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Unlocking Persistent Motivation & Extreme Resilience | Ross Edgley — Transcript

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0:00So, Sisyphus was one of the uh the
0:01cleverest humans who ever existed in
0:02ancient mythology. Uh he was able to
0:04outsmart the gods, and he even chained
0:05up death at one point, which made the
0:07gods really angry because basically
0:08people were fighting wars, and there
0:10were no no one was dying. So, there was
0:12no souls going to the underworld, so
0:13Hades was really pissed off. Anyway,
0:15eventually he dies, and the gods are
0:17just livid. So, they're like, "Look,
0:18we're going to we're going to punish
0:19you. And what we're going to do is we're
0:20going to make you roll a boulder up a
0:21hill for eternity, and just as it gets
0:23to the top of the hill, it's going to
0:24roll back down, and you're just going to
0:26do that for eternity, just this like
0:28absurd like completely thankless task."
0:31But then it was Albert Camus, the
0:33philosopher, who said he was able to
0:34outsmart the gods one more time, and
0:36that's if you imagine that Sisyphus was
0:38smiling. And this is the part I love. He
0:40said, "Because the struggle alone is
0:43enough to fill a man's heart." And I
0:45think for me, they've even coined the
0:46phrase that that Sisyphus was the absurd
0:48hero. And I I I think for me, swimming
0:51sometimes, I'm like, "This is Sisyphus.
0:54This is my boulder, you know, it's not
0:55going anywhere, but the struggle alone
0:58is enough to fill a man's heart."
1:00>> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
1:02where we discuss science and
1:04science-based tools [music] for everyday
1:05life.
1:09I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
1:11of neurobiology and ophthalmology at
1:13Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
1:15today is Ross Edgley. Ross Edgley is a
1:18British ultra-endurance athlete who has
1:20accomplished such feats as swimming
1:22around Great Britain, which by the way
1:24is nearly 2,000 mi in distance, and it
1:26took him nearly 157 days. He also swam
1:29317 mi of the Yukon River continuously,
1:33meaning non-stop for 56 hours. He's run
1:36a full marathon pulling a car, a
1:38full-size car, by the way, and he's done
1:4030 marathons in 30 days, and much more.
1:43All of that is, of course, super
1:45impressive. But the reason Ross is a
1:47guest on this podcast in particular is
1:49because both he and I wanted to discuss
1:51brain circuits and the psychology that
1:53allow humans, any humans, to engage and
1:56build up their mindset for motivation.
1:58So, today we explore and develop in real
2:01time what we really can say is a new
2:03model of motivation to do hard things.
2:05One that includes all the possible
2:07sources of drive to prove others wrong,
2:09to celebrate life, out of love, out of
2:12anger, to honor those who can't, to
2:14fight mental stagnation, and on and on.
2:17What's so special about Ross, and again,
2:19another reason why he's here on this
2:20podcast in particular, is because not
2:23only has he accomplished all these
2:24incredible things, but he has the most
2:26incredible level of curiosity. He
2:28absolutely wants to understand the
2:30underlying neural machinery and
2:32psychology of motivation. What's allowed
2:34him to do hard things, what can allow
2:36you to do hard things in different
2:37contexts of life, and in doing that,
2:40Ross brings forward new ways of thinking
2:42about brain plasticity and how to
2:44reshape your brain in order to make
2:45yourself better. I should also mention
2:48that Ross has a new book out, one that I
2:49am personally excited to read and to
2:51listen to, and it's entitled How to
2:53Hero: Find Strength, Forge Resilience,
2:56and Fulfill Your Purpose. You can find a
2:58link to that in the show note caption.
3:00Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
3:01that this podcast is separate from my
3:03teaching and research roles at Stanford.
3:05It is, however, part of my desire and
3:06effort to bring zero-cost consumer
3:08information about science and
3:10science-related tools to the general
3:11public. In keeping with that theme,
3:13today's episode does include sponsors.
3:16And now for my conversation with Ross
3:18Edgley. Ross Edgley, welcome. Thank you
3:21so much. We're going to need a bigger
3:22chair.
3:23>> [laughter]
3:23>> This feels surreal. we were just talking
3:25off air, weren't we, that
3:27so much of your teachings helped me
3:28across the Arctic Circle. Just jellyfish
3:31bouncing off my face, tongue coming off.
3:33This feels very weird. I'm honored that
3:35you're here. I'm very curious about you
3:37and what you do and how we can hopefully
3:41translate some of that into actions that
3:43people can take, thoughts,
3:45thought patterns,
3:47control of their own thoughts, that
3:48people can explore and perhaps adopt to
3:51have a better, more enriched life, which
3:53is obviously the purpose of it all.
3:57Take me back because I I've read about
3:59you. I've read about your
4:00accomplishments. I have smatterings of
4:02things that you've done and why, but
4:04you're 41 years old now, right?
4:06>> I am.
4:06>> Yep.
4:06>> Let's do this in snapshot-ish
4:10fashion.
4:1310-year-old Ross,
4:15what's he doing? What's he thinking?
4:17What's his strength and where's he
4:19struggling?
4:20>> I think even as as far back as 10, I was
4:23aware that I was just wired a little bit
4:25weirdly. You know, my dopamine kind of
4:26works a bit differently. My family, we
4:28love going on hikes and I never forget
4:30at 10 years old, my dad he was taking me
4:32and my two brothers on this huge hike
4:34and it just wasn't enough for me this
4:36hike. I was just like, you know, I kind
4:38of want to make it harder. So, dad
4:39caught me putting rocks in my backpack
4:42and just putting it on my back and then
4:43walking up cuz I just I needed more of a
4:45challenge. Otherwise, it just kind of
4:46wasn't fulfilling something inside of me
4:48and I think even now, looking ahead,
4:51fast forward, you know, 30 years, and
4:54I'm still doing the same thing. When I
4:56come up with an idea for a swim, if I
4:58tell someone this idea and they go, "Oh
5:00yeah, that that sounds quite good." I
5:02go, "All right, that's terrible." You
5:03know, you're not shocked by it. But if I
5:04tell someone a swim and they go, "Well,
5:06that's impossible. That's ridiculous."
5:08Like swimming around Great Britain,
5:09swimming around Iceland, I'm like,
5:11"That's the one." But you know, if
5:13people are just like, "That's absurd."
5:14I'm like, "Then that's the idea." So, I
5:16think even as far back as 10, I was
5:19aware that my brain was wired slightly
5:22differently.
5:22>> If you don't mind me asking, was the
5:24idea of putting rocks in your backpack
5:26in part to show others that you could do
5:29more? Like and and no no
5:32shame if it was. I mean, I think we all
5:34have an ego and we all
5:36want to test ourselves, but the feedback
5:39that we get is often important, too. So,
5:41as a calibration point if nothing else.
5:44So, let's say you were hiking alone.
5:47Hopefully, you weren't hiking alone at
5:4810. But, if you could imagine you were
5:51to the best of your abilities, do you
5:53think that you
5:55would have been loading those rocks in
5:57just for you?
5:58>> Yeah, I think I would. I think for for
6:00me, again, being so self-analytical, it
6:03was always an intrinsic motivation. The
6:05process was its own reward. There wasn't
6:07really anything extrinsic. If anything,
6:08I was keeping the rocks secret. I didn't
6:10want my dad finding out. When he found
6:11them, he was just like, "All right, take
6:12them out. I'll give you some food or
6:13something that's actually functional."
6:15So, so I was actually hiding them from
6:17that. Like, it was just something that
6:19that I wanted to do. That when I got
6:20home, I'd be like, "Right, I was able to
6:22do that." And I think
6:23it's changed a lot though as well. I I I
6:25think again, sort of jumping a little
6:27bit to to swimming around Great Britain.
6:29I did that when I was 32 years old. And
6:32and I spoke about it at the time that
6:34for me, it was very much ego-driven.
6:38I I talked about Captain Webb, 1875,
6:40first guy to swim across the English
6:42Channel. Did it on beef broth and
6:43brandy, and swam breaststroke cuz front
6:46crawl was ungentlemanly, like. So, he
6:47just crushed it all the way across the
6:49English Channel. Wasn't for charity,
6:51wasn't for anything like that. He just
6:52wanted to pioneer our understanding of
6:54swimming and human endurance. And for
6:56me, swimming around Great Britain was
6:57exactly that. It was looking at Maslow's
7:00hierarchy of needs. It was feelings of
7:03accomplishment, prestige, recognition.
7:05It was all of those things, ego-driven.
7:08After that, it that that then felt a
7:10little bit shallow. I was a bit like,
7:12"Ah, you know, to just do it for
7:13records." That feels a bit fragile, a
7:16bit shallow, feels a bit strange. And
7:18then and then it was the swim around
7:19Iceland, where the University of Iceland
7:21said, "We want to do something to to
7:23raise awareness around our ocean
7:25conservation efforts, but also as well,
7:27if we could collect eDNA samples, so
7:29environmental DNA samples, that just
7:31basically pick up if there's been a
7:32whale in the water, a seal, a
7:34rough-legged, whatever it is,
7:36we could track the biodiversity in a
7:38level of detail around Iceland that we'd
7:40never seen before." Upon hearing that, I
7:42was like, "Right, that feels like a
7:44better reason. It's not just records.
7:46That feels better." And that I did when
7:47I was was 40. So, it has been
7:49interesting. I think quite often
7:51sometimes it is intrinsically motivated,
7:53but but
7:55then a little bit later it told my hands
7:57off it was ego-driven. It was extrinsic.
8:00Um I wanted to be the guy, the first
8:01person to swim around Great Britain.
8:03And then now
8:05for various things that have changed in
8:06my life, I think it's like almost moving
8:08up Maslow's hierarchy there. I'm not
8:11going to quite say self-actualization,
8:13but we're looking for something a little
8:14bit more than records, I think.
8:16>> Staying with the 10 roughly 10-year-old
8:19uh Ross actually,
8:21were you always very expressive? You had
8:23a lot of uh spontaneous energy. You like
8:26And have you always woken up uh like
8:28ready to roll? Or are you kind of like a
8:31a slow slow grind into the morning? Or
8:33is it let's go, you know? [laughter]
8:36>> just let's go. I've always just been
8:37like that. I think as well like I I kind
8:40of got a handle on it now, but like when
8:42I was younger I was so competitive and
8:45and such a bad loser. There was um
8:47>> [laughter]
8:48>> my dad, I remember, he he was one of the
8:50very few people who actually under-
8:51stood how to to manage me. And I I
8:54remember I did a a school cross country.
8:55I think I was about 13 years old. And um
8:58the guy that I came second, the guy that
9:00beat me deserved to win. He was a better
9:02athlete. He beat me fair and square.
9:04But I was livid. And afterwards, I just
9:06wouldn't speak to anyone. And I stormed
9:09off. I refused to go and pick up my
9:10medal. I said, "Second place is the
9:12first loser." And I started to run home.
9:15And my dad just slowly got in the car
9:18and just followed me all the way home
9:19just to make sure I was safe. But he was
9:20like, "I'm just going to have to let it
9:21get it out of his system." I think it
9:22was 10 miles when I got back home. This
9:24was after the cross country. I had
9:26blisters. I was tired. I was exhausted.
9:28But by the time I got home, I was like,
9:31"Maybe I'd overreacted there, Dad. I'm
9:33I'm so sorry."
9:34>> [laughter]
9:34>> And he just let me realize that on my
9:36own. Like I said, I think I've got a bit
9:38more of a handle on it, but equally, and
9:41this is something I actually wanted to
9:42to quiz you about because
9:44I love your your work that you've been
9:46talking about um you know, broadcasting
9:48the the anterior mid-cingulate cortex.
9:50For me, and this is a massive
9:52oversimplification, so I'm going to
9:53apologize on where I'm speaking to you,
9:55but
9:56as a coping mechanism upon hearing that
9:58and the the podcast that you did with
10:00David Goggins, I thought about the
10:01anterior mid-cingulate cortex almost
10:03like grit and quit, pain and purpose,
10:05like weighing scales, constantly like
10:07this. And for anyone listening, I hope
10:09it helps as well that if you've got
10:11these weighing scales, pain and purpose,
10:13if it's really painful, if your tongue
10:15is falling off from swimming across the
10:16Arctic Circle, 114 days at sea, then you
10:19need a lot of purpose to tip those
10:21scales. But equally, sometimes you can,
10:25you know, talk about ocean conservation,
10:27all the amazing things that we were
10:28doing it for.
10:29But equally, there can be um Carl Jung
10:32talked about your shadow self, you know,
10:34part of your psyche that you keep away
10:36from the public. Maybe you're
10:37aggressive, hyper-competitive, jealous,
10:40and you kind of like tuck that away.
10:42Whereas Carl Jung and Jordan Peterson
10:45talking about, you know, that is a
10:46monster, you know, it it can be useful.
10:48It's not bad having a monster inside of
10:50you. It's bad when you can't put him
10:52back in the cage. And so, when swimming
10:54around Iceland, again going back to that
10:56anterior mid-cingulate cortex, pain and
10:57purpose,
10:59there was some people online who were
11:00just like, this is stupid, he's never
11:01going to do it. I even had media
11:03partners as well just going, "Oh, Ross,
11:05this has been good, but maybe we wrap
11:06this up now. You know, I don't think
11:08this is possible." And so then, that
11:1110-year-old, that hyper-competitive like
11:14side of me, ended up coming out as like,
11:17"I'm now just going to do this because
11:18people don't think I can." So it's it's
11:20really strange that, you know, I'll use
11:23different parts of motivation. I suppose
11:26my question to you that I wanted to ask
11:28since crossing Iceland is
11:31does the anterior mid-cingulate cortex,
11:32does that
11:33respond sometimes to your shadow self?
11:36Can you have a darker form of energy? I
11:38know Goggins, for instance, will speak
11:40to himself and be like, "Man up, you
11:42know, who's going to carry the boats
11:43over there?" Whereas
11:44me, sometimes I try to do it through
11:46gratitude, but but sometimes I do find
11:48that form of fuel
11:50>> Mhm.
11:50>> useful. For those that might not have
11:53uh heard me talk about it before or the
11:55David Goggins episode, just very briefly
11:57for our listeners, the anterior
11:58mid-cingulate cortex is this brain
12:00region that my colleague at Stanford,
12:02Joe Parvizi, discovered when he was
12:03stimulating in humans. He's a
12:05neurosurgeon. When stimulated, people
12:08report verbally, cuz these experiments,
12:10they literally have a piece of the skull
12:12removed, they're stimulating with an
12:13electrode. I've seen these sorts of
12:14experiments, not those exact ones, but
12:17and they can talk, they're awake.
12:19Head is fixed in a stereotax, so they're
12:21not moving around it, but and they'll
12:22say, "It feels as if there's a storm
12:24coming, but I am going to lean into it.
12:27I feel like there's a major challenge of
12:28some sort coming, and
12:30but I'm going to fight this challenge."
12:32Okay, so it's tenacity, willpower, etc.
12:34And there's a lot more to it, but that's
12:36just in case um anyone hasn't heard us
12:38talk about it or others talk about it
12:39before. The anterior mid-cingulate
12:41cortex is a very interesting structure
12:44because it receives inputs and outputs
12:46from many, many brain areas,
12:49including the amygdala, including the
12:51memory centers, including the dopamine
12:52reward system, the nigrostriatal
12:54pathway, and on and on. And so,
12:56despite what we know about it, it
12:59enlarges when people do hard things,
13:02it shrinks when people
13:04tend to shy away from hard things. Its
13:06activity and size correlates with
13:07success in doing hard things. You can
13:09build it up by doing hard things that
13:10you don't want to do, etc., etc.
13:13We still don't really know, no, I think
13:16it's fair to say we don't know the
13:18computations, the math that it's doing.
13:21We're not yet at the place in
13:22neuroscience where we can say, "Ah, the
13:24anterior mid-cingulate the computes
13:26prior notion of self with goal, with
13:29purpose, with fear, with anger, with
13:31love, and
13:33this is the computation that leads to
13:35persistence versus quitting,
13:37deliberation versus assuredness. We
13:40don't know yet.
13:40>> Mhm.
13:41>> So, it's not a total black box, as we
13:43say, but there's still a lot that's not
13:45known.
13:46And in fact, I think we can start to
13:48understand more about tenacity and
13:51willpower, at least at this point in
13:52history, by talking to people like you.
13:56In particular to you, about the anterior
13:59mid-cingulate cortex, then the anterior
14:01mid-cingulate cortex recordings can tell
14:03us about you. Does that make sense?
14:05>> It does, yeah.
14:06>> So, in the future at some point, we will
14:08have the technologies to be able to
14:09unpack the the computations with a lot
14:11of precision.
14:13There are people developing those
14:14technologies, but they're not there yet.
14:16So, I want to be careful to not say
14:17things that we don't know, but here's
14:20what
14:21I was thinking coming into this podcast
14:23today.
14:24So,
14:25we can find posts on Instagram, full
14:27podcasts, books,
14:29and historical records, and on and on,
14:31of people that did very, very hard
14:34things
14:35for just about every different reason.
14:37And so, rather than a teeter-totter that
14:40goes from quitting versus persistence,
14:44I have this mental model that I'm
14:45wondering if you'll be willing to
14:46entertain with me today through your
14:48story, whereby, let's imagine a
14:53a beam of wood balanced in the middle,
14:55but another beam of wood that's at a
14:57right angle to that. So, it looks like a
14:59cross, also balanced in the middle. And
15:01then another beam of wood, another beam
15:02of wood. You can just imagine this is
15:03like spokes on a wheel, and it's
15:05balancing. And as long as no side
15:08touches the ground for too long,
15:10you persist.
15:12>> Mhm.
15:12>> And so, what I came up with is a name
15:14assignment for each of those spokes. And
15:16so, if you're willing, I thought it
15:18might be informative and fun for me to
15:21just call out each one of these one by
15:23one.
15:24>> This is awesome.
15:24>> Take the time you need to recall a time
15:27when
15:28if and only if you were calling on that
15:31particular emotion set, that motivation,
15:35and
15:36paint a picture for us.
15:37>> This is awesome. So, you've taken my
15:38modeling and just literally like like
15:41two-dimensional, you've made it like
15:42four-dimensional. This is I'm
15:44>> Well, three-dimensional, you're going to
15:45add the fourth dimension.
15:47>> [laughter]
15:48>> So,
15:49no pressure. No pressure. Um so, this is
15:52a little bit like a qualifying exam and
15:54and obviously No, it's not an exam. This
15:55is
15:56>> [laughter]
15:56>> This is for informative and
15:57entertainment purposes, but the cool
15:59part here is it's not a movie. It's
16:01real. It's your life and the incredible
16:03things you've done. So,
16:05let's start with
16:08doing something
16:10because you said you would. No other
16:12reason, just because you said you would,
16:14either to yourself or to the world.
16:16Forget what they're saying in response.
16:19Forget who it's for, but just Why?
16:22Because you said you would. Have there
16:24ever been times when you've done
16:26something simply because you said you
16:29would?
16:29>> 100%. That That was Iceland. Yeah, that
16:32that I was just like You said you were
16:33going to do this. You You know. Or even
16:35And And the Great British Swim, I think
16:36more so because I told sponsors and
16:40everybody I was going to do it. And it
16:41was my older brother as well. He's
16:43amazing in that he can just kind of like
16:44take a complex situation and just really
16:46simplify it. We broke the record as we
16:48went around Scotland um for the longest
16:51uh stage sea swim. And everyone
16:53celebrated. They were like, "This is
16:54amazing." And Scott was just like,
16:56"Yeah, but it's going to count for
16:57nothing unless you actually finish it."
16:58And I was like, "Do you know what?
16:59You're right." And so, I think yeah,
17:01that so often it it just came down to
17:05that. Void of records and everything,
17:07it's like, "You'll look like an idiot if
17:09you don't finish this. You said you were
17:10going to do it. It's important to
17:11yourself." And also as well, void of
17:13anything extrinsic,
17:15looking yourself in the mirror. I think
17:18um Einstein when he said adversity
17:20introduces you to you, I think you know,
17:22you realize the most honest version of
17:24yourself when you were in an absolute
17:26hole. And I think um self-respect
17:30that I would know
17:31if I had quit and I actually could have
17:34finished it. So, yeah, I yeah, I think
17:36probably all of them. I've done it
17:38because I said I would, not because of
17:41how I'd be perceived publicly, how I
17:43would think of myself when I looked in
17:44the mirror.
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20:02On that swim or other times when you
20:04were pushing forward simply because you
20:06said you would,
20:08is that looping in your head?
20:10I mean,
20:11I realize along these very long journeys
20:14and and and expeditions, whatever you
20:16want to call them, these super
20:17challenges, that your mind must go to
20:19all sorts of places, dark and light and
20:21everything in between.
20:24When you're getting into the water, is
20:26it cold? Does it feel cold, or you like,
20:28"Oh, I've been here before, this isn't
20:29cold."
20:30>> It gets easier the longer it goes on. By
20:32the end of Iceland, I think I'd just
20:34habituated that form of stress. Almost
20:36like stress inoculation training. At
20:38first, when you're trying to habituate
20:40like the the sleep deprivation, the
20:42cold, uh you wake up and if you've left
20:45your wetsuit out, you have to crack the
20:46ice off the wetsuit before you can even
20:47put it on and then get in. It it By the
20:50end, you are just numb to it, you know.
20:52And and and what whatever's happened
20:53there, that habituation of the stress,
20:56uh whether my anterior midcingulate
20:57cortex has grown, whatever it is, it it
21:00By the end, it still registers, but
21:02you're you don't have an emotional
21:04response to it anymore.
21:05>> So, let's pick a different one. Not just
21:08because you said you would but because
21:10you don't want to disappoint which is
21:14different right?
21:16You don't want to carry the shame of
21:18someone else mirroring to you
21:20that you said you would do something and
21:22you didn't. So we could call this fear
21:25fear of shame.
21:26And you know no one likes to talk about
21:28these darker energies that can drive
21:30people but
21:32we'd be lying if these weren't powerful
21:34motivators for people throughout
21:35history. So um do you recall a time um
21:39could be any time when fear of shame
21:42was a driving force?
21:43>> Absolutely. Iceland, this is the easiest
21:45one to answer. So to towards the end we
21:47had 100 miles to finish basically and I
21:51was basically
21:53the baby was due the first the birth of
21:55my first child was due in a week's time.
21:57We had 100 miles still to cover. We had
21:59Hurricane Erin coming through the
22:00Atlantic. Over in Grindavik on the west
22:03coast there was a volcano that went off
22:04that basically was spewing poisonous gas
22:06so we couldn't get close to that and
22:08over here we had one of Europe's largest
22:09glaciers that was just sending shards of
22:11ice as big as this table. And the team
22:14and everyone was just like Russ I'm I'm
22:15so sorry we're going to be here for 2
22:16weeks in the harbor and I was like no no
22:18no I'm so sorry we need to go out. I
22:21need to be back for the birth of my
22:22child. Not not only for my girlfriend
22:24she's amazing I've been with her 13
22:26years. The the look on her face the
22:28disappointment that was going through my
22:30head but then also as well just knowing
22:32that I wasn't going to be there to
22:32welcome my son into this world. So that
22:35one 100%
22:37fear of failure fear of letting people
22:39down Iceland and I gunned it and
22:41finished the final 100 miles. Purely
22:44fueled on that. The the University of
22:47Iceland everything and the that was
22:48important the EDNA samples tracking
22:50biodiversity
22:52paled in comparison to you're not going
22:54to be there to welcome your son into the
22:55world. So I just gunned it.
22:57>> I notice you say we whenever you talk
22:59about these expeditions not I. Is that
23:01just your nature or is it I realize
23:03these are probably team efforts, but
23:04that's it.
23:06I think it's an important point.
23:07>> I do you know, I'm glad you picked up on
23:09that just because I think especially
23:11with sea swims that they are such a team
23:13event and in no way am I, you know,
23:16saying that to self-deprecate. It
23:17genuinely is in that if we read the
23:20tides wrong or the weather or whatever,
23:23then then I'm going backwards. You can
23:25be the best swimmer in the world. You
23:26get the tides wrong in an ice swim
23:27you're going backwards. And it happened
23:28a few times.
23:29>> Actually backwards?
23:30>> Actually backwards. Yeah, yeah. Up up at
23:31the Pentland Firth on the on the Great
23:33British Swim for instance. That's in the
23:34top of Scotland.
23:36You can be traveling at 10 knots if you
23:39get it right. That is almost the
23:41cruising speed of a dolphin. But you get
23:43it wrong, you're going backwards at 10.
23:44You could you could be Michael Phelps
23:46>> [laughter]
23:46>> and you're still going backwards. So it
23:49genuinely is just like such a team
23:51event. Or the Yukon for instance as
23:53well.
23:54It was amazing just kind of of these
23:56counter-currents, whirlpools, logjams.
23:59There was a time when I was swimming and
24:00a log came back the other way. And the
24:03team in the Yukon were just amazing at
24:05just reading the river. So so I
24:07genuinely I say we because it's a team
24:09event. I'm just the one who has to get
24:11in the water. Genuinely.
24:13>> Yeah, cuz you can't be thinking about
24:14whether or not you're headed into
24:16certain danger beyond what you're
24:17already in. I mean you need to be able
24:19to concentrate on your stroke, your
24:21breathing, um your mental frame, like
24:25whether or not your toes are falling
24:26off. Have you been frostbitten on these?
24:29>> Yeah, yeah. I've Yeah, I've picked up
24:30loads. This is strange from, you know,
24:32hypothermia, hypothermia,
24:34rhabdomyolysis, cellulitis. You know,
24:37picked up a fair
24:38>> What's cellulitis?
24:39>> Oh, cellulitis is a
24:40>> Sounds like infection.
24:41>> Exactly that. Yeah, a skin infection.
24:43But basically I picked that up in Loch
24:44Ness cuz it was fresh water.
24:46Basically that the wetsuit was chafing.
24:48It got so deep, it turned infected. And
24:51then if that gets in your lymph nodes or
24:53bloodstream, it can be fatal.
24:55It was a really strange position to be
24:57in as well cuz it was a 56-hour nonstop
24:59swim. The water was about 4° barely
25:01above freezing.
25:02>> for sleep?
25:03>> No, no, no. So, nonstop swim, you can't
25:05touch anybody, no one can touch you, you
25:06can't touch the boat, you just you just
25:08swim 56 hours. And towards the end, it
25:11was so strange cuz I had hypothermia, so
25:13my core temperature I could feel just I
25:15was shaking from the inside. It was in
25:16my bones, but my skin was on fire from
25:20the cellulitis. So, it was this strange
25:23attack on my physiology. But yeah, to
25:25answer your question, picking up a fair
25:27few of those, it's really strange that
25:29it recalibrates
25:31your perception to pain. And swimming
25:33around Iceland, there were times when I
25:34was really cold and I was like, "It's
25:36not as bad as Loch Ness." I'm still
25:38okay. I'd look at wounds around my neck
25:40and everything and I'd go, "Oh, that's
25:42that's not too bad. It doesn't It
25:43doesn't smell infected. We're good."
25:45>> Trophies
25:46um for a sicko like you. Um,
25:49do do you believe in the Loch Ness
25:50Monster?
25:51>> Mhm, something touched my leg.
25:54>> [laughter]
25:54>> I love all of It was so interesting. I
25:56got so
25:58sort of I was I don't want Yeah,
26:00probably was. It was like a spiritual
26:01experience. And I think by, you know,
26:03that point, was it Nietzsche who said,
26:05you know, "Whoever fights monsters
26:07should see to it that he doesn't become
26:08a monster himself. For if you gaze into
26:11the abyss too long, the abyss gazes back
26:13into you." And I think for me, swimming
26:15through Loch Ness, that was going
26:17through my head. And I definitely stared
26:20into the abyss too long. Um, it was
26:22going well up until 56 hours and then I
26:25just remember I must say, it was very
26:27gradual, but you were like looking and
26:28your tunnel vision just got narrower and
26:30narrower until you were looking through
26:31the the eye of a needle. And then it
26:33just went black. And I remember waking
26:35up and my girlfriend and my mom were at
26:37the head of my hospital bed. And I just
26:39looked up and I just went, "Ah, [sighs]
26:41it's not gone well, has it?" And they
26:42were like, "No, Ross."
26:44>> [laughter]
26:44>> It's not gone well at all.
26:46So, I think uh learning from that, to go
26:49back to what you're saying about
26:50hypothermia thing, it's nice now knowing
26:53that with the Iceland swim, having
26:55graduated in Loch Ness, I was like,
26:57"Look, let's not Let's not become a
26:59monster. Let's not stare into the abyss
27:01too long."
27:02>> Did you go back and do and do that one?
27:04>> Loch Ness, I want to. I've got
27:06unfinished business there.
27:07>> I keep wondering, since I was a kid, why
27:08don't they just drain Loch Ness and
27:10solve this Loch Ness Monster thing once
27:11and for all? [laughter]
27:12>> I know.
27:13>> It's not good for the tourist trade,
27:14though, you know? I mean, I always think
27:16if it's real, how cool is that? And if
27:19it's not, um what a what a remarkable
27:22way to increase tourist traffic to a
27:24location. You create a a myth and a
27:27mystique, something that's dangerous,
27:29but not so dangerous that people are
27:30afraid to go.
27:31>> For sure.
27:32>> Uh you know, you see the world with a
27:33few photo Like that's what they clearly
27:36One or the other happened, right? Or
27:37some combination.
27:38>> Yeah. But I love that you brought that
27:40up as well, because swimming around
27:41Iceland,
27:42at the start,
27:44I you know, I heard about, you know,
27:45elves and trolls and mountains with
27:47trolls that didn't make it back before
27:49sunset and sunup.
27:50>> All of these stories.
27:51>> I was like, "Oh, that that's cool.
27:52That's a cool story."
27:54Swimming around it, there is something
27:56in the water. There were events.
27:58[clears throat] So, I I got a blood
27:59ceremony. So, basically, it's almost
28:01like a an ancient chief, um a modern-day
28:03form of of that, and he basically gave
28:05me a blood ceremony where he blessed the
28:07swim. And it was just amazing speaking
28:10to him. He said like, "Ross,
28:11you know, I I I think you'll die, you
28:14know, but um you know, it'll be a good
28:15saga." You know, the the Icelandic sense
28:17of humor.
28:18>> the send-off?
28:19>> That was the [laughter] send-off.
28:20>> Dark.
28:21>> Even at the start as well, I remember I
28:22did a swim
28:24and afterwards, I'm looking up at the
28:25northern lights, and I'm I'm sort of
28:27toweling myself down. I'm like, "This is
28:29unbelievable." And this old Icelandic
28:31fisherman just comes out of nowhere, and
28:33I just hear his voice, and the first
28:35thing he says to me is, "They're
28:37probably deciding if you're going to
28:38live or die." And I turned around, I
28:40went, "I'm I'm I'm sorry." And he goes,
28:43"The Valkyries." I said, "I'm sorry,
28:44you've lost me. Please explain." And he
28:46said, "Well, we believe that the
28:47Northern Lights are the Valkyries,
28:49Odin's warriors, female warriors, and
28:50they're riding through the sky, and the
28:52shimmering is their shields and their
28:54swords, and they're taking the fallen
28:55back to Valhalla." And I was like,
28:58"That's deep."
28:59>> [laughter]
28:59>> Okay. Then, like I said, starting the
29:02swim on the blood ceremony, they again
29:04and and sorry if you know this, but they
29:05were talking about the guardians of
29:07Iceland.
29:07>> I don't know anything about I I know
29:09very little about Iceland.
29:10>> Oh, I said, "This this story was
29:11amazing." So, they we basically started
29:12on the west coast, and they said, "Ross,
29:14you're aware that you're swimming in the
29:15kingdom of the bull." I said, "What do
29:17you mean?" And they said, "Well, the
29:18story goes that basically there was a
29:21king, a foreign king, who sent a
29:22sorcerer dressed as a whale to come and
29:25invade Iceland. Came over to the west
29:28coast, and there was this massive bull,
29:30and they said, 'Right, you can't attack
29:31there.' And that represented strength
29:33and power. Went over to the north coast,
29:35that was the kingdom of the eagle. They
29:37turned up, the eagle saw them from miles
29:39off, the sorcerer was like, 'You can't
29:40attack there.' Went over to the east
29:42coast, over the east coast, that is the
29:44realm of the dragon, mainly because
29:45there's loads of waterfalls, and dragons
29:47like fast-flowing water. And then, bang,
29:50on the south coast, the realm of the
29:51giant. The whale, the sorcerer came
29:53there and was like, 'Woah, you can't
29:55attack there either.' And then
29:56disappeared. So, when you look on the
29:57crest of Iceland, so often they have the
30:00bull, the eagle, the dragon, and the
30:02giant. And again, upon hearing that, I
30:05was like, "Well, that's that's a cool
30:06story." But it's a little bit deeper,
30:09and they're saying really it's about
30:10respecting, you know, nature and
30:12everything. And and I think
30:14going around Iceland, you know, that was
30:16just a shot of adrenaline. And and I
30:18think what was weird, and I wanted to
30:19quiz you on this, actually, because
30:21upon hearing stories of this, I don't
30:24know, and please correct me if I'm
30:25wrong, is it is it the the dorsolateral
30:27prefrontal cortex that deals with
30:28strategy? And it's almost the story that
30:30you're telling yourself. So, when I'm
30:32swimming around, I'm like, "This is the
30:34kingdom of the bull." And I almost made
30:36it poetic in my head. And that actually
30:38got me through a few swims. And then
30:40even towards the end as well, like I
30:42said about trying to make it back home,
30:44the story of Odin. So, in ancient Norse
30:47mythology, they believe in fate. They
30:49believe that, you know, you're you can't
30:51control your destiny, and the only thing
30:53you control is your attitude towards it.
30:54So, Odin, basically Ragnarok being the
30:57the Norse apocalypse, where the
31:00basically the the gods fight the giants
31:01this huge battle, and Odin basically
31:04traded his eye for wisdom. So, he knew,
31:07spoiler alert, that he was going to be
31:08eaten by a giant wolf, but he just
31:11charges into battle anyway. And I think
31:13what was really interesting upon hearing
31:15this, certainly by the time I finished
31:17the swim after 114 days, I was sat there
31:20thinking, "You need to finish. You need
31:22to get back for the birth of your son.
31:24But equally, if the ancient Nordic gods
31:26are watching,
31:27this is what they would want." Again,
31:29Nietzsche, what is it? There I know of
31:30no greater life purpose than to perish
31:33in attempting the impossible. And all of
31:35that was going through my head.
31:36>> You asked about the dorsal lateral
31:38prefrontal cortex.
31:39>> Yeah.
31:39>> So, there there is a set of studies
31:41that, since you have an interest in
31:43neuroscience and the anterior
31:44mid-cingulate cortex, that I did return
31:46to.
31:47I haven't talked about it on the on my
31:49podcast ever,
31:50but um that it's a it's a solid
31:52literature in in neuroscience, and um
31:54has to do with an experiment called the
31:56tube test. Do you know what the tube
31:58test is? You might like this. Some years
32:00ago,
32:01people were interested in what drives
32:03persistence and winning in competition.
32:05So, they developed uh
32:07something called the tube test, and it's
32:08done on mice, but then we'll talk about
32:10the human analog. And basically, you put
32:12two male mice into a tube, and they want
32:14to fight. It's just what male mice want
32:17to do. Female mice will do it, too, by
32:19the way. Uh female male pairings will do
32:21it, too, but they tend to do this with
32:23males, um male male pairings. Put them
32:25in the tube, but these fights are not
32:27such that the tube is small enough so
32:28they can't really scratch or bite at
32:29each other.
32:30>> Got it.
32:31>> And one pushes the other one out of the
32:33territory. You know, space, who gets the
32:35most space is a is a
32:37very primitive but important feature of
32:38competition among animals, dogs,
32:42etc., right? You know, who gets space.
32:44So, you put two mice in and one tends to
32:46win and one tends to lose. And there's
32:48some interesting statistics that fall
32:50out whereby prior winning leads to
32:52future winning on average, right? So,
32:54winners tend to be winners and losers
32:56tend to be losers over time in a way,
32:58and this is where it gets interesting,
32:59that's independent of testosterone
33:01levels,
33:02independent of things like nutritional
33:05status. I mean, at the extremes, these
33:07things fall away, like one is starved or
33:09one is castrated, okay, right? Um body
33:12weight, these sorts of things. So,
33:13there's something else there.
33:15So, a bunch of different laboratories
33:16have worked on this, measured brain
33:17activity in a broad-scale way, and and
33:20pinpointed this region of the the
33:21prefrontal cortex, which in mice you
33:23can't really say is like equivalent to
33:25our dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, but
33:27at least has components of it.
33:29And then they do the following
33:30experiment. You take a mouse that was
33:33consistently a winner, and you silence
33:36this particular region of the brain, or
33:38you quiet its its activity, you lessen
33:40its activity,
33:42and it becomes the loser.
33:44You take the loser and you in real time
33:46increase the amount of activity in this
33:47particular brain region, and now it wins
33:49every time.
33:51Here's what's wild. The amount of
33:53cortisol, the amount of testosterone,
33:55the amount like none of that stuff
33:56speaks to what could really be going on.
33:59It seems that this top-down circuit from
34:01the prefrontal cortex to a bunch of
34:03other stuff, these are clearly circuits,
34:05not just one location in the brain,
34:07is driving persistence to win under
34:11any
34:12realistic condition. Like, again, you
34:15can't take a fetal mouse and have it
34:16beat an adult mouse, right? But all
34:19other things being more or less equal,
34:21activity in this area drives persistence
34:24and winning.
34:25And there are equivalent experiments
34:28in humans
34:30using
34:32virtual reality and brain scanners and
34:34this kind of thing. It's hard to do the
34:36experiment. You're clearly physically
34:38stronger than I am. I'm reasonably
34:40strong. But No, you absolutely are,
34:41right? So, there's no way that you're
34:43going to stimulate my prefrontal cortex
34:45and I'm going to beat you in a in a
34:46deadlift. I just know that. So, it's
34:48okay. We don't even have to like
34:49entertain the other possibility. But but
34:51there's a world where if we are
34:54otherwise within, you know, 10 or 20% of
34:56each other's abilities in something,
34:58>> [snorts]
34:58>> that whoever has the most activity in
35:01this brain region wins over and over and
35:05over again. And the converse is true,
35:06too. So, I find this amazing because the
35:08analog in human is that this is a brain
35:10area that's involved in conscious
35:12strategy setting.
35:13>> Mhm.
35:14>> Conscious strategy setting and
35:16the particular strategy could be anger,
35:20>> Mhm.
35:20>> could be love, could be you want to get
35:22home to see your child born, could be
35:26you're hungry and you want to eat, you
35:27want others to eat so they can serve
35:29you, you know. I the beauty of the
35:31prefrontal cortex is that it can learn a
35:33lots of different strategies
35:36in lots of different contexts.
35:38It's a unique circuit in that component
35:40of circuitry in that way. So,
35:43when people tell me, "Yeah, I'm in mile
35:45200 of the of a race in the desert and I
35:48want to quit and I just have this
35:50thought and I push." Clearly that's a
35:52prefrontal cortical top-down type thing.
35:56That's a real thing. There's a physical
35:58substrate to it from mice. And it's been
36:01shown in other species, too, but it's
36:02clearly there in us.
36:04>> But what I love about what you said
36:05there and also as well, for those losing
36:07then as well, there was somebody recent
36:09was talking about Roger Federer and they
36:11said if you watched his matches and
36:14turned the sound off and couldn't see
36:15the score, you wouldn't know if you won
36:17the point or lost the point. He was so
36:19stoic about it. So, do you think it's
36:20the same as well if you're losing, that
36:23if you don't react to it, you'll maybe
36:24able to buck that trend? Does that make
36:26sense?
36:26>> Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. So, I
36:28think that there are several big macros
36:30today that are going to emerge, but one
36:32of them that clearly will emerge is this
36:34notion of energy.
36:36>> Mhm.
36:36>> Right, the reason I asked about the
36:3710-year-old Ross Edgley is I I I had a
36:40sneaking suspicion that he had a lot of
36:42energy.
36:43You know, some people just have a lot of
36:44energy, right? Having a lot of energy is
36:47great. Energy management on a backdrop
36:50of having a lot of energy, that's where
36:52things start getting impressive, right?
36:54Poor energy management on a backdrop of
36:56a lot of energy is I think what leads to
36:58the 27 club. People who do incredible
37:01things and die.
37:02>> Mhm.
37:03>> Whether by virtue of their particular
37:05activity or by virtue of I heard this in
37:07this wonderful documentary that everyone
37:10should see, which is um The Defiant
37:12Ones, which is about Dre and Jimmy
37:13Iovine and development of like Beats and
37:16the story of hip-hop. And And there was
37:18a guy in in N.W.A. who we don't hear
37:21about much anymore, who clearly was
37:23extremely talented.
37:25But he had a really bad accident. And
37:27you ask And he's talking about how it
37:28happened and it involved wildness and
37:31And you ask him uh you know, they were
37:33like, "What do you think happened?" And
37:34he just goes, "The excesses."
37:37It was the excesses of all that energy
37:39pouring in, money and drugs and
37:41>> Mhm.
37:42>> fast cars and being famous and it and
37:45and it wasn't well managed in him.
37:47And he's still alive, but
37:50the excesses. So, energy management is
37:53is clearly a piece of the ability to
37:57be the 10-year-old you and
37:59load more and more rocks, but you're not
38:02burning unnecessary energy. So, the
38:04efficiency piece is I think where these
38:06stories that we tell ourselves, like I'm
38:08doing this for so-and-so. You're able to
38:10like separate out all the other possible
38:12motivations, at least for some period of
38:14time. Like just being motivated is like
38:17a dysregulated system. So, motivated to
38:20do blank because blank,
38:22That's a well-managed energy system.
38:25So, most people would die for your
38:27levels of raw energy. But, in keeping
38:30with this theme about how you regulate,
38:32dynamically regulate your energy, have
38:34there ever been moments along any of
38:36your conquests when you thought, "That's
38:39it. I'm done." But, you had told
38:41somebody, "Don't let me quit." You
38:43outsourced the management.
38:45>> I'm really glad you asked that cuz it's
38:46almost the opposite. So, so looking at
38:49Tim Noakes central governor theory or
38:50psychobiological model of fatigue, you
38:52know, this idea how the brain and the
38:53body interact and will pull the
38:54physiological handbrake to stop you from
38:57going to complete exhaustion.
38:59Upon hearing this and studying this,
39:02this was before Loch Ness. And also, I
39:04did it at a swimming lecture seminar in
39:05Italy. We got caught in a freak
39:07heatwave. Temperatures over 40° C, water
39:10temperature up to 34°. It was bath
39:12water. It was rhabdomyolysis waiting to
39:14happen.
39:1637 hours in, approaching 100 km, exactly
39:19the same happened. My body just started
39:20to shut down.
39:22I am just swimming. I'm so stubborn. And
39:25I think what's really strange is looking
39:28at that psychobiological model of
39:29fatigue. I know that as soon as my brain
39:33that's a hypochondriac starts pulling
39:34the physiological handbrake, I just go,
39:36"Nah, nah, nah, nah." I'll just put my
39:37foot down on the gas. So, actually, with
39:40my team, we talk about outsourcing
39:43common sense. I say, "Look, you know,
39:45and I don't and I don't say this
39:46proudly. It's a personality defect. I'm
39:48well aware of that. But, I know I will
39:49swim till I put myself in hospital." And
39:52that's that's a bad thing, especially
39:53now as a dad.
39:54>> [laughter]
39:55>> So, I have I outsource that to my team
39:56and I go, "Okay, guys, if you tell me
39:59that that you need to pull me out, and
40:02you play that card, I will listen
40:04because I can't keep putting myself in
40:06hospital." And I think that that's one
40:08thing. It's almost the opposite now that
40:10I need to be saved from myself. Again, I
40:12don't say that proudly at all.
40:14But, I'm just very aware now from
40:16metrics they have with my blood work and
40:18various things. I'm like, "Look, I I
40:20can't I can't do that again, not now as
40:22a dad. I need to be more responsible."
40:24Yeah. And that that's trusting the team
40:26who are amazing as well because they are
40:28well aware that what we're trying to
40:29achieve is so ambitious, so they will
40:32allow me to sort of play with the
40:34boundaries of common sense and sports
40:36science. Um Joe Kennedy, great friend of
40:38mine, uh one of the greatest ice
40:40swimmers ever.
40:42Uh so he just understands hypothermia
40:44and cold. And there's so many times me
40:46and him have conversations and he's just
40:48like, "He's still good. He's still
40:50coherent." But there's other times
40:52where, you know, I wish I'd had Joe
40:53there just to go, "Ross, you're done."
40:56>> It's interesting the uh talk a little
40:58bit about addiction later, but you know,
41:00in um I have some friends, couple have
41:02been on this podcast, who've talked
41:04openly about the fact that they were bad
41:05addicts and they needed to literally
41:07assign somebody the job of don't let
41:11them talk their way out of a, you know,
41:13an isolation or don't let them talk
41:15their way back to their phone or don't
41:16let them talk their way back to a casino
41:18and this kind of thing and um with huge
41:21cash rewards if the person doesn't allow
41:23them to do it. That's pretty much you
41:25have to create an incentive on the other
41:26side, too, right? Cuz um some of these
41:28folks are really persuasive.
41:31And and
41:31>> That's me.
41:32>> Yeah, yeah, [laughter] exactly. So,
41:34yeah, I mean, we can be honest about who
41:35we're talking about here cuz he's talked
41:37about it openly. David Choe was on this
41:38podcast some years ago, extremely
41:39talented artist, amazing human being,
41:42blessed to call him a friend. And uh
41:43he's had a gambling addiction many times
41:45over in his
41:46in his life.
41:47Fortunately, he's
41:49he's uh
41:50not in it now and hopefully never will
41:52be again, but there were times when he
41:54had to offer his team tremendous amounts
41:57of money to not let him convince them to
42:00let him out of a like an isolation cabin
42:03for a couple months while he was, you
42:05know, sobering up or give him his phone,
42:08in which time he became viciously
42:10addicted to playing Angry Birds 23 hours
42:12a day.
42:12>> Good game.
42:13>> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] Or Pokémon or
42:15whatever, you know? So, what you
42:17describe, because it's a elected um
42:21endeavor, and because uh provided you
42:23survive and make it home to your your
42:25girlfriend and and uh child, it's all
42:28good, right? But it has a component of
42:31addiction, right? I mean, it's like if
42:33you didn't if you don't add the rocks,
42:34if you don't have the next swim, if you
42:37you know, so how do you gauge
42:40what's too much? I mean, every
42:43high achiever has to answer at some
42:46point the question how much money, how
42:49many miles,
42:51how much fame, how how many blanks
42:54before I'm satisfied? And the answer
42:58isn't clearly not concrete. It's it's
43:02like a dynamic thing.
43:03>> 100% yeah.
43:05>> how close to dying do you have to get
43:06before you're like, you know what? I'm
43:07going to chill and paint or something?
43:10>> is such a good question, cuz I'm I'm
43:11literally as of only the last year, so
43:14my son's now 1 year old, and so he's
43:16really kind of forced me to ask those
43:18questions. Now, when I'm proposed swims,
43:20the 21-year-old self, if somebody said,
43:22"Oh, you know, go do
43:24swim through a volcano down in
43:26Antarctica." I'll be like, "Yeah, hold
43:27my beard, done." Whereas now I've got
43:29I've got to ask myself, you know, is is
43:32this worth it? Is it enough? Is it worth
43:34doing? Um I don't know. The only thing I
43:36know is with um you know, Victor Frankl
43:38talking about you know, the meaning of
43:39life is to give life meaning. Uh Jordan
43:41Peterson saying
43:43the purpose of life is to pick up the
43:44heaviest load and carry it. All of those
43:45things resonated so much with me that I
43:49I do need purpose, and Victor Frankl
43:51says that over fame, money, just a human
43:54needs to wake up. What is your reason
43:56for getting up in the morning? And when
43:57I don't have a swim or something to
44:00train for, my girlfriend just says
44:02I'm just like a caged animal. She sees
44:04me at home. And so so when people I
44:06mean, she's amazing. And when I left for
44:10Iceland, she's, you know, pregnant,
44:11quite heavily pregnant, waving me off.
44:13And they said, "How are you letting him
44:14do this?" And she goes, "Ah,
44:16he would be terrible if he was still at
44:18home. So, I know he's happiest when he's
44:20out there." Even swimming around Great
44:22Britain as well.
44:23So many people back on land when Hester
44:25would come and see me. And I was 100
44:27days in, I looked like a sea yeti
44:29werewolf. You know, my tongue was
44:30falling off. I was chafing all over. And
44:32people would say, "Ah, how's he doing?
44:34I've I've I've seen the wounds. I've
44:35seen his neck." And Hester would just
44:37always reply, "I've never seen him so
44:39happy. Like, he's having the best time."
44:42And again, I don't say that necessarily
44:43in a proud way, but I just know I just
44:45need purpose. Whatever it is, give me
44:48something to train for.
44:49>> And she met you when you were already
44:51like this.
44:52>> Yeah.
44:52>> And doing this. That's important.
44:54>> It It's so important.
44:55>> you didn't like you didn't like spring
44:56this on her 3 years into a relationship.
44:59>> No, no, no. No, no. And she's
45:00incredible. Like, the Yukon swim, for
45:01instance. So, that was 510 km nonstop,
45:0456 hours. Although, the entire
45:06expedition was about 70 hours. So, the
45:08entire team, including myself, didn't
45:10sleep for 70 hours cuz we had to
45:11actually get the boat to the starting
45:13point. And I just remember like just
45:16swimming, and there's just the
45:17silhouette of my girlfriend. And every
45:1920 minutes, she throws me a banana. And
45:21I'm just like, "Thanks, babe." And she's
45:23just like, "No problem."
45:24>> [laughter]
45:25>> And I think it was that, you know, that
45:27that I feel so fortunate, you know, just
45:30swimming with gratitude, realizing that
45:32I'm just like, "Ah, thanks for accepting
45:33me. I know I'm a feral weird boyfriend."
45:36So, I really appreciate it.
45:37>> You seem, as I would describe, and
45:39sometimes describe myself, um you know,
45:41only partially domesticated. So,
45:43>> That is absolutely Yeah. [laughter]
45:45>> Yeah.
45:45>> That is so When I turned up as well, I
45:47mean, I was still I was hairy from
45:49Iceland. I had like jellyfish tentacles.
45:51I was like just literally chafing
45:52wounds. And I arrived at the hospital.
45:53So, I made it back by 3 days for the
45:55birth of my son. So, whereas I arrived
45:57into the hospital, nurses and everyone
45:58was like, "Oh my god, who is that?" And
46:00Hester was like, "Oh, no, no, no.
46:01Unfortunately, that is the father of my
46:03child.
46:04>> [laughter]
46:04>> He's feral, but he's safe."
46:07>> Is she a warrior by nature?
46:09>> Yes, but she said since, you know, we've
46:12been together 13 years, and she says now
46:14she just has to let go. And I think it's
46:17really interesting cuz she
46:19now her barometer of of worrying is
46:22completely changed because when you
46:25have, I mean, the Yukon was a great
46:26example. And I want I wanted to actually
46:28This is great cuz I wanted to chat to
46:29you about this in great but just uh your
46:31perceptions of danger. So, there was so
46:32many times on the swim where, you know,
46:34black bears were fine, you know, in the
46:36Yukon in Canada. They're a bit skittish,
46:38and they look at you, and I can almost
46:39feel my amygdala or circuitry, whatever
46:41it was, was looking going, "That's
46:43okay."
46:44When the brown bears appeared on the
46:46site, they are just look at They are not
46:48skittish. They're just like looking at
46:49you going,
46:51"You're not a salmon, but you're not a
46:52bear. I wonder what you taste like." And
46:54I
46:55I'm just swimming. I turned to the guys
46:56in the Yukon, and they were amazing, the
46:58support team. And I said, "Guys, am I Am
47:00I okay here cuz that that brown bear is
47:02is looking at me like I'm a dessert."
47:04And they pulled out, Andrew, it wasn't
47:06even a gun. It was a cannon. And they
47:08went, "Ross, if it gets too close, it'll
47:10end up in my freezer." And I was like,
47:12"Right. That's the response I wanted.
47:14Great."
47:14Carried on swimming.
47:15>> Yeah. But but you experienced that as
47:17well with shark diving.
47:19>> Yeah, I don't
47:19>> As well. That's changed. That rewired
47:22you. Is it fair to say?
47:23>> Yeah, I don't want to shift this to a
47:24story of any of my
47:26adventures and and they're in no no way,
47:29shape, or form as bold and as and as
47:31enduring as as yours. So, but yeah, a
47:33few years back for my lab, we decided to
47:36record these great white sharks in the
47:37wild, bring it to the VR lab, and
47:40a friend of mine, a very accomplished
47:42photographer, videographer, Michael
47:44Muller,
47:45convinced me
47:46to get dive certified and exit the cage
47:49and swim towards the
47:51sharks. And there There's a skill to
47:52doing this. It's not like, you know,
47:54you're not just
47:55cowboying it, but but you know, I had an
47:57air failure not out of the cage on the
48:00hookah line the day before and there's a
48:02whole story there. So, um 2017 marked
48:06the end of the deliberate end of me
48:08taking risks with my physical uh life.
48:12Um but, what I learned there and what
48:15I've learned um from people like Cam
48:16Haines and from spending time in
48:18Australia and from people who live in
48:21Montana like Andy Stumpf is that
48:25you know, our our perception of what's
48:27dangerous in the wild is often a little
48:29bit cryptic and we can easily be misled.
48:32Like, oh that little spider looks
48:33friendly and that's the deadly one. Or
48:35that bear looks very large and looming,
48:37but it turns out that's not the one that
48:39will actively hunt you. It's actually
48:40the somewhat smaller one that is uh just
48:43likes to hunt humans, you know, this
48:45kind of thing. And so, the key takeaway
48:48being whether it's jellyfish, spiders,
48:50snakes, uh
48:53birds or
48:55in some cases people for that matter,
48:57locals have the key knowledge and and
49:01our ideas about what's dangerous or not
49:03um are often wrong. So, best to err on
49:06it's all dangerous.
49:07>> It's 100% right.
49:08>> And I love what you said there as well
49:10because again, diving with great whites
49:12and I and also tiger sharks myself, they
49:14they have them the ampullae of Lorenzini
49:16where they pick up electrical impulses.
49:17And I think exactly to your point, what
49:19was so strange is the first time I dived
49:21with them, I'm always comfortable in the
49:23water, but it was so strange how like
49:25the tigers and the great whites knew
49:27that I was the weakest diver. And
49:30whether that was like I was flinching, I
49:32acted like prey, whether my heartbeat or
49:34whether I was breathing, it knew. And it
49:37was so interesting on the the audio they
49:38were like, Ross, control your breathing.
49:40Ross, slow your heart rate. And I was
49:41like, how does it know? And sure enough,
49:44they just all just came straight for me.
49:46And they were like, Ross, I'm not saying
49:47square up to it, but I'm not saying
49:50flinch and back away as well. So, as it
49:52came towards me, there was there I was
49:54like, "Well, can I help you?" You know,
49:56and it sort of was like it looked at me
49:58and there was a real
49:59form of communication that's obviously
50:01nonverbal and it sort of looked at me
50:02and was like, "All right. Okay, you know
50:03what you're doing. I'll I'll leave you
50:05alone." You know, and it was it was so
50:06strange. Exactly the same with the bears
50:10in the Yukon. That that it they were
50:12looking and if there was a weakness,
50:14that is the laws of the jungle, you
50:16know, I would have been charged.
50:17>> Yeah, I mean, all animals have their own
50:20sophisticated forms of intelligence.
50:22What you learn with the great whites
50:23before you go down there is that they're
50:25going to come looming in slowly. There
50:28are a lot of tuna out there, there are a
50:29lot of seals and and other things for
50:30them to eat, so they're not actively
50:32trying to hunt you. But, if you
50:35swim away from them, they perceive you
50:36as prey. They're making a binary
50:38decision, right? And it this is actually
50:40an important thing in terms of brain
50:41circuitry again. I had a student who
50:43then went off and did a post-doc, she
50:44now has her own laboratory in
50:45Switzerland, Lindsey Shiley, who
50:47published some papers on threat
50:49assessment and response.
50:51How fear can turn to pausing can turn to
50:55aggression. It's very very interesting
50:56work and she really deserves the credit.
50:59We can put a link to those papers, but
51:00they're these areas of the midline
51:02thalamus, like basically square in the
51:03middle of the brain,
51:05that basically make the decision
51:07among three choices. You can go forward,
51:10you can stay in the same place, or you
51:11can retreat.
51:12And predators are also assessing, are
51:15they moving forward toward me, are they
51:17staying still, or are they retreating?
51:19You know, the brain is very of all
51:20species is sophisticated in air quotes,
51:23but it has to make these decisions often
51:25with limited amounts of information. So,
51:26these are more like switches than a
51:28continuum. And Lindsey has identified a
51:31number of those switches in the brain,
51:33she and others. And so,
51:35the bears are probably paying attention
51:37to, you know, is he moving forward
51:39toward me or something else? Is he
51:41staying still or is he retreating from
51:43me? They have to know if it has
51:44something to do with them. And you have
51:46to do the same. You encounter a mountain
51:47lion along a trail,
51:49people will say, "Well, don't run. Get
51:50large." Okay. But, at some point, if it
51:52gets close enough, you've got to make a
51:54decision. Are you going to fight or are
51:55you going to run? Right? Or you could
51:57lay and play dead. So, these are These
51:59are life
52:01life-altering decisions, so to speak.
52:03And the computations are not super
52:06sophisticated. And this is no doubt
52:07relevant to everything we've been
52:08talking about, whether it's anterior
52:09mid-cingulate cortex or prefrontal
52:11cortexes that brain areas will ramp up
52:13their activity and cross thresholds,
52:15after which
52:17circuits are set in motion.
52:18Right? So, there's this kind of
52:20build-up. There's a There's Names that
52:22don't matter right now for it for this,
52:23but there's this kind of like build-up
52:24of chatter that exceeds a threshold, and
52:26then in a certain action is taken or
52:27withheld. And so,
52:30the thoughts about I just said I would,
52:33so I'm going to do it.
52:34I want to get back and see my kid being
52:36born. Gosh, I would feel such shame if I
52:39didn't do this. These are different
52:41paths into the same sets of Do I go
52:43forward? Do I stop? Or do I retre- Or do
52:47I quit? Retreating in this case would be
52:48quitting. And so, there's not It's
52:51sometimes fun to break things that are
52:52somewhat sophisticated, the
52:53psychological and the neurobiological,
52:55into ultimately, you got three choices.
52:58You can go forward in life, or at any
52:59moment, you can stop, or you can
53:01retreat.
53:03Or quit, as the case may may be. And
53:05sometimes that's the life-saving
53:06decision.
53:07>> Yeah, 100%.
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54:22Let's get back on the spokes
54:24>> Yes.
54:24>> for a moment
54:25>> And we did we've done three spokes
54:26already.
54:26>> Then we'll plow forward. Yeah, so I said
54:28I would.
54:29>> Mhm.
54:29>> Um
54:30I don't want to disappoint.
54:31>> Yep.
54:32>> And I've got something I really want to
54:33be there for. So that's sort of what we
54:35touched on so far.
54:36>> Mhm.
54:37>> How about I'm going to do this? I'm
54:39going to continue to do this
54:41because you said I couldn't, because
54:43they thought I couldn't.
54:45>> [laughter]
54:45>> You know, I find this one to be very
54:47prominent in the online space.
54:50But
54:51it's also one that as people get better
54:54and better and achieve more and more,
54:56they hear less and less.
54:58So it's you know, this is the this is
55:00the great you know, gift to the
55:03underdog. Right? You have you have fuel
55:06they're handing you fuel.
55:08>> Mhm.
55:08>> But when you win
55:10they're no longer you've obviously done
55:12it. Then it turns to well, they had all
55:15the right resources or something. But
55:16what How about this? Has anyone ever
55:18said to you there's just no way and that
55:21sparked something in you you're like now
55:22it absolutely like thank you. They just
55:24handed you a blank check.
55:26>> [laughter]
55:27>> Is the best way to put it. Exactly that.
55:29And and I I love what you said there
55:31because throughout my career, that's
55:33become less and less useful because less
55:35people doubt me. And I'm almost like ah.
55:37So when the the swim around Great
55:38Britain was probably the biggest one,
55:40and I loved that because it went on
55:41YouTube. Uh we were doing weekly vlogs.
55:43The very first vlog that we put out
55:45there, the comments, and I read through
55:47all of them uh cuz I was so excited. I
55:49was like, "Oh, this is going to be
55:50brilliant." Comments were just like,
55:52"He's far too big to be a swimmer. I
55:53think he's going to give up after 100
55:55km. He's not going to even make it on
55:56the South Coast." All of them, and I
55:58read them. What's What's actually
55:59interesting is I think it was like 5
56:01years ago I ended up going back, and
56:03somebody had commented on all of these
56:05comments and gone, "Well, this didn't
56:06age very well, did it?" And I [laughter]
56:08was like, "That made me feel so good."
56:10But what's so interesting is once we
56:12swam around Great Britain,
56:14people stopped doubting me. And so, I
56:15miss that.
56:17>> [laughter]
56:17>> When we said we were going to swim
56:18around Iceland, everyone was like, "Ah,
56:19I think he can do it this time." And I'm
56:20like, "Where are the Where are the guys
56:22who were trolling me? I need them back."
56:25But yeah, yeah, certainly around Great
56:27Britain, uh the 100% Going back to the
56:29spokes, that was a big one.
56:31>> So, are you moving dynamically between
56:32these things because one sort of loses
56:36its potency to keep keep you going?
56:38>> That is exactly the word I use as well.
56:41It it Anything that stimulates you. It's
56:43almost like going through your head like
56:44when you're changing the TV channel. And
56:46sometimes something can work, and it
56:48becomes so potent and you're swimming
56:50and you're like, "I'm swimming cuz
56:50people said I couldn't. This is
56:52amazing." But then the very next day you
56:54go, "Right, I'm going to tap into that
56:55again." You go, "Well, maybe maybe
56:56they've got a point."
56:57>> [laughter]
56:58>> Now, do I do I need to finish this? You
57:00need something else. And I think it's
57:02just like I would say your reasons to
57:04continue need to be bigger than your
57:05reasons to stop. And I love this
57:07conversation because we're identifying
57:08those different categories, those
57:10different spokes.
57:12Um
57:13and it's just knowing that what might
57:15work one day might not work the other.
57:17You know, and then and then sometimes
57:18for instance, one of the most potent was
57:20um I had some of my girlfriend, she
57:21ended up sending me uh a picture of the
57:23scan. You know, and it was one of the
57:25first scans that I ever saw of my son.
57:27That I just woke up 2:00 in the morning,
57:30cracked ice off my wetsuit, dived in,
57:32and I was like, "Oh, we're getting this
57:34done." So, it was different and and
57:36knowing knowing which one to go and I
57:38think as a coach as well, sometimes some
57:40of my friends who are amazing like I
57:41said Joe Kennedy, Chris Morgan, Olympic
57:44swimming coach as well, they'll know
57:46which buttons to push of mine in the
57:49right moments. I think all great coaches
57:51do that and then sometimes I have to do
57:53it myself as well.
57:55>> So, you've got a
57:56FU, I'm going to do this.
57:58>> Yep.
57:59>> FU, you said I couldn't.
58:00>> Yep.
58:00>> I'm going to do it. Let's talk about the
58:02other one that
58:04Doggins talks about sometimes, but
58:07even he talks about a little bit
58:09differently than
58:11F me.
58:12Like F me, I'm going to do this. Like
58:15so, what I'm doing here is going to the
58:17polar opposite. FU is like, you don't
58:19think I can do this? Watch.
58:20>> Mhm.
58:21>> Like I'll die trying. But then at some
58:23point if that potency runs down,
58:25wouldn't it be wonderful to run to our
58:27like move to our love for something as
58:28motivation, but sometimes
58:31F me. Like I am
58:34weak for even considering stopping. F me
58:36for even to like So, it's not a pleasant
58:40thought, but does it have potency for
58:42you? Do you Is that a source of
58:45continual pushing on the gas pedal?
58:47>> I think it is and to take that some
58:49probably slightly further, but slightly
58:51more specific, but I don't know if it is
58:52this,
58:53but but sometimes there'll even be a
58:55part of my body that is failing. So,
58:57it's not necessarily [ __ ] me, it'll be
58:59like [ __ ] you right shoulder.
59:02And I think so, it's that that I'll get
59:03angry at my body failing me and I'm
59:06like, "No, no, no, no, no, I'm taking
59:08you for a swim across the Arctic Circle.
59:10You're not stopping on me now." So, so
59:11it's like not just me, but there will be
59:13parts of me that I get really angry at
59:16if it's failing me. Is that the same do
59:18you think?
59:18>> Yeah, well, no and and you teed up
59:20beautifully what I was going to get to
59:22which it it's going to sit in a kind of
59:24uncomfortable place for some people
59:25listening. I just want to give that
59:27warning, but it's reality. Cuz what
59:30you're talking about when you see a scan
59:33an ultrasound of your unborn son and you
59:36want to meet the
59:37newborn son that is him,
59:40uh
59:41you're talking about
59:43somebody that's of you, half of you.
59:46Let's be fair, your wife did
59:47significantly more of the work. She
59:48gestated him, but you know, but but it's
59:51of the two of you and it's of you,
59:53right?
59:54I could imagine that if you saw a
59:55picture of
59:57your a family member's child that you
59:59told you would do this also.
1:00:01But at some point if I just show you a
1:00:02picture of a baby and I go do it for
1:00:04this baby, I imagine it's not going to
1:00:07do a whole lot.
1:00:08Okay? Unless there's some other story
1:00:09attached to that about you're raising
1:00:11charity for that child, etc., etc.
1:00:13>> Right, right.
1:00:14>> So this gets to a very important and I
1:00:16don't think dark, but it an important to
1:00:18acknowledge aspect of our wiring, which
1:00:20is one of the most fundamental aspects
1:00:22of our brain
1:00:23and our biology is we have to know the
1:00:25difference between us and not us.
1:00:28>> Mhm.
1:00:29>> And
1:00:30us it starts with us as the individual,
1:00:32then it extends to our kin. It extends
1:00:35to who we decide, you know, you can
1:00:37adopt, you can have friends, you can
1:00:39have a community, but it's the the
1:00:41ability to tap into motivation for us
1:00:44versus not us, even in the absence of
1:00:47competition, is extremely powerful. And
1:00:51it's rooted in the hypothalamus, like
1:00:52what this
1:00:53primitive brain structure that's
1:00:54essentially
1:00:56a set of switches. There's not a lot of
1:00:58thinking down there. It's it's forward,
1:01:00stop, or retreat.
1:01:02>> Mhm. Okay.
1:01:03>> It's mate or don't mate. It's fight or
1:01:05don't fight. It's quit or okay, and and
1:01:07you got eat or don't eat, right? You
1:01:09don't really have a lot of options that
1:01:10kind of eat, right? So
1:01:13So this is most visible, I think, in a
1:01:16We'll put a link to this. There's a
1:01:18beautiful illustration of this that's
1:01:20very brutal, which is a nature
1:01:22documentary where there's a lion being
1:01:24attacked by a pack of hyenas. This is
1:01:27real. And they're trying to tear its
1:01:28testicles off.
1:01:30They have a an awareness that if they
1:01:32tear off its testicles, it's unlikely to
1:01:34mate in the future and potentially limit
1:01:36the lion population. And they're not
1:01:38doing the math into the future. They've
1:01:39just learned this from each other or
1:01:41it's hardwired. Okay?
1:01:42Um many animals do this, right? And
1:01:45there's another lion
1:01:46who comes along and enters the fight to
1:01:49protect its
1:01:52its other lion, right? To Yeah. But the
1:01:54amazing thing is And then they ward off
1:01:56these hyenas and it's brutal and they're
1:01:57getting shredded up and they protect
1:01:58their testicles as they're doing it.
1:02:01But the amazing thing is just prior to
1:02:02this scene, those two lions were
1:02:04fighting.
1:02:05They were trying to kill each other and
1:02:07rip off each other's testicles. So
1:02:09there's a switch in the brain from
1:02:12me just guarding the self to us
1:02:16versus them. And And it's very dynamic.
1:02:18You can expand this out. Now humans have
1:02:19this ability to say, you know, my
1:02:21country, my team, my whatever, you know?
1:02:25Um and it can transcend all sorts of
1:02:27boundaries. And you can make it purely
1:02:29cognitive. But when you get down to the
1:02:30real
1:02:32like hardwired stuff,
1:02:34it's your DNA. It's your child or it's a
1:02:36child that you chose to adopt and raise.
1:02:38And so therefore it's your kid. And you
1:02:42would die before you would quit.
1:02:44>> [snorts]
1:02:44>> And so the strength of motivation, I
1:02:46would argue, is not We have this mental
1:02:48model of these spokes on balance.
1:02:51on a balance. But the the interesting
1:02:54thing about your example of your
1:02:55shoulder is you're like, "Uh-uh. You're
1:02:58not going to quit on me. In fact, you're
1:03:00not really of me right now, but you're
1:03:02enough of me that I'm going to keep you.
1:03:03You're not going to saw off your
1:03:04shoulder, but you're like You're kind of
1:03:06like, 'F you. I'm going and you're
1:03:08coming with me.'" And it your language,
1:03:10I'm not capturing it exactly right,
1:03:12actually encapsulates this this idea
1:03:15that the dynamic, and it is dynamic,
1:03:18concept of me versus us versus them is
1:03:22kind of what allows us to push through
1:03:23anything, whether it's a PhD thesis in
1:03:25neuroscience, which is
1:03:27not, as you described, but is it's long
1:03:29in a different way. It lasts years. It's
1:03:31uncertain.
1:03:32Probably won't kill you, as long as you
1:03:34have good lab technique, but it can it,
1:03:36you know, it can do its damage
1:03:38psychologically. And it's Pick any
1:03:40effort, medical school, parenting,
1:03:41whatever it is. The us not versus them,
1:03:44but us with a little bit of not us.
1:03:48That is the stuff that drove human
1:03:50evolution, exploration, technology
1:03:52development. And this is true for men
1:03:54and for women. I don't want to cast this
1:03:55in a purely Y chromosome framework. So,
1:03:58anyway, those are some thoughts and
1:03:59reflections. And I think your
1:04:00description of your shoulder is like,
1:04:02"Fuck you.
1:04:04You're coming with me." is pretty
1:04:06telling.
1:04:06>> Oh, sure. I Do you know, I I love what
1:04:09you said there as well. Do Do you find
1:04:11it's also the other way? The reason I
1:04:13bring that up is, you know, I lost my
1:04:14dad 4 years ago. And then the Iceland
1:04:17swim existed in this strange world of,
1:04:20you know, it wasn't just my dad. He was
1:04:21my mentor. He was my coach. And then, so
1:04:23I've lost my dad, and then I'm becoming
1:04:25a dad myself. And on the Iceland swim as
1:04:28well, as well as trying to get back for
1:04:29the birth of my son,
1:04:31I I I said when I when I wrote my book
1:04:33about Iceland, I said I want this to be
1:04:35almost a tribute to everything that my
1:04:36dad taught me and a letter to my future
1:04:39son. And certainly swimming as well, not
1:04:42to get too deep or spiritual religious,
1:04:44but I was in my head this got me through
1:04:46so many dark times. I just imagined that
1:04:49dad was sitting up there. He was a
1:04:50tennis coach. So, he's playing tennis on
1:04:52the tennis court in the sky up in
1:04:53heaven. And he's looking down. And And
1:04:55in me, it was just I would get
1:04:56goosebumps. It would invoke something
1:04:58visceral inside of me, primitive, that I
1:05:01would imagine my dad up in heaven just
1:05:02looking down. And just to everyone else
1:05:04up there just going to be like, "Yeah,
1:05:06that that that one right there. Swimming
1:05:08around Iceland, that one's mine. Yeah."
1:05:10And that just Oh, I just even now I
1:05:13could just swim for another 100 miles
1:05:15thinking of that. So that was something
1:05:17I I used as well. So would you say with
1:05:19that exact yeah, it goes both ways.
1:05:21>> those just listening I am nodding with
1:05:23big nods. I mean I've heard you describe
1:05:25on
1:05:26other podcasts, you know, your your
1:05:28running running running you're exhausted
1:05:30exhausted you see your son at the finish
1:05:32line.
1:05:33No caffeine, no injection of saline and
1:05:37all of a sudden you've got a jetpack on.
1:05:41Another cute baby at the finish line,
1:05:43probably not the same effect. [laughter]
1:05:45Probably not the same effect, but what
1:05:47you're talking about here is the ability
1:05:49for humans to pull on this
1:05:50transgenerational understanding of of
1:05:53us. Is so it's like the me piece is
1:05:56important, but the us
1:05:58that really is an an affiliative us
1:06:01is
1:06:02again, it's it's the the most potent
1:06:05fuel
1:06:07in the universe. Now the the sad side of
1:06:09this and I it sounds like you had a good
1:06:11relationship to your father on balance.
1:06:13You you you light up when you when you
1:06:16when you talk about him. You know, that
1:06:17the the sad thing and actually I think
1:06:20there's been some remedy in the
1:06:22online sphere is that a lot of people
1:06:25have a very complicated relationship
1:06:28with their parents. And
1:06:30or even horrible relationship with one
1:06:33or both of their parents. And under
1:06:34those conditions they have to look
1:06:36elsewhere to not just be a lone wolf.
1:06:39It's important to be able to be a lone
1:06:41wolf, but it doesn't take you the full
1:06:44distance. And I know there are a number
1:06:45of sayings about this like, you know,
1:06:47and people be like there's no I in team
1:06:49and these kinds of thing yeah, that's
1:06:51and those phrases are important, but
1:06:53what we're talking about here is very
1:06:54primitive circuitry. Like if you think
1:06:56about the driving force of evolution,
1:06:58right? It's like
1:06:59every species is trying to make more of
1:07:01itself and protect its young. In
1:07:02particular it's young. Your young. And
1:07:06once that's okay, then you can focus on
1:07:07other things.
1:07:09So, yeah, this is the this is the deep
1:07:11reality of the
1:07:13primate brain of which of which we are.
1:07:16Perhaps you a little bit more than the
1:07:17rest. I'm just kidding I'm just kidding
1:07:18man.
1:07:19>> [laughter]
1:07:19>> You earned that joke by being so damn
1:07:21fit in the endurance and strength stuff
1:07:23so I can I can jab a tiny bit. But
1:07:26there's another piece of this, right?
1:07:28Which is if people don't have that
1:07:31transgenerational
1:07:33pride and excitement and love to pull
1:07:35on,
1:07:36they have to look elsewhere. And you
1:07:38know, for a long while I've thought
1:07:39that, you know, Jocko Willink has kind
1:07:42of been the football coach to a lot of
1:07:44guys that didn't play football.
1:07:45>> That's a great way to put it.
1:07:47>> commander. I mean, dude is First of all,
1:07:49he's a good friend of mine and he's
1:07:50every bit as kind and driven and cool as
1:07:53he comes across, even more so in person.
1:07:56Um,
1:07:56but he does not disappoint.
1:07:58But not everyone was in the military or
1:08:00played football and yet he's there for
1:08:02you encouraging you to be at your best
1:08:04through discipline and other things. And
1:08:07and there are other examples and Goggins
1:08:08and you and and and on and on and I
1:08:11think that
1:08:12uh it's really helped a generation of of
1:08:14men and women
1:08:16uh to like believe in themselves and
1:08:19have an affiliative sense of drive, not
1:08:22just be a lone wolf. And for that I
1:08:24think we we owe a debt of gratitude to
1:08:26to all those folks. Andy Stumpf, DJ
1:08:28Shipley, too many names to to rattle off
1:08:30and I forgive me cuz I'm missing a bunch
1:08:32of them. Cam Haynes and Rich Roll, you
1:08:35know, and on and on. But I I really
1:08:37think that
1:08:40deep in our brains below our our
1:08:41unconscious,
1:08:43it's like we're trying to check off
1:08:45these boxes of be okay.
1:08:48Once we're okay, who close to us or that
1:08:50we consider close to us can we bring
1:08:52along? In your case it was your
1:08:53shoulder.
1:08:55And then and then layer up from there.
1:08:57So, these days you're sitting uh, at a
1:09:01pretty high apex of what you do. And uh,
1:09:05Josh Waitzkin who has been on this
1:09:07podcast, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy, you
1:09:10know, incredible chess champion and
1:09:12performance coach for the Boston
1:09:13Celtics. He said, you know, when they're
1:09:15trying to become the champion, you're
1:09:16trying to become the champion. But when
1:09:18you're a champion, you're trying to
1:09:19defend the championship.
1:09:21And the mindset is completely different.
1:09:24So,
1:09:26where are you at right now? What what's
1:09:28like the next peak or do you feel like
1:09:30you're defending something or do you
1:09:32feel like you're looking for the next
1:09:33big challenge that will raise you up?
1:09:35What's the next rock to put in your
1:09:37backpack?
1:09:37>> I I'm searching for it at the moment and
1:09:40it's just it's got to tick a a few
1:09:43different boxes, I I think. Cuz it it it
1:09:45does feel like that. I think my my
1:09:4821-year-old self, like I said, Maslow's
1:09:50hierarchy, I just needed feelings of
1:09:51accomplishment, prestige. Even if
1:09:53someone said, "You're not going to earn
1:09:54any money from this, Ross." At 21, I'd
1:09:56just go, "Yeah, but I get the record,
1:09:58right?" And they go, "Yeah." And I'm
1:09:59like, "Well, that's enough. That's all I
1:10:00need." And well, I actually lost money.
1:10:02So, looking back, really irresponsible.
1:10:04I I didn't have a house and I had, you
1:10:06know,
1:10:07enough money to put down for a deposit
1:10:08on a house and the opportunity to to
1:10:12swim around Great Britain came up, but
1:10:13the the boat crew were like, "Look, we
1:10:14need a deposit on the boat. We need the
1:10:16crew and everything." And I remember I
1:10:18turned to Hester, I mean, again, this is
1:10:19how lucky I am. And I said, "Look, I
1:10:21should probably do the responsible
1:10:22thing, right? Uh, I'm 32 years old, get
1:10:25a house, get a mortgage. That would be
1:10:27the smart thing to do. Or do I take that
1:10:29money,
1:10:30put it on a boat and a crew and I try
1:10:31and swim around Great Britain?"
1:10:33And she looked at me and she just sort
1:10:34of went, "Ah, I hate to say it, but you
1:10:36you know, you might be old, 80 years old
1:10:38with loads of money and everything. You
1:10:40can buy loads of houses, but you're not
1:10:41going to be 31, 32 with the ability to
1:10:44swim around Great Britain. So, I think
1:10:45you need to put it on the boat." That
1:10:46was my girlfriend. And I was just like,
1:10:49"Thank you. I think you're right." So,
1:10:50we did. It paid off. But I lost money
1:10:53swimming around Great Britain. Whereas
1:10:54now, not to sound like a commercial
1:10:56mercenary, but I'm like, you want me to
1:10:58do a swim, I need to be paid. I can't
1:11:00just keep doing this. I've always It's a
1:11:01very expensive hobby. And I think now,
1:11:03it is so lucky that I have got to a
1:11:05point where you could call it a career
1:11:07in inverted commas. And I think that's
1:11:08interesting as well, cuz I think
1:11:09sometimes
1:11:11the idea of talking about money
1:11:13with these sorts of events, it's almost
1:11:15it's a bit, you know, a dirty word.
1:11:17Whereas I I always like you know, your
1:11:19ikigai, that the Japanese concept,
1:11:21saying, you know, your ikigai is your
1:11:22reason for being. Why do you get up in
1:11:24the morning? Make up of four things,
1:11:25what you love, what you're good at, what
1:11:27the world needs, and what you can be
1:11:29paid for. But it needs to be all four.
1:11:32And I think so often, people will do
1:11:34these and they forget the what you can
1:11:35be paid for. And you almost become
1:11:38like a martyr, as well, you know, and
1:11:40you're not making any money.
1:11:41Whereas with me, I'm really, really
1:11:43fortunate. So, to answer your question
1:11:45as well, just to be so, so honest, you
1:11:46know, if someone came along and do this
1:11:48swim, and here's a check, I'm like,
1:11:50right, going back to the us, then I'm
1:11:52like, amazing. That helps my my son and
1:11:56any future kids that we want to have as
1:11:57well. So, it's so money
1:11:59It's It sounds bad, [laughter] but
1:12:00that's become a thing as well. Yeah.
1:12:02>> Yeah, I mean, I don't think money is a
1:12:03dirty word, especially not in the
1:12:04context you're talking about, earned
1:12:06honestly through incredible endeavors,
1:12:08and it to serve your family, and
1:12:11I've been living in Los Angeles for a
1:12:12few years now. It's an interesting
1:12:14place, you know, there are a lot of
1:12:15success stories here. There are a lot of
1:12:17broken dreams here, too. And it's not
1:12:19uncommon to encounter somebody who's
1:12:21still so driven to make it, and has not
1:12:24made it, that they essentially cashed in
1:12:26everything else. You know, I've
1:12:28tremendous respect for the endurance
1:12:29community, and also for the strength
1:12:31training community, but one of the
1:12:32saddest things I ever
1:12:34ever saw it was I love this movie about
1:12:39Westside Barbell, but there's this one
1:12:41scene where a guy who was doing the
1:12:44who's training with with Louie and those
1:12:45guys, talks about missing something of
1:12:49like a his son's event, because it was
1:12:51bench press night.
1:12:53And
1:12:55the regret that he still lives with
1:12:58I don't know if his son I can't remember
1:13:00if his son passed or if they're out of
1:13:02touch. I don't know. But in any case, he
1:13:03was so driven by this particular goal
1:13:06that he missed some critical moment in
1:13:09his child's life and it still haunts
1:13:11him.
1:13:12And no one wants to be that guy or gal.
1:13:16Nobody wants to be that.
1:13:18Nobody wants to be that. And I think
1:13:20that
1:13:21you know, it it money is a tool to, you
1:13:25know, to allow, if I may, your son to be
1:13:27able to pursue what he finds most
1:13:29enriching. Something tells me he may be
1:13:31swimming with you at some point, but
1:13:33you'd hate for him to have feel the
1:13:35pressure.
1:13:35>> Yeah. My dad's a scientist.
1:13:37>> And I loved science as a kid and then
1:13:39when we had some friction, I resisted
1:13:41becoming a scientist and then at one
1:13:42point I'm like, this is ridiculous. I'm
1:13:45like, I'm going to destroy my life for
1:13:46all the wrong reason. I decided to
1:13:47become a scientist and now we we have a
1:13:50great relationship and we talk about
1:13:51science all the time. But the core
1:13:54component that we're talking about here
1:13:56is our our biological understanding of
1:13:58us and once we are
1:14:00well enough, then we can take care of
1:14:01others that are in our closest spheres
1:14:03and then it can radiate out. Like so if
1:14:05you can check the box of being okay and
1:14:07then some, you can do more and more and
1:14:09more for more and more and more people.
1:14:10>> 100% yeah.
1:14:11>> Right? Like martyring oneself for
1:14:13everybody and not being able to take
1:14:15care of your family or yourself,
1:14:17that's not good.
1:14:19>> No.
1:14:19>> So, I don't think you should feel any
1:14:21shame about your desire to make money.
1:14:23>> Okay. So that that can be a spoke on the
1:14:25thing.
1:14:25>> you make, the more people you'll be able
1:14:27to be able to take care of well. There's
1:14:29this implicit assumption that with more
1:14:30money you're just going to buy more
1:14:31stuff for you. But what about you can do
1:14:34more stuff for the rest of the world?
1:14:35>> 100% yeah, yeah. So I would put that
1:14:37down as one of the spokes. Certainly
1:14:39swimming around Iceland, it was like,
1:14:41look, you complete this, you make money.
1:14:43So sometimes that got me through a few
1:14:44swims. Not as much as the other spokes
1:14:46that we've been talking about, but it
1:14:48was there to identify. It was like you
1:14:50finish this, that's another world
1:14:52record, you can monetize that. So, yeah,
1:14:54that was let's put that down as one
1:14:56spoke as well.
1:14:57>> Great. I've said this before and I'll
1:14:58say it again that
1:15:00money cannot buy happiness.
1:15:02It's true, but it can certainly buffer
1:15:04certain kinds of stress. And anyone who
1:15:06says different probably has a lot of it.
1:15:08So, you know, that's just reality. And
1:15:10and depending on where one lives and
1:15:12what their basic needs are and
1:15:14extravagant needs are, etc., that those
1:15:16numbers differ, but it can certainly
1:15:18buffer certain kinds of stress. Um end
1:15:20of story. And that that's always been
1:15:22true, it will always be true.
1:15:24Um you should be paid for the work you
1:15:26love and that serves the world. That's
1:15:28the that's the goal. You've talked
1:15:29before and I'm very interested in this
1:15:31notion of dark energy versus light
1:15:33energy. You know, FU energy is powerful,
1:15:36but there's this assumption that it
1:15:39drains us more quickly than I love you
1:15:42energy. And I think that's true because
1:15:45of the relationship to dopamine and and
1:15:47other chemicals to love and positive
1:15:50like generative things versus just FU
1:15:53energy. These are some of my favorite
1:15:55experiments, but their their outcome is
1:15:57kind of dark, but telling about human
1:15:59nature. Robert Heath was a neurosurgeon
1:16:02um and he had patients with
1:16:04electrodes embedded in many different
1:16:06places in their brain and they could
1:16:07self-stimulate.
1:16:09And some stimulation areas would lead to
1:16:12feelings of drunkenness, others sexual
1:16:14arousal, others would make them giddy,
1:16:16others would make them tired. And so, he
1:16:18let them basically self-stimulate at
1:16:19will. And
1:16:21it wasn't a ton of patients that had
1:16:23this as you can imagine, but
1:16:25across all of them, the area of the
1:16:27brain that they preferred to stimulate
1:16:29the most by a pretty impressive margin
1:16:32was the area of the brain that turns out
1:16:35to be the midline thalamus where they
1:16:38would experience mild frustration and
1:16:40anger. They found it to be incredibly
1:16:43arousing.
1:16:44Incredibly motivating, incredibly useful
1:16:48in a way that sitting in the chair with
1:16:50their head in a stereotax was totally
1:16:52useless, except they just really liked
1:16:54it.
1:16:55>> [snorts]
1:16:56>> And it's telling, a little dark, but
1:16:58telling because it speaks to humans
1:17:00desire to have a me versus them kind of
1:17:03feeling.
1:17:03>> Mhm.
1:17:04>> Like
1:17:05>> [clears throat]
1:17:05>> frustration. That arousal
1:17:08again, drives
1:17:10all sorts of things whereby maybe
1:17:13otherwise we would become complacent.
1:17:16>> That's fascinating. See, I love what you
1:17:18said there because I think when you look
1:17:20at the the anthropology of us humans,
1:17:21the history of us humans, it's it's so
1:17:22interesting that people sometimes go to
1:17:24me, "Why why do you do these swims? Like
1:17:26why just put yourself through that?" And
1:17:27I go, "Well, I think humans have always
1:17:30had this idea of kind of self-discipline
1:17:32for self-discovery." You look for across
1:17:34different cultures, whether it was the
1:17:35Yamabushi monks of Japan, for instance,
1:17:38I actually live with them for a little
1:17:39bit. We went on a It's called an
1:17:40Okugake. It's a pilgrimage. You meditate
1:17:43under ice cold waterfalls, drink green
1:17:45tea, and basically do a marathon a day
1:17:47in the mountains. was their church. You
1:17:49know, it was brutal, blisters, and yet
1:17:51you wear basically these like sort of
1:17:53wooden sandals, as well. It was
1:17:55horrible. You look at the Aborigines
1:17:57going walkabout. You know, there's the
1:17:59Masai tribe. This We've always been
1:18:01doing something. So, I think that's so
1:18:03strange that were they just hitting the
1:18:05button, you know, on frustration and
1:18:08stuff? Like this Do you think that is Do
1:18:10you think that's tapping into exactly
1:18:11the same experiment?
1:18:12>> I do. I mean, I I picked a hard career
1:18:14for me, you know,
1:18:16uh
1:18:17you know,
1:18:18science is hard, it's slow, it's
1:18:21grueling, and then you have
1:18:22breakthrough. And you know, and like so
1:18:23I got very accustomed to that. But, I
1:18:25think that we all kind of crave that,
1:18:28but shy away from it, too. It's
1:18:30exhausting if there isn't some sort of
1:18:33reward loop in there to kind of re-up
1:18:35us. And so, I think all cultures have
1:18:38it, all careers have it. Uh my friends
1:18:40who are visual artists, they certainly
1:18:43have it. Their torment is part of their
1:18:45fuel.
1:18:47And they run this dial that we're
1:18:49talking about, this uh the spokes on
1:18:52this thing that we haven't yet named
1:18:54that maybe we'll name at the end. Um
1:18:56you'll name at the end.
1:18:58I think it's what we're talking about is
1:19:00is tapping into drive and motivation,
1:19:02but with a purpose.
1:19:04>> Mhm.
1:19:05>> The purpose can vary in in time. And I
1:19:07think all cultures have understood this.
1:19:09I mean, to some extent, we're all sort
1:19:11of neuroscientists. It's just that some
1:19:13people look with a like with a with more
1:19:16precise tools, right? And and give
1:19:17things names. But I consider you a
1:19:19neuroscientist from the perspective of
1:19:21like what your level of self-analysis as
1:19:24you you do these things.
1:19:25>> On that note, very quickly as well,
1:19:27there was another one and I wanted to
1:19:28say to get your opinion on this because
1:19:30I again, this is going to sound so
1:19:31strange, but I lived with the German
1:19:33hour tribe in in the Amazon jungle for a
1:19:35while. We did ayahuasca for an entire
1:19:38week. It was this ceremony.
1:19:40Um I was 21 at the time. Uh just
1:19:42finished kind of professional sports.
1:19:43I've never touched drugs, anything like
1:19:46that. Um
1:19:47very much adhered to the water band
1:19:49substance list. And then
1:19:50for this documentary, they dropped me in
1:19:52the middle of the Amazon jungle and
1:19:53they're like, "Here you go. This is
1:19:54ayahuasca." I didn't even know what it
1:19:55was. And I was like, "What? So, it's
1:19:56kind of like makes me giddy? Is it like
1:19:58alcohol?" And they were like, "Uh a bit
1:20:00stronger than that."
1:20:02I take it. Basically, throughout the
1:20:04entire week as well. My my first was
1:20:06like the the worst trip like ever. I did
1:20:08everything wrong. And and it was
1:20:10actually explained to me. My friend, for
1:20:12instance, um Ruben, he works at
1:20:14Glastonbury, so he's done all sorts of
1:20:17drugs. And I remember I was sitting
1:20:19there.
1:20:20First of all, I was sweating as like
1:20:21somebody had thrown a bucket of water
1:20:23over me. I was sweating like that. Then
1:20:24my tongue swelled so it was bigger than
1:20:26my mouth. I was speaking like this. And
1:20:28then you projectile vomit, so it just
1:20:30purges my system. At this point, I'm
1:20:33like, "Right, I need out of this." So, I
1:20:34turn and I look at Ruben to my right.
1:20:37He's found a feather on the floor and
1:20:38he's licking it to taste the colors. I
1:20:40was like, "Ah! I was like, you can't
1:20:42help me, can you?"
1:20:43>> [laughter]
1:20:44>> It went so wrong. That was the first
1:20:46night. It was then It was later
1:20:47explained to me, it's like getting on a
1:20:48roller coaster, Ross. You can't get off.
1:20:50You know, there's no You can't fight it.
1:20:52Just You've got to just sit it out.
1:20:54Fast forward for the entire week, and
1:20:56then
1:20:58it Basically, it was this again, sort of
1:21:00self-discipline through self-discovery.
1:21:02So, there was various tasks that we had
1:21:04to do. We basically had to We We caught
1:21:05a snake. It's going to sound so weird.
1:21:07I'm so sorry. I apologize now. You had
1:21:09to bite the tongue of the snake out of
1:21:11its mouth. They then explained to us
1:21:14that you have now got the wisdom of the
1:21:17snake, but you cannot speak. If you
1:21:19speak, the spirit of the snake will hunt
1:21:21you for the rest of your life. So, the
1:21:22next 48 hours, you cannot speak.
1:21:24>> Live snake?
1:21:25>> Yeah, yeah. Live snake. Yeah, they open
1:21:26its mouth, and you just You basically
1:21:27just tongue it.
1:21:28>> I hate [laughter] snakes. But I I But I
1:21:30respect them and their right to live,
1:21:32but I do not like snakes.
1:21:34>> I get I get it. I'm not proud of this.
1:21:36But then, when you're taking this vow of
1:21:38of silence, you then have to go through
1:21:40various different tasks. So, I had to
1:21:42climb a tree. I'm holding onto this
1:21:44tree, maybe 4 m in the air, and they
1:21:46just smack the bottom of the tree, and
1:21:48then fire ants just disappear up the
1:21:50tree, and they just start biting you.
1:21:52So, you've done a week of ayahuasca.
1:21:55You've bitten the tongue out of a snake,
1:21:57and then you're holding onto a tree as
1:21:59fire ants are biting you. You get down,
1:22:01they immediately take you to another
1:22:02tree.
1:22:03There's a hornet's nest. You see where
1:22:05this is going. Bang, hit the hornet's
1:22:07nest. You just have to sit there and
1:22:08just take the stings and not make a
1:22:10sound.
1:22:11But what was so strange, so strange, and
1:22:14I love that you've brought up this
1:22:15study, is
1:22:16having completed all of that and been
1:22:18initiated with the Jamamaru tribe, the
1:22:21feeling that I had afterwards, whether
1:22:22it was ayahuasca induced, whether it was
1:22:24the pain, I don't know, but it was just
1:22:27cathartic. It felt good that at the end
1:22:30of the ceremony, there was a I don't
1:22:32know, not euphoria, but I was like,
1:22:35"Wow, you know, we did it." And it's so
1:22:38strange. I'm not
1:22:39>> [laughter]
1:22:39>> I'm not advocating or recommending it to
1:22:41anyone, but it was weird that maybe I
1:22:43was just pushing that button in the
1:22:45brain. Listening to that study, there
1:22:47are so many times in my life when I was
1:22:50pushing the button.
1:22:51>> I'd like to take a quick break and
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1:23:34So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I
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1:24:12>> I mean, I think a lot of people are more
1:24:14or less addicted to social media because
1:24:16of its ability to tap into
1:24:19mild anger and frustration-provoking
1:24:23circuitry, drama.
1:24:24>> Mhm.
1:24:25Us them. I mean is it you know that
1:24:28not to be, you know, ultra repetitive,
1:24:30but this us them thing is is like it's
1:24:32at our core
1:24:34of our circuitry. And the more you can
1:24:36tap into it,
1:24:38the more engagement you can get from the
1:24:40brain. It's very, very powerful. I mean
1:24:43I mean and it can be used to benevolent
1:24:46ends, you know, fighting evil, you know,
1:24:49this kind of thing, but it's interesting
1:24:51because the the psychedelics
1:24:52I've never done ayahuasca, but certainly
1:24:54psilocybin and others like the ego
1:24:56dissolution that's supposed to occur
1:24:58with those is supposed to make you feel
1:25:00less of self versus other boundary, you
1:25:02know, connected to other [clears throat]
1:25:04beings, the universe, etc. It's supposed
1:25:05to dissolve these, you know, the the me
1:25:08us versus them boundary, including
1:25:12humans to animals, humans to plants. I
1:25:14mean, that's a lot of the the theory
1:25:16anyway. Maybe I just need to do more
1:25:18psychedelics.
1:25:19>> [laughter]
1:25:19>> And maybe not.
1:25:21These are powerful tools. Um
1:25:23I want to talk about something um
1:25:26for a moment, which is stakes. Not beef
1:25:29steaks, although those are wonderful,
1:25:30too. So, there's a really cool study
1:25:32that came out in the last couple of
1:25:34years about why
1:25:36we choke.
1:25:38Why we choke.
1:25:40It's a study in a non-human primate, but
1:25:43it certainly has relevance to humans cuz
1:25:45there's an analog study done in humans.
1:25:48So, here's the idea. Let's say you're
1:25:50throwing darts and we bet
1:25:522 lb
1:25:54per round of darts. I don't actually
1:25:56know the details of the game darts, so
1:25:58forgive me, but let's let's or
1:25:59billiards, but let's make it simpler.
1:26:01Let's hit billiards and and we say 2 lb,
1:26:03okay.
1:26:04You'll perform your best, I'll perform
1:26:05my best, depending on how competitive we
1:26:07are, depending on your our skill level,
1:26:09relative skill level, somebody will win,
1:26:11somebody will not win, etc. Okay, now we
1:26:14bet 100,000 lb.
1:26:16Okay, well, now we're paying a lot more
1:26:18attention to how we're playing. It will
1:26:20likely bring out your best and my best.
1:26:21We'll see who wins.
1:26:24But, let's say
1:26:25we bet 2 million lbs.
1:26:28At some point, what happens and they've
1:26:30done the brain recordings to support
1:26:32what I'm about to say, at some point
1:26:33when the stakes are extremely high,
1:26:37the motor cortex starts to recruit too
1:26:39much circuitry and we can't perform
1:26:41well. It's not that we can't do the
1:26:43thing, it's that too many commands are
1:26:45being sent into the system. And we start
1:26:48incorporating musculature and a
1:26:50connective tissue that normally needs to
1:26:52be excluded in order to have the
1:26:53precision of the the shot.
1:26:56When you're doing these long endurance
1:26:58events, it's slightly different because
1:26:59you can afford to have an imperfect
1:27:01stroke now and again or pretty often and
1:27:04you'll still continue. But, how much
1:27:06attention are you paying to A, your form
1:27:09and your desire to do things {quote}
1:27:11perfectly in a moment and how much
1:27:14attention are you paying to the stakes?
1:27:16Like, what's at stake here? Your
1:27:18reputation, your ego, your family, your
1:27:21whatever.
1:27:22How much in mind
1:27:25are the stakes?
1:27:26>> What's so interesting about what you
1:27:27said, I think for me, like on the Yukon
1:27:30swim for instance, it's almost um
1:27:33anticlimactic when you start it. It was
1:27:35the same with the Iceland one as well
1:27:36actually in the it's not a heroic start.
1:27:40There's no like dive. It's not There's
1:27:42no fine motor skills. It's not like a 50
1:27:44m to swim where everything has to be
1:27:46completely dialed in and if something
1:27:47goes wrong because the stakes are too
1:27:49high and you're hyper-aroused, it it's
1:27:52not like that. It's kind of knowing this
1:27:53isn't going to be over quickly, you
1:27:55know, even if I have a bad start, it's
1:27:56fine. I've got 100 days, you know. So,
1:27:58for me, when it's ultra-endurance,
1:28:01less so. However, with that said,
1:28:04there's definitely times where
1:28:07the stakes are high, there's all these
1:28:09reasons, both negative and positive, and
1:28:12things aren't going well.
1:28:14And there's times where I've gone, "Do
1:28:15you know what? Just swim for the
1:28:17enjoyment of it, Ross. Do you Do you
1:28:19know Let's Let's just remove everything
1:28:20else."
1:28:21And I And only now speaking to you, I
1:28:24realize that it's maybe because it was
1:28:25just bubbling away, bubbling away, you
1:28:26know, and then and we were getting close
1:28:28to that threshold where I would start to
1:28:30just recruit my And it would become
1:28:33deteriorating in terms of my technique.
1:28:35There was times when I just went, "I'm
1:28:37I'm not even looking at my watch." I'd
1:28:38say to the crew, "Don't even tell me
1:28:40what speeds I'm doing. Just I'm just
1:28:41going to swim. I'm just going to enjoy
1:28:44being out here." Because it is a
1:28:45privilege to be swimming over the Arctic
1:28:47Circle with dolphins, you know, chasing
1:28:49me and stuff. And And that's where I'd
1:28:50go, "Ross, stop caring." Just, you know,
1:28:53"We'll care tomorrow, but now just stop
1:28:55caring." Yeah. So, it's reduce the
1:28:57stakes in your head.
1:28:59>> Interesting. It These swims um are very
1:29:02long, and as you said, can can continue
1:29:0550-plus hours.
1:29:07Do you notice that your motivation, your
1:29:09energy waxes and wanes according to your
1:29:12circadian rhythm?
1:29:13>> So much so. Certainly at the start of
1:29:15the Iceland swim, because it was in the
1:29:17summer, we had almost 24 hours of
1:29:18daylight. And it was crazy how I just I
1:29:21never got that deep restorative sleep.
1:29:25Also as well, we were doing 6 hours on,
1:29:266 hours off. So, you you're working with
1:29:28the tide as well. So, it doesn't matter
1:29:29if it's 2:00 in the morning, 2:00 in the
1:29:31afternoon. When the tide changes, you
1:29:32get in. And I think just understanding
1:29:35that motivation was so closely linked to
1:29:38my circadian rhythm. And where where I
1:29:40was wasn't getting restorative sleep,
1:29:42sometimes if we got storm-bound, I had
1:29:45the privilege of sleeping for 8 hours,
1:29:47you know, 10 hours. And the next day, it
1:29:49was like somebody just dialed up the
1:29:51brightness on the world again. And I was
1:29:53like, "Oh, things aren't Things aren't
1:29:54so bad, you know? This is okay. I can do
1:29:56this." But But sometimes, again, if
1:29:58you're not sleeping circadian rhythm, 24
1:30:00hours of daylight, tide on, tide off,
1:30:03I was so aware that I couldn't trust my
1:30:05own brain. And that that
1:30:07neurotransmitters, chemicals, things
1:30:08that were all against me, depleting
1:30:10serotonin, dopamine. And that was just
1:30:15you now have no motivation, hormonally,
1:30:18chemically, biochemistry.
1:30:20It was It was something else. Maybe it
1:30:22was the anterior mid-cingulate cortex. I
1:30:24don't know, but it's like it's
1:30:25discipline. Motor You have no motivation
1:30:27today, Ross. This is disgusting. Your
1:30:29tongue's falling off. It's gray. I'm
1:30:31getting smashed by jellyfish.
1:30:33And then there was the odd time where it
1:30:36was nice to swim. I mean, you'd wake up,
1:30:38there would be, you know, rainbow, the
1:30:40fjord, frozen fjord. And I'd be like,
1:30:42"Ah, this is, you know, the northern
1:30:43lights, swimming under the northern
1:30:44lights, looking up at the Valkyries.
1:30:46This is amazing."
1:30:48But 90% of the time it wasn't as well.
1:30:51>> They should have told us all in the
1:30:53third grade
1:30:54that don't believe any of your thoughts
1:30:57that occur between 2:00 and 5:00 a.m.
1:30:59That's one I tell myself all the time.
1:31:01Just don't believe it. I now I don't
1:31:02believe anything my brain tells me
1:31:03between 2:00 and 5:00 a.m. And I think
1:31:06they also should have told us that
1:31:08one of the great reasons to get to a
1:31:11point with something, anything,
1:31:12physical, cognitive, emotional, etc.,
1:31:14where you feel like what's the point is
1:31:16so that you can experience the point
1:31:18coming back into your mind. And you
1:31:20realize, "Oh, there going to be moments
1:31:22in life where I just think like what's
1:31:23the point?" But there will be this
1:31:25moment ahead of it that
1:31:28the the the logic of it, the the
1:31:30positive emotions associated come back.
1:31:32And then you realize the brain it tricks
1:31:35itself into thinking that what's
1:31:36happening right now is going to go on
1:31:37forever.
1:31:39And and that to me was like the
1:31:41the like the biggest insight. It came
1:31:43not from me, but from my friend Ryan
1:31:45Soave, who's um this incredible
1:31:48trauma therapist. And he helps addicts.
1:31:51And he's been on this podcast before.
1:31:52And he said, "If you can tolerate a
1:31:54certain amount of emotional discomfort
1:31:56for 1 second, then you can tolerate it
1:31:58for 10 seconds. And if you can tolerate
1:32:00it for 10 seconds, you can do it for a
1:32:01minute, and so on, and so on. He said,
1:32:02"But the problem is negative emotions
1:32:05make us feel, for some reason, like
1:32:07they're going to go on forever. Positive
1:32:09emotions don't have the same effect. We
1:32:10tend to think, "This is going to stop at
1:32:12some point." And then we lose It's like
1:32:14grasping fog, and it goes away. I don't
1:32:16know what that is. I don't have an
1:32:17explanation for it, but it is a
1:32:19diabolical feature of our wiring.
1:32:21>> It is. And and and it's that is such a
1:32:23skill in that moment, when the dark
1:32:26clouds are over you, to be like, "I
1:32:27can't trust myself." And also, even as a
1:32:29team as well, there was times where, you
1:32:31know, we're caught in a storm. I didn't
1:32:32swim as far as I needed to that day. I'm
1:32:35angry at the team cuz they put me in
1:32:36against the tide. All sorts of things.
1:32:39And we almost like had a rule that,
1:32:41exactly to your point, between those
1:32:43periods,
1:32:44you don't argue. You don't try to have a
1:32:46We'll just go, "Do you know what? I'm
1:32:47going to sleep. I'll see you in the
1:32:48morning." You know, it's there's just
1:32:49there's no point in arguing about it now
1:32:51because we can't trust ourselves. And
1:32:53so, I think that was just to be really
1:32:55logical, rational.
1:32:57I talk a lot about stoicism because I
1:32:59found on my swim, sports psychology can
1:33:02only take you so far. But when I started
1:33:05reading about Marcus Aurelius, Seneca,
1:33:06Epictetus, I was like, "Well, this is
1:33:08this is more applicable." You know,
1:33:10control the controllables, accept the
1:33:12uncontrollables. This this feels better.
1:33:14You know, because with sports
1:33:16psychology, it's prehab, rehab,
1:33:18conditions are perfect. And that's easy.
1:33:21But what are you doing when your tendons
1:33:23in your shoulder are falling off, your
1:33:25tongue's falling off? And I'm like,
1:33:27stoicism helps me a little bit more.
1:33:29>> You said your tongue's falling off. What
1:33:30What are you referring to? Your actual
1:33:32tongue falling off?
1:33:33>> yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:33:33>> You shouldn't have bit that snake, dude.
1:33:36>> [laughter]
1:33:36>> See, that's what it is.
1:33:38No, you see, it's salt water exposure,
1:33:40basically. You know, the human body is
1:33:41not meant to be in salt water for that
1:33:42long. So, it extracts all the moisture
1:33:44from your tongue.
1:33:46Um on the the GB swim, for instance, we
1:33:48we sat It was about a week in, and I
1:33:50remember they made this amazing soup. It
1:33:52was just this rich vegetable soup. All
1:33:54the team were tucking into it. It was
1:33:56amazing, so full of vegetables,
1:33:58nutrients. But I looked over and I
1:33:59noticed that mine had I didn't know if
1:34:02it was pork or chicken. So I turned to
1:34:03the captain and said, "Why why haven't
1:34:05you got any pork or chicken? It's only
1:34:06in mine." And he just lent over and he
1:34:08went, "Ross, that's not pork or chicken.
1:34:10That's your tongue."
1:34:11>> [laughter]
1:34:11>> And it was falling off
1:34:13in the soup.
1:34:16I know. But coconut oil, for those for
1:34:17anyone listening who find yourself in a
1:34:19similar situation, coconut oil acts as a
1:34:21barrier, maintains the moisture. You
1:34:23keep yourself And it grows back. It it
1:34:24did grow back as well. So
1:34:26>> All right, let's get real honest here,
1:34:28Ross. Um is there anything in everyday
1:34:30life that you have to absolutely scruff
1:34:32yourself and and and you know, badger
1:34:34yourself into doing that is absolutely
1:34:36trivial in somebody else's eyes?
1:34:39And if the answer is no, that's fine. If
1:34:40you if you just like show up to Do you
1:34:43brush your teeth twice a day? They're
1:34:44nice and white. So, you know,
1:34:46>> [laughter]
1:34:46>> do you ever feel like I don't want to do
1:34:48this again? Or you just Do you just Do
1:34:50you ever think I don't want to do this
1:34:51like and you can't tell why?
1:34:53>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm Yeah. I think certainly
1:34:56if you spoke to my girlfriend, you know,
1:34:57house chores and things like that. I'm
1:34:58tell I'm so messy.
1:35:00>> [laughter]
1:35:02>> I'm so bad. I'm so bad. I'm really
1:35:03messy. And and for me
1:35:05again, maybe it's related to doping, but
1:35:06I just need those big, grand goals. So
1:35:10it's just yes, swim around Iceland, swim
1:35:12world's longest non-stop river swim.
1:35:13Yeah.
1:35:15Take out the trash.
1:35:16Do the do the washing up.
1:35:18>> Is it because it's too easy or it's too
1:35:20hard?
1:35:21>> I'm not sure. I'm just really bad at
1:35:23like admin and basic
1:35:25>> stuff.
1:35:26>> It goes goes back to what I said. If
1:35:27someone said, "Oh, swim the English
1:35:29Channel." I'm like, "It's been done."
1:35:31You know, it doesn't doesn't really
1:35:32appeal. [clears throat] So and I think
1:35:33it's the same in in like If you said
1:35:35there's a record for taking out the
1:35:37trash.
1:35:38No one's ever taken two tons of trash to
1:35:40the I'll be like, "Aha!
1:35:41>> [laughter]
1:35:42>> Hold my beer."
1:35:44So my girlfriend knows this, you know,
1:35:45she knows how to push my buttons. So she
1:35:47might do that.
1:35:48>> That's so good. If there was a
1:35:50competition
1:35:52>> [laughter]
1:35:52>> Significant others everywhere are taking
1:35:55note. A few minutes ago you mentioned
1:35:57something
1:35:58that told me that there are times when
1:36:01you can no longer advocate for yourself
1:36:04as like let's do this. I've got this.
1:36:06Okay, like your arm gives out. Let's go.
1:36:08Come on. You're going to bring the arm
1:36:09along like a member of your team. But in
1:36:11the moments where you're really down in
1:36:12the pit
1:36:14it sounded as if and I don't want to put
1:36:16words or thoughts into your mind, but it
1:36:17sounded as if you get outside of
1:36:19yourself and you're like we're going
1:36:21because
1:36:22this is the middle of the night and you
1:36:24know you don't like this, but you now
1:36:26become you sort of third person yourself
1:36:29and now you bring you along. And I think
1:36:31that's
1:36:32such an important tool
1:36:35for the times when there's no coach,
1:36:37there's no team, there's no goal in
1:36:39mind, it hurts like hell you don't see
1:36:43the point, you've run out of [ __ ] yous,
1:36:45you've run out of [ __ ] me's, you know
1:36:46you've just run out and you just have to
1:36:50transcend or exit yourself and just go
1:36:54let's go.
1:36:55>> 100%. Yeah, and and and I love that you
1:36:58asked that as well because again,
1:37:00certainly on the Iceland swim I took
1:37:03such inspiration from the berserkers.
1:37:04You know, so so for those who don't
1:37:06know, you know, the berserkers it
1:37:07literally means bear shirts. They would
1:37:08be wearing sort of these bear shirts.
1:37:10These ancient Nordic warriors who would
1:37:13enter into a battle frenzied state where
1:37:15they were impervious to pain and fear.
1:37:18Um there was even as well uh wolf
1:37:20warriors as well. So there was the
1:37:22berserkers but the wolf warriors uh
1:37:23embodied the spirit of the wolf. They
1:37:26would bite down on their shields when
1:37:28running to battle as well. Now
1:37:29historians some think they might have
1:37:31been using you know hallucinogenic
1:37:33mushrooms, others think it was maybe uh
1:37:35ritualistic chanting, breathing to get
1:37:37into this state. But whatever it was,
1:37:40they were no longer themselves. They
1:37:41were the spirit of that particular
1:37:43animal that they were embodying. And I
1:37:45think certainly towards the end of of
1:37:47the Iceland swim, I was lucky enough to
1:37:50to speak to this again, a sort of like a
1:37:52an old chief, and he said, "Ross, you
1:37:55need to stop thinking like a swimmer.
1:37:57You need to become a berserker. You need
1:37:58to just get in there and just think
1:38:00entirely differently." Again, it's
1:38:03Samuel Johnson, 17th century English
1:38:05writer,
1:38:06"Whoever makes a beast of himself gets
1:38:08rid of the pain of being a man." And I
1:38:10think for me, certainly on that South
1:38:12Coast, I was like, "Got to get rid of
1:38:15pain of being a man. Just become a
1:38:16beast." And I think it was that as well.
1:38:19Just no longer thinking of yourself,
1:38:21becoming that but also just becoming
1:38:24wolf warrior berserker.
1:38:26>> Amazing.
1:38:27>> Mhm.
1:38:27>> Do you like to read? It seems like you
1:38:29know a lot about these ancient
1:38:31traditions and tribes and
1:38:32>> I loved it. Yeah, I think
1:38:34cuz this is going to sound really
1:38:35strange as well. So, I lived in Namibia
1:38:38with the San Bushmen for a while.
1:38:39Amazing endurance athletes. We were
1:38:42covering a marathon a day, barely any
1:38:43water for an entire week. I remember all
1:38:46we had, we shared a porcupine between us
1:38:47as well. Just amazing athletes. But
1:38:49there was there was one particular guy
1:38:51in the the tribe and he he was part
1:38:54Namibian but he's also part of the the
1:38:55Kalenjin tribe, which I hope I'm getting
1:38:58this right, but it's basically an ethnic
1:38:59group that's that's specific to Kenya.
1:39:02And they produce more marathon runners,
1:39:05just elite marathon runners than than
1:39:07anywhere else. And he turned to me, we
1:39:09were sitting around this fireplace at
1:39:11one point, and he said, "Ross, do you
1:39:12know why people from the Kalenjin tribe
1:39:14are so good? Do you know why we're such
1:39:15great runners?" And I was like, "Yeah,
1:39:18like, you know, altitude training." He
1:39:20went, "Nope." And I was like, "Your
1:39:21diet?" And he goes, "Nope." And I was
1:39:23like, "Mhm, barefoot [clears throat]
1:39:23running, beautiful biomechanics, and you
1:39:26drill that from an early age." And he
1:39:27went, "No." And I was like, "Right, go
1:39:29on then, tell me."
1:39:30He says, "It's our pain tolerance. So,
1:39:32we have a tradition that when a boy is
1:39:35basically going into adulthood, we have
1:39:37him in front of the entire tribe. We
1:39:39take some mud, like clay, and we put it
1:39:41on his face.
1:39:42And then he has to stand in front of the
1:39:43entire tribe.
1:39:45The chief comes out, takes his tackle in
1:39:47his hand,
1:39:49circumcises him, which is essentially
1:39:51with like a bamboo shoot, you know,
1:39:52blood.
1:39:53>> penis.
1:39:53>> His penis. Circumcises him in front of
1:39:56the entire tribe.
1:39:58He cannot flinch. Cannot flinch, make
1:40:01any sounds. If the mud cracks on his
1:40:04face, then all of a sudden everyone in
1:40:06the tribe will be like, "Mhm, he's not
1:40:07desirable." So, he doesn't pass on his
1:40:09genes. So, it's this idea that he said
1:40:12that just generation after generation
1:40:14knowing that those where the mud doesn't
1:40:16crack are then considered desirable,
1:40:18then mate, then pass on their genes, and
1:40:20their offspring do exactly the same,
1:40:22exactly the same, exactly the same. And
1:40:23what you're left with is just this
1:40:25incredible group of people with their
1:40:28pain tolerance. I mean, with that as we
1:40:29were sat around the fire, he pulled out
1:40:31a knife and was like, "Ross, do you want
1:40:32to run faster?" I was like, "I'm good."
1:40:34>> [laughter]
1:40:34>> I'm I'm good.
1:40:36>> [gasps]
1:40:36>> But it I I think I'm fascinated to
1:40:38answer your question. I love looking
1:40:39back through history and just will take
1:40:42inspiration from anywhere and
1:40:44everywhere, even that if that is
1:40:46ritualistic circumcision. I've not done
1:40:48it with mud on my face, but I do find
1:40:50that stuff fascinating.
1:40:52>> Wow.
1:40:53>> [laughter]
1:40:54>> The the uh the alternate response would
1:40:56have been, "Look,
1:40:58I totally respect your tradition. I
1:41:00spend a lot of time in cold water. I
1:41:01need all the insulation I can get."
1:41:04>> [laughter]
1:41:05>> But but hey, uh
1:41:07you know, the your reply is up to you.
1:41:09>> Wow. Is there anything like that that
1:41:11you found with pain tolerance as well?
1:41:12Are there studies around that?
1:41:13>> Yeah, so I mean, on my list of things to
1:41:15discuss with you is the generalizability
1:41:17of of resilience training. You know,
1:41:19this is a fascinating and and still
1:41:22somewhat opaque area of science. I mean,
1:41:25you know, let me put this way. On the
1:41:26one hand, we know that there's a very
1:41:29limited and well-defined list of
1:41:31chemicals. Epinephrine, adrenaline
1:41:33released in the body. Norepinephrine
1:41:34released in the brain from the locus
1:41:36coeruleus. We can even get specific
1:41:37about locations and circuits. Dopamine,
1:41:40and if the stress is long enough,
1:41:42cortisol, that are associated with
1:41:45a higher arousal painful stimulus and
1:41:47other things, too. Right, dynorphin,
1:41:49which is sort of the opposite of
1:41:50endorphin. In any case, you'll
1:41:52experience a a rise in those whether
1:41:54you're getting into uncomfortably cold
1:41:56water, you're getting stung by hornets,
1:41:59or God forbid, you're
1:42:01you're experiencing a public
1:42:03circumcision and and you can't flinch.
1:42:06It's true, right? I mean, among other
1:42:07things, right? There are many, many
1:42:08other molecules and things happening
1:42:10there, but those but those undoubtedly
1:42:12are involved. So, then the question
1:42:13becomes
1:42:14can our memory system, our prefrontal
1:42:16cortex, and our memory system
1:42:18apply a set of rules whereby in a
1:42:22different stressor
1:42:23this thing, this arou this like negative
1:42:26arousal pain pain, can it is it familiar
1:42:29to us and can we then walk ourselves
1:42:31through it in a way that we understand,
1:42:32okay, this pain makes it feel like it's
1:42:35going to go on forever, but this too
1:42:36shall pass, right? And to some
1:42:38[clears throat] extent, the data say
1:42:39yes, in particular about deliberate cold
1:42:41water exposure, but that's a unique one
1:42:44because first of all, unless the water
1:42:46is very, very cold, and God forbid, ple
1:42:49people don't jump into an ice hole. I'm
1:42:51so tired of seeing people
1:42:53either do hyperventilation and then go
1:42:55into cold water and die, water of any
1:42:57kind and die, or videos of people
1:42:58jumping into ice holes and getting swept
1:43:00under. It's really It happens and it's
1:43:02awful, but deliberate cold exposure with
1:43:04a shower or a cold plunge done safely
1:43:07people can get familiar with the
1:43:09experience of being flooded with
1:43:10adrenaline and the fact that the mind is
1:43:13in complete disarray for the first 20 or
1:43:1430 seconds and then they can slow their
1:43:16breathing and grab hold of their mind
1:43:19and create a strategy to get through it
1:43:21or get out of it, whatever. This is This
1:43:23is stress inoculation training, right?
1:43:26The neurochemicals that are released
1:43:28don't change, but
1:43:30>> the inoculation piece is the familiarity
1:43:33and the ability to not further increase
1:43:35adrenaline through panic.
1:43:37So, in that sense, yes.
1:43:40But it's also true that if you look at
1:43:42the cognitive behavioral therapies
1:43:44around phobias, for instance, public
1:43:46speaking phobia, people can use
1:43:49cognitive behavioral therapy or a beta
1:43:51blocker for that matter
1:43:53to successfully overcome that.
1:43:55>> Mhm.
1:43:56>> Progressive exposure to the thing with
1:43:58you know, which basically means like not
1:44:00that much adrenaline. Okay, that's too
1:44:02much. Let's repeat this a few times and
1:44:03just
1:44:04kind of let them move through that, but
1:44:05it doesn't seem to translate to other
1:44:07stressful circumstances. Perhaps because
1:44:10the adrenaline is kept that be beneath a
1:44:13certain threshold.
1:44:14>> Mhm.
1:44:14>> So,
1:44:16I believe and based on my limited amount
1:44:19of work with, but certainly
1:44:20conversations with the you know, the
1:44:21tier one operator community and the the
1:44:24the use of cold water in all military
1:44:26branches, at least in the US, as a as a
1:44:28tool for building up stress tolerance,
1:44:30that yeah, it translates. Pain tolerance
1:44:33translates. But people are coming in
1:44:34with a with a sort of set um probably
1:44:38genetic and experiential
1:44:40um predisposition.
1:44:41>> Mhm.
1:44:41>> And and we see this, you know, I knew
1:44:43kids growing up whose pain tolerance was
1:44:45too high
1:44:47and they did really dumb stuff. And
1:44:49they're missing fingers or they're dead,
1:44:51right? Or they needed extreme
1:44:53consequences before they adjusted their
1:44:55behavior. Other people,
1:44:58they were around the corner when the
1:44:59discussion of a firecracker came up and
1:45:01they probably experienced too much
1:45:03anxiety in too many different domains of
1:45:04life. So, it
1:45:06I'm not trying to dodge the question,
1:45:08but I think we should be very careful
1:45:09about the idea that any one particular
1:45:11type of training makes us tough.
1:45:14>> Mhm.
1:45:14>> The the cold water swimmer
1:45:17might have a hard time listening in a
1:45:19hard conversation where the feedback
1:45:21they're getting is not pleasant.
1:45:23But they might be completely stoic and
1:45:25just think, this sucks, this sucks, this
1:45:27sucks, but I can calm myself through
1:45:29this. I can do this. If they can
1:45:31understand that the same underlying
1:45:33mechanisms are taking place.
1:45:34>> I see.
1:45:35>> Is that Is that I don't know if that's
1:45:36satisfactory
1:45:37>> no, that sounds Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:45:38>> But if I were to answer any other way,
1:45:39it wouldn't be um true to the data.
1:45:42>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of
1:45:43sense.
1:45:43>> You know, and I think cold water is a
1:45:45great training tool if done safely. I
1:45:48want to ask you about your training, uh
1:45:49your physical training. One thing that's
1:45:51peculiar about you, at least to me, is
1:45:53that you're you're pretty heavily
1:45:54muscled for a guy that's supposed to
1:45:55float in the water. So, um
1:45:59like uh what's that about? I mean, you
1:46:01do strength stuff, too. What What does
1:46:03your training look like now when you're
1:46:05in between sort of um these super
1:46:08events?
1:46:09>> I I love the strength training cuz I
1:46:10think it's so interesting that when
1:46:13doing the sort of swims I do, these
1:46:14ultra marathons, you know, around
1:46:15countries, it's you're taking swimming
1:46:19and conventional sports science and
1:46:20you're just moving outside of those
1:46:22realms. For instance, a lot of friends
1:46:24of mine who are amazing swimmers,
1:46:25Olympians,
1:46:27sometimes I'll ask questions like, "Oh,
1:46:28well, around Iceland, was it a two-beat
1:46:30leg kick or a four-beat leg kick? Are
1:46:32you bilaterally breathing? What's your
1:46:33VO2? What's your lactate threshold?" I'm
1:46:35like, "No, no, no, no."
1:46:37When you're caught in an Arctic storm
1:46:39and you are just windmilling, none of
1:46:40that matters. Strength training,
1:46:43especially with mechanotransduction,
1:46:44this idea that people think of strength
1:46:45training is just improving the strength
1:46:47of the muscles, but actually connective
1:46:48tissue, ligaments, tendons, they all get
1:46:50stronger as well. For me, that's why I
1:46:52strength train so much because on my
1:46:54swims,
1:46:55it's not my lactate threshold, VO2,
1:46:57technique, it will be a ligament or a
1:46:59tendon, something that gives up that
1:47:01will stop the swim physically.
1:47:03>> Got it. The chassis.
1:47:04>> Exactly, exactly.
1:47:05>> have the chassis break down.
1:47:07>> Exactly that. So, it's almost um I yeah,
1:47:10I joke, but friends of mine at
1:47:11Loughborough University, Adam Peaty, the
1:47:13greatest breaststroker the world has
1:47:14ever seen, he is amazing. He is poetic
1:47:17in the water. He is a mako shark. It's
1:47:20just beautiful to watch him. I am a
1:47:22chubby whale at best, you know, I am
1:47:24just there, you know, I'm just migrating
1:47:27basically. That That is what I'm doing.
1:47:28I'm not poetic in the water, but I just
1:47:31I won't stop. So, I think strength
1:47:33training, and it's only now cuz for so
1:47:35long in endurance it was a dirty word,
1:47:37you know, strength training. Whereas now
1:47:38we're understanding that certainly the
1:47:40idea of general physical preparedness or
1:47:41in your preseason, making the body
1:47:45physically robust enough to then endure
1:47:48the the intensity or the volume that you
1:47:50subject it to later. Um friend of mine
1:47:52at the English Institute of Sport had a
1:47:53great saying, it was like sometimes you
1:47:54need to train to train. You know, before
1:47:57I can subject you to 150 km in the pool
1:48:00a week, we need to make sure the
1:48:02connective tissue and everything there's
1:48:03no weak part of that kinetic chain. So,
1:48:05I think at the moment that that's kind
1:48:07of where we're at, that general physical
1:48:08preparedness.
1:48:10>> I'd like to take a quick break and
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1:49:36to save up to $200. I don't have
1:49:38anything even close to your physical
1:49:41abilities, but a few years ago I decided
1:49:43that I would do two kinds of training.
1:49:46I'd love your thoughts and how I can
1:49:47improve this. Um in addition to doing
1:49:49strength and endurance training and some
1:49:50sprints in the sun kind of thing. It It
1:49:52is more about the mental side. I was on
1:49:54a camping trip with my girlfriend for
1:49:55her birthday and we we did a a hike up
1:49:57Clouds Rest, which is one of my favorite
1:49:59hikes in Yosemite. It's about 14 mi up
1:50:01and back and and most anyone can do it
1:50:03with some level of endurance and
1:50:04physical ability. It's not grueling, but
1:50:06I had a sinus infection and it was her
1:50:08birthday and I'd been there before. She
1:50:10hadn't been there before and I wanted to
1:50:11like really show her a great time and
1:50:13she's really physically robust and and
1:50:15she was just motoring up and I was
1:50:17carrying a lot of water, granted, but I
1:50:19was struggling that day. And I decided
1:50:21at some point that I would
1:50:23I knew I was going to get to the top cuz
1:50:25the the hike is actually not that
1:50:26awesome along the way, but at the top
1:50:28it's just majestic. You're above Half
1:50:30Dome. It's so awesome. Uh you could run
1:50:32it. Uh I've run it in the past and I
1:50:34highly recommend it. It's just a
1:50:36fantastic fantastic hike for anybody.
1:50:39But along the way I realized I was
1:50:41really struggling.
1:50:42So I decided I would just watch I had
1:50:44this thing where I like I'm just going
1:50:45to watch the process and see what the
1:50:48what the cycles are. And I noticed the
1:50:49cycles went from something like "F this.
1:50:52This really sucks. I'm going to just
1:50:53push against that." to I would distract
1:50:56myself. I would think about something
1:50:58else. And then I would just sort of go
1:51:00into this kind of like
1:51:02liminal state and then it would repeat.
1:51:04It would go back to F this. And
1:51:05sometimes the time scale of those would
1:51:07be minutes and sometimes it would be
1:51:08like tens of minutes and so on. I
1:51:10thought this is kind of interesting.
1:51:11It's like three things, it's not 20.
1:51:12It's not It's not like all the spokes.
1:51:15It's like three and they're on repeat.
1:51:17>> Mhm.
1:51:17>> I was like, this is pretty useful. Like,
1:51:19I'm going to try and do this. And so I,
1:51:21you know, I in other areas. So now, when
1:51:23I run
1:51:25my longer runs, I think, okay, I'm
1:51:27either going to listen to something and
1:51:28distract myself, music, et cetera, pay
1:51:31attention to what's around, or there are
1:51:33some runs now that I do where I try and
1:51:34concentrate on every step and just try
1:51:36and make it as painful as possible. To
1:51:38just try and like build a resilience for
1:51:41each.
1:51:41>> Mhm.
1:51:42>> Cuz in a hard conversation, distracting
1:51:45yourself is actually not useful.
1:51:47So this may be where the translatability
1:51:49or non-translatability of of stress
1:51:51inoculation needs more of a fine point.
1:51:54The reason I'm bringing this up here
1:51:55like this is I I I feel like the sports
1:51:57performance and the psychological
1:51:59performance community needs like more
1:52:01refined tools. So maybe it should be go
1:52:04out, do the thing, and really just
1:52:06concentrate on just how much it sucks
1:52:08for as many seconds as possible. And
1:52:10every time you forget it sucks, you
1:52:12failed, right? For a moment. And then
1:52:15the other one would be learn how to
1:52:16distract yourself because there are
1:52:17conditions that are stressful where you
1:52:19want to distract yourself. And then like
1:52:20I've got a friend who's a neurosurgeon,
1:52:22and distracting himself during a
1:52:23stressful moment is like the exact wrong
1:52:25thing to do. Does that make sense?
1:52:27>> It makes complete sense.
1:52:28>> Okay. All right, cool. So maybe my hope
1:52:31is that people listen to you around
1:52:34performance, and they should listen to
1:52:35you because you actually do the stuff.
1:52:38My runs are trivial for you and for most
1:52:40people, but I feel like
1:52:42more specific tools with more
1:52:45aimed at specific outcomes, I feel like
1:52:47it's kind of what the general public
1:52:48needs.
1:52:49>> Mhm.
1:52:49>> So to become a better listener,
1:52:51learn to concentrate on the pain for
1:52:53long periods of time and not flinch.
1:52:55>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. But but I
1:52:57love what you said there as well,
1:52:59because this is something with the the
1:53:00Royal Marines, a friend of mine who's a
1:53:01psychologist there. And he was just
1:53:03saying, and then everyone listening will
1:53:05understand this, but when you're
1:53:06focusing on the outcome, if you're
1:53:08looking at the clock, if you're like,
1:53:10"How much further have I got to walk? Oh
1:53:11my god, is it You know, we've still got
1:53:1310 hours of walking stuff." You're
1:53:15thinking of the outcome, and he said,
1:53:16"You have to just focus on the process.
1:53:18For you, Ross, when you're swimming,
1:53:19it's putting one arm in front of the
1:53:21other as efficiently as possible. Is it
1:53:22a high elbow catch? Are you finishing
1:53:24your stroke?" And if you focus on that,
1:53:27the outcome becomes inevitable, but by
1:53:28focusing on the outcome, you're not
1:53:29focusing on the process. And I think for
1:53:31me, when my mind drifts sometimes, I
1:53:34come straight back to focus on the
1:53:36process as well. But, I love what you
1:53:38said there, because sometimes I just
1:53:40tune out, and I want to be anywhere but
1:53:42there. And I'll be thinking of some the
1:53:44weirdest things. Like my I'll do my
1:53:46shopping list for my Christmas shopping
1:53:48in my head, you know, and I'll just go
1:53:49somewhere completely different. But,
1:53:51sometimes I do really find just drilling
1:53:53back. Don't watch the clock. Don't look
1:53:55at the outcome. Don't ask how far you've
1:53:56got. I don't want to know. And that's
1:53:58that's quite easy to do sometimes when
1:54:00sea swimming, because you have no point
1:54:01of reference. You can't see land. So,
1:54:03you are just swimming immersed in your
1:54:05own thoughts. And some of the weirdest
1:54:07swims I did, um, under the northern
1:54:09lights, and you also get this uh
1:54:10phosphorescent algae. So, as you're
1:54:12swimming, the only way I can describe it
1:54:14is like you're swimming in a black hole.
1:54:16Like you turn to breathe, you see the
1:54:18northern lights, the Valkyries, their
1:54:19shimmering shields, and then you pull,
1:54:22and as you pull, this phosphorescent
1:54:23algae just lights up in your face. And
1:54:26there's moments like that where I'm
1:54:27like, "I don't want to be anywhere. I
1:54:29want to be so present. This is amazing."
1:54:31And then other times where I'm just
1:54:33like, "I want to be anywhere but here."
1:54:34>> And and it's and it's having that sort
1:54:36of
1:54:37you know, psychological adaptability to
1:54:39just flick between all of them. Use
1:54:41whichever one you need at that moment in
1:54:43time.
1:54:43>> The spokes.
1:54:44>> Mhm.
1:54:45>> Just go to whichever one's going to get
1:54:47you through it, and you need loads of
1:54:48different ones.
1:54:49>> We don't yet have a name for it, but
1:54:50maybe we're sort of veering towards
1:54:52something kind of akin to
1:54:54sort of like the the different spokes on
1:54:56the tire of resilience or something like
1:54:57that. It's exactly [clears throat] that.
1:54:59Something like that. I'm not I'm not to
1:55:00be poetic here. I'm not a Brit, nor am I
1:55:02Scottish, so I can't seem to nail the
1:55:05nail the nomenclature, but um
1:55:07I want to talk about vision and share
1:55:09with you something. Again, I came in
1:55:11like really excited to be able to share
1:55:13some of my favorite studies that
1:55:14hopefully
1:55:15would be of interest and perhaps of use
1:55:18to you and the listeners. So, be
1:55:19familiar with the myth of the Cyclops?
1:55:22>> No.
1:55:22>> Like the the guy with the one one eye in
1:55:24the middle of his head. So, there's this
1:55:26wild thing where um
1:55:29animals with the
1:55:30with their eyes on the side of their
1:55:31head tend to be prey animals and they
1:55:33have panoramic vision.
1:55:34>> Mhm.
1:55:34>> And animals with their eyes in the front
1:55:37can generate depth perception much
1:55:39better stereopsis and so on and they
1:55:41tend to be the predators. And there are
1:55:42some animals that can translocate their
1:55:44eyes to go from kind of panoramic to
1:55:46like more focused vision.
1:55:48There are a lot of ideas about the myth
1:55:49of the Cyclops, but when we move our
1:55:52vision, even though our eyes are fixed
1:55:54in our head towards a particular
1:55:56virgins point, like a target, it raises
1:55:59our arousal and our our ability to
1:56:01recruit energy, physical energy and
1:56:03mental energy. People in the fight game
1:56:05know this. When we dilate our gaze, we
1:56:08relax. We we come off the gas pedal a
1:56:11little bit. We can still do things, but
1:56:14we are actually because of the way that
1:56:16vision and time perception are linked,
1:56:17we can actually see more. Motion
1:56:20perception at the periphery gets better,
1:56:22obviously, cuz you're not looking
1:56:23through a soda straw, you're looking
1:56:24through in kind of panorama. But you are
1:56:27less able to recruit a lot of energy to
1:56:30one one location. There are a lot of
1:56:31examples of this in the animal world
1:56:33that I could spell out in this this
1:56:35scenario focused on for a long time, but
1:56:36we we won't go there. The myth of the
1:56:39Cyclops is in part, okay, is in part
1:56:42about a creature
1:56:43who only has soda straw vision
1:56:47and therefore is constantly angry and
1:56:49that anger is actually what leads to its
1:56:52demise. It can't see the big picture and
1:56:54so So can be defeated by something from
1:56:56the periphery.
1:56:57>> this.
1:56:58>> And so yeah, I thought you might like
1:56:59this. I thought you might [laughter]
1:57:00like this. So what I'd like to know is
1:57:02even with your head under water, but
1:57:03maybe even in the routines of daily
1:57:05life, do you ever find yourself thinking
1:57:07about big picture,
1:57:09>> Mhm. [clears throat]
1:57:10>> soda straw view, tunnel vision versus
1:57:12kind of dialing as a dynamic process
1:57:14because people in martial arts use this
1:57:17as a way to
1:57:18um slow time perception down in order to
1:57:21or speed it up in order to control
1:57:23aspects of the fight? You're somewhat
1:57:25limited under water into what you can
1:57:27see, but
1:57:28like you said that focusing just on the
1:57:29stroke in the moment
1:57:31is sort of the mental equivalent of the
1:57:33soda straw view,
1:57:35but if you don't keep the big picture in
1:57:36mind, that pain in your shoulder and the
1:57:39perception of it can grow to the point
1:57:40where it can become disabling. So
1:57:42there's some utility in being able to
1:57:44dynamically switch back and forth.
1:57:46>> Now that you said that, I've never
1:57:48thought about it like that. I love the
1:57:50Cyclops myth. I love I'm using that.
1:57:51That's amazing. But I I absolutely do
1:57:54that. So on the Yukon swim, for
1:57:56instance, that was the the world's
1:57:57longest non-stop river swim just down
1:57:59the Yukon and there were times where I
1:58:01just wanted to take everything in and I
1:58:03sat there and I'm eating a banana. I'm
1:58:05like, "Wow." And I don't know whether
1:58:06that's switching on the parasympathetic
1:58:08nervous system. You're relaxing,
1:58:09enjoying it. This is all amazing. And
1:58:11then there was other times like for
1:58:13instance, like during the night and the
1:58:15temperature just plummeted,
1:58:17I was like, "That is sympathetic
1:58:19nervous. That is fight or flight and I
1:58:21am not taking in anything." Like these
1:58:24amazing scenes, people would go to me,
1:58:26"Oh my god, Ross, did you see the moose?
1:58:27Did you see the bear?" You know, so I'm
1:58:29just like, "No.
1:58:30I am just staring at the bottom of the
1:58:33river and at best out of my peripheral
1:58:36vision, I'm just making sure that I've
1:58:37got a high elbow catch and I'm ripping
1:58:39through the water. I've just gone full
1:58:41Cyclops mode." Like that is what I'm
1:58:43doing. And I've never thought about it,
1:58:44but that's exactly what I was doing.
1:58:45Yeah. And I don't know I'm trying to
1:58:47think of another example I've done that,
1:58:48but certainly swimming, that is exactly
1:58:50what I do. You know, that there's times
1:58:52when I look head above the water having
1:58:54a banana taking it all in in Iceland
1:58:56looking at the fjords and then there's
1:58:58times where it's just like no no no no.
1:58:59It is just you are dialed in Cyclops
1:59:02mode.
1:59:03>> Yeah, a friend of mine who's from a
1:59:05military group overseas, I won't say
1:59:07which, told me that part of the training
1:59:09that they receive in
1:59:11close quarter combat where they
1:59:14encounter somebody and they realize that
1:59:16it's it's going to be close quarter
1:59:17combat and it's life or death on the
1:59:19line
1:59:20is that the mental [clears throat] set
1:59:22that's required to do that is recruited
1:59:24immediately, right? In the presence of a
1:59:25real threat. But in training it, they
1:59:27have them actually like contract their
1:59:30gaze and he he showed me it was actually
1:59:32really eerie. Like he stared right at me
1:59:34and he brought his eyes into it and you
1:59:35could see his you could feel his entire
1:59:39autonomic tone change. And then he
1:59:41stopped and he said, "I don't like that
1:59:42feeling." I'm like, "Why?" He's like,
1:59:43"Because it's He said, 'I I'm not going
1:59:46to kill you, but it's it's this moment
1:59:48where you you crossed you deliberately
1:59:50crossed over to a point where you're
1:59:51like you're going to you're you're going
1:59:53to try and kill this person." And so it
1:59:54has a you know, it's it's a risky
1:59:56endeavor to go into these trenches,
1:59:57right? But it seems to be a hardwired
2:00:00aspect of animal visual systems, human
2:00:04visual systems. I often think about how
2:00:06media is trying to recruit our absolute
2:00:09focus and get us to forget everything
2:00:10else so that we are like mindlessly
2:00:12trudge forward in anger and and how to
2:00:14overcome that. It's
2:00:16But then again, this is powerful. It's
2:00:17led to self and protection of affiliate
2:00:21self.
2:00:22>> But it is that. It's the same with
2:00:23sharks as well when just about to attack
2:00:24and then they roll back their eyes
2:00:26protecting. But it's the I suppose
2:00:28similar in that their physiology when
2:00:30they're dialed in, you can see certainly
2:00:32with the great whites there was behavior
2:00:34where you were like, "We're okay." And
2:00:36then there was times where the the much
2:00:38more experienced divers were like,
2:00:40"Ross, head on a swivel. I don't like
2:00:41that tiger shark." I'm like, "What do
2:00:43you mean?"
2:00:43>> Every other behavior is excluded in
2:00:45favor of of just predation.
2:00:47And then
2:00:48>> the most the most dramatic and and in my
2:00:50opinion cool example of this is that in
2:00:52a species that
2:00:54you no doubt swam with millions of them
2:00:58in the English Channel, which are the
2:00:59cuttlefish. Cuttlefish are cephalopods
2:01:01like octopuses. I used to have these in
2:01:03my lab and they swim around with their
2:01:05eyes on the sides of their heads in this
2:01:07kind of like benevolent but a little bit
2:01:10paranoid state where they have near 360°
2:01:13vision. They can see very far back
2:01:14because they are a prey animal. They
2:01:16have no skeleton to protect them, right?
2:01:17They have their cuttlebone to allow them
2:01:19to float. But they're basically a a
2:01:20protein snack.
2:01:22But if they see something that they want
2:01:24to eat, their eyes translocate to the
2:01:26front. They completely change in their
2:01:28patterns on of of
2:01:30it's not not even camouflage any longer,
2:01:32the chromophores, and they become depth
2:01:35perception dependent hunters. I used to
2:01:37study this in my lab in San Diego and
2:01:39and it's just a remarkable thing to see
2:01:41this like sweet little hubble pod of an
2:01:43underwater little benevolent monkey turn
2:01:45into a like a vicious vicious killer.
2:01:47And the translocation of the eyes
2:01:49happens first.
2:01:51And so this is it's a real thing.
2:01:53>> Yeah.
2:01:53>> It it recruits all sorts of machinery in
2:01:55the brain and body and it also just
2:01:57shuts down like, "Nope. This is not time
2:01:59to do anything else except
2:02:01>> I love that. Yeah, I what I love about
2:02:03this is that it's again, it's the
2:02:04berserker. It's this idea of like nature
2:02:06leaves clues and you know, success
2:02:08leaves clues. Biomimicry and just going,
2:02:10"Right, but we've lost that." I think,
2:02:12you know, we humans have lost certain
2:02:14things. But this is amazing just to go,
2:02:15"I'm going to switch this on." Like, you
2:02:17know, the cuttlefish, that's what I'm
2:02:18going to do. Yeah, I love that. I'm
2:02:20actually I'm going to next time I swim,
2:02:21I'm going to I'll message you. I'm going
2:02:22to purposely do that as well. I always
2:02:24control all the variables on my swim. So
2:02:26I know exactly, you know, I've got my
2:02:28lane. I know the distance. I know the
2:02:29water temp everything. And I'm just
2:02:31going to start experimenting with this.
2:02:33Maybe as well, I love like for me, and
2:02:35this is a whole other discussion, but
2:02:36even playing with like caffeine on the
2:02:39Yukon swim, we were getting into the
2:02:40grams towards the end, you know, of the
2:02:42swim. And that again, it just
2:02:46enabled me to just be so much happier
2:02:48doing such a mundane task and looking at
2:02:50the bottom of the sea. But if I punch
2:02:52like just dark clouds, I'm struggling,
2:02:55my shoulders are hurting. 400 mg of
2:02:57caffeine, 15 minutes later, life's not
2:02:59so bad. This is I'm just ripping through
2:03:01the water. Do you do you find that that
2:03:03you can almost
2:03:05Yeah, you can biohack. You could Yeah,
2:03:06okay.
2:03:07>> There are stimulants like caffeine that
2:03:10are incredibly powerful in that way. I
2:03:12love caffeine. I have a high caffeine
2:03:14tolerance, so I can do that. You know,
2:03:16things like nicotine which I've
2:03:17experimented with the problem I have is
2:03:19that it really sets up a very quick
2:03:22dependence.
2:03:23>> Mhm.
2:03:23>> Like I start to crave it and it's a
2:03:25quick up and down for me. Some people
2:03:27don't mind that. For me, it's it's not a
2:03:29great tool.
2:03:30>> Faster than caffeine, so short half
2:03:31life.
2:03:32>> faster.
2:03:33>> And and maybe it's the way I'm doing it
2:03:34or the way I metabolize it and so on.
2:03:36Occasionally, I'll take like a a
2:03:37milligram or two in a workout, but then
2:03:39I notice I get very tired post-workout
2:03:41>> Mhm.
2:03:42>> in a way that I don't if I don't take
2:03:43it. So I I prefer to keep nicotine as a
2:03:46oral nicotine, you know, so not smoking
2:03:48or vaping, dipping, or snuffing, but you
2:03:49know, like the the the lozenges or
2:03:51something or as a every once in a while
2:03:54every once in a great while tool as
2:03:56opposed to an everyday tool. Caffeine's
2:03:57an everyday thing unless I'm carrying
2:03:59some sort of like respiratory infection
2:04:02or something which case I cut it out
2:04:03which is probably half of the misery I
2:04:04experience while on that respiratory
2:04:06>> Yeah.
2:04:07>> infection which just makes it so much
2:04:08better when you come back. Caffeine is a
2:04:10beautiful thing. I I [laughter] I I back
2:04:13it and it backs me. So
2:04:16>> I agree. Any anything else? I I think I
2:04:17heard you you talk about alpha GPC as
2:04:19well.
2:04:20>> Yeah, as a as a milder alternative to
2:04:23nicotine. The one advantage of alpha GPC
2:04:25is that is if you're going to work out
2:04:27late in the day
2:04:28>> Yeah.
2:04:28>> and you need [clears throat] to sleep a
2:04:29few hours later, it does have a sort of
2:04:31quote unquote stimulant effect, but it
2:04:33actually can increase the amount of REM
2:04:35sleep you get as opposed to
2:04:37mess with your sleep like a lot of
2:04:39stimulants.
2:04:39>> Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:04:40>> If I do it too early in the day, then I
2:04:42notice I get that late afternoon crash.
2:04:44And so it's kind of quick up, quick
2:04:45down. I mean, I've played around with
2:04:47all the various things. Modafinil is too
2:04:49stimulating for me. It It keeps me up
2:04:51for days. There's some other things that
2:04:53seem to work better. There's this
2:04:55prescription drug Sunosi in small
2:04:56amounts. But again, these are
2:04:58it I find that if I use any of these
2:05:01regularly besides caffeine,
2:05:02>> Mhm.
2:05:03>> it creates more problems than solutions.
2:05:05So I I keep them as when really needed
2:05:08tools.
2:05:09>> Yeah, and and some good studies as well
2:05:11around, you know, creatine. It's It's
2:05:12this I've become fascinated with this
2:05:13idea of almost um
2:05:15discipline and motivation is something
2:05:17you can supplement almost if you know
2:05:18what to do with the right amounts. And I
2:05:21think with creatine, there's some good
2:05:22studies with sleep deprivation at the
2:05:23moment. Do you Do you back those?
2:05:25>> The best evidence says that creatine
2:05:28puts water in your muscles, makes you
2:05:30stronger as a consequence. I've been
2:05:32taking it since I was like 17 with the
2:05:34occasional wash out of a week or so for
2:05:36whatever reason and then and then back
2:05:38on it 10 g a day, you know, for so many
2:05:41years now. But
2:05:43in addition to those strength increasing
2:05:44effects due to water volume in the
2:05:46muscles, as at least my understanding,
2:05:48is that if you're mildly or severely
2:05:51sleep deprived, you can partially
2:05:53partially rescue some cognitive function
2:05:56and some maybe even some physical vigor
2:05:57by taking 10 or even 20 g of creatine
2:06:01the next morning. But of course, you
2:06:03need to sleep at some point.
2:06:04>> Mhm.
2:06:04>> And and it's not a replacement for
2:06:06sleep. But yeah, I think creatine's
2:06:08great. I I don't think there's evidence
2:06:09that it um
2:06:11you know, makes hair fall out or
2:06:12anything like that. Um and it's
2:06:14inexpensive and seems safe, so I don't
2:06:16see any reason not to. You Do you take
2:06:18>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I didn't on
2:06:19the the Yukon swim. And then the study
2:06:21came out with I certainly read it much
2:06:23later. And so that's why I'm even
2:06:25fascinated now with, you know, the next
2:06:27um non-stop swim. I just I think we can
2:06:29go further. You know, we we did 500
2:06:31>> [laughter]
2:06:31>> 510 km and I'm like, "Oh, there's things
2:06:34now that I've learned that um whether
2:06:36it's the tunnel vision as well with 20
2:06:38mg of cat with creatine. I think there's
2:06:40there's a bit of me that is just
2:06:41fascinating. I I like to think of myself
2:06:43as like a human guinea pig. And and now
2:06:45like I said, we didn't do creatine on
2:06:47the Yukon so not to say I raw dogged it,
2:06:49but you know, I certainly there are
2:06:51things that I could do in addition cuz
2:06:53we mainly did it on on caffeine. I think
2:06:56you know, Alpha-GPC, Cognizin as well,
2:06:58acetyl-choline. I think I I I I get on
2:07:00really well with that. I find it's um a
2:07:03nicer focus, not just kind of getting
2:07:05all jittery. Tyrosine, L-tyrosine.
2:07:07>> Yeah. As a precursor to dopamine,
2:07:09huperzine, and the cholinergic pathway.
2:07:12You're clearly illustrating a very
2:07:13important point, which is one that has
2:07:15been hard for me to get out into the
2:07:17world because people tend to just grab
2:07:19onto whatever is going to satisfy their
2:07:20like desire to do or feel something. And
2:07:24here's what I mean. I think it's
2:07:26important and wonderful to find what one
2:07:29can do with just great behaviors.
2:07:32Right? Just great behaviors. Trying to
2:07:34get the best sleep you can, nutrition,
2:07:37training, social all social connection,
2:07:39sunlight, all the things that now are
2:07:40kind of commonplace out there and people
2:07:42know. Then perhaps one experiments with
2:07:45caffeine and no caffeine. I tried
2:07:46caffeine, I'm never going back. Okay?
2:07:49Maybe creatine n- first time in forever,
2:07:52maybe only as a tool to use later when
2:07:55you want to level up. I mean, figuring
2:07:56out what you can do without these sup-
2:07:58these literally supplements, I think can
2:08:01be very useful. And then at some point
2:08:03and and this is also true for PEDs,
2:08:05right? For just being really honest, you
2:08:07know, I've been honest about this for
2:08:09years although some people argue I've
2:08:10only been coming clean about this
2:08:12recently, but since since I started the
2:08:14podcast and I had a podcast with Derek
2:08:17from More Plates More Dates, I've said,
2:08:18"Yeah, until age 45 I didn't touch any
2:08:21any
2:08:23ex- uh exogenous hormones whatsoever."
2:08:25And I got to a certain point and felt
2:08:26great, but then I wanted to experiment,
2:08:28so I started with what is for me a true
2:08:30micro dose. Plus taking HCG to maintain
2:08:33fertility and it's been great. And I
2:08:34haven't had to increase that dose much.
2:08:36I've played around with it a little bit,
2:08:37but I found that lower is better for me.
2:08:39Okay? To each their own. Work with a
2:08:41doctor. But when I hear about people
2:08:43immediately getting on gear at age 20,
2:08:4630, 40 in the absence of a clinical
2:08:49need,
2:08:51I'm like, you'll never really know what
2:08:52you can do without it. You know, setting
2:08:54aside drug-tested sport where there are
2:08:56clear rules and regulations people
2:08:57should abide by. Like, I just feel like
2:09:00to really have confidence in one's
2:09:02ability to train, to do things, you need
2:09:05to figure out what you what you can do
2:09:07with just behaviors.
2:09:09You're pretty heavily muscled, so people
2:09:12are going to default to that. They're
2:09:13going to assume that it came about
2:09:15through
2:09:16gear. And that's just as it's an
2:09:18unfortunate thing that people do that.
2:09:19So, you want to talk about that for a
2:09:20moment? What's your response to that?
2:09:22>> Yeah, yeah. It's actually interesting.
2:09:24We can go through my blood work as well.
2:09:25I'd actually, whether we do it on air or
2:09:27off, it would be amazing to get your
2:09:28opinion on it. Um but I think for me,
2:09:30I'm just well aware that I'm a really
2:09:32strange swimmer. So, I started swimming
2:09:35really early on.
2:09:36I think at the age of like 13, 14 at the
2:09:38English Institute of Sport, they look at
2:09:40your parents and they just sort of go,
2:09:42You're not going to grow anymore.
2:09:43>> They look at your parents?
2:09:44>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
2:09:45>> believe in genetics?
2:09:47>> For sure, yeah. My my parents weren't
2:09:48very tall.
2:09:50And I'm 41 now, I'm still waiting for my
2:09:51growth spurt.
2:09:53And so, they were like, "Look, Ross,
2:09:54it's it's not going to happen for you as
2:09:55a competitive swimmer, competitive pool
2:09:57swimmer." I was like, "Okay, fine." So,
2:09:59I ended up playing water polo. I played
2:10:00for England schoolboys. I played
2:10:02internationally. Loved that as well
2:10:04because it allowed me to use swimming,
2:10:06but also not to say I like to fight, but
2:10:09it was just it was nice that in swimming
2:10:11if I lost, I'd just be like, "Oh, well
2:10:13done, you beat me." Whereas in water
2:10:14polo, you can do something about it. You
2:10:16can get into a fight. You can kind of
2:10:17grab
2:10:17>> You scratch each other with your
2:10:18toenails. I heard they do that.
2:10:20>> Yeah, I mean,
2:10:21famously, it was Hungary versus the
2:10:24Soviet Union. I want to say Melbourne
2:10:27Olympics and famous
2:10:31event. It was called Blood in the Water
2:10:32and they were basically at war.
2:10:36Drew each other in the semi-final and
2:10:38honestly, Andrew, like some of the
2:10:39pictures just people coming out covered
2:10:41in blood. The water turned red cuz they
2:10:43just went in there. Hungary won, I
2:10:45believe it was 4-0,
2:10:47but just brutal.
2:10:49>> Now these days they'd probably stop it
2:10:51because it would
2:10:52offend people's sensibilities.
2:10:54>> Yeah, it's I mean, it's still bad. It's
2:10:56yeah, well, but but I loved it again,
2:10:58that stress inoculation training. But
2:11:00but to go back to the examples, and then
2:11:01I played water polo and I remember I was
2:11:03playing for
2:11:04England schoolboys under 18 at the age
2:11:06of 13. So I was the wrong side of
2:11:08puberty. So I just got beaten up. Coach
2:11:10was just like, "Look, you need to get
2:11:11bigger, Ross. You need to get stronger."
2:11:13So I've been weight training since I was
2:11:1513 and I think
2:11:17that coupled with a period as well where
2:11:19I was fortunate
2:11:20so many of my friends compete in World's
2:11:21Strongest Man. So I went through a
2:11:23period as well of just getting crazy
2:11:25strong, looking into that. I was lifting
2:11:27with the Stoltman brothers, world's
2:11:28strongest brothers, Tom Stoltman, three
2:11:30times world's strongest man, Eddie Hall,
2:11:32first guy to deadlift, you know, half a
2:11:33ton, world's strongest man. So it was
2:11:35really interesting how I then went
2:11:37through years and years of strength
2:11:39training, hypertrophy,
2:11:41but then came back into swimming so much
2:11:43later. So I think that is partly why
2:11:45I've got the strange physique that I do
2:11:48and it confuses lots of people cuz they
2:11:49they're like, "You're not built like I'm
2:11:50swimming." I'm like, "No, no, no, I'm
2:11:51not, but I'm 41 and if you look back
2:11:54over my sporting career, my strange
2:11:56resume, there's a reason for my strange
2:11:58physique."
2:11:59>> And so you do a fair amount of strength
2:12:01training. Does that mean pure strength,
2:12:02like training in the, you know, one to
2:12:04four rep range, not trying to grow your
2:12:06muscles, not going to failure, but going
2:12:08close to it, lot of volume? This is how
2:12:10I understand sort of optimal strength
2:12:12training protocols, frequent sessions,
2:12:14and so on.
2:12:15>> Exactly that as well. And and a huge fan
2:12:17of Cam McEvoy. So he's the current 50
2:12:19meter freestyle world record holder. It
2:12:21was London 2012. He was the the golden
2:12:24boy of Australian swimming. Didn't quite
2:12:26perform how he wanted to. So fell out of
2:12:28love with swimming.
2:12:29Then COVID happened and he was just
2:12:32like, ah, you know, I I don't think I'm
2:12:33going to go back to swimming, but I like
2:12:35calisthenics. I like rock climbing. He
2:12:37started doing that, got really strong as
2:12:39well. And now we know there's a direct
2:12:40correlation between your one rep max on
2:12:42pull-ups and your swim sprint speed as
2:12:44well. So Cam now, he was drilling
2:12:47technique and doing honestly, Andrew,
2:12:49like speed reps with 80 kilos between
2:12:51his legs. And he just got crazy strong,
2:12:54even holding like a front lever as well
2:12:56cuz he was like, that's kind of the same
2:12:57as swimming. So he taught himself this.
2:13:00Basically coming out of COVID, somebody
2:13:02then joked and went, ah, there's a local
2:13:03swim gala. You should You should dust
2:13:05off the goggles and the speedo just get
2:13:07in and see how good you are. And so for
2:13:09a joke, he was like, ah, look, I'm going
2:13:11to turn up and see if I still got it. He
2:13:13got in and ripped a personal best.
2:13:15Everyone was like, oh. So he basically
2:13:18completely changed his training where
2:13:20there was a huge emphasis on strength,
2:13:22speed and power. Now he's a 50 meter
2:13:24specialist, recently got into the 100 as
2:13:26well. But I think the one thing that I
2:13:28have taken from that is that idea of
2:13:29your strength reserve.
2:13:31So now I'm drilling my one rep max on
2:13:34pull-ups knowing that as that improves,
2:13:37then all of a sudden when I'm swimming,
2:13:39swimming almost being a unilateral form
2:13:41of a lat pull-down with each arm, every
2:13:44single stroke and the force that I
2:13:45generate is a smaller percentage of what
2:13:48I'm capable of because I have a larger
2:13:50one rep max on pull-ups as well.
2:13:51>> Got it.
2:13:52>> One of the best examples of strength
2:13:53reserve, I was talking about this
2:13:55earlier, but but but Eddie Hall. So
2:13:57Eddie went into a CrossFit competition.
2:13:59I forget the name of the award, but
2:14:00there was a record and it was basically
2:14:0260 kilos on the bar. When you look at
2:14:04CrossFit as a poetic and technique sort
2:14:06of clean to the chest and then it was a
2:14:08push press.
2:14:10But because Eddie is Eddie Hall, and
2:14:12because he's so strong, it was more akin
2:14:16to just a front delt raise.
2:14:17>> [laughter]
2:14:18>> Maybe an upright row, but he just like
2:14:20picked up the bar and just went one,
2:14:21two, and just did it like that. And
2:14:23again, it was because he just had a
2:14:24crazy strength reserve. 60 kilos for him
2:14:28was so light because he was so strong.
2:14:31So, that's the reason I still strength
2:14:32train now. It's this idea very much
2:14:33inspired by, you know, Eddie Hall, Cam
2:14:35McEvoy, the strength reserve. When I'm
2:14:37training mechanotransduction, my
2:14:39connective tissue is really, really
2:14:40strong, but also because my one-rep max
2:14:42on pull-ups is so strong, every single
2:14:44stroke is a smaller percentage of what
2:14:47I'm capable of.
2:14:47>> Interesting.
2:14:49Um I love to run, and I love to lift,
2:14:51and I find that if I'm lifting in sort
2:14:53of middle rep range, so 6 to 12
2:14:57repetitions, uh close to or to failure,
2:15:01I find that my runs suffer.
2:15:03>> Mhm.
2:15:04>> Um the recovery suffers, but I'm playing
2:15:07with the idea that pure strength
2:15:09training and endurance training might
2:15:11actually fit pretty well together. Is
2:15:13that your experience, or am I going to
2:15:15am I setting myself up for additional
2:15:17frustration?
2:15:18>> I personally think yes, like absolutely.
2:15:20I I I I think, even when you're looking
2:15:23now, um uh
2:15:24like Michael Johnson, can you remember
2:15:26he had that amazing running technique?
2:15:28But we now understand that even though
2:15:30that was potentially shortening his
2:15:31stride, it was increasing the amount of
2:15:33force he could generate through each
2:15:35foot. And we now know that's a greater
2:15:36predictor of of speed as well. So, I
2:15:38think that's so interesting that
2:15:40drilling down into your strength, I
2:15:42think, one will help you generate more
2:15:44force per stride, but but also as well,
2:15:46even hold efficient biomechanics.
2:15:48>> Mhm.
2:15:48>> I think that's overlooked as well. Yeah,
2:15:50so I personally think they complement
2:15:52each other really well.
2:15:53>> How many days a week are you doing are
2:15:56you lifting?
2:15:56>> At the moment, because I'm sort of
2:15:58off-season, uh pretty much like 5 days a
2:16:01week.
2:16:01>> Okay. And um are you doing the same
2:16:04lifts on multiple days? So,
2:16:06or same muscle groups on multiple days.
2:16:08>> Quite similar. Yeah, yeah. So, I'm
2:16:09almost trying to do like the Bulgarian
2:16:11training method but for swimming with
2:16:15with one rep max on pull-ups, if that
2:16:17makes sense. So, I'm very aware that the
2:16:18Bulgarian training method, you know,
2:16:20they broke more champions than they
2:16:22made. You know, they were like, "You are
2:16:23going to lift heavy 365 days of the
2:16:25year, 7 hours a day." You know, and they
2:16:27were just breaking kids and go, "All
2:16:29right, that one's broken. That one's
2:16:30broken." But, the one who could tolerate
2:16:33it
2:16:34was a world champion, was a world record
2:16:35holder. I, through so many years now,
2:16:39I I am quite lucky that I do have quite
2:16:41a high work capacity. So, work capacity,
2:16:42your your body's ability to perform and
2:16:44positively tolerate training at a given
2:16:45intensity or duration. And so, I just
2:16:48respond really well to just being
2:16:50flogged with volume. And so, I'm almost
2:16:52doing these still long aerobic sessions
2:16:55when swimming, but also almost spamming
2:16:57it with a Bulgarian-inspired
2:16:59training method of of strength training,
2:17:01as well.
2:17:01>> How long are those workouts in the gym
2:17:04from when you walk in until you walk
2:17:05out?
2:17:06>> The strength session itself can be 45
2:17:08minutes long because it is just pure
2:17:10strength, your body's ability to
2:17:11generate force. And even when we're
2:17:12doing plyometrics, you don't want to be
2:17:14doing a lot. A great friend of mine,
2:17:15Linford Christie, I still believe he's
2:17:17the oldest 100-meter champion.
2:17:20It took me a while when learning about
2:17:22speed and plyometrics because I always
2:17:24thought more was better, as is my
2:17:26nature. And Linford would be like, "Go
2:17:29home, Ross. You're actually drilling bad
2:17:31technique now. You're done." And so,
2:17:33it's very much inspired by that on my
2:17:35strength sessions, I'm making sure that
2:17:37everything is dialed in and they're
2:17:38perfect they're 45 minutes long. Any
2:17:39longer and you're just drilling bad
2:17:41technique, you're not actually training
2:17:43strength anymore, certainly not speed
2:17:45and power, as well. And I think one of
2:17:47the biggest things that
2:17:48I found recently, as well, is
2:17:50a supra-isometric maximal holds, as
2:17:53well. So, before my heavier lifts, let's
2:17:56take pull-ups, for example. I'm doing
2:17:58about 60 kilos at the moment, clean.
2:18:01And so, what I'll sometimes put anywhere
2:18:03between 80, 90, 100 kilos on the weight,
2:18:07hold in an active hang,
2:18:10only 3 seconds. So, you're not trying to
2:18:11fatigue yourself. You're trying to
2:18:13switch on the central nervous system,
2:18:14neural [clears throat] priming.
2:18:16Then jump down, take off the weight, put
2:18:1860 kilos on, wait 2 minutes, so you're
2:18:20not fatigued, you're just switched on.
2:18:22And what I found is then when I rip, I
2:18:24will just pull through 60 kilos. And
2:18:26that's been one of the biggest things
2:18:27that I've
2:18:29found has has has really helped. And I'm
2:18:31lucky cuz I can train at home, so I'm
2:18:33able to do that. I think doing it at a
2:18:35commercial gym, they're like, "Why has
2:18:36he got all that weight and he's dangling
2:18:38and then waiting 2 minutes and then
2:18:39doing" But I'm very fortunate that I can
2:18:41do that cuz I can train at home.
2:18:42>> Yeah, I feel like the the Russians and
2:18:44the Eastern Europeans uh certainly were
2:18:46aware of the importance of the nervous
2:18:48system for training, but I think it's
2:18:49only in recent years that people like
2:18:51Pavel Tsatsouline and others have really
2:18:53brought to the United States and to
2:18:55Western Europe and Australia, et cetera,
2:18:57that this idea that the neural piece is
2:19:00so important. We think strength, we
2:19:03think muscles, we might think connective
2:19:05tissue, but the neural piece uh being so
2:19:07vital. Do you Do you mind if I ask um if
2:19:10your split is uh such that on those five
2:19:1445-minute um workouts per week right
2:19:16now, anyway, are you doing pull-up work
2:19:18every day of those five? Are you
2:19:20pressing every day? Are you squatting
2:19:22every day?
2:19:23>> So bad, I do skip leg day. I just I just
2:19:25don't need them for my swimming style
2:19:26I'm doing. Uh so often I say, you know,
2:19:28make your body an instrument, not an
2:19:29ornament. And you know, sometimes people
2:19:31are like, "Oh, he skips leg day." I'm
2:19:32like, "Yeah, I do. I I don't need them."
2:19:34>> have
2:19:35you have tree trunk legs, so you don't
2:19:37You and Dorian, I mean, he obviously
2:19:38trained them for years. You've trained
2:19:39them before.
2:19:41Yeah, so yeah, it's really frustrating
2:19:42to those of us that actually have to
2:19:44train our legs, but um
2:19:46any direct grip work or not so much?
2:19:48>> Yeah, yeah. And I think also what's
2:19:49really important for me is when people
2:19:51understand they go, "Oh, so you train
2:19:53pull-ups 5 days a week." And it's like,
2:19:56"Yeah, but but we're changing the
2:19:57stimulus as well." So, some days it'll
2:20:00be really heavy. The goal is to do a a
2:20:02heavy one rep max or, you know, two to
2:20:04three rep max on pull-ups. That is the
2:20:06goal. And then equally, the next day
2:20:08we'll do medicine ball slams, neural
2:20:10priming, and then speed pull-ups for
2:20:12instance. And then equally, we might do
2:20:14slightly bigger volume. So, it's never
2:20:16just drilling the same thing. You're
2:20:18just playing around with the different
2:20:20stimulus. The movements, the
2:20:21biomechanics are the same, but you're
2:20:23acquiring a different training stimulus.
2:20:26>> I have a question about your significant
2:20:27other.
2:20:28It's interesting and wonderful that she
2:20:30supports you in these arguably somewhat
2:20:33or
2:20:34very much dangerous endeavors, and you
2:20:37guys have a child together. So, she's
2:20:39vested clearly. But, a friend of mine
2:20:42who
2:20:43had a very high-risk, high-consequence
2:20:45uh
2:20:46a job for many years said that um his
2:20:49wife, who's been his wife throughout all
2:20:51of that and now into the current phase
2:20:53of his life, which is a lot less
2:20:54high-risk, high-consequence, um said
2:20:56that if she didn't have to worry about
2:20:57him, she'd have to worry about a lot of
2:20:59other things. So, I you can't answer for
2:21:01her, uh but I wonder whether when you
2:21:04don't have one of these dangerous
2:21:06pursuits, uh does her anxiety tend to
2:21:09subside or does it tend to then like
2:21:11wick out to other things? Because
2:21:13the brain I say this for
2:21:15ask for multiple reasons because the
2:21:16brain likes to if we need to worry, we
2:21:20need to worry about something. And if we
2:21:22need to worry about something, it's we
2:21:23can't worry about a lot of other things.
2:21:25So, I could imagine it would there's a
2:21:26certain advantageous piece to this.
2:21:28>> I think there is. And cuz I I love the
2:21:30work of Jordan Peterson when he's just
2:21:31like, "Life is suffering. Life is going
2:21:33to be horrible, so you might as well
2:21:34pick your suffering." You know, with
2:21:35Sisyphus, pick up the boulder. Do you
2:21:37know what I mean? That that that I think
2:21:40is is absolutely true. And I don't I
2:21:43don't want to say that I'm, you know,
2:21:44I'm a pleasant headache for her.
2:21:46>> [laughter]
2:21:46>> But, I do
2:21:48think I certainly for me as well on the
2:21:50swims,
2:21:52people are like, "Oh, you know, it
2:21:53sounds brutal, you know, 157 days at sea
2:21:56swimming around Great Britain." But I'm
2:21:58like, "But you got to understand, I
2:21:59think I'm living like humans were always
2:22:02meant to live." Like in that I'm not
2:22:03spiking cortisol throughout the entire
2:22:05day. I'm not thinking, "Oh, have I paid
2:22:07the mortgage? Have I taxed the car? I've
2:22:09got an email. Oh god, you know." None of
2:22:11that. I wake up and life is so simple. I
2:22:14just wake up and I've got two questions.
2:22:16What is the tide doing and what's for
2:22:18breakfast? That is it. And then I get in
2:22:20and every 20 minutes throws a banana
2:22:22over the boat and I eat it. Life is so
2:22:24good. So I do think sometimes for me,
2:22:27yeah, it's it's really nice. And may
2:22:29maybe maybe for Hester as well in that
2:22:31she wakes up and just go, "Okay, he's
2:22:32still afloat." She looks on the marine
2:22:34tracker like when I was going around
2:22:35Iceland cuz she couldn't come out to the
2:22:36boat. Obviously, she was heavily
2:22:37pregnant. So she would just see the on
2:22:39the marine tracker that the boat was
2:22:40moving. So she'd wake up in the middle
2:22:42of the night and go, "Okay, he's
2:22:43moving." And then she'd go back to
2:22:44sleep. God bless her. God bless her
2:22:47indeed.
2:22:48>> [laughter]
2:22:49>> So, we've got
2:22:51different spokes on the on the wheel of
2:22:55motivation, tenacity, and throughput. Uh
2:22:58we've got because I said I would, simply
2:23:01because I said I would. We've got for
2:23:03others, in particular for others that
2:23:06you affiliate with strongly first and
2:23:08once that box is checked, you can think
2:23:10about the other others.
2:23:12We've got in out of love, the pure joy
2:23:15of doing the thing.
2:23:16>> Yep.
2:23:17>> And maybe also the love of your your
2:23:19people or life, you know, we could
2:23:21extend that in any way. F you, like
2:23:24anger.
2:23:24>> Yep. Yep.
2:23:25>> Because you or they said I couldn't. We
2:23:29covered that one. You sometimes hear
2:23:31that people can be very motivated to do
2:23:33something
2:23:34because others can't. Mhm. Right? Yeah,
2:23:38uh you often see this on social media in
2:23:40fact and it's a it's a it's a very um
2:23:43moving thing to see somebody who's, you
2:23:45know, climbing a mountain because their
2:23:47child is sick and they just, you know,
2:23:50running the doing the triathlon because
2:23:53somebody is impaired in some way and
2:23:55they want to there's something there. Is
2:23:58that one that you've touched into?
2:23:59>> I would say that's probably
2:24:01less so out of the space, but it is
2:24:03there. Yeah, it's it is definitely
2:24:05there. Um that you can do it because
2:24:09others can't. That's that's the
2:24:10sentiment. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I
2:24:13[clears throat] think um
2:24:15on on that note, I remember and then
2:24:17maybe this is tied to us as well. And I
2:24:20I can talk about it now without
2:24:22getting upset, I think touch wood, but
2:24:23my dad, like I said um 4 5 years ago now
2:24:26when we lost him, it was uh stage 4
2:24:29cancer. So it was um uh melanoma skin
2:24:31melanoma and I remember he had been
2:24:36diagnosed and he was an amazing tennis
2:24:38coach. He he basically built tennis
2:24:39centers up and down the UK.
2:24:41Uh he taught uh wheelchair tennis, uh
2:24:44visually impaired tennis. Sometimes he
2:24:45would take to the tennis court and
2:24:46blindfold himself he could play visually
2:24:48impaired tennis. And when he was
2:24:51diagnosed with with cancer that it had
2:24:54spread so much in his legs um that it
2:24:57was basically stopping him from running
2:24:59and and and coaching.
2:25:01And I got a phone call and I was like,
2:25:03you know, dad's dad's fallen over uh
2:25:05he's taken a really bad fall, come to
2:25:06the hospital. So I ran to the hospital
2:25:08and he was there, blood all down his
2:25:10face. I am you know, choking back the
2:25:12tears, trying to be strong and I was
2:25:14like, "Dad, what have you done?" And he
2:25:16goes, "No, no, no, don't be upset. I won
2:25:17the point."
2:25:18>> [laughter]
2:25:19>> And I was like, "Right, okay. Amazing."
2:25:21An hour later they then said, "Look, I'm
2:25:23so sorry, Richard. The the the the
2:25:25tumors have spread. Um you Now you can't
2:25:28coach. We don't want you out on the
2:25:30tennis court on your feet for 12 hours a
2:25:32day coaching. You can't." And he
2:25:35literally like did not skip a beat. He
2:25:38just looked the doctor straight in the
2:25:39eye and he just went, "That's not a
2:25:40problem at all. We've got a great
2:25:42wheelchair tennis coaching system down
2:25:44there. I'll just get one of the
2:25:45wheelchairs.
2:25:46>> Wow.
2:25:46>> And the very next day just bandaged up
2:25:48his tumors and then just took to the
2:25:49court and just played and continued to
2:25:51coach in a wheelchair.
2:25:52>> My goodness.
2:25:53>> And I so I think to answer your
2:25:54question, that having stories and
2:25:56examples and mentors and heroes like
2:25:58that, it was swimming going, there will
2:26:01be a time maybe where I'm not able to do
2:26:03this, but like my dad, you will find a
2:26:05way to keep going. So I don't I don't
2:26:06know if that's one of the spokes, but
2:26:08that that was always a really really
2:26:10powerful story that I always take with
2:26:12me. You know, that that no matter how
2:26:14bad things are, like my dad just took to
2:26:16the tennis court just in a wheelchair,
2:26:18just didn't skip a beat.
2:26:20>> Yeah, so based on what you said and it's
2:26:22a beautiful example, for those who can't
2:26:24it's really about gratitude. It's the
2:26:27beneath that parenthetically, it's
2:26:31I can and therefore I will. It's like a
2:26:33gratitude for what we can do.
2:26:35Because if
2:26:37we're dead, can't do these things.
2:26:40>> percent. Yeah, I love what you said
2:26:41about gratitude as well. So when we did
2:26:43the Yukon swim for instance, the river
2:26:45team that we had in the Yukon, basically
2:26:46there's a there's a famous kayak race
2:26:48that goes down the Yukon,
2:26:50River Quest it's called. And I, upon
2:26:52hearing about this, that's when I
2:26:53reached out to the team who do the
2:26:55safety for this particular thing. I
2:26:56said, "Look, if you can kayak it, you
2:26:58can swim it, right?" And this team, just
2:27:00amazing Canadians, were just like,
2:27:02"Yeah, in theory if you can escape the
2:27:04rapids, the bears, the wolves, yeah, in
2:27:06theory." So anyway, I was like, "Right,
2:27:08okay, let's put together a team." They
2:27:10put together a team, but they were
2:27:11missing a few boats. And there was one
2:27:13guy, Larry, who was amazing. He
2:27:15basically turned around and said, "Look,
2:27:17I'll come, but but you can have my boat,
2:27:20but I'm going to be on it." And they
2:27:21said, "Look, you are terminally ill.
2:27:23This is a terrible idea. The doctors
2:27:25have said, you know, you've literally
2:27:27got weeks to live."
2:27:28And he said, "No, no, no, no, no, I've
2:27:30I've lived on this river for years." He
2:27:32said, "You can have my boat, but I'm
2:27:34going to be on it. I'm going going
2:27:35steering the boat." So everyone
2:27:36reluctantly was like, "Fine." Again,
2:27:38Larry had weeks to live.
2:27:40He then jumped on the boat. I was told
2:27:42this story. He's on the boat with his
2:27:43son, and for the next 70 hours we're
2:27:45swimming down the Yukon. I am swimming,
2:27:47hurting, shoulders are hurting,
2:27:49hypothermia seeping into my bones,
2:27:51everything. And every time I look, I
2:27:53just see the silhouette of Larry, and he
2:27:55is just cheering me on, just going,
2:27:56"Let's go!" And I look over, I was just
2:27:58like, "Ah! Like, how can I stop when
2:28:01I've got Larry out here?" We finished
2:28:03the swim, broke the record, we
2:28:04celebrated. And then it was it was a few
2:28:07we we put the documentary out on
2:28:08YouTube. Um his son messaged me and was
2:28:11just like, "Just so you're aware,
2:28:12Larry's in in in hospital. Uh every
2:28:14single doctor and nurse has been made to
2:28:17watch the documentary on YouTube. He's
2:28:19so proud." And I was just like, "Aw." I
2:28:21had tears in my eyes, like a lump in my
2:28:24throat, goose bumps. I was just like
2:28:25that. And they just said, "You you don't
2:28:27know. You gave him, you know, the last
2:28:29great adventure of his career." Um and
2:28:32he passed away shortly afterwards. And
2:28:33again, I suppose it's that particular
2:28:36sport that when I was swimming, I was
2:28:38like, "Yeah, I'm I'm doing How can I How
2:28:40can I stop when Larry's over there?" And
2:28:42like, he was he was ah just an absolute
2:28:44legend, yeah.
2:28:46>> He's not genetically related to you, but
2:28:48he becomes of you, like you guys are a
2:28:50team.
2:28:51>> Oh, yeah. And this is like the
2:28:53>> Anyway, I don't have a like a really
2:28:55well-developed framework for this, but
2:28:56I'm going to try and
2:28:58take some notes and diagram this, and we
2:29:00can kick it back and forth after this,
2:29:01and come up with something, [laughter]
2:29:02cuz I feel like you're this uh the
2:29:05shining example of all these different
2:29:08moments of of accessing the different
2:29:10spokes on this wheel of resilience. Um
2:29:13I put a big question mark on one spoke.
2:29:16Like, I kind of wonder, just for
2:29:18entertainment purposes, is there ever a
2:29:20moment you're like, "I actually don't
2:29:21know why I'm doing this right now, but
2:29:23I'm just going to keep going." Like Like
2:29:24I don't have an answer. Everything is
2:29:26great, or everything's Like just the
2:29:28absurdity of it all. Like if you really
2:29:30step back, like what you do, Ross, with
2:29:32all due respect, is pretty absurd. It's
2:29:35absurd. You don't have to do it. You can
2:29:36do any number of different things, but
2:29:37you feel compelled to do it. And it's a
2:29:39beautiful, inspiring, and it and I'll
2:29:42even say an important thing that you do
2:29:46what what you in particular do. It
2:29:48really is. But, do you ever step back
2:29:49and just go like, I have no idea, but
2:29:52I'm just going to keep pedaling here.
2:29:54>> Do you know what? I love what you said
2:29:56there because
2:29:57kind of I don't know if this answers
2:30:00your question, but you're aware of the
2:30:01myth of Sisyphus? Yeah, so so for those
2:30:04listening you don't so so so Sisyphus
2:30:06was one of the the cleverest humans who
2:30:07ever existed in ancient mythology. I was
2:30:09able to outsmart the gods, and he even
2:30:10chained up death at one point, which
2:30:12made the gods really angry because
2:30:13basically people were fighting wars, and
2:30:16there were no no one was dying. So,
2:30:17there was no souls going to the
2:30:18underworld, so Hades was really pissed
2:30:20off. Anyway, eventually he dies, and the
2:30:22gods are just livid. They're like, look,
2:30:24we're going to we're going to punish
2:30:25you. And what we're going to do is we're
2:30:26going to make you roll a boulder up a
2:30:27hill for eternity. And just as it gets
2:30:28to the top of the hill, it's going to
2:30:30roll back down. And you're just going to
2:30:31do that for eternity, just this like
2:30:33absurd, like completely thankless task.
2:30:37But, then it was Albert Camus, the
2:30:38philosopher, who said he was able to
2:30:39outsmart the gods one more time. And
2:30:41that's if you imagine that Sisyphus was
2:30:44smiling. And this is the part I love. He
2:30:46said, because the struggle alone is
2:30:48enough to fill a man's heart. And I
2:30:50think for me, they've even coined the
2:30:52phrase that that Sisyphus was the absurd
2:30:54hero. And I I I think for me, swimming
2:30:57sometimes I'm like, this is Sisyphus.
2:30:59This is my boulder. You know, it's not
2:31:01going anywhere. But,
2:31:03the struggle alone is enough to fill a
2:31:05man's heart. Does that answer the
2:31:06question? Does one of the spokes?
2:31:07>> Perfectly. [laughter]
2:31:10>> Right. Sisyphus.
2:31:12Swimming Sisyphus.
2:31:14>> [laughter]
2:31:14>> So, you identify with Sisyphus. It makes
2:31:16perfect sense. Um, what about your
2:31:18animal spirit? Uh, not to get woo here,
2:31:20but uh, you smile a lot. I don't know if
2:31:23that was always the case. I mean, you've
2:31:25you've had some dark moments in your
2:31:26life.
2:31:27>> Oh, for sure. Yeah, I just I think I
2:31:30love what you said earlier. Although
2:31:32it's made me rethink it with the studies
2:31:33that you mentioned, but I just think,
2:31:35you know, the science of a smile. There
2:31:36was one particular study where they had
2:31:38cyclists cycle to complete exhaustion
2:31:40and then they showed them these cues and
2:31:41they were almost subliminal as well cuz
2:31:43they were so quick at people smiling or
2:31:45frowning.
2:31:46>> familiar with that study.
2:31:47>> And they they basically found that those
2:31:49who were shown people of pictures of
2:31:51people smiling were able to go to
2:31:52exhaustion so much longer. So I think
2:31:54upon hearing that, you know, I was like
2:31:56I try to swim with the smile as much as
2:31:58possible cuz otherwise I just find it's
2:32:01just like I said, I think Chris
2:32:03Williamson, you know, a mutual friend of
2:32:04ours like he he said it best because I'm
2:32:06a huge fan of Goggins. And I've heard
2:32:08his stuff and I've tried it. So when I'm
2:32:11swimming I'm like,
2:32:12you're a little [ __ ] Ross. You know,
2:32:14man what you doing? But after like 114
2:32:18days I'm like,
2:32:19>> [laughter]
2:32:20>> don't be so mean.
2:32:22So I've tried and Chris Williamson said
2:32:23it almost like, you know, what you
2:32:25putting in your car? Both work. Is it
2:32:27diesel or is it petrol? Which one? And
2:32:29so I've tried that and I still do use
2:32:32some of that Goggins esque motivation,
2:32:35but but sometimes I just need something
2:32:37that's a bit gentler.
2:32:38Yeah.
2:32:39>> I've known David a while. I don't know
2:32:41him very well, but I've known him since
2:32:43before his book, the first book. And so
2:32:45I can tell you he's always been exactly
2:32:47the same outwardly, very kind,
2:32:50unbelievably driven. You know, he sat in
2:32:52that very chair and
2:32:54you know, he
2:32:55shared a bit of what his inner process
2:32:56is, but you know, it's a it's a bit of a
2:32:58mystery what drives him internally or
2:33:01anyone for that matter in the moment to
2:33:03moment, right? But clearly the uh
2:33:06he talked about the [ __ ] me, but also
2:33:07the [ __ ] you being a powerful tool.
2:33:10Dorian Yates talked about [ __ ] you
2:33:12motivation being powerful and he's in a
2:33:14very different place in his life now,
2:33:16but
2:33:17>> That's a great example. When they talked
2:33:19about he was saying and and I know he's
2:33:20a great friend of yours. So please
2:33:21correct me if I'm wrong here, but it was
2:33:23certainly during the period was it like
2:33:24the 1980s, 1990s when it was Gold's
2:33:27Beach, string vests, sunglasses on and
2:33:30these bodybuilders, whereas he was in
2:33:31Birmingham trudging through the snow.
2:33:34And he was just like, "Oh, if I've got
2:33:35to do this, I'm going to make sure that
2:33:37I win." Is Is that the case? There was
2:33:38that
2:33:39>> Yeah, I don't want to speak for him, but
2:33:40there was that, but but I think he
2:33:42learned to tap into it much earlier. I
2:33:44mean, he he had a a less than perfect
2:33:47childhood, so to speak. I mean, his dad
2:33:48died early. He had uh ended up in a
2:33:51youth detention center, wrong place,
2:33:52wrong time kind of thing, and he was
2:33:54like, "I don't want to be like the rest
2:33:56of the people in here who seem to accept
2:33:58this fate." Um and he had a big, you
2:34:00know, strong like [ __ ] you energy to
2:34:03people who told him that he wasn't going
2:34:04to be anything, just the whole notion of
2:34:06these oppressive forces, real or
2:34:08imagined. It sounds like they were very
2:34:10real in many cases. Um and he just
2:34:12decided like
2:34:14that's the fuel. And he, you know,
2:34:16became a six-time Mr. Olympia and and
2:34:18and equally importantly a happy person
2:34:20post-Olympia, mobile and healthy and all
2:34:24the rest. He's a wonderful person and
2:34:26and he's almost two different people.
2:34:28When you look at Is it Blood and Guts is
2:34:30is D.D.R. The amount of times I used to
2:34:32watch that before I went training. Oh my
2:34:34god, his training partners, the
2:34:36intensity. It was, you know, it was
2:34:38animalistic. It was incredible. You
2:34:40know, but but now he is
2:34:42almost like a shaman. He's just like
2:34:44spiritually like It's just amazing
2:34:45seeing the two different people.
2:34:47>> He's definitely got it in balance, I
2:34:48will tell you. He's still got some [ __ ]
2:34:49you energy.
2:34:50>> Oh, yeah, yeah.
2:34:51>> You just need to hit [laughter] the
2:34:52right topic.
2:34:54He's still got it. He's still got it.
2:34:56Believe me, it's still very alive in
2:34:57him.
2:34:58>> But sometimes it's like what makes a
2:35:00great champion can make a bad human. You
2:35:03know, and I say that sometimes with some
2:35:04of my swims. I'm like, "Look, I I know
2:35:06it's bad for my health, but it's good
2:35:08for my soul." And I think sometimes as
2:35:10well but looking at some champions, I
2:35:12think it was Brendan Schaub when he was
2:35:13talking about Jon Jones and he was just
2:35:15like, "Jon Jones is incredible. Like,
2:35:17he's unbelievable, but there's not
2:35:19enough money to fill that void, you
2:35:22know, in in his life." But but that also
2:35:24driven to to greatness. It's so strange,
2:35:26isn't it?
2:35:27>> Yeah, I mean, I I don't know Jon and I'd
2:35:29not familiar I'm not that um versed in
2:35:31in MMA, but certainly Dorian has
2:35:34the past victories plus life in balance.
2:35:37It really is a it's a felt thing. It's
2:35:39not just a spoken thing. It's really a
2:35:41felt thing. And I spent a decent amount
2:35:42of time with him and I in the context of
2:35:44his everyday life. And he's he's
2:35:46definitely winning the whole picture as
2:35:49they say. And he works at it. He works
2:35:50at it. It's not like a default, right?
2:35:52He works at it. Resisting negative
2:35:53forces and still keeping some [ __ ] you
2:35:55energy in there. So, it's good.
2:35:57>> Just in the back of
2:35:58>> Yeah, you know, I grew up in the South
2:35:59Bay where it's like every you know, it
2:36:01was like Stanford's right there and
2:36:02Silicon Valley's right there. And you
2:36:04see this in the in the realm of um you
2:36:07know, science, entrepreneurship,
2:36:08technology. You see it in every domain.
2:36:10You see it in every domain. You see it
2:36:12in dance. We had Twyla Tharp on here,
2:36:15the great choreographer. You see it that
2:36:17you She'll tell you stories of people
2:36:19that were incredible dancers and not
2:36:21balanced as humans. You'll see people
2:36:23who are both and you'll see the people
2:36:25who quit because it was just too hard
2:36:26and they wanted balance. It's like uh
2:36:29you you smile a lot. What what's your
2:36:31spirit animal, man?
2:36:33Or do you have five of them? All right,
2:36:34let's do this. I like this game. I like
2:36:36this game. I'm not into astrology, but I
2:36:37like this game.
2:36:39If you're willing, what aerial,
2:36:41terrestrial, and aquatic animal do you
2:36:44Do you Do you would just like and
2:36:46admire? You don't have to be like them.
2:36:47Don't worry. If you say you like the
2:36:49minnow, it's okay, you know? Yeah, we
2:36:51we're no one's going to think you less
2:36:52the man,
2:36:54no matter what the answer is.
2:36:55>> I'm People often say I'm like a Labrador
2:36:57on amphetamines.
2:36:59>> [laughter]
2:36:59>> So, that that fits.
2:37:00>> seem very cheerful. Okay, so that's your
2:37:02terrestrial animal. Let's just say the
2:37:04Labrador. You don't need the
2:37:05amphetamines.
2:37:05>> Yeah, yeah. I think uh
2:37:07orcas, especially when I bulk up for a
2:37:09swim, cuz orcas are so big and chunky,
2:37:12but
2:37:12mildly athletic as well. So, an orca in
2:37:14the water
2:37:15>> Mhm.
2:37:16>> and in the air
2:37:18>> Oh, that's a great one.
2:37:21>> Mhm.
2:37:22>> I Mhm. I think crows are misunderstood.
2:37:26And again, ancient Nordic mythology,
2:37:28when Floki found Iceland as well, using
2:37:31crows, he would send them off. And then
2:37:33all of a sudden, if they came back,
2:37:34there was no land. He'd send another
2:37:35crow off. It came back, there was no
2:37:36land. Send another one, it doesn't come
2:37:38back. There's land that way.
2:37:39>> It's a crows. Yeah.
2:37:41>> Beautiful. These are These are great
2:37:42examples. And And the the speed of your
2:37:44response tells me that this is true. I I
2:37:46often think about this with people in my
2:37:48life. I need to spend a lot of time with
2:37:49them before I I go
2:37:51that's their terrestrial animal. And And
2:37:54And always, always, always, people
2:37:57want to know, and if it's an animal that
2:37:59they don't want to look like, for
2:38:01whatever reason, or that isn't like
2:38:03tough enough if they're a guy, or, you
2:38:05know, graceful enough if they're a
2:38:06woman, is often the the response. Then
2:38:08they're like, "Oh, no, I wanted to be
2:38:10like a damselfish." [laughter]
2:38:11And I'm like, "No, but But don't you
2:38:13understand like the parrotfish?" And
2:38:15they're like, "I look like a parrot."
2:38:15I'm like, "No, you Have you ever seen
2:38:17the parrotfish?" You know, so you can
2:38:18You can really get yourself into trouble
2:38:19with this one. So, it's always best to
2:38:21let them answer.
2:38:22>> I think you're spot-on. And I I do claim
2:38:24authority on this. I've been doing this
2:38:25since I was a kid. So. [laughter]
2:38:28Ross, actually, you are a remarkable
2:38:30human for certainly the physical feats
2:38:34that you've accomplished. I will ask you
2:38:36in a moment what's next, but
2:38:38equally important for the teachings that
2:38:41you provide the world, not just by
2:38:43example, but you you're a real
2:38:44intellectual. An intellectual is, by
2:38:47definition, someone who can
2:38:49parse and communicate things at multiple
2:38:51levels of granularity.
2:38:53That's an intellectual. You're an
2:38:54intellectual. I love your um your
2:38:57command of literature and philosophy and
2:39:00and just ideas and the natural world and
2:39:02the brain. I I mean, this is I will go
2:39:05on record saying this is one of the most
2:39:06delightful and awesome for me
2:39:09conversations I've ever had on this
2:39:10podcast because you are so full of life.
2:39:13No surprise there. You are like
2:39:15mitochondria in action and it's
2:39:17infectious
2:39:18>> [laughter]
2:39:18>> and I drank a little caffeine here and
2:39:21this morning but man,
2:39:23like [ __ ] caffeine nicotine get yourself
2:39:25some Ross Edgley people and
2:39:28and here today you've given us that. I
2:39:30this is a conversation I'm going to
2:39:31return to many times over and I'd love
2:39:33to roll out the the
2:39:37the opportunity maybe like
2:39:39create some visuals. We've never done
2:39:41this before but create some visuals that
2:39:43maybe could accompany some of the social
2:39:45posts and and on the podcast cuz
2:39:48like you get the credit for doing all
2:39:49these things but I really appreciate
2:39:51your ability and willingness to kind of
2:39:53like meet in the middle on these things
2:39:55and and then run with these ideas. You
2:39:58are one hell of a human being. God bless
2:39:59your parents. God bless your wife
2:40:01Esther. Your son's a lucky kid and uh
2:40:04and I'm guessing that he moves a lot and
2:40:07and
2:40:08and the the future is bright. What's
2:40:10next? What are you going to do and not
2:40:13swim in the Amazon?
2:40:14>> [laughter]
2:40:15>> Yeah, so for those listening we've been
2:40:17we've been talking about various of the
2:40:18swims. I was running them by Andrew and
2:40:20we've identified
2:40:22I believe we called it dick eating
2:40:24bacteria.
2:40:24>> No, so these bacteria go in through the
2:40:27urethra.
2:40:28So that's the the entry point and then
2:40:30they live No, they're not bacteria,
2:40:32they're parasites and they
2:40:34and they'll eat your nervous system and
2:40:35every one of your organs. Please don't
2:40:37do a swim down the Amazon. Paul
2:40:39Rosolie's going to kill me for saying
2:40:40this. Sorry Paul. He's not going.
2:40:43>> [laughter]
2:40:43>> He's not going.
2:40:43>> Penis penis eating parasite.
2:40:46>> Your penis will go first but then all
2:40:47the rest and you won't be sitting there
2:40:49stoic with mud on your face.
2:40:50>> [laughter]
2:40:51>> You'll be wondering why the heck you did
2:40:52this and apologizing to everybody.
2:40:54>> Amazing. [clears throat]
2:40:55We've got we've we've got a few. I think
2:40:57it's so interesting. I'm almost like a a
2:40:58mercenary, a hired mercenary for an
2:41:00amazing cause. So so we've got so many
2:41:03different swims all over the world. And
2:41:05as soon as somebody says, we need to
2:41:07raise awareness, ocean conservation,
2:41:09raise money, then I'm like, "Look, hold
2:41:11my beer. I know a guy." So, I So, I
2:41:13think, you know, you'll be the first to
2:41:14know, but we've got a few a few
2:41:16different ones. And as soon as they say,
2:41:18"Let's go." then then I put my goggles
2:41:20on. You know, load up on caffeine and
2:41:22we're going to go and do it.
2:41:23>> I love it. Well, we had Greek mythology
2:41:26and now we've got Ross Edgley, so thanks
2:41:28for expanding my consciousness and
2:41:31awareness of what's possible. Yeah.
2:41:33You're the man, Ross. Come back.
2:41:35>> so much. This has been awesome. Thank
2:41:36you. Thank you.
2:41:37>> Thank you for joining me for today's
2:41:39discussion with Ross Edgley. To learn
2:41:41more about him and to find a link to his
2:41:42new book, How to Hero: Find Strength,
2:41:45Forge Resilience, and Fulfill Your
2:41:46Purpose, please see the links in the
2:41:48show note caption. If you're learning
2:41:50from and or enjoying this podcast,
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2:43:22today's discussion with Ross Edgley. And
2:43:24last, but certainly not least, thank you
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