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Wallach on Law, Episode 6: Featuring Cynthia Orr & Christopher Ochoa — Transcript

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0:01wallacon
0:04law examines criminal cases and criminal
0:06justice and asks the question we are
0:08tough on crime but is that helping can
0:10we be smarter and make us safer I want
0:13the truth you can't handle the truth Ian
0:16Wallach is a criminal defense attorney
0:17and civil rights lawyer in Los Angeles
0:19and New York cases have range from
0:22defense of the accused prosecution of
0:24governments in their treatment of combat
0:26he's a former Los Angeles Deputy public
0:27defender a frequent contributor on legal
0:30issues to radio and television shows
0:32Nationwide country
0:38our courts are the great levelers in our
0:43courts
0:47here's
0:50your host Ian Wallach
0:53[Music]
0:55hello everybody thank you and welcome to
0:57this week's edition of wallacon law I'm
0:59your host Ian Wallick a special hello to
1:01our new listeners and new territories
1:03very thankful that you are uh on board
1:05to spend a little time joining us and
1:06listening to this conversation and
1:08today's conversation is about
1:10exoneration and to understand
1:11exoneration we're going to be speaking
1:13with uh with two uh very special guests
1:15our first is Cynthia Orr now Cynthia Orr
1:18is one of the most accomplished criminal
1:20defense attorneys in in the country and
1:22and she's going to come on and she's
1:24going to talk about some of the hurdles
1:25on the roadblocks and the randomness
1:27that can take place on the road to
1:29exoneration and then we're going to
1:31speak with Christopher Ochoa and Mr
1:32Ochoa is an exoneree and his his
1:35situation is
1:37it's Unique not actually not so much
1:39unique his conviction was the product of
1:42a forced correct confession and we're
1:44going to talk about what it takes to
1:45make someone uh confess to something
1:47that they did not do and how he was able
1:50to uh to be one of the rare few
1:52individuals who gets their uh
1:54convictions uh examined and then
1:56ultimately uh overturned and exonerated
1:59but first let's talk about some legal
2:00news in Annapolis Maryland a detective
2:03accused of murder during an incident of
2:05road road rage has been acquitted now
2:07this was a very racially charged trial
2:09the defendant uh Joseph Walker he was
2:12black detective Walker he was black and
2:14the decedent Joseph Harvey Jr was white
2:16there was multiple claims of
2:17prosecutorial misconduct throughout both
2:21the grand jury proceedings and the trial
2:22in this matter and a concern that
2:24withholding of Brady evidence now this
2:25is evidence that can that the prosecutor
2:27is supposed to put forward or turn over
2:29because it's favorable to the defense
2:31and and that certainly didn't happen
2:33during the grand jury proceedings here
2:34almost didn't happen at trial until the
2:37the defense Council was able to to learn
2:40of it independently and have it be court
2:42ordered well the jury got the case and
2:43after about six hours of deliberation
2:45detective Walker was acquitted on all
2:47counts and he was represented in that
2:49matter by by Charles curlette and Mr
2:51Colette was a guest on the show before
2:53he came on to sort of talk about change
2:55in Department of Justice policy that
2:57relates to the recording of witness
2:58interviews and that's going to come into
3:00play during our conversation later today
3:02with Mr Ochoa but I want to tell you I
3:04want to do a trial with Mr Colette and
3:07he's a great attorney but during closing
3:09argument the audience of the courtroom
3:11became filled with officers who had
3:13worked on the case you know everyone
3:14came in at the DA's order who had worked
3:17in the case to just to just sit in the
3:18pews while we did our closing arguments
3:20and this was clearly done to impact the
3:23jury I objected but it's a public forum
3:25my objection was overruled in detective
3:27Walker's trial during trial and closing
3:29argument the audience was filled with
3:32fellow officers of detective Walker and
3:34and and supporters of the defense now
3:37who who's in the audience is not
3:38supposed to affect a jury's thought
3:40processes but it does and prosecutors
3:42have known this and used it as a tool
3:43for years and those caught up in the
3:45criminal justice system need to be aware
3:47of it and and if they can use it to
3:49their benefit as well now Arizona just
3:52had the fourth botched execution of
3:542014. the execution of Joseph R wood
3:56took over two hours Arizona's attorney
3:59general has issued a temporary halt on
4:01the practice and Mr Wood's attorneys
4:03claimed that he received 15 times the
4:06standard dosage of a painkiller and a
4:08sedative the United States Attorney
4:10General Eric Holder has now called for
4:12disclosure of the contents of these
4:14death cocktails these uh combinations of
4:16medicines that are used in these
4:18procedure in these executions but I
4:20don't think this is going to happen
4:21because disclosing a cocktail recipe
4:23could lead to discovering the identity
4:25of the Doctor Who prescribed the
4:26medications that are inside of it and
4:28the American Medical Association and the
4:30American Board of anesthesiology condemn
4:32a physician's involvement in execution
4:34and it can be a light a basis to revoke
4:37their license so States respond by
4:39passing laws and enacting measures that
4:40hide the identity of doctors that
4:42perform these procedures so they can
4:44keep their licenses and go you know go
4:46on and treat other patients but just to
4:47be clear that means that government
4:49governments uh and States help licensed
4:52professionals hide their identities from
4:54their licensing agencies so they can
4:56violate that licensing agency's rules
4:58that's kind of like if you were to
5:00imagine hiring a lawyer to teach a
5:02witness how to perjure himself
5:04effectively on the stand but hiding that
5:06fact so that lawyer could still go out
5:08there and practice when clearly uh they
5:10should not
5:11and lastly news I got to talk a little
5:13bit more recap on this Manassas warrant
5:15I don't know if you've been following
5:16this uh uh the backstory is a 17 year
5:18old boy and his 15 year old girlfriend
5:20we're sending each other pictures of
5:22their of their private parts and a
5:25parent of the girl found the phone and
5:27won the boy punished and uh filled the
5:29report and the boy was punished but he
5:31was charged with a first possession of
5:34child pornography for having a picture
5:35and second manufacturing child
5:38pornography for taking a pictures of of
5:40himself and as you as you know these
5:42charges have absolutely horrific uh life
5:45consequences uh he was stripped his
5:48private parts were photographed and then
5:49the D.A the day of the hearing the the
5:51juvenile trial the da told the lawyer
5:53that unless he pled guilty the D.A was
5:55going to execute a warrant the officers
5:57were going to execute a warrant that
5:58would force this boy to be taken to the
6:00hospital to have his privates injected
6:02to create a state of arousal so they
6:04could do another round of photographs
6:05that they were going to use as evidence
6:06in the trial now the lawyer freaked out
6:08they told the press the Press inquired
6:10the Manassas Police Department released
6:11a a statement stating no no no we would
6:13never authorize such an intrusive
6:15practice but didn't expressively did I
6:17doing so and then later uh journalism
6:19helped prove that this thing had
6:22actually happened it did happen they
6:24acknowledged it that it happened uh the
6:26practice was caught the practice was
6:28stopped at least for now but let's talk
6:29about at least five reasons why this is
6:32all just so messed up I mean first of
6:34all child porn statutes are designed to
6:36protect against a different infinitely
6:38more Insidious much more heinous evil
6:40sending us a text message with a picture
6:43of yourself when you're under the age of
6:4418 does not render one in my opinion or
6:47most people's opinion for that matter a
6:49child pornographer second the Manassas
6:52Police Department issued a public
6:53statement that that essentially denied
6:56that they got this warrant when they had
6:58okay and this this false release of
7:00misinformation maybe they can say you
7:02know rely on a grammar trick or whatever
7:03this completely undermines the public
7:05Trust
7:06third in the name of fight of a fighting
7:09child porn
7:10officials wanted to make child porn
7:13that's so disturbing fourth no one
7:16accused of a crime should be forced as
7:18part of an investigation to experience a
7:21far greater injury than they are alleged
7:22to have caused and fifth the Manassas
7:25Police Department lied the D.A and the
7:27officers who sought the warrant well
7:29they got caught there's a judge out
7:31there that actually signed this warrant
7:32and guess what's going to happen to
7:33these people in these agencies guess
7:34what's going to happen to them nothing
7:36absolutely nothing they're still going
7:38to keep their jobs in Juvenile Justice
7:40determining the the fate and the futures
7:42of children and simply put that is one
7:45big mess
7:47foreign okay so we are welcoming to the
7:49show in order to sort of understand the
7:52process and and some of the hurdles of
7:54exoneration uh Cynthia Orr and and
7:56Council Orr has an absolutely Stellar uh
7:59reputation she's a partner in The Firm
8:01of Goldstein Goldstein and hilly in San
8:02Antonio she's a certified criminal law
8:05specialist in both criminal law and in
8:07criminal appellate law she's a past
8:09president of the National Association of
8:11criminal defense lawyers an organization
8:13I am proud to be a member of she
8:15co-founded the Texas innocent network
8:16but I could go on but I want to mention
8:18two accolades for which he was
8:21recognized at just this past month this
8:23year she received the highest award
8:25offered by the nacdl it's the Robert
8:26Heaney award and if you were to still
8:28down it's what it's for at its Essence
8:30it's basically for being the the the
8:32best person ever it's it's given to the
8:35person who embodies the principles of
8:36the organization to their to the to that
8:38highest extent and she was she was the
8:40honoree this year and she's also
8:41chair-elect the criminal justice section
8:43of the American Bar Association this
8:45year uh miss or welcome to the show
8:48Sam thank you for inviting me on it's a
8:51pleasure to talk to you oh it's it's I'm
8:53really excited to have you here but
8:55listen we're it's sort of a somber uh
8:57conversation
8:58um today we're going to be talking to uh
9:00to you and and to an exonary and we're
9:02going to be talking about the the you
9:04know exoneration and I think what people
9:06who aren't involved in the legal process
9:08some of their questions people think
9:11it's it's an easy process you know they
9:13think okay someone claims they're
9:15innocent it's easy to prove it and and
9:17they can walk out the door
9:19um and I'm pretty sure right that's not
9:21an accurate yeah I could you know
9:27crap shoot
9:30an innocent to even get their case heard
9:33or investigated or uh defended by a
9:37criminal defense lawyer
9:39um or the Innocence Project or nice
9:42civil lawyers who often kick their uh
9:45pro bono hours to help in these cases
9:48and just to clarify anything most people
9:49know what what pro bono is but that's
9:51just what a lawyer decides to work uh
9:53you know for for no money because they
9:54believe there's there's some injustice
9:56and and they won't invest their time so
9:59I didn't mean to cut you off but one of
10:01the proudest traditions of the criminal
10:03defense profession I'm not aware of many
10:05other professions that engage in that
10:07kind of work to improve the system of
10:09justice but that's Ian is where that
10:11crap shoot comes in and by that I mean
10:13people that are lucky enough to have
10:16their cases worked on are just the luck
10:18of the draw it depends on whether one of
10:21these lawyers has an open slot they're
10:26scheduled to do some free work
10:29on one of these cases when the request
10:32comes in or whether it's caught the eye
10:34of the innocent project or whether a
10:37lawyer has the inclination to assist
10:40when they're called on to help so and
10:42again I worry yeah about the numbers of
10:45people that never we never hear about
10:47sure and I guess the the individual I
10:51mean it's it's frequent my experience
10:52that individuals who are charged with
10:54crimes are able to be manipulated more
10:57easily by the system are individuals who
10:59who don't really have skills as far as
11:01writing or or communicating or or
11:03expressing their ideas and it seems like
11:05the understanding right of what the
11:08process requires yeah so in that
11:10situation those individuals it's highly
11:12unlikely that someone's going to be like
11:14that is this highly likely that anybody
11:16is going to be able to it's such a small
11:18percentage of people are going to be
11:19able to get to you but but
11:22um let's imagine that or take an example
11:24where one person is one of these very
11:27fortunate individual feels unfortunate
11:30is an odd word to use for someone who's
11:32been convicted of something that they
11:34haven't done but but they're able to
11:35actually get their letter uh to you on
11:38your desk during a period when you are
11:40actually have the time and are willing
11:42to give your own your own pro bono time
11:43your own free time to examine a claim of
11:46innocence and you read the letter what
11:48would your next step be
11:51well I would of course go meet them
11:54meet that all their lawyers I've examine
11:56what the records revealed and then I
11:58would start drilling down and seeing
12:00what the rest of the story is because
12:02there's always
12:04the rest of the story when someone's
12:06wrongly convicted whether it's a course
12:08to confession a jailhouse snitch telling
12:12a story to reduce their own uh criminal
12:15exposure a falsified science dry labbing
12:20where they just scientists make up
12:22results that don't really what do you
12:24mean I'm sorry when you use the word dry
12:26labbing what are you referring to I'm
12:29talking about bald safe
12:31okay a report as if they've done testing
12:34when they haven't done any and and so
12:36the term dry labbing means there hasn't
12:38been any labbing at all and so they just
12:41make it up to fit the police Theory
12:43pretty common and sad that we have a
12:46name for uh because it's become so
12:48common sure but there's any any number
12:51of things that that have led to the the
12:53false conviction sometimes really bad
12:55defense lawyering as well and
12:58then helping to make sure that sees the
13:02light of day hoping that you get the
13:04court that will listen to it and that
13:06you're not so far along in the
13:07proceedings where you can't raise the
13:10claims uh and let me stop you right
13:13there is I mean could there be a time
13:15legally where uh even though there might
13:18be some like Rock Solid indisputable
13:20Newfound evidence of Innocence an
13:23attorney was precluded or should there
13:25shouldn't there always be some legal
13:27vehicle
13:28you know even though all the Appellate
13:29peels are you know the processes are
13:31exhausted there has to be
13:32isn't there always some way
13:35to to reopening because they're so too
13:38so terribly shocking things that is one
13:43jurisdiction and the law does not
13:46recognize that innocence gets you relief
13:48and that you need to have also some
13:51wrong
13:54in in the Constitutional wrong in how
13:57your trial was conducted or the
13:59proceeding was conducted or you may have
14:01been Duty bound to have discovered this
14:04information sooner and because you
14:06didn't you're just out of luck so we've
14:09got that legal impediment that the law
14:11doesn't recognize that innocence is
14:12somehow a legal claim that gets you
14:14opens up to jailhouse doors and the
14:16Supreme Court's written about that and
14:18what a terrible thing that is but the
14:21other thing that stands as a natural
14:23impediment is and what I find most
14:25frustrating and mystifying is that
14:28prosecutors tend to stick by these
14:30convictions after it becomes really
14:32evident to them that they ought to help
14:34you overcome these procedural hurdles
14:37whatever they might do and unlike the
14:39jailhouse doors and let the innocent
14:41person go free it's always surprised
14:46me but I've very rarely encounter
14:50encounter an enlightened prosecutor
14:52although they're out there that says oh
14:55my gosh this is a terrible long let's
14:57fix it that I mean that it's it's
14:59shocking I know out here we have there's
15:01at least one judge I know who's a former
15:02prosecutor who actually devotes a fair
15:04amount of his time keeping in touch with
15:06people who he sent Behind Bars to find
15:07out if he wants to make you know
15:08applications for their you know uh early
15:10release he's it's pretty it's it's
15:12judgmental but but they are few and far
15:15between
15:16um why do you think that is why why
15:19would a prosecutor or why would would a
15:21bench officer why would a judge be
15:23averse to potentially releasing someone
15:26who's doing time for a crime they didn't
15:28commit
15:29I think because is these disenfranchised
15:32people have become politicized it's you
15:34know oh boy I want to be known for
15:36unlocking the jailhouse door I want to
15:37be known for being soft on crime that
15:39doesn't get these District Attorneys
15:42elected or the judges elected in fact
15:44there's this wave of anti-bearness
15:48sentiment that's used unfairly to try
15:50and defeat fair-minded people from
15:52taking the bench or becoming prosecutors
15:55elected prosecutors so instead of
15:58looking at what's fair and just as the
16:01professionals that we are a lot of these
16:04folks are pressured into oh I've got to
16:06think about what this means for my poll
16:08numbers my election numbers my
16:10popularity and I just simply can't be a
16:13part of I've often I've often thought
16:14I've often thought out here that a lot
16:16of people I know go into I mean I know
16:18some wonderful people who are
16:19prosecutors I know some wonderful
16:21criminal defense attorneys who are
16:23former prosecutors but there's certainly
16:25a sentiment if I can show a prosecutor
16:27that that that my client didn't do the
16:29crime that he's accused of that once
16:32even said we're not in the business of
16:33dismissing cases I've been told that uh
16:36you know well he he must have done
16:37something similar and there seems to be
16:39such an an angry mindset imposed upon
16:42individuals who are accused of something
16:44and a lot of that I I fear stems from
16:47from people who decide to become
16:49prosecutors and I don't know how to
16:50change it that's probably a subject
16:51we're told we're told not to care about
16:54these people right it's lost credibility
16:56the instance they're charged uh and then
16:59we you know it's sort of like well let's
17:01all Break The Rules together to get this
17:03conviction and then as Brady violations
17:06that is undisclosed favorable evidence
17:09unfolds or these injustices come about
17:11it's the rare case where the prosecutor
17:14will say as in Senator Steven's case uh
17:18I'm sorry we really can't stand by this
17:20conviction any longer we need to
17:22overtune it turn it uh but you know at
17:25that point the damage is done or uh when
17:27a judge says I'm going to call upon an
17:30investigation of this process and we're
17:32going to correctly wrong the problem is
17:34there haven't been consequences when
17:36prosecutors have done this and I think
17:39that you know our system needs to temper
17:41prosecutorial discretion and uh
17:45prosecutor or wrongdoing that's
17:47currently is immunized uh by you know
17:50having some consequences apply when when
17:52people have acted wrongly and I I think
17:55we're beginning the incentive we're
17:57beginning to see that just a little bit
17:58I mean I mean and you were you were
17:59involved to that in some degree as
18:02regards the the Michael Morton trial and
18:04the hiding of evidence that that led it
18:06led to his conviction and sadly this is
18:09the only example of this that I know of
18:11but where the first time in history that
18:13a prosecutor spent any time in jail for
18:16uh intentionally uh hiding favorable
18:19evidence in the case that wrongly caused
18:21an innocent man to go to prison I hope
18:23it's not the last time but I hope it has
18:26is enough of an impact it'll make
18:29prosecute decide I I'm a professional I
18:32love my law license
18:33um I'm not sure you can do that kind of
18:35misconduct sure well listen if you're
18:37just joining us right now this is uh
18:38Wallach online Our Guest is Cynthia Orr
18:40she's with us today discussing uh
18:42exonerations now now you've you've
18:44worked with uh with exonerees and both
18:47before they've been exonerated and after
18:49and and I imagine that for some of the
18:51same reasons that might have led you
18:52into the field of criminal defense
18:54you've gotten to know these people both
18:56during their periods of incarceration
18:57and afterwards is that fair to assume
19:00sure
19:02um what what skill sets were made
19:04available by the state to to help
19:07someone who's been wrongly convicted for
19:09a period of time uh re-enter into
19:11society nothing's
19:16done to help them re-enter into society
19:18um not when they're guilty and serve
19:21their time or when they're exonerated
19:22and they're settling relief they're sort
19:25of you know uh like Rip Van Winkle
19:28tossed into modern society without
19:31having had any assistance to adapt and
19:35some do very well and some do very
19:38poorly you know I I have a pro bono case
19:40I I have one case that I've been working
19:42on uh fortunately with the New York
19:44Innocence Project and it deals with some
19:47some conduct that exonerees uh because a
19:51lot of them end up with with substantial
19:52either substance abuse or other problems
19:54afterwards and they say it's it's one of
19:56the clearest examples of of
19:58post-traumatic stress disorder right the
20:00absolutely was thinking yep you're right
20:03again and and and there are zero skill
20:05sets that that are given and and when I
20:08was talking to some of the social
20:09workers over there they said normally
20:11what the pattern is is these people come
20:12out they know they're well received
20:13because of a good social conscience you
20:15know in the community but they can't you
20:17know they can't get jobs they they uh
20:20and if they if they they may as as many
20:22people do you know self-medicate turn to
20:24alcohol turn to something else and and
20:26it's it's an absolutely disastrous
20:28problem coupled with the fact that
20:30how
20:32do you throw somebody back in jail if
20:34the reason that they're not going along
20:35with the rules of society is society's
20:37problem it's
20:39these people were ill-equipped in Two
20:42respects when they started down that
20:43road one many of them trust the system
20:46and think well I'm innocent so I'll be
20:48acquitted and they don't expect the sort
20:50of unfair prejudicial sort of process
20:53they go through where it's presumed
20:54they're guilty there really isn't a
20:57presumption of an Essence jurors really
20:58don't do their jobs to protect them
21:00against the the strong strength of the
21:02government uh and equip them if the
21:04evidence is not there uh and and uh the
21:08second thing is many of them are just
21:09ill-equipped just generally they're not
21:12intelligent they're not
21:14um well represented
21:16um they're sometimes young
21:19um next to me easy targets police skills
21:23they are they are and uh but so is
21:25Michael Morton said you know where I go
21:28you go uh this could happen to you and
21:31you do need to work harder to make sure
21:33it doesn't and it's not letting it rest
21:36on the current Russian Roulette system
21:38of oh this one's going to get reviewed
21:41because Cynthia and Jerry have time to
21:43work on it or very right sure project
21:46can do it or or John Railey civil
21:49lawyers willing to become involved
21:50that's just not uh anything that we can
21:53be proud of and say hey the system works
21:55here it doesn't it's broken uh and we
21:58need to do something more systemic about
22:00uh
22:01when
22:04you talk about when you talk about need
22:05to do something systemic I mean there's
22:06over 200 exonerations Now effectuated by
22:09Innocence Project that's that's over 200
22:11individuals who are locked up that that
22:13what I don't think people realize is
22:15that also means that that individuals
22:17who committed over 200 heinous crimes
22:20we're allowed to to go free
22:22uh that's right and kill and kill and
22:26hurt again and it's a public safety
22:28issue it's it's not a bleeding heart
22:30liberal issue we really need to get it
22:33right
22:33uh not because it's morally right alone
22:36but because we we need to make sure that
22:40folks that are dangerous
22:42um don't get to go kill again and we
22:43know in Michael Morton's case that there
22:46was a cold case with uh
22:48um Mark Allen Norwood's DNA there at the
22:51scene uh he's the fella who's convicted
22:54ultimately of really killing Christine
22:56Morton and his DNA was at the scene of
22:59another woman who was bludgeoned to
23:00death with a young child so uh it's it's
23:04so important even for law enforcement
23:06but instead of just closing cases we try
23:09and get it right yeah we try to get it
23:10right the whole way around right and be
23:13open be open instead of retool our case
23:16when there's evidence that someone's
23:18innocent I I think one problem that
23:20we're seeing is is uh you know is
23:22coerced confessions a lot of people say
23:24you know no one's ever going to confess
23:25to to you know a crime they didn't do
23:27especially a heinous crime uh and I I
23:29don't think and we're going to speak to
23:31Mr Ocho a little bit but I I don't think
23:33people really understand that it's not a
23:35question of you know what kind of person
23:36would conv would would confess to a
23:39crime that they didn't do but really a
23:41question of what can happen to a person
23:43to make them confess subject to really
23:46professional uh and and scientifically
23:49proven uh skills that are used to get
23:53people to say what you want them to say
23:54you can go home after you say this we'll
23:57let you you know leave our presence
23:59we'll just say it and we'll you know
24:00things will go your way and uh they
24:04think well I'm fine I'm with the police
24:06officer I can trust if they say sure
24:08what gets mind-boggling
24:10we're allowed to lie well I understand
24:13that they're allowed to lie and and I
24:15mean that may be troubling that that's
24:16that's separate what really frustrates
24:18what I I'm shocked about when I speak
24:20when I speak with these individuals is
24:21uh you know how they'll stop and restart
24:24a recorded coerced confession after
24:26someone's beaten if the facts aren't
24:27right and they're like no no no no okay
24:30say it again but this time the room was
24:31blue say it again this time the room is
24:33red and it seems to me that somewhere in
24:35that process they should think hey wait
24:36a second he doesn't know if
24:40I'm needing to tell him what the facts
24:42are I'm guessing that I believe he
24:44doesn't know what they are uh well you'd
24:47think so but a law professor who used to
24:49teach at the police academy told me one
24:51time that we we make the wrong
24:53assumption when we think police are
24:56there to solve cases they aren't they're
24:58there to close cases sure as soon as
25:00they can jam that round peg into that
25:02square hole they're done they're done
25:04they can go home and so I think that's
25:06the phenomena that you're talking about
25:07well I would add to it I think I think
25:09they pretty much have you know uh they
25:12tend to pee people I mean I know some
25:13very brilliant officers but but you know
25:15higher education is not a requirement uh
25:18that they're they're people who attend a
25:19lot of ones that I know are people who
25:21who want who want quick answers and they
25:23also are part of their job is the
25:25comfort in getting people to say what
25:28what they want them to to say and it's
25:30it's a dangerous mix especially when it
25:32comes to when it comes to confessions
25:35um
25:36it has to come with their training I
25:38think a lot of well-meaning officers
25:40just get it wrong I you know I I don't
25:43think you know law enforcement offices
25:45are stupid or or no intention but I
25:48think it's a part of culture and they
25:49look at the rest of the world with
25:50really jaundice dies it's a matter of
25:53we're going to be patient until we can
25:54Hammer at this out of this flying
25:56suspect instead of thinking wait a
25:58minute he really doesn't know this stuff
26:00right right right well actually and I
26:03want to talk to you about that if you're
26:03just joining us this is Wallach online
26:05and our guest today is Cynthia Orr we're
26:07discussing exonerations and and um as
26:09you know I think it was in July it went
26:11into effect but there was a May uh
26:13Department of Justice policy memo that
26:16that seems to be part of Eric holder's
26:18efforts to sort of change part of the
26:20pro part of the process and this was the
26:22policy member mandating not mandating
26:25urging that that suspect interviews uh
26:28be recorded
26:30um I know that that's a that's that's a
26:32you know it's a new memo and it only
26:33says you know when practical and it has
26:35lots of outs but that's certainly still
26:37isn't the the the the policy or and
26:40rarely is the practice out out here in
26:42California
26:43um is it the practice in Texas yet we're
26:47very lucky in that it has been an
26:48activity fantastic court
26:51and you know it's really been wonderful
26:53although you know we don't we the
26:56question is when does the recording
26:57start that's always helpful yeah you
27:00know it uh we're not having an interview
27:02begin in the police car or at the scene
27:06before we get someone in with to the
27:07interview room
27:09um but we actually have an exclusionary
27:11rule that would exclude exclude
27:13statements if they're not recorded uh
27:16and it works really well that's that's
27:19fantastic I mean how did that I'd love
27:21to know how that came about because we
27:22we certainly don't have that here and we
27:24could and we really need it
27:26um well we had a very odd um
27:30said fellow in helping that go by and
27:32that was uh Barbara hervey who's one of
27:35our justices on the Court of Criminal
27:37Appeals it was very Law and Order
27:40um she was one of the people who
27:41promoted it because she saw it as
27:43helpful to law enforcement because it is
27:46it is it really is that's why I mean it
27:50gives them it gives them you know so it
27:53make it gives them substantive
27:55affirmation of the information that
27:58they're trying to to put forward so I've
28:01never really understood why the FBI has
28:03this policy against recording statements
28:05that just never made much sense to me
28:07but you know you and I have encountered
28:10as defense lawyers how
28:12the the Satanism the eye of the beholder
28:16and often sure things that happen much
28:19differently are recorded in it a
28:21different way by someone that looks at
28:24the statement from the perception of
28:25someone who assumes minimizing or lying
28:28or
28:29um or who they think you know they're
28:31looking for them to say certain things
28:32one thing one thing I learned from uh uh
28:35about about Mr Ochoa's case that I was I
28:37was so shocking and I'd love you to
28:39comment on it if you can in a few
28:40minutes that we have is that there was a
28:42um you know a separate a separate
28:44confession for the uh for the individual
28:46who actually committed the crime and it
28:47was uh coupled and I was able to be
28:49confirmed with with DNA and and the the
28:52law enforcement response was not you
28:54know to to liberate him
28:56but but rather to try to again coerce
29:00him to make a confession linking him to
29:02the actual killer
29:04and I wonder how much of that is
29:06embarrassment and covering their own uh
29:09misconduct and how much of it was really
29:11thinking that they were linked but you
29:13know that's the reaction whenever you
29:14provide evidence of Innocence it's not
29:16just in the context of course
29:18confessions the first reaction of a
29:20prosecutor is I'm going to retool my
29:22case to allow for this part of the story
29:24to fit into it rather than saying oops
29:27there's something wrong exactly right
29:29um it's it's stunning to me too it
29:31happens every time and I I really can't
29:33uh pretend to understand enough to
29:36explain the phenomenon other than at
29:38this point we're dealing with
29:39adversaries and and folks who are
29:42fighting to win something a contest
29:44instead of people who really are looking
29:47at my job is not only to represent law
29:52enforcement but also to represent the
29:53citizen accused and to make sure we
29:55achieve Justice I don't think that job
29:58is taken seriously and enough not at any
30:01stage in the proceeding not at any place
30:03or anywhere where our system of justice
30:06places that Duty upon prosecutors and
30:09law enforcement and I think it's time
30:11that we start holding people accountable
30:13for that part of their Duty as well well
30:15here here
30:17um I know I fully support that listen
30:18first of all congratulations for your
30:21week and for for all the all the awards
30:23you deserved also thank you for uh you
30:25know for giving your time helping us
30:26sort of understand this process and and
30:28that you know because the more we talk
30:30about it hopefully we can we can bring
30:31about we can bring about some change
30:33thank you thanks thanks so much for
30:35joining your help and with your program
30:36Ian thank you so much if you want to
30:39learn more about Miss Orr uh well first
30:41of all you can Google her her name is
30:42going to pop up absolutely uh everywhere
30:44you can read about just more recent uh
30:46work of hers in the Cameron Todd
30:48Willingham case which is troubling
30:49because as you will find out Mr
30:51Willingham might have been exonerated if
30:53uh had he not been executed but you
30:55could also her website at www.ggandh.com
30:59they're in San Antonio Texas uh and it's
31:02uh just an absolute honor it was an
31:04absolute honor to have her to have her
31:05on the show now Christopher is an
31:08exoneree and his story is exceptionally
31:10compelling he was convicted of the of
31:13the rape and murder of a woman named
31:15Nancy depriest and he was um and he had
31:18no involvement whatsoever with the crime
31:19what what we're going to learn and
31:21what's what's so troubling in his
31:23conviction was largely the result of a
31:26forced and coerced confession this is an
31:28issue that's been uh very much in the
31:30news lately as you guys know as a result
31:33of some changes in Department of Justice
31:35policy but he's going to give us sort of
31:37his personal uh experience and it's very
31:39kind of to join us and tell us uh what
31:42what that means
31:43well October 1988 a 20-year woman named
31:46Nancy depriest was working alone at a
31:47Pizza Hut and and she was raped and she
31:49was murdered and days later uh Mr Ochoa
31:53uh another man named Mr damsiger were
31:56arrested in connection with that
31:58investigation Mr Ochoa uh thank you for
32:01being on our show so much
32:03uh you're welcome
32:05um so
32:06I know it's going to be kind of sticky I
32:08mean kind of kind of difficult for you
32:10to to talk about it I'm really thankful
32:12that you're here but but when did you
32:14first learn that you had been arrested
32:17uh for murder
32:20um
32:21you know I uh it was pretty it's just
32:26murder and rape of this young moment
32:28happen at one of the local Pizza Huts in
32:30Austin Texas
32:32at that time me and my roommate were
32:34working at other Pizza Huts but
32:37essentially
32:38the Pizza Hut while the climate party
32:40was closed for a crime scene
32:42investigation and all this kind of stuff
32:44when they reopened it uh my roommate was
32:48driving back driving me back home from
32:50somewhere and he and you were driving
32:53the the Pizza Hut where it happened was
32:56right on the way right off the
32:57interstate
32:58and uh he for someone who's in another
33:01wanted to go see where the crime
33:03happened
33:04uh curiosity I guess teenager he's like
33:0719 I was like 21. and you know uh like
33:10my attorney said that in itself is not a
33:12crime but the suspicion so so we go into
33:15he he insists on the beach house we go
33:17in there and he orders a
33:21beer so both of us which uh
33:25the
33:34memory of the victim in the restaurant
33:36and then to me that in itself I just we
33:39left shortly there after they had
33:42security guard posted there
33:44he also my roommate starts asking
33:46questions of the you know and then I
33:48guess that sort of triggered an amount
33:51of Suspicion when when afterward were
33:54you uh were you arrested and where were
33:56you taken when you were arrested
33:58uh you know
34:01uh I was picked up on a Friday
34:05for questioning if I uh and obviously
34:09the cops the police department said well
34:10we're going to question you about a
34:12burglary
34:14and I will being a young kid I had never
34:16been in trouble before I assumed
34:18burglary taking broccoli and robbery to
34:21me the same thing you're taking people's
34:22stuff right so but at that time when
34:25they had to tell me about the burger I
34:26said well because they had this crime
34:28that uh they had not solved
34:33they had not solved so
34:38um it was uh it was pretty um so
34:41everybody all the Pizza Huts knew about
34:44all the employees we knew that there was
34:46an unsolved crime so
34:48in the back of my mind when I asked the
34:51cops so when they're taking me to the
34:52station ask them is this when uh when
34:56they said about the program well it took
34:58me it drove me to the the PlayStation
35:01I said is this I'm just out of curiosity
35:04is this about the order at the Pizza Hut
35:07on you know the moment and they said no
35:10it's not about that it's about a
35:12burglary well it was about but I was
35:15already a suspect at that time obviously
35:17police officers are allowed to lie to
35:20suspects or whatnot right you know so
35:24sure there's no probation on that
35:26yeah so then uh um the
35:30cops take me and ask me a couple
35:32questions about a brewery but all of a
35:33sudden within two minutes I'm being
35:35interrogated for this murder
35:38uh what was your what was your initial
35:41response I mean do you remember what was
35:43your initial emotional response
35:50I don't know
35:51and the car and they were they sent in
35:54the back cop uh he was the first one to
35:57come in and get well I
36:00apologize there were several officers
36:01when you say when you say you know the
36:03the bad cop was he was he physically
36:06imposing was he uh vocally imposing all
36:11of it physically imposing
36:13uh vocal
36:17um and he was in you know at that time I
36:19didn't know and he he was playing a good
36:21cause there was a good cop bad cop for
36:23all like GP guy
36:25but he comes at me and says what do you
36:27know about this crime
36:28and I don't know I said I don't know
36:30anything and then he says well why were
36:33you asking about the crime when our
36:35detectives came to pick you up for a
36:37burglary
36:38so I actually bought a brother as well
36:40but he lied to me and so I just uh I
36:42said I was just curious
36:44uh and he said nobody's just curious you
36:46got to know something if you know
36:47something and you don't tell me what you
36:50know if somebody did it and and then
36:52they came and told you and you don't
36:54tell us we're going to charge you with
36:55capital murder that helps I mean right
36:58it didn't take about 10 to 10 minutes
37:01yeah
37:03before they're telling you that you're
37:04looking at the death penalty and life on
37:06death row
37:07um exactly yeah what what did you do I
37:11mean I mean how do you how does anyone
37:13respond to information like that
37:14especially when there isn't
37:17yeah and I you know and I told him well
37:19I I know what you said but there's
37:21nothing I can't take there's nothing I
37:22know I don't know anything about
37:24well I don't I don't believe you I think
37:26you're hiding something and I'm gonna
37:28I'm gonna charge you I'm not gonna take
37:30James I mean he walked out of the room
37:32then the bat in the good cop Right comes
37:35in you know all my partner's just a hot
37:38head I can calm him down you know what
37:40and then this is this is what got me
37:43is that he said just tell us what you
37:45know and then you can go
37:47so I was 21 so okay at this point I had
37:51never been in trouble with the police
37:53department and we're always taught as
37:55kids in school the police department
37:57comes and tells us right all of us that
38:00we're there to help you we're there to
38:01protect you right so I was always in the
38:05assumption that that's what they they
38:07were there for it so you know there are
38:09so the guy the good cop said well when
38:12if you kill some statement you can go
38:18so I I already I didn't I I already put
38:22it in my mind that I did not have free
38:24will leave well although I did you know
38:27what I'm saying right but that didn't
38:29solve the respect I had for police
38:31officers said okay I don't and I didn't
38:33know I just didn't know so he walked out
38:36in the bad cop walks here and it starts
38:38issuing more death penalty checks
38:40getting in front of my face how long how
38:43long did this process take was it a
38:45series of hours was it a series of days
38:47uh yeah it was the first one on the
38:49Friday was 11 out of 10 11 hours and
38:52that's pretty long and did they did they
38:54tell you that they had a right you had a
38:56right to lawyer did they just sort of
38:57read it to you off a form or did they
38:59not mention it at all what
39:01here's what happened and then so there
39:03in between shuffling and questioning me
39:05a female detective Hispanic detective
39:08walked in
39:09and I thought to me my my oh she's a
39:13female and she should be more
39:14compassionate she said these these guys
39:17so I asked you do you think it's
39:19possible that I
39:20I
39:21um an attorney right
39:23yeah she turned around and gave me the
39:25dirtiest book no you cannot have one
39:28until you're officially officially
39:29charged
39:31well I'll come to find out that I now
39:33what I know to my attorneys anymore
39:35that's that's not the case I already
39:38invoked Miranda yeah once I do that it
39:41should stop they shouldn't even kept on
39:44questioning it kept on it kept on this
39:46was already gone at one point at
39:50what point after after the questioning
39:52how far they didn't just want you to
39:55stand up and say you know I withdrophe
39:58of not guilty they wanted you to
39:59actually participate
40:01in the prosecution of you and Mr
40:04danziger is that correct yes yes yes yes
40:06and that that whole angle was getting
40:09Richard danziger tell you that he
40:12hitting your roommate did did he do this
40:14I said no I don't know and I kept on
40:16because I didn't know
40:17but as try more on he used to show me
40:20pictures of death row of the South the
40:22funeral cooperate this is what you're
40:24gonna we're gonna live the rest of you
40:26until you die you're not going to be
40:28able to hold your family anymore because
40:29they don't that's not allowed in death
40:31row and I'm gonna make sure you're I'm
40:33there when they execute you you don't
40:35cooperate with us
40:37um yeah when what else changed I mean I
40:42mean the human will is strong but but
40:44eventually there comes a point where
40:45where anyone is going to crumble uh
40:48especially when facing
40:49yeah no especially when facing the
40:51forces of a government what what how
40:54well were you when did you crumble and
40:56what made you crumble
40:58um I think I was pregnant as several
41:00hours into the interrogation I was just
41:02tired I wanted to go home I thought I
41:04couldn't go home on this and they were
41:06just kept on and but the I was already
41:09tired exhausted I just wanted to get out
41:11of there but I will treasured it
41:13triggered me so you know what
41:15just what I have to do I just want to
41:18give me whatever they wanted me to say I
41:20just wanted it done
41:22right because I was
41:24there there was one point the police the
41:27detector said you know what I am the
41:29entire sick and tired of your BS
41:31I am going to just book you you've never
41:34been in jail before I saw your record
41:36I'm gonna book you and throw you in
41:38there with the rest of the inmates and
41:40you'll be fresh to meet for them so I
41:42actually got to mean jailhouse right
41:44right sure thank God and that is when I
41:48said you know what what do you want I
41:50just what do you want me to do just so
41:52that's when they that's when they
41:53involved that's when they read me with
41:55Miranda rights when I was ready to when
41:57I had already just settled you know but
42:00basically I just they wanted me to say
42:02my Richard Diamond was the one that did
42:06he's
42:09giving me leading questions
42:11or would you say leading questions what
42:14do you mean is he yeah
42:18okay
42:21it almost there right or something like
42:23that he was okay yes it was that because
42:25I didn't know or
42:28or that was the third question that was
42:30the third um that was his style that he
42:32did you know I had three internet three
42:34com three statements by the best of
42:37style like in the the first one he said
42:39well you're Richard David came and told
42:41you right that he he did this didn't he
42:43come brag about it and I would just
42:45repeat what he said
42:48that was the first confession on a
42:51Friday you know and then uh Friday and
42:53then I uh I thought I was gonna be able
42:55to go home once the sun again I signed
42:58that statement which he didn't remember
42:59I was just putting all the blame on Rich
43:02about you know I just didn't know I I
43:04have to I have to ask I mean I think I
43:07think what you're saying is that your
43:08will was so beaten down that you
43:11actually believed that if you confessed
43:13to a murder you'd be let out the door is
43:15that yeah it was yeah and I thought that
43:18okay I give him a statement it'll be all
43:20sorted out by the defensive turning the
43:22prostitution and it'll be sorted out
43:24because I've been in the justice system
43:26because we're taught that that's what
43:27we're supposed to do right people get
43:30accused they sort it out
43:32um
43:33but that didn't happen so uh and then I
43:37took me to go give blood samples and all
43:39that and then they put me up at a hotel
43:40on the weekend after that first
43:41statement
43:43uh I call that's at that point when I
43:46take put me at a hotel because they said
43:48we're afraid that Richard is gonna hurt
43:49you because you did get a statement
43:51so they told me not to see anybody not
43:54to talk to anybody so that they out of
43:56the room success that's
43:59a police department's Express all that
44:01stuff but at some point in that weekend
44:03Saturday I called my roommate I said you
44:06know what I think well my other roommate
44:08I had like two three women I think I'm
44:10gonna need an attorney
44:11so and then so because I hadn't I I
44:15hadn't I didn't have contact for my with
44:17my family actually
44:19so I was already arrested because that
44:21was my first when they gave these these
44:24recordings to you
44:25um these
44:27weren't recorded they weren't actually
44:28like Sound audio recordings right or
44:31they were typing
44:33yeah the first one was typing but then
44:35they take me back up Monday they picked
44:37me up to Police Department says now we
44:39know and this is the door record now we
44:41know you're guilty because you called
44:45your roommate and you asked her for an
44:46attorney and only guilty people ask for
44:48attorneys I believe it was another 12
44:50hours of questioning these were audio
44:53tape this second round of foot now they
44:55want to mean the gift statements can
44:57affect the first statement in the
44:58morning and the death penalty was still
45:00there my mind was still mush I was in
45:03jail I had never been in there so Mr
45:06Ochoa here in in in the cases where we
45:09have with uh with coerced or forced uh
45:11confessions the the convicted party is
45:14usually exonerated in one of two ways
45:16and I know I know both those ways were
45:18at issue in your in your case first is
45:19DNA DNA can come up and prove that
45:21somebody else was ultimately responsible
45:22the second is that the content of this
45:25person's confession doesn't have
45:27anything to do with the facts there's it
45:29it talks about a whole different group
45:30of people different places it just
45:31doesn't fit and you can tell that it was
45:33written by someone that wanted the
45:35content to fit the crime rather than
45:37someone who was literally investigating
45:39investigating a crime uh in your case
45:42did they make you go through different
45:44rounds of of recorded interviews to try
45:48to get you know and stop how do they how
45:50do they get the right recording
45:52there was uh two rounds uh the first one
45:55uh it was just amazing to me that I was
45:57second confession they wanted I was on
45:59on Auto Tech that I was a lookout that
46:01was pretty simple and it was like from
46:03the day before but then they wanted in
46:06front of it now they wanted me to be
46:08inside the Pizza Hut and that one was
46:10being recorded but because I didn't know
46:12if I actually had to stop the tape and
46:15say wait a minute wasn't it this color
46:17and I was guessing and I had this one
46:19that would they would stop and rewind
46:20the tape and then once they clarified it
46:23it would run then they would uh play
46:25were these were these audio tapes ever
46:27made available to you or your defense
46:29counsel in their entirety uh during the
46:31defense
46:33I would not I could not answer that I
46:36the one thing I will say but the one
46:39thing I will say once that did they were
46:41having the the the the the third out of
46:44your tape the second audio tape was they
46:46were having trouble because I didn't
46:48know the fact so at that point one of
46:50the detectors threw a chair at my head
46:52because he's got a frustrated because I
46:55was like getting it wrong
46:57and then at that point the other
46:58detectives said you know what why don't
47:00you we just type it so they started
47:03typing the confession the alleged to you
47:06know confession unbelievable impression
47:08and then so once that happened then I
47:12was arrested in there but I was later on
47:14years later when they when my I had
47:18civil attorneys uh um well one
47:21post-conviction process came up and then
47:23my attorneys the Innocence Project came
47:25in and tried to help me what they
47:28realized is that that one tape that I
47:30was saying though I was getting it wrong
47:32because right one tape that they wanted
47:34that for some reason was missing you're
47:42trying to figure it out because when we
47:43go into irrigation you gotta mark down
47:45the time they came in and came out
47:48so there was a four hour lap between you
47:51know the final case it was a four hour
47:53gap in there right that's what that's
47:56where it was so they actually so now in
47:59your case even that even that that
48:01wasn't enough to even get you a retrial
48:03or or an acquittal correct it it took
48:06because because my my defense attorneys
48:10dropped the ball they never investigated
48:13they never even bothered to look at the
48:16confession the facts to the fit the D.A
48:19the prosecutors didn't do her job either
48:22which is her job and you're going to get
48:24if your linchpin is that confession and
48:27we I'll most attorney and now I'm a
48:29practicing well I'm an attorney now you
48:31like you said earlier you cooperate
48:33these nothing was corroborated nothing I
48:36mean
48:37today this only falls apart because of
48:39DNA analysis project just starts right
48:42now Mr Mr Ocho there was actually uh
48:44what also contributed was a a confession
48:46right by Mr uh Akeem Marino
48:50um right and he he he he confessed
48:52apparently he confessed in a series of
48:53letters that were disregarded including
48:55one to to George Bush when he was the
48:57governor he titled the murder confession
48:59uh but even that didn't didn't
49:01immediately result in your release or
49:03retrial is that correct is that that's
49:06correct uh I went to uh prison in about
49:0819. I actually got one convicted and
49:12they sent me to the prison 1990
49:14this guy started I think uh confession
49:17in 1996 and I didn't I didn't get a
49:21visit from the police department until
49:221998.
49:23unbelievable you know but even then they
49:26were not trying to clear me they were
49:28trying to link me and Richard to the sky
49:31unbelievable there was no no links to be
49:34made uh then once the vet at 98 when
49:37they came and questioned me I was a lot
49:39smarter than I was older I just shut
49:41down because there I just said you know
49:43what I did and I did tell him you know
49:46what because I so this was two reasons I
49:48did this I said number one you start to
49:51play that bad cop good cop I don't want
49:52to talk to you and you know what I did
49:54this I did the crime let me do my time
49:56the two reasons why I said that because
49:58Washington I saw the Shawshank
50:00Redemption while in prison and I know
50:02how that ended I said wait a minute if I
50:06started behind my mind a life started
50:08saying that I'm innocent to these guys
50:10what if they have something that that
50:12they'll destroy that proved my innocence
50:14I just want them to think that I'm still
50:16claiming this so I mean I ended there
50:19and I ended the interview
50:21and and immediately I I went to try to
50:24get a hold of Barry Shack
50:26and then that led me to Wisconsin the
50:29Innocence Project then they stepped in
50:31and then but what I realized later that
50:34police the detective and it was a Texas
50:36Ranger that came to see me um to talk to
50:38me you know well little did I know is
50:42that that that those two guys were
50:44actually they they smell something funny
50:46when they actually that detectively
50:49reinvested he saw he started actually
50:51looking at the confession and there's no
50:55way that's pretty admirable it means
50:58that that there's individuals it's not
51:00there's it's not all bad apples it's it
51:02there's individuals who go to this job
51:04because they believe in this job and
51:05they're willing to even you know call
51:07call into question the conduct of their
51:09comrades if in order to effectuate in
51:11order to effectuate Justice
51:14um one thing that the uh that we deal
51:16with that I've come to learn especially
51:18I do a little bit of a pro bono practice
51:19with with
51:20um uh some exoneries and releases and
51:23there seems to be
51:25um uh as a common occurrence
51:28dealing with uh to an exonerate is the
51:31infliction of PTSD or post-traumatic
51:33stress uh disorder do you believe that
51:36that's that that's true and was any uh
51:39training provided therapy provided to
51:41you by the state and and what could we
51:43do to to these people who are now being
51:46released after periods of confinement
51:47for crimes they didn't commit
51:49I think that's the I think the there is
51:52currently no therapy no psychology I
51:55mean I didn't really have to pay out of
51:56my own pocket out of a lawsuit there I
51:58was successful on
51:59but there is no therapy I think there's
52:01some states that are starting and maybe
52:03go and there's people lobbying different
52:06state legislators and that's one thing
52:09I've been out of me when I do go Lobby
52:11for either uh uh DNA statue or anything
52:15to try to help assist them and one thing
52:17I tell these lawyers that are lobbying
52:19or whoever is not lawyer but you know
52:20people the groups are like you've got to
52:22address the therapy nobody's giving us
52:25therapy PTSD is real I was diagnosed
52:29with severe PTSD one of the worst cases
52:31this psychiatrist ever seen has ever
52:33seen
52:34um he didn't he I there he he pretty
52:39much in my reports the report said it's
52:42it's going to be difficult for me or
52:45anybody on a foot that that's that that
52:47you know is coerced into a false
52:49professional cops manipulate them
52:52because they're in a position of
52:53authority I now don't trust even the
52:57doctor therapist sure that makes that
52:58makes total sense
53:00so as never in this that's going to be
53:02what you did and and I try to deal with
53:04it as much as I can I'm really very
53:06fortunate that I had the support that I
53:09had wonderful uh civil attorneys
53:11wonderful post-conviction attorneys that
53:14were there and a lot of exoneries that's
53:15all they have is the the Innocence
53:19Project the attorneys are very old but
53:22it's not the state just throws us out no
53:25no money uh even like Parolees get more
53:28benefits and you get and you get you get
53:31no you have I have no no network no
53:33support the years lost of Education it's
53:35not like it was probably easier for you
53:37to get a job I mean it sounds pretty uh
53:39but what you do is what you did was
53:41become a lawyer one
53:51of my lawyers profile is going to be
53:52released he was sat me down he said
53:55Chris this is um this case when it
53:58unravels in the media because it was
54:00pretty pretty prominent even in and have
54:03people in China or people from overseas
54:05know about the case
54:07people especially the next day they're
54:08going to be troubled because you had
54:10never been in trouble and there is going
54:12to shake people's faith in the system in
54:14the legal system he said but you don't
54:17have to do it but it would be nice if
54:19you came out and said hey you know try
54:20to you know don't try to uh try to speak
54:24if you know see you know it's like it's
54:27not the system is not well did you the
54:30people let me asked I mean I mean did
54:32you lose faith I mean do you think it's
54:34a broken system or do you think it's a
54:35system that that that works and that
54:37that that that that has some some flawed
54:40players or some flawed occasional
54:41political motivations what do do you
54:44think it's a broken system or is it one
54:45that just needs to be how would you
54:47describe it
54:48I think it is to be tweaked I think
54:51the system the justice system and the
54:54way the founding fathers of this country
54:55you look at it whether it's checks and
54:58balances or among the government
54:59branches uh in the adjusting system the
55:02same thing you've got the prosecutors
55:04you that's why it's an adversary system
55:06you get the prosecution of defense
55:07attorneys everybody trying to look over
55:10you know trying to catch it but I think
55:13some some of the players in the system
55:15get caught up either va's
55:18politics they want to get a conviction
55:21so that they can they can when you know
55:23they can win election uh police officers
55:26want to get uh promoted uh and I'm not
55:29saying everybody in the system is like
55:31this but defense attorneys they're jaded
55:34you know they've done it too long they
55:36don't know when to get out so they don't
55:38do the actual effort but this is from
55:41its design it is one of the best systems
55:43in the country it's got to be it's
55:45whatever it's it just needs to be
55:47tweaked yeah that is such an admirable
55:49thing to hear from someone who is
55:52subjected to to what what you were
55:55subjected to
55:57um do
55:59you have any advice uh for people uh who
56:03are incarcerated but but maintain their
56:05innocence or for the loved ones of
56:07individuals uh who who are incarcerated
56:10and maintain their innocence
56:12well I think that I I think is the best
56:16thing you can do is uh the loved ones if
56:19you feel that your loved one or your
56:21relative your brother's son uh husband
56:23whatever wife or daughter is there in
56:26that situation just uh reach out to the
56:29Innocence Project
56:30and you know the Innocence Project they
56:33have projects now
56:3512 years 13 14 years out they now have
56:38pretty much missed his projects all over
56:40the country
56:41and where if your loved one is in
56:44California you've got Innocence Project
56:46in San Francisco you got one I think but
56:49you got one and there's some several of
56:51them in California so since we've got a
56:54couple of them uh Wisconsin's got to
56:56come in we've got the big one in New
56:58York that's in the flagship and but
57:01they're all public they're even setting
57:03up Renaissance projects in Australia in
57:05uh uh it's impressive but but also it
57:09it's also I mean these people can write
57:11a letter to the Innocence Project but
57:12the Innocence Project is you know is is
57:14is is in it is is pretty inundated what
57:17what do you wish what were some of the
57:19most supportive words that you ever
57:21heard from your loved ones uh while you
57:24were inside
57:25the biggest support is the worst thing
57:28the first thing that they never they
57:30they never gave up on me they were there
57:32and the one thing my dad taught me and
57:35see you know what they look future with
57:37this but you know what you just you
57:39behave in prison
57:40show them that you're not that type of
57:42person don't go act like a knucklehead
57:44just do remember it says heart show them
57:48the human mouth is animal that they say
57:57well even even more even more than that
57:59than a model prisoner I mean Mr Ochoa
58:01what you endured is is incomprehensible
58:03it's just incomprehensible to me but the
58:05fact that you're willing to speak about
58:06it to share your story is not only
58:08incredibly admirable on your part but
58:10hopefully it will bring about change not
58:12only as far as quality and caliber of
58:14Defense but oversight and prosecution uh
58:17in making and hopefully making skill
58:19sets available to individuals upon
58:21release thank you so much for what
58:22you're doing and thanks for being on my
58:24show thank you so much thank you you're
58:26welcome all right well that's going to
58:28wrap up our show thank you for joining
58:29us thank you for listening in a very
58:31warm thank you to our guests Cynthia Orr
58:33and Christopher Ochoa if you want to
58:35follow what we do uh go to
58:36renovatejustice.com and if you have any
58:39thoughts or any comments send those to
58:40me a change at renovatejustice.com I
58:43also maintain a Blog at trialfean.com
58:45and you can contact me directly at
58:47wallaclegal.com special thanks to our
58:49producers Mark Goldman and Ryan
58:51McCormick in New York and remember folks
58:53let's keep using our heads let's stop
58:55using our hate I'll see you next week
59:18[Music]
59:30foreign
59:38[Music]
59:41foreign

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