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UC Berkeley Author Talk: Paula Lehman-Ewing ('10) and Shayna Keyles — Transcript

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0:01so Paula it's wonderful being here in
0:03person with you today um over the course
0:05of the book you know we had a lot of
0:07phone calls and video calls but it's a
0:10different thing to be here in person um
0:14so I'd love to give you the opportunity
0:16to read a bit of your book before we
0:18actually start discussing the the
0:20process of writing it okay thanks sha
0:22I'm really happy you're here and that I
0:24got to like physically touch
0:27you um I yeah and it's great to be here
0:31um it definitely feels like coming home
0:34and um I I loved my time here at
0:36Berkeley I love that underground
0:38Scholars is co-sponsoring shout out to
0:40underground Scholars um they have uh
0:42organizations in a lot of campuses
0:45especially in California definitely
0:46check them out if you have not already
0:49um so I'm going to read a small bit that
0:52I think works for this audience not sure
0:54but we'll find
0:56out um so this is from the preface
1:00when I first wrote this book I omitted
1:02myself completely in workshopping some
1:05sample chapters however there was a
1:07Natural Curiosity about who I was and
1:09how I came across and how I came to
1:11cross paths with the people in this book
1:13to that end there are some stories about
1:16my journey to and around the modern
1:18Civil Rights Movement early on but as we
1:20enter the heart of the book the chapters
1:22profiling the movement Architects these
1:25personal anecdotes fade away my voice
1:27appears as a guide throughout but my
1:29goal goal is to amplify the voices of
1:31others not to speak for them or over
1:34them consider me an access point a
1:37conduit into world you may otherwise not
1:39be aware of or exposed to I will be your
1:42eyes and ears in the rooms of Revolution
1:44but I do not presume to own the messages
1:47that emanate from them the ideas plans
1:49and theories contained in this volume
1:51are presented through the lens of those
1:53most directly impacted by systems of
1:55Oppression all the conversations
1:57detailed here regarding those ideas were
1:59held cons
2:00consensually held and each person
2:02represented has agreed to be portrayed
2:04it is their up close and personal
2:06encounters with the systems they are in
2:07conflict with that have informed their
2:10Solutions it is their willingness to
2:12have their stories told that allowed
2:14this book to happen thank
2:16you I think that's a perfect starting
2:19passage Paula and it really kind of sets
2:20the frame for the whole conversation
2:22we're going to have today but first
2:24we're going to start um with a recent
2:26article that you were quoted in um you
2:28were interviewed by the SF Chronicle and
2:31you mentioned in those recent pieces
2:34you're featured in two pieces by the SF
2:37Chronicle you mentioned there that you
2:39don't actually expend that much energy
2:42in politics because you want to make
2:44sure you have space left over for social
2:47movements uh can you talk a little bit
2:49about how you view politics and
2:51movements as diverging from each other
2:54um and how that informed the writing of
2:56your book sure so um I'm a big fan of um
3:02like one of the one of the things that
3:04I've come to espouse is that um I don't
3:07look for political solutions to societal
3:10problems um to me political advancement
3:12is an individual advancement um having
3:15worked for a politician who now works up
3:17the street um but I versus a social
3:22movement which is about Community uplift
3:24and Community survival um I think one of
3:27the things that is revolutionary these
3:30days is the idea of taking care of each
3:33other um you know we live in a sort of
3:36doggy dog competitive
3:39environment um and I think politics is a
3:42perfect example of that um and for me
3:46the solution is not going to come from
3:48you know someone who is focusing on
3:53gaining power and then retaining power
3:54is going to come from boots on the
3:57ground um people who have real com ation
4:00um I had a great conversation with
4:01Muhammad Sheek last night um from
4:03critical resistance and one of the
4:04things he says is like we don't
4:06helicopter in Solutions so they're going
4:08to they want want to close this prison
4:10in
4:10Susanville um they're not going to tell
4:13Susanville what to do next they're going
4:15and they're having conversations with
4:16the people who live there and about what
4:18their economy needs and where the
4:19resources from that prison would have
4:21gone to um and you know as many Town
4:24Halls as you can pull off as a
4:26politician I don't think they get to
4:27have those conversations um so I believe
4:31in voting um but in terms of like
4:36investing my energy and time um I don't
4:40want to get to the end of an election
4:41season um and then just go like oh my
4:44God that was such a dumpster fire I give
4:46up um I want to go to work for a better
4:50future the next day
4:52also thank you yeah and I think that um
4:55aligns with why you published this book
4:58with North Atlantic books I didn't
5:00mention I'm the associate Acquisitions
5:02director at North Atlantic books um and
5:05we're really focused on systems change
5:08right um as you said taking care of each
5:11other is tantamount to doing systems
5:13change work um so from your perspective
5:17how does journalism how does reporting
5:19fit into systems change work um in the
5:23long run sure um I think there's a
5:27there's a
5:28couple answers the first that I sort of
5:30alluded to in the reading which is that
5:32we are the access point to places where
5:35people can't get in the door you get a
5:36press pass I remember I actually started
5:38in journalism um I wanted to write uh
5:42novels um but I uh I got into journalism
5:46because I went to Duke undergrad and I
5:48didn't want to wait in line for
5:49basketball tickets so I got a press pass
5:53got to sit in front row without having
5:54to wait and um but it was like an early
5:58seed that this is a way to get through
6:01doors and then to tell people who aren't
6:03allowed in those doors which arguably
6:05might shouldn't be erected anyway um to
6:09take them in with you and to report back
6:11that's what reporting is you report back
6:12what you see inside um and so I think
6:16that's uh that's where I think a lot of
6:18Journalism come in is just be eyes and
6:20ears for people who aren't up close with
6:22the situation um the other thing I think
6:25is that at its core journalism is about
6:28asking questions
6:30um which I think is the only way to like
6:32really have a dialogue I think you with
6:34the technological Revolution and um you
6:38know having the world at your fingertips
6:40on your phone we've we've and then
6:4224-hour news Cycles which are becoming
6:45progressively more prescriptive and
6:48analytical and speculative um you you
6:51have a sense that that we already know
6:54everything um and I think a really
6:57humbling part of being a journalist and
7:01a great part about being the journalist
7:02is that I get to have conversations with
7:04people because I know enough to talk
7:09with them but I haven't stopped asking
7:12questions um and I think that um I think
7:16that you know just in life not as a
7:18journalist but just as a person um I
7:21think it's a good way to have a dialogue
7:23is to ask questions and stay
7:26curious yeah I absolutely agree I think
7:28asking question question staying curious
7:30um showing up with empathy um is not
7:34only core to journalism but is also core
7:36to doing this community focused work um
7:40and one thing I want to ask you is
7:42you've been a journalist for many many
7:45years now and journalism is often
7:48writing shorter pieces right working on
7:51a tight
7:52deadline um you know working with your
7:54source and really trying to get someone
7:56else's voice out so for you what was the
7:59biggest difference between reporting and
8:02writing a fulllength
8:04book big question yeah um well so I got
8:08a an advanced copy of the book and I
8:10remember my reaction when it came in the
8:12mail was like where's the rest of the
8:14book cuz I had felt like I had written
8:16an
8:17encyclopedia B um because I am I'm used
8:20to writing these these short by lines um
8:24and my right before I started writing
8:28the book I was um
8:30well actually my last job in journalism
8:32I was an investigative reporter in
8:33criminal justice and um and so I was
8:38already I I like to really research so
8:41that part didn't change I just got to
8:43have a little bit more time because I um
8:46you know I had to write most of the book
8:49before I talked to
8:51you and um and so I got to do more
8:56research but I think more than that I
8:59hadn't realized that all that I had
9:01spent a lot of time in journalism and I
9:04had kind of trained myself to adhere to
9:07whatever that publication's voice or
9:09style guides
9:12dictated um and a lot of that became
9:14sort of cookie cutter and automated um
9:18and maybe I had to get like a little
9:20leniency to like flourish the lead um
9:24but when I wrote this book I realized
9:26that I really had to um remember how to
9:28tell a story
9:29um and for me that story was found in
9:32the humanity of people um which also
9:35disappered from kind of my approach to
9:37journalism it's about the things um and
9:40this was about um people and their lives
9:43and um and storytelling and so I really
9:45had to expand my
9:48um I had to I had to go back to learning
9:52how to tell a
9:53story yeah I think one of the things I
9:55loved most about working on this book
9:57with you is learning about all of the
9:59indiv uals that were profiled in every
10:01chapter you're learning not just what is
10:04the single
10:06activist uh instant that they're working
10:09on but who are they what brought them to
10:11this work what are they thinking about
10:14each day and you brought yourself into
10:17this book as well and as you alluded to
10:20in the passage that you read that wasn't
10:23necessarily your intention um what was
10:26that like uh including parts of yourself
10:29in this book especially when your goal
10:31was to uplift the voices of other people
10:34yeah it was it was um
10:37difficult um especially because as
10:39journalists we're not in the story right
10:41so um but for
10:43me the story quickly became about um not
10:48about politics and not about social
10:49movements it became about people and
10:51about humanity and in order to do that I
10:55had to
10:56become very like I have close friendship
10:59with most of the people in the book now
11:01um to like sit down and have an open and
11:04honest conversation about that
11:05especially as someone who like I have
11:08I've done Grassroots organizing in Black
11:10Liberation movements but um but like
11:13clearly you know like so like there
11:15needs to be a trust there needs to be an
11:17acknowledgement that someone who is not
11:20directly impacted is writing this book
11:23um but I'm going to get as close as I
11:27can to the heart of this story um to
11:29sort of try to tell stories that aren't
11:31getting out there um you know for me the
11:35biggest uh the biggest things in the
11:38book were um for me I'm proud of the
11:43incarcerated activists and artists that
11:45are in the book um because I think that
11:51that's a situation where unfortunately I
11:54have to I have to be the conduit you
11:57know they are in a system that is
11:59designed to not allow them a voice to
12:02not allow them public I mean Ivan's
12:04written four books but you read about
12:06him and mine you know like that's just
12:08the way it's kind of set up um and I
12:11don't like that but I'll do what I can
12:13to sort of get his voice in the halls of
12:15power because he has a story to tell and
12:17he has an idea and he is strong enough
12:20to try to improve a society that has
12:23told him they want nothing to do with
12:25him and they lock him up and throw away
12:27the key so um so I felt it necessary to
12:31to step in to make the readers and give
12:34them like a give readers a a really
12:36intimate portrait of these people
12:38because one I think their lives and
12:41their ideas are interesting um but two
12:44they are amazing
12:46people yeah originally I had a question
12:49and I'm just going to turn this into a
12:51statement okay um it's impossible to do
12:55journalism to write a book without a
12:57bias and I think what you're expressing
13:01here to an extent is you have to be
13:02intentional about what bias you're
13:05bringing to the page the bias you're
13:06bringing here is I want to be the
13:08conduit and make sure that the stories
13:10I'm telling are as true to the original
13:14voices that are sharing those stories so
13:16we can look at them and reflect on them
13:19as truly as possible yeah and I do and I
13:22I mean I don't want to I think it's
13:25important to challenge I mean when I
13:26when I talk about asking questions
13:28there's a chapter in the book about um
13:31reimagining capitalism and it's the
13:33model is based on capitalist principles
13:36and it's a it's a problem chapter with a
13:40lot of people it comes right after the
13:42chapter with Angela Davis who like says
13:45capitalism is going to be the the end of
13:47all of all times and um so in that
13:51chapter I challenged uh Mike um Killer
13:55Mike um and uh Ambassador Andrew young
13:59and I said and I I just laid that out I
14:02said I know capitalism has you know been
14:07sort of
14:09um
14:11anti-revolution and pro you know human
14:14exploitation how do you how do you
14:16justify that and for me where I take
14:19myself out of it is not excluding them
14:22from the book so not saying like well
14:25you don't
14:26align with my opinion majority opinion
14:29so I don't really want to tell your
14:31story anymore um mine mine is just
14:34saying like these are the problems with
14:35it this is their answer to it you know
14:37and that that's sort of how I moved it
14:40forward so you mentioned in this last
14:42answer Angela Davis you mentioned
14:44working with Mike render or Killer Mike
14:47how did you gain access to some of these
14:50folks with really high profiles
14:52well-known names I mean elasa shabaz um
14:55the daughter of Malcolm X wrote a
14:57fantastic forward for this this book how
15:00did you go about forming these
15:03relationships sure um shout out to my
15:06girl ilasa um
15:08she's I love her um so uh a lot of them
15:13were so like Angela Davis for example
15:16that's from just doing the work um from
15:18from being embedded in these groups um
15:22and knowing people and talking to people
15:25and I think having um some skin in the
15:28game Ed me a lot of credibility um you
15:31know I I think that it is so so to back
15:35up for a second so I was hired by all of
15:38us are none which is a Grassroots
15:39organization down here in Oakland to um
15:42to write a newspaper and that newspaper
15:45now goes into all the California prisons
15:46and several prisons across the country
15:49um but in doing that again not wanting
15:52to insert myself I try to fill it mostly
15:56with by lines from incarcerated writers
15:58or formerly incarc ated writers the ones
15:59that I wrote were kind of profiles of
16:01people who were out what their return
16:03home was like um and what they're doing
16:05now and then I wrote about some
16:07legislations as well
16:10um and so doing that
16:13work um helped earn me some
16:16credibility because one I I was doing
16:21the
16:21work um there only one way to do it two
16:25I I had gone from being kind of a jack
16:28of all trades General assignment
16:30reporter um to being a very specific
16:32beat reporter and being able to converse
16:35with people with a knowledge of with a a
16:38deep knowledge of what you're talking
16:40about um goes a long way like it was one
16:44thing when I would talk to people about
16:48you know how I read our prison obsolete
16:50by Angela Davis it's another thing to
16:52talk to people about Whit skin white
16:55mask by France fenan or black skinn
16:57white mask by France fenan so um so I
17:00think that incredibility the other thing
17:03is that um
17:06I I'll get I'll do that one last but um
17:10the another thing is uh I know how much
17:13burnout and how much time and energy it
17:17takes to fight in a decades long fights
17:20for PE or you know centuries long fight
17:23for PE peace and equality I know that
17:26like to be in that environment means
17:29there's something new every day to be
17:31outraged about um and to focus on and I
17:34know all the kind of moving parts that
17:36are going on in the fight for justice um
17:39and so I was
17:40very
17:42um respectful and open about people's
17:46time so I did as much research as I
17:48could before I actually talked to
17:50anybody um so that I really could ask
17:54them like with with
17:55Mike he gave me a half hour and so I
17:59went through and I watched all of his
18:01old interviews and I saw that in a half
18:04hour he on he on average answered two
18:06questions because the man likes to talk
18:08and so um so I was like okay if I only
18:11have two questions what what am I going
18:14to ask him and how can I fill in the
18:16rest and so that's what I did I I got
18:18exactly two
18:20questions um and so so that was you know
18:24a a part of it it was just being
18:26respectful of people's time and really
18:28focusing on that absolute important
18:30thing that they have to fill in um you
18:33know and then
18:34lastly the thing about social justice
18:36movements is they're quite
18:38persistent so no one could really fault
18:40me
18:41for for just following up and following
18:44up and following up I think I think
18:46elasa and I started
18:48talking right after you and I started
18:50talking and she wrote the forward in
18:52January so I you know it was just one of
18:56those things I'm respectful of people's
18:58time if they have the time I'll do
19:01whatever I can to like help them along
19:04extend deadlines do what I need to do um
19:08but I don't think especially when you're
19:10covering social justice
19:11movements anyone's everever going to
19:13follow you for being
19:15persistent I think your last point there
19:17also speaks to the writing process in
19:19general um at least in book publishing
19:22you know we we can set as many deadlines
19:24as we'd like to and at the end of the
19:26day if something isn't there if we want
19:30it we're going to wait for it if we want
19:32the right words from the right person to
19:35come in we have to wait for it well that
19:36would have been nice to
19:38know I mean we also really want our
19:40deadlines to come in on time I know so
19:45um I feel like you addressed this to a
19:47certain extent in your previous answers
19:50but most of the people you're interest
19:52you have been interviewing come from
19:54marginalized backgrounds um you've
19:56spoken with a lot of incarcerated
19:58activists most of the people you
20:00interviewed in the book are black you're
20:02coming from a very different
20:04positionality you're a white woman from
20:06a different socioeconomic class than a
20:07lot of the people you've spoken with
20:10what challenges did you and your
20:13interviewees encounter just navigating
20:16different parts of
20:18positionality um so one of the things
20:21that and I think I mentioned this before
20:22was that I really came from a
20:25perspective of learning a perspective of
20:28asking questions um again having that
20:32base knowledge and that sort of like
20:34deep understanding um of history and of
20:37what has already been put out there but
20:39still not having the answers um you know
20:42one of the one of the things that has
20:44obviously come up a lot recently is um
20:47is that I'm Jewish and that um I'm
20:50profile Black Liberation movements and
20:52that there is a close tie to free
20:54Palestine not not a close tie they are
20:56an intertwined struggle um and so I so
21:01what ha one of the things that I think
21:03is a is a good example of how I navigate
21:05these relationships is that
21:07after uh October 7th on October 8th I
21:13wrote an email to Muhammad check over at
21:15critical resistance I mentioned him
21:16before and I said hey I want to talk I
21:19want to understand this I want to
21:21understand the connection I want to
21:22understand where you guys are coming
21:23from I want to understand like the
21:26appropriate way to engage here and since
21:29then I've I've tooken a lot of
21:33information um but but that's what I
21:35mean is coming from a place um of
21:39wanting to understand um and I think
21:42that like that's really
21:46where I think at the core if you write a
21:49story about um Justice and equality
21:52you're writing a story about humanity
21:54and so I don't see myself that different
21:57from the people that I profile
21:59um obviously I have had the privilege of
22:02going to Great institutions and writing
22:05a book and working for Publications but
22:07at our core we believe in very similar
22:10things we believe in taking care of each
22:12other we we believe in um in people's
22:16voices and people that speak in their
22:18own voices um we believe in equality and
22:21I think those things made those
22:25relationships quite easy to navigate
22:28right and and as you write several times
22:30throughout the book The Core goal the
22:32core message of this book is Liberation
22:34is abolition is kind of the forward
22:38movement of Freedom led by the people
22:40who are most impacted and to that end I
22:42want to speak a little more specifically
22:45about relationships that you had with
22:47incarcerated activists um specifically I
22:50want to speak to how did you build and
22:53maintain relationships with Ivan Kilgore
22:56and Hashima Dunham who are each featured
22:59very prominently in this book and her
23:01doing amazing
23:03work so um Hashima was one of my writers
23:06when I wrote the newspaper for all of us
23:08are none um and it was very
23:11quick it was is very obvious from his
23:14first essay that he is incredibly
23:17intelligent and one of the things that I
23:19have found working with incarcerated
23:22writers with incarcerated artists which
23:24is where I the the standpoint I had come
23:27to before
23:29like that that was my kind of
23:31relationship with incarceration was that
23:33I knew formally incarcerated people um
23:36and was communicating with people who
23:38are inside through their writing and
23:39through their art and one of the things
23:41that became so obvious and I don't know
23:45why it took me so long to understand but
23:48like as the most incarcerated nation in
23:50human history um we uh walk up some real
23:55talent and Real Genius you know like um
24:01there are people in there who have
24:02dedicated themselves to studying um you
24:05know Ken Oliver who I'm going to talk to
24:07tomorrow night at um at the passages at
24:10SF fa building um he gave himself I mean
24:13he became a paralal um you know I think
24:17that the minds and um the minds that we
24:21and creativity that we lock up um is is
24:25just astounding um and so I wanted to
24:28know more about that I wanted to know
24:29more about what drives a person who um
24:33has been shunned to SC Society to reach
24:35back out to that society and try to make
24:37it better um you know one of the things
24:40about and so you know Hashima and I um
24:44we mostly wrote
24:45letters
24:48uh Hashima um he was in the Pelican bayu
24:53and so we become very we when it came to
24:57like the big interviews we did phone
24:58calls but I'm very protective of him um
25:02and because that is just like a whole
25:04nightmare um and then Ivan I had mostly
25:09conversations with he as a
25:11system because he has a nonprofit and he
25:14has
25:15internships um that um for college
25:18students um and he has a system for like
25:21navigating how to get how to be in touch
25:23with people on on the outside and so I
25:26had I had sort of talked to them about
25:27that but I in particular you know he
25:30he's not getting out you know and so
25:33he's he's forming I mean he's he's
25:35trying and and and who knows what sort
25:37of legislation is going to come down the
25:39ballot but like um he's trying to better
25:41a society he's not going to be part of
25:43like how I guess I find I need to talk
25:46to that person I need to talk to that
25:48person and figure out like what's going
25:51on cuz I I I envy that um I envy like
25:58and I also think as someone um like
26:01prison art in particular um you know
26:04you're coming up with something
26:06beautiful um in a place designed to take
26:09away all sense of beauty and humanity
26:12and um and for me I try to carry that
26:16into the world just like when everything
26:18seems dark and maybe there's an election
26:21coming up and it's like dumpster fire um
26:24that like if you look for the beauty if
26:27you find one beautiful thing or you see
26:29light at the end of the tunnel you will
26:31keep moving forward um and so that's
26:34what I've tried to do is um try to
26:36understand that perspective um you know
26:39professionally so that I could kind of
26:42explain it and show it because I think
26:43it's interesting but personally because
26:46it's been a
26:47lifesaver yeah and this question was not
26:50prepped um but I want to focus a little
26:52more on the art in the book um because
26:54for me that was one of the most powerful
26:58things here to see um this visual
27:01depiction from I believe there are six
27:04different artists that or no there were
27:05six different images sorry three
27:08different artists who are featured and
27:10each of the pieces of art are so
27:12different um we have a graphic novel
27:16style we have portraiture and then we
27:19have something based in cartoon drawing
27:23um and I'm wondering why was it
27:26important to you to include art and the
27:29artist depictions of their word in
27:30addition to this
27:33message um for specific styles of
27:37systems
27:38change um so I'm going to give two
27:41answers one is um a totally reasonable
27:45justification for why I did what I did
27:47and the other is that um I just love my
27:50guys like I these artists and their hope
27:55and their
27:58work it was just it was overpowering and
28:01I needed to bring them on this journey
28:02with me um I will say that two of them
28:05are no longer in prison which is
28:07fantastic um Scotty is the only one
28:10who's still incarcerated um
28:14and the the uh the other reason the real
28:18reason is that um when I worked for that
28:22newspaper one of the things that they um
28:25kind of hammered into US is that the
28:27people who who are uh closest to the
28:30problem are closest to the
28:32solution and I couldn't get closer than
28:34prison and so when we're talking about
28:37an prison abolition organization so um
28:41so the the the front page of the
28:43newspaper I don't think it's like this
28:45anymore um I left back in
28:472021 um the front page of the newspaper
28:51was a full-size image of of prison art
28:54um and so it was almost like habit by
28:57the time I wrote the book
28:58to just have it introduced by prison art
29:01and then um you know I went to my
29:03regular guys which is Gerald Morgan and
29:07um who's who's out here in Oakland now
29:09and uh Scotty Scott they have the
29:12majority of uh of images in the book uh
29:15carel Honeycut is the other one he has
29:17one image um we can get into that if you
29:20want but um but I just rent to my boys
29:22and I said I said you know I'm writing
29:24this book I want you guys to be in it I
29:26think people should know who you are I
29:27think people should should respect what
29:29you do because to me you know you can go
29:32to Fisherman's Warf and go to the art
29:34galleries and like being in a gallery
29:37provides value I guess for some people
29:40for me the the idea of Designing prison
29:43art is just it's revolutionary in itself
29:48but also it I think like the human toll
29:51to be able to do that makes the value
29:53even even more um even more valuable and
29:57I will say that um I compensated all the
30:01artists
30:03um I had to do I had to do two uh I had
30:07to do two um commissary deposits because
30:11they limit how much you can send but um
30:14but I think it's important that
30:16especially you know in this day and age
30:18you guys have a ballot measure coming up
30:20to take out the legal slavy exemption
30:22from the California state
30:24constitution um that they don't work for
30:26free anymore so that was important to me
30:28as well yeah absolutely and and you
30:32mentioned um you know commissary as one
30:35challenge to working directly with
30:39incarcerated people
30:41um and there were so many more things
30:44you mentioned that Hashima Dunham was in
30:47the shoe um and that you were writing
30:50letters to each other um in the book you
30:53talk about um the way that Vice news uh
30:57compromis IED the security and safety of
31:00Ivan Kilgore early on in the pandemic
31:03I'm wondering if you could talk about
31:05some additional obstacles that were
31:07faced when working with incarcerated
31:10activists and how you navigated some of
31:13these challenges and how you worked to
31:16maintain the safety of the people that
31:18you cared about and worked
31:20with yeah um so I think that working
31:24with incarcerated individuals is very
31:27important
31:29um but as journalists were trained to
31:32protect
31:32sources um and the consequences of
31:36people who have already had the floor
31:38ripped out from under them are dire so
31:40the Vice news um
31:43example people were starting to wonder
31:45about these um covid incubators called
31:48California prisons and um they were
31:51starting to get uh stories from inside
31:53and someone uh contacted Ivan at the
31:56time he had a Contraband cell phone
31:58which is very common and um and they uh
32:04they blurred his face but they did not
32:08disguise his voice um it was clear they
32:12said what prison he was in um you know
32:15and he um at first the guards tossed the
32:19cells of the people that like around him
32:23and said that it was Ivan's fault um so
32:26that they would take care of the pr
32:29problem um then they threatened to
32:31transfer him and we did a bunch of uh
32:34actually that's the first time that I
32:37heard his name was all usun filed a um
32:41an amich on that um so there the
32:45consequences are very
32:47real um that being said I don't
32:51think the other artist in the book is
32:53Carell Honeycut and the consequences
32:56were so real for Carell he actually did
32:58a full graphic novel version of Race To
33:00incarcerate I only put the first page of
33:02that in the book but he pitched U Mark
33:06Mau who wrote race and cars
33:09rate published a graphic novel version
33:11but it was too hard to do it with
33:13Carnell so they did it with someone on
33:15the
33:15outside um and so when I heard that
33:19first of all um people who are already
33:22dedicated to this have a difficult time
33:25working with incarcerated populations
33:28um so it takes time and I think that
33:32time is something we don't have a ton of
33:34in journalism but in the background to
33:36develop those relationships and to
33:40understand how prison Works um before
33:45you enter into these relationships is
33:47really important one of the advents of
33:49you know California prisons now is that
33:51um everyone is supposed to um have a
33:55tablet and so that you can communicate
33:58text message um it is again all
34:01monitored everything is always
34:04monitored um and uh but I you know that
34:10is that is one way to have more messages
34:13go back and forth or arrange times to
34:15call when Ivan and I first started doing
34:17that I just answered whatever time it
34:21was whatever I was doing because it's
34:22not like I can call back um and so and
34:26also you know
34:28he he calls my husband too now um but
34:32you know it's one of those things where
34:34what I told James is that they already
34:36feel forgotten so just pick up the phone
34:39you know just do what you can to
34:41remember to so they know that they're
34:42not being
34:43forgotten did I answer the
34:46question I think you did
34:50yeah um so to kind of wrap up this part
34:54of the conversation before we move into
34:56Q&A I want to ask how did writing this
35:00book I guess change your perspective
35:03both on your role as a journalist but
35:06also on what steps we need to take
35:09collectively as a society to move toward
35:12abolition to move toward Collective
35:14Liberation and especially to uplift
35:17Black Liberation
35:19um yeah what what changed for you since
35:23you began writing and since the book is
35:25now here published sure um many things
35:29and I'm sure I'll lose myself in my
35:31thoughts again but um the first is that
35:35I was very concerned and when I started
35:38writing the book was um I was
35:41disillusioned um and a little bit in
35:45Despair and
35:47hopeless um because the whole you know
35:52we
35:53have well first of all it was in 2020 so
35:56it was easy to get hopeless about it
35:57everything but um you know I had I was
36:02working in or an organization when
36:04Brianna Taylor when Brian Taylor was
36:06killed um when George Floyd was killed I
36:09um I was
36:11researching way like horrific ways in
36:14which black people were killed by police
36:16and um and like the the mindboggling
36:19statistics behind that um we had a
36:22president at the time that I'm now
36:25having to deal with again and um you
36:28know it just it seemed endless and the
36:30whole idea behind social justice
36:33movements and we were looking at the
36:35exact same we're protesting the same
36:38issues they were protesting in the
36:39original Civil Rights Movement so I was
36:41like what is the point like what are we
36:44doing um and after the book um I have a
36:50lot more hope um one reason is that
36:56those um
36:59um political
37:02issues uh are shortlived let's like if
37:05you want to look at the president we got
37:07maximum years and
37:13then I want you to call them
37:16an but social justice movements have
37:21been no most liar you know I have Angela
37:24Davis in my book and she has been
37:25fighting since Black Panther Party so I
37:28like I see that as hopeful I think you
37:32can see it yeah well when are we going
37:34to ever stop but like the fact that the
37:36the movement has kept moving for that
37:39long
37:40um really made
37:43me feel a lot better about whatever
37:46outcome happens you know in our
37:49elections or whatever happens tomorrow
37:52whatever the the new cycle breaks that
37:54is the catastrophe for that week um I
37:57know that people are going to show up to
37:59work tomorrow to try to make change um
38:02and that was that was very helpful for
38:04me um I think uh the other thing that I
38:10learned um is that is how many stories
38:14there are that aren't being told um and
38:18a deep sense of obligation to do that um
38:22and I think
38:24finally I don't think I knew where my
38:27place was
38:29before in the in the movement before I
38:32wrote the book um H I don't think that's
38:36uncommon for like a white person who's
38:39trying to just do the right thing um but
38:44and I think that's why you have people
38:46show up as signs because that seems to
38:48be the indicated thing to do um and so I
38:51wanted to know where my place and all
38:53this would be and at the end um the
38:56people I worked with for they gave me a
39:00place they said tell tell this story
39:03tell this story read this book you know
39:05and it's just for me um I've never
39:08really fit
39:10in I you know I uh was a tomboy who went
39:14to an all girl school for 13 years so I
39:18um it's actually a more comfortable
39:20place for me to be now it's just kind of
39:23being an amplifier and wanting to tell
39:25stories that matter
39:28thanks well a lot of what you shared in
39:30in that last answer really resonates
39:32deeply with me and um yeah I I think at
39:35the end of the day it's important to
39:38tell the stories of people who might
39:40have a challenge reaching the microphone
39:43um continue moving forward in a movement
39:46um because we we can't stop at a single
39:49moment um and maintain some sort of hope
39:52that the future will change um so I at
39:56this point we can open it up to
39:58questions um anyone who would like to
40:00yes sorry just before we start we're
40:03going to start with a virtual question
40:04um and just because everybody hears
40:06differently please wait for the mic to
40:08get to you before um you ask your
40:10question okay uh so we have here if
40:13politics is self-serving for career and
40:16power how can social movements take
40:18primary position in changing and making
40:21policy and
40:25legislation uh it's a great question
40:28um I think
40:31that abolition is fantastic but you ask
40:35any abolition abolitionist organization
40:38it's not like we're going to close all
40:39the prisons tomorrow so for what for
40:42where I'm standing things like
40:45legislative policies things like the
40:48legal slavery exemption um ballot
40:50initiative that I mentioned earlier to
40:53do as much as you can to stem the
40:55bleeding um is is incredibly important
40:58this is going to be a long process it's
41:00already been going on for a long time um
41:03and so to do anything you can to stem
41:06the bleeding is is important to me I I
41:10have um I started doing paralal work
41:14recently for um for Indigent defense um
41:18and so yes I'm participating in a system
41:21that I believe is needs to be abolished
41:25and and rethought um
41:27but I will do whatever I can in that
41:30system to stem the bleeding um and I I
41:33feel that that's just another way of
41:36moving forward is trying to find where
41:40um the hemorrhaging is and do what you
41:42can to sort of unfortunately put a
41:45Band-Aid on it until something better
41:47comes
41:52along I guess I should stand up um hello
41:55hi um so so the public perceives the
41:59role of journalists to be unbiased but
42:02as you already mentioned uh every
42:04journalist and whatever they produce
42:06there is some bias behind it um so in
42:09your opinion how do you propose
42:11journalists alert Their audience about
42:13these biases do you believe it should be
42:15implicit or and allow the public to come
42:18to that decision or do you believe it
42:20should be explicitly mentioned like the
42:22goal of this for example your book to
42:25uplift these voices right so
42:30so um I don't I don't think it's subtle
42:33now um I mean it might not be written
42:36but if you say you're watch you know
42:38you're an NBC gu MSNBC guy or a Fox News
42:41guy like we know what's going on so um
42:45so I don't think it's necessary um I
42:48think what's what's important is to
42:52have um
42:59I think what it's important is to have
43:00skin in the game so if people know that
43:03like I am writing about black
43:06liberations movements and I worked for
43:08chasa Budin um and I was part of a
43:11Grassroots organization they're going to
43:13know where I come from so maybe just
43:15having some biographical data besides
43:19like Paulo leaning is a freelance writer
43:22you know it's like if we put something a
43:24little bit more about like our
43:26experience I think um I think that would
43:29be telling but I also think that it's
43:31important that you talk to people who
43:34disagree with you um when I was a
43:37criminal justice reporter obviously I
43:39had you know Progressive ideas um my
43:43editor was Uber conservative and we
43:47never had a problem because she had
43:49never had a problem with any of my
43:50articles because it was just I just said
43:53how it was um and so that's one thing I
43:57think um that you can do is just kind of
44:00say how it was the same thing with you
44:03know when I talked to Killer Mike maybe
44:05my questions about capitalism kind of
44:10would show how he and I think
44:13differently um but like is it surprised
44:15that like you know a black rapper from
44:18Atlanta and a Jewish chick from New York
44:20think differently like I don't like you
44:22know it's just I think a lot of it is um
44:26is already out there and you just do the
44:28best you can to talk to people who think
44:31differently and ask them
44:45questions thank you hi um this is really
44:49inspiring um I I've been really um
44:54getting into like the idea of solutions
44:56journ journalism and would you define
45:00what you're doing here as falling into
45:02that category and if not why not um and
45:07sort of a second part to that is do you
45:09think speaking to Hope and giving our
45:12readers and viewers hope um because it's
45:15so much Doom and Gloom all the time um
45:19is solu Solutions journalism way to um
45:24because that's like focused on community
45:25work and what community are doing with
45:28the problems that we have um is that a
45:32way to maybe give yeah the readership
45:35Hope again and maybe want to um not just
45:39scroll past the news but actually read
45:41it and ingest
45:45it I can speak to this for a moment um I
45:49think it's important to give readers the
45:52option to take
45:53agency and if you're only focusing on a
45:57problem but not showing anyone who's
46:00working on it not showing any changes
46:03over time that creates the issue you
46:05just named where it's Doom and Gloom all
46:07the time and when you're focusing on a
46:10problem but maybe showing here's a
46:12community organization that acknowledges
46:14this problem and they're seeking funding
46:17to do some Grassroots organizing around
46:18it or they've been coming together for
46:20several years and actually hear how
46:22things have changed that shows readers
46:25that they can take agency whether on a
46:27small local issue or on the large scale
46:30so it it's focusing on Solutions
46:33recognizing that Solutions are
46:35incremental and giving readers the
46:38opportunity to make changes which I
46:40think is really essential and I I would
46:42consider that a form of solutions
46:45journalizing so I I would argue that um
46:50that that journalists are not obliged to
46:55provide hope or Solutions
46:59um that being said if what comes out of
47:03a conversation with a real person is a
47:06solution and some hope then that's
47:09fantastic I think that
47:12like to if you want
47:15to there's plenty of Hope out there cuz
47:18there's plenty of humanity out there so
47:20if you focus your your story on people
47:25the people who are living it the people
47:26who are doing it um people are going to
47:29relate to that story um I mean that's
47:32why social media is like so big right
47:33because we all participate in each
47:34other's imaginary lives online but like
47:37I I I think human connection is
47:40something that people really yearn for
47:43and so they're going to knock glaze over
47:46the news because they connect with
47:48people um I think that uh you see
47:53someone um I think that like if you go
47:55beyond the press release and Beyond
47:58someone like a politician who has you
48:01know kind of a practiced approach on to
48:04deal with
48:05reporters um and you just talk to like a
48:07person who's out there doing the work
48:09you're going to get a more interesting
48:11story you will probably get a solution
48:14or two um and you'll provide Insight
48:19that people are interested in because
48:20it's it's it's another person it's
48:22another person who's who's real and
48:24who's you know doing the work
48:27that's what I would
48:35say um I think this is kind of connected
48:38to the objectivity question but do you
48:39have advice for journalists who are like
48:42interested in covering social movements
48:44and maybe interested in covering you
48:46know things like prison abolition where
48:48to to be able to do that reporting
48:50meaningfully like you said you
48:51realistically need skin in the game but
48:54um where we're also kind of balancing it
48:56industry where depending on the
48:58publication you write for the editors
48:59you work with you're you there's a
49:01capacity or a chance that you could be
49:02punished for that you know having that
49:04involvement and having maybe vocal
49:07political convictions I feel like we're
49:08all kind of witnessing that right now
49:09with Gaza we're witnessing it um or we
49:12witnessed it in years past with BLM even
49:14with sexual violence and me too like
49:16there's there's sort of a pattern of
49:18sometimes uh depending on your identity
49:20maybe it's not permissible to allow you
49:22to speak how do you navigate that that's
49:24a great question um
49:27so journalism ain't
49:29easy especially you know for female
49:32reporters I just say that especially for
49:34reporters of
49:35color um I think that um if you're
49:39working for a publication that that
49:41isn't going to allow you to speak freely
49:42you're probably working for the wrong
49:44publication um I worked for a lot of
49:47wrong Publications um and uh I struck
49:52out on my own and wrote a book
49:55instead um
49:57I I think
50:00that that you you need yes you need to
50:05have skin in the game I also think that
50:07you
50:10um especially when it comes to mass
50:12incarceration and prison abolition or
50:14issues like Palestine um you can't have
50:17a neutral stance like as a human
50:20operating in society like you can't be
50:22neutral about certain forms of
50:24Oppression because a that's in Hume and
50:28be it contributes to you know the
50:32oppression um so but for me I can
50:37have very concrete opinions about
50:43controversial issues without necessarily
50:46prescribing an answer to them and I
50:49think that's where the where the changes
50:51is that like I can say I am
50:55anti-genocide I am anti anti-terrorist I
50:57don't find those two things in conflict
50:59with each other um but as a journalist
51:03I'm going to look at the Young activists
51:06in in Palestine and Israel to see what
51:09they have to say about a solution
51:11because I'm not there and I believe that
51:14they have the most powerful perspective
51:17and so I would say that if you're a
51:20journalist operating in a world of
51:23opinions that I wouldn't try to hide
51:25them I wouldn't try to not have them um
51:28I would focus on what your values are
51:30and what your beliefs are um but no in
51:33terms of prescribing and answers that we
51:37still have a long way to go and that
51:39that will really help your reporting is
51:41to ask those questions
51:56what was the process like of actually
51:59writing this book the timeline I'm sure
52:01you had so many different interviews
52:03over the course of this process just
52:06like what was like the general
52:08timeline sure how long does it take to
52:10write a
52:11book what was your timeline okay yeah um
52:15so I will say that uh so I started
52:17writing the book um at all of us or none
52:20which um so that was I I started with a
52:22Kickstarter because I I knew to write a
52:25book I would need to do it as a
52:27full-time job and I had a child um so I
52:29did a Kickstarter to help me get started
52:31I work for six more months um but I will
52:35say and I don't think you're going to
52:36have this problem that I got pregnant
52:38and so I and I was very sick with my
52:43child she is fine she is beautiful and
52:46she is a revolutionary which is a
52:47problem for the authority figure in her
52:50life but I'm very I'm not going to try
52:53to parent her out of it um I so but I uh
52:57so I had a lot of time um I worked on
53:01the book pretty consistently for the
53:04next two years um the uh editing process
53:10publishing process was totally foreign
53:12to me still kind of is and um I to get
53:17the book to sha I had to it had to be
53:21done a year before it was going to
53:23publish um I did not know why but it
53:26made sense once I started going through
53:28the process because um Shane and I went
53:30through an editing process and then I
53:31went through another editing process and
53:33I went through a production process got
53:34permissions from all of the um got
53:38permissions from all the artists um I
53:41started uh getting endorsements and and
53:43actually a really interesting part of
53:44that process and I'm really um fortunate
53:47that that that NAB published this
53:49because um Victoria law um was is one of
53:53my endorsers and she said I would love
53:55to endorse this this book but I have a
53:57big problem with the Atlanta chapter and
53:58we kind of talked about cop City and
54:00what's going on there and I made a
54:02revision and NAB let me put in revision
54:05um and so that process was really
54:07interesting we had a sensitivity reader
54:09because Shaya and I acknowledged that
54:11we're both white women and um and I
54:13wanted someone who um was black to read
54:17the book um so that was an interesting
54:20process so that whole process took a
54:22year um writing the book took two but
54:26again um I had I had some I had some
54:30downtime I was like waddling up to
54:32interviews um and but so so yeah that
54:36that's what it was like for me MH don't
54:40get
54:43pregnant hi um so as as U someone who's
54:48very interested in reporting on
54:49marginalized Andor press groups of
54:51people um as someone who is a woman uh
54:55is white presenting of course um and I
54:58know you mentioned that you know having
55:01like you know having an approach of
55:03learning and also um you know listening
55:06is one approach uh having skin in the
55:08game is one what are other like
55:10practical ways or any advice you'd give
55:12to someone who's also a woman who's also
55:15white presenting in a way um going into
55:18these groups and doing these this
55:20reporting with care and um you know
55:23doing them Justice yeah uh my first
55:26first advice would be to go into the
55:28groups um all these organizations have
55:30monthly meetings they're usually
55:32membership meetings um some of them are
55:34virtual they're constantly holding
55:37panels um and I would go to those with
55:41open ears I would talk to people
55:43afterwards about who you should be
55:45reading um I got my revolutionary
55:49education from Ken Oliver um who is
55:52formally incarcerated and read every
55:55book on the shelf when he was in the
55:58Pelican Bayo cuz that's what he had lots
56:00of time and so um I would find out like
56:05who you should be reading um do some
56:07research on your own about kind of
56:09what's out there um but be in there just
56:12be in the rooms I think like for
56:17me it was important for me to just be in
56:19the room and to not to not necessarily
56:22say well not necessarily I just didn't
56:24say anything you know just to be there
56:26to listen to know that they have someone
56:28who's willing to listen to them rather
56:30than talk at them um I think goes a long
56:34way people just want to be heard um and
56:36so that would be my suggestion is if
56:40you're covering a community see what
56:41sort of community meetings they have um
56:44see where they get together when they
56:45get together and then just be
56:49there um so thank you all so much for
56:53coming and listening today I really
56:55encourage all of you to pick pick up a
56:56copy of reimagining the Revolution um so
56:59many really important ideas represented
57:03in this book um Paula I'm so happy to
57:07have been able to speak with you after
57:09working with you um yeah thank you thank
57:12you for taking a chance on me it was a
57:22pleasure oh

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This page contains the full transcript of UC Berkeley Author Talk: Paula Lehman-Ewing ('10) and Shayna Keyles by Reimagining the Revolution, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 9,052 words across 1,269 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

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