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Ukraine Responsible for Most Donbass Civilian Casualties — OSCE Reports Falsified, Ex-Monitor Claims — Transcript

by The Peacemonger · 7,576 words · 1,318 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00A former OSCE monitor in the Donbas from
0:022015 to 2021 alleges that the OSCE
0:05regularly tampered with monitoring
0:07reports to make it appear that the
0:09Ukrainian side wasn't as responsible for
0:12civilian casualties as it was. He claims
0:14that three out of the four casualties
0:16caused in the Donbas by both sides
0:18during that period were caused by
0:20Ukraine. He also claims that the
0:23Ukrainian intelligence service actively
0:26infiltrated the OSCE mission that
0:29representatives of the National
0:30Endowment for Democracy were deeply
0:32embedded within the OSCE monitoring
0:35mission and that the OSCE itself was
0:37under huge pressure from the Ukrainian
0:39government itself to make it appear that
0:43the separatist side was more responsible
0:45for violence and civilian casualties
0:48than the Ukrainian side to completely
0:50warp the picture that was portrayed to
0:53people in the mainstream media.
0:55His name is Ben Wa Paray. He joins me
0:59today for this video. This is his
1:02account. He's written a book about it. I
1:04leave it to you to make up your mind,
1:07but for now, let's join him in this
1:09video. Thank you. Hello, ladies and
1:11gentlemen. My name is Ian Parratt and
1:12I'm the Peacemonger. Today, I'm glad to
1:14welcome Ben Wa Paray. He has a long
1:16experience uh working election
1:19monitoring including with the OSCE in
1:21Ukraine, but also in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1:23He's worked with the French Ministry of
1:24Defense.
1:25As well, Ben Wa, uh pleased to welcome
1:28you to the show.
1:31>> Thank you. Nice to meet you. Nice to
1:33meet you, audience.
1:34>> Nice to meet you,
1:36too. So, take take us back to when you
1:38were with the OSCE in uh the Donbas.
1:41When that was, I mean, I've read
1:44I know that you used to produce daily
1:45reports and I've read most of them. It's
1:47It's helpful reference for anybody who
1:49wants to understand what's happening,
1:50but when were you there?
1:53>> I was in Ukraine with the OSCE mission
1:55between 2015 and 2022.
1:59Uh until the last day.
2:01And our contract were actually
2:04terminated by the end of May 2022.
2:08So for a while we were still like
2:09following up what was going on in
2:11Ukraine.
2:12Like
2:14for a couple of months after the
2:16basically land invasion by by Russia.
2:20>> So what was your understanding of
2:24the landscape the UN sent you? When in
2:272015 did you arrive? Was that before
2:29Minsk after the Minsk agreement?
2:31>> It was in July but actually
2:34interestingly I had been interviewed at
2:37the end of January just before the
2:40signing of Minsk II agreement. It was
2:42like
2:43two weeks before.
2:45And
2:46from the answers I expected to basically
2:51land into a war zone.
2:53I was asked three times on the phone
2:56whether I was ready to go to a war zone.
2:59Because they were OSCE was wary of the
3:02situation at that time and they really
3:04wanted to make sure. But the personnel
3:07that they would send there would be uh
3:10not be surprised about the situation.
3:12But having served in Afghanistan four
3:15times with the military before
3:17I was not afraid of being deployed into
3:19a war zone.
3:21But because of some
3:23administrative problems I ended up being
3:26deployed much later than that in July
3:29when it much it was much quieter.
3:32Because of Minsk II agreement. But yet
3:36there were still many steps from the
3:38Minsk II agreement that were not yet
3:40implemented. Notably the methodology to
3:44observe the withdrawal of heavy weapons
3:47for instance.
3:48The methodology was still to be defined
3:52and so actually
3:54when I was based in Kramatorsk
3:56the for our base in Kramatorsk it was a
3:58British guy who was in charge of
4:01um,
4:02coming up with a plan
4:04uh, and a methodology to observe the
4:07various, uh, what heavy weapon storage
4:09sites that were in our AOR. And in
4:11Kramatorsk, we had the highest number,
4:1343
4:14from recollection. And 43 weapon storage
4:17sites only on the Ukrainian side.
4:20Um, but that was like the military side
4:24of things, uh, and uh
4:27directly linked to Minsk. But
4:30as far as I was concerned, pretty
4:32quickly actually, uh,
4:34after just a couple of weeks, I ended up
4:36being assigned to a special unit within
4:38the OSCE mission.
4:41It was the It was called the human
4:43dimension.
4:44You must have heard about that if you
4:46are familiar with
4:47uh, OSCE reports. So
4:50you know, to sum up what the human
4:53dimension is about, you could say it's
4:55about
4:57everything that is not purely military.
5:00So that would mean, uh,
5:02on top of the list as far as we were
5:04concerned, human rights violations.
5:06Um, the verification of, uh
5:10uh,
5:11civilian casualties.
5:12Uh, but this was
5:14we started to do that systematically
5:16only from 2016.
5:18Prior to that, there was no methodology
5:20in place for us to check that. Um, so it
5:23took a while also
5:24yet again to
5:26come up with a methodology and, uh
5:29actually fulfill this task, which was
5:33kind of self-task by people on the in
5:35the field actually. Uh, as far as I
5:38know, we were not requested to do that
5:39initially. My understanding was that it
5:41came out as a request from the OSCE
5:44mission. And somebody in the
5:46headquarters in Kyiv,
5:48uh, Swiss citizen actually who was on
5:51top of that project.
5:52Um, and I got involved in in that issue,
5:56the which was the systematic
5:58verification of allegations of civilian
6:00casualties.
6:02And even though we had the Minsk II
6:04agreement, you still had sporadic
6:07shelling you know, every now and then.
6:10Uh you know, we had some hot spots along
6:11the line of contact. In some areas, uh
6:14it was really quiet for months, nothing
6:16would happen. But in other areas, uh it
6:19it was as we call them hot spots,
6:22meaning that there was ceasefire
6:24violations every day, literally every
6:26day.
6:27Uh we had a few like that, like Eastern
6:29Mariupol was a hot spot.
6:31Uh also an awful Golovka was a hot hot
6:34spot. And then in the Luhansk region,
6:37there was another hot spot uh around the
6:40um
6:41and I forget the name of the town now.
6:43Uh Okay, maybe it will come back later.
6:46But there was another town also uh that
6:49was very hot over there. So, overall, I
6:52would say we had the Zholobok was very
6:54hot. You should remember.
6:56So, once in a while we had civilian
6:58casualties.
6:59And it was up to people like me to try
7:02to um verify uh these casualties. And we
7:06had a very rigorous methodology.
7:10Uh we had to confirm a casualty from
7:13three different sources.
7:15Uh one was medical, one was official.
7:18Official could be municipality, local
7:20authorities, or the local police.
7:23Um and last one would be the victim
7:26himself or herself if the person was
7:28only wounded. Or uh in case of fatality,
7:32then we would uh ask a verification from
7:35the family or neighbors if we couldn't
7:38uh get in touch with the family.
7:39And you know, you can guess that was not
7:42the most pleasant part of the job.
7:44Um even when you were supposed to verify
7:47um
7:48um wounded people. It It happened to me
7:50once to
7:52check out on somebody who had just been
7:54wounded. He was still breathing inside
7:57the ambulance. And uh it just just
8:00happened in front of my eyes.
8:02So, you know,
8:03it was my duty to get there and try to
8:06ask his name, you know, because we had a
8:08database in which we had everybody by
8:12name, birth date, address. Uh, it was a
8:16kind of a sensitive database.
8:19And I had access to that. Um, now, for
8:23your information, initially I was
8:24deployed in Kramatorsk, as I said, and
8:27then I moved to Mariupol, which was a
8:29different base. Uh, and I spent also
8:31some time in Donetsk base on the other
8:34side. And when we were in Mariupol, we
8:36could actually work on both sides of a
8:38lot of contact.
8:39Uh, government-controlled side and
8:42non-government-controlled side. Uh, and
8:45that was
8:46much more interesting than just to see
8:49things from one side only.
8:51Because in Kramatorsk, when I arrived in
8:522015, I could see that the the uh,
8:56observers, the monitors in the base
8:59were kind of biased because they only
9:01had one side of the story, you know. We
9:05would not go on the other side in those
9:07days.
9:08And at some point, the
9:10uh, our team leader, team leader was
9:11like a regional director for the whole
9:14oblast, decided to impose to every hub,
9:17we had three hubs in the Donetsk oblast,
9:20she decided to impose that every one of
9:23us would have to
9:25work also part-time on the other side to
9:27see how it was there.
9:29And
9:30it was a
9:32big decision that she had made, a very
9:34good decision. Because then it helped a
9:36lot of people, a lot of us observers to
9:39see that
9:40actually you you develop an
9:42understanding of the conflict that can
9:44be quite different when you see things
9:46from the other side.
9:47Um, because there there was very little
9:50information that was coming out from
9:52non-government-controlled areas, you
9:54know. Uh, so you had to be there to
9:57figure out what was going on.
9:59And, um, as I
10:02as I went along, I discovered that
10:04actually, in terms of civilian
10:06casualties, there were many more
10:08civilian casualties due to shelling and
10:10shooting on the other side than on the
10:13government-controlled side.
10:15And this was not obvious if you were
10:18just watching the news because if you
10:20were watching Western news or Ukrainian
10:22news, you had the impression that all
10:24ceasefire violations were caused by the
10:26separatists, the pro-Russians,
10:28and that Ukraine, you know, was never at
10:31fault or hardly ever at fault or if it
10:34sometimes if you if it would violate the
10:36ceasefire, it would only do so as
10:39retaliation, right?
10:41But the reality on the ground was not
10:43exactly that.
10:45Uh and
10:46many observers had the feeling that in
10:49some of these hotspots, it was the
10:50Ukrainian side that was initiating the
10:53firefights.
10:55It was even one of your colleagues, uh I
10:58mean compatriots, I should say,
11:00uh who was back then he was um
11:03deputy team leader in Donetsk.
11:06I forgot his name.
11:07Uh but one day when we had a high-level
11:10visit, uh he told us that one of the
11:12hotspot north of Donetsk, which was the
11:15water filtration station,
11:17the
11:17the water filtration station was right
11:20in the no man's land,
11:22uh like in between the trenches of the
11:24sides, and it was regularly shelled.
11:28Uh but the staff that was working there
11:30on a daily basis,
11:32they were all people from Donetsk city,
11:34so from the separatist side.
11:36So it would have end the um the service
11:39they were actually um providing was far
11:43and foremost for the city of Donetsk
11:45itself.
11:47So in other terms, it was highly
11:49unlikely the separatist side would shell
11:51their own water filtration station that
11:53they are dependent upon.
11:55But if you looked at official reports,
11:58you would never know who was shelling
12:00this place.
12:02Uh
12:02and
12:03your compatriot once he told us, even
12:06though I never saw it in a report,
12:08but during this high-level visit, he
12:10informed the crowd when I was in
12:12Mariupol,
12:13he said, "Oh, you know what? He said, I
12:15asked regularly the patrol the next
12:18patrol that go on the over there and I
12:20asked them, who's actually initiating
12:23the firefights most of the time you're
12:25there?"
12:26And most of the monitors said it was the
12:28Ukrainian side.
12:30Right?
12:31But, I never saw this in writing.
12:34And this was again one of your
12:36compatriots who said that in front of an
12:38audience of 100 people.
12:40Um, so
12:43there was a lot of information that
12:45never made it to reports, very relevant
12:47information.
12:50Uh, for various reasons. Uh, there was
12:52some um
12:53sometimes uh, self-censorship
12:56uh,
12:57from monitors.
12:58And sometimes it was censorship
13:01internally
13:02uh,
13:03within the mission.
13:04Uh, I I ended up finding reports that
13:08were
13:09falsified
13:11in them in our mission.
13:13Uh,
13:14in a very obvious way. Uh,
13:17when I was in Kramatorsk.
13:19Um, and it I talked to other people and
13:21they said they also got their reports
13:24falsified. I also I I had another
13:26British colleague in Luhansk who told me
13:28that one of his report had been
13:30falsified.
13:31When the report that came out officially
13:34the public report
13:35based on his own patrol report
13:38was not exactly what he said.
13:40You know, in this case
13:42he said he was near the line of contact
13:45and he heard gunshots, but he never
13:46specified where the gunshots came from
13:48because he didn't couldn't tell.
13:50And in the final report
13:52it was written, "Gunshots from
13:54separatist side."
13:56It was accusing separatist side. And
13:58then when he wrote read this, he said,
14:00"Well, he was amazed because I never he
14:02told me I never wrote that."
14:04We he said, "We were unable to tell, so
14:06how can they make it up?"
14:07Right? Just to give you another example.
14:10I in in my case it was a
14:12uh,
14:13exchange
14:14um, exchange north of Golovka.
14:17Um, between between, you know, the two
14:20sides. And, uh, there were
14:22uh, allegedly damages on both sides.
14:26But, then when I when I was doing a
14:28synthesis for human dimension, you know,
14:30on such things, uh, on a weekly basis,
14:33and when I was reading the daily reports
14:35from our base, at some point there was
14:36something that didn't make any sense.
14:39Um, because our patrol said that they
14:42met uh, the mayor, and the mayor said on
14:45the government control side,
14:47"There's no damage in our village."
14:49Okay, there's no damage in our village.
14:51Yet, in our own report where we talked
14:53to the mayor who says there's no damage,
14:56we observe our observers say, "Oh, we
14:58actually observed damages to five
15:00houses." So, well, there's a
15:01contradiction here.
15:03So, how can we solve it? So, I asked the
15:06head of reporting, who was an American
15:08former diplomat,
15:09uh, career diplomat, uh, a nice guy,
15:12actually, honest,
15:14uh, and I asked him, "I There's
15:15something in the daily report from our
15:17base that I can I cannot make sense of.
15:20Can I have a look at the patrol reports,
15:22please? The initial patrol reports.
15:24Because in our in Kramatorsk, we didn't
15:26have access to those. Only reporting
15:29office had. It was a way to control
15:31information, as I later found out.
15:33Um, so, and then when we searched for
15:36individual patrol reports, which is then
15:38that we saw with this, uh, head of
15:40reporting that the report had been
15:43falsified.
15:45And where where the patrol saw the five
15:48damaged houses was on the same day, in
15:51the same
15:52geographical area, but it was on Golovka
15:55side, meaning on the
15:57DPR non-government control side.
16:01I mean, how can you make such a mistake?
16:03It's not possible to make such an
16:05obvious mistake. And and how come
16:07nobody, uh,
16:09who wrote who read that report didn't
16:12see the contradiction inside our own
16:14report?
16:15How was this solved? I couldn't
16:17understand. I never checked what was the
16:21daily report of that day. Maybe at some
16:24point they decided to solve this
16:25contradiction by deleting one part. So,
16:29I guess
16:30I don't know which part they would have
16:31deleted. But, our hub was not aware that
16:34everything had been changed. The head of
16:35reporting in our hub he didn't he was
16:37not aware there was a mistake to start
16:39with.
16:40So, we corrected this
16:43mistake in our weekly report, but the
16:46weekly report was not public.
16:48Weekly weekly report was just meant for
16:51the OSCE delegations in Vienna.
16:53>> Mhm.
16:53>> All [clears throat] right? But, the
16:55public report
16:57came out with the mistake I remember
16:58apparently.
17:00And
17:01then interestingly the I found out that
17:04the
17:05monitor who was in charge of daily
17:07report of our base that day
17:09he had an interesting profile. He used
17:11to work for NED, you know, National
17:13Endowment for Democracy.
17:16Who we now know is basically works in
17:20the
17:21in various countries in in order and
17:24they do what the CIA used to do
17:27before
17:28until the '80s, meaning like trying to
17:31work on the
17:32civil society to provoke
17:35you know color revolutions more or less.
17:37That's the idea. And that guy I knew he
17:40had been working in Ukraine for NED for
17:42about five or six years before joining a
17:44mission.
17:45And the very first time I see
17:48an obvious falsification of a report, he
17:50was the one in charge.
17:52So, he claimed it was a human mistake.
17:55He claims, "Oh, I'm sorry, you know, you
17:57know what it is. You're under pressure.
17:58You can make mistakes. Sorry." Okay.
18:02Um but okay.
18:05I don't [laughter]
18:06I'm not convinced this was a human error
18:08because I don't see how you can make
18:09such an obvious human error. So, that
18:11gives you an idea of the atmosphere that
18:13was going on.
18:15And
18:16going into
18:17>> Did you ever did you ever raise your
18:18concerns higher up about basically kind
18:20of falsifying cuz
18:22I've read the public reports. Obviously,
18:24I didn't have access to Well, I would
18:26have had access to the weekly reports
18:28when I was at the OSCE Moscow, but I
18:30not since I left the diplomatic service.
18:32So, you think people were deliberately
18:34falsifying to give a much more favorable
18:37impression of
18:39the military tactics on the Ukrainian
18:41side and to kind of cast the Russian the
18:43sector side in a darker light, right?
18:46>> Yeah, that's exactly my impression of
18:48working over there for 5 years, and I
18:50have numerous examples of that.
18:52And also, the two cases that I know
18:56where reports were falsified, I know
18:59Actually, I know three cases, but two
19:01officers involved.
19:02And one of the officers involved was an
19:04American woman
19:06who worked in the
19:08reporting office in the headquarters.
19:11And I know two different observers who
19:13both told me on different accounts that
19:16they uh
19:18they knew that she falsified her report.
19:22Uh at least one in the two different
19:24cases.
19:25And that person was from um
19:30very reliable information was dating a
19:32lieutenant colonel of the SBU.
19:35Uh
19:36can you imagine? Who was supposed to be
19:38a neutral mission. Uh and one observer
19:42in a very sensitive position
19:45was dating a
19:47lieutenant colonel from the SBU.
19:50Um I mean, I was amazed. You know, I
19:51served abroad
19:53in many different either French mission
19:55or international mission. It's first
19:57time I saw things like this happened in
19:59this OSCE mission in Ukraine. And you
20:01know, apparently, nobody cared.
20:04Even in our base in Kramatorsk, I
20:06I found out at some point that one of
20:08our interpreters, who was following us
20:10in very sensitive interviews, her
20:13husband was from the SBU.
20:16And so, I asked my my
20:20manager at that time, "So, where
20:22So, what do we do about it? Is that
20:24normal?"
20:25I said, "Oh, yeah, we know it's okay. We
20:28trust her."
20:30Okay.
20:31But, you know,
20:33I think that even if she was honest, she
20:36must have had huge pressure from her
20:38husband to get information, obviously.
20:41And by the way, that woman ended up
20:43divorcing her husband. No wonder. Um
20:47but,
20:48uh you know, there there was
20:51in other terms, you know, it was
20:52considered to be natural, normal to be
20:55pro-Ukrainian in that mission, even
20:57though our mandate specifically stated
20:59that we were supposed to be neutral.
21:02That was in the mandate. Right? But,
21:05most Westerners understood well,
21:08maybe I shouldn't stay say most, but
21:10many. Many Westerners, especially those
21:12in higher levels, understood this as
21:15it's normal to be pro-Ukrainian, of
21:17course.
21:18But, if somebody, you know, was uh
21:23considered to be too close to the
21:24separatists, you know, I know a couple
21:27of cases where they uh their contract
21:29was ended.
21:31You know?
21:32So, it was kind of um you know, double
21:36um double standards. And this
21:38>> So, so you're saying
21:39>> [clears throat]
21:39>> uh see monitors who
21:42were accused uh or alleged to have kind
21:45of too close relations with the
21:47separatists on
21:48the Donbas on the kind of um
21:52non-government controlled side of the
21:53line of contact were
21:55sacked because they're seen to be as too
21:58close to the separatists, right?
22:00>> Yeah, I know two cases
22:03um
22:03of non-Russians. I mean, there were a
22:05couple of Russians who were sacked
22:07uh because of um they were trapped
22:10somehow because they were
22:12filmed um
22:13I mean, one of them was filmed saying,
22:15you know,
22:16uh
22:18bad things about Ukraine.
22:19And
22:20uh so, somebody filmed him. It was very
22:23became public, so he
22:25dasvidaniya, as we as we said, you know?
22:27He He left the mission and we never saw
22:29him back.
22:30Uh another guy got invited to the
22:33wedding of one guy from the uh Cossack
22:36Cossack on the
22:38uh
22:39um separatist side. And that that was
22:43actually this was told to us during the
22:45induction course.
22:46Uh and this was given to us as an
22:48example of the things not to do.
22:51It was like the don't do's and don'ts,
22:53you know?
22:54And they told her they told us, you
22:56know, one monitor in Luhansk region uh
22:59accepted an invitation to go to the
23:01wedding of the a soldier, you know? And
23:03so we said, "Don't do that." You know,
23:05this guy went home.
23:07So now you have a warning, you know, of
23:10the do's and don'ts.
23:11Um
23:13So and okay, I mean, nobody didn't have
23:15a problem with that. Um
23:17but as I said, then you have somebody
23:18who dates a return call from return a
23:20call from SBU and that goes, you know,
23:23uh okay, it goes okay.
23:25Um
23:27But um
23:29who else? I also another monitor I heard
23:33I mean, she had like two issues.
23:35One issue was maybe a drinking problem.
23:37Another issue was too close to work to
23:39uh separatist.
23:41So her contract was not renewed as I
23:43heard and she never saw her again.
23:46Um
23:48But
23:49yeah, otherwise going back to the
23:51civilian casualties, that's an important
23:53issue because at some point
23:55you know, I said I started to work on
23:56the Donetsk Oblast and then I moved to
23:58the Luhansk Oblast. And in the human
24:01dimension field, I think I was the only
24:03one
24:04who happened to work in both oblast. And
24:07when you had access to the database of
24:09civilian casualties, which was
24:10considered once again a sensitive
24:12document,
24:14you would only see when you were in
24:15Donbas the list of the uh your own
24:18oblast, the oblast where you work.
24:21So when I was in Donetsk, I wouldn't see
24:23the data for Luhansk Oblast and vice
24:25versa. But since I moved from one area
24:27to the next.
24:29And um
24:30when I was in Donetsk Oblast, I started
24:33to make statistics into the year 2018
24:36beyond what we had started to do in
24:392016. So, I had 3 years of data.
24:42But our mission only published one year
24:44of data because with the data we
24:46published
24:47um
24:48created
24:49a
24:50problem with the Ukrainian delegation.
24:52The Ukrainian delegation didn't like our
24:54report at all
24:56because on page seven, even though it
24:59was kind of hidden in on page seven, we
25:01had a statistics that said 63% of uh
25:05civilian casualties of were verified on
25:08the separatist control side.
25:10Right? Meaning
25:12uh
25:13that most of them were actually caused
25:16by Ukrainian forces.
25:18So, that's why Ukrainian government
25:19didn't like it at all and they accused
25:21us of being
25:23uh manipulated by Russian monitors. Um
25:26They said, "No, no, no, this can't be
25:27true. You must have been misled by
25:28Russian monitors.
25:30Um so, we refuse this report. You have
25:34to amend it or suppress it." And it was
25:37a big problem for our mission.
25:39And then
25:41our head of mission decided that from
25:43then on
25:44we would cease to publish
25:47um
25:47disaggregated civ cas figures, civilian
25:50casualties figures.
25:52Meaning that we wouldn't be able to say
25:54on which side
25:56you would we would verify the highest
25:58number of civilian casualties.
26:00Even though we continued to document
26:02that
26:03actually, but we would not say anything
26:05publicly about it. Even you know, to the
26:09uh OSCE delegations.
26:11Um so, we stopped doing it. But as years
26:15went went by, I could see that the trend
26:18was only getting worse.
26:20Uh I was the
26:22Mariupol back then and in Mariupol, I
26:23mean, the percentage of civilian
26:25casualties
26:26on the
26:27non-government control side was 90%
26:30in the year 2018.
26:33It was 90% to 10%.
26:35A huge discrepancy.
26:38A huge imbalance.
26:39Um and this imbalance was
26:42uh much more visible if you considered
26:46uh
26:46the victims that uh were cons- uh they
26:49were um direct consequences of what we
26:52call the continuation of the conflict,
26:54meaning shelling and shooting.
26:55So, when I say 90 to 10, it's when you
26:58only focus on the uh shelling and
27:01shooting.
27:02Right?
27:03Um because actually when we published
27:05this disaggregated figure in 2017 for
27:09the year 2016 of 63%, it was all causes
27:13included.
27:14But if you had focused only on
27:17and all causes including it means also
27:19mines, booby traps,
27:21uh unexploded ordinances.
27:23Uh
27:25But this is considered not the
27:26continuation of the conflict. These are
27:28like remnants of the conflict.
27:31But um
27:32for me the the most
27:34um
27:36uh
27:37interesting cause of of injury or death
27:40was the shelling and shooting, the
27:42continuation of the conflict, because
27:43that showed that there was something
27:46worrisome. It was not just you know,
27:48people just walking on mines.
27:50It was a proof that the Minsk agreement
27:53were not respected.
27:55Still, all right?
27:56And the the this
27:58um data and uh was like uh you know,
28:01proof
28:02of that the Minsk agreement were not
28:04respected and by whom.
28:06That that was too sensitive to report
28:08about.
28:10So, but
28:11um by the year 2018, I remember I
28:14attended a um you know, Biletsky, Andriy
28:16Biletsky. He came to Mariupol. He made a
28:18conference in as a preparation for his
28:21uh election campaign.
28:22He wanted to run for president following
28:25year. Uh
28:26but in the end he changed his mind. Then
28:28he ran for parliament.
28:30But in those days he was not really
28:32sure. It was considered maybe he would
28:34run for president. So, I went there
28:36officially as an OSCE monitor to attend
28:39his conference in Mariupol with a
28:41colleague. We were It was just the two
28:43of us.
28:44And uh it's It was very interesting
28:47actually, but parenthesis. Uh I reported
28:49about I reported about this in my book
28:51for who was interested in all of this.
28:53Book that I wrote about my experiences
28:55called the What I Saw in Ukraine. So,
28:57all these details of what I'm telling
28:58you now it can be found in this book.
29:01So, anyways, once Biletsky had was done
29:04with his speech,
29:06uh which was quite interesting. It
29:08didn't matter whether you would agree
29:10with it or not, but it was quite
29:11interesting to hear, to see his mindset,
29:14his logic.
29:16Uh
29:16And um
29:18afterwards there was questions and
29:20answers with the crowd. And one person
29:22in the crowd, a woman,
29:25she made a proposal to Biletsky. She
29:28said, "Uh I have a proposal for you.
29:31We should do like the Israeli military."
29:34Uh meaning that every time, you know,
29:36the other side injures one of our
29:38soldiers,
29:40we should basically block all the um we
29:43call it the um
29:44uh
29:46I forgot the uh how to call what one of
29:48the We had um
29:51checkpoints along the line of contact
29:54that you could cross. We call that EECP,
29:56entry
29:58EECP entry exit control
30:02>> Yeah, we had five of them.
30:04So, uh that what she was proposing was
30:06that all these uh
30:08EECPs should be closed for the whole day
30:11each time there would be one wounded
30:13Ukrainian soldier.
30:15And Biletsky said, "Oh, well, that he
30:16said, "Oh, that's an interesting idea. I
30:18think I will put it in my program."
30:21And then, you know, I realized this
30:24woman doesn't seem to realize that there
30:26are many more victims on the other side
30:28than on the
30:30government controlled side.
30:32She seemed to ask this question with the
30:34with the understanding that the other
30:36side was shelling Ukraine but Ukraine
30:38was never shelling the other side.
30:40Which I knew
30:42was very far from the truth.
30:45Because our
30:46data suggested that
30:49it was rather the other way around,
30:50right?
30:52So then at that moment I realized
30:56there's something wrong here because
30:57we're misleading not only our own
30:59diplomats in Vienna, we're misleading
31:02the whole country.
31:04We're misleading Ukrainians. We're
31:06misleading the entire world.
31:08Because Ukrainians believe that
31:11Ukrainian military does not shell and
31:13that
31:14it is a victim and that
31:17everything is the fault of the
31:18separatists.
31:19This is not the true the truth. We're
31:21misleading everyone.
31:23So and I thought if our goal is to
31:26report the facts on the ground and to
31:29foster peace, which was written in the
31:30mandate,
31:31we should monitor facts and foster
31:34peace,
31:35then we should tell the full truth.
31:38So that maybe there would be less hatred
31:40on the Ukrainian side and they would be
31:42less tempted to justify shelling the
31:45separatist side and maybe that would
31:47help to lower the tensions and we will
31:50stop people will stop shelling each
31:52other, you know? But we got to start
31:54with the truth.
31:55We got to start with the truth.
31:57So
31:59I decided at that moment to let my Iraqi
32:01know
32:02we are not doing the right thing here.
32:05We have to change the way we do our
32:07reporting.
32:08And I requested a meeting with the head
32:10of mission in in Kiev.
32:12Because he visited us before and he told
32:14us, you know, I have an open door
32:15policy.
32:17If one day any any of you wants to see
32:19me to talk about anything, my door is
32:21open. So I took him for to his word.
32:25So my last trip to Kiev, I asked for a
32:28meeting and I told him you know
32:31more or less what I told you.
32:33And I said we have to change our policy
32:36regarding reporting
32:37uh about civilian casualties because we
32:40are misleading everyone.
32:41So, the head of mission listened to me
32:43politely
32:44and then he said, "Okay, well, put this
32:46in writing.
32:48Put me a proposal in writing and I will
32:49discuss it with the deputy head of
32:51mission and the head of reporting."
32:53Now, I kind of guessed, okay, um
32:56maybe this won't lead anywhere. And it
32:58didn't leave leave anywhere, right?
33:01Of course, I did my memo. I sent the
33:03memo to the head of mission and to the
33:05deputy head of mission and to the head
33:06of reporting and none of them did even
33:09answer me anything.
33:11Uh I published the memo in my book, by
33:13the way.
33:14Um but everything was done
33:16>> I'll put a link to your book I'll put a
33:18link to your book in the description um
33:21box of this video. Maybe at the end of
33:23the the discussion you can maybe sort of
33:25just talk about the
33:26>> [clears throat]
33:27>> a bit about the book as well.
33:29>> Thank you very much.
33:30>> So, so the OC admission basically didn't
33:32reply to your recommendation to
33:34>> didn't reply to my proposal to publish
33:37the statistics.
33:39So,
33:40actually back then uh you know, I had
33:43started like to make my own table. I
33:45said, "Okay, if nobody else does it, I
33:47will do it."
33:48So, I uh
33:50with the database that I had, uh
33:52I basically made a statistical table sh-
33:55in one sh- sheet showing uh the the
33:59trends.
34:00And um I sent it up the chain of
34:03command. So, locally I was um
34:05complimented. I was compli- complimented
34:08in my hub. I was employable when I did
34:09this.
34:10Uh I was complimented by my colleagues
34:13in in Donetsk uh human dimension
34:15Donetsk.
34:17But from the headquarters, I heard
34:19nothing.
34:21Nobody said anything. Uh
34:24This just one one guy from the human
34:26dimension head office, he said, "Well,
34:27you know, it's not up to you to make the
34:29statistics. It's up to us." I said,
34:30"Yes, I know, but you won't do it."
34:33So, I'm doing it since you don't do it.
34:36Uh
34:36and because somebody needs to do it, you
34:38know,
34:39uh
34:40And uh but okay, there was no uh change
34:43at all about anything. Uh and then I
34:46even shared actually this table with my
34:48own embassy.
34:49They were very interested. I mean
34:51politely interested.
34:53But nothing changed.
34:55Uh so, I tried with the mission, nothing
34:58changed. I tried with my embassy,
34:59nothing changed.
35:00Um then
35:02uh when I moved to Luhansk, I saw it was
35:05the same trend.
35:06So, I updated my tables. I sent it again
35:09my updated table for the whole of Donbas
35:11to everyone.
35:13Uh I got I'm I made a special brief in
35:16for the Luhansk team.
35:18You know, I've got people who told me
35:20this is great job what you're doing. Uh
35:22we should be public about this. I got
35:23people who wrote I mean, average
35:25monitors who wrote to me emails that's a
35:28great job. We should be public about it.
35:30But we we never published anything about
35:33such things.
35:34It remained hidden.
35:36And then when the head of mission left
35:382018
35:40the same head of mission who told me
35:42that's an interesting idea but who
35:43didn't do anything about it. Then he
35:45confessed to me uh which something that
35:48I had already heard that
35:50you know, he was under so much pressure
35:52from the Ukrainian government that uh
35:55after the first report that we published
35:57with uh
35:58showing the 63% figures and my figures
36:01from between 2016
36:0316 to 18 all included.
36:06All Donbas included was 72%.
36:09Of casualties on the
36:12uh separatist side.
36:14So, it was almost three out of four.
36:1872%. Then you had about 25% on the
36:20Ukrainian control side and then you had
36:23a two or three percent in the gray zone.
36:26So, we could not really blame this on
36:28one side or another in the gray zone.
36:30Um anyways, uh he told me the head of
36:33mission, well, you know, I was I was
36:35under so much pressure
36:37that you know, I I could not publish
36:40this figures because we I could not even
36:42meet the separatist leaders.
36:44Even though our mandate, OSCE mandate,
36:47was that we should we were supposed to
36:49establish dialogue on the ground.
36:52Right? But our head of mission told me I
36:55was not allowed by the Ukrainian side to
36:57talk to the separatists.
37:00So, he said he he had to send his number
37:03two
37:04that's more discreet to do that job.
37:07So, it was the number two of the mission
37:08that was doing our part of the mandate,
37:10like talking to the bad guys. Bad guys,
37:12you know.
37:13>> [clears throat]
37:13>> Uh but the head of mission would never
37:15do so.
37:16Um so, just to give you an idea of uh
37:20what was wrong in this mission
37:23uh and why
37:24uh there was something wrong and why we
37:26did not do our job properly.
37:28So, uh since
37:29>> Why did you stay Why did you stay on for
37:31so long? Uh
37:33Why did you stick with the mission for
37:34so long?
37:35>> [clears throat]
37:36>> Well, because I thought maybe uh as long
37:39as I'm inside uh I I can push the head
37:43the management to be more open about
37:46things.
37:47But at some point, you know, I ended up
37:49understanding that there was nothing I
37:51could do.
37:53Uh so, I I actually resigned the first
37:55time in uh
37:57Well, first of all, I requested a
37:59long-term leave.
38:01Um
38:03So, that was given to me uh
38:06by at the end of 2019.
38:09I came back uh also because I had uh
38:11problems with some managers
38:14who were also very toxic. That was
38:15another problem of the mission. We had
38:17toxic managers.
38:19Um
38:20And uh I came back to give the mission a
38:22new uh chance, and after staying two
38:25more months, I realized, "Okay, no.
38:27This mission is a dead end." So, I
38:30finally resigned in March 2020.
38:34Uh thinking that um
38:36this was a waste of time for me.
38:39However, I came back to Ukraine
38:41by at the end of the year to observe the
38:43elections.
38:44I I a long-term observer of the
38:45elections.
38:46So, a different OSCE mission, and I was
38:48sent
38:49uh
38:50to Lviv, completely opposite, right? So,
38:53from Donbas to Lviv. So, uh it was very
38:56uh I was very fortunate, actually, to
38:57have a chance to observe, you know, the
39:00opposite sides of Ukraine.
39:02Um and try to understand, you know, one
39:06side and then the other.
39:07Uh so, also mentioned what I understood
39:11what I was over there in my book uh
39:13because it was very interesting to be
39:15deployed in the heartland of Ukrainian
39:17nationalism, where uh you know, Bandera
39:20was born. And I was, basically,
39:23uh working in the uh
39:25um I was about to say prefecture, but
39:27it's the uh how do they call it there?
39:29Um
39:30>> Oblast.
39:31>> Uh rayon. The rayon.
39:32>> Ah, rayon, rayon. Mhm.
39:34>> [clears throat]
39:34>> Yeah, uh I was working in the rayon
39:36where Bandera's family uh used to live,
39:38you know, there's a museum about him and
39:40so forth.
39:41Uh there's a statue all over the place
39:43uh in front of his high school, his
39:45school,
39:46uh and then there's a huge statue of him
39:48in in Lviv city.
39:50Um anyways, uh very interesting stuff.
39:53And then, I decided to come back to the
39:56mission because I was getting bored
39:58at the end of '21.
40:00And I thought, "Okay, I'll give it
40:02another chance.
40:04Maybe this time things will change." So,
40:07and uh and I ended up uh I thought I
40:10would be deployed to Donbas again, but
40:12they sent me to Odessa.
40:15So, after seeing the extreme east, the
40:18extreme west, then I ended up uh being
40:21deployed in the south, central south.
40:24>> Mhm.
40:24>> Another side [clears throat] of Ukraine.
40:25Very interesting, as well, for me to
40:27discover all the sides of Ukraine.
40:29Odessa was super interesting. I was in
40:30charge of political affairs over there.
40:33Um so, I was meeting uh local
40:35politicians from the um
40:38regional council, the municipality.
40:41Uh some of them used to be elected in
40:44the Rada in Kyiv. So, it was very
40:46interesting to talk with them. And the
40:47big issue at that moment was that is
40:49Russia going to attack or not.
40:52So, I was asking these questions to all
40:55of the different
40:57party representatives. And it was very
40:59interesting to talk to them one-on-one
41:02because then I realized that what the
41:04parties would say openly in the media
41:07and what the uh their representative
41:08would tell me face-to-face
41:10with the understanding that this would
41:12not be published. Sometimes it was quite
41:14different.
41:16>> Yeah.
41:17>> And they told me that they many
41:21politicians in Ukraine already then
41:24didn't dare to say what they really
41:25think.
41:26It was before Russia invaded. You know?
41:30But the the atmosphere was such that
41:33some people told me, "Well, you know, I
41:34wouldn't say that publicly, but I'm
41:36saying it to you."
41:38And in in the
41:39Odessa Oblast, many people were upset
41:42with the language laws.
41:44Because the language laws that had been
41:45actually
41:47pushed by Poroshenko in the year 2019
41:50uh
41:51they they came in full implementation in
41:532021.
41:55It was in
41:56in the media
41:57notably in schools.
41:59Uh and it was more or less
42:02almost a total eradication of the
42:04Russian language.
42:05>> Mhm.
42:05>> And in Odessa Oblast where you know, the
42:08vast majority of people speak Russian as
42:10a first language, that was really not
42:12something people [snorts] enjoyed. And
42:15especially in the south of the Oblast
42:16because nobody speaks Ukrainian in the
42:18south.
42:19Because they belong to minorities like
42:21Bulgarians, Moldovans,
42:24uh Romanians. And their first language
42:27as is not Ukrainian, it's all these
42:30different languages. And they use
42:32Russian as a second language.
42:35>> Yeah.
42:35>> Like a lingua franca.
42:37>> Lingua franca, right?
42:40So, when they were told, "Well, from now
42:42on you have to learn Ukrainian because
42:44otherwise you won't be able to
42:45understand anything in the media." Um
42:48then many people were upset, especially
42:50old people. And that's what the local
42:52politician were telling me.
42:53They said, "The old people will never
42:55learn Ukrainian. It's too late for them.
42:57Even for people who are like 50,
42:59it's a real challenge."
43:01>> Yeah.
43:01>> I even talked to politicians who said,
43:03"We now were supposed to know Ukrainian
43:05in order to run for the election
43:07election again."
43:08And some of them told me, "Well, I don't
43:10speak Ukrainian well enough.
43:12So, it looks like, you know, I'm going
43:15to have to give up on my political life
43:18because I can't speak Ukrainian."
43:20>> Crazy.
43:21>> So, this is something that was never
43:24discussed in the media, as far as I can
43:26tell, but that was the reality I was
43:28confronted with back then.
43:30>> Uh none of this surprises me,
43:32I'm afraid. Uh suppression of the truth,
43:35uh fear of speaking out, I mean, these
43:37are all kind of familiar themes,
43:38uh determination to blame Russia to the
43:40complete exclusion of any responsibility
43:43on the Ukrainian side.
43:44I I've I've got to dash off to something
43:46else, but why don't you uh
43:48give us a few brief words about your
43:50book, and then I'll I'll put a link to
43:51your book in the description box.
43:52>> Sure.
43:53Um I as I said briefly, I already I read
43:57sorry, I wrote this book
43:59because I thought uh whatever I wrote in
44:02this book should be public knowledge
44:04uh for the general public, uh for
44:06everyone to have a an understanding of
44:09what really happened in all these years
44:11on the ground.
44:13And I was uh
44:14I had the chance to, as I said, to be
44:16deployed in very different areas of
44:19Ukraine, very different areas of Donbas.
44:22Uh I don't think there's another monitor
44:25who saw as much as I did, honestly. And
44:28also because I was working with human
44:29dimension, I was dealing with a lot of
44:31sensitive information. I didn't mention
44:33that, but
44:34I interviewed people who've been
44:36tortured, some of them journalists, uh
44:39um
44:40>> By the Ukrainian side?
44:41>> Italians in most cases.
44:43Uh there's a lot of details about that
44:44in my book.
44:45So, I thought all of this
44:46>> To- to- tortured by the Ukrainian side
44:48or the separatist side?
44:51>> Oh, you know, in the thing is, I
44:53interviewed people who were tortured on
44:55the government also side,
44:57>> [clears throat]
44:58>> usually by volunteer battalions,
45:00sometimes by the SBU.
45:02Usually it happened on the day of the
45:04arrest because we were also following
45:06trials, conflict-related trials. I did
45:09that in Kramatorsk and then in Mariupol
45:11and we followed many of them.
45:14And there were two type of trials we
45:15followed. There were trials of so-called
45:16separatists and then there were trials
45:18sometimes of uh
45:20volunteer battalion members themselves
45:22whenever they got caught of for but for
45:25various years crimes, murder, torture,
45:28things like that. And what we saw was
45:31just the tip of the iceberg.
45:33Um
45:34>> Okay.
45:35>> But none of this has
45:37made it to reports
45:39as far as I know. So even if you were
45:41reading our reports, you would hardly
45:43see anything about that. Because we
45:45stayed hidden and we would only share
45:47information with uh
45:50United Nations Human Rights Observation
45:52Mission, monitoring mission.
45:55So that's my my book and then I even
45:57wrote a second book
45:58as a journalist when I came back. I work
46:00as a journalist between 2022 and 2024,
46:04heavily focusing on Ukraine and I use my
46:07background knowledge
46:08as a former observer in Ukraine to try
46:11to decipher, understand
46:14what was going on with this, you know,
46:16Russian Russian Ukrainian war between 22
46:19and 24, especially the allegations of
46:23war crimes against the Russians. I dig
46:26very much into that and
46:28what I
46:29>> What I'll
46:30I'll invite you back for a second
46:32discussion on that cuz
46:33>> from what we were told in the West.
46:35>> Yeah, I'll invite you back for a second
46:37discussion on that cuz I'm literally out
46:39of time. We've got to dash off to
46:40something else but let's meet up in a
46:42week or two and and we can maybe talk
46:44about your second book. But for now I've
46:46been parted. Thank you so much for
46:48joining. Sorry to have to have cut it
46:49short. I really would love to continue
46:51chatting for another hour but I I I
46:53literally have something else to do but
46:55I'll have you back in a couple weeks and
46:56we'll and we'll of cover your second
46:57book. Thank you for joining. Thank you
46:59everybody for watching wherever you are
47:01in the world. I wish you very much peace
47:03and yeah, Ben Bella Perry, let's thanks
47:05for joining us today and let's talk
47:06again soon.
47:08>> All right. Thank you very much.

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This page contains the full transcript of Ukraine Responsible for Most Donbass Civilian Casualties — OSCE Reports Falsified, Ex-Monitor Claims by The Peacemonger, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 7,576 words across 1,318 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

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