. You have the
36:34opportunity to really learn so much from
36:36your customers.
36:37Um so let's talk about, you know, the
36:39launch.
36:41You know, you clearly said from the
36:42start you spent all the money on the
36:44product and the branding and like all
36:45the packaging and everything. So a big
36:47part of your I imagine your launch
36:49strategy was that like building up all
36:50the hype organically.
36:52Yeah.
36:52What did the month leading up to launch
36:54day look like? And were you doing any
36:56paid things, any influencers on launch
36:57day? Talk me through that lead up like
36:59that month leading up to launch and then
37:00what you did on launch day to drive as
37:02many people to the website as possible.
37:04You're testing my memory now.
37:05It's only 2 years, it's 2 and 1/2 years
37:06ago.
37:07but I don't know why I have a [ __ ]
37:08memory. Um we just we just solely
37:11focused on email and organic content.
37:14Um and we did we did pre-sale so that we
37:17had uh some money in the bank to pay our
37:20suppliers.
37:20Yeah.
37:21Um and then I think that pre-sale it
37:23wasn't anything massive. It was like
37:255,000. We made $5,000.
37:27Yeah.
37:27Um and then when we officially launched
37:29I think we made like $10,000.
37:31So what
37:32you said you focused on organic and um
37:35email. Were you doing things to
37:36incentivize people leaving their emails
37:38with you in the in the lead up?
37:40Yeah, we had a competition they could
37:41win like a $500 Mecca voucher or
37:43something. Yeah.
37:44And then beyond that you have your
37:45pre-sale, you get some money. How are
37:47you feeling with like 5,000 pre-sale?
37:49Are you like this is the best thing
37:50ever? Like I've made money for myself
37:52like outside of the system for the first
37:53time? Are you like [ __ ] I thought it was
37:55going to be more. What were the honest
37:56thoughts going through your mind?
37:57it was going to be more.
37:59Yeah, I I genuinely thought it was going
38:01to be more and I was like [ __ ] we got to
38:02keep working hard.
38:03Yeah, it's not easy, hey?
38:04Um what was like and and we look at the
38:06first year?
38:07Oh sorry, can I just say on that we
38:09didn't do a good enough job educating
38:11people about the product before we
38:12launched. So we educated people on the
38:14brand, the behind-the-scenes journey.
38:16And then when we launched that was the
38:17first time people heard about the
38:18product.
38:19how it works.
38:20Yeah. And so I I learned from that and
38:22then when we launched our additional
38:23products last year, I spent 6 months
38:26educating people on the ingredients, the
38:28products, the skin concerns, why they
38:30need those products to treat those skin
38:31concerns. So, by the time we launched,
38:33they were prepped and ready to go.
38:35Yeah.
38:35And that paid dividends.
38:36Massively, I would imagine. Um
38:39first year is Shark Tank in the first
38:42year? Was that in the second year? When
38:43did Shark Tank happen?
38:44Yeah, so launched 2022, then Shark Tank
38:46was filmed in May 2023, and aired in
38:49September 2023.
38:51So, that first year was pre-Shark Tank.
38:54What did the marketing strategy or the
38:55main marketing channels look like in
38:57that first year?
38:58Just Tik Tok.
38:59Just Tik Tok?
39:00Tik Tok, email.
39:01That was it.
39:02Didn't even do much paid stuff for the
39:03first year?
39:04Didn't do any paid.
39:05Wow.
39:05So, when I went on Shark Tank, our
39:07revenue Our revenue in that first year
39:08was 130 grand, and that was just solely
39:12organic.
39:12All organic.
39:13Yeah. Yeah.
39:14So crazy, I have this conversation with
39:16Joe all the time and and and brands all
39:17the time. Like, obviously paid is like
39:20it is like it's like sort of the
39:21shortcut, it's easy. If you can get a
39:22product with the right margin, then you
39:23can profitably run ads from day one,
39:26you're like in a really good position.
39:27But, realistically, you can't do that
39:28with every product. Um so, if you're a
39:31founder that can create good content and
39:32take people on that journey, and build
39:34content and tell a story, it sets you up
39:36really strongly. I guess, you know,
39:38people could just go watch a lot of your
39:39videos and learn from that. If you If
39:40you could distill
39:42a couple of key learnings about how you
39:44or a new founder could approach organic
39:46content to try and get people bought
39:48into the journey, and potentially turn
39:50them into customers down the line.
39:52What's a few key lessons you've learned
39:53about creating organic content, with the
39:55end division where it might not be
39:56today, it might be in a month, 2 months,
39:576 months, to potentially turn into
39:59customers?
40:00So, what I like to do is I like to
40:01script out my content fully before I
40:04film it, before I voice over it. And
40:06I'll go through it so many times and be
40:07like, what words can I cut?
40:09And it's literally, can you tell the
40:10same story with the same impact with
40:12less words?
40:13Yes.
40:13And then that's that's what you need to
40:15be doing. And then a lot of time I'll
40:16write the full script before even
40:18writing the hook.
40:19Mhm. The hook's like the last thing I
40:20write. And I'll workshop the hook 10
40:22different times. And I'll even tell
40:24people, "Do you think this is a strong
40:25enough hook?" I'll message my partner,
40:26"Do you think this is a strong enough
40:27hook?" And he'll say, "No."
40:30And I'll have to rework it. And that
40:32hook is the It's not just the written
40:34hook, it's also visually what's
40:36happening on the screen. And are you
40:38building curiosity with the content? Are
40:40you Are you
40:42uh
40:43wiring something in someone's brain that
40:44makes them think, "I need to know what's
40:47happening next. I need to know what the
40:48outcome of this is."
40:50Um whether that's giving value or
40:51whether that's hooking them in with a
40:52story.
40:54Um and then something else I like to do,
40:56say it's a minute-long video, I like to
40:57do a second hook at the 20-second mark
40:59or the 30-second mark that re-hooks
41:01people through the content and gets them
41:03watching to the end.
41:05Um Could you give an example of of of
41:07that? I know I'm really putting you on
41:08the spot, so if you can't, it's all
41:09good.
41:09Yeah, so a second hook might be, "But
41:11then this happened." Or um
41:12"But I didn't think this would happen."
41:16Sorry, smart.
41:18Um so would you say just like in hearing
41:20you explain that, preparation is really
41:22key?
41:24In terms of like the pre-planning out
41:26before you start filming? Cuz you you
41:27hear a lot of people, it's all about
41:29volume, not quality. Where do you
41:31Uh it's all about quality.
41:33Because I was doing volume at the start
41:34on TikTok, but I only started seeing
41:36results when I focused on quality. I was
41:38trying to do three videos a day, and I
41:39was like, "These videos are [ __ ]
41:40shit." And only when I started focusing
41:43on good videos that Sometimes I used to
41:45spend 6 hours editing a video. That
41:47doesn't include the the scripting, the
41:49researching, all of that.
41:51Um
41:52So yeah, I focus I I would focus on
41:54quality, but
41:56you Sometimes you don't know what
41:58quality is until you make that quality
42:00video.
42:01Um
42:02But you can always
42:03like see what quality is by looking at
42:05other people
42:06100% done really well with
42:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're so right. Yeah.
42:10And um
42:11Oh, what was your question before that?
42:13It was
42:14Uh some of the
42:15like some of the lessons that you've
42:16taken away from like building organic
42:19content in a way that can convert
42:20customers down the line. So, your first
42:22one was like the preparation, the
42:23structure of the actual videos.
42:25Structure seems really, really
42:26important.
42:27Yeah, so what I come from like a script
42:28writing, copywriting background. So,
42:30that's my forte.
42:32Some people can pick up a camera and
42:33tell a story off the cuff. That's not
42:35me. So, it's about knowing your
42:36strength. And for me, I can create a
42:38really strong script and um and do a
42:41good voiceover. So, that's what I lean
42:43into.
42:44Let me ask you this and it's a tough
42:45question.
42:46Um it's a tough question.
42:51How do you So, if you look at your
42:54content from the first 6 months
42:56and you're like, this is [ __ ] and you
42:57can tell yourself it's [ __ ] Like, where
42:59do you think the ability for someone
43:01who's new in organic content to to
43:04realize that, hey, this isn't like this
43:06is someone that I've that's really
43:07inspirational. This is they get like
43:10really good results. They get hundreds
43:11of thousands of views on their video.
43:12I'm not expecting to be like that now,
43:14but it's like how do you see that and
43:16see what they're doing and be honest
43:18with yourself at the start and have the
43:21vision that this is actually crap cuz I
43:23see a lot of people
43:24um and they'll be like, I've tried
43:25organic content. You look at their first
43:27like um you know, 30 videos or whatever
43:29and it's like,
43:30now look at If I compare them to your
43:32videos, it's like, can you not see the
43:34difference in Like, where did you Is
43:36that like a natural thing that you think
43:38you need to be able to do it or do you
43:40think it's like a mindset thing where
43:41you have to like really look for the
43:43[ __ ] in your own work? Like, how do you
43:45see the difference between content that
43:48isn't working and the content that does
43:50and try and take the lessons from that?
43:52I think some of it is obvious. Some of
43:55it, if you study good content enough,
43:57you're going to see the trends and
43:58you're going to see what works and what
43:59doesn't work. But then, some of it is
44:01not as obvious and you need someone
44:03who's objective to point it out.
44:05Yeah. And um that's why reaching out to
44:07people who create really good content
44:09and asking them for advice. Like even
44:11today I do that. I reached out to
44:13Britney Saunders the other day.
44:14got to be one of the best content
44:15creators in business in in Australia,
44:17right?
44:17um she's a [ __ ] legend. She jumped on
44:19a call with me, spent an hour talking me
44:22through how my content can improve.
44:24For free.
44:25Yeah.
44:25And um it was phenomenal. I had so many
44:28takeaways and so many good lessons from
44:29that. But uh even now I struggle to
44:32objectively see what I need to be doing
44:34better.
44:35It's difficult when you're so close to
44:36it as well, right? You kind of um
44:39So so let's break down some of the key
44:41elements that you've already mentioned.
44:42So like this like having the script
44:45prior and then
44:47like trying to trim the fat. How do I
44:48say this message as powerfully and as
44:50articulately as possible in as little
44:52words as possible and not lose the
44:53effect. The hook is like you've said the
44:55most important part, potentially even
44:57having a second hook 20 seconds in to
44:59make them listen to the end.
45:01Make the hook about the audience. Don't
45:04make it about yourself. That's selfish.
45:06So using words like you.
45:07Yeah.
45:08Make people watch content they want to
45:10be influenced, affected, and they want
45:12to learn something from the content. So
45:14make it about them.
45:15So give me an an example of a hook
45:17about them and a a hook that would be
45:19selfish and probably not going to work
45:20as well.
45:21Um
45:23So uh a
45:25a hook that is selfish is um we just
45:27sold out.
45:29And then a hook that's about the
45:30customer is you just sold us out.
45:33Even that word you
45:34Yeah.
45:35sounds so basic and simple, but they say
45:37with content, really effective content
45:39talks to one person.
45:41And so so that word you is instantly
45:43talking to that one person who's sitting
45:45alone in bed watching Tik Tok.
45:46That's such great advice. Yeah, that is
45:48such great advice. Um and you mentioned
45:51something as well, like building
45:52curiosity. Now you can do that with your
45:54obviously your hooks and everything, but
45:55you mentioned something else like and I
45:57think this is one of the for people that
45:59maybe are at a lower level of their
46:01content experience, like what's going on
46:03visually as well. That's something that,
46:05you know, maybe beginners don't see as
46:07much unless you've really watched good
46:08content creators and break it down.
46:10Yeah.
46:10What are some of the visual hooks or
46:12visual differences you can do to make
46:14your content more creative? I think a
46:15basic one, like you'll have your
46:17microphone clipped onto something random
46:19different every time. Like that's a
46:20really easy one that everyone, like you
46:21see that for the first time, like what's
46:22he doing with a spatula
46:23Yeah.
46:24in front of his face, you know?
46:24Yeah. So, this is something I'm always
46:27trying to work on and something I don't
46:28think I'm amazing at. Um
46:31but also some other examples would be
46:32like walking into the frame or or
46:34throwing something or pouring out skin
46:36care or pouring water into a glass.
46:40Mhm.
46:40Doing something with your hands that
46:42makes it more visually appealing and is
46:44is
46:45beyond just you talking to the camera.
46:47Yeah.
46:48Have you done any like like short
46:50courses on like content creation or is
46:52this all from your own experience? Like
46:54is there any good assets? Obviously, not
46:56everyone's going to be able to send
46:57Britney Saunders a message and jump on
46:59her
46:59like an hour-long call with her. Is
47:01there anything that you've picked up or
47:02is it just like trial and error, trial
47:04and error, trial and error?
47:05Um
47:08Like any good creators that you follow
47:09that break down good content creation
47:11that you could pass on to people?
47:14I want to give I want to give the
47:15audience value, but I'm struggling to
47:17think of any.
47:20I can't think of any.
47:21Well, I think a good one would just be
47:22watch your videos. Genuinely, they're
47:24really good.
47:25Thank you.
47:26I feel like I don't I don't know if this
47:28is um
47:30Like yes, I know I've had success on
47:32organic social, but I feel like I'm
47:33definitely not I'm not up there with the
47:35best. And I think the very best are
47:38those people who
47:41love creating content and that is a form
47:43of self-expression for them.
47:45Uh-huh.
47:45For me, it is a um
47:48a way to build a community to promote my
47:50business.
47:50Mhm.
47:51And for people who really are really
47:53really tuned in and good at creating
47:54content, they feel this urge within them
47:56when they have an idea or they have
47:58something to say, is to pick up a phone
48:00and talk on the
48:01right?
48:01Yeah, it translates and they're so
48:03authentic and natural and good
48:04storytellers.
48:06I have to work hard at that.
48:09Or do you think then, let me ask it this
48:10way, like do you think for someone
48:12that's completely green, never created
48:14any content for themselves, would it be
48:16more beneficial for someone like that to
48:19go to the absolute best in the world and
48:20try and replicate them or maybe find
48:22someone
48:23and let's just say if you think Britney
48:25Saunders is up here and you're like the
48:26next one down, maybe okay, don't try and
48:28do what Britney's doing, maybe try do
48:30what you're doing.
48:31Yeah, potentially. Also, I just thought
48:33of it now, um a really good book which
48:35you've probably read is Jim Edwards, the
48:37copywriting book.
48:38Okay, I haven't read it.
48:39Oh, you should read it. So good. And
48:41just even from an ad perspective, it
48:43teaches you the formula to to connect
48:45with customers.
48:46And I use that when I'm creating organic
48:48content as well, just the way you
48:50structure a script.
48:51it Jim Edwards?
48:52Jim Edwards, yeah.
48:53Jim Edwards copy on copywriting, all
48:54right. I'll look it up. Joe, put it on
48:55our list.
48:58Joe loves copywriting. He's he's a bit
48:59of a copywriting nerd. He has a heaps of
49:00books about it as well.
49:02So organic has always been like the
49:03backbone of the business. At what point
49:06do you start doing some paid stuff? Is
49:08it always after Shark Tank? Where did
49:09Yeah, so we filmed filmed Shark Tank in
49:11May and then I got
49:13connected with Manu and we started
49:15running ads 2 weeks later.
49:16Oh wow, straight off the back of that.
49:18How did
49:18Manu was like, you've got all this
49:20content. Like he's like, let's just run
49:22it in in ads and see how it goes.
49:23Yeah. Um how was the experience going on
49:26Shark Tank and like you I heard you
49:28applied like the final night they had
49:30applications open or something like
49:31that.
49:32Yeah, so I Well, first of all, I was in
49:35Bali editing the video and then
49:38um
49:39all of a sudden all the files got
49:41corrupted after I'd spent 3 hours
49:42editing this video. What I didn't
49:44realize is that they just saved to
49:47um
49:48they saved to the cloud and all you need
49:50to do is re-download them again, but I
49:52I edited the whole video again.
49:55Submitted that,
49:56caught a flight, and when I landed I had
49:58three missed calls from a Shark Tank
50:00producer. Called them back, and they
50:01were like, "We love your video. It's so
50:04good. We want you on the show." And then
50:06ever since then it was just like a due
50:07diligence process pro- due diligence
50:10due diligence process to get on the
50:13show.
50:13Yeah.
50:14Um ended up filming it. I was the first
50:16one
50:17uh to film on the show. So, flew to
50:19Sydney, stayed in a hotel that night,
50:20got picked up at 4:00 a.m. in the
50:21morning, went to the studio,
50:24uh ended up getting in the tank at like
50:268:30 a.m.
50:27Um it was a wild experience. I just kind
50:30of like trained my mind to to trick it
50:32into being excited, cuz as you know I
50:33don't like doing the public stuff.
50:35That's pretty as public as it gets. Big
50:37set, multiple camera men, like four
50:39amazing sharks.
50:40Yeah.
50:41Pretty um intimidating environment,
50:43right?
50:43It was very intimidating. So, what they
50:45didn't show on TV is I actually you have
50:47to walk out to the Shark Tank song, and
50:50you have to stand in that spot until the
50:52song finishes.
50:53And all the sharks are staring at you.
50:56So, I closed my eyes.
50:57I like
50:58was like, "I don't want to look at them.
50:59I don't want to look at them." And I
51:00just did deep breathing exercises.
51:01Yeah.
51:02And then um when the music stopped I
51:04opened my eyes and started the pitch,
51:06and ended up getting four offers during
51:08the show.
51:09We'll talk about that, but I know you
51:11had a really interesting strategy and
51:12approach to going on the show. Um but
51:14for anyone that else is is keen and
51:16thinking about it, they loved your
51:17video. What do you think they loved so
51:18much about your application video?
51:22The the storytelling. I talked about
51:24some of the marketing stunts we'd
51:25already done,
51:27um
51:27and just like the fast-paced
51:30and
51:32fast-paced and persuasive style of the
51:34content.
51:35I know you don't have the best memory,
51:36but do you remember what sort of they
51:37asked for you to put in the the video
51:38structure, like
51:39Oh, they they just asked for you to like
51:41literally film yourself, like one take.
51:44They just want to get a vibe of what
51:45you're like. I was like, "I'm going to
51:47go all out on this.
51:47Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:49Um so, let's talk about the strategy
51:50going on the show.
51:52Explain that to Explain that to the
51:54people. So, you like some people can go
51:55on and they can value it really highly
51:58and not get any offers, but what was
51:59your intention going on the show? Were
52:01you black and white I need to get an
52:02investment or what was your approach?
52:04So, um my approach was very much
52:06publicity and it was a marketing
52:09opportunity.
52:10I knew from speaking to
52:13past people who had done Shark Tank and
52:14even people who had done Shark Tank in
52:15the US is that you can go on the show
52:19and you don't have to take the deal.
52:21So,
52:22a lot of people go on the show and use
52:24it as a PR exercise.
52:26And I was like, okay, cool. How If I If
52:28this is a PR exercise, how am I going to
52:30make the most out of it? So, I was like,
52:32there's no way I'm going to go in
52:34valuing the business at a million
52:35dollars and get no offers.
52:37Yeah, just laughed out of the room.
52:38Yeah, I'm going to go in with a really
52:39low valuation and try to get as many of
52:41these sharks biting and wanting to make
52:43an offer as possible.
52:44for the show as well.
52:46Exactly.
52:46Fighting over who's going to get it.
52:47Exactly.
52:49Um and that's what happened. I went in
52:50with a really low valuation. Four sharks
52:52made offers. Um they actually even
52:54bumped up my valuation during the
52:56negotiations with each other.
52:58Um and then I ended up accepting a deal
53:00on the show with Davie from the group.
53:02Can't go wrong going with Davie. If you
53:04just want to start an e-commerce brand,
53:05there's not many people that have done
53:07more than him in Australia.
53:08Yeah, and I think um after filming it, I
53:10was I was genuinely interested at that
53:12point of pursuing a deal with Davie.
53:14Yeah.
53:15That was my intention.
53:16Was he your pick going into the show if
53:18you were going to do one of course?
53:19And then it just so happened in the
53:21negotiations that we couldn't align on
53:23the terms and um
53:24so, the deal didn't go through.
53:25Yeah, but you're like, you know, no no
53:26harm done at that point. You
53:28It was one of the best decisions I've
53:29made.
53:29You mentioned on that video, um I want
53:31to speak about the aftermath of the show
53:33in a second, but you mentioned um in
53:34that video you spoke about some of the
53:35marketing stunts you've already done.
53:37You had already done. What was one of
53:38those?
53:39Um so, one of them we got a a girl 8:00
53:42a.m. Melbourne traffic on a um train to
53:45apply the face mask and um we we filmed
53:48her like organically and just
53:49it wasn't yeah.
53:50Yeah, and we so she literally was on the
53:52train applying the the mask and then had
53:54a water bottle with a towel and like
53:55wiped it off.
53:57Mid-morning that she had um people
53:59staring at her thinking she was crazy.
54:01And we filmed that and we pushed it out
54:02on social media, but we didn't push it
54:04out on our socials. We got a content
54:06creator to push push it out on his
54:07socials being like, "Look at what this
54:09weird girl's doing on a train."
54:10So smart.
54:11And then it got picked up by Daily Mail,
54:12news.com, LabBible. Even now it still
54:15gets recirculated.
54:16So what what was their um angle in in
54:18showing that? They didn't know it was a
54:19marketing stunt at the time.
54:21know it was a marketing stunt, but then
54:22we got everyone to comment on the video
54:24being like, "That's the Boring Without
54:25You mask." And the mask is perfectly
54:27positioned. You can see the branding on
54:28the mask.
54:30Oh, I love I love creative ideas like
54:32that. Where do you get these ideas? Like
54:34is it just they come to you? You're in
54:35the shower, late night, you see other
54:37you take inspiration from other brands
54:38in the US and Europe? How do you come up
54:40with cuz I hear so many cool stories on
54:41this podcast and I'm like, "Fuck, why
54:43didn't I think of something like that?"
54:44So I genuinely think creativity can be
54:47trained and um I used to work in radio
54:50and I've always had a a knack for coming
54:52up with ideas, but um
54:54it was uh Jace Hawkins who's the
54:56announcer on on the show now it's the
54:58breakfast show on Nova in Melbourne.
55:01And um
55:02he he kind of embedded in me that I am
55:05creative and I am good at coming up with
55:07ideas and he's instilled this confidence
55:09in me to actually keep generating ideas.
55:11Yeah.
55:12And that was my job on the show was to
55:13come up with weird ideas like that that
55:15get views and and get attention on
55:17radio. So I'd now just try to do that
55:19with Boring Without You as well.
55:21You had the perfect training for for the
55:22world that you're in now.
55:23Yeah. Like another another idea we did
55:25the other day um to promote our launch
55:27into Priceline was we um dressed up in
55:30hazmat suits, had masks on, and went out
55:32at 4:00 a.m. outside Pricelines and um
55:34spray painted stencils on the sidewalk
55:37outside directing people into store
55:39saying like boring without you in store
55:40now. I love it. Um
55:43I know you mentioned um
55:45Shark Tank was like a big moment for you
55:47sort of
55:48changed the trajectory of the brand a
55:49little bit. Was a really big boost.
55:51Was it where was the impact for you? Was
55:53it off the back of the TV show or was it
55:56off the back of you leveraged that
55:58content with your own organic stuff and
56:00then had you know millions of views off
56:01the back of it. What was the bigger
56:03driver for the extra traffic for the
56:05extra buzz around the brand do you
56:06think? I think a bit of both. So I think
56:09the benefit of Shark Tank is it really
56:10solidifies you as a as an actual brand
56:13run by actual people as opposed to being
56:16an e-commerce brand where no one knows
56:18who you are.
56:18Faceless who is this? Is it a scam? Can
56:20I trust them?
56:21Yeah. And then of course we leverage we
56:23leverage the content running it in ads.
56:25We got um good like mainstream publicity
56:27off it.
56:28Um
56:29yeah and then even even today like when
56:31I was presenting to those those
56:33Priceline staff members yesterday like I
56:35told the story about me going on Shark
56:37Tank and that gives validity to the
56:38brand.
56:39And then also as well getting offers
56:41from all four sharks. That is like
56:43you'll be able to use that for all your
56:44retail pitches in the future as well.
56:46Such a a smart approach. And I was it
56:49your biggest day ever the day after you
56:50went on Shark Tank you said?
56:52To date?
56:52No back at that time.
56:54yeah yeah for sure.
56:55Yeah. Um what's what's been the strategy
56:58that's beat that since? You say today
56:59that I'm assuming you've done more since
57:00then.
57:01Yeah so
57:03um
57:04what's beaten that is
57:08Black Friday 2024.
57:10Um we had Kayla Jade post about us so
57:13though like literally two days in a row
57:15would have beaten that by a long shot.
57:17Um
57:19and then launching our new products.
57:21Mhm.
57:21So we launched two new products at the
57:23same time and as I said before the
57:25build-up to that was very very strategic
57:28and and incubating the audience around
57:30these two new new products. Let's Let's
57:33talk about the Black Friday period you
57:35had last year.
57:37You know, a few couple years into the
57:38business at least, you've got all the
57:40lessons from from everything you've done
57:42previously. As a bit more of a mature
57:45brand, what did you do differently to
57:46have such a strong result for Black
57:48Friday last year
57:50that maybe didn't do the year the year
57:51prior?
57:53Um way more content. Yeah, we just we
57:56just um
57:57we're ready to go with so much more
57:59content. Um
58:02We actually didn't We didn't actually
58:04have a massive massive Black Friday last
58:07last year. Um
58:10Let me just recall my memory. So, we we
58:13launched Black Friday in November early
58:15November and um it didn't start as
58:17strong. I think a lot of brands last
58:18year didn't have that strong of a Black
58:20Friday month.
58:21Um but then Kayla Jade posted about us
58:24and that coincided with the actual Black
58:26Friday day.
58:27Yeah, and so that ended up being like
58:29our biggest day.
58:29Yeah, and I I heard you explaining um
58:33the whole Kayla Jade um collaboration on
58:35another podcast and it's like was a
58:37genius move and no one else had ever
58:38like so many brands were hesitant to
58:39move into that space and you're like,
58:40why?
58:41Like are you guys serious?
58:43Yeah.
58:43Um so, in case you don't know, Kayla
58:45Jade is a sex worker and she tells like
58:47fascinating stories on TikTok and people
58:49just vicariously live through her.
58:51to a few of it and I'm like, [ __ ]
58:52they're so interesting.
58:53She's a really really good storyteller.
58:55of the ones you mentioned before, the
58:56one that can just
58:57put on the camera and start talking and
58:59they somehow speak in ways that are
59:00interesting even though they haven't
59:01scripted it, haven't chopped it all
59:02down.
59:02You might be surprised though, Dylan.
59:04She might script it.
59:04Oh, well, well, you would know more than
59:05me. It doesn't appear that she does
59:08though. To have that skill to be able to
59:09talk like you're talking off the cuff.
59:12Yeah. Yeah, it's a Yeah, it's about
59:13making it sound natural and um but going
59:16into the content prepared. But she um
59:18she was phenomenal for our brand. So,
59:19she has 2 million followers and one one
59:21morning I wake up and and she's used a
59:24serum our serum that I sent to her as
59:26PR. And you send PR to hundreds of
59:28people never expecting them to really
59:30post about it.
59:31And from the moment that she posted that
59:33video using our product, I knew the next
59:35five videos that I was going to create
59:36around it. And it's not actually her
59:38video that gets
59:40um sales. It's the content that you
59:42create around it that gets the sales.
59:44So, you need to leverage that and then
59:47create additional content.
59:48That's what exactly the words you just
59:49used I had on my list to ask you about.
59:51It's like it's all the moments that you
59:53create are one moment but you've got the
59:56ability to leverage them into five or
59:5710. If If someone like how can people
1:00:00start thinking about that and changing
1:00:02their approach cuz
1:00:03people think one good piece of content
1:00:05or one idea is this one thing, but you
1:00:07can 10x the performance of that by
1:00:08coming up with different ways to talk
1:00:10about that one moment. Do you have a a
1:00:12way that you can explain that or break
1:00:13that down or maybe an example of a big
1:00:15moment that you had whether it be the
1:00:16train or whether it be the Kayla Jade
1:00:18thing and the other sub pieces of
1:00:20content that you created around that?
1:00:21Yeah, and I think this is the biggest
1:00:23thing for new brands is thinking about
1:00:26how can you repurpose moments that
1:00:28happen so that they live longer. And
1:00:30this is something I learned from working
1:00:31in radio. It's like cool, you have this
1:00:33one moment and then it's like what are
1:00:34the 10 moments after that that we can
1:00:36leverage off this one piece of content.
1:00:38Um so, example for the Kayla Jade one.
1:00:40So, instantly it's um okay, cool. This
1:00:43my reaction to her posting. That's it.
1:00:46Okay, then it's cool what my reaction to
1:00:47the uptick in sales. Okay, then it's
1:00:50replying to a comment that someone made.
1:00:52Okay, then it's replying to a negative
1:00:53comment that someone made about her
1:00:55being a sex worker and it's a
1:00:56minute-long video of me defending sex
1:00:58workers who have a bodily autonomy and
1:01:00should be allowed to do whatever they
1:01:01want for their profession.
1:01:02Then there's the the hundreds of
1:01:04positive comments off the back of that
1:01:05video. You can reply to one of them.
1:01:07Yeah.
1:01:08Um then it's a a video a minute-long
1:01:10video sending Kayla Jade a gift from us
1:01:13to say thank you for posting about our
1:01:14content. That got 1.8 million views.
1:01:17Like it's all of this sort of stuff.
1:01:19right? I was
1:01:20thinking, okay, cool. How can we
1:01:21leverage this? How can we do something
1:01:23different that other brands aren't
1:01:24doing?
1:01:24Mhm.
1:01:25I love the way you think about that. I
1:01:26think there's a lot to be learned about
1:01:27the way that you and the other brands
1:01:29that that that do that well, um, as
1:01:31well. Now,
1:01:33as we've spoken about, I think we have,
1:01:34I mentioned at the start, Priceline are
1:01:35in, I think, 300 something stores around
1:01:37the country.
1:01:39It wasn't an easy process. Well, they
1:01:40were really keen, but you had to go
1:01:41through a few different buyers and so I
1:01:43start the process all over again. Um,
1:01:45explain to us the process, um, what it
1:01:48looked like getting with Priceline, um,
1:01:50and what do you think
1:01:52got three separate buyers so interested
1:01:55and bought into the brand?
1:01:57So,
1:01:59if you don't know how to do something,
1:02:00find someone who knows how to do it. And
1:02:02that's exactly what I did with the whole
1:02:03Priceline thing. I didn't I knew nothing
1:02:05about the whole retail space, so I found
1:02:07an ex-Priceline buyer and, uh, worked
1:02:09closely with her on a pitch deck and
1:02:10everything. And then, by the time we had
1:02:13we presented to the first buyer straight
1:02:15after that pitch, they were keen.
1:02:16Mhm.
1:02:16Um, because we, in our presentation, had
1:02:18hit all the things that they cared
1:02:20about.
1:02:21And, um,
1:02:22What are some of those things they care
1:02:23about?
1:02:24So, um,
1:02:25they care about differentiation.
1:02:28They care about, do you have existing
1:02:29customers that you can pull into the
1:02:31store?
1:02:32They care about, what sort of marketing
1:02:34investment are you going to make? And
1:02:35they care about, what sort of investment
1:02:37are you going to make with them beyond
1:02:39just putting product in the store. It's
1:02:41a big revenue generator for Priceline is
1:02:43the all their marketing assets around
1:02:45it.
1:02:46Um,
1:02:48they care about, um,
1:02:49the the team, the products,
1:02:53all of that sort of stuff, the price
1:02:54point,
1:02:55all of that.
1:02:56Um,
1:02:58then the buyer who was really interested
1:02:59in us went on maternity leave, we got
1:03:01put put with another buyer.
1:03:04Um, we were pretty much down to the wire
1:03:06with negotiations with her, and then she
1:03:07finished up with the with the business,
1:03:09got passed to another buyer.
1:03:11Um,
1:03:12What's your head thinking every time
1:03:13you're like, not again?
1:03:14Oh, It's annoying.
1:03:15Yeah.
1:03:17Um,
1:03:18yeah, I just I mean
1:03:20it was a really really frustrating
1:03:22process, but I think it I found solace
1:03:24in the fact that they were they were
1:03:26genuinely keen in the brand and excited
1:03:27about Boring Without You.
1:03:28I think you can't go into any retail
1:03:30pitching process and have a short expect
1:03:32a short-term result, right?
1:03:34From first meeting to to to launch into
1:03:36stores, how long do you think was in
1:03:37between that?
1:03:39A year. That's pretty standard. Right?
1:03:41Like if it's 6 months, that would be
1:03:43like one of the quickest retail deals.
1:03:44No, but but sometimes it's like it's a
1:03:47year, but it's signed in the first 3
1:03:49months and you're just waiting.
1:03:50Yeah.
1:03:51it was like a whole year, it wasn't
1:03:53signed, it wasn't signed, and then last
1:03:54minute it was signed and it was rushed
1:03:55to get it done.
1:03:56Yeah.
1:03:57So, launching into 300 stores, did you
1:03:59need um to go like raise funds to to
1:04:01stock up for all that or how did you
1:04:03like fund the launch into stores?
1:04:05luckily we um we had cash in the bank.
1:04:07We've we've really grown the business
1:04:08profitably this whole time.
1:04:10Yeah.
1:04:10And just um and reinvested everything
1:04:12back into the business. So, I don't pay
1:04:14myself.
1:04:14Yeah.
1:04:15Um luckily, I get brand deals from
1:04:17content creation, so that funds my life.
1:04:20Yeah.
1:04:20And then Boring Without You, everything
1:04:22goes back into the business.
1:04:23business. Um uh yeah, it's just the
1:04:25story so many founders tell. What's
1:04:26what's your long-term play with the
1:04:27brand? You've got how many products now?
1:04:29Four, five?
1:04:31Three skin care products.
1:04:32care products, yeah.
1:04:32Yeah.
1:04:33What's the long-term play? How far do
1:04:34you think you can take this?
1:04:35I want us to be a global brand that's
1:04:38that's really really well known for
1:04:40catering to combination skin.
1:04:42And look, you've you're already doing
1:04:44amazing things. Um I like I said, I I
1:04:46love your branding, I love your
1:04:47marketing strategy, the way the way I
1:04:49love the way that you create moments and
1:04:50leverage them.
1:04:51But if you want to get from where you
1:04:52are now to to that brand globally, what
1:04:54do you think are going to be the key
1:04:55pillars of the business that you're
1:04:56going to focus on?
1:04:59Good question.
1:05:01I'm putting you on the spot here.
1:05:02Obviously, you didn't get any of these
1:05:03questions in in advance. I didn't even
1:05:05write half of them down, they just
1:05:06popped into my head.
1:05:07Um I think distribution is key. I think
1:05:10um product differentiation. There's so
1:05:12many skin care products on the market,
1:05:13so it's about really really investing
1:05:15time and energy into what is this
1:05:17product, what problem is it solving?
1:05:19Um
1:05:20and creating really good a really good
1:05:23customer experience and really good
1:05:24products so that customers come back
1:05:25again and again and again.
1:05:27Um
1:05:29and then also I think a big piece for us
1:05:31now that we have that retail piece in
1:05:34Australia is just getting more people to
1:05:35know about us.
1:05:37I think that's a big challenge.
1:05:38Are you Are you guys selling like
1:05:40globally yet or is it Australia, New
1:05:42Zealand? Like what's been
1:05:43Um we ship we ship globally but most of
1:05:46our sales are in Australia.
1:05:47Yeah. So obviously we've spoken about a
1:05:48lot of the cool things you've done with
1:05:49marketing. Um what I'd like to do with
1:05:52founders is sometimes just talk about
1:05:53some of the moments you're most proud of
1:05:54and some of the success stories. Now
1:05:56again this isn't about comparison for
1:05:57people listening but I think it can be
1:05:58really um exciting for people to hear
1:06:01what is possible with business when you
1:06:02go in um all yourself. Now I know we
1:06:04spoke about the Kayla Itsines thing
1:06:05earlier.
1:06:06Um I know that was really successful for
1:06:08you and the brand. Could you give us
1:06:10some sort of insight as to what impact
1:06:12you guys had off the back of the the
1:06:14Kayla Itsines collaboration?
1:06:15So for 2 days after that, well not even
1:06:17the collaboration, just when she posted
1:06:19organically we were doing like 30 35
1:06:22times return on ad spend for those 2
1:06:23days. And as I said before had like our
1:06:26biggest sales day ever.
1:06:27Um and but even now after doing the
1:06:30collaboration we've we've had the
1:06:31ability with that content to scale our
1:06:34ads to a spend that is way higher than
1:06:36we've ever done before.
1:06:37Yeah. So what what lesson do you take
1:06:38out of that with like future
1:06:40collaborations with some of these like
1:06:41bigger content creators? Is like are you
1:06:42approaching them with this foresight of
1:06:45being prepared for everything that comes
1:06:46after that as well and maximizing that
1:06:48moment?
1:06:48I think now my strategy around it is
1:06:51finding creators who are
1:06:53um a little bit untapped in terms of
1:06:56brands sending them stuff which was the
1:06:58case with Kayla for stupid reasons.
1:07:01Um but it's about finding those creators
1:07:04who have a really loyal audience and who
1:07:06are slightly untapped and it's like, how
1:07:08can we align our brand with them? And
1:07:11and uh in doing so, leverage that
1:07:14audience to to market our product and
1:07:16know more about Boring Without You.
1:07:18This This is going to sound like a
1:07:19really stupid, like, obvious question.
1:07:21Um and some Some you'll just know and
1:07:22you sort of have to be plugged in, but
1:07:23for the people that maybe don't spend as
1:07:25much time on Instagram or TikTok as
1:07:27users themselves and and know these
1:07:29creators, are there any signals, like,
1:07:31what are some ways that you can find out
1:07:32if you're doing some research that,
1:07:34"Hey, I'm pretty sure I've got a good
1:07:36feeling that this content creator does
1:07:37genuinely have a loyal following that
1:07:39pays attention and and is a genuine
1:07:41influencer that influences people, not
1:07:43just
1:07:45smiles at the product and none of them
1:07:46really cares, you know?"
1:07:47Yeah, that's a really good question. So,
1:07:49I'll use Kayla Jade as an example. She
1:07:52is talked about in my friend group.
1:07:54Uh-huh.
1:07:55People on the weekend will say, "Did you
1:07:56see this Kayla Jade story?" and we'll
1:07:58spend 15 minutes talking about her.
1:08:00So, in that moment, I already followed
1:08:02her, I already enjoyed her content, I
1:08:04knew who are we need to get our product
1:08:07to Kayla Jade.
1:08:08Now, another thing I do is when I see
1:08:10people who are in our target
1:08:11demographic, I'm constantly doing
1:08:13research. I'll say to them, "Who do you
1:08:14follow on social media? Who are you
1:08:16watching? Why do you like them?"
1:08:18And I I get them to send me those people
1:08:20and then I follow them back. Uh a friend
1:08:22just sent a girl with only 15,000
1:08:25followers the other day. She goes, "This
1:08:26girl's incredible. I think she's going
1:08:28to blow up. I follow her. She's such a
1:08:29good storyteller." So, now I follow her
1:08:31and I'm looking for ways that we can
1:08:33work more closely with her.
1:08:35Is there a like Is it spread out across
1:08:37different niches or have you realized a
1:08:39type of content creator that's like
1:08:41working really well for you guys or is
1:08:42it just the individuals? Well, we had a
1:08:44lot of success with first Anna Paul and
1:08:46then Kayla Jade, so there is that like a
1:08:49OnlyFans sex worker kind of alignment
1:08:51there, but
1:08:52that I would like it goes against like,
1:08:54you know,
1:08:56I would assume, again, and this is like
1:08:57about knowing who their followers are,
1:08:58like, are there are there women
1:08:59following these people? Are they guys
1:09:01following these creators?
1:09:02Women.
1:09:03See, that's the thing you need to look
1:09:04into as well cuz sometimes you go,
1:09:05"Okay, if it's an OnlyFans creator, um
1:09:07but it's like genuinely they're just
1:09:08followed by heaps of guys and you sell
1:09:10to 95% females, you've got to actually
1:09:11have a little bit of like context around
1:09:13who's following the people, right?"
1:09:14Yeah, 100% and um that's why I always
1:09:17ask women, "Who are you following?"
1:09:19Yeah, all the guys.
1:09:20Yeah, yeah. Um
1:09:22I think yeah, we don't we don't do a lot
1:09:24of creator stuff, but it's something I
1:09:25want to explore more of and that is
1:09:27definitely a strategy is finding someone
1:09:29who it has a really loyal following, but
1:09:31also the content that they create is um
1:09:34is persuasive, they're a good
1:09:35storyteller, they're doing something
1:09:36different that's unique. Um they don't
1:09:38have to only do OnlyFans or sex work,
1:09:41that's for sure. Um
1:09:42but they have to have an ability to
1:09:44really connect with their audience.
1:09:46Yeah, I think that's I think that's a
1:09:47great piece of advice. And now, we spoke
1:09:49about earlier on in the podcast, like
1:09:51you you got into this space because
1:09:53you're genuinely passionate about the
1:09:54products and about skin care. Um and I
1:09:57know you're really proud about the
1:09:57products you've created. You mentioned
1:09:59you didn't necessarily have go all out
1:10:01with last Black Friday, but some of the
1:10:03results you had with some of the new
1:10:05product launches were were really
1:10:06exciting. What went into the new product
1:10:09launches cuz I know you said the first
1:10:10time you did it, you didn't really start
1:10:11educating them on the products until the
1:10:14day you launched. You had a little bit
1:10:16of a different approach. Could you
1:10:17explain how you actually executed in
1:10:19that and what the results were like off
1:10:20the back of that?
1:10:21Yeah, so 6 months prior to launching
1:10:23those products, I already knew what the
1:10:24products were and what the ingredients
1:10:26were. So, I started talking about those
1:10:28ingredients and actually talking about
1:10:30other products that feature those
1:10:31ingredients. Talking about the skin
1:10:33concerns that they treat, the benefits
1:10:35of using those ingredients. So, that by
1:10:37the time we launched, consumers or my
1:10:39audience already knew what those
1:10:41ingredients were, what they did, and
1:10:43what they would do for their skin.
1:10:45Um in addition to that, I started like I
1:10:48I bought
1:10:4950 different moisturizers and talked
1:10:51exclusively about moisturizers, bought
1:10:5350 different serums and talked
1:10:54exclusively about serums. What I liked
1:10:56about them, what I didn't like about
1:10:58them, and everything I was saying that I
1:11:00didn't like about them was we weren't
1:11:01going to do that with our product. And
1:11:03everything I did like about it, we were
1:11:04going to do it with our product. So, it
1:11:06was it was not only talking about my
1:11:07personal preference from a science
1:11:09education perspective, but also priming
1:11:11the audience.
1:11:12the audience, right?
1:11:13100%. So, by the time we launched, um
1:11:17the audience knew we were creating two
1:11:18new products. They knew one of them was
1:11:20a moisturizer. They knew the other one
1:11:22was something else.
1:11:23Um and they knew about the ingredients,
1:11:26what the ingredients did, and the
1:11:27benefit it was going to have on their
1:11:28skin, and the skin concern that they
1:11:30were trying to treat.
1:11:31And then, literally within days of
1:11:34launching those two new products, we'd
1:11:35done 150 grand.
1:11:36Yeah, that's crazy. And what are the
1:11:38names of the of the products as well?
1:11:39Because I love the names. Isn't one one
1:11:41make me wet or something like
1:11:42Yeah, one of them's called Make Me Wet.
1:11:44But it's about hydration, though.
1:11:45Of course, of course. No, but it's like
1:11:47like again, differentiate like people
1:11:49see the name of it.
1:11:51Stands out really clearly. And what was
1:11:52the other product you launched? The
1:11:53moisturizer and the
1:11:54Moisturizer's called Face Flood.
1:11:56Face Flood. Okay. And the Make Me Wet,
1:11:57was that the milk
1:11:58That's the serum, yeah.
1:11:59Serum. So, what does the milk serum do?
1:12:00I've never seen a milk serum before. Uh
1:12:02this is completely like
1:12:03Yeah, so
1:12:04rookie on skin care, but
1:12:05Yeah, so the serum is designed to
1:12:07brighten, smooth, plump, and firm your
1:12:09skin while hydrating at the same time.
1:12:11Yeah.
1:12:11And um the clinical evidence we have on
1:12:13that is it provides up to 155% instant
1:12:16increase in skin hydration. And then,
1:12:18over a 4-week period, it increases your
1:12:20baseline hydration by 43%.
1:12:22And the way there's a lot of like sneaky
1:12:24names, just like research and all these
1:12:26things uh I'm sure in skin care and
1:12:28health and in a lot of different things.
1:12:29The way you guys run your
1:12:32um studies is a lot more honest than
1:12:33some of the other other ones you do it.
1:12:35How do you guys run your studies when
1:12:36you're doing like baseline hydration
1:12:38testing and things like that?
1:12:39Yeah, so a lot of brands will do
1:12:40in-house testing. Um if you're a big
1:12:42brand like L'Oreal or something, it kind
1:12:44of makes sense to do in-house testing
1:12:46cuz you have the ability to do that. But
1:12:47then, the smaller brands, they'll do
1:12:49they'll get a 100 existing customers to
1:12:53survey the product. Of course, existing
1:12:54customers are going to be more
1:12:55favorable. And um when you're doing
1:12:58something in-house, there's an inherent
1:12:59bias behind it. So, we do independent
1:13:02studies. I have no control over
1:13:03selecting the participants. They The
1:13:05participants don't even know that it's
1:13:07Boring Without You that they're they're
1:13:08talking about. Um and we take it one
1:13:11step further and we don't just do
1:13:13consumer perception questions, which is
1:13:16does your skin feel more hydrated? We do
1:13:18instrumental analysis. So, it's an
1:13:19actual scientific measurement measuring
1:13:22the increase in skin hydration that
1:13:23those people have.
1:13:25In addition to that, what a lot of
1:13:28uh brands will do is get the the
1:13:30participant to apply the product the
1:13:31morning of their final visit. So, then
1:13:34the reading is the product on
1:13:36is still right there, yeah.
1:13:37rather than the actual increase in
1:13:39hydration on their skin. Um so, we get
1:13:41the participants to apply the product
1:13:43the night before. They wash their face
1:13:45the morning of their final reading. And
1:13:47then that measurement, that 43.10%
1:13:49increase, is an increase in their
1:13:51baseline hydration.
1:13:52baseline hydration. I thought that was
1:13:53really cool. That stood out to me and
1:13:54it's just like all these different
1:13:56industries will play funny buggers and
1:13:57try and, you know,
1:13:59make the statistics make them look good.
1:14:00But I think having such an authentic,
1:14:02you know, transparent approach like you
1:14:03guys, it's only going to win you bigger
1:14:05fans in the in the long term.
1:14:06Hope so.
1:14:07Well, we'll see. But it's it's working
1:14:08pretty well so far. Now, the brand
1:14:10during your third third year, fourth
1:14:12year?
1:14:12Yeah, in the third year, yeah.
1:14:13Third year, you've had some pretty
1:14:14impressive growth from the start. Like
1:14:16what where How much do you think the
1:14:18brand has grown like year on year since
1:14:19you guys
1:14:20launched?
1:14:20Yeah, pretty massive. A thousand percent
1:14:22year-on-year growth.
1:14:24Yeah, that's nice. Um what do you put
1:14:26that down to? I know we've spoken about
1:14:27a lot of things in detail, but like what
1:14:29are you things like one of the main
1:14:30things that you guys have done so well
1:14:32that have enabled you to to consistently
1:14:34grow?
1:14:36You ask really good questions. That just
1:14:38puts me on the spot.
1:14:39the spot, I know, yeah. But I'm thinking
1:14:41music on in the back end thing.
1:14:42Yeah, yeah. It's It's so many things.
1:14:44It's so many things. And I think
1:14:47um
1:14:49it comes down to like we have a really
1:14:51strong organic strategy. Um we're really
1:14:54founder focused. We're focused on
1:14:56creating really good products that do
1:14:57what they say they will, so customers
1:14:59come back.
1:15:00Um
1:15:01and then we do creative and thoughtful
1:15:05marketing that really makes us stand
1:15:06out. Yeah.
1:15:07Um I want to ask one final question
1:15:09about some of the successes and the and
1:15:11the and the really proud moments of the
1:15:13brand before I move into some some other
1:15:15things um that I just want to get your
1:15:16takes on and advice.
1:15:18Get a little peep into the psyche of
1:15:20Davey. Um but retail, again, it's really
1:15:23great. We spoke about getting stocked in
1:15:24in Priceline. That's awesome. Like it's
1:15:26big achievement. But then it's like one
1:15:28thing to get stocked, it's another thing
1:15:29to sell through.
1:15:31What do you think once you're in the
1:15:32store? Because that's like people feel
1:15:34like, "Okay, that's the end game,
1:15:35right?" Getting in the store is the
1:15:36start of where the work really begins.
1:15:38What have you guys been able to do to
1:15:40continue to actually sell successfully
1:15:42in Priceline? Like what's driven that
1:15:43strategy? And has it performed to where
1:15:46you thought it would be? To where
1:15:47Priceline thought it would be? How has
1:15:48it sort of all played out being in
1:15:50store?
1:15:50Yeah, so I think the key is once you're
1:15:52in store, you have that accessibility.
1:15:55And then it's about um building
1:15:57awareness, so that when people go into a
1:15:59Priceline store, they already know about
1:16:01the brand. You don't want to have to
1:16:03convert people when they're in there.
1:16:04You want them to come looking for the
1:16:06product. And it's it's an accessibility
1:16:08point of view. Um so now my big focus is
1:16:11how can we get as many people as
1:16:12possible to know about Boring Without
1:16:14You? Um
1:16:15the partnerships like Kayla Jade is a
1:16:17massive piece in that. Our organic
1:16:19social strategy, we even run paid ads
1:16:21that are focused on driving people into
1:16:23Priceline using UGC creators to to drive
1:16:25people into Priceline.
1:16:27Um and the reception so far has been
1:16:31phenomenal. So we've only been in there
1:16:3211 weeks now. We've They had Priceline
1:16:35have an expectation of what you should
1:16:37be doing after being in there a year.
1:16:39We're already doing double that, and in
1:16:40some cases triple that.
1:16:42In 11 weeks.
1:16:44So, it's still what like the same
1:16:46elements of the business that have been
1:16:47working so well with e-com, organic
1:16:49content, awareness, and that just
1:16:52creating content, driving people to
1:16:53Priceline, letting them know that's
1:16:54where you are. How much you know you you
1:16:56meant you made a good point. Some people
1:16:58think you get into retail um and then
1:17:00you don't have to do any marketing
1:17:01because they're in the retail and just
1:17:02being on the shelves in there sells the
1:17:04product. Do you think there's an element
1:17:05of that? Um you get discovered and
1:17:07purchased by first-time people in there?
1:17:10Or do you think it really is like an
1:17:11accessibility thing for people wanting
1:17:13to buy these products? Where do you
1:17:14think like the benefit to your brand or
1:17:16any any e-com founder's brand to move
1:17:17into retail really is?
1:17:20Um yes, I think people go in store and
1:17:23get convinced to purchase us by just
1:17:25looking at
1:17:26the box and they might not know anything
1:17:28about the brand.
1:17:30But we have to think, okay, why are they
1:17:32going to purchase us not knowing
1:17:34anything about the brand when we're
1:17:36sitting next to The Ordinary and
1:17:38Moroccanoil.
1:17:38Yeah.
1:17:39So, we really need to focus on marketing
1:17:41and that consumer education people piece
1:17:43that so that they at least know about
1:17:45Boring Without You when they get in
1:17:46there.
1:17:47In addition to that, it's about training
1:17:49the Priceline staff so that they can
1:17:50make educated and evidence-based
1:17:53suggestions to the customer when they're
1:17:54in store.
1:17:55How do you do that? Is that someone you
1:17:57send out? Is it yourself? This you're in
1:17:58what 300 something stores? Are you
1:18:01If you wanted to go and speak to all the
1:18:02stores, there's a whole year of your
1:18:04life almost gone.
1:18:05Yeah, so Priceline have opportunities
1:18:08where you can go and train their staff,
1:18:10which is what I was just doing recently.
1:18:11So, I gave back-to-back presentations to
1:18:13their staff, but it's not it's not all
1:18:15their staff.
1:18:16Exactly.
1:18:17Um so, hopefully that gets fed down to
1:18:19the other staff members, but um I think
1:18:22they really appreciated me as the
1:18:24founder of the business going and
1:18:25educating them about our products.
1:18:27Yeah. Um really cool. I think like the
1:18:29success that level of success less than
1:18:313 months in, it'll be amazing to think
1:18:34what you guys are genuinely doing after
1:18:35a year of being in retail, but so
1:18:37another year of growing the brand
1:18:39building more awareness more products to
1:18:41come and I know there's some challenging
1:18:42ones you're working on
1:18:43but I want to change the pace a little
1:18:45bit I've asked you some of these
1:18:46questions as well
1:18:48I like to I like to get into people's
1:18:49heads sometimes like what if anything at
1:18:51the moment is keeping you up at night?
1:18:54No I sleep really well I sleep really
1:18:57well I literally do
1:18:59sleep is a big big focus for me and I do
1:19:03all I can to to optimize my sleep
1:19:06I I also like I really struggle with low
1:19:08energy so if if my sleep's off I'm out
1:19:10for the whole day and like my sleep is
1:19:12like the only thing kind of keeping me
1:19:14Let me let me change the way I frame it
1:19:16cuz sometimes I ask people that and
1:19:17they're like no I sleep really well
1:19:19what's something you can't get out of
1:19:20your mind?
1:19:29I think I have an innate fear that it's
1:19:33all just going to drop at one point like
1:19:36sales are just going to go through the
1:19:37floor priceline sales are going to go
1:19:38through the floor and the that's just a
1:19:41constant fear that makes me keep
1:19:43thinking what's next what's next what's
1:19:45next so I think it's it's a good thing
1:19:47to have
1:19:48bit of that is good
1:19:50I think if you start ever feeling that
1:19:52you know what what's what's the the
1:19:54classic saying like success is never
1:19:56owned it's rented or whatever like you
1:19:58have you got to like show up and pay the
1:19:59pay the bills every day for that
1:20:02this is a question I do ask a lot of
1:20:03people but I think it's like super
1:20:04valuable there's always in a massive
1:20:06lesson in it for you again putting you
1:20:09on the spot here apologies in advance
1:20:11what's a mistake that you've made that
1:20:13has cost you the most amount of money
1:20:14and what was the lesson in that?
1:20:17I want to say rebranding the business
1:20:18but that's like we've already talked
1:20:20about that
1:20:21You'll cut this I'm sure
1:20:22No no we'll we'll leave it all in
1:20:24Not the pause you won't leave this pause
1:20:26We'll see we'll see we'll see Joe you
1:20:28make the final call
1:20:30Um
1:20:32I'm sorry I honestly can't think.
1:20:33No, well, again, if that's the biggest
1:20:35mistake you've made, that's the biggest
1:20:37mistake you've made in terms of costing
1:20:38you money.
1:20:39Um I like to ask that because usually
1:20:41when people have made a mistake that's
1:20:42cost them a lot of money, you don't tend
1:20:44to make that mistake twice.
1:20:46Yeah, I I think when it comes to making
1:20:47mistakes, it's like
1:20:49you spend too long on something trying
1:20:52to figure it out
1:20:53Mhm.
1:20:53when there was a quicker way.
1:20:55Yeah.
1:20:55But it's not necessarily like you're
1:20:57you're wasting a whole bunch of money in
1:20:59one go. It's just that you spend way too
1:21:02long on this thing and your time was
1:21:03taken up on it when you could have been
1:21:05pursuing other opportunities.
1:21:06Yeah, that's probably the the more
1:21:08relevant one for more people listening.
1:21:09Is there anything that stands out as
1:21:11something that you got
1:21:13too invested in that you shouldn't have?
1:21:14Maybe a competitor that was copying you
1:21:15and you spent 2 weeks going through this
1:21:17legal process and blah blah blah. Like,
1:21:19is there anything
1:21:19We should have done ads way sooner.
1:21:21Like, we spent a whole year not running
1:21:23any ads and our revenue in that first
1:21:26year was
1:21:27piddly.
1:21:29Um we should have been focusing on
1:21:31acquiring as many customers as possible
1:21:34and um
1:21:35that was just down to me not knowing
1:21:37enough about ads and having a fear of
1:21:39running ads and losing money.
1:21:40So, would you say for 2025, like paid
1:21:43like paid media spend like using the
1:21:45content that you've got is going to be
1:21:48still a massive part of the strategy?
1:21:50For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And driving people
1:21:52to a landing page that's dedicated to
1:21:54that product or the the skin concern
1:21:56that you're talking about in the ad
1:21:59um and in
1:22:01uh
1:22:01leveraging other creators to actually um
1:22:04run ads with their content and then
1:22:07drive people to their landing page as
1:22:08well.
1:22:09So, it's like it's really exciting to
1:22:10think of everything that you've done
1:22:12only really probably properly
1:22:14investing in that over the last year.
1:22:16There's a lot of growth um there for
1:22:18you. Now, again, this one
1:22:19I'm probably going to be putting you on
1:22:20the spot. I know you got a bad memory,
1:22:21but if you if you don't have anything,
1:22:23we can we can we can brush past it, but
1:22:24I want to I'll you a couple of questions
1:22:26because these are the questions that I
1:22:27think give people some really good value
1:22:30that are listening. Now, if you could go
1:22:31back to Davey on day one of the business
1:22:34and give yourself one tactical piece of
1:22:36business advice on day one that you
1:22:39think would have really helped you out
1:22:40then. Maybe it's exactly what you just
1:22:42said. Start paid ads earlier. What would
1:22:44that have been? And it's okay if that's
1:22:45it, because it sounds like a really good
1:22:47one, but if anything else comes to mind,
1:22:49I'd love to hear it.
1:22:49No, it would have been um don't do a
1:22:51multi-mask first. Don't do a multi-mask
1:22:54first.
1:22:54Why is that?
1:22:55challenge we had with our multi-mask is
1:22:57that it takes people so long to get
1:22:59through it. And so replenishment is
1:23:02really slow.
1:23:03Yeah.
1:23:03And then by the time people get through
1:23:05a mask, they're like, "Okay, cool. I
1:23:07want something different now." So um re-
1:23:10repeats is a is a challenge as well. Um
1:23:13I think the key with skin care is is
1:23:15really focusing on those everyday use
1:23:18products that people buy again and again
1:23:20and again and really solidifying your
1:23:22brand in their daily routine.
1:23:24From like
1:23:25psychology and a persuasive
1:23:27perspective.
1:23:28Um and that's why we've seen enormous
1:23:30benefits with our moisturizer and our
1:23:31serum and our next product will will be
1:23:34in that everyday use category as well.
1:23:37That's really good. I would I never
1:23:38would have thought I never would have
1:23:39thought that until you explained it, but
1:23:40it makes so much sense. So, is there a
1:23:42lesson that you can take out of that? Or
1:23:45is it just the approach to daily
1:23:47products?
1:23:49Yeah, so the lesson would be
1:23:51if you if we so oh
1:23:53it's a also a money thing, because we
1:23:56launched with a multi-mask and then you
1:23:57have no money to launch other products.
1:23:59Um I would have focused
1:24:02a lot more attention and energy on
1:24:03launching those products sooner. I would
1:24:05have sourced capital from somewhere in
1:24:07order to do that.
1:24:08Um
1:24:09because I reckon that hindered our
1:24:11growth massively.
1:24:11Yeah. Yeah. Now, same question. One
1:24:14piece of tactical advice you would have
1:24:15given to yourself to Davey a year ago
1:24:18today.
1:24:22Wait, so what the the question before
1:24:23was what at the start?
1:24:24one at the start.
1:24:25On day one. Okay, a year ago.
1:24:26a year ago.
1:24:27A year ago.
1:24:28So this is for the brands that have, you
1:24:30know, I I reestablished, I've been
1:24:32they've been they've been selling pretty
1:24:33effectively, but they haven't really
1:24:34been able to fully figure out like how
1:24:36do we scale this thing?
1:24:37Yeah. The advice a year ago would would
1:24:39have been focus on your health, go to
1:24:41the gym more,
1:24:43um
1:24:44and um do whatever you can to reduce
1:24:47your anxiety.
1:24:47Yeah. Great advice. Your business will
1:24:49always be a reflection of yourself,
1:24:51right? You said if you have a bad
1:24:52night's sleep and you're on low energy,
1:24:53your output for the day is going to be
1:24:5410% of what it should be.
1:24:56So I think that's great advice for
1:24:57people at any stage. Have you
1:24:59experienced burnout yet?
1:25:00[ __ ] yeah.
1:25:01Yeah. It's not good, is
1:25:02So my whole last year, and this is why
1:25:04I'm focusing on my health and going to
1:25:06the gym this year.
1:25:06Yeah.
1:25:07Last year was like 6 weeks of working
1:25:09non-stop, burnout for a week, 6 weeks of
1:25:11working non-stop, burnout for a week.
1:25:13And it's not sustainable and it impacts
1:25:15the business negatively.
1:25:16I'll I'll tell you where it gets really
1:25:17scary cuz I I you know I've I've been I
1:25:18launched my first business 7 years ago
1:25:21now, 8 years including the the the
1:25:23pre-launch phase.
1:25:25The first couple times I've burnout at
1:25:26start, but
1:25:28one time I had burnout and it took me a
1:25:31month to like get back to like my my
1:25:35proper energy levels. And it's scary for
1:25:37like when it's a month you're like I'm
1:25:39I'm sleeping 10 hours and I'm still
1:25:41beat. I'm
1:25:42wrecked. That's when you start getting
1:25:44to that point you think, am I ever going
1:25:46to go back to being normal? That's when
1:25:47it's really scary. And since I had been
1:25:49a couple years ago, I've been a lot more
1:25:50disciplined and realized that business
1:25:52is such a marathon, not a sprint. And
1:25:55there are seasons and there are times
1:25:56and deadlines where you need to do that,
1:25:58but to have that constant approach, it's
1:26:00like I don't know if it's just you your
1:26:01body gets older, but like we can't take
1:26:03health for granted. If you want to be in
1:26:04business, energy management and your
1:26:06health and focus are so important. If
1:26:09you're the biggest
1:26:11person like guiding the business,
1:26:13delivering value for the business, which
1:26:14is all every founder at the start until
1:26:16you've got, you know, a team of 20, 30,
1:26:18maybe got a CEO put in, which is like
1:26:19such a small percentage of the people
1:26:21listening, you are the the the fuel for
1:26:23this business. So, if you don't take
1:26:24care of yourself,
1:26:26that would probably be the thing that
1:26:27would cause Davey's worst nightmares to
1:26:29come true and the business to fall apart
1:26:30is like you can't get out of bed one day
1:26:32and you can't think for a month, 2
1:26:33months, 3 months,
1:26:35that's when things can really go
1:26:36downhill for founders.
1:26:37I think it's also being okay with doing
1:26:39less.
1:26:40Because you always in your mind are
1:26:41always going to be like, "I need to do
1:26:43more. I need to do more." But you you
1:26:44need you need to give your body a rest.
1:26:46Well, that's the thing. Another lesson
1:26:47that I that I had in business as well
1:26:48was realizing that your to-do list is
1:26:50never zero.
1:26:51Yeah.
1:26:52It's like if anyone's in econ and think
1:26:54that there's nothing left I can do,
1:26:55well, you don't know what you're doing.
1:26:57Yeah.
1:26:57And like being able to like realize,
1:27:00"Okay, I've been at the office since
1:27:018:00 a.m.
1:27:02It's now 9:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m. I've
1:27:05still got all these things I want to do,
1:27:06but you got to live to fight another day
1:27:07sometimes." That was a big thing for me
1:27:10earlier on in my journey is like I just
1:27:12never wanted to stop until I got
1:27:13everything done and then you start
1:27:15resenting the work and you stay you have
1:27:16those nights where you do feel lonely
1:27:18and it's like it's 1:00 everyone else is
1:27:19asleep.
1:27:20Like, "Why do I do this to myself?" Um
1:27:23and that was a big lesson for me to like
1:27:24start avoid those moments. Like you
1:27:26really have to treat yourself kindly in
1:27:27business. Like still work hard and
1:27:29you're going to have to do things you
1:27:30don't want to do, but I think overall
1:27:33being a little bit more kind to yourself
1:27:34in those ways enables you to do it
1:27:36longer.
1:27:36Do you reckon as well burnout comes from
1:27:38those moments in business where things
1:27:40aren't going as well? So, cuz I I
1:27:43genuinely believe no matter what
1:27:44business goes in seasons. Like we're in
1:27:46a good season right now and I'm [ __ ]
1:27:48loving it. But I know that hard times
1:27:51will come and I feel like you're more
1:27:53prone to burnout when you're constantly
1:27:55just pushing [ __ ] uphill and not seeing
1:27:58the results that you want.
1:27:59I would think definitely more often than
1:28:01not, absolutely, because it's like when
1:28:03you like I've been through ups and downs
1:28:05many different times. Like I've that's
1:28:06why it's like
1:28:07with the first one or two times you have
1:28:09those down periods in business, you're
1:28:10freaking out cuz you're like, "Holy
1:28:11[ __ ] the business is over." And then
1:28:13you realize, "Okay, that's happened 10
1:28:14times. It There's always ups and downs
1:28:16and you come out the other side of it."
1:28:17But I think it's human nature. Like,
1:28:19it's it's like just basic psychology. If
1:28:21things aren't working well, do you
1:28:22really want to go out and show up and
1:28:24give all the energy to something that
1:28:25isn't working? You know what I mean? Cuz
1:28:27like when when things are working well,
1:28:28like you you're living off the
1:28:29adrenaline, you're buzzing, you've got
1:28:30all these things. But I think like
1:28:32that's when you have to separate
1:28:33yourself from the results of your
1:28:34business that day. And start looking at
1:28:36it a bigger time horizon and realize
1:28:38that, you know, no one's perfect, you
1:28:40know, regardless if they're worth a
1:28:41billion dollars or they're worth two
1:28:42dollars. They all have ups and downs and
1:28:44failures. Like, some of them like most
1:28:45wealthy people in the world have been
1:28:46bankrupt multiple times.
1:28:48But how do you detach your self-worth
1:28:50from the value of your business?
1:28:52Well,
1:28:53the way I did it was realizing that this
1:28:55is only harming me in a negative way.
1:28:56There's no positive in me doing it. And
1:28:58once you can realize that having this
1:29:00sort of thought process or this sort of
1:29:02view on something, it's only going to
1:29:03harm you in a negative way,
1:29:05then it's like just give give that up.
1:29:07Now, I still think you need
1:29:08self-awareness to realize ways you could
1:29:09be better off when things aren't doing
1:29:10well.
1:29:11Um but if you let that, and it happens
1:29:13with so many people, affect your
1:29:14self-worth, then you're losing.
1:29:17You've already lost. It's like, you
1:29:19know?
1:29:20Well, cuz I find sometimes my happiness
1:29:22is so contingent on how sales are going.
1:29:25Yeah. It's easy to get caught in that.
1:29:27Yeah, and I I want to get better at
1:29:30like
1:29:31working through that.
1:29:31you if you can be truly happy when the
1:29:34business isn't doing well,
1:29:35Yeah.
1:29:35and when the business is doing well,
1:29:37Yeah.
1:29:37Easy. That's the easy part.
1:29:39Yeah.
1:29:39Um so, I think getting used to the
1:29:41periods
1:29:43um where things aren't going as well as
1:29:44you want, maybe aren't growing as
1:29:45quickly, or you've got to deal with all
1:29:47these like challenges with regulations
1:29:49or legal stuff, whatever it is, the
1:29:51really [ __ ] stuff that you don't want to
1:29:53enjoy spending your time on as an
1:29:54entrepreneur. If you can get used to
1:29:57doing that with a smile on your face,
1:29:59and sometimes it's easier said than
1:30:01done. Um then I think in the good
1:30:03moments, and then it's like there is ups
1:30:05and downs, but if you can get used to
1:30:06eating [ __ ] in those
1:30:07bad moments and not let it affect your
1:30:09mental health and and the way you feel
1:30:10and operate. I mean, I think that's one
1:30:12of the one of the the strengths that
1:30:14I've been able to do. It's like my
1:30:15self-worth comes from knowing who I am
1:30:17and knowing my value, knowing what I'm
1:30:18here to do and achieve in the world and
1:30:20what I have been able to do. And things
1:30:22aren't going well, I don't I try not let
1:30:24that take over.
1:30:25What I've found helpful as well is just
1:30:27reminding myself in those bad moments
1:30:28that business is hard.
1:30:30Very hard.
1:30:31Not everyone does it for that reason.
1:30:34And it's not meant to be
1:30:36roses and rainbows all the time. So, you
1:30:39have just have to push through those
1:30:40moments
1:30:41and then hopefully something will will
1:30:43come from it.
1:30:43I was at an event
1:30:46at Boia at Boia event at Icebergs 2 days
1:30:49ago.
1:30:50And a lot of people like previous guests
1:30:51at the podcast were catching up with.
1:30:53And one guest that came up that wasn't
1:30:55there, he was actually in Sydney, Adam
1:30:56Bouris, made like the top 50 people in
1:30:58e-com
1:30:59yesterday. So, congrats Adam if you're
1:31:00listening.
1:31:02A lot of people said like one of the
1:31:03episodes that really stood out did at
1:31:05the end of last year was
1:31:06Adam and Raquel's podcast because
1:31:08they're a business now they're doing I
1:31:10think like 20 million a year. Like they
1:31:11did like a million dollars in a day or
1:31:13some like some crazy stuff over Black
1:31:14Friday.
1:31:16But they come on and they talk about the
1:31:17[ __ ] [ __ ] moments, too. And it's like
1:31:20if the people that like some of the best
1:31:23performing e-com brands in Australia
1:31:24that are growing, if they're having
1:31:26moments where they're tight on cash or
1:31:27they're really stressed out or they're
1:31:29not enjoying what they're doing right
1:31:30now,
1:31:32and then you realize if that's happening
1:31:33to them, of course it's going to happen
1:31:34to everybody in between. Then it's just
1:31:36like that's business and then that's one
1:31:38of my biggest things that I learned the
1:31:39first year that was surprise me. Holy
1:31:41[ __ ] business is 90% fixing issues and
1:31:44problem solving.
1:31:46Right? And if you don't like that,
1:31:48and it took me a bit of time to
1:31:49recalibrate and realize I didn't really
1:31:51think that know that's what I was
1:31:52getting into.
1:31:54And if you don't like that, you don't
1:31:55want to do that, you're in the wrong
1:31:55space.
1:31:57Yeah.
1:31:57So, that's just part of it. So, yeah, I
1:32:00think I think the understanding that a
1:32:02lot of people whether they're same size
1:32:04as you they're smaller or bigger or
1:32:05going through these things
1:32:07you know, reach out to a friend maybe
1:32:08speak to someone that you that you know
1:32:10is in business and chat to them that
1:32:11they probably have a very similar story
1:32:12that they went through.
1:32:13Yeah, I feel like whenever I catch up
1:32:14with a business friend it's just us
1:32:16venting about things that are going
1:32:17wrong.
1:32:18Oh, why do we put ourselves through it?
1:32:20So, why do you continue to to put
1:32:22yourself through the the emotional
1:32:24roller coaster that is being in
1:32:25business?
1:32:27Um you mean why do I do it?
1:32:29I think um
1:32:31I think growing up struggling with my
1:32:34sexuality there has always been this
1:32:37inherent belief that I'm not um
1:32:43that I'm not valuable maybe. I don't
1:32:45know and there's like there's
1:32:47so so much of my worth or what's driving
1:32:51me comes from
1:32:53some sense of like external validation.
1:32:56That's probably why 99% of entrepreneurs
1:32:58start for one reason or another.
1:32:59Well, I think but a lot of them wouldn't
1:33:01admit that. Yeah, or maybe know it.
1:33:05The the thing that I um thing that I I
1:33:08think we all need to do at some point is
1:33:11be aware of that and I think it's good
1:33:12fuel at the start like first 5 years but
1:33:14it's like you can't let that fuel you
1:33:16for the next 50.
1:33:17100%.
1:33:17You know?
1:33:19Like what is the next layer of
1:33:20motivation that you can lean into when
1:33:22you've healed all that stuff and
1:33:23realized no, you are valuable. You are
1:33:25you know?
1:33:26Well, I think in addition to that I love
1:33:28the autonomy and the creativity of
1:33:30running a business.
1:33:31I wouldn't say I massively enjoy what
1:33:34you just mentioned about solving
1:33:35problems and [ __ ] going wrong all the
1:33:37time. That's not what I like but I like
1:33:39creating something and I like that
1:33:40feedback loop of having an impact on
1:33:43someone.
1:33:44Yeah, and like you said I've got like a
1:33:46lot of lessons that I've taken from
1:33:47business. If I was doing it again yes,
1:33:49we had amazing product amazing time but
1:33:52like starting with like a TGA FDA
1:33:55medical device there's been so many
1:33:58[ __ ]
1:33:59not fun things to deal with in doing
1:34:00that.
1:34:01Yeah.
1:34:01You know, and like I think we always
1:34:02think sometimes the grass is greener on
1:34:03the other side.
1:34:05It's like and this is part of the
1:34:06podcast I just listened to. For anyone
1:34:07that hasn't listened to it, it came out
1:34:08like a week ago, Alex and Aussie and and
1:34:10um Steven Bartlett. It's like oh like
1:34:13like there's [ __ ] you just don't know
1:34:14about. And then you get into a new
1:34:16industry and you realize oh there's [ __ ]
1:34:17here, too. And it's that's just
1:34:18business. Um and there'll be periods
1:34:21where there's a lot less and like those
1:34:22are like the amazing periods, but I
1:34:24think like the expectation that it's
1:34:26going to be easy and you're not going to
1:34:27have to do things you don't want to do
1:34:28just cuz you're your own boss
1:34:30Mhm.
1:34:30isn't realistic. I do business now
1:34:31because I I I couldn't not.
1:34:33Like I couldn't not do it. I could I
1:34:34couldn't go back to any other life.
1:34:36Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm the same. When I
1:34:37started working for myself doing
1:34:39freelance copywriting, from that moment
1:34:40on I was like, "Holy [ __ ] I'm never
1:34:43going to work for someone else ever
1:34:44again." So
1:34:4615 hours a day for yourself than go to
1:34:48that office where you're working with
1:34:50people you hate, you're unfulfilled, you
1:34:52live for Friday, and then it gets to
1:34:534:00 Sunday and you're already thinking
1:34:55about Monday morning and you're like
1:34:56I've lived that life. That ain't for me.
1:34:58I don't know how I did it.
1:35:00Yeah, exactly.
1:35:00really like I think in a deeper level
1:35:03depressed in a way I didn't realize.
1:35:05Like not depressed maybe chemically in
1:35:07my brain, but like on a soul level.
1:35:09Mhm.
1:35:10I just I wasn't happy doing it. Like so
1:35:12much like waking up and that's why like
1:35:14so many people are in that system and
1:35:16you don't realize how unhappy you are
1:35:17until you take yourself out of it and
1:35:19you realize [ __ ]
1:35:21Also just I think um if I look at myself
1:35:24during that time like the drug taking,
1:35:25the alcohol abuse, escapism, right? Was
1:35:28so prominent and yeah, my mom said to me
1:35:30at one point like, "Oh, you're doing it
1:35:31as an escape." And I was like, "No, I'm
1:35:32just doing it to have fun with my
1:35:34mates." But I don't take drugs now. I
1:35:36don't drink alcohol now, like very
1:35:38rarely.
1:35:39Um and I'm so much happier for that.
1:35:41Like I look back to periods when I was
1:35:43in my like like 19, 20, 21.
1:35:46Um back when the cross in Sydney was
1:35:47like still really good. And me and my I
1:35:50I guess it's that age, but we used to go
1:35:52out like Friday, Saturday like
1:35:55both days in the cross for like there
1:35:57was like maybe a year or two straight
1:35:58and I look back now thinking I couldn't
1:36:00have been too happy if like I lived for
1:36:02like that Friday, Saturday night
1:36:03partying every week. You know, so
1:36:06You kind of have to do it to realize
1:36:07though.
1:36:08Yeah, of course. But I didn't realize at
1:36:10the time but thinking back now I'm like
1:36:11I don't know if maybe it's just the age
1:36:13but yeah, I think finding healthier
1:36:14things to
1:36:15Maybe we're just old now.
1:36:16Maybe we're just old, yeah, well.
1:36:18Um Davey, it was I've had an incredible
1:36:20conversation with you. Thank you so
1:36:21much. Um final question. Again, a lot of
1:36:23people would already know who you are
1:36:24and where to find you but for those who
1:36:25don't, where can they find yourself and
1:36:27the business online?
1:36:28So you can find boringwithoutyou.com
1:36:31or boringwithoutyou_ on Instagram and
1:36:33you can find me skincare Davey on TikTok
1:36:35and Instagram.
1:36:36Awesome. I love it. So much great value
1:36:38on your personal page as well. So if
1:36:40you're into interested in skincare and
1:36:41how you can, you know, approach that
1:36:42better, go go follow Davey.
1:36:45Thanks for having me.
1:36:45Amazing. Thank you so much.

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