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Trumps Media War Isn’t New - Just Ask Nixon — Transcript

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0:00Hey, Dom. Hey, Jenna. Dom, so let me ask
0:03you a question. When you hear if I were
0:05to tell you that a president was keeping
0:07an enemy's list, calling the press the
0:09enemy and freezing out reporters, what
0:12would you think of? Oh, I'm thinking of
0:14Donald Trump. Yeah, exactly. But
0:16apparently uh Nixon was doing that way
0:20back in the 70s. That's like fuzzy
0:22memories for you and like zero memories
0:24for me. So, it was over our heads. But
0:27yeah. Yeah. And it turns out it was a
0:29lot of that playbook still getting used
0:31today. So it's all come back. Exactly.
0:34But luckily this week we've actually got
0:36a guest who's going to break it all
0:37down. How it started, how it evolved,
0:39and why it's still happening. And none
0:42of us can pick up on it cuz we're
0:45slow. Let's start the show. Hi, I'm
0:48Jenna. And I'm Dom. You know what's
0:50funny? Not long ago, we were both
0:52breaking news. Now we're breaking
0:54unemployment records. Exactly. Just like
0:57thousands of other journalists who've
0:58been laid off from newsrooms across the
1:00country. Yeah. And you know, after the
1:02shock wore off, we kept asking
1:03ourselves, "What the hell do we do now?"
1:06And over many, many cups of coffee and
1:09maybe a few drinks, we realized we had a
1:11unique opportunity here. Why not pull
1:13back the curtain on what's really
1:14happening in American media, right? I
1:16mean, we've spent years in this industry
1:18seeing how stories get made or don't,
1:21and now we can actually talk about it.
1:23And trust me, there's a lot to talk
1:24about. From local news disappearing to
1:26social media reshaping journalism, we'll
1:28break it all down. And look, we're not
1:30here to lecture anybody. We just want to
1:32help make sense of the information that
1:34we're getting and maybe have some much
1:36needed fun along the way. So whether
1:39you're glued to the news, just trying to
1:40figure out what's real in your feed, or
1:42curious about the future of media, come
1:44hang with us. Welcome to Laid Off and
1:46Looking, a podcast where two journalists
1:48are taking a critical look at American
1:50media.
1:56So, Jenna, before we get into things, I
1:59have to say like last night, uh, Bill
2:01Maher was on he had his show real time
2:04and he was talking about the fact that
2:06he that meeting he had well that dinner
2:09that he had at Marlo. Oh, I saw a
2:11picture of that. Twitter was all over
2:13that. Twitter was not at least my
2:15Twitter timeline was not amused. No,
2:18same here. But last night during his
2:21monologue, he talked about what happened
2:22that night and he it was it this was
2:25something I was not expecting. Um
2:27especially after years of Bill Maher
2:29attacking Trump and the lawsuit that
2:31Trump levied against Bill Maher years
2:33ago. Anyway, he talked about how he was
2:36shocked at how Trump was so gracious and
2:40self-aware. They laughed. He said Trump
2:43made fun of himself. And at one point he
2:45said that Trump even used the word lost
2:47when he was referring to the 2020
2:49election. Um I mean Mar said he's does
2:53it's not you know listen he never liked
2:55the guy before but that after let you
2:57know after last night he's like he
2:59thought he was like he was really
3:01surprised by the person he was having
3:03dinner with. And so he's like, "Listen,
3:06Bill Mor like I'm still a critic of the
3:08guy, but you know what? I just found
3:10this to be so interesting that we had a
3:13really interesting night." Um, I don't I
3:16don't know. How does this make you feel,
3:17Jenna? What you talking about, Dominic?
3:20That's what it's giving me. It's giving
3:22me Gary Coleman from Different Strokes.
3:25What?
3:27Jenna, I you know, I get it. It's giving
3:30rebrand to me. That's what I'm feeling
3:32like is that like someone is in need of
3:34a rebrand. Someone's approval numbers
3:37are apparently in the toilet. And um
3:40yeah, it just it feels like it it that
3:43everything that you just said is giving
3:45like smooth over the cracks some, you
3:48know, just just give it a nice little
3:50glaze. It's really not that bad.
3:53But you know, I just I and I get it. Is
3:55the AP still banned from the White House
3:57press pool? Yes. Okay. So then what? I
4:01don't care if he like laughed at
4:02himself. Like then that makes
4:04everything. It's It's because I just
4:06think like my thing with it is that Bill
4:08Mar's like saying, "Listen, I'm a
4:09comedian. Who gives a [ __ ] if the fact
4:11that I met with him and I but it's like
4:14but it does matter because it changes
4:17like when we're talking about having
4:18conversations. I get about having
4:20conversations with people you disagree
4:21with. That's something else. I that's
4:24something else though than what many
4:26people are going. First of all, he's not
4:27just any old comedian. He's a comedian
4:29with a huge platform and outsized
4:32influence. That's a And then b um yeah,
4:36dude, you're a comedian. And for reasons
4:38that we will look to unpack, um people
4:42seem to listen to comedians more than
4:44they listen to anyone else. That's very
4:47true. So I Oh, I'm just a comedian. No,
4:50dude. You have an outsized influence on
4:52culture. And I think that doesn't go
4:55unnoticed by, you know, Donald Trump.
4:58You know what I mean? That does not go
4:59unnoticed. That everything is definitely
5:03purposeful. And I think like you as you
5:06just mentioned about rebrand is a really
5:08on is really on point. Um but
5:11interesting enough, I know you also just
5:12mentioned AP before. So now our headline
5:16of the week was this is coming from CBS
5:18News and it's an update on the saga
5:20between the Trump administration and the
5:22Associated Press. Right. So it was a
5:25major win this week for the AP. Um,
5:28right over here, federal judge Trevor
5:29McFaden, who was appointed by Trump,
5:32apparently, uh, ruled that the White
5:33House can't block a AP reporters from
5:36things like the Oval Office photo shoots
5:38and air force one trips just because
5:40they wouldn't call the Gulf of Mexico
5:42the Gulf of America. Um, because they're
5:45an international uh, news outlet.
5:48Correct. Yeah. And nobody else is doing
5:50this nonsense. And now the AP still had,
5:53of course, during the whole time they've
5:54still had access to daily press
5:55briefings. they just were not allowed in
5:57those uh anything within those other
5:59areas. Uh but the ruling made it clear
6:03picking and choosing who gets full
6:05access based on what they write, that's
6:07a first amendment violation. Um the
6:10judge gave the White House until April
6:1113th to seek an emergency stay from a
6:14higher court and start prepping to
6:16follow the ruling. The Trump
6:18administration filed a notice of appeal
6:20the next day.
6:23So I know wait hold on file an appeal
6:27the next day. So they're still just like
6:29yeah no son I'm not doing it. This is
6:32the thing that I feel like is a growing
6:34pattern. This is the reason why, you
6:36know, we have had some people on, I've
6:39heard a few other uh scholars go on to
6:42news programs and say, "Yeah, no, we
6:44need to stop suggesting and just say
6:46this is a constitutional crisis because
6:49this administration over and over and
6:51over again keeps getting rulings from
6:52the court and keeps being like, "Yeah,
6:54I'm not feeling it."
6:57I'm very curious to see how you know
7:00obviously the it's like what what
7:03happens and if they're going to have to
7:05some point like I don't know what the
7:06next steps are. Um I just can't believe
7:09that it's been since February that they
7:11that this has been going on. So you're
7:13talking about a little over two months
7:15now. Yeah. Um that this situation has
7:18been going on and I'm just I I don't get
7:20it. Um, but it's also very interesting
7:23because it makes you realize afterwards
7:25sometimes too, like this is not new,
7:28right? This is stuff like this is not
7:30new. It's happened in other
7:32presidencies. Um, specifically, as we
7:35mentioned in our cold, like Nixon um was
7:38doing certain tricks, dirty little
7:41tricks. Um, yes. Well, I mean, listen,
7:45um, wasn't that his nickname? Uh, Tricky
7:47Dick. Yes. Which witch is a play on his
7:51name, not a Yes. Yes. But that was his
7:55nickname. No. Um but it was it was
7:57really fascinating I think to find out
8:00um you know not only what they were
8:02doing but more
8:04importantly the way that history rhymes.
8:08I think that's really what got to me
8:10from our conversation was, you know, who
8:12were the players during the Nixon
8:14administration and what was their
8:16lasting impact? Um, you know, I know
8:18that one of uh this administration's big
8:23nemesises, is of course the entire
8:25nation of China, whatever. But one thing
8:29that I remember a friend of mine telling
8:31me, a friend of mine who used to cover
8:32the UN and had, and this was a several
8:35years ago, like during the Obama years,
8:37and had casually mentioned speaking with
8:39one of the Chinese ambassadors, and what
8:42he said, his big takeaway from that
8:44conversation was that the Chinese
8:46ambassadors said, you know, off the
8:49record, so I'm repeating this now, but
8:51I'm not using names, um, that Americans
8:53think too small, that we think like for
8:55immediate gratification, whereas the
8:58Chinese tend to think like, you know,
9:00500 years from now, what are going to be
9:02the impacts of our decisions today? And
9:05to solidify that, this person then said
9:08to my friend, the UN reporter, we still
9:11don't know the full extent of the impact
9:13of the French Revolution. We're still
9:15seeing the reverberations of that. And
9:18that was the first time that I was like,
9:19damn, that is true.
9:23And we do, we're very much, you know, an
9:25instant gratification nation. you know,
9:26as soon as it's done, move on to the
9:28next as if whatever happened last week
9:30is complete. No.
9:33And this conversation, I think, is a
9:35excellent example of how um not just the
9:38actions, but the players and considering
9:40that we have so many very eager new
9:44young players in this administration
9:46that maybe we do bother to learn their
9:48names.
9:52The press is the enemy. The press is the
9:54enemy. The press is the enemy. The
9:57establishment is the enemy. The
9:59professors are the enemy. The professors
10:02are the enemy. Write that in the black
10:04100 and never forget. Presidents and the
10:07press. It's never been a love story.
10:10Some complain about coverage. Some try
10:12to blacklist reporters. Some change the
10:15rules completely. There's really nothing
10:17new about it. The tension has been part
10:18of the job for decades. Nixon had an
10:20enemy's list. And as we heard in that
10:23clip at the start, the press is near top
10:26of it. Reagan had a strategy. Even a few
10:29Democrats tried to tip the scales. And
10:31now we've got Trump picking his battles
10:33with the news media, banning outlets,
10:35and dragging the Associated Press into
10:37court. So, how do we get here? And how
10:39much of this is just history repeating
10:41itself? To help us trace the roots of it
10:43all, we're joined by Rick Pearlstein.
10:45He's an American historian, a
10:47journalist, and the bestselling author
10:48of the books Nixon Land and Reagan Land.
10:51Rick, welcome to the show. Hey guys,
10:53it's good to be here.
10:55Thanks, Rick. And so, we we open with
10:57that clip of that clip of Nixon calling
10:59the press the enemy. Um, when you look
11:03at the long arc of presidential
11:05hostility with the media, why does Nixon
11:07stand out?
11:09Well,
11:10the conservative kind of not I won't I
11:13won't say the the conservative movement
11:15so much because Nixon's relationship to
11:17that, but let's just say the kind of
11:18conservative attitude towards the press
11:21has almost been a primal kind of
11:23distrust. You know, these are the people
11:25in the metropolis who are kind of
11:27telling, you know, the normal salt of
11:29the earth folks, you know, behind their
11:31white picket fences how to think. You
11:33know, this idea that they're kind of
11:34some unelected aristocracy, right? So,
11:38you know, that's a tradition that he's
11:40basically building on that he was very
11:43um inclined to adopt just because of his
11:47psychology. Uh everything in his
11:49politics was kind of based on this idea
11:51that he represented
11:54uh this class of Americans who we'll
11:57talk about he later called the silent
11:58majority who are patronized to by these
12:01cultural elites. that was just
12:03absolutely central to his thinking about
12:06the world really ever since he was in
12:08college and he formed his own social
12:10club of the kind of outsiders. Uh
12:13because the one social club on campus
12:15wouldn't let you know kind of the the
12:16lowbrow commuter students like him join
12:21and he really had something against
12:24commuter students. They weren't cool.
12:26Think of it like the the revenge of the
12:28nerds, you know, the the poorer kids
12:30really, you know. Yeah. as one of them.
12:32That's why I'm kind of offended. Yeah.
12:34Yeah. Well, you know, clearly you're not
12:35a Nixon fan and and and and a
12:38journalist. So, there you go. It's a
12:40one-two punch. But, I mean, basically,
12:42the idea that these kind of elite
12:44swells, you know, are telling us normal
12:46people what to think, right? Very
12:47central to conservative thinking, very
12:50central to Nixon. Most famously, are you
12:52guys uh familiar with in 1962 something
12:55called the last press conference?
12:57No. But no, that was that was a hoot.
13:00So, Richard Nixon uh ran for president
13:03in 1960 against this really, you know,
13:06kind of charming kind of one of these
13:08guys he was up against in college, you
13:10know, John F. Kennedy, you know, the
13:12cool kid, right? Yes. The tan cool kid,
13:14if I remember correctly, tan. He was,
13:17you know, sweaty and grindy. He was a
13:19tryhard. He was cringe, right? So, he
13:23lost to John F. Kennedy in a very close
13:26race and really believed that it was
13:29because all the cool kids were for
13:30Kennedy. All the press was against him.
13:32And in a way it was true. You know Teddy
13:34White who wrote these series of books
13:36called The Making of the President that
13:37were very widely read and very
13:39influential. His first one was 1960, The
13:41Making of the President 1960. And he
13:44would wear a Kennedy pin onto the Nixon
13:47press train basically in order to troll
13:50Nixon. And so he loses and in 19 high
13:54modern American tradition. Yes. In 1962,
13:57he's, you know, at the low EB of his
13:59career. He'd been kind of the
14:00fair-haired young boy of the Republican
14:02party and he runs for governor of
14:04California, which is a real comedown,
14:06right? I mean, from running to president
14:08for president to running for governor.
14:10And he loses that, too. And on election
14:13night, he gets quite drunk and his press
14:17secretary says, "You got to come down
14:19and face the press." And he gives this
14:24famous rant in which he says that you
14:27guys, you know, you're going to write it
14:30however you want because that's what you
14:31do. You know, it's very Trumpy, right?
14:33They have a real spiritual kinship.
14:36And I'm afraid that you're not going to
14:39have Richard Nixon to kick around
14:41anymore. Kick around anymore because
14:44this is my last press conference. He
14:46basically kind of announced his
14:47retirement and kind of put it all in the
14:50press. blaming them for, you know, just
14:53kind of being unfair to normal guys like
14:55him. So that's Nixon, right? So by the
14:58time he's president, this thing is just
14:59kind of locked in. And of course, in
15:021968, he wins. And you know, he starts
15:05out with a lot of goodwill from the
15:07press. But, you know, he uh squanders it
15:10quite early. One of the things he does
15:13right away is he um starts bugging
15:16members of the press because he's so
15:18obsessed with um leaks. And you know,
15:22the real watershed of this was um when
15:27there was a um he kind of
15:301968 kind of kind of sort of never
15:33really kind of was um specific about it,
15:36but implied that he was going to end the
15:38Vietnam War and that's why you should
15:39vote for him. It was, you know, kind of
15:42kind of implied that he had a secret.
15:43Wait, did he have concepts of a plan to
15:45end the war? He had concepts of a plan
15:48to end the war. And of course, he became
15:51president
15:52and did no such thing. And uh you know,
15:57the the honeymoon was over. And by
15:59October of his first year in office in
16:021969, there was it was October 15th. It
16:05was on a Wednesday, it was on a school
16:06day, it was on a work day. This is
16:07important because it was called the
16:09moratorum against the war. And what it
16:12consisted of was millions of Americans
16:14all over the country, small towns, big
16:17towns,
16:19uh, senators were involved, ministers
16:21were involved, stayed home from work,
16:23stayed home from school, and basically
16:25went on strike against the Vietnam War.
16:27And it was a massive protest, probably
16:29the biggest we've ever had. I've seen
16:31estimates as high as 10 million people
16:33participating. Right. Uh, yeah. your
16:35your your your jaw is dropping, right? I
16:38am. My jaw is dropping simply because um
16:41well, you know, there's a lot of people
16:42who talk of movements now, but nothing
16:44like what you just described. It was it
16:47was remarkable. I would recommend the
16:48Wikipedia page on the moratorium. It's
16:50it's a a fascinating moment and it was a
16:53watershed in history because it it
16:55angered Richard Nixon so much uh that he
16:59kind of lost this sort of middle America
17:01or was losing this middle America over
17:03the war that he kind of claimed was his
17:05own. And so he gave this very important
17:09watershed of a speech on November 3rd of
17:131969 and this was the famous silent
17:16majority speech. Uh I guess I guess you
17:19guys have a a clip from it. You want to
17:22Yeah, actually we do. Dom, do you want
17:24to tee it up? Jenna. No, go ahead,
17:26Jenny. You good? Oh, okay. I was going
17:27to say, yeah, so uh Nixon, of course,
17:29delivered this silent majority speech in
17:31November 3rd of
17:331969. Um and it's not just about how he
17:37was framing the Vietnam War, but also
17:40how he was framing the people protesting
17:42it, which again, I had no idea that
17:44there was a protest that big. Um, but
17:46anyway, here's a question. If they were
17:48really kind of not quite American. Yes.
17:51Yeah. Anyway, here's a little bit of
17:53what uh former president, late President
17:55Nixon had to say for almost 200 years.
17:59The policy of this nation has been made
18:01under our
18:02constitution by those leaders in the
18:04Congress and the White House, elected by
18:06all the people. If a vocal minority,
18:10however fervent its cause, prevails over
18:13reason and the will of the majority,
18:16this nation has no future as a free
18:19society.
18:21Okay. So, Rick, what would you say Nixon
18:24is trying to do with this speech? I
18:26mean, specifically, who is he talking
18:28to? Um, and how did this help set up his
18:31administration's broader fight with the
18:33press? Right? So what he's trying to do
18:36in this speech is create an hard and
18:39fast division between kind of regular
18:42normal Americans, the silent majority,
18:44the people who don't protest, and these
18:48people who are protesting, who, like I
18:50say, had revealed themselves as, you
18:53know, very much normal Americans. So
18:55he's trying to kind of say, who do you
18:57believe, you know, me or your lying
18:59eyes? and saying that these people he he
19:02he talks about a a a sign he claimed to
19:05have seen in San Francisco that said end
19:07the war lose in Vietnam right so these
19:11people want to humiliate America they
19:13want to turn us over to the you know to
19:15the communists etc etc etc you're the
19:17silent majority now it's a bit of a dog
19:19whistle because who are the people we
19:21call minorities in America right people
19:24who aren't white black people so silent
19:26majority means the white people you know
19:28loud minorities are you know these kind
19:30of
19:31loudmouth people who won't shut up,
19:33whether they're the hippies, the
19:35commies, the black people, you know, all
19:38those people. So, something important
19:40happens after the speech, though. This
19:43really is the high tide of the kind of
19:46cultural and moral influence of the
19:49three network newscasts, right? these
19:52stentoran old men who, you know, kind of
19:56have this amazing kind of cultural
19:58confidence to kind of sit on Mount
20:00Olympus and tell people how the world
20:02works. And after this speech, when he,
20:05you know, kind of claims the monopoly of
20:07America's attention, they do something
20:08kind of unprecedented because they have
20:10this high tide of confidence. Each
20:12network kind of has a panel discussion
20:14afterwards and they kind of pick apart
20:16the speech, you know, kind of line by
20:19line and they say, "Oh, there's nothing
20:20new in the speech and da da da." And
20:23he's doing the same things as Lyndon
20:25Johnson. So, this is another kind of one
20:28of these kind of last press conference
20:29moments in which he
20:31identifies the press as almost a
20:34conspiracy against him, you know, kind
20:35of going back to the beginning of his
20:37career in the 1940s.
20:39And that inaugurates
20:43a very um intense push back effort uh
20:48created from the White House first of
20:50all to create this uh illusion of
20:54popular support. They they they create
20:56this telegram
20:59uh uh like 80,000 like 80,000 letters
21:02they were kind of you know kind of
21:03solicited, right? So then he'd go on TV
21:05and say look at all these telegrams. I'm
21:07the one that people support, not you
21:09guys. And the other thing was he had
21:12this vice president who was kind of seen
21:15as kind of clownish and kind of second
21:18rate, kind of a dless kind of guy, Spiro
21:21Agnu, who was quite a bit more
21:24conservative than Nixon was, and really
21:27had mastered this rhetoric of us versus
21:30them and the elite versus the ordinary
21:34Americans. and he had only recently kind
21:37of come out of the shadows uh that
21:39Halloween. Actually, he had this kind of
21:41really scary speech in which he talked
21:44about um you know how civilization was
21:47on the ropes because the hippies and the
21:50degenerates were basically taking over
21:52much more the kind of thing we'd
21:54associate with you know a Trump than I
21:56was going to say this feels like a copy
21:58paste to the moment we're in now. Well,
22:01I mean, uh, Donald Trump had signs that
22:04said support the silent majority in 2016
22:06at his rallies. Yeah. I mean, he he's,
22:08you know, this is a guy he's he's going
22:10to school on what he remembers from his,
22:12you know, when his the beginning of his
22:14adult life. And, you know, so so Agnu
22:16was kind of the bad cop. Nixon was kind
22:18of the good cop. So what they did after
22:20this outrage of the media critic, daring
22:23to criticize the president for his war
22:25policies was they sent Spiro Aagnu on
22:28this tour and Spiro kind of becomes a
22:30superstar and he has this speech writer
22:33who uh goes on to uh become a New York
22:37Times columnist. We can get to that
22:39named William Sapphire and they have
22:41this great kind of team effort. They
22:43both love alliterations. They both love
22:45big words and he keeps on coming up with
22:48these formulations that you know kind of
22:50lead the news that the media are
22:51nattering nabobs of negativism, right?
22:54He has these these great formulations uh
22:56about the three network newscasts as uh
23:01basically
23:03um almost like
23:06these aristocracies, right? this these
23:09unelected
23:10uh elites who um you know kind of like
23:14are coming out of nowhere and again
23:17telling Americans what to think and that
23:19really you know sets a template that the
23:21Republicans have been dining out on ever
23:23since. And and it's also like days after
23:27Nixon gives his speech Agnu goes on the
23:29road. Yep. And you know, we have
23:31actually a clip of when he addressed it
23:34was like 10 days after November 13th,
23:361972, he addressed the Midwestern
23:38Regional Republican Conference in De Mo,
23:40Iowa. Let's take a listen to that.
23:43The views of a majority of this
23:45fraternity do not, and I repeat, not
23:48represent the views of America.
24:03And that is why such a great gulf
24:05existed between how the nation received
24:08the president's address and how the
24:10networks reviewed it. You know, Richard,
24:13like what triggered that moment of him
24:15of, you know, Agnu really attacking the
24:19press? I mean that whole speech is him
24:21basically just saying you know they're
24:23elite they're a fraternity they're you
24:26know they're they're all after they did
24:28you know the press it really kind of
24:30comes out of the vibe of the
24:331960s that um you know it was this time
24:37of
24:39extraordinary social tumult you know
24:41lots of protests lots of norms involving
24:45you know things like family and sex and
24:47how young people don't obey their
24:49parents and um you know obviously the
24:52opposition to opposition to a war which
24:54you never would have seen in during
24:55World War II or the Korean War, right?
24:58And one of the watersheds for this
24:59moment was uh the Democratic convention
25:02the previous year in
25:041968 and also in Chicago. Also in
25:09Chicago and uh there's a wonderful book
25:12about this by a historian named Heather
25:15Hendershot although I write about it in
25:17my book Nixon Land Too. Let me tell you
25:19the story about this. Uh I have a friend
25:22who passed away a couple of years ago
25:24named Luke Cook and at that time in 1968
25:27he was a producer for NBC News and he
25:30was you know a partisan of it was kind
25:34of just like the accusation that Agnu
25:35made. He was a partisan of the civil
25:37rights movement. He was a partisan of
25:38the anti-war movement. He was just one
25:40of these enemies that, you know, they
25:42had in mind and he was given the job
25:44because he was kind of a real Chicago
25:46street guy of covering producing the
25:50protest footage. And as we know, because
25:54it's a very famous moment in history,
25:56um, lots of militant protesters came to
25:59Chicago. And you know, long story short,
26:02I have a whole chapter uh just kind of
26:04giving a kind of a minute
26:05minute-by-minute account of this one
26:07day, August 28th, 1968. Uh the
26:10protesters sat down in the street in
26:12front of one of the luxury hotels in
26:14Chicago, right downtown, right on the
26:16lakefront called um uh it was the Hilton
26:19Hotel and they had a sitin and
26:23um cops just kind of waited into the sit
26:25sit in and started whailing on people,
26:27you I mean it's just really I mean you
26:29can just you know literally just kind of
26:31taking their nightsticks and beating
26:32people within an inch of their lives
26:35and the protesters start chanting. Do
26:38you know what this famous chant was? The
26:41whole world is watching. Right. Oh wow.
26:44Yeah. I heard that.
26:46[Laughter]
26:47Yes. And there were there was a call
26:49back right. I mean this is this is one
26:51of these like high melodrama in American
26:54except it wasn't a war in Vietnam. Okay.
26:56I'm sorry. I just there's so many
26:58parallels. It's blowing my mind. Like
27:00and I mean play by play. This is our
27:02country, you know? I mean, this is where
27:05the scripts come from, right? And so
27:07here's my friend Lou and he goes back to
27:10the office to kind of edit the footage.
27:12This is back when they actually
27:13literally had to develop the film. It
27:15took like a half an hour. And um there's
27:19no one to answer the phones in the NBC
27:21office. And here's this guy who's, you
27:24know, he thought he what he's witnessed
27:27is this triumphant kind of moment in
27:30which these martyrs for justice were put
27:33on display for the country. He kind of
27:35compared it to what happened at Edund
27:37Pettis Bridge in Selma, right? 1965,
27:40right? So then when when George
27:42Wallace's, you know, cops beat people
27:44within an inch of their life, that
27:46caused a national outrage and led to the
27:49passage of the Voting Rights Act. So
27:51he's like he's this is another Selma and
27:54he he's he's drafted into answering the
27:56phones and one after the other I tell
27:59this story in my book Nixon Land people
28:01are saying why did the
28:04protesters provoke the cops like that
28:08right it's the protesters fault why is
28:10the media showing this why is the media
28:12telling the story from the perspective
28:14of these degenerates instead of you know
28:16the forces of law and order and what
28:19they kind of figured out was this is
28:20what protests are, you know, they stage
28:23these kind of dramatic confrontations
28:26uh with the state. In fact, you know, if
28:27you listen to the people in the new
28:28left, they said this was the point of it
28:30to kind of heighten the contradictions
28:32between, you know, these people that
28:33they thought were fascist and were kind
28:35of showing themselves a little bit to be
28:37and um the forces of justice. But it was
28:41it was a it was completely the opposite
28:44of what Lou thought was going to happen.
28:45In fact, it was so traumatizing for him
28:47that he like took a year off and
28:49basically, you know, had to like leave
28:51the profession. But what was happening
28:54was this classic
28:57showdown, right, between this vision
29:00that people have of uh their nation as
29:03just and peaceful and and doing the
29:06right thing and the right side and these
29:08people who are just tearing that down
29:11supposedly, you know, challenging that.
29:13And it caused a real um kind of dark
29:17night of the soul in the uh executive
29:20suites on kind of Avenue of the Americas
29:21in New York and you know like Columbus
29:23Circle where ABC was they began to ask
29:27themselves whether um they did have a
29:31liberal bias right I mean it was just
29:33the real self flagagulation happened and
29:36they decided that they didn't um that
29:39that all this kind of discourse we hear
29:41about the media
29:43um you know, ignoring the people in the
29:46diners, right? I mean, it's kind of in
29:48this way in a lot of ways. Is this where
29:50that one Pennsylvania diner became
29:52popular? That's right. That's right.
29:54They started showing up in the diners
29:56and they're like, "Oh, we're telling the
29:57story of these civil rights people, you
29:59know, we uh we're telling the story of
30:01these anti-war people. Why aren't we
30:02telling the people of uh you know, like
30:05um you know, De Mo, Iowa, right? Why is
30:08it that Wait, don't live what? I Oh,
30:12okay. So, history. It's a [ __ ]
30:15Okay. So, so in a lot of ways, so that's
30:171968 and and that in a lot of ways that
30:20was where um Richard Nixon kind of won
30:23the election because paradoxically, even
30:25though these people were protesting the
30:27Democratic nominee, Hubert Humphrey, for
30:29not coming out against the war, people
30:31associated because Nixon did a really
30:33good job of drawing the association
30:36between all these forces of disorder and
30:39the media aristocrats who backed them
30:41with the Democratic Party, with
30:43liberalism.
30:46I I I my brain
30:48hurts. Okay, so here's I mean if you
30:52came up in a pl in a place time and
30:53place like mine, I
30:55mean it was that was the way the world
30:58worked. You know, it's not so much that
30:59that's the way the world worked. It's
31:01the fact that all of this was just able
31:04to literally like playbyplay happen
31:07again and we all just kind of were like,
31:09"Yeah, this is so crazy that it's
31:12happened." It happens in the 70s. I mean
31:13it hap that's how you know Ronald Reagan
31:15got himself elected on the same
31:17rhetoric. I mean, you remember Sarah
31:18Palin, you know, she was very big on
31:20this kind of rhetoric. You know, um Nuke
31:22Gingrich, same kind of rhetoric. Um, in
31:25a lot of ways, like I say, it's primal.
31:27It's it's the kind of, you know, sort of
31:29cosmopolitan intellectual elite, you
31:32know, or or or Spirand Andrew loved
31:35Spiru loved to call them so-called
31:37intellectuals, right? Self-described
31:39intellectuals. We're the smart ones,
31:41right? Uh Rush Limba was very big on
31:43that one. Yeah. Sometimes I got to be
31:46honest. I don't know if the media can
31:47help themselves when it comes to we're
31:49the smart ones. We're the smart ones.
31:51Well, I mean it comes, you know, I mean
31:53it's it's not out of thin air, right? I
31:55mean the media I mean have the
31:58responsibility of you know basically
32:02taking the chaos of the world and
32:04turning it into a story turning into a
32:06narrative and uh right what are you
32:09going to do right and in the 60s the
32:11narrative often because that's what was
32:15you know interesting was the forces of
32:19uh protest against the forces of order
32:23and Um, you know, I mean, if you think
32:26about the
32:27media, TV news especially, kind of
32:30coming into its own in the '60s in these
32:33kind of melodramas like, you know, Selma
32:36in 1965, you know, Birmingham in 1963,
32:41um, the Vietnam War, uh, you know, on
32:44the air every night, um, you know,
32:48suddenly it's the first televised war.
32:50And even though it's it's very much
32:52exaggerated the extent to which uh TV
32:55news told a story of Vietnam which um
33:00you know was criticizing you know the
33:02war um you couldn't help it because the
33:05war was just so such a failure and so
33:08unjust. In fact, one of the most I would
33:10say even to go back even before earlier
33:13in 1968, another one of these watersheds
33:16was when Walter Kankite, who Dominic,
33:21maybe you're old enough to remember.
33:23Maybe um my friend Jenna might be a
33:25little too young to remember Walter. I
33:26just know he's the patron saint of
33:28journalism. He is the patron saint. He
33:31was America's uncle, grandpa. You know,
33:33he was the white guy that everyone
33:35trusted. He was called the most trusted
33:36man in America. Yeah. And what he did in
33:391968 when the communist forces in
33:43Vietnam did something called the Ted
33:44offensive in which they they
33:47um embarked on this surprise attack on
33:52the South Vietnam capital in Saigon when
33:55supposedly America had seen the light of
33:57the at the end of the tunnel and was
33:59going to win the war. He went to South
34:02Vietnam. He went to Saigon to see for
34:05himself, which was a pretty remarkable
34:07thing to do. And he gave a very very
34:10rare kind of once in a career editorial
34:12in which he said, "This war is a
34:15stalemate. We might lose it." And he was
34:18the guy from CBS. And one of the things
34:21I I just wrote about for my next book is
34:23um the takedown of Dan Rather in 19 in
34:272004
34:28um which was a very uh important kind of
34:33chapter in this story in which he uh did
34:37a very compelling and accurate report on
34:41George W. Bush having evaded his
34:43National Guard service during Vietnam.
34:45But he used a document which he was not
34:48able to verify. Uh basically a letter
34:52from one commander to another saying I'm
34:54sick of covering for this Bush kid.
34:57Right. And that um
35:01uh basically uh created this mob attack
35:05on him that lended ended up with him
35:08losing his job as the anchor man. But in
35:10a lot of ways that was a
35:13vendetta that began against CBS
35:17News as CBS News was being attacked by
35:21the right not because they were the
35:24worst, you know, network-c but because
35:26they were the best. They were the
35:27Tiffany network. They were the ones who
35:30were uncovering the evils of society
35:33most effectively. Right. Um okay. So I'm
35:36wondering now because and I don't know
35:38where this uh concept or phrase sort of
35:42like came into uh the at least
35:45journalism media zeitgeist but did Nixon
35:48have a problem with just press and the
35:50concept of press and being challenge
35:53challenged in general or was he more
35:56into like you guys are so biased and
35:58you're like elitist I actually want a
36:01fair and balanced press that's like
36:03honest about claiming that That's not
36:06what's happening. Do do you do you are
36:08you are you are you are are you having
36:10fun with me? You know you know this,
36:11right? You know you know Roger Als was
36:14Richard Nixon's media consultant. Yes.
36:16I'm Yes, I'm Jim Forward. I see. Nice.
36:19I'll take the bait. This is where this
36:21guy Roger Als entered this story and
36:22he's a a fascinating guy. Also, you guys
36:26are not old enough to remember this talk
36:28show. It's called the Mike Douglas Show.
36:30It was a talk show. I've seen clips.
36:32Mike Douglas was kind of the Oprah
36:34Winfrey of kind of like the this the the
36:3770s, the 60s, I should say, and the 70s.
36:40I remember him, you know, when I was a
36:41kid in the 80s. And uh he had a
36:45producer, a young hot shot producer who,
36:47you know, like like our friend Dom here,
36:48kept on winning Emmys. And uh and in
36:541967 when Richard Nixon was beginning
36:58his political campaign, he went on this
37:01show for Housewives, you know, the the
37:03the Mike Douglas show, you know,
37:05recipes, celebrities, you know, and he
37:09was in the makeup, right? Smart, right?
37:12Yeah. You and Roger Ariels agree. So
37:14he's in the makeup for him briefly.
37:17Yeah. He he he's in the makeup chair and
37:20he's ranting about, you know, the
37:22ridiculous things you have to do to
37:25become president these days. And Roger
37:27Als, this young guy, I think he might
37:29have been like 28 at the time, just
37:31actually read him. He's like, "Mr. Vice
37:35President, if you think that this is
37:39some kind of chore, then you'll never be
37:41president. If you had done this sort of
37:43thing better in 1960, you would have
37:45been president." And Richard Nixon was
37:47so impressed with Roger Als that he
37:49hired him as his media consultant. The
37:51very best one of the very best books
37:53about how um how media manipulation
37:58happens in campaigns is called the
38:00selling of the president
38:011968 in which Roger Als is one of the
38:04characters and the packaging of Richard
38:07Nixon. There's a famous Esquire cover
38:10from around that time in which um you
38:12know supposedly he hadn't worn makeup
38:14during the you know the the the um the
38:18um debate with John F. Kennedy in 1960,
38:22right? So that was kind of what Al's
38:24that's kind of the the kind of
38:25background to this conversation. And on
38:27the cover of Esquire, there all these
38:28hands, you know, kind of putting
38:30lipstick on him and blush. And so um he
38:34hires Roger Als really literally you can
38:36find memos in the Nixon library of Nixon
38:39of of Roger Als telling him what giving
38:42him makeup tips basically. Um and Roger
38:44Als uh he doesn't I don't know if he
38:47actually became a White House staffer. I
38:48think you might have been an outside
38:49consultant, but there's a very famous
38:51memo that, you know, it's easily
38:53googleable in which Roger Als says, you
38:58know, conservatives, Republicans will
39:00never get a fair shake on TV. So,
39:02basically, we have to create our own
39:04media institutions. So, it's not so much
39:06that we, you know, don't want to be
39:08covered, it's just that we want our own
39:11friendly media institutions. And you
39:14know that memo from I think 1970 or 71
39:18uh for good reason is kind of understood
39:21as the the text of what became Fox News.
39:25You know uh Roger Als went on to you
39:28know produce Rush Limbo's television
39:30program. Uh he was a big consultant for
39:33Ronald Reagan obviously a guy who was
39:36very serious about his appearances in
39:38the media. And you know, Roger Als, you
39:40know, had the same attitudes about this
39:42stuff as Spiro Anaku did. And you know,
39:46there have been a lot of attempts uh
39:47kind of along the way to create
39:50conservative TV networks on cable. They
39:53all failed because they were really
39:56created
39:57by political junkies who were ideologues
40:01who didn't know how to put on a good
40:03show. They didn't know how to put on a
40:05Michael Douglas show, you know, with the
40:08makeup tips and the recipes and the
40:11blonde ladies with the long legs and the
40:14flashing lights and Roger Als um was a
40:18genius. um you know when when um George
40:22HW Bush I I just um you can see this is
40:26a really good documentary that I'm in
40:28called um Rather about Dan Rather and
40:32Roger Als is kind of one of the minor
40:34characters
40:36um in 1988 when George HW Bush was
40:40running for president and a kind of
40:42classic showdown between the forces of
40:45accountability and coverup he had been
40:48involved olved in the Iran Contra
40:50scandal and he refused to do any
40:53interviews and he was basically
40:55stonewalling and Dan rather was like
40:58well we're doing informational
40:59interviews he was the anchor at that
41:02point of CBS News you know one of these
41:03three towering guys uh and we're going
41:07to do interviews with both candidates
41:08and can we you know have you in for an
41:10interview and Roger Al said yeah we'll
41:13do it but we're not going to be in the
41:15studio and it has to be
41:18five and he basically created this
41:22scenario in which he knew that Dan
41:25Rather in the guise of doing this kind
41:27of general introduction interview was
41:30going to ambush him with Iran Contra
41:32questions
41:34and they had rehearsed this and he did
41:38such a good job of performing
41:40this outrage that he had been ambushed.
41:44Um um and literally Roger Als was off
41:49camera so that not only could
41:51the audience at home, you and me
41:53couldn't see him, but Dan Rather
41:56couldn't see him. And he was holding up
41:58qards. He was literally feeding George
42:00W. Bush his lines and Dan
42:04Rather had
42:07uh both guys were screaming and the news
42:10were next day was that Dan Rather
42:12ambushed the vice president of the
42:13United States not that the vice
42:15president of the United States was you
42:17know lying about violating the
42:20constitution and this was again all
42:22Roger Als all coming out of this
42:25um
42:27playbook and then you get this
42:29billionaire from Australia It's like out
42:31of a science fiction movie who decides
42:32he's going to, you know, kind of
42:34brainwash, you know, using the most
42:36sophisticated techniques of, you know,
42:38lower order thinking by, you know,
42:41creating this kind of, you know, fog of
42:43terror.
42:47Yeah. Well, you know, this stuff keeps
42:48me in business. I mean, I on one hand,
42:51I'm glad I'm always glad to see people
42:53stay working, but my god, no, I guess
42:56like we've had conversations and Dom, I
42:58know we have another clip coming up, but
43:00very quickly, I'm just having this aha
43:02moment because we've had conversations
43:03about um our recent episode about how
43:06the right has managed to dominate uh the
43:09online media space. And what I'm now
43:12putting together in real time is that
43:13outrage script. there's been an
43:16understanding of how to work the media
43:18versus another ver different
43:20understanding of like so what Richard
43:22Nixon did with this whole kind of
43:25complex was and again something I
43:27document in my book is he um realized
43:32that this kind of guilt that we talked
43:34about in 1968 with the media saying oh
43:36my god we don't understand middle
43:37America could be leveraged right that
43:39the rest could be worked and one of the
43:40things he did was uh they pressured the
43:43newspapers into hiring more Republican
43:45and conservatives columnists. So that's
43:47how Pat Buchanan became a columnist.
43:49He'd been a Nixon speech writer, had
43:50written some of these Agnu speeches.
43:52That's how William Sapphire became a New
43:53York Times columnist. And
43:56basically his entire job at the New York
43:58Times was, you know, smearing Democrats
44:00and making up stuff about Democrats. He
44:02was kind of like a, you know, kind of
44:03highbrow Rush Limbbo. And that was all a
44:07strategy. You know, you can read the
44:09memos, you know. Thank god nobody falls
44:11for that anymore. Yeah. Rich, you know,
44:14like um you know, um uh Nixon had an
44:16aid, Jeb Stewart McGruger McGrder, who
44:18went to jail for Watergate. He wrote a
44:20memo saying, "Look, these these networks
44:22all own TV um uh they they own uh local
44:29local uh you know, local TV outlets. We
44:32could threaten them with losing their
44:34FCC licenses. We can threaten them with
44:37antitrust. And so this is you're right.
44:39This is, you know, I mean, a lot of what
44:41you see, I mean, my my theory is that
44:43had had Richard Nixon not been caught in
44:46Watergate, a lot of what we're seeing
44:48now um was actually written in the cards
44:51for Nixon's second term. You know, it's
44:55it was so interesting you bring up
44:56Watergate because like not long after
44:59the election of 72 when Nixon won again
45:02and six months into like this whole
45:04Washington Post report of Watergate,
45:08there are these clips right there. There
45:09was a recording of Nixon from December
45:1172 where where he's talking to his press
45:13secretary, Ron Ziggler, about how the
45:16White House should treat uh a certain
45:20press um a spec very specific press
45:23moving forward. And so we'll just take a
45:25quick listen to that. I want it clearly
45:27understood that from now on ever, no
45:31reporter from the Washington Post is
45:33ever to be in the White House. Is that
45:35clear? Absolutely. Unless it's a press
45:37conference. Yes, sir. Briefings here,
45:39but not a briefing. But never never in
45:41the White House. No church service.
45:44Nothing that Mrs. Nixon does. You tell
45:46Connie don't tell Mrs. Nixon cuz she'll
45:48approve it. No reporter from the
45:50Washington Post is ever to be in the
45:53White House again. So we hear
45:55explicitly, Rick, that they're like
45:58blacklisting the Post. Now, it's
45:59interesting because they actually say
46:01unless it's a press conference. So they
46:03do distinguish, but they're not allowed
46:05in the White House. They're not allowed
46:06to host. They're not allowed to be a
46:08president others. Like how did just
46:11thinking about how that compares so much
46:13to what we're seeing happen right now in
46:15real time with you know Trump and the AP
46:18banning the AP. Yeah. Yes. I mean so how
46:22I mean what what's similar and what's
46:25different in how they weaponize access
46:28to the press between these two in a way.
46:30Well, I mean, so much of what Donald
46:33Trump does takes the playbook
46:37um that you see in previous Republican
46:41presidencies. You know, there was
46:43something in the Nixon presidency called
46:44the Malik Manual. He had a an aid named
46:47Fred Malik who created a manual about
46:48how you can fire civil servants because
46:50the deep state was this, you know, nest
46:52of secret Democrats, right? Um and turns
46:55it up to 11. just, you know, kind of,
46:57you know, just takes it further and more
47:00brazenly than anyone had ever uh dreamed
47:04of before. I mean, you know, George W.
47:07Bush, you know, was a step along this
47:09same authoritarian ratchet. You know, do
47:12you remember um what was his name?
47:14Guckert. There was a there was a um um
47:18some weirdo um kind of right-wing
47:20blogger who um got access to the White
47:23House press room and asked all the
47:24softball questions, you know. Um the
47:28same kind of you know, I mean, if you
47:30look at how they handled press in the
47:32Iraq war, um you know, public
47:36information officers
47:38um were all suddenly Marines in uniform.
47:41And so you couldn't go on TV and ask
47:44tough questions of a marine in uniform
47:46that wasn't, you know, supporting the
47:48troops, right? So all these kind of
47:50strategims, you know, you see kind of
47:52just evolving. I mean, you have Mike
47:55Dver in um Ronald Reagan's presidency.
47:59He was considered the inventor and the
48:01master of the presidential photo op,
48:04right? Staging political events, you
48:06know, so the lighting was perfect, the
48:08background was perfect. The most famous
48:09one for Reagan was a campaign speech he
48:11gave in 1980 with, you know, the Statue
48:13of Liberty in the background. You know,
48:15the apotheio of this for George W. Bush
48:19was, you know, the mission accomplished,
48:21you know, staging, right? Uh, and then,
48:25you know, with with uh Donald Trump, um,
48:29like I say, he turns all this stuff, you
48:32know, into the stratosphere, you know,
48:34kind of kind of turns it thermonuclear.
48:37and um he's backed by, you know,
48:41basically 50 years of
48:45um a conservative Republican grassroots
48:49that's primed to understand the very act
48:53of independent attempts to figure out
48:57what is going on as a conspiracy against
49:00ordinary people. Right? I am your
49:02vengeance. Right? They're not they're
49:05not going after me. They're going after
49:07you. And who is they? You know, they is,
49:10you know, Jim Acasta. You know, they is
49:13the Associated Press. You know, um they
49:16is, you know, anyone who um you know,
49:20that's what I interpreted
49:22as Yeah. Whoever they is, the Jews, they
49:25is whoever wanted to be, right? And it's
49:27it's the the people who, you know, I
49:30mean, I hate these, you know, um bumper
49:32stickers that say, you know, if you love
49:34freedom, you know, thank a soldier. You
49:35know, obviously thank a journalist,
49:37right? Because you actually look at
49:40Oh my god. Yes. That's the bumper
49:41sticker. Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. Because I
49:44mean, literally the people who founded
49:45this country, supposedly the people
49:47running the Supreme Court are quote
49:48unquote originalists. They're really
49:50into the what the founding fathers
49:51supposedly originally want. Well, what
49:53they wanted was a press that was
49:56um so so um venerated that newspapers
50:03could be sent out almost for free. There
50:06was almost no postage. That was one of
50:07the first laws Congress passed. And the
50:09reason was there was a debate the big
50:12debate in Congress you know in the 1780s
50:15you know after the constitution was um
50:18you know um ratified was whether postage
50:22for newspapers should be very very cheap
50:24or postage for newspapers should be
50:26free. That was the debate because they
50:29literally how we got the post office.
50:31That was how they we got the post
50:33office. It was the biggest part of the
50:34federal government.
50:36Literally, they believed in almost
50:38something like a socialized media that
50:41the the newspaper should not even be a
50:42business. It should be almost impossible
50:44for a newspaper to fail, right? And so
50:48anytime you see, you know, some kind of,
50:50you know, austerity measure and in some
50:52kind of big news organization, you know,
50:55I mean, Thomas Jefferson is rolling over
50:57in his grave, you know, Thomas
50:58Jefferson, the guy who whenever like a a
51:01foreign emissary would come to visit him
51:03in the White House, would put out the
51:05most nasty, scabous articles about him
51:08out in the at the chamber so they could
51:09say, "Mr. President, have you seen what
51:11they're saying about you in these
51:12newspapers? What are you going to do?"
51:13So he could troll them and say, "No,
51:15that's what we do in America. You know,
51:16we believe that uh people in power
51:19should be subject at all times to the
51:22most, you know, free freewheeling
51:25criticism." And that's what America is
51:28all about. So when you see, you know,
51:29Donald Trump, you know, kicking out the
51:31AP or going after a Jim Acasta or going
51:35after the very idea of a media that's
51:38independent of um the political will of
51:43the dictator, you know that he is acting
51:47the very opposite of the people who
51:49founded this country's intention.
51:53Well, I think we can leave the Nixon
51:55story on that.
51:57I think I made you speechless. Well, I
52:00mean, don't they teach you this in
52:01journalism school?
52:04Not like that. Not like that. And the
52:07part about I mean I knew that obviously,
52:10you know, the post office and newspapers
52:13and their you know founding of the
52:14country went hand in hand and etc. But
52:17the concept of newspapers were supposed
52:19to not fail that that's not supposed to
52:22really only they only became advertising
52:24advertisers supported in like the second
52:26half of the second you 19th century
52:28before that it was just you know people
52:30would pay a little bit of money and get
52:31a newspaper and they printed whatever
52:34they want. Now you know was journalism
52:36little screwed up then? Sure. I mean
52:37whatever. Oh yeah, but at least you know
52:40it was um venerated and people
52:43understood, you know, I mean, you know,
52:47right-wing, you can go to any right-wing
52:49conference and you can find buy a
52:50t-shirt that says rope tree journalist,
52:53some assembly required, right? And this
52:55is from guys, you know, these guys who
52:57were coming up with the system literally
52:58didn't want there to be a standing army.
53:00They didn't even want the nation to have
53:01an army, just militias, right? So
53:03clearly journalists, you know, were more
53:05more, you know, I mean, I I, you know,
53:08whenever I, you know, get in some
53:10ridiculous fight with some right-winger
53:11on on Twitter, I say, you know, like
53:14literally this this this ICE agent was
53:15like, what what quality what
53:17qualifications do you have to make these
53:18criticisms? And I say, I'm the
53:22one sitting here on my couch typing, you
53:26know, um, that the people who founded
53:28this country considered heroes. You know
53:33where are the good guys? Oh my god. I
53:37Anyway, it's just it's a logical
53:38process. Or my Do they have more
53:40control? Do they have more control? Was
53:42it seemed like there were like reading
53:44certain things like there was obviously
53:46the Washington Post being exuded from it
53:49all, but it seemed there was a lot of
53:50anger targeting broadcast news. They
53:54seemed to be having like a So I'm kind
53:56of curious. Is that because it was it
53:58was reaching a larger audience than
54:00newspapers and it had such cultural
54:02authority
54:04and it's fascinating to kind of see how
54:06that kind of shifted because obviously
54:08we have another shift happening right
54:10now going from broadcast like where
54:12nobody is paying attention to broadcast
54:14everybody's now shifting to social media
54:17going online and you know whether it's
54:19Tik Tok and those things and how people
54:21can control the narrative. Um I guess
54:24it's it's kind of curious how do you see
54:26that sort of shaking out as well yeah so
54:29there was all this debate over whether
54:31you know among uh Democratic strategists
54:35about whether Kla Harris should go on
54:36Joe Rogan's podcast right because I
54:39remember clown and he kind of has all
54:41these you know um you know uh crackpots
54:45on but the fact of the matter is he also
54:48has millions of young men who hang on
54:50his every word you know he kind 33.4
54:53million if I I remember correctly,
54:55right? Enormously trusted validator and
54:59you know,
55:00you know, he's kind of like I could say
55:02he has a really open mind, but you know,
55:04it's like so open that anything can fall
55:05in and fall out, right? Because that's
55:07what his bag is, right? But um I
55:10recently they had a a profile by the an
55:13article by the wonderful Andrew Merritt
55:15in the New Yorker and he talked about um
55:18how the right-wing has managed to um
55:21cultivate this bro podcast world, you
55:25know, which was pretty a-political a few
55:27years ago. and he tells this absolutely
55:30terrifying story about how within the
55:32Harris campaign, they're like, "Maybe we
55:34should go on Joe Rogan because then we
55:37can get a really good headline the next
55:38day in the New York
55:40Times." So, they're kind of still living
55:42in the 80s.
55:45[Music]
55:49All right. So, that was just the first
55:51part of our conversation with Rick,
55:52which of course, if you saw my face
55:54throughout that whole thing, I was
55:56absolutely shocked and indignant and
55:58just can't believe that we're still
56:00here. But as we kept going, our
56:03conversation then pivoted to the 80s and
56:05the Reagan years and Ronald Reagan's
56:07lasting impact on the press. And by the
56:10way, we didn't just talk about
56:11Republican presidents, we also got into
56:13some of the damage that the Democrats
56:15did as well. So come back next week for
56:17the rest of our conversation with Rick.
56:19Thanks a lot. Laid Off and Looking is an
56:22independent podcast conceived of and
56:24created by Jenna Flanigan and Dominic
56:26Cameo. Music provided by Jay Cowitt.
56:29Research by Laura Rothenbucker. You can
56:31watch and follow us on YouTube. Or you
56:33can listen and follow us wherever you
56:35get your podcasts. And if you have any
56:37questions or suggestions, we want to
56:39hear from you. So leave a comment. We do
56:42check them or reach out to us anytime at
56:45laidoffandlookingpodgmail.com.
56:48New episodes every Friday.
56:50[Music]

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