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Truce - Joseph McCarthy and Roy Cohn (featuring Larry Tye, author of Demagogue) — Transcript

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0:00stop just for a sec count the pieces of
0:03technology that are with you airpods
0:06smartphone car watch book yeah books are
0:10technology want to notice more I'm Adam
0:13and I'm Chris find us on the device and
0:15virtue podcast we argue the wrongs and
0:17rights of technology and faith in
0:20everyday life your everyday life okay
0:22unpause back to your regularly scheduled
0:25podcast hey everyone this is a bonus
0:27episode while you wait for season six to
0:29begin it doesn't quite fit into season
0:31five about the history of fundamentalism
0:33and it doesn't really fit into season
0:35six it's just an important story I tried
0:39to get today's guest for the show a few
0:41years ago and we finally were able to
0:43make it happen so I jumped on the chance
0:45and season six is coming along nicely
0:48I've got several episodes locked and I'm
0:50in the process of completing several
0:52more it's such a complicated story that
0:54I want to have a good deal of it
0:55completed before I start releasing so I
0:58don't fall behind I'll keep you posted
1:00also this show usually covers history as
1:02it relates to the Christian church this
1:05episode does not have that direct Bend
1:07but its reverberations are felt in both
1:10season three and season six so it's well
1:13worth covering okay here's the bonus
1:18so a lot of people Democrats and
1:20Republicans were understandably worried
1:22about what they thought was not just
1:25communist expansion abroad which people
1:29thought rightly or wrongly was a threat
1:31to an American and a democratic way of
1:34life but they were very concerned about
1:37whether we had spies in our own
1:38government this is Larry time my name is
1:41Larry Kai I'm an author and I've written
1:44books on a range of strange characters
1:46ranging from Superman to Bobby Kennedy
1:50from the Pullman porters the black men
1:53who worked on railroads to Satchel Paige
1:56and most recently Joe McCarthy that's
1:58who we're talking about today senator
2:00Joseph McCarthy one of those rare
2:03individuals to have his own ISM that's
2:05McCarthyism which Larry covers in his
2:08book demagogue
2:10the Russian Revolution happened in 1917
2:12with the fall of the Romanov Dynasty
2:15from that time on leaders in the United
2:17States government watched Russia with
2:19suspicion how would communism play out
2:22would it be a threat we know now with
2:25the benefit of hindsight that it meant
2:27the death of millions of people first in
2:29Russia then in China and elsewhere it
2:32also placed the United States at odds
2:34with communist powers in what would
2:35become known as the cold war that
2:38struggle dragged much of the third world
2:39into the conflict as we vied for who
2:41would control natural resources in the
2:43southern hemisphere there was real worry
2:45that Communists would infiltrate the
2:47United States people like Harry Truman
2:50took that concern to a level of imposing
2:54the strictest loyalty codes that we had
2:57ever had for government workers were
2:59essentially it was almost assumed that
3:01you were guilty of disloyalty unless you
3:04could prove your loyalty and in Congress
3:07that took the form of the house on
3:09American Act Activities Committee which
3:11well before Joe McCarthy had been going
3:14after what they thought were coming to
3:16spies and which in their case sometimes
3:18proved to be true there were actual
3:21Spies Like Klaus Fuchs who stole nuclear
3:24secrets from the Manhattan Project and
3:26gave them to the Soviets or the
3:27controversial Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
3:30who were put to death for smuggling
3:31government secrets the house on American
3:34Activities Committee was formed in 1938
3:36before World War II began and before the
3:39Soviets became our allies they found
3:42spies the names of whom wouldn't mean
3:45much to listeners today but they were
3:48people ranging from senior people in the
3:52White House to people throughout the
3:56government and as Joe McCarthy
3:59understood well the agency of government
4:02that seemed to be most riddled with
4:06spies or at least that's the way it
4:08appeared was the U.S state Department
4:11which was the agency that was setting
4:13our foreign policy so it was
4:15understandably scary to people when we
4:17were watching Russia suddenly develop
4:19its atomic bomb when we were seeing
4:23stories of Russian expansion around the
4:26world to think that there could be
4:29Communists and spies within our own
4:32government was a scary Prospect keep
4:35that in mind today with all the movies
4:37that make light of the Cold War it may
4:39seem like the threat was overplayed but
4:42as a country we were legitimately
4:44concerned about nuclear weapons labor
4:46protests civil rights demonstrations and
4:49evolving ideas about taking care of the
4:51elderly or unemployed and people seeing
4:54Communists behind every door starting in
4:571947 federal employees had to give a
5:00loyalty oath the FBI investigated anyone
5:03thought to be even a little suspicious
5:054.8 million people were screened in six
5:08years with over 20 6 000 people
5:11investigated by the FBI perhaps the most
5:14famous person on the hunt for Communists
5:16in the government was Senator Joseph
5:17McCarthy a man who not only accused
5:20Communists but bullied strong-armed and
5:23played the media to get what he wanted
5:25and even today we still feel the Echoes
5:28of McCarthyism
5:30you're listening to the show that uses
5:32journalistic tools to look inside the
5:34Christian church we press pause on the
5:36culture wars in order to explore how we
5:39got here and how we can do better I'm
5:41Chris Starin and this is truce
5:51as a Young Man Joe McCarthy raised
5:54chickens then managed a grocery store in
5:57Wisconsin he wanted more but hadn't
6:00graduated high school so at 20 years old
6:02he went back to school and knocked out
6:05all four grades in one year then he went
6:08to college became a small town lawyer
6:09and a Circuit Judge he played cards
6:12gambled and was always in money trouble
6:14he drank heavily and was a tough boxer
6:17when World War II broke out he enlisted
6:20though his military career contains a
6:23perfect look at Joe McCarthy the good
6:26and the bad of McCarthy the good was
6:28that he had when he was running for
6:32Senate proclaimed himself World War II
6:35hero he had told stories about his
6:37exploits in the South Pacific island
6:40where he was stationed for the U.S
6:42Marine Corps his exploits going up in
6:44Planes as a tail Gunner something that
6:47folks in the media later investigated
6:49but could not corroborate when he later
6:51became a senator the man talked a big
6:53game but couldn't always produce proof
6:56when he needed it they mocked him by
6:58calling him tail Gunner Joe and they
7:00looked and thought that he his record
7:02was one of in fact being officially
7:04stationed on the ground and what the
7:06heck was he doing claiming to have been
7:08a war hero up in Plains he wasn't
7:10assigned to work in the air how could he
7:12have been a tail Gunner when the
7:14military had him on the ground for a
7:16long time people thought these stories
7:17were just more hot air from Joe McCarthy
7:20but Larry did some slow thing when I
7:22started writing my book there was a
7:25trove of all of McCarthy's personal and
7:27professional papers that his widow had
7:30left to his alma mater which was
7:32Marquette University in Milwaukee and
7:36she left them with a provision that
7:38those papers would become public when
7:41either of two things happened either
7:43when Joe McCarthy's daughter died or
7:47when this daughter who was younger than
7:49me and alive and well said yes the paper
7:52should become public for years Joe's
7:55Donner either denied request to see the
7:56documents or flat out said no but for
7:59Larry one day I got a note from the
8:03archivist at Marquette saying to our
8:05shock the daughter has said that you can
8:08have access to the papers and that the
8:10day you stop looking they go under lock
8:12and key again and surprisingly he
8:14discovered that McCarthy was telling the
8:17truth that while his official Duty was
8:20as a land-based intelligence officer he
8:23volunteered for Missions he volunteered
8:25to fly in the back of a plane as a tail
8:27Gunner and he put himself at huge risk
8:31of being shot down when he didn't have
8:33to do that he was a war hero Larry was
8:36able to find the documentary evidence
8:38that had evaded journalists for decades
8:40I think the lesson to me is if you lie
8:43often enough and Joe McCarthy lied often
8:45enough when you're telling the truth
8:47people might not believe you
8:51Joe lied in other ways for example he
8:54told people he enlisted at the bottom
8:55and then worked his way up when in fact
8:57he started as an officer before the war
9:00he told folks that he was the youngest
9:02Circuit Judge in the history of the
9:03state also not true in life as in
9:07gambling McCarthy bluffed often and when
9:10he did he went all in he was also a
9:14democrat in a red State voted for FDR
9:17three times and even liked the New Deal
9:20he saw that being a democrat in
9:22Wisconsin wasn't going to get him far so
9:25with an eye on the U.S Senate he
9:26switched parties running while still in
9:29the Marines was it legal as was made
9:32clear in rulings from the top levels of
9:34the Pentagon for soldiers to be
9:37campaigning for them to mix the military
9:39service with their politics but Joe
9:42McCarthy strung banners across his tent
9:45and across his Jeep basically
9:47proclaiming his campaign for the U.S
9:49Senate and there weren't a whole lot of
9:51votes in his Wisconsin District in his
9:54South Pacific island but back home
9:56people ate up the idea of electing a
9:58marine who was fighting for the country
10:00yes it was illegal to campaign but
10:03McCarthy was never one to let the law
10:06get in the way of what he wanted yeah so
10:08what he was doing was mailing or having
10:10his family and his friends male tens of
10:14thousands of postcards and other
10:17material through the mail as part of his
10:19campaign something that will be a theme
10:21next season Direct Mail allows people
10:24like Joe to circumvent traditional media
10:26and tell people what they want to hear
10:28without the fact Checkers getting
10:30involved and that was one of a dozen
10:33ways in which Joe McCarthy's politicking
10:36anticipated what is going on in today's
10:39politics he understood every form of the
10:43media and exploited it whether it was
10:45newspaper coverage whether it was direct
10:47mail whether it was embellishing what he
10:50was doing and assuming the Press would
10:52never catch up to his embellishments or
10:55would catch up too late McCarthy
10:57understood the media well and he used it
11:00to his benefit this time the bluff
11:02worked so he beats an entrenched Senator
11:06a long time senator from Wisconsin named
11:09LaFollette and the lafollette's work to
11:11Wisconsin what the tafts were to Ohio
11:14and what the Kennedys were to my native
11:16Massachusetts he took on an icon of the
11:19Senate beats him and then goes on to be
11:21an incredibly undistinguished first-term
11:25Junior senator who looked like he would
11:27be a one-term senator and he was
11:30sufficiently unimpressive that on the
11:34famous the most famous day in Republican
11:36party circles is the day honoring
11:39Abraham Lincoln in this case it was
11:41February 9 1950 Republican politicians
11:45are invited to give speeches all around
11:46the country and prominent senators get
11:49invited to places
11:50like Los Angeles and San Francisco New
11:54York and Boston politicians like Joe
11:57McCarthy who were total back benchers
12:00got invited in his case to Wheeling West
12:03Virginia it's this moment that launched
12:06McCarthy into the spotlight and he shows
12:09up that night in Wheeling West Virginia
12:10with a briefcase containing two speeches
12:13one was a speech on National Housing
12:16policy and had he read that speech that
12:19night 75 years later we wouldn't be here
12:22talking about Joe McCarthy but instead
12:25he reached deeper into his briefcase he
12:28pulled out a speech he waved it in the
12:30air and said I have in my hand a list of
12:34all kinds of spies at the U.S state
12:38department and in other critical places
12:39in the U.S government and these are
12:42spies who are dangerous to our country
12:43these are spies who President Truman
12:46either does know about or should have
12:48known about and these are spies that I
12:50promise I'm going to expose and weed out
12:53here is an actor reading from the speech
12:55then the bright young men who are born
12:57with silver spoons in their mouths are
13:00the ones who have been most traitorous I
13:03have in my hand a list of 205 a list of
13:06names that were made known to the
13:08Secretary of State as being members of
13:10the Communist party and who nevertheless
13:13are still working and shaping policy in
13:16the state department it's not just a
13:18claim about Communists it's also a
13:20populist statement calling members of
13:23the state department bright young men
13:24who are born with silver spoons in their
13:26mouths smearing the east and west coast
13:29Elites was a trademark of McCarthyism
13:31now what he had in his hand that night
13:33might have been his wife's grocery list
13:35it might have been a recycled set of of
13:39spies from the house on American
13:42Activities Committee but what we know he
13:44didn't have in his hand is a list of the
13:4724 Karat gold-plated spies that he
13:51claimed despite the Bluster he didn't
13:53have the goods and he never produced
13:56that list even though journalists beg
13:58for it and members of Congress wanted to
14:00see it but he learned a very important
14:03lesson that night that if you make an
14:06extraordinary charge like the government
14:08being riddled with spies
14:11that it will get coverage in every
14:13newspaper not just in America but around
14:16the world and by the time the Press
14:19catches up and tries to really look
14:21clearly at whether the people he named
14:25were spies and decides to publish their
14:28responses his stories on page one their
14:31story a day or two later is next to the
14:34corset ads on page 67. Joe McCarthy was
14:38off and running that number 205
14:41Communists is on he didn't say how he
14:44picked it it may have come from a state
14:46department letter released earlier
14:48claiming that there were 285 staffers
14:51with potentially damaging information on
14:54them and not necessarily Communists they
14:57could have been fascists people with
14:58criminal records or homosexuals in a
15:01time when it was potentially illegal to
15:03be gay there were fears that a person
15:05could be blackmailed into giving up
15:07State Secrets against the threat of
15:09being publicly outed 79 of that 285 were
15:14fired leaving
15:16206 I mean it's not exactly the 205 that
15:19Joe claimed but close enough that may
15:22have been where the number came from but
15:24who knows so I don't know what it was
15:27about the number 205 that appealed Joe
15:30McCarthy but the number as you say
15:32changed from time to time and at one
15:34point it was 57 and people speculated
15:37that it may have been that he was in a
15:39restaurant having his trademark
15:41hamburger and putting Heinz 57 sauce on
15:44it or it could have come from anywhere
15:46he sometimes also changed it to 207
15:49depending on the day there was no basis
15:51to his number and there was no magic or
15:55basis to the list that he would
15:58eventually the list that he ended up
16:00producing at various times which had
16:02different numbers and were always
16:03incomplete whatever the number imaginary
16:06or real it made McCarthy a sensation the
16:10story was picked up by newspapers all
16:11over the country and this junior Senator
16:14with no real distinction was suddenly
16:17everywhere ready to point fingers he set
16:20up an office to supposedly investigate
16:23Communists in the American government
16:24donations poured in from across the
16:26country especially from Texas where
16:29wealthy oilmen ponied up to his cause
16:31Joe forever in debt was known to pocket
16:35what he could Joe's claims were so big
16:38that he himself was investigated by a
16:40congressional committee within months so
16:43Senator Millard Tidings from Maryland
16:45was one of the most old-school and
16:48distinguished senators in that August
16:51body and he was outraged by what
16:54McCarthy was doing he felt that McCarthy
16:56was a fraud and he went after him but
16:59Tidings was no opponent for a guy who
17:04was a street fighter and a dirty player
17:06like Joe McCarthy 1950 was an election
17:09year and tidings was up for re-election
17:12something that McCarthy was able to play
17:15to his Advantage by campaigning for
17:17someone else to take his opponent's seat
17:19he did this with the same tactics that
17:21got him elected using bulk mail one
17:25publication included a photo of Tidings
17:27hanging out with a known communist the
17:30only problem is the photo wasn't real it
17:34was a composite of other pictures a fake
17:37but it did the job convincing people
17:41that Tidings should not be re-elected
17:43McCarthy when he was investigated did
17:46all they could to oppose the
17:48investigator running a no-nothing
17:50unknown candidate against Miller Tidings
17:53watching that candidate win and the same
17:56way he had done in Wisconsin when he
17:58beat Follett another Titan of the Senate
18:01went down at the hands of Joe McCarthy
18:04he did the same in 1952 with another
18:07senator who dared oppose him in return
18:09McCarthy gained power and notoriety and
18:12the backing of everyone he put into
18:15office
18:16[Music]
18:18he received around 2 000 requests to
18:21speak across the country more than all
18:23the other Senators combined his office
18:25got busy making accusations and trying
18:28to substantiate those they'd already
18:30made meanwhile Joe played the system to
18:33stay in the spotlight so he knew how the
18:36Press worked and he knew that if instead
18:38of releasing your bombshell charges
18:42um in the morning when the Press had all
18:44day to investigate then if you did it in
18:47the evening just before journalist
18:49deadline they would publish your charges
18:52in the next day's paper and then they'd
18:53start investigating them for the next
18:55day after that's paper and he knew that
18:58the counter charges the defense is never
19:02as strong as the offense and so he knew
19:05how to play The Press with deadlines he
19:07knew how to court reporter is to take
19:09them out drinking to shower Praise on
19:12them he knew journalists have egos like
19:14everybody else does and if you leak
19:17things to report reporters or made them
19:19feel special they were going to make you
19:21feel special on the front page of their
19:23newspapers using these tactics he
19:25managed to control the story for four
19:27years in 1952 the Republicans took
19:30control of the Senate and Joe McCarthy
19:32won his place at the head of the Senate
19:34investigations committee now he not only
19:37had the weight of the Senate but also a
19:40budget and they've taken over the
19:42majority and suddenly McCarthy goes from
19:45being a back bencher to being chairman
19:48of the very powerful subcommittee called
19:50the permanent subcommittee on
19:51investigations as well as chair of the
19:54overall government operations committee
19:56and he is looking for just the right
19:59aggressive young staffer to dig up the
20:03kinds of things that he felt that he
20:06needed to dig up to keep his Crusade
20:08going in terms of names of people he
20:11could accuse of being communists and in
20:13terms of what seemed like damning
20:15evidence and he finds this young
20:18ambitious brilliant lawyer in New York
20:22named Roy Cohn
20:24he was a prosecutor of the Rosenberg
20:26trial at just 23 and was every bit as
20:29aggressive as Joe as a reminder the
20:32rosenbergs were executed on charges of
20:34spying for the Communists in the HBO
20:36documentary series about Cohen bully
20:39coward victim person after person calls
20:42him the most evil man they've ever met
20:44he had a gond face with big haunting
20:47eyes he was a well-connected bulldog
20:49known not only for dodging taxes but
20:52also failing to pay for everything from
20:55dinners to expensive art he'd later go
20:58on to be a lawyer for the mob he fought
21:00legislation to give equal rights to both
21:02women and homosexuals despite himself
21:05being gay McCarthy then had to decide
21:08who to make his chief of staff cone or
21:11this other guy you've probably heard of
21:14um recent graduate of the University of
21:16Virginia law school named Robert F
21:18Kennedy yes that Robert Kennedy brother
21:21of future President John F Kennedy their
21:23father Joe was a friend of McCarthy it's
21:26possible that this posting with McCarthy
21:28seemed like a way to help the family
21:30name years earlier Joe Kennedy had
21:32advocated for appeasing the Nazis and
21:35likely didn't want to be seen as doing
21:37the same for the Communists putting his
21:39son in touch with the country's loudest
21:41anti-communist probably seemed like a
21:43good move but cone had an advantage over
21:46Kennedy he was Jewish it would be
21:49helpful for McCarthy to give him the top
21:51position to put down allegations that
21:53McCarthy was an anti-semite Joe made Roy
21:56Cohen his chief of staff leaving Bobby
21:58to his future benefit out of the
22:01spotlight and Conan McCarthy are off on
22:04what Bobby Kennedy would later describe
22:07as a toboggan ride down a steep hill
22:09with no breaks
22:12McCarthy called 546 Witnesses in just a
22:16few years many of the hearings against
22:18protocol were private and may not have
22:21included any other members of the
22:22committee except McCarthy or Cohn
22:24Witnesses were often summoned to testify
22:27the night before they were expected to
22:28appear leaving them little time to
22:31prepare or retain counsel some people
22:33chose to plead their Fifth Amendment
22:35rights and if they did McCarthy labeled
22:37them as traitors saying an innocent man
22:40does not need the Fifth Amendment the
22:42name he gave them was Fifth Amendment
22:44Communists two-thirds of his hearings
22:47going after Communists were held behind
22:49closed doors and we never got a peek at
22:52them but recently just before my book
22:55came out the transcripts of all those
22:58hearings suddenly became public there
23:01was a 50-year rule there were under lock
23:03and key for 50 years and suddenly we had
23:05a look at them and what they show is as
23:09bad as we thought that Joe McCarthy was
23:11when he went public with his hearings
23:14when he was behind closed doors and he
23:16and Roy Cohn could really run roughshod
23:20over the rights of witnesses and the
23:23ones who stood up to him not
23:25surprisingly never appeared in public
23:27session because he didn't want to have
23:29eloquent convincing witnesses there the
23:32ones who caved most easily were the ones
23:35who we saw paraded in the public
23:37sessions and all I can say is it would
23:40have been miserable I would never want
23:42to be before any Senate investigative
23:45committee but I sure as heck wouldn't
23:47have want to been before Joe McCarthy's
23:49committee and I wouldn't have want to
23:50Ben have appeared before John McCarthy
23:53in the morning when he was stone cold
23:56sober but I definitely wouldn't want to
23:59appeared before him in the afternoon
24:01after he had had several drinks at lunch
24:04and he was often what was clear from the
24:07transcripts not so sober it's difficult
24:10to quantify the effect these men had on
24:12the country it may not sound that bad to
24:15have to testify before a hearing but it
24:18inflicted a lot of stress One Voice of
24:21America engineer named Raymond Kaplan
24:23threw himself in front of a truck rather
24:25than appeared before the hearings
24:26another man named Bob LaFollette from
24:29the Congressional Dynasty mentioned
24:31earlier shot himself after having fired
24:33a staffer suspected of being a communist
24:35but not telling the FBI we're talking
24:38about intense social pressure this went
24:41on for years and it's hard for us to
24:44appreciate what it meant to be labeled a
24:45communist or even a fifth amendment
24:48communist it meant potentially losing
24:50all of your friends being asked to leave
24:52your church a divorce your children
24:54harassed at school not just loss of
24:57employment but becoming unemployable we
25:00can just imagine if your name is
25:02splashed across a newspaper during a Red
25:05Scare era and you're being accused not
25:08just of being a communist which was bad
25:10left them but you're being accused of
25:13being a communist who sold out your
25:14country that was not something that was
25:17going to stand you well in terms of your
25:20future and your family's future and
25:23McCarthy ruined lives it was a serious
25:25charge leveled willy-nilly by people
25:28with connections to him it was almost a
25:30game he was a great sort of fairly well
25:33kind of guy and he could be leveling
25:37scalding charges against somebody during
25:38the day in his subcommittee and invite
25:42them out for a drink at night because it
25:43all seemed like a game and he thought
25:45everybody understands this is the way
25:48politics Works in Washington and in
25:51America so my book was called demagogue
25:53and my book could have easily have been
25:55called bully because bully is a much
25:56simpler and more easily understood way
25:59of saying the same thing it is somebody
26:01who is like a schoolyard bully and
26:04that's what Joe McCarthy was though he
26:06left a wake of Destruction he was
26:08immensely popular about half the country
26:11backed McCarthy in what he was doing he
26:14had powerful supporters some of whom
26:16will become important next season like
26:18Howard Jarvis who sparked the tax revolt
26:20in the 1970s and phylish laughly the one
26:22woman force of nature who stopped the
26:24Equal Rights Amendment and created the
26:26pro-family movement they were fans of
26:29McCarthy but so were Walt Disney John
26:31Wayne and several heads at the Hollywood
26:33Studios there were people in the FBI
26:37including at the beginning at least Jay
26:39Edgar Hoover who thought McCarthy was
26:41doing more good than harm Hoover and
26:43McCarthy met regularly for lunch and
26:45frequently traded information back and
26:47forth Hoover with either himself or have
26:51his people leak material to McCarthy and
26:54again in the papers that we were
26:56discussing earlier these papers
26:57McCarthy's personal and professional
26:59papers they would have stamps across
27:02many of the documents saying top secret
27:04and it was very clear that those papers
27:06had been leaked by somebody to Joe
27:08McCarthy and it's also clear from notes
27:11that he wrote in the margins of some of
27:13the papers it's pretty clear that the
27:16leaker was doing leaking with the
27:19authorization at the very top of the FBI
27:21meaning J Edgar Hoover the leaks
27:24demonstrate yet another hypocrisy in the
27:26life of Joseph McCarthy McCarthy's going
27:28after people for leaking sensitive
27:31documents from the US government and on
27:33the other hand he was using to make
27:36those charges sensitive documents from
27:38the US government that were leaked to
27:39him many of which were just speculation
27:41you know an FBI agent might compile a
27:44report on somebody and have it be
27:47something that was entirely
27:49inconclusive but if McCarthy said the
27:53FBI has a file on this person
27:56the fact that it was inconclusive never
27:58made it into the newspaper story it was
28:00that the FBI had a file on them and that
28:02was good enough for Joe McCarthy and
28:04sadly it was good enough to for too many
28:05reporters the witch hunts continued for
28:08Years first with his unofficial Bluster
28:10and then with the full weight of the
28:12United States Senate generating suicides
28:15divorces harassment and fear but the
28:17nightmare could not last forever as some
28:20of his enemies knew all they had to do
28:22was give McCarthy enough rope and he'd
28:25hang himself when he did they'd be ready
28:28I'll continue the story after these
28:31messages
28:34coming October 6th from the studio that
28:36brought you the rise and fall of Mars
28:38Hill and the bulletin be afraid is a
28:40podcast that will take you on a journey
28:42into the heart of one of the most
28:43popular genres of contemporary film and
28:45television horror
28:47this podcast isn't about how to avoid
28:49fear how to leverage it or even whether
28:51it's okay to be afraid this podcast is
28:54an exploration of fear faith and stories
28:57that scare the Daylights out of us I'm
28:59cutter Callaway your host join me as I
29:01talk with major Hollywood filmmakers
29:03leading psychologists and even an
29:05exorcist or two subscribe today at
29:07morect.com be afraid in the 1950s Dwight
29:11Eisenhower was one of the most beloved
29:13people in the United States so popular
29:15that both the Democrats and Republicans
29:18courted him to run for president this of
29:20course was thanks to a success leading
29:22the American efforts during World War II
29:24Ike was no fan of Joe McCarthy not since
29:28McCarthy went after his friend George
29:30Marshall who served as chief of staff
29:32for the U.S army Secretary of Defense
29:34and Secretary of State he was a hero of
29:37the Allied Victory yet McCarthy accused
29:40him of being a communist that was really
29:43offensive it was untrue of course but it
29:45was really offensive to Dwight
29:46Eisenhower and Dwight Eisenhower her
29:48ahead during the campaign a speech that
29:50he was going to use to attack Joe
29:52McCarthy and defend Senator Marshall and
29:55his political advisors convinced him not
29:57to give that speech and that was the
29:59first time for entirely political
30:01motives because he wanted to be
30:02president and he was worried that he
30:04might not get the nomination or might
30:06not get the electoral votes he needed if
30:09the important state of Wisconsin where
30:11Joe McCarthy was such a powerful figure
30:13voted against him so Eisenhower kept the
30:16speech in his briefcase John McCarthy
30:19got away without being attacked by
30:21Eisenhower which could have been very
30:22damaging to him given how popular
30:24Eisenhower was and when Eisenhower
30:27finally made it into the White House
30:29Eisenhower's trusted advisor his brother
30:32Milton Eisenhower whispered into
30:35Dwight's ear saying give up a little of
30:38your political capital and take on that
30:41bully Joe McCarthy but it took years for
30:43him to do it Ike's strategy was simple
30:46give McCarthy an enough rope and he'll
30:49hang himself but in the intervening year
30:51between Eisenhower taking office and
30:53McCarthy's downfall many lives were
30:56impacted and I think a president who I
30:58greatly respect white Eisenhower who did
31:00a lot of great things for this country I
31:02think one of his biggest faults was
31:05failing to go after Joe McCarthy the way
31:07his brother told him he ought to it led
31:10Larry Ty to write that Eisenhower was
31:12quote McCarthy's enabler in Chief it's
31:15often said that McCarthy's downfall
31:17began during the famous Army McCarthy
31:19hearings held before Congress Larry
31:21argues that it really started four
31:23months earlier when tail Gunner Joe
31:26picked an enemy capable of besting him
31:29he attacked Brigadier General Ralph's
31:31wicker who at first had been a
31:33Cooperative witness someone McCarthy
31:36thought to be on his side essentially a
31:39dentist suspected of being a communist
31:40had been promoted by his Wicker when
31:43McCarthy learned this he badgered him
31:45publicly here is a reenactment from the
31:47trans script published in the New York
31:49Times General let's try and be truthful
31:51I'm going to keep you here as long as
31:54you keep hedging and hemming I am not
31:57hedging or hauling I am not hauling and
32:00I don't like to have anyone impugn my
32:02honesty which you just did either your
32:05honesty or your intelligence I can't
32:07help impuning one or the other see how
32:11nasty he could be this was not good
32:13publicity for McCarthy especially once
32:16the television cameras were rolling and
32:18Americans got a taste of his
32:20shamelessness zwicker was a war hero but
32:23McCarthy treated him with contempt
32:25people noticed and McCarthy started
32:28losing public support matters only
32:30escalated as Joe ratcheted up his
32:32accusations of the army I think he went
32:34after the Army because it had all gone
32:37to his head he was enough of a
32:38narcissist that he thought that there
32:40was nobody too big for him to take on
32:43and he said that there were spies in the
32:47Army and specifically at a base called
32:51Fort Monmouth which was a critical
32:53intelligence base of the US military he
32:56said those spies were dangerous they
32:58were spies connected to the rosenbergs
33:02who were the atomic spies in America and
33:05he sort of used every heartstring that
33:07he could imagine tugging at to go after
33:09the military but the United States had
33:11only recently been victorious in World
33:13War II and the Army was at Peak
33:16popularity if McCarthy had read the tea
33:18leaves he would have seen that taking on
33:21generals isn't the best strategy if you
33:23want to survive as a politician in
33:25America and I think that that sort of
33:29set the template McCarthy takes on the
33:33military and the Senate decides it's
33:34going to investigate this and it holds
33:38these very famous arguably the most
33:40famous hearings other than maybe
33:41Watergate in the history of the US
33:43Congress these famous hearings have
33:45became known as the Army McCarthy
33:47hearings so famous in fact that 30
33:49million Americans watched the first day
33:51of proceedings on television another 50
33:54million listened on radio or followed
33:56via newspaper this thing was everywhere
33:58for 36 Days roycone had gone from being
34:02an asset to a liability for Joe McCarthy
34:05so Roy Khan like John McCarthy believed
34:07that there were no limits to the power
34:10he had and he had a young assistant and
34:14whether or not the assistant Roy Cohn
34:16although he never publicly came out he
34:19died of AIDS and he was clearly gay and
34:21whether this young assistant named David
34:24shine was just his pal or was his lover
34:28we'll never know when it doesn't matter
34:30remember this was a time in the United
34:32States when acting on homosexual desires
34:34could be against the law something
34:36McCarthy and Cohen played upon during
34:38their hearings igniting what became
34:40known as the lavender scare sort of a
34:43parallel to the Red Scare where the
34:45government went to work removing
34:46suspected homosexuals from their
34:48positions but What mattered was Roy Cohn
34:51intervened when the Army drafted David
34:55shine to give him all kinds of special
34:58treatment partly so he could come to New
35:00York and party with Roy Cohn and Roy
35:04Cohn took on the chief of staff of the
35:07Army and the Army establishment in
35:12trying to get special treatment for his
35:14friend and this was fine when it was
35:17happening behind the scenes and when
35:19nobody could see what he was doing but
35:21when it came out during those Army
35:23McCarthy hearings Roy Cohn fell even
35:25harder than Joe McCarthy did and it was
35:29partly what was said in those hearings
35:30and the fact that McCarthy's evidence
35:32didn't stand up and it was partly that
35:35Joe McCarthy in front of the glare of
35:38these TV cameras looked like a fat
35:42balding guy who looked a little bit like
35:46the bully that people could imagine from
35:49their school grounds he was no longer
35:51this Noble Senator taking on the Red
35:54Menace he was a wild man on your TV
35:57screens and I think by the end of those
36:00hearings people who watched it as
36:02importantly as people who listened to it
36:04decided that Joe McCarthy wasn't
36:06somebody they could go to the bank with
36:08and the fact that behind the scenes
36:10President Eisenhower was helping the
36:13army fight back and the fact that there
36:15was a brilliant lawyer from Boston named
36:18Joe Welch who asked the question that
36:22resonated Across America here's how it
36:25came about McCarthy attacked one of
36:27Welch's attorneys alleging that he had
36:30ties to the Communist Party Welch
36:32carefully calmly fought back here he is
36:37defending his younger colleague it is I
36:40regret to say equally true that I fear
36:42he shall always bear a scar
36:47needlessly inflicted by you
36:50if it were in my power to forgive you
36:54for your Reckless cruelty I would do so
36:58I like to think I'm a gentleman
37:01but your
37:06forgiveness
37:08will have to come
37:10from someone other than me McCarthy sits
37:14there with a comb over looking
37:16disheveled slowly choosing his words
37:19he tries to win sympathy for Roy Cohn
37:21but it isn't working so Joe attempts
37:25another jab at Welch's team only to get
37:27a sharp rebuke this is the famous line
37:30from Welch
37:34knows I meant to do you a no person and
37:38if I did I beg your part let us not
37:42assassinate this lad further let's look
37:46you have done enough have you no sense
37:49of decency sir at long laugh have you
37:53left no sense of reasons it seems that
37:57this was the moment when people watching
37:59television across the country saw
38:01McCarthy for who he was a demagogue a
38:05bully who attacked when anyone called
38:06him out for breaking the law or code of
38:08ethics have you no sense of decency the
38:12hearing continued with other members of
38:14the panel choosing to take Jabs at
38:16McCarthy I think
38:19the call my son
38:21my director my chief of staff I've been
38:24the sloppiest and most dangerously
38:26handled file that I have ever thought of
38:29since I've been in the government
38:31all right
38:33Botanical Germans now you can run away
38:34if you like Stu you can run away if you
38:37like
38:37eventually the meeting is adjourned the
38:40committee stands and leaves but McCarthy
38:43keeps talking the cameras no longer see
38:46him just a sea of men heading for the
38:49door he no longer has the attention of
38:51the American people
38:53you shouldn't do that
39:02apparently every time anybody says
39:05anything against anybody working for
39:07Sandra McCarthy
39:09accusing them of communism
39:11[Music]
39:20it was that question whether or not he
39:23had any decency that put the last nail
39:25in the coffin McCarthy went from being
39:28the most popular bully in the country to
39:30toxic to the point that literally nobody
39:33sat with him during lunch they skirted
39:36around him every day in the Senate he
39:38understood that he was being shunned by
39:41the very Senators he had helped elect
39:43and he became he went back to being even
39:47worse than the back bencher he became a
39:50bit of a pariah nobody especially wanted
39:52to be seen with him nobody wanted to go
39:54out with him nobody wanted to schmooze
39:56with him and nobody wanted to let him
39:58vent his charges in their hearing rooms
40:01and so while he continued to serve in
40:04the Senate he served like he was wearing
40:07a Scarlet Letter McCarthy was now an
40:09outsider though he still had a job his
40:12career was basically over this was
40:15almost the end of the story for Jill
40:16McCarthy though Roy Cohn his young
40:19assistant continued to have have
40:21influence he faded from public view for
40:23a while he went back home to New York he
40:27became over the years one of the most
40:29powerful lawyers and political fixers in
40:34New York history cone went on to
40:36represent members of the mob and Rupert
40:38Murdoch the owner of Fox News he also
40:41made influential friends like Nancy
40:43Reagan people like Andy Warhol Cole
40:46Barons and New York politicians showed
40:48up at his birthday party at Studio 54.
40:50he was eventually disbarred for
40:52professional ethics violations about a
40:55half century after he had been John
40:57McCarthy's Protege a young guy in the
41:01real estate business in New York was
41:04setting himself up for all that he would
41:06have to encounter in the Cutthroat world
41:08of New York real estate and this guy's
41:11father a guy named Fred Trump decided
41:14that his young son Donald Trump needed
41:17the perfect tutor and how to play
41:19hardball politics
41:21and who better to tutor somebody on that
41:23than Roy Cohn who had learned at the
41:26feet of the master Joe McCarthy and he
41:29passed on all of those lessons directly
41:31to Donald Trump you can see the
41:34crossover influences from McCarthy to
41:36Trump the ability to control the
41:38narrative being told in the news if you
41:40say something loud enough and often
41:42enough it becomes truth in the minds of
41:44the public another one was if you make
41:47an outrageous charge today as the Press
41:50is out there investigating whether that
41:51charge stands up
41:53If they raise any questions raise uh
41:56toss another grenade tomorrow and
41:58they'll forget yesterday's charge and it
42:01is a very definite lesson on how to play
42:05The Press make the press your friend
42:07when you can and when they're repeating
42:09your charges and when they start
42:11questioning you rather than the people
42:13who you are lobbying charges against
42:15attack the Press Roy Cohn died from
42:18complications with AIDS in 1986 though
42:21he insisted that he didn't have AIDS but
42:23liver cancer even at the end of his life
42:25trying to control the narrative Senator
42:28McCarthy didn't live so long he was sick
42:31even during the Army hearings going in
42:33and out of the hospital his alcohol
42:35consumption ever increasing often
42:37replacing food and when he did eat it
42:40was cheeseburgers he died at just 48
42:44years old the cause of his demise listed
42:46on his death certificate was hepatitis
42:48in a poetic way both Cohen and McCarthy
42:52tried to change the narratives around
42:53their death in truth it was liquor that
42:56got McCarthy patrons of the show can
42:58hear a bonus featuring Larry Thai
43:00discussing how he found the documentary
43:02proof for the real cause of Joe's death
43:04as Larry said we in the United States
43:06have a long history of demagogues
43:08bullies who gain our attention entertain
43:11us and leave a wake of Destruction in
43:13their path we'll meet more of them in
43:16season six demagogues provide easy
43:18answers but not substance can we resist
43:22their star power long enough to see them
43:24for who they are can we call them what
43:27they are even though they Champion our
43:29causes maybe the most important takeaway
43:31that will prepare us for next season is
43:34this
43:35when we Face a credible threat like
43:37communism how will we react the Soviet
43:40Union threatened the United States with
43:42nuclear war killing tens of millions of
43:45their own citizens suppressed media
43:47disappeared imprisoned or ejected
43:49religious people and gobbled up Eastern
43:52Europe when we're faced with a credible
43:54threat are we going to be willing to do
43:56the hard work of dealing with it in a
43:58righteous way or will we rely on easy
44:01answers scapegoats and the protection of
44:05a demagogue
44:10[Music]
44:20special thanks to Larry Thai he's a
44:23fascinating man and super patient he was
44:25kind enough to come on even though he's
44:27in the midst of deadlines he has a new
44:29book coming out this spring called the
44:30Jasmine exploring how Duke Ellington
44:32Satchmo Armstrong and Count Basie shaped
44:35the Civil Rights Movement he's also
44:36working on a book about Jewish resistors
44:38to the Holocaust I am hard at work on
44:40season six good things take time God
44:43willing next season will tell the story
44:44of how evangelicals tied themselves to
44:46the Republican party it's going really
44:49well I've already recorded with a bunch
44:51of fascinating guests but the story is
44:53super complicated and I want to get it
44:55right also since I have a full-time job
44:58I need to give myself enough completed
45:00episodes so I don't have any more
45:01stressful days trying to keep up this
45:03season I'm going to create a generous
45:05buffer subscribe so you get every new
45:08episode as it's released and if you'd
45:10like an email reminder when the new
45:11season starts you can sign up for the
45:12email list on the website at
45:14trucepodcast.com I'd love to do the show
45:17full time but for now I've got to keep
45:19driving a school bus to keep food on the
45:21table you can help me reach the goal on
45:23patreon venmo PayPal or via check
45:25details are in your show notes or at
45:27trucepodcast.com donate and if you give
45:30via patreon you'll hear more of my
45:32interview with Larry Thai thanks so much
45:35for your continued support truce is a
45:37production of truce media LLC God
45:39willing we'll talk again soon I'm Chris
45:42sarin and this is truce
45:47foreign
45:49foreign

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