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Tribes in Yemen: Their Role and Transformation During the War — Transcript

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0:10Hello everyone. I would like to welcome
0:12everyone. Uh good afternoon or good
0:15evening. Thank you very much for being
0:16with us on this session on tribes in
0:18Yemen, its roles in periods of conflict.
0:22[clears throat]
0:24This session is going to be an hour and
0:26a half long. It's going to be discussing
0:28the most recent stands with the tribal
0:29stands in Madab and Jof and the
0:31increased tribal activity in Madab and
0:33Joof governors and the incre and the
0:36continuing arrival of tribal delegations
0:39as a response to the to the request or
0:42demand by tribal leadersh
0:45who called for tribal stands in these
0:47areas. And this is usually uh something
0:50that tribes resort to when tribal
0:52customs are violated such as an attack
0:54on a vulnerable group or on a woman
0:58or others. And this tribal stand has
1:01become broad tribal mobilization. And in
1:06to confront it, the Houthies have also
1:08mobilized their tribal allies as a part
1:10of what they call responding to the
1:13aggression. And this shows the continued
1:15use utilization of tribes in the
1:17conflict. And this takes us back to a
1:20longunning discussion of what role can
1:23tribes play in Yemen
1:25and how has the war restructured
1:29the relationship between tribes, the
1:31government, society and the parties, the
1:34conflict and can tribes regain their
1:36role as an independent actor.
1:40As a part of this discussion, we are
1:42going to be hosting speakers who have uh
1:46excellent expertise on what tribes are
1:48their their roles. We have Adah who is a
1:53researcher at Salah Center and a
1:56researcher at the Turk University in
1:58Finland. We also have Abdah, a deputy
2:00governor of the governor of Mab, a
2:03member of the CRC and a tribal leader
2:07from the Murad tribes in MAB. We also
2:10have Abdani,
2:13a senior researcher at the center for
2:16strategic studies and I'm going to be
2:19facilitating the session. I'm Mujin,
2:22a researcher at the Sama Center. Welcome
2:24everyone. I wanted to start with Adel.
2:28Can you please give us a background on
2:30what exactly has happened? What were
2:32these recent developments? Thank you
2:34very much Mesa. I would also like to
2:36thank our esteemed guests and the
2:40organizers of this session
2:44including the team from
2:48with regards to this topic specifically.
2:51The this crisis started in the beginning
2:54of May when
2:58A woman named Meera resorted to
3:01Sheikhmed bin Fed and she cut off a
3:06strand of her hair and she resorted to
3:09him for assistance with her case and she
3:13accused the Houthis or leading figures
3:15in the Houthis of taking over her home
3:18in the capital and of looting her
3:20property. And so based on this request
3:23for help, the tribal leader
3:27conducted a visit to during which he
3:30tried to mediate in this problem between
3:32these individuals,
3:35the individuals who took over the home
3:38that woman's home [snorts] and the woman
3:40herself. He also resorted to a major
3:44tribal leader, Yemen tribal leader, and
3:47he clarified the issue to him. But it
3:50did not seem like
3:51He received a response from the Houthis
3:54when he went to mediate. Nor did he
3:56receive a clear response from the
3:59authorities if we can call them that. He
4:02also tried to reach the home of that
4:07woman where he recorded a voice
4:10recording there demanding justice and
4:13demanding a return of the her property.
4:15But all of his efforts
4:18resulted in him and his the woman he was
4:22uh
4:24involved in her case for he he was he
4:27and her were detained and like he said
4:29this wasn't an official prison but it
4:31was a location where they were detained
4:33in I don't know what happened while they
4:35were being detained but I think but he
4:38was humiliated by the Houthis and he did
4:42does not recognize this group as the
4:44state and so he is mistreated and put
4:46under pressure to give the statement
4:49that he did in saying that the case has
4:53is over and that it was being resolved
4:55by the authorities in he was allowed to
4:57leave the capital
4:59and to return to his area the area that
5:02he originally from. And when he arrived
5:04there, he immediately left his area, the
5:08area he's from, resorting, leaving for a
5:11safer area named, leaving all of his
5:13property, his homes, and his farms in
5:17those areas. And he
5:20sought asylum in this area. And he
5:23announced the tribal stand called the
5:25stands of dignity. And he considered
5:27this to be a case not a political case
5:30but a case of tribal dignity and honor.
5:33And his call was there was a broad
5:37response from tribal from Yemen tribes.
5:41The latest of which was today with the
5:43arrival of tribal leaders from Hashid
5:45and they saw in what had happened in his
5:47case a very clear violation of tribal
5:50customs and traditions and tribal
5:53leaders who are currently in say that
5:58Ending this crisis or the end of this
6:01crisis depends on the
6:04response to this tribal standing.
6:07Starting with the immediate release of
6:09the woman under the protection of Sheikh
6:11Mhammed Fatam and all of the previous
6:15attempts had failed because the Houthis
6:18want to present themselves as the
6:20authority responsible for both Fatam and
6:22this woman and that there is no role for
6:25him to play. But this is where there has
6:27been a an overlap between political
6:30matters and tribal customs and
6:33traditions. And so these tensions have
6:34only increased and it does not seem like
6:36the tribes will retreat unless their
6:38demands are responded to.
6:41>> Thank you very much. We will now move on
6:43to Abdah Abdu. The Houthies do not seem
6:47to want to respond to these demands and
6:49they do not it does not seem that they
6:51want to open the door for any response
6:53to that. And so what do what do you
6:55think is going to be the future of these
6:57tribal of this tribal stand in Aran?
6:59Will it end with negotiations or with a
7:02settlement or with an armed
7:03confrontation?
7:08Where do you think this tribal stand and
7:11these tribal protests will lead to?
7:15Abdah, your microphone is muted.
7:19>> Thank you very much. I would like to
7:21start by thanking the SA center for
7:25the excellent role and activities that
7:28they play in trying to
7:33bring Yemenes together and ensure the
7:35inclusion of Yemen tribes in these
7:38discussions and and webinars as it is
7:41very important in Yemen socially and at
7:44the national level to focus on these
7:46issues.
7:50This session comes at a time at a
7:52pivotal time in Yemen's history
7:57where tribal activities are coming back
8:00to the forefront with the tribal protest
8:04or demonstrations in Mad and the tribes
8:07coming together and the stand
8:11in an area where tribes continue to be
8:14an important and crucial social actor in
8:17the country. Anyone
8:29who's followed Yemen's history realizes
8:32that tribes
8:34only resort to these kinds of tribal
8:36stands in major issues, issues that
8:39affect public dignity
8:42or require tribes supporting those who
8:45have been oppressed and to defend their
8:47honor and land. And these tribal necks
8:50or stands are not just a gathering but
8:53are a declaration that there is a case
8:56and a cause that required tribes to
8:59become involved in and it is no longer
9:00the responsibility of a single tribe but
9:03has become a collective social
9:05responsibility.
9:07>> Uh where do you think this tribal stand
9:11might lead to? Where do you think things
9:12might end up?
9:18I think there are three scenarios that
9:21might come to pass. The first is a
9:23peaceful solution with a response to
9:25these demands
9:30and in that outcome
9:35tribes will will consider that their
9:37honor has been restored and their stand
9:40will be dispersed. The second
9:42possibility is a armed confrontation and
9:45a more comprehensive clash. And here the
9:48leadership of the stands might reject
9:50any negotiations or concession that do
9:53not meet their demands. And the result
9:55here will be
9:59the clash,
10:02a broad armed clash or armed clashes and
10:06it will shift from being a local tribal
10:10issue to a a part of the ongoing
10:13warfare.
10:17And the third is a longer conflict of
10:21attrition.
10:23And that mechanism
10:27will be if the Houthies avoid a direct
10:31uh direct confrontation and they rely on
10:34stalling to decrease the support for the
10:37tribes and decrease their supplies. And
10:40if these tribal stands continue for a
10:42longer period, it it will transform to
10:45an area of
10:47uh of armed tribesmen opposed to the
10:51Houthis.
10:54And if the logistical efforts
10:57are unable to provide the necessary
10:59supports in a way that is sustained then
11:01they these areas will have to disperse.
11:04Sorry Abd but this military at the end
11:06of the day the tribes are confronting an
11:10armed authority a state authority that
11:12is much more powerful than the tribes.
11:15And so how would we even think that this
11:16is a possible option? Because and in and
11:19my own personal belief
11:23the state
11:25if there was no state support for the
11:29tribal stands then I fear that they will
11:31fail. Whereas
11:35these tribal gatherings
11:38are
11:41ga tribal gatherings that we have not
11:43seen since the beginning of the war in
11:45Yemen in 2015.
11:50>> And so when when you mean this when you
11:52say state support, you mean the
11:53internationally recognized government.
11:54Yes, exactly. The internationally
11:56recognized government. And so wouldn't
11:58that politicize these tribal gatherings,
12:00transforming them from tribal demands
12:02into a political matter? Wouldn't that
12:05escalate the issue in a way that might
12:07lead to it uh being difficult to
12:09control? You you you spoke about the you
12:13asked about
12:15because at the end of the day any
12:18role by the government will turn it into
12:21a political matter. We need to be open
12:24because the Houthi militias have been
12:26fighting against the government from
12:282015 until the beginning of 2022.
12:32And this is when there were military
12:34confrontations.
12:36And it would not be difficult for tribes
12:39who are
12:41not as armed as as regular forces for
12:44them to fight a militia that is a
12:46militia that is supported by states that
12:49are threatening the rest of the region,
12:51not just Yemen.
12:54And so you do not think that it is
12:56unlikely that there might be an armed
12:58confrontation if the tribal demands are
13:00not met. Yes, exactly. I I think that is
13:02what it will lead to if they are not
13:03met. Thank you very much.
13:07My question to you is about the role of
13:09the tribe in the Yemen state and its
13:13social role as well. And this is a
13:15question that we've heard many many
13:17times uh and and maybe it's it's an it's
13:21one of the most important questions that
13:22Yemenes will have to answer. Can you
13:25please explain to us
13:27how has the relationship between the
13:29tribes and the authorities in Yemen and
13:31what are the social and political roles
13:34that tribes have played
13:37>> in Yemen's modern history?
13:40>> Thank you. Mesa
13:43first I I would like to clarify that I
13:46will be speaking about tribes in the
13:49north
13:51primarily
13:53because the experience of tribes in the
13:55south is different from the experience
13:58of tribes in the north and we're now
14:01dealing with a tribal northern tribal
14:05context and so it would be more useful
14:07for us to focus on the history of tribes
14:10in those areas. is but before that I
14:12wanted to say a few words about tribes
14:15in the south.
14:17Tribes in the south also have a
14:19significant presence and these tribal
14:22gatherings or the
14:25was started by an initiative by tribes
14:27from
14:30tribes.
14:34tribes in the south went underground
14:36when the communist when the socialist
14:39party was in power and before people
14:41criticized me when I when speaking about
14:43this I wanted to say that I am a
14:45socialist I'm a member of the polit of
14:47the socialist party but it's important
14:48for us to recognize
14:50>> our mistakes tribes were were driven
14:55underground during that period where it
14:57got to the point where they changed the
15:00names of the governors so that these
15:01tribal alignments were no longer there
15:04they they numbered the governors rather
15:05than having them have names. And so this
15:08made tribes in these areas
15:11continue to operate underground outside
15:14of any direct engagement with the state.
15:18And when the socialist party was
15:19defeated in 1994,
15:22she abducted
15:25a visit to the south in which he return
15:29restored the tribes to the forefront. He
15:31spent three months traveling to
15:34different parts of the south uh
15:38uh providing budgets for tribal leaders
15:40from the central state and this helped
15:42restore the tribes in these areas. But
15:44the tribes
15:50the tribes as a mechanism for a tool for
15:54mobile mobilization. one that is based
15:56on strong tribal ties and the tribes as
16:00a
16:03and tribal customs as a uh as a
16:06framework for regulating and organized
16:09people's lives. When tribes
16:14are repressed or face circumstances that
16:17do not allow for them to organize
16:19themselves properly, then these this
16:24these customs
16:26get weaker and and these customs have
16:28many positive things. And the war in
16:291986
16:33was called the socialist tribes war
16:37because the division that occurred at
16:38the time was very clearly a tribal
16:40division between the various political
16:43actors. In addition to that, the tribes
16:45in the south
16:49lost their their historical historical
16:53leaders and lost much of their
16:55institutional memory
16:57when tribal leaders
17:00were displaced during the peasant revolt
17:05[clears throat] in 1972. And so many of
17:07the positive aspects of tribes
17:11were lost and were only restored
17:14recently and and even then only
17:16gradually
17:18going back to the situation in the
17:20north. Let's start from the period when
17:22im was in power and this is if we look
17:25at the if we look at the period the
17:28period starting then and this was the
17:30institutional period for the tribes in
17:33the republican area and There was an
17:36alliance between those in the between
17:39the Imam and the tribal state and the
17:42this state the Imam state imamate
17:46its main objective was to achieve uh
17:51stability and this was and this was the
17:54minim what would be called a minimal
17:56state at the time. And so local
17:58societies and communities would manage
18:01their affairs without with very limited
18:04intervention by the central state.
18:08And tribal leaders then used to live in
18:11their areas and they would represent
18:12their tribes in negotiations with the
18:14state and they would ensure that their
18:16tribes adhere to any to the outcomes of
18:18the negotiations. So they were called
18:21guarantors and the loyalty and trust of
18:24the tribal society was in their tribal
18:26leaders and tribes would rely on customs
18:29and traditions to manage their own
18:31internal affairs as well as the
18:32relationship with their neighbors and
18:35any problems that might arise would be
18:37resolved through c tribal customs and
18:39traditions because the presence of the
18:41state was very limited.
18:44But when the republic was established,
18:47what the state was or what the state was
18:49was was the objective of the state
18:51changed and it it aimed to be a welfare
18:54state, one that expanded its presence
18:57outside of the capital and especially in
18:59tribal areas
19:01and the tool that the state used to do
19:03this was through various works and
19:05projects. Uh but the the spread or the
19:08advancement of the state into these
19:10areas was very limited.
19:13The biggest influence in the change to
19:15society at the time was the openness and
19:18the trend towards development after the
19:21establishment of the republic and that's
19:23what led to the change in society and
19:26one of the biggest uh reasons for that
19:28was the spread of education with the
19:31migration of people from rural to urban
19:33areas. This changed society and that led
19:36to two outcomes. First, it led to the
19:38expansion of the bureaucracy with many
19:41tribal sons of tribal leaders
19:45moving to the capital to and no longer
19:47being representatives of the tribes and
19:48negotiations with the state but actually
19:50being representatives of the state and
19:52the negotiations with the tribes and I
19:54believe that this was a major shift and
19:57it occurred gradually. This decreased
19:58their legitimacy among the tribes
20:03were no longer able to mobilize their
20:05tribes for fighting in the past.
20:07Whenever shakes would need to mobilize
20:10their tribes,
20:12they would need to pay to members of the
20:14tribe to do so.
20:16>> And and the fact that the tribal
20:18leaders, the are now in the city and
20:20they're seen as being part, they've
20:21moved to to and they're seen as being a
20:24part of the state and no longer part of
20:26their tribes. This introduced new forms
20:28of corruption and a different mechanism
20:31for a a negotiations to form the social
20:35contract
20:38and this weakened the tribes which ended
20:41up weakened these institutions and the
20:42second change was the violation of
20:44tribal customs. The tribal customs do
20:47not rely on a
20:49framework or law enforcement agencies
20:51and entities or anything else.
20:54The the only thing keeping tribal
20:58customs and traditions
21:00is that this was seen as the collective
21:02responsibility where those who adhere to
21:05these customs are commended and
21:09appreciated and those who violate them
21:11might be exiled or stigmatized or fined
21:15or punished. But
21:18when the tribes came to the cities, the
21:21surrounding communities did not
21:22implement help them as tribal leaders in
21:25implementing these customs and
21:26traditions leading to these customs and
21:28traditions losing much of their impact.
21:32And I think we can give a clear example
21:35of this in what happened in
21:37Sicily where Ben Ahmed continued uh
21:41ruling 100 years after Granada fell and
21:44tribal customs and traditions continued
21:46to be enforced and tribal society in in
21:50Sicily at the time relied on this. And
21:52when the tribes moved to the city of
21:56Polmo,
22:01this kind of tribal identity remained
22:03strong and allowed them to continue uh
22:06achieving. But but the actual uh
22:09penalties that were in place to stop the
22:11violations ended. And this is why many
22:13of these migrants then
22:17resorted to working in groups like the
22:19mafia. In Yemen, tribes are still able
22:21to curb the violations of customs, but
22:25this ability is decreasing over time and
22:28this weakens the tribe and its
22:30relationship with the state. And so the
22:32question here is why hasn't this matter
22:34been discussed? Why wasn't it discussed
22:36at the time? I think this is because of
22:38the famous agreement that you are my
22:41sheh but I am your president and this
22:43was the agreement between uh the two
22:46departed leaders president Abd and
22:50Abdahbd
22:53president Salah used to see the tribes
22:54as a extension of his power and so he
22:57would strengthen the tribe even against
22:59the the state and I think the best
23:01example of this was the attack by a
23:04tribal leader and contractor who
23:06attacked the the Ministry of Public
23:09Works. And this was a ministry that is
23:12around a kilometer away from the
23:14presidency. And they the fire the
23:16shooting continued for around an hour or
23:19maybe even more than that at the time.
23:20And the state did not get involved and
23:23did not intervene to protect the
23:25employees of the ministry or even the
23:26minister. And so this weakness
23:32which was covered by the fact that
23:35president
23:37supported the state in its
23:39confrontations with the state. But this
23:41weakness
23:43is why fell to the Houthis in in a
23:46matter of hours which is the tribal
23:49stronghold of the tribe. Tribes played
23:54an extraordinary role since 2011 2011 in
23:58maintaining stability despite the fall
23:59of the state. Tribes have been able to
24:01maintain the security and safety of the
24:03local communities and tribes are the
24:05main reason why the number of civilian
24:07casualties over the last 10 or 11 years
24:10has been relatively low. If we compare
24:12what's what happened in Yemen to what's
24:15happening in Sudan, for example, I think
24:18we can realize the main role that tribes
24:22have played in decreasing the number of
24:24civilian victims.
24:28And the tribal system
24:31is an excellent system for protecting
24:33and for regulating the tribe. But it is
24:36not a tool for regulating or organizing
24:39a state because tribes and tribal
24:42customs are to help support its members
24:46against uh
24:49non-tribal members. Abdahb Hass was
24:53asked if tri if the tribes and the state
24:56uh confront each other who will you
24:57stand with and he was the speaker of
24:59parliament at the time and he said his
25:01answer was that states come and go but
25:04tribes have been there since the time of
25:07Adam
25:08>> and so this summarizes the the status of
25:11tribes but so here I had I had a
25:13question uh I wanted to ask you before
25:15we move on we move back to the next
25:17speakers you said that tribes have
25:20become weakened But you've said that
25:22tribes are the reason or that they've
25:25played a role in in decreasing the
25:27number of civilian victims during the
25:28war and that it has been relatively
25:30successful in maintaining stability. And
25:33so if you say that tribes have been
25:34weakened, how have they been able to
25:36play this role?
25:38The tribes were weakened from their
25:40baseline that they were at before, which
25:42was
25:44that tribes were a partner in the imam
25:50where tribes were able to manage their
25:52own affairs separately from the central
25:54states.
26:03tribes are now
26:05part of a much larger structure, one
26:08that uh includes a state that the Imam,
26:11for example, did not have a regular
26:12army. They had a very very small regular
26:15army as well as defensive forces. And
26:17these defensive forces were more like
26:19reserves. And they were made up of
26:21tribesmen and would be called in when
26:23necessary. And these reserve forces can
26:27only go into service with the approval
26:29or the acceptance of the tribes. And so
26:31the military power at the time was in
26:34the hands of the tribes. And but now
26:36when we look at and we've seen this also
26:38at the time of uh
26:45we we saw this in in northern we also
26:48saw what happened in in we also saw this
26:50in
26:52>> and we've seen how what hap as well as
26:56the various tribal rebellions that
26:58occurred in Ba during this conflict.
27:01uh we've seen that they're able to maybe
27:03resist for a month or so but they cannot
27:05continue past that and this shows that
27:07their tribes have weakened but the the
27:09tribes as a moral framework so for
27:11example those who are fighting on the
27:13Houthi side as well as on the government
27:15the internationally recognized
27:16government side they're all tribesmen
27:20and so as a moral framework it is still
27:23influential and it is what is helped
27:25prevent the uh scale of of bloodshed
27:28that we might have seen in other
27:30conflicts
27:30We'll come back to you with a few more
27:32questions. But before that, I wanted to
27:33go back to
27:36uh
27:40there are some some of who have gone to
27:43the tribal stands have gone there for
27:45political reasons. Some of them uh or
27:48political motivations. This is and this
27:51is something that the Houthis or the
27:53Houthis might uh use as a justification
27:56for any escalation against these tribal
27:58stands. And so where does the tribe end
28:00and where do where does politics start
28:03specifically in in these tribal
28:05gatherings in
28:09before talking about the
28:11gatherings or the tribal stand there I
28:14wanted to say that tribes over the past
28:16decade since the Houthies have taken
28:19control of the north tribes have
28:24have tried to use
28:27tribal customs
28:29They've tried to use tribal customs and
28:31traditions for their own interests. And
28:34and the Houthies believe that tribes
28:40only play a role in mobilizing fighters
28:45and that it would not play any other
28:47role including the tribal roles that it
28:49used to play. But what happened is that
28:52these tribal stands have
28:59were not expected by the Houthies and
29:02they showed that tribes continue to
29:04maintain their same their customs and
29:06traditions including the
29:09customs of these tribal stands. And so
29:12this conveys a clear message to the
29:13Houthis showing them that they are not
29:16the state that they are not seen as the
29:17state by tribal actors
29:21and that [laughter] this actor uses
29:24violence in force. How do you how do you
29:26think that this conveys that? How do the
29:28tribal gatherings convey that to the
29:31that they are not the state
29:33said in one of his recordings that Abu
29:35Alim came to him and told him during a
29:37meeting that
29:39you were not a part of the Quranic march
29:43and that all of the tribes responded
29:45positively to this and that you do not
29:47want to be a part of that. You did not
29:50you were not a part of it or you did not
29:51fall in line. And so this was Abu Alim
29:54saying that we have been able to impose
29:56this on the other tribes but we were not
29:59able to impose it on you. And if you go
30:01back to
30:05if you go back to the various documents
30:07issued by tribe by the Houthis when it
30:10comes to tribes including the tribal
30:12code of conduct and the tribal council
30:14that they established. These were all
30:16tools that were or attempts to control
30:19tribes in the areas under the control of
30:21the Houthis. And because and the tribes
30:24of recognized that if they had
30:29done this tribal stand in the areas
30:31under the control of the Houthies that
30:33they would be attacked [laughter] and
30:35that [clears throat] these tribal
30:36gatherings would be dealt with with
30:38extreme force and that is why they
30:41resorted to the areas under the control
30:43of the internationally recognized
30:44government, the legitimate government of
30:45Yemen to provide the necessary
30:47protection to these tribal gatherings.
30:50And secondly, these tribal gatherings
30:52are still that at tribal gatherings. And
30:54the response was not just from the
30:56tribes in the areas of the north, but
30:58from all parts of the country. People
31:00came from Yaf, from Al Mahar, from
31:03Shabwa, from different areas in the
31:06country. They all came to this to these
31:08tribal gatherings in response. If the
31:11Houthis
31:14meet the demands of the tribes, then I
31:16think these
31:19tribal stands or these gatherings will
31:22not be politicized. But if the Houthies
31:24continue to insist to not meet the the
31:28demands of the tribes, then I think that
31:31anything is possible. And I think that
31:34we need to recognize in this context
31:36that and just like
31:39said in the past
31:46when the the tribal structures were
31:49dealt with violently in the eastern
31:51parts of the country.
31:54Despite the fact that that the southern
31:56government dealt with these parties
31:58violently with the tribes violently,
32:01they still weren't able to end them. The
32:03the southern state the state and the
32:05socialist party ended but the tribes
32:07remained. And the Houthis are trying to
32:09do the same thing with the difference
32:10between being that they're not basing it
32:12on the leftist ideology but on their
32:16the Houthi's own extremist ideology.
32:19And this is my own personal analysis
32:21here. If you'll notice that in the
32:23recent period, the tribes inote had very
32:27simple and limited demands and their
32:29demands from the SDC was that the SDC
32:32does not interfere in tribal affairs and
32:35there would be tribal
32:38tribal protest demanding their rights.
32:41But these demands were not taken
32:43seriously
32:49and at the end of the day the tribes
32:51were attacked and the and the violence
32:54was used against them and we saw how
32:56that ended despite the fact that there
32:57was regional intervention. But the end
32:59of the day the tribes have remained and
33:00the STC is no longer there. And today
33:03with regards to the Houthis the Houthies
33:06the the tribes have been oppressed
33:08twice or subject to injustices twice.
33:11The first is when political parties
33:13tried to politicize the tribes
33:18and they were able to dismantle many of
33:20these tribal frameworks or systems by
33:23the political parties and tribes became
33:25fragmented. And the second time that the
33:27tribes faced this injustice was when the
33:30Houthis tried to make this tribal system
33:33a Houthi system and to use it only for
33:36mobilization
33:37or military purposes. Some might say
33:40that there are tribes in MAB from
33:44northern areas who are part of the
33:46national army and that is correct. And
33:48these tribes are opponents of the
33:51Houthis and they will take advantage or
33:53they will exploit any opportunity to
33:55fight against the Houthis
33:59even through these kinds of tribal
34:01gatherings. And so the question here is,
34:03do the Houthies
34:07have a real assessment of the situation
34:09that these tribal gatherings might be an
34:12indicator
34:15or might be the beginning of something
34:17much bigger than the Houthis might
34:19imagine. And and these tribal gatherings
34:22might not just be used by the legitimate
34:25authorities because the legitimate
34:26authorities still have not issued any
34:28clear political statements on these
34:31tribal gatherings. And the only role of
34:33the legitimate government so far has
34:35been to maintain security in these
34:37tribal gatherings. Despite the fact that
34:38the tribes there have formed a what is
34:42called a security belt made up of tribal
34:45figures to protect these uh these
34:48gatherings.
34:53And if the situation were to erupt into
34:57violence with the Houthis or if the
34:59Houthis try to target these tribal
35:01gatherings militarily, then the military
35:04operations and response will not be just
35:07between the tribes and the Houthis, but
35:09might al this would also be seen as an
35:12opportunity for the legitimate
35:13government and even Saudi Arabia to
35:16participate in a broader military
35:17operation against them. And so these
35:19tribal gatherings might be an
35:21introduction
35:23for a future military operation. The
35:26next point is that the tribes so far
35:30have said that we do not want politics.
35:32We do not want to politicize these
35:34tribal gatherings. We only have one
35:36demand and our demand is that these
35:38tribal customs are respected, is that
35:41reparations are provided and that
35:44justice is given to this woman and that
35:45she's released because she's resorted.
35:47And if you if you release her then we
35:49will end these tribal gatherings and the
35:52military operations can
35:54continue. But there's another point
35:57in the beginning of the matter released
36:00a statement in which he said that there
36:02will that they will block roads
36:07for the Sahara tribes and and these are
36:10the this is the tribe that Fis is a
36:14member of. And so with regards to the
36:16roadblocks, these are one of the tools
36:19that can be used in customs to pressure
36:21the other side to adhere to tribal
36:24customs. And so it's it's a it's a way
36:26of pressuring. And it's not how some
36:28might understand it. The tribes
36:30or participate in highway banditry. If
36:33any crimes were committed against any
36:35member of the tribe, tribes would uh
36:38would gather and not allow the
36:40individual who carried out the violation
36:42from going to their work. And they might
36:44their home might even be destroyed in
36:47some cases. But after the creation of
36:49the modern state, they did not resort to
36:51these means,
36:56but they have other ways to try to
36:58pressure the other side to adhere to
37:00tribal customs. And so Bin Fad was uh
37:05advised to not let this become a tribal
37:07conflict between the tribes of and the
37:09tribes of Sahar because the tribes of
37:11Sahar were not the ones who abducted
37:13this woman. That this woman was abducted
37:15by an ideological armed group that is in
37:18control of the capital. And so this is
37:20not a tribal matter between the tribes
37:22of and but
37:26I have a question. The Houthis always
37:28say that they represent the Yemen tribes
37:30and most of the Houthi fighters are from
37:32a tribal background. And so
37:36what is the relationship like between
37:37the Houthies and tribes and the Houthis
37:40have also taken advantage or exploited
37:43tribal divisions and so for example the
37:46the the the vendettas and conflicts
37:48between Hashid and Beil and the Houthies
37:51use this to gain the alliance of tribes.
37:54Might they repeat this when it comes to
37:56the tribal gatherings? Might they try to
37:58create and they've already started to do
37:59this? They they've already they already
38:02have a tribal stand that has been set up
38:04in the other side. The Houthis over the
38:07past decade, the Houthies have have
38:10damaged the tribal system and they've
38:13taken advantage of tribal customs and
38:15traditions in a way that has
38:18would be difficult to imagine. Tribal
38:20customs and traditions were created
38:23to facilitate or to manage the internal
38:26affairs of tribes. And so these are
38:29customs and traditions, social customs
38:32that every that are wellnown and tribes
38:35the role of tribes becomes much more
38:37important when the state is absent but
38:40disappears when the state comes back.
38:42Yes. Disappears if the state I'll give
38:45you an example of this
38:51in some northern areas when the state
38:53tried to impose rule of law
38:57and I mentioned this in a podcast there
39:00was a
39:02there was a commander of a military base
39:04and he had the mandate to resolve tribal
39:07issues. Do you know that
39:11in those areas and some of the areas of
39:14and
39:16the tri the influence of tribal leaders
39:18uh almost disappeared and people
39:20resorted to these government officials
39:23to resolve their issues and tribes in
39:25that case became a support for the
39:27state. But now the Houthies want to
39:29present themselves of being
39:32as they're they're the state and the
39:35tribes need to only be a tool or an
39:37instrument used by this.
39:41The Houthis
39:44and so this is why there is a
39:46contradiction. They want to continue to
39:48utilize the tribes without allowing them
39:51to continue to operate. and and this
39:52injustice that tribes have been going
39:55through has only gotten worse under the
39:56Houthis. Even if the Houthis tried try
39:59to set up other tribal gatherings on the
40:01other side and these are tribal
40:03gatherings that
40:05were were set up due to a political
40:07desire not because of the desire of the
40:10tribes then they will not be effective.
40:12They were forced there by the Houthis
40:14and so they will definitely fail. But
40:16the tribal gatherings in were not pushed
40:21forward by the government or by any
40:24political desire by any of the actors.
40:26These tribal stands were brought
40:29together because of the injustice
40:30against a tribal leader and the woman
40:33who sought this protection. This man was
40:36humiliated and this was unprecedented
40:38and then things that he might have even
40:40spoken about. And we've seen how he's
40:43broken his Jambia belt. And this is
40:46something
40:48and this is a significant uh step or
40:51measure to take and the only way to
40:53appease him would be to
40:56secure the release of the the woman that
40:58he is protecting. And the more important
41:00point here,
41:05this tribal gathering or the might be
41:08exploited or might be taken advantage
41:10of. this is something that's possible
41:11and that this might uh the context might
41:14broaden and I I believe that this is a
41:17positive actually indicator that if if
41:19this leaves the political the tribal
41:21context it becomes a political issue
41:23then
41:24there will not be conflicts between the
41:26tribes and so these we will not have to
41:29deal with these tribal vendettes for
41:31decades because if the problem was seen
41:35as a problem between the tribes of Sahar
41:37and the tribes of of then this might be
41:40a tribal vendetta that continues for
41:41decades but if it is an armed military
41:44conflict with for political purposes
41:46then we will not have the tribal
41:47vendettas in the future and the conflict
41:49will be limited to the tribes and the
41:52legitimate authorities on one side and
41:53the Houthis on the other. Thank you very
41:55much. Abd you spoke about the military
41:58option and the military option here if
42:01we if it is done under the umbrella of
42:03the legitimate government the internally
42:06recognized government then it is a
42:08political decision and that decision has
42:09not been made and if we say that it is
42:11going to be a political option without
42:13without the support of the government
42:14then it would be akin to suicide. We've
42:17seen what the Houthis have done in
42:20other areas. The Houthis are have been
42:23dominant in their conflicts. They're
42:24much larger than any tribe. And so how
42:27would a situation such as this be dealt
42:30with
42:35over to you?
42:36>> Yeah, we can hear you.
42:41We talk about the I'm here to talk about
42:44the the tribes and the capabilities or
42:47the possibility and and the militias
42:48like we've mentioned before. They're
42:50they're supported by regional actors and
42:53they have the supplies and the equipment
42:56and they've also taken control of a
43:00regular military and state institutions.
43:03They have the expertise, they have the
43:05supplies, they have the logistical
43:06support
43:12and they can engage in long-term
43:16or longer term battles. But the tribes
43:19are much more limited in their cap
43:21capacities when it comes to their arms
43:23and the logistical support that they
43:25will get.
43:27>> And so that that's what I meant to say
43:28when the only way we can compare or say
43:31that there is a military option if there
43:32is support from the
43:35legitimate government because otherwise
43:40there's a massive difference in the
43:42capabilities of the Houthis and the
43:43tribes.
43:45But this momentum
43:47And this and the sense of injustice that
43:51people feel in these tribal gatherings
43:53are are significant. And just like my
43:55colleagues have said when they mentioned
43:59that this woman who is being predict
44:01predicted whether it's me or anyone else
44:04this is something that is
44:06this is a
44:08a major issue and it can only
44:12be restored by her being by her rights
44:15being given back or through bloodshed
44:17even if the tribe has to sacrifice
44:20itself for that. And so the only option
44:23it would be response to their demands or
44:26bloodshed or military confrontation.
44:28Yes, exactly.
44:31Can you please tell us who are the
44:33people that are in these uh in these
44:35tribal gatherings? Who are the tribes? I
44:38think it'll be difficult to say how many
44:39tribes there are.
44:41These are the number of tribes there are
44:43tri is unprecedented. It's tribes from
44:46the northernmost areas from M from even
44:48from the south. Who who are the tribes
44:50from the south? From Aben there are the
44:52Bazm tribes. There are the tribes. There
44:55are also tribes from Shabb from from
44:59Mahar. Many many tribes have come to
45:02what about from the northern areas from
45:04the northernmost tribal areas. Who are
45:06the tribes from these areas?
45:09There are tribes from Hashid,
45:12from Bakil.
45:15There are the tribes of
45:20there are the tribes from from tribes
45:22from Rama.
45:25Many of the Houthies are from tribal
45:27backgrounds. And so how have they failed
45:29to uh to deal with a crisis such as this
45:32one? How have they not realized that
45:33this was a crisis that they could have
45:35resolved without letting it escalate to
45:37this point?
45:40The Houthies usually result resort to
45:42the use of force and and their control.
45:46And if they respond to a tribe,
45:49they'll see that as as a concession that
45:54other tribes will expect in the future.
45:56And these these militias have been in
45:58control of these areas for 10 years now.
46:02They they they do not see it as a good
46:05idea to respond. Have they tried to have
46:06the Houthies tried to negotiate with the
46:08tribes? Have there been attempts to
46:10mediate? There there have been attempts
46:12to mediate but they have not been me.
46:14There have been uh
46:17there might be some mediation efforts
46:19and they might succeed or they might
46:20fail but can we say that these mediation
46:23efforts have failed so far?
46:26I think so far it's difficult to say
46:27that they failed that these mediation
46:28efforts have failed. I don't think we
46:29can say that. So they haven't failed so
46:31far,
46:34but they're they're sending mediators
46:36from the No, they're sending neutral
46:39mediators. Uh mediators who are neutral,
46:42who are accepted by both sides, but
46:45there is no actual mediation happening
46:47on the ground. What do you mean exactly
46:48that there's no mediation happening on
46:49the ground? That this is all done
46:51through communication, but not actually
46:52sending people. And so this is done
46:55through phone calls
46:57or through other means such as WhatsApp.
47:00But there is no uh mediation going to
47:03these areas and then returning to the
47:05areas under control of the Houthis as
47:08usually in the case during any tribal
47:14so usually when a tribal delegation is
47:16sent right they're sent there in person
47:18they're sent to these tribal gatherings
47:19to meet it. Yes. Exactly. That's usually
47:21the case and and that hasn't happened so
47:23far.
47:25there hasn't been any of that sort of
47:27mediation.
47:29Thank you very much.
47:34What you've said has brought up a lot of
47:37questions and comments and
47:40had a lot of comments about your
47:42intervention about the socialist party
47:44and tribes and I know that's not the
47:45topic.
47:46I I I I had some responses to some of
47:49the other colleagues, but uh
47:51unfortunately I don't know if we'll have
47:52the the time to do that
48:02because because it's important for the
48:03tribes to be respected because our
48:06background and uh and I think he knows
48:10that he's his origins from the Benim
48:14tribe. But
48:16but they've thei family are known as as
48:19judges not as
48:23but
48:28okay. So uh
48:31as someone from a socialist background
48:33and a former tribesman
48:41was saying that there was a
48:42contradiction between
48:45civilian life and and tribes and why did
48:48you criticize that the socialist party
48:51ended tribes and why do you think that
48:53this is a mistake? Rashidi had another
48:56comment and it was similar saying that
48:59the socialist party believed in a
49:01civilian or civil state and that was the
49:04purpose behind it trying to end the
49:06tribal system. But
49:11but her question was why do you think
49:12the Houthi or how do you think the
49:14Houthies are trying to use [snorts]
49:19and so why why do you think the
49:21socialist party was against it? The
49:23Socialist Party's leadership in the
49:251970s I think were young men. They were
49:27not very experienced
49:30and I think that they made a
49:33they made a significant uh stride in so
49:38social development in Yemen and they
49:40tried to skip
49:43some of these stages. We're a very
49:44conservative and traditional society and
49:47for us to jump directly into into
49:50socialism was a major shift. They
49:53thought, as some might think, that
49:55tribes were
49:58contrary to civilian life and to
50:01civilian society. And that is not the
50:03case. Tribes are
50:07part of civil society. They're very, but
50:09they're armed.
50:10>> Yes.
50:12And there there's also
50:15and it's it's different from civil
50:17society because you have the but you
50:19have the same thing for example in trade
50:21unions and political parties and the
50:23difference is that with tribes.
50:29This is a closed uh it's like a civil
50:31society. However, it is closed. It's
50:33it's difficult to join or to leave a
50:35tribe easily.
50:38At the end of the day, it's it
50:40represents a segment of society who has
50:43uh the right to work together and to
50:48to use solidarity to achieve their
50:49interest. And the fact that they're
50:51they're armed. There's the reason for
50:53that is that tribes
50:56are not armed because they want to be
50:58armed. They are armed because
51:02they have to. But these are armed
51:04societ. There are some societies that
51:06are heavily armed. There are there are
51:09there are societies that are do not have
51:11the tribalism but are more armed than
51:13Yemen. But tribes recognize what arms
51:17are unlike for example other societies.
51:20I
51:22I I conducted a study in the area of
51:25where they had a war that continued or
51:26conflict that continued for 10 years and
51:28the number of people were killed during
51:30this conflict. And I compared that with
51:34I compared
51:38the the
51:40rate of how many people had been killed
51:42over the past 10 years and Washington DC
51:44in the United States. And I found that
51:47difference was not that significant that
51:49these are people who have been in a
51:50state of conflict for 10 years but the
51:52the murder rate was not different. And
51:55so tribes like I've said it's a response
51:58the responsibility of of implementing
52:01customs and traditions and ensuring that
52:03they're not violated is a collective
52:05responsibility and every tribesman
52:10>> is is a part of that. They they they pay
52:12they have a system like taxes where they
52:14pay that's called they are also each
52:17member of the tribe is responsible for
52:19the protection for the defense for
52:21security for gathering funds or
52:24resources for the tribe and so we cannot
52:27deny
52:32that the tribe plays these roles albeit
52:35in a traditional manner because in the
52:36in other areas like the US for example
52:39you have the NRA
52:42And that that that there is seen as a
52:44civil society organization. It's uh
52:46recognized in the US as such.
52:50And the mistake in dealing with the
52:52tribe is that it's seen as either being
52:56in power or being the enemy of the rest
53:00of society. And I don't think it's
53:01either. It cannot govern. And it cannot
53:04be in power and it cannot
53:08because governance requires having equal
53:11political rights among all the members
53:12of society. And tribes because of their
53:16uh
53:18the tribal connections or identity do
53:22not represent non-members of individuals
53:25who are not members of the tribe and
53:26that's the difference between the
53:27states. Abd
53:29had a question.
53:31Many people are asking the question of
53:32why why was it this case? Why was it
53:34Mid's case that that brought
53:36that led to this trip? There are many
53:38women who are being uh who are subject
53:40to injustice in Houthi prisons. And so
53:42what makes this case more important than
53:44these other ones?
53:47this case and and
53:57this this woman came to a a tribal
54:01figure and she cut part of her hair off
54:04and she threw it at the to end the
54:07injustice against her.
54:12And so from there,
54:14if if the tribe that this woman resorted
54:18to uh calls upon the other tribes for
54:21their support, then the other tribes
54:24will have to answer that call
54:29and they will have to go to support the
54:31tribe that asked for this and and that's
54:32what happened. That's
54:35where the difference lies
54:39and also those who are in Houthi prisons
54:45they're
54:46under
54:48system that we we have been fighting
54:50against these ministry these militias
54:53since 2015
54:55and and we've been fighting not to end
54:57the injustice against specific
54:58individuals or groups but everyone
55:03And these these kinds of violations
55:05violations against women are not
55:06accepted at all tribally or socially.
55:11Can we say that this momentum that we
55:13see in
55:15was this something that was possible
55:18five years ago or four years ago?
55:21Is this
55:23is this due to the popular unrest or
55:26anger against the Houthies?
55:29Might that be the way that you see it?
55:31that
55:35the reason that there was this level of
55:36momentum is because many people
55:40are very unhappy with the way that the
55:41Houthies have been dealing with everyone
55:43else and that this is a shift in the
55:45relationship that could be one of the
55:47that is one of the factors that led to
55:49this momentum. I completely agree with
55:51you that there is that there is popular
55:53anger against the Houthis.
55:57However, I I just wanted to comment on
56:06There were women who cut off their hairs
56:08and asking for protection in other
56:11areas, but there was no response to
56:12them. And so there are grievances. And
56:14as someone who has followed uh tribes in
56:18the northern areas, these actions would
56:20occur in tribal areas that are under the
56:22control [clears throat] of the of the
56:24Houthis.
56:28And so they would be dealt with within
56:29the tribes in these areas. There were
56:31several violations and the Houthis
56:34would send tribes for mediation. And
56:37sometimes the tribes would mediate
56:40between the Houthis and other tribes.
56:43But what made this case different is
56:46that it there was a violation of a
56:48tribal major tribal leader or figure who
56:51had influence in the Deham tribes. And
56:54so he left the the Houthi areas and
56:57called upon the tribes and he is a
57:00charismatic tribal leader and he was
57:01able to win support from the media
57:05and that is why the tribal gathering
57:08became very uh or gained a lot of
57:10momentum and the tribes came together
57:13and the second point is that these tri
57:16this tribal gathering was was conducted
57:18in a area that was safe. What do you
57:20mean it's a safe area or safe area
57:22place?
57:24meaning that these areas
57:27are under the control of the government.
57:31This is someone who had to leave tens of
57:34kilometers. He had to take his family
57:35and himself out of his this his area and
57:39he has left his property in his
57:41ancestral homelands to these tri this
57:43tribal area. If he had set up these
57:46tribal gatherings in the areas under the
57:48in his areas under the control of the
57:50Houthis then the response would have
57:52been a violent military response and
57:54this tribal gathering would have failed.
57:57it would have been buried
58:00and that is why the bin left for this
58:03other area and that's why we see the
58:06response from the other tribes.
58:09These tribal gatherings
58:14they have legitimate demands from the
58:17from the moral perspective that there is
58:19a woman who has resorted to a tribal
58:22leader and she's cut off her hair
58:26and presented to a tribal leader and the
58:28Houthies did not allow mediators to even
58:31get involved. We don't we still don't
58:33know the details of this of this case,
58:38but the tribal demands are very simple
58:40that this woman has resorted to the
58:42tribes. You need to return it to us and
58:44to resolve her her case. But the
58:46Houthies are refusing them. I'm sorry,
58:48there's a quick question here if you
58:50could please answer this.
58:55The Houthies when they used to deal with
58:57tribes, they used to deal with it
58:58through someone who had a level of
59:01charisma among tribal leaders or
59:03influence and the inability of the
59:06Houthis to communicate with tribes. This
59:08this all of this happened without there
59:11being any serious mediation efforts
59:13between the Houthis and the tribes. What
59:15is the reason for that in your
59:16perspective? The Houthies,
59:20they have a very specific ideology and
59:23from their perspective,
59:25tribes
59:27must be a part of their Quranic march
59:31and that they must be loyal
59:35to this ideology without ever asking
59:37why. And that's why
59:39in the previous period the Houthis have
59:42set up supervisors to control tribes and
59:45they've appointed tribal leaders and
59:48these supervisors have caused problems
59:50between the tribes and the Houthis
59:53themselves. So they weren't able to
59:59control the situation in these areas and
1:00:01then the Houthis sensed that there was
1:00:03uh that there was pressure and the group
1:00:06started to behave in these areas in a
1:00:08way that was
1:00:10chaotic and they allowed in some areas
1:00:13tribal leaders to return
1:00:16to their positions. And so they they
1:00:18resolved these
1:00:20these tribal issues without harm or
1:00:23affecting the
1:00:24political or military interest of the
1:00:26group. But the tribes now have reached a
1:00:28point reached a dead end with the
1:00:31Houthis. They felt that they've reached
1:00:33a deadlock
1:00:36and the tribes in the areas under the
1:00:37control of the Houthies. I think we can
1:00:38categorize them into three categories.
1:00:41The first type are those who are afraid
1:00:44of the harm from and I'm not talking
1:00:46about normal
1:00:48civilians here but tribal leaders. The
1:00:51first category are those who are afraid
1:00:52of any violence from the group and so
1:00:54they
1:00:56they they always take any opportunity
1:00:59that they can to show their support for
1:01:01the group and to show their loyalty. And
1:01:03the second type of these tribes, these
1:01:05are famous tribal leaders who have been
1:01:08put on placed under house arrest and who
1:01:10have not been allowed to resolve any
1:01:12tribal issues and these are well-known
1:01:15tribal leaders. And the third group or
1:01:18category
1:01:23These were tribes who were placed under
1:01:25house arrest and they were given a
1:01:27salary
1:01:29in exchange for them not getting
1:01:30involved in any kind of tribal
1:01:32mobilization or tribal affairs. So now
1:01:35what you've done is you've weakened
1:01:36tribes. You've taken away any kind of
1:01:38social meaning and the only role that
1:01:41they play now is for military
1:01:44mobilization to be used against the
1:01:46opponents of the Houthis. And so this
1:01:48mobilization has led to a dysfunction in
1:01:50the relationship between the Houthis as
1:01:52an ideological group and the tribes as a
1:01:56social and tribal system
1:01:59based on collective interest.
1:02:02And and so this situation has led to a
1:02:05state to lack of acceptance or unrest in
1:02:08the areas under the control of the if
1:02:10you ask the tribes in the areas under
1:02:12the control of the Houthis whether they
1:02:14support this tribal stand, they will say
1:02:16yes. with the exception of those who
1:02:18fear for their own positions and we've
1:02:20seen some of the minor tribal I think
1:02:22the point you're trying to make is very
1:02:24clear we'll now move on to Abdah before
1:02:27taking uh questions there are many
1:02:29people who have their hands uph
1:02:34based on what said that if this these
1:02:38demands are politicized they're these
1:02:40are tribal demands and the the stands
1:02:42are tribal but if they're politicized
1:02:44and if the internationally recognized
1:02:47government support it. Will this lead to
1:02:49it losing its momentum especially since
1:02:52uh tribes rely on their own members for
1:02:55support and for collective defense? uh
1:03:01the tribal leaders who are in these
1:03:03areas who represent the tribes, they
1:03:05have a uh
1:03:08I think they
1:03:10they they have this perspective and
1:03:13their objective is to unify
1:03:17uh is to unify tribes and to
1:03:22and to get support or cover from the
1:03:25from the state until they are able ble
1:03:27to achieve
1:03:32and and that's what they're trying to
1:03:34achieve to show that they're not going
1:03:35to remain quiet
1:03:40that it should at least be a day of us
1:03:42trying to uh
1:03:46to champion these tribal causes.
1:03:53>> Thank you very much. We'll now open up
1:03:55the floor for questions. Zakaria, we'll
1:03:58start with you.
1:04:04>> I don't know how to unmute. Zakaria, can
1:04:06can you hear us? Yes. Hello everyone.
1:04:09Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you.
1:04:10Zakaria, go ahead.
1:04:12>> Thank you very much. I had a question.
1:04:16If if tribe uh if this tribal gathering
1:04:20is politicized,
1:04:22do you think that other actors might get
1:04:24involved? External actors for example
1:04:26other than the internationally
1:04:28recognized government. So for example,
1:04:35[laughter] the Houthis are are hostile
1:04:38to all of the surrounding countries. And
1:04:39so for so do you mean Saudi Arabia? Yes,
1:04:41Saudi Arabia and the United States for
1:04:44example.
1:04:54Because most of the politicians that we
1:04:56see
1:05:01have not taken a very clear uh
1:05:04it's not their say
1:05:08that it's it's not their decision. most
1:05:10of the decisions are not made by them
1:05:13that they're made at a higher level by
1:05:15Saudi Arabia or the US for example.
1:05:17Okay. Thank you. The idea is clearwan
1:05:25over to you.
1:05:34>> Hello everyone.
1:05:36>> My question was to
1:05:42What about the there's an indicator that
1:05:44there's a Zi and Sunni divide?
1:05:53Are are the tribal leaders in all parts
1:05:55of the country are they in agreement or
1:05:57are some of the tribal leaders from the
1:05:59northernmost areas are they still
1:06:01supportive of the Houthies or they might
1:06:03have a differing opinion of this or have
1:06:06not announced any clear position so far?
1:06:08Thank you very much.
1:06:11We'll take the
1:06:13final question then go back to our
1:06:15panelists for answers.
1:06:20Shand
1:06:23over.
1:06:28Hello everyone.
1:06:31>> Thank you very much for the session. I'm
1:06:33sorry I mean your voice is very low.
1:06:37>> Hello everyone. Yes. Can you hear me
1:06:38now? Yes, it's much clearer now. Okay.
1:06:42Hello everyone. Thank you very much for
1:06:43this uh session.
1:06:46I wanted to hear about
1:06:53more indepth uh
1:06:57perspectives on the tribal activities of
1:07:00the Nikaf as well as the scenarios that
1:07:03uh
1:07:04Mr. Abdah
1:07:07spoke about if you could if you could
1:07:08have focused on these points of how
1:07:10tribes might respond what are the
1:07:12developments that we might accept but
1:07:15what something that I found interesting
1:07:16was uh what Dr.
1:07:19said in his in him speaking about the
1:07:21tribes in the south and then I had many
1:07:24comments that could be said about that
1:07:25but I also heard uh many of the
1:07:28researchers from the center who repeat
1:07:30this uh narrative and I'm not sure if
1:07:34you have the time to have a spec webinar
1:07:38specifically focus on this because I
1:07:40think in any kind of academic research
1:07:42accuracy is essential
1:07:51There was a news paper in Lebanon that
1:07:54called this the tribal war, the 1986
1:07:56wars. And for us to see that as a core
1:08:00part of these developments without
1:08:03looking deeply deeper into it about what
1:08:05the tribes are, what their components
1:08:07are, I think is a mistake. and also
1:08:11comparing them to the tribes in the
1:08:12north and why these people why these
1:08:15people who came to power even though
1:08:17they were a part of the tribal systems
1:08:21and to what extent might tribal customs
1:08:24actually be effective and the conflicts
1:08:26that occurred in the south was it tribal
1:08:28or was it regional in in nature
1:08:31I think it's important for there to be
1:08:38some might say that this was worse
1:08:40because it it ended the tribal system
1:08:42without creating a replacement. Whereas
1:08:44others might say that this is actually a
1:08:46step forward or a development
1:08:52and as as has happened in other parts
1:08:55around the world before states were
1:08:57built and so from a research perspective
1:08:59I think it's important for us to sorry
1:09:02when speaks about that tribes in the
1:09:06south lost some of their
1:09:10their moral backgrounds are we talking
1:09:13about the war in 1986. How many victims
1:09:16are there in the north? Because of the
1:09:17vendettas, tribal vendettas in the north
1:09:19during the same period. Now these tribes
1:09:22who are there, the Houthies have taken
1:09:23advantage just like one of the
1:09:24colleagues have mentioned like how the
1:09:28dealt with the tribes and did not
1:09:29integrate them and that they were still
1:09:31heavily armed. Now the Houthis have
1:09:34taken advantage of this and they've
1:09:36mobilized the tribes and the tribes are
1:09:37participating just like the Hashemites
1:09:39are in these disasters. And so what are
1:09:42the moral perspective that was speaking
1:09:45about and thank you very much. Thank you
1:09:46very much Rashid Muhammad. We'll take
1:09:48this one final question over to you
1:09:50Rashid.
1:09:55>> And if you could please ask a question
1:09:57quickly. Over to you Rashid.
1:10:02>> Yes. Go ahead.
1:10:05>> Thank you very much Mesa. And I'd like
1:10:07to thank the
1:10:09panelist. I wanted to say that
1:10:14these developments and and these recent
1:10:17developments of tribal mobilization,
1:10:19this
1:10:22shows one of the hidden aspects of the
1:10:26conflict of how the Houth how
1:10:31of of how the relationship has changed
1:10:33between the Houthies and its former
1:10:35allies or actors that the Houthies
1:10:41had under the illusion that they would
1:10:43be partners. But now we've seen this
1:10:44high level of unrest and for things to
1:10:47get to this point of of
1:10:50almost erupting and when these things
1:10:52have been politicized to this extent
1:10:54even if it has not explicitly been
1:10:56stated but these this is a movement that
1:10:58has gone out against a certain authority
1:11:00and that's the only way to understand
1:11:01that context. We can also see this as
1:11:05being a part of the sensitivity of
1:11:07tribes towards tribes in Yemen's history
1:11:09have been a part of the authority but
1:11:11they've also played the role of
1:11:16and whenever the author the power
1:11:18centers would get stronger they would
1:11:20try to
1:11:22change the tribal framework and
1:11:23structures but I think tribes were able
1:11:25to
1:11:28understand this is coming and they've
1:11:30always been able to maintain their
1:11:32position close to uh decision makers or
1:11:35play the role of king makers in this
1:11:37system. And so these tribal gatherings
1:11:39today this
1:11:43this is the beginning of a tribal uh
1:11:45rebellion that I don't think we can rely
1:11:47on to take it all the way to the end but
1:11:48we also cannot fully rely on it. Did you
1:11:51have a question or was it just a
1:11:53comment? Okay. If it was just a comment
1:11:54then I think that's that's enough for
1:11:56now. Thank you very much. Just one final
1:11:58point if you'll allow me. Yes.
1:12:02these tribal gatherings.
1:12:06Oh, I know that you're saying that these
1:12:08are purely tribal and that they're
1:12:09independent to the state. Will they
1:12:11accept that the tribe that that the
1:12:13government leads a military
1:12:17a military operation to restore the
1:12:18dignity of these tribal leaders or will
1:12:20these tribal gatherings refuse any
1:12:23efforts by the by the state and try to
1:12:26create a parallel role for them to the
1:12:28state? And then my final question is
1:12:30there are two questions. Why
1:12:34why did the tribal leaders uh
1:12:38support this woman that way? And and
1:12:40another question why did the Houthis
1:12:43refuse to accept the the role of the
1:12:46tribal leaders. And I think the answer
1:12:47to these two questions shows how tense
1:12:50relations have gotten between the
1:12:52Houthis as a closed off and regressive
1:12:55group. one that wants to try to control
1:12:57and exploit everyone else. Thank you
1:12:59very much.
1:13:03>> We'll hear from Abdah first
1:13:10question on the tribal stand.
1:13:14>> What? Sorry. What was the question?
1:13:21There was a question on the tribal neck
1:13:24or neckup or stand
1:13:28and what it might lead to in the in the
1:13:32coming period. What potential scenarios
1:13:34you see
1:13:36I said this in the beginning that
1:13:40but there was a question there was a
1:13:42question that was asked by one of the
1:13:44participants on the sectarian
1:13:47differences between Sunnis and Zadis.
1:13:51We as Sunnis have never had problems
1:13:54with with with the Zadis for decades. We
1:13:58differ with not with the zadis but with
1:13:59the shis
1:14:01and those
1:14:03and the the ones who are zadis are from
1:14:05zi and they've been fighting against the
1:14:07since 2015
1:14:09and they are in include
1:14:12for example
1:14:14the most recent of which arrived today
1:14:17was the tribe of hash led by hashim
1:14:24and these these are zadi tribes. Mhm.
1:14:30And tribes at these tribal gatherings
1:14:33are are not focused on the topic of
1:14:35Zadis or Sunnis or anything of that
1:14:37sort. The tribes
1:14:40focus on what what what this topic is
1:14:43about about tribes and what tribes need
1:14:45to to do
1:14:47and the importance of tribal solidarity
1:14:49and tribes standing together for tribes
1:14:52and for
1:14:54the dignity and the customs and
1:14:55traditions
1:14:58of tribes.
1:15:02And
1:15:04and because Ahmed Fedram broke his Jim
1:15:07belt in the way that
1:15:11and in the clip that was published on
1:15:14social media
1:15:16and this is what led to the unrest
1:15:26and that is why they're standing withh
1:15:28and
1:15:31the woman is protecting and the fact
1:15:34that there there's there's this
1:15:36unprecedented gathering at these tribal
1:15:40in a way that has not happened since
1:15:422015. And I wanted to clarify some
1:15:43points on tribes.
1:15:45When
1:15:47when the state collapsed in 2011, tribes
1:15:50are the ones who maintained the security
1:15:53on the roads. Tribes are the ones who
1:15:55secured those who were traveling. tribes
1:15:57were the ones
1:15:59who welcomed IDPs from other
1:16:02governorates in Mad. I remember
1:16:06some of the or some of the tribes men uh
1:16:10trib members if if an IDP family would
1:16:12come in, they would leave their homes
1:16:15and they would give their homes to these
1:16:16IDPs
1:16:21just so they would not have to stay in
1:16:23the out in the streets and him them and
1:16:25their families would live out in the
1:16:27open. This is what this is what tribal
1:16:29customs are.
1:16:32>> Thank you very much. Did you have any
1:16:33concluding remarks? Because we'll have
1:16:34to uh
1:16:43after what said about the southern
1:16:46tribes. No, these are tribes that had
1:16:53that faced the problems that they did
1:16:54during the socialist party. At the end
1:16:57of the day, they were still tribes
1:17:02even under the Socialist Party.
1:17:09>> And these are the same tribes and
1:17:10they're no different from the northern
1:17:12tribes
1:17:17and the southern tribes are are tribes
1:17:20that we can be proud of as Yemenes.
1:17:22Thank you very much.
1:17:23>> Um, thank you. Did you have any comments
1:17:27or answers?
1:17:32And there's also a question about tribes
1:17:34during periods of peace and what role
1:17:35they might play. Thank you very much.
1:17:36Thank you, Mesa. I had a quick comment
1:17:39first on I mean just a very quick
1:17:41comment.
1:17:43If if we want to
1:17:45understand Yemen tribes, it's important
1:17:47for us to look at the engagement and the
1:17:50relationship between the tribes and the
1:17:52authorities in both the north and the
1:17:53south. And in the north over the past
1:17:55decades
1:17:59there has been a shifting dynamic and
1:18:01the relationship between the tribes
1:18:03whether under the imam or the republic
1:18:05uh stayed somewhat somehat there have
1:18:08been three main components or groups the
1:18:11tribes and they've been exploited by
1:18:13whoever's in power in whether the mits
1:18:16or the kingdoms we also have the hashite
1:18:18families and we have ci civilian groups
1:18:22who have been in conflict with the
1:18:24tribes throughout this period and they
1:18:26still believe that the tribes
1:18:28hinder the establishment of a real civil
1:18:32state [laughter] and this
1:18:36and this tripartite conflict I I think
1:18:39it's
1:18:40this is where we need to look into to
1:18:42understand the root of these conflicts
1:18:44and for us to come up with solutions to
1:18:46these issues because the tribes are not
1:18:48a stumbling block in the in the on the
1:18:51way to building a state and tribes can
1:18:53be included if there is a political will
1:18:56and any and the political parties are
1:18:58the ones who have tried to fragment the
1:18:59tribes and I don't want to take too long
1:19:01in this we can go back to history but
1:19:02with regards to southern areas or the
1:19:05south I do not I'm not saying that I
1:19:08know everything but we need to recognize
1:19:11that tribal conflicts are like those in
1:19:14the north and these tribes are the same
1:19:18and tribal conflicts
1:19:21and and this is my own personal opinion
1:19:23We can say that these were tribal
1:19:25conflicts covered with a political or
1:19:29regional justification whereas they were
1:19:31they were tribal conflicts and if you'll
1:19:33notice now that the conflict
1:19:36is against from the the people in the
1:19:38east do not want people from to come to
1:19:40the eastern areas and these conflicts
1:19:42will continue unless there is a state
1:19:44that is able to maintain or the or
1:19:48protect the interests of all all of its
1:19:51citizens. With regards to during periods
1:19:53of peace, tribes play a very positive
1:19:56role and they have a system of customs
1:19:59and tradition that can
1:20:03be an inspiration for any real
1:20:06reconciliation and justice after the
1:20:08conflict. During the ongoing conflict,
1:20:10tribes have played very important local
1:20:12roles. In the northern areas, for
1:20:14example, they did not allow the conflict
1:20:17to slide into a sectarian conflict. It
1:20:20continued to be a political conflict
1:20:23despite the fact that the Houthis are
1:20:24trying to demonize the others and the
1:20:26others are trying to demonize the
1:20:29Houthis saying that they're either or
1:20:32in 12 vers but the tribes did not fall
1:20:35into that and [laughter] this is a very
1:20:36positive thing that we have to remember
1:20:38about tribes. The second point the the
1:20:40tribes have contributed to a very large
1:20:42extent
1:20:44in filling the vacuum caused by the
1:20:46hoodies where they've been a the tribes
1:20:48have been able to resolve issues at the
1:20:50local level. And the third
1:20:53point is that the tribes have also tried
1:20:55to facilitate some of the humanitarian
1:20:58aspects and even in the cities tribal
1:21:00customs have become a mechanism for
1:21:03conflict resolution. There's a question
1:21:05also on these most recent uh
1:21:09developments that there has been talk
1:21:11about a tribal neckf in the in the south
1:21:15regarding some
1:21:18of their members who are affected in
1:21:20criminal cases. And so do you think that
1:21:22this development will encourage uh more
1:21:25of a presence and role for tribes
1:21:27because of the absence of the state and
1:21:29state institutions?
1:21:32>> That's the state that we're in. We're in
1:21:33a state of of the absence of a state.
1:21:38We have the internationally recognized
1:21:40government, the legitimate authorities
1:21:42that have their legal status and we
1:21:44concur to that. But in reality, those
1:21:46who are in control of the military and
1:21:48security, there are non-state actors and
1:21:50this is the case in all parts of the
1:21:51country. And so what is our interest as
1:21:54Yemenes? It is is it in our interest
1:21:58for tribes to come back to the forefront
1:22:00and to play the role of the state or is
1:22:02it in our interest for the state to
1:22:04carry out its its own security and
1:22:07military and political roles. [laughter]
1:22:09Whenever the state is weakened, tribes
1:22:11come back to the forefront because they
1:22:13are the alternative to to the state
1:22:15these structures. But at the same time
1:22:21and and there are tribal gatherings in
1:22:22Bahra in different areas and these are
1:22:24tribal tribal gatherings but but there
1:22:27is regional support and support for
1:22:28regional actors and it's clear who is
1:22:30supporting these tribal gatherings but
1:22:32if the legitimate authorities and here I
1:22:34say the legitimate authorities
1:22:36specifically the presidential leadership
1:22:38council and the government if they do
1:22:39not understand that it's important for
1:22:42them to be in control of the areas under
1:22:44the control of the
1:22:46and to ensure that these tribes play a
1:22:49complimentary role to the state and not
1:22:50an alternative for us to leave some time
1:22:52to a lot of people have attacked him in
1:22:55their comments and so we wanted to give
1:22:57him a chance to respond
1:23:04and also the point that Amin mentioned
1:23:06about whether regional divisions versus
1:23:08tribal divisions which is more advanced
1:23:10and also the possibility of regional
1:23:13interference or intervention in these
1:23:15tribal life with regards to tribalism
1:23:17versus regionalism. I think Dr. Adel has
1:23:20already answered some of this. Uh
1:23:23[clears throat]
1:23:23>> the the difference between regionalism
1:23:26and tribalism uh the fact that I've the
1:23:29fact that I've moved to an area I've
1:23:31become a part of it or my identity is
1:23:34there. But if I if I move to for
1:23:36example, I will never I'll never be a
1:23:38hashi or a member of the hash tribe. And
1:23:41so tribes tribalism is much more closed
1:23:44off. There are some mechanism for
1:23:45joining for joining either through but
1:23:48they're not automatic like other uh like
1:23:51regionalism for example will be and with
1:23:53regional it'll be very easy for it to be
1:23:55more comprehensive but but I think it'll
1:23:57be difficult for us to say it's it's a
1:23:59it's just a different form
1:24:02or a different kind of identity but it
1:24:05is more open than than tribal identity
1:24:07would be.
1:24:09What what we saw in the south is
1:24:11something that we are seeing everywhere
1:24:12else that
1:24:15that tribal the tribal identity uh is
1:24:19still what determines at the foundation
1:24:21these conflicts and this is the first
1:24:23identity in many areas of Yemen the
1:24:26first identity the most important
1:24:27identity is the tribal identity. Did you
1:24:30have any concluding remarks about the
1:24:32tribal NECA first stand as well as the
1:24:34tribal activities and the possibility of
1:24:37them being used by regional actors?
1:24:39In my opinion,
1:24:41I I I I pray that things don't go that
1:24:44way because this tribal stand
1:24:48will lead at the end of the
1:24:52will most the the Houthis will use it
1:24:57to strengthen their negotiating position
1:25:00and they have the ability to use it to
1:25:01to do so. and
1:25:06working to resolve this confrontation
1:25:08peacefully has become a responsibility
1:25:11for for every Yemen and for
1:25:15to try to avoid a battle because this is
1:25:17going to be a very painful one not just
1:25:21for the tribes and for the government
1:25:23but also for
1:25:25the opportunities for peace in the
1:25:27country because the the difference in
1:25:30power between the Houthis and the
1:25:32government
1:25:36is significant and the more the strength
1:25:39of the Houthis increase
1:25:43the the weaker the opportunities for
1:25:45peace get. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
1:25:47you very much. Thank you everyone for
1:25:50staying with us for this hour and a
1:25:52half. I know we planned for only an hour
1:25:53and 15 minutes. I thank the panelists
1:25:56for their time and for this very rich
1:25:59discussion. Thank you all very much.
1:26:01Goodbye.

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