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Von 10k auf 670.000€ p/m in 31 Monaten (als B2B Unternehmen) — Transcript

by Stefan Graf · 17,223 words · 2,544 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00It is by far the toughest and most
0:01difficult thing to be self-employed and
0:03build a company—suddenly having 3 or
0:054 good employees. Building up that
0:07first 50 to 100k in monthly revenue is
0:09by far the most tedious and exhausting
0:10thing in the business world, because
0:12you are alone, there’s no momentum,
0:14you’re lonely. It’s just tedious
0:15and exhausting; everything is always
0:17easier once the machine is running. You
0:18will experience this once you have a
0:20machine that is running for the first
0:21time, where you just have to pour more
0:22into it. You have to maintain this
0:24momentum wheel with all your might so
0:26that it doesn't stop turning and you
0:27keep pushing constantly. What a lot of
0:29people do is try to do way too much at
0:31once, doing many things but none of
0:33them properly. When I know what the one
0:34thing is that moves the needle, I focus
0:36hardcore on doing those things in a
0:37disciplined way. If I set my mind to it
0:39, I do it. Period. Period. Yes,
0:41willpower moves things, willpower
0:43creates things. If you have the will to
0:45achieve something and you stick with it
0:47. A strong enough will creates things,
0:49and having a clear focus is incredibly
0:52valuable. That is also the reason why
0:54certain clients we have come in at 20k
0:56per month and then close 133,000 euros
0:58in revenue nine months later. Alright,
1:00let's get started. This will likely be
1:03the most personal, perhaps even the
1:05most emotional conversation about the
1:07history of Heartbeat Consulting. And we
1:10are sitting here now, and Heartbeat
1:12Consulting has over half a million in
1:14monthly revenue. Heartbeat was founded
1:18just 30 months ago and consists of a
1:20team of 25 members. And today we are
1:24sitting here to look exactly at the
1:26origin story, the challenges behind it,
1:28and what one might have done
1:30differently. We’ll go through that
1:33exactly with Stefan, since you as CEO
1:35built the company, what challenges
1:37there were, and maybe we can start with
1:39how the whole thing began. Yes, we’re
1:41sitting at the point where the company
1:43is now. Yes, and everyone always just
1:45sees what is there at the moment.
1:47We’ve known each other for 11 or 12
1:49years in this segment. I’ve followed
1:52your journey as well. Maybe just take
1:54us back to the point at the very
1:55beginning. What was it that you said
1:58you started with? Yes, that might have
2:00been the origin of Heartbeat Consulting
2:02. Names have changed, people have
2:05joined. Um, what was it that you say
2:09was the origin, the real start of
2:11Heartbeat?
2:11Well, it actually started back then
2:13with an enthusiasm for personal growth
2:15and development. Yes. I attended a lot
2:17of Tony Robbins seminars and events,
2:19and the idea back then was to make
2:21personal development mainstream; that
2:23was the core thought, and then for six
2:25months, we didn't really do anything
2:26productive for the company. We did work
2:28a lot, we thought we were working, but
2:30I wouldn't call what we did back then
2:32work today. We were trying to record
2:34some YouTube videos at the time. We did
2:36all sorts of things that didn't move
2:38the business forward. We didn't have a
2:39clear offer structure for what we were
2:41selling or marketing. We didn't have
2:42any sales process at all, nor any
2:44structured marketing or lead generation
2:46. What we did all day, at the end of
2:47the day, was try to record some videos,
2:49wasting time on various ideas, concepts
2:51, and other things, even though the
2:52basic intention back then was I think
2:54similar to today. Yes, helping people
2:56move forward, developing people, making
2:58people better. The execution back then
3:00was just a bit difficult and we had
3:01absolutely no plan, and after 6 months
3:03of being productive, I think we made a
3:05total of € 140 in revenue.
3:06How many years ago was that now? So
3:09when was that roughly, and was that
3:11personal development coaching or?
3:13Back then it wasn't really coaching
3:14that we were doing, but rather events,
3:16and well, events—we just invited
3:18people to our apartment and gave some
3:20kind of small talk or whatever. We
3:21didn't really have any consideration
3:23for what product we were selling
3:24because that wasn't really the point.
3:26That was about years ago, and back then
3:28we started with no skills—no
3:29marketing understanding, no sales
3:31understanding, zero plan on how to
3:33position yourself—and the only thing
3:35I would say I understood reasonably
3:37well back then was how to handle all
3:39those productivity routines. But I
3:40would really only limit that to working
3:42efficiently. I knew how to work
3:44efficiently. I had no plan for what was
3:45productive, what was truly effective,
3:47what the tasks were, the things that
3:49really move the needle, you know, the
3:51needle movers? And yes, even today I
3:53would say that is what a great many
3:54self-employed people simply don't
3:56understand and don't do correctly. Yes,
3:58they work on absurdly wrong things and
4:01can spin in circles for years. And we
4:03just had an extremely hard drive, an
4:05extremely strong pull and push, and
4:07through that, we eventually got to
4:09learn more and more what things make
4:11sense and what doesn't, and were thus
4:13able to achieve a faster growth curve.
4:15Yes, and the first thing we really sold
4:17that generated revenue back then was
4:18productivity coaching for entrepreneurs
4:20. Yes, that means we showed various
4:22entrepreneurs—any kind of
4:23entrepreneur at the beginning—how to
4:25be more productive. Yes, because that
4:26was really the only skill. that I would
4:28say we had at the time. Yes, that
4:30worked somewhat poorly. We gained a few
4:32clients here and there. We didn’t
4:34have a plan for constant lead
4:35generation. Back then, we ran into
4:37coaches who said ads are the only way
4:39you can acquire new clients. So we
4:40spent something like 5k a month on ads
4:42and made 7,000 euros in revenue with it
4:44, sometimes 10,000, whatever. Then you
4:46have the coaching costs on top of that,
4:48the costs for your own living, and you
4:50can imagine how quickly—um—yes, how
4:52quickly debt is built up and how
4:53quickly a lot of things fail. And that
4:55was exactly the beginning at the time,
4:57so to speak.
4:58Productivity coaching for entrepreneurs
5:00. What was the biggest bottleneck back
5:02then? Would you say that it didn't work
5:06out, and that's why you decided not to
5:07stick with that model or that offer?
5:11What was the change there?
5:12I think the main thing was simply lead
5:14generation; we never really understood
5:16how it worked. We never had a constant
5:18flow of new prospects, because if we
5:20had, we might not be doing what we’re
5:22doing today, but rather productivity
5:23gurus, or whatever. Yes. Um, but we
5:26never really figured out how leads
5:27actually work and just had a lot of
5:29limiting beliefs back then. On the
5:31other hand, people—we didn't even
5:32know back then that something like cold
5:34calling even worked these days. Yes, we
5:36thought it didn't work at all. Yes, and
5:38what we were always ready to do, I
5:39would say, was everything to make it
5:41work. Yes, I recently told a team
5:43member that. Yes, five years ago we
5:44didn't have any abilities, no skills
5:46that were in any way valuable, really.
5:48Yes, and through sheer will and hard
5:50work and the determination not to give
5:52up, all these skills were built up, yes
5:55, from sales to marketing to leadership
5:57and so on and so forth. And I think
5:59what is simply crucial is, first, to
6:01really push through and do the work and
6:03focus on the few things that actually
6:05move the business forward. And in the
6:08beginning, you need some kind of clear
6:10offer structure, a clear offer, and
6:11then you have to fix and master lead
6:13gen and figure out how it works, and
6:15sales; once you manage that and the
6:16first euros start coming in, then you
6:18have to make sure more comes in and
6:20that it works better. And if you take
6:22us, for example, back then, if only I
6:24had known that ads were a thing that
6:26worked, in quotes. At some point, I
6:28developed the belief that it couldn't
6:29really work. Yeah. Which is often,
6:31which is always. Yeah, the
6:33thing is, it kind of worked, but I just
6:36didn't understand how I could make it
6:38much, much, much, much, much, much
6:40better so that it works great. Yeah,
6:42and I thought we had already used every
6:44magic trick there is, and it just
6:46doesn't work. Yeah, and that’s always
6:48the thing we often see with clients,
6:50when. For example, doing cold calling
6:52for the first time, running ads for the
6:54first time, whatever: always this
6:55belief that it doesn't work, belief
6:57that it's impossible, or the belief
6:58that I've already maximized everything,
7:00it must be that thing, it must be the
7:02ads, the lead gen, whatever. Yeah,
7:04sometimes it's really just doubling
7:06down and truly mastering things, just
7:08focusing on watching all the YouTube
7:10videos, buying some coaching, whatever,
7:13to master the thing and achieve it well
7:15with maximum expertise. Once you've
7:17really figured that out, you should
7:19have good lead gen, at least 30k a
7:21month as a freelancer or doing it solo.
7:23That's obviously not revenue, not
7:25profit, clearly, but you still have a
7:26vehicle that works and runs, and then
7:28you can start hiring people. Yeah, and
7:30that was the case for us; we never
7:31outsourced lead gen properly and still,
7:33because we thought we wanted to grow,
7:35we hired someone anyway. That was
7:36obviously the biggest waste of money
7:37ever after three months, and we fired
7:39them again because there was no
7:40structure for it and it didn't bring
7:41anything. It wasn't the person's fault,
7:43but our leadership, structures, and
7:45processes, and that’s exactly how we
7:47spun in circles for a bit and had real
7:49difficulties, I think for over a year,
7:51a year and a half, generating enough
7:53demand. Mm. Were you aware back then
7:56that lead generation was the bottleneck
7:58, or what were the bottlenecks you saw
8:00at the time where you said, okay,
8:02that's what I worked on? Did you really
8:04work consistently on lead generation,
8:06or is it perhaps the other way around?
8:08I think many, um, even those who are
8:10with us now, they aren't aware, I
8:12believe, that lead generation is the
8:14engine and they are possibly working on
8:17the offer, um, on these structures.
8:19Yeah, would you say the same, that that
8:21well, I would say it was, I mean, I was
8:24quite aware of it for a long time. But
8:26what I wasn't aware of was that every
8:28other activity I do is the biggest
8:30waste of time ever. For example, I
8:32designed many courses back then, yes,
8:34built concepts on how you could do the
8:36whole thing and so on. But it wasn't
8:37clear to me in my understanding that
8:39this was the biggest, that I could also
8:40be doing nothing at all. Yes, and if I
8:42say now, okay, how much time am I
8:43really investing so that we get better
8:45at lead gen, that this skill is
8:46improved, if I view that as my day and
8:48that is the only thing I can really
8:50count as work, yes, and the rest is
8:51more or less just free time, then I
8:53would say looking back: "Okay, I had
8:54almost a whole day of free time." I
8:56worked all day, but on the wrong things
8:58, and if you work on the wrong things,
8:59you just don't move forward at all. Yes
9:01, that was I think the main thing back
9:03then, not having the understanding of
9:05what it means to work on the right
9:07thing. I was aware, lead gen, I was
9:09aware of that, I just didn't fully
9:11understand what I had to do to move
9:12forward, and nobody really showed or
9:14told me back then either. I'd also say
9:16the information available on the
9:18internet nowadays wasn't as great and
9:19good back then, but we simply worked on
9:21the wrong things. Yes, that was the
9:23core element.
9:24Then that paired with the duration, so
9:26we really didn't work on it long enough
9:28and intensely enough. Thinking, we’ll
9:30run ads now and it will work., ads
9:32don't work. That was all a bit too fast
9:34, and then eventually, after many, many
9:36failed attempts and things that didn't
9:38work, the thought finally came: okay,
9:40it has to be the offer. And then I
9:42started with offers, and in between I
9:43considered whether I should do sales
9:44training, or do this, or do that, and
9:45back then—I remember this—I had the
9:47idea of referrals, like referral
9:48training, we’ll position ourselves as
9:49referral experts for an incredibly long
9:51time, at least in my perception back
9:52then, it took a really long time, like
9:53a year, a year and a half, whatever,
9:55but when it's a lot of work and it
9:56doesn't bring results, it feels like a
9:57long time. Yeah, at some point I
9:59reached the point where, okay, it has
10:00to be an offer, and that’s a
10:02dangerous phase, I think, because once
10:04you start doing something, it becomes a
10:06habit, it felt like every four weeks I
10:07had a new shiny object, okay, I have to
10:09do this offer now. Okay, I have to do
10:11this offer now. And I think that went
10:13on for three or four months, where I
10:14changed what I was doing every three or
10:16four months. Yeah, because the solution
10:18lies in the offer and not so much in
10:20lead gen anymore. Yeah, and that’s
10:22obviously something that’s difficult,
10:24because the more you do something, the
10:26more normal it becomes. If I keep
10:27jumping offers, it becomes more normal
10:29for me to jump offers. It’s the same
10:31with job hoppers. Yeah, when people are
10:33job hoppers, like they apply to you and
10:35you notice they’ve changed companies
10:37every six months to a year or a year
10:39and a half. Those are job hoppers. Yeah
10:41, and the more you are like that, the
10:43more you become that way. Yeah, the
10:44more you do something, the more you
10:46become that way. If you are a lawyer
10:48who spends the whole day suing people
10:49and fighting with them, then you become
10:51a person who probably likes to fight
10:53more and enjoys suing more people. Yeah
10:55, for example, and if you create
10:56happiness and joy with people, then you
10:58become more like that, and if you’re
11:00a nurse all day, I don’t know, and
11:01you care for people, then maybe you
11:03become even more caring, yeah, you work
11:04on you more than you work on it. And if
11:06you start offer jumping, then you
11:08become more of an offer jumper, and
11:09that’s a bit like a drug, a pattern
11:11that you have to break, I think, where
11:13many people are simply mistaken. And in
11:15that case, I think the most sensible
11:16thing in my world is to get a
11:18consultant who will show you how it's
11:19done, and you just have to commit to it
11:21. Because we always see some clients
11:24who believe they have to jump around,
11:26so we always throw our lasso to pull
11:28them back in, so they don’t hop from
11:30offer to offer and change things every
11:32three weeks. And even very successful
11:35entrepreneurs, or those who are quite
11:38good, also like to engage in jumpy-jump
11:40actions.
11:40I think many companies that are already
11:42further along aren't fully aware of
11:44this. What would you advise your former
11:48self, perhaps as a routine or a to-do,
11:50to get out of this trap of spending all
11:53day not really working on things that
11:55move the company forward? Because we
11:59see so many clients coming to us who
12:01work a lot and want to succeed—it's
12:02not a lack of motivation, but simply
12:04that they are working on the wrong
12:06things and therefore aren't making
12:08progress. Yes,
12:09you said. Exactly, that was the case
12:11for you back then, too. I can also
12:13remember podcasts, newsletters,
12:15Instagram stories, whatever. Yes,
12:19accordingly, what would you tell your
12:21former self now, perhaps as a routine,
12:23so that the person—your old Stefan—
12:26stays focused and works on the relevant
12:28things? An important foundation is
12:30simply to be very convinced of your own
12:32offer. Basically, at the beginning,
12:33many people ask themselves, can what
12:35I'm doing actually work? Yes, can this
12:36become a big company? I would just do
12:38something where there are already great
12:40examples to follow. That means you
12:41perhaps shouldn't start a Reels agency
12:43or a short-form agency only for
12:45red-headed women as your target group,
12:47because there is probably no—I don't
12:49know—3 million company in Germany
12:50that only targets red-headed women for
12:52a Reels agency, but maybe, for example,
12:54a recruiting agency, of which there are
12:56many large ones. Yes, I know, the
12:58market is a somewhat competitive market
13:00. It could be something else, but I
13:02would just choose an offer where you
13:03don't have to reinvent the wheel, so
13:05that you don't have to question it. The
13:06only thing you would have to question
13:08there is your execution. That already
13:10gives you a bit more security. Yes,
13:11because even now, I don't know any
13:13really big productivity coach for
13:15entrepreneurs; I just don't know any.
13:16And the biggest one, I think, is
13:18someone who calls himself an "executor"
13:20or something like that. No idea what
13:21kind of revenue they make. I don't
13:23think they make more than 150k to 200k
13:25in monthly revenue. Yes, and that's why
13:27I don't think it's a truly sustainable,
13:29perfectly scalable offer. But there are
13:31many other offers that work well. Focus
13:33on one that is good. You then build up
13:35conviction by doing more. That means,
13:37for example, let's say you run ads for
13:39coaches as a service, educate yourself
13:41intensively on that topic. This builds
13:44up certainty, develops your skills, and
13:46makes you more convinced. That is
13:48probably two hours a day. And the rest
13:50is dedicatedly focused on lead
13:52generation. Yes, if you cannot generate
13:54leads, then you have to focus on that
13:56massively. Yes, all the time you have,
13:58apart from fulfillment time—
14:00fulfillment time I will put aside for
14:01now, I'll explain later how to do that,
14:03but basically all the time you have
14:04goes to lead generation. If you run ads
14:06, go all in on ads, learn creatives,
14:08learn how you have to do it, watch
14:09videos on it, educate yourself in that
14:11area, and so on and so forth. Watch how
14:13others run ads, learn copywriting; you
14:15have to truly master and do that. Four
14:17hours a day, get really, really good.
14:19That is how you develop skills. If it
14:21is cold calling or outbound, whatever
14:24it is. Do that all day, every day. Do
14:26that constantly, continuously, and
14:28educate yourself there too. Train
14:30yourself in that area. Yes, meaning buy
14:32consultations, coachings, whatever it
14:34takes for these topics. Yes, and it is
14:36not just that you have to buy one and
14:37then okay, it must have worked now,
14:38because I can tell you, until lead
14:40generation worked for us the first time
14:41, we had bought I think five
14:42consultations, yes, whatever it takes.
14:44But the important thing is not to stop,
14:46because I can tell you, firstly, there
14:47are really good companies, like ours
14:49for example. Secondly, it is also not
14:50always the case that everything has to
14:52work perfectly immediately. Sometimes
14:54you have to stay at it constantly. Yes,
14:55for example, a client of ours, we ran
14:57ads with him, it took I think three and
14:59a half, four months of the ads running
15:01before he got his return on investment,
15:03but now he just closed 40,000 € in
15:05revenue within a week with a 4K offer,
15:07yes, in the executive coaching sector.
15:09Therefore, it is not just black and
15:11white. It is something that needs to be
15:13built and done properly. And therefore,
15:15invest your time in a dedicated and
15:17focused way there. If you then manage
15:19to generate appointments, five to ten
15:20appointments per week or leads that you
15:22can call and say: "Hey, are you
15:24interested?" And somehow, once you have
15:26achieved that, invest all your strength
15:28, time, and energy into mastering sales
15:30and learning sales if you can't do it
15:32yet. Do roleplay with others, watch
15:34sales courses, and get sales reviews
15:36from someone. Maybe there are good
15:37coaches out there like us who can do
15:39sales reviews for you, yes, and so on
15:41and so forth. Make sure you just get
15:42massively better at sales, because the
15:44better you become at this skill, the
15:46better the impact on all other
15:47entrepreneurial skills, and always
15:49focus only on the bottleneck. If you
15:51haven't fixed lead gen yet, don't give
15:53a damn about sales. You don't need a
15:55sales script, you don't need anything.
15:56Get leads first. Master that once, and
15:58then move on to the next step. Only
16:00once you have created the flow behind
16:02it, and therefore don't try to make
16:03everything perfect. You don't need an
16:05infinitely scalable product at the
16:06beginning either. You don't need the
16:08perfect video course that has to be
16:09finished to sell it in combination with
16:11coaching. Just start selling your time
16:13and make sure you can sell that
16:15properly. Do that first of all. Master
16:17sales, and then the game is on, and
16:19then you can do various other things.
16:21And if you are making some revenue now
16:23and have a few clients, you shouldn't
16:24fall into this mode: Okay, I'll only do
16:26fulfillment from now on, and I think
16:28that's the solution. No, you can
16:29probably solve fulfillment in 3 to 4
16:31hours a day if you're making 3, 4, or
16:335k a month. Yes, then do it at the end
16:35of the day, and at the beginning, you
16:37have to do lead gen. Eat the frog. And
16:39if you don't do that, lie on the beach,
16:41chill in the garden, chill by the sea,
16:42do something else, but don't work,
16:44because that is a waste of time. If you
16:46aren't doing lead gen or sales,
16:47depending on where the bottleneck is,
16:49if you aren't doing that, everything
16:51else is a waste of time. And don't come
16:53up with the excuse that many always say
16:54: yeah, I have to take care of
16:56accounting, I have to manage the
16:57business, I have to look after
16:59insurance—yeah,. That is the
17:01biggest lie you are just feeding
17:02yourself. That isn't something that
17:04costs entrepreneurial time, unless you
17:06are investing that time in a completely
17:08unsmart way. Yes, I can tell you after
17:10advising over 500 independent
17:12businesses that this is not a relevant
17:14amount of time that goes into that.
17:16Therefore, there are no other
17:17priorities, and you should concentrate
17:19exclusively on those priorities,
17:21because that is not how I did it in the
17:23beginning. Yes, and once I learned to
17:25do that, to discipline myself to focus
17:26on the relevant things and not deal
17:28with anything else, from then on it
17:30suddenly started to work well, and from
17:32then on I did the right things, and
17:34that's when it gets fun and gains
17:35momentum.
17:36If we go back now, we were talking
17:38about productivity coaching, lead
17:40channels, bottlenecks, you jumped from
17:42one offer to the next until something
17:44finally worked. What was it that
17:46finally clicked in the end, the offer?
17:49Yes, when would you say there was
17:51momentum in it for the first time? Yes.
17:53That was the point, the turning point.
17:55A major deficit I had back then, I
17:56would say, exactly at that time before
17:58it started working for the first time,
18:00was shiny object syndrome. I didn't
18:02give things enough time or enough
18:04patience to stick with something long
18:05enough to see it through. That was a
18:07phase, I'd say 3, 4, 5 months, where I
18:09was really jumping back and forth
18:11between things, and I didn't have the
18:13habit of letting things play out long
18:15enough. And what was a lucky
18:16coincidence for me back then is that I
18:18joined forces with our former business
18:19partner at the time. I brought, I would
18:21say, good execution energy and sales
18:23energy to the table, and so did he. And
18:25what we did back then was: He had an
18:27offer, a social media marketing agency
18:29for SMEs, and we said, okay, let's turn
18:32this into a joint company. And what we
18:34simply did was: We did nothing else but
18:36take his old, ancient leads—from
18:38events or whatever he had—that were
18:39never called. I called them all, some
18:41didn't even have a clue who they were,
18:43I called them all, simply booked
18:44appointments, and then he did the
18:45closing calls. Then we did exactly that
18:47: with a webinar, with cooperation
18:49partners, and simply followed through.
18:50And then we just did a LinkedIn
18:52outreach campaign and messaged everyone
18:54, reached out, sent voice messages, and
18:56so on and so forth. We did lead
18:58generation, which I would say was—
19:00what for me, what for us back then—
19:02compared to the many failed attempts
19:04before, that system, which was our
19:06former partner, was practically the
19:08vehicle. Because of the twice as fast
19:11execution, we saw results faster. That
19:13was the first time. Because of that, I
19:15didn't have this shiny object syndrome.
19:16The second thing is that social media
19:18marketing was much easier to promote
19:19and market than productivity.
19:21So much easier, it was absurd. I called
19:23people up who were interested in
19:24productivity—just try convincing
19:26entrepreneurs about productivity. Yeah,
19:28maybe 5%of entrepreneurs want that, if
19:29even that, so it was just, it was just
19:31absurdly different. The offer was ten
19:33times better, 100 times better, even
19:34though it wasn't really great back then
19:35, it was still 100 times better. Yeah.
19:37Um, that's the second thing and the
19:39third was, well, that by giving each
19:41other accountability, so to speak, we
19:43kept each other from jumping around. A
19:46little bit. Yeah, I wouldn't say I had
19:47completely shed that back then, but I'd
19:49say we kept each other from doing it
19:51well. And then we just said: Okay, and
19:53I knew what I had to do. And once it
19:55worked, picking up the phone and
19:57calling people wasn't really a
19:58challenge for me back then. It was, and
20:00then we just did it in a brutal way and
20:02relatively quickly, because we clicked
20:03well together in terms of execution
20:05power, I remember in the first month we
20:07—Revenue, I believe we closed, then
20:0960,000, we got an office, hired setters
20:10, and so on and so forth, and then the
20:12machine was already turning. Yes, and
20:14then in a turning machine, everything
20:16is always easier. You will experience
20:18this when you have a turning machine
20:19for the first time that's running,
20:21where you just have to pour more in.
20:22You have to keep this momentum wheel
20:24going with all your might so that this
20:26wheel doesn't stop turning and you
20:27constantly keep pushing it, because
20:29momentum is extremely important. Today
20:31in our sales team just as much as back
20:32then. Yes, if momentum breaks, I do
20:34everything in my power to get that
20:35momentum back as quickly as possible,
20:37because that is the belief and the
20:38functionality at the core of everything
20:40, for you and for your team. That's why
20:41momentum is extremely decisive. That's
20:43what we did back then, so to speak.
20:45That means the three things were
20:46marketing on a marketing offer,
20:47basically what we offered was a
20:48marketing service that was
20:49significantly better than productivity
20:51for entrepreneurs. The second thing was
20:53: We simply provided each other with
20:55the accountability to always keep
20:57jumping in, and through our combined
20:58power, we produced results so much
21:00faster that these results sort of
21:02accelerated the feedback loop, so that
21:04the short-term impatience I suffered
21:06from so severely back then was no
21:08longer a problem. Then we tested many
21:10things together, saw what worked, and
21:12really doubled down on those; because
21:15we were good at execution, that was our
21:17first real momentum. That was back in
21:20Graz, Austria, and the agency scaled
21:23very quickly. Ultimately, up to 12
21:26employees very rapidly. What would you
21:28say was the bottleneck then? Yeah,
21:30because it sounds good now. At the end
21:32of the day, sales-wise, it worked well.
21:34You were both very skilled in sales.
21:36Where was the bottleneck that made you
21:38say, okay, it didn't scale further,
21:40because otherwise you wouldn't be here
21:42if you had continued with the agency.
21:45Back then, it was such that fulfillment
21:47had more or less nothing to do with me.
21:50So, it wasn't my responsibility, and I
21:52had nothing to do with it. And my
21:53ex-business partner's girlfriend at the
21:56time was primarily responsible for the
21:58fulfillment, and fulfillment is
21:59something where, just as we do it today
22:01, you should always do it like this:
22:03You should constantly consider how the
22:05product can be even better, how it can
22:07be even better, how it can be even
22:09better, and work on it intensively. Of
22:12course, you can't work on it 24/7 if
22:14you also have to do customer
22:15acquisition, but it's something that
22:17should have continuous improvement, and
22:19that just wasn't the case back then.
22:21Yes, that means we didn't have the
22:23understanding of it back then, and I
22:25didn't have it in my area of
22:26responsibility because I came in and I
22:28have a very strong drive for quality.
22:30Yes, and at some point, it became more
22:31and more clear—we built it up to 12
22:33employees in 8 months—but eventually,
22:35it became increasingly clear, hey, the
22:36quality isn't what I thought it was.
22:38And then the switch actually happened
22:39when we said, okay, let's just—we
22:41have really good customer acquisition,
22:43we mastered LinkedIn, we mastered
22:44webinars, we mastered sales, we did
22:45those things well. Let's just teach
22:47that to others and show others. At
22:49first, we tried doing LinkedIn
22:51marketing as a done-for-you service. We
22:54realized pretty quickly that it’s
22:55quite difficult. It’s complicated—
22:58with LinkedIn marketing, there are
23:00reasons why that’s the case, but the
23:02way we did it back then just made more
23:04sense to teach the client directly. So,
23:06we did intensive training with them,
23:08and that was basically our entry into
23:10the consulting space. That was our very
23:12first consulting project: LinkedIn,
23:15webinars, and then guided sales.
23:17Mhm. I see. I mean, agency and
23:19consulting—both are services, but
23:21still different. What would you say
23:25were the challenges of switching from
23:27an agency model to consulting? Yeah,
23:30what was it that you perhaps didn't
23:32know before you made that switch? Well,
23:34I mean, I had done consulting before,
23:36so I roughly knew how consulting worked
23:39and what the deal was. I would just say
23:41that from the beginning, in terms of
23:43responsibilities, it was clear that
23:45with consulting, I was more or less
23:46responsible for the fulfillment. And so
23:48I was able to stand 100%behind the
23:51product. We knew the product quality
23:52was good because I had had very, very
23:54bad experiences myself, and it's always
23:56been a major concern of mine that if we
23:58offer something, it has to be of
23:59absurdly high quality. And I believe
24:01that is now what distinguishes our
24:03company—that we have a very, very
24:05strong product focus and very high
24:06quality standards throughout the whole
24:08team, everywhere. Yes. Everyone just
24:11has a very, very strong focus on
24:12fulfillment, which is very, very
24:14different in many, many other
24:15consulting firms. And I think that was
24:17the main thing, that with the switch to
24:19consulting, it was clear more or less:
24:21"Okay, I have the responsibility for
24:23this," and that's why it worked a bit
24:25differently. Back then, the thought was
24:27, "Hey, an agency model is just rather
24:29difficult." That was my ex-business
24:31partner's view back then, that an
24:32agency is a difficult model. Actually,
24:34I wouldn't say at all that an agency is
24:35a difficult model. Quite the opposite.
24:37have. I would just say, as with
24:39everything, you have to constantly
24:41optimize in fulfillment and closely
24:43monitor people, making sure the quality
24:46is there, then it works, and not just,
24:48um, bungle things together. Yeah, and,
24:50um, that’s the thing. I think at the
24:53end of the day, all models work very,
24:54very well. Um, but the fact is: the
24:56responsibility, when it's there, and I
24:58think the, if you have a business
25:00partner, doing the fulfillment with
25:01that partner, they really should be the
25:03one responsible, um, especially in the
25:05early phases, definitely the one, the
25:07one who really cares that there is
25:09truly high quality in there, yes, and
25:10not the one who just wants to close
25:12people very, very quickly and then just
25:14move on, because that’s not quite the
25:16right attitude for product quality at
25:18the end of the day. Business partners
25:20is a very exciting, uh, exciting topic,
25:23I would say. People out there probably
25:25also have a business partner. Maybe you
25:27are also in a business partnership
25:29where you are not quite happy or maybe
25:31where the combination doesn't fit quite
25:33right. You said on one hand, okay, it
25:36is important with a business partner
25:38that one brings the same understanding
25:40of quality, that one perhaps also lives
25:42these same values, I would say. What
25:45are now, since you have also had
25:47experiences there. Yes. Yeah, and now
25:49we move on further into the into the
25:51journey after this consulting. What
25:53would you pass on to people who have a
25:54business partner, who are thinking
25:56about potentially parting ways with a
25:58business partner or entering into one?
26:00What are your learnings from that? Yeah
26:02,
26:02so I would say, a business partnership
26:04is actually very, very much like a, we
26:06are very in, so almost like a
26:08partnership, like a marriage, kind of.
26:10Yes. And I believe that in the
26:11beginning phase, many people throw
26:13themselves onto a partner too quickly;
26:14it was like that for us back then, too.
26:16super fast, just decided with them and
26:18said, we'll do this together. I also
26:20really had about four business
26:21partnerships before that didn't work
26:22out either. Yes, very, very many. So
26:24very, very many. Yeah, and I am still
26:26good friends with those people, but it
26:28just didn't work well, and some of
26:29those people are in part real killers,
26:31still real machines, but it just didn't
26:33work very well. And I believe the most
26:34important thing with business
26:36partnerships is basically, first of all
26:37, to take it very, very slowly and have
26:39a good getting-to-know-each-other phase
26:41, so you see, okay, how does it work,
26:42how does it run, how do you want it?
26:44Yeah, and then I think it’s just
26:45about how you want to be structured and
26:47positioned. Yes, we want to build very,
26:49very big things. Yes, we want to build
26:52a billion-dollar empire, and for that,
26:54we need people on board who are eager
26:55to go the long haul. Yeah, and not just
26:57, you know, once you have 5 million in
26:59assets, that you just chill out, sip
27:01coconuts on the beach, and enjoy life.
27:03Yeah, that doesn’t work. That means
27:05the final destination has to be as
27:06similar as possible, in my opinion, so
27:08that conflicts don’t arise. Yeah,
27:09because if one wants total freedom,
27:11total freedom, and the other wants
27:13growth, it just won’t work; value
27:14conflicts will come up in so many small
27:16decisions. Yeah, and that’s why I
27:18think it’s important to just have a
27:19common direction and a shared vision:
27:21where do you want to go and what do you
27:22want to be like? And then, I think a
27:24really crucial thing is the topic of
27:26values fit, yeah, that you just have
27:27this feeling like, I don’t know,
27:29disrespectful behavior really pisses me
27:30off if anyone treats someone else
27:32disrespectfully. Yeah, I don’t want
27:34that in our company. I don’t want
27:35clients to be treated disrespectfully.
27:37I don’t want team members to speak to
27:38each other disrespectfully. I just
27:39don’t think disrespect is very nice,
27:41even if that’s not a word, but
27:42respect—well, treating others
27:43disrespectfully is something I don’t
27:44like at all. And there are just many
27:46things that you might want or might not
27:47want. And I think it’s just really,
27:49really important and crucial to simply
27:51think for yourself: what do you want,
27:53how do you want it, and build it
27:55accordingly? And then I think at the
27:58end of the day it’s very, very
27:59sensible to have complementary skills
28:01rather than having exactly the same
28:03abilities and skills, because then
28:05it’s usually not all that useful.
28:08Yeah, and then I think it’s just
28:10about building the thing properly once
28:12and then not questioning it. Yeah. I
28:14think what many do wrong is, um, they
28:16start with someone and get going, and
28:18then they question it regularly. I
28:20think that’s just the thing. You
28:21should think carefully about whether
28:22you do it, start very slowly, and if
28:24you do, you should really commit,
28:25because with business partnerships—I
28:27have seen very few business partners
28:28who have split up, and I have seen
28:30quite a few from clients who have split
28:31up—and in very few of those cases did
28:33the company not completely fall apart.
28:34Actually, all of them always started
28:36from scratch, just like we did back
28:37then. Yes, we started from scratch
28:39because we separated from our
28:40ex-business partner, and in the process
28:42, the whole company more or less fell
28:43apart. Yes, and on both sides. Yes,
28:46well, our company, we had a 50/50
28:47company back then; he got more or less
28:49nothing out of it, and we got more or
28:51less nothing out of it. Yes, I mean,
28:52except for the skills, and actually
28:54everything broke apart during that, and
28:56that is actually what I see in every
28:58partnership that breaks up, and
28:59that’s why I believe the crucial
29:01thing in partnerships is to go into it
29:03much more slowly, get used to each
29:04other much, much, much more carefully,
29:06and see if it fits. And then, if it
29:08fits, then just commit and follow
29:10through. Because, for example, Charlie
29:12Munger and Warren Buffett are, I think,
29:14two very, very good examples of
29:15business partners who probably didn't
29:17regularly question whether they wanted
29:19to continue the path or not. And they
29:20had a magical life. Charlie Munger
29:22passed away and I think he had a very,
29:24very good life, he had all the money in
29:26the world he would ever need, because,
29:28I don't know, dying with 3 or 4 billion
29:30euros, I mean, that's not money anyone
29:32needs, it's not necessary. And they had
29:34a happy life, and I believe the people
29:36you work with in the phase from 20 to
29:3860, 70, depending on how long you want
29:40to work. Um, that is the time by far
29:43that you spend the most time with. By
29:45far, yes, that means with Gerno, for
29:47example, I spend 100 times more time
29:49than with my mother, my father, my best
29:52friends. I mean, Gerno is my best
29:53friend, but if you look at it outside
29:55of the working world, they are simply
29:57the people you spend the most time with
29:59by far. And that is why I think the
30:00decisive factor is simply that at the
30:01end of the day, you build things in
30:03such a way that you might want to walk
30:04the path together in the long term, and
30:06then just follow through and have fun
30:07and enjoy it, and make sure the picking
30:09is good at the beginning and that you
30:10make the right decision there. And even
30:12if it was a wrong decision at some
30:14point, I think it makes sense to
30:15address it and clear it up. But I think
30:17if you’ve been working together for,
30:19I don’t know, 3 or 4 years, then you
30:21should just push through and do it,
30:23because I believe that brings you the
30:24best long-term progress. I mean, I’ve
30:28had quite a few partnerships myself,
30:30have some experience in that sense, and
30:32looking back at your case, and if I
30:34apply it to myself: At the beginning, I
30:36think you’re like, okay, he’s a
30:38friend and he’s motivated, and I
30:40think you end up asking yourself the
30:42wrong questions accordingly. Yes. Yeah,
30:47maybe, I mean, you once said to start
30:50slowly. Yes, I understand what starting
30:53slowly means now. Okay, you don’t
30:55have to immediately, the first thing—
30:57in Austria that’s founding an LLC—
30:59you don’t have to do that together
31:01right away before you’ve started
31:02anything. Yeah, that can in that sense,
31:07it also touches on values from another
31:09perspective. I get the feeling that
31:14many people who enter into partnerships
31:16ask the wrong questions or think
31:17there’s a values fit and assume they
31:19have the same goal because they
31:21possibly don't envision the horizon far
31:23enough ahead. Yes, maybe they’re
31:26thinking about the next three years,
31:28and for the next three years, they have
31:29the same goal. Yes.
31:31What would you tell people, saying,
31:33okay, these are the questions they
31:34should ask to really check if there is
31:36a values fit? I think if you say, okay,
31:38values have to align and the goal has
31:40to align, many people think that’s
31:42correct, but they might still be going
31:44about it the wrong way.
31:45So, I think it comes down to a great
31:47many things. It comes down to daily
31:49life, how do you make decisions? How do
31:51you act, how do you work, if you are
31:53simply always in disagreement on so
31:55many issues and constantly have to
31:56argue and debate, and just have a
31:58completely different understanding? Or
32:00if you think: Man, why is he acting
32:02like that right now, regarding your
32:04business partner for example, and you
32:05can’t relate to it at all, then all
32:07of that is a bit of an indication that
32:09there are difficulties somewhere. Then
32:10you can talk about it, and you should
32:12address it, and then you have to see
32:13what the cause is, because maybe these
32:15are skills that aren’t developed,
32:16that you have to get used to, and then
32:18you just have to develop them. That
32:19could very well be. I think at the end
32:23of the day, what's decisive is simply
32:25that you are very, very focused on this
32:27long-term goal, that you have a common
32:29vision if you want to build something
32:31big. One person does, and the other
32:34doesn't. For example, a friend of mine,
32:36his goal is to build huge wealth,
32:38whatever, 500 billion, and he has a
32:40business partner who says that after 10
32:42million euros, he just wants to chill
32:44for the rest of his life. I think 5 to
32:4610 million, whatever, because if you
32:48invest 5 to 10 million euros at 7%
32:49interest, you can have around 30,000
32:51euros a month and you can live well on
32:53that in Germany or Austria, and you
32:55could live passively from that. That
32:57means if you have assets of 5 million
32:58and invest them somewhat smartly, then
33:00you can live passively from that, and
33:01that's his target, so to speak. And for
33:03one person that's the goal, and for the
33:05other it's something else entirely. Now
33:06just consider how different their
33:08actions must be. Yeah, the one might
33:09want to build big private equity things
33:11, buy companies and whatever, while the
33:13other just wants a coaching business,
33:15earn good money, and then chill and
33:17have a good life for the rest of his
33:19days. Yeah, and just think about how
33:21differently these people would act, how
33:22differently would they make decisions?
33:24How much, how different is it really?
33:26And if they have to be in the same boat
33:28together, they would always make
33:30decisions differently, always. Yes. And
33:32when you have to reach a joint decision
33:34, it's always this shitty compromise,
33:35some half-baked thing that's not really
33:37great in the middle, and at the end of
33:39the day, everyone wants something else.
33:41Or another example would be: if one
33:43person were ultra risk-taking, wanting
33:45to go all-in on everything and play
33:47Russian roulette with everything, and
33:49the other wants more security and
33:51prefers being rich safe rather than
33:53quick, so to speak. Yeah, that's also a
33:55difficult situation, because it always
33:57comes back to decisions, and if you
33:59always want to make decisions
34:00differently, then in my opinion, it
34:02becomes a real problem. Yeah, and
34:04that's not even talking about general
34:06communication styles and so on and so
34:08forth with human traits, which you
34:09often overlook because you have a
34:11partner and you look past it, but
34:13simply these long-term things. And
34:14therefore, if you have a partner, just
34:16ask yourself, ask each other the
34:17question: Is there anything you're no
34:18longer interested in, what is the goal,
34:20why do I work? Why do I work? What do I
34:22want? What do I want to achieve behind
34:23it all? And what things do I want to
34:25develop? And then I think it's super
34:26important that you do things together
34:28—if you do training, if you do
34:29development, whatever it is—that both
34:31are on board, that both develop these
34:33things. Because if only one—no idea,
34:35best example—if one reads books
34:36regularly and attends coaching sessions
34:38regularly and only one does it and the
34:40other doesn't, and one works 70 hours
34:42and the other 40: In 3 years they will
34:43be fundamentally different people,
34:45fundamentally different people. Because
34:475 and a half years ago I had no skills
34:49and abilities and today I have certain
34:51skills and abilities, and that's simply
34:53through a lot of effort, a lot of
34:54budget that we also invested, because
34:56we were ready to invest in coaching,
34:58consulting, whatever, in people, but
35:00also a lot of hard work and just a lot
35:02of will. that drives the whole thing
35:04forward, and if someone doesn't want to
35:05, then you can't force them. Yes, and
35:07that is just the same with employees as
35:08it is with business partners. Yes, if
35:10you have someone, an employee or a
35:11salesperson, who just doesn't feel like
35:13it and doesn't want to work hard and
35:14doesn't want to get ahead, you can't
35:15force them to be happy. That doesn't
35:17work. You can't force anyone. You can
35:19make the best possible out of them, but
35:20you just can't force anyone. And that
35:22is the same for business partners as it
35:24is for team members, only with business
35:26partners a much more complex business
35:27construct is built around it, which can
35:29destroy the whole thing. And that's why
35:31, again, we have so many clients with
35:33partners, ex-partners or whatever, and
35:35the separations are usually sometimes a
35:36bit more complicated because there's a
35:38lot of money at stake and so on and so
35:40forth. Therefore, if you have a partner
35:42, make sure you are on board together,
35:44that you have a common vision, want to
35:46drive something forward together, and
35:47if you are considering doing something
35:49with someone, be very calm, careful,
35:51try things out together, check it out,
35:53give yourselves a test period of 4, 5,
35:556 months. Yes, I know, it sounds ultra
35:57long at first. Yes, but regardless, if
35:59you’re thinking long-term and want to
36:01build a company in 5, 10, 15 years that
36:03might generate 100, 200, or 400 million
36:05in annual revenue, it pays off to
36:07consider that time horizon rather than
36:09doing something quickly, because if the
36:11foundation isn’t solid—and the
36:12foundation is always the beginning, at
36:14the end of the day, the founder
36:16structure and whatever else—if the
36:18foundation isn't good, then everything
36:20else becomes shaky and it won’t work.
36:22And that’s why I believe you should
36:24simply take enough time and not look
36:26for quick solutions or create fast
36:27things that won't lead to the desired
36:29outcome. We’ve been talking about
36:31partnerships. Yes, I’d say many
36:34people have the belief or desire to
36:36have a partner when they start, so they
36:38go looking. Yes, because starting out,
36:41self-employment is painful in that
36:44sense. Yes, you then desperately look
36:46for someone. Yes, you take what you can
36:49find in that sense, and it happens
36:51because where do you look—I also had
36:53a partnership in the agency when the
36:55skill sets were simply very, very, very
36:58similar. Accordingly, I would ask, what
37:01would you tell the people now who might
37:03be saying they are either just starting
37:05out or are perhaps at 10k and thinking
37:07about bringing someone on board? Is
37:10that something you would do now, or how
37:11would you go about making that decision
37:13? Yes, maybe even retrospectively. Yes,
37:16you can perhaps also look back at how
37:19you sought a partner back then. I
37:22basically believe that if you have
37:23absolutely no acquisition or
37:25client-winning skill set, you should
37:27build that up first. Um, if you have a
37:29partner in your circle whom you trust,
37:31with whom you are well-aligned in terms
37:33of values, and everything fits well,
37:35you could test it out by simply working
37:37together. You just do it—they bring
37:39in the revenue, and you split it
37:40fifty-fifty or however you want to
37:42divide it; I don't really care, but you
37:44make a split and just get it running.
37:45No corporate structure, nothing, just
37:47start working together and see how the
37:49whole thing functions. Yes. And um, you
37:52can definitely do that. Yes, at the
37:54same time I would say one thing. Um, I
37:57would say it is by far the toughest and
37:59most difficult thing to be
38:00self-employed and build a company.
38:02Suddenly having 3 or 4 good employees,
38:04not just having 3 or 4 employees and
38:06making 20,000 in monthly revenue, but
38:08building up the first 50 to 100k in
38:10monthly revenue is by far the most
38:12tedious and exhausting thing in the
38:13business world. Yes, because you're on
38:15your own, there's no momentum, you're
38:17lonely. It is simply tedious and
38:19exhausting, and if you have someone in
38:20your environment who can elevate that
38:22and help you move forward, and it’s
38:23truly a good fit, I think that’s
38:25something very, very good. Yes, because
38:26it simply increases happiness, improves
38:28structures, and so on and so forth. At
38:30the same time, however, I would also
38:32say that there are so many people who
38:35don’t do it that way; for example,
38:37Hardbeit would be impossible today,
38:39where it is now, if I hadn’t done it
38:41together with Sabrina. Yes, because we
38:43basically started there and we simply
38:46had more hands, I could implement more,
38:48we could push harder, and so on and so
38:50forth. And that’s why I do think that
38:53there’s one thing that isn't exactly
38:55easy, even with clients, when you look
38:57at who is always developing well,
38:59growing, and so on and so forth. Who
39:01are those who, especially in the
39:02initial phase when you are young, just
39:04have too many things where, if you are
39:06completely on your own, it can be a bit
39:08tough. And therefore, I believe that
39:10having the right partner is a good
39:11thing. I just think that making hasty
39:13decisions too quickly is not smart,
39:15doing tests is also sensible, and it
39:17doesn't have to be that if you do
39:19something at the beginning, it has to
39:21be forever, because you learn many
39:23things, you learn many things. Yes, for
39:25example, a friend of mine, Niklas, we
39:28spent two months doing our business
39:29together at some point. We are still
39:31very, very good friends today, and I
39:33was able to take away a few things from
39:35him regarding how he operates, and he
39:36took a few from me. Yes, and so I
39:38wouldn't say that it has to be super
39:39black-and-white, but I wouldn't say
39:41that what we did back then—feeling
39:42the need to immediately formalize
39:44everything legally, like partnership
39:45agreements and whatever else—is
39:47something I would recommend. Yes, but I
39:49generally believe that to reach that
39:51first level, say 100k monthly, I do
39:53think that when you're young, it is
39:55easier, significantly easier with the
39:57right partner. Significantly easier
39:59with the right partner, really, really
40:01many times easier.
40:04Right, if we go back into the storyline
40:07, that is a partnership that ultimately
40:09didn't work out, you built up
40:10consulting, you said you started from
40:13zero again, that was about 30 months
40:15ago. Yes, and ultimately now Hardbit is
40:20at over 500,000 in constant monthly
40:23revenue. How were you doing back then?
40:26Yes, and you say, and how did you start
40:28again and how was it possible? You say,
40:31okay, that is, many people might fall
40:33into a hole. Yes, and now it gets more
40:35interesting for many entrepreneurs who
40:38might be further along, because within,
40:40was it 30 days or 60 days, 100,000 €
40:43in monthly revenue was already back.
40:45Yes. Yes, how was the situation and how
40:48was it possible for you to regain
40:50momentum so quickly from such a painful
40:53situation?
40:54Well, back then it was just the case
40:56that we knew how to do it. That was a
40:58big advantage. Yes. And we knew how to
41:00perform in sales. I knew if Sabrina
41:02conducts the first call and I conduct
41:03the second call, I know exactly what
41:05the KPIs look like. That means I knew
41:07if Sabrina and I, so if Sabrina
41:08conducts the first call and I conduct
41:10the second call, then in this funnel,
41:12Sabrina needs seven first calls for us
41:13to win a new client. I knew that
41:15mathematically, I close very
41:16consistently. That means I knew it
41:18works 100%. We knew how to do lead gen.
41:20That was also relatively simple. But it
41:22was also clear that with two hands, and
41:24back then we didn't run ads, we only
41:25did outbound. I knew that with four
41:27hands at the end of the day, Sabrina
41:29and I, that wouldn't work for 100k. But
41:30what I also understood and knew is that
41:32I can recruit people relatively well,
41:34hire and manage them reasonably well.
41:36Worse back then than today, but still
41:37reasonably well. And what we simply did
41:40then is I knew, okay, mathematically,
41:42if I have seven first calls, then I win
41:45one new client. That means one first
41:47call brings me roughly, back then we
41:49had a price point of, I think 8,000,
41:519,000 €, something like that. I knew,
41:53okay, one initial consultation
41:55generates about € 1,200 in revenue
41:57for me. If I can manage to have other
41:59people book these initial consultations
42:02for me, and it only costs me about €
42:04200 in total, then I'll make good money
42:06. And I wondered, okay, given the
42:08process we use, how many appointments
42:10can someone who does lead generation
42:11actually generate, and how could that
42:13work? Then I just hired like crazy. We
42:16brought in five people who did LinkedIn
42:17outbound messaging and cold emailing.
42:19For these two activities, we brought in
42:21five people. We paid them strictly
42:23based on results. They got € 70 per
42:25scheduled initial consultation and €
42:26300 per new customer acquired. I, we,
42:28monitored them in the most structured
42:30way possible. We had daily meetings
42:32with them, I kept them really motivated
42:33morning, noon, and night, looked at
42:35KPIs and everything else with them,
42:37pushed them, celebrated successes, and
42:38so on and so forth. Some of those five
42:40people really followed through, others
42:42not so much, we swapped people out and
42:44so on, and with that, we got a full
42:45calendar, high intensity, and acquired
42:47customers super fast. And that was
42:49essentially how we built our outbound
42:51back then, the first outbound team we
42:53ever created, and the thing that gave
42:55me security was the metrics. Yes, I am
42:57a very logically oriented person who,
42:59when I understand how the numerical
43:01mechanisms work, when the processes are
43:03clear, when I have a recurring
43:04mechanical process. Meaning, I know,
43:06for example, if I send one LinkedIn
43:07message, how many of those, if I send
43:09ten LinkedIn messages, how many
43:10appointments do I get, and so on and so
43:11forth. If I have a clearly plannable,
43:13predictable process, then I know I just
43:15have to put in the input, and as long
43:16as it's my time being invested, I can
43:18do it, fine, but at some point, the
43:19time investment ends. I just knew, okay
43:21, I have to bring in more people to do
43:23this and I have to train them
43:25intensively, and since we build
43:26outbound processes by training the
43:28people as well, it was easy to train
43:30them and that's how we managed it super
43:32quickly. Were there ever doubts that it
43:34wouldn't work? Not really, because we
43:36knew exactly how it worked and operated
43:38in every process. Um, the only thing
43:40back then was, at first, when we
43:41essentially split from our ex-business
43:43partner, it was a bit unclear which
43:45direction to go, what we should do next
43:47. Once we decided exactly what we were
43:49doing, things actually moved along
43:50relatively quickly. In the beginning,
43:52we still had Corona, then we were
43:54knocked out for two weeks in January
43:55and then on the 15th. Of January or so
43:57we were both able to start working and
43:59then it took off.
44:00Mhm.
44:01I see. That sounds very technical, what
44:03you just said. Yes, but it also sounds
44:05like a very personal challenge. I think
44:08there are entrepreneurs out there who
44:10might also
44:10and I forgot one thing that isn't
44:12irrelevant to mention, sorry. Um, we
44:14didn't really have a big risk, um, or
44:17rather, the downside was covered. Why?
44:19Because from the cash flow of our
44:21previous joint ex-business partner, we
44:24had about 10, 15k cash flow monthly, um
44:26, net, so basically, no tax deduction,
44:28net cash flow. The second thing we had
44:30was, um, we had a cash reserve of, I
44:33don't remember exactly, but I think
44:35somewhere around 150,000 to 200. 000,
44:38something like that between 100 and
44:40200,000, somewhere around there. That
44:42means I knew if I hire now and
44:44everything completely goes to hell,
44:46then I've just sunk about 10k, 15k. But
44:49I know I'll get another shot without
44:50any problems. Yes, because in the
44:52beginning back then, at some point it
44:54was like: if you've built up more and
44:56more debt, then eventually the ceiling
44:58is reached where you can somehow take
44:59out more money, somehow finance more
45:01money. And therefore, we knew that even
45:04if we messed up with hiring, the impact
45:06couldn't be too crazy. Because quite
45:09realistically, the room for error was
45:12so big, even if we had paid € 200 for
45:14an appointment instead of € 1,200, we
45:16could have paid six times that and it
45:18would still have been neutral.
45:21Because we knew our own numbers and
45:22knew what we could produce ourselves.
45:25Okay, that means you already went into
45:27it with a certain amount of confidence
45:29accordingly. Yes, which many perhaps
45:32don't have now because they might not
45:34have the experience yet. Accordingly
45:37okay, and that's why you are also
45:39so that was also there, so we had
45:40planned, we would hit 100k after 60
45:42days, we had after 60, so we knew it
45:44was an Excel calculation, but we just
45:46had to implement it humanly and that
45:48was basically what we did.
45:49Mhm. What would you say, I mean, you
45:52had the technical knowledge now. Yeah,
45:55what would you say are the—I see a
45:58lot of personal traits that are beyond
46:00just technical topics, because many are
46:02very advanced technically and maybe
46:04know their stuff, but from
46:08from zero back then, after splitting
46:10with a business partner, to still
46:12manage to reach 100,000 euros in
46:14monthly revenue in that time. What
46:18would you say are the personal traits,
46:20perhaps in yourself that you also saw
46:22earlier, that others out there might be
46:24lacking to achieve that? Yeah.
46:27Yes, so I think one thing is definitely
46:29discipline, just seeing things through,
46:31which means simply doing things in a
46:32disciplined way. If I set my mind to it
46:34, I do it. Period. Period. Yes, if time
46:37doesn't allow for it, that can happen,
46:38but if I—it just doesn't happen that
46:40I set my mind to something and don't do
46:42it because I'm procrastinating it for
46:43ages or stuff like that. Yes, for
46:45example, LinkedIn, I just did it, end
46:47of story. Um, the second thing that I
46:49think was very, very strong back then,
46:51and it's still relevant today, is just
46:53having a bit of that security, of
46:55having another person. For me, it was
46:57back then with Sabrina, or for us back
46:59then with Sabrina and me, it was just
47:01having someone to talk to, to exchange
47:03ideas, where you're not alone. Yes, I
47:05think that is the second very, very
47:07fundamental thing. And I believe at the
47:09end of the day, what I was able to
47:11learn well through Tony Robbins or
47:13wherever, is also: don't let small
47:15failures pull you down too much, and
47:17celebrate small successes strongly and
47:19draw a lot of energy from them, because
47:21momentum is what is always extremely
47:23driving and decisive. Yes, and if you
47:26manage to create momentum and then just
47:28put on blinders, yes, and say you
47:30aren't doing anything else. I put on
47:33hardcore blinders. We didn't have any,
47:35we didn't do anything, no ads, we
47:36didn't do anything. We just did
47:38outbound on LinkedIn and cold mailing,
47:40because eventually LinkedIn didn't
47:42allow for more connections, and then we
47:43did the same thing we did via LinkedIn,
47:45via cold mailing. Yes, one-to-one, just
47:47purely focused on volume, blinders and
47:49volume, and cracking the whip so that
47:51the people put in more volume. That's
47:53it. That was all it was. Yeah, and um I
47:55think that's what a whole lot of people
47:57do, is they try to do way too much at
47:59once and do very few things properly,
48:00they do a lot of things, but not
48:02properly. Yeah, and our principle back
48:04then was hardcore. That can also
48:06probably be attributed very, very
48:07strongly to Alex Hormozi and his
48:09understanding, also Sam's. It’s
48:10simply: I didn't used to do it like
48:12that, but nowadays I’m very, very
48:14much: "One thing is what moves the
48:16needle," then I focus hardcore on that.
48:18Yeah, and that was the thing back then
48:20where we just said, we aren't doing
48:21anything else. Don't look left, don't
48:23look right, nothing else but that. And
48:25that’s exactly how we actually
48:26achieved it quite well. We also have
48:28many clients who are in relationships
48:30and are running a business with their
48:32partner. You said it was a very, very
48:34important element for you during the
48:36setup. Yeah, were there also challenges
48:39, would you say, exactly in that, and
48:41what would you tell people out there
48:43who might be having difficulties right
48:45now in that constellation, perhaps
48:47running a business with their partner,
48:49with their wife, with their husband?
48:51Yeah, what would you pass on to the
48:53people now, also from the long time
48:55you've already been doing this with
48:57Sabrina? Yeah,
48:59well, I think running a business
49:01together with your romantic partner, so
49:03husband and wife running a business
49:05together, is fundamentally a thing, but
49:07one disadvantage definitely comes with
49:09it in my world. You just talk an awful
49:13lot about work, and almost exclusively.
49:15You can't really switch off with your
49:16partner as well anymore, I would say.
49:18And I can't say what it's like
49:20otherwise, because I've basically
49:21always done it more or less with
49:23Sabrina. Um, but I would say that that
49:25is what is definitely gone because of
49:26it. You just can't really switch off
49:28with your partner anymore, yeah, um,
49:30not really well. Unless you’re, I
49:32don’t know, somewhere in the Maldives
49:33and you’ve cleared your head, or Bali
49:34, or wherever the hell, you’re
49:36changing your surroundings very, very
49:37significantly. Yeah, but for example,
49:38the best way to switch off for me is
49:40when I, I don't know, go play Padel or
49:42we do some kind of sport or something
49:43else. The best way to switch off is not
49:45when Sabrina and I are sitting at
49:47dinner, because I can't mentally, I
49:49feel like I'm just in extreme work mode
49:51there. Yeah. Um, that is definitely
49:53something that I think you just have to
49:55be consciously aware of. And the other
49:56thing is to separate relationship and
49:58work matters in your head as much as
49:59possible. Yes. and have a clear
50:01division of roles. Yes, because I think
50:03it’s basically just good to have a
50:04clear division of roles in a household,
50:06in a relationship—who does what, who
50:08is responsible for what. Just like in a
50:10company, it makes sense for it to be
50:11clear who is responsible for what. I
50:13think it’s the same in a relationship
50:14. And then, of course, the classic
50:16things like communication, appreciation
50:18, and so on and so forth. I know, for
50:19example, clients who feel like they are
50:21always arguing with each other. I mean,
50:22there are couples who, when they are on
50:23a call with us, they feel like they are
50:24always arguing with each other. Yes,
50:26and I can understand that; it just
50:27doesn't make sense in my opinion if
50:29you’re always bickering and feuding.
50:31Sure, you can have a misunderstanding
50:33somewhere, you might not be perfect in
50:35your communication from time to time,
50:37but I think, generally speaking, it's
50:39just good if you communicate with
50:41appreciation and don't argue
50:42unnecessarily. At the same time, I
50:44would also say one thing: separate
50:46areas of responsibility in the company
50:48are ultra important. Yes, the more
50:49mixed up it all is and the less clear
50:51it all is, the more difficult it is.
50:53Yes, we used to have that be super
50:55unclear and blurred as well. It's just
50:57super, it's just super hindering. Yes,
50:59and that’s why keeping it clearly
51:00separated is, I think, very good. Just
51:02run the business in a business-focused
51:04way, and then you build your life
51:06together anyway, because, for example,
51:07we just had a daughter, and Sabrina is
51:09logically the main one responsible for
51:11her, so she's not as active in the
51:13company right now. Yes. Um, that's just
51:15how it is for the time being. Yes. and
51:17later she’ll come back in, or not, or
51:20maybe. However we want that and however
51:22she wants it. But um, at the end of the
51:24day, I think it’s just important to
51:26have clear rules and responsibilities
51:28and to pull in the same direction,
51:30combining family, life, and work,
51:32because at the end of the day, it's a
51:34joint endeavor. Yes, it's a shared
51:36thing. We all only have 24 hours, and
51:38those who want to work a lot, well,
51:40there’s a lot of work involved, so
51:41life has to fit together well, and that
51:43way it's quite pleasant. For example,
51:45what Sabrina used to criticize is, I
51:47think, very pleasant now. Every trip we
51:49take, unless it's just a genuine three
51:51days off, every trip we take is somehow
51:53for a workshop, a seminar, or something
51:54else. Uh, we’ve been to various
51:56places, whether it’s Cape Town, Miami
51:58, or wherever, a great many places, and
51:59there were always some work things
52:01involved. Yeah, because that’s
52:03somehow the drive that pushes the whole
52:04thing forward.
52:05Now we’re at a point where you can
52:07say, okay, for Sabrina, it’s now
52:09possible for her to focus on the child.
52:12It came out, and there were certain
52:14steps, I would say, back then to that
52:17100k cap—yeah, I’d say it wasn’t
52:19possible. Yes, now it is possible. What
52:24would you say, did you know back then
52:26what the levers were to reach the level
52:28the company is at now? Yeah, did you
52:32have a plan for yourself, or did you
52:35rather say, okay, I’ll focus on 200
52:37now and I know roughly how to get there
52:39; how did you make your plans?
52:41When we hit 100 k—and that’s a
52:43level, so 100, 130, 150—we were at
52:46that level for a very, very long time
52:48because I knew that I had to get out of
52:50sales, more or less. Because it doesn't
52:52work if I'm the main closer forever,
52:54that just doesn't work. Then Sabrina
52:56was the main closer. That all worked
52:57because the plan wasn't for her to stay
52:59in sales forever. The plan back then
53:01was to have kids at some point anyway,
53:02and we knew we just needed closers too.
53:04Yes. And to build that up and, more or
53:06less, to replace me as the main closer
53:08back then. That was a hassle over the
53:10years where I simply—where we simply
53:12made mistakes, where we brought people
53:13in who thought they were the ultimate
53:15closers. Other people, then we had one
53:16closer—I remember this—we made the
53:18stupidest deal of all time with him
53:20back then, where we set completely
53:22wrong incentives. He was a closer at
53:23Max Tornhof back then, and we thought
53:25he was this super hardcore machine of a
53:27closer, and then we just set completely
53:29wrong incentives. He was a bit too—
53:31how do I say this best? In terms of
53:33culture fit, he was a bit too, almost
53:35arrogant, in how he dealt with the
53:37other team members. That was not
53:39perfect leadership on my part. I didn't
53:41handle that well, and at the end of the
53:43day, I made so many mistakes hiring a
53:45closer from one of those closer
53:47training programs, someone who sold
53:49that training because I thought he was
53:51a top salesperson, but that didn't work
53:53out either. Long, long, long, long
53:55mistakes, until eventually someone who
53:57had been with us in setting for a year,
53:59dear Marco, finally—I told him, "Hey
54:01Marco, why don't you try doing some
54:04closing." And that worked right from
54:05the start because he had grown out of
54:07the company, and it worked very, very
54:09well. And that’s why stepping out of
54:11closing was clearly something I knew we
54:13had to do. The way we did it, we took
54:15many wrong turns and made many, many
54:17mistakes. I see so many clients making
54:19those same mistakes, and so many
54:21prospects who come to us as well. We
54:23could record a separate video on how to
54:25build a sales team of closers and so on
54:27and so forth. But that was, so to speak
54:29, the phase where I realized, okay,
54:31this is clear, this has to happen and
54:33with really high quality for it to work
54:35. In my view, it took too long back
54:38then, but we spent about a year
54:39tinkering with it. Tried people,
54:41thought we found the quick fix: "He's
54:43the shortcut, I'll bring him in," and
54:45then he wasn't the shortcut, and you've
54:47lost another three months and so on and
54:49so forth. And that was exactly what the
54:51closer hiring was like, I would say.
54:53That was a very, very long process
54:55because, as anyone can do the math: if
54:57you have 15, 10, 15 sales calls a week,
54:59that takes up a lot of time, including
55:01follow-ups, no-shows, and so on and so
55:03forth. As an entrepreneur, you no
55:05longer have many other resources and
55:07time to invest if you are primarily the
55:09coach yourself, and then at some point,
55:11calendar availability becomes the
55:13bottleneck, I understand. Meaning the
55:16bottleneck was yourself, as it often is
55:18in a company; you are the bottleneck
55:20yourself, you try to solve it, and as
55:22you knew, it took a whole year to do it
55:25.
55:26It was known, it was actually after we
55:27hired the outbound people, I knew the
55:29next step was I had to get out of
55:31closing. Mhm. Um.
55:32And from then on, it was basically the
55:35next 10 months, or however long it took
55:37, from that point on, I knew: We need
55:39someone. It works, the KPI proved that
55:41if the person is closing, it’s still
55:43highly profitable, even if they’re a
55:45little worse than me, that it still
55:47works very well. Dependable, reliable,
55:49and that’s exactly what took so long.
55:52That was then, after that, a bit of the
55:54point, I would say, where we also
55:56started working in that sense. Closer
55:58was there. Yes, now it’s like, okay,
56:00you’re always in sales yourself. Yes,
56:02you do think that a little bit, too.
56:05What would you say, okay, what was the
56:07challenge then? Yes, so you have a
56:10closer. In the end, you can step on the
56:12gas now. Yes.
56:13Yeah, totally. So looking back, I would
56:15say, first of all, we built up good
56:17skills over various things, where
56:19things just got better with ads, in
56:21recruiting, and so on and so forth. But
56:23I think the main thing back then, why
56:25we didn’t grow even faster, was
56:27simply the lack of clarity. Yes, so if
56:30we know today what our company
56:32blueprint looks like, if we know what
56:34our compensation structure looks like,
56:36if we know where we have to do what
56:37next–this clarity, so the clarity we
56:40have now, you’ll see it in the next
56:41few months anyway, but I would say we
56:43are facing very good growth. And um,
56:45this clarity we have now, we didn’t
56:47have it back then, I would simply say.
56:50Yes, we believed certain things were
56:51the lever, certain things weren’t. We
56:53learned a lot and gained a lot of
56:55experience, but if we had had what we
56:57achieved in the last two years, or I
56:58don't know, two, I think about two
57:00years or one and a half years, if we
57:02had had the right understanding, we
57:03probably could have achieved it in
57:05three quarters of a year. Most likely,
57:07yes, most likely we could have achieved
57:09it. Um, so I think the lack of clarity
57:11was the main thing back then, but the
57:13things are just how we work, what we do
57:14, that doesn't really exist like that
57:16in the German-speaking area in this
57:18structure with this individuality, with
57:20these done-for-you components and so on
57:21and so forth. There are others who
57:23focus purely on group coaching or
57:25whatever else. There are others who
57:27charge absurdly high prices for some
57:29hard-sell tactics, but the way we do
57:31things doesn't really exist elsewhere.
57:34And that’s why you don’t really
57:36have a good model. Now we have our
57:38financial model, we know how things
57:40work and how to push for scale, where
57:41everything is, and sometimes that just
57:43requires fine-tuning or tweaking; if
57:45you work with someone who has a lot of
57:47experience, that is probably helpful.
57:49We didn't always end up with the right
57:51people, I would say. And because of
57:53that, we had a somewhat longer journey.
57:55But I think knowing where the next step
57:57is, just knowing the bottleneck, okay,
58:00what is the thing I need to work on and
58:02what needs to happen, is incredibly
58:04valuable. So, the last company that
58:06helped us with that, I think we paid
58:08them € 20,000 or something like that.
58:10I would have even said it was actually
58:12worth € 200,000 to € 400,000. Yes,
58:14because just having that clarity to
58:15know: "Okay, where is it actually?"
58:17That bottleneck, that knowledge...
58:19because the fact is one thing: if
58:20you've done a lot over the last three
58:22or four months but haven't generated
58:23growth, meaning you haven't radically
58:25taken the company to a new level, then
58:27you most likely did the wrong things or
58:28you are doing the right things but need
58:30to level up your skills, right? That
58:32means maybe you are bad at sales, or
58:33maybe you are bad at leadership, or
58:35maybe you are bad at marketing,
58:36whatever it may be. It could be that
58:37you just need to level up your skills
58:39and do more of those things to catch up
58:41, or in fact, you are doing the wrong
58:43things. For us back then, I would say
58:45it was partly a leadership deficit, but
58:47otherwise, I'd say it just wasn't the
58:48right things, not having the
58:50understanding of what is correct and
58:52what isn't, and having something clear
58:54like that is incredibly valuable. That
58:55is also the reason why certain clients
58:57we have just come in at 20k per month
58:59and then 9 months later close 133,000
59:01euros in revenue in a single month,
59:03while other people have somehow been
59:04making 20,000 or 40,000 euros in
59:06monthly revenue for 6 years and just
59:08can't break out of it, and can't break
59:09out of it, and can't break out of it,
59:11because they don't know: what do they
59:13need to work on? What are the right
59:15things? And what really moves the
59:17needle? Which things do I need to
59:20delegate and which things do I really
59:21need to do well so that good growth
59:23happens. I see that with very, very
59:26many who are starting out or who
59:28perhaps are not currently in our
59:29consulting. I also know a lot from the
59:32agency bubble in that sense, this
59:33clarity just isn't there. And you also
59:37said, in the end, if you don't know
59:39where things are heading, then you end
59:41up working on the wrong things. I think
59:46what people don't realize is that every
59:48day they don't know what they should be
59:50doing correctly costs them money. Yes,
59:53because they would naturally be making
59:55that revenue already. But what would
59:58you say to people now who are
1:00:00considering, okay, they are potentially
1:00:03at 20,000 or 50,000, and just say, okay
1:00:05, they don't have the clarity. They
1:00:08maybe see problems. I believe people
1:00:11see problems. Yes, but that is perhaps
1:00:13not the clarity to get there. What
1:00:15would you say to those people now, or
1:00:16even to yourself back then, in the end,
1:00:18when you say you also had situations
1:00:20where it wasn't clear to you. Yes, what
1:00:22would you tell them they should do? How
1:00:24should they solve it?
1:00:26Well, I think the best thing, and how
1:00:28we did it—our company development is,
1:00:31I would say, above industry average.
1:00:34And I believe that can be attributed to
1:00:36one thing, and that is—this sounds
1:00:38like a pitch for ourselves, of course
1:00:40—but at the end of the day, we
1:00:41acquire knowledge with all our might
1:00:43and resources. Yes, for example, I
1:00:46believe about a year ago, we bought
1:00:48consulting from a company, an American
1:00:50consulting firm. We paid over 180,000
1:00:53euros for a service, and I had never
1:00:56been—if you ever buy consulting
1:00:57services—we ended up in a legal
1:00:59dispute with them. They are also active
1:01:02in the German-speaking market, but back
1:01:03then we were very dissatisfied, but
1:01:05they were absurd. That was a new level;
1:01:07we burned 180,000 €, we invested
1:01:09about 40,000 € in that, which means
1:01:10it’s truly burned money, a really bad
1:01:12experience, and now I also know, I mean
1:01:14I know from back then too, very
1:01:15strongly, but also newly burned. Hey,
1:01:17now comes the new skepticism. Like, hey
1:01:19, they really, I honestly feel scammed
1:01:21there. What we bought there is really
1:01:23just junk. It’s really trash for a
1:01:24lot of money. Yes. And um, but what it
1:01:26doesn't stop us from doing is making
1:01:28the next investments, and the next, and
1:01:30the next, and the next. And um, what
1:01:32many think: "Yeah, hey, maybe that's
1:01:34somehow, we spent a lot of money or
1:01:36whatever," I always see it like this:
1:01:38every month that gets us faster to a
1:01:41million a month, yes, every month that
1:01:43moves us forward faster, is massively
1:01:45saved money and saves us time. And
1:01:47that’s why I believe many people
1:01:49simply lack this urgency for progress,
1:01:51for growth, for further development.
1:01:53And for anyone who doesn't have it, I
1:01:55would simply recommend developing it,
1:01:57because you have 24 hours a day and
1:01:59from the book Think and Grow Rich
1:02:01there's one thing, namely, will moves
1:02:03things, will creates things. If you
1:02:05have the will to achieve something and
1:02:07stick with it, a strong enough will
1:02:09will create things. Yes, and it’s
1:02:11exactly like that there too. If you
1:02:12want to grow, if you want the company
1:02:14to get bigger, yes, it is inevitable
1:02:16that it will happen. Whether it happens
1:02:18right away or in a year, maybe. Yes,
1:02:20maybe. But if you want it badly enough,
1:02:22then it will happen 100%, and you just
1:02:24have to do the right things, but with a
1:02:25strong will, you will also arrive at
1:02:27the right things and you won't let
1:02:28yourself be held back by trifles. Yes,
1:02:29and that's why we have clients, we have
1:02:31invested, I don't know, 400,000 € in
1:02:33consulting ourselves. Of that, the 180
1:02:35is probably gone now, but of that,
1:02:37probably 30%was nicely well-invested,
1:02:3970%phenomenal, but even from the 30%I
1:02:41learned what I don't want, I learned
1:02:43what isn't good, I learned what we
1:02:45definitely do not want under any
1:02:47circumstances. And that's why, you know
1:02:49, you always learn, and that's why I
1:02:51would simply say, um, in such a company
1:02:53structure, simply acquiring skills
1:02:55aggressively makes super, super sense.
1:02:57Fast growth, fast development, because
1:02:59you're working anyway. Yes, the things
1:03:01you do, you're going to do anyway. I
1:03:03know so few entrepreneurs who somehow
1:03:05work 4-hour days. Yes, I know almost no
1:03:07entrepreneur who works a four-hour day.
1:03:09Most who come to us work really hard,
1:03:10but they have no progress, no
1:03:12development, and many of them have
1:03:13hardly any profit. Yes, and then I
1:03:15think to myself, what for? Man, just
1:03:17change something for once. Yes, and you
1:03:19have to come down from your high horse,
1:03:22be ready to look at things, have the
1:03:23will to change things, and then really
1:03:25implement them, push, implement, push,
1:03:27implement, get feedback, and don't stop
1:03:30until it works. And when it works, make
1:03:32it better, even better, even better,
1:03:33even better. Yes, and just stick with
1:03:35it, I believe. There are probably many
1:03:39people out there watching this now who
1:03:40are considering getting someone to
1:03:42support them to get ahead, and there
1:03:44are many options in that sense, yes,
1:03:46that you can take. And you have now had
1:03:52the experience yourself that you didn't
1:03:54invest money well, and I believe that
1:03:56is the fear of very, very many out
1:03:59there too, because of course you get
1:04:01daily calls from random people, you see
1:04:03aggressive advertising, you get
1:04:05triggered by certain Instagram elements
1:04:08, etc. Yes, and now you said yourself,
1:04:10okay, 180,000, not satisfied once. Yes,
1:04:15right at the beginning the first
1:04:17consultation didn't end well in the end
1:04:19. Yes, that's what people want to avoid
1:04:21. Yes, what would you tell people? What
1:04:24should they look out for so they don't
1:04:26do that? Yes,
1:04:27well, I think, to be honest, it is
1:04:29ultra difficult to really see from the
1:04:31outside what a company is like. It is
1:04:34just ultra difficult because, um,
1:04:35because you only see their marketing
1:04:37from the outside. There are market
1:04:39participants who look really nice from
1:04:41the outside, who look really good. Then
1:04:43you're on a sales call and you only see
1:04:44how well they sell, you think that's a
1:04:46lot, but when you see the service
1:04:47delivery, that's something you only see
1:04:49once you've experienced it. Yes, and
1:04:51therefore, I think one thing is really,
1:04:53really good. There is, for example—we
1:04:55do it that way too. We have offers
1:04:56where customers can more or less try us
1:04:58out. Relatively risk-free. Yes, they
1:05:00can start in, and we have a mutual
1:05:02incentive. Our incentive is to keep you
1:05:04as a long-term customer and to keep you
1:05:05happy. Your incentive is to earn and
1:05:07make the money for yourself as quickly
1:05:08as possible. And we offer ways there
1:05:10where you can start risk-free. Yeah, if
1:05:12people just want to club you into
1:05:14annual contracts where you land right
1:05:16in them and are stuck in a pure annual
1:05:18contract from the start, well, you can
1:05:20do that. I can tell you, with us for
1:05:22example, we have those exit options and
1:05:24so on and so forth. Virtually no
1:05:25customer uses that. No customer uses it
1:05:28. Yes, why? Because we have a really
1:05:30good fulfillment process where, when we
1:05:32run ads with people, we have a
1:05:33structured process for how we write the
1:05:34copy, how we launch it, how the whole
1:05:36thing works. We build CRMs for the
1:05:38clients, we create offers, we build
1:05:40them with them, we are so hands-on with
1:05:42the clients with such intensity, yes,
1:05:44that I believe it makes a big, big
1:05:46difference. Yes, I could of course also
1:05:48talk about the fact that we probably
1:05:49have the best satisfaction score in the
1:05:51entire market, because we are also
1:05:53likely the only ones measuring it and
1:05:54have the best score by far. But I
1:05:56believe at the end of the day, it just
1:05:58comes down to looking at the people,
1:05:59seeing if you resonate with them, and I
1:06:01can tell you one thing: when some
1:06:03people present case studies, you always
1:06:05have to be careful. Yes, because case
1:06:07studies are of course important and we
1:06:09have many case studies too, yes, but
1:06:10there are market participants who win
1:06:12100 clients a month and only produce
1:06:14one case study. You have to ask
1:06:15yourself if that's the way it should be
1:06:17or how it shouldn't be. Uh, and at the
1:06:19end of the day, I believe talking to
1:06:21the people, speaking with them, seeing
1:06:22what the offers are like—are they
1:06:24restrictive contracts, are they pretty
1:06:26cool, open arrangements—and then just
1:06:28talk to the company, see if the vibe
1:06:29fits, look at the content, and just see
1:06:31if there is a values fit.
1:06:33I mean, some companies have been on the
1:06:35market for several years, for 6-plus
1:06:37years, and with the testimonials, you
1:06:39can effectively look at when they are
1:06:41from and evaluate them accordingly. Yes
1:06:44. Now you mentioned satisfaction. Yes,
1:06:47and you are also from fulfillment of
1:06:49course, you are still in fulfillment,
1:06:51so you have the clients and the
1:06:53opportunities to advise them, while on
1:06:55the other hand, there is naturally a
1:06:57team that is massive, which produces
1:06:59such results. Yes. Yes.
1:07:01How would you say that
1:07:04ultimately, how this team was built?
1:07:08Yes, with these values, because
1:07:10regardless, if prospects or people out
1:07:12there had the chance to join one of our
1:07:14daily meetings, I think they would be
1:07:16convinced immediately. And every
1:07:19applicant who has been here so far,
1:07:21whether we hired them or not, was
1:07:23ultimately just hyped and speaks very
1:07:25highly of it. Yeah, what would you say
1:07:30were the key elements in building such
1:07:32a values-based team, because that is
1:07:34exactly what leads to this customer
1:07:36satisfaction? Yes,
1:07:40Well, I think the first thing is how
1:07:42you focus and distribute your resources
1:07:44. Because. For example, while other
1:07:47market participants keep their best
1:07:48people in their own sales and marketing
1:07:50, we have always done it this way from
1:07:52the beginning: we brought people in.
1:07:53And. For example, um, we brought in a
1:07:55senior online marketing manager, and he
1:07:57started with us in our own marketing.
1:07:58He did the marketing, yes, and
1:07:59meanwhile, he doesn't touch anything in
1:08:01our marketing anymore, nothing at all.
1:08:03He's a really great guy and is focused
1:08:05exclusively on the customers. Similarly
1:08:07, we have phenomenally taken our best
1:08:08salespeople, and when they were really
1:08:10great, we put them into customer
1:08:12support to make the sales staff and the
1:08:14customers better in sales. Yes, and
1:08:16that is why the first thing, I think,
1:08:18is the prioritization of internal
1:08:19resources within the company. Yes, I
1:08:21believe good fulfillment only comes
1:08:23from good people. Period. Yes, you just
1:08:25have to have really, really good people
1:08:27and set priorities internally within
1:08:29the company. Yes, if you always keep
1:08:30your best salespeople in sales
1:08:32themselves, instead of in sales
1:08:33training, for example—where we
1:08:34conduct sales training—then that is
1:08:36probably not quite the right order of
1:08:37priority. Yes, and I know from other
1:08:39sales companies that there isn't a
1:08:41single top salesperson in their sales
1:08:42training; instead, it's done by some
1:08:44who aren't quite as good. Yes. And it's
1:08:46exactly the same in marketing. Yes. Um,
1:08:48that means the prioritization within
1:08:50the company itself is, I think,
1:08:51something important. The second thing
1:08:53is, of course, the budgeting. Yes, I
1:08:55would say, regarding our personnel
1:08:57costs, our costs within the company—I
1:08:59don't know exactly, but I think of the
1:09:02total personnel costs in the team, I
1:09:04believe 30, 40%of our costs, or even
1:09:06more, it must actually be more, 50%I
1:09:08believe, are in fulfillment, yes, are
1:09:10people doing fulfillment. Our costs,
1:09:13meaning 50%of our revenue must be,
1:09:16because 20%of our revenue is for
1:09:18fulfillment. Yes, that means, um,
1:09:20others wouldn't have that in a million
1:09:22years. That means 50%of our internal
1:09:24costs for team members go toward
1:09:26fulfillment. Yes. And that also means,
1:09:28how many resources do you have to pour
1:09:30into it? Because if the only way you
1:09:32fulfill is some live call with a video
1:09:33course, then that's boring. Then
1:09:35there's nothing, no results are
1:09:36produced, except for people who would
1:09:38have won anyway, because winners win,
1:09:39yes, period. Period. Winners win and
1:09:41some people just don't. And that's why,
1:09:44um, I believe how much budget you
1:09:45invest, you have to manage that
1:09:47sensibly, and, um, this budget you
1:09:49invest in team members, you have to
1:09:51steer it sensibly too. Yes, because
1:09:53just throwing money at it doesn't work.
1:09:55Many agencies do that; they just throw
1:09:56money at it and then it doesn't work
1:09:58either. That doesn't create phenomenal
1:10:00results; you have to manage it really
1:10:02well, and do, and act, and lead. Yes,
1:10:03that was also the reason why you, for
1:10:05example, took on the responsibility for
1:10:07the fulfillment team, yes, so that you
1:10:09basically do the account management and
1:10:11the product development, yes, because
1:10:13we just needed more resources, more
1:10:15brainpower, and more quality, and thus
1:10:17the decision. Therefore, I think when
1:10:18you are entrepreneurial, and it's
1:10:20always a flywheel, you notice that, I
1:10:22tell you, in a year you will notice it
1:10:24very strongly. In a year, people in the
1:10:26market will very strongly notice that
1:10:27our product quality is just absurdly
1:10:29different from others. Today our
1:10:31customers see it, yes, but in the
1:10:32market you don't see it as clearly yet,
1:10:34and that's why these things always take
1:10:35time, yes, and that's why you just have
1:10:37to make the investment in your own
1:10:38product development sensibly, stay
1:10:39concentrated and focused on it, and
1:10:41then develop, and that's how I think
1:10:42something phenomenal emerges. That
1:10:44means the mindset that you want to move
1:10:45the customers forward and really want
1:10:47to help. I believe that is always the
1:10:48foundation, yes. Not just stroking your
1:10:51own ego, as many do, but really moving
1:10:53customers forward, then which internal
1:10:55resources you put into which thing, and
1:10:57also the budget you are really prepared
1:10:59to invest to create a phenomenally,
1:11:01insanely good quality.
1:11:03I mean, exactly that switch happened
1:11:05with budgeting and focus. Of course, we
1:11:11could have pushed even more into
1:11:13marketing to look even cooler and have
1:11:15the Instagram account of the century,
1:11:18etc., but we consciously took resources
1:11:20out and put them into the product, and
1:11:22as a result, we now have phenomenal
1:11:24customer satisfaction results. Yes, and
1:11:30and our account managers are the
1:11:32highest-paid people in the company. So,
1:11:33with our compensation structure, our
1:11:36customer support staff are by far the
1:11:38highest earners, or by far the
1:11:39best-paid people in the firm. Yes, and
1:11:41it’s always a question of how you
1:11:43prioritize and how you do it, because I
1:11:45know from so many other companies that
1:11:47it’s just the sales reps who make
1:11:48really great money, and the others are
1:11:50all just some random nobodies doing
1:11:52whatever. Yes, and there are some, yeah
1:11:54, exactly.
1:11:55Yes, and that’s often used in
1:11:57advertising. Yeah, my sales rep earns
1:12:00this much per month. Yeah, and they
1:12:04might do that with people, but
1:12:08ultimately, otherwise they wouldn't be
1:12:10a top sales rep, they continue doing
1:12:12sales, of course. They don't have the
1:12:14time to get into that, but that’s
1:12:16also the type of marketing. I think
1:12:18that’s also exciting for people out
1:12:20there, the type of marketing or how you
1:12:22go out and communicate says a lot, of
1:12:24course, about the fulfillment in the
1:12:26end. Yes,
1:12:28100%, 100%. I think it just makes a lot
1:12:31of things visible.
1:12:33Yes, I mean, now we are at the point
1:12:36where we are; yes, the fulfillment has
1:12:38been expanded, the sales team has been
1:12:40expanded. Of course, there are certain
1:12:43challenges. Yes, where do you see the
1:12:45company in its vision now? We talked
1:12:48about the past, now we are in the
1:12:50present. Yes, how do you have clarity
1:12:53for the coming years in that sense? Yes
1:12:55, it’s about clarity and what is the
1:12:57vision behind it? Yes,
1:12:59so what we actually wanted to do from
1:13:01the start with Hardbeat is to create a
1:13:02kind of business incubator. Yes, an
1:13:04incubator where, when a client comes in
1:13:06, they get phenomenally good service
1:13:08and really get sustainable, positive
1:13:10development. And this service should
1:13:12not come from some single guru who
1:13:14thinks they are the most beautiful,
1:13:16best, and greatest, but from a system
1:13:18of different people and experts who, so
1:13:20to speak, create this development. And
1:13:22I think we are on a really good path
1:13:24with that. So, we have ultra-good
1:13:26people on the team, where clients
1:13:28regularly just send messages about how
1:13:30awesome individual people are and all
1:13:32that. And that’s not just one person;
1:13:34it’s many, many, many people who
1:13:36simply contribute phenomenally to
1:13:37client results, because, for example,
1:13:39in cold calling itself, yes, phone cold
1:13:41calling, there are people 10,000 times
1:13:43better than me in our sales team. In
1:13:45every role, there are simply better
1:13:46people, and if you think you’re the
1:13:48ultimate guru yourself, then I think at
1:13:50the end of the day it’s difficult to
1:13:51continue developing and building our
1:13:53consulting business, our consulting
1:13:55services business actually, and then
1:13:56the plan is, so to speak, to move more
1:13:58in the direction of private equity with
1:14:00what we do. Yes, that means that for
1:14:01the companies that come in as our
1:14:03clients, we might pick out the coolest,
1:14:04nicest, greatest ones, whatever it may
1:14:06be, and take a stake in the companies.
1:14:08And the second thing, in principle,
1:14:09that we want to do is pursue a roll-up
1:14:11strategy. That means we go into a
1:14:13vertical, which means into a specific
1:14:14industry, for example, insurance
1:14:16brokers, taking it and saying, let's
1:14:18just buy 20 million in insurance broker
1:14:20revenue, so to speak, from various
1:14:22companies, build them up, develop them,
1:14:24and execute a roll-up strategy, so to
1:14:26speak. So the long-term plan is to
1:14:28build up a private equity structure,
1:14:30where you have several ways to expand
1:14:32the company, develop it, make it grow,
1:14:34and generate nice multiple effects
1:14:36behind it.
1:14:37Mhm. How important do you see it right
1:14:41now to bring in even more A-players or
1:14:43additional team members? We’ve also
1:14:47conducted many job interviews just this
1:14:49week and are constantly growing
1:14:51accordingly. How would you say—how
1:14:54important is the role first of all? Yes
1:14:58, and also in retrospect, how much
1:15:00easier is it to get these people now
1:15:03compared to before? Yes. Yes, well, in
1:15:07recruiting, I have to say, it has
1:15:09actually become significantly easier
1:15:11for us now because really good people
1:15:13are simply applying from everywhere. I
1:15:15mean, we really have top-notch people
1:15:18from major market players applying to
1:15:20us. I think it’s a bit about how we
1:15:21present ourselves and who we are.
1:15:23It’s obviously our marketing. It’s
1:15:25also that we are constantly in the
1:15:26market and that we have very, very good
1:15:27recruiting processes. Yes, I think
1:15:29that’s the thing. The second thing is
1:15:31what we’ve seen regarding our
1:15:32fulfillment, if perhaps someone was a
1:15:34client of ours a year or a year and a
1:15:35half ago. Compared to now, there are
1:15:37truly worlds between them—and not
1:15:38because we were bad back then, but
1:15:40because we are simply miles ahead now.
1:15:42Because when you have a person who
1:15:44simply has an insanely impressive track
1:15:46record, yes, who is a machine, let's
1:15:48say, a salesperson, yes, who was in the
1:15:51coaching space for 3 years themselves,
1:15:53built up sales teams, closed several
1:15:55100,000 € monthly, who earned 15, 20
1:15:58K monthly as a salesperson themselves.
1:16:00Yes, if you are advised by someone like
1:16:02that in the area of sales, for example,
1:16:05versus by just anyone–we have. e.g.
1:16:07someone, we got a sales trainer in, as
1:16:09um as a salesperson, and he did sales
1:16:11coaching there, and he himself, he was
1:16:14a cold calling coach there, he had
1:16:16never made a cold call there himself,
1:16:18never ever, and he was at one of the
1:16:20biggest sales trainers, was the cold
1:16:22calling coach. Many people just bring
1:16:24in people without experience, let them
1:16:26advise and coach. And that's the end of
1:16:28the story. And our approach is exactly
1:16:30the opposite. We we shower them with
1:16:32money. We let them earn really good
1:16:33money. But in return, we have really
1:16:35good quality. And that's why in
1:16:37recruiting, I believe, and also in the
1:16:39company it's like this, the better
1:16:40people you bring into the company, the
1:16:42more the company can grow. And the
1:16:44biggest mistake, I think, is simply not
1:16:46investing enough effort and energy into
1:16:48recruiting and not having really
1:16:50attractive incentive structures so that
1:16:52you can pick these people up, inspire
1:16:54them and bring them into your company.
1:16:56Because the better people you have in
1:16:57the company, the better the company
1:16:59grows. Why is Tesla so impressive?
1:17:01Besides the fact that Elon Musk is an
1:17:03impressive dude, he was able to get the
1:17:05craziest people into the company,
1:17:06because he creates this pull. And that
1:17:08is, I believe, something very decisive.
1:17:10You have to bring in really good people
1:17:12and then scale the thing.
1:17:14And that's where I see the marketing
1:17:16perspective again. Just when people who
1:17:20are currently at other market players
1:17:22listen to this interview, this
1:17:23conversation, then they simply also get
1:17:25a feel for how we are in the end. And I
1:17:32think something that can also be a bit
1:17:34of negative momentum for others in the
1:17:36market is when you do marketing that is
1:17:38perhaps more short-term, very focused
1:17:40on making money hard, let's put it that
1:17:42way, or also on status symbols etc.–
1:17:44yes, then you will also attract those
1:17:46people into the company on one hand.
1:17:51Yes, and these people naturally have
1:17:54different priorities than, perhaps,
1:17:56people who apply to us now, when they
1:17:59see: Okay, I recently had an interview
1:18:01with someone in that sense, he was a
1:18:04closer in the B2C sector, you know,
1:18:06which is also closer coaching, and he
1:18:08said: Okay, he can't—he couldn't
1:18:10handle it, essentially, having people
1:18:13pay via PayPal and whatever, short-term
1:18:16money, etc. And so it’s just, okay,
1:18:18he was attracted by our marketing, how
1:18:20we present ourselves, how we are—
1:18:23simply moving from a state of pain to
1:18:25where he wants to be—and said, okay,
1:18:28that's where I want to go. And those
1:18:32are exactly the kind of people who I
1:18:33believe want to help others move
1:18:35forward from the heart. Yes. Yes, and
1:18:38those are also—well, this is what
1:18:40product quality is again, because I can
1:18:42say, so many in the market—I recently
1:18:44spoke with another one, who told me he
1:18:46earns something like 17 to 22k a month
1:18:49as a closer, and that’s not a small
1:18:51amount of money. So I don't think there
1:18:53are many closers who earn that much
1:18:54money in the German market. He earned
1:18:55really good money, but what he said is
1:18:57he still wants to switch 100%in the
1:18:59long term because he doesn't stand
1:19:00behind the company, because he doesn't
1:19:02stand behind the product. Yes, that
1:19:03pisses him off, that really pisses him
1:19:05off, and that's why it's also a pull
1:19:07mechanism when people realize that you
1:19:08care about the customers and that it's
1:19:10important—that it's very, very
1:19:12important to you. Well, that's very,
1:19:13very good for your company, for sales,
1:19:15for recruiting, for fulfillment, for
1:19:16recruiting, and for marketing of course
1:19:18, too, yes, because when you have good
1:19:19customer results, marketing is
1:19:20obviously always easier. Yes, and I
1:19:22believe that is something truly
1:19:24decisive. Looking back now on your last
1:19:26five and a half years, yes, what would
1:19:28you like to pass on to the people out
1:19:30there now? Perhaps as a conclusion in
1:19:32that sense, um, that they say, okay,
1:19:33these are perhaps the three things that
1:19:35you might have wished were different,
1:19:37that you would have liked for someone
1:19:39to have just told you back then. Yes,
1:19:41what you needed then. Yes, and perhaps
1:19:43that's what the people out there need.
1:19:45Well, I think I need the service that
1:19:46we have and are building ourselves. Yes
1:19:48, that’s always the first thing,
1:19:50because we build our company the way we
1:19:51would have liked to have had it back
1:19:52then. Yes, really a holistic partner
1:19:54who builds things for you from A to Z,
1:19:56works with you, handles the difficult
1:19:58tasks, and simply takes the simpler
1:20:00things off your plate. Yes, I believe
1:20:01that is the most important thing,
1:20:03simply to embrace this learning
1:20:04mentality, and even if you might be
1:20:06somewhere—I think the most important
1:20:07thing is simply to invest in yourself
1:20:09and in your company. Period. Period.
1:20:11The second most important thing, which
1:20:12goes hand in hand with this, is simply
1:20:14maximum will, maximum hunger, and
1:20:16maximum effort so that you can reach
1:20:18the next level, because if something
1:20:19bothers you in your life or your
1:20:21company or whatever, you’re just
1:20:23going to keep working exactly as much
1:20:24as before anyway. I very rarely see
1:20:26people achieve great changes in their
1:20:28workload unless they drastically change
1:20:30their environment. Yes, if people
1:20:31change their environment, then they
1:20:32might change, but if they don't change
1:20:33their environment—and as an
1:20:34entrepreneur you probably aren't going
1:20:36to change your environment right now—
1:20:37then you will keep working in a
1:20:38relatively similar way. But the results
1:20:40can be fundamentally different. And
1:20:41that is why I believe it is very, very
1:20:43important to simply have this will and
1:20:45this hunger for change and improvement,
1:20:46yes, to really follow through with it
1:20:48and take action, and then to have an
1:20:50awareness of where the bottleneck is,
1:20:52to have that awareness and put full
1:20:53focus on the bottleneck to solve it and
1:20:55get it done. And if you would like to
1:20:57do these three things, then you are
1:20:58more than welcome to sign up below this
1:20:59video. You can book an initial
1:21:01consultation with us. We can have a
1:21:02chat and see if there is a personal fit
1:21:04. If not, no hard feelings.

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