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We Are A Generation Of Influencers, Not Builders — Transcript

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0:00Investing is for lazy people in my view
0:02and I say that as an investor because
0:04now I'm making this transition now. I've
0:05been in the business for 12 years. The
0:07first 6 years I was an operator. My
0:09second phase I thought I could outsource
0:11execution and be a big boy.
0:13>> So I started writing checks and then
0:15founder showed me. I'm not investing if
0:18it's not directly related to what I care
0:20about. What do I care about? I just want
0:22to make sure every African can get a job
0:25that pays them $10,000 a year. It's not
0:28difficult. The question then is for the
0:30investor who is lazy like you said who's
0:33like but I still want to be able to
0:34deploy cash. What are you supposed to be
0:35looking for?
0:36>> Three things, right? First of all, ina
0:39helped create two of Africa's most
0:41important technology companies. Today I
0:44is building a different kind of future
0:46through future Africa through learn to
0:48earn through a belief that Africa's
0:50greatest resources isn't capital it's
0:52people.
0:53>> You get rich in one of three ways. One
0:55by producing the cheapest product. two
0:57by selling the most expensive product
0:59and three by the government forcing
1:01everybody to buy from you. Every
1:02billionaire fits one of the three. Every
1:05trillionaire fits one. Elon is even all
1:07three. [laughter]
1:10And so what that means for me is how do
1:12you build a workforce of people from
1:16Africa [music] who are able to leverage
1:18AI to be the most productive human
1:20beings in the world and at a cost basis
1:22that makes whatever Elon Musk or Meta or
1:26Antropic [music] or whatever is building
1:28look like an expensive toy. You've paid
1:31full price for everything. What's the
1:33most expensive lesson on that list that
1:35[music] someone climbing right now can
1:37have for free?
1:39>> Honestly,
1:41>> quick one before we jump into the
1:43Afropolitan podcast. I have a problem.
1:46So, my issue is that 72% of you are not
1:49subscribed to the Afropolitan podcast.
1:51So, I need you to click the subscribe
1:53button so you can join the Afropolitan
1:55family. Now, we can jump back to it.
1:57>> E, welcome back.
2:00>> Thank you. So, someone may click your
2:03specific video. They may be winding down
2:05from a long day, working out, maybe on
2:08the way to work. So, the first thing I
2:10want you to tell our audience is what
2:12are you building right now and why is it
2:15important?
2:16>> That's a incredible question. Well, I
2:19mean, right now,
2:21I think that
2:24as a as a race,
2:27we need to start rethinking M
2:31>> um how and what we build um and for me
2:35and the and the length of time in which
2:38we build because I feel like there are
2:40two visions of the world right
2:41>> okay
2:42>> on the one hand there's a vision of the
2:44world where
2:48I'm picking my words
2:50>> don't pick your words
2:51>> I [laughter] have to
2:55[gasps] there's a vision of events where
2:58there are people who are building to
3:00essentially eradicate
3:02our species.
3:04>> Yeah.
3:04>> And when I say our species, I mean the
3:08human race. Um, and their view of the
3:11world is a view where human beings are
3:15subjugated to machines that they
3:16control.
3:19Right?
3:21I'm building the alternate view of the
3:23world where every human being has more
3:26power than the most powerful
3:28institutions in the world which are
3:30today controlled by a particular set of
3:33people.
3:35>> Now I'm building this on a shoestring
3:37budget from Lagos, Nigeria [laughter]
3:42and with the other side more incredibly
3:46resourced than anybody can imagine. But
3:49I'm building it all the same because God
3:52is with me. Um and so what that means
3:55for me is
3:57um today the first step is really how do
4:01you build
4:02a workforce of people
4:06um from Africa primarily because we have
4:09that people advantage
4:12>> who are able to leverage AI to be the
4:16most productive human beings in the
4:17world and at a cost basis that makes
4:21whatever Elon Musk or Meta or Antropic
4:25or whatever is building look like an
4:27expensive toy
4:29>> because at the end of the day value
4:33is really what will drive enterprise
4:36adoption of AI
4:38and human beings in Africa I always say
4:41a wheelbarrow in the US and a
4:43wheelbarrow in Nigeria
4:46are the same wheelbarrow
4:48>> right the difference is who's pushing it
4:51in the US you've got a 3 million, 7
4:53million, 100 million depending on who
4:55you ask engineer pushing the wheelbarrow
4:58of AI in Nigeria. If I can give somebody
5:00in Nigeria that knowledge for $10,000,
5:04I completely change the economics of who
5:08creates value, what creates value, and
5:10how value is attributed and created.
5:13Because guess what? The greed of the
5:15rest of the world means that they would
5:18gravitate to whatever is cheapest. The
5:21west vision is we subsidize.
5:24Our vision is we built
5:28>> and we build it with fantastic
5:29economics.
5:31>> Is there a reason I mean China has
5:33basically taken on that role for now
5:34right? In manufacturing but also state
5:38subsidized yes and open-source AI models
5:41as well. Is that similar to and and also
5:43just for our viewers because you know
5:45when we start talking about these things
5:46I realize some people either because
5:48they don't necessarily know the history
5:49or maybe they don't read up as much
5:51don't understand where the world is in
5:53in this AI race right
5:55>> we know about claude we know about chat
5:57GPT we know about um meta etc
6:00>> what do you believe like China's role is
6:03in this other side of thing which is
6:05like you said in subsidizing some of
6:06this value so the rest of the world can
6:08actually get to compete Okay.
6:12So you have to look at the world. There
6:15are three visions of how society
6:17organizes
6:19>> value. Yeah.
6:20>> Right.
6:21>> In China the primary protagonist is a
6:25state. The state is the collective will
6:27of the people. So the state subsidizes
6:30industrial you know power. Da da da da
6:33da. Right. In the US is corporations.
6:37>> Yeah. America is a country that was
6:40built by corporations
6:42and in fact I would argue in most of the
6:44western world Nigeria for example was
6:47colonized by corporate charter. Yes,
6:49>> Royal Niger Company. It wasn't this is a
6:51company. That's why it operates like an
6:53extractive machine.
6:56>> But you know what? For us in Africa,
6:59it's people. People are what drive all
7:01the value. When you look at trade, you
7:03look at culture, you look at,
7:05>> you know, people, human beings, talent,
7:08they the ones that drive all the value.
7:11Now what is happening in China when you
7:14look at what China has done over the
7:16last 50 70 years is that the state has
7:19deliberately built a society
7:22>> that is optimally productive but only as
7:25a collective.
7:28>> There's no create. Have you ever heard
7:29of a Chinese creative [laughter]
7:32that is global?
7:33>> No. No.
7:34>> You ever heard of the Bunner boy of
7:36China? [laughter]
7:37>> No. None of that.
7:39>> Good. There's a reason for it, right?
7:42>> Um, for a country with over a billion
7:44people, there should be at least one
7:46star.
7:47>> That's global.
7:48>> The only guy who came close to it was
7:50Jackman. He jumped him in jail.
7:52[laughter]
7:52>> Yeah.
7:53>> It's true. It's true. Korea even has
7:54more stars than actually China.
7:56>> Yeah. Exactly. So, you know that it's
7:59just not in their culture
8:01>> to create stars. Everybody, there's one
8:03star. He's the president. [laughter]
8:06IS THE SHINING TOOL
8:08>> OF THE Chinese Communist Party. Anybody
8:10else is a problem. [laughter]
8:13>> Well, versus the and we go to the US. I
8:17mean, what you have are corporations
8:20that are embodied by a single
8:22individual. Rockefeller,
8:24>> it's a corporation. Standard oil
8:26embodied by a single individual. Elon
8:29corporation and by individual,
8:31>> you know, Microsoft,
8:34>> you understand? So they recognize that
8:35people like the individual but the
8:37corporation and the shareholders are
8:38more important.
8:40>> When you come to Africa, everybody's a
8:42star whether whether whether it's true
8:44or not. [laughter]
8:46So these three different visions of how
8:48to create value are competing now in the
8:50global marketplace. And I continue to
8:53think that because of where technology
8:55has gotten to and the amount of
8:58technology that supports the sovereign
9:00individual and because of the kind of
9:02training we have because we don't have
9:04states with capacity for control.
9:06Neither do we have corporations
9:09that are ex that are beyond the
9:11extension. They're not corporations of
9:13shareholders. They're really
9:14corporations of single individuals that
9:16control and drive an interest.
9:19>> So we need to now create when we talk
9:22about one person billion dollar
9:24companies the honest truth the only
9:25place where that's really possible
9:27culturally is in Africa.
9:29>> Wait I have some I have [laughter] some
9:31thoughts. So this is so interesting you
9:34said that and I I have two layers where
9:37I want to go with this question. I'm
9:38going to give you some context.
9:40>> So my main
9:43What I hope
9:45>> people who watch this episode, I really
9:46hope more African-Americans watch this
9:48episode. As of this time, you know, I
9:51don't know when this episode's going to
9:52air, but as of this time, um, there is
9:54huge diaspora wars right now because of
9:56what David said on a podcast.
9:58>> Um, I'm not going to go into what he
10:00said. He has apologized,
10:02>> but there is this huge diaspora wars
10:06happening between African-Americans and
10:07Africans for different reasons, right?
10:09And the one thing I keep saying is
10:11number one, I don't know why we're
10:13fighting because we literally don't have
10:14the leverage. We don't have the the
10:16leverage but or economic leverage. But
10:19number two,
10:20interestingly in the US there was right
10:23now there's around 700,000 black women
10:26who have been laid off or left
10:27corporate.
10:28>> And so I've been writing about
10:30solarreneurs, right? And I keep saying I
10:33I envision more of us will be
10:35solarpreneurs. We're going to be buying
10:36from each other. That's the economy. So
10:39do you feel like Africa could create a
10:42economy like that and even further if
10:45more solarreneurs happen for black
10:47Americans in the US could that be its
10:49own economy?
10:51>> So I want you to think beyond an
10:53economy.
10:53>> Okay?
10:54>> And I explain why.
10:57This concept that you get rich by buying
10:59and selling to yourselves, it's like
11:02fiction.
11:03>> Okay? You get rich in one of three ways.
11:07One, by producing the cheapest product
11:10[laughter]
11:11because everybody wants to buy from you.
11:14Two, by selling the most expensive
11:16product because everybody wants to
11:19everybody with the money wants to buy
11:20from you. It's a status symbol. And
11:22three, by the government forcing
11:24everybody to buy from you. Every
11:27billionaire fits one of the three
11:28>> monopoly.
11:30>> Every trillionaire fits one. Elon is
11:32even all three.
11:33>> [laughter]
11:35>> True.
11:36>> Government revenue.
11:37>> Yeah.
11:38>> Uh because who's going to launch a space
11:40rocket? Him.
11:42>> Uh cheapest EV, cheapest rockets.
11:45>> Yeah.
11:45>> Right. And the most expensive stock in
11:48the world.
11:49>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
11:50>> I say Elon is a product to rich people.
11:52He's supposed to defraud you. I have no
11:54concern. I mean, if you're a poor person
11:56buying Elon stock, like you're very
11:58special [laughter]
12:00cuz you clearly don't know what you
12:01should be doing with money.
12:05So the truth is
12:08this idea that solopreneurship black
12:11people kumbaya what just we're yes we're
12:14going to grow to be the vast majority of
12:16the world's um population but as of
12:19right this moment you're just 12% of the
12:21US economy and you don't have the
12:23economic base to sell to yourself you
12:25know there's a a saying I I I've now
12:27adopted I Pastor Podu was the one who
12:30said he said that one of his one that
12:32the best advice he's ever gotten. He
12:35said, "Two poor men cannot help each
12:37other. That is the law." [laughter]
12:40I've not adopted it because it's a fact.
12:42You know, you're poor, you're laid off,
12:44she's poor, she's laid off. You're not
12:46going to be able to sell to each other.
12:48That is just the law. So, the question
12:50you need to be asking yourself is using
12:53all these tools, how can I sell the
12:56cheapest product? How can I sell the
12:59most expensive status product? or how
13:01can I leverage or get government to
13:04force everybody else to buy my stuff?
13:07>> Period.
13:09Now the factors of the production is the
13:14core factor of production today is
13:15intelligence,
13:17>> right? Um it's intelligence. That's it.
13:20Like at the end of the day, you can get
13:22agents to do your marketing, your
13:24website, your what else? Posting on
13:27social media, what else? And it sell
13:30they can type for you can type for you.
13:33>> They can create audio for you.
13:34>> And China will handle the the
13:36manufacturing.
13:37>> So you don't need to get involved,
13:39>> right? You just order, rebrand,
13:42>> sell. What else do you need?
13:44>> Yeah.
13:46>> What else? What? What? What else you
13:47need? You need some account money? What
13:49I mean? What are you
13:49>> accounting?
13:50>> So your job is just how do I sell the
13:53cheapest product for the most money
13:55[laughter] that I can get away with? And
13:58then if you're lucky and you have the
13:59connections, get government [laughter]
14:02to force everybody to buy it. Period.
14:05>> So I was watching um Alaji Dangote's
14:08interview with the North um the
14:10Norwegian.
14:11>> Yes, that was an interview.
14:13>> And when I was watching it, I remember
14:15saying I want to talk to E and get E's
14:16perspective on this interview because it
14:18feels like Alaja has gone through an
14:20awakening, right? And one of the things
14:22he said, I think they asked him a
14:23question about legacy and what is he
14:24really doing this for? And I think maybe
14:26at some point got like pissed off at
14:29like as like why are we in this
14:30situation as black people like what do
14:32you mean I can't do this or I can't do
14:33and then now he's in a building phase.
14:35And so the reason the question I'm
14:36actually getting to is whether it's Elon
14:38or Dangote when people have this these
14:41arguments as to where is the company
14:43this value this high or is it of value
14:46or is it of this. I was explaining to
14:47somebody that
14:49>> I'm getting to the point where I want my
14:51money to have a particular world view
14:53which is
14:55>> there's a fact that I saw a rocket
14:57coming down from the sky and two
14:58chopsticks cut it. That's a fact. It's
15:00not bins. I've driven a Tesla. I've seen
15:04him do all these other things. So if he
15:05comes to say to me we're going to Mars,
15:08I'm going to back the person that I've
15:10seen catch a rocket. It's just a fact.
15:11Like what are we talking about here?
15:13>> Then the same thing with Dangote. It's
15:14like, look, we know how hard it is to
15:16build a refinery.
15:18>> You have built the world's largest
15:19single train refinery. This is a fact.
15:22>> 700,000 barrels produced per day. So, if
15:24you're saying you're going to IPO, I'm
15:26going to give you my money. I think the
15:27question I'm asking is how do we reframe
15:30people's mindsets where it's not that
15:32somebody's saying come and give me
15:33money, let me go and create straws. I
15:35know that straws are not important, but
15:36somebody is saying give me this money so
15:38I can go and build. And I think I was
15:40reading a Bloomberg article where he's
15:42saying we're getting back to the phase
15:43in life where folks would buy stocks for
15:46the companies then go invest it to then
15:48build future. So whether it was the
15:50railroads back in the day, right? So
15:52what does that look like when you have
15:54when you have that mindset cuz you're an
15:55investor as well. How do you evaluate
15:57some of these opportunities whether it's
15:58Elon's SpaceX IPO or Dangote's upcoming
16:01IPO?
16:03>> You know the question I always ask I
16:05have a radical view.
16:06>> Yeah, please.
16:06>> The question is who did they give their
16:07money to? Mhm.
16:08>> Oh, them when they were. [laughter]
16:10>> No, no, even now like I I've never heard
16:12of Elon really investing anything.
16:14>> It's true. [laughter]
16:14>> It's true.
16:16>> And I know I like doesn't really invest.
16:18>> Yeah.
16:19>> SO I'M LIKE I So me I'm not investing
16:21all those things because I just want to
16:23invest in myself.
16:24>> Yeah. True. True.
16:26>> So I I just rather keep my money and
16:28then build something of cuz investing is
16:30for lazy people in my view. And I say
16:32that as an investor because now I'm
16:34making this transition now. I I feel
16:36like look my I've been in the business
16:38for 12 years. The first six years I was
16:40an operator.
16:42>> So I built businesses with supervision.
16:46Let's put it that way with people. I
16:48built business. I learned a lot from
16:49people like Jeremy. I worked with GB. I
16:52worked with Laddy and G. So I built
16:54businesses. My second phase I thought I
16:57could outsource execution and be a big
16:59boy. So I started writing checks and men
17:02founder showed me sh
17:05>> [laughter]
17:07>> Woo sh right and I was like I was like
17:10well two three things right first of all
17:13the problems I'm trying to solve are too
17:14important for a bunch of founders who
17:17just want to ride a big car jack
17:20>> to like for me to trust entrust them
17:22with my vision
17:24>> do you understand what I'm saying for
17:25what society looks like
17:26>> so I'm not interested in doing that
17:28anymore subsidizing that lifestyle two I
17:30can do it better than them
17:32>> I actually built before so it's not Like
17:34and sometimes, you know, I think
17:36founders get into this mindset that like
17:38they're the only ones who can build and
17:40if investors don't back them
17:42>> then it means that nothing will get
17:44built and it's a lie. [laughter]
17:47>> Like some of us maybe not not all
17:49investors can say this but some of us
17:50investors can actually build stuff and
17:52we have built stuff before.
17:53>> Yeah. And then the last thing in my view
17:56right is like the execution risk of
18:00building in Africa is unnatural.
18:04>> An investor really and I've struggled
18:06with this for a long time cuz my view
18:08used to be that look an investor should
18:09be able to help build. But my point is
18:11if you can help build why don't you just
18:13build? If you're an investor you're
18:15trusting somebody else's execution which
18:16is kind of the answer to your question.
18:18>> Now I asked myself the building the
18:20biggest rhino in the world is it does it
18:22really matter to me? No, [laughter]
18:24I I got like look, I'm not saying I I
18:27respect Alaji to the utmost and I'm a
18:30fan. I've been to that refinery three
18:32four times. I'm I'm like such a big fan,
18:34but it's not the most important thing to
18:36me as Inolua Abuji. That's not what I
18:38was on earth to do
18:40>> to
18:41>> build refineries, right? That's Alaji's,
18:43you understand? That's that's Alaji's,
18:46you know, mission and that's what
18:47industrializing Africa. I don't really
18:49care about that, right? Elon is taking a
18:52I don't do I really care about Mars. I
18:54don't care. Do you understand what I'm
18:55saying? So I think for me where I'm
18:57getting to in my life is like I'm not
18:59investing if it's not directly
19:01related to what I care about. And for me
19:03what do I care about? I just want to
19:05make sure that every African can get a
19:09job that pays them $10,000 a year. It's
19:12not difficult. [laughter]
19:14>> That's all. That's all. Every young
19:16African can get a job that pays 10 at
19:19least $10,000 a year. Period. Period.
19:22That's it.
19:23>> But wouldn't you say using the analysis,
19:25right, maybe an Elon or even an AGI
19:28said,
19:30>> why would I go and invest in somebody
19:31else when I'm the one in the field
19:33building?
19:34>> I don't think that's the mindset they
19:35have cuz that's not the mindset I have.
19:37So, so the mindset they have probably is
19:38like
19:39>> this guy is doing something interesting.
19:40I really like him
19:42>> but what I'm trying to do is more
19:43important.
19:44>> Yeah.
19:44>> Yeah.
19:44>> That's all. So I don't even think it's
19:46like they look at it and they're like oh
19:47I don't want to invest in my friend's
19:48business. I'm sure I'm sure he could
19:51probably like maybe help somebody and
19:53give but he's just like man I need to
19:54put all my concentration attention
19:57vision focus on this and if something
19:59doesn't directly serve this purpose
20:02>> it's not the most important thing for me
20:04to focus on
20:05>> but then but just so that we don't get
20:07away from this question now let's
20:08separate it from the Alajia and Elon
20:10capital markets do matter right like you
20:13need to be able to actually raise from
20:14the public so I think the question then
20:16is for the investor who is lazy like you
20:19said, who's like, but I still want to be
20:20able to deploy cash. What is the mindset
20:23that they should have when it's coming
20:24to either if it's angel investing or
20:26you're choosing to invest in an IPO or
20:28what are you supposed to be looking for?
20:30>> Okay, look, my view is and and this
20:32might again radical view might be
20:34privilege talking, but my view is invest
20:36in what matters to you
20:38>> and I think that's the lesson black
20:39people have to learn. Like I I feel like
20:42the rest of the world beyond all the
20:44theatrics like Elon wants to Africa is
20:48here. We have energy resources. He can
20:50do everything he wants to do here. We
20:52need internet. He's only willing to sell
20:53it to us from Mars. You you understand
20:55what I'm saying? Like my point is what
20:57matters to him is building a new
20:58civilization. I'm sure they will not
21:00allow us there. [laughter]
21:03>> I'm sure they allow us there. I'm just
21:05telling you in advance that if you're
21:07thinking that you're going to be on that
21:08PL [laughter]
21:10mission to you're not there. So if you
21:12are the one thinking that you're going
21:13to be there well sorry if building for
21:17his own world view I'm not saying more
21:19than that there too.
21:20>> Do you understand what I'm saying? Like
21:22where mas can be mashers can be code for
21:25other things.
21:26>> Let's [laughter] put it that way. But
21:28he's not building for you. Yeah.
21:30>> So, if you're a black person and you're
21:31investing in SpaceX, you have to ask
21:34yourself, right, like how does this
21:36align with the things that matter most
21:37to me?
21:39>> Now, where I would now say if I'm
21:41investing in Allergy, I'm like, Alaji is
21:42a symbol of African industrialization
21:46and can do spirit, I will probably buy
21:48one share when it goes public. I'm not
21:50looking at it as a wealth creator for
21:52me.
21:52>> Do you understand what I'm saying? And
21:53I'm like, I'll put the share certificate
21:55on my wall and remind myself that if
21:57Alaji did it,
21:58>> it's not impossible for me to do the
22:00same.
22:01>> It makes sense
22:02>> from that perspective.
22:04>> But I feel like we're the easiest to get
22:06carried away by all these get-richqu
22:09schemes and then they always dump on us,
22:11right? After we use culture to ship it,
22:14we did all this work for crypto. End of
22:15the day, now Donald Trump make money.
22:17[laughter]
22:20So what's the point? AND I WE WERE NOT A
22:23GROUP THAT we when we carried we carried
22:26was it app that their silly app those
22:28Anderson people's app
22:30>> which one which one and a6 club house
22:33club house club house club house
22:34>> club HOUSE WE CARRY IT on our head they
22:36didn't allow us to invest end of the day
22:39you understand what I'm saying
22:40>> it was a good thing we were blocked
22:42>> even the twitter now carry our forehead
22:45[laughter]
22:45look you're right you're right you're
22:47right
22:47>> we just love to INVEST IN OTHER
22:50>> [laughter]
22:51>> FUNNY FOR FOR ONCE IN our lives, right?
22:53Like that's why [laughter] this fight
22:55that we're like just like forget and for
22:58me the way I think about this stuff is
23:00like look
23:01>> Africa has been shouting Africa to the
23:02world. Africa to the Africa to the world
23:04you have people that look like you who
23:06are already the world as far as
23:08entertainment is concerned.
23:10>> Why would you antagonize them?
23:13>> Why is it it's not is it even strategic
23:15for you? Do you understand what I'm
23:17saying? whatever. I don't know what he
23:19said. I don't watch, you know, all this
23:21stuff. But I'm like, what what was
23:23important about what he was saying
23:26>> that he had to say it in like he had to
23:28even say it like how how and and this is
23:31something that has kept me now I mean
23:33this last few years like this thing I
23:35want to do is it strategic to my goal.
23:37Is it going to help somebody get a job
23:40that $10,000 a year? If it's not, you
23:42will notice that I won't say anything.
23:43I've not said anything for the last so
23:45so and so years. I'm like, ah, it
23:46doesn't help me. And it's helped a lot
23:49because,
23:51you know, we as black people still have
23:53a very high signal to noise ratio.
23:56>> Yes.
23:57>> Very high. And we need to lower it. Like
23:59Asians don't discuss everything.
24:02>> Do you understand? Even noise to signal
24:05ratio, right?
24:06>> Noise to signal ratio. Yeah. Yeah. Like
24:07my my view is like if you look at a
24:10Chinese guy, if you're not talking
24:12minerals, you're not talking
24:14manufacturing
24:15>> and you're not talking
24:16>> rare metals,
24:17>> rare metal, all this Iran wala, they
24:19didn't answer anybody. [laughter]
24:21Jew bombing, that's your business.
24:25>> As far as they concerned, they're very
24:27focused and I feel like
24:28>> if only Africans could be focused,
24:31[snorts]
24:32>> you understand? leave all this social
24:34issue just like okay you're at the
24:37bottom of the temple in terms of the
24:40world is after everybody you even be
24:42even below some animals you see
24:44[laughter]
24:44that's the truth that's the truth of
24:46where we are today
24:48>> as a power block
24:48>> as a power block we have no power
24:51>> what are we going to do all of us to
24:53make sure that we go up in this toe
24:55tempo and stop talking forget anything
24:58else if it if it's not going to help us
25:00to be higher in that power talk is not a
25:03priority.
25:04>> Our politicians not a priority. They can
25:06be as messed up as they want to be. They
25:08should just leave us alone.
25:10>> You know, if it's not, we're not talking
25:12soft soft power helps us to move up in
25:14the totem block. Okay. How do we own
25:16more of it? That's a conversation to be
25:17had. Industrialization,
25:20>> we can produce more for our people for
25:21cheaper instead of importing everything
25:23that helps us, you know, investment
25:25allows us to build infrastructure,
25:26allows us to continue to compound wealth
25:28and keep it within us. That's a
25:31conversation to be had. Anything else,
25:33morals, all this stuff. God bless them.
25:35Don't get me wrong, right? These things
25:37are important. But why are those the
25:39priority conversation?
25:41>> Yeah,
25:41>> you're just talking about
25:42>> I Yeah, that's literally what this thing
25:46drag me and I said I said to them me you
25:50know you know [laughter]
25:52>> you're left
25:55for them.
25:55>> Leave those Twitter people. Leave them.
25:58leave. Literally, if you go to Chica's
26:00profile, it's repost. Repost. [laughter]
26:02All I do is I search what they're saying
26:04about proposal. I just repost it. I
26:05don't I have nothing to say on Twitter.
26:07There's nothing to [laughter]
26:11build agents. She has boots agents. She
26:13has built agents.
26:14>> NO, BUT BUT what you just said, I said
26:17it word for word, right? And I was like,
26:18this is literally what I believe. We're
26:20at the bottom of the totem pole. We
26:22don't have power.
26:23>> Our focus and I literally used the China
26:25China as an example. I was like, look at
26:27what they did. They said 40 years ago,
26:29this is where we're at. This is where we
26:30want to go. What are we doing to move
26:32that needle? And I literally said to
26:33them, what we as black people should be
26:35asking ourselves, because the example I
26:37gave was, look at how China kepts quiet.
26:39When America gave them the tariffs, he
26:40said, "No problem. Here's our own tariff
26:42back for rare medals. Trump took his
26:44entire seuite there to go and see him
26:47beg.
26:47>> Let's [laughter] just call it WHAT IT
26:48WAS.
26:50>> LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT WAS." And I now
26:51said what we as black people should
26:53really be focused on is finding out what
26:54are our own rare medals that we can
26:56acquire over time accumulate safely plan
26:59for the future and if you need to bow
27:01like they say they call you a this but
27:04no wa I know where I'm going. I know
27:06when we meet you in front we then see
27:08which is which and this is what I said
27:10too. So like I said very on point but I
27:12wanted to transition to the recent
27:14announcement right through AFC. And
27:17honestly, as somebody who's had a lot of
27:18backstory, right, [laughter] there are a
27:20lot of questions I have about this
27:21particular moment.
27:23>> I remember back when we were in America,
27:25you tried to raise from institutional
27:26investors as well.
27:27>> And you were there.
27:28>> I was there [laughter]
27:29and they showed you Shake, right?
27:32>> This process of
27:35getting the investment from AFC for
27:36folks who don't know, a $15 million
27:38investment from the African Finance
27:39Corporation. What was that process like?
27:42just for people who want to understand
27:43the process but also when you look back
27:46at the EN that was trying to raise back
27:49in America now what have you learned
27:51through the process of from that time to
27:53now where you're like do you even think
27:55that in then was as ready for
27:57institutional investment as the EN today
27:59>> no definitely not and one thing I would
28:01say about American I mean look one of
28:03the beautiful things about America is
28:05that
28:05>> it is such a diverse society
28:08>> that you can find your brand
28:10>> everywhere
28:11>> we raised raised. We didn't announce it,
28:13but we raised a $20 million fund in
28:15between
28:17>> that that time and the next time. You
28:20see what I mean?
28:21>> And we're anchored by America, American
28:23Capital. So, America is such a
28:26incredible land of opportunity that you
28:28will find your brand. I have friends
28:30across the spectrum that believe in
28:32different things, that do different
28:33things. And that's the beautiful thing
28:34about America. But you but what I've
28:37realized is that you got to be focused
28:39on your end game,
28:41right? Because the thing about America
28:43is that because there's so much money
28:45doing so many things, they may not be
28:47long-term focused on you. You may just
28:49be the flavor of the moment.
28:51So yeah, I mean at the time the
28:53conversation made sense and the
28:54relationship was there but I would be
28:57foolish to build an inst a multi-fund
29:00institutional relationship on the back
29:02of that those asurances because things
29:05changed now you know there's no more
29:08black lives matter money [laughter]
29:11zip what I'm saying no
29:16save us none of that none of that
29:18>> part of my pain was that we wasted that
29:20opportunity because at that time
29:22>> there was a lot of money coming this way
29:24because there was a lot of other things
29:26that were happening that created that
29:28moment.
29:29>> Anyway, let bygones be bygones.
29:31>> Now for me, I'm building with the long
29:33term in mind and I'm saying to myself,
29:35>> how do we over the next, you know, 10
29:38years, right, get to a trillion dollars
29:41in
29:41>> AUM?
29:43>> My foundation has to be rock solid.
29:46meaning I have to build with somebody
29:48that I know will keep coming back and
29:50keep coming back and keep coming back.
29:51Now I think you can look at AFC. AFC has
29:56grown over the last they started in
29:582008. From 2008 till now with I think a
30:01capital base of less than three billion.
30:03They've grown to 17 billion $20 billion
30:06I think actually now
30:08>> that and that's how long that's what
30:11we're talking we're not even talking 20
30:13years.
30:13>> Yeah. Not yet.
30:14>> Not up to [laughter]
30:15>> so my mindset is like if this
30:17organization has grown like this they
30:18must teach me something.
30:20So for me the conversation was not even
30:22about how much money do you have you
30:24know yeah if I wanted to raise I'll
30:26raise on like DFI terms la to be honest
30:30more benign and less aggressive but for
30:33me I'm saying
30:34>> I'm I'm at the stage in the form where
30:36how do I make this fund the firm how do
30:39I make this the A16Z not not the A6Z of
30:42Africa but side by side when people are
30:45talking about generational VC firms
30:47>> they will call A16Z they will call
30:50local, they will call Sequoia, they will
30:52call, then they will call us and be
30:53like, "Yeah, for Africa, these were the
30:55guys that delivered the outcomes." And
30:57for me, I look at it bat on bat,
31:00>> what have they done that I have not done
31:02>> even with less.
31:03>> Yeah.
31:03>> Right. We're three out of the we've
31:05built three out of the continent's nine
31:06unicorns,
31:07>> right? From our fund. I.e. first check.
31:10Like we literally were the guys who
31:12wrote the first check
31:13>> i.e. and we're on the founding team
31:15either as investors or as team members.
31:17So my view is well if if we focus on
31:20this trajectory we literally have to be
31:22in the position to choose who we make
31:24money for and for me I rather make money
31:26for my African brothers and sisters
31:28>> than because I know that the money will
31:30come back they don't have anywhere they
31:31are going [laughter]
31:32>> if I if I make money for a foreign firm
31:35and the flavor of the month is India
31:37that's where the money will go and
31:38they'll tell me sorry Ian you've done
31:40very well but you know what India is
31:41where it's at China is where it's at you
31:44know you middle east is where it's at
31:46but you see as far as Nigeria is
31:48concerned with EFC, I don't have to
31:50worry about that. And Africa, not just
31:54Nigeria is here. And the partners were
31:57here in Lagos with me.
31:58>> I didn't have to travel. I didn't have
32:00to organize a trip. [clears throat]
32:02[laughter]
32:03>> Visa on arrival.
32:04>> Visa or no visa on arrival. You
32:06understand? And they and the thing is
32:09most of the DFIs just give you mandates.
32:11They don't really help you.
32:12>> Yeah.
32:13>> These guys actually help. Like they will
32:15sit down with you and show you, look,
32:17this thing will not make money for us.
32:18This is how you have to design it so it
32:20makes money for us. I've never seen that
32:22before.
32:23>> Wow.
32:23>> They will say, okay, you need more
32:24money. Okay, let's go. Let's go to CBN
32:26together. Let's go and see the president
32:28together. Which country do you want to
32:30go and see the president in? They have
32:31all these member states. Let's go. So
32:33for me, that's what I'm looking for. I'm
32:35not looking for fees.
32:37[laughter]
32:38>> Yeah. I'm not just looking to raise 100
32:40million and you know I'm now looking for
32:42like who's my partner that can actually
32:44help me build out the value and get this
32:47thing done.
32:48>> A lot of times you guys ask for
32:49introductions to investors. You want to
32:52see our investor deck. You want
32:54introductions to other people. So we
32:56have finally created the room on
32:58Patreon. And in this room it's a
33:01membersonly exclusive place where we
33:04show you the behind the scenes. You get
33:06to connect with other people. We share
33:09our playbooks. We do deep dives into
33:11specific industries. Everything for an
33:14entrepreneur. It is like your total
33:16toolkit in real time.
33:18>> I always like to say this is the room
33:20where the most ambitious people in the
33:22diaspora find each other, right? Like
33:24again, sometimes it feels lonely
33:26building. Sometimes it feels like you're
33:28the only one in your circle who might
33:29understand what you really want to
33:31achieve. In this room, you will not feel
33:33alone. So again, join us on Afropolitan
33:36Patreon, right? patreon.com/afropolitan
33:39podcast. All right, guys. Let's pay some
33:41bills.
33:41>> AJ, I want you to tell people what
33:44you're currently using because, you
33:45know, we always have to get Naira. So,
33:47what app do you like?
33:48>> So, now I use Zob Money. Um, Zob Money,
33:51you could get the highest rates pretty
33:53fast, right? People get your monies
33:55straight. No walla, no the bank has
33:57failed or bank is waiting. Um, and I
34:00really like it. And it's not just
34:01because they're sponsoring the show. I
34:02actually use it, right? So, if you're
34:04somebody who's in the diaspora, you're
34:06looking to send money back home to
34:07places like Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana,
34:10etc., you're able to use Zobo money to
34:13send money back home. And because
34:15they're such lovely people, they've
34:17given us a promo code within for you to
34:19be able to use to send money back home.
34:21>> Download it on your Apple and Google app
34:24today.
34:24>> I mean, but then the question now is
34:26with everything you're seeing, what is
34:28the actual next hundred million exit?
34:31like what what does that look like for
34:33us as Africans?
34:34>> Look, for me it's going hard
34:39against
34:41um what So I I think Okay, let me let me
34:44lay it out.
34:45>> Okay,
34:45>> there are two visions of the world of
34:47AI. There's no question it's going to be
34:48an AI opportunity. Yeah.
34:50>> But there are two visions of the world
34:51of AI. There is generative AI and there
34:54is assistive AI. Generative AI means
34:57machines make stuff. Assistive AI means
35:00machines help human beings make stuff.
35:02>> Yeah.
35:03>> Me
35:04Elon has $75 billion to build generative
35:08AI. Mangoes, I think that's what they're
35:09calling them now. They've got trillions
35:11of dollars to build AI.
35:12>> Thumbs up. All good.
35:15>> Me, my job is to make sure the economics
35:17are so deflationary
35:19>> with human AI that you get better
35:22quality for cheaper using human AI. M
35:27>> and to to basically disrupt Silicon
35:30Valley
35:31with AI, human AI
35:36where 20 years from now any quality
35:39product you see will be made by human
35:41beings working with machines
35:43>> and that was the original vision. If you
35:45actually there's a paper that when I was
35:46working as an inter for Jolansdale he
35:49used to he he used to give us this
35:51reading list and one of the books that
35:53left papers that left an impression on
35:55me was a paper called this was I mean
35:56this was in 2012 a paper called man
36:00machine symbiosis
36:01>> by a guy called Jr Lida and he predicted
36:05AI in from 1970s.
36:08>> Mhm. [laughter]
36:09>> Wow.
36:10>> And I encourage everybody to go and read
36:12that paper. The vision of AI being sold
36:15now [clears throat] is very different
36:18from that vision. So my job is like in
36:21my firm, I'm making everybody read it.
36:25>> Read man machine machines symbiosis cuz
36:27that's where we're going. How do we make
36:30young Africans
36:32humanoids,
36:34>> human beings with robot capabilities?
36:37Because if you've got, you know, 300
36:41million humanoids, there's no amount of
36:44money mango can raise. [laughter]
36:48>> Like literally, everybody who's invested
36:51in generative AI needs to regret it in
36:5320 years if I'm successful.
36:56>> Be like, "Oh [ __ ] we should have just
36:58gone to Africa." And because right now,
37:00I mean, if you think about how this
37:02evolved in the manufacturing space,
37:04right? You know, back in the day,
37:07remember there was a active competition
37:09between the Germans and the Chinese.
37:13>> And the Chinese were like, you know
37:14what, we might not need to get all the
37:18high-end machines, super complicated
37:20moving parts, da da da da da da, do all
37:22the deep research on da da da. Let them
37:25be doing their thing, right? We will be
37:28doing our thing. We [snorts] use our
37:29people with even though they've lost
37:31that vision now which I think is a
37:32mistake but it is what it is right
37:36>> and let us use our people to build
37:39massive industrial scale
37:42>> right and compete with Germany who won
37:45>> China
37:46>> cuz it did it at a lower cost but higher
37:49quality.
37:50>> Yeah.
37:50>> Right. I remember when I say quality
37:53cost is relative to quality.
37:56the inst Europe which was started out
38:00with handcrafts and all that stuff they
38:02turned that to a luxury product
38:05[laughter]
38:05>> and even that too is still China
38:08>> and at the end of the day still
38:10[laughter] those routes to China
38:11>> so me I'm like if we can do the same
38:13thing for knowledge work where from day
38:17one every child in Africa is a humanoid
38:21>> they are half human half robot
38:25you create 300 million of them.
38:29It's like it's basically like the
38:32revenge of slavery.
38:34[laughter]
38:34>> The reparations the real reparations,
38:37right? Because what just happens is that
38:39>> if you're making anything in the world,
38:42you want human input
38:44and you want it done efficiently and
38:46cost effectively. You're not going to
38:48leave it to a machine.
38:50>> No,
38:50>> you're going to want a human being's
38:51touch. And the only humans that know how
38:54to make the best product with machines
38:56are Africans.
38:59>> And why do you think that?
39:01>> Because we have the most people. Look,
39:04>> AI, generative AI is anti-African.
39:06Because think about it, whose labor is
39:08being excluded?
39:09>> Us. It's us. Now they will take our raw
39:11materials with our labor and turn it
39:14into knowledge products without our
39:15labor
39:16>> and then pay us peanuts
39:18>> for the cobalt and for the sand and for
39:20the silicon and for the da da da da
39:23right and then make all the money on the
39:26knowledge products on top. If that
39:28knowledge is handed to Africans over
39:32time we won't need to export anything.
39:33>> We would compound it. [laughter]
39:35>> Yeah. We'll compound it and sell
39:37knowledge products back to them
39:39>> and we'll do it cheaper because the
39:40whole value chain is here.
39:42>> Yeah.
39:42>> You know, but to this point you just
39:44made cuz you're the best person to ask
39:46this question to at the time. Andela's
39:48thesis is obviously train young Africans
39:51and then be able to export their labor
39:53and then for cheaper as well.
39:55>> Now, and I I think I said this on
39:57another podcast, the world doesn't wait
39:59for us to catch up, right? So in a world
40:02now where they're saying, "Look, thank
40:04you for the cheap African labor, but now
40:06we can do AI labor." That's basically
40:08what's happening. What's what's your
40:10thesis now around that? How's that
40:11evolve?
40:12>> Well, look, it's clear we mine the the
40:15the raw materials that are used to make
40:17these GPUs and provide the energy,
40:20right, the batteries and all that.
40:22Is we that train the data scale AI in
40:25Kenya?
40:26>> Kenya. Yeah,
40:27>> we train the data. This AI thing is us.
40:29>> Yeah. Even today when you really talk
40:32about reinforced learning, human
40:34feedback is African talent that's
40:36training this thing.
40:37>> Yeah.
40:38>> Because our data is the cheapest in the
40:40world.
40:41>> Yeah.
40:42>> Do you get what I'm saying? So is you,
40:44it's your labor. The problem is that
40:46they're excluding you from the upside,
40:48>> the value.
40:50>> You understand what I'm saying? So my
40:51view is unless we get the knowledge
40:54first and then we decide we're going to
40:56use the knowledge. And the beautiful
40:58thing about this stuff is that in the
40:59ambition for scale, they've actually
41:02created a diffusion of technology. That
41:05means that we can do both. We can temp
41:09just like China did temporarily service
41:11the world and build our own. [laughter]
41:14>> We can farm for the world and farm for
41:16ourselves. That these dichotoies are are
41:18no longer uh necessary or relevant,
41:21right? You can do both. So the dichotomy
41:24of oh can Andela service the foreign
41:26market and then still build a local
41:28market at home where I mean Italian
41:30nation which is our Andela 2.0 No, we're
41:33not asking ourselves those questions,
41:35right? We're saying we're saying we're
41:37going to do both.
41:38>> We're going to if foreign companies come
41:40and they want talent, we'll give them
41:42we'll learn something from them,
41:44>> but we're also supporting companies at
41:46home to build with the knowledge that we
41:48have,
41:49>> which is what China did.
41:50>> China did.
41:51>> But I think now my next question is so
41:54for someone who's watching this, what do
41:57you think how do you think they can
41:59create wealth creation for themselves?
42:01Cuz some people may hear this and say,
42:02"I don't even know where to begin."
42:04Like, do you think there's going to be
42:05multiple companies like this like you're
42:07saying? Cuz you're saying 300 million.
42:09Is it only you that's going to have the
42:10300 billion or you think it has to be
42:12multiple people that have to
42:13>> That's not my Look, my view is to
42:16empower the individual. Like I said, my
42:18vision is to make sure everybody can
42:20earn. I didn't say you must get a job to
42:22earn it.
42:23>> If you hear, I didn't say you must have
42:25a job that pays you. I said everybody on
42:28the continent should be able to without
42:31a lot of effort earn $10,000 a year.
42:36That's it.
42:39Everybody on the continent should be
42:41able to earn $10,000 a year. That's it.
42:45>> Yeah.
42:45>> When you closed this last race, I think
42:47when they talked to you about it, you
42:49called it a sovereignty moment.
42:51>> Yes.
42:51>> What exactly are we having sovereignty
42:53from? where the sovereignty is is over.
42:59It's actually first of all a mindset
43:02because there's nothing that we're doing
43:03now that we couldn't have done 10 years
43:04ago. That's the honest truth. We just
43:06didn't we hadn't yet elevated to the
43:09level of enlightenment.
43:10>> Yeah.
43:10>> That would have allowed us.
43:12>> We hadn't got into that consciousness.
43:13And now we've tried the Silicon Valley
43:17assisted route and they've they've
43:18clearly rejected the rest of the world,
43:21particularly us as far as I'm concerned.
43:26we don't have any choice but to be
43:28sovereign,
43:29>> right? Um
43:32when the valley left the market because
43:35that's really what happened, right?
43:37>> Uh just for context for our viewers, the
43:39fundraising market basically collapsed
43:41only 7%. Yeah.
43:43>> When the valley left the market, we had
43:45two options. One option was you could
43:48sit down and mourn and look around and
43:50be like ah we can't build an industry
43:52that has been done before because it's
43:54not the first time the valley has come.
43:56>> Yeah.
43:56>> Right. There was a time in the past when
43:58the valley did come. And what we did was
44:01we we we basically said ah you know
44:05they've left so we're just going to do
44:07normal business. Right? This time we're
44:11saying we're not going to wait. We're
44:14going to keep building.
44:16It might be slower. It might be more
44:18painful, but we're going to keep
44:20building value. Eventually, when you see
44:23value, you will come back and we will
44:25engage on our own terms.
44:28>> So, that is the sovereignty moment. The
44:30sovereignty moment is for the first time
44:32we have capital that would allow us to
44:34build on our own terms.
44:37And the conversations we're having are
44:38radical. I mean I'm even for the first
44:41time I'm even so when we raised capital
44:45before we had to do a US Delaware fund.
44:48This time we're having a serious
44:49conversation about should we actually do
44:51this fund in Delaware
44:52>> or should we create our own jurisdiction
44:54to do this fund.
44:55>> Wow.
44:56>> That was not a conversation we could
44:58have had 10 years ago. And it wasn't
45:00because it wasn't possible to have that
45:01conversation 10 years ago. It was
45:03because we just, you know, didn't know
45:07that that was important.
45:10>> Now we do. Because the question is, if
45:12you incorporate a fund in Delaware and a
45:14Chinese company wants to invest, how
45:16would that work?
45:19[laughter]
45:20>> Meanwhile, with the Clarity Act, it's
45:22now possible for you to get US investors
45:24into your fund anywhere else in the
45:26world and give them the transparency
45:27they need. M.
45:30>> So why do you really need to incorporate
45:32in Delaware and pay 30% withholding tax
45:35and be subject to Trump's whim? You
45:38don't need that.
45:41>> But you know the other layer that I
45:43think we were kind of dancing around. So
45:45everyone keeps talking about data data.
45:46We need data centers. Do you also think
45:48Africa is going to be the place where
45:50those data centers are being held?
45:52>> Look, it's a very nuanced conversation.
45:54What is a data center?
45:56>> It's a building. Yep.
45:58>> With energy. That's it. [laughter]
46:03Nobody's as gas rich as Nigeria.
46:07Nobody.
46:10Nobody. Untapped gas reserves.
46:13>> Nobody. The cheapest data centers in the
46:15world will be built here
46:18>> simply because the p the power is just
46:20so plentiful and cheap.
46:22>> Yeah. [laughter]
46:24>> And there isn't that much use, you know.
46:26It's not like a lot of small scale
46:29manufacturing is happening even with
46:30solar. I mean you you have one continent
46:33with all forms of energy. Geothermal,
46:37hydro,
46:39>> um gas.
46:40>> Yeah.
46:41>> Uh solar.
46:43[laughter]
46:44>> We're very resource rich.
46:45>> Petrol if you that's what you want to
46:47use. Diesel. So it's it's almost like a
46:52nonstarter conversation that if we're
46:54talking about energy wars
46:56at the end of the day when all is said
46:58and done
46:59>> Africa will end up winning the energy
47:01war when all is said and done
47:03>> and you're already seeing the cost of
47:06infrastructure for data centers creep up
47:08on these are big players right I'm sure
47:10you're seeing what's happening with
47:11Stargates the energy cost have tripled
47:14they can never be more competitive than
47:17Africa M
47:18>> there's a book um by somebody I really
47:20really admire his name is um he was the
47:22founder of Instadep I think is Karim the
47:26name of the book is Leaprog I I
47:28absolutely
47:30>> because he lays he lays out the case for
47:33how Africa will win in AI infrastructure
47:36eventually
47:37>> interesting specifically on AI
47:39infrastructure
47:39>> specifically AI he just talks about AI
47:41and AI infrastruure put in the link
47:42>> Africa will will win and the reason why
47:44Africa will win is because it's energy
47:46rich it has humans
47:49so he can do assistive AI cheaper
47:53do you understand than anywhere else in
47:54the world because the cost of labor will
47:56be too expensive in other parts of the
47:58world to even use the AI you know when
48:00you're talking about token maxing and
48:02the price of tokens what are you really
48:04paying for those $100 million engineer
48:06somebody must pay for them and you are
48:07the one [laughter]
48:09meanwhile if I train the same quality of
48:11engineer in Nigeria and the guy wants to
48:12earn 30k and he's going to live
48:14comfortably on 30k a year guess what
48:17Guess whose model? Nobody cares about
48:18the latest model.
48:20>> Yeah.
48:22>> They just need something that works for
48:23their business.
48:24>> Yeah.
48:25>> Which is basically what Silicon Valley
48:26is finding out right now. Right. Like
48:28when when the CTO of Uber comes out and
48:30says we just spent 3 months our yearly
48:33budgets on tokens in 3 months. It's like
48:36this is no longer a sustainable form. So
48:38what does this look like? You know,
48:39>> oh it's collapse. This is literally and
48:42Africa has that opportunity now if we
48:44build for the moment. That's the
48:46problem. The problem is we keep asking
48:48ourselves, we keep limiting our
48:51thinking,
48:52>> right? To what happens if we fail? What
48:55happens if we fail? No, we don't need
48:58sovereignty for sovereignty sake. We
49:00need sovereignty to take over the world.
49:02We have the cheapest cost of
49:03infrastructure because we have the
49:04cheapest cost of energy, the cheapest
49:06cost of talent, right?
49:08>> And then data. The only data that has
49:10not really been captured despite the
49:12fact that all the other data was cleaned
49:14here is Africa's [laughter]
49:17>> right. So we have the cheapest data.
49:22>> So you know what are you what like how
49:25are you going to how how are you compete
49:28long term? How will you compete? The
49:29only thing they have is capital but
49:31capital cannot buy everything.
49:32>> Yeah.
49:33>> Yeah.
49:33>> Capital doesn't certainly doesn't buy
49:35you an advantage when it comes to AI.
49:38It's [laughter] true. It doesn't. And I
49:39think everybody's finding that out the
49:41hard way.
49:42>> Yeah, it's true. But I think despite
49:45this, is it that they know it and it's
49:47because we don't know it that that's
49:49what they're taking advantage of or you
49:51feel like eventually
49:52>> I think at the highest levels they must
49:55not acknowledge it
49:57>> because if they acknowledge it then
49:59there's no point of what they're doing.
50:00Why are you going to Mars when you can
50:03get cheaper gas in Nigeria? [laughter]
50:06But they know they can't like can you
50:08imagine Elon Musk saying I'm going to
50:10build Stargates in Africa
50:12>> in Africa. No. Now
50:13>> that one trillion will be like one
50:15million. [laughter]
50:16>> Do you understand what I'm saying? They
50:17won't even be able to raise money on the
50:19market. Certain people who need to
50:21believe certain things will not believe
50:23them. Like I always say that Talent
50:26Nation is a trillion dollar company.
50:28Everybody looks at me like I'm mad but
50:30I'm like we're building a trillion
50:32dollar company. When I talk to my team,
50:34I'm like because what we're doing now,
50:35future is evolving from just investing.
50:38Like I said, we outsourced execution for
50:39a long time and it didn't pay us. Now
50:42we're bringing it back home and we're
50:44building across five areas, right? We're
50:46building across talent. We're building
50:48across infrastructure.
50:50So we're doing all these data center
50:51although we think connectivity is the
50:52first thing first barrier to cross. So
50:54we're really big on connectivity, then
50:56data centers, then energy, right? Even
50:59with data centers for for I mean energy
51:02and compute is really all that a data
51:04center is.
51:05>> Yeah.
51:05>> Plugged in by connectivity.
51:07>> Yeah.
51:07>> So our job is just how do we actually
51:09start producing compute in Nigeria.
51:12[laughter]
51:13That's my view. Then we're we're we're
51:15thinking about assets, productive
51:17assets, laptops,
51:20phones, um cars, right? so that people
51:24can move around buses because it's all
51:26these are the things that make an
51:27economy move.
51:29>> Things that move data, things that move
51:30goods and services, things that move
51:32people,
51:33>> right? Then obviously we're still going
51:35to own our payment rails cuz we have to.
51:38>> Yeah,
51:38>> that's how we capture value. And then
51:40most importantly we have our own special
51:43jurisdiction because this erh royal
51:46niger company inheritance that we
51:48received from these British people you
51:50know they work. [laughter]
51:53>> So we have to invent our own digital
51:55first governance model.
51:57>> Yeah
51:57>> that is actually accommodating of what
51:59we do. So we are building across all
52:01five. And our our view is we're going to
52:03build the marquee companies in each of
52:04these spaces. And we're not building for
52:06exit. We're building to acquire other
52:08companies we invest in. M
52:10>> or that are complimentary to us.
52:12>> This is this is such a powerful insight
52:14because you see it online when like they
52:16say, "Oh, Elon is saying he's going to
52:18build data centers in Mars." And you're
52:20saying, "Okay, cool. Is that because
52:21it's going to be cheaper?" That's the
52:23argument he's
52:23>> doesn't matter. Money has a point of
52:25view. He can't build it in Nigeria.
52:27>> Exactly.
52:28>> He's just telling you [laughter]
52:31a lamb wouldn't lumber if he said he's
52:33coming to build it in a meta.
52:35>> Well, not just that, but you have to
52:36understand he understands the logic.
52:38>> Yeah. of those people, they'll talk
52:39about risk all day long, but
52:43[laughter]
52:43there's no real risk.
52:46There's no real risk. You know, you you
52:49can get cheaper energy here,
52:52you know, and I'm telling you, like we
52:54have so much stranded power in Africa,
52:56it's unreal.
52:57>> Yeah.
52:58>> Hydro power plant everywhere. Literally,
53:00if you go to a hydrop power plant in the
53:01north, they'll be begging you just come
53:03take the land for free.
53:05>> Just bring the compute. M
53:09>> yeah I know in emo where I'm from it's
53:11everywhere we have on tops gas reserves
53:13>> gas reserves everywhere you can ground
53:16>> yeah my village yeah [laughter]
53:19>> like so what are we talking about
53:21>> yeah yeah yeah it's true but I then I
53:23want to switch because I I know a lot of
53:25people in culture watch so where is soft
53:27power playing this because you also said
53:29there's a point of view of that
53:30>> yeah I mean look
53:32the the my view on on what is the number
53:35one thing in data sent us today. Who is
53:38the number one consumer?
53:39>> Social media companies or
53:42>> Netflix?
53:42>> Netflix. Okay. [laughter]
53:45>> Content.
53:46>> Content. Yeah.
53:47>> So, when everybody's asking you know
53:48what's going to be in those data
53:49centers, we make it every day. We just
53:52give it. We just pay other people to
53:55hold it for us.
53:57>> Why can't the world stream all the
53:58content we create from Africa?
54:02>> It will be cheaper to upload. This is
54:03why we said connectivity is so critical
54:06>> so that we can actually get content from
54:08all over.
54:09>> Yeah.
54:10>> And that's just one area.
54:12>> When we broadcast content, you know,
54:14we're not just broadcasting bites. We're
54:17broadcasting our culture, our food, our
54:20belief system, our way of life. And if
54:23you think about it, Africa has inspired
54:25some of the highest grossing content
54:28franchises in the world.
54:31>> Lion King.
54:32>> Yeah. Yeah, they they got a plane,
54:35[laughter] they got merchandise, they
54:37made propopanda.
54:42Yeah,
54:42>> but you know what? We don't own the
54:43infrastructure. The problem is when
54:44people say we don't own the
54:45infrastructure, they're focused on
54:47buying their structures. is not the
54:49person that holds the legal documents of
54:52Lion King that actually owns Lion King
54:54or Shino.
54:55>> It's the person who owns the
54:58infrastructure from which everybody who
55:00needs to watch Lion King must pay.
55:03>> Yeah. [laughter]
55:04>> Do you understand what I'm saying? Who
55:05owns those theaters? Who owns? And then
55:07if you move from theaters to the Bes
55:09version, who who is streaming it?
55:11>> Even the merchandise.
55:12>> Merchandise. The IP. Now the IP starts
55:15to make sense because you actually have
55:16the hard infrastructure to deliver it.
55:18But legal paperwork is not
55:21infrastructure.
55:23>> So what we need to be thinking about is
55:25a more integrated vision of the creative
55:27economy,
55:29>> right? Where we own the hard assets and
55:32the soft assets. It's like hardware and
55:34software. Can you run Microsoft Word on
55:37your brain [laughter]
55:39without the computer? No matter how much
55:40you pay for Microsoft Word, it's useless
55:42to you. True.
55:44>> Do you understand what I'm saying? You
55:45can't run your brain. You need a
55:46computer or a phone at least to type it.
55:49>> Yeah.
55:50>> Africa I feel like creative and that's
55:52why I say the most powerful combination
55:54for Africa is when creative and digital
55:56come together because once that happens
55:59done
56:00>> finished
56:01>> finished game over
56:04>> game over.
56:06>> But unfortunately we've had corruptions
56:08of that idea. You understand what I'm
56:09saying? So the the creative guys are
56:12partnering with you know [laughter]
56:14>> Yeah. the power of the bees.
56:16>> The power of the bees, you know, they're
56:17owned by them. You understand what I'm
56:19saying? Meanwhile, there's an
56:21opportunity, and this is why I think the
56:23and I say it's like a left brain, right
56:25brain kind of issue, right? It pains me
56:29that Africans and African-Americans and
56:34black people all over the world are not
56:35united because they understand
56:37something.
56:39I think that, you know, my view is that
56:43African-Americans have incredible
56:45creative ability. Incredible.
56:47>> Yeah. Top tier.
56:48>> It's almost like they took they took the
56:49most
56:50>> creative people from.
56:52>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
56:53>> You understand what I'm saying? But you
56:54know what? You know who can build?
56:55Aliko.
56:56>> Yeah.
56:57>> Put Al and Jay-Z together.
56:59>> Finished.
57:00>> Leave story now. [laughter]
57:02>> It's true.
57:02>> Leave story.
57:04>> It's true. Those are the kind of
57:05collaborations that everybody would just
57:07be like, you know what? Thanks, guys.
57:11[laughter]
57:12Let's have a conversation because at
57:14this point,
57:16you can't be controlling Super Bowl and
57:18controlling
57:20oil industry. So, we need to figure out
57:22what's what.
57:23>> Yeah, [laughter]
57:24it's true. That's true.
57:25>> And the thing is this thing you're
57:26saying, I would be shocked if Aliko and
57:28JC have been in the same room more than
57:30five times.
57:31>> I don't even think they've ever met. I I
57:33I mean, who knows, right? Maybe that's
57:34why they tell us they have, but I don't
57:36even think they even they think in the
57:38same universe.
57:38>> They don't.
57:39>> Which is kind of painful, right? Because
57:41they should be best friends.
57:43>> Yeah.
57:43>> Yeah. Yeah. Because literally it's like
57:45what
57:46>> I mean at least listed. Now, obviously
57:48there's billionaires are hiding,
57:49>> but listed is like what? Oprah,
57:52>> Jay-Z.
57:56Have they all met, sit down, talked?
57:58>> Yeah.
57:59>> Figured out.
57:59>> And we're not even talking about the
58:00next generation of them. Yeah,
58:03>> we're not talking about the next
58:04generation of
58:05>> D. And Jay, have David and Jay-Z even
58:07met anywhere?
58:08>> No, I think they might have.
58:10>> Yeah, but like when I mean meet I mean
58:14says you're the younger version of me.
58:17>> I'm going to work with you
58:18>> the way Warren Buffett worked with me.
58:20The way you understand what I'm saying?
58:22Like I'm going to work with you because
58:23I need to take everything I've learned
58:25from this guy and empower you.
58:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
58:30To be honest, it's it's one of it's one
58:32of the things I'm hopeful that even the
58:33podcast that we're doing here helps
58:35introduce and and put that spark for
58:37people to really collaborate because
58:38again you like you said it makes no
58:41sense that our most powerful
58:42representatives are in silos. Yeah.
58:44>> Right. And then you have a situation
58:45where and I know this for a fact where
58:48one of the things and we've talked about
58:50this in the past that I've seen a lot of
58:51my African-American brothers and sisters
58:52struggle with is the idea of ownership.
58:54Like pure ownership. not like oh okay
58:56cool they allowed us to have this where
58:57it's like no no the man owns a refinery
58:59like it's a fact like this is not it's
59:02not talking about oh I sh NO
59:05[laughter]
59:06>> you know what I mean
59:08so a lot of economic leverage in the US
59:10for black American people is usually
59:12cultural leverage and I think sometimes
59:13there's a disconnect where I'm like boy
59:16if we merge this your cultural leverage
59:17with the actual hard
59:19>> leverage there are there are
59:21billionaires that are quiet in America
59:23who own stuff I'll tell you for free.
59:26Like
59:26>> many people may never have heard of
59:27David Stewart, my mentor Nicholas
59:30Braweight. These guys own real stuff.
59:32They're billionaires, quiet, they own
59:35proper stuff.
59:37>> But the problem is always, you know,
59:40when like, okay, let's use Aunlesi for
59:43example. He owns stuff.
59:44>> Yeah, he does.
59:46He actually controls airports. But the
59:50problem is that when they when they're
59:52thinking of extending their leverage,
59:54who's on their wavelength,
59:56>> do you understand? And I feel like it's,
59:59you know, the other sides view divide
1:00:02and rule is the way they work, right? So
1:00:04what they do is they drive a wedge. Do
1:00:06you understand? Where they're like, oh,
1:00:08what matters is that creative control,
1:00:10creative leverage, and people don't
1:00:11think end to end about the value chain.
1:00:14>> Yeah.
1:00:15Dangote funded Africa Center in uh New
1:00:19York.
1:00:19>> In New York
1:00:21literally like that thing should have
1:00:24had every African-Americans
1:00:27in that structure.
1:00:29>> Yeah.
1:00:29>> Basically saying this is what we did.
1:00:31Every year we come out to New York and
1:00:33have a big party as the um as as
1:00:37Africans at ANGA.
1:00:39>> Even though the UN is a shell of itself,
1:00:41we still do it with Gabby with all this
1:00:43stuff. How many African-Americans come
1:00:45to that?
1:00:46>> Yeah, they don't.
1:00:46>> Do you understand what I'm saying? When
1:00:48the we the Black Economic Summit um
1:00:51which happens in Mata's Vineyard as
1:00:53well, I know the first time I had to
1:00:55work with Akuna and sponsor and get I
1:00:58don't like being on the camera so I
1:00:59don't show up. But the point is, you
1:01:01know, getting our people to talk.
1:01:04>> Yeah. Connect.
1:01:05>> How many people come here? They always,
1:01:07you know, there's so much I actually
1:01:09find it funny. I receive more
1:01:13Jewish people, more Europeans, white
1:01:16Europeans, more like I receive more of
1:01:19them here in Nigeria than I do Indians,
1:01:22Lebanese than I do African-Americans.
1:01:25>> Yeah.
1:01:26>> When I So, you know what's crazy? I'll
1:01:28never when we were fundraising, if you
1:01:30know how much I was begging for one
1:01:32black American to put their money, like
1:01:34one.
1:01:35>> Yeah. But you know, to be fair to them,
1:01:36the first thing you go to them, it
1:01:38cannot be an ask.
1:01:40Because a view is like, dude, like
1:01:43>> it's true.
1:01:44>> It can't be the first thing. The first
1:01:46thing should be how many
1:01:47African-Americans have been on this
1:01:48show?
1:01:49>> Yeah,
1:01:50>> we've had some. We've had some.
1:01:52>> Like who?
1:01:53>> Marlin. We had Marlin. We have Tena.
1:01:56>> Um, who else?
1:01:57>> But we got we got to get Sorry to
1:01:59problem solve in public.
1:02:00>> Yeah. No, no, no. [laughter]
1:02:02>> But we got to get like who are their
1:02:04icons? Who are the people they look up
1:02:05to that have experienced? I mean, why
1:02:07can't we get I show Speed here?
1:02:08>> Exactly. Well, that's another story.
1:02:11>> But you see what? You know what? You
1:02:12know what happens? I'll tell you what
1:02:13happens. I'll solve the problem for you.
1:02:15They have white representation.
1:02:16>> Yeah.
1:02:17>> Right. And the white representation is
1:02:18going to make sure they never come on
1:02:19this show. [laughter]
1:02:21>> And the argument will be there's no
1:02:23money there.
1:02:23>> Yeah.
1:02:24>> Now, with intention.
1:02:27With intention. If we build an ecosystem
1:02:30with intention
1:02:31>> Mhm.
1:02:32>> both sides can see why it's important
1:02:34that you perform in Africa even if
1:02:35you're not going to make money.
1:02:36>> Yeah.
1:02:37>> They're doing the same thing to our
1:02:38artists now. tell artist or go where
1:02:40there's money. Who makes the money you
1:02:42perform?
1:02:42>> Yeah.
1:02:42>> Who makes it? It's not you. They give
1:02:44you a contract. They own you. Every year
1:02:46Bunny Boy doesn't play. Now I saw him on
1:02:48stage. I'm like, he's even an African
1:02:50artist. I don't know.
1:02:51>> No, but they're also suffering for that
1:02:52right now, too. I mean, it's a vision,
1:02:56right? Like no matter how much and I
1:02:58love the Caribbeans for this, right? You
1:03:00>> Jamaica Rasta must perform in Jamaica.
1:03:03Live [laughter]
1:03:05>> if you if you want to watch, come to
1:03:06Jamaica.
1:03:07>> Yeah. But again, the practical
1:03:09bottlenecks, right? How difficult is it
1:03:11to come to Nigeria?
1:03:12>> Yeah.
1:03:13>> Right. By now, by now, I've said it
1:03:15before on this podcast and you've heard
1:03:17me say that the first, if I ever become
1:03:19by mistake, if they make me president,
1:03:21first action, if you're black, you can
1:03:23enter Nigeria.
1:03:24>> Free.
1:03:24>> Free. Just like they did Ghana. Just
1:03:27allow
1:03:27>> you look at you are black. Just leave
1:03:29it. Just come.
1:03:30>> Stop.
1:03:30>> Don't even bother with anything else. If
1:03:32if you like the illegal, it's okay. You
1:03:34have space. [laughter]
1:03:35>> Yeah.
1:03:36>> We have space. like just calm, just
1:03:38calm.
1:03:39>> Yeah, it's true because what pains me is
1:03:41I was there when the the the Ghana the
1:03:44former president of Ghana was welcoming
1:03:46black Americans and that's their their
1:03:47first thoughts. Their first thought is
1:03:50even now that big
1:03:51>> but it's a good thing we've seen we've
1:03:52seen it but you the problem is really
1:03:54that look Ghana just didn't have scale
1:03:57>> that's all it's worked well for them
1:03:59it's actually helped the economy bounce
1:04:01back
1:04:02>> sooner right so we know that it can work
1:04:04here
1:04:05>> right so for me I'm just saying
1:04:07>> those are the kind of conversations we
1:04:08need to be driving as a people not
1:04:10somebody said something bad about me I
1:04:11mean like at this point you understand
1:04:13what I'm saying even brothers say
1:04:14something bad about somebody else now is
1:04:16every time you say good things about
1:04:17YOUR
1:04:18>> [laughter]
1:04:21>> IT'S TRUE.
1:04:21>> EVEN YOUR WIFE, EVEN YOUR WIFE, even
1:04:24your husband say every time they say
1:04:25every now and then you forgive
1:04:29it and you say he's such an idiot. Leave
1:04:31him no jaw.
1:04:32>> But if our if our partnership cannot go
1:04:35beyond a misunderstanding or the other
1:04:39thing that pains me about South Africa,
1:04:40right? Cuz I'm like, look, South
1:04:42Africa's put me on in business. So
1:04:44that's why I can't even have you ever
1:04:46heard me I can never slander South
1:04:47Africa. It's not possible. You will
1:04:49never hear from my mouth. In fact they
1:04:50can say your mother is a bastard. I'll
1:04:52just keep quiet and I'll just be like ah
1:04:54bro you should have said that too. But I
1:04:56will never slander South Africa because
1:04:58pulong
1:05:00without those guys I won't be in
1:05:03business.
1:05:04>> Yeah.
1:05:04>> Those were the guys that put me on when
1:05:06everybody else was saying no.
1:05:08>> Without MTN all this stuff we're talking
1:05:11about digital economy. Where you for be?
1:05:13>> [laughter]
1:05:15>> It's true. It's true.
1:05:16>> Without DSTV, which star?
1:05:20>> Yeah.
1:05:21>> Let's be true now. Without multi choice,
1:05:22which star now? Which star? Which star?
1:05:24Creative industry. Which star?
1:05:26>> Yeah.
1:05:26>> And a lot of people's first time TV.
1:05:29>> Where did it come from?
1:05:30>> See, whatever we've done for South
1:05:33Africa, South Africa has done a lot for
1:05:35us too. So this thing just
1:05:37misunderstanding. Let's just align.
1:05:39Okay. Come. You were taking the worst of
1:05:41us to South Africa. Please just return
1:05:44them. [laughter]
1:05:46JUST PUT THEM IN JAIL. VERY SIMPLE.
1:05:49Don't kill anybody. Just be deporting
1:05:51them. Just export them. Tell your
1:05:53policeman to stop being corrupt and
1:05:55collecting money from them. You should
1:05:56just say, "You see an illegal Nigerian,
1:05:57send him home." Period. That would have
1:06:00solved the problem. Doesn't need to kill
1:06:02anybody.
1:06:03>> Yeah. Just export them.
1:06:04>> Just send them back to us. We love them.
1:06:06[laughter]
1:06:07>> We know what to do with them. WE KNOW
1:06:09WHAT TO DO WITH THEM.
1:06:11>> Very simple. There's no need to make
1:06:12Nigerians a bad fish. If you see
1:06:14somebody selling drugs in your country,
1:06:16send them home. Don't even debate. Just
1:06:18send them home.
1:06:20>> That's what we should have been saying.
1:06:23>> Violence and killing and all.
1:06:25>> I felt so bad. I mean, I was at the MMA
1:06:26fight and I saw like there was a South
1:06:29African there
1:06:30>> and people were booing. I was like, "Ah,
1:06:32bro." Honestly, we're supposed from
1:06:33Algeria.
1:06:34>> Algeria. [laughter]
1:06:36>> Algeria is inside there. Algeria. Sorry.
1:06:41I'm sorry.
1:06:42>> I don't know, bro. Arabs Arabs make me
1:06:46Arabs Arabs relationship with black
1:06:49Africans is is
1:06:51>> not You need to go to Madagascar to know
1:06:53what I'm talking about.
1:06:53>> No, I know what you mean. BUT BUT THE
1:06:55HISTORY GO FAR. I WENT to Morocco. Me as
1:06:57a black woman, I cannot enter Morocco by
1:06:59myself. You know, you people are very
1:07:01brave cuz let me tell you something
1:07:03here. We every time I get invites from
1:07:05Tunisia, Egypt, I'm like,
1:07:08>> "NO, EGYPT." NO, NO, EGYPT IS
1:07:10INTERESTING. SO, EGYPT is interesting.
1:07:12Cairo is somehow once you leave Cairo is
1:07:16like normal. I don't know how to explain
1:07:17It's like you have to
1:07:18>> I DON'T WANT TO KNOW. [laughter]
1:07:20YOU HAVE TO GET
1:07:20>> NO, THE ONLY way the only way I'm going
1:07:22to some countries e is if they give me
1:07:25like they're like presidential welcome
1:07:27escort roll out the carpet. Like when I
1:07:30go to Dubai or Kata, it's the only way I
1:07:32go. If I'm not being invited by the
1:07:35shake so so, so
1:07:37>> nah, [snorts]
1:07:38>> not doing it. Riyad never. But when I
1:07:41don't go to some countries without royal
1:07:44welcome or without doing [laughter] it
1:07:46not doing it I went to I went to Morocco
1:07:49I had royal welcome I don't do anything
1:07:51without royal welcome
1:07:53>> in some countries I just know that this
1:07:54the only way to protect myself as a
1:07:56black man. Yeah, it's true cuz every
1:07:58time I've gone with gone to Morocco, it
1:08:01was literally the the government they
1:08:02bought me. They they were at the
1:08:05tourist. They escalate. [laughter]
1:08:13>> Yeah. But what I'm more speaking to
1:08:14though just so that we know this is
1:08:16similar to how we said there's a
1:08:17disconnect between African-Americans and
1:08:18us is there's also disconnect between
1:08:20the North Africans and us which is if
1:08:22you go back to independence all these
1:08:25independence movements one of the first
1:08:26start from Algeria. So a lot of the the
1:08:28the freedom fighters for a lot of the
1:08:30black countries they would actually hide
1:08:32and were safe in Algeria. So this is
1:08:34history that has now been dismantled
1:08:36through through time. Even like them
1:08:37Sadat or from uh Egypt these were the
1:08:40first all them Panaffricans and Kuma all
1:08:42of them were all friends back then. So
1:08:44it's one of those things that I feel
1:08:45like we've lost through the signs of
1:08:47times. But
1:08:47>> yeah, but it's become Arab now. It's
1:08:49become
1:08:49>> that's what I'm saying. They didn't know
1:08:52their freedom [laughter] has
1:08:53disappeared. They lost and then they
1:08:56brought all these moolas and you know I
1:08:58will say that we should still we should
1:09:00still hold out some hope is all I'm
1:09:02saying. But I wanted to transition to
1:09:04this part of the conversation e and you
1:09:05already touched on it a little bit. So
1:09:07African fundraising collapsed 87% last
1:09:10year. European LPS pulled back. DFI's
1:09:13retreated
1:09:14when you look at the fundraising
1:09:16landscape, right? What were some of the
1:09:18changes and also how did Future Africa
1:09:20fared during that time as well?
1:09:22>> So, I think, you know, I'm going to be
1:09:23very honest, right? We we tried to
1:09:26invest through the downturn. Um, mostly
1:09:29more out of conviction than anything
1:09:32else. Um, not because the signs were
1:09:35palatable or we liked what we're seeing.
1:09:38I feel like
1:09:40unfortunately, right, um, we we we had a
1:09:46exodus of great founders
1:09:49and as a result,
1:09:52even though we've recorded some
1:09:54fantastic wins, they've not been that v
1:09:57this vintage is not going to be great.
1:09:59>> Yeah.
1:10:00>> You see what I mean? Because you did you
1:10:03you were building amidst a lot of noise,
1:10:06>> right? And I'm actually happy that
1:10:10fundraising fell because it means the
1:10:12market is still rational,
1:10:15right? And I think that's a good thing.
1:10:18Um my view is
1:10:22when I think about f Future Africa
1:10:25strategy during that time, you know, we
1:10:26anchored ourselves around this idea that
1:10:28okay, you know what, we need to invest
1:10:31in founders that are building um um
1:10:35businesses that are trying to expand the
1:10:38digital economy, right? And
1:10:42I think we came to the conclusion
1:10:44ultimately about two things. one you
1:10:48cannot expand
1:10:50faster than the base infrastructure that
1:10:54powers you and I think in the last say
1:10:5710 years we've tried to do something
1:10:59impossible which is we've like I'll say
1:11:03since 20 since 2013 till now total
1:11:07amount of money invested in technology
1:11:10infrastructure right is probably maybe
1:11:13three billion
1:11:14>> right
1:11:14>> it's
1:11:15amount of money invested in venture
1:11:17which is supposed to be on top of that
1:11:19>> is about 15 billion
1:11:23[laughter]
1:11:23>> so no leg day
1:11:27>> so I think we're suffering from that now
1:11:29right because we had all these
1:11:31incredible ambitions for companies but
1:11:32we didn't really go back and look at
1:11:34>> the infrastructure
1:11:35>> based on infrastructure
1:11:35>> how how is this product going to get to
1:11:37the user when they don't have internet
1:11:39and that was because we adopted some of
1:11:41the silly mandates from DFIs oh don't
1:11:44invest in infrastructure I still
1:11:45encounter GPS. I'm like don't invest in
1:11:47infrastructure. Under your nose, Aradel
1:11:51went did venture scale return.
1:11:53[laughter]
1:11:54And you were there sitting down saying
1:11:56you don't want to invest in energy.
1:11:57Somebody that doesn't have power. How
1:11:59would they turn on their phone?
1:12:00[laughter]
1:12:01>> How they want to how will you even cook
1:12:03your food?
1:12:04>> Food that you're going to order when the
1:12:05business doesn't have doesn't have
1:12:08>> power.
1:12:08>> Power [laughter]
1:12:10right when price of food is expensive.
1:12:14how
1:12:16>> you get what I'm saying meanwhile people
1:12:17like Dangote in that period of time
1:12:19built proper things now he's doing
1:12:21venture scale return
1:12:23>> so the concept of venture scale and I'm
1:12:26saying this even to myself we twisted it
1:12:29venture scale is about the returns
1:12:31[laughter] it's not about the thing
1:12:35>> so we should have been more
1:12:36deterministic
1:12:38about what exactly is going to deliver
1:12:40venture scale return as opposed to
1:12:41hoping that if we invest invested in
1:12:45Silicon Valley in 2025
1:12:48and invested in Nigeria the same way as
1:12:50opposed to investing in Silicon Valley
1:12:51in 1972 where even at that time you know
1:12:55venture venture return meant investing
1:12:58in Rockefeller.
1:12:59>> Yeah.
1:13:00>> You know you understand what I'm saying?
1:13:01Venture return meant investing in um in
1:13:04in Apple. Can you imagine somebody
1:13:05coming to you and saying I want to do
1:13:07laptop assembly
1:13:09>> like hardware hardware?
1:13:10>> Do you understand? and you say, "Oh,
1:13:12that sounds like venture capital."
1:13:14Meanwhile, who has done the venture
1:13:16skill return now?
1:13:17>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:18>> So, we needed to take a first principles
1:13:20approach. So, we just like and I think
1:13:22for us, every fund is a come to Jesus
1:13:24moment. And I I'm fine with it because
1:13:26I'm not
1:13:27>> I'm not investing by roots. I'm looking
1:13:29at the market and investing based on
1:13:30what I see.
1:13:31>> Yeah.
1:13:32>> You know, and I would say we've learned
1:13:33a lot in the last six years,
1:13:36>> particularly in the last three about
1:13:37investing in Nigeria. M
1:13:39>> now before you can get me to invest in
1:13:42things that are not tangible, you work
1:13:44harder [laughter]
1:13:45because most of the companies we
1:13:47invested in, what did they use the money
1:13:48to do? They paid themselves a lot of
1:13:49money which they went to pay buy
1:13:52tangible things.
1:13:52>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
1:13:54>> Do you understand what I'm saying? Or
1:13:56they went to Jackbach.
1:13:57>> Yeah.
1:13:58>> Right. Or like we there's no
1:14:01infrastructure that underpins the amount
1:14:03of the volume of capital
1:14:05>> that has gone into the ecosystem. M and
1:14:08you know it's so crazy because now that
1:14:10you're saying this this clicks with my
1:14:12other theory which you know a founder
1:14:14came to us and she was pitching an idea
1:14:15and I said cute does not work in Nigeria
1:14:18we don't need cutes we don't need cute
1:14:20app we don't need the app that does the
1:14:22thing we need the infrastructure there's
1:14:24the the if unless the infrastructure is
1:14:26put in place there's no there's no cutes
1:14:28anything in fact going back to the leap
1:14:30froging thing we need to build
1:14:31infrastructure and the soft power that's
1:14:33it that's it everything else in between
1:14:36is story story.
1:14:38>> I always joke that these days I do flesh
1:14:40and blood and principalities and power.
1:14:42[laughter]
1:14:44>> I don't have any in between.
1:14:45>> Yeah.
1:14:46>> So you're either building infrastructure
1:14:47so that if somebody go runs mad,
1:14:50>> we can just be like thank you very much.
1:14:53>> Yeah.
1:14:53>> Right. Or we're investing in human
1:14:55beings
1:14:56>> that will run the infrastructure and
1:14:57assets.
1:14:58>> Anything else in between
1:15:00>> all these marketplace businesses, God
1:15:02bless you.
1:15:03>> E-commerce, [laughter]
1:15:03>> it's amazing, you know.
1:15:06But you'll be facing cost pressure on
1:15:07both sides.
1:15:08>> Infrastructure will be crushing you one
1:15:10side, talent will be crushing you
1:15:11another side.
1:15:12>> Inside is negative margin. Then you now
1:15:14give it to me and say this is your
1:15:15equity. [laughter]
1:15:16>> I say what is this?
1:15:18>> So e before we started the podcast, you
1:15:20talked about how you know this period of
1:15:22time reminds you of 2014, right? Um
1:15:24[snorts] something I wanted to get your
1:15:26thoughts on and this is going to be
1:15:27helpful for founders who are looking to
1:15:29maybe build a startup and thinking
1:15:30through it now. I came across something
1:15:33that Elon said regarding co-founders and
1:15:36the reason was they just IPOed with
1:15:38SpaceX and I think their co-founders all
1:15:40had like 0.06 06 like% equity and people
1:15:43are like how can a co-founder have that
1:15:45right and I think Elon says this in his
1:15:48biography which is he said that one of
1:15:49the co-founders of SpaceX literally
1:15:51asked for 2 years of salary in escrow
1:15:55>> to stats
1:15:56>> and so he now said you cannot ask for
1:15:58two years of salary in escrow and
1:15:59consider yourself a co-founder there's
1:16:01got to be some combination of
1:16:02inspiration perspiration and risk the
1:16:05reason why I want to bring this to you
1:16:06is obviously you have advice regarding
1:16:09co-founders right What is your
1:16:11philosophy and thesis when it comes for
1:16:13founders who are watching in how to
1:16:15evaluate fellow co-founders whether it's
1:16:17through skin in the game how they think
1:16:19through all of that as well
1:16:20>> so you know my building building alone
1:16:24is almost impossible
1:16:26>> so you even Elon needs co-founders
1:16:28[laughter]
1:16:29>> right that's about as you know factual
1:16:33as it gets
1:16:34>> but but the challenge attributing value
1:16:37is actually even though It's art. It's
1:16:40also science. And one of the things I've
1:16:42learned the hard way is that when you
1:16:44wrongly attribute value, you think
1:16:46you're being generous, but what you're
1:16:48doing is grounding the wrong incentives
1:16:50into your firm's DNA
1:16:53>> and making it unclear where
1:16:55responsibility lies. And what I admire
1:16:58about Elon's approach to this is that
1:17:01he's not missing words about where
1:17:03responsibility lies. If something is
1:17:06broken, me as the founder will fix it.
1:17:12[laughter]
1:17:13>> It's not just a title. It is a
1:17:15responsibility.
1:17:16>> The box stops with me.
1:17:17>> Box stops with me.
1:17:19>> For me, the way giving a co-founder
1:17:21title is easy.
1:17:22>> Yeah.
1:17:22>> For me, it doesn't bother me. But I've
1:17:25become more pensive and I like to now
1:17:28call out in a more mature way than I
1:17:31used to before where responsibility
1:17:33lies.
1:17:36Sometimes I would work with founders to
1:17:38build their businesses and I think at
1:17:40some point they got the idea that
1:17:44I was the founder [laughter]
1:17:46>> and they were working for me
1:17:48>> but they had more equity than me.
1:17:50>> Do you understand what I'm saying?
1:17:51Because what you believe is what you do,
1:17:53right?
1:17:54>> So they'll say, "Oh, the company's
1:17:55running out of money." And I'm like,
1:17:56"Yeah, company's [laughter] running out
1:17:58of money.
1:17:59>> How far?"
1:18:00>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:18:01>> That's your That's your job. My job is
1:18:03to give you the first check
1:18:05>> and if I push and you did not push
1:18:08it down and lick your wounds. Not my
1:18:10problem.
1:18:11>> Yeah.
1:18:11>> And they'll be so shocked and say you're
1:18:13supposed to support me all the way to
1:18:15I'm [laughter]
1:18:18>> this is your
1:18:18>> that's not the mandate.
1:18:19>> That's not the mandate. You see what I
1:18:22mean? But my my view is just be clear to
1:18:26everybody about where responsibility is.
1:18:29Just be clear. Now does that mean that
1:18:32because I think there are three
1:18:33different dimensions of the co-founder
1:18:34equation. There's where responsibility
1:18:36is.
1:18:37>> Yeah.
1:18:37>> It's a separate conversation from roles
1:18:39and who is best attuned to a role.
1:18:43>> Right. And then there's a separate
1:18:44conversation about the title.
1:18:47>> In my view at least, right? The title is
1:18:50an easier conversation to have because
1:18:53it's okay co-founder. Fine. You you
1:18:56founded with me, take your title. You
1:19:00understand the role means even if
1:19:03somebody is not necessarily going to the
1:19:07person needs to just be rewarded for the
1:19:08value they're contributing.
1:19:11>> Do you see what I mean?
1:19:12>> It's not even a question of risk alone.
1:19:15It's a question of also where are they
1:19:17adding real value
1:19:19>> right? So if somebody says oh I'm not
1:19:20taking salary for two years but they
1:19:22can't bring customers. How does that
1:19:24concern me? M
1:19:25>> it sounds wicked, but it's the fact
1:19:28who's bringing in the money.
1:19:31>> And I've had to have tough conversations
1:19:32with co-founders who are like, "Oh, I
1:19:34thought my job was just to do the work."
1:19:36I'm like, "Yeah, but the work is
1:19:38bringing in money."
1:19:40>> Yeah.
1:19:41>> Period. [laughter]
1:19:41>> Period.
1:19:42>> Sales.
1:19:43>> Sales.
1:19:44>> Yeah.
1:19:45>> So, if Elon is going to go raise money,
1:19:47>> Yeah.
1:19:47>> so you can do your work, guess what? You
1:19:50guys give him his due. [laughter]
1:19:53>> He put the first 100 million in. Do you
1:19:55understand?
1:19:56>> And you didn't instead you said you need
1:19:59your two years which is why I always say
1:20:01rather than go and invest in in mosque
1:20:04where you be mo where you putting your
1:20:07money
1:20:08>> do you understand what I'm saying? So
1:20:10someone has risk their capital to do
1:20:12stuff
1:20:13>> you have to give it to them right so the
1:20:15role has to be up. So what I even do in
1:20:17my own view is I separate the financial
1:20:19cons consideration from sweat because
1:20:22without the sweat.
1:20:25>> Yeah.
1:20:25>> Do you understand? Then you now talk
1:20:28about responsibility.
1:20:30Even if you're paying money, even if
1:20:33you're doing the work, responsibility
1:20:35wise, are you does the buck really stop
1:20:37at your desk?
1:20:40Do you understand? If something goes
1:20:42wrong, who's absorbing loss? If you're
1:20:45not absorbing loss, I'm sorry. Oh, but
1:20:48you cannot be taking more than somebody
1:20:52who is going to chop the cane when
1:20:54something goes wrong and things will go
1:20:56wrong.
1:20:58>> So, it's it's made me at first it was an
1:21:02uncomfortable conversation for me to
1:21:03have with people to say, "Guy, let's
1:21:06dimension this thing properly. You're
1:21:08asking for this and this. They don't go
1:21:09together.
1:21:11>> It's like wine pairings. You can't ask
1:21:13for some things and some things. So if
1:21:15you're saying you want two years of
1:21:16salary, you're not bringing any money,
1:21:18right? And [laughter]
1:21:21you want
1:21:22>> 40%
1:21:22>> 40% of equity. Who's your slave?
1:21:27[laughter]
1:21:27>> You understand what I'm saying? Or you
1:21:28want equal with me, it can't work. So
1:21:30you know what? Let's dimension the three
1:21:32things. Me, I'm bringing my money. I
1:21:34must take my fair share for that.
1:21:37Separate. I'm going to sit down and if
1:21:40anything goes wrong and my fault,
1:21:42>> I have to take a separate cut for that.
1:21:45>> Then I'm going to bring in business. I
1:21:47have to take a separate cut for that. If
1:21:50that does not work for you,
1:21:52>> good.
1:21:52>> There's no alignment
1:21:54>> because at the end of the day, you will
1:21:55meet it in front.
1:21:56>> When you're doing all the work
1:21:58>> and somebody else is chopping all the
1:22:00money, you're going to be like alignment
1:22:03align problem alignment or you'll be
1:22:05building resentment in your in your
1:22:06heart. Yeah,
1:22:07>> that's why you not be able to greet the
1:22:09person good morning body. [laughter]
1:22:12>> So, you've paid full price for
1:22:14everything. You know, some people have
1:22:15tried to erase you. You've been
1:22:17sometimes pushed out, sacrificed. What's
1:22:20[snorts] the most expensive lesson on
1:22:22that list that someone climbing right
1:22:23now
1:22:24>> can have for free?
1:22:26>> Huh? Man,
1:22:29honestly,
1:22:30trust God. I I hate to bring it back
1:22:34down to that thing, but you just have
1:22:37to. It is expensive not to trust God
1:22:40>> because a lot of what I've tried to do
1:22:44that I'm even doing now is this not the
1:22:46first time. You have to consider that
1:22:48everything somebody has tried to do,
1:22:51they could have been doing it earlier,
1:22:52but they just hadn't gotten to the point
1:22:54of like Rema. When I say Rama, I mean
1:22:56like they they feel it in their bones
1:22:58that this is what they should be doing.
1:23:01Um, and they've counted the cost, the
1:23:04risk, and they've said, "Look, I'm
1:23:06going."
1:23:08I feel like a lot of the time for me
1:23:12that I've wasted and uh I'm okay with
1:23:16it. I consider it part of my experience.
1:23:17I don't regret anything.
1:23:19Came from needless fear
1:23:23>> because at the end of the day, I did the
1:23:25things that I thought I couldn't do and
1:23:27nothing happened.
1:23:30>> [laughter]
1:23:32>> So just trust God. Honestly, that's the
1:23:34biggest biggest lesson.
1:23:38>> But what would you say that? Cuz the
1:23:40other day I was reflecting cuz I we had
1:23:41Baris Ker on and I was reflecting that
1:23:44one of the reasons I enjoy doing this
1:23:46podcast. It's not just talking about how
1:23:47to be successful. It's now getting to
1:23:49the other side of it, which is when you
1:23:52are successful, what does success cost
1:23:54you, right? So what advice would you
1:23:56have? Because the reason for that, you
1:23:58remember I like reading Naval's book and
1:23:59at the end of the thing he says when you
1:24:02have finally built wealth, you realize
1:24:04that that wasn't what you were chasing
1:24:05in the first place. But that's a story
1:24:06for another day.
1:24:08>> This question is centered on that. Like
1:24:10what when you eventually got the things
1:24:12you wanted, what did it actually then
1:24:14cost you?
1:24:15Well, I mean the the
1:24:19I hate to go spiritual, but the truth of
1:24:22the matter is
1:24:24you you only think it cost you
1:24:26something, right? If you don't realize
1:24:31that all of that was God's way of
1:24:36basically the price had already been
1:24:38paid. You just paid extra. It's like you
1:24:41went to a restaurant, somebody paid the
1:24:44meal. Do you understand what I'm saying?
1:24:46You just decided that you're going to
1:24:48tip a lot. At least that's how the
1:24:50restaurant will accept it.
1:24:52>> And you tipped more than the meal cost.
1:24:54[laughter]
1:24:56>> So, did it really cost you or did you
1:24:58just go and do as she do? [laughter]
1:25:01>> True.
1:25:02>> Do you understand what I'm saying? So, I
1:25:03don't know that this journey has cost me
1:25:05anything. I do think that there has been
1:25:07a lot of unnecessary
1:25:09sacrifice,
1:25:12right? Just because there were things I
1:25:14thought I needed that I ended up
1:25:17realizing were just extras.
1:25:20>> Like what type of things?
1:25:22>> Look, I'll give you a practical example.
1:25:25>> I'm the biggest proponent of saying you
1:25:28need co-founders.
1:25:29I don't have one. Well, at least my
1:25:32co-founder is my wife. [laughter]
1:25:36Now, does that mean that you don't need
1:25:38co-founders? No. But I need a different
1:25:41kind of co-founder, if you know what I
1:25:43mean, [laughter]
1:25:44>> right? And that was not just my wife. I
1:25:47needed God to work with me on some of
1:25:50these things cuz they were too big for
1:25:52other human beings to understand.
1:25:55>> So,
1:25:57the courage to go it alone on things was
1:26:00something I always had,
1:26:01>> but I never took it far enough. I wasn't
1:26:04extremist about
1:26:07>> you understand this is where I'm going
1:26:09let me go it alone all these other
1:26:11things and then you know what God in his
1:26:13mercy will give me a a be like ah
1:26:17>> you know what yeah you know you can have
1:26:19this co-founder you can have that
1:26:20co-founder but now I'm building the same
1:26:22things and I'm not doing it with anybody
1:26:24>> does that mean I don't have partners
1:26:26does that mean I don't have co-founders
1:26:27maybe but I'm taking responsibility for
1:26:31delivery of these things Yeah.
1:26:33>> Do you understand what I'm trying to
1:26:34say? It's a very different thing, right?
1:26:38Some people would say it as, oh, you can
1:26:40only trust yourself or you can only
1:26:41depend on yourself. But I'm telling you,
1:26:43that's why I said that my my biggest
1:26:44lesson has been trust God. Some of the
1:26:47biggest things I've accomplished that I
1:26:49thought I would need investors to
1:26:50accomplish that I I thought I would need
1:26:51other people to accomplish. I've done it
1:26:53better, cheaper, faster by just trusting
1:26:56God
1:26:57>> than by working with people.
1:26:59>> Don't trust human beings. [laughter]
1:27:01If if I want to be more explicit, even
1:27:04when I'm working with a founder, I'm
1:27:05always building fail saves because
1:27:07people change.
1:27:08>> Yeah.
1:27:08>> People are so unreliable.
1:27:11>> God is not.
1:27:14>> That's sorry to go to church on you
1:27:16guys, but that's I'm telling you that it
1:27:18sounds like such a simple concept, but I
1:27:21can bet you um 10 years from now that
1:27:24will still be my answer. And I can point
1:27:27to very specific things. People try to
1:27:30do a lot of things in their own flesh
1:27:32and they will run into problems. They
1:27:34must run into problems because they're
1:27:36relying on very unreliable human beings.
1:27:40>> So I want to take this another step
1:27:42though cuz you talked about, you know,
1:27:45this next stage in your life and what
1:27:47you're building. But what do you say for
1:27:49those who say Africa is too poor for
1:27:53consumers? Are we supposed to be
1:27:55building for outside? Because
1:27:57technically part of what you're building
1:27:59is for outside. So is should we all be
1:28:01building for outside or
1:28:02>> here's my view right look.
1:28:06>> Okay. You're building for outside. You
1:28:08get paid.
1:28:09>> Then what do you spend it on?
1:28:10>> Inside.
1:28:10>> Inside.
1:28:11>> Is it inside or is it outside?
1:28:13>> Think about it. How many things in your
1:28:15house are not imported?
1:28:17>> No. This we we built this. We could I
1:28:20could say that
1:28:20>> you No, you you built the furniture. DID
1:28:23THE CUTTING COMPANY? [laughter]
1:28:27DID THE MIC COME FROM THERE?
1:28:30>> No be important. Talk true. [laughter]
1:28:34>> My point is look, you're going to need
1:28:38some things to come from outside. You're
1:28:39going to need some things come from to
1:28:41be built inside.
1:28:42>> That's just the reality. Like it's a
1:28:44it's a I used to argue like this, but
1:28:46I've realized it's a silly argument,
1:28:48right?
1:28:49>> At the end of the day, the price of
1:28:51petrol [laughter]
1:28:53is a function of crude. Abby, you import
1:28:56the crude and you refine the petrol and
1:28:58your price comes down.
1:29:00>> That's life. [laughter] That's just
1:29:02life. Some things will come from it's
1:29:04trade. Some things come from outside,
1:29:05some things come from inside. You try
1:29:07your best to make sure that as much as
1:29:08possible, the things that are inside are
1:29:11cheap because they are from you.
1:29:12>> Yeah.
1:29:13>> You understand? But that doesn't mean
1:29:14that you ignore outside.
1:29:16So when people try to make it seem like
1:29:18it's an all or nothing proposition, I'm
1:29:19like, ah, no. Now it's not life is not
1:29:22that hard. It actually is both. You
1:29:24understand what I'm saying? It's like,
1:29:26yeah, the culture comes from you, but
1:29:29right now, at least right now, you don't
1:29:31produce chips. So, what will you do? You
1:29:33import your chips,
1:29:35right? Put them in your data center. The
1:29:37sand that build the data center is all
1:29:39local. [laughter]
1:29:41>> Do you understand what I'm saying? But
1:29:42maybe the turbine that powers it is not.
1:29:45>> Yeah.
1:29:45>> So, just do what makes sense.
1:29:47>> I want to talk about accelerate Africa
1:29:49before we transition to a rapid fire
1:29:51segment. Obviously you went through YC
1:29:54you understand how on Y cominator works
1:29:56as an accelerator from an accelerate
1:29:59Africa's perspective what have been some
1:30:00of the highs what have been some of the
1:30:01lows and and I guess the question I
1:30:04wanted to ask how do you still find love
1:30:06for this process cuz you've been doing
1:30:08it you've been doing this since 2014
1:30:102013 so it's 10 plus years in how do you
1:30:13still like I watched um on YouTube the
1:30:15last uh demo day
1:30:16>> and I was just like how does E still
1:30:18find love for this because a lot of
1:30:20other founders this thing has burnt them
1:30:22out. They've been disillusioned and some
1:30:23of them have left, right? So, how do you
1:30:25still find love for this?
1:30:27>> Look, man, I like you need to always
1:30:29come back to your why.
1:30:31>> If you're doing this thing without a why
1:30:33or with the wrong why, you will be burnt
1:30:36out.
1:30:37>> You need to find your why and stick to
1:30:39it. Like for me, I've I found my why. I
1:30:44tried to change it and I kept getting
1:30:46reminded that
1:30:48before you were born this now waiting
1:30:51you supposed do [laughter]
1:30:54you understand what I'm saying so it's
1:30:57pointless for me to try to do anything
1:30:59how are you still in Nigeria how can I
1:31:00stand anywhere outside of Nigeria I
1:31:03can't even stand it if I do more than
1:31:05one month outside Nigeria I become sick
1:31:07[laughter] visibly
1:31:09visibly I can't do more than one month
1:31:11outside Nigeria I can't do it I've tried
1:31:13You can ask my wife. [laughter]
1:31:15Tried America. Tried. It didn't work. So
1:31:19now I know my destiny and this country
1:31:21are in.
1:31:22>> So I've just stopped. If you notice, I
1:31:24don't I don't try again. I
1:31:27[laughter]
1:31:27>> together. Yeah. So I think a lot of
1:31:32people need to find peace in their
1:31:33purpose
1:31:35and just come to a place of rest where
1:31:36they're like, "This is what I do." And
1:31:40then it's there. You now get better at
1:31:42it. And for me, so long as I'm getting
1:31:45better and better and better, what is
1:31:47there not to love, [laughter]
1:31:50right? What else will you love? That's
1:31:51the thing. Who else will you love? Who
1:31:52will you love? Nothing. You understand
1:31:54what I'm saying? You can't
1:31:56>> I can't do anything else but create
1:31:58value by building companies that change
1:32:00the world.
1:32:01>> I can't do anything else. I'm useless. I
1:32:03can't come and do podcasts. [laughter]
1:32:06>> I can't build refinery.
1:32:08So, I've accepted my fit
1:32:11>> and I'm at peace with it.
1:32:12>> Yeah.
1:32:13>> That is now where you find love, right?
1:32:15Because as the world is changing, you're
1:32:18like, "What does that mean for us?" And
1:32:20then you're willing to make big bold
1:32:21bets. But one of the things that I find
1:32:25a lot of our colleagues may not yet
1:32:27figure out is that where they're
1:32:29standing on shifting sand,
1:32:32right? You're one Donald Trump edict
1:32:35away from being evicted from the US.
1:32:38Just one. Like one day he wakes up. And
1:32:40I what I don't understand is how someone
1:32:42can wake up in that environment and be
1:32:44productive. Like they are heroes.
1:32:46Honestly,
1:32:47>> I just can't I I can't live in a society
1:32:50where I'm so displaced. [laughter]
1:32:54You understand what I'm saying? And I
1:32:56don't even know eh
1:32:57>> no belonging,
1:32:58>> no control, no belonging, no nothing.
1:33:02No, no foundation, nothing. I rather be
1:33:05in Nigeria. [snorts]
1:33:07Do you understand? Where I know that,
1:33:08okay, worst comes to worst. I'll just go
1:33:11to my house and drink Gary.
1:33:12>> There's rice at home.
1:33:13>> There's always rice and Gary at home.
1:33:16So, and and I and I say this because I
1:33:19feel like there's a lot of our founders
1:33:20that need to hear that or you're in
1:33:24Babylon, just come back home. Leave
1:33:26these people with their wajala.
1:33:29[laughter]
1:33:30just come home and build. Whatever is
1:33:32wrong with this place, we have the power
1:33:34to fix it.
1:33:36And I think that's the trick that uh a
1:33:39lot of people have fallen for this
1:33:42belief that it's easier for them to
1:33:44drive in an ecosystem they didn't create
1:33:47and have no part in than it is for them
1:33:50to build their own.
1:33:52>> Yeah.
1:33:53>> And it's a it's a lie. It's just a lie.
1:33:56There's no need to debate it. The
1:33:59reality of the matter is that where Sam
1:34:01Alman, who is your mate, where Elon
1:34:04Musk, who is your mate, where all these
1:34:06other guys are your mates, can go, they
1:34:08will never let you in, even if you were
1:34:10the most qualified person to be there.
1:34:12>> It's a fact. [snorts]
1:34:15>> Why do you think it takes so long for
1:34:17them to realize this? And do you think
1:34:18it's a function of your privilege, too,
1:34:20in the sense of you've been to that
1:34:22mountaintop? you you were there in those
1:34:25rooms where I'm the most qualified black
1:34:27person here and then they're like or not
1:34:29even qualified qualified period not even
1:34:31just qualified black person and they
1:34:32still still didn't let you into the
1:34:34rooms. Do you think it's a function of
1:34:36when you're coming down that mountain
1:34:37and you're telling them, "Oh god, they
1:34:38know they do that thing for Dale."
1:34:40People will be like, "Yo, let me go
1:34:42there and see for myself." Like what is
1:34:43the disconnect here? Cuz sometimes I
1:34:45think about it cuz obviously we're
1:34:47living in Lagos now.
1:34:48>> I came from You met me in San Francisco.
1:34:50[laughter]
1:34:52>> Lagos. And so sometimes when I see
1:34:55founders going, I'm like, is it that
1:34:57maybe they want to go and test taste the
1:34:59honey first and then they will see that
1:35:00it's bitter? Because I'm saying to them
1:35:02that this thing you think you're going
1:35:04there for, I'm somebody who carried this
1:35:05thing on my head. I am in Lagos now. So
1:35:08what is the disconnect?
1:35:09>> I personally feel the experience is
1:35:10useful.
1:35:11>> Yeah.
1:35:11>> Yeah.
1:35:12>> Right. Like just go there
1:35:14>> and and and
1:35:15>> and see
1:35:15>> and see. Right. So that it's not that
1:35:17somebody's telling you, you know.
1:35:19>> Yeah.
1:35:19>> What
1:35:21I think the part where a lot of people
1:35:23need a lot more
1:35:25>> um a lot more how do I put it? education
1:35:29is this is this belief that they don't
1:35:32have any other option.
1:35:34>> Oh boy. The day I left America right in
1:35:37July 4th, 2013.
1:35:40I'll never forget I booked my ticket and
1:35:44I left and I arrived in Nigeria.
1:35:47>> Oneway ticket. [laughter]
1:35:49>> Do you understand? Like it's really that
1:35:51simple. All these gymnastics, all these
1:35:53other things is not necessary.
1:35:57It really is not. I want to get H1B. I
1:36:00want to get this. I want to get that.
1:36:01They said there's no H1B. Come home.
1:36:05Start building.
1:36:06There's nothing that they have here
1:36:08there
1:36:09>> that we don't have here.
1:36:09>> That we don't have here.
1:36:10>> It's true.
1:36:11>> Nothing.
1:36:12>> It's true.
1:36:12>> Nothing. We even import the rest.
1:36:15[laughter]
1:36:15>> What we don't have, we
1:36:17>> will bring it. But my point is like the
1:36:19the whole idea that you cannot strive
1:36:22outside of a particular ecosystem is the
1:36:26like you really and it's only black
1:36:29people that believe that.
1:36:29>> Yeah. It's self-limiting.
1:36:31>> There's nobody I'm telling you. White
1:36:33guy moves with boldness to Nairobi
1:36:36believing he should dominate.
1:36:37>> Yeah.
1:36:38>> The guy has no doubt in his mind.
1:36:41[laughter]
1:36:42>> Even what moved here? Even though even
1:36:43though he doesn't know anybody there too
1:36:46are my brother he's [laughter]
1:36:48AUBREY IS MY FRIEND AUBREY
1:36:49>> I'm always unnerved you know I'm telling
1:36:52you the day he first met me so somebody
1:36:54introduced us and said hey Aubrey is
1:36:56coming to Nigeria I was like
1:36:58>> how old is he again seven he said I
1:37:01should help him do something I was like
1:37:04are you sure I'm even allowed because
1:37:05like I need parental consent
1:37:09>> but that's the boldness with which these
1:37:11people move.
1:37:13>> We need to learn that
1:37:14>> audacity.
1:37:15>> The fact that you with a Nigerian
1:37:17passport think you need permission to
1:37:18succeed in Nigeria is a problem.
1:37:20>> Yeah.
1:37:21>> For you,
1:37:22>> for your mind,
1:37:24>> do you understand what I'm saying? So,
1:37:26with all your degrees, with everything
1:37:28you've learned, with everything you've
1:37:29accomplished, is Nigeria that will now
1:37:32conquer you. [laughter]
1:37:35Nigeria. Nigeria is not even a
1:37:37sophisticated place like that.
1:37:39>> It's very straightforward.
1:37:40>> Your three calls from the president. I
1:37:41have this theory. Should we test?
1:37:43>> It's true.
1:37:44>> Do you know your governor?
1:37:45>> Yes. [laughter]
1:37:46>> One.
1:37:47>> Do you know your governor?
1:37:48>> Yes.
1:37:49>> Two. I met my governor four times.
1:37:51>> Yeah. I my governor, he dropped me to
1:37:53emo. He brought me there.
1:37:55>> So,
1:37:56>> one call from the president.
1:37:58>> Yeah.
1:37:58>> I'm not saying that every that this is
1:38:00the case for everybody. But if you
1:38:02abroad, your one your three at most
1:38:05three phone calls from the president of
1:38:07Nigeria if you really need
1:38:09>> to speak to him about something.
1:38:11>> Yeah.
1:38:12>> And then there are people like me that
1:38:13will help you for free. I'm not I'm not
1:38:15come but just come ready to serve.
1:38:17That's all I ask. Don't come
1:38:19>> with entitlement thinking we're all dumb
1:38:21here. You know, we've never not seen
1:38:23anything before. Just come ready to
1:38:25serve. Learn the ropes. understand how
1:38:27this place works cuz it's not America
1:38:28and you will never be.
1:38:30>> If you want America, stay where you are.
1:38:32[laughter] You understand?
1:38:33>> But there's nothing you cannot do from
1:38:36here.
1:38:36>> Yeah.
1:38:37>> And just to add to that point you made
1:38:38cuz just want to close cuz I said this
1:38:40in the last podcast we did
1:38:42>> the H-1B you not being able to get at
1:38:44the time then yesterday they came and
1:38:46gave you 01, right? And I think the the
1:38:48what I'm trying to say and I'm trying to
1:38:50say this to the founders is when you
1:38:51build and you deliver value, they will
1:38:53come and give you they'll give
1:38:55[clears throat] it to you. Look, I'll
1:38:55tell you something. I have a 5year US
1:38:57visa.
1:38:58>> Do you know I got it? They called and I
1:39:00know I'm not the only one that has had
1:39:01that experience.
1:39:02>> I just submitted my passport. I think
1:39:04they actually they did some I did some
1:39:06interview but like they literally just
1:39:08called and literally next day they're
1:39:09like, "Hey, your passport is ready. Come
1:39:11and collect."
1:39:13>> They do it. It happens.
1:39:15>> I've gotten Shenen visa in 24 hours.
1:39:17Even me, I didn't believe it. [laughter]
1:39:20So if you build here, you will attain
1:39:23the level of significance and value.
1:39:25>> Yeah,
1:39:26>> that means you're more valuable than a
1:39:28H-1B paper or some immigration stuff. So
1:39:30just come home. And I'm telling you
1:39:32something I want to even say, I don't
1:39:34know when this will be aired, but I'm
1:39:36telling you anybody that doesn't come
1:39:38home within the next two years, I I said
1:39:40this was this 2014.
1:39:43Second term, there's a pattern in
1:39:45Nigeria. Second term presidencies are
1:39:47always extremely prosperous.
1:39:49because the fumbling around in the dark
1:39:51to figure things out is figured out.
1:39:53There are some things they know will
1:39:55work, some things they know will not
1:39:56work.
1:39:58Secondterm president, if this president
1:40:00comes back again,
1:40:02trust me, the economic boom, and you
1:40:04know why I know it's true, it happened
1:40:06even in Bhari's time. If Bhari,
1:40:10we had one of the biggest booms in the
1:40:11tech industry during Bhari's Bhari and
1:40:16[laughter] time.
1:40:16>> Yeah, it's true.
1:40:18If if that could happen in time, how
1:40:22much more?
1:40:23>> Yeah.
1:40:24>> And and Dangote Refinery has put us on
1:40:26the map in a way that even I can't
1:40:29believe like every day I get another
1:40:31introduction. Another intro, another
1:40:33introduction. Somebody's coming to
1:40:34Nigeria. Can you help this person? Now I
1:40:36have to even be like, stop answering
1:40:37because I'm like, I'm only one man,
1:40:39please.
1:40:41He has put us on the map in ways you
1:40:43cannot imagine. If you're a young
1:40:45person, there are people rushing into
1:40:47this country. There was one time I was
1:40:49coming on a flight and I think the line
1:40:51for visitors was longer than the
1:40:53Nigerian
1:40:55>> line,
1:40:55>> citizen line.
1:40:57>> Wow.
1:40:58>> So there are people that are seeing
1:40:59opportunity and coming to Nigeria. You
1:41:03you are you are there fighting Donald
1:41:05Trump. Good luck. [laughter]
1:41:07>> And you know what I always say? I tell
1:41:08people this now because I and I saw this
1:41:10over 10 years ago when I moved back.
1:41:13your people that your friends, the
1:41:15people you met, they'll become governor
1:41:17and they won't be able to answer your
1:41:18call.
1:41:19>> Oh, Sasha. [laughter]
1:41:20>> NO, YOU WON'T. YOU WILL. YOU WILL. BUT
1:41:23THERE'S OTHERS. There's others that
1:41:26you'll say, but you left America.
1:41:28>> She's telling you now AHEAD OF TIME. I
1:41:30WANT [laughter] YOU to become
1:41:33Don't call me DON'T
1:41:38come home [laughter] now. double as we
1:41:42together. [laughter]
1:41:46Oh, and is it here? Let's let's
1:41:50>> tell you guys telling you when she
1:41:51becomes governor of state. [laughter]
1:41:53Don't call her phone. I like that you're
1:41:56being transparent about it so that
1:41:57nobody can tell you we're not warned.
1:41:59[laughter]
1:42:00But don't worry, I'll answer your call.
1:42:01I won't be governor. I'll just be here
1:42:03in Yaba. Not I will not disturb anybody.
1:42:05[laughter] Don't worry, I'll answer your
1:42:06phone call.
1:42:07>> Quick break. You know how we're always
1:42:09talking about sending money back home?
1:42:11The diaspora sent home last year $20
1:42:13billion [music] just in Nigeria alone,
1:42:15right? A lot of that money goes to ping
1:42:17a maybe building a house that you only
1:42:20visit twice a year. Meanwhile, some of
1:42:21us are in Lagos watching Tesla stock go
1:42:24up 15% and not being able to have access
1:42:26to [music] it. I don't think that that's
1:42:28right. And I feel like that's one of the
1:42:30reasons that we've partnered with HISA.
1:42:32With HISA, you can sit on your couch and
1:42:34invest in US stocks, crypto, ETFs
1:42:38[music] in the Kenyan and the Nigerian
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1:42:45off investing and you're not able to get
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1:43:01Aphropolitan. Stop letting your money
1:43:03sit [music] there while you argue about
1:43:05Nairo on Twitter. All right, back to it.
1:43:08So, let's transition to our rapid fire
1:43:10um segment. And the first thought that
1:43:12comes to mind, what is one thing Africa
1:43:16needs to stop waiting for the West to
1:43:17validate
1:43:18>> the opportunity here? Like, do not even
1:43:23like when anybody tells you it's not big
1:43:26enough market, just laugh and move on.
1:43:28Don't even argue. Don't even argue. You
1:43:31know, I was reading, you know, I was
1:43:33reading the book of Nemiah, right? It's
1:43:35one of my inspirations. And you know,
1:43:37the first thing when somebody when when
1:43:40devil knows you're building something
1:43:41important, the first thing he uses to
1:43:43dissuade you is mockery.
1:43:46>> So when I say we're going to build a
1:43:47trillion dollar company from here in
1:43:49Lagos, Nigeria, and I'm glad this is
1:43:51video. This is momentto. You can clip
1:43:53it. [laughter] You want the rights. And
1:43:55I'm investor. So it's okay.
1:43:59I say that because I remember when we
1:44:02said we're going to build unicorns from
1:44:04Nigeria and everybody was like, "Let's
1:44:06do zebra. Let's do cow. Let's do
1:44:09>> cow." [laughter]
1:44:11>> AND I was like, "Why can How is it that
1:44:14Americans can do unicorn and we cannot?
1:44:16>> We have to do cow."
1:44:18>> Do you understand? I don't understand
1:44:19it.
1:44:20>> So, I'm not agreeing.
1:44:21>> So, we will do unicorn. If they're doing
1:44:23unicorn, we'll do unicorn. Now I'm
1:44:24seeing that trillion dollar companies
1:44:26are possible to build from here. We just
1:44:29need to get to work.
1:44:32>> Yeah.
1:44:32>> Period.
1:44:33>> In 10 years, if this works, what changes
1:44:36first?
1:44:38>> I think the first thing that needs to
1:44:40change is people's willingness to deal
1:44:44with the messiness
1:44:46of solving problems.
1:44:49I feel like, and I always tell people
1:44:52this, the default outcome of any
1:44:54endeavor is failure. Most things fail.
1:44:58Not just businesses.
1:45:00Most relationships fail. [laughter]
1:45:03Most marriages fail.
1:45:04>> Yeah.
1:45:05>> Right. It's like most things actually
1:45:06fail. Anything that succeeds requires a
1:45:08lot of hard work and several tries at
1:45:10it.
1:45:12>> So if you let something just be in its
1:45:13natural state, it will fail.
1:45:15>> Yeah. So I feel like this expectation
1:45:18that success is assured and starting at
1:45:21that base is is kind of a dangerous
1:45:24mentality
1:45:25>> that a lot of young people have sort of
1:45:27swallowed and that needs to be
1:45:30unlearned. Like people have to be very
1:45:32comfortable with trying and failing and
1:45:34then trying all over again
1:45:37>> for us to really see things succeed.
1:45:40>> Who do we need to watch?
1:45:42You mean who do we need to watch try and
1:45:45fail?
1:45:45>> No, just in general who who's someone we
1:45:47need to pay attention to?
1:45:49>> Look, I mean I I think so I started
1:45:52reading biographies of Alaji Dantata.
1:45:57>> That's Aliko's grandfather. Al Hassan I
1:46:00think Dantata. Al Hassan Dantata was an
1:46:04alajgery.
1:46:07>> Do you understand what I'm saying? and
1:46:08he built and built and built and built
1:46:10and built and built and built and built
1:46:12and built. Alaji has been in business
1:46:15for the last 50 years. And I know
1:46:17everybody is a monopolist, is this, is
1:46:19that? And I'm like, okay, is he the only
1:46:22monopolist?
1:46:23>> No.
1:46:24>> What did the other people do with their
1:46:25monopoly? [laughter]
1:46:27>> Let's just lay it out. What did you do?
1:46:29You a monopolist too now. So, what did
1:46:31you do with your monopoly? Did you
1:46:32[laughter] use it? Well,
1:46:34>> you understand what I'm saying? So I
1:46:36believe all this stuff is just western
1:46:38sponsored attacks and they sell it to
1:46:40our people particular educated elites
1:46:42and they buy it hookline and sinker
1:46:44building here anything at scale is hard
1:46:48I like to look at those who have
1:46:49succeeded here cuz this is my context I
1:46:52understand this context do you
1:46:55understand now you look at analogy do
1:46:57you know allergy went into telecoms and
1:46:58didn't succeed
1:47:00>> people don't know that part of
1:47:01>> a bunch of industries he's gone into
1:47:03succa
1:47:05Yeah,
1:47:06[laughter]
1:47:08>> everything.
1:47:09>> Do you understand what I'm saying? You
1:47:10don't need to wait for for to tell you
1:47:13that. Yeah. Yeah. Even that one said he
1:47:15was saved by his friends. I'm telling
1:47:17you that these people, you understand
1:47:20what I'm saying? Without the network, as
1:47:22successful as he seems now and
1:47:24invincible, he went into business
1:47:25endeavors that almost ruined him
1:47:29>> and he survived.
1:47:31>> Will you ever go back to Twitter?
1:47:34>> No. So the thing about Twitter is this.
1:47:36I I have to be honest with you.
1:47:38>> The level of noise to signal ratio in my
1:47:41life now is such that I won't find time
1:47:44for it.
1:47:45>> Yeah,
1:47:46>> that's the problem. I won't be able to
1:47:47find time. I've tried to there's a lot
1:47:51of education that still needs to be
1:47:52done. But my preference is just to do
1:47:54podcast. It's 1 hour 30 minutes. I'm
1:47:57talking to my friends. You're going to
1:47:58ask tough questions. People can make
1:48:00their comments, whatever. And that's
1:48:02okay. and I shove it away and that's how
1:48:05because education is still necessary
1:48:07>> as leaders we have to educate but the
1:48:10problem with Twitter in my view is that
1:48:13you're throwing pearl before swines
1:48:17>> you understand people do not want to
1:48:20learn people are looking for an excuse
1:48:22for their failures
1:48:24right they want validation
1:48:27for the situation that they inspiration
1:48:32that can help them to do better. And so
1:48:34long as that's the default state on
1:48:36Twitter,
1:48:37you're not going to make any dent even
1:48:40because we can't build all these things
1:48:42alone, right? It wasn't one man that
1:48:45built America.
1:48:46>> Yeah.
1:48:46>> Is men I be and women even though they
1:48:49didn't acknowledge them that built
1:48:51America. So for me, I'm like there needs
1:48:53to be a space created and I'm hoping
1:48:55that that's something else that
1:48:56Afropolitan can take on where people who
1:48:58are serious about building
1:49:00>> can come together and cuz there's just
1:49:02so many jokers around.
1:49:04>> Well, what do you think is the
1:49:05disconnect? Cuz obviously I already
1:49:06reached this same conclusion that you
1:49:08that you just reached, but what is the
1:49:10disconnect? Because back in the day, at
1:49:12least even for me, I would have been
1:49:13excited to be in any space, whether it
1:49:15was clubhouse or if it was in a room
1:49:17where there other builders in and you
1:49:19get to even hear the thoughts. It's not
1:49:20to say that you agree with everything
1:49:22that a builder says, but it's almost
1:49:24like
1:49:25>> there's a even like when Tilson from
1:49:27Money Point mentioned the whole thing
1:49:28about talent, right? There's no builder,
1:49:30there's nobody who's been in the
1:49:31trenches that doesn't understand what
1:49:32he's talking about, but the immediate
1:49:34reaction is ego or how dare you or blah
1:49:37blah blah blah. And it's like what are
1:49:39we why can't we get to the point where
1:49:40we just say this is a reality of a
1:49:42thing. It doesn't mean that it's going
1:49:43to be a permanent state, but first to
1:49:45fix it, we need to do an analysis, a
1:49:47diagnosis, say this is where we are
1:49:49today. This is where we're going. Why
1:49:50are we It feels like we're incapable of
1:49:52having that conversation in a nuance
1:49:54format.
1:49:54>> The truth of the matter is that
1:49:57the the generation of people who built
1:50:00Nigeria
1:50:03has passed away.
1:50:05What you have now are influencers.
1:50:08We're a generation of influencers,
1:50:11right? How many people actually know how
1:50:15a house is built? I was having a
1:50:18conversation with my dad. He built his
1:50:19house brick by brick, [laughter]
1:50:23>> showing up on the site every day. You
1:50:25You just move in. Do you know what
1:50:27foundation looks like?
1:50:28>> Nope.
1:50:30>> Do you even know? Do you even know how
1:50:32cement is mixed? Do you know what it
1:50:34takes to make a brick? Do you know? You
1:50:36don't know now.
1:50:38>> Do you know how many trips of sand?
1:50:39>> Yeah.
1:50:40>> And how many gravel you need
1:50:42>> on the wheelbarrows?
1:50:43>> Do you understand? Do you don't know?
1:50:45You don't know what decking is? Do you
1:50:47know? You don't know now. You just buy a
1:50:49house and you enter.
1:50:51>> We're a generation of influencers.
1:50:53>> So people are trained to perform, not to
1:50:56build.
1:50:56>> Yeah.
1:50:56>> And you see it sipping into companies,
1:50:58right? Where people want to perform
1:51:00building a company, perform
1:51:01entrepreneurship.
1:51:03>> Do you understand? People don't
1:51:04understand value. People don't
1:51:06understand building. They don't have the
1:51:08wisdom to build. They don't know things
1:51:09take time. The truth of the matter is
1:51:12until as a generation until a few it
1:51:14just takes a few people to just say guys
1:51:17I'm tired of performing and I mean the
1:51:21only reason why I'm not on Twitter is
1:51:23because it's just a waste of my time but
1:51:26the honest truth is it's not that the
1:51:29conversation is the waste of my time
1:51:31because it's always an important
1:51:32conversation to have as a nation but
1:51:35today right is there anybody under the
1:51:38age of 50 you'll be comfortable being
1:51:40your president
1:51:43[snorts]
1:51:46>> 50
1:51:47>> under 50.
1:51:49>> Yeah.
1:51:54>> Now, no one comes to there's certain
1:51:56people that I would have to have a
1:51:57deeper conversation with.
1:51:59>> You you do you understand what I'm
1:52:00saying?
1:52:01>> It's not
1:52:01>> Chinubu by the age of 35 was
1:52:04presidential candidate material.
1:52:07>> He financed Nadu.
1:52:08>> Yeah. back then.
1:52:11>> So all our generation of people that
1:52:13complain about Tinubu are doing eh all
1:52:16we've done is insult him.
1:52:19Same thing with Pi built a bank. Who who
1:52:22in our generation even owns one under
1:52:24the age of 50? Who owns a bank that is
1:52:26under the age of 50?
1:52:27>> Them Herberts them
1:52:29>> at 35 they own the bank.
1:52:31>> Even the GTB guys.
1:52:33>> Yeah,
1:52:34>> they own the bank. It's a significant
1:52:36bank. And if you even want to go to the
1:52:37government side in the 30s, they already
1:52:39carrying guns to be do cool.
1:52:41>> They doing cool. They were doing
1:52:43ministers.
1:52:44>> Patrick Kutotoi.
1:52:46>> Yeah.
1:52:46>> Um um um um how how old was um Uncle
1:52:51Duke.
1:52:52>> Yeah. Donald Duke.
1:52:53>> Donald Duke. So my point is we're a
1:52:56generation of influencers. We don't know
1:52:58how to build anything
1:53:00until all of us sit down at the table
1:53:02and just tell ourselves that truth like
1:53:03come on. We are just performing artists.
1:53:06All of us are just we are different
1:53:08versions of DAVID DO [laughter]
1:53:11and we kids you know the alphas and then
1:53:13the rest of us. When we just sit down
1:53:15and tell ourselves that then I hope that
1:53:17it just generates a reflection. People
1:53:19are like ah okay you know what I'm done
1:53:21performing. Let me go and enter streets
1:53:23>> and build
1:53:24>> and build something that I can pass on
1:53:26to my children. What is it your tweet
1:53:27you're going to give your children?
1:53:29[laughter]
1:53:32>> No more no more NFT. Do you understand?
1:53:34Is it your tweet? Is it on banger
1:53:37tweets? [laughter]
1:53:39>> So I woke up one day with this
1:53:40realization. I was like, I can't waste
1:53:43my time [laughter] writing, you know,
1:53:45doing banger boy, writing banger tweets.
1:53:48>> Well, you understand at 35, my mates
1:53:51were buying banks. What did I buy?
1:53:54[laughter]
1:53:55>> Do you understand? They were buying
1:53:56banks that were older than them.
1:53:59What which person under under 50 has
1:54:03actually bought
1:54:04>> a significant asset in this country
1:54:07>> that we all know that didn't inherit it.
1:54:10>> Yeah.
1:54:11>> Who? So we're a generation of jokers.
1:54:14You just need to tell ourselves the
1:54:15truth first
1:54:17>> so that we can now all
1:54:19>> let it sink in. Then we will now be able
1:54:22to now say okay you know what I think
1:54:25play time is over. Because at some
1:54:27point, and that's what I hope people
1:54:29recognize, Nigeria's problems become
1:54:31yours
1:54:33>> regardless.
1:54:34>> Regardless, yeah,
1:54:36>> they'll die all these bas
1:54:39globally.
1:54:40>> You don't understand what no forget that
1:54:43sentence is very multifaceted. So I
1:54:45don't want think you understand the
1:54:46dimension in which
1:54:47>> today we are blaming leaders. Abby,
1:54:50>> tomorrow when these leaders die, you
1:54:53become the leader.
1:54:56>> [laughter]
1:54:56>> So the problem becomes yours to fix.
1:55:00Do you understand? At one time, you
1:55:02know, Tinu could sit down and be like,
1:55:04"Ah, Bhari or maybe he didn't say Bi,
1:55:07but maybe Jonathan or maybe he could say
1:55:10Abdul Salam Abbacha is a bad man." Da da
1:55:12da. But guess what?
1:55:14>> Today is him.
1:55:14>> Today he's a bad man. [laughter]
1:55:17>> He's a bad man now. He has to be the
1:55:20one. He's in charge. He cannot blame
1:55:21anybody.
1:55:23your whole life all you know how to do
1:55:25is complain about how other people are
1:55:27doing it bad which day will you now
1:55:29build the one that you say is better
1:55:32which day
1:55:33>> I mean you just keep complaining and
1:55:35complain and complaining for the rest of
1:55:36your life so a lot of us young people
1:55:38need to pull ourselves into rooms and be
1:55:40like
1:55:42you are no longer at the place in your
1:55:44life where you could complain about
1:55:45Nigeria's problem over beer and pop
1:55:47bottles [laughter]
1:55:49and drink your sorrows away now it's
1:55:51your problem what are you going to about
1:55:53it because whatever problems they
1:55:55leaving for you, they're not they don't
1:55:57care. They even if they care, there's
1:55:59nothing they can do about it because the
1:56:00day they die is the day they die.
1:56:03>> Yeah.
1:56:04>> They will leave you with the problem and
1:56:06it's your job [laughter]
1:56:09to fix it. So if you don't build the
1:56:11muscle of inheriting the country that
1:56:15has been given to you, your children
1:56:16will just hear you complaining for the
1:56:18rest of your life about how your
1:56:20grandfather did not leave you.
1:56:22>> [laughter]
1:56:25>> You know, but in general before we even
1:56:26round up this point you made because
1:56:28it's come full circle. A lot of people
1:56:30felt okay from a middle class
1:56:33perspective. I think we had here and he
1:56:35says the middle class in Nigeria does
1:56:36not organize as effectively as maybe the
1:56:39lower class and obviously the the
1:56:40leaders that we have and a lot of people
1:56:42have this reaction like if the country
1:56:43is not working out just Japa but that
1:56:45we've also seen now that Japa is no
1:56:47longer a door that's going to be there
1:56:49forever because of the anti-immigration
1:56:51movement sweeping across the west. So
1:56:54what advice would you have and I think
1:56:55you already touched on this a little bit
1:56:57anyway. It's look this door this exit
1:56:59that we were all trying to go to.
1:57:00They're now closing it. So it's almost
1:57:02looking like all of us are going to be
1:57:03inside the country together. So what
1:57:04does that now look like?
1:57:05>> I don't think it should even be about
1:57:07the exit cuz my view is that shame first
1:57:10supposed first catch you [laughter] say
1:57:12you're a citizen of a country and that
1:57:14country cannot do anything.
1:57:17>> Do you understand? Like they kidnapping
1:57:18children and you are sharing passports
1:57:20with the children that are being
1:57:22kidnapped.
1:57:22>> You said you're supposed shame they
1:57:24catch me. I don't know about you, but
1:57:26I'm like,
1:57:27>> how can I be in a country and they
1:57:29picked up some some random people picked
1:57:32up children and they're asking for money
1:57:34and we are negotiating with them? You
1:57:36supposed you you are supposed to be like
1:57:39ah no now no now that's not right.
1:57:42>> What how much money do we need to pay to
1:57:45just eliminate their generation?
1:57:47>> Yeah.
1:57:47>> Even if they call it genocide, let's
1:57:49just cut them off.
1:57:51>> Do you understand? like you should be
1:57:53that incense as a citizen,
1:57:55>> you understand? That shares a heritage
1:57:57with
1:57:58>> those people. So I I'm only saying this
1:58:00to say that
1:58:02>> I don't think as young people we've
1:58:04gotten to the point where anger is a
1:58:06productive emotion for us. We're still
1:58:08at the point of expression.
1:58:10>> Yeah.
1:58:11But we very quickly need to get to the
1:58:13point of introspection where we are now
1:58:15saying, okay, how do we actually
1:58:17architect a security system that
1:58:19protects Nigerians? Because these old
1:58:20people don't know what they're doing.
1:58:22>> Yeah.
1:58:23>> And build it.
1:58:23>> It is at that point we are now ready to
1:58:26take over the mantle of leadership. The
1:58:28soldiers didn't just cool because they
1:58:31wanted to cool.
1:58:33Even though some of it was that they saw
1:58:36themselves as co-builders of a new
1:58:38independent nation.
1:58:40>> So that was what motivated them to start
1:58:42having these deep philosophical
1:58:44conversations about how do we move this
1:58:46thing forward?
1:58:48>> Do you understand what I'm saying? And
1:58:49they did a lot of things that were good
1:58:51and they did a lot of things that were
1:58:52bad. But at the end of the day, they've
1:58:53handed us what they've handed us. And
1:58:55it's not bad.
1:58:56>> Yeah. This country was bought for 70
1:58:58million uh pounds.
1:59:01Yeah. So
1:59:03>> by the British that's how much they
1:59:04bought it. Today is 300 billion. You
1:59:07know try [laughter]
1:59:09>> it was a nice exit.
1:59:12>> Do you understand? The valuation is not
1:59:14bad if you look at the ROI. So we now
1:59:17our work is to take it to a trillion.
1:59:19>> Yeah.
1:59:20>> You understand? So what is our work?
1:59:23>> Do you understand? Are we thinking about
1:59:25it in that way? What is our plan for a
1:59:26trillion dollar? When you say those
1:59:27things on Twitter, people like, "Oh,
1:59:28it's not possible for Nigeria to be a
1:59:30trillion dollars." How are you proud?
1:59:31Open your mouth to say it's not possible
1:59:32for Nigeria to be a trillion dollars and
1:59:34you are a citizen of the country. So,
1:59:35what is your use? Why? Why did we count
1:59:38you as citizen? Why are you why are you
1:59:40here?
1:59:41>> Do you understand?
1:59:42>> You are in a country, the vast majority
1:59:43of kids are not in school. You should be
1:59:45ashamed.
1:59:46>> Yeah.
1:59:47>> To even open your mouth and say it. And
1:59:48the ones that are going to school are
1:59:50being kidnapped. You should be coming up
1:59:52with plans by now to say this is how we
1:59:54secure our borders. Is this how we know
1:59:56how you know?
1:59:58>> But that's where we need to go.
1:59:59>> But I think actually before I ask the
2:00:01last question I always ask is how many
2:00:03people do you think need to be in that
2:00:05room
2:00:06>> for functional?
2:00:07>> It's a coalition of the willing. You see
2:00:09the problem is this, right? Because
2:00:11we're a performance culture,
2:00:13>> right? Everybody wants to be in that
2:00:16room, but they may not have anything to
2:00:17bring to it.
2:00:18>> Very true.
2:00:19>> And most don't.
2:00:20>> Do you understand? That's why when we're
2:00:21talking about youth confab, I must just
2:00:23miss me with that [ __ ] the the
2:00:25people the young people that want to run
2:00:27Nigeria will not need to be confirmed.
2:00:30>> They will just do it.
2:00:31>> They don't need they don't need
2:00:32permission.
2:00:32>> Do you understand? When people were
2:00:34planning cool, did they need do they
2:00:36need a [laughter] do you understand what
2:00:37I'm saying?
2:00:38>> A coalition.
2:00:39>> They need a coalition plans as a
2:00:41coalition. Now you put yourself in
2:00:43danger. So my point is if you believe
2:00:45the country, we have a direction for the
2:00:48country, right? That's my view. Talk to
2:00:50other people that share your vision and
2:00:52build together.
2:00:53>> Do you understand? It's not about a It's
2:00:55not about uh do you understand
2:00:57performing. It's not about people in a
2:01:00room. I hate that conversation about
2:01:02being in a room because I know most
2:01:04things don't happen in rooms.
2:01:05>> All that happens in rooms people perform
2:01:07for each other. Which which significant
2:01:08when you were starting this company? Was
2:01:10it a room? Did we not hike? [laughter]
2:01:12>> Was he not hiking with hiking? Yes.
2:01:13>> He's not hiking with you know room.
2:01:15Which room?
2:01:16>> Nothing happens in a room.
2:01:18>> Yeah.
2:01:18>> It happens because you have a
2:01:20relationship.
2:01:21>> So who are you building a relationship
2:01:22with? You guys have built something
2:01:24amazing in media.
2:01:25>> Yeah.
2:01:25>> Right. And every way we can support you,
2:01:27we're supporting you. You understand?
2:01:29And we'll continue support because we
2:01:30know why it's important.
2:01:31>> So what are you doing for your friend
2:01:32that's trying to do something that can
2:01:34shift the perspective of the country
2:01:36>> and the perspective on the country?
2:01:38>> That's the work.
2:01:40>> Yeah.
2:01:40>> Not room. All this room confab meeting
2:01:44this thing is just nonsense. Yeah,
2:01:46>> if you are ready to do the work, okay,
2:01:49your out of your small resources, put
2:01:51money in somebody that you believe is
2:01:52doing work that matters to you,
2:01:54>> not it's not about just, which is what a
2:01:57lot of us young people do.
2:02:00>> Okay. Well, the last question [laughter]
2:02:03I ask every single guest on the podcast
2:02:05is, who do you think needs to be on this
2:02:07chair, especially after this
2:02:08conversation?
2:02:10>> Somebody that you can help bring to the
2:02:12>> I've tried now. I know you have tried.
2:02:14I've tried many, but There's a one
2:02:16person I would say um I'm very enamored
2:02:19by him because I almost feel like you
2:02:20know every time God brings me somebody
2:02:22who was like
2:02:23>> we like nobody has ever done these
2:02:25things before God what do you mean I can
2:02:27can't be me you know hey chill you're
2:02:31not the only one there's a guy called
2:02:33Nicholas Bratweight people say that I've
2:02:35built unicorns you need to meet somebody
2:02:37that has actually built a lot of
2:02:38unicorns in the US
2:02:42>> Nicholas Bratweight is the founding
2:02:44partner of Celesta Capital all, but he
2:02:46used to be the CTO of Flexronics
2:02:49>> and he took Flexronics from $300 million
2:02:52in revenue to 30 billion.
2:02:55>> Wow.
2:02:55>> And he's the number one by DPI is the
2:02:58number one deep tech investor in the
2:02:59world. And guess what the Shaka is? He's
2:03:02a black guy.
2:03:03>> Wow.
2:03:03>> Wait, where is he based?
2:03:05>> Silicon Valley.
2:03:06>> Okay, we're going. [laughter]
2:03:08>> He's a black guy. Trust me. From
2:03:10Granada. Proper
2:03:12>> Granada. Ooh, that's a beautiful
2:03:14country.
2:03:14>> He's the chancellor of um of McMaster
2:03:16University
2:03:18>> proper.
2:03:20>> Okay,
2:03:20>> so when you talk about black people
2:03:22building,
2:03:23>> I think that's somebody you need to sit
2:03:25down with.
2:03:25>> Okay.
2:03:25>> And then at some point you need to sit
2:03:27down with me cuz this thing people are
2:03:29doing is not complete. I've told you
2:03:30guys let's go in August.
2:03:32>> Yeah.
2:03:32>> Sit down with me.
2:03:34>> Okay.
2:03:35>> In bab.
2:03:36>> Yeah.
2:03:37>> Okay. So I'm Hey, [laughter]
2:03:41it's not a problem.
2:03:42>> Yeah,
2:03:43>> let's go. Let's go in August. Go and sit
2:03:45down with me and mly cuz you need to
2:03:47understand. So I think what the problem
2:03:49we suffer with in Africa and with black
2:03:51people is that they are role models but
2:03:54they are not put in front of us. Yeah,
2:03:56>> the people that are held up as models
2:03:58are who the system prefers to hold up
2:04:01because their preference is that
2:04:03>> they find models they can control
2:04:06>> as opposed to you finding true models
2:04:08that are truly independent. So you've
2:04:10never heard about David Stewart, you've
2:04:12never heard about Nicholas Bradweight.
2:04:13Many people have never heard about Mia
2:04:15Mley until now. She's been in that
2:04:16country now maybe 12 years,
2:04:19>> you know. Um, there many many other
2:04:21people and I always hold that thought
2:04:22people many black Americans have never
2:04:24heard about Aliko until now.
2:04:26>> Even though he's been the richest black
2:04:27man in the world for the better part of
2:04:29the last decade, [laughter]
2:04:31>> they still don't know who he is.
2:04:32>> They still don't know who he is. So the
2:04:34system actively stops us from looking
2:04:36for each other.
2:04:37>> Yeah.
2:04:38>> They put the symbols they control in
2:04:40front of us cuz they're like, "This is
2:04:41all you can attain."
2:04:43>> Yeah.
2:04:44>> Right. This is all you can attain. Don't
2:04:47go past this thing. and who is held up
2:04:50in front of you is so important for your
2:04:52psychology. If I didn't grow up in a
2:04:53country where Aliko existed, I wouldn't
2:04:56be trying to build billion dollar
2:04:58companies. But my view is uh not only
2:05:01have I been in a room with him, I've
2:05:02been there. I've seen it before him late
2:05:05week and uncle Ike I've seen people
2:05:08build billion dollar companies like you
2:05:09know they're just like breakfast. So I'm
2:05:12just like yeah billion dollars it's
2:05:14done. But I can only imagine what it
2:05:16feels like for a black person that has
2:05:17never seen people do that at scale
2:05:20before.
2:05:20>> Yeah. And all you know is really
2:05:22hip-hop.
2:05:22>> All you know, oh, if I want to be a
2:05:24billionaire, I need sports.
2:05:25>> I need to go into entertainment. I need
2:05:27to go into sports.
2:05:28>> Yeah. And you don't know. And even that
2:05:30someone has to wield that to you versus
2:05:33you just get up one day and decide to
2:05:34build brick by brick. It's important.
2:05:36>> Yeah. So, I think we just need to expose
2:05:38people to more of those types of folks.
2:05:40>> And we will. Thank you, man.
2:05:42>> Thank you,
2:05:43>> Son. Someone was delivered. [laughter]
2:05:47>> Thank you.

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