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WATCH LIVE: Former death row prisoner Anthony Ray Hinton shares his path to freedom and forgiveness — Transcript

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0:02[Music]
0:23When they said guilty,
0:26I really lost sight for a few seconds. I
0:30was just totally in shock.
0:33I I wanted to know what did they find me
0:35guilty on. And to me, it wasn't nothing
0:38but a high class lynching. And I often
0:42tell people, two white men came and
0:45arrested me.
0:47Three white men prosecuted me. A white
0:50judge sentenced me. And a white jury
0:53found me guilty.
0:58[Music]
1:05[Applause]
1:08Yeah.
1:10[Music]
1:27[Music]
1:37Hello and welcome to Washington Post
1:40Live. I'm Robin Gavon, senior critic at
1:42large at the Washington Post. Today we
1:45are continuing our series on race in
1:48America with Anthony Ray Hinton, who's
1:51just released a young reader edition of
1:54his best-selling book, The Sun Does
1:56Shine. Thank you for joining us and
1:59welcome, Mr. Hinton.
2:01Thank you for having me.
2:04I I wanted to start by reading a short
2:08excerpt from your book. Uh, just like
2:11anyone else, Rey had grown up with
2:14dreams. A baseball scholarship, maybe
2:16marriage and kids, a fancy job, a nice
2:19car. He had dreamed of so much, but
2:22nothing like this nightmare he was
2:24living. I I'm curious, have any of your
2:29childhood dreams come true?
2:34Uh, if I'm going to be honest, uh, the
2:37answer would be no.
2:39uh
2:41and I try not to dwell on it. Uh I just
2:46have been a person that accept each day
2:50for what it is and I try to move
2:52forward. Uh
2:55if I could say so, I know without a
2:58doubt I was one hell of a baseball
3:01player. I know without a doubt I could
3:04hit a baseball like no other. And when I
3:08hit it, God for some reason gave me the
3:12power to take it beyond the fence so I
3:15could walk around the base because I
3:17never been a fast runner. And I believe
3:19he gave me the power so I could take my
3:22time to get home. Even when I was
3:24younger, all of my uh other four
3:27siblings, they was really fast and I was
3:29slow, but they couldn't hit a baseball
3:32like I could. And so I've always had a
3:34dream of playing in the major league. I
3:38have always had the ability to see
3:40myself
3:42uh in the major league and I went to a
3:44predominantly white school and I played
3:47uh baseball. My band average uh was 618
3:52from the ninth grade to the 12th grade.
3:54Uh I don't know too many places that you
3:58don't at least get a look at when you
4:00got this type of ban marriage. I didn't
4:03was never offered any kind of
4:05scholarship to go to any junior college
4:08or or university. And I began to realize
4:13that race played a part. I truly believe
4:17in me not being accepted and getting at
4:19least an offer from uh schools. And my
4:25school didn't help it at all. It was uh
4:27as I said, predominately white. or
4:31it was racist. And I was there for one
4:35reason and one reason only. I was zoned
4:37there.
4:39I went there to get an education. I got
4:41the best education that I could get and
4:44I didn't look back. I didn't worry about
4:46what wasn't and here I am. Uh so to
4:51really answer your question, no, I
4:54always have dreamed of being a major
4:56league. Uh,
4:59it's kind of ironic you would ask me
5:01that question because I once
5:05went through different neighborhood and
5:07ask young people my age at the 11th and
5:1012th grade what did they want to be when
5:13they grew up. And
5:17every black that I asked, they wanted to
5:20be lawyers and doctors and firefighters
5:22and police officer, nurses, school
5:25teacher. And I got one of my mother
5:28friends to take me over into the white
5:29community. And I asked the white student
5:32the same question. What do they want to
5:35be when they uh grow up?
5:38Believe it or not, the white student
5:40wanted to be the same thing as black
5:41student. And over the course of years, I
5:46have tried to find out what happened to
5:48this particular lady who wanted to be a
5:50nurse. What happened to this guy that
5:52wanted to be a doctor? And I realized
5:54that for African America, we have been
5:58sold a false dream. Or when people say
6:02you can be anything you want to be, I
6:05really believe that is false. Or no
6:07matter how hard I work, no matter how
6:10good I am, I have come
6:14to believe that I am only allowed to go
6:17so far.
6:19And
6:21I have learned, I guess, in a way to
6:23accept that. I try not to worry about
6:26anything that I don't have the power to
6:28change.
6:30I I know you were only 29 years old when
6:33you were charged with two counts of
6:35capital murder. And uh the police
6:38lieutenant who uh detained you said that
6:42he didn't care whether you had did the
6:45crime or had not. When you heard that,
6:49did you at that point in your life think
6:52that it was just one man talking or did
6:57you really recognize it as something
7:00that was systemic and and with very deep
7:04and wide roots?
7:06Uh I realized at that moment it was
7:08systemic. I mean uh he spoke for
7:13the entire justice system. He spoke for
7:16what he knew. Um, let me say this
7:21unequivocally.
7:23I didn't fault him for what he said. At
7:25least he told me the truth. Uh, but when
7:28that same detective told me the five
7:32things that was going to find me guilty.
7:35Uh, but before I went to trial, that
7:38detective was dead on the money. And if
7:43I if I could meet that detective
7:45tomorrow,
7:47I would say, "Hey, you was exactly
7:49right. It was a white
7:52What did he say were the the five things
7:55that would convict you if not evidence?"
7:59Uh, he said there's five things that
8:02going to convict you. He asked me the
8:04question, "Would you like to know what
8:06they are?" And I said, "Yes." He said,
8:08"Number one, you're black. Number two,
8:10you going to have a white prosecutor.
8:13Uh, number three, you going to have a
8:14white judge. Number four, you going to
8:16have a all-white jury. And he said,
8:18number five, the fact that you black. He
8:21said, do you know what that spell? He
8:23said, conviction, conviction,
8:25conviction, conviction, conviction. And
8:29those was the thing that convicted me.
8:32He he not one time did he say, "We have
8:34the evidence." Not one time did he say,
8:37"We got a witness that can place you at
8:39the scene of the crime." He said,
8:42"There's five things that going to
8:44convict you." And he had the audacity to
8:47ask me, "Would I like to know what they
8:49are?" And when he told me, I couldn't
8:52say a word. And those was the five
8:55things that convict.
8:58And believe it or not, when you faced
9:01with I guess truth,
9:04how can you get mad or I couldn't get
9:08mad? It just showed me the type of
9:12judicial system that we have. They don't
9:15convict you by evidence. They don't
9:16convict you uh by word or association
9:20sometime. Uh we have a system that treat
9:23you better if you're rich and guilty
9:25opposed to if you're poor and innocent.
9:27I was poor and innocent and I just
9:31happened to be born in the state of
9:32Alabama
9:34uh where it is in my honest opinion
9:38one of the hardest place to prove your
9:40innocent if you don't have the money to
9:42hire uh a decent defense.
9:47And so as I sit there in that 5 by7
9:50every day
9:52uh I asked myself what did I do? I
9:55didn't make myself black. This is the
9:57way God created me. I haven't I don't
10:01have a history of violence. I don't have
10:03a history of doing things wrong. I have
10:06um done something wrong, but never to
10:09the extent of killing someone, fighting
10:11someone. Uh I believe we can disagree. I
10:14don't believe we have to throw punches.
10:17And I just couldn't understand why did
10:19they pick me of all people? Why me? And
10:25those lies, they almost got away with
10:28taking my life had it not been for the
10:30Equal Justice Initiative. Uh, Mr. Brian
10:33Stevenerson and the law.
10:36I'm curious because in the book you you
10:39know you talk uh at length obviously
10:41about your your upbringing and about
10:43your mother in particular and one of the
10:46things that you talk about is that you
10:49were uh raised to um respect authority
10:53that you were raised to believe that the
10:56police were there to help you. I mean,
10:58how did you
11:01make sense of what you had been taught
11:05as a child and as a teenager with what
11:08was happening to you as a young adult?
11:11Well, to be honest with you, I truly
11:14believe one have to I sit there and I
11:18believe that a mistake had been made or
11:22you have to tell yourself out asking
11:25yourself
11:27and you know you didn't do it. I kept
11:29saying well they going to find out that
11:31they don't made a mistake. They going to
11:33come back and say uh Mr. Hinton we sorry
11:37or we made a mistake and you free to go.
11:39I believed in that up until I went to
11:41trial. Um, believe it or not, I believed
11:44in that even after I was convicted. I
11:46kept saying, uh, one day a lawyer or
11:50somebody going to look at this case
11:51again and say, "We made a mistake and
11:55they was going to reopen the case." And
11:57if you go back and if you can't go back,
12:00even when I was convicted, I told the
12:03judge uh during the citizen phrase, I
12:06said, "One day God is going to reopen
12:08this case and you going to see that I
12:11did not commit this crime." I said, "But
12:14if you kill me, innocent blood will be
12:18on your hand." And it was like, I've
12:22seen this in the future. I really
12:23believe that one day someone would come
12:26and reopen the case. And thank God the
12:29justice initiative uh took my case and
12:33it took them 16 diligent years to
12:36finally get to court to overturn my case
12:41and
12:42finally I was set free on April the 3rd,
12:452015. But I should have never had to
12:48went through that. Or I keep hearing
12:51people say free.
12:53I I don't really believe I'll ever be
12:55free again. I live with the thought of
12:59going back at any day and any time. Uh
13:04anytime
13:06that you're brought up to believe in a
13:08system, my mom believe that the police
13:10was there to protect all people.
13:14My mother instilled in me that the
13:16police is your friend. If you haven't
13:18done anything, you have no reason to
13:20run. If you haven't done anything, you
13:22have no reason to lie. What no one is
13:26focusing on the gun that the police
13:30department used against me. I am the one
13:34that volunteered and told them that my
13:36mother uh had a pistol.
13:39They had no search warrant for to search
13:41the house for a pistol.
13:43Truth is what I stood on because my
13:46mother had instilled in me. Always tell
13:50the truth.
13:52That day the truth cost me 30 years of
13:54my life. And the truth almost
13:59got me executed for a crime. They knew
14:02and I say it proudly. They knew that I
14:04was innocent,
14:06but they didn't care.
14:08Do you ever look back and and say to
14:10yourself, I should have run?
14:14No. Uh
14:16that same system that is not meant for
14:20me. That same system would have used
14:23that, well, why did he run? Or that same
14:26system would say he must be guilty. He
14:29ran.
14:30And so I stood there like a man. You
14:33know, my let me say this. My mother
14:36brought me up and if there's one thing I
14:40will never forget the rest of my life.
14:43My mother told me one day, she said, "If
14:46you man enough
14:48to bend down and pick up a rock
14:51and if you man enough to throw that
14:53rock, then you should be man enough to
14:56say you throw that rock." My mother was
14:59telling me, "If you man enough to do
15:01something,
15:02be man enough to say I did it."
15:05regardless of the consequences, but be
15:07man enough to stand up and say, "Hey, I
15:10did it. He didn't do it. I throw that
15:12rock."
15:13And so,
15:15I grew up just being blunt, honest when
15:18it came to authority. I respect
15:20authority even to this day.
15:23I truly believe that all of us should
15:26learn to respect authority, but I also
15:28believe that authority should never
15:31abuse the authority the way they abused
15:33it on me.
15:35you when you mention your mother, I mean
15:38she she passed away while you were um in
15:40prison and uh she was stalwart in her
15:44belief in your innocence as uh was your
15:47friend Lester? I mean, can you talk a
15:51little bit about what um their support
15:54meant? And I'm curious if they ever
15:57talked about um the the fact that you
16:01know an an entire family, an entire
16:03community was in many ways um imprisoned
16:08along with you.
16:10Oh, first you know I
16:15my um
16:20my mother was a believer
16:24in God
16:26and she brought every one of her kids up
16:29to respect others regardless of race.
16:33My mother was a person who
16:38had unconditional love for her children.
16:41And when it came to me, my mother and I
16:43had one of the most beautiful
16:45relationship a mother and son could
16:47have. Um,
16:51my mother was my father as well as my
16:54mother. My father worked in the mine and
16:56a rock fell on him and he lost his mind.
16:59And so therefore, my mother had to
17:00become my father.
17:03And I feared my mother in a way like I
17:05feared no man. My mother was just
17:08strict. Uh my mother believe that a
17:12child didn't have a right to say
17:14anything but do what they was told. And
17:18so I was okay with that. And when I got
17:22arrested,
17:24I realized at that moment that my mother
17:28watched her baby boy being kidnapped
17:31right in the very uh driveway that she
17:34watched the car go down. And when I got
17:38convicted, I truly believe that
17:43my mother tried to protect me as well as
17:45I tried to protect my mother. Every time
17:48I would talk to my mother, she would
17:49just ask me, "When are they going to let
17:51you come home?" And I would lie to her
17:55and I would say, "Mama, they working on
17:57it or it going to take some time, but
18:01eventually they going to let me come
18:02home." And I told that lie to my mother
18:05every time she asked me. And I was
18:07trying to protect my mother. I didn't
18:09really know whether my mom mother
18:12understood
18:14that I had been found guilty and would
18:16have sentenced to die. And I kept
18:19thinking,
18:22how do I protect my mother? I wasn't
18:24worried about me. But I knew that if I
18:27was to be executed,
18:30they would also be executing my mother.
18:34And so I tried to protect my mother in
18:36ways that
18:38you couldn't even imagine. I tried to be
18:40this happy kid that goes on the vision
18:43yard when she come and laugh and talk
18:45after I got out of the first three
18:47years. I didn't say anything. But after
18:50that,
18:51when my mother came to see me, I hugged
18:53her. I talked about how I missed her
18:56cooking. I talked about how I wish I
18:58could go fishing with her because she
19:00love fishing. I tried to show my mother
19:02that I was okay. I didn't want my mother
19:04to know that her baby boy really was in
19:09hell and what was going on
19:13behind
19:15the prison wall. I didn't want my mother
19:18know the abuse
19:20that
19:22one was going through. That's the love I
19:25had for my mother. So when she would
19:27come see me, I would put on a different
19:30face just so that hour or two hour or 3
19:35hours that she was there, she didn't see
19:38any pain. She didn't see any sorrow. She
19:41just seen a happiness. And I wanted her
19:45to leave knowing that I was laughing
19:47because I've always been a person
19:49believed in laughter.
19:51Uh
19:52could you be honest with your with your
19:54friend Lester?
19:56I I I was absolutely uh less than I have
20:00had some talk that I didn't want to
20:01have. I had to pull him aside and say,
20:04"Hey, I've been found guilty of a crime,
20:07you know, that I didn't commit." I said,
20:10"But just in case uh things don't go the
20:13way that we uh think they should go or
20:16the way that we want them to go, I want
20:18you to be there for my mother. I want
20:20you to bring my mother to see me, but I
20:23do not uh want you to bring allow my
20:26mother to come and witness my execution.
20:29I knew that my mother could not take
20:31that. uh her heart was fragile and
20:35I made him promise me that somehow that
20:39I wanted him to tell my mother what she
20:41have always told us
20:44that at some time in some point in life
20:48God and only God have the right to call
20:51you home and I want you to tell my
20:54mother the night of my execution
20:56that it was my time
21:00she brought us up to believe that all of
21:02us have a beginning date and an end
21:05date. I don't want you to get into the
21:08politics with my mother. I just want you
21:10to somehow convince my mother
21:14God didn't mean the most.
21:17And Rey is okay. Rey is at peace. I
21:20hated to have that conversation, but I
21:23believe that we all should be somewhat I
21:27would call it a backup just in case it
21:31didn't go the way that I wanted to go. I
21:33wanted to protect my mother even after
21:37my death. You know, I I would love to
21:40talk a little bit about um hope and
21:43compassion and and faith, all of which
21:45played significant roles in your being
21:48able to survive all those years. And you
21:52know, they have they say that sometimes
21:54hope can be a four-letter word. I mean,
21:57how did uh you look at hope as did you
22:01see it as something that would get you
22:03through? Did you see it as something
22:05that was a bit dangerous to cling to?
22:09And and this other part of the question
22:11is on the subject of forgiveness. Um you
22:15know people often say that um you know
22:18to forgive is really for the person who
22:21is is doing the forgiving. But does it
22:24also mean that the perpetrators are in
22:27some way left let off the hook?
22:30Well, let me start with hope.
22:33I don't believe that you nor I
22:36can lay down tonight and not have hope
22:40that we going to wake up in the morning.
22:43Hope is just another form of branch of
22:48faith.
22:50I have to believe that there is a higher
22:53power than man. I have to believe that
22:57somehow it all started
23:00before man was ever here.
23:04And
23:06from the age of four,
23:09my mother believed in the Bible. She
23:12believed in Jesus. And she always
23:16instilled in me that God sit high but he
23:20looks low. He will destroy but yet he
23:22will defend. that God have no respect of
23:25a person. Whatever you want,
23:29all you have to do is ask God. She
23:33didn't say God will grant you your wish
23:35every time. But she said whatever you
23:37want, take it to God in prayer and leave
23:40it there. And if it's for you,
23:44there's nothing nobody can do about it.
23:47And so when I got to prison, all of my
23:49mother luggage that she had dropped to
23:52me from the age of four all the way up
23:55to the age of 29 came into play. It was
23:58as though my mother knew
24:01that one day I would have to rely on her
24:03teaching as well as rely on uh reading
24:08the Bible for myself and believing in
24:09the Bible and believing that God do
24:11exist. And so when I sit there in that 5
24:15by seven, my mother brought me up never
24:17to question God, but I uh questioned him
24:20when I was in that 5x7. I wanted to know
24:22what I had done so bad that I deserved
24:27to be convicted
24:29and sinners to death. I wanted to know
24:32where was God when I was being lied on
24:35and prosecuted for a crime that he knew
24:39and I knew that I didn't commit. I
24:42wanted to know why have you forsaken me?
24:46What did I do so bad that I deserve
24:49this?
24:51And if I'm going to be honest in which I
24:54am, I really said God didn't live here
24:57anymore. I didn't say I didn't believe
24:59in God. I didn't say I uh didn't love
25:03God. I was angry with God because who
25:06wants to be on death row for a crime
25:08they didn't commit? And I wanted to know
25:11if you have all this power, the way that
25:14I know you have this power, why you
25:16didn't allow the truth to come out.
25:20But then I realized something.
25:22My mother told me that God ways may not
25:25be my ways.
25:27You have to stand firm and believe that
25:30he will work it out. And every night I
25:33went to bed, not one time,
25:37and I mean not one time, did I ask God
25:40to free me. I thought if I asked God to
25:43free me, that would be the most selfish
25:46thing I could ever do.
25:48But I prayed the prayer of truth.
25:52And I said, "God, if it your will, allow
25:55the truth to come out."
25:57I
25:57mean, the the state of Alabama has never
26:00apologized. I mean, how do how did you f
26:03do you find your way to forgiveness?
26:06Well, forgiveness is, in my honest
26:08opinion, forgiveness is not about the
26:11state of Alabama. Forgiveness is about
26:14me. Uh, forgiveness is where I could go
26:18on and live uh the best life that I can
26:21live or I want people to realize that
26:23forgiveness is not a sign of weakness.
26:26Forgiveness is a sign of strength. Do
26:28you know the strength that you have to
26:30have to act and forgive people that did
26:34this deliberately had every intention of
26:38taking your life from you? Do you know
26:40the strength that it takes to say, "Hey,
26:43I forgive you." But what I've learned
26:47that I am stronger than I ever thought I
26:49was because I forgave some men that
26:53don't care what they did to me.
26:56And it takes strength to do that. No one
26:59in the state of Alabama have ever had
27:01the decency to say Mr. Hinton was sorry.
27:04Although I wasn't even here. I was not a
27:07part of this. But as I came on to be a
27:10part of this, I want to a personal
27:12apologize to you for the mistakes that
27:14we made. But they haven't done that. And
27:16so I have to go on with my life as best
27:19as I can. And I have to be the bigger
27:23person. I have to go on and forgive
27:26them. And I pray that one day before
27:29they meet they maker, they would have
27:31the good sense to ask for forgiveness.
27:33They don't never have to ask me. But as
27:35a person of faith, a person that love
27:38people, a person that have compassion
27:40for another human being, I have to
27:42forgive. I have no choice. And so that
27:45forgiveness that I have forgave them, it
27:48allow me to wake up every morning with a
27:51smile on my face. That forgiveness
27:54allowed me to wake up and say, "Hey,
27:56today is going to be a beautiful day."
28:00We we have just like two minutes maybe,
28:02but I did want to ask you think back and
28:06you think about uh criminal justice
28:08reform, are there is there any change
28:12that would have made a significant
28:14difference in your experience?
28:18Oh yes. I I you know I think we have a
28:20system as I said that if you don't have
28:24the money to hide decent defense
28:27uh 99.9% of the time you will be found
28:30guilty especially if you born an
28:33Africanamean
28:34male
28:36um I looks back and I think that we have
28:39a system that need
28:42changes
28:43um there are those who would have you to
28:45believe that the system is broken I'm
28:48here today to tell you that the system
28:49is not broken. The system is working
28:52exactly the way it was designed to work.
28:55You would have those who tell you that
28:57we are dealing with mass incarceration.
28:59We are not dealing with mass
29:00incarceration. We are dealing with a new
29:02form of slavery. And that form is to put
29:06as many
29:08men of color in the prison system as it
29:12can. And so for me to sit here and say
29:15that everything is okay is I'm not going
29:17to do that. Uh what would have made a
29:19different is that if I could have had
29:22the equal just initiative on day one of
29:26my trial.
29:28And so there's an old saying in America,
29:31you get what you pay for. I didn't have
29:34the money to pay for an attorney and I
29:36didn't get an attorney. I got somebody
29:38that made it legal and got sentenced to
29:42death.
29:43And here I am 37 years later.
29:46That attorney have never reached out and
29:48said, "Mr. Hinton, I'm sorry I didn't
29:50give you my best." The state of Alabama
29:53have not said, "Mr. Hinton, do you need
29:55to see a psychiatry or psychologist?" It
29:57is on us. I have to deal with that
30:00nightmare every day of my life. But by
30:03the grace of God, I try every day to put
30:07one foot forward, to try to be light
30:10where there's darkness, to try to be
30:12understanding where there's confusion. I
30:15try to be love where there's hate. And I
30:18try to my best every day to show
30:21compassion to others. And so, uh, it is
30:25what it is. It's not the perfect, but
30:28I'm trying my best to rally up the
30:31truth. And when I say the truth, I'm
30:33trying to rally the good people of
30:35America and say, "Hey, we are better
30:37than this. We need to come together and
30:40have an open and honest conversation
30:42about race in America." And perhaps
30:46we can solve a lot of problems if we
30:49have the courage to have an opening on
30:52this conversation. And so I get up every
30:55morning, I try to be a light for young
30:56people. I try my best to make this
31:00system what I really believe it was
31:03created to be and that that all men are
31:05created equal regardless under the law.
31:09But I know for a fact that every day
31:11men's of color go to prison that haven't
31:15done anything.
31:17And so I have the ability to speak to
31:20thousands of them and I'm trying my best
31:23to use my voice and my situation to
31:26enlighten people. And I hope that
31:29whoever watch whoever read this
31:31interview, it would change their heart
31:35and say, "Hey, we do need to fix this
31:38system."
31:40Mr. Hen, thank you so much for being
31:42with us today. The name of the book once
31:45again is The Sun Does Shine
31:47and make sure you reach run out and get
31:49it. Get a copy.
31:53Thank you so much.
31:55We are out of time, but thank you all so
31:58much for joining me. And if you'd like
32:00to um see what's coming up on Washington
32:03Post Live, please go to
32:05washingtonpostlive.com
32:06to register for upcoming programs. I'm
32:09Robin Gavon and once again, thank you
32:11for joining me.

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