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Trinity vs Oneness — The Most In-Depth Breakdown Online (50 mins) — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:07welcome to reasoning Through the Bible
0:09my name's Glenn and I'm here with Steve
0:11what we normally do is a verse by verse
0:13Bible study through the word of God but
0:15today we're going to do a topical study
0:17on a a doctrinal question that's been
0:19around for quite a while and it involves
0:21the Trinity and it also involves
0:24something called Oneness or sometimes
0:26it's called Jesus only or sometimes
0:29Oneness
0:30Pentecostalism and so we thought Steve
0:33that we'd cover this today and it's a
0:36very important controversy because one
0:39there's people that get quite emotional
0:40over this and two it deals with the
0:43nature of God and it also gets into how
0:46we're saved so that's why it gets to be
0:48important and
0:50because the two views sort of sound
0:53similar in some instances then people
0:57sometimes get them confused and so
1:00without some clear explanation then
1:02sometimes it's hard so I what I'm going
1:04to do
1:05today is to talk about what is the
1:10positions what did how did these get
1:13originated where did they start from and
1:16then what do they teach and why is the
1:20distinctions important and what's the
1:23correct view so again the distinction is
1:25between the Trinity Father Son and Holy
1:28Spirit compared to a view called Oneness
1:33or the Oneness view of God sometimes
1:35called Jesus only Pentecostalism things
1:37like that yeah and I want to just note
1:40that the document that we're going
1:42through here will be up on our resources
1:44page and this particular uh uh video
1:48sluh podcast will be under our uh
1:52essential non-essential Doctrine uh page
1:58right so what's just a quick summary of
2:02what the positions are and then we'll
2:03get into a lot of the detail
2:06trinitarians believe that there's one
2:08God and three persons that the three
2:11persons Father Son and Holy Spirit are
2:14the one God whereas a Oneness person
2:17would believe there's one
2:19God and one person so a Oneness person
2:23would deny that there's three persons in
2:25God would deny the Trinity and there's
2:28verses that that get used to discuss
2:31this so that's in a quick summary and so
2:35what I want to do again is talk about
2:36the origins of these positions and then
2:40what are the distinctions and why it's
2:42important yeah and there's also another
2:44name for it not just Oneness but isn't
2:46it also called modalism modalism uh
2:51sabellianism we'll meet a guy named
2:53sellus today and who lived in uh the
2:56first centuries of the church so again
2:59many names Oneness Pentecostalism
3:01modalism sabellianism things like that
3:05and so before we get into too much of it
3:09let me say
3:11this any given one person or even any
3:15given One Church may not believe exactly
3:19like what I'm going to present today and
3:21what we're going to present today it and
3:23it's because again there's people all
3:25over the map on all these doctrines so
3:27if we say trinitarians always believe
3:29ABC
3:30and Oneness always believe this and that
3:34yeah any given One Church may or may not
3:36believe exactly that way but what I'm
3:38going to do is I've I've got the
3:40research and I'm going to give the
3:42historical backgrounds and the vast
3:44majority of these two camps believe what
3:47I'm going to present
3:48today and so with that one of the first
3:52things is I want to talk about common
3:54ground Common Ground what are the things
3:58that both of these groups believe
4:00cuz that's important to do so if you
4:02were to talk to a trinitarian or a
4:04Oneness
4:06person both of them would say the
4:08following things that there is one and
4:10only one God both of them would say that
4:13one and only one God they would both say
4:16the father is God they would both say
4:19Jesus is God and they would both say the
4:21holy spirit is God they would both say
4:24that Jesus is the Virgin born only
4:26begotten Son of God Jesus is both God
4:29and human they would both say Jesus is
4:32the only man to conquer sin and death
4:35Jesus death on the cross pays for our
4:37sins Jesus rose bodily from the dead
4:41Jesus is the head of creation and the
4:43head of the church God is not limited in
4:46time God knows the future with certainty
4:49and can
4:50foreordain uh and plan things with
4:52certainty and they would both say that
4:54the Bible is the source of all spiritual
4:57truth and is inherent so there's a lot
5:00of common ground here there's a lot of
5:02common ground and specifically around
5:04this idea of okay yeah Jesus Is God and
5:07the father is God and the Holy Spirit is
5:10God they would all say that and they
5:12would all say we're only saved through
5:14Jesus and so a lot of people would say
5:16okay well then what's the problem well
5:18the problem is because there's still
5:19some major areas of disagreement uh for
5:23example if we look at number four here
5:27on this list number four on my list was
5:30Jesus is both God and human well both
5:34these camps would say that but what the
5:38distinction is going to be one of the
5:39distinctions is going to be that a
5:42trinitarian would say Jesus is God and
5:45human in one person and that the the
5:48statements and the acts the things that
5:51Jesus do does in the New Testament and
5:55the things that Jesus says and teaches
5:58are together in this one one person so
6:00that the God man the combined person
6:04that has a
6:06distinct divine nature and distinct
6:08human nature are speaking as one person
6:12whereas a Oneness person is going to
6:13make a much more hard
6:16separation between the man and the God
6:19for example in John chapter 17 the
6:22entire chapter is a prayer where Jesus
6:25is praying to the father in John 17 the
6:28whole prayer the whole chapters of
6:30prayer a trinitarian would say that the
6:35person of Jesus that is both Divine and
6:37human is
6:39speaking whereas a Oneness person says
6:42oh God can't talk to
6:44himself therefore John 17 whenever Jesus
6:48speaks praise to the father it's the
6:50human speaking and not the God speaking
6:53so one this person would say yes there's
6:56two Natures that he's human and divine
6:59but they'll point to the places where
7:01like for example in John 17 where Jesus
7:03is praying to the father and say though
7:05that's that's only the human speaking
7:08now when you say that only the human is
7:12speaking uh are you referring that what
7:15at that point in time it is only Jesus
7:19as the human that is going through that
7:21prayer and at that particular point in
7:23time that God is not in heaven or can
7:28you flesh that out just a little bit
7:30what does that mean that it's only the
7:32human portion that's speaking the the uh
7:36again both these camps would say that
7:38Jesus as as a person is both 100% human
7:44and 100% God the trinitarian would say
7:47that when he speaks and teaches it's
7:50both the human and the Divine okay a
7:53trinitarian would say for example when
7:55Jesus gets tired and falls
7:58asleep well that's human because God
8:02doesn't doesn't sleep right right and
8:07when Jesus is born as a baby obviously
8:09his physical body Grew From a baby it
8:12grew into a man well God doesn't grow
8:15and get bigger right so a trinitarian
8:18would say yeah there's some distinctions
8:21there between the the human and the
8:23Divine but when Jesus speaks and teaches
8:28and does miracles
8:29that's both the Divine and the human
8:32speaking and teaching and doing Miracles
8:34together whereas a Oneness person says
8:39okay Jesus as a man can talk to God but
8:44as a as as deity as God he can't talk to
8:49himself and so just uh a little bit is
8:52are they saying that uh that they're
8:54putting the god part of Jesus on hold or
8:57on pause while he
9:00interacting in these various areas that
9:01you talked about say it's more of a hard
9:04separation it's it's more of a hard
9:06separation where where the human can act
9:08with
9:09with they they would Oneness would say
9:12uh the the man Jesus would always act in
9:15accordance to God he doesn't sin but he
9:18can act independently of God in the
9:20sense that the human says things that
9:23the God is not
9:24saying okay right and and vice versa
9:27that God can speak in in jesus' terms
9:30and and not the the the man and so you
9:34could probably already start to see some
9:35of the questions that would arise right
9:38so that's again that list there is what
9:41we would both agree the trinitarians and
9:44the Oneness people Jesus Is God there's
9:47only one God one and only one God Jesus
9:50died on a cross he rose from the dead
9:52he's the only way to Salvation all we
9:55would all agree on that so let's talk
9:57about what are the origins of of the
9:59Oneness theology what are the ens there
10:02was a man named sabellius who was lived
10:06in the early centuries of the church who
10:09taught this same Doctrine it's that's
10:11why it's sometimes called
10:13sabellianism named after this man cellus
10:16well he was excommunicated from
10:19Christianity in the year 220 ad there
10:21was a trial he was convicted of heresy
10:24and excommunicated from the church well
10:26that that's just a historical fact and
10:29and our listeners can look up sabellius
10:31and hear the story on that but again 220
10:34ad is the first origins of Oneness
10:38Pentecostalism or at least Oneness
10:40teaching and it was moved out of the
10:43church in 220 and remember that year 220
10:46it gets to be important later modern
10:48Oneness teaching and it wasn't really
10:52taught for 1800 years modern Oneness
10:55teaching came in in the year 1913 in Los
10:58Angeles with a man named RT
11:01McAllister now little bit about the
11:05history here of what was going on in
11:08California in about this time there was
11:10a movement in California in 19 I forget
11:16the exact year
11:171906 1908 1905 somewhere is in there
11:22where it was called the Aza Street
11:24Revival and it happened on isua street
11:28isua street and there's this one
11:30building on this one street in Los
11:32Angeles where there was this revival
11:34that was going on and this is where the
11:36modern tongues movement began modern
11:40Pentecostalism as a movement originated
11:43in the isua street revivals in Los
11:46Angeles in
11:471906 and so that again that's just
11:50historical fact I even went up and
11:52looked at all of the uh biblical
11:56commentaries I could find that were
11:58printed prior to 1900 and looked up the
12:01common passages that what Pentecostals
12:04would hold to be supporting of their
12:07position and like tongues and things
12:10like this the older commentaries prior
12:13to 1900 go through those passages don't
12:16speak like the Post isua Street Revival
12:19commentaries do so all of the modern
12:23tongues movement and miraculous sign
12:26gifts movement pentec hostile
12:29denominations Trace their modern roots
12:32to the isua Street Revival in 1905
12:351906 now I've also heard another uh
12:38thing referred to it's known as the
12:40latter rain does this anything fit in
12:44here with this latter rain movement as
12:46well latter rain was a submovement of
12:50Pentecostalism at large and the latter
12:53rain movement believed that there's
12:56there's a verse in the Old Testament
12:57that talks about the early and the
12:59Reigns in the sense of God blessing
13:02people and again if you're a farmer or
13:04Rancher rain is a blessing right so so
13:08what they were holding was God was now
13:10pouring out blessings in these latter
13:12days so the name latter Reign was a
13:17portion of Pentecostalism that was hold
13:20that God is pouring down new
13:22messages and there was a man for example
13:25one of them was a man named William
13:26brandham that was one of the his some of
13:29his followers are still around yeah came
13:32out of this Oneness Pentecostal SL
13:34latter rain movement so Oneness and
13:37latter rain are not exactly one to one
13:40the same but some of the same people
13:42were were in it okay and so uh so again
13:46modern Pentecostalism 1905 1906 1908 in
13:51Los Angeles isua Street revivals a few
13:53years after that
13:551913 one of those Pentecostal
13:59preachers and teachers a man named
14:00McAllister came up with Oneness
14:04teachings and immediately after that the
14:07Assemblies of God which also traced
14:09their roots to isusa Street Revival uh
14:12separated from the Oneness people the
14:14Assemblies of God as a denomination
14:16declared Oneness to be heresy and
14:18excommunicated it from their their
14:21denomination so the the where do we find
14:25Oneness today the the main largest
14:29denomination is a denomination named the
14:33United Pentecostal Church International
14:35that is a denomination that's a one this
14:37church there's also a lot of churches
14:40that call themselves Apostolic or
14:42there's an Apostolic movement and many
14:46of those if not most of those are
14:47independent churches so often times if
14:50you see a church with the name Apostolic
14:53in it almost always that's going to be a
14:55Oneness church I mean again I I don't
14:57know every Church in the world world and
14:59there there's possibly probably some out
15:03there with the name Apostolic that
15:05aren't Oneness but they're the exception
15:07and not the rule almost all of the
15:09churches that call themselves Apostolic
15:12or United Pentecostal are all Oneness
15:14churches now I also have to hit this
15:17point there's
15:20Pentecostalism okay and as a subset of
15:24that is Oneness I I've not met anyone
15:27that was a Oneness person that was not
15:30Pentecostal but there are within
15:33Pentecostalism there's
15:35trinitarians and there's Oneness people
15:38so there's Pentecostals that believe in
15:41a lot of the things Pentecostals do sign
15:43movements and tongues and things like
15:45this that are
15:46trinitarian and there's also
15:48Pentecostals that are oness so we can't
15:51say when we use the term Oneness
15:52Pentecostal it's just because almost all
15:54of the Wess people are Pentecostal yeah
15:57but it's not the case that almost all
15:59the Pentecostals are on us right so I
16:01just always have to say that so that's
16:03the origins early
16:061900s uh several different Pentecostal
16:08groups rose out of this isua Street
16:10Revival there was some shaking out of
16:13who believed what and the oness people
16:16were and the trinitarians separated now
16:19so what what does Oneness teach so most
16:22of the quotes I'm fixing to give are I
16:24want to intentionally give quotes from
16:26their sources right so most of these
16:28come from a book called The Oneness of
16:31God by a man named David Bernard David
16:34Bernard was and is a high leader in the
16:38United Pentecostal church and this book
16:40is one of the book that they use to
16:42teach Oneness Doctrine so I'm getting
16:45this from the source and doing my
16:46absolute best to lay out okay exactly
16:50what does one this Pentecostalism teach
16:52and then afterwards we'll say what is
16:54what does the Trinity teach so one is
16:57Pentecostal would say that the Bible
16:59uses the term Son of God but never uses
17:03the term God the son son of God
17:06according to Oneness is a physical
17:09incarnation of the one God the one
17:12person of God or the way that God
17:15appeared to mankind Son of God always
17:17refers to the humanity of Jesus and
17:21never the deity so a West person would
17:24say that if you're reading along in the
17:26gospels and it says Son of God
17:29that's talking about the humanity of
17:31Jesus and not the deity of
17:34Jesus so they again make a they would
17:37hold Jesus Is God and Jesus is man but
17:41they make this what I would call is a
17:42hard separation so again from their
17:45materials Son of God is the humanity of
17:49Jesus not the deity of Jesus uh Point
17:52number two the father existed before the
17:54son the son had a in one is teaching the
17:58son had a beginning point and will have
18:00an ending Son of God is a temporary role
18:04that has a beginning and an end and
18:06again quoting Bernard quote except as a
18:09foreordained plan in the mind of God the
18:12son did not have a pre-existence before
18:15the conception in the womb of
18:17Mary Son of God pre-existed in thought
18:20but not in substance unquote so really
18:24important point to remember here in
18:26their teaching is that the the way it
18:29works is the father was God and he
18:32existed and then there was a point in
18:35time namely when Mary the Virgin Mary uh
18:41was uh con had a child conceived that's
18:45when the son began and the son did not
18:47exist prior to that the father then
18:50became the son and that the son is now a
18:53temporary role that will have an end and
18:55we'll see that in a minute uh Point
18:57number B the Son of God had a
19:01beginning the son was begotten on a
19:04specific day in time there was a time
19:07when the sun did not exist God
19:09prophesied about the sun's future
19:11existence and God brought the sun into
19:15the world sometime after the creation of
19:17the
19:17Angels right so the next one son of God
19:21refers to a specific role that God
19:24temporarily assumed for the purpose of
19:26redemption when the reason for the the
19:28sunship cease to exist God who is Jesus
19:32will cease acting in his role as son the
19:35sunship will be submerged back into the
19:38greatness of God who will return to his
19:41original role as father Creator and
19:43ruler of all close quote so that lays
19:46out what Oneness actually teaches the
19:50father was the
19:53original manifestation of God he then
19:57becomes the son
19:59at a point in time and there will come a
20:02time where it goes back to
20:05being the father again and
20:08so also in in that D quote let me just
20:11point this out right there in the middle
20:13of that D quote look at that it says the
20:16sunship ceased to exist God and they put
20:19Jesus in parenthesis it's because in
20:22Oneness teaching the name of God is
20:26Jesus whereas they would say in the Old
20:28Testament Yahweh is more of a title
20:31that's not really his name okay and so I
20:35am that I am in in Exodus chapter 3
20:37that's that's not a name according to
20:39Oneness the name is Jesus so when a
20:43that's why a lot of times the movement
20:44it's called Jesus only and and what
20:47they're saying is the name of God is
20:49Jesus so I want to interject in in here
20:53a
20:54question uh which our listeners and
20:56viewers might
20:57have what do they do in that case there
21:02so scripture is very clear that Jesus is
21:05seated at the right hand of the father
21:08today this sounds like they're saying
21:11that Jesus is is is is
21:14seated by himself serving a role as
21:20Jesus God and uh I guess whenever that
21:24role ceases is whenever he comes back
21:26again and things are set right I mean
21:28how does that come about and how do they
21:30reconcile that particular view the the
21:33seated at the right hand of the father
21:35part you can do if you again separate
21:38the humanity and the deity if you say
21:41there Jesus is both God and man but the
21:44man does this the man Jesus the son of
21:48God who is the humanity can sit at the
21:50right hand of the
21:51father but not as God because God can't
21:55sit next to himself so that's what
21:57they're they're saying then then from
21:59that verse then in heaven today you have
22:02Jesus the man sited at at the right hand
22:06of Jesus the father well and and you're
22:09already starting to see some of the
22:11biblical issues with this position and
22:14this is why again sabellius was
22:17excommunicated the Assemblies of God
22:19threw this out of them and and there
22:21there gets to be a number of
22:24problems so um back to the quotes just
22:27to make sure we're were presenting their
22:30position accurately quoting their
22:32materials Point number e after Satan is
22:35cast into the Lake of Fire and all sin
22:37is judged at the last judgment in
22:39Revelation 20 there will be no further
22:42need for the son to exercise the Throne
22:44of power Jesus Christ will cease acting
22:47in his sunship role and will be God
22:50forever close quote next quote the
22:53sunship is temporary and not Eternal in
22:57the Bible we are told when the sunship
22:59began and when the ministry of the
23:01sunship will
23:02end so again clearly saying there was
23:07God existed as the father in the Old
23:10Testament when Mary gets pregnant
23:12becomes the son the one person of God
23:15becomes the son that role continues
23:18until Revelation 20 when he goes back to
23:22being not the sun anymore the sun ceases
23:25to
23:26exist so that's basic basically the
23:28outline from their materials of what
23:31oness teaches they would then follow up
23:33by saying in our our Roman number three
23:36the Trinity is false and so here's the
23:39quotes from the Oneness people saying
23:41the Trinity is false quote the Son of
23:43God is not a separate person in the
23:45godhead but the physical expression of
23:48the one
23:49God God used the name of Jesus as the
23:53culminated revelation of his
23:56Nature Point C once again we see that
23:59the son is a visible manifestation of
24:01the father in the flesh in other words
24:04the invisible God the Father manifested
24:07himself in the visible flesh as the son
24:11so that men could behold God's glory and
24:13could understand what God is truly
24:16like we understand that the son is not
24:20distinct from the father in personality
24:23but the mode by which The Father
24:25revealed himself to man so he even used
24:27that word mode which is where we got the
24:30term
24:31modalism this idea that the one person
24:33of God reveals himself in one mode is
24:37the father one mode is the Son and one
24:40mode is the Holy
24:42Spirit and uh number e quote the deity
24:45of Jesus is none other than the father
24:48himself we know that the verses of
24:51scripture that speak of creation by the
24:53sun cannot mean the sun existed
24:55substantially at creation as a person a
24:58part from the father God the father so
25:00loved the world that he robed himself in
25:02the flesh and gave himself as the Son of
25:05God to reconcile the world to himself so
25:07very clearly teaching that the
25:11father became the son in another mode
25:14died on the cross rose from the dead and
25:18at some point will cease to be the son
25:20again and go back to as they said
25:22subsumed back into the one role as
25:24father one person and so there's no way
25:27of dividing the persons in Oneness
25:29teaching this is also thr out another
25:32big word that got used in the early
25:34centuries
25:36patripassianism Patra meaning father
25:39passion meaning suffering that said that
25:41the father is the one that suffered on
25:43the cross it's Patra passionis and it
25:46was also a heresy very similar to this
25:49and so that's really what it teaches and
25:53U it it it gets a little more sticky as
25:55we keep going Roman number four
25:59Jesus is mediator only as a
26:02man Jesus can only be mediator as a man
26:05in Oneness theology quote there are not
26:08two personalities in God the duality in
26:11Jesus as God and as man it is not God
26:15who mediates between God and man nor is
26:17it God the son who does so rather it is
26:21the man Jesus who mediates only a
26:24sinless man could approach a holy God on
26:27behalf of mankind
26:28close quote well Steve you can probably
26:31already see some of the issues or
26:33questions that might arise with this
26:36yeah what what is a mediator I mean like
26:38today we'll see athletes right that that
26:40go into arbitration they'll have an
26:42Arbiter or uh somebody will sue somebody
26:46else and they'll go before a judge and
26:48the judge is supposed to be a a fair
26:51determiner well if we were to
26:54say that uh Jesus could only be a
26:59mediator if he was man
27:02only what problem does that give with
27:05the idea of being a arbitrator a
27:09mediator right well the problem comes in
27:11is that a mediator has to have one foot
27:14in both sides right right that's what
27:16say the judge is supposed to be an equal
27:18to to both sides or the arbitrator
27:22between say athlete and the ownership of
27:25the of the sports team he has to he's
27:28supposed to be sort of an equal on both
27:30sides if he was only the player right
27:33being the Arbiter well wait a minute we
27:36need a representative here of the other
27:38side or if the judge was you know an
27:42employee of the comp one company that
27:44was suing another company well that wait
27:47a minute that's that's not fair and so
27:49always people have always held
27:52mediators had to have both right and so
27:57that's why we've always taught church
27:59has always taught a mediator had to be
28:01somebody the only way Jesus could be
28:03mediator is to be God the God man was
28:07together he yes he's he's fully God and
28:11fully man but he's together in one
28:13person they're not mingled together in
28:15some sort of a third thing that's
28:18neither God nor man right and they're
28:20not so totally separated but he Jesus
28:23had to be mediator had to be God and man
28:26at the same time now now somebody's
28:28going to say okay all that's nice
28:30theological Hair S splitting but what
28:33does it really matter well what it
28:35matters is in the next part Roman number
28:38five where it comes into
28:40baptism and and salvation in oness
28:44theology
28:46baptism can only be done with the exact
28:49words quote in Jesus name unquote and
28:53not with a trinitarian formula and so
28:55Steve as you well know what did Jesus
28:57say at the tail into Matthew as a
28:59command go into all the world and what
29:02and make disciples preach the gospel and
29:05and make disciples baptizing them in the
29:08name of the Father the Son and the Holy
29:11Spirit right so right there at the at
29:13the tail end of the Book of Matthew
29:15Matthew 28 right there in red and white
29:18it says baptize in the name of the
29:20Father the Son and the Holy Spirit
29:22however the oness people say wait a
29:24minute the name
29:27of is Jesus and so if a Oneness would
29:30say if you go through the book of Acts
29:32there's all these passages in Acts that
29:35say they
29:37baptized in Jesus name and so a Oneness
29:41person would go through there's several
29:43times in the book of Acts where it uses
29:45the exact phrase in Jesus name so a
29:48Oneness person would say the only valid
29:50baptism is the one in jesus' name and
29:54not in the name of the father Son and
29:56the Holy Spirit they would also
29:59say as uh Pentecostals are excuse me
30:03want to do that baptism the correct
30:08baptism according to a Oneness teacher
30:10is in Jesus name will always result in
30:15speaking in
30:17tongues will always result in speaking
30:19in tongues because that is the sign of
30:22the filling of the Holy Spirit and
30:24unless a person is baptized in jesus'
30:27name
30:28and speaks in tongues they're not
30:30saved now again there may be individual
30:33churches individual people that don't
30:35teach this but for the most part this is
30:38one this Pentecostal teaching is that
30:41they deny the Trinity God is one person
30:45named Jesus and they were baptized in
30:48that God's name in Jesus name and you
30:52will speak in tongues and that if you
30:55don't speak in tongues and aren't
30:57baptized in the name of Jesus with those
30:59exact phrase you don't have the Holy
31:01Spirit and you're not saved now now we
31:03got a problem yeah and and uh to ask a
31:06couple of questions related to that one
31:10is okay so now you have people that have
31:13truly come to Christ in other words they
31:15they are True Believers and they
31:18involved with a church whatever it might
31:19be and somehow they get in the sphere of
31:22this uh this particular teaching this
31:24Oneness teaching what you're saying is
31:27they would at some point in time tell
31:30them oh no you're not really saved you
31:33just think that you're saved because you
31:35you you weren't baptized correctly and
31:38in order to be saved and and you didn't
31:40speak in tongues you didn't have that
31:43right and so now you have a person who
31:45who is is truly saved right they have
31:49eternal salvation because they have
31:50believed in Jesus Christ uh and as we've
31:54gone through many of our lessons going
31:56back to the the same belief that Abraham
31:59had and they're truly saved but now
32:01they're confused because they're in this
32:03sphere of influence that would be one
32:06the second one would be that someone
32:08that is brought up in this or has this
32:11teaching from the beginning and they
32:14are uh come to belief or ba or or
32:18baptism in the strict accordance with
32:21this teaching and this way they have a a
32:24not correct view of God and it and it
32:29and they think that they're saved but
32:31they really aren't because they have
32:33this false belief or false teaching Well
32:36here here's here's what here's what I
32:38would say it's important because one it
32:41deals with the nature of God and it's
32:44important too because it ends up dealing
32:46with the nature of Salvation I've not
32:48seen anyone and maybe there's somebody
32:51out there and i' I've not seen every
32:53group ever in the world but every group
32:55I've ever seen that denies the Trinity
32:59also has some wrong view of
33:01Salvation I've not found one that didn't
33:04now what we have to be real careful here
33:08in the sense that you and I Steve and
33:10and any Christian really can't set
33:12ourselves up as the Arbiter of who is
33:15saved and who it isn't what we can set
33:18ourselves up and we have a Divine
33:20mandate to do is to be an Arbiter of
33:23correct Doctrine right so we can say and
33:27as scripture
33:28clearly teaches us these teachings are
33:31within Christianity and those teachings
33:35are outside the realm of Christianity
33:36it's non-Christian and we're going to
33:38declare that teaching to be
33:40non-Christian what I don't think we can
33:43do is point to an individual human and
33:45say this one's saved and that one's not
33:47yeah I'd agree with that I I just don't
33:49think that's our that's our role and so
33:52fortunately uh I'm not the arbitrator of
33:55of men's Souls we have a wise God that
33:58is that is so good for that but what we
33:59can clearly do is say this teaching is
34:02Christian and when it gets to this point
34:05then it's outside the realm of
34:07Christianity and it's no longer
34:08Christian yeah that we can say so that's
34:12why it's important is that it it deals
34:14with the nature of God getting that
34:16correct and if you have the wrong God
34:18then you're in big trouble and secondly
34:20they start adding things to Salvation
34:23adding Works to Salvation so that's
34:26Oneness and so so let me get to before
34:29we really start evaluating all of that
34:31let me switch gears for a minute here
34:33and talk about the origins of the
34:35Trinity now there is a common belief
34:41that that teaches that the TR doctrine
34:43of the Trinity what began at the Council
34:46of NAA in the year 20 325 ad this
34:50teaching is false it's demonstrably
34:53false because there are many I've got a
34:57double handful here of quotes of people
35:00that were well prior to 325
35:05ad that support the Trinity clearly so
35:09let me just take a quick minute and lay
35:11out what was going on at NAA because NAA
35:14gets blamed for anything anybody doesn't
35:16want to agree with they drag out the
35:18Council of NAA for some odd reason and
35:21say it started there when it really
35:23didn't there was starting in about the
35:26year 60
35:28465 Nero was the emperor of Rome
35:32declared Christianity
35:34illegal he had burned down Rome and
35:37wanted to blame somebody so he blamed
35:40the Christians and from about three
35:42starting at 3:25 it was a capital
35:44offense it was illegal they would kill
35:46you for being a Christian and they used
35:49Christians they threw him to the Lions
35:50and used them as sport in the big
35:53Coliseum circuses things like that well
35:57hundreds of years years go by and by
35:59about 312 313 ad there was a battle
36:04going on for who was going to be the new
36:06emperor and there was a man named
36:08Constantine who was one of the leaders
36:12that claimed he saw a miracle message in
36:15the sky that pointed to the Cross so
36:18Constantine wins the battle becomes the
36:21emperor of Rome and then accepts
36:25Christianity but but he's a politician
36:27he not a he's not a theologian
36:30Constantine is not a theologian correct
36:32he he was a he more of a royal
36:36politician maybe a military guy was was
36:39not somebody that sat around the library
36:42studying theological language I mean he
36:44was not that there was in 319 there was
36:47a man named Aras who popped up and said
36:50Jesus was a created
36:52being created being so there was a
36:55council in n in 325 to declare Aras a
37:00heretic said no Jesus is not created
37:04yeah that was what NAA was about but for
37:07some reason people pull things out of
37:09the air and say that
37:11Constantine went to Nia and imposed the
37:15Trinity View and any other teaching
37:18nobody likes and it's just not true it's
37:20just historically factually Incorrect
37:23and so what I've got in the notes and
37:24I'll read one or two of these not going
37:26to read all of them this just I wanted
37:28to document these and these will all be
37:29on our website for those of you that
37:31that need the documentation but the
37:33first mention of the word Trinity was by
37:37a man named Theophilus of Antioch who
37:40was a local Bishop a local leader from
37:44about 169 to 183 so somewhere around 170
37:49175
37:50ad he used this word Trinity in one of
37:54his writings and the man who compiled
37:57all of the all of the the Prine fathers
38:00was a man named Philip scha and Philip
38:03sha said this this was this quoting this
38:06guy theophilos this was the earliest use
38:08of this word Trinity it seems to have
38:11been used by this writer in his lost
38:13works also and as a a friend suggest the
38:17use he makes of it is familiar he does
38:20not lug it in as something
38:22novel types of the Trinity he says
38:25illustrating an accepted word
38:28not introducing a new one so what he's
38:31saying there Philip cha is saying there
38:33is that this guy
38:35theopus was saying that the first
38:39mention of the Trinity talking to the
38:41audience they already knew what he meant
38:44he didn't introduce a brand new term
38:46that he had just invented so he used the
38:48term Trinity in 170 and when he used it
38:51the audience was already familiar with
38:53it mhm he didn't have to explain what
38:55the word meant so this tells you that by
38:58175 the word Trinity was in widespread
39:01use to where we I can talk about it and
39:04I don't even have to explain what it
39:05means MH so then one more quote aan
39:10agaras uh in
39:12177 ad quote father and son being one
39:17the son being in the father and the
39:19father in the son in Oneness and power
39:22of spirit the son was not brought into
39:25existence the holy Spirit himself that
39:28means he's a person God the father and
39:31God the Son and the Holy Spirit the
39:33Oneness of the son with the Father the
39:36communion of the father with the son the
39:39unity of these three the spirit the son
39:42the father and their distinction in
39:44unity so very clearly trinitarian
39:47formula used 150 plus years prior to NAA
39:53and so it's just false there was a guy
39:56who was a head of a religion department
39:58at a major university near us that that
40:00got this wrong and it's just
40:03factually very solid that the Trinity
40:05was around from the beginning and it's
40:07clear in the document when you see there
40:09what you were reading off was the
40:11various quotes that this uh a
40:16aorus athenagoras athenagoras easy for
40:19you to say that he used in his various
40:22writings that's what you were doing you
40:23were you were taking different quotes
40:25that he used in his various writings
40:27that denoted there right right right now
40:31what I want to do is again our notes
40:32we'll put it on the website there's
40:34there's a big double handful of those
40:35not going to read them all it's solid
40:38that the Trinity was taught for many
40:41years now the ones in the notes I don't
40:43necessarily agree with all these people
40:45some of them you kind of scratch your
40:47head and say what would they think but
40:48I'm just trying to build the case that
40:50the concept was there right some of them
40:52were were quite good this quote again
40:55won't read it but there was a there was
40:56a Gregory the Great around 270 had a
41:00very good explanation of the Trinity and
41:02this is good 50 years over 50 years
41:04before AA so what I would like to do is
41:07where it really got codified was in The
41:09ecumenical councils ecumenical councils
41:12in this context meant that they had a
41:16question and every leader from every
41:19city got together imagine every
41:23Christian leader getting together in one
41:25big conference and having an agreement
41:29well there were seven of those prior to
41:31the year
41:33950 980 I forget now there was a a
41:36Schism between the Eastern Church and
41:38the and the western church after that
41:40they couldn't get everybody together but
41:42prior to that everybody in the church
41:45got together and agreed on these these
41:47teachings and and in Acts 15 we see a
41:50council come together for an agreement
41:53related to the Jews and and the uh
41:55Gentiles as far as Christian ity yes so
41:58that's that's would be a Biblical
41:59example of a council of early Apostles
42:03getting together and going through and
42:06saying okay here's here's the solid
42:08Doctrine and the solid teaching right
42:11right right so I want to read a couple
42:14of excuse me a couple of statements here
42:16the where the Trinity really gets
42:18codified or the principles behind it
42:21again it was taught forever but just
42:23what does the Trinity teach right
42:25Council of NAA 325
42:28now remember as I read this remember the
42:32things that we mentioned while ago that
42:34the Oneness people teach right keep
42:36those in mind as I read this and this
42:39part of it this part of the Nan
42:42statement is saying what they don't
42:45believe they stated what they believe
42:48now they're saying what they what they
42:50don't believe so but what it says quote
42:53but as for those who say there was when
42:56he was not
42:58not okay so what they're saying there is
43:01for those people who say there's a time
43:04when Jesus didn't exist there was when
43:07he was not and before being born he was
43:12not so what did what did we just quote
43:15from the Oneness guys a while ago when
43:17did when did Jesus
43:19begin whenever God created him according
43:23to the Oneness thing it's when God
43:25created him and he didn't get to be a
43:27son until U the the until Mary right
43:32right so what this is saying again but
43:35as for those who say there was when he
43:37was not there was a time when he was not
43:39and before being born he was not that's
43:42exactly what the one this people just
43:43said MH and that he came into existence
43:47out of
43:48nothing or who assert that the Son of
43:51God is a different hypostasis or
43:54substance hypostasis just a technical
43:56Greek word for substance or created
44:01those who say he was created or those
44:04who say he was subject to alteration or
44:06change these the Catholic and Apostolic
44:10church anathematized now the word
44:13anathematize is anathema it's the Greek
44:16word for a cursed yeah it's the
44:19strongest language that can be used it
44:22it's saying this teaching is so far
44:25outside of of Christianity that it's a
44:29curse and so what they're saying there
44:32is that anybody who comes along and say
44:34there was a time before Jesus was or
44:38anybody that says he came into
44:41existence this teaching is a cursed yeah
44:44and the Catholic that's used here is
44:46meaning just the universal church right
44:48correct right not not the not the Roman
44:51Catholic church but The Universal Church
44:54um and the Apostolic Church meaning that
44:56the church that is based off of the
44:59Apostles and they're teaching that right
45:00correct correct correct exactly so
45:03Catholic in this sense is Catholic just
45:05means Universal right and so again
45:09that's what was taught from the early
45:11days Council of chelon 451 what they're
45:14saying here is that the two Natures are
45:17unified they're separate in the sense
45:20that they're distinct but they're in one
45:22person so what chalon says is when God
45:26is believed to be both Almighty and
45:28Father the Son is clearly proved to be
45:31co-eternal with him in no way different
45:33from the
45:34father in no way different from the
45:37father since he was born God from God
45:39Almighty from Almighty co-eternal with
45:42the father not later in time but lower
45:45in power not lower in power not unlike
45:48Glory distinct in being the same Eternal
45:51only begotten Eternal begetter was born
45:54of the Holy Spirit the Virgin Mary and
45:56so again very clearly saying that the
45:59two Natures exist in one person and it's
46:02it's the being is the same as the father
46:05but the person is distinct now
46:08somebody's going to say at this point
46:10okay so who all that's nice human
46:12language in some human Creed what does
46:14the bible teach well here would be my my
46:18comment to to those out there that are
46:20trying to support the Trinity what you
46:22don't do is use the analogies you know
46:25you've heard people say well the the
46:27Trinity is like water right you've got
46:29liquid and ice and steam or it's like an
46:32apple or it's like an apple with the
46:34skin and the or an egg with the the
46:37shell and the yolk all those break down
46:41yeah all those break down there's some
46:42similarities but there's some major
46:44differences and since you're dealing
46:46with God there's only one of him and
46:48there's everything else is going to be
46:50uh some degree of different so always go
46:53to scripture what does the scripture
46:55teach right so here's the biblical basis
47:00for the Trinity and what we got in the
47:03notes Here we could write an entire book
47:04people have written books I'm just going
47:06to give the The Logical points and then
47:08a couple of couple of verses so there is
47:11one and only one God Trinity does not
47:14teach three Gods it teaches one and only
47:17one God Isaiah 43:10 you are my
47:20Witnesses says the Lord and my servant
47:22whom I have chosen that you may know and
47:25believe me and understand that I am he
47:30before me there was no God formed nor
47:32shall there be after me so again before
47:36me there was no God formed nor there
47:38will will there be after me there's
47:39there's only room in a sentence like
47:42that for
47:43one so one and only one God the father
47:46is God 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is one
47:49God the father quote
47:51unquote so there's the father is God uh
47:56Point number next Point Jesus Is God
47:59Jesus claimed to be Yahweh in John 8:58
48:02if you compare that to Exodus 3:14 Jesus
48:05accepted worship eight or nine times in
48:07the New Testament uh both of them both
48:10Jesus and Yahweh say I am the first and
48:14I am the
48:15last and got the verses there Revelation
48:18he's quoting Isaiah 44 and so there can
48:21only be one first and there can only be
48:23one last and so if if Jesus and again I
48:27Jesus say I am the first and I am the
48:30last uh and Jesus said he was equal with
48:33the father in John 518 and again the
48:36language there doesn't mean anything
48:38unless it's with and the Holy Spirit is
48:40God and is a
48:42person lying to the holy spirit is lying
48:46to God in Acts chapter 5 the holy spirit
48:49said this is a a quote of Acts 13:2
48:52quote the holy spirit said now separate
48:55unto me Barnabas and
48:58Paul close quote now the the Holy Spirit
49:02speaks and he speaks in first person
49:04pronouns
49:06me and so we could make a huge list of
49:09places where the Holy Spirit expresses
49:12all the aspects of a person right and
49:15critical to this discussion the Father
49:17the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct
49:19persons the father speaks to the son in
49:22Hebrews 1 verse 8 and9 thy Throne oh God
49:27is forever so you're questioned while
49:29ago U about Jesus sitting on the throne
49:32in Hebrews 1 189 the father says to the
49:37son thy Throne oh God so he's calling
49:41him son as he sits on the throne yeah so
49:45the father speaks to the son as God the
49:48son speaks to the father as God the
49:51three appear together in in more than
49:54one instance Zechariah 12:10 they will
49:57look on me whom they have pierced and
49:59they will mourn for
50:02him uh next one he was in the beginning
50:06with God John 1:2 so the language
50:10doesn't mean anything unless it means he
50:12was with him right um we know Jesus was
50:17not made and did not have a beginning in
50:20John 1:3 if anyone loves me he will keep
50:23my word and my father will love him and
50:27we will come to him and make our home
50:30with him so there's only room there for
50:34more than one person the language just
50:37gets too confusing without it so what
50:40does the Trinity what does the doctrine
50:42of the Trinity say there's one and only
50:44one God right the father is God the son
50:46is God the holy spirit is God therefore
50:49they are the one God because nothing
50:52else makes sense because there's too
50:54many passages where there distinct
50:57persons so that's the that's the
51:00doctrine of the Trinity and so the
51:02biblical support for the Trinity is
51:04solid it's numerous and solid it was
51:07taught in the Bible it was taught from
51:09the very beginning by the church fathers
51:12modalism sabellianism Oneness
51:14Pentecostalism was excommunicated from
51:17Christianity because it qualifies as a
51:20heresy and as trinitarians we
51:23should be very careful in the analogies
51:26we and just stick with the
51:28scriptures so that's the biblical
51:30position for the Trinity and denial of
51:33the Oneness
51:36Doctrine very interesting interesting to
51:39some people we we'll see see how so uh I
51:44I would encourage the the people at the
51:46with the uh listeners to go to our page
51:49and the viewers too but the viewers had
51:51a little bit of an an advantage that we
51:53went through this and showed it on the
51:55screen but for the ones that are
51:56listening uh go to our website on our
51:59Resource page and download this and of
52:01course the viewers too but uh you'll
52:04have that and you'll be able you have a
52:06little bit more information in that
52:07document you didn't go through
52:09completely all of it uh and also it will
52:12help to be able to have that document as
52:14you go back and probably relisten to it
52:16especially if you're just uh listening
52:18to it at audio audio and one of the
52:21reasons why it's important again is the
52:24nature of God and how we're saved we can
52:26have a lot of disagreements about minor
52:28issues those things are major issues who
52:32who is God and how we're saved those are
52:33major issues that you have to get
52:35right yeah well I'm glad you went
52:38through this yeah so that is reasoning
52:40through some theology reasoning through
52:42the scriptures so we'll be back to our
52:45normal verse by verse Bible study and so
52:49we trust if if you're only listening to
52:51these topical studies our real meat and
52:53potatoes or our chapter 1 verse one
52:57each each verse down to the end of the
52:58book and so that's how we reason to the
53:00Bible and we trust that she'll be back
53:02again to do it with us as well thank you
53:04for watching and listening and may God
53:06bless you
53:13[Music]
53:23[Music]

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