Uncancelled: Bari Weiss on the dangers of self-censorship — Transcript

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1. 0:00and it's time for uncanceled where the
2. 0:02world's top commentators speak out on
3. 0:04controversial issues
4. 0:05without the fear of the cancer culture
5. 0:08sweeping the rest of the media
6. 0:09tonight i'm joined by renowned american
7. 0:11opinion writer and editor barry vice
8. 0:14barry became the most
9. 0:15talked about woman in international
10. 0:16journalism last year following
11. 0:18her exit from the new york times barry
12. 0:21had been
13. 0:22hired to bring in diversity of opinion
14. 0:24at the newspaper as an op-ed editor and
15. 0:26writer but decided to resign due to the
16. 0:29paper's hostility
17. 0:30to free speech and open inquiry in
18. 0:32particular she had faced criticism over
19. 0:34the publication of republican senator
20. 0:36tom cotton's op-ed which argued for
21. 0:39sending in military troops to u.s cities
22. 0:41to quash
23. 0:41unrest that had broken out in the
24. 0:43aftermath of the death of george floyd
25. 0:46following her resignation barry penned a
26. 0:48stirring open letter in which she
27. 0:51claimed that twitter
28. 0:52had become the ultimate editor of the
29. 0:54paper and she alleged that it had become
30. 0:57a kind of performance space where
31. 0:59stories were chosen to satisfy a narrow
32. 1:02left-wing audience she wrote i was
33. 1:04always taught that journalists were
34. 1:06charged with writing the first draft of
35. 1:08history
36. 1:09now history itself is one more thing
37. 1:12molded to fit the needs of a
38. 1:14predetermined narrative
39. 1:15my own forays into wrong think have made
40. 1:18me the subject of
41. 1:19constant bullying by colleagues who
42. 1:21disagree with my views
43. 1:23barry's resignation made front page news
44. 1:25and featured in the twitter feeds of
45. 1:27donald trump
46. 1:27and his son donald trump jr and it set
47. 1:30up
48. 1:31bom off under an already combustible row
49. 1:33over free speech that is currently
50. 1:35raging through institutions across the
51. 1:38globe
52. 1:39since her resignation barry has launched
53. 1:41her top-rated podcast honestly and has
54. 1:43been outspoken on the rise of the woke
55. 1:45mob and canceled culture
56. 1:47in a recent piece she warned that young
57. 1:49american writers are staying silent
58. 1:51for fear of being cancelled by a liberal
59. 1:54zealous cabal
60. 1:55barry joins me live now from los angeles
61. 1:59so
62. 1:59barry explain uh great to have you here
63. 2:03by the way
64. 2:03and and i think what you did last year
65. 2:06was so brave and prompted
66. 2:07such an important conversation but can
67. 2:10you explain
68. 2:11to uk viewers who aren't necessarily
69. 2:14aware
70. 2:15of the influence that the new york times
71. 2:17has in america just what that newspaper
72. 2:20means to america and what happened
73. 2:23before your very eyes when you were
74. 2:25there
75. 2:27well if catholics can think about the
76. 2:29importance of the vatican
77. 2:30and the pope uh to their religion that
78. 2:33is the role that the new york times
79. 2:34plays
80. 2:35in liberal elite america um
81. 2:38historically you know the new york times
82. 2:40it's the president in the states is
83. 2:42different than it is
84. 2:43in in britain right you pick up a
85. 2:45certain paper you know you're getting a
86. 2:46certain view
87. 2:47and maybe that's healthier but the way
88. 2:49that it's worked here and i think this
89. 2:51was a reflection of kind of
90. 2:53post-war consensus politics was that the
91. 2:56new york times was able to brand itself
92. 2:58for years as the paper of record
93. 3:02the concept right was that even though
94. 3:04we know that we're all subjective
95. 3:06we strive for objectivity we strive to
96. 3:09hold up a mirror to the country as it is
97. 3:12not just
98. 3:13you know the politics of a place like
99. 3:14the upper west side or berkeley
100. 3:16which is where a lot of new york times
101. 3:18readers live but hold up the mirror to
102. 3:20the society as it actually is
103. 3:22and what has happened and there's
104. 3:23economic and also political and
105. 3:25ideological reasons for this
106. 3:27is the abandonment of that mission an
107. 3:30abandonment that's happened
108. 3:31sort of slowly and then all at once and
109. 3:34i was really there
110. 3:35uh and i had a front row seat to the
111. 3:37collapse of the old model
112. 3:39and the replacement of that old model
113. 3:41the kind of old-school liberal ideal
114. 3:44with the new one um and in seeing that
115. 3:47it's really important for people to
116. 3:48understand that it's not just a story
117. 3:50about the new york times
118. 3:52it's a story about institutional capture
119. 3:55that's happening
120. 3:55all over this country it's happening in
121. 3:58hollywood it's happening in our
122. 3:59publishing houses
123. 4:00it's happening in our tech companies
124. 4:02increasingly it's happening in corporate
125. 4:03america
126. 4:04and it's absolutely happening in our
127. 4:06newspapers
128. 4:07um the reasons for that you know that's
129. 4:09a much larger conversation
130. 4:11well it is but it's very dangerous is it
131. 4:13not because if you
132. 4:14if you look at the most important story
133. 4:17over the past 18 months
134. 4:19unquestionably the origin of coronavirus
135. 4:23where did this thing come from how did
136. 4:25it spread across the globe
137. 4:27was it animal to animal transmission was
138. 4:30it the wet markets
139. 4:31or did it escape from the wuhan lab
140. 4:34either purposefully
141. 4:35or by accident and that journalism that
142. 4:38should have been
143. 4:40done by these big american institutions
144. 4:42last year
145. 4:43didn't happen because trump supported
146. 4:47this narrative
147. 4:48and then the social media companies that
148. 4:50you talk about the likes of facebook
149. 4:52branded any journalist who posted about
150. 4:55this
151. 4:56a conspiracy theorist exactly as
152. 4:58misinformation and it's just such an
153. 4:59example
154. 5:00i think of everything that you've just
155. 5:02spoken about
156. 5:05it abs i mean that's the most prominent
157. 5:07example but there are
158. 5:09so many other ones as well i mean
159. 5:11another really powerful example is
160. 5:13you know the narrative of what happened
161. 5:15in this country over the past summer
162. 5:17were the protesters overwhelmingly
163. 5:19peaceful or was there also
164. 5:21violence you wouldn't find many stories
165. 5:24about the sort of
166. 5:26dark underbelly of what was happening in
167. 5:28some american cities places like
168. 5:29portland and seattle where there were
169. 5:31autonomous zones basically run by you
170. 5:34know
171. 5:35kind of misfit militias um
172. 5:38and small businesses being harmed people
173. 5:40being scared people having to pay off
174. 5:42bribes
175. 5:42these are stories increasingly that you
176. 5:44were having to rely on random users on
177. 5:46twitter to surface
178. 5:47rather than the greatest newspaper in
179. 5:49the world the big picture is this
180. 5:51the old new york times model was all the
181. 5:54news that's fit to print
182. 5:55the new model is all the news that fits
183. 5:58the narrative
184. 5:59and by the narrative i mean whatever
185. 6:02the new tenants are and they increase
186. 6:04every single day
187. 6:05of the woke orthodoxy so any story that
188. 6:08is perceived as not
189. 6:10pushing that narrative is not pushing
190. 6:13progress
191. 6:14as not bending the arc of justice in the
192. 6:16right direction
193. 6:18as not being on the right side of
194. 6:19history it's seen as something like
195. 6:21heretical
196. 6:23and anyone that has the guts to pursue
197. 6:26those stories
198. 6:27well they learn to think better of it
199. 6:29because if those
200. 6:31topics themselves become third rails and
201. 6:33become untouchable
202. 6:34you know what's going to happen to you
203. 6:36when you touch them
204. 6:37and so the reason for like when i said
205. 6:40in my letter that
206. 6:41twitter is not on the masthead of the
207. 6:43new york times but twitter is its
208. 6:44ultimate editor
209. 6:46what i meant by that is that if you're a
210. 6:48young journalist
211. 6:49okay i mean this goes this goes for
212. 6:51every rank at the paper but especially
213. 6:53if you're a young writer
214. 6:54and you're at the very beginning of your
215. 6:56career and all you want to do is rise
216. 6:58the ranks right you want to work
217. 7:00yourself
218. 7:00up for being you know whatever you guys
219. 7:01call it there but we call it a copy
220. 7:03editor you know to
221. 7:04to a reporter to maybe being an editor
222. 7:06on the masthead one day
223. 7:07well the way that you do that you
224. 7:09certainly don't want to like cause a
225. 7:11firestorm on the internet
226. 7:13you certainly don't want to be trending
227. 7:14as a bigot or as
228. 7:16you know someone who's peddling
229. 7:18misinformation
230. 7:19you don't want to put your hand directly
231. 7:21on that third rail
232. 7:22and so as a result and this is the
233. 7:24really insidious part there is a kind of
234. 7:26regime of self-censorship
235. 7:28that takes hold because you think to
236. 7:31yourself and i'll speak
237. 7:32personally as a as a long-time you know
238. 7:34columnist and editor you think
239. 7:36do i really want to die on that hill i
240. 7:39see what's happened to this person and
241. 7:40that person and the other person
242. 7:42when they've touched those topics why
243. 7:44don't i just do the thing that i know
244. 7:45will pleasure my readers and give them
245. 7:47the five
246. 7:48thousand five thousandth op-ed about how
247. 7:51donald trump is a moral monster
248. 7:53that's the easier thing to do now this
249. 7:55is couple dan and this is really
250. 7:56important with a
251. 7:58major economic transformation in terms
252. 8:01of
253. 8:01who pays the bills at newspapers and
254. 8:03television stations
255. 8:04in the states it used to be that a
256. 8:07company like the new york times
257. 8:08had to worry about enraging their
258. 8:10advertisers right
259. 8:12that has completely shifted after the
260. 8:14advent of this machine that we're
261. 8:15talking through the you know miraculous
262. 8:17internet
263. 8:18well it wasn't that miraculous for the
264. 8:20news industry and that's a
265. 8:22transformation we're only at the very
266. 8:23beginning of
267. 8:24right who does the new york times have
268. 8:26to worry about enraging now
269. 8:28who does it have to worry about engaging
270. 8:30now pleasing now
271. 8:31satisfying now it's readers it's
272. 8:34subscribers
273. 8:35and 95 of new york times subscribers
274. 8:38identify as liberals and democrats so
275. 8:40they want their hit of political heroin
276. 8:43in the exact same way that the person
277. 8:44who tunes into fox news
278. 8:46to watch laura ingram and sean hannity
279. 8:48every night wants that thing
280. 8:50so we are living in a world i don't need
281. 8:52to tell you this and i think part of the
282. 8:54impetus for gb news is to fight this in
283. 8:57which
284. 8:59the my country and i think this goes for
285. 9:02lots of different places is increasingly
286. 9:04living in like
287. 9:05two epistemological realities
288. 9:09we are living in two bubbles that are so
289. 9:12polarized
290. 9:12and if you watch msnbc all night you
291. 9:15believe that you know you believe in
292. 9:16donald trump's p-tape and russia gate
293. 9:19and if you watch fox news every night
294. 9:21you believe in a whole nother set of
295. 9:22things
296. 9:23this is good business for these
297. 9:25companies but it's extremely unhealthy
298. 9:28for a liberal democracy
299. 9:29where we need to at least agree on the
300. 9:31basic facts
301. 9:33and if we're unable to even moot
302. 9:36the different let's say in the lab
303. 9:38league theory the different
304. 9:39possibilities of what it would be
305. 9:41without being smeared as peddlers of
306. 9:44diff disinformation
307. 9:45well then we're in a really dangerous
308. 9:47place completely and that is absolutely
309. 9:49one of the points of gb news and it's
310. 9:50certainly one of the reasons that i came
311. 9:52here because
312. 9:53we're having these huge issues of our
313. 9:55time the lab leak
314. 9:57lockdowns do they work and major media
315. 10:00institutions
316. 10:01in the uk like the bbc like itv
317. 10:04like sky news not prepared to even have
318. 10:07the debate and all i ask that we do on
319. 10:11this channel
320. 10:12is have the debate hear both points of
321. 10:14view but as you say
322. 10:16over this crisis people have been
323. 10:18accused of peddling misinformation
324. 10:20simply for having a different scientific
325. 10:24view
326. 10:24even on the efficacy of lockdown so i i
327. 10:27think you're completely right
328. 10:28but look i do just quickly want to talk
329. 10:30to you before i bring in our panel about
330. 10:32your most recent column about the hong
331. 10:34kong newspaper apple daily because
332. 10:37of course we talk a lot about woke
333. 10:39culture and cancer culture at home
334. 10:42but some of the threats to democracy
335. 10:44happening around the world
336. 10:46are on a whole other scale and of course
337. 10:49this is about
338. 10:50a hong kong democratic newspaper losing
339. 10:54its voice for good as a result of the
340. 10:55chinese communist government
341. 10:57and again barry the the world and and
342. 10:59most of the media seems to be turning a
343. 11:01blind eye to what's going on
344. 11:04thank you so much for letting me talk
345. 11:06about it i think it's the most important
346. 11:07story that's happened over the past week
347. 11:09as much as i write about
348. 11:10you know the strange marriage between
349. 11:12let's say corporate america
350. 11:14and wolf politics as much as i care
351. 11:15about cancel culture
352. 11:17i'm interviewing um winston marshall
353. 11:19from mumford and sons tomorrow on my
354. 11:20podcast i care a lot about those issues
355. 11:23i think that the gravest threat to human
356. 11:25freedom in the world is the chinese
357. 11:27communist
358. 11:28party and the fact of the matter is that
359. 11:30the chinese communist party
360. 11:32has basically put a bag over the head
361. 11:35of hong kong's democracy and
362. 11:38thrown it in the trunk of a car and
363. 11:40driven off in broad daylight in full
364. 11:42view of the world
365. 11:44the closure of apple daily which was the
366. 11:46most important pro-democracy
367. 11:48anti-communist swashbuckling tabloid in
368. 11:51hong kong
369. 11:52it was a thorn in the side of beijing
370. 11:54for 26 years
371. 11:55after jailing its founder jimmy eli
372. 11:57after ransacking its offices
373. 11:59after raiding its offices with hundreds
374. 12:01of police officers and arresting
375. 12:03the top five executives and editors of
376. 12:05the paper
377. 12:06last thursday a few days ago the paper
378. 12:09went to print for the last time
379. 12:11the reason i think this is so important
380. 12:14and it directly connects to the question
381. 12:16of covet
382. 12:17is that what happens in beijing does not
383. 12:20stay in beijing
384. 12:22the story of hong kong transforming
385. 12:25from a free society into a fear society
386. 12:28over the past
387. 12:28two years is a warning sign to all of us
388. 12:31and if we want
389. 12:32evidence of what the chinese communist
390. 12:35party decides
391. 12:36not staying there we need to look no
392. 12:38further than the pandemic that we've all
393. 12:40just lived through
394. 12:41it was china that obscured the nature of
395. 12:44this virus
396. 12:44it was china that disappeared the
397. 12:47scientists and doctors and
398. 12:48whistleblowers
399. 12:49and it was china that that had a huge
400. 12:52responsibility
401. 12:53for this chernobyl on a global scale and
402. 12:56so the reason that i think
403. 12:58you know with all of the egregious
404. 12:59stories of the atrocities that come out
405. 13:01of china
406. 13:02between the uyghur genocide and the
407. 13:04surveillance state and we can go on and
408. 13:06on and on
409. 13:07the reason the closure of this little
410. 13:08newspaper should matter to every single
411. 13:11person in the west
412. 13:12is that it reveals to us the true nature
413. 13:14if we still have any doubt
414. 13:16about the chinese communist party and it
415. 13:18should send a clear signal
416. 13:21to business people to other governments
417. 13:22to everyone
418. 13:24that they have interest expansionist
419. 13:26interests
420. 13:27well beyond mainland china and so i
421. 13:30would love for everyone to go and read
422. 13:31that column
423. 13:32it's called what happens when a free
424. 13:34society becomes a police state and
425. 13:36there's an interview
426. 13:37with an unbelievably brave and intrepid
427. 13:41young reporter who bears witness in the
428. 13:44column and in the podcast
429. 13:46to the last breaths of fre of press
430. 13:48freedom
431. 13:49in hong kong and i think that she
432. 13:51articulates and the
433. 13:53pro-democracy movement since the
434. 13:54umbrella revolution in
435. 13:562014 what that entire movement has
436. 13:59articulated
437. 14:00i think to many people in the west who
438. 14:02take our freedoms for granted
439. 14:04is how unbelievably precarious they are
440. 14:06and how precious they are and how much
441. 14:08we need to defend them
442. 14:10no you are so right i mean i say about
443. 14:13uh
444. 14:13the china cover-up of coronavirus and
445. 14:16i've been saying this for the past 15
446. 14:17months it actually makes chernobyl look
447. 14:19like a
448. 14:20petty crime we need to talk
449. 14:23about china you're completely right look
450. 14:25i've got my panel with
451. 14:26oliver in scotland carol malone and
452. 14:29benjamin
453. 14:30butterworth uh neil do you have a
454. 14:32question for barry
455. 14:35oh yeah i'm just i was just so
456. 14:37fascinated listening to barry there
457. 14:38it's it's it's um it's uh it's
458. 14:41unfamiliar i think to hear that topic
459. 14:43being uh
460. 14:44explained in that way by someone so
461. 14:47uh well-informed articulate and eloquent
462. 14:50so it was a treat just to listen
463. 14:51um barry but uh do you think that
464. 14:55am i right and reading into what you're
465. 14:58saying that
466. 14:59had it not been for the way in which uh
467. 15:01the
468. 15:02chinese communist party has been seen to
469. 15:04have taken control
470. 15:06of its population that we would not hear
471. 15:09in
472. 15:09europe and in britain our governments
473. 15:13would not have been as emboldened as
474. 15:14they were
475. 15:15to erode our civil liberties and to
476. 15:18impose
477. 15:19lockdowns as as draconian as they have
478. 15:22been
479. 15:23and that and you know as you say what
480. 15:25happens in mainland china will not stay
481. 15:27on mainland
482. 15:28china and that you don't want other
483. 15:30governments
484. 15:32with proto-totalitarian ambitions
485. 15:35to see the efficacy of what the ccp has
486. 15:37been doing in china because
487. 15:39if it seemed to be effective then you
488. 15:41know they may be emboldened
489. 15:43to you know to adopt some of the same
490. 15:46tactics
491. 15:46here he's breaking up a little but i got
492. 15:50the gist of it
493. 15:51um i appreciate this is amazing that
494. 15:54we're all able to talk from all these
495. 15:55different places look i think
496. 15:57one of the the warnings that we should
497. 16:00see
498. 16:01is that the internet
499. 16:04and social media and surveillance and
500. 16:06big data
501. 16:07and google and facebook and twitter
502. 16:09these are neutral tools
503. 16:11they can be used for good like
504. 16:14connecting me to dissidents in hong kong
505. 16:16and they can be used as the ccp shows
506. 16:19abundantly every single day in china for
507. 16:22ill and for surveilling its citizens and
508. 16:25i think that that should be a warning to
509. 16:28everyone in the west
510. 16:30one of the things though that i'm really
511. 16:31fascinated by
512. 16:33is the hypocrisy of so many companies
513. 16:37in the west that pride themselves on
514. 16:40watchwords like social justice
515. 16:42and diversity and inclusion and
516. 16:44anti-racism
517. 16:45that go absolutely mum on the subject of
518. 16:48china
519. 16:49you saw that with john cena the actor
520. 16:52who
521. 16:52apologized in mandarin for calling
522. 16:54taiwan a country
523. 16:56you saw that when lebron james who's one
524. 16:58of you know the most outspoken
525. 17:00um basketball players huge unbelievable
526. 17:03star
527. 17:04you know apologize after daryl mori one
528. 17:07of the gm's of an important nba
529. 17:09team here stood with the people of hong
530. 17:11kong and just last week
531. 17:13as apple daily was being raided and shut
532. 17:16down the ceo of nike
533. 17:18a company that uses forced labor of
534. 17:21uyghurs
535. 17:22to manufacture its sneakers talked about
536. 17:25how
537. 17:25nike is a brand of china and for china
538. 17:29and i really don't think we talk about
539. 17:30that enough the utter moral hypocrisy
540. 17:34of these companies that put up their
541. 17:36pride flags for
542. 17:37pride month and talk about you know
543. 17:39diversity and
544. 17:40and all of the rest and have nothing to
545. 17:42say
546. 17:43about a country that is carrying out a
547. 17:45modern-day genocide
548. 17:47how is that not a scandal how are the
549. 17:49people who pride themselves on those
550. 17:51virtues
551. 17:52not being you know pushed into a corner
552. 17:55and be forced to answer on that question
553. 17:57benjamin barry you talked about
554. 18:00liberal-minded people having specific
555. 18:02expectations of what can or cannot be
556. 18:04published
557. 18:05do you think that it's just that our
558. 18:07moral expectations and norms
559. 18:09are changing faster than they used to so
560. 18:11for example
561. 18:12i'm sure in america as in britain 30 40
562. 18:15years ago
563. 18:16uh openly homophobic racist views might
564. 18:19have been considered saturday night
565. 18:21entertainment
566. 18:21in a way that no one would entertain now
567. 18:25is it just that norms have changed and
568. 18:27the other question i wanted to ask you
569. 18:28is of course it's not unique to liberals
570. 18:30you mentioned fox news it exists on the
571. 18:32right
572. 18:33how do we get out of this rut that you
573. 18:35refer to
574. 18:37great questions i'll start with the
575. 18:38first one which is deeply personal for
576. 18:40me it's pride month my wife is upstairs
577. 18:43i'm married to a woman i benefit from
578. 18:45the unbelievable progress
579. 18:47that has happened on so many issues you
580. 18:49know i'm also jewish
581. 18:51not least on the issue of gay rights so
582. 18:54i'm really sensitive to that criticism
583. 18:56and and
584. 18:57always sort of trying to ask myself am i
585. 19:00just being an old fogey
586. 19:02am i just like perpetrating exactly the
587. 19:06thing you referred am i just not like
588. 19:08going along with the march of progress
589. 19:10you know am i not seeing the right way
590. 19:13that's a question i ask myself
591. 19:15constantly and i think my answer is this
592. 19:17you're right benjamin that we are living
593. 19:18through a kind of remoralization effort
594. 19:21the question though is that is it just
595. 19:25moving us faster along to a good place
596. 19:28or is what this ideology trying to do
597. 19:32to make commonsensical views
598. 19:35uh verboten i don't think that it's
599. 19:39progress
600. 19:40to not be able to say out loud that
601. 19:43there are biological differences between
602. 19:45men and women
603. 19:46to say nothing about people with people
604. 19:49that are trans getting full rights being
605. 19:51called by their proper
606. 19:52pronouns i believe all of those things i
607. 19:54also believe that there are biological
608. 19:56differences between boys and girls
609. 19:58that is a subject that you can get
610. 20:00cancelled for right now
611. 20:02is that progress is it progress and this
612. 20:05is going on in tons of american schools
613. 20:07to segregate children in the name of
614. 20:10social justice
615. 20:12according to their race in the san diego
616. 20:15school system you know an hour from
617. 20:16where i am right now
618. 20:18there was a session held with all of the
619. 20:20teachers
620. 20:21that said that white teachers are spirit
621. 20:24murdering black children
622. 20:25at another school in california in
623. 20:27cupertino third graders were asked to
624. 20:30rank themselves according to power and
625. 20:32privilege
626. 20:32now this is all being done in the name
627. 20:34of social justice and progress
628. 20:36and civil rights but it seems to me that
629. 20:39it's
630. 20:40more like dragging us into the past any
631. 20:43ideology that suggests that some people
632. 20:46are as this one does that some people
633. 20:48are born
634. 20:49into inherent guilt and some people are
635. 20:52born into inherent innocence
636. 20:54that we judge people by the sins of
637. 20:56their parents
638. 20:57rather than their deeds and their
639. 20:58character that we
640. 21:00you know don't give people a second
641. 21:03chance that have made a mistake
642. 21:05that we you know put people into kind of
643. 21:08a manichaean category that they're
644. 21:10either good or bad victim or victimizer
645. 21:13i don't care what it calls itself that
646. 21:16is illiberal that goes against the very
647. 21:19spirit
648. 21:20of the tool that it goes against the but
649. 21:23it denigrates the tools that have
650. 21:24allowed us to have this progress in the
651. 21:26first place because
652. 21:27what this ideology says is that the
653. 21:29tools themselves because they were
654. 21:31created by dead white men
655. 21:32who yes were moral hypocrites in all
656. 21:34kinds of ways who yes
657. 21:36judging by the moral standards of today
658. 21:38were monsters in all kinds of ways
659. 21:40that those tools need to be thrown away
660. 21:42that the enlightenment needs to be
661. 21:43thrown away
662. 21:44that the constitution needs to be thrown
663. 21:46away that the bill of rights needs to be
664. 21:47thrown away
665. 21:48and i call bs on that i think that those
666. 21:51tools as martin luther king
667. 21:53said are the promissory note that have
668. 21:55allowed the expansion of human freedom
669. 21:58in my country and that's what i'm
670. 22:00fighting against i'm a lifelong liberal
671. 22:02getting to the fox news question
672. 22:04um and so no one you know if you go
673. 22:06through the list of
674. 22:07policies like i definitely fall i think
675. 22:10still although the world is changing
676. 22:12on the center left um but what this
677. 22:14ideology is about
678. 22:16is undermining liberalism it's
679. 22:18undermining the fundamentals
680. 22:20that allow a conservative and a liberal
681. 22:22to disagree in the first place
682. 22:24i'll answer your last question super
683. 22:26quickly how do we get out of it
684. 22:28i think we get out of it by starting new
685. 22:30things
686. 22:31um the reason that i self-deported from
687. 22:34the new york times
688. 22:35you know seems like a crazy thing to do
689. 22:37it's it's
690. 22:38love it or hate it it's still the most
691. 22:40important newspaper in the world
692. 22:41the reason that i did that though is i
693. 22:43didn't want to be part of an echo
694. 22:45chamber
695. 22:45i didn't want to be part of the thing
696. 22:48that i was so uncomfortable with which
697. 22:49is
698. 22:50like radicalizing people making people
699. 22:52hate each other more
700. 22:54i want to make people hate each other
701. 22:56less i want to make people have more
702. 22:57empathy for one another to be able to
703. 22:59listen to one another
704. 23:00so i feel extremely optimistic do i feel
705. 23:03optimistic about the
706. 23:05old establishment institutions no
707. 23:08but do i feel optimistic about podcasts
708. 23:10and newsletters and all of the things
709. 23:12that are coming up now in the world the
710. 23:14new things
711. 23:15i really really do well that is a
712. 23:18brilliant
713. 23:18note to end it on your podcast honestly
714. 23:21i can't wait to hear your conversation
715. 23:23with winston martial and
716. 23:24we've been speaking about on the show
717. 23:25and of course gb news one of those new
718. 23:27entrants into the media market too barry
719. 23:31weiss