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Wallach On Law Featuring Cynthia Orr & Christopher Ochoa — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:02wallak on law examines criminal cases
0:04and criminal justice and asks the
0:06question we are tough on crime but is
0:08that helping can we be smarter and make
0:10us safer you want answers I want the
0:12truth you can't handle the truth Ian
0:15Wallock is a criminal defense attorney
0:16and civil rights lawyer in Los Angeles
0:18and New York these cases have ranged
0:20from defense of the accused to
0:22prosecution of governments in their
0:24treatment of convicts he's a former Los
0:25Angeles Deputy public defender and a
0:27frequent contributor on legal issues to
0:29R and television shows Nationwide you're
0:32out of order you're out of order the
0:34whole trial is out of order need ack
0:37country our courts are the great
0:40levelers and our courts all men are
0:45created equal this is wallik onlaw
0:48here's your host Ian
0:52[Music]
0:53wallik hello everybody thank you and
0:55welcome to this week's edition of wallik
0:57on law I'm your host Ian wallik hello to
1:00our new listeners and new territories
1:01very thankful that you are U on board to
1:04spend a little time joining us and
1:05listening to this conversation and
1:07today's conversation is about
1:09exoneration and to understand
1:11exoneration we're going to be speaking
1:12with uh with two uh very special guests
1:14our first is Cynthia or now Cynthia or
1:17is one of the most accomplished criminal
1:19defense attorneys in in the country and
1:21and she's going to come on and she's
1:22going to talk about some of the hurdles
1:24and the roadblocks and the randomness
1:26that can take place on the road to
1:28exoneration and then we're going to
1:29speak with Christopher AOA and Mr AOA is
1:32an exore and his ex his situation is
1:36it's Unique it not actually not so much
1:38unique his his conviction was the
1:40product of a forced cor confession and
1:43we're going to talk about what it takes
1:44to make someone uh confess to something
1:46that they did not do and how he was able
1:48to uh to be one of the rare few
1:51individuals who gets their uh
1:53convictions uh examined and then
1:55ultimately uh overturned and exonerated
1:58but first let's talk about some legal
1:59news in Annapolis Maryland a detective
2:02accused of murder during an incident of
2:04road road rage has been acquitted now
2:06this was a very racially charged trial
2:08the defendant uh Joseph Walker he was
2:11black detective Walker he was black and
2:13the decedent Joseph Harvey Jr was white
2:15there was multiple claims of
2:16prosecutorial misconduct uh throughout
2:19uh both the grand jury proceedings and
2:21the trial on this matter and it
2:22concerned the withholding of Brady
2:23evidence now this is evidence that can
2:25that the prosecutor is supposed to put
2:27forward or turn over because it's
2:29favorable to the defense and and that
2:31certainly didn't happen during the grand
2:32jury proceedings here almost didn't
2:34happen at trial until the uh defense
2:37Council was able to to to learn of it
2:39independently and have it be be court
2:40ordered well the jury got the case and
2:42after about 6 hours of deliberation
2:44detective Walker was acquitted on all
2:46counts and he was represented in that
2:48matter by by Charles klette and Mr
2:50klette was a guest on the show before he
2:52came on to sort of talk about a change
2:54in Department of Justice policy that
2:55relates to the recording of of witness
2:57interviews and that's going to come into
2:59play during our conversation later today
3:01with with Mr AOA but I want to tell you
3:03I once did a trial with Mr klet and he's
3:05a great attorney but but during closing
3:08argument the audience of the courtroom
3:10became filled with officers who had
3:12worked on the case you know everyone
3:13came in at the DA's order who had worked
3:16on the case to just to just sit in the
3:17pews while we did our closing arguments
3:19and this was clearly done uh to to
3:21impact the jury I objected but it's a
3:23public forum my objection was overruled
3:25in detective Walker's trial during trial
3:28and closing argument the audience was
3:29filled with fellow officers of detective
3:32Walker and and and supporters of the
3:35defense now who was in the audience is
3:37not supposed to effect of jury's thought
3:38processes but it does and prosecutors
3:41have known this and used it as a tool
3:42for years and those caught up uh in the
3:44criminal justice system need to be aware
3:46of it and and if they can uh use it to
3:48their benefit as well now Arizona just
3:50had the fourth botched execution of 2014
3:54the execution of Joseph rwood took over
3:562 hours Arizona's attorney general has
3:59issued a temporary halt on the practice
4:01the Mr Wood's attorneys claimed that he
4:03received 15 times the standard dosage of
4:06a painkiller and a sedative the United
4:08States Attorney General Eric Holder has
4:10now called for disclosure of the
4:12contents of these death cocktails these
4:14uh combinations of medicines that are
4:16used uh in these proed uh in these
4:18executions but I don't think this is
4:19going to happen because disclosing a
4:21cocktail recipe could lead to
4:23discovering the identity of the Doctor
4:24Who prescribed the medications that are
4:26inside of it and the American Medical
4:28Association and the American board Board
4:29of anesthesiology condemn a physician's
4:32involvement in execution and it can be a
4:35a basis to revoke their license so
4:37States respond by passing laws and
4:38enacting measures that hide the identity
4:40of doctors that perform these procedures
4:42so they can keep their licenses and go
4:44you know go on and treat other patients
4:46that just to be clear that means that
4:48govern governments uh and States help
4:51licensed professionals hide their
4:52identities from their licensing agencies
4:55so they can violate that licensing
4:56agency's rules that's kind of like if
4:59you were to imagine hiring a lawyer to
5:00teach a witness how to perger himself
5:03effectively on the stand but hiding that
5:05fact so that lawyer could still go out
5:07there in practice when clearly uh they
5:09should not and lastly news I got to talk
5:11a little bit more recap on this Manasses
5:13warrant I don't know if you've been
5:14following this uh uh the backstory is a
5:1717-year-old boy and his 15 year old
5:19girlfriend were sending each other
5:21pictures of of their of the private
5:23parts and a parent of the girl found the
5:25phone and one of the boy punished and uh
5:28filled a report the boy was pun but he
5:30was charged with a first possession of
5:33child pornography for having the picture
5:35and second manufacturing child
5:37pornography for taking a pictures of of
5:39of of himself and as you as you know
5:41these charges have absolutely horrific
5:44uh life consequences uh he was stripped
5:46his private parts were photographed and
5:48then the da the day of the hearing the
5:50the juvenile trial the da told the
5:52lawyer that unless he plad guilty the da
5:54was going to execute a warrant the
5:55officers were going to execute a warrant
5:57that would force this boy to be taken to
5:58the hospital to have his privates
6:00injected to create a state of arousal so
6:02they could do another round of
6:03photographs that they were going to use
6:05as evidence in the trial now the lawyer
6:07freaked out they told the press the
6:08Press inquired the Manasses Police
6:10Department released a statement stating
6:11no no no no no we would never authorize
6:13such an intrusive practice but didn't
6:15expressively denied doing so and then
6:17later uh journalism helped prove that
6:20this thing had actually happened it it
6:22did happen they acknowledged it that
6:23that had happened uh the practice was
6:25caught the practice was stopped at least
6:27for now but let's talk about at least
6:29five reason
6:30why this is all just so messed up I mean
6:33first of all child porn statutes are
6:34designed to protect against a different
6:37infinitely more Insidious much more
6:38heinous evil uh sending a a text message
6:42with a picture of yourself when you're
6:43under the age of 18 does not render one
6:45in my opinion or most people's opinion
6:47for that matter a child pornographer
6:50second the Manasses Police Department
6:51issued a public statement that that
6:54essentially denied that they got this
6:56warrant when they had okay and this this
6:58this false release of misinformation
7:00maybe they can say you know rely on a
7:01grammar trick or whatever this
7:02completely undermines the public trust
7:05third in the name of fight of of
7:07fighting child porn officials wanted to
7:10make child porn that's so disturbing
7:14fourth no one accused of a crime should
7:16be forced as part of an investigation to
7:19experience a far greater injury than
7:21they are alleged to have caused and
7:23fifth the Manasses Police Department
7:24lied the da and the officers who sought
7:27the warrant well they got caught there's
7:29a judge out there that actually signed
7:30this warrant and guess what's going to
7:32happen to these people in these agencies
7:33guess what's going to happen to them
7:34nothing absolutely nothing they're still
7:37going to keep their jobs in Juvenile
7:38Justice determining the the fate and the
7:41futures of children and simply put that
7:43is one big
7:46mess okay so we are welcoming to the
7:48show in order to sort of uh understand
7:50the process and and some of the hurdles
7:52of exoneration uh Cynthia or and and
7:55Council or has an absolutely Stellar
7:58reputation she's a partner in The Firm
8:00of Goldstein Goldstein and hilly in San
8:01Antonio she's a certified criminal law
8:04specialist in both criminal law and in
8:06criminal appell law she's a past
8:08president of the National Association of
8:10criminal defense lawyers an organization
8:12I am proud to be a member of she
8:13co-founded the Texas innocent network
8:16but I I could go on but I want to
8:17mention two accolades for which she was
8:19recognized just this past month this
8:21year she received the highest award
8:24offered by the nacdl it's the Robert
8:25Heeney award and if you were to still
8:27down it's what it's for at its essence
8:29is basically for being the the the the
8:31best person ever it's it's it's given to
8:34the person who embodies the principles
8:35of the organization to their to that to
8:37that highest extent and she was she was
8:38the Honore this year and she's also
8:40chair-elect to the criminal justice
8:41section of the American Bar Association
8:43this year um missor welcome to the show
8:47IAM thank you for inviting me on it's a
8:50pleasure to talk to you oh it's it's
8:52it's I'm really excited to have you here
8:53but listen it's sort of a somber uh
8:55conversation um today we're going to be
8:58talking to uh to you and and to an Exon
9:01and we're going to be talking about the
9:02the you know exoneration and I think
9:04what people who aren't involved in the
9:06legal process some of their questions
9:09people think it's it's an easy process
9:11you know they think okay someone claims
9:13they're innocent it's easy to prove it
9:16and and and they can walk out the door
9:18um and I'm pretty sure right that's not
9:20an accurate con I could you know you and
9:22I know differently and you know I think
9:25what most people don't realize is what a
9:26crapshoot it is for someone who's
9:29innocent to even get their case heard or
9:32investigated or uh defended by uh a
9:36criminal defense lawyer um or the
9:39Innocence Project or nice civil lawyers
9:42who often uh give their uh proon hours
9:45to help in these Cas and just to clarify
9:47I think most people know what what prono
9:49is but that's just what a lawyer decides
9:51to work uh you know for for no money
9:53because they believe there's there's
9:54some injustice and and and they want to
9:56vest their time so I didn't mean to cut
9:58you off one of the proudest traditions
10:01of the criminal defense profession I'm
10:02not aware of many other professions that
10:05engage in that kind of work to improve
10:07the system of justice but that's Ian is
10:10where that crapshoot comes in and by
10:11that I mean uh people that are lucky
10:14enough to have their cases worked on are
10:17just the luck of the draw uh it depends
10:19on whether one of these lawyers uh has
10:22an open slot um they're um scheduled to
10:26do some free work uh on one of these
10:29cases when the request comes in or
10:32whether it's caught the eye of the
10:34Innocence Project or whether a lawyer um
10:37has the inclination to assist when
10:39they're called on to help so I just
10:42can't I worry about the numbers of
10:44people that never we never hear about
10:47sure and I guess the individual I mean
10:50it's it's frequent in my experience that
10:51individuals who are charged with crimes
10:53are able to be uh manipulated more
10:55easily by the system are are individuals
10:57who who don't really have skills as far
10:59as writing or or communicating or or
11:02expressing their ideas and it seems like
11:04any understanding right of of what the
11:06process required yeah so in in that
11:09situation those individuals it's it's
11:11highly unlikely that someone's going to
11:12be like that it's highly unlikely that
11:14anybody's going to be able to such a
11:16small percentage of people are going to
11:17be able to get to you but but but um
11:21let's imagine that that or take an
11:23example where one person is one of these
11:26very uh fortunate individuals and
11:28fortunate is a an odd word to use for
11:30someone who's uh been convicted of
11:32something that they haven't done but but
11:33they're able to actually get their
11:35letter uh to you on your desk during a
11:38period when you are actually have the
11:40time and are willing to give your own
11:41your own proon time your own free time
11:44uh to examine a claim of of innocence
11:46and you read the letter what would your
11:48next step
11:49be well I would of course go meet them
11:52I've talked would talk to all their
11:54lawyers I'd examine what the records
11:56revealed and then I would start drilling
11:58down and seeing what the rest of the
12:00story is because there's always the rest
12:03of the story when someone's wrongly
12:05convicted whether it's a a CO a
12:07confession a jail house snitch telling a
12:11story to reduce their own uh criminal
12:14exposure uh a falsified uh science dry
12:18labbing where they just scientists make
12:21up results that don't really what do you
12:23mean I'm sorry when you use the word dry
12:25labbing what are you referring to I'm
12:28talking about all safe lies that is
12:30someone types up a report as if they've
12:32done testing when they haven't done any
12:35and and so the term dry labbing means
12:36there hasn't been any labbing at all and
12:39so they just make it up to fit the
12:41police Theory um pretty common and sad
12:44that we have a name for it because it's
12:47become so common sure but there's any
12:49any number of things that that have led
12:51to the the false conviction sometimes
12:53really bad defense lawyering as well uh
12:56and um then helping to make sure that
13:00sees the light of day hoping that you
13:02get the court that will listen to it and
13:04that you're not so far along in the
13:06proceedings where you can't raise the
13:09claims uh and let me stop you right
13:12there is is I mean could there be a time
13:14legally where uh even though there might
13:17be some like Rock Solid indisputable
13:19Newfound evidence of of Innocence an
13:22attorney was precluded or or should
13:24shouldn't there always be some legal
13:26vehicle you know even though all the
13:28Appel appeals are are you know the
13:29processes are exhausted there has to be
13:31there isn't there always some
13:33way to to reopen a case there's so too
13:36so terribly shocking things that is one
13:40um in the vast majority of jurisdictions
13:43uh the law does not recognize that
13:45innocence get you relief and that you
13:47need to have also some uh wrong uh and
13:53and and constitutional wrong in how your
13:56trial was conducted or the proceeding
13:58was conducted didn't or you may have
14:00been Duty bound to have discovered this
14:03information sooner and because you
14:04didn't you're just out of luck so we've
14:07got that legal impediment that the law
14:09doesn't recognize that innocence is
14:11somehow a legal claim that gets you
14:13opens up the jailhouse doors and the
14:15Supreme Court's written about that and
14:17and what a terrible thing that is but
14:19the other thing that stands as a natural
14:22impediment is and what I find most
14:24frustrating and mystifying is that
14:27prosecutors tend to stick by these
14:29convictions uh after it becomes really
14:31evident to them that they ought to help
14:33you overcome these procedural hurdles
14:36whatever they might do and unlocke the
14:38jailhouse doors and let the innocent
14:40person go free it's um always uh
14:44surprised me uh but I've uh you very
14:48rarely encoun encounter an enlightened
14:51prosecutor um although they're out there
14:53that says oh my gosh this is a terrible
14:55wrong let's fix it that I mean that it's
14:57it's shocking I know here we have
14:59there's at least one judge I know who's
15:00a former prosecutor who actually devotes
15:03a fair amount of his time keeping in
15:04touch with people who he sent Behind
15:05Bars to find out if he wants to make you
15:07know applications for their you know uh
15:09early release he's it's pretty it's it's
15:11judge Mitchell and but but they are few
15:13and far between um why do you think that
15:16is why why would a prosecutor or why
15:19would would a bench officer why would a
15:21judge be averse to potentially releasing
15:24someone who's doing time for a crime
15:26they didn't commit I think because uh
15:29these disenfranchised people have become
15:31politicized it's you know oh boy I want
15:33to be known for unlocking the jailhouse
15:36door I want to be known for being soft
15:37on crime that doesn't get these District
15:40Attorneys elected or the judges elected
15:42in fact there's this wave of of anti- um
15:46fairness sentiment that's used unfairly
15:49to try and defeat fair-minded people
15:51from taking the bench or becoming
15:53prosecutors uh elected prosecutors so um
15:57instead of looking at what fair and just
16:00as the professionals that we are a lot
16:02of these folks are pressured into oh
16:04I've got to think about what this means
16:06for my poll numbers my election numbers
16:08my popularity and I just simply can't be
16:11a part of I've often I've often thought
16:13I've often thought out here that that a
16:15lot of people I know go into I mean I I
16:17know some wonderful people who are
16:18prosecutors I know some uh wonderful
16:20criminal defense attorneys who are
16:22former prosecutors but there's certainly
16:24a sentiment if I can show a prosecutor
16:26that that that that my client didn't do
16:28the crime that he's accused of the one's
16:31even said well we're not in the business
16:32of dismissing cases uh I've been told
16:34that uh you know well he he he must have
16:36done something similar and there seems
16:38to be such an an angry mindset imposed
16:41upon individuals who are accused of
16:43something and a lot of that I I fear
16:45stems from from people who decide to
16:47become prosecutors and I don't know how
16:49to change it it's probably a subject for
16:51we're told we're told not to care about
16:53these people right they they've lost
16:55credibility the instant they're charged
16:57uh and then we you know it's sort of
17:00like well let's all Break The Rules
17:01together to get this conviction and then
17:04as Brady violations that is undisclosed
17:07favorable evidence unfolds or these
17:09injustices come about it's the rare case
17:12where the prosecutor will say as in
17:14Senator Ted stens case uh I'm sorry we
17:18really can't stand by this conviction
17:19any longer we need to overturn it turn
17:22it uh but you know at that point the
17:24damage is done or uh when a judge says
17:27I'm going to call upon an investigation
17:29of this process and we're going to
17:31correct wrong uh the problem is there
17:33haven't been consequences when
17:35prosecutors have done this and I think
17:38that you know our system needs to temper
17:40prosecutorial discretion and uh
17:44prosecutorial wrongdoing that currently
17:46is immunized uh by you know having some
17:50consequences apply when when people have
17:52acted wrongly and I think incentive
17:55we're beginning to see that just a
17:56little bit I mean I mean and and you
17:58were you were involved D to that in some
18:00degree as regards the the Michael Morton
18:03trial and the hiding of evidence that
18:05that led it led to his conviction and
18:06and sadly this is the only example of
18:09this that I know of but where the first
18:11time in history that a prosecutor spent
18:13any time in jail for uh intentionally uh
18:17hiding favorable evidence in the case
18:19that wrongly caused an innocent man to
18:21go to prison uh I hope it's not the last
18:23time but I hope it has is enough of an
18:26impact that'll make prosecutor
18:29decide I I'm a professional I love my
18:31law license um I'm not going to do that
18:33kind of misconduct sure well listen if
18:35if you're just joining us right now this
18:37is uh wallak on law Our Guest is is
18:38Cynthia or she's with us today
18:40discussing uh exonerations now now you
18:43you've worked with uh with exies and
18:45both before they've been exonerated and
18:48after and and I I imagine that for some
18:50of the same reasons that might have led
18:51you in into the field of criminal
18:53defense you you've gotten to know these
18:54people both during their periods of
18:56incarceration and afterwards is is that
18:58fair to assume
18:59sure um what what skill sets were made
19:03available by the state to to help
19:06someone who's been wrongly convicted for
19:08a period of time uh re-enter into
19:11society are what what nothing's done
19:14nothing's done to help them reenter into
19:16society um not when they're guilty and
19:19serve their time or when they're
19:21exonerated and and they're suddenly
19:22released they're sort of you know uh
19:25like rip Ben Winkle tossed into uh
19:29modern society without having had uh any
19:32assistance to adapt and uh some do very
19:35well and some do very poorly you know I
19:38I have a proon case I I I have one case
19:40that that I've been working on uh
19:42fortunately with the New York Innocence
19:43Project and it it deals with some some
19:46conduct that exonorees uh because a lot
19:49of them end up with with with
19:51substantial either substance abuse or
19:52other problems afterwards and they say
19:55it's it's one of the clearest examples
19:57of of post-traumatic stress order right
19:59that absolutely what I was thinking yep
20:01you're right Ian and and and there are
20:03zero skill sets that that are given and
20:06and and and when I was talking to some
20:07of the social workers over there they
20:09said normally what the pattern is is
20:10these people come out they know they're
20:12well received because of a good social
20:13conscience you know in the community but
20:16they can't you know they can't get jobs
20:17they they uh and if they if they they
20:20may as as many people do you know
20:21self-medicate turn to alcohol turn turn
20:23to something else and and it's it's it's
20:26an absolutely disastrous problem coupled
20:28with the fact that if that what do you
20:31how how do you throw somebody back in
20:32jail if the reason that they're not
20:34going along with the rules of society is
20:36society's problem it's well these people
20:38were were ill equipped in two respects
20:41when they started down that road one uh
20:43many of them trust the system and think
20:45well I'm innocent so I'll be acquitted
20:47and they don't expect the sort of unfair
20:50prejudicial sort of process they go
20:52through where it's presumed they're
20:54guilty there really isn't a presumption
20:56of innocence jurors really don't do
20:58their jobs to to protect them against
20:59the the strong strength of the
21:01government uh and equip them if the
21:03evidence is not there uh and and uh the
21:07second thing is many of them are just
21:08ill equipped just generally they're not
21:11uh intelligent they're not um well
21:14represented um they're uh sometimes
21:17young um makes them easy targets police
21:21skills they are they are and uh but so
21:24as Michael Mortin said you know where I
21:27go you go uh this could happen to you
21:30and we do need to work harder to make
21:32sure it doesn't and it's not letting it
21:34rest on the current Russian Roulette
21:36system system of oh well this one's
21:38going to get reviewed because Cynthia
21:41and Jerry have time to work on it or
21:43Barry sure project can do it or or or
21:46John reallyy civil lawyers willing to
21:48become involved that's just not uh
21:51anything that we can be proud of and say
21:53hey the system works here it it doesn't
21:55it's broken uh and we need to do
21:57something more sustain
22:00about right
22:02now when when you talk about when you
22:04talk about need to do something systemic
22:05I mean there's over 200 ex exonerations
22:07Now effectuated by Innocence Project
22:09that's that's over 200 individuals who
22:11were locked up that that that what I
22:13don't think people realize is that also
22:14means that that individuals who
22:16committed over 200 heinous crimes were
22:19were allowed to to go free uh I think
22:23that's right and kill and kill and hurt
22:25again and it's a public safety issue
22:27it's it's not not a bleeding heart
22:29liberal issue we we really need to get
22:31it right uh not because it's morally
22:35right alone but because we we need to
22:38make sure that folks that are dangerous
22:40um don't get to go kill again and we
22:42know in Michael Morton's case that there
22:44was a cold case with uh um Mark Allen
22:48Norwood's DNA there at the scene uh he's
22:51the fellow who's convicted ultimately of
22:54really killing Christine Morton uh and
22:56his DNA was at the scene of another
22:58woman who was pledging to death with the
23:00young child so uh it's it's so important
23:04even for law enforcement that instead of
23:06just closing kisses we we try and get it
23:08right yeah we try to get it right the
23:10whole way around right and be open be
23:12open instead of retool our case uh when
23:15there's evidence that someone's innocent
23:18I I I think one problem that we're
23:19seeing is is uh you know is coerced
23:21confessions a lot of people say you know
23:23no one's ever going to confess to to you
23:25know a crime they didn't do especially a
23:26heinous crime uh and I I don't think and
23:29and we're going to speak to Mr AO a
23:30little bit but I don't think people
23:32really understand that it's not a
23:34question of you know what kind of person
23:36would coni would would would confess to
23:38a crime they they didn't do but really a
23:40question of what can happen to a person
23:42to make them confess right they're
23:44subject to really professional uh and
23:47and scientifically proven um skills that
23:51are used to get people to say what you
23:53want them to say you can go home after
23:54you say this we'll let you you know
23:56leave our presence we'll just say it and
23:59we'll you know things will go your way
24:01and uh they think well I'm fine I'm with
24:04the police officer I can trust if they
24:07say get minding offic as we know are
24:10allowed to lie I understand that they're
24:12allowed to lie and and and I mean that
24:14may be troubling that that's that's
24:16that's separate what really frustrates
24:17what I I'm shocked by when I speak when
24:19I speak with these individuals is uh you
24:21know how they'll stop and restart a
24:23recorded coerced confession after
24:25someone's beaten if the facts aren't
24:26right and they're like no no no no no
24:28okay say it again but this time the room
24:30was blue say it again this time the room
24:31is red and it seems to me that somewhere
24:33in that process they should think hey
24:35wait a second he doesn't
24:37know if I'm needing to tell him what the
24:40facts are I'm guessing that I believe he
24:43doesn't know what they are uh well you
24:46think so but a law professor who used to
24:48teach at the police academy told me one
24:50time that the we we we make the wrong
24:52assumption when we think police are
24:54there to solve cases they aren't they're
24:56there to close cases sure as soon as
24:59they can jam that round peg into that
25:01square hole they're done they're done
25:03and they can go home and so I think
25:04that's the phenomena that you're talking
25:06well I would add to it I think I think
25:08they they pretty much have have you know
25:10uh they tend to PE people I mean I know
25:12some very brilliant officers but but you
25:14know higher education's not not a
25:15requirement uh there there people who
25:17tend a lot of L that I know are people
25:19who who who want who want quick answers
25:22and they also are part of their job is
25:24the comfort in getting people to say
25:27what what they want them to to say and
25:29it's it's a dangerous mix especially
25:31when it comes to when it comes to
25:33confessions um I think some of it has to
25:35come with their training I think a lot
25:37of well-meaning officers just get it
25:40wrong I you know I I I don't think you
25:42know law enforcement officers are stupid
25:45or or ill intentioned but I think it's a
25:47part of culture and they look at the
25:48rest of the world with really jaist eyes
25:51it's a matter of we're going to be
25:52patient until we can Hammer this out of
25:54this lying suspect instead of thinking
25:57wait a minute he he really doesn't know
25:59this stuff right right right well
26:01actually and I want to talk to you about
26:02that if you're just joining us this is
26:03wall on Law and our guest today is
26:05Cynthia or we're discussing exonerations
26:07and and um as as you know um I think it
26:09was in July it went into effect but
26:11there was a May uh Department of Justice
26:13policy memo that that seems to be part
26:16of Eric holder's efforts to sort of
26:18change part of the pro uh part of the
26:20process and this was the policy membo
26:23mandating not mandating urging that that
26:25suspect interviews uh be recorded
26:28um I know that that's a that's that's a
26:31you know it's a new memo and it only
26:32says you know when practical and it has
26:34lots of outs but that's certainly still
26:36isn't the the the the policy or or and
26:39rarely is the practice out out here in
26:41California um is it the practice in
26:44Texas yet we're very lucky in that it
26:47has been enactive Fant into law in state
26:50court and you know it's really been
26:52wonderful although you know we don't we
26:54the question is when does the recording
26:56start that's always helpful that M You
26:58Know It uh we're not having an interview
27:01begin in the police car or at the scene
27:05before we get someone in where to the
27:06interview room uh but we actually have
27:09an exclusionary rule that would exclud
27:12exclude statements if they're not
27:14recorded uh and it works really well
27:17that's that's fantastic I mean how did
27:19that I'd love to know how that came
27:20about because we we certainly don't have
27:22that here and we could we really need it
27:25um well we had a very odd um uh
27:29bedfellow in helping that go by and that
27:31was uh Barbara hervey who's one of our
27:34justices on the Court of Criminal
27:36Appeals who's very law in order um she
27:39was one of the people who promoted it
27:41because she saw it as helpful to law
27:43enforcement because it
27:45is it is it really is that's why I mean
27:49it it gives them it gives them you
27:51know so it's it it gives them
27:53substantive a affirmation of of the
27:56information that they're trying to to
27:58put forward so I've never really
28:00understood why the FBI had this policy
28:02against recording statements that that
28:05just never made much sense to me but you
28:07know you and I have encountered as
28:09defense lawyers how uh the the statement
28:13is in the eye of the beholder and often
28:15times things that happen much
28:17differently are recorded in it a
28:20different way by someone that looks at
28:23the statement from the perception of
28:24someone who assumes someone's minimizing
28:26or lying or um or who they think you
28:29know they're looking for them to say
28:30certain things one thing one thing I
28:32learned from uh about about Mr aoa's
28:35case that I was I was so shocking and
28:37I'd love you to comment on it if you can
28:38in the few minutes that we have is that
28:40there was a um you know a separate a
28:42separate confession for the uh for the
28:44individual who actually committed the
28:46crime and it was uh coupled and was able
28:48to be confirmed with with with DNA and
28:50and the the law enforcement response was
28:52not you know to to liberate him but but
28:56rather to try to again Co him to make a
29:00confession linking him to the actual
29:02killer and I wonder how much of that is
29:05embarrassment and covering their own uh
29:08misconduct and how much of it was really
29:10thinking that they were linked but you
29:12know that's the reaction whenever you
29:13provide evidence of Innocence it's not
29:15just in the context of coerced
29:17confessions the first reaction of a
29:19prosecutor is I'm going to retool my
29:21case to allow for this part of the story
29:23to fit into it rather than saying oops
29:25there's something wrong here exactly
29:27right um it's it's stunning to me too it
29:30happens every time and I I really can't
29:33uh pretend to understand enough to
29:35explain the phenomenon other than at
29:37this point we're dealing with
29:38adversaries and and folks who are
29:40fighting to win something a contest
29:43instead of people who really are looking
29:46at my job is not only to represent law
29:50enforcement but also to represent the
29:52citizen accused and to make sure we
29:54achieve Justice I don't think that job
29:57is taken serious seriously enough not at
29:59any stage in the proceeding not at any
30:01place or anywhere where our system of
30:04justice places that Duty upon
30:06prosecutors and law enforcements and I
30:09think it's time that we start holding
30:11people accountable for that part of
30:13their Duty as well well here here um I
30:16know I fully support that listen M cyia
30:18first of all congratulations for your
30:20week and for for all the all the awards
30:22that you deserved also thank you for uh
30:24you know for giving your time and
30:25helping us sort of understand this
30:26process and and and you know because the
30:28more we talk about it hopefully we can
30:30we can bring about we can bring about
30:31some change thank you thanks thanks so
30:33much for join us with your help and with
30:34your program Ian thank you so much if
30:37you want to learn uh more about Miss or
30:39uh well first of all you can Google her
30:40her name is going to pop up absolutely
30:42uh everywhere you can read about just
30:44more recent uh work of hers in the
30:46Cameron Todd Willingham case which is
30:47troubling because as you will find out
30:49Mr Willingham might have been exonerated
30:51if uh had not been executed uh but you
30:54can also her website uh www. GG DH
30:58and they're in San Antonio Texas uh and
31:01it's uh just an absolute honor it was an
31:03absolute honor to have her to have her
31:04on the show now Christopher choa is an
31:06Exon and his story is exceptionally
31:09compelling uh he was convicted of the uh
31:12of the rape and murder of a woman named
31:14Nancy the priest and he was um and he
31:16had no involvement whatsoever with the
31:18crime what what we're going to learn and
31:20what's what's so troubling in his
31:22conviction was uh largely the result of
31:24of a forced and coerced confession this
31:27is an issue that's been
31:28uh very much in the news lately as you
31:30guys know as a result of some changes in
31:33Department of Justice uh policy but he's
31:35going to give us sort of his personal uh
31:36experience and it's very kind of him to
31:38join us and tell us uh what what that
31:41means now in October 1988 a 20-year-old
31:44woman named Nancy de PRI was working
31:46alone at a Pizza Hut and and she was
31:47raped and she was murdered and days
31:49later uh Mr AOA uh and another man named
31:54Mr damger were were arrested uh in
31:56connection with that investigation Mr
31:59AOA uh thank you for being on our show
32:01so much oh you're welcome my pleasure so
32:06I know it's going to be kind of sticky I
32:07mean kind of kind of difficult for you
32:09to to talk about it I'm really thankful
32:11that you're here but but when did you
32:13first learn that you had been arrested
32:16uh for
32:18murder um you know I uh it's
32:23pretty this murder and rape of this
32:26young woman happened every of the local
32:28Pizza Huts in Austin Texas at that time
32:32me and my roommate were working at other
32:34Pizza Huts but essentially the Pizza Hut
32:38where the crime occurred it was closed
32:40for uh the crime scene investigation and
32:42all this kind of stuff when they
32:44reopened it uh my roommate was driving
32:47me back driving me back home from
32:49somewhere and he he were driving the the
32:53Pizza Hut where it happened was uh right
32:55on the way right off the interstate
32:58and uh he for some reason or another
33:00wanted to go see where the crime
33:02happened uh curiosity I guess teenager
33:05he's like 19 now was like 21 and you
33:08know like my attorney said that in
33:10itself is not a crime but the suspicion
33:12so so we go into he he insists I'm going
33:15the piz we go in there and he orders a
33:19uh a um a beer for both of us which
33:23uh he ordered it he was underage you
33:26know but bottom uh to make itot story
33:29short he we raise it he raises a toast
33:32to the the memory of the victim in the
33:35restaurant and then to me and itself I
33:37just we left shortly there after they
33:40had security guard posted there he asked
33:44my roommate starts asking questions of
33:46the you know and I guess that sort of
33:48triggered an amount of Suspicion when
33:51when when after were were were you uh
33:53were you arrested and and where were you
33:55taken when you were arrested uh you know
33:58uh I was uh uh I was picked up on a
34:03Friday mhm for questioning by uh and
34:07obviously the cops the police department
34:09said well we're going to question you
34:11about a
34:12burglary and I being a young kid I had
34:15never been in trouble before I assume
34:17burglary taking burglary and robbery to
34:19me same thing you're taking people stuff
34:21right so but at the time when they had
34:24tell me about the burger I said well
34:26because they had this crime that uh they
34:28had not solved MH
34:32um they had not solved uh so um it was
34:38uh it was pretty um so everybody all the
34:41Pizza Huts knew about all the employees
34:44we knew that there was UN Sol crime
34:46so in the back of my mind well when I
34:49asked the C so when they're taking me to
34:51the station ask him is this when when
34:54they said about the Bry well they took
34:56me they drove to the the the police
34:59station I said is this I'm just SED
35:03curios is this about the murder of the
35:05piz cut on you know the young woman and
35:09they said no it's not about that it's
35:10about a burglar well they it was about I
35:13was already a suspect at that time
35:15obviously police officers are allowed to
35:18lie to suspects or whatnot right you
35:22know so sure there there's no
35:23prohibition on that yeah so then uh um
35:28so guy the cops take me in and ask me a
35:30couple question about a Bry but all of a
35:32sudden within two minutes I'm being
35:34interrogated for this
35:36murder uh what was your what was your
35:39initial response I mean do you remember
35:41what was your initial emotional response
35:44like I said I don't know I mean I don't
35:47know nothing about it I mean I just I
35:49don't know and the and it would they
35:52send in the bad cop uh he was the first
35:55one to come in well what did he I
35:59apologize there were several officers
36:01when you say when you say you know the
36:02the the bad cop was he was he physically
36:05imposing was he uh vocally
36:08imposing all all of it physically
36:11imposing uh
36:14vocal um and he wasn't you know at that
36:18time I didn't know and he was playing a
36:20good cop there was a good cop back cop R
36:22like GV right but he comes at me and say
36:25what do you know about this crime and I
36:28don't know I said I don't know anything
36:29and then he says well why were you
36:31asking about the crime when our
36:34detectives came to pick you up for a
36:36burglary I ask you about a burglary well
36:39he's lying to me he so I just I said I
36:41was just curious uh and he says nobody's
36:44just curious you got to know something
36:46you know something and if you don't tell
36:47me what you know if somebody did it and
36:51and and they came and told you and you
36:52don't tell us we're going to charge you
36:54with capital murder and you get death p
36:56i mean right didn't take about 10 10
36:59minutes
37:01started yeah before they're telling you
37:03that that you're looking at the death
37:04penalty and life on death row um exactly
37:07yeah what what did you do I mean I mean
37:11how do how does anyone respond to
37:12information like that especially when
37:14there isn't yeah and I you know and and
37:17I told him well I I know what you said
37:19but there's nothing I can't tell there's
37:21nothing I know I don't know anything
37:22about well I don't I don't believe you I
37:25think you're hiding something and I'm
37:26GNA I'm GNA charge you I'm not going to
37:28P J I mean he he walked out of the room
37:31then the bad then the good cop Right
37:33comes in you know uh my partner's just a
37:37hoote head I can calm him down you know
37:39what and then this is this is what got
37:41me is that he said just tell us what you
37:44know and then you can go so I was 21 so
37:48okay at this point I had never been in
37:50trouble with Pro police department and
37:53we're always taught as kids in school
37:55the police department comes and tells us
37:57right all of us that we're there to help
37:59you we're there to protect you right so
38:02I was always in the assumption that
38:04that's what they they were there for it
38:06so you know there uh so the guy the good
38:10C said well when if you k a statement
38:12you can go and I like that started like
38:14wait a minute you're saying I can't
38:16leave so I I already I didn't I I
38:20already put it in my mind that I did not
38:22have three will leave although I did you
38:25know what I'm saying right but that
38:28didn't itself the respect I had for
38:29police officers that okay I don't and I
38:32didn't know I just don't know so he
38:34walked out and the bad cop walks here
38:36and it starts issuing more death penalty
38:38threats getting it put in my face how
38:41long how long did this process take was
38:43it a series of hours was it a series of
38:46days uh yeah it was the first one on a
38:48Friday was 11 10 11 hours
38:51some and did they did they tell you that
38:54they had a right you had a right to
38:55lawyer did they just sort of read it to
38:56you off of form or did they not mention
38:58it at all what well here's what happened
39:01and then so there in between shuffling
39:03and questioning me a female detective a
39:06spaned detective walked in and I thought
39:10to me my my she's a female and she
39:12should be more compassion and J these
39:15these guys so I asked do you think it's
39:18possible that I you get um an attorney
39:21right and she turned around and gave me
39:24the dirtiest book no you cannot have one
39:27officially officially
39:29charged well I've come to find out that
39:31I now what I know to my
39:34attorneys that's I invoked I already
39:37invoked Miranda now once I do that they
39:40should stopped they shouldn't even they
39:42kept on questioning it kept on it kept
39:44on this was certain on at at what
39:48point at what point after after the
39:50questioning how far they didn't just
39:53want you to to stand up and say you know
39:56I withdraw P of guilty they wanted you
39:58to actually participate in the
40:01prosecution of you and Mr danziger is
40:03that correct yes yes yes and that their
40:06whole angle was didn't Richard daniger
40:09tell you that that he getting your
40:11roommate did do did he do this I said no
40:14I don't know and I kept on because I
40:15didn't know but as time were on he
40:18showed me pictures of death row of the
40:20sou if you don't cooperate this is what
40:22you're going to where you're going to
40:23live the rest of your until you die
40:26you're not going to be able to hold your
40:27face family anymore because they don't
40:28that's not all low and death role and
40:31I'm going to make sure you're I'm there
40:32when they execute you you don't
40:33cooperate with us and and then one yeah
40:38when what else changed I mean I mean
40:41human will is strong but but eventually
40:43there comes a point where where anyone
40:45is going to crumble especially when
40:48facing yeah no especially when facing
40:50the forces of a government what what
40:52what how long were you when did you
40:54crumble and what made you crumble um I
40:56think was it was pretty as several hours
40:59into the interrogation I was just tired
41:02I wanted to go home I thought I couldn't
41:03go home and this and they was just kept
41:06on and but the the I was already tired
41:08exhausted I just wanted to get out of
41:10there but what triggered it triggered me
41:13so you know what just what do I have to
41:16do I just want to give me whatever they
41:18wanted me to say I I just wanted it done
41:21right cuz I was they there was one point
41:25the police the detective said you know
41:27what I am getting tired sick and tired
41:28of your
41:29BS I am going to just book you you've
41:33never been in in jail before I saw your
41:35record I'm gonna book you and throw you
41:37in there with the rest of the inmates
41:38where you'll be fresh meat for them so I
41:41to that to mean jail house R right right
41:44sure and uh and that is when I said you
41:47know what what do you want I just what
41:49do you want me to do just so that's when
41:51they that's when they invol that's when
41:53they read me with Miranda rights when I
41:54was ready to when I had already just
41:57said you know but basically I just they
42:00wanted me to say my Richard D was the
42:03one I did so bad cop pulls off the T
42:06typewriter he's has he's giving me
42:08leading questions or when you say
42:11leading questions what do you mean is he
42:14yeah is it well like you know kind of
42:16like uh okay when you went in the pizza
42:19this item was there right or something
42:21like that I okay yes it was that because
42:24I didn't know or uh that was the third
42:28question that was the third um that was
42:30a style that he did had three inter
42:33three three statements but that's the
42:35style like in the the first one he said
42:37well you're Richard D came and told you
42:40right that he he did this didn't he come
42:42brag about it and I would just repeat
42:44what he said and then he would type it
42:47that was the first confession on a
42:50Friday you know and then uh Friday and
42:52then I uh I thought I was going to be
42:54able to go home once I sign the you know
42:57signed that statement which he didn't
42:58inv was just putting all the blame on
43:00Richard but you know I just didn't know
43:03I have to I have to ask I mean I think I
43:06think what what you're saying is that
43:07your will was so beaten down that you
43:10actually believed that if you confessed
43:12to a murder you'd be let out the door is
43:14that yeah well yeah and I thought that
43:17okay I give him a statement it'll be all
43:18sorted out by the defense attorney and
43:20the
43:21prosecution it'll be sorted out because
43:23I the justice system is we're taught
43:26that that's what is supposed to do right
43:28people get accused they sort it out um
43:32but that didn't happen so uh and then
43:35they took me to go get give blood
43:37samples and all that and then they put
43:38me up at a hotel on the weekend after
43:40that first
43:41statement uh I called that's at that
43:43point when when I take put me in a hotel
43:46because they said we're afraid that
43:47Richard is gonna hurt you because you
43:49gave a statement so they told me not to
43:52see anybody not to talk to anybody so
43:54that I they out a room just room Serv
43:56was a
43:57at at the police department's expense
43:59all that stuff but at some point in that
44:02weekend Saturday I called my roommate I
44:04said you know what I think with my other
44:06roommate I had like two three roommate I
44:08think I'm GNA need an
44:10attorney so and then so because I hadn't
44:14I I had I didn't have contact my with my
44:16family actually so I was already
44:19arrested because that was my first when
44:21when they gave these these recordings to
44:23you um yeah this the these weren't
44:26recorded they weren't actually like
44:28Sound audio recordings right or they
44:31were typing first yeah the first one was
44:33typing but then they take me back on
44:35Monday they picked me up the police
44:37department says now we know and this is
44:39the dur reg now we know you're guilty
44:42because you called your roommate and you
44:44ask her for an attorney and only guilty
44:46people ask for an attorney so now for
44:48another 12 hours of questioning these
44:51were audio tape this second round of now
44:54they wanted me to give statements to
44:56affect the first statement in the
44:57morning and the death penalty was still
44:59there my mind was still mush I was in
45:02jail I had never been in there and so Mr
45:05Ooa here in in in the cases where we
45:07have with uh with coerced or forced uh
45:10confessions the the convicted party is
45:13usually exonerated in one of two ways
45:15and I know I know both those ways were
45:16were an issue in your in your case first
45:18is DNA DNA can come up and prove that
45:20somebody else was ultimately responsible
45:22the second is that the content of this
45:24person's confession doesn't have
45:26anything to do with facts there's it's
45:28it's it talks about a whole different
45:29group of people different places it just
45:30doesn't fit and you can tell that it was
45:32written by someone that wanted the
45:34content to fit the crime rather than
45:36someone who is literally investigating
45:38investigating the crime uh in your case
45:41did they make you go through different
45:43rounds of of recorded interviews to try
45:46to get and stop how do they how did they
45:49get the right recording there was uh two
45:52rounds uh the first one uh it was just
45:54men me that I was second profession they
45:57wanted I was on on on audio tape that I
45:59was a lookout that was pretty simple it
46:02was like from the day before but then
46:04they wanted F they now they wanted me to
46:06be inside the Pizza Hut and that one was
46:09being recorded but because I didn't know
46:11the facts they had to stop the tape and
46:13say wait a minute wasn't it this color
46:16and I was guessing and I had to one I
46:18would they would stop and rewind the
46:20tape then once they clarified it it
46:23would run then they would play were
46:25these were these audio tapes ever made
46:26of available to you or your defense
46:28Council in their entirety uh during the
46:30defense I I would not I could not answer
46:35that I the one thing I will say but the
46:37one thing I will say once that did they
46:40were having the the the the the third
46:43audio tape the second audio tape was
46:45they were having trouble because I
46:47didn't know the facts so at that point
46:48one of the detectives threw a chair at
46:50my head because he got frustrated
46:53because I was like getting it wrong and
46:56then that point the other detective said
46:58you know what w you we just type it so
47:01they started typing the confession the
47:04alleged you know confession un
47:06confession and then so once that
47:09happened then I was arrested and then
47:12but I what later on years later when
47:15they when my I had civil attorneys uh um
47:19well when the postconviction process
47:21came up and then my attorneys the
47:23inocence project came in and try to help
47:25me what they realize is that that one
47:28tape that I was saying that I was
47:30getting it wrong because that one tape
47:32that they wanted that for some reason
47:34was missing you un my attorney called me
47:37and said what what happened where is the
47:39tape there like so what the attorney
47:41figured it out because when you go
47:42interrogation you got to mark down the
47:44time it came in and came out so there
47:48was a 4H hour lap between you know the
47:50the final cont it was a four hour gap in
47:52there right so that's where that's where
47:55it was so they actually
47:57now in your case even that even that
48:00that wasn't enough to even get you a
48:02retrial or or an acquit correct it it
48:05because because my my defense attorneys
48:09dropped the ball they never investigated
48:12the they never even bother to look at
48:14the confession the facts does the fit
48:17the da the prosecutor didn't do her job
48:20either which is her job if you're going
48:22to get if your Lynch pin is that
48:24confession and we most attorne and now
48:27I'm a practice I'm an attorney now you
48:30like you said earlier you corroborate
48:32these nothing was corroborated nothing I
48:35mean this this only falls apart because
48:38of DNA an indoc project that starts
48:40really big right now now Mr Mr oo there
48:42was actually uh what also contributed
48:44was a a confession right by Mr aim
48:47Marino um and he he he he confessed
48:51apparently he confessed in a series of
48:52letters that were disregarded including
48:54one to to George Bush when he was the
48:56governor he titled A murder confession
48:58uh but even that didn't didn't
49:00immediately result in your release or
49:02retrial is that correct is that that's
49:05correct I went to prison about 19
49:08actually got went convicted and they
49:10sent me to the prison 1990 this guy
49:13started I think uh confessing in
49:171996 and I didn't I didn't get a visit
49:19from the police department till
49:211998 unbelievable you know but even then
49:25they were not trying to clear me they
49:27were trying to link me and Richard to
49:29this guy unbelievable there was no no
49:32links to be made uh then once that 98
49:36when they came in questioning me I was a
49:38lot smarter then I was older I just shut
49:40down there I just said you know what I
49:42did and and I did tell him you know what
49:45because I this is two reasons I did this
49:48I said number one you st to play the bad
49:50cop good cop I don't want to talk to you
49:52and you know what I did the I did the
49:54con let me do my time there two reasons
49:56why I that because watching I saw the
49:59shash Shank Redemption while in pres and
50:01I know how that ended how that ended I
50:03said wait a minute if I start and behind
50:05my mind I start saying that I'm innocent
50:08to these guys what if they have
50:09something that that they'll destroy that
50:12Prov my innocence I just want him to
50:14think that I'm still claiming this so I
50:17I I ended the I ended the interview and
50:21and immediately I I went to try to get a
50:23hold of bar
50:25Shack and then that led me to Wisconsin
50:28Innocence Project then they stepped in
50:31and then but what I realized later that
50:33police the detective and there was a
50:35Texas Ranger that came to see me uh to
50:37talk to me you know what little did I
50:40know is that that that that those two
50:42guys were actually would they they smell
50:45something funny when they actually that
50:48detect of the reinvestigate he saw he
50:49started actually looking at the
50:52investment and no way so that's pretty
50:55admirable it means that that that
50:57there's individuals it's not there it's
51:00not all bad apples it's it's there's
51:01individuals who go to this job because
51:03they believe in this job and they're
51:04willing to even you know call call into
51:06question the conduct of their comrades
51:08if in order to effectuate in order to
51:11effectuate Justice now now Mr um one
51:14thing that the uh that we deal with that
51:16that I've come to learn especially I do
51:17a little bit of a pro Bona practice with
51:19with um uh some exonerates and release
51:21ease and there seems to be um uh as a a
51:25common occurrence dealing with uh to an
51:29Exon is the infliction of PTSD or
51:31post-traumatic stress uh disorder did do
51:34you believe that that's that that's true
51:36and and was any uh training provided
51:39therapy provided to you by the state and
51:41and and what could we do to to to these
51:43people who are now being released after
51:45periods of confinement for crimes they
51:47didn't commit I think that's the I think
51:50that there is currently no therapy no
51:52psycho I mean you I mean I literally
51:54have to pay out of my own pocket out of
51:55a lawsuit there I was successful on but
51:58there is no therapy I think there's some
52:01states that are starting and maybe
52:03though and there's people lobbying
52:05different state legisl you and that's
52:07one thing I've been add me when I do go
52:09Lobby for either uh uh DNA statue or
52:13anything to try to help the system and
52:15one thing I tell these lawyers that are
52:17lobbying or whoever is not lawyers but
52:19you know people the groups are like you
52:21got to address the therapy nobody's
52:23giving us therapy ptsv is real I was
52:27diagnosed with severe PTSD one of the
52:29worst cases this psychiatrist ever seen
52:31has ever seen um he didn't anticip he
52:36got he I there he he pretty much in my
52:39reports the report said it's it's going
52:42to be difficult for me or anybody on a
52:45that that's that that you know is coed
52:47it's a false profession or cops
52:50manipulate them because they're in a
52:51position of authority I now don't trust
52:55even the doctor the sure that makes that
52:57makes total sense so it's never there
53:00that's going to be with you and and I
53:02try to deal with it as much as I can I'm
53:04really very fortunate that I had the
53:07support that I had wonderful uh civil
53:10attorneys wonderful postc conviction
53:11attorneys that were there and a lot of
53:13these exies that's all they have is the
53:17the the Innocence Project the attorneys
53:19or their or but it's not the state just
53:23throws us out no no money uh even par
53:27get more benefits and you get and you
53:29get you get no you have no no network no
53:32support years's lost of Education it's
53:34not like it it was probably easier for
53:35you to get a job I mean it sounds pretty
53:37uh but what you did do what you did was
53:40become a lawyer right I that I I became
53:43a lawyer um that's I I was my my lawyer
53:48um he my one of my lawyers before I was
53:51going to be released he was sat me down
53:53he said Chris this is um this came Cas
53:57when it unravels in the media because it
53:58was pretty pretty prominent even in
54:01didn't have people even China or people
54:03from overseas know about the case people
54:06especially in the next day they're going
54:07to be troubled because you had never
54:09been in trouble and there it's going to
54:10shake people's faith in the system in
54:13the legal system he said but you don't
54:16have to do it but it would be nice if
54:17you came out and say Hey you know try to
54:19you know don't try to uh try to speak if
54:23you know see you know it's a it's not
54:26the system is not well people let me ask
54:30I mean I mean did you lose faith I mean
54:32do do you think it's a broken system or
54:34do you think it's a system that that
54:35that that works and that that that that
54:37that has some some flawed players or
54:39some flawed occasional political
54:40motivations what do do you think it's a
54:43broken system or is it one that just
54:44needs to be how would you describe it I
54:47think it needs to be tweaked I think the
54:51system the justice system and the way
54:53the founding FS of this country you look
54:55at it whether it's checks and balances
54:57among the government
54:59branches uh the justice has done the
55:01same thing you got the prosecutors you
55:03that's why it's MERS Serv system you get
55:05the prosecute defense attor everybody
55:08trying to look over you know trying to
55:10catch it but uh I think some some of the
55:13players in the system get caught up
55:15either DA's politics they want to get a
55:19conviction so that they can they can win
55:22you know they can win election uh police
55:24officers want to get uh uh promoted uh
55:28and I'm not saying everybody in the
55:29system is like this but defense
55:31attorneys they're jaded you know they've
55:34done it too long they don't know when to
55:35get out so they don't do the the actual
55:38effort but this system is designed it is
55:41one of the best systems the country it's
55:43got to be what I it's just needs to be
55:46tweaked that is such an admirable thing
55:49to to hear uh from someone who is
55:51subjected to to what what you were
55:54subjected to um now Mr OA do you have
55:59any advice uh for people uh who are
56:02incarcerated but but maintain their
56:04innocence or for the loved ones of
56:07individuals uh who who are incarcerated
56:09and maintain their innocence well I
56:11think the I I think the best thing they
56:15can do is uh the loved ones if you feel
56:18that you're loved one or you're relative
56:20your brother son uh husband whatever
56:23wife uh daughter is there in that
56:25situation can just uh reach out to the
56:28in project and you know the in's project
56:31they have projects now 12 years 13 14
56:35years out uh they now have pretty much
56:38inoc projects all over the country and
56:41where if your loved one is in California
56:44you got Innocence Project in San
56:46Francisco you got one I think but you
56:48got one there's some several of them in
56:51in California Texas has got a couple of
56:53them uh Wisconsin's got a then we got
56:55the big one in New York that's the in
56:58the flagship and but they're all Popp
57:00even they're even setting up Innocence
57:02Project in Australia in uh Japan it's
57:06it's impressive but but also it's also I
57:09mean these people can write a letter to
57:10the Innocence Project but the Innocence
57:12Project is you know is is is is is in is
57:14is pretty inundated what what do you
57:16wish what were some of the most
57:18supportive words that you ever heard
57:20from your loved ones uh while you were
57:23inside the biggest support is the worst
57:26thing the first thing is they never they
57:28they never gave up on me they were there
57:31and the one thing my dad taught me and
57:33see you know what theyve accus you with
57:35this but you know what you just you
57:38behave in prison show them that you're
57:40not that type of person don't go like
57:42like a knucklehead just do a he says
57:45hard show them that you're not this
57:48animal that they say and I did I I I
57:52followed my and I was I was a model
57:54president
57:56well you've been you've been more you've
57:58been more than that than a model
57:59prisoner I mean Mr OA what you endured
58:01is is incomprehensive just
58:02incomprehensible to me but the fact that
58:04you're willing to speak about it to
58:05share your story is not only incredibly
58:07admirable on your part but hopefully it
58:09will bring about change not only as far
58:11as quality and caliber of Defense but
58:14oversight and prosecution uh in making
58:17in hopefully making skill sets available
58:19to individuals upon release thank you so
58:21much for what you're doing and and
58:22thanks for being on my show thank you so
58:24much thank you you're welcome all right
58:26well that's going to wrap up our show
58:27thank you for joining us thank you for
58:29listening in a very warm thank you to
58:31our guests Cynthia or and Christopher
58:33AOA if you want to follow what we do uh
58:35go to renovate justice.com and if you
58:37have any thoughts or any comments send
58:39those to me at change renovate
58:41justice.com I also maintain a Blog at
58:43trial.com and you can contact me
58:45directly at wallak legal.com special
58:48thanks to our producers Mark Goldman and
58:49Ryan McCormick in New York and remember
58:52folks let's keep using our heads let's
58:54stop using our hate I'll see you next
58:56week
59:17[Music]
59:26heading for a
59:29[Music]
59:37[Music]
59:57St

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