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Truth and Consequence — Transcript

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0:07[Music]
0:09a colleague of mine was at a meeting in
0:11Washington DC and it was a meeting at
0:14the Department of
0:17Justice and he said that during the
0:19presentation they they presented a u
0:23most hated list of like five people in
0:26the country and these are you know
0:28people running the meeting were process
0:30uors prosecutors of child abuse and uh I
0:33was like number two or three on the
0:40list ever since the witch trials both
0:42the ones in Salem and the US and the
0:44European Witch Trials children were
0:46viewed
0:49incredulously they had come to say such
0:52obviously false things and people's
0:55lives were taken in some cases because
0:57of what children told those inquisitions
0:59so for a very long period of time the
1:01law frowned upon having young children
1:04as
1:06witnesses there had been studies of
1:09suggestibility of children's testimony
1:11since the late
1:141800s and they demonstrated the young
1:17kids had particular problems with
1:19suggestibility they were more gullible
1:21they Incorporated suggestions that
1:23adults gave them and it wasn't until the
1:261980s that people started saying you
1:28know we really need to know a lot more
1:29more about kids there haven't been any
1:31studies of kids in 70 or 80 years and
1:34now the floodgates have opened and kids
1:37are coming in
1:38[Music]
1:40court you already know the answer to
1:42this question are children's statements
1:45accurate sometimes they are and
1:46sometimes they're not and you already
1:49know the answer to this as well there
1:50are two ways that a child statement can
1:54be inaccurate they can be inaccurate
1:56because you're lying or they can be
2:00inaccurate because they've come to
2:02believe what they're telling you or
2:04telling the court in my case but they're
2:08wrong I'm going to talk to you this
2:10morning about children's memories and
2:13the various things you can do to uh in
2:16in essence corrupt their
2:19[Music]
2:20memories my whole generation of memory
2:23researchers we were trained in
2:25theoretical laboratory techniques for
2:28studying human memory children's memory
2:31and we thought I think as a group
2:33collectively that we had learned a great
2:35deal about how the human memory system
2:36unfolds in the early years and what got
2:39me into this area I'll never forget it
2:41it was in the early 1980s I got a
2:43telephone call I was here at Cornell at
2:45my desk and a judge from upstate New
2:47York called and he said Professor I was
2:50given your name as someone who studies
2:52children's memory and I have a case in
2:55my court that I need your help
2:58on a young young boy his mother
3:01disappeared when he was 4 years old and
3:05after a few months his father moved from
3:07New York to Florida and left him and a
3:10sibling with a maternal aunt and the
3:13mother was never
3:15located until several years later new
3:19people who had bought the home the boy
3:21lived in were building an addition in
3:23the back of the home and they were
3:24Excavating for the addition to for a
3:27foundation lo and behold they discovered
3:29the skeletal remains of the mother's
3:32body and the corners report indicated
3:35she had died by a blow of a blunt
3:37instrument to the
3:39cranium the aunt who's been now raising
3:42the boy for the past 2 years and didn't
3:45like the dad anyway starts saying to the
3:47boy do you remember your dad ever
3:49hitting your mom with something in the
3:51head and at first the boy doesn't
3:53remember but over time allegedly he
3:55comes to remember a fight between the
3:57mom and the dad and the dad hitting the
4:00mother with a baseball bat in the head
4:02and carrying her body out the back door
4:05so that's how the case got the court and
4:07the judge's question to me was a simple
4:10reasonable question but one I totally
4:13was unable to answer he said should I
4:15believe the kid here I thought gee you
4:18know we've learned so much about how
4:19memory works and I don't have a clue
4:22what the answer
4:23is and it bothered me bothered me a
4:26great deal that I had spent all these
4:28years
4:30in the lab both reading and developing
4:32theories of memory and here's this
4:34perfectly reasonable question that I
4:37can't
4:40answer I think if you ask me how did
4:43that mother die I would say the father
4:45killed her but if you told me that the
4:48only evidence of that was a six-year-old
4:50boy's resurrected memory of it I
4:53wouldn't be impressed by
4:56that okay now I want you to take in your
4:59head the number number
5:00two can you visualize that number two
5:02and I want you to square it now take
5:05that number and square
5:08it now take that number and multiply it
5:12by
5:15four okay you got that you multiplied it
5:18by four think of a
5:20vegetable first vegetable comes to mind
5:24can you see it okay good when I used to
5:27teach uh developmental psychology at
5:29Cornell to large classes like 300
5:32students I would just say to them take
5:35out a piece of paper and pencil and
5:36write down the first vegetable comes to
5:38mind and the first vegetable is corn
5:40that's the most popular vegetable
5:42followed by potatoes onions broccoli Etc
5:45that's not true in this room in this
5:47room the first vegetable came to your
5:50mind was
5:52carrot how many of you thought of carrot
5:54first yeah how many of you thought of
5:57corn see
6:00carrot because I tainted your
6:04memory what number did you end up
6:06with yeah what kind of number is
6:10it it's a root number and your Prime
6:13root root and I say
6:16vegetable and you give me a root
6:19vegetable and it was unconscious you
6:23don't believe me do
6:25you okay you're know better than my
6:29daughter
6:33memory is not some mechanical recording
6:36system like the hard drive on your
6:38computer or a camera it isn't storing
6:41snapshots it's just not how it works it
6:43works at a very abstract level in a way
6:46that allows you to reconstruct a lot of
6:48things and bring it together in a way
6:50that's new and different every time you
6:52retrieve a memory and it's very
6:54responsive to the environment it's very
6:57responsive to the type of questions
7:00you're being asked how suggestive they
7:02are how far apart they're spaced and so
7:04on okay B so I'm going to show you this
7:07movie and the movie is about a grownup
7:09and a little girl playing on a
7:11playground okay it's a really short
7:14movie but try to pay really good
7:16attention to the movie cuz afterwards Cy
7:18does ask you some questions about it and
7:20see what you can remember from the movie
7:21yeah do you think you can remember it
7:24okay let's see they have a very good
7:27memory okay let remember a couple things
7:30from last year last year was a very long
7:33time
7:33[Applause]
7:37away did the grown-up bump into the
7:39little girl uh-uh did the grown-up spill
7:43water on purpose or was it an accident
7:45it was an accident it was an accident
7:47wasn't water it was an accident wasn't
7:49it did the grown-up step on a flower on
7:52purpose or was it an
7:55accident she didn't step on oh she
7:58didn't she didn't
8:01was the grown-up nice or was she mean
8:03nice nice yeah I thought she was nice
8:06did the grownup kicked the soccer ball
8:08on purpose or was it an
8:11[Music]
8:15accident an accident accident could you
8:18make a Mark here so I know that that
8:19one's right a grownup kicked the soccer
8:23ball by
8:26accident most of us who do research on
8:28children's Rec
8:30elections produce research that is used
8:33more by one side than the other in my
8:36case my lab at Cornell primarily
8:39although not exclusively has produced a
8:42stream of research that is easier to use
8:46to create Reasonable Doubt so it's used
8:47by the defense more than the prosecution
8:50I say for the most part because we have
8:52several studies that are much more
8:55favorable to the prosecution
8:57[Music]
9:04I don't care that both sides tell you
9:05that they're interested in arriving at
9:08the truth because they're not they're
9:12interested in winning by the time a
9:16case has been ordained to go to court
9:19that is to say all the plea offers and
9:22pre-trial hearings and all that's over
9:24and there's this subset of cases that
9:26they can't settle and they're going to
9:28go to court and both sides are revved up
9:31and they're going to go to court at that
9:33point both sides want to win truth be
9:36[Music]
9:41damned I personally rarely go into court
9:45as an expert witness I've only done so
9:47three
9:48times the first of these cases was in
9:52Dade County Florida which is Miami and
9:55at the time Janet Reno was the da before
9:58she join the Clinton
10:01Administration and she was Prosecuting a
10:0315-year-old boy his name was Bobby
10:08fine Bobby was a volunteer in a church
10:12run daycare where families would come to
10:16services on a Sunday and they would
10:18leave their children in a part of the
10:20church that ran this daycare operation
10:23while they were in the
10:25service so when he was 12 years old he
10:28was a arrested and he was charged on
10:32multiple counts of sexually molesting
10:34multiple
10:36children even if he did what they were
10:39alleging which I think everyone agreed
10:42including the prosecution he couldn't
10:44have done a lot of what the children
10:46were saying he did it was was it was so
10:49bizarre as to have been
10:51impossible but even if he did some of
10:54what they were saying he's looking at
10:57life without parole if convict him on a
11:00single
11:03[Music]
11:06count the prosecution and the defense
11:09asked me to come in and in fact included
11:11me on a subpoena list and I thought well
11:14maybe my general aversion to testifying
11:17in cases doesn't apply if both sides
11:20want me then I'm sort of like a Friend
11:22of the Court I can go in I can review
11:24the scientific evidence both sides can
11:27choose to use it to whatever extent they
11:29wish F but I won't be a Hired Gun
11:32because both sides want me and I won't
11:33accept a
11:39fee like most cases where you have
11:43multiple allegation Mass allegation in a
11:47like in a daycare case or a school bus
11:49case you get children contaminating
11:53other children with their reports over
11:55time this sort of thing tends to
11:56marinate and grow and so what you end up
12:00with is a
12:02constellation of allegations some of
12:05which are possible even plausible others
12:09of which are
12:14impossible you often get this where you
12:16you have a mixture of things that are
12:18possible with things that are bizarre
12:21and
12:22outrageous and so there's been this you
12:25know debate do you exclude everything a
12:27child says because there's some bizarre
12:30stuff there so therefore do you say that
12:33the plausible stuff couldn't have
12:34happened either a lot of defense
12:37attorneys would like to say that they'd
12:39say well where do you draw the line you
12:41know that a lot of what the child's
12:43telling you is fictitious so how do you
12:46know just because he says something
12:48plausible that that's truthful that's
12:50reasonable doubt and I think that's a
12:53good point but in terms of the research
12:55I can tell you it is possible for kids
12:58to to say some things that are accurate
13:01and some things that are highly
13:02[Music]
13:12inaccurate when I was in Miami being
13:14deposed an argument broke out during the
13:16deposition between the defense and the
13:18prosecution as to the nature of the plea
13:22offer by the prosecution the prosecution
13:25felt that the defense never presented it
13:27to Bobby fer accurately and that's why
13:29he rejected it and the defense argued
13:31that they did present it accurately and
13:34so because both sides had had me on
13:36their list the a resolution sort of
13:39emerged right in the middle of the
13:41deposition the prosecution asked me if I
13:44would go to the jail and meet with Bobby
13:47fer and relay to him exactly what their
13:51plea offer was and the defense agreed
13:54with this
13:56[Music]
14:01I met with Bobby his mother and his
14:03father and I sat down just the four of
14:06us in in Chambers and I relayed
14:10carefully the prosecution's plea
14:14[Music]
14:17bargain if he apologized to the children
14:20and their parents if he accept it
14:23incarceration in a psychiatric ward
14:26until I think it was age 18 so it would
14:28have been about 3 years years if he had
14:30been willing to do community service and
14:33continue with therapy beyond that
14:35there'd be no prison
14:39time Bobby asked me what I thought and I
14:42said Bobby I think there are a lot of
14:45things the kids are saying that are
14:46simply impossible there are some things
14:49that are plausible who knows if they're
14:51truthful or not only you and the
14:53children if you were my son I would take
14:56the plea offer and the reason I told him
14:59that is because while I think it was
15:04predictable that he would beat the
15:06counts that were these bizarre
15:08exaggerated claims I wasn't so confident
15:12that the jury wouldn't throw at least
15:15one bone to the prosecution and say well
15:17maybe when he was diapering the kids or
15:20taking them to the bathroom or something
15:22he didn't touch them inappropriately and
15:24that's all it took because there was no
15:26sentencing discretion in Florida at the
15:28time it his life without parole if he
15:31was
15:33convicted his father pounded his fist on
15:36the table and he said my boy will never
15:40admit to something he didn't do he'd
15:42rather spend his life in prison than
15:45admit to one of those vile acts they're
15:48accusing him of and I said Mr
15:51fine if it were you who are the
15:54defendant I totally respect that but
15:57Bobby's 15 years old
16:00if he goes to prison for life he's going
16:02to be on every inmate's dance card he
16:04was a very um boyish 15 even a feminite
16:1015 and I really thought that they were
16:12rolling the dice and I made it clear I
16:14said look I'm not against you I'm not
16:16for you both sides including yours want
16:19me involved in this uh probably when I
16:22review the evidence it's going to tilt
16:24toward your side so I'm not saying what
16:27I'm saying as as an adversary I'm just
16:30saying if you were my son I wouldn't
16:31roll the
16:42dice so they did not take my advice they
16:46they went deliberately against it and
16:48you know what they were right he got
16:51acquitted on all counts and I was wrong
16:53and I remember his father coming up to
16:55me afterwards saying I'm so glad we
16:58didn't listen to
17:01[Music]
17:10you it was an interesting and an
17:13important developmental experience for
17:15me because in studying closely this case
17:19of this boy Bobby fine I saw a number of
17:23factors at play that are not typically
17:27considered by researchers at least at
17:30that
17:34[Music]
17:38time I came back to my lab and designed
17:42studies that incorporated some of these
17:44factors that were in the F case factors
17:47such as emotional arousal embarrassment
17:51painful experiences you know it's one
17:54thing to say
17:55children are suggestible about other
17:58people
17:59it's another thing to say they're
18:00suggestible about someone torturing them
18:03handcuffing and chaining them and
18:06abusing them and research had never
18:08looked at factors like that but after
18:10this case I started doing
18:15[Music]
18:19so we've known for a long time that
18:21preschool age kids are suggestible but
18:24the question becomes why why are they
18:26suggestible what what's the underlying
18:28mechanism
18:29that drives suggestibility so Sarah
18:31Kowski comes to this Crossing three
18:34different boundaries
18:37memory the law and language and she says
18:42maybe what's going on is that children's
18:45suggestibility is a function of how they
18:49create and remember narratives how good
18:52they are creating cohesive coherent high
18:55volume narratives do you know who's here
18:57today
19:00Miss
19:01Baker I like to bake cookies I love
19:04baking cookies I I I I I help my mom
19:10chocolate cookies well if you made
19:12cookies before you know that you need to
19:13put butter in and butter helps make the
19:16cookie soft and the next thing that I'm
19:19going to add is sugar you're very right
19:23I I have brown sug do you know there's
19:25one more ingredient to put in do you
19:26know what that ingredient is it is
19:29salt so I'm just going to add a
19:32tiny oh oh
19:34no I just added way too much salt to my
19:39cookie dough you know what you all did a
19:42really good job helping me even though I
19:44was so silly so I have some stickers
19:46here would you all like a sticker yeah
19:48okay so everybody can just stay in your
19:50seats and I'll bring you a
19:52sticker and purple for
19:56you I want red you want red all right
19:58can get
20:00it want some
20:02help you got I use suggestibility
20:05promiscuously to refer to any event
20:09either verbal or pictoral it can be
20:13before an experience a child has or
20:15after an experience a child has that
20:17damages a child's report accuracy I
20:20heard that Miss Baker came to your
20:21classroom a while ago is that true Miss
20:24Baker come to see you yeah yeah I
20:27couldn't be her that day but I want to
20:28hear all about what happened when she
20:31came I don't know you don't know that's
20:35okay how about I ask you some questions
20:37okay did she put a sticker on your KNE
20:39man
20:41son no on your forehead we put it there
20:45are you sure cuz I heard that she put it
20:47on your knee no we didn't we can put it
20:50wherever we wanted they just give it to
20:53us oh but the other kids told me that
20:55she put it on your knee no I got to
20:58stick and I put it on my forehead oh V
21:01put it on her nose oh yeah well think
21:05real hard that is are you sure she
21:06didn't put it on your knee no did Miss
21:10Baker put a sticker on your knee are you
21:12sure Manon cuz the other kids told me
21:14that she put a sticker on your knee some
21:16kids did
21:18oh well I want you to think really hard
21:21it's really important to know what
21:22happen did she put a sticker on your
21:25knee did Miss Baker put a sticker on
21:28your knee cut yeah she
21:30did she put a she put a sticker on one
21:35kid's
21:39knee so are you ready I want you to read
21:42the following message and do what it
21:44says are you
21:45ready you got
21:50it got
21:53it got
21:56it got it
22:07[Music]
22:09cut it
22:14no we can
22:20wait got
22:24it got it
22:28[Music]
22:30got
22:32it got
22:35it got
22:42it got
22:45it I lost some of you but those of you I
22:48haven't lost you got
22:51it got
22:53[Music]
22:57it got
22:59[Music]
23:02[Applause]
23:05it
23:07[Applause]
23:10well do you owe me an
23:13apology you
23:18Skeptics I think an aha moment for a lot
23:21of researchers in this area was the
23:24realization that you could move from
23:27suggesting observations and eyewitness
23:30acts like what someone else did to not
23:34someone else but you yourself and within
23:36you something very Salient something
23:38having to do with genital touching I
23:40think that was an aha moment that there
23:42didn't appear to be any boundaries that
23:45Beyond which suggestions didn't take a
23:48toll on kids accuracy of
23:54reporting we were interested in whether
23:56you could take a child who didn't didn't
23:58have an experience at all and lead them
24:01to believe that they did so the mous
24:03Trap study was designed to test that we
24:06took a group of kids whose parents
24:08assured us that they never got their
24:10hands caught in a mouse trap and had to
24:12go to a hospital to get it removed and
24:14we said to the kids did you ever get
24:17your hand caught in a mouse trap and
24:18have to go to the hospital to get it
24:20removed and the kids all said no never
24:23happened don't have a mouse trap at our
24:25house said okay and then we brought them
24:28back a week later we said did you ever
24:30get your hand caught in a mouse trap and
24:32have to go to the hospital to get it
24:33removed and kids would think and they'd
24:35say
24:37h i remember something about a mouse
24:42trap around the 6th 7th 8th week a lot
24:45of kids are saying yeah I remember
24:47something about the mouse trap and
24:48getting my finger caught in it and
24:50they're starting to give you these
24:52embellish narratives about what they
24:54claim happened about how their dad
24:56opened the van door and they put them in
24:58the van and their mother and their
24:59brother and their dad drove them to the
25:01hospital and a nurse took the mouse trp
25:03off and they bandaged his finger and
25:05they they could be quite elaborate in
25:08their in their narratives because we'd
25:11be inducing them to developmental images
25:13of something that didn't happen simply
25:15by asking them week in and week out
25:18think about it close your eyes and think
25:20about it did you ever get your finger
25:22caught in a m
25:26trp so the first time time they close
25:29their eyes and they generate that image
25:30it doesn't match anything in memory the
25:33next week they close their eyes and they
25:35generate that image it does match
25:37something in memory what it matches is
25:39the image they created the week
25:42before young kids in particular have a
25:45really difficult time monitoring the
25:48differences between things that they
25:50imagined versus things they actually saw
25:53because both leave a mental imprint in
25:55memory and that kind of source
25:57discrimination very difficult especially
25:59for preschool kids all of us have a
26:01problem with it adults as well but
26:04preschool kids are particularly uh hurt
26:07by those kind of
26:14techniques I was asked in the mid
26:191990s to testify in a stay of execution
26:22case in El Paso Texas it's mesas versus
26:26people of Texas and Frederico msas was
26:31accused and convicted of murdering
26:35someone in his trailer park and burying
26:38the body in a desert area behind the
26:41trailer park and the critical testimony
26:43was given by a little girl and I
26:46remember the attorney who called and
26:48asked me to testify was someone that was
26:52doing at pro bono from a very large
26:55powerful law firm in America corporate
26:57law firm and he said I know you don't
27:00charge anything and I'm wondering if you
27:02would join us and review for the court
27:04the scientific evidence related to the
27:08statement that the childness case
27:11made the little girl who was the
27:14critical testimony had testified that
27:17she saw the defendant mesas washing
27:20blood off his hands in the bathroom in
27:23his trailer she was there playing with
27:24his daughter that day and physically was
27:28impossible for her to have seen him
27:30washing his hands uh given her testimony
27:33of where she was in the trailer at the
27:35time because of the way the door opened
27:37in rather than opened
27:41out other things she said also I found
27:44very interesting because they were
27:46things we didn't have a lot of research
27:48about so they gave me clues about
27:51studies I should design including the
27:53use of stereotypes this is a little girl
27:56whose mother used to say to her I don't
27:58want you to go to Fred's trailer because
28:01he's a jail bird he's a bad man so the
28:04mother had created this negative
28:06stereotype about this guy and we were
28:08very interested to what extent to
28:11Children start to conform to a
28:12stereotype over
28:14time in that particular case messas was
28:17given a stay of
28:18execution and he had been scheduled to
28:21die by lethal injection in a
28:23week and during the stay there was a
28:26petition for a new trial and and
28:28ultimately he was acquitted and he he
28:30went
28:33free I remember when I returned from
28:36testifying in this uh state of execution
28:38case saying to my lab you know we don't
28:41know very much about the role of
28:42stereotypes so let's design some
28:48studies let me uh show
28:51you a video clip of three children the
28:55first is a three and 1/2 the second is a
28:574 half-year-old and the third is a
29:00six-year-old and they all witnessed the
29:02same event A Man Named Sam came to their
29:04preschool program and they corroborate
29:07each other about certain things that Sam
29:09did when he visited but they also
29:11contradict each other about other things
29:14and I want you to look at these three
29:15kids and what they're saying
29:18[Music]
29:19and imagine you're a juror and you're
29:22listening to
29:24them well I wasn't there that day and I
29:27want to know everything that happened
29:29that day that samstone came to
29:33visit she said be careful with the
29:37dollies and he put it up then then the
29:41dollies some some of them looked off
29:45then he got a book and P it up then then
29:49one of the pages looked off Sam don't do
29:52anything with him there he didn't
29:58he was doing it so fast that he ripped
30:01one of the pages really what about um a
30:06bear teddy bear put some chocolate ice
30:10cream on there he always does thatu
30:14exited did you see him rip the book and
30:17put the ice cream on the Bear yes you
30:19did you saw him do it you're a juror
30:23you've just heard these three kids or
30:25you've seen videos of their interviews
30:27who's the most cred of the three a b or
30:33c let me just say this he didn't do any
30:37of those things he didn't rip anything
30:40tear anything soil anything toss
30:42anything none of them and the only child
30:46the only child who was accurate was the
30:48little girl in the middle the red-haired
30:51girl the one that you rate as the least
30:55accurate and most professionals rate as
30:58the least accurate all he did was he
31:01came he said hi he smiled he walked
31:03around the housekeeping section of the
31:05class and then he say goodbye and left
31:07he didn't tear soil toss
31:11anything here's how you can get kids to
31:14say things that persuade people like
31:17yourself and persuade professionals and
31:19yet are
31:21wrong they're given false stereotypes
31:24about Sam they are told things that
31:27simply aren't true about how clumsy
31:29clutzy Sam is how he's always breaking
31:32things and spilling things and so on and
31:34they're interviewed four times over8
31:36weeks very
31:37suggestively how suggestively well the
31:39interviewer says things like do you
31:41remember that time Sam Stone came to
31:42your school and ripped that book did he
31:44do it on purpose or was it an
31:47[Music]
31:49accident I get to see a lot of cases and
31:52and this this stereotype thing you see
31:54it a lot you you know where you
31:56especially see it is in in acrimonious
31:58custody disputes where one parent
32:02creates a monster out of another
32:05[Music]
32:08parent where you also see stereotype
32:11cases is in physical and sexual abuse
32:13cases where an interviewer is reckless
32:15enough to do this which isn't typical I
32:18don't want to give the impression that
32:20this is something that all interviewers
32:21do because it's only something that the
32:23worst interviewers
32:26do when they interview a child if
32:28they're not getting a disclosure from
32:30the child and they think the child's in
32:32denial or protecting someone they'll say
32:35things like don't you want to help us
32:38keep so and so in jail so he doesn't
32:40hurt other children your friends have
32:43already told us that he hurt them don't
32:45you want to help us protect your friends
32:47so they start creating this negative
32:49stereotype about a bad person he's in
32:52prison let's not let him out and let him
32:55victimize other kids
33:01in our studies we've argued that a
33:03significant minority of kids have had
33:05their actual memories corrupted by these
33:07suggestive techniques that's why lie
33:10detection methods don't work with these
33:12kids because they're not lying they've
33:14come to believe their false reports so
33:18we call them false
33:25beliefs if you corrupt a memory that's
33:29part of the child's
33:31autobiography it's who they are now and
33:34there are no deprogramming techniques
33:36that'll suddenly repair a false memory
33:39yeah you can talk kids out of testifying
33:43about it you can coers and Bully them
33:45and they won't say it but it isn't
33:47because you have rehabilitated their
33:50memory they deeply believe that what
33:52they were saying was truthful so it's
33:55important for judges law Guardians and
33:57other s that are interviewing kids
33:59really far Downstream to appreciate that
34:02Upstream months before maybe other
34:05people were interviewing in a not so
34:07neutral way and when I say interview I'm
34:11including
34:12conversations depending on what you're
34:14saying to your child it could improve
34:16the memory or could corrupt the
34:22memory everyone knows only too well that
34:26there are enormous numbers of kids every
34:29year in this country and others that are
34:35abused most of them are uh neglected a
34:39lot of them are physically abused and
34:40some are sexually abused and all the
34:44official numbers are under reports
34:46because some kids never tell so
34:48everybody's mindful of this everyone
34:50knows real abuse happens far far more
34:53often than anyone is comfortable
34:55thinking about and yet most people also
34:59know that there have been some very sad
35:02miscarriages of Justice where innocent
35:04men and women have been accused of
35:06things that they didn't do so you have
35:08these two tensions pulling on you if
35:11you're a researcher in this
35:14area I think some people quite honestly
35:17would prefer if the research was never
35:19done because it can be used to discredit
35:21real abuse victims testimony and I think
35:25that's absolutely true you could you
35:27could have a case where a child was
35:29genuinely abused and the defense brings
35:32in someone who uses my work and other
35:35people's work to say we know this child
35:37was suggested certain things or had a
35:39certain kind of therapy and therefore we
35:41can't trust what he or she's telling the
35:45court I do think some people would
35:47prefer that those of us doing this kind
35:49of research wouldn't do
35:53it okay one more thing ready real fast
35:58got
35:58it got
36:00it got
36:06it got
36:10[Applause]
36:17it
36:19thanks thanks
36:23[Music]
36:51[Music]
36:57e

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