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Uniting YouTube Against Fake History Frauds | MILO ROSSI & FLINT DIBBLE | Bridges #21 — Transcript

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0:00and this is just the beginning you you
0:03just watch yourself we have formed an
0:04alliance we have formed an alliance you
0:07name a kid that didn't grow up watching
0:08Indiana Jones and you know we're
0:09inspired by I mean we're practically
0:10sitting with them right now you know a
0:12lot of the public has been primed to
0:13distrust us right and so the only way to
0:16really combat that is not to like go out
0:19and fight these people and debunk them
0:21what we need to do is build a stronger
0:22online community than they have built
0:25yes lack of accountability and no
0:26accountability mechanisms in alternative
0:27media means you can just lie lie lie lie
0:29lie lie lie about everything and it
0:30never really comes back to bite you you
0:32know if you go read Ignatius Donnell's
0:34Atlantis book and then you go read
0:36Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the
0:38Gods you're going to see immediately how
0:41one is derivative of the other when in
0:43fact we dig down to bedrock where we
0:45can't dig any lower there's a glitch to
0:47get through
0:48bedrock the um how do you decide what is
0:51appropriate to place in a museum or how
0:52do you feel about museums o I'll let you
0:55start with that
0:57one hey guys what's up welcome to a
1:00special Roundtable Edition at the
1:02rectangle table we're joined today by
1:05flint and Milo who have been previous
1:07guests of the show and they are here to
1:09talk to us about archaeology debunking
1:12pseudo archaeology and other things
1:14relating to online content Creation in
1:16an educational sphere while also dealing
1:18with misinformation welcome thank you
1:20thank you for having us back yeah good
1:22to be here I'm excited that to be at
1:23this rectangular round table thank you
1:25for having us again you know that's how
1:27we'd probably describe it
1:28archaeologically too it's Cur
1:31linear curv
1:33linear jokes you guys are both laughing
1:36and none of us are laughing okay explain
1:38the joke well you know you have things
1:41that are linear but they have curves to
1:42them because people don't always they
1:44build things in a wonky way cuz you know
1:46people in the past were not always
1:47perfect in how they built stuff and so
1:49we we call walls curve a linear when
1:51they're kind of like a straight line but
1:53they also curve okay all right I want to
1:55ask you now that I have both of you here
1:57okay I need to ask you archaeological
1:59questions I've always wondered about
2:00okay uhoh here we go I don't have an
2:04answer laid on us where was Jesus buried
2:08why don't we have his body no I'm just
2:09kidding no no actually here's a question
2:11um a lot of times there is old stuff
2:15found and people will make the claim
2:17that these people knew how to build uh
2:19like Concrete in a in a special way that
2:22we've just lost technology lost they
2:24they had a thing figured out we've lost
2:25it and now we've rediscovered it or
2:27something like that has that ever been
2:28the case that there was some building
2:30material is some type of construction
2:31thing where there was like lost
2:33technology that for some reason 2,000
2:35years ago people knew how to do a thing
2:36that modern people just didn't
2:37understand as there yeah I don't know
2:40about not being able to understand it
2:41but what you're thinking about is Roman
2:43concrete and so the reason is is that
2:45Roman concrete is actually more durable
2:47than modern concrete because it's made
2:48in a different way they actually use
2:50volcanic soil it's called pelana and it
2:53that's why Roman concrete is still
2:54around but our concrete would never last
2:562,000 years we do it in this sort of
2:58modern way that just doesn't it's not
2:59not durable and so it actually was a
3:01recent publication I think just 5 years
3:03ago that was looking into why that's the
3:05case but I don't think that that
3:07technique was ever forgotten if you see
3:09what I mean it's just we found a cheaper
3:11more affordable way to do it with
3:12materials that were more readily
3:14available rather than having to get
3:15volcanic soil okay yeah one of the
3:18things that is kind of annoying when
3:19people talk about things uh being good
3:21or bad is often times people don't
3:23include that be whether something is
3:25good or bad is a function of how easy it
3:27is to create or the cost as well like
3:30what's better you know like a steak at a
3:31$200 a night Steakhouse or a steak from
3:34Denny's and it's like well I mean it
3:36depends like the steak from Denny's is
3:38$9 so you know you get what you pay for
3:40right um but okay yeah I was curious
3:42because I hear that's that's like a
3:43thing I hear a lot the concrete thing
3:45was one example I can't think of any in
3:47particular but you hear like there's the
3:48Lost building techniques that Noah do
3:50know how to do the stone cutting
3:51specifically I know it comes up inudo
3:54archaeology all the time which is like
3:55that there's a specific block that has
3:58like a partial cut into it and they're
4:00like why would they have is sarcophagus
4:02the Egyptian sarcophagus yeah I think
4:04the the Tik tocker talks about this a
4:06lot and it's like why why if it takes so
4:08long to cut into did they like cut the
4:09fullway into it and stuff like that
4:11which is like I have no idea and I think
4:13the funny argument with that one is I
4:15think the argument sort of goes you know
4:16so it's a sarcophagus where there's a
4:18cut through it and they didn't finish it
4:20and it's like a little bit off like the
4:22guideline and so they're like you know
4:23how did they make it this far before
4:25they clocked that mistake like if they
4:27were really doing it as slowly as
4:28archaeologists say they would wouldn't
4:30they have seen this sooner regardless of
4:32how stupid that is uh the the thing that
4:34I think is the most you know uh
4:35interesting about that is if they did
4:37have some sort of lost high technology
4:39power tool something like that they
4:40could have just done the cut again like
4:42that's even less evidence that they
4:44would have stopped you know like if I
4:45had a diamond tipped buzs saww I would
4:47have just been like all right damn like
4:48line this thing back up we missed that
4:50one zing and like there you go the
4:52sarcophagus is done so when you're
4:53working on something that slowly and I
4:55can't speculate as to why they abandon
4:56the cut um but it's it's interesting
4:58looking at things like that because we
4:59really try and project what our modern
5:01capabilities are onto ancient people
5:03which is just an inappropriate way of
5:04doing it because they did have different
5:06technology than we do and I think that's
5:08what's forgotten is how to just do stuff
5:10in a traditional way right and so we we
5:14live in this modern world and we're like
5:16how could people move a giant block well
5:18look I work on excavations and the
5:20people I work with we have to move giant
5:22blocks by hand out of a trench and I I
5:25don't I'm not a specialist in this but
5:27I've helped pull ropes and stuff like
5:29that you get a team of people who know
5:30what they're doing I'm just there to
5:32with extra hands they know what they're
5:33doing cuz they move these blocks they do
5:35it I have the exact same thought all the
5:37time cuz I wonder how did we ever find
5:39each other as children sometimes cuz we
5:41didn't have cell phones all the time so
5:43like how would you say like I'll see you
5:45someplace at 6 and everybody somehow
5:46would like depart their houses and they
5:48would find each other even though you
5:50couldn't call people you'd like but I
5:51remember you'd like call people's homes
5:53like hey do you know like where Frank is
5:54like oh he's supposed to be at that and
5:55then You' like bike to people's houses
5:57triangulate yeah but and then and then a
5:59more on a more serious note um have you
6:02ever seen there's a there's a YouTube
6:03channel of a guy I'm sure he does more
6:04than just YouTube but he he has like a
6:07fascination with how to move big things
6:09yeah W won and there's a few of the guy
6:12who like invented like some like crazy
6:14stuff of like moving big things
6:19withington he does a great job is there
6:22evidence that any of these types of do
6:24we know how people moved Big Stuff a
6:25long time ago or is that just harder to
6:27well it's more that there's a lot of
6:28different ways they could have done it
6:30and that's also what he's demonstrated
6:31he's demonstrated different ways they
6:33could have done it and so there's no way
6:34to be 100% sure it's that way or this
6:36way or that way but we know they had a
6:38lot of different possible options and so
6:40it's a lot easier to think they use that
6:42kind of those kind of options than to
6:43jump to they had advanced technology and
6:46so you know cuz we know that people can
6:47move large stones and there's
6:49ethnographic photos from like 150 years
6:51ago of you know uh groups of people that
6:54did not have advanced technology of them
6:56moving giant stones that are like 50 60
6:59tons and so we know people can get this
7:02done and there's a lot of different ways
7:03to do that I I think that one of the the
7:05things that I say a lot when talking
7:06about especially you know large
7:08constructions which is something that I
7:09experience in or encounter in pseudo
7:11science a lot is a a sort of lost you
7:14know technology if ever there was one is
7:16the ability for a bunch of people to all
7:18work on the same thing like at risk of
7:20sounding kind of you know like you know
7:21cliche like the Lost technology is
7:23teamwork like like we don't work in a
7:26society anymore where it's you know like
7:2810,000 people people all coming together
7:30to do one gigantic project like we all
7:33work on our own things everyone goes to
7:34their office and yeah we work in a in an
7:36office building where you have a boss
7:37and you have colleagues and everyone's
7:38like collaborating on stuff we
7:39absolutely still do that but like you
7:41know I was in sax iwan in Peru and
7:43there's Stones there that are absolutely
7:44massive and there's I mean I was even
7:45hearing guides like spouting pseudo
7:47science about magnets and things like
7:48that and like I can see when you look at
7:50those like it is hard to wrap your head
7:51around how that happened but you have to
7:53like remember that this was like a
7:55project that the community was dedicated
7:58to like they found a way do it and the
8:00proof is the stone is right there you
8:01know like they did move it and an
8:03interesting thought that I had while I
8:05was there and this is kind of you know
8:06is a little bit more speculative but as
8:07far as kind of like putting out options
8:09of like okay well we don't know exactly
8:11how they did it but they clearly did so
8:12like what are some logical options um I
8:15saw uh a video um back like a few months
8:19before I went to Peru and it was of like
8:21you know some Highway Department in the
8:23middle of the US and they were replacing
8:25a bridge overpass so you know there's a
8:27road that goes over a highway and the
8:29way that they did it was they built uh
8:31the new bridge like a little ways down
8:33the highway next to it so they could
8:34still have that pass running they didn't
8:36have to demolish it and rebuild it and
8:37then in one night they demolished that
8:39bridge and slid the whole new bridge
8:42apparatus over using dish soap like they
8:45put dish soap on the ground and it
8:46reduced the friction enough that it's
8:48like now we can like and they still have
8:49Machinery obviously it wasn't a bunch of
8:50dudes putting their back into it but
8:52they slid it across so when I was in
8:53Peru and we were talking about some of
8:54these sites one of the the really cool
8:56um uh building materials that they would
8:58use um this was really present at um
9:00oano was they had um Terrace farms and
9:03they would pack between the stones with
9:05mud mixed with llama fat which became
9:07somewhat like water uh resistant so the
9:09water would sort of run off it instead
9:11of eroding the stones out and llama fat
9:13like you can put your hand between that
9:15the stones and it's still kind of like
9:16oily on your hands and I'm like I don't
9:18think that you know oil alone would be
9:20enough to move one of these big stones
9:21but I'm like it's it's an example of
9:23just work smarter not harder like if you
9:25had a lot of people to move this thing
9:26it would be easier to move it on like a
9:28greased surface or something that rolls
9:30or something like that than it would be
9:31to just push it along the ground like
9:33when people think about moving these
9:34Stones they so frequently just think of
9:35like ah well they just like you're
9:37telling me they just dragged it like no
9:39of course not like they knew that that's
9:40as stupid as it sounds right now like
9:42they probably did something that was
9:44smarter not harder in order to achieve
9:45this and there's a good example in Egypt
9:47there's this tomb painting where they
9:49show a a team of people 30 40 people
9:52moving a giant statue that would weigh
9:5410 20 tons right and what they actually
9:57show on the tomb painting is people
9:58pouring on the sand cuz it reduces the
10:01friction and so it actually they they
10:03were working smart and when they do
10:05record how they do this kind of stuff we
10:06can see that's on these kind of sledges
10:08and we can see them pouring the water
10:10and we get a sense of how they're
10:11actually doing this and accomplishing it
10:13and so you know in my mind this idea
10:14that they could not do this without
10:16advanced technology that's just
10:18insulting to these people they were they
10:20were super smart they knew how to do
10:22this with the technology they had it's
10:24us that cannot imagine this kind of
10:27technology and it's just a it's a lack
10:29of imagination on our own part to be
10:31fair they had a lot more free time to
10:32think about it they I me well we got a
10:34lot of free time you know we're right
10:35here shatting about it it's also like um
10:38I feel like when I think about like what
10:40we're culturally used to and what we
10:41think about like even like 200 years ago
10:44if a person arrives at like a new uh
10:46like Pioneer Village or whatever A lot
10:48of times they'd all come out to help
10:49them erect a house or erect a barn or
10:51anything like that and doing kind of
10:53minimal standard carpentry was a like
10:56decently common skill where it's like
10:58nowadays that's not a skill at all but
11:00most people are pretty Adept with
11:02computers to some degree right and so
11:04it's like I think part of this is we get
11:06so like presentist and how we think
11:08about ancient peoples and we forget that
11:10like Not only was like the culture
11:12different but also like the way that
11:13they experienced and thought about the
11:14world that includes like how they
11:15thought about Labor how they thought
11:17about like yeah like we we can't imagine
11:19like spending a day like plowing a field
11:22that sounds awful whereas for them
11:23they're like you get a horse to help you
11:25plow a field that sounds awesome right
11:28um and so
11:29I feel like it's just like also
11:31understanding like probably doing lots
11:32and lots of heavy physical labor was
11:34like a little bit more expected in that
11:37day and age as well am I making this up
11:38or do I feel like I read something a
11:40while ago or saw something that had like
11:42the Amish can like build a house in a
11:44day yeah they Barn raising oh yeah maybe
11:47yeah they'll do this like literally time
11:49lapses of them doing it and it's insane
11:51it's just like you know the sun comes up
11:53they're there the skeleton goes up you
11:54know gets to noon they all disappear for
11:56lunch and then they come back sides go
11:57up roof goes on it's done and it's
11:59insane and it's coordination and and I
12:01mean there is even an excellent
12:02excellent example where it's like that
12:04is a large group of people who all have
12:05a shared goal and they go there with the
12:07skills they have and they do it and like
12:09yeah erecting a barn is different than
12:11moving a 20 ton Stone but like how
12:13different really like there's different
12:15skills required there's different you
12:16know things that you're going to need to
12:17be specialized for to do it but like we
12:19have the proof that people can work
12:21really really effectively as a group
12:23over just being an individual yeah or
12:25the the Orthodox acidic Jews in in New
12:28York that were digging the tunnels that
12:30all wow great
12:33example I doubt there was much Machinery
12:35involved in that yeah um H
12:39why what were some of the things that
12:41people did I'm just this is my chance to
12:42just ask crazy archaeology questions
12:44okay man I can never think of a better
12:48thing to steal than than anything out of
12:50a grave okay being a grave rber okay
12:52just burying all sorts of wealth the guy
12:54in there is probably Dead uh it's just
12:56like what were things that people did I
12:59know they tried to put a lot of the
13:00stuff were the only valuable things that
13:02were buried inside of like big pyramids
13:05or did people ever make random Graves
13:06and hope that nobody would find them or
13:07that seems like it would be H in Egypt
13:09they started with pyramids the robbing
13:11was such a problem that they moved to
13:13underground tombs where they'd be less
13:14visible and less accessible to grave
13:16robbers and there's actually a lot of
13:17papyan texts that talk about uh tomb
13:20robbing as a major problem particularly
13:22during periods of Economic downturn and
13:24so you know there's there's texts that
13:26talk about moving Pharaoh's mummies from
13:28one tomb to another we have we've found
13:30tombs with like I don't know a handful
13:32of different pharaohs all in the same
13:34tomb because they were protected from
13:36tomb robbing by by hiding them there and
13:38so it's kind of funny because people
13:40always say well we can't be sure the
13:41pyramids were not tombs because there's
13:43no mummies in them which is a not true
13:45we do have pyramids with full mummies in
13:47them B we have a lot of pyramids that
13:49have skeletal parts or mummy Parts in
13:51them if you see what I mean that have
13:52been Disturbed see we have textual
13:55evidence from these ancient people
13:57talking about how these tombs were
13:58robbed so it's like sorry these were
14:01tombs and we understand the problems of
14:03Tomb robbery particularly during periods
14:06that were rough you know in in ancient
14:08Egypt of like a of like a a group so I
14:11think a lot about like missing stuff
14:13from archaeology like the library the
14:14burning of the Library of Alexandria I
14:16like every time I think about it I get
14:17like a little bit stressed out that's a
14:19little pseudo archaeology actually is it
14:20actually okay tell us about it well it
14:22just wasn't a big deal it was basically
14:24already a defunct library and like like
14:26all the books like all libr are yeah
14:28well like maybe like
14:31some but yeah it was it was really a big
14:33nothing Burger to be honest really so it
14:35was mostly emptied out so we didn't
14:36actually lose much in that in fact go on
14:37Wikipedia there's like a nice big
14:39segment on nothing every time I thought
14:41about it I was like wait we just like
14:43lost yeah don't worry it would have been
14:44that much farther ahead what we have is
14:47basically due to the what monks chose to
14:49copy oh and so what what is lost is due
14:52to the fact that monks chose not to copy
14:54that so that's actually why we're
14:55missing a lot of books it's due to the
14:57fact that Christian monks chose what
14:59they wanted to preserve from the ancient
15:01world and what they did not and so
15:03that's that's that's really what bias is
15:04what we have with the exception of
15:06occasional fines of papy in Egypt or at
15:08herculanum and stuff like that has there
15:10ever been an example of a large loss of
15:13knowledge or something like that would
15:15be akin to what people would imagine the
15:17burning of the Library of Alexandria to
15:18be I think it's mostly just a slow
15:20attrition in this sort of way I can't
15:22think of any specific there's an event
15:25where all a of all the you know there
15:27were so many other libraries well it
15:29wasn't like there's a major library at
15:30pergamon there's major libraries in Rome
15:32and Athens and stuff like that so it's
15:33not like it was just everything was in
15:35the Library of Alexandria only one spot
15:38people copied these Scrolls and and and
15:40stuff like that and disseminated them I
15:41think a potential example I don't know
15:43if it's exactly on the same vein as what
15:45we think of when we think of the burning
15:46of the Library of Alexandria but I think
15:48the Spanish conquest of Latin America
15:50could absolutely a good example because
15:52that that was an example where like you
15:53know they showed you know when when the
15:55Spaniards showed up and the you know um
15:57the the indigenous people they had their
15:59own systems of you know writing and
16:00language that were very different than
16:02what we know of his writing and language
16:03they had you know different uh You Know
16:05chords that they would um like weave
16:07together different colors and things
16:08like that and that requires a specific
16:10skill set in order to know how to read
16:11it and the Spaniards were at a
16:12disadvantage because they didn't know
16:13how to read it so they were relying on
16:15indigenous you know guides the Heretics
16:17to like you know be telling the truth to
16:19them and so like they were like we are
16:21at a disadvantage we don't know how to
16:23process this information there was you
16:25know like information recorded on like
16:26banana leaves so they burned all of it
16:28they killed the people who know how to
16:29read it and now we have some of these
16:31chords left over that survived nobody
16:32knows how to read them so like that's
16:34something where like they came and
16:35instead of like a burning in one tragic
16:37event it was an intentional
16:38extermination of a culture and of all of
16:41the the systems you need in order to
16:43preserve and maintain its history okay
16:45maybe I know I should check it and see
16:47now how much pseudo archaeology I I know
16:49and it's not real to check there's a
16:51there's a a really lot good video essay
16:53that I watch and now I'm wondering if it
16:55was real like good science or bad
16:57science um I won't say the name of the
16:59Creator yet unless we unless we verify
17:01that it's valid and then we'll get rid
17:02of it they were basically talking about
17:04like um the Mayans uh which is a kind of
17:09a misnomer because when we think of
17:10Mayans we think of like Aztecs and Incas
17:12but Mayans was actually a very
17:13heterogenous group of people um at least
17:16according to the video um and then they
17:18talk about how there was like one kind
17:19of Conquistador who collected AFF Fair
17:21body the information and uh destroyed
17:24some of it but then also rewrote a bunch
17:26of histories himself and so a lot of the
17:29histories that we have on this group of
17:30people is from like this one guy in what
17:32he other is that true yeah to some
17:33degree I think it's Bernard sahin or
17:35something like that I can't I don't know
17:37how to pronounce his name because I
17:38don't study Maya stuff but uh yeah so he
17:40was a a Christian Missionary type and he
17:44he was involved in I think destroying
17:46some of this stuff but also trying to
17:47record some of it um and and of course
17:50in that recording there were a lot of
17:51problems um where things changed right
17:54and so I actually talked about this a
17:55little bit when I was on Joe Rogan and
17:57because you you see changes in how
17:59things like ketok Kat are depicted and
18:01and how they're described you know they
18:03they start only after the conquest is
18:05ketok Kat depicted with white skin right
18:08you know is that a type of God he's one
18:09of the Gods yeah and so you know you see
18:11this sort of change there and I had a
18:13there's this great uh archaeologist
18:15curly clapa cloya sorry curly um and he
18:19hosts the tales of Atlantis and so he
18:22actually talks about this a lot on his
18:24podcast and it's really fantastic
18:25everybody check it out okay so it sounds
18:27like that wasn't pseudo archaeology I
18:29like no that sounds I mean I don't know
18:30about the specific details but overall
18:31the gist of it sounds shout out DJ peach
18:33cobbler
18:35right there we go were there um for the
18:38native populations were there a lot of
18:40talking trees or was it just
18:41Pocahontas's
18:43Grand how do you decide what is
18:45appropriate to place in a museum or how
18:47do you feel about museums oh I'll let
18:50you start with that one I need fact
18:51check something sure um look I mean I
18:55think that as long as it's not something
18:57from something sacred to a culture or
19:00it's it's not something like like
19:02ancestors of a culture where they do not
19:03want that stuff on display in a museum I
19:06think in general a museum is a good
19:08place for things to go however of course
19:10you can't just take stuff out of its
19:12country of origin um I'm a full believer
19:14in repatriation um you know the British
19:17museum should return those Parthenon
19:18marbles as well as the Ben and bronzes
19:20and all this kind of stuff because they
19:22just literally ripped it off you know
19:24they just they they conquered those
19:25places well in Ben in they and they they
19:27were in the in in Athens and just sawing
19:30it off the building literally they sawed
19:32through the marbles to take them with
19:34them and it's just like you know this
19:36stuff needs to go back to where it comes
19:38from it needs to be displayed in the
19:40context in which you can understand it
19:41better and so I think museums certainly
19:44perform a very valuable function I
19:45collaborate with lots of museums but
19:47it's a really tricky subject of how to
19:49deal with this the mistakes of the past
19:51if you see what I mean past
19:52archaeologists CU yeah is the resistance
19:55to repatriation basically they don't
19:56want to like lose the things that bring
19:58them in in in money
20:02no to get into the British museum fre
20:04you get into the British Museum free for
20:06example and most museums that have this
20:08like in the states as well it's like
20:10suggested donations so they're not
20:12making a ton of money off of this but
20:14you know it's it's really silly in my
20:17mind because when museums have
20:18collaborated with countries of origin to
20:20repatriate material usually the the the
20:23country of origin is happy to leave
20:25material there on a long-term loan as
20:27long as they actually have ownership and
20:29they could get it back if they want it
20:31because it's their material they will
20:33they're happy to leave material often
20:35times in other countries to display
20:37their culture and advertise it if you
20:39see what I mean their past and and their
20:40Heritage and so I actually think more
20:42museums need to collaborate with these
20:45cultures of origin because you know most
20:47cultures of origin they're really proud
20:49of their Heritage it's just they want
20:51those specific really famous things here
20:53maybe we could a lot of things that
20:55happen is you have short-term loans as
20:57well where artifacts start rotating from
20:59one Museum to another to another right
21:01and that lets people all over the world
21:03get exposed to this kind of stuff and
21:05that's how it should be but it requires
21:07you know empathy and collaboration and
21:09cooperation not just saying it's in our
21:11building we're keeping it yeah we stole
21:14it first and I I think that the the
21:16Benning bronzes are actually an
21:18important um sort of example to what we
21:19were talking about earlier are you guys
21:20familiar with the bronzes at all so it's
21:22this series of plates that were from
21:25like plates like you know squares uh
21:27from Benin which was uh you know an
21:29immensely prosperous West African
21:31civilization and when you know the EUR
21:35European uh English settlers you know
21:37colonists went there and stole all their
21:39[ __ ] they took these bronzes and they're
21:40you know beautiful hammered out but they
21:42they tell like the story of the
21:44civilization they were recorded history
21:46and when they took them they took them
21:48all out of order so I think this is
21:50another example of like you have
21:51single-handedly gone to a civilization
21:54and destroyed their memory so you've
21:56taken them you've taken them out of the
21:57country and you have reshuffled them in
21:59a way that we don't know how they went
22:01together so you have single-handedly
22:02wiped the mind of this place so that is
22:05something which I think someone could
22:07probably argue whether that was
22:08intentional malicious uh you know but I
22:11don't it's obviously not quite as uh you
22:13know extreme of an example as with the
22:14Spanish Conquest in Latin America where
22:16it was a a very obvious attempt to
22:19squash and Destroy and kill um but I
22:21mean it's an example nonetheless of you
22:23know a one event that single-handedly
22:26you know destroys a huge amount of
22:27information about a place
22:29okay wrapping the museum thing up so cuz
22:31my next question was going to be is
22:33there a type of utilitarian argument to
22:35make where okay yeah maybe there was
22:36some bad actions committed but the
22:38interest that uh is fostered as a result
22:40of having all of these artifacts in a
22:41place you know maybe it's worth it in
22:43this case uh but it sounds like your
22:45argument I wasn't aware of like the
22:47collaborative efforts that you could go
22:48through the country that you could
22:49actually solve not only solve those
22:51utilitarian issues but make a stronger
22:53argument for it because maybe now those
22:54objects have the ability to move from
22:56place to place for other people to see
22:57it which deals with
22:59and also like you know you return the
23:00paron marbles you get something else
23:02from Greece for example you know and
23:03there's this people want to share their
23:06Heritage on average there's obviously
23:07some groups that really do not because
23:09they were you know totally exploited um
23:11but but most groups cultural groups or
23:14nation states they want to share their
23:15Heritage it's just a matter of doing so
23:17in a respectful collaborative manner is
23:19there any like logistic limits that
23:21would come with that collaborative like
23:22moving things around like I'm imagining
23:24all these old preserved things have to
23:26be moved managed and held in very very
23:29specific ways is there any like concern
23:32that like different museums or the
23:34travel between or even different
23:35countries won't be able to maintain kind
23:38of the preservation standards needed for
23:40these items well that's one of the big
23:41issues with the British museum right now
23:43it's not as climate controlled as it
23:45should be and so you know they used to
23:46say to Greece you guys don't have a good
23:48place to store this stuff the the Greeks
23:50built a whole new Museum the Acropolis
23:52Museum which you can go to I highly
23:53recommend it it was literally a monument
23:56designed to house these things in
23:57state-of-the-art condition conditions
23:59and so you know far better conditions
24:00than in the British museum so yes that
24:02is an issue and obviously you do not
24:04want to give your heritage to even lend
24:08it to them if they're not going to
24:09properly care for it and so yeah that's
24:11certainly something important you have
24:12trained conservators that sort of you
24:14know package it up carefully and make
24:16sure that it's displayed in a climate
24:18controlled environment and make sure
24:19that it's not going to be damaged either
24:20in movement or display or whatnot and so
24:23but that's actually really common Museum
24:25exhibits travel around it's really not
24:27an uncommon thing
24:28and and that's also how you get to
24:30create and curate new kinds of displays
24:32for the public which is really important
24:34because to be honest in the British mum
24:36In The Pen Museum in any sort of Museum
24:38you can think of only about 1% of their
24:40actual artifacts are on display at any
24:42given time there's so much in storage
24:44that you basically need to be a scholar
24:46or a student to go behind the scenes and
24:48actually see and study and things like
24:50that and so but this also leads to
24:52problems to study this stuff so many
24:53people are interested in this material
24:55and it's distributed around the world so
24:57you know I write about this in the book
24:58I'm writing on Atlantis where if you
24:59want to study you know the Parthenon in
25:01a proper way you need to be able to go
25:03travel all over the world to different
25:05museums where different things are
25:06stored and that's that's just so
25:09inaccessible yeah you know who was it I
25:11feel like I read about this after the
25:12first dune movie came out was it
25:14somebody in the was it Egyptians people
25:17people who lived in a desert environment
25:18where you wouldn't imagine them to be
25:19able to do this were able to cool things
25:21in these like really deep things that
25:22they would build and I think they made
25:24ice am I making this up you have any
25:25idea what I'm talking about I don't know
25:26about ice but there are different ways
25:29where they use drafts and shade to cool
25:31things somewhat but I'm not sure about
25:33ice I think it was Ice I you just don't
25:35know about
25:36no archology is huge remember how
25:40theyed archology and letting get away
25:44that up okay you were going to say
25:45something I think yeah I I think that
25:47like on paper I you know I like the idea
25:50of you know a world Museum in the in the
25:52context of you know playing a game of
25:54civilization or something like that but
25:56like I really don't know there's a way
25:58to ethically do that in practice simply
26:01because the the world Museum that we
26:04have when we think of as like the
26:05British Museum and many other museums
26:06are founded on artifacts that were
26:08stolen at a time when they were you know
26:10taken as Colonial spoils so like these
26:12weren't things that were taken as sort
26:13of like hey this is really cool and we
26:14want to make a world Museum can we like
26:16do a trade here and something like that
26:17and it was like an agreement it was like
26:19wow so you guys have some nice stuff
26:21over there we're going to just yink that
26:22off you know saw the stuff off the the
26:23parthan on and you know we're going to
26:25just call it a day so but but the the
26:27thing that I want to you know kind of
26:28extrapolate on that Flint was saying is
26:30in the ability that we have now to
26:32create amazing exhibits like when you
26:35know the the Elgen marbles were first
26:36stolen and things like that um you know
26:38it was you could really only have one
26:40copy of them but now we have amazing
26:42ways to make replications of these
26:44things and that's where I think that we
26:45could really hopefully be able to find
26:46some middle ground in the future I
26:48watched a video recently that um I don't
26:50know the the you know uh development of
26:52it at this point but it was this Greek
26:54man who's working uh on like really high
26:56resolution like photogram scanning for
26:59the specific intent of being able to get
27:01like really highres images of artifacts
27:04with the ultimate goal of having the
27:05Elgen Marbles repatriated and having the
27:08technology to be able to make like exact
27:10replicas of them to go to the British
27:11museum so granted I don't think the
27:13Greeks should have to go through all
27:15these hurdles to get their own stuff
27:17back but I think that it's like a really
27:19it opens a really interesting
27:20conversation where it's like if you
27:22could get an exact replica of the Elgen
27:24marbles that to the Layman will look
27:25exactly the same when they're up there
27:27can we have the original back we'll make
27:28you these ones you can put them in your
27:30Museum and then when people go there
27:31they can still have the world Museum you
27:33know like the benine bronzes can be back
27:35in benine and you know we can make
27:36replicas of them we have they have so
27:38much money and like Prestige you have
27:40all the best artists in the world we
27:42have all this technology that you can
27:43make amazing replications make replicas
27:46make the world Museum and give the
27:47originals back to the people who they
27:49belong to you know can I jump in please
27:52uh we don't need that
27:53technology I'm not saying the technology
27:56and photogrametry and 3D printing is not
27:57great but the 00 years ago they've
28:00already made accurate casts you know
28:03there's casts of of of the paron marbles
28:06in the Acropolis Museum in Athens and
28:09perfectly accurate casts right so
28:11accurate that they have like you know
28:12the little pieces that fell off the that
28:14Elgen did not take and they have the
28:16bigger piece in the British museum they
28:17take the cast of the B of the bigger
28:19piece and they slot in the little piece
28:21that's still that's amazing you know
28:24these kind of replicas are really common
28:25you want to go see one of the greatest
28:27painted caves of all time as a little
28:29kid I got to go in the original Last Co
28:31but you can't anymore it's all a replica
28:33but I've been in the replica and it is
28:37Lasco is one of the greatest pton caves
28:39that it's just beautiful uh images from
28:41the Stone Age from like 20 30,000 years
28:43ago sea cave that's like lifted no
28:45that's Coster cave if you've seen like
28:48cave painting.
28:51PNG and so uh so you know but going into
28:54the replica cave it's they're actually
28:56on last Co 3 now and so they can't have
28:58so many people go in because the
29:00humidity you bring in from breathing
29:01it's really damaging to the paintings
29:03and so but the the the replica it's not
29:05just a replica of the paintings it's a
29:07replica of the geology of the cave so
29:10you're still going into a fully
29:12authentic experience it's just the
29:14people know that it's a a replica so
29:15they're like but it's like no you get
29:17the full experience of going into this
29:19cave and seeing exactly what it was like
29:21so so you're kind of saying that it's
29:23not a matter of whether or not we can
29:25make replicas good enough it's matter of
29:29you know the people who actually have
29:30the originals being like well it
29:31wouldn't be the same so we want to keep
29:33real this mental block we have when to
29:36be honest look a lot of what we study
29:37are digital things anyway a lot of what
29:40as a scholar you you do Hands-On work
29:42but you also do work on replicas in a
29:44sense often times digital captures of
29:46stuff I would say though that argument
29:47can kind of go both ways because then
29:49because if you would have flipped that
29:50and go okay well what if we just make
29:51perfect replicas and we send it back to
29:52the people they're like well I don't
29:54want the replica I want the real thing
29:55like okay well that's why we want to
29:56look at it well that's what they have
29:58that's actually what they have is the
29:59replica you make the replica you take
30:01the originals you put them in boxes you
30:03shuffle them
30:05around some in some real existential
30:08territory there what's the difference
30:10You' be able to figure it out some isop
30:12analysis question okay lots of more
30:14questions around like uh preserving old
30:15things okay so say you have um you make
30:18a big Discovery okay and there's all
30:21this like crazy cool cultural stuff um
30:24from you know culture Zeta is discovered
30:27and you unearth like a home and there's
30:29like a maybe a burial place inside and
30:32like a whole living room and all these
30:33artifacts okay and then there's one guy
30:36who's 80 years old and he's alive and
30:38he's like I don't want any of that to
30:39ever be messed with and you're like okay
30:41well he's alive and I guess I'm assuming
30:43you would say well we should respect
30:44that culture and that guy's life and
30:45then he dies next year is it like fair
30:48game now it's like or if you would have
30:49discovered the guy would have been dead
30:51can you like unearth all of it like how
30:52do you decide earlier you said that um
30:54for things that people want to remain uh
30:56sacred like like respect those and not
30:59une those and not display those but do
31:01we create like a weird dichotomy where
31:03it's like we just discovered some [ __ ]
31:04God I hope all the people who are
31:06associated with us are dead so that we
31:07can put it in a museum or is it like
31:09there's like one guy that's still alive
31:10and now he's bling how you sort this out
31:12I don't think it's a [ __ ] or anything I
31:14think like as archaeologists we have to
31:16collaborate with these people sure
31:17that's like what we do when I you know
31:19it's funny cuz we have this big debate
31:21here in the us where we have this you
31:22know nagpra and other laws about how to
31:25deal with indigenous culture and it's
31:27about respecting
31:28the the wishes of these living cultures
31:30right and their Heritage and that's
31:32really important but like what we don't
31:34realize we have all these big arguments
31:35about it it's like should we do this why
31:37are we letting indigenous people decide
31:39our science and it's like f you man when
31:41I'm in Greece I have to follow the laws
31:43in Greece I can't just go do whatever I
31:46want I have to apply for a permit I need
31:48to demonstrate why I'm doing it they
31:49need to give me permission I cannot do
31:51that without their permission and so
31:53when I go to a different country I need
31:55to do that so when we're here why should
31:57we not have the same kind of things for
32:00people that are alive and you know
32:01there's so many examples of people in
32:03you know the last 100 years ago 50 years
32:06ago whatever of literally stealing their
32:08religious statues from East Asia and now
32:10they're in like the Met Museum and
32:11[ __ ] like that and it's like that's
32:13literally what people did they went to
32:15an active Temple where people were
32:17worshiping and they ripped the statue
32:18out of there and brought it to a museum
32:21and it's just like that would be like
32:22going into your church and ripping out
32:25the the the the the crucifixion and
32:27bringing it into a museum is that
32:29something that you think people should
32:30be allowed to do I mean you here so
32:32here's another question these are really
32:33tough also ethical questions too so yeah
32:35I don't know if there are super right
32:37answers on all of these
32:39um it feels like when you go back to a
32:42certain point of time uh for certain
32:45types of cultures um oh man I'm about to
32:48this is going to be all this is going to
32:49be normatively loaded so bad and so
32:50white and so Western so forgive me
32:54for to learn that's the idea so um
32:58I feel like a alt riter right
33:00now for the Western cultures that
33:03survived or thrived or um engaged in
33:07like imperialism colonialism uh captured
33:10artifacts killed people enslaved peoples
33:12these types of societies that are alive
33:14today that are the dominant cultures um
33:16seem to have to take uh it seems like we
33:19can we can make normative judgments
33:21about behaviors they had engaged in we
33:23could go this was bad that should go
33:24back you should feel bad about this and
33:26these are like crimes that these
33:27countries have committed uh Great
33:29Britain the United States even that like
33:31we should we should reckon with um
33:34however one thing we're not asking
33:36people to feel bad we're just trying
33:38trying
33:40toled like a moral crime or moral wrong
33:43has been committed that like taking yeah
33:45so if I were to go into um let's say
33:48that I were I would to discovered like
33:50an old Aztec Temple okay um and I were
33:54to find like a a statue or something I
33:56was like this is cool I want to take
33:58this and I want to display this
33:59somewhere okay and somebody catches me
34:01okay the archaeology police show up and
34:03they go you can't take that from that
34:05culture that's not fair okay and then I
34:07would to say okay well why is it that
34:10for and I will be I'm going to go full
34:13Vash here and use the Nazi example why
34:15is it that it's okay to steal or take
34:17something from like the Nazi
34:18civilization and display their stuff
34:20when that Empire was destroyed but the
34:22Aztecs who I know because I watched a
34:24documentary called apocalyptic okay I
34:26know that the Aztec were involved in a
34:28lot of exploitation of other cultures
34:30why do I have to respect their statues
34:31and their monuments I can't take
34:32anything out of that but for other
34:34people like say like you know fascist
34:36states that existed around World War II
34:37we can take that and display that like
34:39how do you sort through what's okay
34:41what's not okay I don't think it's okay
34:43to display Nazi [ __ ] Sure hold let me
34:47clarify I'm not say I don't mean like
34:49flying a swastic flag out here but I
34:51mean like I'm sure there are museums
34:52World War II museums where you can see
34:53like but some of that of course is you
34:55know the German government and people
34:57are okay with that if you see what I
34:59mean because they understand the
35:00importance of showing the errors that
35:03they committed you know in Germany
35:05they're very staunch on that of of of of
35:07acknowledging the the harm that was
35:09committed and trying to teach people
35:11from doing that kind of harm again in
35:12the future and so you know that's in a
35:15sense with the permission of that
35:17culture of origin and so there's nothing
35:20wrong that's why I said there's nothing
35:21wrong with displaying stuff in museums
35:23as long as you have that kind of
35:25permission in a collaborative fashion
35:27right
35:28I guess like I feel like people would
35:29feel more normatively okay though with
35:31the idea of like say there was a family
35:33like that's alive right now in Germany
35:35that had lots of Nazi ties and they had
35:37like some really interesting artifacts
35:38from World War II and stuff like that
35:40and they're like no no no I don't I
35:42don't want these things present I don't
35:44in general um I basically I I understand
35:47AR I think academics would just respect
35:49that fundamentally but I think
35:51normatively a lot of people be like yeah
35:52it would be probably okay to just like
35:54take it anyways and like and put it up
35:55because like they're Nazis and they're
35:57defending Nazis now um whereas if it's a
36:00family that's connected to just like a
36:01more like neutral like religious group
36:03or something like that even the
36:04religious group is mostly conquered and
36:05gone if it's like their descendants and
36:07like no no no most people would
36:08normatively be like no you can't take
36:11that that's like bad and so I guess like
36:13there is that that like interesting like
36:15dichotomy that exists that I'm curious
36:16if the field just kind of goes cart
36:18blanch they have a strong principle and
36:20it doesn't really matter how we
36:22normatively feel about that culture
36:24or do you get what I'm asking sort of I
36:27mean I I I don't think there's a big
36:29difference if you see what I mean I I
36:31don't think in the field it matters that
36:33like the Romans were evil because the
36:34Romans were evil people you know they
36:36enslaved a lot of people it's not about
36:38a value judgment of this culture it's
36:41about understanding the laws and respect
36:43for the survivors today if something's
36:45found in Italy Italy has the right to
36:48decide what to do with it right if
36:50something's found in Navajo Nation
36:52traditional land Navajo Nation should
36:54have the right to be able to determine
36:55what to do with it and so that's really
36:57what it's about if there I it's tough to
37:00talk about Nazi artifacts I don't really
37:02get but whatever if you want to talk
37:04about someone's family heirlooms well
37:06then they're probably owned by that
37:08family so it's their property so even
37:10today we'd need the permission of that
37:12the person who owns the the their
37:14heirlooms to display it because they own
37:16it right and so that's the key is you
37:19you you can't just strip things from
37:20people and just take it I I think that I
37:23don't know I I agree with all of that I
37:24think that all makes a lot of sense and
37:26there again there's kind of like no
37:27right answer to this and I'm sure
37:28everyone will kind of have a different
37:29take but one of the things I'm kind of
37:30thinking about is like I don't know if
37:32it's as good of a parallel as I think
37:35we're kind of treating it where I don't
37:37know if I would like say that there is a
37:40like concrete correlation between Like A
37:42Nazi artifact and you know the the idol
37:44you found in the Aztec Temple cuz like I
37:47don't know and maybe you know you guys
37:48can check me on this if this isn't right
37:49but like the Nazis weren't like a
37:50civilization like it was like a you know
37:52it it was an ideological group that
37:54arose it was a you know military thing
37:56and yeah they do have like there is the
37:57Nazi era of Germany where they have like
37:59there are artifacts from that time and I
38:01do get that but like you know the Aztec
38:03culture was something that regardless of
38:04how many people they subjugated and you
38:06know how much uh you know destruction
38:09they wrought like it was something that
38:10like lasted for a very long time was
38:12part of like an EB and flow of culture
38:13and I guess you could argue that the
38:15Nazis were the same way but like I I
38:16find a hard time seeing an exact
38:18parallel in that because they were
38:20something that had a lot more of a um I
38:23don't know there was a longer time and
38:24it was more of a cultural development
38:25and based in a little bit more than sort
38:27of like a modern uh uh you know
38:29political ideology I guess the question
38:30would be like say nuclear war happens
38:32climate change happens and then new
38:33humans are spreading over the planet a
38:35thousand years from now and they uncover
38:37the Lost Society of Great Britain and
38:39then they find the British Museum and
38:41then people like wait we need to take
38:42these and put take them back hold on
38:45that was British Society okay that was
38:46their culture now their culture was one
38:48of theft and thing from other cultures
38:50but that was part of their societ and it
38:52is kind of funny that you honestly bring
38:53up an interesting uh point I remember uh
38:55learning about this in one of my
38:56archaeology classes in in college uh
38:58that people have been kind of doing this
39:00literally forever is the other thing uh
39:01I think the term for it is spolia um in
39:04like archaeological sites where they'll
39:05find uh you know buildings that are
39:07constructed with materials from other
39:08older buildings so and like that's
39:11hilarious like people have been doing
39:12that literally forever like you Romans
39:13did it to the Greeks right Romans did to
39:15the Greeks and then the next people did
39:16it with the Roman stuff and yeah we sort
39:18of think of it as the life cycle of an
39:20archaological artifact so you know in
39:21the news lately there's been all this
39:23talk of like tearing down statues right
39:26but that's actually part of that stat
39:27statues life cycle if you will you know
39:29in museums in Greece and whatever we
39:31have statues that the Christians tore
39:33down they knocked off their noses they
39:36Tagg them with crosses and they're in
39:38museums and that's part of that statue's
39:39history you see what I mean yeah and so
39:42like us tearing down statues actually
39:45adds you know value in a sense
39:47historical value to that statue and so
39:50because it has that story behind it and
39:52it tells us about our culture today not
39:54that you would encourage anybody to go
39:55and vandalize any statues or anything
39:57the destruction of States I think it
39:59depends on the Statue and the situation
40:01I I I don't see a reason to preserve
40:03everything that's not what we do if we
40:04want to preserve everything then we need
40:07to stop living sure because you can't
40:09preserve everything and so we need to be
40:11conscious about selecting what we
40:13preserve and for why because we don't
40:15have the the funds and abilities to
40:16preserve everything but it creates that
40:17moral issue of essentially what gets
40:19desecrated is essentially what the
40:22present culture decides as probably evil
40:24and bad right which is like this
40:28like okay well if we feel like this
40:30thing is evil and bad right now
40:32obviously the people at the time
40:34definitely would have disagreed and they
40:36would have felt exceptionally
40:37disrespected uh by doing those things so
40:39it's like how do we like draw These Fine
40:41Lines other than like it's Vibes man
40:44whatever feels good for us in present
40:46culture being like repatriation sounds
40:47really good to our culture because our
40:49culture values that right now but 200
40:51years from now they might be like that's
40:53cringe like who
40:54cares repatriation is cringe I don't
40:57know I I I think that that is the key
40:59though we're making decisions for now
41:01and thinking about the future as we make
41:02those decisions you know archaeologists
41:04we have a very deep time perspective
41:07it's one of the advantages of
41:08archaeology and and that deep time
41:10perspective I told you guys about that
41:11wall I excavated yesterday that ended up
41:13being a modern wall that was constructed
41:15by you know the the conservators at
41:17Pompei did such a good job of making it
41:19look like the original right and so now
41:22we know when we reconstruct an ancient
41:23wall there's like a 10 to one rule from
41:2510 ft away it should look authentic from
41:27one foot away you should be able to
41:28recognize that it's a modern
41:30reconstruction right cuz we have that
41:31long-term perspective we don't want
41:33future archaeologists to to be confused
41:36and so you know same thing why we don't
41:37excavate a whole site because we
41:39understand that that's going to need to
41:41be sampled later with different methods
41:42and different questions and so you know
41:44it's the same thing with what we choose
41:45to preserve and how we do it these are
41:47important discussions to have and to
41:49think through what are our values now
41:52and how can we make sure that this stuff
41:53is available in the future or at least a
41:55sample of it is how do you weigh uh um
41:57and again I understand this is not maybe
41:59this isn't completely in the purview of
42:01archaeology but um the in in Canada I
42:04think there was a tribe called I think
42:06it's like the Wet N Yahoo or something
42:08um but one of the one of the
42:09disagreements that they had when it came
42:10to constructing pipelines in the
42:12Northwest was they would have um I think
42:15they would have I think they call like a
42:16band a band camp or a band Council but
42:18basically you would have a group of like
42:20democratically elected leaders that
42:21represent the tribe and they were in
42:23favor of a lot of the construction of
42:25these pipelines because it represented a
42:26lot of economic activ and jobs and
42:27everything but then you had like the
42:29traditional like patri like uh tribal
42:32leaders who were opposed to it and you
42:34had this huge conflict between the two
42:36and you know obviously Western person
42:39like me and other people in Canada were
42:41saying okay well the democratically
42:42elected leaders want to move ahead with
42:43this project and that should happen and
42:45they're democratically elected but
42:46people that were more um I can say uh
42:49respectful or accent of the older
42:50culture would say okay well these like
42:51democratically elected people are part
42:53of like a western imposition essentially
42:55that we would have never had you guys
42:57not come to this land and the older
42:59people uh that were like more
43:01traditionally chosen say that they don't
43:02want to ever you know build on these
43:03lands do you ever come into conflict
43:06where as an archaeologist you guys are
43:08trying to decide how to um how to
43:10proceed on some land and maybe the
43:12government of Egypt or maybe the
43:14government of some country says yeah we
43:15think this is fine but there might be
43:17like a local representative group
43:19somebody that might even have like a
43:20stronger personal historical tile land
43:22like you shouldn't do that uh how do you
43:24decide yeah sorry yeah I own it's going
43:28to always be a case by case basis and
43:29this is this is this is actually a
43:31really tricky question especially with
43:33you know rules like nagpra where
43:35actually multiple tribes might actually
43:36have a claim on artifacts uh burials
43:40ancestors Etc and so because the and
43:43that that creates issues that are not
43:45easy to navigate and like you said you
43:46know in other countries as well same
43:48sort of thing you know you excavate on
43:50land that has a very significant
43:51archaeological site well that land owner
43:54doesn't want to sell their land but they
43:55have to sell the land to the government
43:57the government expropriates it and so
43:59you know they're going to then plant
44:00olive trees on it to make it more
44:02valuable or something like that cuz then
44:03they just set a price and so you know
44:05yeah these are these are conflicts the
44:08Archaeology is not some sort of neutral
44:11situation it's about figuring out and
44:13negotiating these tricky ethical
44:15dilemmas yeah Case by case is really I
44:17mean the only way that it can kind of
44:19operate and again you know Flint has you
44:21know much more extensive experience with
44:23this than I do but in the you know uh
44:24one of the examples that comes to mind
44:26for me is when I went to karane I was um
44:29walked around by um a man whose family
44:32had lived on that land like literally
44:34forever he was this Kurdish guy his
44:36family has been there since you know as
44:37long as they can remember and he was
44:39thrilled about it like he's like yeah I
44:40always knew there was something on this
44:41hill you can see the tops of the stone
44:43sticking out like we let our sheep graze
44:44here I remember playing on the Rocks as
44:45a kid and like now it's being excavated
44:47and like he was thrilled about that
44:48because like there's people coming to
44:49this areir I mean you're like you know
44:5120 M from the border with Syria like
44:52this is a part of the world that like
44:53does not see a lot of Tourism you know
44:55and he's like this is great like there's
44:56like like people here who are interested
44:58in this there's like activity happening
45:00on this site I finally get to see what's
45:01under the ground there so that case was
45:03a great example of someone who like this
45:05is their ancestral land this is their
45:06traditional land and they are thrilled
45:08about what's happening there so again
45:10case-by case basis where there could be
45:12an example and I don't know what would
45:13happen if he was you know very against
45:15excavation but in this case he was
45:16absolutely thrilled about it I was going
45:17to say politically that sounds kind of
45:18scary if I didn't realize so that's very
45:21far Southeast in turkey that implicates
45:23a lot of Kurdish people who are not fans
45:25of the Turkish people there that was a
45:27that spooky that was a very challenging
45:29thing to navigate while I was there
45:31because I was you know kind of Vaguely
45:33Familiar with the politics of that
45:35situation but going there you get very
45:37familiarized with it very quick and we
45:38were there um within a like four or five
45:41months I think of the earthquake that
45:44was like centered on like adamen so like
45:46the Kurdish part of turkey was like
45:48decimated by a huge earthquake and like
45:51response was really slow I'm not going
45:52to get into all the politics stuff now
45:53but it was really interesting and
45:55politics is a huge part of it we talked
45:56about this yesterday like I don't want
45:58politics to be part of archaeology but
45:59it will always have some politics
46:01because it's there will be leverage for
46:03one reason or another by one group or
46:05one people and that's just the way it is
46:07and that's an important part of it this
46:08is why archaeologists spend a lot of
46:09time in a country I've lived in Greece
46:10for like seven eight years and you get
46:12to know the people you got to know the
46:14the the politics even because if you
46:16want to do research there you need to be
46:17able to navigate that effectively and
46:19you need to understand the impact your
46:21research has on that local situation
46:23right and so you know there's a big
46:25problem these days with the rise in
46:27archaological science where people will
46:28just fly into all these different places
46:30and take materials and that's that's
46:32that's that's a big ethical conundrum if
46:34you see what I mean we want to not go
46:36back to that era we want to actually be
46:38engaged with the modern cultures and
46:40people that live there there's a lot of
46:43people that still think that the
46:44pyramids were built basically 99% by
46:46slave labor aliens slave aliens it was
46:51just you know is is that true is that
46:52not true I haven't I've never dug into
46:54these by Deep I've heard that it was
46:55actually a lot of like workers
46:58think so they've actually excavated one
46:59of the the workers uh villages in Giza
47:03and stuff like that and they have a lot
47:04of evidence for their diet and what
47:05they're doing and stuff like that and so
47:07yeah when they were paid they were like
47:09Craftsmen you know like I I I I hear
47:11that a lot and it's something I've had
47:12to debunk a lot because I've also pedal
47:14that as well like I feel like it's kind
47:16of just the thing people think of with
47:17pyramids where like it's not even like
47:19pseudo science misinformation that's
47:21being like pedal to you it's sort of
47:22just like what the general understanding
47:23of it is like when you think about the
47:24building of the pyramid is like oh they
47:26did it with slave labor like it's kind
47:27of like like The Prince of Egypt it's
47:29like an urban myth that just sort of has
47:30like perpetuated so like I've totally
47:32fallen into that but in the research
47:33that I've done which granted is probably
47:35not as deep as someone who's like really
47:36studied Egypt I don't think there is
47:39extensive evidence for it being the
47:40large part of the workforce I recommend
47:42everybody check out the fake history
47:43Hunter on Twitter and she just wrote a
47:45nice book and I've learned that I
47:47sometimes pedal fake history because
47:49there's these myths that just get
47:50repeated over and over again and so yeah
47:53she does a really good job of sort of
47:54debunking these things that are just so
47:56popular today that's just wrong mhm yeah
47:59interesting um I'm super curious about
48:03um I remember learning a bunch
48:05about this is and I'm 99% confident this
48:09is not true um batteries specifically
48:13this idea that batteries were invented
48:15I've heard like Egyptians had it and I'm
48:17like yeah that seems ridiculous came to
48:19the right
48:21guy yeah I I did a whole uh video on the
48:24Bagdad battery I did two videos on the
48:25Bagdad battery because great example of
48:28I didn't have all of the information
48:30that is available on the Bagdad battery
48:31so to to surmise that um I don't know if
48:34this is the exact one that you're
48:35thinking of but is probably the most
48:36commonly cited is this artifact uh that
48:39was a a clay jar that had um a bitamin
48:43like kind of tar cap on it and you know
48:46some metal sticking through and evidence
48:48of like a residue of some kind of acid
48:49and so that's what you need to make a
48:51battery generate a small electric
48:53current um and so uh you know there's
48:56that was used and extrapolated upon as
48:58evidence of like you know ancient people
49:01used electricity which like whether or
49:03not it produced electricity ancient
49:05people did not use electricity like we
49:06would have evidence of wires and no it
49:08wasn't you know Nica Tesla and he was
49:10like beaming you know energy between
49:12batteries to the top of the pyramid like
49:13wasn't [ __ ] like that like we would have
49:15more evidence if they did use it um but
49:17that was actually a really interesting
49:18one to look at because um what ended up
49:21you know what I kind of ended up coming
49:22to is I I made my whole first video on
49:23it of like you know there isn't very
49:25much evidence that it was a a battery um
49:27and uh Dr Brad Hafford of the Pen Museum
49:30who is a neare East archaeologist has
49:32worked you know around this site and has
49:34access to a lot more resources than I
49:35did did a whole response video of It
49:37kind of adding to what I had already
49:38said correcting some of the things that
49:40I got wrong and it was great and I did
49:42my you know a video back with him um and
49:45the conclusion we kind of came to is
49:46like there is a chance that it was used
49:48to generate an electric current and like
49:50there's a chance it's not like huge we
49:53don't exactly know and if it was used to
49:54generate an electric current it was more
49:55of like a novelty kind of thing um it
49:57would either have been used uh to like
49:59electroplate things like if it generated
50:01a small current you could put that into
50:02a bath with you know dissolved metals
50:04and it could like plate stuff or like
50:06you know for Ceremony where you put it
50:07into like a you know a statue it'll
50:09conduct a little metal and when you
50:10touch it it goes woo but like it was
50:12probably more that than like you know
50:14people then like I said extrapolate so
50:16they'll see that here there's a chance
50:17it generated electric like electrical
50:19current and ancient people used
50:20electricity which like absolutely not
50:22like the answer is probably somewhere in
50:23the middle but probably a little closer
50:25down here we're like if it was that's
50:27great and technically I guess ancient
50:28people did generate electricity but it
50:30wasn't for like widespread electrical
50:32use yeah I wish that people would um
50:35something that you mentioned and you
50:36guys have done this a couple times now
50:38um one thing that when people think of
50:41uh they'll find a little fact and then
50:43they'll start to fill in like oh my God
50:44like when I you know I I went there
50:46yesterday and I saw like a little speck
50:47of red paint I bet this whole room used
50:49to be r or something and um you just did
50:52it now where you said if there would
50:54have been a battery we would have seen
50:56why fires we would have seen other
50:57things you said uh there's a global
50:59civilization of Atlantis where the are
51:01their ships how do they move things
51:02right sometimes I wish people instead of
51:04finding like one or two things that are
51:05maybe difficult to explain cuz again
51:07right I think we've in both of our talks
51:09said there like some things are peculiar
51:10some things are weird sometimes reality
51:11Stranger Than Fiction um I wish that
51:14people would ask more questions like
51:15okay well if this was the case um
51:17wouldn't we expect to see like all of
51:19this other stuff too like if like is it
51:22really the fact that somebody invented
51:24One battery that was useful for electric
51:26just like one guy you know the Egyptian
51:29Tesla guy just stayed in his house all
51:31day and did nothing with it or like yeah
51:33um yeah I wish people would yeah there
51:35be other stuff to support the existence
51:37of this particular thing there's no
51:38Nuance to it it's like if a then just
51:40take it as far as you possibly can I
51:42feel like it's the most important
51:43question actually that you posed to
51:44Graham Hancock you're talking
51:46specifically about that little mile long
51:48like coastal region where you have tons
51:50of evidence of Hunter tribes and it's
51:52like if there was an Ice Age civilized
51:56like develop
51:58civilization and Graham's like I didn't
52:00say that we wouldn't find Hunter gather
52:01and it's like if we can find that why
52:03wouldn't we find this developed
52:05civilization which would have more
52:07monuments more technology more things
52:09that would last these losers running
52:11around with stone TI arrows we're
52:13finding all the stuff of them but the
52:15massive civilization these guys couldn't
52:16make anything that
52:19could and and what they do is they sell
52:21this idea mean pseudo scientist they
52:23sell this idea that you know we're just
52:25going to discover something new soon and
52:27we always discover something new I'm not
52:29denying that that's why we continue
52:31doing Archaeology is to add to our
52:33understanding of the past but we never
52:35discover something that's like holy [ __ ]
52:37now everything about human history has
52:39changed and it's like people say that
52:41about gocke and it's like that did not
52:43do that we already had Monumental
52:45architecture from that period at Jericho
52:47and T Sultan we already had a teepell
52:49site at neev chori but nobody thinks
52:52about this stuff they they they instead
52:54get this narrative that just sort of IGN
52:57that where it says who knows what
52:59archaeologist might find next that gives
53:01you the right to imagine anything and
53:03it's like no that does not give you
53:05theing right to imagine anything I'm
53:07sorry but there's a lot of knowledge
53:08that we do have one of my phrases that I
53:10always use is archaeologists always work
53:12from the known to the unknown so this
53:14this takes place when you excavate when
53:16you excavate and you come down on a new
53:18layer of sediment right so a new sort of
53:20period of time is in that layer of
53:22sediment what you do is you've started
53:23exposing it over here in the trench and
53:25you continue exposing across the trench
53:27you don't just jump over to the other
53:29side of the trench and start digging
53:30willy-nilly you work from the known to
53:32the unknown same thing if you find a
53:34block of a wall same thing if you're
53:35trying to put together a culture you
53:37take what you know and then you move on
53:39from that to build hypotheses about what
53:42you don't know you don't just start with
53:44the unknown yeah like when talking about
53:47like when somebody says they don't
53:48understand how a thing works when an
53:49expert says it there's a different
53:50context there like they they're it's
53:52bounded like very heavily bounded you
53:55walk into somebody's house they're like
53:56oh do you know like where do you know
53:58where like Sam the cat is and you're
53:59like oh I'm not sure where they are
54:00right now oh so they could be in Mars
54:03dude yeah they could be on mars or they
54:05could be in Britain or they could be
54:07well no mother they're probably in the
54:09house somewhere what do you what do you
54:10mean probably in the house like in the
54:12like in the like in the walls like well
54:15no probably on the floor somewhere maybe
54:18so do you know where they okay I'm Jesus
54:20you know what's really funny have you
54:21ever noticed when you can't find your
54:22keys right we looking around yest and
54:26always oh damn yeah I know he I was
54:29thinking about it and then he used it
54:30and I was like damn it I was thinking of
54:31that and now you were tter J Christ it
54:35is it's in the last place you look and
54:37and we talked about this I don't know if
54:38you guys covered this in your discussion
54:39but like we talked a little bit about
54:41the idea of like the Paradigm Shift
54:43which is something that a lot of the alt
54:45history pseudo archaeology crowd cling
54:46to a lot which is this idea that like
54:48they're going to make the discovery that
54:50changes everything and like that just
54:52doesn't happen like it'll change stuff
54:54within a field like you know I mentioned
54:56Graham Hancock's shirt of like things
54:58just keep getting older it's like yeah
54:59no [ __ ] no one is arguing
55:01with that's just cuz headlines focus on
55:03the oldest
55:05[ __ ] to say Paradigm Shift they just me
55:07like oh we've got a new way to look at a
55:08thing but we're not throwing everything
55:10else out
55:12Happ and on that I want to be very clear
55:14things do not always get older sometimes
55:16things get younger so like the
55:18domestication of the chicken we now know
55:20happens like thousands of years later
55:22than we used to think you all kinds of
55:24stuff gets younger the all all sorts of
55:26dating in the Mediterranean due to the
55:28eruption of sanini and the burial of
55:30actii that's now dated a couple hundred
55:33years later the start of red figure
55:35Pottery is now dated like 100 Year 50
55:38years later there's all kinds of things
55:40that get younger too it just doesn't
55:41make the headline it's like that little
55:43plus minus bar error you know error bars
55:45when you have some you know piece of
55:46data where it's like it's here but like
55:48there's always a little room to kind of
55:49swing it like things will like you said
55:51like I I think I even you know kind of
55:53fell into that trap yesterday when I was
55:54talking about Quebec Lee of being like
55:55yeah push back how you know long things
55:57have been around but like you said like
55:59we had sites that dated to that point
56:01already and like yeah that may have like
56:03changed it or altered it and that
56:04doesn't change how you know there could
56:06still be sites discovered around there
56:07that are going to be older than that but
56:09like you know it's not something that
56:10suddenly like wow they found gocke
56:13everything we know about archaeology the
56:16whole field is suddenly just like that
56:18was all wrong like no that is not how
56:20that works that just developed our
56:21understanding of that region that
56:23Civilization that culture the crops
56:25around there the way that people
56:27interacted with each other it just
56:28refined it further you know have you did
56:30I brought this up in our talk with him
56:31yesterday have you heard of Isaac as's
56:33little short story about or little essay
56:35about how flat earthers aren't wrong
56:38well actually that's something I like to
56:39bring up sometimes too I've never read
56:40the essay but like on a local basis of
56:43course the the Earth is flat we work
56:45that way when I map out an
56:46archaeological site I work on a grid
56:48that's flat you know what I mean and so
56:51it's only when I fly between you know
56:53the UK and here where they need to
56:55calculate the curvature of the Earth
56:57because it's on such a large scale right
56:59and so but on a local scale of course
57:01the Earth is flat okay that's
57:02essentially what the is about yeah like
57:04Flat Earth is it's a it's an intelligent
57:06extrapolation of the planet because it's
57:08it's more intelligent than thinking it's
57:10random but like the curvature of the
57:11earth is so slight that they're very
57:13close um and I feel like that applies to
57:15a lot of things even Paradigm shifting
57:16things like the idea that the Earth is
57:18the center of the universe you're
57:20already really far ahead of people that
57:21don't think that space exists you're
57:23really far ahead of people that think
57:24that we live in a dome right and the
57:25math is really complicated to make it
57:27work but but the guy that thought that
57:28the Earth was the center of the universe
57:30is more correct than the guy that thinks
57:31that there is no space at all but less
57:32correct than was a Galileo who's the one
57:35that figured out that the sun was the G
57:37okay sure okay yeah you guys sh on yeah
57:39yeah yeah he's obviously more
57:41correct dude but uh no and I think
57:44that's really important because also I I
57:45want to be clear archaeologists and
57:47historians are constantly rewriting
57:48history as well that's like what we do
57:51right we change the narrative but it's
57:53like a it's like a local contextual
57:56narrative the discovery of gocke did
57:58change history of that local region and
58:00culture my study of animal bones from
58:02this site right here nioria changed
58:05everybody's picture of what the Greeks
58:06were eating at that time they weren't
58:07feasting on meat they were actually
58:09impoverished and eating very little meat
58:11and so you know that changes that
58:13picture but it's you know that's that's
58:14super interesting to archaeologists but
58:16it's not like holy [ __ ] we Now
58:18understand that human history has
58:20changed in a big way like no screw that
58:23and that's the thing that I think is
58:24really interesting and is kind of you
58:25know the telltale signs of
58:27pseudoarchaeology is that they talk
58:28about like archaeology as a whole like
58:31Archaeology is the study of just like
58:33the entire planet of people like you
58:35know as one group which like it isn't I
58:37used the example yesterday talking about
58:39um you know the the pollen you know
58:41samples from Lakes like if some big
58:43Discovery was made there it's like well
58:45it turns out spruce trees entered you
58:47know Maine
58:48about 70 years before we previously
58:52thought this changes that like okay that
58:55doesn't change you know about it or like
58:57we found an arrowhead at this site you
58:58know that was dated you know to another
59:01200 years before we you know the other
59:03one was and it's like okay that changes
59:05that like they are speaking in absolutes
59:07about the way that human history has
59:09worked on a global scale which it just
59:10didn't it was Regional one of the things
59:13um it might have been in our talk or it
59:14might have been our like is that we
59:16talked about how to protect against like
59:17misinformation and one of the things
59:18that I bring up is that for some Fields
59:20just it's it sucks but there's no
59:22shortcut to reading and developing like
59:23the vocabulary of the field and once you
59:26have like some kind of working
59:27vocabulary it becomes very quick and
59:28easy to pick out like who's full of [ __ ]
59:31sometimes because people will make a
59:32claim and they don't realize like how
59:36insane the claim they're making is um
59:38for anything related to physics anytime
59:39somebody talks about a particular thing
59:41it's like oh they found this thing and
59:42and it's faster than light like anytime
59:44you hear somebody say that if you have
59:45any familiarity with physics like this
59:47is a claim that if it was made this is
59:49groundbreaking this is some this would
59:51be the larg every single person on the
59:53planet will be talking about this this
59:54wouldn't just be a random thing um I
59:56used to bring this up all the time and
59:58I've been Vindicated um that there is no
1:00:00such thing as a drug that will help you
1:00:03lose weight that's been like that's like
1:00:05being marketed somewhere because it is
1:00:07impossible it is inconceivable that a
1:00:09weight loss drug would exist like that
1:00:11because if it did every motherucker on
1:00:13the planet would be talking about it and
1:00:14taking it and now it's happen What well
1:00:16now it's happened with OIC and now that
1:00:18out everybody take it yeah and it's the
1:00:20same thing with like penis enlargement
1:00:21pills right that like if a dick
1:00:23enlargement pill existed it's not a
1:00:24secret every single person on the planet
1:00:26would know about this thing existing um
1:00:29yeah sometimes people make these claims
1:00:30and it's like I don't think you realize
1:00:32what you're saying like oh we found this
1:00:34guy and he had a farm 100,000 years ago
1:00:36it's crazy like that's a you do you
1:00:38understand that like the claim you're
1:00:39making that's a really a huge claim yeah
1:00:43the reason why it's successful is what
1:00:44uh Steph hher she's at the University of
1:00:46Alberta and she talks about pseudo
1:00:47archaeology and stuff like that it's
1:00:48called stigmatized knowledge and the
1:00:50idea is is these kind of claims are
1:00:52basically saying they're keeping it
1:00:54secret from you or something like that
1:00:56there's some reason why people aren
1:00:57talking about it yeah it's forgotten
1:01:01there's different kinds of it as well
1:01:02and so that's the kind of rhetoric that
1:01:05they pull and it sounds logical because
1:01:08you're hearing this and you're like oh
1:01:09yeah you know I don't like politicians
1:01:11and so therefore Archaeology is funded
1:01:13by politics so therefore da D and
1:01:16there's like this progression of logic
1:01:18that sort of people get you know
1:01:20enamored in but yeah you need to be able
1:01:22to step back and say you know that
1:01:24really just does not make sense it's
1:01:26like this this new thing about olive
1:01:27trees being planted on GOC teepe and
1:01:29it's like dude almost every single site
1:01:32in the Mediterranean has olive trees
1:01:34planted on it that's just how it is we
1:01:36find sites in the middle of olive Groves
1:01:39Farmers plant olive trees I've had to
1:01:42dig around olive trees I've had to cut
1:01:43roots and deal with it that that's
1:01:45normal what is the I I haven't looked in
1:01:48the whole olive tree thing kind of came
1:01:49up in like the last little bit of my
1:01:51vacation and me coming down here so I
1:01:52haven't actually like I don't really
1:01:53know anything about it yet what is the
1:01:55deal with that is it that like they're
1:01:57planting olive trees to prevent sites
1:01:59from being like I don't know what the
1:02:00conspiracy the conspiracy is is that it
1:02:02started in June um uh and and and that
1:02:06they they want to not excavate gobec
1:02:08teepe because they want to hide our
1:02:10prehistory from us of course is the
1:02:11argument and that's like the really old
1:02:13fancy pillar and like yeah where that
1:02:16again huh is this in Turkey in Turkey
1:02:18Turkey yeah and so the idea is is that
1:02:20they planted the olive trees on it and
1:02:23they're not Excavating it in fact they
1:02:24talk about how it's it's only 5%
1:02:26excavated and there's no plans to
1:02:28excavate the whole site in our lifetime
1:02:30and parts of it have been reburied and
1:02:32they're doing all this to hide stuff
1:02:35from us and it's just like not just to
1:02:37let technology get wait a second dudes a
1:02:40those olive trees were planted by the
1:02:41farmer who owned the land because he
1:02:42knew that the land was going to be
1:02:44expropriated by the Turkish government
1:02:45and if it's land with olive trees on it
1:02:47it means more money so all right that's
1:02:50a logical thing and to be honest that
1:02:52happens all the time with archaeology
1:02:54people know they have to sell land they
1:02:56try to do something to make it
1:02:57classified as a different kind of land
1:03:00so that it's worth more because in a lot
1:03:01of countries you the government has to
1:03:03buy the land before you can excavate and
1:03:05if you're a foreign project you need to
1:03:06raise the money to buy the land give it
1:03:09to the government so that you can then
1:03:10get permission to excavated this is
1:03:12really common all over the Mediterranean
1:03:14world right and so that's the first bit
1:03:16that's why the olive trees are there oh
1:03:18God there's more Jesus Christ they claim
1:03:20that it's being reburied but look every
1:03:23most sites I've worked on not every
1:03:24single one most sites you excavate and
1:03:26you reberry after you're done Excavating
1:03:28it's called back filling and the reason
1:03:30why is as soon as you excavate something
1:03:31and expose it to the environment it
1:03:33starts deteriorating so if you don't
1:03:35have a million dollar budget to actually
1:03:37conserve it and present it and manage it
1:03:39for the indefinitely cuz that's what it
1:03:41takes is indefinite management then the
1:03:44only way to preserve what you just
1:03:45excavated is to reberry it cuz otherwise
1:03:48that site's going to be gone in 50 years
1:03:50and I've gone to sites that were
1:03:51excavated you know 100 years ago and
1:03:53what you do is you try to look for the
1:03:54site it's just gone completely
1:03:57disappeared because nobody bothered to
1:03:59backfill it or reberry it or conserve it
1:04:01and so there's no like conspiracy here
1:04:04and and by the way they're Excavating
1:04:06right now right this moment at gocke
1:04:08what it's just that the the excavation
1:04:10season had not started yet that early in
1:04:13the summer they're literally Excavating
1:04:15on my YouTube I I interviewed the
1:04:17director of the project so that we could
1:04:18address some of these claims and
1:04:21actually you know talk about all the new
1:04:23cool finds that they have and it's just
1:04:25like this idea we don't want to excavate
1:04:27we want to hide this stuff no we're
1:04:29there giving away our information for
1:04:30free on YouTube you know sharing this
1:04:32stuff for as far and wide as we can and
1:04:35explaining this stuff and yeah but this
1:04:37conspiracy is still going that is crazy
1:04:40I feel like I'm not sure if it's maybe
1:04:42like our our like penchant for the
1:04:44individual like narrative but it feels
1:04:45like a lot of people are very averse to
1:04:47the concept of standing on the shoulders
1:04:48of giants like it's I remember like when
1:04:52I was developing my undergrad thesis or
1:04:54whatever um and I was that like very
1:04:56silly young like research girl who was
1:04:58like I'm going to like make this like
1:05:00crazy research study and my prop was
1:05:02like actually do a lit review see what's
1:05:04interesting and change like two factors
1:05:07and then go from there right which is
1:05:09what I did and then I got an excellent
1:05:11thesis out of it right that like led to
1:05:12a whole bunch of other really really
1:05:13cool opportunities um but the issue is
1:05:16like it feels like people are so often
1:05:18like they want to like be they want to
1:05:20be like the anime protagonist character
1:05:22that digs deep and everything is just
1:05:24about them and they like kind of like
1:05:26change the whole world sing handedly
1:05:28yeah that that like that just doesn't
1:05:30really like happen there are like these
1:05:32like great figures in history that do
1:05:34kind of like change the world a a lot of
1:05:35times are mythologized even like modern
1:05:37historical figures get mythologized to
1:05:39some degree but also even those
1:05:42characters and individuals they're still
1:05:44standing on the shoulders of giants they
1:05:46still like wouldn't like you know
1:05:48Alexander wouldn't the great wouldn't
1:05:49have existed if he didn't have like all
1:05:51the other nameless people that we don't
1:05:53really know about supporting him
1:05:54tutoring him educating him supporting
1:05:56him um and they're all named actually
1:05:59Aristotle was his tutor yeah you like we
1:06:02know his generals and stuff like that we
1:06:04actually know that kind of stuff and
1:06:05yeah if you want to accomplish something
1:06:07really valuable for society
1:06:09uhoh if you want to accomplish something
1:06:12really valuable for society you need to
1:06:13work within Society to do that it's
1:06:15about that teamwork in a sense right and
1:06:18it's about managing that team if that's
1:06:20the case how do you explain what Tony
1:06:23Stark built in a cave with just a box of
1:06:25scraps
1:06:26just a box of scraps damn you got me man
1:06:30you touched on this earlier I had a
1:06:31history PhD email me this a long time
1:06:33ago so I'm curious what your thoughts
1:06:35are on History being written by The
1:06:38Victors what do you think about that
1:06:40statement wow I mean I think in a
1:06:43general sense I think I agree with it I
1:06:45don't think I've I've really ever sat
1:06:46down to like analyze it as it seems like
1:06:48we're about to right now so I don't know
1:06:50I'm I'm going to let Flint kick this one
1:06:52off I hav really thought about it I
1:06:54actually a really good example of that
1:06:55so to a certain degree Archaeology is
1:06:57also written by The Victors most of what
1:06:59we find and is visible in the
1:07:01archaeological record is the the stuff
1:07:04of the elites their Monumental tombs
1:07:06their palaces that's so much easier to
1:07:08find than some little tiny Farmhouse
1:07:10right and so the the the victors are far
1:07:13more visible and they're far more
1:07:14represented in the archaeological record
1:07:17in what's in museums in what's we write
1:07:19about and like I said yesterday we're
1:07:21actually trying to find a way to push
1:07:23back against that that's why people are
1:07:24studying an bones that's why we study
1:07:26sediments that's why we're trying to
1:07:28look at sort of ordinary people this
1:07:29subaltern approach but a really good
1:07:31example of how that impacts the field
1:07:34and leads us sometimes in a wrong
1:07:36direction is with the topic of Roman
1:07:38slavery so in the Roman period you know
1:07:41they had they had a lot of slaves right
1:07:42there were a lot of enslaved people um
1:07:44that were conquered or Born Into Slavery
1:07:46and subjugated or whatever and it was a
1:07:48it was a real part of their society and
1:07:50but their their slaver slavery in the
1:07:52Roman period is a lot different from
1:07:53slavery in the 19th America right so at
1:07:57the same time a lot of enslaved people
1:07:59were freed they were granted freedom by
1:08:02their owners if they did a good job for
1:08:04a long time or maybe when it was really
1:08:06common when the owner when the slave
1:08:08holder died in their will they would
1:08:11Grant freedom to a large number of their
1:08:13slaves and so it's called manumission
1:08:15and this is really really visible in the
1:08:17archaeological record because all these
1:08:19manumitted slaves they would they were
1:08:21really proud of it and they it's on
1:08:22their Tombstone if they direct sort of
1:08:24monuments to it it would be recorded in
1:08:27text and stuff like that but the people
1:08:28who aren't recorded are the people who
1:08:30are not manumitted and so there's this
1:08:32perspective that really pervaded in in
1:08:34the study of Roman history for a long
1:08:36time that slavery there was not as bad
1:08:39because a lot of people were freed but
1:08:41the thing is is we have such a biased
1:08:43picture of it because what we see is all
1:08:45these inscriptions and tombs and
1:08:47gravestones and things like that of the
1:08:49people that are freed the people that
1:08:51were not freed the only time we see them
1:08:53is like for example in Pompei where they
1:08:55all died in and they're still Shackled
1:08:56up in their Farmhouse and and we see
1:08:59that when we excavate that Farmhouse
1:09:00outside of Pompei because it was buried
1:09:02in Ash and so you know the actual the
1:09:05the poor enslaved people who remained
1:09:07enslaved they're lost to history in the
1:09:09in in a way that the freed people were
1:09:11not and so now we're coming to grips
1:09:13with that and saying wow Roman slavery
1:09:15really was not that good it sucked we
1:09:18Now understand how abused these people
1:09:20were who were enslaved if you see what I
1:09:22mean and it all has to do with the way
1:09:24that history gets recorded and brought
1:09:25down to us okay yeah I you took it in a
1:09:28slightly different way in terms of the
1:09:30type of History that's available but I
1:09:31think in a roundabout way maybe you
1:09:32agree with the email though he he hated
1:09:34that perspective that history was
1:09:36written by The Victors and his point was
1:09:37history is written by historians that at
1:09:39least in democracies that um it's not
1:09:41the case that like just a leader will
1:09:43say this is what happened historically
1:09:44it's the establishment of historians
1:09:47engaged in historiography and historical
1:09:48practice that decide ultimately like
1:09:50what gets recorded and what um you know
1:09:53like how the interpretations and
1:09:54everything are done and that that phrase
1:09:55of history is written by The Victors he
1:09:57hated it because I guess it gave the
1:09:58impression that uh you know well since
1:10:00we won these wars now everything that we
1:10:02say is forever tainted and biased and
1:10:04it's incapable of ever like portraying
1:10:07anything in reality um I I think that's
1:10:09kind of just boiling it down a little
1:10:10bit more to the some of its parts though
1:10:12where it's like yeah of course history
1:10:13is written by historians but those
1:10:15historians are the victors like they're
1:10:16the historians of whoever pervaded and
1:10:19whoever kind of came out on top you know
1:10:21sure but I think it's trying to separate
1:10:22out the idea that when you say history
1:10:23is written by The Victors the impr
1:10:25question that's brought to mind is that
1:10:27the goal then is to just make your
1:10:30Society your culture look as good as
1:10:32possible detriment of anything else that
1:10:34exist I don't know that's always a
1:10:36conscious goal but it certainly can be
1:10:37an unconscious goal can be for sure and
1:10:39here's an example of a loser W in
1:10:41history is pus he's the one who wrote
1:10:43about the the wars between Rome and
1:10:44Carthage right and he was actually an
1:10:46enslaved Greek who who was enslaved due
1:10:49to the fact that his his City State lost
1:10:51in war to Rome but he became kind of
1:10:53this kiss up historian who who kissed up
1:10:55to the Romans and everything like that
1:10:56and recorded them as being glorious and
1:10:58great and so you know it's sort of like
1:11:01it look everything that's written down
1:11:03even what's not written down our
1:11:05material culture that we have is all
1:11:07very biased and we need to pick apart
1:11:09those kind of contexts and biases anyway
1:11:12and so I think it's not just to cut and
1:11:13dry Victor's losers it's just rep
1:11:16recognizing the biases that are there
1:11:18and trying to understand them yeah um
1:11:21just on something you said I hate the
1:11:23term slavery uh because it's so there
1:11:25are so many different types it's very
1:11:26annoying that it all gets lumped
1:11:27together as the same thing um yeah just
1:11:30I just wanted to throw that out there um
1:11:33the what do you think right now so
1:11:36obviously even in In Our Lifetime there
1:11:38have been it sounds like there have been
1:11:39major changes in archaeological practice
1:11:42uh whether you're talking about
1:11:43backfilling whether you're talking about
1:11:45ideas around repatriation do you think
1:11:47there's something that exists right now
1:11:48in archaeology that in the next like 50
1:11:50years you think we're probably going to
1:11:52do this a lot different or this practice
1:11:53is probably like up for reconsideration
1:11:56or
1:11:57something I think the toolbox will just
1:11:59kind of get better like I don't I can't
1:12:01think at least off the top of my head of
1:12:02a particular thing that we will do
1:12:04totally differently I'm sure Flint will
1:12:06probably you know maybe think of
1:12:07something oh on the on the toolbox thing
1:12:09you guys talk about how you might not
1:12:11excavate a site fully because you're
1:12:12waiting potentially for new technology
1:12:14that's kind of where I'm going with that
1:12:15is like there may be just better
1:12:16technology in the future that will allow
1:12:18us to do those things like backfill is
1:12:20an example where like you know backfill
1:12:21wasn't always done it's done now I don't
1:12:23see a reason why that would change but
1:12:24like you know we will have better
1:12:26technology in the future that like maybe
1:12:27we will you know excavate more be able
1:12:29to go back to places that have been
1:12:30backfilled and like be able to you know
1:12:32Garner more information from it and
1:12:33stuff like that you know if we can look
1:12:35at different isotopes in the soil or you
1:12:37know I'm throwing out kind of random
1:12:38examples but I I think that it'll be
1:12:39more of sort of a um you know narrowing
1:12:42down what we are able to do with the
1:12:44sites that we have um I don't know do
1:12:46you think there' be like a change in
1:12:47like practice as a whole though
1:12:49repatriation I bet there'll be more
1:12:51there's going to be more repatriation
1:12:52yeah I I think there's a few things in a
1:12:54sense I mean so there's this idea
1:12:56because we now have this remote sensing
1:12:58ability to look underground that we
1:12:59don't have to excavate sites and I want
1:13:01to be very clear that is not true we
1:13:03absolutely have to excavate sites
1:13:05because we actually analyze the
1:13:06materials that we find right we cannot
1:13:08do isotope or DNA analysis without
1:13:11actually collecting samples and so what
1:13:13that means is archaeology is slowly
1:13:15becoming more and more less about what
1:13:18what the public thinks of as excavation
1:13:21and more about sampling how do we
1:13:23properly sample something and that
1:13:25actually ties into how do you understand
1:13:27old excavations right because what you
1:13:29often try to try to do is all right
1:13:31August ma excavated Pompei this insula
1:13:34in the 19th century we're going to go in
1:13:36there and we're going to open up a
1:13:38window that samples stuff with new
1:13:40methods that helps us reinterpret his
1:13:42excavations even and so that's where
1:13:44we're becoming more and more
1:13:45sophisticated is uh analyzing the
1:13:48previous things a lot of a lot of
1:13:49Scholars say that archaeology the future
1:13:52will be Excavating our stor rooms cuz we
1:13:54have so many material in store rooms
1:13:56that have not been studied in up to-date
1:13:58ways or even not studied at all because
1:13:59people were clearing stuff so fast so
1:14:02many artifacts were recovered that
1:14:04people didn't even study them and in
1:14:06some cases they just threw them out
1:14:07because they didn't realize people would
1:14:08care about animal bones or plain wear
1:14:11Pottery or the dirt itself and the
1:14:13what's in the dirt that tells us a lot
1:14:14about has all
1:14:16been I I think we're slowing down how we
1:14:19excavate we have been for a while we're
1:14:20going to continue to slow down and I
1:14:22think the real key is is we're always
1:14:24going to come up with different sampling
1:14:25procedures and it's always about what's
1:14:27your question about that specific
1:14:28context and therefore what's your
1:14:30sampling methods for that specific
1:14:32context and so I don't always want to
1:14:33say that we leave stuff behind because
1:14:35of new technologies we sometimes leave
1:14:37stuff behind because we'd excavated it
1:14:39in a different way so like when you're
1:14:40Excavating even today if you're
1:14:42Excavating say a room and you do your
1:14:44goal is to excavate the whole room to
1:14:46understand what's going on there really
1:14:49commonly not everybody excavates this
1:14:51way there's different ways to excavate
1:14:52but one common way to do it is to
1:14:53excavate half the room first first or a
1:14:55portion of it you get a window through
1:14:57the different layers that exist which
1:14:59then lets you develop a hypothesis that
1:15:01you can test by Excavating the rest of
1:15:03the room does that make sense and so
1:15:05that's actually really important that's
1:15:06part of why we do that because like I
1:15:08said yesterday it's this it's this uh
1:15:10negotiation between the fact that
1:15:11Archaeology is deductive and inductive
1:15:14and so we need to deal with the fact
1:15:15that we recover material but then we
1:15:17want to approach it in a deductive way
1:15:19and that's why you then leave material
1:15:21to excavate again if you see what I mean
1:15:23it feels like that that um feels a long
1:15:25time ago like Sciences I think I might
1:15:27be making this up maybe I'm repeating
1:15:28pseudo science like I think everything
1:15:30was just like philosophy and then
1:15:31eventually uh people started to Branch
1:15:33more narrowly and more uh specialized
1:15:36into kind of different fields to do
1:15:37investigations and then now it feels
1:15:39like uh things are branching out again
1:15:41where every field is starting to borrow
1:15:43from every other field wherefore you
1:15:45know like psychology and Medicine uh and
1:15:47like uh neurobiology like all of these
1:15:49things are starting to borrow and mix
1:15:50and it sounds like for archaeology like
1:15:53it's starting to borrow from other
1:15:54disciplines too you might want people
1:15:55with other types of specializations also
1:15:57to have some input on how you excavate a
1:15:58site or how you evaluate a thing or is
1:16:01archaeology an industry specifically
1:16:03that's kind of always been a little bit
1:16:04more interdisciplinary yeah it's that
1:16:06one so we've always in fact it's one of
1:16:08the things I'm teaching archaological
1:16:09Theory this year and like one of the key
1:16:11things that you teach students is look
1:16:14most of what we do comes from other
1:16:15fields you know like when the way we
1:16:17excavate comes from geology thinking
1:16:18about Str strata and the way things are
1:16:20deposited understanding construction
1:16:22comes from architecture and engineering
1:16:25carbon dating carbon dating comes from
1:16:27physics and chemistry I do organic
1:16:29chemistry on stuff and biology and
1:16:30anatomy and it's really always been that
1:16:32way then now that said there still is a
1:16:35coherent body of archaeological Theory
1:16:37it's why you can't just be a chemist and
1:16:39start doing archaeology because you
1:16:41don't understand the context in which we
1:16:43interpret evidence and so you know they
1:16:46there there's a very coherent body of
1:16:48archaeological theory that often times
1:16:50but mostly comes from understanding the
1:16:52history of the field and how it
1:16:53developed and how we ask question and
1:16:55answer questions from this kind of
1:16:57evidence that doesn't speak we're the
1:16:59ones that make you know that make words
1:17:02from this kind of evidence and so would
1:17:04you say that's kind of like one of the
1:17:07uh maybe like the epistemic axioms of
1:17:08the field so like psychology one of the
1:17:10like Central ways that we understand
1:17:12psychology versus sociology is we look
1:17:14at the individual out right like we're
1:17:16concerned with the individual and then
1:17:19psychology might build out from there
1:17:20but we focus here where sociology tends
1:17:22to start at Society in large group
1:17:25levels and they work down towards the
1:17:27individual what would you say is like
1:17:28kind of the epistemic system or way of
1:17:31thinking in
1:17:32archaeology I mean we do both of those
1:17:34for sure meaning we we we sometimes
1:17:36focus on the individual like when we
1:17:38have an individual burial or something
1:17:40like that or we will you know do DNA
1:17:42testing we can do isotope testing to see
1:17:44if that individual migrated we could
1:17:46understand their diet but then once
1:17:48we've done that on hundreds of
1:17:49individuals from these cultures we can
1:17:50start putting together a sociological
1:17:52look and those kind of Big Data patterns
1:17:54and so uh but I do think that the main
1:17:57epistemic sort of way of looking at the
1:18:00archaeological record is understanding
1:18:02deeply the context in which it's
1:18:03embedded and and the context by the way
1:18:06is a really tricky term especially to
1:18:07teach students and the reason why is
1:18:10because we we think of context in two
1:18:12different ways one is the physical
1:18:14context it came from that specific layer
1:18:17we need to understand that specific
1:18:18layer I've talked about dogna or
1:18:20different kinds of things that could
1:18:21bias what comes from a specific layer so
1:18:24we need to understand the physical
1:18:25context really really closely but at the
1:18:28same time you have to understand that
1:18:29these artifacts have a social context
1:18:31that they existed in in the past and so
1:18:33we need to then interpret them within
1:18:35our understanding of the larger social
1:18:37context within which they existed and so
1:18:40the the context really is the main key
1:18:43and how we define context of course is
1:18:45going to vary based on the questions we
1:18:47ask but we need to be aware of the
1:18:49different ways that are appropriate for
1:18:50defining context an example that I think
1:18:52is really funny that I I don't know how
1:18:54wide spread this was I remember reading
1:18:56something about it you know recently but
1:18:57you know fact check were necessary but
1:18:59there was I believe it was an excavation
1:19:00being done somewhere in uh Latin America
1:19:03and they were finding these homes and
1:19:05the homes all had like knives that were
1:19:08put on like top of doorways or on top of
1:19:10Windows and stuff like that and everyone
1:19:11was trying to figure out like why the
1:19:12hell are there knives up here was this
1:19:13like a ceremonial thing was this like
1:19:15some sort of superstition or something
1:19:17and there was a woman on the Dig who was
1:19:18a mother and she was like no they were
1:19:20doing that to keep the knives away from
1:19:22the like children like you can't just
1:19:23leave that on the ground someone's going
1:19:24to get hurt so like they were probably
1:19:26putting it up there for safekeeping so
1:19:27someone doesn't get hurt with it so like
1:19:28little things like that where that is
1:19:30also you know an artifact context both
1:19:32socially and physically and that's
1:19:34something I try and talk about a lot in
1:19:35my videos cuz it really is it's a thing
1:19:37you learn in your anent 101 class like
1:19:39you're talking about here where it's
1:19:40like it's really important to drill that
1:19:41into your head that like if I gave you
1:19:43that knife in a box and I told you to
1:19:46tell me about it you'd be like I don't
1:19:47know it's a knife it's made of this
1:19:49material it's this big looks pretty old
1:19:51but like other than that you can't tell
1:19:52me much if you saw it where it was you
1:19:55know is it above a doorway is it buried
1:19:56in the ground is it with a skeleton is
1:19:58it next to the skeleton is there damage
1:19:59to the skeleton like you'd be able to
1:20:01tell so much more about it so that's why
1:20:03and and Flynn I'm really glad you
1:20:04brought this up is that I think a big
1:20:07change that we'll probably see in
1:20:08archaeology and is something that's
1:20:09ongoing is slowing down the excavations
1:20:11like when we talk about like only 5% of
1:20:13gobec teepe is is uh you know excavated
1:20:16we need to demand that they excavate the
1:20:17rest it's like he no because we don't
1:20:19have the technology for it and B every
1:20:21grain of sand you pull out of that can
1:20:23tell you something so so you have to go
1:20:25through it painstakingly like you are
1:20:26going through these sites with a fine
1:20:28tooth comb every layer of soil every
1:20:30stone needs to be inspected in order to
1:20:32be able to gain as much information of
1:20:34it as from it as possible because once
1:20:36you move it the context has been
1:20:37destroyed so it's really important to be
1:20:39like overly methodical with this because
1:20:41you get one shot at having it in the
1:20:43context that it was originally in a
1:20:45crime scene exactly it's like a crime
1:20:46scene it's like a crime SC in our
1:20:47conversation I think we brought up um
1:20:49the the what is a woman thing or was
1:20:51that in our talk I don't think we
1:20:53brought it up at all I brought it was
1:20:55something it was one of you two you guys
1:20:56for but the um uh basically the idea
1:21:00that like when you begin like your your
1:21:01first pH raise into philosophy you kind
1:21:03of realize that there are a whole bunch
1:21:04of things that we kind of take for
1:21:05granted about like how things are and uh
1:21:09contexts are things that are almost
1:21:11impossible subjectively to divorce
1:21:13yourself from because you live in them
1:21:14so much um but but like even what you're
1:21:17talking about in terms of a knife like I
1:21:19could show you like a steak knife and
1:21:21you would see it and your immediate
1:21:23Association would be this is cutlery for
1:21:25f obviously and I could show you a blade
1:21:28that would be L effective at killing but
1:21:30it's got like a handle and you see like
1:21:32that's combat 100% why like it's not the
1:21:35utility is not is divorced here
1:21:37completely like one is obviously sharper
1:21:38and you could kill easily with it than
1:21:40the other one but like just because of
1:21:41the shapes associated with it and the
1:21:43virtue of like holding it in a
1:21:44particular way you would associate with
1:21:45combat um and that is taken for granted
1:21:48that 100 years from now or a thousand
1:21:49years from now somebody might see it and
1:21:51they might have a totally different mind
1:21:53like these people were Sav like every
1:21:55single household had a tool full of
1:21:57Weaponry for war and even like the
1:21:59children had plastic training weapons to
1:22:02use and it's like plastic guns yeah I
1:22:04read something that was so funny and so
1:22:06interesting it was the idea of I don't
1:22:08know I don't know who wrote this it
1:22:09might even just been a readit post I
1:22:11remember somebody just writing from like
1:22:12how horrifying it could be potentially
1:22:14for aliens to stumble upon humans and
1:22:17like all of the crazy things that we're
1:22:19capable of like incizors and teeth that
1:22:21can like tear into flesh but like grind
1:22:23it in the back
1:22:31us we like it's just like a normal thing
1:22:33we don't think and our natural defenses
1:22:35also kind of suck compared to other
1:22:37things you like our teeth it's like you
1:22:38know the only thing we really got going
1:22:40for us is this like we don't have big
1:22:42claws and we don't have like friends we
1:22:44have cool physical things we run a lotun
1:22:46a
1:22:47lot and running and stamina oh my God we
1:22:51will run your ass off a cliff posable
1:22:52thumbs are pretty coolable thumbs are
1:22:57yeah our arms are cool you build models
1:22:59for like one day you will appreciate the
1:23:01complexity of like human joints we're
1:23:02like oh my God we actually have so many
1:23:04different like points of flexibility and
1:23:05everything move all over the place we
1:23:07can climb trees we can throw
1:23:09things and um my girlfriend's dog is
1:23:12like you know like sub 25 lbs and like
1:23:15when you go to pick her up like you know
1:23:17she'll crumple a little bit but she's so
1:23:19like stiff like her little legs you know
1:23:21like they're all sticking out like this
1:23:22I'm like you don't like Bend like if you
1:23:24picked up you know a child yeah a cat
1:23:26they're just like you
1:23:28know so our flexibility is pretty good I
1:23:30guess one thing that that actually made
1:23:32me think of I was I was going to ask
1:23:33about it before which is like the the
1:23:34taken for granted but also one thing
1:23:36that I think a lot is probably a key
1:23:38part of context is like what what we
1:23:40don't write down like I think about you
1:23:42know what we like don't write down in
1:23:44modern worlds like we don't write down
1:23:46for example like how our kitchen have a
1:23:48whole bun like we there's so many things
1:23:50that we take for granted about like how
1:23:51things work in our world that are just
1:23:53like known fact and we have and what
1:23:57like the most literate Society that's
1:23:59ever existed in human history right and
1:24:01so like if you go back to even like an
1:24:03era where writing is just being
1:24:04developed or stuff how much less it
1:24:06makes me think of um you know like the
1:24:07sword fighting guys who try to Reen at
1:24:09FEMA or something like that where they
1:24:10reenact old style like night fight sword
1:24:14fighting there's an art to it do you
1:24:15know what it it's called FEMA hea or
1:24:18something like that okay you're supposed
1:24:19to counteract the idea that a long time
1:24:20ago people just walked around in these
1:24:22huge things of armor with swords and
1:24:25when in reality they were a lot more
1:24:27mobile and fible and probably a lot of
1:24:29that stuff was ceremonial and so that
1:24:30was sort of what I wanted to bring up is
1:24:32that there's this idea that there's like
1:24:34one interpretation of a building or a
1:24:36artifact right and and and and that's so
1:24:39there's a problem with that but some of
1:24:41it is also our bringing our own baggage
1:24:42to it so there's this site onr uh ayis
1:24:47where the excavator kept finding these
1:24:49little Clay figurines that looked like
1:24:51this hm a little Doer little doer yeah
1:24:55so he he interpreted them as
1:24:57fallaces right you know they're long
1:24:59with a
1:25:00little a board game you know and then
1:25:03they found they did some more excavation
1:25:05and somebody realized actually that fits
1:25:06onto a human figurine not as a phus it's
1:25:09a fist oh and so you know you need that
1:25:12larger context to interpret an artifact
1:25:15but at the same time we also need to
1:25:17understand that a lot of things that
1:25:18seem to us as having one interpretation
1:25:20they can be used in different ways at
1:25:22different times like right you do you
1:25:25only drink coffee out of a coffee mug
1:25:27right do you only drink wine out of a
1:25:29wine glass right there's different
1:25:30things that we use in different context
1:25:33like we're in an apartment now but are
1:25:35we living here you know what I mean and
1:25:37so if we take this sort of
1:25:39onedimensional understanding of an
1:25:40artifact and we say oh that's a wine cup
1:25:43because we have it painted on there and
1:25:44we know that that looks exactly like a
1:25:45wine cup but hey it's used in different
1:25:48contexts and different ways and we need
1:25:50to understand that and same thing with a
1:25:52building you know an AR archeologist
1:25:54when I go to a site I look at it totally
1:25:57differently than a tourist would right
1:25:59if you go and you look at the sorry to
1:26:00keep bringing up the paron and anthens
1:26:02but you go see that Temple to Athena
1:26:04lovely columns they worshiped Athena
1:26:07there right dude that building has a
1:26:112,000 year plus history to it at one
1:26:14point it was a church at another point
1:26:16it was a mosque did you know that still
1:26:18to this day it's cleverly hidden by
1:26:20conservators who want to present it as a
1:26:22temple but in the what the in the in the
1:26:24corner of it there's still a medieval
1:26:27tower that has stairs in a spiral
1:26:29staircase that you can go up to the top
1:26:30of I've been at the top and you can look
1:26:32down into the Parthenon because the
1:26:34entire Acropolis was a medieval Fortress
1:26:37and in fact you know there was this
1:26:38giant Tower right at the entrance to the
1:26:40Acropolis a total medieval Tower you
1:26:42want to know who knocked it down who who
1:26:44lobbied to knock it down Hinrich
1:26:45schleman because it was an eyesore they
1:26:48want Hinrich schan was the guy who
1:26:49discovered Troy he was one of the very
1:26:51first archaeologists ever the guy who
1:26:53like basically dynamited through Troy
1:26:55and like destroyed it right he also was
1:26:57the guy one of the first excavators at
1:26:58minini and so you know he also stole a
1:27:01lot of treasure and and put it on his
1:27:02wife and took photographs of it he was
1:27:04not a good dude and uh but uh so he he
1:27:08wanted he lived in Athens his grave is
1:27:10still in Athens in the National Cemetery
1:27:12I've been to it and uh he he and other
1:27:14archaeologists in the 19th century they
1:27:16wanted to destroy that Tower because
1:27:18they wanted it to look like the
1:27:19classical past they wanted to ignore the
1:27:21ottoman past the medieval past they
1:27:22wanted it to be ancient Greece but when
1:27:25I go there I'm interested in that whole
1:27:27dynamic history that's there right
1:27:30that's what we study I was saying even
1:27:31more so you might see it in one way but
1:27:34another archaeologist that might have
1:27:35studied a different time period might
1:27:36see it in another way exactly and they
1:27:38should we all compliment each other to
1:27:39be able to recre construct the past with
1:27:41different questions and methods and
1:27:42thoughts and that's really important it
1:27:44all comes back to seeing it in that
1:27:46context right and uh you know and and a
1:27:49lot of people think that Archaeology is
1:27:50common sense and so one of the examples
1:27:53I use to to argue against that is again
1:27:55Heinrich schleman has this notebook page
1:27:57from his publication on Troy and he he's
1:28:00digging deep into Troy and he opens up
1:28:02this like room that has never been in
1:28:05for like the last like 3,000 years and
1:28:08in there he finds these live toads right
1:28:11and his explanation for it is that these
1:28:14toads actually come from the period of
1:28:16these homeric Heroes at Troy and they've
1:28:18survived that whole time in that area
1:28:21because he was the first person to open
1:28:22it up that was his common sense with and
1:28:25they were alive still they weren't like
1:28:27new generations they were they lived
1:28:28that whole time that's how he published
1:28:30it because at that time that was his
1:28:32Common Sense wait like they were like
1:28:33vampire toads that just toads are
1:28:36biologically Immortal if nothing kills
1:28:37them they don't die and and then on the
1:28:39same page he describes swastikas on the
1:28:41pottery and talks about Aryan super
1:28:44civilizations and so this is the kind of
1:28:46common sense that takes a lot of effort
1:28:48to understand that Archaeology is not
1:28:51common sense it's built on all these
1:28:53hypo IES that have come over the last
1:28:55200 years that have been tested and
1:28:57refuted tested and refuted new
1:28:58discoveries and whatnot and and the ways
1:29:00that we interpret stuff it's not I would
1:29:02argue one of the biggest tells for
1:29:03pseudo anything is anytime somebody uses
1:29:06the phrase common sense you can almost
1:29:07completely out of hand dismiss
1:29:08everything I think that's true one thing
1:29:11have you seen I don't know there's like
1:29:13a meme that goes around of like if
1:29:15archaeologists found like rabbit bones
1:29:17uh like you know 200 years ago and it's
1:29:19like got like a rabbit bone and then
1:29:20like the skin is like super tight and
1:29:22close because like that we understand
1:29:25the image of like a T-Rex for example
1:29:27from its sceletal structure might not be
1:29:29I think there was like a mummified
1:29:31dinosaur that really changed how we
1:29:33understood at least that specific breed
1:29:34of dinosaur looked because it had its
1:29:36skin on like oh there was a lot of extra
1:29:39skin and hide than we otherwise expected
1:29:41and stuff um I'm super curious like I
1:29:44really want to ask about dinosaurs
1:29:45mostly because I'm obsessed with
1:29:47Dinosaurs um I guess like how often do
1:29:49you think that that's the case where
1:29:50essentially um like new discoveries kind
1:29:52of like shift and shape these types of
1:29:54things especially for like extinct
1:29:56species or extinct cultures that like we
1:29:58have basically no context in the modern
1:30:01world to begin to
1:30:03understand yeah that's a tough question
1:30:05there's a cool a cool example that I can
1:30:07kind of think of is again you know I I'm
1:30:09no paleont toist so I won't be able to
1:30:11tell you too much about dinosaurs other
1:30:12than just you know just armchair expert
1:30:15yeah um but one one that I think is kind
1:30:17of interesting is um ice age horses from
1:30:20Europe um so wa real quick when is the
1:30:22ice age uh the ice age you could say it
1:30:25kind of ended in the last the last
1:30:27glacial period ended about 15,000 years
1:30:28ago um so the last ice age would be
1:30:31between like what's like 120 and 20,000
1:30:34years ago is that about right that's the
1:30:36last and when was the when did the comet
1:30:38that you or the asteroid that destroy
1:30:39the dinos 65 million years ago so very
1:30:42long time ago but this ice age that we
1:30:45are in right now has been going on for
1:30:46about the last 2 million years so it's
1:30:48cycles of glacial periods and then
1:30:50interglacial periods so we're in an
1:30:51interg glacial period right now that's
1:30:53why we have winter it's also why we
1:30:55understand that global warming is
1:30:56actually happening because we actually
1:30:57should be slowly not like right away we
1:31:00should actually be going back to a cold
1:31:01we kind of at the end and instead we are
1:31:03getting warmer and warmer and warmer so
1:31:05it CES like 20,000 years or well varies
1:31:085 to 20,000 years are these inter
1:31:10glacial periods and the glacial periods
1:31:11are long they're very long they're like
1:31:13you
1:31:14said years so the the the place I'm
1:31:17going with that was um uh horses we have
1:31:20you know a whole bunch of horse Bones
1:31:21from all over Europe I'm sure you could
1:31:23talk about this
1:31:25yeah there you go this guy found some um
1:31:27but like you said when you find a horse
1:31:28bone you only know that it was a horse
1:31:30you don't really know anything else
1:31:31about like what it looked like um and so
1:31:33one of the ways that they've been able
1:31:34to reconstruct or at least be able to in
1:31:36in uh inter interpret what the horses
1:31:39looked like is through cave art so
1:31:41there's cave art throughout Europe that
1:31:42shows horses painted by people who lived
1:31:44around these horses and they have
1:31:45different coats so some of them are
1:31:47different colors they have Speckles some
1:31:48of them have like you know like they
1:31:50they're have like a different color on
1:31:51one part than they do on the other part
1:31:53and like they can make a map of Europe
1:31:55based on all these horse paintings and
1:31:56sort of get an idea for like what the
1:31:58different coats of horses looked like
1:31:59because of those paintings which we
1:32:00wouldn't have been able to know if we
1:32:02only had the bones this might I don't
1:32:04know if we've seen the same thing or not
1:32:05but I've or it might even been a comic I
1:32:07saw something but it was like basically
1:32:08like paleontologists are the first ones
1:32:09to discover horses and then the drawings
1:32:11of the horses are these horrific
1:32:12creatures with like scales and [ __ ] and
1:32:14I think the argument was and I don't
1:32:15know if this is true or not but that
1:32:17there isn't really a good reason to
1:32:18think that um that dinosaurs were all
1:32:20scaly horrible creatures some of them
1:32:21could have been furry some of them could
1:32:22have had feathers I think feathers is a
1:32:24big
1:32:25one we never imag any I'm not a
1:32:27paleontologist at all but uh I don't
1:32:29study dinosaurs but I do study ancient
1:32:30animals and so oh go on oh I was just
1:32:33going to ask how do we like have you
1:32:34seen medieval paintings of cats yeah
1:32:37they terrifying if we used those as an
1:32:40idea if cats went extinct or whatever as
1:32:42like what cats look like then cats are
1:32:43like Monsters like they're horrifying
1:32:45looking so how so I get that we can get
1:32:47like coat colors and stuff but obviously
1:32:48like a lot of the cave paintings make
1:32:50like big round bellies whereas it might
1:32:53be hard to know like were they like big
1:32:54thick and drafty like the Icelandic
1:32:56ponies or are they like more skinny and
1:32:58slender or are we not really able to
1:32:59determine that yeah so we have to be
1:33:01really careful of using art and using
1:33:03modern misconceptions yeah um art we
1:33:06know is is actually culturally created
1:33:08and like you know I have this fun
1:33:09Twitter threat on people drawing lions
1:33:12and it's clear that a lot of them never
1:33:13seen a lion right it's just really
1:33:18clear such an important component of
1:33:20ancient art that even if you've seen a
1:33:22lion or not you're going to draw it
1:33:23right painted on a pot or whatever it is
1:33:25and so we do need to be very careful cuz
1:33:27we can see biases in art and stuff like
1:33:29that and we can start correcting some of
1:33:31that today with DNA um to understand
1:33:33that but a good example is horses in
1:33:35fact and more recent horses you know you
1:33:38own horses as you said and so we have
1:33:40this picture of horses as these really
1:33:42large and I've studied a bunch of
1:33:43ancient horses like buried horses
1:33:44outside of Athens I've studied like 15
1:33:46of them or so like the little guys right
1:33:48like the well they're all little is the
1:33:49point and what we think of as a warhorse
1:33:52in the past was the size of what we
1:33:54would call a pony today and there's some
1:33:56of my uh which to be clear for viewers
1:33:58Ponies are not just children
1:34:02horses P never means baby horse that's a
1:34:05full anyways and so we can just to be
1:34:07clear Pony never means baby horse not at
1:34:10all it has to do the funny that we've
1:34:13got a guy here who looks like BOS we're
1:34:14talking about horses and so you know
1:34:17all all all of our all of our uh
1:34:21thoughts on what horses are are totally
1:34:22wrong because they're all modern breeds
1:34:24you know it's only in the last few
1:34:26hundred years that what we think of as
1:34:28Horses have come about same thing with
1:34:29dogs you know like same thing with cats
1:34:32same thing with everything what we think
1:34:33of as these animals that we see just 500
1:34:36years ago a thousand years ago 2,000
1:34:38years ago they were totally different
1:34:39this is true of almost every biological
1:34:41thing it's also very true of fruit and
1:34:42vegetables as well paintings of
1:34:45watermelons from like even just like I
1:34:47don't know like 400 years ago there's
1:34:49one in in the MFA in Boston and like
1:34:51it's like you know it's cut in half and
1:34:53it's
1:34:54all like white rind with like four
1:34:56segments of like the red flesh of the
1:34:58watermelon looks completely different
1:35:00completely different I'm sure you guys
1:35:02have all seen the you know little like
1:35:04you know the maze versus wheat or like
1:35:06you know what ended up turning into corn
1:35:08like it was one little stock with like
1:35:10you
1:35:10know alting yeah you put that up yeah so
1:35:14like it's amazing how much that stuff
1:35:15has changed and I'm sure I'm sure you've
1:35:16heard this one and you probably could
1:35:17even add a little bit more to it but I
1:35:19saw something funny recently um in the
1:35:20topic of you know things that are just
1:35:21lost if they're not written down is
1:35:23there's this really old like I don't
1:35:24know it's it's some like Nordic
1:35:27dictionary or something like that you
1:35:28know as far back as dictionaries go and
1:35:30the definition for a horse is everyone
1:35:32knows what a horse is like you know and
1:35:34so if there were no horses if all the
1:35:36horses were gone and we read that we'd
1:35:37be like well I don't know what a horse
1:35:39is you know so it's Common Sense yeah
1:35:41it's Common Sense everyone seen a right
1:35:43everyone knew what a mean there's the
1:35:45breed of uh dog I saw something about
1:35:47this recently I do think it was
1:35:48literally just like a post so again I
1:35:49need to look into this a little bit more
1:35:50but it's this breed of dog from like
1:35:52medieval Europe that was really small
1:35:54and it was like bred to like run on a
1:35:56wheel to like rotate like a a spit over
1:35:5919th century 18th century 19th century
1:36:01okay so a little bit more you know more
1:36:03more recently but like it was a dog that
1:36:04was bred for that it was seen as kind of
1:36:06just like you know a Workhorse kind of
1:36:07thing so nobody bothered to like you
1:36:09know keep it as a pet or like breed it a
1:36:11bunch and it just like died off and it's
1:36:12just gone or write about it yeah so it's
1:36:14like we have a few drawings and a few
1:36:15pictures and like none of that dog
1:36:17anymore so it's like you know if we
1:36:19didn't have that it would just be
1:36:20totally lost because it was so it was
1:36:22deemed so like you know ordinary that
1:36:25like why would I even bother writing
1:36:26that down yeah what do you think is the
1:36:28first time or when is the first time in
1:36:30history where somebody was concerned
1:36:32with preserving things for like future
1:36:35civilizations so I'm sure at some point
1:36:37people are drawing things or writing
1:36:39things for their family and then I'm
1:36:40sure at some point people in court are
1:36:42like well for future governments when do
1:36:43you think it's the first time in history
1:36:44somebody is like at some point our
1:36:46civilization will fail or fall and I
1:36:48want people way off in the future to
1:36:49have an understanding of this do you
1:36:51think that's a really recent thing in
1:36:52the past few hundred years or oh God no
1:36:54I mean I don't think the concept of
1:36:55civilization falling is necessarily the
1:36:57concept but uh you can even read you
1:36:59know Herodotus or thiddies the first
1:37:01Greek historians and they about this for
1:37:04people at home that don't know sorry
1:37:05this is from like the fifth century BC
1:37:07so 400s BC and these two historians are
1:37:10writing very specifically thusi starts
1:37:12off his history of the pelian wars the
1:37:14war between Athens and Sparta and he
1:37:16says this is a record for future people
1:37:19so that they understand what happened
1:37:21why it happened how it happened and they
1:37:22can learn from it and you think when he
1:37:24says future people he's not thinking of
1:37:25people like his great- grandchildren
1:37:27he's thinking of like a future people
1:37:29capital P like because you know at that
1:37:30point they already had these kind of
1:37:32oral histories which aren't really
1:37:34histories but mythology like uh the ilot
1:37:37and the Odyssey right and even then you
1:37:39know the entire like goal of the Iliad
1:37:43is the Achilles chooses undying glory
1:37:46and fame that will be remembered Through
1:37:48the Ages and he makes that choice
1:37:51consciously he wants to be remembered if
1:37:53you see I mean down centuries and
1:37:55centuries and centuries and you know so
1:37:57people back then they had this concept
1:38:00of the deep past as well and there they
1:38:03they they you know they would even go
1:38:04throughout this period in in Greek
1:38:06history and prehistory they would go and
1:38:08have tomb cult they go into Graves of
1:38:10people from that were living hundreds of
1:38:12years ago sometimes we think it's to
1:38:14claim the land to say that this is my
1:38:15ancestor right even though it might not
1:38:17be and so there is that concept of
1:38:19preserving memory you know into the
1:38:21future um very very early and I imagine
1:38:24it existed far before people wrote it
1:38:25down as well so like in oral tradition
1:38:28and all that yeah yeah to preserve that
1:38:29now you know there's all kinds of issues
1:38:31with oral tradition it's a fantastic uh
1:38:33device for remembering the past but we
1:38:36can see how an oral story like the Ott
1:38:38or the Odyssey it picks up details over
1:38:40the centuries I I forget if I said this
1:38:42to you guys about how you know in one
1:38:44line you have a spear that is a Bronze
1:38:46Age style Spear and then in the next
1:38:48line it becomes an Iron Age style Spear
1:38:50and you know you have the bores tus
1:38:51helmets that are Bronze Age Style you
1:38:53have different Shields that match
1:38:55different periods and so this oral
1:38:57tradition picks up this kind of material
1:38:59culture that we can date we've now
1:39:01excavated it but to them it didn't
1:39:02really matter it was this world of
1:39:04anachronisms in many ways and it wasn't
1:39:06a problem you know one like uh like
1:39:09thinking thought a way that I wish
1:39:11people would uh consider things is
1:39:13sometimes things are not correct but I
1:39:15think people falsely assume sometimes
1:39:18that if a thing is incorrect that it's
1:39:20random or arbitrary and like what you
1:39:22just said sometimes people can be
1:39:24incorrect about things this is true even
1:39:25of like political propaganda but when
1:39:27people are wrong about things or they're
1:39:28saying a thing that's not exactly true
1:39:30there's a reason why they're saying it
1:39:32and sometimes somebody being incorrect
1:39:33about a thing could even give you more
1:39:35evidence to the intent or what's going
1:39:37on than them just stating a fact it's
1:39:39how we actually understood that this was
1:39:41an oral poetry right you know it was uh
1:39:43milman Perry who did a ethnography of
1:39:46oral poetry in the Balkans and then he
1:39:48went back and reread the Odyssey and the
1:39:50ilot he's like oh [ __ ] they keep
1:39:52repeating these phrases and these terms
1:39:53to match a a poetic meter that's how
1:39:56oral stuff comes about and then they
1:39:57develop that whole hypothesis and since
1:39:59then we keep testing it and we find
1:40:00these archaeological signatures that
1:40:02show that it's this oral thing and so
1:40:04you know exactly these unintentional
1:40:06things these anachronisms are part of
1:40:09the history of those poems just like the
1:40:12the the cross on the Statue right you
1:40:14know this is all part of the Lively
1:40:16Dynamic history of these you know text
1:40:18or materials or whatever and so you know
1:40:21that's really important to understand
1:40:22it's also why when we make a movie and
1:40:24we have anachronisms in it dude that's
1:40:26fine anachronisms have always existed
1:40:29you know that's part of stories and
1:40:31that's also you know I think we're
1:40:32touching on something important because
1:40:34the uh you know the idea of Storytelling
1:40:36in Mythos is a huge tool in the
1:40:39conspiracy theorist toolbox like that is
1:40:41just like piece number one is you know
1:40:44you don't need to have any evidence of
1:40:46that lost advanc Globe spanning
1:40:48civilization if you have a story from
1:40:50this place and this place that both talk
1:40:52about a blood and a hero like that's it
1:40:55that's all you need and like it's it's
1:40:57ridiculous it is I mean like I I I I
1:40:59don't that is not enough evidence well
1:41:01floods only happen in the Mediterranean
1:41:03they've literally never happened
1:41:04anywhere only at the end of the Ice Age
1:41:07a global flood I mean you know my always
1:41:10defense against that is like do you
1:41:11remember Hurricane Katrina how about
1:41:13Fukushima one by a tsunami one by a
1:41:16hurricane all these floods that created
1:41:18all these stories in history for
1:41:20different reasons and people in the
1:41:22future might link that global warming
1:41:24and sea level rise they'd be fing wrong
1:41:27right to say that every flood is part of
1:41:29the same event is ridiculous it doesn't
1:41:31it didn't happen and so like that that's
1:41:33I think the thing that is really
1:41:34frustrating because many of the kind of
1:41:38conspiracy people when they are trying
1:41:39to at least act reverent of you know
1:41:41indigenous cultures and things like that
1:41:43will be like see we're actually
1:41:44listening to the Mythos and like you
1:41:46know it's archaeologists who are just
1:41:47saying this is worthless which like no
1:41:49archaeologist is saying that's worthless
1:41:50that's complete horeshit um but like you
1:41:52know what what they're doing is they're
1:41:54generalizing to such a level that it
1:41:56ends up becoming incredibly
1:41:57disrespectful because you are just
1:41:58looking at it at face value a a really
1:42:01interesting example that I I love is uh
1:42:04uh one of the indigenous groups of the
1:42:05Pacific Northwest um they have a story
1:42:08that the uh like Eagle Spirit was like
1:42:11fighting with like the whale spirit and
1:42:13in that battle the eagle picked the
1:42:14whale up from the ocean and dropped it
1:42:17and when it dropped the whale into the
1:42:18ocean it made this huge Splash that like
1:42:20wiped out the people on the shore well
1:42:22we have evidence now that around that
1:42:23time was when the um the fault line
1:42:26slipped and there was a tsunami that
1:42:27inundated all the low-lying areas in
1:42:29like the Pacific Northwest and that was
1:42:31their explanation for it so like that is
1:42:33a great example of an indigenous oral
1:42:35history that is recording a real event
1:42:37in um you know in in Massachusetts I was
1:42:39just in Martha's Vineyard recently and I
1:42:42uh went to visit some of the um cultural
1:42:44sites for the um akina um woag people
1:42:49and in speaking with them they were
1:42:50talking about the um oral histories like
1:42:53they they have an oral record of when
1:42:55Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket
1:42:57separated from like the mainland like
1:43:00when the sea level slowly Rose enough
1:43:02that like you know eventually it was
1:43:03separated they became two islands n
1:43:05Tucket sound flooded like those are all
1:43:07real stories they're told through great
1:43:09leaders I can't remember what the name
1:43:10was of the leader that um you know was
1:43:12was present in all these but it explains
1:43:14the colors of the cliffs it explains why
1:43:16like you know like it was his footprint
1:43:18that like squashed the land down and
1:43:19allowed the water to flow in and stuff
1:43:21like that so these are all Inc
1:43:23incredibly important anthropological
1:43:24tools but you know the disrespect that
1:43:27comes from the pseudo scientists is that
1:43:30they are generalizing it to be all part
1:43:31of one big story that is being taken at
1:43:33face value and in doing so removes not
1:43:35only the cultural context but the like
1:43:37scientific and educational context that
1:43:39is baked into all of these
1:43:41stories um I'm super curious do you feel
1:43:43like there's um like I feel like every
1:43:45discipline is going to have be privy to
1:43:47its own common fallacies and thinking
1:43:50errors um that people within the
1:43:52industry will probably be both
1:43:54simultaneously blind to and constantly
1:43:56being like Oh yeah I have to remember
1:43:57this is a really common thinking error
1:43:59so for example I always talk about like
1:44:01specialty uh Obsession so um anytime you
1:44:04like start getting into like a mental
1:44:06health Focus it's like if you research
1:44:08addiction everything's addiction if you
1:44:10research narcissism everything's
1:44:12narcissism right and it can be really
1:44:14important if you're like hyp specialized
1:44:15to like step back and be like hold on is
1:44:17this narcissism or is this just like my
1:44:20specialty bias like kind of pulling in
1:44:23do you think that there's any common
1:44:24like thinking errors or biases within
1:44:26archaeology that you have to be mindful
1:44:28of or as like a common like error within
1:44:30kind of uh classically trained
1:44:33archaeologists I think the lack of
1:44:34astrophysics studying means you guys
1:44:36never even consider aliens which is a
1:44:38huge disappointment dude you're so right
1:44:40you're dang yeah I think that's our big
1:44:42blind spot as aliens um astronomy you
1:44:45said you have no astronomy so well we do
1:44:47have ason there's plenty of archo
1:44:48astronomy um but uh so one of the like I
1:44:53like I've like I've emphasized a few
1:44:54times one of the cool things about
1:44:55Archaeology is just how
1:44:56interdisciplinary it is and it's not
1:44:58just super interdisciplinary it's it's
1:45:00it's International and so you know what
1:45:02that means is there's so many different
1:45:04schools of thought on how to do
1:45:06archaeology Greek archaeologists do
1:45:09things different from German
1:45:10archaeologists who do things different
1:45:12from American archaeologists a zo
1:45:14archaeologist who studies animal remains
1:45:16is doing stuff differently from a
1:45:17ceramist who's studying the pottery
1:45:19who's doing something different from the
1:45:20architect person who's studying the
1:45:22architecture and and so you know to a
1:45:24certain degree that major heterogeneity
1:45:27of the field itself it it it means that
1:45:30if there are these kind of blind spots
1:45:32and these fallacies they exist in a
1:45:34microcosm within a subdiscipline you
1:45:36know what I mean and we do find examples
1:45:38of that the best example of that is of
1:45:40course the change from Clovis first to
1:45:42understanding that pre-clovis cultures
1:45:44existed in the Americas right and so you
1:45:46can see it's really clear if you look
1:45:47through the history of this that there
1:45:49was clearly a logical fallacy from many
1:45:51of the archaeologists who studied the
1:45:53peopling of the Americas at the you know
1:45:55in the 70s ' 80s and up until the '90s
1:45:58and so you know they they they refused
1:46:01to accept some of the evidence that was
1:46:02constantly being presented one site
1:46:04after another that overturned eventually
1:46:06overturned that hypothesis of Clovis
1:46:08first and we now know people came to the
1:46:09Americas earlier but that is such a
1:46:12small portion of the field almost nobody
1:46:14studies the peopling of the Americas if
1:46:16you see what I mean it's just a very
1:46:18tiny group of people that specialize in
1:46:21that very specific topic me I study
1:46:23Greek archaeology I could care less in
1:46:25terms of like my my my output of
1:46:27scholarship on when the first people
1:46:30arrived in the Americas and some people
1:46:32say well archaeologists shut down these
1:46:34new ideas no there were a handful of
1:46:36people that were not accepting of them
1:46:38and then they eventually accepted them
1:46:39right and so you know even American
1:46:41archaeologists meaning people who
1:46:43specialize on the archaeology of America
1:46:45most of them don't study the earliest
1:46:47people there they study Colonial periods
1:46:49they study archaic periods they study
1:46:51people from a thousand years ago 2,000
1:46:53years ago so they had no horse in that
1:46:55race either and so you know those kind
1:46:57of blind spots therefore are going to be
1:46:59fairly context based if you see what I
1:47:01mean and I do think there's several I
1:47:03could think of a lot for Greek
1:47:04archaeology right in Greek archaeology
1:47:06we have way too much confidence in the
1:47:08ceramic style dates that we get and we
1:47:10need to do more radiocarbon dating right
1:47:12and it's just part of the tradition of
1:47:13how Greek and Roman Archaeology is done
1:47:16and it's slowly changing but that's so
1:47:18hyperlocal to the to to the
1:47:20Mediterranean everywhere else they're
1:47:22doing radiocarbon dating nonstop and so
1:47:24you know it's these very local
1:47:25Traditions that have these blinders on
1:47:28but then somebody from outside sort of
1:47:30says wait a second you know in the
1:47:31Americas we don't do it this way and
1:47:33this is why maybe you guys should be
1:47:34doing more of that and then they slowly
1:47:36start changing and start doing more of
1:47:38that yeah and it's it's it's like you
1:47:39said it's hyper local and it's very like
1:47:41Niche specific like they you know a lot
1:47:43of the pseudo people really cling to
1:47:45that whole like Clovis first thing as an
1:47:46example of like when big archaeology was
1:47:49wrong and it's like most archaeologists
1:47:52have Absol absolutely no like study in
1:47:55Clovis culture like there are so many
1:47:57civilizations around so much of the
1:47:59world spanning every time period and
1:48:01then like Specialists within each
1:48:03element of any one of those
1:48:04civilizations at any given time it's
1:48:05like it isn't just like archaeology as a
1:48:07whole is like you know all studying
1:48:10Clovis culture like slow developments
1:48:12were made when those develop
1:48:14developments were made there was
1:48:15discussion within the field to Pro prove
1:48:17or disprove the new discovery and then
1:48:19like you know things were either changed
1:48:21or not changed based on the evidence and
1:48:23it's within that Niche it's within that
1:48:25hyper localized field and like it's very
1:48:27easy for a lot of the kind of alt
1:48:29history crowd to cling to that as a
1:48:31opportunity to throw the baby out with
1:48:33the bath water of like hey in this
1:48:35example of this place like you know this
1:48:37was wrong and therefore like it would be
1:48:39like saying you know like the Ford Pinto
1:48:41if it gets rear ended it will explode we
1:48:42can't drive cars like cars are unsafe
1:48:45they are dangerous like and they could
1:48:46be wrong they are always going to be
1:48:48wrong and like there is implicit biases
1:48:50and making cars that are going to put us
1:48:51in danger it's like no that was like one
1:48:55manufacturer with one Mak model of car
1:48:57in a specific year that comes down to a
1:48:59specific part and that was resolved
1:49:02within that field and the changes were
1:49:03made because that's how development
1:49:05happens so like it is ridiculous to take
1:49:07like one thing that has changed because
1:49:10of research in the field I will
1:49:12highlight again all these changes are
1:49:13made by archaeologists they're not made
1:49:15by other people uh and then you know to
1:49:17use that as an opportunity to be like
1:49:19and so everything must be wrong that is
1:49:21just ridiculous this might the
1:49:22formalization this might be called the
1:49:23Nirvana fallacy I'm not sure but it's
1:49:25very frustrating when you have like a
1:49:26real messy system that has produced good
1:49:29results but like there are errors but
1:49:31people will point to mistakes in it and
1:49:32then they propose some hypothetical
1:49:34never existed system and like what about
1:49:36that or that I was like yeah they were
1:49:37wrong there wow you made a lot of
1:49:39mistakes right yeah but also modern
1:49:40civilization like the what we what do
1:49:43you think you think physicists have said
1:49:45the same thing in the last 100 years
1:49:46they've changed drastically
1:49:48congratulations like you Dr medicine 200
1:49:50years ago they Dr Mercury when
1:49:52they're like Archaeology is all wrong
1:49:54because they keep changing their minds
1:49:55on stuff and it's like dude every single
1:49:56field of study updates what it's doing
1:49:59as it goes on and just to emphasize how
1:50:01different things are could you guys like
1:50:03think about it you you have a room and
1:50:04you want to excavate it right there are
1:50:06so many different ways to excavate that
1:50:08room and every person in charge of how
1:50:11to excavate that room is going to do it
1:50:12differently so like you know and like I
1:50:14said it has to do with national stuff as
1:50:16well so you know what the Germans do
1:50:18what the Germans do is they excavate in
1:50:205 cm what are called spits so the take
1:50:22off 5 cm and other 5 cm and another 5
1:50:25cenm and collect each 5 cm stuff
1:50:27together right what the what the what
1:50:30the the people from the UK will do is
1:50:32they'll do what's called an open context
1:50:34system they don't care about going down
1:50:355 Centimeters at a time they want to see
1:50:37when the soil layer changes and then
1:50:39they'll stop and collect stuff
1:50:41differently with the next layer what
1:50:42Americans will do is they'll divide the
1:50:44room in two and they'll do it the
1:50:45British way for half of it then they'll
1:50:47check the profile and see if the
1:50:49stratagraph is correct and excavate it a
1:50:50second time and So based on the way that
1:50:53you're brought up on how to excavate
1:50:55impacts how you collect that data and so
1:50:57that's why you know it is so
1:50:59heterogeneous and that's why we don't
1:51:01have just the same blinders on if you
1:51:02see what I mean because we're all doing
1:51:04things differently even different Labs
1:51:06that do DNA or Isotopes or whatever you
1:51:09know the the way we do it at Cardiff is
1:51:10different from how they do it in
1:51:11Brussels you know and so it's just like
1:51:13we have our own lab culture of how we do
1:51:16things right and since I was trained in
1:51:18the Cardiff way of doing Isotopes if I
1:51:20set up an isotope lab somewhere else
1:51:22I'll replicate in a sense that way of
1:51:24doing it with the Cardiff lab also I'm
1:51:26developing some of my own methods so
1:51:27that'll then change things and and that
1:51:29that makes things difficult to piece
1:51:31things together but it also helps
1:51:32prevent some of these blinders if you
1:51:34see what I mean because we're all doing
1:51:36it very differently and I wish also I
1:51:38wish people in general try to encourage
1:51:39people to think you should always be
1:51:41thinking in terms of pros and cons not
1:51:42in better and worse because usually
1:51:44there's usually a pro to almost
1:51:46everything I don't like the German
1:51:47system of excavation it IGN
1:51:54he have good love some of my colleagues
1:51:57but I think that way an isue in my mind
1:52:01because you're mixing up stuff from
1:52:02different strata if you have two strata
1:52:04and that five but whatever and the the
1:52:06the sort of like uh homogeneous nature
1:52:09of Archaeology is something that almost
1:52:12you know works against it for the
1:52:14pseudoarchaeology people because it
1:52:16gives them an opportunity to be like hey
1:52:18there was times where they were wrong or
1:52:20there were times where like things were
1:52:21changed and so that just gives them you
1:52:23know like the the little niche in the
1:52:24armor that they can just like find a way
1:52:26through because in their eyes they view
1:52:27it as being the complete opposite where
1:52:29it's like they have the answer the
1:52:32capital T answer and like that is like
1:52:34the thing that they have found and they
1:52:36their their uh philosophy at ideology
1:52:39does not revolve around like developing
1:52:42developing your understanding as you go
1:52:44they start with the conclusion and then
1:52:46they just find whatever pieces of
1:52:47evidence they can to fill it in which
1:52:49like isn't that is science can work like
1:52:51that where it's like I have a theory
1:52:52that X so I'm going to do this that this
1:52:55and the other thing until I either prove
1:52:56or disprove that theory but Archaeology
1:52:58is a little different because it's very
1:52:59experimental where you can still have
1:53:00theories and there still hypotheses but
1:53:02like you excavate and you make
1:53:03interpretations based on what you're
1:53:04finding but like with with a lot of the
1:53:06pseudo crowd they think that there needs
1:53:09to be the answer and that just isn't how
1:53:11it works so in doing that in archaeology
1:53:13being a field that you know is is
1:53:15immensely interdisciplinary in it being
1:53:17a field that has so many different
1:53:19locations and so many different niches
1:53:21uh it it is something that is really
1:53:22really flexible and the irony and the
1:53:24way that you can see that a lot of the
1:53:25pseudo archaeology crowd views it um
1:53:28views the way that it should be as being
1:53:30very like cut and dry is because they
1:53:32accuse archaeologists of doing that the
1:53:34amount of times that they're like well
1:53:35hey you said this and now it's this and
1:53:37the big one of being like well it's you
1:53:39know an ivory Tower and they don't
1:53:40listen to anyone outside of their field
1:53:41and they don't communicate with anyone
1:53:43it's like no you're doing that like
1:53:45Archaeology is founded the principle of
1:53:47Archaeology is interdisciplinary because
1:53:49it is not enough to just go to a site
1:53:51and dig it up I don't know anything
1:53:52about animal bones I don't know how to
1:53:54do radiocarbon dating we need those
1:53:56people and we need archaeologists
1:53:57because they know how to bring all of
1:53:59that different research from different
1:54:00fields together to apply it it is
1:54:02literally the study of all of like human
1:54:04history like that is an immense field
1:54:06with so many different parts of it that
1:54:07you need a lot of broad Specialties to
1:54:09bring in and there's a lot of there's a
1:54:11there's conceptual Fus uh confusion
1:54:12there too between like a hypothesis and
1:54:14a conclusion right because a hypothesis
1:54:16as you imagine that you need a
1:54:18hypothesis to begin basically any
1:54:19scientific investigation generally at
1:54:21least for experimentation you have to
1:54:22have some idea why I think I'm going to
1:54:23test but there's a difference between
1:54:25having that and then testing it and then
1:54:27either being able to accept or reject
1:54:28the hypothesis versus the conclusion
1:54:30which can never be rejected it just
1:54:32means you did the experiment wrong
1:54:33they're two different things and the the
1:54:35people that come in with the
1:54:36pseudoscientific views are doing what
1:54:38their imagined opponents are doing which
1:54:40is where they think they have one like
1:54:41they are the Ivory Tower in their brain
1:54:43where they reject all external criticism
1:54:45they reject all other forms of approach
1:54:47and you can tell this too because like
1:54:49the hypothesis never updates it's just
1:54:51that the experiment updates like oh well
1:54:52you think that you did this thing and
1:54:53you didn't find that well we need to do
1:54:55it a different way and find it a
1:54:56different because like they're never
1:54:57changing exactly and a really good
1:55:00example of this and especially this is
1:55:01where understanding the history of the
1:55:03field really matters is something like
1:55:04stone tools so you have stone tools made
1:55:06of Flint for example you know I I I
1:55:08flake really well yeah FL but no though
1:55:11so like the issue is how do you about
1:55:13flaking you do come off as a tul out I'm
1:55:16just I'm out here thanks for coming on
1:55:19everybody got two hours get out it's
1:55:22like sort of like how do you tell the
1:55:23difference between just a rock and a
1:55:26stone tool something that was human-made
1:55:29and so you know I had this conversation
1:55:30with Graham and Joe Rogan on there sort
1:55:33of like you know we're looking at this
1:55:34stuff and it's like and they're like
1:55:35well yeah but it has like a straight
1:55:37line here like that looks human-made to
1:55:38me and it's like look we have a long
1:55:41history of trying to figure out what is
1:55:43human made versus not human-made and
1:55:46therefore we reject anything unless
1:55:47we're sure of it and so when you're
1:55:49talking about like a stone tool made of
1:55:50Flint there are very specific ific
1:55:52criteria that we have we understand how
1:55:54it fractures and based on how it
1:55:56fractures it creates these ripples of
1:55:58force so you see these ripples in the
1:56:00fracture you see the bulb of percussion
1:56:03and then you see the platform that was
1:56:04struck and if you don't have those kind
1:56:06of things or the negative of those kind
1:56:08of things because you can get it where a
1:56:10piece was struck off um you cannot say
1:56:12that it's a stone tool instead it's just
1:56:14a random breakage in it because and and
1:56:17you know my dad built a robot he built a
1:56:19robot that he named igore where it
1:56:21actually naps tools methodically to
1:56:23understand the fracture pattern of these
1:56:25kind of things and now his former
1:56:26students they've built similar robots in
1:56:28Australia throughout the US and
1:56:30elsewhere to be able to get at the
1:56:32physics of this or not the physics yeah
1:56:34I guess that is the right word the
1:56:35physics of this to understand how it
1:56:36fractures and how can we determine sort
1:56:39of what people in the past were doing to
1:56:41create these kind of patterns versus
1:56:43just a natural the stone fell and broke
1:56:46and so we have these very clear criteria
1:56:48because in the end science is about
1:56:50convincing your colleagues if you want
1:56:51to convince your colleagues that this
1:56:52hypothesis is Justified and should be a
1:56:54theory and should be true a conclusion
1:56:56or something like that you need to be
1:56:58able to demonstrate that beyond the
1:56:59shadow of the doubt and that's not just
1:57:01oh that's that tool or that stone looks
1:57:04kind of interesting so therefore it
1:57:05might be a tool no we have really clear
1:57:07criteria to understand natural versus
1:57:10human made and there's the looks like
1:57:11thing again I know we talked about this
1:57:13as well but I think it it it Bears
1:57:14repeating for this you know uh interview
1:57:16as well where like looks like is not
1:57:19good enough evidence full stop for
1:57:22like it looks like can be a start to
1:57:24something you need to obviously identify
1:57:26things that look and don't look like I'm
1:57:28not going to look at a stick and think
1:57:29it's an Stone tool cuz it does it's not
1:57:31it's not you know but like if you just
1:57:33look at something and are like it looks
1:57:35like and really the evidence ends there
1:57:37that's not good enough like I I'm not
1:57:39trying to sound like you know
1:57:40archaeological gatekeep you like that is
1:57:42just the fact is like that is not enough
1:57:43evidence to prove anything all that
1:57:46proves is that you think it looks like
1:57:47something I I I feel that way I think
1:57:49exceptionally with the bimy road where
1:57:50it's like you think a road
1:57:52this big that's the road that's
1:57:56underwater right well he didn't come up
1:57:58with it but yeah he didn't come up with
1:57:59it but he's pared it like a the only
1:58:02evidence is it looks like do you know
1:58:04what that story is it's hilarious there
1:58:05was this guy in the 1930s Edward Casey
1:58:08yeah does Clairvoyance and he he
1:58:10believed that he was a reborn person
1:58:12from Atlantis and he predicted that they
1:58:15would find Atlantis in this year and in
1:58:18that year after he's dead you know 30
1:58:20years later some PE divers found that
1:58:22Bim Road and then they said this is
1:58:24Atlantis and his prediction came
1:58:26true so that's literally where that
1:58:29comes from it's just a piece of eroded
1:58:31beach rock the what it looks like
1:58:33argument for in my world I call this the
1:58:34uh isn't it weird isn't itd go and I
1:58:38always and the answer apparently is no
1:58:40nothing is ever weird everything is
1:58:42always explained by whatever idea you I
1:58:44guess there are no coincides nothing
1:58:45weird ever happens nothing strange ever
1:58:46happens it's always explained by
1:58:48whatever controlling entity you think is
1:58:50in charge of everything do as just a
1:58:52quick question because you brought this
1:58:53up before um do you it felt like 20 or
1:58:5630 years ago there was kind of this move
1:58:58from switching from BC and AD to um to
1:59:03BC and BCE from before Christ and I
1:59:08don't versus like and then um it was it
1:59:12was c yeah yeah it was BC Before Common
1:59:14eror and common eror is there did did we
1:59:16give up on that or do you have feelings
1:59:17about it or doesn't matter use it I try
1:59:19and use it I don't really I'm sure
1:59:21people so like BC was uh you know before
1:59:25Christ and BCE and CE now is current ERA
1:59:28and before current ERA um so it's just a
1:59:30little bit more inter denominational
1:59:32screw you God I think it's the woke mom
1:59:35essentially yeah it look it's personal
1:59:37choice is what it ends up being people
1:59:39different people use it differently
1:59:40because they choose to do it in that way
1:59:42yeah I use it both ways i' I've learned
1:59:45that with my Public Communication I've
1:59:46just gone with BC and AD cuz then if I
1:59:48don't people troll me like oh my it's
1:59:51like I really don't care you know I
1:59:53really don't care at all it's just about
1:59:56denoting a date and so it's just like
1:59:58whatever the hill you're dying on Jesus
2:00:00yeah you said that there's clear C
2:00:03there's clear criteria for human made
2:00:05what what's the clear criteria well like
2:00:07I said with the stone tool you end up
2:00:10with these sort of things you have to
2:00:11create a striking platform first and so
2:00:13that's going to be the flat bit that was
2:00:14hit and then that's going to create
2:00:16these ripples which creates this bowl
2:00:18but just has to do with how this type of
2:00:20stone fractures and so for example if
2:00:22you have an architectural block you're
2:00:23going to see tool marks on it and stuff
2:00:25like that and so you know that's why
2:00:26people don't think yonaguni is
2:00:29architecture under other Handcock thing
2:00:31that shows right and there's just you
2:00:33know geologists have been there they've
2:00:35found no evidence of tooling or anything
2:00:37and guess what the island Right Above It
2:00:39has geologically the same features so
2:00:41it's just part geologically there how
2:00:43they fracture and so you know for
2:00:45everything we have these kind of
2:00:47criteria to understand human versus not
2:00:49it varies based on the material it's
2:00:51from it varies based on you know the
2:00:53period it's even from but yeah we we
2:00:55have for sure these typ of criteria
2:00:57that's a really frustrating thing when
2:00:58talking about these conspiracies
2:01:00especially on things like you know
2:01:01ancient apocalypse is like I it can be
2:01:03up for debate as to whether or not any
2:01:04of the things are direct lies and there
2:01:06probably are things that are direct lies
2:01:07but a lot of it is just kind of a lie of
2:01:09omission like yes the bimy road can look
2:01:12like a road if you want it to be but
2:01:15like you are not giving people enough
2:01:17context by telling them that there is
2:01:19other beach rock that looks exactly like
2:01:21it that is composed exactly like it that
2:01:23is all around it like you you you are
2:01:25you are omitting the like major pieces
2:01:29of the puzzle and in doing that it is it
2:01:31is deceiving an audience it is at the
2:01:33very least deceptive and it's really
2:01:35frustrating because so many people are
2:01:36really interested in it and like we've
2:01:37talked about this a lot we talked about
2:01:39this here where like the reason people
2:01:41are watching shows like that and are
2:01:43getting so into pseudo Archaeology is
2:01:44because people love archaeology it's
2:01:46really interesting I mean name a kid
2:01:47that didn't grow up watching Indiana
2:01:49Jones and you know we're inspired by I
2:01:50mean we're practically sitting with them
2:01:51right now you know and so at least his
2:01:53hat um you know and so so I I think that
2:01:56having that uh you know inspiration is
2:01:59really great because it draws people in
2:02:00but then they are being you know whether
2:02:02it's it's malicious or not they are
2:02:04being deceived by just not being
2:02:05provided with enough information to make
2:02:07these conclusions on their own you know
2:02:09yeah sometimes I think in one of our
2:02:12talks we brought this up that uh
2:02:13somebody will bring something up and
2:02:14it's like this is really strange I think
2:02:16I used a 9911 example where they like
2:02:17can you imagine yeah like building uh is
2:02:20it building seven is what they yeah how
2:02:22like could you ever imagine a building
2:02:24being completely you know on fire and
2:02:26for some reason even though it's all
2:02:27still at collapses and like in my mind
2:02:29I'm thinking like no I I have no idea I
2:02:31don't have a basis for comparison how
2:02:32many buildings have you seen have
2:02:33suffered like that yeah like the towers
2:02:34the way they fell it's like I don't know
2:02:35I've se you seen hit by commercial air
2:02:38sometimes there are things that you see
2:02:40that are that are really strange um and
2:02:42my first instinct then not well not
2:02:44Instinct my trained Instinct now I tell
2:02:46other people this is when you see
2:02:46something that seems weird your first
2:02:48thing should be like how often does this
2:02:49happen um like one of the things that
2:02:51was brought up was that they found
2:02:52passports of some of the hijackers from
2:02:54911 just like out you know in New York
2:02:56City that sounds really bizarre to me it
2:02:58does that sounds really I'm like the um
2:03:01but then like I I Google around I'm like
2:03:02how often does this happen and
2:03:03apparently it's pretty common that an
2:03:04airplane crashes like stuff inside the
2:03:06cabin like paperwork and stuff can be
2:03:08dispersed and you can find like yeah
2:03:10like whole documents that are basically
2:03:11untouched from like these catastrophic
2:03:13plane accidents I'm like oh that's
2:03:14really weird I never would have expected
2:03:16that yeah and I think that's actually
2:03:18the real key when you talk about this
2:03:19thing like is this a stone or a rock
2:03:21right know works or not we're we're
2:03:24we're developing these criteria based on
2:03:26millions of them it's not based off of
2:03:28like we have five stones and we're
2:03:30trying to develop criteria we have
2:03:32millions of them I myself have excavated
2:03:34thousands and thousands of these
2:03:36Flintstone tools and also thousands and
2:03:39thousands of non tools that were rocks
2:03:42that's something I was thinking of this
2:03:43a lot when uh you were talking with
2:03:45hanock and he kept on being like well
2:03:46how much of this air how much of this a
2:03:48has been like underturned and I'm like I
2:03:50feel like the only way like I can
2:03:53understand if you don't understand how
2:03:55like statistics and science works why
2:03:58that feels like a really potent argument
2:04:00but the problem is like it's like if you
2:04:02believe in something like IQ for example
2:04:05the the question that people ask
2:04:07wouldn't would never be well have you
2:04:08tested every single person's brain for G
2:04:11and it's like no because once you've
2:04:13tested like 1,200 people you have so
2:04:17many data points like if you have
2:04:19millions like I don't think people get
2:04:21if you have millions of data points you
2:04:24like that is astronomical amounts of
2:04:27evidence for this thing that to now
2:04:30unearth that theory as being incorrect
2:04:33takes even more millions of data points
2:04:35which is why you have like meta analyses
2:04:37and then Super meta analyses which is
2:04:39why it's like yeah we haven't un
2:04:40overturned all of the Sahara but we
2:04:43still have millions of data points where
2:04:46it's like if this uh law civilization
2:04:49was going to occur we would expect you
2:04:51know if we're like looking at a graph of
2:04:53a bell curve and the bell curve
2:04:54represents essentially hunter gatherer
2:04:56tribes and there's a lot civilization
2:04:57there should be this outgroup curve
2:04:59that's just like blowing up on the side
2:05:01because we have millions and millions of
2:05:03do the same with polling data people say
2:05:05like you only pull like a thousand
2:05:06people that's a lot of people that's a
2:05:08good survey like what do you assuming
2:05:10it's cross-sectional or whatever right
2:05:11that's a yeah that's you only need that
2:05:13much to have like your basically your
2:05:15highest confidence intervals like the
2:05:16difference between like a thousand and
2:05:17like 10,000 or even a million is not
2:05:19that much greater a huge difference
2:05:20between like 10 and 100 and a pretty big
2:05:22100 th000 like pass that you're like
2:05:23you're pretty also it's worth noting
2:05:25what the thing is that you know they're
2:05:27arguing for which is a lost Advanced
2:05:30Globe spanning civilization this isn't
2:05:33the kind of thing where it's like oh
2:05:34well it's not over there like maybe it's
2:05:36over here maybe it's under this like if
2:05:38you don't find Globe spanning evidence
2:05:41of the civilization you are talking
2:05:42about it probably isn't there I am sure
2:05:45I made a video on the green Sahara
2:05:46recently it's absolutely fascinating
2:05:48there is some incredible archaeology
2:05:49coming out of there and as far as parts
2:05:51of the the world go it is pretty
2:05:52underrepresented it hasn't been
2:05:54excavated as much as you know Rome or
2:05:56Greece and stuff like that so like there
2:05:57are going to be some immense
2:05:59archaeological discoveries to come out
2:06:00of there and like that's not pseudo
2:06:02archaeology that's just like it hasn't
2:06:04been researched so anything that comes
2:06:05out will be new you know but like is
2:06:07that where the globe spanning
2:06:08civilization was why didn't they leave
2:06:10anything everywhere else then I guess
2:06:11they're not Globe spanning at the very
2:06:13least you know so it's like again it's
2:06:15it's kind of looking for just looking
2:06:17over and over and over again and not uh
2:06:20admitting that it is not there ever like
2:06:23it's it's the thing with the keys is
2:06:25like you know until I find my keys I'm
2:06:27going to keep looking for them and once
2:06:28I've found them I've found them but like
2:06:29if you never find your keys then like uh
2:06:31I guess truly is lost you know and I
2:06:34mean what I what I always get when I
2:06:36talk to the public is people really just
2:06:38don't understand how much archaeology
2:06:40there is and how much is done all the
2:06:42time they like like you know if you
2:06:43watch archaeology on TV or YouTube it's
2:06:46pretty much the same sites the same kind
2:06:48of artifacts that get referenced and it
2:06:51ignores all what we actually do nobody's
2:06:52heard of nioria beautiful site though
2:06:55lot of cool stuff yeah that's this and
2:06:57so you know nobody's heard of most of
2:06:59the projects I work on I normally
2:07:01reference things like Pompei or Athens
2:07:03or whatever because people recognize
2:07:05them they stick in their heads but most
2:07:07of the projects I've worked on our sites
2:07:09you've never heard of and the be the
2:07:11best example for a conspiracy debunking
2:07:12for that are the moon landings because
2:07:14people think that there was like 5
2:07:16minutes of footage there wasn't there
2:07:17was hours and hours of really boring
2:07:21people hopping around without a single
2:07:24no evidence of being recorded on film
2:07:26yeah it wasn't just like 5 minutes of
2:07:28stuff and yeah a lot of people don't
2:07:29realize that it's like there's it's not
2:07:31just like two or three of these things
2:07:32happen per year that are prone to error
2:07:34you're I think this is what I mentioned
2:07:36before sometimes people will make a
2:07:37claim and they don't understand the
2:07:39magnitude of the claim that they're
2:07:40making when you say that this thing is
2:07:41fake you're saying that every government
2:07:44every academic institution every private
2:07:45Corporation and every citizenry that are
2:07:47involved in this project you're you're
2:07:49implicating thousands or hundreds of
2:07:52thousands or even millions of people in
2:07:54this particular thing that everybody's
2:07:55managed to keep under and for what and
2:07:57same thing with archaeology we have we
2:07:58have hundreds of thousands of
2:08:00archaeologists in every single country
2:08:02around the world some of them many of
2:08:04them working for governments many of
2:08:05them working for private firms many of
2:08:07them working for universities and
2:08:08nonprofits a lot of who by the way I bet
2:08:10would love to be able to say I found
2:08:12this thing and you were wrong
2:08:15about is what you do we're always how
2:08:18that's how I opened my thing on Ancient
2:08:19apocalypse I was like if we had evid of
2:08:22Atlantis there's no archaeologist in the
2:08:24world who wouldn't want to have their
2:08:25name on that this a secret and work with
2:08:28the other 1 million people or should I
2:08:29be the guy I'm taking grabbing the
2:08:32golden idol absolutely going to call
2:08:34this mother Steven opoulos by the time
2:08:36I'm done talking about right yeah it's
2:08:38even interesting to think about it's
2:08:39like like think about how if you tell
2:08:42your friend you're a secret what's the
2:08:43chance that stays a secret in like your
2:08:45small friend group well if first of all
2:08:47if they're [ __ ] somebody 0% is a
2:08:50because that person knows 100 thats his
2:08:53friend knows right and it's like if you
2:08:55can't keep like Paulina slept with last
2:08:58week a secret why do you think Atlantis
2:09:00would be kept a secret like it's it's
2:09:02wild you know what I love showing off
2:09:04like look how little kids are like look
2:09:05at my macaroni drawing it's like imagine
2:09:07your macaroni drawing is the Atlantis
2:09:10Discovery like nobody's keeping that a
2:09:12secret that's and again like it would be
2:09:15if there was a long lost glob spanning
2:09:18civilization it would have had such a
2:09:19profound effect on the way that the
2:09:21world is it would be a Cornerstone in
2:09:24the way that the world developed and I
2:09:25get that that's like you know kind of
2:09:26the thing they're looking at of trying
2:09:27to be like oh well these people have
2:09:29similar folktales and storytelling and
2:09:31like you know these stones are the same
2:09:34shape and stuff like that so like I get
2:09:35that's what they're looking for but like
2:09:37that's piss poor evidence like there's
2:09:38going to be more evidence than that they
2:09:40didn't just leave behind one big Road in
2:09:42the Bahamas like there would be there
2:09:45would be massive massive constructions
2:09:47left over there'd be at least something
2:09:49I don't even know if it's massive
2:09:50constructions but like and really the
2:09:51thing I want to highlight here for all
2:09:52of this and for you know people watching
2:09:54is in the debate that you did with
2:09:56Graham hanock on Joe Rogan he admitted
2:09:58that there is no evidence for it
2:10:00literally the words came out of mouth he
2:10:03did recently again as well he finally
2:10:04gave one of his first public addresses
2:10:06since then oh my God he doesn't address
2:10:08the the debate or anything he still is
2:10:10silent by the way um cuz he knows heing
2:10:13lost but uh but uh he actually said look
2:10:17I am not talking about material
2:10:19technology I recognize there's no
2:10:21techology heard walking it back in the
2:10:24middle of things like well they were
2:10:25like really obsessed with the
2:10:27Stars St and now it's like yeah all the
2:10:30things that can't be tracked very well
2:10:32or not actually and I would even argue
2:10:34against that these are things that
2:10:35probably can be tracked pretty well
2:10:36because these ideas pass from
2:10:37civilization to civilization right like
2:10:39the idea that we have of like democracy
2:10:40and republics you know from Greece and
2:10:42Rome or the idea of tracking the stars
2:10:44or mapping out the planet like these are
2:10:46Technologies and things that move from
2:10:49civilization to civilization and we know
2:10:50that differ civilizations Define
2:10:52constellations differently they Dre them
2:10:54differently they labeled them
2:10:55differently all this kind of stuff and
2:10:56so like you know it's it's it's one of
2:10:59the things that I find is there's what I
2:11:01call this universe of pseudo archaeology
2:11:04where whether it's Ancient Aliens or
2:11:06whether it's whether it's aliens lizard
2:11:09people tartaria or or Atlantis they all
2:11:13go to the same like 30 sites and they're
2:11:16like these are the 30 sites that prove
2:11:18aliens and these are the same 30 sites
2:11:20but they prove Atlantis and it's just
2:11:23like man this is just so disingenuous
2:11:26like what's what's their catnip is just
2:11:29big Stones it's really what it is
2:11:31anytime there's a big Stone it's like
2:11:34that's aliens or Atlantis or whatever
2:11:36and it's like or maybe it's just a
2:11:38really big Stone you and the one that
2:11:42really gets me is a pretty foundational
2:11:44part of you know Hancock's theory is
2:11:46talking about like Antarctica as part of
2:11:49it and like or used to be or used to be
2:11:51yeah I know he's kind of moved away from
2:11:52that a little bit but he at least talks
2:11:53about mapping it now and he talks about
2:11:55like you know he he used the like per
2:11:57Reese map or the um whatever arcius
2:12:00Phineas map whichever one it is heed one
2:12:02of those Maps being like this shows the
2:12:04outline of Australia or of uh Australia
2:12:06that's telling uh it shows the outline
2:12:08of you know Antarctica uh and like
2:12:10there's no like you know no ice on it
2:12:12like it's ice free and stuff like that
2:12:14and that's where like that's where I I
2:12:16am proud to bring in you know almost 9
2:12:17years of environmental science
2:12:18experience cuz that's just straight
2:12:20[ __ ] like that's not even like
2:12:22interpreting like a road or a rock that
2:12:24looks like a road and we can you know
2:12:25talk day and night about it and we have
2:12:26to talk geology it's like Antarctica was
2:12:29not ice
2:12:30free any time in the last 2 million
2:12:34years it just wasn't it was not ice free
2:12:37like we have evidence of that we would
2:12:38know there' be so much sea levels would
2:12:40be so much higher if there was ever a
2:12:42point where there was no ice on
2:12:43Antarctica like we have ice cores that
2:12:45go deep 2 million years or more like so
2:12:48you know the these things like it is it
2:12:50is
2:12:51years we're working on it okay be Icee
2:12:53soon enough we're working on it yeah
2:12:54exactly we're yeah enjoy those 2 million
2:12:56year ice scores while you still can um
2:12:59so so this is a thing where like
2:13:00theories like this rely on just sort of
2:13:02saying a thing that just isn't true and
2:13:04then adding a bunch of other evidence
2:13:06that isn't true but like the whole like
2:13:08it just it's a house of cards like any
2:13:09one part of it isn't right you know like
2:13:12the hypothesis we could talk about like
2:13:14there's nothing I'd love more than to
2:13:15sit with some of my friends and smoke a
2:13:17joint and talk about like hey what if
2:13:19there was a lost Advanced civilization
2:13:20that's kind of fun and you spitball some
2:13:22ideas of like where would they be what
2:13:23would they do what would they be like
2:13:25and then you know you sober up and you
2:13:26wake up the next day and go to work and
2:13:28welcome back to the real world you know
2:13:30but like there is there is no evidence
2:13:32again I cannot emphasize this enough it
2:13:34came out of his own mouth like that's
2:13:36crazy it's interesting to kind of look
2:13:38at cuz I maybe I'm super like being too
2:13:41charitable here now and so let me know
2:13:42but it makes me when I like listen to
2:13:44the way so my my father-in-law is a flat
2:13:46earther like staunt flat earther wow oh
2:13:49yeah so our favorite gift to give him is
2:13:50a scope we give him a new one every year
2:13:54and he he loves it that's really funny
2:13:56he's very good he's very very good
2:13:58natured about it sweet um but one thing
2:14:01that's really interesting when I like
2:14:02listen to and talk to people that are
2:14:04very conspiracy brain specifically is it
2:14:06makes me like understand especially when
2:14:09you look at like ancient civilizations
2:14:11and like myth creation of like how that
2:14:13emerges out of the brain like how how
2:14:15people are able to kind of like create
2:14:17these complex interesting like kind of
2:14:20wild stories which like maybe I'm just
2:14:22like caring one and people like shut up
2:14:23Kyler like you're just trying to make
2:14:24conspiracy theorists sound like noble
2:14:26and cute but it's just it's very
2:14:28interesting to me to listen to them and
2:14:30see like how they're able to take a
2:14:32couple of like half truths and a couple
2:14:34of like things that are hard to like
2:14:36gcop are weird it's crazy it's great you
2:14:38hold this thing it just always stays
2:14:39level no matter like where you put it in
2:14:41the air that's cool um and how and how
2:14:44they like craft this narrative around it
2:14:46that doesn't really make any sense but
2:14:48then when you look at like all these
2:14:51ient stories of like a bird dropping a
2:14:52whale in the ocean you're like I I
2:14:55actually get how people are creating
2:14:56these myths so but one thing I want to
2:14:59emphasize those they're not always
2:15:00creating these myths these these myths
2:15:02have such a history to them you know if
2:15:04you go read Ignatius Donnell's Atlantis
2:15:07book and then you go read Graham
2:15:09Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods
2:15:10you're going to see immediately how one
2:15:13is derivative of the other it's and and
2:15:16and if you go read Ignatius Donnell's
2:15:18Atlantis book and then read from a few
2:15:20hundred years earlier of Francis Bacon's
2:15:22the new Atlantis which is fiction by the
2:15:24way you can see the immediate parallels
2:15:27there and then you go and you read
2:15:28Plato's Atlantis and it doesn't look
2:15:31anything like any of those like there's
2:15:33no survivors in Plato's Atlantis that
2:15:35taught people technology that comes from
2:15:38Francis Bacon's fiction right which then
2:15:40gets eventually transferred to
2:15:43non-fiction well conspiracy non-fiction
2:15:45pseudo fiction or pseudo
2:15:49nonfiction Pudo archology but but you
2:15:51can actually Trace these histories of
2:15:53ideas and what's really interesting is
2:15:55how they keep adapting with uh new
2:15:58technology and new concepts of history
2:16:00and stuff like that where you know while
2:16:02Graham Hancock's Fingerprints of the
2:16:04Gods is obviously just an adaptation of
2:16:06ignatus dones Ignatius Donell was
2:16:08writing in a time period where they had
2:16:09no concept of the Ice Age it was just a
2:16:12pre flood culture so it's still a pre
2:16:15flood culture but it's now set in the
2:16:17ice age because we understand when the
2:16:19ice age was and it incorporat some newer
2:16:21sites but it still incorporates a lot of
2:16:23the exact same evidence that was used
2:16:25130 years earlier right of religious
2:16:29debate but it's it's the theory of like
2:16:30the god of the gaps where it's like well
2:16:32I can see all of this and I know that
2:16:33all of this is explained by my theory
2:16:34and then as you have more and more
2:16:36discoveries you kind of slowly have to
2:16:37whittle away at like the particular area
2:16:39that it occupies in order to make it
2:16:41adaptable but again it's because what we
2:16:43said earlier like the conclusion is
2:16:44always the conclusion and it never
2:16:46changes and you just find a new way to
2:16:47try to slot it into whatever you're
2:16:49current understanding constantly moving
2:16:50the goal posts is like the way that it
2:16:53operates and that's why like now we're
2:16:54at a point where it's just like you know
2:16:56vicious attacks against archaeologists
2:16:58on them not doing enough digging cuz
2:16:59it's like you've already lost like there
2:17:03is no evidence if you are actually
2:17:04trying to claim that this is a
2:17:06scientific theory that you are trying to
2:17:07play the game of science then by your
2:17:09own principle you have not proven it it
2:17:12is it is not proven in fact there is a
2:17:14substantial evidence against it and so
2:17:17what are you going to do now are you
2:17:18going to just keep being like well no no
2:17:19look over there or like you guys are
2:17:21hiding it it's like no like the
2:17:22conversation is done we don't have
2:17:23evidence for this we don't have evidence
2:17:25for this you know and maybe you know
2:17:27there's space to like if a discovery was
2:17:28made in the future that like did lend
2:17:30Credence to it then you reopen that file
2:17:32again but right now there's no evidence
2:17:33for it like and there should be
2:17:35extensive I cannot emphasize that enough
2:17:37how much evidence there should be for
2:17:39this like this is something huge this
2:17:41isn't being like I bet you that there is
2:17:43a civilization in the Sahara that we
2:17:45haven't discovered yet and it's like
2:17:47yeah there probably is and maybe I could
2:17:49get more specific with it maybe like a
2:17:50cover the whole of the green Sahara at
2:17:52one time or maybe it was like you know
2:17:54on some River Valley that isn't there
2:17:56anymore and like I could say that and
2:17:57then if we search that area and didn't
2:17:59find it it wouldn't be there but like
2:18:00this is the whole world or at least most
2:18:02of it where is it where is it we have
2:18:05evidence of like these tiny cultures
2:18:07that are like practically like you know
2:18:09they're like a little sliver especially
2:18:11in Europe where it's like you know oh
2:18:12great the Pomeranian face ear culture
2:18:14and what we know about them is they like
2:18:16make an earns with faces on them and
2:18:17like there you go like we know about
2:18:20them why don't we know about the guys
2:18:21that conquered the whole world it's gaps
2:18:25hence the god of the gaps hence the god
2:18:26of the gaps I just have this stupid
2:18:28image in my mind of these stupid
2:18:30Pomeranian dogs running around like
2:18:31trying to make pots I saw walking in
2:18:34here today Jesus little bastard and and
2:18:36this all survives though of course
2:18:38because they they can create this idea
2:18:40that stigmatized knowledge right and so
2:18:42like you know it's it's one of the
2:18:43things is is for some of these people
2:18:45that promote this kind of pseudo
2:18:46archaeology you can actually spot their
2:18:49lies very easily like they are just
2:18:51making [ __ ] up there's some people that
2:18:54like analyze these Stone vases and they
2:18:56say they're so perfect right it
2:18:59couldn't and then it's like well you
2:19:01look at the photo of it and like the
2:19:03handles are wonky but you're just
2:19:04measuring one thing that you're claiming
2:19:07is prefer or you look at the photo and
2:19:08it's going inside and you can see the
2:19:10hand drill marks still on the inside of
2:19:13surface right and so it's like that's
2:19:15just total [ __ ] but other people on
2:19:17the other hand it they're so consistent
2:19:18in what they say and I'd say Graham
2:19:20Hancock is one of of these where much of
2:19:22what he says you really can't I could
2:19:24see that he actually believes this cuz
2:19:25he's so consistent in it except when he
2:19:28talks about what archaeologists do so he
2:19:30has this one thing that he always says
2:19:32where it's like archaeologists when they
2:19:34dig in the Americas they always stop at
2:19:37the Clovis layer because they assume
2:19:38there's nothing below it and it's like
2:19:41dude you don't know you're clearly just
2:19:43lying here most of our Clovis points are
2:19:45found on the surface are you saying we
2:19:47don't dig below the surface it's not
2:19:48like the Earth just slowly like develops
2:19:50an even layer of soil across it like we
2:19:53also have multiple Clovis layers on a
2:19:55site that has Clovis right and so we we
2:19:58don't just assume there's nothing below
2:19:59when we find one Clovis point because
2:20:01there could be more Clovis points below
2:20:03it in the layers below and plus most of
2:20:05our sites don't even have Clovis on it
2:20:08right so we just dig down to bedrock or
2:20:10sterile soil is what we do and it's just
2:20:13like that's just a lie to show to
2:20:15present this idea that we're hiding
2:20:17stuff or we're we're unaccepting of of
2:20:19of we have these blinkers on when in
2:20:21fact we dig down to bedrock where we
2:20:24can't dig any lower right never mind no
2:20:27no but that's why the Subterranean M to
2:20:29make Minecraft there's a glitch to get
2:20:31through bedrock the and dude I've worked
2:20:34on projects where you test that Bedrock
2:20:35especially in cave sites you need to
2:20:37test whether that's cave collapse or
2:20:39whether that's Bedrock because these
2:20:41Rock shelters and caves will collapse
2:20:42and so you get out of Jackhammer and you
2:20:44test it this is what you do do you know
2:20:47it's Bedrock because basically it's like
2:20:49so hard you can't really penetrate
2:20:51much deeper is that like the is so like
2:20:53even like diamond tipped can't really
2:20:54like you can get through it like I said
2:20:56with a jackhammer or something like that
2:20:58layers and to be honest usually you have
2:21:01very sterile layers before you hit
2:21:02Bedrock anyway oh so like there's a cue
2:21:05of like there's just less and less to be
2:21:07found until you hit like this like layer
2:21:11and you even test that you get students
2:21:13to that's a shitty job to excavate stero
2:21:15layers to make sure there's nothing
2:21:17below that like we actually are very
2:21:19obessive testing this cuz we know that
2:21:22sometimes there's sterile layers that
2:21:24below it there's cultur stuff so we
2:21:26actually test that we know that in caves
2:21:28sometimes there's cave collapse so we
2:21:30test that like it's just a lie do
2:21:32sterile layers have even like plant
2:21:35matter or anything like that yeah yeah
2:21:36by sterile we mean they don't have any
2:21:39umu human stuff yeah yeah yeah okay do
2:21:41you have a feeling in general um when it
2:21:43comes to like kind of Pop science and
2:21:45everything uh and then even when it
2:21:46comes to like people that work in fields
2:21:48do you have any feelings about
2:21:49generalists versus
2:21:51Specialists I don't know what you mean
2:21:53exactly uh somebody who highly special
2:21:55so one of the big criticisms of a lot of
2:21:57Pop science is that the people that
2:21:58write are often generalists and that
2:22:00it's like their writings will be very
2:22:02multidisiplinary where they're drawing
2:22:03from a ton of different fields and then
2:22:05sometimes Specialists will come to the
2:22:06Woodworks and they'll say well you got
2:22:08this wrong and you got this wrong and
2:22:09you got this wrong and a lot of
2:22:11Specialists might be disagreeing I've
2:22:12heard some people say that people that
2:22:14write on a generalized level of things
2:22:15often times are missing a lot of the
2:22:17details that like a specialist might
2:22:18that isn't a thing I guess it comes up
2:22:20or you know strong feelings about oh I
2:22:21have strong feelings yeah I I got
2:22:23feelings about that too yeah if you want
2:22:25I can you tell hit it hit okay so uh
2:22:28look I think that General generalist
2:22:30writing for the public can be a good
2:22:32thing but often times generalist writing
2:22:34for the public somehow think that they
2:22:36actually have a an independent
2:22:38conclusion so like with archaeology you
2:22:41could think about somebody like Jared
2:22:42diamond right where he's written these
2:22:44really popular books he ain't an
2:22:45archaeologist at all and he just gets a
2:22:48lot of [ __ ] wrong yeah this is what the
2:22:50guy guns and that's guy in mind where
2:22:52lot of Specialists have come out and
2:22:53criticized like okay this is it's
2:22:55completely wrong his book collaps as
2:22:57well it just completely misrepresents
2:22:59the archaeological evidence and it's
2:23:00just like dude this is a problem if
2:23:03you're a generalist writing for the
2:23:04field you should be trying to synthesiz
2:23:06what experts have said you shouldn't be
2:23:09trying to say I know better than the
2:23:11experts he's not a pseudoscientist cuz
2:23:13he's actually a real scientist I think
2:23:15he's a geologist but uh or biologist
2:23:17that's what it is he's an ecologist and
2:23:19so it's just like but he is a
2:23:21pseudoscientist in the sense that he
2:23:22actually thinks he knows more about
2:23:24archaeology than archaeologists or
2:23:26another book of sapiens you've all know
2:23:28a Harari I think his name is same sort
2:23:30of thing he's writing at it from outside
2:23:32the field and he's trying to put
2:23:33together this new picture of the past
2:23:35and it's like you don't understand the
2:23:37picture we have right and so I I have I
2:23:40am all four non-experts communicating
2:23:43what we have for the public but they
2:23:44need to do so in a way that that
2:23:47acknowledges hey experts are the ones
2:23:49that are creating this evidence in
2:23:50creating these narratives that I'm
2:23:52making understandable for the public if
2:23:54you see what I mean and that I think is
2:23:56extremely important as an expert where I
2:23:59I'm really sick and tired this is why I
2:24:00started doing social media in the first
2:24:02place on Atlantis and pseudo science
2:24:04it's not just uh pseudo scientist that
2:24:06I'm sick and tired of it's also like
2:24:08journalists right who just misrepresent
2:24:11what we say and what we do sometimes and
2:24:13I feel like some of the greatest harm
2:24:14comes even from scientists who for
2:24:16whatever reason think that they can step
2:24:18outside of their field are and are like
2:24:19magically viewed with all the knowledge
2:24:21of another field exactly that's what
2:24:22some of these people are and it's just
2:24:24like this is a real problem here and
2:24:26this is where I really advocate for more
2:24:28experts to speak up and try to learn how
2:24:30to write and and speak in a way that's
2:24:33understandable so that we can actually
2:24:34say what we have in a fair way now when
2:24:37I speak and write about archaeology it's
2:24:39nowhere near as grandiose as these
2:24:41people cuz our stuff is not so grandiose
2:24:43our stuff is super interesting but it's
2:24:46not grandiose there isn't some super
2:24:48Theory of Everything you know like that
2:24:50explains it and when people start coming
2:24:52up with a super Theory of Everything
2:24:54sorry guys and go to a textbook instead
2:24:57is what I'd say go read renr and Bon
2:24:59archaeology that'll give you the big
2:25:00picture of archaeology in a nuanced way
2:25:02it'll be a lot more boring but it's
2:25:04going to be honest can I ask you
2:25:06actually about sapiens cuz uh that's
2:25:08actually a book I really really enjoyed
2:25:09obviously now I'm a little is there
2:25:12explicit like Miss and disinformation in
2:25:14that or like and do you have a
2:25:16recommendation of similar topic but more
2:25:18accurate then just cuz I I really liked
2:25:21the topic of sapiens and now I'm sad
2:25:24to brought up to I was like I brought it
2:25:27up as a great example of science
2:25:28communication I've been reading it too
2:25:29he's like oh God sapiens that I've
2:25:31actually not read it because I've seen
2:25:33so many really terrible reviews of it
2:25:35but it is universally panned in the
2:25:37archaeology Community I mean like
2:25:38universally there's a lot of reviews
2:25:40that experts have written and it is just
2:25:42it's not like say uh the wro and Graber
2:25:44dawn of everything which has some
2:25:45problems but it's written in a
2:25:47phenomenal anthropological and
2:25:49archaeological way and it it it it dawn
2:25:52of everything there you go yeah dawn of
2:25:53everything that's something interesting
2:25:54but I wouldn't but there's issues with
2:25:56that as well especially when it gets
2:25:57down to the specific level scr um which
2:25:59is why the problem is is when you're
2:26:01trying to write the big picture yeah
2:26:05you're going to make mistakes because as
2:26:06we've been talking about what
2:26:07Archaeology really is is very local and
2:26:10Regional and and and and and specific in
2:26:12time place if you it's actually where I
2:26:14think Graham Hancock gets something
2:26:15really right he criticizes this idea of
2:26:19of the sort of uh the progression of
2:26:21society a linear progression he's
2:26:23totally right to criticize that almost
2:26:25no archaeologist or historian believes
2:26:26in that anymore and so that's like a
2:26:28really big problem with youal is he's
2:26:29very it feels exceptionally it's very
2:26:31linear like through all places at all
2:26:33times and that was the one thing that I
2:26:35kind of picked up on reading it and I
2:26:36was like I don't know it seems it was
2:26:38it's well written the sites are real
2:26:40like you know places and like it's not
2:26:42like like misinformation in the same way
2:26:45that like you know Graham Hancock is but
2:26:47like it definitely I I was also kind of
2:26:49gathering I'm going to read some reviews
2:26:50cuz I'm curious what people with more
2:26:51experience in and a specific crique of
2:26:54some of these like linear progressions
2:26:56you could think about human evolution
2:26:57right we think of evolution in a public
2:27:00way as a sort of step-by-step
2:27:03progression from one species to another
2:27:04until we're human right and that's how
2:27:07it's presented as this family tree
2:27:09however most people that study human
2:27:11evolution today now that they've
2:27:13discovered so many more homed species
2:27:15than they ever thought they would and
2:27:16they realize now from DNA and stuff like
2:27:18that they can see sort of Ling between
2:27:21different species the analogy for it is
2:27:23no longer a tree that branches to a an
2:27:27end point which is US instead it's a
2:27:29braided stream where you have these
2:27:31populations that separate for hundreds
2:27:33of thousands tens of thousands of years
2:27:35but then they intermingle again you we
2:27:37know that with neols and Homo sapiens
2:27:39for example we see that with Denny sens
2:27:41for example and so you know everybody
2:27:43has some neander and Dennis Soven DNA
2:27:45pretty much everybody in the world and
2:27:47so it's the same thing going back you
2:27:49know millions of years into the future
2:27:50with these different hominid species
2:27:52they were geographically isolated for
2:27:54periods of time but then they came back
2:27:55together and so thinking of human
2:27:57evolution as this linear tree
2:27:59progression it's totally flawed but
2:28:01really this new braided stream concept
2:28:03is fairly new it's only in the last you
2:28:05know 15 years with being able to do this
2:28:08ancient DNA that that Scholars that
2:28:10focus on human evolution recognize it
2:28:12and so it's it's not reached the general
2:28:14public yet I would say go pay attention
2:28:16to some stuff written by Chris Stringer
2:28:18he's written really good stuff he's the
2:28:19one he's the one who really popularized
2:28:21the Out of Africa Theory and he updates
2:28:23his books regularly to make sure that
2:28:25they're up to dat on the evolution of
2:28:27humanity in a sense and so that's who
2:28:29I'd recommend to read I feel like a big
2:28:31problem with people that try to
2:28:32generalize things is when we look at
2:28:34things as humans we want coherent
2:28:36cohesive stories that follow certain
2:28:39structures and reality is often times
2:28:41just kind of more I don't want to say
2:28:43boring but there's just like a lot going
2:28:46on at all points in time and when you're
2:28:48trying to write stuff that is
2:28:50summarizing like huge swads of History
2:28:53the biggest error I think that people
2:28:54commit I don't know if this is more on
2:28:55the writer or the reader I would
2:28:57probably lean in on the writer is in an
2:28:58attempt to summarize things they don't
2:29:01caveat carefully enough that like this
2:29:03is a summary and when you look at your
2:29:05current life and you ask any question
2:29:08about your current life there's always a
2:29:10multitude of factors that influence
2:29:12everything um when I fighting in the red
2:29:14pill communities when people talk about
2:29:16like divorce rates or whatever and
2:29:18people will point to like oh well like
2:29:19who initiat a divorce more like the
2:29:21question is what does that even mean
2:29:23when you're asking that question like if
2:29:25let's say that you know like a wife
2:29:26initiates a divorce against a husband
2:29:28because the husband is hitting her is
2:29:29the wife the reason why the marriage
2:29:31ended what if we found out the husband
2:29:32was hitting the wife because the husband
2:29:33found out the wife was like trying to
2:29:35abuse their children well now is it the
2:29:36husband's fault what if the wife abuses
2:29:38the children because the like there's
2:29:40like a multitude of reasons for why any
2:29:42particular thing happens but sometimes
2:29:45um and this goes into the uh I think it
2:29:47was with you we spoke I spoke about like
2:29:49citation errors
2:29:50people sence of book or whatever and
2:29:53people have a difficult
2:29:55timeing magnitude to a particular
2:29:58sentence they read where if you say
2:30:00something like uh this war happened um
2:30:03because of like this Factor people are
2:30:05like oh that was it I like no there's
2:30:07probably a whole bunch of different
2:30:09things going reasons but then the issue
2:30:11is that and and then this is the issue
2:30:13that this is a really good it's a really
2:30:14good uh it's really good to create
2:30:16documentaries this way it's really bad
2:30:17to write history this way when you're
2:30:18looking at a multitude of events want to
2:30:20find like this through line of like
2:30:22here's a really cool story I can tell
2:30:24about World War II but if you just watch
2:30:26one person's journey through World War
2:30:27II you're going to have all the biases
2:30:29and and and bad thoughts that they had
2:30:31that that person had right but if you
2:30:32want to tell the totality of a story
2:30:35what are you going to go over every
2:30:36vehicle every death every thought
2:30:38every you have to leave out so much but
2:30:41when you're trying to write these like a
2:30:43a a documentary of all of human history
2:30:46well you probably have some idea in mind
2:30:47at the start of what you want it to look
2:30:49like and when you're picking and
2:30:50choosing facts going from time period to
2:30:52time period you're probably going to be
2:30:53more like leaning into the things that
2:30:55you want to tell the story of but then
2:30:56when somebody reads your work at the end
2:30:59nobody sees like the film on The Cutting
2:31:01Room floor of of the film that you've
2:31:03created of all of human history and now
2:31:05in their mind it you you're not giving
2:31:07me like this is your story of human
2:31:10history now you've collapsed human
2:31:12history to their story is everything and
2:31:15people just don't I feel like sometimes
2:31:16and I probably fault the writer more the
2:31:18writer isn't explaining how much times
2:31:20is being left on the floor in all the
2:31:22editorial decisions they've made and now
2:31:24people are walk away thinking like oh
2:31:25well I know this happened because of
2:31:27that and this happened because of that
2:31:28and this and that's why we have to do
2:31:30this and it's like yeah I mean it's why
2:31:32I said look if you're going to do Public
2:31:33Communication as a scientist or a
2:31:34scholar you're go your job is not to
2:31:37make things simple your job is to make
2:31:38them understandable cuz it's not simple
2:31:42and you're being dishonest to the
2:31:43subject matter if you're oversimplifying
2:31:46I mean it's fine for children right
2:31:47you're trying to you know especially
2:31:49like you know you're teaching the we do
2:31:52this in University level you know the
2:31:53very intro archaeology course you're
2:31:55just trying to give people a sort of big
2:31:57picture and as they get more advanced in
2:31:59their courses you're trying to make that
2:32:01complex right and so but if you if you
2:32:03if you're going to have be honest with
2:32:05the public you have to you have to show
2:32:07that complexity is you have to show that
2:32:09Nuance you have to show that it's not so
2:32:11simple uh but it is still really
2:32:13interesting in you need to make it
2:32:15understandable you know and that's
2:32:16that's the challenge I think for
2:32:17everybody um for generalists and
2:32:19specialist even um is to represent
2:32:22things in a fair way if that makes sense
2:32:25MH yeah um I'm super curious um do you
2:32:30know any of the leading theories this is
2:32:31going to be like a simple archaeology
2:32:33question uh you talked about like how
2:32:35there's a whole bunch of different homo
2:32:37uh species um that kind of have ebed and
2:32:39flowed and in and intermingled do you
2:32:41know the leading theory of why it's kind
2:32:43of just us now like where do you know
2:32:45where the rest went I imagine it's a
2:32:48heterogenous answer depending on the the
2:32:49species but in general like What's led
2:32:52to so many different collapses of
2:32:54species that were kind of the only ones
2:32:56left as far as the homo Lage why are
2:32:58there so many Charizards and no
2:32:59charmanders that's the question okay I
2:33:02mean look I I think that it's a question
2:33:03of how we Define us in many ways we all
2:33:06have neander Hall DNA we all have Denny
2:33:08Sven DNA also that was linear
2:33:09progression so no you're wa that's one
2:33:12of theard and Charmander in like they're
2:33:14before us and we're after but it's
2:33:16actually more like there's Charizard
2:33:17blue and Charizard red and Charizard
2:33:19purle and Charizard
2:33:22shiny charizard red is the only one left
2:33:25right now yeah one of the common
2:33:26Arguments for why Evolution can't be
2:33:27real I don't know if religious people
2:33:28Ser this but they talk about like the
2:33:29missing links like why don't we have all
2:33:31these different links between or these
2:33:33concept now that that that fla tree
2:33:36concept right and so we actually you
2:33:38know that's the whole key is we're now
2:33:39realizing that what being human is is
2:33:42much more complicated you know because
2:33:44we all and I mean everybody in the world
2:33:46has neander lineage everybody in the
2:33:48world has Denny lineage right and so
2:33:52because of that the neats have not
2:33:54disappeared they're part of us if you
2:33:56see what I mean and it's and so that
2:33:58then comp makes questions about the
2:34:01difference between the anals and Homo
2:34:02sapiens far more complicated we know
2:34:04that they are different populations of
2:34:06humans but clearly NE Andals were humans
2:34:08too if you see what I mean very very
2:34:10clearly they were and so you know
2:34:13there's a big debate over that very
2:34:15topic um and and what's interesting is
2:34:17we've now found individuals that you
2:34:19know it was only you know like people
2:34:21individuals from tens of thousands of
2:34:23years ago who had a a neander
2:34:25grandparent and a homo sapiens
2:34:27grandparent that close to that
2:34:28intermingling if you see what I mean and
2:34:31so uh so as we get more of this DNA from
2:34:34different uh ancestral populations we'll
2:34:36be able to answer those questions more
2:34:38specifically but uh you know there's
2:34:40leading there's different hypotheses
2:34:42over how Neals and Homo sapiens for
2:34:44example uh came together right was it
2:34:47violence or was it just the fact that uh
2:34:50humans by the time they meet met Neals
2:34:53had had had different adaptations which
2:34:55meant they had a larger population size
2:34:58so that when they absorb neols into
2:35:00their population it was just
2:35:03the there more sapiens DNA in the
2:35:05population that resulted if you see what
2:35:07I mean and so there's a lot of people
2:35:09that work on modeling this I don't know
2:35:10actually what the up-to-date stuff is
2:35:12but uh you know every single time it's
2:35:14really tough to get DNA that that that
2:35:17is that old DNA degrades even one of the
2:35:19I'm working on I sent off what like 60
2:35:22animal teeth to a lab to get DNA only
2:35:25one of them had DNA for replication and
2:35:27that's only from 2,500 years ago we're
2:35:30talking about remains from tens of
2:35:32thousands of years ago and you know DNA
2:35:34technology by the way is also you have
2:35:36to be very careful with ancient DNA
2:35:38because the techniques and methods have
2:35:40changed drastically in the last 5 10
2:35:42years this sort of Next Generation
2:35:44sequencing is what it's called where the
2:35:46way that they piece together ancient
2:35:48genomes is so different they're using
2:35:49shorter strands which means they can get
2:35:51more of it it also means that they might
2:35:53get more incomplete pictures sometimes
2:35:54of it and it also means that they can
2:35:56exclude sort of modern uh contamination
2:35:59because those are going to be longer
2:36:00less degraded strands and so with this
2:36:03next Generation sequencing everything we
2:36:05know about ancient DNA is in the process
2:36:07of being completely Rewritten because
2:36:09we're being it's also much cheaper and
2:36:11we are being swarmed and swamped with
2:36:13new genomes to be able to tell the story
2:36:15of humanity of different animals and
2:36:17plants and things like that as well yes
2:36:19find the civilization yeah so there
2:36:22there's another example of like you know
2:36:24something that is actively changing that
2:36:26we will like we've just kind of broken
2:36:28into the field of it and are like are
2:36:30are like the we have not like really hit
2:36:33the plateau yet because there is more
2:36:35technology being discovered that lets us
2:36:36do it even better you know so instead of
2:36:39talking about it like oh the you know
2:36:41there's going to be some discovery that
2:36:42suddenly changes all of archaeology it's
2:36:44like no there's like things like this
2:36:46are going to be what change archaeology
2:36:48we're like there is now new technology
2:36:49that allows us to you know get more
2:36:51information from like less pieces and
2:36:54like things like that like that is
2:36:55genuinely going to make huge changes
2:36:57it's not going to prove a lost Advanced
2:36:58civilization but like stuff like this is
2:37:00happening and it's really frustrating
2:37:01when a lot of like the pseudo crowd kind
2:37:03of they talk about these big changes so
2:37:06much that like it almost muddies the
2:37:08water so much that we can't even talk
2:37:09about these things that are like really
2:37:11happening and really are going to make
2:37:12big changes in the archaeology world
2:37:14because they breed this mentality that
2:37:15like we are hidebound and we think that
2:37:17this is the way it always is going to be
2:37:19and it's never going to change and this
2:37:20is it we figured it all out like no
2:37:22nobody thinks that way you know and
2:37:23these changes are exciting and they're
2:37:25happening right now like this is going
2:37:26to be a new golden age and just to give
2:37:27a a sense of context of how important
2:37:29this change in DNA sequencing is is it's
2:37:32not just for understanding human DNA and
2:37:33being able to go further back it means
2:37:35we can look at say DNA from the dental
2:37:38calculus on animals and humans and we
2:37:41can actually understand their oral
2:37:42microbiome to understand the kind of
2:37:44pathogens they're they're that they're
2:37:46infected with so we're you know we're
2:37:48actually able to Johan Krauss and others
2:37:50are tracing the the the the yenia pesus
2:37:53so the black plague back thousands of
2:37:56years and being able to trace where
2:37:57that's going in prehistory from Dental
2:38:00plaque right or another big change is
2:38:02we're able to get DNA from sediment
2:38:05human DNA sometimes but also plants and
2:38:07animals and so you say well we should
2:38:09dig all of a site well dude then we'll
2:38:11never be able to test the DNA of that
2:38:13sediment in the future and so you know
2:38:15we're able to get a different picture of
2:38:16ecology therefore from DNA in
2:38:23wees
2:38:25and it's not just DNA Isotopes as well
2:38:28this is what I do I actually think
2:38:29Isotopes are in many ways more
2:38:31interesting than DNA because nobody
2:38:33knows about them they they they keep a
2:38:35record of sort of what you eat and what
2:38:37you drink and so what that means is and
2:38:39for animals too and plants and so what
2:38:41that means is you can see that since
2:38:43your teeth grow when you're a child and
2:38:45you compare the Isotopes in your teeth
2:38:46to the Isotopes in your bones you can
2:38:48see how some somebody migrated because
2:38:50the geological signature from the
2:38:51groundwater is different or you can look
2:38:54at what they actually consume the kind
2:38:55of food that they're eating which shows
2:38:57up in the carbon and nitrogen isotope
2:38:59signatures and what's really freaking
2:39:01cool is if you sort of sample linearly
2:39:04on a tooth mostly animals but you can do
2:39:06it on in sizers and canines for humans
2:39:09you can actually using oxygen Isotopes
2:39:11understand the season that that sample
2:39:14comes from like winter versus Summer
2:39:15versus spring and you can therefore
2:39:17understand where people season moving
2:39:20around were they eating different foods
2:39:22during different seasons and how does
2:39:24that manifest itself so the kind of
2:39:26resolution we have right now is just
2:39:28like you know it's night and day
2:39:30different from you know what we used to
2:39:32have um and so it's just it's
2:39:34revolutionizing everything in that sense
2:39:36one of the uh videos that I did was on
2:39:37rupan Lake which is a site in um the
2:39:40Himalayas where they found all these
2:39:41skeletons in a lake it's a super flashy
2:39:43site everyone always talks about it it's
2:39:45super you know grotesque and mysterious
2:39:47looking and they did a bunch of you know
2:39:48DNA analysis of it trying to figure out
2:39:50like where these people are from they
2:39:51ended up finding that it was like two or
2:39:53three different groups that died there
2:39:54at different times and that was one of
2:39:55the things they were talking about in it
2:39:56was doing the isotope sequencing and
2:39:58being able to tell not only where they
2:40:00were from based on DNA but on the
2:40:01Isotopes in their teeth because their
2:40:03diets were different so they were able
2:40:04to tell that one group of these people
2:40:06came from like the Mediterranean because
2:40:07they had a bunch of like fish in their
2:40:09diet and like they could they all ate
2:40:10different grains and it's like these are
2:40:12people in the middle of the Himalayan
2:40:13Mountains like that's pretty far from
2:40:14the ocean you know so like it's it's
2:40:16really interesting to look at those
2:40:17things and like there's so much
2:40:19information you can get out of it so
2:40:20like I know we sound like a broken
2:40:22record with this but like that's why we
2:40:23don't excavate all these sites because
2:40:25like we didn't have this technology 5 10
2:40:2820 years ago and like at least not at
2:40:30the developed point that it is now so
2:40:32like there's going to be continually
2:40:33better technology that will be able to
2:40:35tell us more and more that's one of the
2:40:36reasons why I'm so fascinated by oty I
2:40:37mentioned him yesterday the reason I
2:40:39really got like he was the first thing
2:40:40that really got me into archaeology and
2:40:42that's the wet mummy that's the wet
2:40:43mummy yes so the Ice Man the ice man see
2:40:46the icean so he the the thing that is
2:40:48really amazing about is because of how
2:40:50unbelievably well preserved he is they
2:40:52can like piece together like the last
2:40:55like 48 Plus hours of his life like
2:40:58really well like what he ate he ate and
2:41:01the one that really stands out to me not
2:41:02only can they tell like all of the last
2:41:03meals that he ate but they can tell that
2:41:05he climbed up and down the mountain like
2:41:08two or three times before dying because
2:41:10of the pollen clung to his clothes and
2:41:12like hair like they can look at this
2:41:13they know he died in like the late
2:41:15spring because of the pollen that was
2:41:17out like they could tell so much and
2:41:18this was a mummy that was discovered in
2:41:19the 9s like more has been done but like
2:41:22can you imagine if we found something
2:41:23like that now like we I am sure we could
2:41:25have got even more information than we
2:41:27did and granted we are so lucky he is
2:41:29amazingly well preserved they did a
2:41:30wonderful job preserving the context and
2:41:32like getting all the artifacts to a safe
2:41:34location so we can continue to study
2:41:35them but like it's an absolutely
2:41:37fascinating you know case study in being
2:41:40able to look at like one individual you
2:41:42know we're not looking at a king we're
2:41:44not looking at a leader and I think
2:41:45that's really what stuck out to me about
2:41:46him is like he was just a guy there's a
2:41:48lot of theories that he was someone
2:41:49really important because he had a copper
2:41:50axe which like copper would have been
2:41:52pretty hard to come by at that point but
2:41:53like we have no idea if he was important
2:41:56or not like he was a dude he wore you
2:41:58know some woven shoes he had a quiver on
2:42:00his back and a bow and arrow and a and a
2:42:02and a hatchet and like he died in the
2:42:04mountains being shot in the back we
2:42:05don't know anything about him and like
2:42:07but we do we can piece together like it
2:42:09is it's like a forensic case like it is
2:42:10literally a 5,000 year old Cold Case of
2:42:13someone who was murdered and you can
2:42:14look at like where he went what he ate
2:42:17you can piece together the last 48 hours
2:42:18of his life thanks to the scientific you
2:42:20know research and capabilities we have
2:42:22at our disposal it's amazing I think it
2:42:24also shows probably the importance of
2:42:25context too because even questions like
2:42:27that could change where you find
2:42:28somebody's teeth and you think that
2:42:30maybe they migrated for a diet but maybe
2:42:31you discover some other thing and you're
2:42:33like oh actually they were trading with
2:42:34people that were bringing food from this
2:42:35area too so they didn't actually migrate
2:42:38cont yeah yeah that actually happens a
2:42:40lot cuz we can do this on Plants as well
2:42:42so you can actually test the plants for
2:42:43the Isotopes like if you have charred
2:42:45remains of wheat or something like that
2:42:47they're importing that stuff right you
2:42:48know so like yeah you can find that kind
2:42:50of that stuff very clearly yeah um again
2:42:54really random question how do you how
2:42:56does like the field feel about like 23
2:42:57and me and these type of like
2:43:00genealogy uh websites it's [ __ ] it's
2:43:03all [ __ ] for like lots of reasons um
2:43:06one of the key reasons is is like look
2:43:09at it the scale of your ancestry is so
2:43:14you have what half of the DNA of your
2:43:16parents a quarter of your grandparents
2:43:19an eighth of your great-grandparents uh
2:43:21so on and so forth once you go back like
2:43:2315 Generations you actually are missing
2:43:27the vast majority of the DNA signatures
2:43:29from each of your ancestors if you see
2:43:31what I mean and so they can't
2:43:32reconstruct that it's actually you know
2:43:34the the the human ISO point so the iso
2:43:37point is where you can tell that that
2:43:39everybody in a population shares the
2:43:41same ancestors you might have different
2:43:44inputs from different ancestors
2:43:45statistically but everybody shares the
2:43:47exact same ancestors so for Europeans
2:43:50the iso point is about a thousand years
2:43:52ago which means that every single person
2:43:54alive a thousand years ago in Europe
2:43:57that has passed on DNA to today every
2:44:01European has those exact same ancestors
2:44:03the human isop point for all of humanity
2:44:05is just a few thousand years ago and so
2:44:07we all share the same ancestry we are
2:44:09actually extremely closely related and
2:44:12so these kind of DNA tests they tell
2:44:15this very interesting fiction if you see
2:44:17what I mean that ignores all the
2:44:19diversity and interrelatedness because
2:44:21of all of our ancestral intermingling
2:44:23that has happened and uh the other issue
2:44:25that I find with this kind of uh studies
2:44:28is they mostly take account of modern
2:44:30DNA so what it is actually telling you
2:44:33is your DNA statistically is similar to
2:44:36Modern people in Ireland not necessarily
2:44:39similar to ancient people in Ireland if
2:44:41you see that's what I was going to say
2:44:42because I was going to say and I'd have
2:44:43to read them more particularly because
2:44:44I've never done one of these before but
2:44:46I I don't know if I would say that it's
2:44:47[ __ ] or they're bad it's just
2:44:49yeah it's understanding what exactly
2:44:51they're telling you which is all they're
2:44:53doing when they do these things I feel
2:44:54like they say on but maybe they don't
2:44:55all they're doing when they do these
2:44:56things is your DNA based on the sample
2:44:58that we did um seems like it matches
2:45:01people that are also testing from like
2:45:03this area and that's it that's people
2:45:05interpret that as 2 million years
2:45:08ago yeah exactly and when in fact that's
2:45:11not the fraking case at all because if
2:45:13you look at the archaeology of Ireland
2:45:15you can see changes in population
2:45:17structure over time the Irish population
2:45:20was not the same if you see what I mean
2:45:23there's new people coming there's other
2:45:24people dying there's who chooses to
2:45:26reproduce and leave you know there's all
2:45:28this kind of stuff that goes in there
2:45:30and the reality the history of humanity
2:45:31is one of just intermingling in the end
2:45:34you know I think I think from you know
2:45:36like a just from a mere interest
2:45:38perspective I I did you know An ancestry
2:45:40thing a little while ago because I was
2:45:41curious cuz I know my dad's ancestry
2:45:43very well but my Mom was adopted and we
2:45:44don't know very much about where her
2:45:46like parents were from so I was like
2:45:47okay like I'll be able to like I know
2:45:48what my dad is so I can look at the
2:45:50other half and at least figure out like
2:45:51where her parents were from so I know my
2:45:53dad is like fully Italian so I was like
2:45:54whatever the other 50% is will probably
2:45:56be that Well turns out I'm 80% Italian
2:45:58so I was like okay that's pretty safe to
2:46:00assume one of her parents was probably
2:46:01also fully Italian and there's you know
2:46:03a little bit of Greek a little bit of
2:46:04Polish a little bit of something else
2:46:05sprinkled in there um but like that was
2:46:06kind of interesting to be able to get
2:46:07that and then you know extrapolating
2:46:09that out to kind of what you're talking
2:46:10about like that is like modern
2:46:12semi-modern Italian like people who live
2:46:14there now like probably a very small
2:46:16part of that data or that DNA goes back
2:46:18to like Romans you know like cuz Italy
2:46:21was like people came into it after the
2:46:23collapse of the Roman Empire there was
2:46:24like Germanic speaking people that came
2:46:25in and people came from Greece and this
2:46:27and that and the other so like yeah my
2:46:28DNA lines up very well with like modern
2:46:31populations in like Central southern
2:46:33Italy and like that is probably where
2:46:35for the last 3 400 years my you know
2:46:37ancestors were but like that doesn't
2:46:38mean that like you know my ancestors
2:46:40were you know uh Roman gladiators or
2:46:42something that as cool as that would be
2:46:43so we do politics here hold on so CU I
2:46:45can't let you get away with that cuz you
2:46:47showed us your 23 me that 50% we saw was
2:46:50like 100 miles off the west coast of the
2:46:52United States actually for so much of it
2:46:54it's interesting that now you're uh
2:46:56denying your atlantian heritage but okay
2:46:59yeah yeah you know yeah I I I'm I'm I'm
2:47:02falsifying the evidence here man I'm a
2:47:03scientist that's what I do so if you
2:47:05take a 23 and me and it says like you're
2:47:0780% from France or anything like that
2:47:09it's probably reasonable to assume that
2:47:11the last four generations of you
2:47:12probably immigrated from France or was
2:47:14from France but it's probably not much
2:47:16deeper than like 70 to 80 years back in
2:47:18your family history or 120 years like
2:47:21it's really it's not going much deeper
2:47:23than that if that and there's obviously
2:47:25confusing signatures there as well
2:47:26because not everybody in France has the
2:47:28same DNA right and so like it's sort of
2:47:31like well what it means is you're 80%
2:47:34similar to people in France today but
2:47:37potentially it's the case where your
2:47:40ancestor actually came from Italy but
2:47:42they had similar DNA to somebody from
2:47:44France if you see what I mean and so cuz
2:47:46that's the kind of stuff that it can't
2:47:48detect is the the it's it's it's it's
2:47:50homogenizing what is actually a fair
2:47:53Fairly heterogeneous group you know it's
2:47:55sort of saying this is French DNA but of
2:47:57course people living in Italy or Russia
2:47:59had some French DNA they're just the
2:48:01exception to the rule in that area if
2:48:03you see what I mean and so that's where
2:48:05it becomes tricky comparing you to an
2:48:07aggregate essentially and so it it just
2:48:09means you are similar closely related to
2:48:12people in France now on average who's in
2:48:14France now yeah gotcha you guys do you
2:48:17have any other questions or anything oh
2:48:19no I'm good yeah shout out your social
2:48:21we had a question for you that we came
2:48:23up with last oh yes we do T-rex that's
2:48:26my favorite dinosaur that's such a
2:48:29that's such an exceptionally Norm
2:48:31dinosaur to pick look a lot of what
2:48:33we've been talking about is between
2:48:35yesterday's interviews and today is sort
2:48:38of this issue of pseudo science and
2:48:39pseudo archaeology and conspiracism and
2:48:41stuff like that you guys have your
2:48:43finger on the pulse of modern culture in
2:48:45a very different way than we do why do
2:48:47you guys see this as is becoming so much
2:48:49more popular and prevalent right
2:48:52now I think there are a lot of different
2:48:55issues at play I think one of the
2:48:57largest issues is that our lives have
2:48:59become so unbelievably complicated that
2:49:01the further you're divorced from a
2:49:03process the easier it is to kind of
2:49:04slide in conspiratorial thinking into
2:49:06what's going on nobody would ever wonder
2:49:09if their Abacus is tracking their daily
2:49:11movements or is showing them ads based
2:49:13on what they've said but nobody knows
2:49:15how a phone works so it's a lot easier
2:49:17to insert know conspiratorial thinking
2:49:19there when you just don't know the
2:49:21process you know there are a lot of
2:49:22people who um like they might imagine
2:49:24the way that a police investigation or
2:49:26the FDA approv something or whatever
2:49:28where they can they don't they just
2:49:29don't know any of the process and if you
2:49:31don't know it and then if somebody else
2:49:33is willing to feed you a particular
2:49:34conspiracy and when that conspiracy
2:49:36makes the world really easy to
2:49:37understand like very clear very easy you
2:49:39know it's us and then them and them 95%
2:49:42of the time is the Jews but like it's
2:49:44some other guy that's like pulling the
2:49:45strings it just it organizes Society in
2:49:47a very easy to understand way me one
2:49:49thing to be upset about um often times a
2:49:51thing that is totally out of my control
2:49:52so I don't really have to worry about it
2:49:53or take any actions against it um I
2:49:55remember the only time I've ever heard
2:49:57or gotten Alex Jones to shut up his
2:49:59entire life is when we were in Austin at
2:50:01um at some event and after he did his
2:50:03whole ramble about how the elections are
2:50:05rigged and the media is riged I think I
2:50:06asked like what do you want your
2:50:07audience to do about this and it took it
2:50:09was like a good 5sec silence where it's
2:50:10like cuz there's like what the are you
2:50:12even selling people like there's nothing
2:50:13that you can can do about getting people
2:50:15mad yeah there's literally no cuz why
2:50:17even fight against anything and that's
2:50:18like my TW now is I'm basically saying
2:50:19like man you know I think we should all
2:50:21the conservatives should protest the
2:50:22election and just not vote because
2:50:23what's the point they're going to rig it
2:50:24anyway right just stay home right yeah I
2:50:27think that that it's that concept of not
2:50:29understanding how anything works so it's
2:50:31easy to insert conspiracies and then
2:50:33it's the that the world has become so
2:50:34complicated and we've solved to be fair
2:50:37and I know there are different people
2:50:38for different Reas don't want to take
2:50:38things we've solved a lot of really
2:50:40simple problems we've solved a lot of
2:50:42the simple sexism and the simple racism
2:50:44in the United States and the way that it
2:50:45manifests now is a lot more difficult to
2:50:48to like wrap your hands around you know
2:50:51lynching is obviously bad um policing a
2:50:55neighborhood more that might have a
2:50:56demographic that's more uh prevalent in
2:50:59it that is doing drugs that should or
2:51:00shouldn't be a legal H that's this's a
2:51:01lot more challenging of a question to
2:51:03answer right lynching is indefensible
2:51:05basically on its own you can't these
2:51:07other things require a lot more
2:51:09attention to detail so you can't be an
2:51:11expert in everything um the media has
2:51:13failed us alternative media especially
2:51:16by the way has failed us tremendously
2:51:18and um yeah and people want simple
2:51:20answers and simple ways to understand
2:51:21the world what do you mean by
2:51:22alternative media alternative media is
2:51:25garbage because it's taken the worst
2:51:27parts of mainstream media and it has
2:51:30made that the entirety of what it does
2:51:32every accusation that Al oh well these
2:51:34guys are biased and they don't tell both
2:51:36sides of story Al a million times worse
2:51:39I see what you mean um yeah and
2:51:40alternative media for all of its faults
2:51:42at least has one thing that's a little
2:51:43bit more important that alternative
2:51:45elect and that's accountability lack of
2:51:46accountability and no accountability
2:51:47mechanisms and media means you can just
2:51:49lie lie lie lie lie lie lie about
2:51:51everything and it never really comes
2:51:52back to bite you um whereas mainstream
2:51:54media even Fox News got hit with that
2:51:55massive Dominion lawsuit or when they
2:51:57mess up you know people get mad and
2:51:59people f are fired right Tim poool is
2:52:01never getting fired from the Tim poool
2:52:02show Dave Rubin is never getting fired
2:52:03from the Dave Ruben show Tucker Carlson
2:52:05can get fired from fox nose that's an
2:52:07important distinction I think but yeah
2:52:08there's there's like 15 other things
2:52:10that also play into it but I would say
2:52:11broadly speaking it's complexity of
2:52:13society complexity of the problems
2:52:15people want a simple narrative and
2:52:16there's a lot of money to be made
2:52:17selling you that simple narrative for
2:52:18things that people don't understand that
2:52:20that's a really good response that's a
2:52:21really good response and it is it's that
2:52:22like you know we talked about the Hasty
2:52:24generalization fallacy yesterday where
2:52:25it's like things you don't want things
2:52:28to be complicated I just want to be able
2:52:29to understand it like it's too much to
2:52:32think about how how complex Archaeology
2:52:34is and how complex every culture at
2:52:36every time has ever been so it's easier
2:52:37to just be like there was one big one
2:52:39and all the major ones came from that
2:52:41one big one and I can digest that I
2:52:43don't need to have you know an
2:52:45understanding of bone you know history
2:52:48from ancient Greece in order to know how
2:52:50to digest that I can just be told that
2:52:51and I'm like ah I get it now cool and
2:52:54then I can go on with my day it's so
2:52:55much easier to you know look at you know
2:52:57the the the media is lying to you than
2:52:59it is to like have to think about every
2:53:01single thing they're saying and look at
2:53:02the sources for it and look at the
2:53:03evidence for it just be like n the
2:53:05archaeologists are lying and they're all
2:53:06in cahoots to keep you in the dark and
2:53:07it's like okay cool now I don't have to
2:53:09look critically at anything you know I
2:53:10also I wish that there's so much now
2:53:12that's worn anesthetic because people
2:53:14are envious of the the the the the um
2:53:18the norm ativity of the function of the
2:53:20aesthetic so somebody will talk about
2:53:22truth or logic or Reason okay um now the
2:53:25the function of these things ideally is
2:53:28to deliver some true statement that that
2:53:29you can then utilize in some way to
2:53:31improve your life right you have science
2:53:32and discoveries from science lead to
2:53:34technology and Technology improves Our
2:53:35Lives ideally right or helps us kill
2:53:37each other better depending on what side
2:53:38of technolog improves the lives of the
2:53:40people shooting the other people right
2:53:42whoever left yeah so for truth and logic
2:53:44and reason okay that function yields a
2:53:47desirable aesthetic I want to be seen as
2:53:50somebody that's truthful um because
2:53:52truth delivers these things but the
2:53:53problem is so many people wield just the
2:53:55aesthetic with none of the functionality
2:53:57so that they can have all of the
2:53:59normativity all the goodness of that
2:54:00that's why like it's so funny today if
2:54:02somebody has truth or logic or Reason as
2:54:05like the channel title you know these
2:54:07are always the number one purveyors of
2:54:09[ __ ] pseudo information project
2:54:10verit doesn't veritas mean truth yeah or
2:54:14yeah it's always the number one pveers
2:54:16of misinformation and there are so many
2:54:18people who and I wish that it was so
2:54:19easy to see through Candace Owens people
2:54:21will come out and they'll say things
2:54:22like you know I've been really curious
2:54:24about you know 6 million 6 million and
2:54:29I'm like let's assume that you are why
2:54:31have you been curious about this for
2:54:32three years pick up a [ __ ] book you
2:54:35know other people have had these
2:54:37questions like this isn't
2:54:39an never in my life has a person come to
2:54:42me and they're like I'm really curious
2:54:43about XYZ conspiracy and here's the
2:54:46three or four different books I've read
2:54:47on the subject and here the question
2:54:48it's never that it's like here's the two
2:54:50or three tweets I've read why not if
2:54:52you're actually curious why not go read
2:54:53about
2:54:54it any kind of research yeah exactly and
2:54:57that's it's frustrating it's just it's
2:54:59it's an aesthetic like oh I'm curious
2:55:00about this thing jacking off right just
2:55:02asking questions right go do some
2:55:03homework then it's your job and that's
2:55:05the thing is like it is so it's so
2:55:07harmful like it really is and like they
2:55:09they're able to Veil it under this guise
2:55:11of the just asking questions thing so it
2:55:13allows you to just get away with
2:55:15anything like you don't have to say that
2:55:17thing about you know the six million you
2:55:18just have to like ask the question and
2:55:20it's like whoa whoa whoa well I'm not
2:55:22saying that like that would be a
2:55:23complete overstep but like I'm just
2:55:25putting it out there and then you go to
2:55:27the comments and it's like swasa swasa
2:55:29swasa swasa swas and that's the problem
2:55:31is this plausible deniability it is I'm
2:55:34not a liar cuz I'm just asking a
2:55:35question and it's like but the way you
2:55:37phrased it youing said it dude and the
2:55:39worst thing too is what you said about
2:55:42um what Flint said about technology
2:55:43improving and they being exciting things
2:55:45one of the saddest things I found is
2:55:47that we can't be excited about or take
2:55:49credit for anything anymore um even
2:55:51things that like we should have a lot of
2:55:53Pride over you talked about how DNA is
2:55:55difficult to study um RNA dissolves if
2:55:57you look at it it's like tenaciously
2:56:00like unstable molecule everything Rel to
2:56:03it the idea that we found a way to
2:56:05encapsulate this and these like lipid
2:56:07nanop particles and eject this into a
2:56:08body to deliver like things for like
2:56:10vaccines this is a really cool invention
2:56:13it's cool because it involves a lot of
2:56:15general research it's like three decades
2:56:16of research that's been like uh highly
2:56:19commercialized by like a capitalist
2:56:20entity that was highly globalized and
2:56:22worked across different like countries
2:56:23Bion Tech was a German company like this
2:56:25is a really cool like this is a human
2:56:27mankind achievement a uniquely human man
2:56:30uniquely globalist one a uniquely
2:56:31capitalist one all things that America
2:56:33you know kind of stands for and nobody
2:56:35can take credit for that and ever
2:56:36because now it's all like every every
2:56:38single new discovery and every single
2:56:39new thing is just it's they're lying
2:56:41it's all part of the with conspiratorial
2:56:43nonsense and it's like yeah because it's
2:56:45hard to understand it goes back to that
2:56:46thing you said earlier where it's like I
2:56:48don't know how vaccines like I know how
2:56:50vaccines work but like I don't I
2:56:52couldn't make a vaccine if you put me in
2:56:54a room with all the things you need to
2:56:56make a vaccine I couldn't make one I
2:56:57couldn't tell you the real like science
2:56:59behind it but like I trust there's a lot
2:57:01of people involved in it who know what
2:57:03they're doing but like because I don't
2:57:05know how to do it because I don't have
2:57:07my hands on every part of it it's like
2:57:08the Abacus I can do math on an abacus
2:57:10but on my phone it's a little bit more
2:57:12complicated I don't know the like the
2:57:13fundamental ins and ins and outs of it
2:57:15and because of that humans can be really
2:57:17distrusted and so that just gives any
2:57:19ground and the reason we can't take
2:57:20credit for anything today is because
2:57:22everything we do is now at that level of
2:57:24complexity you look at a plane in the
2:57:25sky and it's Chemtrails and it's like
2:57:28man that's condensation it's a giant
2:57:30engine like are you kidding me and like
2:57:32it's really hard to be able to
2:57:34rationalize those things and so it's a
2:57:36lot easier to like if you tried to sit
2:57:38down and explain to someone why there's
2:57:40like you know condensation behind a
2:57:42plane like that's going to take a lot
2:57:44longer than me saying like it's
2:57:45Chemtrails and the Jews by the way and
2:57:48explain that the person that's arguing
2:57:49on the other end has the next conspiracy
2:57:50theory like up completely yeah like
2:57:52you've already lost once you start
2:57:53wasting your breath I think the biggest
2:57:55problem is is this breakdown in trust
2:57:57right you know like all of science is
2:57:59built upon trust the only way to advance
2:58:02in science is to trust what your
2:58:04colleagues are publishing and obviously
2:58:06we find examples of Bad actors that have
2:58:08created forgeries or have misrepresented
2:58:10data and stuff like that but that's like
2:58:12such a tiny subset of what Scholars do
2:58:15in the end the only way we can advance
2:58:17is I have to trust your reporting of
2:58:19that excavation or of that experiment or
2:58:22of whatever your observations are that's
2:58:24the only way yes I can then test that to
2:58:26make sure that it's replicable in a
2:58:28sense I could go and re excavate the
2:58:30part of the site you didn't excavate I
2:58:31could go study that material I could
2:58:33check what your photos are and what your
2:58:34data is but at the same time everything
2:58:36is built upon trust and this entire New
2:58:39Movement is built upon breaking down
2:58:41that trust a little bit I I would I
2:58:43would I used to say that but I think
2:58:44it's more malicious unfortunately and I
2:58:46notice this when I argue with people
2:58:47it's not a breakdown of trust it's a
2:58:49selective application of trust and the
2:58:50furtherance of a particular narrative
2:58:52because if I'm arguing with somebody
2:58:53about foreign policy and I site
2:58:55something from uh you know like the CIA
2:58:57or the US state department I'm
2:58:59immediately called a shill and they'll
2:59:00argue against me posting links from
2:59:01Russia
2:59:03Today what do you mean you trust them
2:59:05but not are you trusting this but not
2:59:07this right and it's yeah and then and I
2:59:08think that the I think the major fault
2:59:10right now lies with um probably some
2:59:13mainstream but a lot of alternative
2:59:14media creators like in talking to Jordan
2:59:17Peterson like him saying like well 20%
2:59:19excess deaths Europe the vaccines and
2:59:21it's like how could you even like
2:59:22suggest that without that was such a
2:59:24tremendous claim or talking about like
2:59:26theirs and it's like this you were like
2:59:27a I don't know if you got a doctor like
2:59:29physician but I know at the very least
2:59:30he's like AAL psychologist okay but like
2:59:33how do you not know anything about the
2:59:34vers database and you're sitting here
2:59:35talking to me about like uh it's just
2:59:37it's a vaccine Adverse Events database
2:59:39and it doesn't prove yeah a lot more
2:59:42reports over the history of you know
2:59:44whatever but none of those are it
2:59:46doesn't mean it was caused by a vaccine
2:59:47it just means that when a bad event
2:59:49happens afterwards like a thing you know
2:59:50you report it to a doctor and if you
2:59:52give a million people a thing 100 people
2:59:53are going to die you know probably just
2:59:55statistically afterwards like this is
2:59:56all like more invation after yeah but
2:59:59like yeah these people in alternative
3:00:00media who are to some extent respectable
3:00:02figures because they've got phds or some
3:00:04other type of um qualifications or
3:00:06credentials yeah just like leading
3:00:08people down these insanely
3:00:09conspiratorial roads and then people
3:00:10will say that thing like well I don't
3:00:11really trust our institutions why the do
3:00:13you trust Tim P or Jordan Peterson you
3:00:15realize these guys are making money
3:00:16directly like hand over fist telling you
3:00:18exactly what they're telling you and
3:00:20want to hear why would you not trust
3:00:21also no not to knock anybody that works
3:00:24in in public service I'm not knocking
3:00:25anybody okay like people in my position
3:00:28and in these positions make a lot of
3:00:30money okay these guys that work for
3:00:32government this dude makes like 55,000 a
3:00:35year Scholars scientists Etc they not
3:00:38fin inen if I tell you the right lie
3:00:41that might be like a million doll
3:00:42difference in income this year if this
3:00:44guy tells you lie what he's going to get
3:00:45[ __ ] canned from his 55,000 year job
3:00:47like where is he his compensation for
3:00:49this you know and where's the
3:00:50coordination in that like you hear all
3:00:52like you know the covid vaccine stuff
3:00:53about like you know it's everything from
3:00:56you know people talking about like you
3:00:57know vaccine incidents and blood clots
3:00:59all the way up to like mind control and
3:01:01[ __ ] like that all in varying levels of
3:01:03wrong but like where's theing
3:01:05coordination for that like you think
3:01:07fouchy is sitting there with all the
3:01:09people who are making the vaccines like
3:01:10all right guys so here's what we need to
3:01:11do we need this to both mind control and
3:01:13kill as many people as possible but not
3:01:14so much that they notice it and like how
3:01:16do they coordinate this [ __ ] like that's
3:01:18the thing about science like you were
3:01:19saying like there's always going to be a
3:01:20couple people who up because there are
3:01:22[ __ ] everywhere whether no matter
3:01:24what discipline they're in there's going
3:01:25to be people who up or do things
3:01:26maliciously but science is is is
3:01:28something that is beyond an individual
3:01:30it is supposed to be a method of checks
3:01:32and balances to make sure that even if
3:01:34someone messes up whether intentionally
3:01:36or by accident it doesn't like carry
3:01:38over like if anyone along that way was
3:01:41like holy [ __ ] this vaccine has a very
3:01:43high possibility of killing a lot of
3:01:44people they'd be like stop the presses
3:01:47we need to do like right now there is no
3:01:49way even if one person in there was like
3:01:51the vaccine's going to kill a lot of
3:01:52people that goes on to the next guy
3:01:54who's like holy [ __ ] absolutely not
3:01:56we're not doing that science is a
3:01:58process and it's also a bunch of
3:01:59individuals too I doubt you've been on
3:02:01on many excavation sites or any
3:02:03excavation site where there's some guy
3:02:05there and he's like man I hate
3:02:07archaeology but I'm doing this for
3:02:09whatever reason like the people that
3:02:11make it in these fields are probably
3:02:12people that like they were years old
3:02:15Museum digging up the play fossils
3:02:18have passion for this stuff they really
3:02:20love it they enjoy it like where are all
3:02:22these malicious actors when they're 12
3:02:23being groomed by like the evil Society
3:02:25of bad doers where it's like okay you
3:02:27guys are all going to go start studying
3:02:29this so that you can all these trials up
3:02:30later on like so you can plant olive
3:02:31trees on kcye Jesus when I look at a lot
3:02:34of this stuff I I'll probably take like
3:02:36a pretty classical like kind of
3:02:37psychological approach like
3:02:39institutional distrust when you ask a
3:02:41question why would you trust Tim p and
3:02:43not like an institution it's because you
3:02:44never actually have to like personally
3:02:45interact with Tim Po but you always
3:02:47always have to interact with
3:02:48institutions and institutions are
3:02:50inherently flawed because they're
3:02:52massive bureaucratic systems filled with
3:02:54people um and so everyone everyone has
3:02:56had the experience of like going to like
3:02:58the DMV or like having to interface with
3:03:01some government agent and it being the
3:03:04worst experience of your life right
3:03:06everyone has that experience of like
3:03:08just some like some bureaucrat being
3:03:09like you know what [ __ ] you particularly
3:03:12today in a literal way where they're
3:03:13just like they're like I don't want to
3:03:14sign your passport cuz youing annoy me
3:03:16and then it's like you're is ruined your
3:03:18week is
3:03:19ruined red so as as the world gets more
3:03:23complicated you know people have to
3:03:25interface even more with institutions
3:03:27than I think they had to in the past and
3:03:29institutions are bigger than they ever
3:03:30have been you you know like hundred
3:03:32years ago you mostly just like had to go
3:03:34to your local doctor that you like walk
3:03:35or rode to and he wasn't part of like
3:03:38the AHS the Alberta Health Service right
3:03:40whereas now in Alberta it doesn't matter
3:03:42how rural you are you're going to an AHS
3:03:44worker with AHS standards and
3:03:46institutions and so any time you get
3:03:48this negative exposure you can't just be
3:03:50like man Dr Smith sucks you're like AHS
3:03:53sucks and they're out to get you and
3:03:55they're out to get you and that's
3:03:56definitely true that people have those
3:03:57bad experiences but I want people what I
3:03:59wish more people would be aware about is
3:04:01your your attention is being focused on
3:04:04these things that people don't want you
3:04:06to to like because and it reminds me of
3:04:08that world of pseudo archaeology that I
3:04:10was bringing up where it's the same kind
3:04:11of tropes over and over again that
3:04:13you're being driven towards there's this
3:04:15kind of alternative world of facts in a
3:04:18sense and issues that you're just asking
3:04:20questions about that are being promoted
3:04:23to sort of divert your attention I think
3:04:25is the right way to put it to sort of
3:04:27get you to look somewhere else so that
3:04:29you don't see all the other stuff that's
3:04:31actually out there right yeah and even
3:04:33even when you were talking you were
3:04:34talking about like the mistrusting your
3:04:36distrust of like doctors or the Alberta
3:04:37Health Service people will do this all
3:04:39the time with like I don't want
3:04:40government bureaucracy you know messing
3:04:42all this up like everybody knows the
3:04:43government bureaucrats are inefficient
3:04:44the government's inefficient and it's
3:04:45like okay who do you work for and it'll
3:04:46be like some you
3:04:48massive you know software yeah and I'm
3:04:50like so tell me about your job like are
3:04:52you going to tell me right now that you
3:04:53have the smooth like don't you guys
3:04:54complain about middle management shitty
3:04:56employees like all the time like yeah I
3:04:58guess we do don't you complain about how
3:04:59you have to spend so much at the end of
3:05:01the quarter or else your budget's going
3:05:02to be up yeah I guess we do don't you
3:05:03guys complain about like how stupid the
3:05:05B okay so it's not really the government
3:05:07it's it's every kind of bureaucratic
3:05:09thing but your attention is being
3:05:10focused in like such a way to uniquely
3:05:13hate like a particular thing and it's
3:05:15like um I think I think it was with um
3:05:17Flint where we talked about it might
3:05:20where we talked about like if somebody
3:05:21was antia but they also like they didn't
3:05:23eat any GMO crops they didn't like their
3:05:25whole life they worked out every single
3:05:26day it's like okay I get it you know I
3:05:28think you're dumb but at least I get it
3:05:29you're not
3:05:30inist you're not inconsistent right
3:05:33because you every part of your life
3:05:34mirrors this but when somebody says like
3:05:35I'm super skeptical of all the
3:05:36institutions I don't trust any of these
3:05:37people but they will trust everything
3:05:40said by a certain government a foreign
3:05:41government everything said by there
3:05:42certain alternative media Figures it's
3:05:44like okay wait what so you do trust you
3:05:45have a lot of trust actually you have
3:05:47actually far more trust in this
3:05:49institution uh or in the institution
3:05:51being like this alternative you have so
3:05:53much more trust than I do I don't trust
3:05:54to be fair I don't trust fizer that's
3:05:56why I like the FDA and I don't just
3:05:58trust the FDA that's why we have two
3:06:00other branches of government and I don't
3:06:01just trust the government that's why we
3:06:02vote for them where you hear a thing
3:06:05from this media figure Temple you trust
3:06:07everything he says implicitly even
3:06:08though he might say the exact opposite
3:06:10thing two weeks from now and and I'm the
3:06:12one that's being suckered by big
3:06:13whatever like and and you don't trust
3:06:16science but what you're using your phone
3:06:17you're driving your car you're doing all
3:06:19this other kind of stuff everything you
3:06:20do comes from this system that we live
3:06:23in all the all the good and the bad if
3:06:26you see what I mean and so you can't
3:06:28just say oh it's all just the bad I
3:06:30don't trust these people what about all
3:06:32the good that you get from it you know
3:06:33what about all the good that has come
3:06:35from scientific discovery and education
3:06:37and stuff like that from what our
3:06:39government has done I mean Jesus look at
3:06:41life expectancy today compared to 150
3:06:43years ago look at the kind of fact that
3:06:45like fewer and fewer people people are
3:06:47starving and malnourished in our country
3:06:50today than were 150 years ago sure but
3:06:52then they'll point out to you something
3:06:53and again I'm going to I'm going to be
3:06:55the populist here yes okay um they'll
3:06:57point to you and be like look at the
3:06:58suicide rates you know so like yeah
3:07:00you're right there's kind of this Maslow
3:07:02issue of like we aren't starving there
3:07:04isn't really that much crime compared to
3:07:06before and these things are valid the
3:07:07issue is like the way the human brain
3:07:10system is set up isn't to like go around
3:07:12and be like oh it's so sunny out today
3:07:14that's nice it's like God is there a
3:07:16snake in the bush
3:07:18system is oriented because it's
3:07:19protective and adaptive it's better for
3:07:21your brain to assume that there's malice
3:07:23and harmful things around you and most
3:07:25importantly like when you're saying like
3:07:27why don't you just like think more about
3:07:28this it's cuz most people just don't
3:07:30have the time or like the willfulness or
3:07:32their energy to right and like the
3:07:33reality is like they work 40 hours a
3:07:35week they're exhausted a lot of the work
3:07:38that they do is monotonous empty work so
3:07:39they're also like kind of like mentally
3:07:42and emotionally drained and what they're
3:07:44looking for is like narratives that give
3:07:46them some level of meaning and I think
3:07:48we see like different waves of
3:07:49narratives take shape um all the time
3:07:52and there's always going to be that
3:07:53group that's countercultural whatever it
3:07:55is you know in the '90s it was like the
3:07:56punk rockers but then like Punk kind of
3:07:59became more mainstream and like now
3:08:01anime is mainstream but before animy was
3:08:03kind of like counterculture and it was
3:08:05just the weird kids that did that stuff
3:08:06and so you see like these ever evolving
3:08:08like shapes of like we had like the
3:08:10rationalist skeptic movement that was
3:08:12very countercultural to the like kind of
3:08:14like big Christian that was going on in
3:08:16like the early 2000s but now the
3:08:19rationalists and Skeptics are hated by
3:08:20like the postmodernists and like the red
3:08:23pill guys right and so it's like we see
3:08:25like these waves of narratives like
3:08:26moving in and out and I like I see it as
3:08:29like people aren't like you know what
3:08:32people are not we said this I think
3:08:34yesterday people aren't designed or
3:08:36created towards truth seeking they're
3:08:38they're designed towards like more like
3:08:40truth seeking in a big T way of like
3:08:42narrative truths right they that's what
3:08:45our brains are really really good at and
3:08:48like I don't really expect the guy who's
3:08:50like struggling to make Grant he's got
3:08:52two kids they're just trying to get by
3:08:54his mother-in-law is super annoying um
3:08:57he's depressed and sad all the time his
3:08:59wife is on ssris his kids are whiny you
3:09:02know I don't expect him to be like hm
3:09:05like how do I evaluate all these things
3:09:07in the world even though I would really
3:09:08like him to do those things I think this
3:09:10is why I blame a lot of the alternative
3:09:12Media stuff for the big media figures
3:09:13because I think they do this I think you
3:09:14can have these different views of life
3:09:16but I I mean like the the issue I have
3:09:18right now is that as of recent like you
3:09:20can have like a positive ethos you can
3:09:21have a negative ethos and all of the
3:09:22Alternatives have just sell such a
3:09:24horribly negative ethos and then we lose
3:09:26out on like all the like you can have
3:09:28like I would prefer even like a a
3:09:30propaganda Rich environment where it's
3:09:31at least like good [ __ ] about our
3:09:33country even if it is exaggerated like
3:09:34I'd still prefer that to like everything
3:09:36has to being negative like we grew up
3:09:38with the thing where teacher say like
3:09:39you know you're not going to have a
3:09:40calculator in your pocket I have a super
3:09:42computer myet that's more powerful than
3:09:44the collective power of the entire world
3:09:45when you were a kid so
3:09:48what's the of 30 whatever yeah but we
3:09:50have no positive we have no positive
3:09:51ethos right now and no good way to build
3:09:53community which is what's so key you
3:09:55know we have to build community if we're
3:09:57going to ever deal with the challenges
3:09:58of this world again it comes back to
3:10:00trust right you have to trust that we're
3:10:03going to build something that actually
3:10:04is successful because you know like I
3:10:06said there's no linear progression of
3:10:07history and that's because what happens
3:10:09in history is what people do right and
3:10:12so what we are choosing to do right now
3:10:15is to not trust each other and that is
3:10:17what we are choosing to do and there's
3:10:18major repercussions for that that we see
3:10:21all the time in political dysfunction
3:10:23which therefore has other kinds of
3:10:25issues and so you know in terms of what
3:10:27gets funded even and so you know it all
3:10:30just comes down to how do we build a
3:10:32community that's stronger and it's
3:10:33something me and Milo have been talking
3:10:35about a lot because like just yesterday
3:10:36last night when we were out for dinner
3:10:37it's sort of like look we have these
3:10:39challenges of communicating archaeology
3:10:42with the public and a lot of the public
3:10:44has been primed to distrust us right and
3:10:46so the only way to really combat that
3:10:49let's say is not to like go out and
3:10:51fight these people and debunk them and
3:10:53everything like that what we need to do
3:10:55is build a stronger online community
3:10:57than they have built right you know an
3:10:59ecosystem that of real archaeology that
3:11:02can kind of outs swarm this kind of
3:11:04stuff and we need to promote each other
3:11:05and and and and push each other up so
3:11:08that we can start dominating these
3:11:10online algorithms in a different way
3:11:12than these other communities which have
3:11:14tried to dominate the online algorithms
3:11:16with distrust and be able to like take
3:11:18credit for things so frustrating people
3:11:20are like oh you think climate change is
3:11:22real well remember when SM was supposed
3:11:24to be a huge issue in La remember when
3:11:26the ozone was a big deal remember when
3:11:27there supposed to be acid
3:11:29rain yeah like people came together they
3:11:33recognize the problem and they did
3:11:35something about it just didn't just
3:11:37happen like you said yeah didn't just
3:11:38yeah history is not inevitably tending
3:11:40towards positivity it takes work and
3:11:42this is where you mentioned something oh
3:11:44yeah big Florida rainstorm look at that
3:11:46got a love it oh it's coming oh yeah
3:11:49done and this is this is something that
3:11:50um we touched on earlier that I wanted
3:11:52to um kind of circle back to so I'm glad
3:11:54we are is we you were talking about the
3:11:55idea of a generalist versus an expert
3:11:57and Flynn I know you kind of gave your
3:11:58thoughts on that and I kind of wanted to
3:12:00extrapolate on it a little bit um I
3:12:02think that in my opinion having
3:12:05generalists and experts within the field
3:12:07is so important I think that with having
3:12:10us you know sitting at this table here
3:12:12both of us have you know our field that
3:12:14we are like specialized in on like you
3:12:15could say that I am like you know now I
3:12:17wouldn't say I'm an expert in
3:12:18archaeology but that's my expertise I'm
3:12:20I'm an archaeologist I'm an
3:12:20environmental scientist but I am much
3:12:22more of a generalist in that field I
3:12:24haven't declared what my specific thing
3:12:25is that I want to go into I talked about
3:12:27that with all of you of like I don't
3:12:28really know what I want my PhD to be yet
3:12:30like I'm really enjoying my
3:12:31communication side of things even if I
3:12:32did have a PhD it would be in something
3:12:34so specific that I think I would have
3:12:35diminishing returns for how effectively
3:12:37I could communicate archaeology as a
3:12:39whole even if it would give me some
3:12:40extra tools where Flint is an expert
3:12:42like he has studied the thing that he is
3:12:45interested in and knows everything about
3:12:47it and so you need both of those you
3:12:49need the ability to communicate on both
3:12:51sides of that um and so that's something
3:12:53that I think is really important in this
3:12:54community that we are now trying to
3:12:55build where like we want to have a lot
3:12:57of people in this who have these
3:12:58differing levels of expertise because
3:13:01like I I think that having a generalist
3:13:03has been something which is almost like
3:13:06it feels insulting for me to even call
3:13:08myself that because we see so many
3:13:09generalists yeah because we see so many
3:13:11generalists who like are like just not
3:13:15doing any of the leg work you know where
3:13:16it's it's like being a generalist isn't
3:13:18a bad thing something I emphasize a lot
3:13:20is like you know if I had my PhD or
3:13:21something like that I'd talk a lot about
3:13:23whatever my PhD is on and I'd have a lot
3:13:24of you know my own research in it but
3:13:26it's like I'm not going out and doing
3:13:28digs right now I'm not going to all the
3:13:29sites I talk about and Gathering the
3:13:31research myself I am taking the work of
3:13:33experts who have worked foring years in
3:13:35the field to publish these papers and
3:13:37make these results available and I
3:13:38digest it I'm a generalist I can go from
3:13:40part of the world to part of the world
3:13:41to part of the world I can look at the
3:13:43different you know evidence from there I
3:13:44can call in experts who have more
3:13:46experience in the than I do to like
3:13:48platform what they're saying and by
3:13:49doing that I can kind of hop between
3:13:51places which is the way the like the
3:13:53human mind wants to work that's the way
3:13:54the audience wants to work they you know
3:13:56I if I made a whole Channel where all I
3:13:58talked about was I don't know one
3:13:59particular type of stone tool from you
3:14:01know the main Coast it would be
3:14:03interesting and I'd get people in on it
3:14:04but like eventually they're going to get
3:14:05tired of that one stone tool so like
3:14:07it's important that we have the ability
3:14:08to communicate all these different sites
3:14:10bring in the Specialists who are
3:14:12responsible for the data in those
3:14:13different sites and really build out a
3:14:14community because the the thing that the
3:14:16you know pseudo crowd really has which
3:14:18you know to their credit is they are
3:14:20pretty good at being self-referential
3:14:22like they are very good at being able to
3:14:23just be like hey this guy who also says
3:14:25the same [ __ ] I do you should go
3:14:27listen to what he has to say and like
3:14:29that's really the extent of it like they
3:14:30aren't doing as much you know
3:14:32coordination as they probably could but
3:14:33that works because it's an echo chamber
3:14:35already so they kind of share audiences
3:14:37but like the science like the scientific
3:14:38Community has had a really hard time
3:14:40translating to like the general audience
3:14:42because it is something where like
3:14:44because there's that stigma that you
3:14:45can't talk in the field unless you're an
3:14:46expert but an expert spends so much time
3:14:48getting that one specific expertise that
3:14:50they then go in to teach that expertise
3:14:52to a classroom full of people at a
3:14:53university they're never going to make a
3:14:55YouTube channel unless there's people
3:14:57like Flint who are getting out there and
3:14:58inspiring them to do that and showing
3:15:00that there is classrooms of millions of
3:15:01people that we can now have online so
3:15:03like we need the people who are the
3:15:04generalists who can FP from site to site
3:15:06we need the people who are the experts
3:15:07who have a deep deep breath of
3:15:09archaeology who can like TR like talk
3:15:11about these sites in a much more
3:15:12critical involved way than you know
3:15:14someone with just an armchair
3:15:15understanding of it and so by that I
3:15:17really hope that we can build out this
3:15:19this community that is able to get out
3:15:20ahead of the pseudo archaeology cuz like
3:15:22I said yesterday once you have to bring
3:15:25up Graham Hancock or any of these people
3:15:27the damage is already done you said the
3:15:29name people who like Graham Hancock
3:15:31maybe it'll change their mind both of us
3:15:32have had plenty of people who have come
3:15:33to us from our uh different series
3:15:35talking about you know his debate my
3:15:36series being like wow I never even
3:15:38thought about this I've been fans of
3:15:39Graham for a long time and I now kind of
3:15:41see the light so it's possible but once
3:15:42you bring up the name like it's going to
3:15:44be a cult of personality and there's
3:15:45going to be people who just don't listen
3:15:46to you so the thing that we need to do
3:15:48is we need to build out this community
3:15:49so that we can teach real stuff first
3:15:51just get it out there don't waste our
3:15:53time you know boxing with these people
3:15:54as fun as that can be and I think we
3:15:56still have to do that in a way but like
3:15:58you know really prioritize just making
3:16:00sure there's good information out there
3:16:01so everyone on their own when Graham
3:16:02hanock shows up on Netflix and he's
3:16:04there talking in his British accent and
3:16:06you know he sounds like he really knows
3:16:07what he's doing they can look and be
3:16:08like huh that dude's full of [ __ ] yeah
3:16:10just sorry one last thing to add is what
3:16:12I got pleas um I fully think generalists
3:16:15are fantastic I hope that did not come
3:16:18I've worked with plenty of amateurs in
3:16:19the field like right and like I said
3:16:22many amateurs have published in the
3:16:23field and stuff like that and I also
3:16:25think there's plenty good generalists
3:16:26who are conveying archaeological
3:16:29information in an honest truthful way
3:16:31right you know they're expert
3:16:32communicators at synthesizing something
3:16:34complicated and making it understandable
3:16:36and you know look Scholars are
3:16:38generalists too though we have to be
3:16:39when we teach right when we're teaching
3:16:41introductory to archaeology course I'm
3:16:42not teaching about animal bones in
3:16:43ancient grease I'm teaching about other
3:16:45stuff right when went on Joe Rogan to do
3:16:48that I had to talk to 20 other experts
3:16:50to be able to synthesize the material
3:16:52that they gave me for a general public
3:16:54and we we do that and one of the things
3:16:56that I found since I started engaging
3:16:58with the public a few years ago on
3:17:00Twitter and then now on YouTube and
3:17:01stuff like that is as an expert one of
3:17:03the cool things that I can do is I can
3:17:05signpost for people that are not experts
3:17:08sort of how to approach some of these
3:17:09complex topics right and so like I
3:17:11brought up I think yesterday the example
3:17:13of home and a lady and whether they
3:17:14buried their dead and when I made that
3:17:16video it was it was really my own I was
3:17:18going on a limb and doing my own peer
3:17:20review of it and other YouTubers who had
3:17:22praised that publication they saw my
3:17:25video and then they were like oh wow
3:17:27wait a second and they made new videos
3:17:29that changed their narrative right and
3:17:31when I do stuff like I made this video
3:17:33about gockley Tepe to to deal with some
3:17:35of this conspiracy theory stuff and it's
3:17:37already in the newspaper because I have
3:17:38all these journalists that follow me on
3:17:40Twitter and so it's like you know as an
3:17:42expert if you speak to the public you
3:17:43have a certain ability to really shift
3:17:46the narrative that's happening around
3:17:48you because other people who are really
3:17:50good at communication whether it's
3:17:52journalists or podcasters or YouTubers
3:17:54or whatever you guys listen to experts
3:17:56and then you guys think through how am I
3:17:58going to apply that for my audience and
3:18:00so it's why I think experts have to
3:18:02speak up so much CU we can really
3:18:04signpost how how to get this stuff out
3:18:06and then other people can take it and
3:18:07run with it if you see what I mean and
3:18:09it's so valuable to be able to do that
3:18:11and seeing that impact it's so
3:18:13empowering to keep doing that and to
3:18:15really start try to explain to
3:18:16colleagues how we can impact this
3:18:19narrative just by speaking up yeah I
3:18:21think I think I would say like two
3:18:23things to that and then we obviously we
3:18:24can wrap because I don't want to keep
3:18:26going on and on on on one sometimes I
3:18:29wonder though if Flint you have a bit of
3:18:30a Survivor bias because I think you're
3:18:32really naturally talented at converting
3:18:35your expertise into accessible ways like
3:18:38there's a reason why you compared to
3:18:40almost any other like not very known
3:18:42expert got on Joe Rogan and kind of took
3:18:44down like Graham Hancock right there's
3:18:47not a lot of experts that have done that
3:18:49and it's not obvious to me that all can
3:18:51because I think a lot of the Zeitgeist
3:18:53within uh academic expertise especially
3:18:56is that you're an expert that you aren't
3:18:58a generalist and there often times is
3:19:00this resistance and even like some
3:19:02sometimes not even resistance sometimes
3:19:03just lack of skill some people are just
3:19:04not good at this they're not good at
3:19:06science communication necessarily right
3:19:08they're like I don't I don't want to
3:19:09have to figure out a simpler way to
3:19:11explain like Isotopes and all the I
3:19:14don't want to figure it out like I don't
3:19:15care you know guys I just want to be an
3:19:17expert and so it's like I would agree it
3:19:19seems like you have like the the TCT the
3:19:21Tactical skill of being both an expert
3:19:23and a generalist um I just think that we
3:19:26shouldn't assume that like all experts
3:19:27can become those generalists it would be
3:19:29what's really cool is that tying that
3:19:31you see of like experts finding people
3:19:33who are the good more generalist science
3:19:36Communicator jack of all trades type
3:19:38person connecting to them um like crash
3:19:41course is a really good example of they
3:19:43get in touch with experts the experts
3:19:45help them build their entire your script
3:19:47but then it's Hank and John who are
3:19:48presenting it all the time Hank is not
3:19:50like an expert of every single crash
3:19:52course that they've ever done but
3:19:54they've had experts vet it and then they
3:19:56go and do their own skill of presenting
3:19:58it which in many ways they're kind of
3:19:59like their own expert um so yeah I guess
3:20:01I would just say that of being like no
3:20:04and I fully agree not everybody is able
3:20:05to do that but I also think I'm sure
3:20:07Milo knows he's had a lot of archaeology
3:20:09professors or listened to lectures by
3:20:10archaeologists are archaeologists can be
3:20:12very engaging people you know we have
3:20:14all kinds of crazy stories when when
3:20:16archaeologist is at a dinner party go
3:20:18talk to that archaeologist we have
3:20:20stories about getting electrocuted on
3:20:22cattle fences we have stories about
3:20:24getting robbed in the field we have
3:20:26stories of goats mysterious goats that
3:20:28approach us with buckets on their heads
3:20:30you know like doing archaeology you
3:20:33especially if you travel around the
3:20:34world to do it you need to become
3:20:36somewhat of an expert at communication
3:20:37because you're communicating in
3:20:38different languages and across different
3:20:40cultural divides and so I I while I'm
3:20:43not saying everybody can do that well
3:20:44that's not my point there's a lot of us
3:20:46that really can and we need to tap into
3:20:48it that's the thing is really it's like
3:20:50the communicators are already out there
3:20:52like it's not even a question of like
3:20:53you know maybe for indiv on an
3:20:55individual basis it could be teaching
3:20:56some how to you know communicate a
3:20:57little better but like the
3:20:59archaeologists are already great
3:21:00communicators as far as I've seen it's
3:21:02just using this platform and this medium
3:21:04like we need to translate that
3:21:05communication that happens in the
3:21:06classroom that happens in the field and
3:21:07at the dinner parties onto YouTube onto
3:21:10the internet and I mean that's what
3:21:11we're doing here I mean this is already
3:21:13really big it was so inspiring for me as
3:21:15someone who like you know has spent a
3:21:16long time kind of building up the
3:21:18Channel that I have to see Flint enter
3:21:19the field in his debate with graham that
3:21:21was like the first time I really like
3:21:22heard about flint and he was put on my
3:21:24radar and like he aced it it was awesome
3:21:27and I'm like [ __ ] these are we need
3:21:29people like this in this field cuz like
3:21:31I do it but as the generalist I'm like I
3:21:32want the experts too like I can't just
3:21:34be the only one like shouldering
3:21:36archaeology not that I'm the only one
3:21:37there's plenty of amazing creators who
3:21:38who are you know with me in this
3:21:39community but I'm like we need like
3:21:41there should be way more people with the
3:21:43expertise that Flint has that other
3:21:45creators have to be there and tell what
3:21:47they have to you know what they what
3:21:48they've studied because they know this
3:21:49[ __ ] you know I say that same thing a
3:21:51lot yeah like why the [ __ ] am I arguing
3:21:53over antibody dependent enhancement on
3:21:55vaccine [ __ ] like can there please just
3:21:57be like an immunologist or somebody or
3:21:58virologist that just comes out cu Fu me
3:22:00dude like yeah yeah I said that one of
3:22:02my recent debunk videos talking about
3:22:04you know like the pyramid power plant
3:22:05and like he was like oh well there's no
3:22:07carvings on the inside of the pyramid so
3:22:09it couldn't have been a burial structure
3:22:10and I'm like I'm not an egyptologist but
3:22:13now I'm going to have to pretend to know
3:22:14the cultural practices around putting
3:22:17pyram you're goinge godamn that's not my
3:22:20field I don't know this [ __ ] you
3:22:23know all right where do people find you
3:22:25what do they look up well I'm Milo Rossy
3:22:28uh mini Minute Man on YouTube Tik Tok
3:22:31and Instagram um but the one that you
3:22:34really want to check out there this guy
3:22:36over here Flint Flint Flint Flint's a
3:22:39you know he's he's a newcomer in the
3:22:40space we got to we got to get him up
3:22:42there thank you Mil I don't have your
3:22:44sort of voice to that well I'm Flint
3:22:45Dibble
3:22:48I'm an archaeologist and uh no you can
3:22:50find me I I mostly do my Public
3:22:52Communication on Twitter and YouTube
3:22:54with my name Flint Dibble and uh but I
3:22:56also you can find me on other social
3:22:58media as well where I try to advertise
3:22:59that stuff um and I'm trying to do a lot
3:23:01more youtubing because I think that oh I
3:23:04think the way to teach Archaeology is
3:23:06with images right you got to show people
3:23:08what we have show them the truth and
3:23:11then come out to a dig and and feel the
3:23:13truth right you know hold an artifact in
3:23:14your hand I think that's really
3:23:15important and so so yeah find me online
3:23:18YouTube Twitter things like that and
3:23:20this is just the beginning you you just
3:23:22watch yourself we formed an alliance we
3:23:24have formed an
3:23:28alliance oh man that's awesome well
3:23:31thank you guys for coming out it was a
3:23:32lot of content in two days I appreciate
3:23:35it um you know I'm excited for this
3:23:37Alliance that I'm going to you know
3:23:38bridge is going to take sole
3:23:40credit just kiding where do we sign yeah
3:23:43yeah exactly the real exciting thing is
3:23:44now that you're both quasi online well
3:23:46you're a very online figure and you're
3:23:47working way yeah eventually there's
3:23:49going to be the big bridge burning you
3:23:50guys backstab each other dude I'm stoked
3:23:53we start playing that now yeah I'm going
3:23:54to use a stone tool to stab you lint
3:23:57hopefully
3:23:59yeah yeah check them out if you guys
3:24:01want to check uh you know check out any
3:24:04of them out I'm sure there's multiple
3:24:05ways to support them if you like Bridges
3:24:07and you want to support the show make
3:24:08sure you check out our patreon we're
3:24:10working on getting some behind the
3:24:11scenes footage up and all sorts of
3:24:13goodies there as well as asking future
3:24:15guests questions that will be
3:24:16answered every episode so make sure to
3:24:19check that out cool thanks a
3:24:21lot thank you guys go y' nice
3:24:25[Music]
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