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Turning Aircraft Problems Into Engineered Solutions | Ryan Hader - Part II - Ep 119 — Transcript

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0:00And in this particular instance, what
0:01happened was there's a can of Coke that
0:03flew out, rolled underneath the
0:04collective, and the helicopter had to do
0:06emergency landing all because a can of
0:08Coke rolled rolled underneath the flight
0:10controls. And that's And that's exactly
0:12the point I'm making, David, is is that
0:13these are the instances that you you
0:15have to consider. It was a real bulletin
0:17that was issued to Transport Canada.
0:19Another operator had installed a coffee
0:21cup on a on a pilot seat, and Airbus
0:24issued that it's not allowed. So, now
0:25you've got to you've got to dynamically
0:27test a seat, which starts at, you know,
0:29$60,000 plus the cost of purchasing a a
0:32seat, so you can dynamically test it.
0:35So, now you've turned a 50-cent 3D
0:36printed coffee cup holder into a
0:38$200,000 project, you know,
0:40congratulations.
0:41>> Thank you to this episode's sponsors,
0:43Vertical Aviation International and
0:46Airbus.
0:48Welcome to the Vertical MRO podcast,
0:51where we dive into the world of
0:52helicopter maintenance, repair, and
0:54overhaul.
0:55In each episode, we talk with the
0:56technicians, engineers, and experts who
0:59keep helicopters flying.
1:01Because at the end of the day, no
1:02maintenance, no mission.
1:08Welcome to part two of our conversation.
1:10If you missed part one, you can find it
1:12in our previous episode.
1:14>> [laughter]
1:14>> Yeah, yeah. And And this is this is the
1:16the part that gets me, right? Like
1:18there's so many things that we'd like to
1:19be able to do that,
1:21you know,
1:22look, with AC 43-13
1:26and some sheet metal, I could probably
1:28look after it.
1:30But then all of this
1:32>> Holy crap, hold on.
1:33>> Yeah, and again, I mean, I
1:35>> like a lot, and it and it seems like a
1:37like a To me, it seems like a
1:40a big I don't know. I get it. There's
1:41legalities. There's all the engineering
1:44testing. I mean, all of that stuff,
1:46they've got a point, for sure. How is it
1:49How is it going to affect all of these
1:51things? But then, you know,
1:54uh uh can't we just Can't we just get
1:56coffee cup holder, please? Without it
1:59costing $200,000.
2:01Right? So,
2:03>> I mean there are absolutely ways you can
2:06you can design a around that, you know,
2:08maybe let's not put it on the seat in
2:10this case. Now we're
2:11we're keeping our Airbuses of the world
2:13happy. You know, you can do we make it
2:16we make it of a nonflammable material?
2:18Sure, perfect.
2:20You know, you can still potentially use
2:22a screw to install it.
2:24>> [snorts]
2:24>> You know, put it in an area where you're
2:26not affecting you know, major compliance
2:30issues and and then
2:32you know, you can you can likely bring
2:34it into your minor category where now
2:38entity like us can say, "Okay, there's
2:40no flammability, there's no structural
2:42concern, there's no real pilot operator
2:45safety concern. It's fine. You can sign
2:47this off as a minor." That could happen.
2:49Now we've said we've looked at this. We
2:51still have to document it internally.
2:53So, we still have to create those those
2:54compliance
2:56things that we've looked at, but we
2:57don't have to go through the same STC
2:59process. I was only only touching on
3:01that one as because we had brought up
3:03the the minor and STC clarification. We
3:05should probably roll into a major STC
3:09>> [laughter]
3:10>> discussion because it involves the same
3:12same thing, but
3:13I was just highlighting some of those
3:15compliance details that you know, most
3:16people many people would would ask about
3:19and maybe not not necessarily see the
3:22you know, full compliance issues that
3:24you you can you can get into on some of
3:26those. Painted adhesives, I mean those
3:28are all similar ones that they come up
3:29all the time about you know, minor
3:32versus versus major. And then the other
3:34thing we have to deal with is minor
3:35versus major in the certification world
3:37also has a another meaning in minor
3:40versus major in in the maintenance
3:41world. And those are two completely
3:43separate
3:44classifications that have the same
3:46terminology which comes up
3:48with confusion uh, regularly.
3:51>> Yeah, I think we could sort of take the
3:54the conversation in in two directions
3:56from here, Ryan. So, I'll I'll sort of
3:58leave it to yourself which which makes
4:00the most sense in this case, but I think
4:03like you're saying, we can talk about
4:05something that is a bit more substantial
4:07here. I know with IAROS work previously
4:10and also the types of requests that you
4:12guys are getting, uh, and we've
4:14established more than a foundation to
4:16dig into some of these conversations and
4:18some real-world examples behind them.
4:20Um, so easy for someone to see the
4:22finished STC,
4:24uh, but where did how did you get there
4:26for something like the EO or IR cameras,
4:30medical interiors like I had mentioned
4:32earlier, or we could even expand this
4:34conversation to something that is, uh, a
4:36bit more involved from the perspective
4:38of something like lithium-ion batteries
4:40or uh, CVRs, cockpit voice recorder
4:43systems that have even more dynamics
4:47going on with the level of integration
4:50that we're talking about on the aircraft
4:52itself. I think we I'd like us to make
4:55sure that we have some time to touch on
4:57uh, the international aspect that you
5:00can have aircraft showing up in Canada
5:02that have equipment on them. Uh, I
5:04definitely want us to touch on that
5:05point still, but I think there's
5:06something to be said when we're talking
5:08about uh, the level of integration of
5:11interiors, cameras, uh, and then the
5:13problems or the the situations that you
5:15have to address for something like a an
5:18lithium-ion battery or a cockpit voice
5:19recorder.
5:21>> Yeah, no, all all great topics. Um,
5:23let's uh, maybe roll into EOIR um,
5:26modifications a bit cuz those are
5:28absolutely in interesting topics and
5:30quite involved from all aspects. Uh,
5:32certification is uh, of course.
5:35Um, but something like that,
5:37again, we do develop our own products.
5:40We do do have a number of our own camera
5:44mount systems, um,
5:46whether that be retractable elevators.
5:49We have our own arms system, we call it,
5:52uh, which is a retractable mount system.
5:55And we we we have our cantilevered
5:57mounts as well as a vertical, uh,
6:00elevator lift. Um, so those are can be
6:04covert operations. We do work with some,
6:06uh, covert military and and law
6:08enforcement aspects.
6:10Um, they do prefer to have, uh, remove
6:12or retractable, uh, EO/IR systems. We do
6:16have fixed mount systems. Um, we are
6:20you know, this we're working on an
6:21aircraft right now where we are doing a,
6:23um,
6:24emission system on a King Air. It is a,
6:27uh, heavily involved, um,
6:28you know, full cabinet interior modded,
6:31um, elevator system, radar systems
6:33mounted on the belly with a large, uh,
6:36pod radar pod on the mounted on the
6:38belly, a number of antennas mounted, uh,
6:42around the aircraft. Um, and that is a
6:44highly involved program from
6:48installation aspects, certification,
6:50design, from a flight test perspective,
6:52you know, we're looking at buffeting,
6:54we're looking at performance.
6:56Um, you know, from a design perspective,
6:59obviously, we're looking at, uh,
7:00strength and structures. On the cabinet
7:02interior side, you know, full
7:04[clears throat] cabin, uh, operator
7:05systems, um, display systems, radios,
7:08and something like that. You know, we
7:10largely have a number of our own
7:12products that the customer approaches us
7:15and says, "Hey, we need to, uh, you
7:16know, again, get to this end and goal
7:19here." Starting starting with this, you
7:21know, aircraft that has nothing on it.
7:23Um, we have an aircraft, uh, or we are
7:26getting our aircraft delivered from
7:27Textron, and we need you to work with
7:30Textron and figure out, you know, how to
7:32get to this this this end goal over
7:34here.
7:35All of all of those scenarios happen.
7:37This one happened to be a Textron
7:38delivered aircraft, and we are working
7:40with Textron to bring the aircraft to
7:42what the where the customer wants it and
7:44and Textron is giving us basically the
7:46base shell and we are there now where
7:48the aircraft is fully populated and and
7:51we are into our testing phase.
7:54>> Wow.
7:54>> Yeah, and in order to get there, I mean
7:56we are going through design. So, we're
7:57going through you know basic straight
7:59rate from placements of where we're
8:00going to put stuff. You know, so that
8:02involves you know going down to see the
8:03aircraft, going doing completing a site
8:06survey, you know, removing panels,
8:08looking for wiring, looking for spaces,
8:10working with Textron, going through
8:12drawings, and then coming up with the
8:14structural aspects that each specific
8:16location needs to sustain.
8:19Um you know, on the external side of
8:21side of things is much different from
8:22the internal cabin side of things where
8:24you need to maintain, you know, a heavy
8:26crash loading whereas the external side
8:28is a little different. Um you have your
8:30your aerodynamic loads are are more of a
8:32concern than your your crash loading
8:35aspects whereas in the cabin, you don't
8:37have those aerodynamic loads, you've got
8:38the crash loading aspects. So, all those
8:40are parameters that we have to we have
8:41to go through.
8:42Um
8:43again, it starts with design and
8:44location and then it gets to what
8:46structure we're using, you know, how's
8:47it being installed, what hardware. And
8:50then you you know, within that, you need
8:52to you need to keep in mind your your
8:54electrical parameters. You know, what
8:55are we into what equipment are we close
8:57to? Is this an electrical item? Is it
8:59EMI interference? What shielding do we
9:01need to need to have? What what um
9:03separation distances do do we need? You
9:06know, what's on antennas I'm thinking,
9:08you know, they need to be mounted on a
9:10flat surface. Can they be mounted on,
9:12you know, the curvature? No, oh crap.
9:15Okay, now we need to look at where where
9:16those need to be moved to. All of this
9:18comes into place. You know, is
9:20is the structure there to support it?
9:22No, okay, well now we need to add
9:24structure there. And then once
9:25everything's built up and and and
9:27finished, um then we get into the
9:29testing phase. Now you've got your your
9:32electrical functional test, you have
9:34electrical EMI testing at a minimum. Um
9:37and then if you got external devices, um
9:39well now you've got potential
9:41performance aspects you need to look at
9:43for flight testing.
9:45Um so you're going to do a flight test.
9:46Now you're going to do a you know, a
9:48basic flight test to confirm performance
9:51parameters, any any alterations you
9:53might want to make. You may end up
9:55reducing your
9:57your VNE speed. Taking a hit on your VNE
10:00speed is quite common, especially in in
10:02large
10:04exterior modifications. Um or you're
10:06going to reduce both or
10:08multiple, your VNE speed, cruise speed,
10:11maneuvering speed, and and you're going
10:13to confirm all of those design
10:14parameters, flight speed parameters, and
10:16you're going to include any resolution
10:18or limitations in
10:20in a
10:21flight supplement, flight manual
10:23supplement.
10:24Um that is that the operator is then
10:25going to fly to.
10:27>> Holly, is there
10:28a practical sort of piece that would be
10:31helpful from an understanding
10:33perspective? I'm thinking also for
10:35the early maintainer that's trying to
10:37wrap their head around STC, and what do
10:41they need to know going into the field
10:44or what context, right? Ryan has
10:46provided such a a foundation
10:48understanding here for STC. When you're
10:51looking at it from the lens on on the
10:53ground as a maintainer or trying to help
10:55the younger maintainer understand this
10:57STC process, what what would you have
11:00them keep in mind?
11:03>> Um for the early maintainer or early
11:07STC operator?
11:09>> Yeah, I would say yeah, the early
11:10maintainer would would be something that
11:13I'm I'm intrigued with. We have a lot of
11:15students that will be at Kelowna, so
11:17you'll get an opportunity, Ryan, you're
11:18joining us out in in Kelowna exciting
11:21for the MRO conference. There there's
11:24going to be an opportunity there for
11:26these
11:28these young maintainers to dig that a
11:30bit deeper, a better understanding of
11:32STC and the practical real world side of
11:34it besides just the theory that they're
11:37that they're being being taught in in
11:39the class.
11:43>> Thanks to our sponsor Airbus. Airbus
11:46provides the most efficient helicopter
11:48solutions to its customers who serve,
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11:53passengers in demanding environments.
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11:59missions possible. Visit airbus.com for
12:02more information.
12:05>> Perhaps.
12:06>> Sure. I mean, we've touched on cost a
12:09little bit and and
12:10um the one thing that
12:13and the costs are are I would say having
12:15a bit of an impact on our general
12:17aviation industry
12:19um and and that your your basic GA
12:22aircraft owner for 23, you know, Cessna
12:25172s of the world, you're not going to
12:27spend $200,000 on putting in a a coffee
12:30cup holder. You know, I don't think
12:32anyone would, but um
12:33you see the point. You know, but it it
12:35it it it's kind of affecting that
12:37industry I would say almost negatively
12:40um because
12:42the reality is is that um just because
12:45it's a general aviation aircraft
12:47uh does not mean that your your STC um
12:50process is any different. It isn't,
12:52unfortunately. Some of the FAR 23
12:55requirements are a little lighter.
12:57They're not as heavy of an aircraft,
12:58you're not flying as fast, and generally
13:00not flying as high.
13:02Um there So, there are some you know,
13:06differences that do do make the process
13:08a little lighter
13:10um not necessarily simpler, but lighter
13:12um and and potentially not as much work,
13:13so it does reduce the costs a little bit
13:16on some of your your GA items. However,
13:19um the process is again is still the
13:21same, but your first step would be to
13:23basically work with an entity like
13:24ourselves. What is it you need to do?
13:27What is it that is in STC um mandatory
13:30compliance? What is potentially
13:33a minor or AC 4313
13:36applicable? And really have an
13:39understanding of what those differences
13:42are and and and I mean ultimately, you
13:45know, work with somebody. It's like
13:47finding a good car mechanic.
13:49>> [laughter]
13:50>> Yeah, that's tough to do.
13:52>> That's tough to do these days. Tougher
13:54and tougher.
13:55>> Yeah, and I think
13:57we're also interested in maybe figuring
14:01out a little bit of what do you put into
14:03this in the STC in terms of continuing
14:08maintenance? Like how do you come up
14:10with your
14:12maintenance schedule? What what factors
14:14are involved in coming up with well,
14:17maybe we need it needs a 25-hour
14:21check of whatever. What
14:24how does that that wrap into the final
14:27STC? How do you how do you go about
14:31providing continuing airworthiness
14:34parameters that I get to deal with on my
14:37end of things or the young guys in the
14:39on the maintaining side get to deal with
14:40and you know, not necessarily a general
14:42aviation
14:44standpoint, but all of it. Like you
14:47could have a guy fresh out of maintain
14:48like AME school that
14:51goes and works on one of your machines
14:53that's got a EOL system on it and all of
14:56that. What should they be understanding
15:00about the ongoing maintenance?
15:03>> It's a good point from
15:05and to clarify, I guess with any STC
15:08package, you you you will be or really
15:12should be receiving, you know, your
15:13installation instructions or drawing
15:16parameters.
15:18And FMS for operations which is really,
15:22you know, pilot operations, anything
15:23that the pilot needs to be be aware of.
15:26Um and then your your maintenance
15:27aspect, so your continued airworthiness.
15:30So you're you're going to get an ICA uh
15:32documentation
15:33um that is going to outline continued
15:36airworthiness and maintenance aspects.
15:38So your scheduled maintenance, any
15:41airworthiness or any limitations for
15:44inspection uh parameters, whether it be
15:46um you know, eddy current inspections,
15:49um LPI, NDT style inspections, what your
15:53your schedule time frame is going to be
15:55for it. Can be every 250 hours, every
15:58600 hours, annually, you know, so on and
16:01so on.
16:01>> Yeah.
16:02>> Um so all those parameters um will be
16:05provided. Um
16:06and if they are not, I mean, you you you
16:08absolutely need to be need to have them.
16:11Um and you have a right to to ask for
16:14them to any um certification entity. So
16:17if it's somebody like us that's uh
16:19provided that and you don't have them,
16:21uh and the aircraft was purchased and it
16:24was um included on that that aircraft.
16:27This come This happens from time to
16:28time, obviously. Somebody will purchase
16:29an aircraft, they've got an existing STC
16:31on it. The new uh owner no longer has
16:34the original documentation. They they
16:36should be reaching out to make sure that
16:38they have the updated um STC
16:40documentation uh for all those reasons
16:43you're you're you're highlighting,
16:44Howie.
16:44>> And and how often do you find like So
16:47from uh STC creation, you guys do all
16:52the fancy math and computer simulations
16:56and all that to come up with, you know,
16:58this is all the
16:59>> Those are the ones we're going to see.
17:00>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and darts, right?
17:02Oh, that's a uh we'll look at that every
17:0520 hours. Nice.
17:07So from your point of view, uh
17:10an STC gets uh created,
17:13you do all the the fancy math and
17:15computer work to determine uh
17:18and and actual, you know, physical
17:20testing, smashing that
17:22>> [clears throat and cough]
17:22>> $20,000 seat for a
17:25$10 coffee cup holder.
17:27We do all of that to determine that this
17:28is okay to go, and this is the
17:30inspection inspection schedule that we
17:33are going to follow.
17:3410 years down the road, how are we
17:36doing? Do you get uh do you ever get
17:38feedback like, "Ah, maybe we want to
17:40look at that more often." Or, "Hey, hey,
17:43that was doing really well. Let's bump
17:45that out."
17:46>> Um another good question, Howie. You're
17:48you're all over this. I like it.
17:50>> [laughter and clears throat]
17:51>> This is why we bring him on, right?
17:55>> Um yeah, good question. And it does
17:58happen that we do get feedback. We
18:00obviously have a number of our products
18:02that have been out there for 10, 15
18:04years now,
18:05and do have a number of flight hours
18:08excuse me, on them
18:10or on the product or on the you know,
18:12installed cabin cabin system. For the
18:14most part, I would say that
18:17we're we're going to be pretty good at
18:20seeing seeing into the future. I always
18:22tell people I've got a crystal ball.
18:24Um but with with the math
18:26>> more than
18:27>> Yeah, exactly. That we
18:29we put into place. It is generally, you
18:32know, it is intended to maintain that
18:35for 10 years, obviously. Right? That's
18:37the intent. You know, are there
18:39improvements that can be made over time?
18:42Well, absolutely. So, one of the things
18:44that that we we do, especially with the
18:46customers that we work with quite
18:47frequently, is we make sure that we are
18:49getting feedback. You know, what are you
18:51know, no
18:52one of the things the customers always
18:53tell me is or operators tell us is no no
18:56no news is good news. But, I always like
18:59to try to you know, we work with a
19:00number of heavy medical operators and
19:03law enforcement, and we keep in good
19:04contact with them. And
19:06regularly reach out to them, and you
19:07know, how is this working? You know,
19:09your iPad holders, we got some
19:10retractable iPad holders. You push a
19:12button, it does
19:13some fancy movements, comes out and
19:15says, "Hey, here I am." You know, so but
19:17you've got movable components. You've
19:19got shock mounts in there for isolating
19:21vibration,
19:23especially in heavy rotor frames. You
19:25know, so you got parts that are going to
19:26wear. You know, is it what we expected?
19:28Most of the time it it's it's it is. You
19:31know, are there other things? Yes, there
19:33can be. Are those things that we we
19:35potentially saw as as items down the
19:37road? Most of the time again,
19:39absolutely. Um in some cases, yes,
19:42[clears throat] there's going to be
19:42items that okay, well,
19:44this is going to need to be replaced.
19:46Let's increase material or or change
19:48material on that for lower wear, lower
19:50friction. You know,
19:52you know, let's change the inspection
19:54schedule to include to look at this
19:55piece of hardware or this piece of
19:57slider or add some grease here. Those
19:59sorts of evolution of a maintenance
20:03program
20:04should absolutely happen, I would say.
20:08And it's not because any any company
20:10necessarily didn't didn't see it from
20:12the beginning. Obviously, that happens
20:13from time to time. You'll open up the
20:15>> The real real life has a way of being
20:18slightly weirder than we predict, right?
20:23>> I absolutely. And I mean, every now and
20:24then you'll open up a maintenance manual
20:26or an ICA and and say, "How were they
20:28thinking? You know, check this? It's
20:30There's a million other things to do
20:31this thing."
20:32You know, and obviously
20:34>> Every
20:35>> [laughter]
20:36>> Nine out of 10 times maybe, yeah.
20:38>> Yeah, that sounds about
20:39>> Um so, one thing
20:42that I try to really encourage here is
20:45that we we don't be that nine out of 10
20:48times and that and that you're going to
20:50go over and above and in the maintenance
20:52manual should be, you know, think of all
20:54of the things that can't happen cuz
20:56somebody it will happen.
20:57>> Hell, yeah.
20:58>> Yeah, and so we do that quite quite
21:00often, quite a lot. And we do work with
21:02again some very public operators and and
21:05the maintenance schedules. You need to
21:07be thinking of all the things that uh
21:10don't do that, you know, but put that in
21:12there because they're going to do that,
21:13you know, don't stick your finger in the
21:15outlet because it's going to happen.
21:21>> [laughter]
21:28>> Most operators are not, you know,
21:29sticking forks into electrical sockets
21:31and you don't need to make them aware of
21:33that, but you need to make the part or
21:36the product operation as functional as
21:38possible and as maintenance maintenance
21:40friendly. You need to be thinking about
21:4210 years down the road. What is what is
21:44what is going to be happening and that
21:46that that does need to go into the
21:47maintenance program. It is a living
21:50document to degree absolutely.
21:52>> Yeah, nice. Fork into an electrical
21:55outlet. I didn't remember telling you
21:56that story of my childhood. Yeah.
21:59>> [laughter]
21:59>> Well, I'm about the same same generation
22:02I think so I did it too, Howie.
22:04>> [laughter]
22:05>> What's your
22:07what's your spread
22:09aircrafts
22:11new generation that stuff that you're
22:13you know, is is new aircraft new Airbus
22:16stuff that's coming out that you're
22:17doing brand new
22:19medical interiors for
22:22versus hey, I've got this 30-year-old
22:26machine that now needs to perform a new
22:30job that it wasn't originally sort of
22:32designed they didn't even know about
22:34back in the day and now we want to do a
22:36thing. Do you do you get a lot of
22:38widespread
22:40new versus old
22:42machines to work on?
22:46>> Verticon, it's the event of the year and
22:49it's coming up. This year we're looking
22:51at 600 companies, 15,000 attendees and
22:54cutting edge of vertical aviation
22:56technology all under one single roof.
22:59I'm being told that there's going to be
23:00some new [music] exciting things on the
23:02show floor. So, you're not going to want
23:04to miss it. And it's all happening at my
23:06favorite spot, Anaheim. Great
23:08restaurants. It's honestly one of my
23:10favorite expo spots. You should be
23:12joining us for the world's largest
23:14vertical aviation trade show and
23:16conference, Verticon, powered by VAI.
23:19Register now at verticon.org.
23:23>> Oh, yes, 1,000%. I mean,
23:26we are certified for every category, not
23:30uh so for 23, 25, 27, 29. So, normal
23:34category helicopters, heavy category,
23:36rotary.
23:38Same for fixed-wing.
23:39Um so, GA aircraft and, you know,
23:42commercial heavy heavy aircraft. And
23:44then, that spectrum is is is quite quite
23:47wide. I mean, so I mean, you touched on
23:49a little bit, David. I mean, we'll do
23:50everything from, you know, CVR, CVFDR
23:54installations, with rips, with
23:57you know, lithium-ion battery
23:58installations, to full EOR camera under
24:02tractable sensor installations with a
24:04full operator system. And we'll work on
24:07412s. We work on a lot of 412s, you
24:09know. We help with the the firefighting
24:12programs quite a bit. We work on, you
24:14know, 206s, Bell 206s, uh just Cessna
24:17206s,
24:18you [laughter] know.
24:19Um 747s, 777s. It's
24:22uh it is a a wide uh range and a mix of
24:25items. Again, our niche a little bit is
24:29the um the mission category or essential
24:32service systems. Then again, you're you
24:35know, your medical operators, law
24:37enforcement, military. So, we we deal a
24:39lot with a lot of those aircraft. Those
24:42are your King Airs, uh Cessna Caravans,
24:45to your Twin Otters, to um
24:47Leonardo helicopters, to Airbus
24:49helicopters, to your Bells, Sikorskys,
24:53um
24:54probably miss
24:55>> So, what would you say, Ryan?
24:57Yeah, so would you say
24:59further to Holly's point then, with that
25:01wide spectrum, you are genuinely still
25:04seeing older airframes coming in that
25:06are in those those categories that are
25:09are requiring the work. It's not just
25:11stuff that's coming off of Textron's
25:13line that is is meeting this work.
25:15Clearly, the a Bell airframe, to how he
25:18can attest to, is still out there
25:21slogging in the bush doing the work, and
25:23next thing you know, there's the next
25:25piece of
25:26technology that can be applied to it,
25:27right? So.
25:29>> Absolutely. I mean, one of the things
25:30that we've done with the 412 itself is
25:32that we've brought it out of the, you
25:33know, legacy era. We have a full glass
25:36cockpit upgrade for the 412 and
25:39autopilot upgrade with nice
25:42displays, PFD displays, primary displays
25:45in in the cockpit,
25:47which we've done for a number of the
25:48412s across across Canada. I think it's
25:52a few in stateside as well.
25:54And we we do see a lot of that,
25:56especially with helicopters, with
25:58helicopters being a little bit more
26:00maintenance heavy maybe cost-wise, that
26:03we do see, you know, especially the low
26:05hour rotary airframes get brought in,
26:08and they'll they'll strip them down and
26:10and do a whole upgrade, bring it out of
26:12the legacy era into into today's
26:15technology, and and it's that that's
26:17quite common. We do work again work a
26:19lot with the stuff that comes off the
26:21line, you know, whether it's Airbus or
26:22Leonardo,
26:24or your fixed wing applications as well.
26:28All of all of the above, yeah.
26:30>> I'll be interested Howie in this
26:32section, any real-world experiences or
26:35airframes that you've had to touch in
26:37this capacity where it's an
26:39international question. We had alluded
26:41to it earlier. Not every airframe, Bell
26:44airframe, or Airbus airframe
26:47that suddenly makes its way over to
26:49Canada or into the States, has been
26:52there the entire time. And as a function
26:54of that, if I'm an operator buying that
26:56helicopter from another country, it may
26:58or may not already have equipment or
27:00modifications installed on it. And
27:02everything may be perfectly at legal
27:04where that aircraft was operating, but
27:06what do I
27:08as whether be the maintainer that's
27:09assisting that owner or the owner
27:12themselves, what do I need to be looking
27:14before bringing that aircraft home?
27:16We do not want to be caught out with it
27:18sitting here in Canada and now trying to
27:21figure that all out. So, what can happen
27:23if we discover some of those
27:24modifications or approvals ahead of time
27:27and how can we sort of navigate that
27:30process or or what experience have you
27:32had Ryan or or Howie in any of these
27:34processes in the past?
27:37>> Many, many experiences.
27:41>> Well, happy to hear them. Happy to share
27:43them. Don't have to name names, but
27:45yeah, it's I'm sure it's not a
27:48it's not a limited or it's not a rare
27:50thing to have happened within aviation.
27:52These airframes have a habit of of
27:54moving around and across borders and
27:56change registrations quite often.
27:59>> Mhm.
28:00It's a it's a common thing. Feel free to
28:03jump in and out anything as I go here
28:04Howie, both of you. But um
28:07um I'll start with the importing into
28:09Canada.
28:11Um so, that is one that obviously comes
28:13up quite quite a bit and
28:16um
28:17every time that we get involved,
28:19obviously it's because there's an issue.
28:21Um so, the main thing is is you you need
28:25to do your due diligence and you need to
28:27fully understand anything that's that's
28:30been applied to to that aircraft,
28:34whether they consider it a and then what
28:37digress a little bit. Um we do have a
28:39bilateral with the FAA, which is
28:42intended to make things easier. Does it
28:45always? No. Can it be ignored?
28:47Absolutely. Can Transport deny
28:50acceptance of the bilateral? Of course
28:52they can.
28:53And likewise for for FAA and other
28:55regulatory bodies.
28:57So one that happens quite commonly
28:59with coming from the FAA is that the FAA
29:03has
29:04what is known as the field approval,
29:07which
29:08we we in Canada do not have. We do have
29:12our minor approval, but is not is not
29:15identical to
29:17the the FAA field approval and the FAA
29:20field approval is not accepted under
29:23Transport Canada.
29:24So if you go and buy a an aircraft that
29:28has field approval on it, let's say it's
29:31got 20 field approvals and this has
29:32recently happened. I think actually it
29:34was 42 field approvals.
29:37Transport Canada and you buy the
29:39aircraft, you get a permit to fly to
29:40Canada, you'll fly to Canada and
29:43Transport Canada will say great. It's
29:45not moving for a very long time. And
29:47then they will force you to go through
29:49every single one of those field
29:51approvals and confirm or deny whether
29:54it's acceptable or not. And then
29:55Transport Canada has the the ability or
29:58authority to say that we don't agree
30:01with you know half those field
30:02approvals, we're not going to accept
30:03them at face value. You are going to
30:06have to now either A, your cheapest is
30:09probably remove those those
30:11modifications or B, you know, obtain
30:14STCs for those modifications.
30:17And so many many cases what happens is
30:19that exact scenario. I get contact
30:21contacted,
30:23the customer says it you know, we don't
30:24know what to do. I'll explain to them
30:27exactly what we just discussed here.
30:29They'll come back and say okay, out of
30:31the list that we have
30:33we're going to remove these these five
30:34just to make it easier. Okay, well now
30:36we're down to 15 that need to be
30:38processed as STCs. And then we'll go
30:40through the STC process for for every
30:42single one of them
30:44unfortunately.
30:45>> No, I was going to say I mean I know it
30:47really depends on on
30:50what it actually is, but
30:53what's what's your
30:55record time for fast and slow
30:59for ever having done that on machines?
31:02Like I can imagine that that is a long
31:04process. You buy a machine, it comes in,
31:07oh crap, we got to do STCs for all this
31:09stuff. Like is this months, years? What
31:12what's your typical workflow there?
31:16>> I mean it's typically, you know, several
31:19months, two to three months I would say
31:20depending on what it is.
31:22Um it is it is frustrating
31:26for me
31:29more so obviously for the operators that
31:31purchased the aircraft. And and you
31:34know, I say quite often rolls
31:36downhill and we're at the bottom.
31:38It is it is problematic because then you
31:41end up with an installation that you
31:42don't necessarily have the full details
31:44on. You don't have the full information
31:46on it. So how can you justify compliance
31:49to that modification without it? Well,
31:51you can't. That's that's, you know,
31:54an oxymoron statement. You can't do
31:56that. So now you need to create that
31:57data and if that creating that data
32:00means that you need to remove that
32:01modification and reinstall it just to
32:03some degree, well, then that's that's
32:05that's the process. How long does it
32:08take you to basically recreate that STC?
32:12It obviously is going to vary with the
32:13complexity of the modification. We did
32:16one recently where they had replaced the
32:19main aircraft battery. It was a valid
32:22aircraft battery, but there was no
32:24documentation on how it had been done.
32:25It was not done via an STC. It was done
32:28via field approval. How they managed to
32:30get that done as a field approval should
32:32not have been done. That was a misuse of
32:33the field approval form or mis
32:36uh approval process in the states and
32:39that is one of the the biggest problems
32:41with some of those
32:43vehicles is that those those vehicles do
32:46get abused. Um and that's one of the
32:48biggest problems with field approvals is
32:51when they come into Canada. Maybe you
32:53can I've seen full aircraft mods with
32:56EOIR sensors called a field approval.
32:59You know,
33:00it's happened. Um you know, the FAA is
33:03aware of those instances or many of
33:05those instances. It is trying to stop
33:06them and that field approval process is
33:09really changing and it is really going
33:10to go away um
33:12to some degree at some point. And the
33:14whole reason that it existed, I'm
33:15digressing a little bit, sorry if David
33:17>> Talk about
33:17>> um is is to assist with a literal field
33:20repairs where somebody cannot get back
33:22to a hangar to do a proper repair or
33:25modification.
33:26>> Right.
33:26>> Well, that obviously rolled into a
33:28misuse of what that is for and that is
33:30why
33:31it can become um a bit of an issue.
33:34And it's similar going the other way. Um
33:37Any questions on that?
33:39>> No, I don't think so. I mean that's
33:41>> comments there?
33:42>> That's sort of what I figured.
33:43>> Yeah, and it's the same with uh I mean
33:45EASA tends to be a little bit
33:47um
33:48better for lack of better word is that
33:51you don't seem to see as much of uh use
33:54misuse of
33:55uh some of the um certification. They're
33:58a little bit more stricter on their
33:59enforcement of how things are done.
34:00>> going to say that's probably because
34:02they're a bit more strict on
34:04>> They apply things. Yeah, uh CASA is a
34:08big is a big problem. We don't have a
34:10bilateral with Australia with CASA in
34:11Australia. Um the CASA certification
34:15regulatory body is a little more lax. Um
34:18there is a bilateral with the FAA to
34:20CASA, but it does cause some issues in
34:22that people will go and purchase an
34:24aircraft come from CASA assuming that
34:26the bilateral to the FAA allows them
34:28with the bilateral in Canada. It it does
34:30not most of the time and many times
34:33those aircraft get grounded for 12 12
34:35months or more before something gets
34:37sorted out and then we generally need to
34:39get involved and then we're dealing with
34:41the customer that's pissed from the
34:42get-go because their aircraft's
34:45grounded, they've just spent millions of
34:46dollars in buying an aircraft now they
34:48found out they need to spend more money
34:50to meet the compliance that was never
34:52done or demob the aircraft or both. So
34:55>> Yeah.
34:56>> They they got the old yeah, nah, it'll
34:58be all right.
34:59>> Yeah, exactly.
35:01>> [laughter]
35:01>> Yeah, that was good Howie.
35:04>> I worked down there and I was just Dave,
35:06hey Dave, hi Dave, how's it going mate?
35:09>> [laughter]
35:11>> I worked with Aussie for most of the
35:13year over in Algeria.
35:15>> Oh wow.
35:15>> his accent quite accurately. [laughter]
35:20There we go. You were taking up all
35:22sorts of time.
35:23>> There's I mean
35:25I I you say that and it comes as
35:29no major surprise.
35:34>> If you're passionate about rotorcraft
35:35maintenance, then [music] be sure to
35:36check out Vertical's new Instagram
35:37channel at vertical.mro.
35:40Sharing all things related to helicopter
35:42maintenance, repair and overhaul.
35:44From the latest podcast episodes to
35:45conference updates and even epic
35:47photography, Vertical MRO's dedicated to
35:49supporting and advancing rotorcraft
35:50maintenance, the backbone of our
35:52industry.
35:55>> Yeah, and then it's sort of like going
35:56the other way. I mean we we do have our
35:58our minor
36:00um certification release and and that
36:02has been flagged
36:04importing aircraft from Canada into the
36:06US.
36:08We've had, you know, both questions and
36:10somebody's applied a minor certification
36:13to an aircraft repair or mod and it
36:17hasn't been ours and they've called us
36:18and said the FAA is not accepting it,
36:20you know, they need more documentation
36:22and and we can go through hopefully go
36:24through and provide the documentation
36:26even if it's not our minor. Uh in some
36:29cases, if it is not our work, then we
36:32would need to potentially recreate some
36:34of that data that FA the FA is
36:36requesting. In another instances
36:38instance, it was our work and uh they
36:42were they were not sure about the
36:44process or the vehicle that had
36:45certified it. And then, you know, but
36:47once they basically reached out to us
36:49and and spoke with us directly and we
36:51provided them all the documentation
36:53through our bilateral our minor um
36:56certification is acceptable to the FAA
37:00and they can accept it. And so
37:01>> Right.
37:01>> in those instances, they did accept it
37:04um that way. I'm just comparing that to
37:06basically the field approval process
37:08going going the other way.
37:09Um so those those instances both both um
37:13obviously happened quite frequently. Uh
37:15in many cases, not if not in many cases,
37:18in some cases, uh Transport Canada will
37:21uh reject the the uh the mod. And
37:24another I guess I guess a a third one
37:25that should we should mention is it
37:27actual STCs. It can be STCed on an
37:30aircraft and not accepted by your
37:32importing and end country. So, quite
37:35commonly, obviously, if you have an FA
37:37STC that is not validated in Canada, we
37:40do not have to accept it. Uh Transport
37:42Canada does not have to accept it and
37:44they will hold that line. Um and we have
37:47we do come into that regularly as well,
37:49even if it's a a factory STC from
37:51Cessna. Um Transport Canada has denied
37:55them. And we we went through one
37:57recently where
37:58they denied us a factory mod because uh
38:01it was an STC, it was not validated in
38:03Canada. Um you know, and in this
38:06instance, uh maybe I'll I'll um digress
38:09a little bit. We went through it and and
38:10Transport Canada was right and and the
38:13modification did not meet the compliance
38:15requirements that uh were happened to be
38:18both Transport Canada and FAA.
38:20>> Oh, I
38:21>> for a while.
38:22>> It had an FAA uh STC to it and so we we
38:25had to redo the modification and add
38:28structural support to this modification
38:30in order to import the aircraft into
38:33Canada. And the customer was
38:35very happy.
38:36>> And so when you're when you're on the
38:39back on the other side of it, when
38:40you're creating an STC, do you find
38:43yourself building and or making
38:46application in Canada only or do you do
38:49like a global sort of application for
38:52all of it?
38:53>> Um you're you're referring to if we want
38:56to obtain like both Canadian and FAA STC
38:59paperwork?
38:59>> Well, yeah, like I got I'm I guess the
39:03answer is probably in
39:05the customer and where they anticipate
39:07operating. But for something, let's say
39:10you've you've designed the STC for this
39:12customer, they're working in the United
39:13States, obviously you're going to get an
39:15STC done for the FAA. You're probably
39:19going to do one for Canada as well. Do
39:22you do another one for EASA or is that
39:25all you leave that until somebody
39:27actually wants it because there's cost
39:28involved and all of that or is there any
39:30time when it's seen as worthwhile to
39:33just get it like I don't know if there's
39:35a blanket coverage globally sort of
39:38thing.
39:39>> Uh there's no blanket coverage. Um a
39:41little bit of mix of all of the above,
39:43Howie. If if we if we have the foresight
39:46that we know it's going to be utilized
39:48in in EASA territory for instance, we
39:51may may push for that if it's a European
39:54helicopter for instance, which has
39:55happened. Leonardo for for instance, you
39:58know, we'll we'll we'll obviously expect
40:00to process the EASA STCs maybe sooner
40:02than later.
40:04But most of the time I would say that
40:06you know, we're going to start with we
40:07have to start with the Canadian STC and
40:10we may have the foresight to want to
40:12validate it uh within the FAA
40:15right away. In some cases,
40:18we'll do that in some cases we'll wait
40:20until you know we have a request to do
40:22so.
40:23>> Wow, Ryan. This has been a great
40:26conversation. We have covered a lot of
40:28ground when it comes to STC and the
40:32processes and the the work that IARO is
40:35doing. I almost think without intending
40:38to
40:39we've put together a pretty good STC 101
40:42with with this podcast. For anyone
40:44listening who might find themselves
40:46dealing with one of these situations,
40:47this hopefully can be a good resource.
40:50And before before we wrap
40:52and
40:53and leave the recording if there is
40:55there anything that we haven't touched
40:56on today or that you wish more owners or
40:59maintainers understood before they got
41:00into that STC process, Ryan, or what you
41:03would like to leave our listeners with?
41:05>> Yeah, the one the one thing that I I do
41:07tell everyone is is contact us.
41:10>> [laughter]
41:11>> And I say that to a little bit tongue in
41:14cheek, but
41:16seriously,
41:17I mean I love the industry, I love
41:19aircraft, I love what we do. Everybody
41:21here I would say is is the same way and
41:24most many operators get into a situation
41:27because they did not contact their
41:31certification buddies.
41:34Part partners, you know, and they should
41:38be because they a lot of them will rely
41:41on what the sales people tell them.
41:43And um
41:45not to speak of sales people, but they
41:47they
41:48want to sell something and they're going
41:49to buy an aircraft or they're going to
41:50buy a product and they're not
41:51necessarily going to know or understand
41:53the certification
41:56liabilities that that the operator owner
41:59is then going to have and then they find
42:00out and it's it's a problem for them.
42:03So, if if you're importing an aircraft,
42:06you know, ask a few questions, you know,
42:07call call me directly. Call and ask what
42:10are the implications of importing this
42:11aircraft or where is it located? Is it
42:13coming from Australia? And I'll look at
42:15the next one.
42:16>> [laughter]
42:16>> Right.
42:16>> I'm kidding. But do do your due
42:18diligence. I mean, that that's that's
42:20that's that's the main thing. It's so
42:21many all of these problems have come out
42:23with people that have not done their
42:25research and and gone through this
42:27process and they assume that Transport
42:29Canada has to import the aircraft. It's
42:31not It's not the case.
42:33>> Yeah, [snorts] I think that's a a good a
42:35good final point to to leave it on
42:37there. And Ryan, we look forward to
42:38seeing you in Kelowna. And uh can
42:40catching up there for the MRO
42:42conference. Howie, you're going to have
42:44a busy time there. Howie's doing a
42:46number of panels as well as a couple of
42:48presentations to on AI of all things.
42:52Howie has a lot of a lot of learning and
42:55experience over the especially the past
42:57year that he's excited to be able to
42:59share with the community, get you uh
43:02more aware, more in use, or better
43:04understand how it can be a tool for our
43:06maintenance community. But Ryan, thank
43:08you so much for for joining us. This was
43:10a great conversation. Really excited
43:11that we were able to finally make it
43:13happen. And who knows, we may end up
43:15having to do an STC part two at some
43:17point.
43:18>> Let's do it. There's a lot of points I
43:20still have here, so
43:21>> [laughter]
43:21>> Yeah, me too.
43:22>> There you go.
43:23>> Amazing, guys. Thank you so much and
43:26we'll we'll talk to you soon.
43:28>> Stand by for a message after a word from
43:29our sponsors.
43:31>> Thanks to our [music] sponsor Airbus.
43:34Airbus provides the most efficient
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43:54>> Vertical, it's the event of the year and
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44:32>> If you're passionate about rotorcraft
44:33maintenance, then be sure to check out
44:34Verticals new Instagram [music] channel
44:36at vertical.mro.
44:38Sharing all things related to helicopter
44:39maintenance, repair, and overhaul.
44:41From the latest podcast episodes to
44:43conference updates, and even epic
44:44photography, Vertical MRO's dedicated to
44:47supporting and advancing rotorcraft
44:48maintenance, the backbone of our
44:50industry.

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