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UNCUT: Russell Tillis testifies in his murder trial — Transcript

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0:00okay uh at this stage of the trial at
0:03in the light most favorable to the state
0:05the court will find that the state has
0:07established a prima facie
0:09case of guilt for each of the four
0:11crimes alleged in the indictment
0:14and will therefore deny the defendant's
0:16motion for judgment of acquittal at this
0:18time
0:20okay as we have uh discussed
0:24a little bit earlier i believe it's the
0:27defendant's intention to testify mr
0:30fletcher
0:31and it is your intention to
0:34not call any other witnesses is that
0:36right
0:40and i know we've had previous
0:41discussions about
0:43whether or not mr tillis agrees with the
0:46decision
0:47to call other witnesses at this
0:50point is it your understanding that he
0:52agrees or disagrees with that decision
0:56okay mr tillis you can remain
1:00seated i don't recall when i lost worry
1:02in but just out of an abundance of
1:03caution let me swear yet again do you
1:04solemnly swear or affirm to tell the
1:06truth the whole truth and nothing but
1:07the truth to help you god
1:09okay now mr tillis a couple issues we
1:12need to address
1:14uh first the state has announced rest
1:18which means that they have produced all
1:20the evidence that they intend to produce
1:22in this case
1:23unless they decide to call some rebuttal
1:25after after the defense case
1:28of course the burden of proof in this
1:30case as well as in any criminal case
1:32is upon the state of florida the
1:34prosecutors in this case
1:35which means you do not have to prove
1:37anything the burden is entirely on the
1:39state
1:40because of that that means that you do
1:42not have to testify in your case
1:45you can remain silent if you choose to
1:47do that
1:51on at least two occasions that you have
1:53the absolute right to do that
1:54and that they cannot hold that decision
1:56against you in any way
2:00if you decide to testify of course
2:03you'll be treated just like any other
2:05witness you'll be placed under oath
2:06examined and cross-examined
2:09if you have any what are called
2:11impeachable convictions
2:12felony convictions or crimes of
2:14dishonesty such as
2:16petty theft etc the state can impeach
2:18you with that
2:19number only the number how many felony
2:22convictions you have
2:24how many crimes of dishonesty you have
2:26if there's an agreed-upon number
2:28that's it they can't go any further
2:29necessarily now they're
2:31we're going to talk in just a second
2:32about in in your specific situation why
2:35they may get into some other issues
2:38but for for purposes of that question
2:41uh mr mizrahi how many impeachable
2:43convictions do you have
3:03negotiation was i would not use that
3:05condition
3:06as an aggravating factor
3:19okay so mr mr fletcher do you agree that
3:22with that assessment
3:27okay so mr tillis if you testify the
3:29state will be allowed to bring out uh
3:3214 felony convictions and one prior
3:34crime of dishonesty
3:35do you understand
3:42okay sure how many uh
3:46felony convictions do you believe that
3:47you have
3:50okay but you understand for purposes of
3:53our discussion here
3:55uh if the state says so mr tillis you've
3:57got 14 felony convictions
3:58you say well i don't know how many i got
4:01they may be entitled to go into
4:04what those were including the nature of
4:06the convictions
4:07and and perhaps details if there's a
4:10discussion or disagreement about that
4:12you understand that
4:29okay well i understand what you're
4:32telling me
4:33uh but i have no idea whether you're
4:34going to be convicted or not what i'm
4:36most concerned with is making sure that
4:37you understand
4:40the rights that you have as a defendant
4:43in the trial before this jury
4:45and what the proceedings will be so
4:47again to be clear
4:49if you decide to testify the state is
4:52allowed to
4:53ask you how many felony convictions you
4:54have if there is a disagreement
4:57the law may allow them to get into the
5:00specific
5:01nature of some of those convictions and
5:04i assume some of them are
5:05from what i've heard so far are violent
5:07prior felonies
5:09so you understand that
5:16okay now as you know
5:22there are many decisions that attorneys
5:24can make for you
5:25strategy decisions and whatnot the
5:28decision about whether or not she
5:29testifies not one of them
5:31that's a decision that only you and you
5:33alone can make same with any criminal
5:35defendant
5:37you have two very skilled experienced
5:39attorneys they've given you advice in
5:41this matter i'm sure
5:42you should consider their advice but
5:44ultimately you make the decision do you
5:46understand that
5:48do you need any more time to consider
5:50your decision about whether or not you
5:51wish to testify
5:59okay well we can get to that in just one
6:01second but in terms of my question do
6:02you need any more time to speak with
6:04them about your decision to
6:05whether or not you're going to testify
6:09okay and you need any more time to
6:11consider whether or not you want to
6:12testify
6:15other than i know you want to give me a
6:16statement okay
6:19so uh and you've made the decision to
6:21testify
6:23okay and that's a decision you're making
6:25freely and voluntarily
6:27anybody threatens you or coerce you in
6:29any way to get that
6:30get you to make that decision
6:34let me let me preface that let me
6:35preface that question um i understand
6:37that
6:38part of your defense and what part of
6:40your testimony may be
6:42may be the uh your belief of
6:45feelings of coercion by the court and
6:47the court system is that right
7:18okay and i was gonna the next issue i
7:19was gonna i told you we had a couple
7:20issues to discuss the next issue is
7:22gonna be regarding uh witnesses and
7:24whatnot
7:25um and i understand you're telling me
7:26that they're kind of intertwined
7:30other than that which we'll
7:33we can talk about in just one second
7:37has anybody other than your belief that
7:40your attorney's performance has caused
7:41you to
7:43make the decision that you may need to
7:44testify
7:46has anybody made any specific threats to
7:48you like if you don't testify
7:50i'm going to hurt you anything like that
7:56okay and you're making this decision to
7:57testify it's your decision
7:59okay new subject and that goes into the
8:03and i haven't forgotten that you want to
8:04give a statement the issue of
8:07witnesses we've discussed this i know
8:09before the trial and then we discussed
8:10it again
8:11i think this morning maybe yesterday
8:13morning
8:14about witnesses that you want to call
8:17and your attorneys
8:18do not believe it's in your best
8:19interest and they've made the decision
8:21not to call them
8:23if there's anything else you want to put
8:24on the record about that
8:27i will allow you to do that
8:30but other than what we've already
8:32discussed throughout the course of the
8:34proceedings with the witnesses that you
8:36wish to call and the motions that you
8:37filed
8:38regarding those witnesses are there any
8:41other witnesses
8:42or evidence that we haven't discussed
8:45that you want
8:46presented in your case and you've told
8:49your attorneys about it and they've said
8:50they're not going to do it
8:52again my question is very specific other
8:54than what we've already talked about
9:12okay to my knowledge that's the first
9:14time i've heard that name so it's
9:16okay so you haven't brought it up to me
9:18before
9:19have you brought it up to your attorneys
9:26dutch well
9:32well have you have you told him
9:34specifically i got this guy
9:35dutch shepherd dutch stafford that i
9:37think will help me
9:40okay mr fletcher does that name sound
9:42familiar to you
9:43okay mr mayors how about you
9:48okay um all right um
9:50[Music]
9:55okay now another question that i'm going
9:56to ask you then i'm going to turn it
9:57over to you for
9:58for your statement um
10:02a question that is normally asked in
10:04this scenario
10:05right now is whether you're satisfied
10:07with the performance
10:08of your attorneys in this case all i
10:11need from you right now
10:12is a yes or no no
10:15okay all right sir uh go ahead with uh
10:21whatever you want to tell me
10:42but my testimony is
10:54all right make sure you're addressing
10:56your comments to the court not to the
10:57prosecutor
10:59now you're fine
11:26is
11:29what trial are you talking about
11:49[Music]
12:01okay well um
12:06you don't get to do that
12:12well no it's not um but it's a fair
12:16point to bring up
12:17uh and since you do since you did let's
12:19let's talk about it a little bit
12:21the um normally
12:25what i advise defendants is what i just
12:27advised you a few moments ago where i
12:28said
12:29if you choose to testify you'll be
12:31treated like any other witness
12:33you'll be examined and cross-examined
12:36encompassed within that is the notion
12:39that
12:39once you open yourself up to testifying
12:42as a witness
12:44both parties are allowed to question you
12:46about all your potentially relevant
12:48knowledge on the case and that applies
12:49to a criminal defendant just like it
12:51does
12:52to the next door neighbor or anybody
12:54else
12:55so when you raise your right hand and
12:58swear to tell an oath
13:00or swear to tell the truth as an oath in
13:02front of the jury to testify
13:04and tell whatever it is you want to talk
13:06about you give up your
13:08your fifth amendment right against
13:09self-incrimination and the state is
13:11allowed to
13:12inquire ad infinitum as long as their
13:15questions are relevant and not
13:16repetitive
13:17and i would allow them to do that in
13:19this case
13:20so
13:21[Music]
13:24other than that i can't really i'm not
13:27your lawyer
13:28as you know and i can't advise you
13:32as to what to do the decision is yours
13:35and yours alone but if your decision to
13:37testify was based upon your mistaken
13:39belief that you can
13:41limit your testimony to simply those
13:43areas that you want to testify about
13:45i want to make sure i disabuse you of
13:47that notion before you make that
13:49decision do you understand okay having
13:52said all of those things does that
13:54change your mind about whether or not
13:55you wish to testify
14:02well you need to be less concerned with
14:04how the court's going to react and more
14:05concerned with how the jury's going to
14:14react
14:16and when those questions were addressed
14:18to me i would just ask
14:20no comment based on the system if that
14:23would be an acceptable answer for the
14:24statement
14:25i will testify
14:30okay well i don't presume to to speak
14:33for the state so mr mizrahi what would
14:35be the state's position in this matter
14:40to cross-examine the defendant like you
14:42would any other witness
14:44and my understanding of the case law is
14:47is impermissible
14:48for the defendant to invoke his right to
14:51remain silent on the witness stand
14:53under this scenario we're not going to
14:56prod him with hot
14:57pokers to make him talk so we're in a
14:59situation where
15:01i think that he he can refuse to answer
15:04questions and i will ask them
15:06i'll ask the court to direct the
15:07defendant to answer the questions and
15:09then the defendant has a decision to
15:10make about whether or not he's going to
15:11answer them or not
15:12and that would be mr tillis that would
15:15be the procedure that the court would
15:17utilize and it would it would go on
15:20for as long as the state continues to
15:22ask questions that
15:24would potentially be relevant in other
15:25words as long as they don't ask you the
15:26same question over and over again
15:28they would be allowed to ask you 50
15:30questions and you would be
15:32forced to enter your scenario to say
15:34over and over and over and over again
15:37that you refuse an answer on the grounds
15:39that may incriminate you
15:40if that's your decision as mr mizrahi
15:44indicated
15:45no one's going to physically force you
15:49under threat of violence to to testify
15:52but if that's your decision
15:55that's the procedure that would be
15:56utilized so again if you need some more
15:58time not a whole lot of time because the
16:00jury will be coming back soon
16:02but if you need a little bit more time
16:04to discuss this with your attorneys or
16:05to
16:06decide in your own mind whether or not
16:08you wish to testify i'll give you that
16:10option but as we sit here right now
16:14has this discussion changed your mind
16:16about whether or not you wish to testify
16:22sure
16:26i don't want that either
16:48well
16:51sure he could say something along and i
16:53would probably allow him to do this i
16:54would say mr
16:55he could say mr tillis i'm going to ask
16:57you one more time what was the color of
16:59the car
17:00you could say i'm not answering that
17:01question on the grounds that the answer
17:03may incriminate me
17:04at that point i would step in and say mr
17:06tillis you do not have the right as a
17:08witness in this case
17:09to invoke your fifth amendment right to
17:10remain silent the court is ordering you
17:13to answer the question
17:14at that point he'd be allowed to ask you
17:16one more time
17:18if you invoke then he would
17:21i'd be allowing him to move on to the
17:23next question and we would
17:24utilize that procedure until
17:28he has asked all the questions he
17:29believes are relevant
17:45of what what limited
17:48okay well if he again if he asks you
17:50questions in that area this is the
17:52this is the procedure that we would
17:54follow
17:57right so given all of that your decision
17:58is still to testify
18:04okay mr fletcher anything else you need
18:07to put on the record
18:12anything else in the state all right
18:15then we will be in recess for 10 minutes
18:17and then we that'll be 3 15 a little bit
18:20later and i told the jury but
18:21i think everybody deserves about 10
18:23minutes so uh we'll be in recess until 3
18:2515
18:26and we will commence the state's case
18:28i'm sorry the defense case
19:17he's wearing he's wearing the bandit not
19:19the leg brace so
19:21i don't think the jury would see him
19:22limping or anything so i'm fine
19:25if you're fine with him we'll bring the
19:28jury out he'll be a council table
19:30you'll call him he'll be called up to
19:32clerk and then sit in the witness box
19:34just like everybody else
19:35or i'm certainly happy to have him
19:38situated in the witness chair when the
19:41jury comes out that way they don't see
19:43him walking
19:44just in case there's any
19:50uh wayne which way you want me to go
19:54he's gonna come around so i think you're
19:55fine well
19:57now actually mr fletcher is right i
19:59don't that's too close to the jury
20:03yeah so just come around the middle yeah
20:06we don't care about mizrahi
20:07just bring them in the uh just bring
20:09them around in the middle i think that's
20:10better
20:13officer thorne you good with that
20:17um okay so uh
20:20that's the procedure we'll utilize
20:24um we'll let him finish getting dressed
20:45that doesn't apply yeah
21:11it certainly doesn't apply when the
21:13witness says he's gonna
21:31okay so uh mr tillis when mr fletcher
21:34calls you as a
21:35witness you'll go this way down the
21:38middle
21:39and then stop uh just like you've seen
21:41the other witnesses do
21:42right up there and madam clerk will
21:43swear again then you'll go to the
21:44witness chair
21:46okay we're ready for the jury to come
21:48out
21:50okay let's bring him out
22:24okay thank you may be seated
22:28and welcome back members of the jury we
22:29are ready to continue with the trial
22:32uh as you know when uh you last left us
22:35the state had announced rest we will now
22:38proceed
22:39with the defense case mr fletcher
22:46okay mr tillis if you will come forward
22:48please sir
22:53madam clerk
23:04thank you sir if you'll have a seat
23:28good afternoon mr tillis good afternoon
23:31send me up here
23:32yes sir i'll see you fine divider here
23:34mr tell tillis can you state your full
23:35name for the record please
23:36and my name is russell david tillis and
23:39mr tell us where are you from
23:41i'm from jacksonville florida how long
23:43have you lived here um
23:44off and on all my life mr tiles let me
23:47get something out of the way right up
23:48front have you ever been convicted of a
23:50felony
23:50yes sir how many times uh i guess to
23:53make 14.
23:54okay and have you ever been convicted of
23:56a crime of dishonesty a misdemeanor
23:57crime of dishonesty as well i'm thinking
23:59one
23:59would be the number all right let's go
24:03back to um
24:042015. did you uh get arrested sometime
24:07in 2015.
24:08yes sir i endured a very uh physical
24:10arrest in
24:112015. okay we're not trying that case
24:14today but in brief
24:15short order just tell me what happened
24:18well the cops
24:19appeared across the street from my house
24:21about one o'clock in the morning
24:23dressed in all black not marked as
24:25police officers
24:27they threw one pound rocks over the
24:29fence on top of a metal roof of my home
24:33when i come out to investigate the
24:35disturbance
24:36they were hiding in the bushes they made
24:39a rush attempt to grab me
24:41and i ran i didn't know it was they ran
24:44me down and beat me up
24:46and i believe that's the photograph the
24:47state showed the uh
24:49jury leaves all in my hair done on my
24:51shoulder i got beat up pretty good
24:53okay i found a knife in my pocket and
24:56another knife that was on me
24:57they charged me with uh holding them at
25:00knife point in front of my house
25:02they charged me with battery on a leo
25:05and then subsequently
25:06a home security video appeared of my
25:09arrest
25:10and it proved that the arresting officer
25:12had fabricated the
25:14complete report there was no knife
25:16standoff on the street
25:17and all of it was alive the state
25:19proceeded anyway
25:20put him on the stand and tried to
25:22prosecute me right on with it
25:24as though the cop was telling the truth
25:26it was a horrendous deal
25:28all right tell us let me back you up a
25:29little bit back up a little bit
25:32how long were you in jail and tell tell
25:34us about what jail was like for you
25:36while you were why your case was pending
25:38well it wasn't just what the jail was
25:40like
25:41what you have to take into consideration
25:42is
25:44how i got there and what it cost me to
25:46get there
25:47and what was occurring so i get beat up
25:50i get arrested
25:51i see a police report that's a complete
25:53lie nobody believes me
25:55i'm facing multiple felonies i'm facing
25:5730 years and i'm incarcerated
25:59the jail was violent it was so violent
26:02that they recently in the last years had
26:04to install cameras and they have a safe
26:06program now
26:07to take out the violence it was nothing
26:10to get
26:10beaten simply because you were either
26:13old
26:13or maybe you were gay or
26:17some other discriminatory issue
26:20you would get sometimes beat pretty good
26:23it was violent okay
26:26and you believed you were looking at 30
26:28years oh i was definitely looking at 30
26:30years they served me with a
26:31habitualization notice
26:33on my first court appearance seeking to
26:37the state was seeking habitual
26:39habitualization
26:41and uh i if i'm not mistaken during the
26:44initial arraignment
26:45the state advised the court that a trial
26:48date would be set and there would be no
26:50negotiations
26:51so they pretty much told me the first
26:53day in court
26:54we're going to take these cops and we're
26:55going to give you 30 years cops that had
26:57written a
26:58police report that was a complete lie
27:01it was a pretty uh traumatizing
27:04situation
27:06okay so tell us what you did in response
27:09to that
27:10well i first thought the public
27:12defender's office and i tried to explain
27:14to him what happened
27:15they had me baker acted into the sixth
27:17floor on the uh jail
27:18said i was delusional
27:22so i get out of that and uh
27:26but that didn't stop the lawyer then
27:28they sent a doctor at me
27:30dr knightie to perform an evaluation the
27:34the lawyers alleged that i was
27:35delusional
27:37cops don't throw rocks at the middle in
27:39the at your house in the middle of the
27:40night
27:41and they don't fabricate reports the guy
27:42must be delusional
27:44but dr knight he took a different stance
27:46on the matter and he said although my
27:48story was uh unusual i don't think
27:51that's a word he used but i believe
27:52that's what he meant
27:54although it was unusual it was plausible
27:57and that the attorneys
27:59should solicit the evidence that i was
28:01suggesting
28:02and confront me with either the lack of
28:04evidence
28:05or the evidence and then that would
28:07prove my delusionalness
28:10well when dr knighty performed the
28:12evaluation
28:13i made a strict stipulation at the
28:15beginning of the interview
28:17i would only perform the valuation if he
28:19would send me a copy of the report
28:21myself
28:22because i knew that if i didn't get a
28:24copy of that report from him
28:26the lawyers would never give it to me so
28:29he did
28:30he sent me a copy so when my attorney
28:33returned to visit me at that time i
28:36believed
28:36michael j uh kevin jenkins was the
28:40public defender representing me
28:42when he came to see me i laid the report
28:46on the table
28:46his first words were where did you get
28:48that
28:50when i explained how i got it and i
28:52brought his attention to the doctor's
28:53recommendations
28:54perhaps you should go solicit the
28:56evidence that he is alleging
28:59mr jenkins then told me that the
29:01doctor's report was irrelevant
29:03and i received no assistance from the
29:05public defender's office at all
29:07okay did you get frustrated with your
29:08lawyers frustrated it's a mild word i
29:11could use a lot stronger ones than that
29:14and what was it that you think that was
29:16out there that they could get a hold of
29:17that would sort of exonerate you
29:19well one as i stated just a second ago
29:22the video of my arrest
29:24there were some homeowners that lived
29:26across the street one of them was lane
29:28campbell that testified here
29:30but lane campbell she
29:33she had such a uh such a
29:36opinion of me that you i couldn't get
29:40the video from her
29:41so i alleged i told the lawyer hey look
29:44if you go to that woman
29:45she's got a home security system and
29:47she's got that video
29:49and i know she saved it because she
29:51hates me that much
29:53she would save that video and she would
29:56watch it every saturday night for
29:58entertainment
29:59saying hey that's that's his arrest but
30:02of course they didn't believe me
30:04then the other ones the other uh was the
30:07one pound rock
30:09i had one of those rocks and it had
30:11ceramic tile on it
30:14the cops when they beat me up and got me
30:16off the ground
30:17they weren't wearing gloves so my
30:20contention was one of those cops was
30:23handling that rock
30:25and his fingerprints i've done
30:27construction all my life i owned a
30:29small home improvement business
30:32that ceramic tile would carry a latent
30:34print i was certain of it but they
30:36wouldn't they wouldn't do any
30:37investigative work
30:38and that's why you got frustrated oh i
30:40got frustrated boy did i write letters
30:41to the court
30:42yeah well i wrote letters and i did this
30:44and i did that but to no avail
30:46no avail and then what i decided to do
30:48was i'd wave council and represent
30:50myself
30:52so i i engaged in a little trickery
30:55to trick the cops into admitting what
30:58they had did
30:59so i took uh i come into the
31:02uh the fortunate
31:06position to meet a private investigator
31:08who
31:09after reviewing the case said that she
31:12would help me
31:14so that was a bright light so i took
31:17employee complaint forms and i filled
31:20them out
31:21complaining that the cop had thrown
31:23deadly missiles at an occupied dwelling
31:25in the middle of the night
31:26which is a second-degree felony and i
31:29made all kinds of allegations
31:31how i was going how that rock and i had
31:34a picture of it
31:35that the private investigator had
31:36provided me with
31:38and then i was going to i was that rock
31:41was at a latent print analysis
31:44uh laboratory and as soon as i got them
31:47fingerprints back
31:48i was going to put that rock in one of
31:50those cops hands
31:51what i was relying upon is the cops
31:54conscious
31:55he knew he threw the rock even though he
31:57was denying it and he didn't write it in
31:58the report
31:59he knew and i knew so i wrote the
32:02complaints
32:03at first they told me oh you don't know
32:05what you're talking about
32:07but when i showed them the pictures and
32:08i give them the little fake story
32:10ah well we admit to throwing rocks so
32:14they admitted to throwing the rocks
32:16they wouldn't they wouldn't admit to the
32:17fabrication of the police report
32:21and i eventually got that too
32:24so as you as all this is occurring how
32:26long have you been in jail at this point
32:27i've been in jail about six years
32:30um i don't mean up to today
32:33i mean oh when that occurred yes oh well
32:37i would say that was probably in the
32:39first
32:40well like i say i went to the
32:42arraignment they served the
32:43habitualization notice
32:44the lawyer said he wouldn't help me they
32:46tried to try to put me in the
32:48middle ward they sent the doctor i'd say
32:50that was a span of about three months of
32:52all that occurring
32:54and then when i realized that people are
32:56not going to help me and i have
32:58they essentially told me look we're not
33:01going to do nothing for you
33:02so i would say probably three months and
33:05i'm guessing
33:06so don't hold me to a particular date
33:07but i'd say three months and that's when
33:09i decided to
33:10i you file a motion to waive counsel and
33:13what that does is
33:14it relinquishes your appointed counsel
33:16from representing you
33:18and then you have the ability to
33:19represent yourself
33:21in this courtroom and then i would be
33:23recognized
33:24as the lawyer then i would have
33:26privileges of
33:28hiring investigators and doing an
33:30investigative work
33:31that i needed in order to obtain the
33:35uh video of the arrest things like that
33:38so i guess about three months in i waive
33:41counsel
33:42i meet this private investigator who
33:44turns out to be a blessing
33:45and then i move forward okay so fast
33:48forward a little bit because i wasn't
33:49supposed to go
33:50all into this but tell me what happens
33:52at the jail and is there a point
33:54in time where you get really depressed
33:56well
33:57the depression was almost from the
33:59immediate arrest
34:00but the depression less escalated
34:04i mean it's a pretty it's a
34:07it's a uh it's a situation of
34:11of something that would create a mental
34:13despair that
34:14really can't be described but i mean i
34:17lost the home the freedom
34:19i get arrested i get a fabricated report
34:21i'm facing 30 years
34:22and all of that happened within about a
34:23month then i get into a violent jail
34:26so yeah the the depression was present
34:30from the
34:31arrest but escalated very quickly
34:35in the first three four months okay did
34:38you continue to believe that you were
34:39going to get
34:40another 30 years well i i seen
34:43i seen no light although when you're
34:45when you're engaged in a pro se status
34:48and you're representing yourself in this
34:50courtroom
34:52you receive an immense amount of
34:54prejudice from the court
34:55you're not treated like a lawyer you
34:58don't have the same
34:59although the law states you do in
35:02reality
35:03you do not have the same rights as the
35:05lawyer you're restricted
35:07the court's prejudiced you can't pick up
35:10the phone and call an expert
35:12so yeah it was it was pretty
35:16depressing i even though i was
35:17representing myself i was getting
35:19nowhere
35:20in and it was easy for me to see
35:23that when you have a group of police
35:26officers
35:27saying he did this and they're all
35:29wearing badges
35:31and i am the defendant accused of the
35:34crime
35:35the credibility goes to the police
35:36officer it's a no-win argument
35:39unless you have some real factual
35:41evidence to prove your point
35:43being a video or something that the cops
35:45can't dispute
35:47only then will they admit what they've
35:50done
35:50for instance throwing the rock they
35:52would have never admitted throwing the
35:54rock
35:54if i had not had a picture of one of the
35:57rocks and it was an unusual rock
35:59and the reason i kept that rock was
36:02because it was
36:03a piece of grout with ceramic tile
36:06it had been removed from a remodeling
36:09a home remodeling job that rock was not
36:13a rock you find laying in a yard or
36:15laying on the side of the street
36:16you find that in some sort of
36:18construction site they had to have
36:20brought those rocks with them
36:22my contention was he probably recognized
36:25the rock when he seen the picture
36:27that was the rock was that unusual okay
36:30let me fast forward a little bit okay
36:31go forward about four five six months is
36:34there a point where you get really
36:34depressed and you try to do something
36:38well i came to uh i came to court on
36:42january the 22nd
36:442016. and i was in front of judge brillo
36:47right here and uh i was trying to
36:51uh well let me let me let me back up on
36:53that court dave because i don't think it
36:55was january
36:55the 20th it may have been the 22nd
36:59but i was in front of this particular
37:01judge right here
37:02and i was complaining to the judge that
37:06the lawyer wouldn't go get the video and
37:09i was trying to explain look
37:11i've lived i've lived across the street
37:13from these people for 45 years
37:15i know them i know what they do i know
37:18how they are
37:19i know these people i know they got that
37:22video
37:23i don't care about the time lapse they
37:25saved it for a souvenir
37:27the judge tells me you're probably just
37:30mad at the public defender's office
37:32for not getting something that doesn't
37:33exist and he
37:35completely ignored me and he did not
37:38instruct that lawyer
37:39to to go to go look
37:42he didn't he didn't there were certain
37:45laws
37:46like case law for instance you hear
37:49sometimes you hear the lawyers quote in
37:50here
37:51there is case law that law comes from
37:55that is supposed to guarantee each of us
37:58effective representation in a criminal
38:01proceeding
38:02you're gifted that right by the florida
38:05and the united states
38:06constitution it's a law if you get
38:09arrested and you're indigent
38:11you get a good lawyer that's the law and
38:14it is this man's responsibility to
38:16ensure that your constitutional right
38:19remains in place
38:21but when a lawyer says well i'm not
38:23going to help you
38:24and then the judge says well you're
38:26probably just mad at him because he's
38:27not getting something that doesn't exist
38:30you you suffer a severe prejudice right
38:32there
38:33you're in a no-win situation buddy all
38:36right so you're convinced you're gonna
38:37get 30 years at some point right
38:39yeah well i was i was looking down the
38:41barrel with a gun there's no doubt about
38:42that
38:43okay and did you attempt suicide while
38:45you were in jail
38:46well a suicide attempt came later be
38:49honest with you
38:50that was that was on uh i can't remember
38:52the date but i do remember the time
38:55frame
38:55which was if i'm not mistaken
38:58it was it was within two months
39:02after the february 10th recording
39:06because the the february 10th recording
39:10was uh that was a pretty trauma kind of
39:14event
39:15that led to the as soon as that was over
39:19i was in the hospital for three days i
39:21should have never left
39:22okay should end up in the morgue okay
39:25how did you get how did you get to the
39:26hospital
39:26what did you do in the jail to get
39:28yourself taken out of the jail well in
39:30in the jail the uh
39:33there is a uh it seems like everybody
39:36takes medication
39:38now during the time that i've been in
39:39that jail i have strictly
39:41refused any antidepressants or any drugs
39:45from because all you have to do is ask
39:47the medical department of the jail
39:49and they'll give you they'll give you
39:51drugs to calm you
39:53you know but what they do is they put
39:55you in a stupor and then you
39:57you don't know what's going on and i'm
39:58scared to death of that so i have
40:00refused although i suffer from
40:03some i'm sure although i don't know the
40:05technical names of it but i'm sure i
40:07suffer from
40:08uh depression that could be clinically
40:12recognized but i wouldn't take any
40:14medication but anyway this medical cart
40:16comes around
40:16every day twice a day to the particular
40:20area where i am being housed
40:22and they pass out pills to nearly
40:23everybody well a lot of guys don't take
40:26the pills
40:27they just take the pill from the nurse
40:29save them and then they trade them for
40:30extra food
40:32inside that jail you can buy anything
40:34there are heroin overdoses
40:35drug overdoses marijuana every drug you
40:39can imagine
40:39is in that jail and very rampant so
40:43at this particular point which was
40:46probably
40:46within two months right after the
40:48february 10th recording
40:50the depression was so severe that uh
40:54i uh i solicited a guy that lived in
40:57another cell
40:58a couple down from me and i don't
40:59remember his name and i traded him
41:01trays of food for eliville so i would
41:05trade a tray of food for
41:07i think it was 100 milligrams of elevil
41:10so i traded about i don't know
41:1210 trays of food got me about a thousand
41:14milligrams and i ate them
41:16all thousand milligrams i figured that
41:17was enough to kill me
41:19i woke up in the hospital you woke up in
41:21the hospital stayed there for three days
41:23and they let me go all right and and why
41:25did you try to commit suicide
41:27well well i had already initially
41:34i had already had the
41:38suicidal ideation of suicide by state
41:41so i was already suicidal
41:44but when the second when i went through
41:47the february
41:485th recording that was bad enough but
41:51i thought it was over that that the
41:55that would be the end of it when the
41:57february 5th
41:59i mean the february 10th recording
42:00showed up i was shocked
42:02all right let me do this let me do this
42:04let me back you up a little bit
42:06to the a couple days before february 5th
42:09did you approach sammy evans in the jail
42:13yes okay and what was the basic
42:16discussion about that you had with him
42:17well first i would like to to radiate
42:20the genus
42:21of that discussion and that came from a
42:24january 22nd
42:26court proceedings in front of judge
42:28brillo
42:29judge bruhler was tremendously abusive
42:32he had lied to me on several occasions i
42:34had transcripts where he was making
42:36multiple
42:37rulings that were inconsistent with his
42:39previous rulings
42:41and the the judge is very abusive
42:45although he may not appear to be right
42:47now trust me
42:48there is a 224 page really hate this
42:51corpus filed that describes
42:53his abusiveness over the five years i've
42:55been in front of him all right mr tillis
42:57let's let's focus on the facts that okay
42:59so anyway i go to court on january the
43:0222nd
43:03and i experience this abusiveness while
43:05i'm in the court
43:07and judge brillo essentially tells me
43:09the jury's coming in in about a week
43:11and you're going to end up dying in
43:12prison what do you want to do
43:15what the hell do you do so
43:18i was pretty now you got to add that to
43:21the previous
43:22situation of of the beat up the losing
43:25the house to being in the jail the
43:26violent the depression
43:28so it's accumulation of facts it wasn't
43:30just the judge
43:31don't get me wrong now but it was an
43:33accumulation
43:34it was that behavior added to it so
43:37january the 22nd i get back to the jail
43:39and i'm in a pretty bad state of mental
43:41despair
43:43so i knew sammy evans from being in
43:45there
43:46so i approached him and i asked him i
43:49said
43:50how would you like some assistance on
43:51your legal case now he and i had already
43:54talked he was in an armed robbery sister
43:56was his co-defendant
43:58she set her boyfriend up they robbed her
44:01boyfriend
44:03assistant she uh she set her boyfriend
44:07up
44:08just tell us this objection oh okay i
44:10apologize
44:11i apologize your honor uh so anyway i
44:15knew a little bit about sammy's case can
44:16i say that much
44:18and just leave it there yes okay okay so
44:20i knew a little bit about his case
44:22so i uh i asked him i said uh
44:26i i knew that he was facing a life
44:28sentence okay
44:29and that he didn't have much of a
44:31defense at all
44:33and he was gonna die in prison he hadn't
44:36been out of prison very long so i
44:37approach him
44:38and i say hey how would you like a
44:40little assistance on your case
44:43well he immediately was interested in
44:45the conversation
44:46okay and so did you two hatch a plan so
44:48to speak well
44:50i told him my
44:54position and i talked to him about him
44:57assisting me and at the same time
45:00receiving some assistance on his case
45:02and he was in agreement to the deal okay
45:05so what was the plan
45:06well and this is before he's he's wired
45:09up right oh yes this was uh
45:12well it was it was about three days
45:14after january the 22nd
45:1726 so i'll say about january the 26th
45:20the first recording occurred on february
45:22the 5th
45:23so there's only about a two-week period
45:24right there okay
45:26so i come back from court on the 22nd of
45:29january
45:30i approach evans that day he is
45:33immediately interested
45:35and i tell him that i have knowledge of
45:38where a body is buried
45:40in that i want to confess to the police
45:45about this body and i want the death
45:49penalty
45:49because i'm fixing to get this 30 years
45:52and i don't want to die of slow death in
45:53prison
45:54i was 55 at the time i've lived a pretty
45:56good life i figured
45:59i'll get the death penalty and i'll and
46:00i won't die that slow death in prison
46:04well evans was o he was he was uh
46:06cooperative with with that
46:09but at first he was a little hesitant
46:11he's like
46:13when first you have to understand it's
46:15not normally something
46:16someone would walk up to you and say you
46:18know hey i know where a body's buried
46:20and i want you to go get the wire and
46:23i want to confess to you and the first
46:26question was
46:27why don't you just tell the police
46:30what do you need me for i mean that's
46:33the logical inference of a conversation
46:35like that
46:36okay so what happened well i told him i
46:39told him
46:40pretty much the details of it he helped
46:42me cook up a good story
46:44but the problem with murder as you have
46:46been advised by the judge
46:48when you came into this this courtroom
46:51that murder itself does not
46:55always constitute a death penalty you
46:58have to have aggravating factors
47:01and i i have knowledge of the law i mean
47:05i'm
47:05i'm you know i'm not that smart but i do
47:08have some workable knowledge of the law
47:10i know about aggravators i know about
47:12the law i know how to read the law
47:14i know what i know what kind of murder
47:18it takes to get the death penalty and i
47:21know what kind of murder
47:23would be rejected if if
47:26if you wanted to say you committed the
47:28murder and you wanted the death penalty
47:30and you said well i committed a murder
47:32well that doesn't necessarily mean
47:34you're going to get the death penalty
47:35you must have some serious heinous
47:39aggravating factors and i'm
47:41knowledgeable of that sort of thing
47:44so evans and i we cook up a story at
47:47first i tell him
47:48why i can't go to the police and give
47:51the confession
47:53okay so once i convince him that okay
47:57i'm telling you the truth you know and
47:58and this is this is how i know where the
48:00body's buried
48:01and this is what's going on and this is
48:04the reason
48:05i can't go to the police and once he
48:07understood all that then he was kind of
48:08looking at me a little different
48:10okay let me hear your story so i tell
48:12him my story
48:14he and i over a course of maybe three or
48:16four days
48:17we start fabricating this
48:20this murder that we were both convinced
48:23would provoke the police the state
48:26attorney
48:26into seeking the death so that i didn't
48:30end up confessing to a murder
48:32where the state didn't seek the death
48:33penalty and then i'm right back to
48:35doing the 30 years in prison i got
48:37nothing
48:38okay so did you discuss with mr evans
48:42these things and then at some point he
48:45got taken
48:46over to the police memorial building and
48:47then return well before he got took into
48:49the porsche memorial building
48:50the the problem the problem with the
48:53cooked up confession was
48:56it had some serious holes in it and
48:59those serious holes
49:00for the very reason i couldn't go to the
49:03police
49:04if i sat down if i just picked up the
49:06phone and hot the tips hotline and said
49:08hey
49:09you know i committed a murder and i want
49:10to confess they would take me over to
49:12the police memorial building
49:13they would subject me to hours of
49:16interrogation
49:17in front of homicide detectives that
49:19take special courses in interrogation
49:23and in the course of being interrogated
49:25eventually
49:26that homicide detective would detect
49:28there's something wrong with my story
49:32and that was the fear that's why i
49:34couldn't go to the police
49:36i i didn't mind confessing to a recorder
49:39because the recorder wouldn't ask me any
49:42questions
49:43and i have enough knowledge of the
49:45police in duval county to know
49:47that once they find a body they rush to
49:50justice
49:51they don't care about any other facts
49:53like finding dave
49:54finding jimmy the other multiple murders
49:57they don't care anything about that
49:59they got the body they got the
50:01confession and they rushed to justice
50:04i relied upon that so sammy and i
50:07we cook up this horrenius story but then
50:10i start getting a little cold feet
50:12because you got to understand i've got a
50:14pretty bad mental despair at the time
50:16i'm depressed bad
50:18but i start getting cold feet because i
50:21think i'm going to get caught
50:23let me back up a little bit at some
50:24point he gets a map from you
50:26right yeah that was why we were cooking
50:28up the
50:30the uh while we were doing because
50:33at first he was a little skeptical i
50:35mean how many people just walk up to and
50:37say hey i know what body's buried and
50:38i'm going to give it to you
50:39and you can trade it for assistance on
50:40your case okay so you came up with this
50:42map
50:43yeah i gave you the map and you actually
50:45knew
50:46just how far from like the fence line to
50:49where the body was and you gave that to
50:50him yeah i knew exactly where the body
50:52was buried and i knew the condition of
50:53the body
50:54yes i did and you knew it was going to
50:55be given to the police and i knew it was
50:57going to be given to the police
50:58i drew the map i told him to study it
51:00and then i told him to throw the
51:01original in the toilet
51:02and make his own hand hand copied and
51:04then for him to allege that i just told
51:06him
51:07but as you indicated earlier in your
51:09examination of witnesses
51:12in a casual conversation do i tell you
51:14how many paces it is from my front door
51:16to my car
51:17my car's sitting out front 36 paces from
51:19the door
51:22yeah so so had had he not told you he
51:25was going to be wired up and
51:27and telling the police these things and
51:28he just walked up and said well how many
51:29feet from the fence
51:30to the to the body and in what direction
51:33that would tip you off that he's a
51:34snitch right
51:36well yeah it would be inside that jail
51:39they call it jumping on cases and
51:43it is very very common although
51:45detective sullivan was never in question
51:47about
51:47how many times he uses
51:50jailhouse informants i personally have
51:53witnessed
51:54inmates fighting because i wanted to
51:57jump on this person's case
52:00and another man wanted to jump on the
52:01case but i wanted assistance on my case
52:04so bad
52:05i would fight this guy and the winner
52:07would get to jump on
52:09on her case i mean that's how rampant it
52:12is in there
52:12so anytime a man walks up to you and
52:14starts saying
52:15where's the body buried how many paces
52:17from one place to another
52:19and and how far is it from the fence
52:22those would be
52:22indicating questions of you get away
52:24from that guy quick
52:27and as i just on your case well yeah and
52:29as i just stated
52:31and i'm sure that the intellectual
52:33ability of the jurors you can tell
52:35my knowledge of the law is you know like
52:38i said i'm not smartest guy in the world
52:40but when it comes to the law i'm not
52:42that stupid
52:44so if you walked up if i'm in jail for
52:47anything a parking ticket or whatever
52:49and you and you and you walked up to me
52:50and says hey you ever do drugs in your
52:53house you got some drugs in your house
52:54what kind of drugs do you like
52:55that would that would be a red flag is
52:57to i would immediately stop
52:58communicating with you
53:00and move away from you as to the best of
53:01my ability although i am in
53:03custody and my moving away is limited
53:06i would certainly try to segregate
53:08myself from you
53:09and not talk to you yes
53:12okay so what happens on the day of
53:15february 5th
53:162016.
53:19well i uh well
53:23an important an important factor leading
53:25up to that
53:26is that when i got the cold feet
53:30in order for me to tell you what
53:31happened on the fifth i have to describe
53:34to you
53:35while fabricating this story with with
53:38sammy evans
53:39and i got cold feet and i couldn't
53:42believe
53:42that the cops would put a wire on him
53:46and send him into the jail unmonitored
53:48unsupervised
53:50by himself my thought was
53:53they're going to send somebody to watch
53:55you and monitor you
53:56maybe even escort you and i became
54:00i became fearful that sammy and i would
54:03be caught
54:05giving this bogus confession to the
54:06recorder i tried to back
54:08out that was around
54:12january 31st february the 1st i tried to
54:15back out of the deal
54:16okay so what happened but by then sammy
54:18evans had become obsessed
54:20all he could see was assistance by now
54:23he realized
54:24this guy's telling the truth man he
54:25knows where her body's at in a body
54:28detectives will often tell you in that
54:30jail if you got a body to give us we can
54:32help you
54:32although detective would never get on
54:34the stand and say that trust me
54:35it happens in that jail all the time so
54:38sam evans at that point
54:39realized this guy's telling the truth he
54:42knows where body's at
54:43he got obsessed with the i'm going to
54:45trade the body for the assistance
54:47because he had a no-win situation on a
54:49life sentence so when i tried to back
54:51out
54:52sammy wasn't having it then became a
54:54little abusive a little threatening
54:55i tried to back up i was pretty
54:57depressed
54:58so february second third
55:02right in there maybe the fourth then he
55:04kind of got threatening around the first
55:06and second
55:06then the fourth february the fourth he
55:08didn't talk to me at all
55:09and i kind of thought maybe he went on
55:11you know he's going to leave me alone
55:13because i'll be honest with you at that
55:15point i was kind of all over the place
55:17in a mental despair
55:19but on february the 5th i'm sitting on
55:21my bunk
55:23i hear this at the door i look up and
55:26there's sammy evans he's got a writing
55:28pad in his hand
55:29he immediately hands me a note before i
55:31can say anything that says
55:32i'm wired and then he steps away from
55:36the door
55:36well i took that note and i balled it up
55:39and i threw it in the toilet
55:41because the cells were small sami evans
55:44didn't see that part
55:45and that was a blessing too he didn't
55:48see that but i didn't want to come out
55:49of the cell
55:50he comes back to the cell then he lures
55:52me out of the cell
55:54but then i don't want to go down to this
55:56this at the time i didn't know where he
55:58wanted to take me because we're in an
55:59area
56:00where i really can't get away from him
56:02you know what i mean we were locked into
56:03jail
56:04so i he gets me out of the cell and he
56:06gets a hold of my arm
56:08and and then he walks me down to an
56:11empty cell and this is an important
56:13this is an important part of what you're
56:16hearing right now
56:18because what i'll tell you and what
56:20evans tells you
56:21and what the record reflects you you're
56:24going to see evans is lying to you
56:27when he when he took me out of the cell
56:29he got me by the elbow it gets me down
56:30to the
56:31there's an empty cell which offers a
56:33little privacy
56:35now he's still got this writing pad in
56:37his hand
56:38so he gets down to the cell and he says
56:41i think we'll just sit in here for a
56:44little while
56:45and he guides me into the cell when you
56:47listen to the
56:48february 5th recording and you look at
56:51the transcripts on page six
56:53as he says those words and don't quote
56:56me because my words are probably awful a
56:58little bit
56:58but he's you can tell by the recording
57:01he's guiding me into the empty cell
57:04at that point there's a pause an unusual
57:07pause
57:08in that in that recording but you
57:12have to understand my position the the
57:15younger generation
57:16are usually gang-related in that jail so
57:20if you get in a problem in one part of
57:22the jail just because you go to another
57:24floor or another part
57:25doesn't necessarily mean you have
57:27avoided the trouble
57:28the jail is full of gang members and
57:31that was the reason for the
57:33safe jail project and all the cameras
57:36tell us
57:36i gotta i gotta stick to the facts of
57:38what happened well
57:40okay so he gets me he gets me to that
57:43cell door
57:45but the reason i keep keep going back to
57:48the conditions of the jail is because in
57:50order to understand what's going on you
57:52really have to kind of understand
57:54the situation in the environment and the
57:56mental state that i'm in
57:59so it's a combination of facts it's not
58:02just
58:02being led into the cell right okay so
58:05anyway he's leading me into the cell
58:06on the recording you hear a pause at
58:09that point when we entered the cell
58:11he had the pad in his hand now he'd
58:14already given me the note i'm wired i
58:15threw it in the toilet
58:16we go down to the empty cell it gives me
58:19the pad
58:21no we go in the door of the cell and i
58:24take the pad from him
58:26let me back up we go into as we're going
58:29in the ink door of the empty cell
58:32there's a pre-written note on the pad
58:36he has pre-written before he took me
58:38into the room
58:39and it read now i'm a little
58:43confused about what it don't uh don't
58:46say anything to get me into any trouble
58:48or you're going to regret it
58:50to that respect i would probably have to
58:52sit for a minute and try to collect my
58:54thoughts on that but
58:55but that's in a nutshell what it said as
58:58he's showing me this
58:59pre-written note on the pad and we're
59:01going into the cell i take the pad out
59:03of his hand
59:05and then there's an unusual pause in the
59:07recording because remember
59:08he can't talk to me about what's written
59:11on the pad because of the recording
59:13so there's two conversations occurring
59:16simultaneously
59:17one on the recording and one on the
59:19writing pad
59:21as we enter the empty cell and he shows
59:24me the note
59:25don't do anything stupid you say
59:28anything stupid to get me in trouble and
59:29you're going to regret it
59:30i take the pad from him and then you
59:33hear the unusual pause
59:35the unusual pause is he's looking for
59:37the pencil to give me
59:38so i can write a note back i get the
59:42pencil
59:43i scratch on the note i told you no now
59:46we're in the empty cell
59:47he takes the pad and the pencil back
59:49from me but you've got to understand
59:51there's a verbal conversation occurring
59:53on the recording at the same time
59:55during the first part of the february
59:585th recording
59:59and it's all up in the front of the
1:00:01recording
1:00:03it if you listen very intensely
1:00:06to evan's conversation there appears to
1:00:10be a distraction
1:00:12in his words in a couple of unusual
1:00:15pauses
1:00:15this man was writing while he was
1:00:17talking
1:00:19and although you can't i mean obviously
1:00:21the audio recording doesn't reflect him
1:00:23writing
1:00:24but the unusual pauses give a little
1:00:26support to it
1:00:28now sammy evans later admitted that
1:00:30there was a pad in there
1:00:32and there was two conversations going on
1:00:33he's like let me
1:00:35go okay so anyway we're in the room and
1:00:36logically okay all right so then you
1:00:38have this long conversation we heard it
1:00:39yesterday
1:00:40yeah yeah that was a pretty long one
1:00:41yeah okay um how much of that confession
1:00:44is true
1:00:45uh well obviously we had weeks to think
1:00:48about it right well
1:00:49obviously obviously the location of the
1:00:51body was
1:00:52i mean i i couldn't i couldn't uh
1:00:55rightfully dispute that and i and i had
1:00:58knowledge of the body
1:00:59and i had knowledge of the condition of
1:01:01the body
1:01:03so if you took that out of the recording
1:01:07there are there are a few other areas
1:01:11one was uh my brother in a body shop
1:01:13with a stolen truck and
1:01:15calling me to help him and that was true
1:01:18but that's a completely different story
1:01:20uh oh how about the two other girls that
1:01:24you say you killed
1:01:25no that was all fictitious the the the
1:01:27kidnappings the
1:01:28other murders the torture the soundproof
1:01:31room
1:01:32those were those were the aggravating
1:01:35factors that i had created
1:01:37that would get me the death penalty it i
1:01:40couldn't just
1:01:41say well i know where bodies at and i
1:01:42killed this girl right because i'm not
1:01:44going to get the death penalty
1:01:45right so the sex trafficking was there
1:01:47ever any sex time thinking no absolutely
1:01:49not
1:01:50no human trafficking none no there were
1:01:52witnesses of that
1:01:53and had you called my witnesses for this
1:01:55trial perhaps there would be other
1:01:56people in here supporting my testimony
1:01:58there was none of that going on in that
1:01:59house
1:02:00yes sir was there a bolt in the floor
1:02:02that you could chain people down to
1:02:04i believe detective sullivan answered
1:02:06that question for you
1:02:07no there was not all right and you heard
1:02:09allegations of uh females being chained
1:02:11to beds and
1:02:12and we went over with detective sullivan
1:02:14whether or not there was any scratchings
1:02:15on the bed frames remember that
1:02:17well i heard some testimony that one
1:02:20witness hog was
1:02:21chained to a tree in my backyard as the
1:02:24photographs were
1:02:25evident that i'm telling the truth there
1:02:27were no trees at all in my yard
1:02:30how she was trained to a tree in the
1:02:32backyard i've yet to figure that out
1:02:34there was a crashed
1:02:35old very very wide tree just across the
1:02:38fence right oh there were many trees
1:02:40across the fence line but you got to
1:02:41understand there was a chain link fence
1:02:43there
1:02:44she was not chained to a tree in my yard
1:02:47we we cut the trees down and ground the
1:02:48stumps long ago for the room
1:02:51there were no trees at all there were
1:02:52some heads out by the front that had
1:02:54probably six or eight razor blades in
1:02:56them
1:02:56and that's another story too but those
1:02:58were the only living trees
1:03:00on that property was that hedge out by
1:03:02the street okay what about the story
1:03:03that you're out in california and you
1:03:05shot somebody out in california yeah
1:03:06that was that was made up too
1:03:08okay how about that story about
1:03:11i guess you said you stole a car i mean
1:03:13you had to go from a to b
1:03:15you stole the car because there just
1:03:16happened to be a guy getting out without
1:03:17the keys and
1:03:18his daughter you pull into his house
1:03:20with his daughter behind you
1:03:21well that was kind of a filler story
1:03:24yeah
1:03:25there was a lot of there was a lot of
1:03:28conversation that wasn't related
1:03:30to the heinous mitigating factors
1:03:33that was uh also false as well
1:03:36i mean i mean once he got me in the cell
1:03:40and he used the paper and he kind of he
1:03:42coheres me and he
1:03:43at one point he stopped me from leaving
1:03:44the cell once he got me in there and he
1:03:46got me
1:03:47now now remember we had already talked
1:03:50about the confession
1:03:51but i tried to back out but once he got
1:03:53me in the cell and he got me into
1:03:55the coercion and he and he got me to
1:03:57talking
1:03:59then it was kind of like it was it was
1:04:02kind of like someone going to
1:04:04i would i would liken it to this you you
1:04:07have a
1:04:08you have a issue and you're seeing your
1:04:10psychologist every week
1:04:12trying to deal with this issue of
1:04:14something that occurred in your life
1:04:16and you can't really you can't really
1:04:18get it out and you have two or three
1:04:20sessions with a psychologist
1:04:22and one day you go to the psychologist
1:04:24and he says the right thing
1:04:25and it all comes gushing out at one time
1:04:28if you can kind of understand that
1:04:30situation you take that and you place it
1:04:34in the empty cell
1:04:35when it gets me in the empty cell the
1:04:37rehearsed
1:04:38uh fictitious story once he used the
1:04:41coercion he gets me in there and he gets
1:04:43the story flowing
1:04:44it kind of gushed out and at some points
1:04:46i was needing
1:04:47filler just to keep the conversation
1:04:49going so you get a stolen car where i
1:04:53drove up in the daughter's yard and you
1:04:56get other little stories that really
1:04:58aren't
1:04:59associated with the aggravating factors
1:05:02they're just fillers to keep the
1:05:03conversation going
1:05:05while we are still communicating on the
1:05:08writing pad
1:05:09or he was doing most of the
1:05:10communicating at that point
1:05:12the only thing i ever wrote on the pad
1:05:13was i said no
1:05:15i told you no i think that's how i wrote
1:05:17it i told you no
1:05:19and uh all right so then that
1:05:21conversation ends
1:05:22right yes that conversation and were you
1:05:24aware that he had taken the recording
1:05:26back to jail
1:05:26oh yeah well where else would he take
1:05:28the recording he had it on
1:05:29so he takes the recording back and i
1:05:31think it's over at that point
1:05:33okay so what happens a couple days later
1:05:36well
1:05:36i'm thinking it's over then five days
1:05:39later
1:05:40i look up there's at the door again he's
1:05:42got another writing pad in his hand and
1:05:43he hands me another note i'm wired and
1:05:44i'm like oh no not again
1:05:46not going to happen i won't come out of
1:05:48the cell i throw the tor i throw
1:05:50the note in the toilet and i don't want
1:05:52to come out of the cell this time
1:05:54but he gets me out of the cell and he
1:05:56takes me and
1:05:57and and what's interesting is that mr
1:06:00evans has stated in his deposition
1:06:03and although i don't know if he would if
1:06:05he testified on on
1:06:07sustain i can't go into what he stated
1:06:09okay well anyway
1:06:11there were allegations that uh
1:06:14i took him into that cell that were
1:06:17completely false
1:06:19so he took me into that cell on two
1:06:22occasions
1:06:23and the recording distinctly as i just
1:06:26said a minute ago if you listen to that
1:06:27recording
1:06:28he is found saying on that recording
1:06:30let's go in here
1:06:32so there's no dispute about hutoku in
1:06:34the cell so anyway he gets me into the
1:06:36cell
1:06:36the same cell on february the 10th
1:06:41that's i throw the note in the toilet he
1:06:43gets me i won't come out of the cell he
1:06:45finally gets him out of sale he takes
1:06:46him back to the
1:06:47to the same empty cell gets me into the
1:06:51cell
1:06:52and then he starts asking me specific
1:06:54questions okay what's he trying to get
1:06:55out of you
1:06:56the most thing that he wanted was the
1:06:58cause of death
1:07:00but that went right back to
1:07:03the reason i couldn't go to the police
1:07:05because i didn't know it
1:07:07and he knew that i didn't know the cause
1:07:09of death
1:07:10but what had happened was he told the
1:07:13cops
1:07:15i'm going to secretly record russell
1:07:17tillis and get this confession
1:07:20okay the cops believed him he comes in
1:07:24he he curses the bogus confession out of
1:07:27me he
1:07:28finally gets it he goes back the cops
1:07:30believe that he covertly recorded me
1:07:33well when there's not enough information
1:07:35on the recording and it lacks that
1:07:37important information of how was this
1:07:40person killed
1:07:41they come back to sammy evans and they
1:07:43say wear another wire
1:07:45you need to find out how how she was
1:07:48killed
1:07:48well sammy evans can't very well tell
1:07:50him look he doesn't know that
1:07:53that's why he wouldn't give the
1:07:54confession to you that's why i'm wearing
1:07:56the wire
1:07:57he couldn't tell him that because the
1:08:00cops thought he
1:08:01secretly recorded me so he puts the wire
1:08:04on
1:08:04but now he's in a catch 22. he's coming
1:08:06to me to ask for information
1:08:08that he knows i don't have so he gets me
1:08:11in the empty cell
1:08:12and then he starts he starts pumping me
1:08:14for that i take the writing pad and i
1:08:16write
1:08:17you're asking me for things you know i
1:08:19ain't got
1:08:21so so now you have a verbal
1:08:23interrogation going on the
1:08:25on the recording and you have an
1:08:27argument
1:08:28going on the writing pad and if you
1:08:31listen to the february 10th recording
1:08:34you'll notice something about that
1:08:36recording but you have to be looking for
1:08:38it
1:08:39it's not something that might jump out
1:08:40at the average person or the casual
1:08:42onlooker
1:08:43the recording starts and he's asking me
1:08:46questions
1:08:47then suddenly there's an abrupt change
1:08:50of subject
1:08:52what happened was he got me into the
1:08:54cell and he starts
1:08:55asking me questions he knows i can't
1:08:57answer then i get mad
1:09:00and i write on the tablet what are you
1:09:01doing
1:09:03you know i ain't got that information
1:09:04but he won't stop asking
1:09:06so the argument ensues on the writing
1:09:08pad when he sees my agitation
1:09:11and my my point of breaking you might
1:09:15say
1:09:15he abruptly changes the subject for a
1:09:18cool down session
1:09:20okay you read a couple more pages of the
1:09:22transcript the cool down
1:09:24the cooldown occurs and he resumes the
1:09:27interrogation
1:09:29then after four or five pages of asking
1:09:32me questions that he knows i can't
1:09:33answer
1:09:34the the argument on the writing pad
1:09:36heats back up
1:09:38he abruptly changes subjects again and
1:09:40he lets another cool down stage
1:09:42and that is a cycle you will see on that
1:09:45recording
1:09:46and that that what was occurring behind
1:09:49the scene
1:09:51explains why the abrupt changes the
1:09:54subject
1:09:54why is he suddenly questioning me about
1:09:56this and then he just
1:09:57abruptly changes and starts talking
1:09:59about his school years
1:10:01and then he goes back to this or he goes
1:10:02over to this
1:10:05my point is that if you look for that
1:10:07pattern it's there
1:10:10it i mean it's it's there it's evident
1:10:12it's there if you just take
1:10:14notice to look all right so so you never
1:10:17you don't know how she died so that's
1:10:19not on the on the audio right for the
1:10:21second conversation no no way
1:10:22and that like i say that was one of the
1:10:24problems with the whole
1:10:26whole bogus confession was and it was a
1:10:29fear of getting caught
1:10:31i didn't know the cause of death okay
1:10:33let me go back to some of the things
1:10:34that you've seen here this week um using
1:10:36pictures of your house right
1:10:37yeah okay tell us what you do for a
1:10:39living
1:10:40well what i did for a living when i was
1:10:44arrested what i was doing for a living
1:10:45yes sir
1:10:46not now well if you notice uh
1:10:50the pictures of the house uh i noticed
1:10:53one was some bed frames in a little sun
1:10:56room
1:10:56but if you notice in another room a
1:10:59bicycle backpacks
1:11:01a lot of odd things in
1:11:04what i there was a man named oliver that
1:11:07has a furniture store on main street
1:11:09he owns an empty lot at 16th and maine
1:11:13it's a big slab of concrete mr oliver
1:11:16let me use that big slab of concrete
1:11:19anytime i wanted to
1:11:21and i in exchange for using it i would
1:11:23mow the grass around the slab and pick
1:11:25the paper up pick trash up out of his
1:11:26lot
1:11:28now i would collect things like that
1:11:31beds frames backpacks uh
1:11:34i would collect miscellaneous furniture
1:11:38where would you get it from uh well
1:11:41one night have you ever heard of these
1:11:43people riding around and picking up
1:11:44steel out of garbage cans
1:11:46and then selling it for scrap well i
1:11:48decided to do that one night
1:11:49so i put a trailer had a couple of
1:11:51trailers hook it behind the truck i go
1:11:52out
1:11:53to this wealthy area and i ride around
1:11:56and i find this barbecue grill that's
1:11:57kind of rusted out and i pull over and
1:11:58i'm going to put it on the trailer
1:12:01and this guy races up and says hey he
1:12:02wants to fight you're
1:12:04you're interfering with my route that's
1:12:07my my grill this is my route i pick up
1:12:09the steel
1:12:10and i'm thinking i'm not fighting you
1:12:11over a rusted out grill you can have it
1:12:13but while this argument's going on and
1:12:15he's taking that rusted out grill from
1:12:17me
1:12:18i noticed a table a little small table
1:12:20sitting beside the street that was with
1:12:22the grill
1:12:23so he gets the grill and he leaves and i
1:12:25start looking at the table and i'm
1:12:26thinking
1:12:26that's a pretty nice table i took the
1:12:28table home okay
1:12:29and i had a pressure washer so i washed
1:12:31it wash it oh yeah well i was frequently
1:12:34washing things
1:12:35everything i'd get the first thing i did
1:12:37with it was wash it
1:12:38okay so so so if i put my trash out
1:12:41tonight
1:12:41and there's a trash can and an old
1:12:43dishwasher i wake up the next morning
1:12:45and the dishwasher's gone but my trash
1:12:47is still there you're the guy that came
1:12:48by the night and took it yeah i'm
1:12:49probably the guy that got that or a
1:12:50table most of mine was furniture because
1:12:52after that i very rarely picked up any
1:12:54scrap steel but i was forever picking up
1:12:57chairs tables furniture
1:12:58and another thing that i picked up
1:13:00frequently and those photographs
1:13:02will demonstrate is a little plastic
1:13:06like these tables small children use in
1:13:08their yard
1:13:09you know how you have you know you got a
1:13:10three-year-old kid you got your little
1:13:12plastic table or sandbox or i would pick
1:13:15those up
1:13:16and pressure wash them real good to
1:13:18where they look new and then when i went
1:13:20down to 16th and main
1:13:21one corner of the lot was free if it was
1:13:24a child's tory
1:13:26it was free and what that did was it it
1:13:30it drew the community to let me
1:13:33use that because you got to understand
1:13:35i'm in a i'm in a neighborhood
1:13:37where they hustle and it's a pretty
1:13:39rough neighborhood 16th in maine
1:13:41you know i'm a white long-haired white
1:13:42guy probably not easily accepted
1:13:45but once the local community realized
1:13:49that
1:13:50that the kids got everything if it was a
1:13:52kid's toy like
1:13:53i kept boxes of stuffed animals i would
1:13:55wash them in the washing machine
1:13:56and then i'd send them over there i'd
1:13:57give the kids stuff away the
1:14:00that little local community kind of
1:14:01accepted me and then twice a week
1:14:04i would go sell things on that corner
1:14:07and i averaged about between two and
1:14:09three hundred dollars every time i went
1:14:10down there
1:14:11that was one way one source of income
1:14:14another was
1:14:15the discovery exhibit the state offered
1:14:18the defense
1:14:19has some calendars in it and on that
1:14:21calendar there's figures written all
1:14:23over it
1:14:24i sold some scrap i did sell scrap and
1:14:27the third source of income
1:14:29was the pictures that the state showed
1:14:31you of my house
1:14:33one particular picture i don't remember
1:14:35the exhibit
1:14:36although we could run through it and
1:14:37find it there there's
1:14:39two driveways in my front of my house
1:14:41when you're facing the house
1:14:43the driveway on the right which some
1:14:46witnesses testified they seen me with a
1:14:48shovel
1:14:49digging around the driveway out front
1:14:51what i did was i put in a second
1:14:53driveway a second culvert
1:14:55and a second set of fences and then i
1:14:58fenced off that area
1:14:59and i rented it to a guy in a travel
1:15:01trailer so i got 350
1:15:03a month for that then i got a couple
1:15:05hundred dollars a week for
1:15:06selling the stuff to the down there on
1:15:0816th in maine and i probably sold maybe
1:15:10i don't know 100
1:15:11worth of scrap a week you know maybe 150
1:15:14every two weeks so my average come out
1:15:17to about
1:15:18i don't know 400 a week 350 a week but i
1:15:21didn't work
1:15:22as far as the i mean it was all tax-free
1:15:25money
1:15:26all right that's why the neighbors never
1:15:27could figure out how to pay the light
1:15:28bill
1:15:29hi mr let me get you back on the case
1:15:31all right all right you saw tabitha hogg
1:15:33this week testify against you yeah i've
1:15:35seen all that
1:15:36tell us how you know top of the hog well
1:15:39uh i picked her up one day over there in
1:15:43phillips highway like she told you
1:15:44and i got her to get me a box of sudafed
1:15:46so i could uh if i could cook some
1:15:48methamphetamine
1:15:49i mean it's true i did that
1:15:52okay i know it sounds bad but i did that
1:15:55what was your relationship with her
1:15:57well yeah it wasn't really a
1:15:58relationship but uh
1:16:01she they call that a smurf it's a legal
1:16:03name
1:16:04i don't know if it's in the law books
1:16:05but on the street
1:16:07it's a it's a name that uh you apply to
1:16:10a person that buys pseudofed for you
1:16:14sudafed has in it an active ingredient
1:16:17methamphetamine and what you do is you
1:16:19take the pseudofed
1:16:20and you run it through an extraction
1:16:22process you don't make the
1:16:23methamphetamine
1:16:24you simply extract it out of the pill so
1:16:28you you get this box of sudafed you get
1:16:31a smurf
1:16:32to buy the sudafed for you and then you
1:16:34take the
1:16:35the 10 pills in the box and you run them
1:16:37through an extraction process
1:16:39and it'll get you about 1.8 grams of
1:16:41methamphetamine
1:16:42so she was a smurf basically and she
1:16:45hung out at the house and she kept some
1:16:47clothes there and she'd come back and
1:16:48forth and
1:16:49she wasn't really that bad a girl i mean
1:16:51she was on the street strong out on
1:16:53drugs but she wasn't really that bad of
1:16:54a girl
1:16:54did you ever have sex with her back then
1:16:56well
1:16:58i yeah there was there was sexual
1:17:00encounter but the relationship wasn't
1:17:02really sexual but i mean
1:17:04you know occasionally she'd come over
1:17:05there and there was nobody else around
1:17:07or something she might
1:17:08hang out and do that but the
1:17:10relationship wasn't based
1:17:11on a sexual relationship you follow what
1:17:14i mean
1:17:14yes yeah i mean i'm not saying it didn't
1:17:17occur on occasions but
1:17:18how many occasions i don't remember but
1:17:21it wasn't it wasn't about that
1:17:22really okay she she alleges that you
1:17:26chained her to the bed yeah yeah she
1:17:28made some she made some pretty wild
1:17:29allegations
1:17:30yes sir to the tree that didn't exist
1:17:32yeah she made that too
1:17:33is any of that true no but she she was
1:17:35in jail
1:17:36and and the reason i went down there is
1:17:39because like i said she wasn't really
1:17:40that bad a girl
1:17:41and uh she didn't have anybody to give
1:17:43her any money
1:17:44so i put a little money on her books i
1:17:46go down and see her once a week
1:17:48because when you're in jail it's nice to
1:17:51get a little mail
1:17:52and it's and it's nice to get a visit
1:17:54those kind of things
1:17:56really really help you while you're in
1:17:59jail
1:18:00and having been in jail i understand
1:18:03that
1:18:04i understand what it's like to be there
1:18:07and
1:18:08there'd be nobody so i went down there
1:18:12i put money on the books i seen her she
1:18:14says well i'm getting out come pick me
1:18:15up i'll go pick her up
1:18:17but during the course of visiting her
1:18:19and putting money on her books she gave
1:18:20me this story well i'm gonna be clean
1:18:22now don't misunderstand me i wasn't drug
1:18:24free
1:18:25by no means but
1:18:28any any drugs i did you might say it was
1:18:31a functional
1:18:33a functional kind of drug it wasn't a a
1:18:36drug
1:18:36house where druggies all come and got
1:18:38high and what i didn't i didn't live
1:18:40that sort of style
1:18:41although i did occasionally use drugs so
1:18:44during the course of her being in jail
1:18:47she alleges well hey i'll get out of
1:18:49jail we'll clean up a little bit
1:18:51you know i've been dry i've been
1:18:52cleaning this amount of time i'm going
1:18:54to clean up
1:18:54so i go pick her up and as soon as she
1:18:56gets in the car she wants to go get some
1:18:57heroin
1:18:58and i told her i said well now she gets
1:19:00out of jail she's got her things she
1:19:01gets in the car
1:19:03she wants to go get some heroin and i
1:19:05said well you know
1:19:06you want to go get heroin i'll drop you
1:19:07off i mean myself i don't
1:19:10heroin is in pills that's not my drug i
1:19:12don't i don't mess with heroin
1:19:14or pills but uh i said well if you want
1:19:16to get some hair when i drop you off
1:19:17but i ain't waiting for you i ain't
1:19:19coming back to get you i drop her off
1:19:22and she stays there three two three four
1:19:24days probably four maybe five days
1:19:27shows up at the house she wants her
1:19:28stuff but she knows
1:19:30she knew not to bring anybody to my
1:19:33house a stranger
1:19:34that's the last thing i do is let a
1:19:36stranger in my house like that some
1:19:38other strange man i i i'm not that of
1:19:41that kind of mind
1:19:43so it was raining she comes back to get
1:19:45her stuff she gets some guy to drop her
1:19:47off
1:19:47she comes up to the house it's raining
1:19:49she wants her stuff i said there's your
1:19:50stuff
1:19:51and then i make her leave before she got
1:19:53hot and that's mostly where this
1:19:55testimony came from
1:19:56okay so it was just because she was mad
1:19:58at you yeah well i put her out in the
1:19:59rain with her bag of stuff and she
1:20:00wanted to ride i said i ain't giving you
1:20:02a ride i ain't got time
1:20:03i was doing something else and she she
1:20:06went away in the rain with her bag but
1:20:08it was grudgingly and then suddenly now
1:20:10she's testifying against me
1:20:12to a tree that didn't exist okay let's
1:20:15talk about why we're here
1:20:16why are we here mr fletcher before we do
1:20:20that we've been at it
1:20:21a little over an hour so let's take a
1:20:24comfort stretch break
1:20:25members of the jury do not discuss the
1:20:27case and we'll see you back in just a
1:20:28few moments
1:20:44hmm
1:21:41let's go back on the record uh mr
1:21:43mizrahi
1:21:44is there something you want to do
1:22:22okay
1:22:28mr fletcher
1:22:54well i understand where state's coming
1:22:55from i'm not sure
1:22:57i'll take it under advisement uh i'll
1:22:59ask that the state proffer those
1:23:01questions before
1:23:02um certainly he
1:23:05they get asked in front of the jury
1:23:09it may
1:23:12there's no question that the defendant
1:23:15did
1:23:16unsolicited mention that he is familiar
1:23:19with aggravating factors and
1:23:21what uh um what they are and what that
1:23:24means
1:23:26whether or not he
1:23:30has the knowledge or indicated in front
1:23:32of this jury that he has the specific
1:23:33knowledge about
1:23:34aggravating factors relating to prior
1:23:37violent felony convictions
1:23:39that's an issue that the court will
1:23:42consider in whether or not i would uh
1:23:45grant the state's
1:23:46request so in any event we'll
1:23:49we'll proffer it if that's what the
1:23:51state wants if state still intends to
1:23:53to go down that route obviously it's
1:23:56clearly unusual for a defendant to
1:23:59indicate knowledge on direct examination
1:24:03of
1:24:03aggravating factors so
1:24:05[Music]
1:24:08in any event that's that's my ruling or
1:24:10non-ruling at this point
1:24:13now i'd prefer to wait until after
1:24:14direct examination you can probably do
1:24:16it at the beginning we'll see how much
1:24:17longer the direct is
1:24:19we may take another break we may break
1:24:21for the evening
1:24:22we'll just see where we're at at the
1:24:24appropriate time
1:24:25okay are we ready to bring the jury back
1:24:29let's bring him back
1:25:04i think he may be seated and
1:25:07members of the jury of course it's about
1:25:084 30 remember i
1:25:10told you all yesterday that i couldn't
1:25:12promise you every night that we would be
1:25:14done at the close of business i suspect
1:25:16tonight we won't be
1:25:17uh finished at the close of business try
1:25:19not to keep you too late tonight
1:25:20but i just don't want you to think if we
1:25:22get close to five that we're getting
1:25:23ready to wrap up because that
1:25:24that may not be the case this evening so
1:25:27uh y'all are doing a great job
1:25:29uh staying awake and alert please
1:25:32continue with that
1:25:32if at any time you need a break
1:25:36if you need to just stand up for a
1:25:38second and take a stretch break and
1:25:41and wake yourself up or something please
1:25:42feel free to do that
1:25:44or get my attention and we'll take
1:25:46another quick break but with that
1:25:48let us continue mr
1:25:53your fletcher mr tillis i think i
1:25:56i ended with let's talk about why you're
1:25:58here
1:25:59right yes sir okay so tell me about the
1:26:03you've already told the jury that you
1:26:04knew that there was a body in the
1:26:05backyard right
1:26:06yes sir i have all right tell me about
1:26:08that day what happened
1:26:12uh well specific what day
1:26:15the the day that the body was put in
1:26:18your okay okay
1:26:19okay that's specific knowledge of how
1:26:22that occurred
1:26:24i uh i was at home in my residence
1:26:29i want to say it was april the 24th my
1:26:32birthday is the 22nd
1:26:33it was after my birthday before the end
1:26:35of the month i'm saying 24th
1:26:3725th and uh my brother arrives
1:26:40he calls me on the phone and uh
1:26:46he uh he uh asked me was i busy
1:26:50i told him no i always keep my front
1:26:52gates locked
1:26:53i have neighbors that call the police
1:26:54every day you know
1:26:57three times a day sometimes the police
1:26:59are on the street in front of my house
1:27:01my gates are always locked
1:27:04uh he calls me on the phone and he says
1:27:05i open the gates man i'm on my way over
1:27:08so i um i go out and open the gates
1:27:11and i hang around for him to drive up in
1:27:13the yard so i can lock him behind him
1:27:15and he drives up in the yard but he
1:27:18doesn't get out of the car
1:27:20and uh after i lock the gates he says
1:27:22open the garage up
1:27:24so i opened a garage that garage where
1:27:26you've seen those tools and all it's a
1:27:28six-car garage
1:27:30it's a very very large garage open the
1:27:33door and he drives the car in the garage
1:27:34he gets out and he's a little uh he's a
1:27:36little distraught
1:27:37a hysterical kind of put off
1:27:41and uh he said he needs some help so
1:27:44so he gets out of the car and uh
1:27:48he wants me to help him with a problem
1:27:50he goes around the back of the car and
1:27:51he opens the trunk
1:27:53and uh that's the first time i've seen
1:27:55johnny gunner
1:27:58what did you see well she was
1:28:02she was in the trunk and there was a
1:28:03mass amount of blood on her chest
1:28:07when she was dead he wanted me to get in
1:28:10the car with him
1:28:11and help him go down the street and
1:28:12dispose of him but i wouldn't get in the
1:28:14car
1:28:16i'm not getting in the car absolutely
1:28:19not
1:28:21okay so what happened next
1:28:25well after a brief confrontation about
1:28:28me getting
1:28:28me not getting in the car that
1:28:30conversation ended
1:28:32okay was your brother trying to get you
1:28:33to cover for you for him
1:28:36well he was trying to get me to assist
1:28:37him you know
1:28:40and and uh in covering up whatever had
1:28:44occurred
1:28:45mind you i don't know nor would have i
1:28:47ever questioned him
1:28:49about how how ms gunter met her death
1:28:53that i never i never breached that
1:28:54conversation with him
1:28:57okay so why did he come to you have you
1:28:59covered for him in the past
1:29:01well uh many times you gotta understand
1:29:04we're
1:29:04both in our mid 50s close age
1:29:08as the detective testified uh my brother
1:29:12was once caught with a stolen truck in
1:29:13his body shop
1:29:15that is one uh documented
1:29:18situation the uh
1:29:22the bill of sale that uh
1:29:26that detective sullivan was talking
1:29:27about was used
1:29:29in that stolen truck situation was
1:29:32written in my handwriting
1:29:34and i'm the one that provided that bill
1:29:37of sale for him to uh
1:29:39elude arrest for the stolen truck okay
1:29:42so tell the jury a little bit about how
1:29:43you
1:29:44accomplished that okay so i'm at home
1:29:46one day
1:29:47i don't remember the day i just remember
1:29:49it was the middle of the summer
1:29:51about 4 14 2014
1:29:54summer june july you'd have to check the
1:29:57police reports to get the date because i
1:29:58don't know
1:29:59him and uh my brother calls me on the
1:30:02phone and he's hysterical
1:30:04pretty much not not quite as bad as it
1:30:07was when he showed up at my house with
1:30:09miss gunter
1:30:10but he was hysterical and he said uh
1:30:13i need some help and uh
1:30:16the police are all over my all over my
1:30:17house and i got a hot truck in the shop
1:30:20and i need some help he said my son's
1:30:23going to be over there in a minute
1:30:26so he hangs up and his son shows up just
1:30:29a few minutes later
1:30:31son drives up and he said uh dad sent me
1:30:34over here
1:30:35you know so i uh
1:30:39i asked him for the vin number off the
1:30:40vehicle because in florida it's an open
1:30:43title law you don't have to have a
1:30:48you don't have to have a notarized title
1:30:50it can be open
1:30:51so uh bill of sale is a legal tender
1:30:54doesn't have to be notarized
1:30:57so but i had to have the vin numbers you
1:30:58can't write a bill of sale without
1:31:00without an id number on it so i asked
1:31:02him for the vin number
1:31:04he said he didn't have it my brother had
1:31:06just told me on the phone that the
1:31:07police were all over his house
1:31:09so i take a deed some of the property
1:31:11that i'm living on
1:31:13and i get in the truck and i go to my
1:31:16brother's house
1:31:17and i get out with the deed and there's
1:31:18cops everywhere they got two records in
1:31:21there
1:31:21they're retrieving the stolen vehicle
1:31:23they're retrieving the vehicle that the
1:31:24stolen parts are going on
1:31:26and there's cops everywhere probably
1:31:2830-40 cops in the yard
1:31:31so i uh
1:31:34the police wouldn't let me on the
1:31:35property first and then i flashed the
1:31:38the deed which looked like a legal
1:31:39document and i told them that there was
1:31:41some
1:31:42real estate transactions and that i
1:31:44needed my brother's signature because
1:31:45the attorney was waiting on him
1:31:47and i didn't have time with his you know
1:31:49i mean if he couldn't let me go to my
1:31:50brother to get the signature he had to
1:31:52go get my brother and bring him to me
1:31:53i had to have the signature so he let me
1:31:55cross the little
1:31:56line there and go into the yard once i
1:31:59got into the yard i told my brother i
1:32:00said i'll
1:32:02point the truck out so he did
1:32:06so i told him i said well the minute i'm
1:32:09going to tell i got to use the bathroom
1:32:11you direct me over here against the
1:32:12fence you pull the cop off that truck
1:32:15so i went over to the fence to to
1:32:18to use the bathroom and he draws the
1:32:20cops attention
1:32:21i sneak around the vehicles i get the
1:32:24vin number off the dash
1:32:26i leave so i go back to the house
1:32:29and there's no one the time frame there
1:32:31was no one to write the bill of sale i
1:32:33didn't
1:32:33normally i would never use my penmanship
1:32:36to put on a
1:32:37on a document like that for fear of
1:32:40uh handwriting samples coming back to me
1:32:44so but the time frame it didn't have
1:32:46time
1:32:48so i wrote the bill sale myself that he
1:32:49had bought it from a girl named julie
1:32:52something i can't remember the last name
1:32:54i used and uh
1:32:56then i called my nephew his son and i
1:32:59said i
1:32:59come by get the bill of sale so he came
1:33:01by and got the bill of sale
1:33:03and uh i instructed him what to do he
1:33:06took the bill of sale to my brother they
1:33:07produced it to the police
1:33:08the police confiscated both vehicles
1:33:11they hailed the vehicles
1:33:13they searched for the person on the bill
1:33:15of sale which was a victious person
1:33:17they never found and eventually not only
1:33:20did the police give the stolen vehicle
1:33:22back to my brother with a clear title
1:33:24they gave him back the automobile that
1:33:25he was putting the stolen parts on
1:33:29so that that is a documented
1:33:33event where he has spontaneously called
1:33:36me
1:33:36for that sort of assistance but that is
1:33:40not the only time that man has ever
1:33:42stepped up to the plate
1:33:44on a spontaneous moment and said look i
1:33:47need some help
1:33:48help me and he
1:33:51he uh he knows i'll help him he's my
1:33:54brother
1:33:58okay and after your arrest in the
1:34:01homicide case did you
1:34:03tell detective sullivan that you're not
1:34:05going to get a brother
1:34:07did you make that well i had an attorney
1:34:10once
1:34:11i told him the story
1:34:16he told me that uh if i would reveal
1:34:19everything i knew
1:34:20that i could trade that information to
1:34:22the state
1:34:23and and i wouldn't have to suffer the
1:34:25murder charge
1:34:28one of the court-appointed attorneys i
1:34:30believe it was carlisle but i'm not sure
1:34:33but i told carl allen i said no i'm not
1:34:36going to get on the stand and testify
1:34:38against my brother
1:34:39i told sullivan when he took me to the
1:34:41jail
1:34:42i'm not going to do that i sit here now
1:34:45and i tell the story
1:34:46yes i do and i will tell the whole story
1:34:50but let's say the scenario is
1:34:53that that suddenly the state hears this
1:34:56and they go arrest him
1:35:00i'm not going to get understand and
1:35:01testify against him i wouldn't
1:35:03give a rat's ass what they do to me that
1:35:05ain't going to happen
1:35:07i will tell my story and what i did and
1:35:10that's as far as i go
1:35:11the involvement of my brother well
1:35:15that's the reason i put him in the
1:35:16confession so when i got the death
1:35:19penalty he'd know
1:35:24that you were covering for him no that i
1:35:26was taking the death sentence for
1:35:28him well let me back you up
1:35:31you were in jail on that second degree
1:35:34felony
1:35:35yeah and you got indicted in this case
1:35:37right yeah
1:35:38and then that second degree felony got
1:35:41disposed
1:35:42of yeah that lane campbell
1:35:46that testified the house she rented next
1:35:49door to her
1:35:50i told my lawyer that those people hated
1:35:52me so much they saved that
1:35:54arrest video i knew they had it and i
1:35:57told my lawyer i said they'll never
1:35:59throw it away they'll save it for a
1:36:00souvenir
1:36:02a year later when the body was recovered
1:36:05yes we came running out with the video
1:36:08so your lawyer got the video yeah and
1:36:09that's how he got it she had saved it
1:36:11for a souvenir
1:36:12and then when she seen the body being
1:36:14dug up and all the media
1:36:15she thought she was hurting me by
1:36:17running out and offering the video here
1:36:19i have his arrest
1:36:20would you like to see when he was
1:36:21arrested and what did the video not have
1:36:24in it
1:36:25the knife standoff it immediately proved
1:36:29the cops had lied they had not just
1:36:32fabricated a report
1:36:33they had written a complete lie a whole
1:36:37page
1:36:38describing a knife standoff that never
1:36:40occurred
1:36:41and then what did this man do he put the
1:36:43cop on the stand anyway
1:36:45and took me into a trial and tried to
1:36:46give me 30 years knowing the cop was
1:36:49lying
1:36:51didn't you name mr rahee mr
1:36:54mr tillis just answer the questions yes
1:36:56sir
1:36:57mr tell us did did you eventually get
1:37:00offered time served in that case
1:37:02yeah well what happened was i run across
1:37:04a guy named james boyle
1:37:06well i tell you i was having a hard time
1:37:07getting the lawyer to help me
1:37:09but but the investigator that i had
1:37:11gotten when i was representing myself
1:37:13she took a liking to me once she started
1:37:15seeing what was going on
1:37:17she said i'll help you for nothing you
1:37:18don't even have to pay me
1:37:21so at that point i run across a guy
1:37:25named james boyle he was a public
1:37:26defender
1:37:28and he come over to the jail i was
1:37:29representing myself and he says
1:37:31if you relinquish your pro se status and
1:37:33let me represent you
1:37:35i'll help you i said he talked me into
1:37:38it
1:37:39i mean the guy he sounds sincere i
1:37:42couldn't
1:37:43i mean i might be smart and i might know
1:37:44a little bit about the law but i'm not a
1:37:46litigator i can't come into this
1:37:48courtroom and litigate a case
1:37:50i mean way over my head so i accepted
1:37:52his offer
1:37:53so then i told that's when the the body
1:37:55was being resumed
1:37:57the media jumped off immediate coverage
1:38:00and then i tell him i'm telling you
1:38:03i told him where the video was of my
1:38:05arrest i said if you want to help me in
1:38:07the aggravated assault
1:38:08go get the video and he told me
1:38:11once i get the video they'll take me off
1:38:13your case
1:38:15and they did the video come up in the
1:38:17news the video popped up
1:38:18and they removed him from my case the
1:38:20public defender's office did
1:38:21they didn't want him helping me but what
1:38:23happened was
1:38:25at that about a month or two after they
1:38:27took him off the case
1:38:28he went into private practice go figure
1:38:31so then i get in an argument with my
1:38:33lawyers
1:38:34i fired maybe 20 lawyers back to back
1:38:37back to back
1:38:38i was steady firing them and i was
1:38:40catching a hard time from your honor
1:38:42brillo there
1:38:43terrible hard time but i was firing them
1:38:45left and right
1:38:47eventually the court appointed
1:38:50mr boyle to represent me he left the
1:38:52public defender's office went in private
1:38:54practice
1:38:56and judge bruhler appointed to represent
1:38:58me and the guy stuck true to his word he
1:39:00helped me he took me into court took me
1:39:02into the trial
1:39:03but he wasn't a real little a real good
1:39:05litigator but the guy had a good heart
1:39:07and he was trying to help me
1:39:09that was worth a lot so we get a
1:39:11mistrial state was withholding evidence
1:39:14go figure so anyway we end up with a
1:39:17mistrial
1:39:18so we scheduled a new trial 30 days away
1:39:21but mr mizrahi he was fighting at the
1:39:23chunk at the bit there he wanted to
1:39:25proceed with the death case
1:39:27so he says look we'll just plea out to
1:39:30the aggravated assault and we won't use
1:39:31it against you during the murder case
1:39:33let's just drop it move on into the
1:39:34murder
1:39:36i was having a hell of a fight so i
1:39:38agreed to the deal
1:39:40and here i am okay so but the 30 years
1:39:43went away
1:39:44go figure 30 years went away but but now
1:39:47you've confessed to
1:39:48a first reporter and sex trafficking
1:39:52and human trafficking yeah all that
1:39:54stuff right i've done all that yes sir
1:39:56okay was any of that stuff really done
1:39:58by you well
1:40:00it was a hell of a mess you know
1:40:03but all right so
1:40:07as you're proceeding through the court
1:40:09system on the first degree murder case
1:40:12you want all your lawyers and i think
1:40:13i'm your 12th right
1:40:15well i haven't counted but but you're up
1:40:17there you're in the digit double digits
1:40:19yes sir double digits
1:40:20and i've tried to fire you multiple
1:40:21times okay yeah
1:40:23um there was one person you wanted to be
1:40:26brought
1:40:26to the courtroom that whole time who was
1:40:28that
1:40:30sammy evans yeah but see
1:40:34the thing was when i was telling my
1:40:36lawyers that
1:40:37that sammy and i were that he that that
1:40:40i was aware that he was wearing the wire
1:40:43and that he had none of my lawyers
1:40:46believed me
1:40:46none of them they kept telling me you're
1:40:49nuts mandy
1:40:50the dude had a wire on he caught you you
1:40:52confessed to a murder
1:40:53you're gonna have to wear it you did it
1:40:57and i said no you don't understand this
1:40:59dude i knew he was wired
1:41:00but evans he had a very convincing story
1:41:03and he had the police to back him up
1:41:05no evans evans recorded him secretly
1:41:09even the cops all thought he did so no
1:41:11one believed me
1:41:12nobody but then again nobody believed me
1:41:16the cops were throwing rocks at my house
1:41:18but i proved that nobody believed that
1:41:20the knife standoff never happened
1:41:22but i proved that nobody believed that
1:41:25sammy
1:41:25was that i knew he was wired nobody
1:41:27believed it but i proved that too
1:41:30didn't i how did you prove that what'd
1:41:33you do
1:41:35desperation despair despair and
1:41:38desperation
1:41:40right i got mad at you because i wanted
1:41:43to forge the note i'm wired
1:41:45and i wanted you to help me but ethical
1:41:47reasons you couldn't do it but i had to
1:41:49respect that
1:41:50i mean you jeopardized your career
1:41:52bringing false information into the
1:41:54court and lying to judge brillo
1:41:55i really couldn't hold that against you
1:41:57i can't do that well yeah right
1:41:59so what i did was i filed a motion to
1:42:01waive counsel and i kicked him out of
1:42:03the way
1:42:04i can do it i'm not hold i'm not held to
1:42:07any ethical standards in front of this
1:42:08judge
1:42:10after what i've been through in this
1:42:11courtroom i didn't really care
1:42:14okay so at that point i was fired right
1:42:16yeah you were fired you were stand by
1:42:17council you were still present but you
1:42:19just
1:42:20come to court when you came yeah and
1:42:21you'd stand beside me but i was the
1:42:23lawyer
1:42:24tell the jury what you did so what i did
1:42:25was evans had written several letters to
1:42:28the police
1:42:29begging for assistance as soon as he
1:42:32turned in that
1:42:33tenth recording he wrote a letter he was
1:42:36wanting to get paid
1:42:37i'm telling you that man was desperate
1:42:40and he was obsessed with getting out
1:42:42trading that body for the for the
1:42:44assistance and he was begging for it
1:42:46but what happens with in a case a
1:42:48criminal case is
1:42:50if if the state receives some evidence
1:42:53they must give it to me so i can examine
1:42:55it so they had to give me salmon
1:42:58sammy evans letters sammy evans has a
1:43:01very distinct handwriting
1:43:04so what i did was i took the letter and
1:43:06i took some drawing paper that was kind
1:43:08of clear
1:43:09and i laid it on top of it and i drew a
1:43:11grid
1:43:13because evan's slant to the left with
1:43:16his letters
1:43:16a very unusual handwriting
1:43:20so once i got the grid drew to
1:43:23his handwriting i took the grid and i
1:43:26laid a piece of paper over the top of it
1:43:28because i remembered i'm wired was
1:43:32written right in the middle of the page
1:43:34it was only two words i couldn't confuse
1:43:36them but they had to look
1:43:38good and he had that distinctive
1:43:39handwriting so it took me about
1:43:42i'm representing myself i'm the lawyer
1:43:45so it took me about two weeks so i
1:43:48forged the note
1:43:49i'm wired and it looked good
1:43:53so then now i've got the note i put it
1:43:56in an envelope
1:43:57now i allege that is the note he gave me
1:44:01then i file a motion i need a
1:44:03handwriting expert
1:44:04because i'm going to put this letter in
1:44:07sammy evan's hand
1:44:09i need a i need a fingerprint analysis
1:44:11expert
1:44:12because his fingerprints are on it he
1:44:14gave me the note
1:44:16but i knew it was forged so i turned my
1:44:19emotions into the court just like a
1:44:20lawyer
1:44:21but what does judge grillo do true to
1:44:23his prejudice
1:44:24to all pro se litigants he denies all
1:44:27the motions
1:44:28he won't give them to me had he granted
1:44:31the motion for the fingerprint expert
1:44:34and and the handwriting expert it would
1:44:37have proved the note was
1:44:39forgery and i'd have been caught in my
1:44:41line
1:44:42or my strategic perjury whatever you
1:44:44want to call it
1:44:46so but judge brillo he played right into
1:44:49the prejudice
1:44:50i'm not granting any of your emotions mr
1:44:52tillis this is what we're going to do
1:44:54we're going to photograph this note and
1:44:57we're going to show it to sammy evans
1:44:59and we're going to give him the
1:45:00opportunity to either deny
1:45:03or admit writing the note so i made a
1:45:06big fanfare
1:45:07out of this note in the courtroom and it
1:45:10was a big drama scene
1:45:11and i lay the note on the table and mr
1:45:13mizrahi photographs it
1:45:16and he takes it to sammy evans and he
1:45:18shows evans the photograph and what
1:45:20happens
1:45:21sammy evan's conscience begins working
1:45:23on him
1:45:24he knows he wrote the note he knows the
1:45:26truth
1:45:28now is now his lawyer's telling him look
1:45:31if you wrote the note
1:45:32this guy's fixing to get a fingerprint
1:45:34expert if your fingerprints are on that
1:45:35note boy you're in trouble
1:45:37now his conscience is working on him
1:45:39pretty good so what does he do
1:45:41he admits to writing the note he admits
1:45:44to some of the truth but you got to
1:45:47understand
1:45:48sammy evans has already got partial
1:45:51payment
1:45:52for his assistance for his bo for giving
1:45:55the state the body
1:45:56he has already received partial
1:45:59assistance
1:46:01sustained okay so anyway
1:46:06so so now evans admits yeah yeah he
1:46:09admits
1:46:10he admits to writing it but he won't he
1:46:12won't admit to the whole truth
1:46:14i mean he's he's been caught in a lie
1:46:17he's he's deceived the police he's
1:46:19deceived the state
1:46:20he's he's been seeking assistance he's
1:46:22written letters
1:46:23and now and now he's got to stand up and
1:46:26he's got to say
1:46:27yeah okay i lied i mean it's a pretty
1:46:29bad moment
1:46:30but now i'm still the lawyer okay i'm
1:46:33still representing myself and mr
1:46:35fletcher is a standby council
1:46:37so what do i do then i file a motion i
1:46:40want to take mr evans deposition
1:46:42so i have the state attorney bring mr
1:46:44evans to the state attorney's office and
1:46:46he sits across the table from me
1:46:47and i am the lawyer i take his
1:46:50deposition
1:46:51whereupon he admits yeah i wrote the
1:46:54note
1:46:55yeah i lied to the police he tells some
1:46:58of the truth
1:46:59but he's grudgingly holding on to all
1:47:02other parts
1:47:03he won't relinquish them but he knows
1:47:06he knows the truth okay mr um
1:47:10mr tillis did you murder jody gunter
1:47:12absolutely not
1:47:14thank you sir that's all i have okay
1:47:20cross-examination
1:47:34oh
1:47:59mr tillis to begin i want to make sure
1:48:01that we're clear about
1:48:03have you ever been convicted of a felony
1:48:06yes sir
1:48:07and that the number was 14 correct yeah
1:48:09i believe that with the number yes sir
1:48:11okay you know it's the number yeah okay
1:48:15and you have been convicted of a crime
1:48:17involving dishonesty or false statement
1:48:19correct
1:48:19yes sir i believe i have one of those
1:48:21okay and in this very case
1:48:24just a few minutes ago you coined the
1:48:28phrase
1:48:29strategic perjury
1:48:32what does that mean to you that means
1:48:36when you're facing death
1:48:37and you know that this man is going to
1:48:39go in front of a jury and lie to the
1:48:41jury and get you a death penalty
1:48:43because he's written it in the letter to
1:48:45the cops
1:48:46i'll testify against mr tillis he was
1:48:48telling the detective
1:48:49i'll go into the courtroom and i'll lie
1:48:51and i'll get mr tillis a death penalty
1:48:55so despair despair depression
1:48:58desperation i strategically purge
1:49:01myself i forge a note and i trick him to
1:49:04tell the truth
1:49:05i did that right you will
1:49:09perjure yourself when strategically
1:49:13it benefits you correct i think when the
1:49:17truth is involved
1:49:18all means are all means are on mr tillis
1:49:22when the truth is involved
1:49:24lying is what is necessary is that what
1:49:28you're saying
1:49:30no that is not what i'm saying mr tillis
1:49:33you have the greatest interest of any
1:49:35witness in how this case is decided
1:49:36correct
1:49:39to be honest with you i don't really
1:49:42care about the death penalty mr marahi
1:49:44okay uh where are you
1:49:48my testimony isn't about that
1:49:52okay so you as you sit here today you
1:49:54have no care in the world whether this
1:49:56jury convicts you or not
1:49:58i trust fate okay faith
1:50:01well which to be supposed to be my
1:50:03testimony isn't about me eluding the
1:50:05death penalty that's really not what
1:50:06this is about right now
1:50:09okay it's about strategic perjury no
1:50:12now your statements on the wire would
1:50:15convict you of all four charges correct
1:50:20my statement on the wire can do what
1:50:22would
1:50:23be enough to convict you of first-degree
1:50:25murder
1:50:26kidnapping human trafficking and abuse
1:50:29of a dead human body correct
1:50:31well there's a there's a case law
1:50:32doctrine called corpus delecti
1:50:34i don't believe you've ever proved the
1:50:36body of the kidnapping or the human
1:50:38trafficking
1:50:39you didn't hear the testimony about
1:50:41johnny gunther's uh dismembered body
1:50:43just
1:50:44by the medical examiner how does
1:50:45dismembered body how is that the body of
1:50:48a kidnapping
1:50:49you're telling me joanie gunder's
1:50:50remains constitutes a kidnapping
1:50:53i don't understand that one let me ask
1:50:55this one at a time you would agree
1:50:57that if what you said on the liar is
1:50:59true you're guilty of first-degree
1:51:01murder correct
1:51:04if i said well if what you said
1:51:07to sammy evans is true you're guilty of
1:51:11first-degree murder correct
1:51:13if what i said to him is true it wasn't
1:51:15true
1:51:17i understand that okay i'm giving you a
1:51:20hypothetical
1:51:21hypothetical situation if it was true
1:51:23yes i would be subject to that
1:51:26if hypothetically if what you said is
1:51:28true you'd be guilty of kidnapping
1:51:29correct
1:51:33if yes sir apathetically if what you
1:51:36said was true you would be guilty of
1:51:38human trafficking
1:51:39yes sir yes sir hypothetically if what
1:51:42you said was true
1:51:43you would be guilty of abusing a dead
1:51:45human body yes sir correct yes sir i'll
1:51:48give you that
1:51:50so i want to go through and discuss with
1:51:52you all the truth
1:51:54that exists in that recorded statement
1:51:56okay
1:51:58well that may be a problem because i
1:51:59don't remember all of what's in the
1:52:01statement it's rather
1:52:02worried mr tillis i remember we we got
1:52:04it recorded so we'll just go through it
1:52:06i think this will be really easy for us
1:52:07okay
1:52:08all right i'll try to your address that
1:52:11you
1:52:11lived at 3 5 5 1 circle east was true
1:52:15correct yeah that was true
1:52:16and you lived there correct yes sir that
1:52:18was true then the main part of the house
1:52:20at least for getting the trail apart you
1:52:22live there alone
1:52:22correct uh yeah
1:52:26yeah i say that okay and your house was
1:52:28scheduled to be
1:52:30condemned and demolished correct
1:52:33i don't think it had been scheduled at
1:52:34that time but you're right it was not
1:52:37scheduled
1:52:37it had been condemned and at some point
1:52:39it was going to be demolished
1:52:41well the condemned notice had been hung
1:52:43on the fence but the uh
1:52:45scheduled demolition not to my knowledge
1:52:48you knew that it was possible that based
1:52:51on the
1:52:52condemned notice that your house would
1:52:53be demolished well there's always a
1:52:55possibility
1:52:56right and that's what you were talking
1:52:58about on the wire
1:53:00yes sir it was a prelude to introduce
1:53:03the statement
1:53:04i understand it was a prelude but it was
1:53:06a true prelude yes sir
1:53:08yes sir is the answer right okay well i
1:53:10did know that the place was condemned
1:53:11and it was possible to
1:53:12be scheduled for deposition to
1:53:14demolition because of the
1:53:16condemned notice yes sir okay it is true
1:53:18that you have had multiple problems with
1:53:21all of your neighbors correct i believe
1:53:23that's rather evident from the record
1:53:25and you talk about that on your wire
1:53:26correct yes sir okay
1:53:28it's true that you would operate your
1:53:30power equipment like saws
1:53:32at night correct no it's true you would
1:53:35operate your power washer at all times
1:53:37during the day and night correct
1:53:39no it's true that noises would be coming
1:53:42out of your house late at night correct
1:53:45well i don't know what you consider
1:53:46noises slamming the door
1:53:49no that was that's not true all that's
1:53:51fabrication
1:53:52pretty much all of it yes sir
1:53:56you did hang large tarps
1:53:59surrounding your entire property correct
1:54:01yes sir i had
1:54:02was that to keep out the burglars no
1:54:05that was keep the uh
1:54:07keep the neighbors from uh the
1:54:09harassment
1:54:10one on one side of me the neighbor was
1:54:13so obsessed that he mounted his security
1:54:15cameras on top of the telephone pole
1:54:17so he could watch me over the fence your
1:54:20tarps were there
1:54:22to conceal what you were doing
1:54:26in that house correct how do the tarps
1:54:29in the yard have anything to do with
1:54:30what i'm doing in the house
1:54:32yes or no mr tillis no that's not why
1:54:34they were there
1:54:35mr tillis it is true that you owned a
1:54:38sawzall
1:54:39reciprocating saw during this time
1:54:41period correct
1:54:42actually i own multiple multiple ones
1:54:44multiple skill saws multiple chainsaws
1:54:46the reason they aren't in the
1:54:48photographs of the garage is because
1:54:50someone went in there and stole my truck
1:54:51and all my tools
1:54:52during the first week i was in jail that
1:54:54garage was full of tools
1:54:56probably had thirty thousand dollars
1:54:58with the hand tools i owned a home
1:54:59improvement business at one point
1:55:01and the tools were left over i had
1:55:02multiple saws multiple sawzalls
1:55:05all pretty much any sort of home repair
1:55:08tool that you
1:55:09would need to work on your house okay
1:55:11and you had
1:55:12multiple sawzall blades correct yes
1:55:15okay and you had lots of wetlands and
1:55:18woods that were just down the street
1:55:20from your house correct
1:55:23yes sir right hottsburgh creek right
1:55:26well the area's not that big but there
1:55:27is some there is a
1:55:28there is a three lake called morgan lake
1:55:30down there three lakes joining i was
1:55:32been fishing in that lake since i was
1:55:33five years old
1:55:34you know it well yes sir i do and
1:55:37hypothetically mr tillis if you were to
1:55:40hide
1:55:40something there a body child dismembered
1:55:42bodies in there
1:55:43it would be hard to find correct i think
1:55:46it would be even harder to get the body
1:55:48down there
1:55:49if you chopped it up and stuck it in the
1:55:51backpack and biked your way down there
1:55:53and dug it up
1:55:54and came out of the woods with a shovel
1:55:55would it mr tillis well
1:55:58and here you tell it i mean i guess not
1:56:00no no it's how you tell it
1:56:02not how i tell it these are your words
1:56:04mr tillis my words on the recording
1:56:06you're right
1:56:06yes sir yes mr tillis you do have chains
1:56:09hanging in your garage correct
1:56:11yes sir and it would be consistent with
1:56:13what you said
1:56:14to sami evans that you would hang
1:56:18your victims to dismember them correct
1:56:24i don't know if i stated that in that
1:56:26particular language but
1:56:27i would i would concede that yes those
1:56:30chains in the ceiling that were used for
1:56:32pulling motors out of cars
1:56:33they could be used for anything they
1:56:36were stationary chains that were never
1:56:38taken down and never putting up
1:56:39they just stayed there all the time well
1:56:41certainly you're not going to pull the
1:56:42motor out of the car from the chain
1:56:44that's just hanging down
1:56:46a little bit right there had to be
1:56:47another chain that would get lower
1:56:49so you could pull out a motor right
1:56:50generally it was a come along okay
1:56:52but we didn't see those no no you didn't
1:56:54have it stolen with the sawzall
1:56:57i don't know if they were still in the
1:56:58garage or whether they were taken i
1:56:59haven't been out to go
1:57:00inspect the garage i understand but
1:57:02there were there were come alongs in the
1:57:04garage
1:57:04okay i will say that i would agree that
1:57:06your garage had plenty of room
1:57:10to be able to complete the task of
1:57:12dismemberment of a body correct
1:57:14it was a facility that could be used for
1:57:15that yes sir facility that was your
1:57:17that was your word right yes sir a
1:57:19facility a building a facility
1:57:22now you would agree that you know a lot
1:57:26of women
1:57:27um on drugs and they prostitute
1:57:29themselves correct
1:57:30well i grew up in that area most of them
1:57:32i know their mothers and their brothers
1:57:33and their families
1:57:34okay and you had a lot of their
1:57:36paperwork in your house
1:57:39correct well that paperwork in the house
1:57:41wasn't
1:57:42just from that i also wrote pen pals in
1:57:45prison
1:57:46as you s as you stated or one of the
1:57:48witnesses stated i believe
1:57:50that uh it might have been detective
1:57:51sullivan that there were
1:57:53uh information from girls that were
1:57:56incarcerated
1:57:57they were in prison i wrote them because
1:58:00when you're in jail and you don't get no
1:58:01mail you don't have no money
1:58:03i kind of know what that feels like so i
1:58:05would go to the internet i would
1:58:07go into the pen pal list and i'd pick a
1:58:09couple and i
1:58:10i wrote them i'd send them a few dollars
1:58:12and many of those names
1:58:14were associated with that they were
1:58:17people that were incarcerated
1:58:18some of them were never getting out
1:58:22so um
1:58:26you knew i'm going to go through some of
1:58:27the names of the people that were in
1:58:29your house okay
1:58:30okay mr tell us because in your wire you
1:58:33describe
1:58:34how you would pick up these girls
1:58:38phillips highway
1:58:39you know get them back to your house and
1:58:41then you would do all the things you
1:58:42said you would do about human
1:58:43trafficking yes sir
1:58:44okay so i want to talk about these girls
1:58:47these are some of the girls that maybe
1:58:48you met on phillips highway okay
1:58:50christina habib h-a-b-e-e-d
1:58:55a prostitute when you met she met you at
1:58:58the bp station on phillips highway
1:59:00to engage in sex acts okay you know her
1:59:05i don't know refresh my memory i'm sorry
1:59:07say that refresh my memory
1:59:11she said that she willingly got in your
1:59:13car and then drove off to saint
1:59:14augustine
1:59:15where you became aggressive with her
1:59:18state that again i missed that sir it
1:59:21doesn't matter
1:59:22so you're not sure if you know her or
1:59:23not well if you refresh my memory it may
1:59:26it may jog my memory
1:59:28i mean sometimes my memory's a little
1:59:30bad but i mean it's not real bad
1:59:32sometimes a little jog would would help
1:59:34me
1:59:35probably not because i don't know
1:59:44i i was thinking maybe you had some sort
1:59:46of paperwork you wanted to
1:59:47address that might i don't know
1:59:53generally if if the if i don't know the
1:59:56girl's family or a brother or
1:59:58father or a mother or know her from some
2:00:01uh other source
2:00:04they those those girls generally go by
2:00:06names that are just street names
2:00:08and they're i wouldn't recognize the
2:00:11name you know what i mean
2:00:24no she doesn't look familiar nothing i
2:00:27recall
2:00:35okay we'll go through another one
2:00:39danielle goodwood you know her
2:00:42you picked her up at a bus stop
2:00:4516th in main street where you have your
2:00:47little shop
2:00:50what about her no it doesn't ring a bell
2:00:53do you remember the year
2:00:54sure 2016. 16.
2:00:57i'm sorry that's when we spoke to her
2:00:59that's the wrong year i'll have the year
2:01:00in front of me
2:01:01you say i wasn't i don't i don't
2:01:04remember the name
2:01:08how about uh contessa lerner
2:01:11f-l-e-n-e-r okay there's a test station
2:01:14on san juan avenue
2:01:15the test is a pretty a pretty unusual
2:01:18name i
2:01:19would seem like i would recall that but
2:01:20i don't okay
2:01:22what about brittany proctor
2:01:25moving gas at smokers express on bay
2:01:27meadows
2:01:30no i don't
2:01:33what about alyssa webber she knew you
2:01:36was rusty
2:01:39no nothing well if she's using the name
2:01:42rusty
2:01:42then it could be a childhood because
2:01:44that was a nickname that i
2:01:45abandoned probably in my early 20s since
2:01:482021
2:01:50no one's called me that people call me
2:01:52russell now
2:01:53so that probably is a very old if she's
2:01:56addressing me by that particular name
2:01:59well she but she was working probably in
2:02:012014
2:02:03as a prostitute off phillips highway
2:02:05remember anything about that
2:02:06no she wouldn't be calling me rusty at
2:02:07that time i was
2:02:09julie ann williams yeah i knew her
2:02:11father you know her right
2:02:12i knew her father she was working as a
2:02:14prostitute too in the mayport area when
2:02:16you picked her up right um
2:02:20yeah i believe so i knew i i worked with
2:02:22her father one time
2:02:23and uh he worked he lived over there on
2:02:25the trailer park on beach boulevard
2:02:28by maybe right at st john's bluff and
2:02:30beach that went dixie
2:02:32there was a trailer park in there ronnie
2:02:33was his name i think she actually stayed
2:02:35with you right
2:02:36off and on she would come there back and
2:02:37forth
2:02:39until she got away so she got away until
2:02:42she fled out of a window
2:02:44remember that i don't recall that
2:02:46incident no how about michelle pierce
2:02:50i believe she's deceased you have
2:02:53anything to do with that
2:02:55i was in jail no i know you didn't
2:02:58um miss pierce said that um that she
2:03:01lived with you stayed with you for time
2:03:02too
2:03:03hold on hold on um
2:03:06[Music]
2:03:08sure members of the jury
2:03:11uh i think i've already told you this uh
2:03:14once before in the pre-covet era
2:03:17an attorney asking to approach would be
2:03:19a simple matter we just come up here and
2:03:20we'd all huddle together
2:03:23they don't like me to do that these days
2:03:25so to keep everybody socially distant
2:03:27i'm going to need
2:03:28the jury to exit the courtroom for just
2:03:30a few moments remember do not discuss
2:03:32the case
2:04:00karen just stopped working by the way
2:04:02but we'll we'll deal with it in a second
2:04:04you want me to go
2:04:05sit over here stay where you are
2:04:13okay jerry has left the courtroom mr
2:04:22fletcher
2:04:40how did
2:04:52state first of all the state did file
2:04:54notice on all of these and it was part
2:04:55of the news i will concede
2:04:57um that the state in its case in chief
2:05:00was only going to present one
2:05:03of these witnesses i believe the defense
2:05:04has opened the door how do they open the
2:05:07door
2:05:07they open the door by indicating that
2:05:09this wire is false and he's talking
2:05:11about all these different women
2:05:13there were prostitutes and drug addicts
2:05:15in this house and i'm trying to
2:05:17corroborate that that is a true fact
2:05:19by asking the defendant if he had
2:05:20prostitutes and drug addicts in and out
2:05:22of his house
2:05:23during this period of time i have in
2:05:25every single case moved on
2:05:27once he either stops asking me for more
2:05:30information
2:05:30or denies it okay well
2:05:35i'm going to sustain the objection in
2:05:36part and overrule the objection in part
2:05:38i think the state
2:05:39is allowed to ask the
2:05:43defendant if he knows these women the
2:05:46circumstances under which he knows these
2:05:48women
2:05:49the um and if he needs to have his
2:05:52memory refreshed i think
2:05:54as the state did with at least one of
2:05:57them
2:05:58uh but it's at this point it's
2:06:01impeachment on a collateral matter which
2:06:04the state is required to accept the
2:06:06defendant's answer
2:06:07uh and move on so i think
2:06:11the door has been opened to that extent
2:06:12that the state is allowed to ask
2:06:14the defendant how he may know the
2:06:17witness
2:06:18and what the experiences were
2:06:21and just leave it at that and move on
2:06:23court's not ruling whether it's
2:06:25potentially admissible in rebuttal
2:06:28or what have you but that's where we're
2:06:42at
2:06:49well if he and this is where i'm
2:06:52sustaining the objection in part if he
2:06:54asked the witness
2:06:55if he asked the witness in this case the
2:06:56defendant
2:06:58how he knows the person if he doesn't
2:07:00know them
2:07:02then that's the end of it you can't say
2:07:03well you don't if he says i don't know
2:07:05him i suppose
2:07:08if there's some issue of refreshing the
2:07:10memory as a person who flew out the
2:07:12window something like that
2:07:13but for the most part if if he's got to
2:07:15take the witness
2:07:17at the answer and that's the end of it
2:07:20so
2:07:23i mean if there's an agreement that they
2:07:25know that they know each other then at
2:07:27that point
2:07:27they may be allowed to go a little
2:07:28further he says he doesn't know and
2:07:31that's the end of it
2:07:36well i'll rule on that at the time but
2:07:39that's i haven't been faced with that
2:07:40issue i do think the defense has opened
2:07:42the door though to the circumstances
2:07:44behind him knowing these other women
2:07:46and and
2:07:49and what the circumstances were of the
2:07:53knowing i mean look at this point of the
2:07:56trial
2:07:57and this began with the defense jury
2:07:59selection
2:08:01seems to me that all cards were on the
2:08:03table the defense
2:08:05basically you can call it a hypothetical
2:08:07you can say whatever you want but the
2:08:08defense
2:08:09in their jury selection put forth
2:08:12evidence of the defendant's prior bad
2:08:14acts including violent
2:08:16sexual acts that's been there now that's
2:08:18not evidence
2:08:19but then continuing with the
2:08:23clear defense in this case including the
2:08:25defendant's testimony here
2:08:28i think that has opened the door so i
2:08:29think my ruling is clear
2:08:31if he doesn't it's impeachment on a
2:08:33collateral matter state has to accept
2:08:35the defendant's answer
2:08:36and move on all right
2:08:40may i consult with mike no not in the
2:08:42middle of your cross examination no sir
2:08:44you may not
2:08:45bring the jury back in
2:08:53yeah it just stopped i don't know why
2:08:59it's it's not a big deal because i can
2:09:00see over your shoulders and
2:09:02i don't want you to spend a lot of time
2:09:03working on it
2:09:06yeah i know i can see it but if i need
2:09:07to i can see it over your shoulder
2:09:10hold on before you bring the durian
2:09:15yes sir
2:09:30um
2:09:36well your motion for mistrial is denied
2:09:38i don't think there's been anything
2:09:39objection
2:09:40objectionable to this point that hasn't
2:09:44been it's either been overruled by the
2:09:47court or sustained by the court as i saw
2:09:49appropriate
2:09:50uh i don't think the jury has heard
2:09:52anything that was
2:09:53unduly prejudicial let's put that away
2:09:58okay let's bring him in
2:10:46okay thank you you may be seated
2:10:50state you may continue
2:10:54they please the court yes sir i just
2:10:56want to talk about a couple more
2:10:58uh kimberly bowling i think she dated
2:11:00you for about six weeks in 2013.
2:11:03no sir i'm not familiar with that person
2:11:06neither on belford road nothing
2:11:07no sir i'm not familiar with that person
2:11:09how about her own daughter ashley
2:11:10fleming
2:11:11i'm not familiar with that person your
2:11:13honor and how about
2:11:15jessica summerlin no sir i'm not
2:11:17familiar with that person
2:11:28i want to talk for a second
2:11:33about um
2:11:38the uh police officer case all right i
2:11:40think you were clear on direct but i
2:11:42want to make it very clear
2:11:43yes sir that that you pled
2:11:47because the state wanted to get forward
2:11:49on this case correct
2:11:51that's why the negotiation happened well
2:11:53the best of my recollection
2:11:55leo hogg was prosecuting the case and
2:11:57you were just yesterday
2:11:59yes sir that's exactly what you did
2:12:02and you pled to it was it was well over
2:12:05two years of time
2:12:06served right you probably know the
2:12:07number of days i don't remember the days
2:12:09but
2:12:09i would assume that you're correct
2:12:11because
2:12:12it was at least at least a year a year
2:12:14and a half yeah you played gilly
2:12:16guilty to the felony battery of a law
2:12:18enforcement officer i believe that was
2:12:20the final charge it was reduced down in
2:12:21on the agreement that it would just uh
2:12:23go away if you plead to it and it
2:12:25wouldn't be used in this case
2:12:26but i see now that it is i don't want to
2:12:29debate you about that yeah
2:12:30you're the one that brought it all up
2:12:32sir i did okay
2:12:34so um
2:12:44when you were discussing with um
2:12:48your defense attorney the idea of sammy
2:12:50evans intimidating you
2:12:52i i missed i missed the last part i was
2:12:54just jimmy evans intimidating you
2:12:56remember
2:12:56yes sir okay you would agree that sammy
2:12:59evans
2:13:00um is a big fella he's tall he's much
2:13:04taller than you right
2:13:06he's a little bigger than me yes sir he
2:13:08would be good a good person to know in
2:13:10jail to protect you
2:13:11correct well
2:13:14i don't think that would be true he
2:13:17wouldn't protect you
2:13:18no sir you weren't friends with him
2:13:22i was an associate with him in regards
2:13:25to
2:13:25uh trading legal advice
2:13:29until i became associated with him with
2:13:31the fabrication of that
2:13:32confession and then it manifested into
2:13:36him pursuing his own agenda and getting
2:13:39that wire
2:13:40and which manifested into me being in a
2:13:43cell and being coerced into that
2:13:45confession with a lot of complicating
2:13:48mitigating factors of depression and
2:13:49despair
2:13:50and so it gets real complicated but i
2:13:52wouldn't say that i was a friend of
2:13:53stephanie evans
2:13:54absolutely not you just played chess
2:13:56with him
2:13:58actually i didn't do that much either he
2:14:01took me out to that chess table
2:14:02as an extension of that interrogation
2:14:06you used a phrase mr tillis that when
2:14:09sammy was trying to get you to talk
2:14:12you told him no he said that no means no
2:14:14right
2:14:15well when he took me into the cell and
2:14:17he showed me that pre-wrote note
2:14:19and i took the pad and he found the
2:14:21pencil and he gave it to me
2:14:22i wrote on there i told you no i gave
2:14:24the pad back to him i had told him
2:14:26previously that i wanted to to uh
2:14:30recant my decision about the police
2:14:33because
2:14:34i feared that the police would never
2:14:36give him a recording device and let him
2:14:37loose inside that jail like that
2:14:39that was that kind of shocked me so mr
2:14:41tillis my question
2:14:42is in your mind when you say no that
2:14:45means no right
2:14:47well it depends okay depends
2:14:50you have a loose meaning of the word no
2:14:52well as you as my
2:14:54attorney can can testify to
2:14:58one inside that jail is an emotional
2:15:00roller coaster up and down
2:15:02one minute you might say no because the
2:15:03circumstances weren't no
2:15:05but you might in another situation for
2:15:08the same response
2:15:09want to do a yes it's it's an emotional
2:15:12rollercoaster ride and you put despair
2:15:14depression
2:15:15circumstances a no may turn into a yes
2:15:18or a yes may turn into a no
2:15:20and one thing i do i mean
2:15:23i i concede that sometimes they knows
2:15:26turn into yeses and yes it's turned into
2:15:28no's
2:15:29i i you know man i'm only human
2:15:34yeah um
2:15:37i want to understand your motive because
2:15:38you've testified
2:15:41that at one time you
2:15:44want you were so despondent
2:15:47that your plan
2:15:50was to commit suicide
2:15:54by confessing to a murder
2:15:58correct it's called suicide by state
2:16:01suicide well
2:16:02suicide by cop i've heard of where a
2:16:05person would attack a police officer
2:16:08and and kind of force that police
2:16:09officer to kill them
2:16:11it's certainly a a uh a branch off of
2:16:14suicide by state okay but your suicide
2:16:16by stan
2:16:17mr tillis you you've told this jury
2:16:20you're a pretty smart guy when it comes
2:16:21to the law right
2:16:23and some occasions it depends on the
2:16:25subject but sometimes yes
2:16:27so your plan when your home is about to
2:16:31be demolished
2:16:33or at least can be demolished right yes
2:16:35sir
2:16:37and you just have found out about that
2:16:40that your plan is i'm going to tell the
2:16:43world
2:16:44about the dismembered body in my yard
2:16:49so multiple years from now
2:16:53i might face the death penalty
2:16:56that was your plan well before i
2:17:00no yes no no it's actually a no because
2:17:04what i did was first i looked into the
2:17:06longest time on death row was 30 years
2:17:09the shortest time was 4.1 years you
2:17:11could effectively wave all appeals
2:17:13and be dead in about three and a half
2:17:16so when you say multiple years yes i can
2:17:19see to a murder i didn't commit i get
2:17:21the death penalty of suicide by state i
2:17:22go to a one-man cell where i have a tv
2:17:25and then i would engage in meditation
2:17:26and prepare myself for death
2:17:28that's exactly what i was going to do
2:17:29and i was going to take those three
2:17:31years to do that
2:17:32okay but there would certainly be many
2:17:34other ways you could kill yourself right
2:17:36well i can't argue with that
2:17:39and you those things would be available
2:17:41to you in jail right
2:17:43well i might argue that well you already
2:17:46testified that you went through this
2:17:47elaborate plan to get all these drugs to
2:17:49try to kill yourself yeah and it didn't
2:17:50work
2:17:51well you could have taken 2 000
2:17:52milligrams right well
2:17:54i guess i should have gave up 10 trays
2:17:56of food 20 trays i don't know but it
2:17:58didn't work
2:17:58but one thing about is one thing about
2:18:00an attempt to suicide like that
2:18:01you don't know if it's going to work and
2:18:03i don't know much about pills i've never
2:18:05really been a pill person
2:18:06mr tillis oh i don't know if any of
2:18:08these things are going to work
2:18:09but you're more confident that you're
2:18:12going to falsely confess to somebody in
2:18:14the yard
2:18:15and that maybe you're going to get the
2:18:17death penalty in the future
2:18:19if they find this body then you are of
2:18:22doing any other method well
2:18:24one thing about conceding to the murder
2:18:26that i didn't commit and fabricating
2:18:28that confession is that
2:18:29once the police got it in their rush to
2:18:31justice and handing the case to you
2:18:33i was assured a death sentence as my
2:18:36sitting here is evident
2:18:38right how many years after you were
2:18:41arrested
2:18:43i don't know i guess i've been in jail
2:18:46i'm only guessing probably 10 months
2:18:50maybe maybe inside of inside of a year
2:18:54i understand that but you were charged
2:18:55with the murder at the end of 2016. oh i
2:18:57thought you know what you're talking
2:18:58about when i was first arrested from
2:18:59when i was first arrested until this
2:19:01alleged confession was
2:19:02about 10 months or something like that
2:19:05i'd only been in jail about a year
2:19:07when the alleged this bogus confession
2:19:09come into existence mr tillis i'm
2:19:11getting
2:19:12you wanted the death penalty but one of
2:19:15the reasons
2:19:16why you were backing
2:19:20out of it was because you were scared
2:19:24you were going to get in trouble no
2:19:27yeah you said oh you said mr tillis
2:19:31i couldn't believe they i was worried
2:19:33they were going to send a monitor
2:19:35and then i was going to get in trouble
2:19:37when they got caught for this
2:19:38fabrication
2:19:39and then get in trouble and then get in
2:19:41trouble and i said that but what you're
2:19:42misinterpreting
2:19:43what is the trouble the trouble is when
2:19:46you care about trouble mr tillis you're
2:19:47looking at 30 years
2:19:49you're so despondent that you think
2:19:51you're never going to get out of jail
2:19:52true
2:19:54and that's the trouble i was speaking of
2:19:56that was a big sense you're saying that
2:19:58you know you're never going to get out
2:19:59of jail
2:19:59you're going to do 30 years true and
2:20:02then you decide to back out of the
2:20:04confession because you're worried you're
2:20:05getting in trouble
2:20:07may i explain any sense may i explain
2:20:09what trouble means you tell us
2:20:11how it those two things make sense
2:20:13because
2:20:14if i gave up the if i gave up that body
2:20:17and i fabricated this confession and it
2:20:20was proved to be false
2:20:21and they caught me in that the trouble
2:20:23was i would still have the 30.
2:20:26i wouldn't i wouldn't have gained
2:20:27anything there's no there's nothing
2:20:29there
2:20:31there's no incentive to fabricate the
2:20:33story
2:20:34if i'm only going to get the same thing
2:20:36i'm going to get for the aggravated
2:20:38assault
2:20:38the only incentive for fabricating the
2:20:40story was the death penalty that i knew
2:20:42the state would seek
2:20:44so if if i gave up that and i fabricated
2:20:48this confession
2:20:49and then and then you sought the death
2:20:51penalty then i'm receiving what i am
2:20:53my agenda but if i fabricated this
2:20:56confession and i got caught and then i
2:20:58would get in trouble for fabrication and
2:21:00i'd end up
2:21:01with a life sentence which i already had
2:21:03it didn't
2:21:04the it was it was between the mental
2:21:07despair and the depression
2:21:09i didn't see any reason in doing it i
2:21:11honestly didn't think they were going to
2:21:12give him wire and let him in there like
2:21:14that
2:21:14that shocked me is that it
2:21:17yes sir so
2:21:22you have testified that there was no way
2:21:24that you could know
2:21:26how joni gunter was killed right
2:21:30that's why you didn't provide that
2:21:32information well that was one
2:21:34that was only one hole in the story yes
2:21:36sir
2:21:37and a homicide detective if you which
2:21:41was my only question mr tell us okay yes
2:21:43you're right i didn't i didn't know
2:21:45i didn't know the cause of death and
2:21:46that was the problem now mr tillis
2:21:49in the first why do you remember
2:21:53you not mr evans
2:21:58you uttering the words to mr evans
2:22:01quote i didn't shoot them
2:22:06girls
2:22:09remember that i may have said i didn't
2:22:11shoot anybody yes sir
2:22:12i don't i'm not going to con contest
2:22:14here
2:22:15yeah so i'm not going to contest it okay
2:22:17i said that you said that
2:22:19yeah you said i didn't shoot them girls
2:22:22you slipped up mr tillis because if you
2:22:24didn't know how they were killed
2:22:26then why are you telling sammy evans
2:22:29that you didn't shoot them because you
2:22:30very they could have very well been shot
2:22:33and your entire scheme is up
2:22:39because i didn't know i also said i
2:22:42didn't stab
2:22:43him i also said i didn't stab him i also
2:22:46said i didn't hit him in a head with a
2:22:47hammer
2:22:48i believe those were other allegations
2:22:50he made too mr tillis there's two
2:22:51separate parts
2:22:53there's the part in the second wire he's
2:22:55saying
2:22:57because he says almost like you've
2:22:59already talked about it right he says
2:23:00we don't shoot him because it's too
2:23:02noisy you don't stab them to the studio
2:23:04i remember that that's what you're doing
2:23:06that's the part i remember that's the
2:23:07part i remember number one on the fifth
2:23:10on the 10th yeah okay you tell
2:23:14sammy i didn't shoot
2:23:17them girls okay you see mr tillis and
2:23:20you said that
2:23:22and your point if we're to believe your
2:23:23story
2:23:25joni gunter very well may have been shot
2:23:27in that chest by your brother right
2:23:30anything could have been possible i
2:23:32didn't i didn't know the
2:23:34method of of uh the method that
2:23:37caused her death but making that
2:23:40statement
2:23:42why on earth
2:23:46wouldn't you just lie about it if we're
2:23:49to believe you mr tell us
2:23:51why on earth would you sit on this wire
2:23:53and tell like you said
2:23:55you were talking about the psychologist
2:23:56and just kind of spews out
2:23:58why they just make up how you killed her
2:24:01what's the difference i don't i don't
2:24:04understand what you
2:24:05i'm you can ask me on that one mr
2:24:07miranda mr tillis you're making up this
2:24:09wild story to get the death penalty okay
2:24:12all things that aren't true correct most
2:24:14of most of yes
2:24:16all these things that in theory
2:24:19we could prove them to be false correct
2:24:25okay yet the only thing you don't lie
2:24:29about
2:24:30is the manner of death
2:24:34why not lie about that
2:24:38oh no i don't i kind of don't understand
2:24:41what you're saying
2:24:42are you are you trying your goal is to
2:24:43get the death penalty correct yes sir
2:24:45and everything you're saying in this
2:24:47three-hour wire you're saying you're
2:24:49making it up
2:24:50in order to get the death penalty yes
2:24:51sir that's my agenda
2:24:53but yeah that's your agenda yet you're
2:24:56you're
2:24:57withholding the one piece of information
2:25:00that we would need
2:25:01the method that that she met her death
2:25:03right why wouldn't you just make it up
2:25:05you made up everything else
2:25:08isn't it true mr tillis that you told
2:25:10sammy evans that you beat her with a
2:25:12hammer
2:25:12and that's why he knew to ask you about
2:25:14it he asked me did i stab her or did i
2:25:16cut her throat
2:25:17he was trying to get you to say it on
2:25:18the wire oh okay
2:25:20okay isn't it true you told sammy evans
2:25:23you beat her with a hammer
2:25:24absolutely not now
2:25:28your testimony is with regard to tabitha
2:25:31nicole hogg
2:25:33that everything that she says is
2:25:36essentially true
2:25:38except for the main incident in question
2:25:40correct
2:25:42well she definitely wasn't changing that
2:25:43tree in my backyard
2:25:46the tree didn't exist i understand that
2:25:48some people say tree and they really
2:25:49need a pole
2:25:50right well i don't know she was pretty
2:25:53specific in describing the tree
2:25:55during the hearing we had i believe the
2:25:57transcripts tell us when you're high on
2:25:59heroin can sometimes you confuse a pole
2:26:01with a tree
2:26:02and i believe you could also confuse all
2:26:04sorts of situations with other
2:26:05situations
2:26:06when you've been on a five-day binge of
2:26:07heroin that is an excellent point mr
2:26:10mizrahi mr tillis do you think you can
2:26:11confuse
2:26:13your semen being rubbed on her face
2:26:14after you've raped her you think she
2:26:16confused that
2:26:17well she's pretty confusing five days
2:26:20worth of heroin binge
2:26:22five days of not sleep you know sleep
2:26:24deprivation causes hallucination
2:26:27it is a medical fact okay well thank you
2:26:28mr tillis for your legal and medical
2:26:30opinions we appreciate that
2:26:32now mr tillis you uh your testimony is
2:26:35that
2:26:36that even with um your goodwill towards
2:26:40tabitha hogg in other words
2:26:42writing her letters you talk about how
2:26:43it's so lonely in jail
2:26:45and you want to be that that friendly
2:26:47voice for her
2:26:48that friendly person right and that you
2:26:51you she helps you get
2:26:52boxes of suit of fed and you give her a
2:26:55place to stay
2:26:56and all of those things correct my
2:26:58interest in her wasn't really being
2:27:00friendly so to speak but
2:27:02if you want to context it like that okay
2:27:05my point is she was telling the truth
2:27:07about that stuff
2:27:08um she was telling the truth about the
2:27:10jail about the sudafed yeah some
2:27:12some of the things she said were were
2:27:16factual so your direct testimony was
2:27:20that despite all of the great things
2:27:22you've done for her
2:27:25that tabitha nicole haw got mad at you
2:27:29because she showed up to your house
2:27:31unannounced when it was raining
2:27:33and you wouldn't give her a ride that's
2:27:35your testimony she retrieved her stuff
2:27:37and then she wanted the ride and i told
2:27:38her leave because i had something to do
2:27:39and it was raining she got mad
2:27:41she left i made her leave and she took
2:27:44it a little hard
2:27:45but and so that's the only thing you've
2:27:48ever done to her
2:27:49that would cause tabitha nicole hogg a
2:27:52heroin addict
2:27:53a prostitute to come in here and make up
2:27:57all the stuff that she made on
2:27:58right well you would have to understand
2:28:01a heroin user's
2:28:03mentality yes that is exactly what i'm
2:28:07saying
2:28:08so your idea of what she did is that
2:28:11this happened
2:28:13she doesn't report it for how many years
2:28:16so when did this happen 2013
2:28:20i don't know when she alleged i don't
2:28:21think she gave a date she said it was
2:28:23after her release from jail whenever the
2:28:25date she was released from jail was
2:28:26but you know the day that she showed up
2:28:29well i don't
2:28:30i don't remember the date of the year i
2:28:31don't even remember that when she got
2:28:32out of the jail i'll be honest with you
2:28:33mr raj well it's between 2012
2:28:36and like 2 000. but i did pick her up
2:28:38from the jail i do remember that event
2:28:40whatever date that was her plan is to
2:28:42never tell a soul
2:28:44about what happened to you okay
2:28:47and then wait until joni gunter's
2:28:51dismembered remains are found and a
2:28:53detective comes knocking on her door
2:28:55to suddenly spring her angry trap
2:28:59about how you would not give her a ride
2:29:01in the rain
2:29:02therefore you must have chained her to
2:29:03her bed and raped her
2:29:05you would have to take that with her mr
2:29:06rahee you're asking me to make
2:29:08assumptions for the way she thinks and
2:29:10feels
2:29:10and i don't think that i'm in a position
2:29:11to be doing that i know that
2:29:13five day binges of heroin that drug does
2:29:17pretty bad things to you and the sleep
2:29:19deprivation added to the heroin use
2:29:21it gets pretty complicated when you add
2:29:23that with depression
2:29:24i don't know what the girl thinks or how
2:29:26she feels i mean i know our experience
2:29:28when we were associated
2:29:31but if you want to continue to ask those
2:29:32questions you will probably be better
2:29:34off to direct him toward her
2:29:36why on earth mr tillis
2:29:39for a girl that you casually knew
2:29:44that you got you knew was mad at you
2:29:49after you wouldn't give her a ride would
2:29:52you have
2:29:53her name date of birth
2:29:57social security number written on papers
2:30:00in your home well
2:30:04the the social security number the time
2:30:07of
2:30:08because when i looked her up to get the
2:30:10information so that i could
2:30:11give her money and she had initially
2:30:13asked me to appear at her court date
2:30:15i don't remember how that came about but
2:30:17when she was sentenced in st john's
2:30:18county
2:30:19i was present i remember that but to
2:30:22look up the information on her she had
2:30:24gave me that information
2:30:25so that i could obtain information on
2:30:27her with on the computer
2:30:29the time frame between when she was
2:30:31released from jail
2:30:32i don't know that date to the time frame
2:30:35of my
2:30:36arrest i don't know that the papers
2:30:39laying there
2:30:39they were probably just in a bundle
2:30:42bundle of papers
2:30:43and they were just neglectedly forgotten
2:30:45i would assume
2:30:47i mean i don't i don't i don't recall
2:30:49the specifics of it mr mcmahon is their
2:30:51social security number for that kind of
2:30:52thing
2:30:53i don't i don't i don't recall be honest
2:30:55with you but that's how that information
2:30:57if if if i'm not mistaken it was written
2:30:59on some sort of
2:31:00jailed piece of paper or something but
2:31:03i'm i'm guessing
2:31:04but that information was related to me
2:31:07finding out information
2:31:08so i could be at the court hearing and
2:31:10and then she got sentenced and then she
2:31:12went to jail and
2:31:13he got a little i think she got 60 days
2:31:15i'm not even sure exactly but it wasn't
2:31:17long
2:31:18in jail but i mean i don't
2:31:21i don't know do y'all understand mr tell
2:31:24us
2:31:24states exhibit 100.
2:31:29yes sir yes sir i see that
2:31:33you have your social security number on
2:31:34your dl number well you've asked me that
2:31:37question three times and i've tried to
2:31:38answer it three times mr marahi i don't
2:31:40know
2:31:41i mean i was looking up information i'd
2:31:43went to the jail
2:31:44i'd visited i put money on her books i
2:31:45had been to a couple of hearings
2:31:47i i mean i don't know okay well
2:31:51mr tillis you would agree that
2:31:54besides your theory of
2:31:58suicide by state yes sir there is never
2:32:01a situation where it is in a person's
2:32:04interest to come in and confess to
2:32:08murder correct
2:32:10it must be a statement against your own
2:32:12interest correct
2:32:14absolutely not if i'm seeking suicide by
2:32:16state then it is my best interest to
2:32:17fabricate whatever is necessary
2:32:19information provided to the police
2:32:21and to seek my agenda by getting the
2:32:23suicide by state
2:32:24i said besides that unless you want to
2:32:26commit suicide except for that theory
2:32:29generally speaking confessing to murder
2:32:31is against your own interest correct
2:32:36well and i and i wouldn't say no and it
2:32:39wouldn't say yes
2:32:41okay i mean sometimes sometimes
2:32:44you might do something your conscience
2:32:46weighs on you
2:32:47you know okay and you go back and you
2:32:51see what you did and you try to rectify
2:32:53your conscience
2:32:54it's not about the other person it's
2:32:55about how you feel that's why i was
2:32:57telling you earlier
2:32:58this isn't about me right now trying to
2:33:00avoid the death penalty i actually
2:33:02expect these people to convict me of
2:33:03murder
2:33:03and you to give me that death penalty i
2:33:06could really care less
2:33:08okay very good um now you knew
2:33:11that um joni gunter
2:33:15had been murdered correct
2:33:19well she was deceased when i viewed her
2:33:21in the trunk of that car yes sir
2:33:22and she was all bloody right she had a
2:33:24large blood stain on her chest
2:33:27i actually thought that was the fatal
2:33:28wound when i first observed her
2:33:30i didn't find out later until i read the
2:33:32autopsy she had a broke nose
2:33:34then i realized she probably got the
2:33:36blood on her chest from the punch in the
2:33:37face
2:33:45but at that point mr tillis
2:33:48you haven't talked about what happened
2:33:51next
2:33:52next about what well
2:33:56what did you do with her body to get
2:34:00joni gunter out of that trunk how'd you
2:34:03get her out of the trunk
2:34:05well at this point in the interrogation
2:34:07i am going to claim the fifth amendment
2:34:09and i'm not going to make any more
2:34:10statements regarding that question
2:34:12as a means to protect myself from any
2:34:14future uh
2:34:17associations this trial will undoubtedly
2:34:21uh manifest into a second trial this
2:34:24isn't the first one
2:34:24there's been too many errors in this
2:34:26trial i will most not
2:34:28most definitely be brought back for a
2:34:29second one and in the second trial
2:34:31i don't want this testimony hindering me
2:34:33in the future
2:34:34so i'm not going to discuss what
2:34:36occurred after my brother arrived and we
2:34:38had that discussion at the trunk of that
2:34:40car
2:34:41i will concede to telling you mr zarahi
2:34:44that i knew miss gunter was buried in
2:34:46that backyard i knew the condition of
2:34:48the body
2:34:49and i was present i'll concede that to
2:34:52you here and now
2:34:53but you can continue to ask me questions
2:34:55and i will not answer them okay
2:34:58well let me ask you this you're in
2:34:59charge you understand with grossly
2:35:01abusing a dead human body right
2:35:03count four yes sir okay and you would
2:35:06agree
2:35:07that you knew the location of every body
2:35:09part correct
2:35:11i just told you that i was present
2:35:14i think i've answered your question
2:35:15before you asked it i was you know where
2:35:18her torso was
2:35:19i was present you knew where her head
2:35:22was
2:35:23i was present when the when miss gunter
2:35:25was buried
2:35:26i just told you that the question seemed
2:35:28irrelevant
2:35:29they're not relevant when you're charged
2:35:30with count four mr tell us well i just
2:35:32told you
2:35:33i was present when her remains were
2:35:35buried mr marahi i don't know how
2:35:37how much more specific i can get bear
2:35:39either
2:35:40now that is a different question and as
2:35:42i just said
2:35:43this trial was only the prelude to the
2:35:45second one and i'm not going to be
2:35:47answering those questions that will
2:35:48prejudice me in my next trial
2:35:51i know that sounds rather bad but from a
2:35:53legal position
2:35:55i don't mind sitting here in and
2:35:59giving up what i know but that
2:36:00particular amount of information i'm
2:36:02going to
2:36:02retain until i come back and if anybody
2:36:06wants to hear those
2:36:07answers i would suggest coming to the
2:36:09next trial
2:36:10and that's when i will be telling you
2:36:12that if you are the prosecutor in that
2:36:14case
2:36:17okay um
2:36:21what's it like to use a sawzall to cut a
2:36:23woman's head off
2:36:25i i have no uh no answer for that
2:36:27question either mr zumahi what's it like
2:36:32did the sawzall blade wear out when you
2:36:34were cutting her shoulders
2:36:36did you have to use multiple blades i
2:36:39believe i just told you that i wouldn't
2:36:41answer any questions regarding that
2:36:43that subject if your intention is to
2:36:46just continue to ask questions that you
2:36:48know i won't answer for the benefit of
2:36:49the jury hearing you
2:36:51then you simply recite all your
2:36:52questions and i'll sit here
2:36:54mute and then when you get finished we
2:36:56can move on to the next set of questions
2:36:57if you have any more
2:36:58mr tillis you want to tell the jury your
2:37:01story right
2:37:03yes sir i do you tell us that was your
2:37:05decision right it was my decision
2:37:07and i will tell you we involuntarily got
2:37:09on that witness stand didn't you
2:37:10yes sir and the judge made freely and
2:37:12voluntarily withholding evidence from
2:37:15this jury correct
2:37:17i am i am selecting when i will disclose
2:37:20information and when i will not
2:37:22that is what i'm doing and in the end
2:37:24perjury huh mr tell us
2:37:26i didn't say anything about perjury i
2:37:28said i am selecting when i will disclose
2:37:30information and when i will not
2:37:32i do not intend on holding that
2:37:34information from the jury at the proper
2:37:35time
2:37:36this is not the proper time for me to be
2:37:38disclosing that information
2:37:40no sir well you know i can't make you mr
2:37:43tillis
2:37:43i understand that that's why i suggested
2:37:46that you just
2:37:47state all your questions get them out
2:37:49i'll set mute and then we'll move on
2:37:54i understand the rule mr marahi
2:37:57the rule you just said you can't force
2:37:59me to answer the question
2:38:01well we could force you by
2:38:04contempt and things like that but mr
2:38:06tillerson's fixing to get the death
2:38:07penalty the contempt charge
2:38:09really doesn't concern me i'm not going
2:38:12to torture you to get the answer yeah
2:38:13okay all right so i mean i got it i look
2:38:16at this mr tillis
2:38:19hypothetically speaking of course
2:38:24how long does it take to chop up
2:38:27the human body and i will revert back to
2:38:30my
2:38:30previous statement that i am not in the
2:38:32position to be discussing any
2:38:34information
2:38:34regarding that subject okay mr tillis
2:38:38would you not agree to this
2:38:43it's difficult to do
2:38:46to dismember a human body forgetting
2:38:48whether you did it to joni gunter or not
2:38:49i understand your position
2:38:51i'm just saying generally speaking if
2:38:53your knowledge and experience
2:38:55of cutting metal and cutting wood and
2:38:57doing construction
2:38:59the dismembering a human being would
2:39:00take time and effort
2:39:02correct as i stated earlier mr marahi
2:39:05i prefer not to answer any questions
2:39:07regarding this subject
2:39:08you would agree it would take hours
2:39:10right i'm not agreeing to anything
2:39:13you would agree that in order to
2:39:15dismember a human body you would need
2:39:17privacy correct
2:39:19i'm not agreeing to that the kind of
2:39:21privacy is six
2:39:23garage has correct continue on
2:39:26the kind of privacy that a bunch of
2:39:29tarps hanging around your house provides
2:39:31correct
2:39:31you can continue on the kind of privacy
2:39:34that a booby-trapped
2:39:35fenced yard provides correct
2:39:38you can continue on
2:39:44you knew that joni gunter was dead
2:39:46correct
2:39:48yes sir my initial belief that she was
2:39:49deceased when she arrived at the
2:39:51residence yes sir
2:39:53and no matter how homeless or how lonely
2:39:56a person is
2:39:58there's probably somebody out there that
2:40:00would be looking for him right
2:40:02that's what i've been trying to tell you
2:40:04that's why i'm sitting here
2:40:06it's got nothing to do with me avoiding
2:40:07the death penalty and it's got nothing
2:40:09to do with the case
2:40:11that's why i'm sitting here but you did
2:40:14nothing absolutely nothing mr tillis
2:40:18to try to bring justice
2:40:22to the death of joni gunter i'm caught
2:40:25in between two traps
2:40:26one i got my brother standing there
2:40:28looking at me and i got that girl
2:40:30deceased in the trunk of the car
2:40:31my brothers confronted me many times
2:40:33with this same sort of situation help me
2:40:36and yes maybe that was the wrong
2:40:37decision all right
2:40:39but i did it and now i'm sitting here
2:40:41and i'm telling you i did it
2:40:43okay no you're not telling us you're
2:40:45dead yeah you're invoking your
2:40:47constitutional i'm trying to tell you as
2:40:48much as i can tell you at this point
2:40:50right against self-incrimination um
2:40:55do you feel responsible what happened to
2:40:56johnny gaunter
2:40:59no sir i do not feel responsible for
2:41:02death
2:41:10no sir not for not for the cause of her
2:41:12death no
2:41:20one last little point on mr tillis yes
2:41:23sir
2:41:24you have according to your own testimony
2:41:29even crying about it that you have
2:41:31endured so much
2:41:34in effort to protect your brother
2:41:37correct
2:41:39well i wouldn't say i've been doing a
2:41:43lot but
2:41:44but uh it's it's not just protecting him
2:41:48it's in a sense accepting responsibility
2:41:50for what i did
2:41:52if you and i go in the store to rob it
2:41:54and
2:41:55and you shoot the clerk and the clerk
2:41:57gets killed
2:41:58and you get away and i get caught i went
2:42:01into that store willingly with you to
2:42:03rob that store
2:42:04and i knew the potential of the clerk
2:42:06getting shot
2:42:07so i make an agreement with you
2:42:11we go in the store you shoot the clerk
2:42:12you get away i get caught
2:42:14does that mean that i immediately have
2:42:15to tell on you there's some sort of
2:42:18sense of loyalty to that
2:42:22now when you add into the factor that
2:42:24you're my brother and we've been through
2:42:26a lot the factor gets a little more
2:42:28stronger
2:42:30that's why i put his name in the
2:42:32recording i told you that
2:42:35so when they gave me that death penalty
2:42:36he'd know
2:42:38he knows okay so
2:42:41my point is is you've you've been doing
2:42:43a lot to protect them that's
2:42:44that's a yes well i'm wearing it right
2:42:47now okay i'm wearing it
2:42:49and you have testified under oath on
2:42:54direct examination
2:42:56that you did not ask any questions of
2:42:59your brother
2:43:01about what happened to that girl
2:43:02absolutely absolutely not
2:43:04in future conversations i never breached
2:43:06the subject never ever
2:43:08said a word it was agreed upon when he
2:43:10arrived in the garage that that subject
2:43:12would never be brought up
2:43:13and he's and it hasn't it was never
2:43:17i got you your brother shows up and he's
2:43:19got a dead body in his truck
2:43:22correct yes sir that's all you know
2:43:24that's all i know it's a white car with
2:43:26a georgia plate
2:43:27it didn't look like hers i initially
2:43:28thought it was i thought it was her car
2:43:30in the beginning but
2:43:31mr telus you just testified
2:43:35in court under oath that your brother
2:43:38committed
2:43:38murder no i did not because the body was
2:43:41in her in
2:43:42his trunk i never said my brother
2:43:44committed murder just like
2:43:46joni gunter's body was chopped up and
2:43:49dismembered in
2:43:50your backyard correct first i never said
2:43:53my brother committed murder i said
2:43:55joni gunner arrived at my residence in
2:43:57the trunk of my brother's car and she
2:43:58was deceased
2:43:59how she met her death i had no clue
2:44:02i never said he killed her to my
2:44:05knowledge maybe he didn't
2:44:06maybe something else happened i don't
2:44:08know who knows
2:44:10he did it because he brought her to your
2:44:11house i didn't it wasn't a conversation
2:44:14where i asked him where'd she come from
2:44:15how'd you do that what happened
2:44:17that's not the conversation that
2:44:18occurred mr broccoli tell us if your
2:44:20brother didn't do it you're saying he
2:44:21just found a woman on the street
2:44:23dead and brother to your house to
2:44:25dismember her you're asking me to make
2:44:26allegations and assumptions
2:44:29mr tillis the point being you believed
2:44:33your brother was responsible
2:44:34for joining gunter's death because he
2:44:37had her body
2:44:38correct he had her in the technological
2:44:40assumption
2:44:41that's a reasonable assumption that is
2:44:44why we're here today because
2:44:46you had joanie gunter's dismembered body
2:44:48in your backyard
2:44:50correct well i can't can't deny that
2:44:52it's not a logical inference to
2:44:54to arrive at that conclusion
2:44:57any other questions for the witness
2:45:00okay mr tell us you may resume your seat
2:45:02at the council table
2:45:04sir you may resume your seat at council
2:45:06table thank you sir
2:45:20mr fletcher
2:45:24members of the jury this will be a good
2:45:26time to take our
2:45:27evening recess remember during this
2:45:31break
2:45:32the overnight break as well as during
2:45:34all of our breaks
2:45:35do not discuss the case do not let
2:45:37anyone discuss it with you
2:45:38do not look up any media coverage of the
2:45:41case
2:45:42that's on the honor system so don't do
2:45:44that and don't visit any of the places
2:45:47described
2:45:48we will see you tomorrow morning
2:45:52at nine o'clock to resume the trial
2:45:57i'll see you tomorrow morning at nine
2:45:58o'clock then thank you

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This page contains the full transcript of UNCUT: Russell Tillis testifies in his murder trial by News4JAX The Local Station, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 26,393 words across 4,377 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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