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[TRIAL TRANSCRIPT PART 68] - Darlie Routier Trial -Richard Coons, Psychologist — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:05hello and welcome to the beach house 34
0:07podcast I'm your host Christine worth
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0:26you are here you know that I've covered
0:28the darly Routier Tri transcripts from
0:31the very beginning from opening
0:33statements to the last person to testify
0:36in the trial itself do Coons whom you'll
0:40hear from today Dr Coons is a
0:42psychiatrist who talks about how the
0:45brain works after a traumatic event so
0:48let's get on with the testimony of
0:50Richard Coons and the direct examination
0:54is being done by a member of the defense
0:57team Mr Preston Douglas would you please
1:00state your name Richard E Coons C ns are
1:06you a medical doctor yes I am are you a
1:10psychiatrist yes where do you practice
1:13Psychiatry Austin Texas and how long
1:16have you practiced psychiatry in Austin
1:19Texas 22 and 1/2 years with respect to
1:23your educational background in medicine
1:26would you please tell the jury what your
1:27training and background is yes I
1:30attended the University of Texas Medical
1:32branch in Galviston graduated with a
1:35doctor of medicine degree in 1968 I did
1:38a rotating internship at the University
1:41of Cincinnati Cincinnati General
1:43Hospital in 1968 and 69 that basically
1:47means rotating through surgery Internal
1:49Medicine Pediatrics OBGYN emergency
1:52medicine and so forth then when I
1:54completed my internship I moved to I
1:57came back to galston and did a 3-year
2:00General Psychiatry residency basically
2:03that is specialty training in my area
2:06which has to do with the diagnosis and
2:08treatment of nervous and mental
2:10disorders when I completed the residency
2:12I was chief resident in the department
2:14of Psychiatry and Neurology in 1971 and
2:1872 when I completed my medical training
2:20in Psychiatry I then served as a major
2:23in the United States Army Medical CPS at
2:25Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio I ran
2:29the drug an alcohol program for Fort Sam
2:32for 2 years and was a psychiatric
2:34consultant for Brook General Hospital
2:38when I completed my military duty in
2:401974 I moved to Austin where I have
2:44practiced ever since in general and
2:46forensic psychiatry I am board certified
2:48by the American Board of Psychiatry and
2:50neurology as of February
2:531975 my medical license is on file with
2:55the district clerk in Travis County
2:58where I practice do you have any any
3:00privileges at local hospitals in Austin
3:03well I'm not hospitalizing at the
3:05present time I took I am in a clinic of
3:0812 doctors and several of us just do
3:10office practice and don't do Hospital
3:13practice all right in the course of your
3:15experience in forensic psychiatry have
3:18you had occasions to testify in court
3:20yes and can you tell the jury perhaps
3:23how many times you have testified in
3:25court and on what subjects you typically
3:27testify in court and render opinions for
3:30juries on since 1974 when I moved to
3:34Austin I have done virtually all of the
3:36criminal forensic psychiatry in Austin
3:39that is to say I evaluate people that
3:41are charged with crimes to determine
3:43whether they are competent to stand
3:45trial whether they were sane at the time
3:48things of that nature I also have some
3:50consultation in the criminal area and
3:52various jurisdictions and in fact I have
3:55done some evaluations for Kerr County
3:57Fredericksburg and other places around
4:00and I also consult in civil litigation
4:02cases where there are issues of whether
4:05someone was had sustained a mental or
4:08emotional injury or brain damage or
4:10something of that nature okay have you
4:14that is in addition excuse me to my
4:17clinical practice of treating patients
4:20in your clinical practice have you had
4:22occasion to treat people who have been
4:23the victim of or the witness to
4:26traumatic injuries or events yes are you
4:30familiar with the body of literature
4:32that deals with the responses of people
4:34who are either victims of or witnesses
4:37to traumatic events yes Dr Coons have
4:41you been asked to come and talk with the
4:43jury about as an expert on the issues of
4:47memory yes is there a body of research
4:50and accepted legal treaties and medical
4:53treaties that deal with memory yes and
4:56how it relates in a forensic field
4:59there's a significant body of research
5:01and data available are you familiar with
5:03that research and data yes and I want to
5:06ask you as it relates to traumatic
5:08events are you aware of research that
5:11relates to memory and the effects of
5:13memory yes now if you will with respect
5:16to the issues of memory can you give the
5:19jury an overview as to the aspects of
5:21memory how memory is formed and how
5:23memory is
5:24retained yes memory people who write
5:28about memory and who study divided into
5:31either three or four different
5:32categories I'm going to do the four
5:35category description first of all a
5:37person perceives something they see it
5:40they smell it they hear it they touch it
5:42and in some ways they experience
5:44something that is the what we call
5:48perception then that having been
5:51experienced that way it is then
5:53processed in the brain in some way it is
5:56assessed it fits in with other data that
5:59you have or it doesn't fit in or there
6:02are feelings associated with it unhappy
6:04feelings fear pleasurable feelings anger
6:08or neutral like numbers or something of
6:11that nature and then it is stored now
6:14there's a lot of research about how
6:15memory is stored but basically the brain
6:18works by electrochemical means and so
6:21there is some electrochemical phenomenon
6:23that is going on in the brain in
6:25different areas we know that certain
6:27types of data are stored in different
6:29areas of the brain so you have the
6:31storage part then you have retrieval of
6:34memory that is someone asks you about
6:37something you recall it or you have a
6:39spontaneous recollection or you see
6:42something that reminds you of something
6:44that is called retrieval so we have
6:46initial perception processing storage
6:49and retrieval now that is how the
6:52information is brought into the brain
6:53and how it is stored is that right
6:56stored and then of course the issue of
6:58retrieval all right right now can you
7:01tell the jury is there a wide range of
7:03literature and accepted material on how
7:05traumatic events affect memory yes okay
7:09can you tell the jury about some of the
7:11literature that you have reviewed and
7:13you think is authoritative on memory
7:16well I would say there are two people
7:18who have written extensively actually
7:21probably three about memory one is a man
7:24named Bessel Vander he is an MD at
7:27Harvard University and he has done a
7:29huge amount of research on data and
7:31Trauma and how trauma and memories are
7:33stored in the brain how there is an
7:36interruption if something is
7:38overwhelmingly traumatic to someone and
7:41they may not actually store it or they
7:43may not be able to retrieve it for some
7:45reason Elizabeth Loftus is a
7:48psychologist at the University of
7:50Washington in Seattle and she is a
7:53psychologist who has done a lot of
7:54research on altered memories where
7:57people can have memories of things that
7:58actually never occurred or they will
8:01have a memory that has been changed by
8:03some intervening event there is also a
8:06man named Rogers who is a PhD who has
8:09done a lot of research on this and he
8:11talks about how memory is changeable so
8:14a person can have a different memory at
8:16different times about an event that they
8:18have to some degree
8:20perceived with respect to trauma and how
8:22it affects a memory in a person's memory
8:25as they perceive a trauma well if you
8:27think about anxiety or traumatic anxiety
8:30if you think about a little bit of
8:33anxiety a little bit of alertness can
8:35improve memory a little bit that is your
8:38attention is drawn to something and that
8:41can cause you to focus on it it has an
8:43emotional impact to you and your
8:45perception processing storage and
8:47retrieval will be improved because of
8:49that if you go beyond that kind of
8:51medium level of anxiety associated with
8:54it and you get into trauma we see the
8:57memory qualities and the intensity of it
8:59d drop off until you get to extremely
9:02overwhelming trauma to an individual
9:04where they may blot it out they may have
9:07an amnesia for what has happened a
9:09traumatic Amnesia that they simply do
9:11not store it properly or it is cut off
9:14from the feelings associated with it or
9:16it is altered in some way when a person
9:19experiences trauma of a significant
9:21nature well first when we talk about
9:24this kind of trauma can you describe for
9:26the jury you know in examples what sort
9:29of trauma you mean and how does that
9:31affect in terms of what types of trauma
9:34can cause someone to have memory lapses
9:36or memory
9:37problems it's fairly wellknown in abuse
9:40of children children will blot these
9:43things out and not recall traumatic
9:45events in adults it would tend to be
9:47something where your bodily Integrity is
9:50threatened death of yourself or some
9:52loved one or someone important to you
9:55Annihilation type things would be an
9:58example is that kind of trauma
10:00frequently found in automobile accidents
10:03it certainly can be I don't know about
10:05it's not a high percentage but you know
10:08it's not you wouldn't expect it in a
10:10fender bender but in a situation where
10:13family members might be killed then it
10:15would it can have partial or complete
10:17amnesia for those events okay and
10:20certainly doctor would you agree that
10:23that type of trauma could be induced
10:25from attacks or witnessing attacks
10:27either to yourself or a love one yes
10:31when trauma confronts the memory and the
10:34person's mind tries to recall events
10:36that have trauma or trauma-induced
10:38events how does the Mind work how does
10:41it react and how does the Mind recall
10:44those events I'm afraid I have no idea
10:47what you have asked me well let me ask
10:49you this how does a person who is the
10:51subject of a traumatic event how does
10:53that person recall things for instance
10:56are you familiar with the term
10:57disassociation yes sir
10:59okay can you describe disassociation to
11:02the jury disassociation is a
11:05psychological defense mechanism what it
11:07does is causes a person not to
11:09experience something that would be
11:10overwhelming to them in other words
11:13emotionally psychologically traumatic
11:16they disassociate it they do not
11:18perceive it in terms of what's going on
11:20they can disassociate part of it they
11:22can disassociate the feeling they can
11:24disassociate the experience of it but
11:27it's a psychological defense Mech ISM it
11:30protects the person from overwhelming
11:32psychological trauma okay in what kind
11:35of based on your training and experience
11:37in what kind of situations can a person
11:39have those disassociation factors in
11:42their
11:43memory well it would vary from person to
11:45person whatever would be
11:47catastrophically overwhelming to a
11:49person could potentially cause
11:51disassociation some people would not
11:54disassociate other people would be a lot
11:56more vulnerable to it are you famili
11:59with a phenomenon that occurs in memory
12:01lapses and disassociation where a person
12:04may recall a traumatic event and that
12:06traumatic event is recalled in effect
12:09like snapshots are you familiar with
12:11that yes can you explain that to the
12:14jury well memory is not like a videotape
12:18we have discovered that with research
12:20you don't if you are thinking back to
12:22last Friday's football game or the Super
12:24Bowl you don't start at the kickoff and
12:27go through all the beer commercials and
12:29so forth to the end you have
12:32Recollections perhaps of special plays
12:35that occurred or the touchdown or
12:36something and you have these snapshot
12:39type vignettes although they may be
12:41action they are shorter in duration than
12:43the whole game so the mind doesn't work
12:46like a videotape now when people try to
12:48remember something they try to go back
12:50and piece it together as if it were a
12:52videotape but that is not the way the
12:54memory works so am I correct Dr Coons
12:58that a person members in effect
13:00snapshots in different parts of the
13:02traumatic event they can I mean it
13:04depends you know it depends on how
13:06traumatic it is if it's lightly
13:09traumatic they may have a good
13:11recollection of it if it's extremely
13:13overwhelming they may have no
13:15recollection of it or they may have
13:16periods that they or incidents that they
13:19recall of it and those would tend to be
13:22not the most traumatic portions so what
13:25do you mean by that is the portions that
13:27the person would recall are the those
13:29parts that are in effect removed from
13:32the source of the trauma yes if the
13:35trauma is such that it is overwhelming
13:37to the person the parts that will be
13:39removed are the parts that would have
13:41overwhelmed them okay can you give the
13:44jury examples that illustrate that type
13:46of
13:47disassociation a traumatic event where a
13:49person's children have are in the house
13:53and they wander around through the crowd
13:55asking where are my children yet they
13:58know they are in the house they have
14:01heard them scream or something of that
14:03nature where a person is overwhelmed by
14:05what's in other words to actually
14:07perceive what was going on would be
14:09psychologically overwhelming to them so
14:11they disassociate it and they don't
14:13recall it okay now what phenomenon
14:16occurs with the mind when it experiences
14:19those snapshots of memory but there are
14:22gaps does the Mind accept very well gaps
14:24in memory well the Mind tries to fill in
14:27the gaps so that our experiences in life
14:30make sense and people tend to do that
14:32with things that are familiar to them if
14:35you go to if you talk with someone who
14:36is becoming scile and you ask them what
14:40they had for breakfast they may tell you
14:42bacon and eggs because that is what they
14:44have had 80% of the time in their life
14:47but actually they may have had cereal or
14:49something for breakfast that morning
14:52they are confabulating they are trying
14:54to fill in the gaps the term is
14:56confabulation and you will see that both
14:59in people with organic brain damage or
15:01people who have an imperfect memory they
15:04will try to make it make sense they will
15:06try to fill it in with data the data can
15:09either be imagined it can be from their
15:11life at another time it can be from
15:13suggestions made to them by other people
15:15quote did this happen well I think maybe
15:18that is what happened unquote and then
15:21they take that in as a piece of data now
15:24that is they assume is a part of their
15:26memory am I correct Dr Coons that what
15:29you are trying to tell me is that the
15:31mind will struggle to fill in those gaps
15:34yes it would all right the Mind does not
15:37like a vacuum the Mind does not like for
15:40things not to make sense so it will try
15:42to fill in those gaps have you seen in
15:45your clinical experience examples of
15:47that yes okay can you give the jury an
15:50example of traumatic situations where
15:52the mind has tried to fill in gaps well
15:56in mistaken situations where I was
15:59involved in a case one time where there
16:02were five witnesses to a shooting and
16:04all five people only one person had an
16:07axx grind that was the person who shot
16:09the other one the others are just
16:11bystanders and they all had
16:13significantly different stories about
16:14what happened and it was a situation in
16:17a convenience store where one man shot
16:20another and the witnesses had some
16:23people on the aisle sometimes they were
16:25on that aisle or they had them standing
16:28this way or this way and they had them
16:30saying different things some of them the
16:32witnesses had them close together others
16:35had them far apart and they were all
16:38four of those uninvolved Witnesses with
16:40no AXS to grind had significantly
16:43materially different stories about
16:45something that happened in the morning
16:47in a convenience store and that was
16:49after they had been this was within
16:52close proximity to the event oh yes I
16:55mean they the police showed up right
16:57after this and split all up and took a
17:00statement from them and everybody's
17:01statement was different they had been
17:03through a traumatic situation a shooting
17:06and a man is dead in a convenience store
17:09but most of them thought it had to do
17:11with the robbery and so forth it
17:13actually wasn't it was a it wasn't a
17:16robbery and is that frequently like the
17:19game you will see frequently played at
17:21birthday parties or something where one
17:23person will tell a story and then you
17:25whisper it to the next person and to the
17:28next person and the next person and when
17:30that story has made the complete circle
17:33it's different from when it
17:34started well that's a game called gossip
17:37and there is a significant difference in
17:40gossip but what has happened is these
17:42people have their own set of ideas about
17:45what is going on here and then they try
17:47to tailor their memory of the event is
17:49altered by their own perceptions their
17:52anxiety these people in the convenience
17:54store thought that they were in grave
17:56danger themselves with gunfire going on
17:59so it distorted their memories how is a
18:02situation resolved how do you resolve a
18:04situation where you have different
18:05stories from dramatically from the same
18:08perspective in effect people sitting in
18:10the same room how do you resolve that
18:12how do you explain that how do you
18:15explain it well how do you resolve the
18:18differences between these do you chalk
18:20it up to differences in perceptions or
18:23how do you resolve that well they can't
18:26all be right as a matter of fact maybe
18:28no body is right maybe they are all
18:30incorrect because their stories are all
18:33different but you know you may not be
18:35able to find out exactly what went on
18:37from those
18:38Witnesses they have a memory of it and
18:40whatever their memory is belongs to them
18:43correct or
18:44incorrect is it true doctor that many
18:47times an eyewitness or even a victim can
18:50be the worst person to relate an event
18:53yes particularly in traumatic
18:56situations that in effect would be the
18:59last person you would want to try to
19:01explain what happened well I mean you
19:04would want to hear what that person said
19:06but you have to take into consideration
19:08that they that their memory may be
19:09distorted of it as it often is earlier
19:13you talked about the type of things that
19:15can lead to the altering of memory when
19:17memory is trying to fill in the gaps yes
19:20okay and you said the mind kind of wants
19:23to run like a videotape but the mind
19:26doesn't run like a videotape that's
19:28that's right then you gave some factors
19:31that when someone tries to fill in the
19:32gaps in their memory what can happen can
19:35you go back through those factors to the
19:37jury and in particular I want you to go
19:39into
19:40suggestibility well I mean memory is
19:42made up of data where the data comes
19:44from I mean you could dream it up
19:46yourself somebody could suggest it to
19:48you it could be an actual memory it can
19:50be a distortion distorted memory of what
19:54actually occurred but we know for
19:56example there is a con concept of
19:59recovered memories which are in fact not
20:01correct or the you can produce memories
20:04in people of situations which absolutely
20:07did not occur that is Elizabeth loftus's
20:09work at the University of Washington I
20:12mean she has demonstrated over and over
20:14again how you can suggest to someone
20:16show them a videotape of a situation
20:19with cars at an intersection and ask
20:21them quote how far was the white car
20:24from the stop sign when the red car went
20:27by unquote and they will say well I
20:30think it was about 100 ft and it was not
20:33a white car at all and there was not a
20:35stop sign now you asked them well what
20:39were the colors of the car red and white
20:43now was there a stop sign yes things of
20:47that nature by suggestion you can give
20:49people and they will include it in their
20:51memory and they can pass a polygraph on
20:54it is it safe to say that a person who
20:57has the gaps in in the memory wants to
20:59rely on the suggestion to try to fill in
21:01those gaps yes and one a person wait a
21:05minute when you say they want to rely on
21:08the suggestion I can't say that they
21:10want to rely on the suggestion they want
21:13to have a memory of it the Mind abhor a
21:17vacuum and it wants an answer and
21:19unfortunately some of those answers come
21:21from incorrect data what is the best way
21:24Dr Coons to recall memory that has been
21:27I want to use the word lap but
21:29disassociation what is the best way to
21:32retrieve that memory well if it in fact
21:35is there you allow the person to tell
21:37you you don't ask them well did this
21:40happen or did this happen or did this
21:41happen because if they don't know they
21:43may select one of those things as an
21:46actual memory when it wasn't
21:47true now when you say you want to allow
21:50them to recreate the memory is it also
21:53important what type of atmosphere and
21:55surroundings that person is in when you
21:58try to recreate the memory or help them
22:00recreate the memory it is best when it
22:03is a supportive quiet calm not
22:06emotionally charged
22:08situation is it in fact
22:10counterproductive to try to deal with
22:12gaps in memory with suggestions in an
22:15emotionally charged atmosphere yes you
22:18run the risk of suggesting data that the
22:20person will then incorporate into their
22:22memory and thereby get a distorted
22:25recollection can you give the jury an
22:27example of that yes we have had
22:29situations where for example there are
22:31some false memories that come from
22:34what's called erogenic production of
22:36false memories where the doctor or the
22:38therapist will suggest things to a
22:40person which they then will take in and
22:44form as a memory of abuse or something
22:46that actually didn't happen but they now
22:48accept it as truth Dr Coons let me work
22:51through with you in a hypothetical
22:54situation assume with me doctor that you
22:56have a young mother 26 years of age that
22:59the mother is very committed to her
23:01children to young boys as well as a
23:03toddler I want to say but really an
23:05infant aged child that that mother is
23:08not only deeply committed but spends a
23:11great deal of time with those boys and
23:14also assume that the relationship
23:15between the mother and the boys is
23:17healthy and there is no prior history of
23:20abuse there is no prior history of
23:22neglect and also assume with me doctor
23:25that the marriage is stable and that
23:26there are the typical rough Seas for
23:29want of a better word that a marriage
23:30would have but by and large a stable
23:32marriage without periods of separation
23:34or threat of divorce that sort of thing
23:37also assume with me doctor that that
23:39mother becomes the subject of a
23:41traumatic event and attack and assume
23:44with me doctor that that mother is
23:47Witnesses and is present when the oldest
23:49two boys are that she is the victim of a
23:53blunt trauma attack to her arms a
23:55stabbing attack to one arm and what has
23:57been described as a large slash wound to
24:00her neck now with the hypothetical of a
24:03mother in that situation I want to ask
24:05you first doctor in dealing with the
24:08relationship to a mother and child is
24:11there any stronger bond that you are
24:13aware of that is generally the strongest
24:17the most intense particularly with
24:18younger children that are requiring a
24:21protection and nurturing and Care by a
24:23mother can you explain that bond to the
24:26jury I mean it's fairly obvious but what
24:30research and psychological data shows
24:32that that bond is as strong and as
24:34primary as it is well I don't know that
24:38anybody has done a specific study that
24:40shows it I think we know from dealing
24:42with families and dealing with mothers
24:43and children and family dynamics that
24:46that is an extremely strong bond we also
24:49know from dealing with mothers whose
24:50children are ill for example or in
24:53trouble in some way their emotional
24:55response is extremely strong
24:59and moving back to in general I mean
25:01there are some mothers who don't have a
25:03close relationship with their children
25:05but that is the exception rather than
25:07the rule moving back to the hypothetical
25:10of a mother as I have described who is
25:12the subject of a traumatic attack to
25:14herself and also the of her children by
25:17violent injuries would it be consistent
25:20with your training and your experience
25:22and your knowledge with memory and what
25:25you have testified to the jury that a
25:28mother mother in that situation would
25:29disassociate from that
25:31trauma well it's certainly very possible
25:34that is the kind of overwhelming trauma
25:36that leads to disassociation not always
25:39but can lead to
25:41disassociation when you talk about an
25:43overwhelming trauma could an
25:45overwhelming trauma described as I have
25:48disassociate a person even to the extent
25:51that their first recollection of the
25:52traumatic event is after the event such
25:56that there is no recollection of the
25:57event itself the traumatic event yes and
26:02is that recognized as I don't want to
26:04use the word common but is it recognized
26:07as a response which has happened in the
26:09past and is not beyond the realm of
26:11possibility that's right okay and are
26:14there in the course of a traumatic event
26:17there are certain things which can bring
26:19a person and I don't want to use the
26:21word trigger but bring a person into
26:23recollection do you know what I'm trying
26:25to get at not yet okay
26:28if a person is disassociated and begins
26:31to have recollection of events let me
26:33ask you doctor would it be consistent
26:36that contact with a child that strong
26:38bond could be the stimulus to start
26:41recollection and start the memory
26:42process back again yes can you explain
26:46that to the jury well I mean nobody
26:49disassociates forever I mean they just
26:51don't disassociate and that is the end
26:53of mental functioning at some point they
26:55start becoming aware of what is going on
26:58again after a disassociative experience
27:01and a child's appearance or touch or
27:03whatever could be that stimulus okay
27:06would it be consistent with the aspects
27:08of memory that you have testified to in
27:11disassociation that upon recalling in
27:13that hypothetical situation the events
27:16as they occurred that in effect
27:18snapshots would be recalled by the
27:20person and that it would be consistent
27:22to have lapses of
27:24memory if a person has been
27:26traumatically overwhelmed to the point
27:28where they have had
27:29disassociation they may not go from a
27:31completely disassociated state to a
27:34completely alert aware attentive normal
27:37state it may come back in with vignettes
27:40or occurrences it may not just be like a
27:44marble rolling off the table you go from
27:47complete disassociation to complete
27:50normaly okay so you would expect that
27:53there would be periods of clarity and
27:55periods of vagueness and periods of
27:57clarity
27:59let's say that that would not be
28:01uncommon that is certainly feasible
28:03ordinarily a traumatic event a person
28:05doesn't go from disassociated to normal
28:08they go from disassociated to starting
28:11to get back with what is going on okay
28:14and would it be common that the point
28:16that the person has the greatest amount
28:17of disassociation would be the most
28:20intense part of the traumatic event
28:23whatever to them would be the most
28:25anguished emotionally anguishing is the
28:27most like to be
28:29disassociated is it also common doctor
28:32that in the course of remembering and
28:34trying to fill in the gaps that a person
28:36would remember the most insignificant
28:38matters while not remembering the most
28:41significant matters yes can you explain
28:45how that works well as a person moves
28:48from the disassociation that is involved
28:50with an extremely traumatic event as
28:53they return to awareness they are going
28:55to be their attention and so forth is
28:57going to be spotty and you would expect
29:00it to be with less emotionally charged
29:03things certainly not traumatically
29:06overwhelming and let me ask you this
29:07doctor if a person has been in a
29:10traumatic event would it be common that
29:12that person would have a very sketchy
29:14memory and then would be able to
29:16remember later the further you are
29:19removed from the traumatic event even
29:21specific details for instance let me
29:24give you a hypothetical let's assume
29:26that a person is in a traumatic event
29:28an attack is then confronted with a
29:30number of police officers questioning
29:32her immediately after the traumatic
29:35event is questioned and asked about
29:38about her wounds and then begins to be
29:40removed from the scene to be transported
29:42by ambulance to a hospital now in that
29:45traumatic in that hypothetical would it
29:47be unusual for that victim of a
29:49traumatic attack to begin remembering
29:52the further removed from the traumatic
29:54event to be able to start remembering
29:56things as small and and detailed as how
29:59long in the ambulance what the paramedic
30:02may look like what hospital the
30:03paramedic is taking them to if there is
30:06a controversy as to which hospital to go
30:09to yes the further out from the
30:13necessity for disassociation minding
30:16that disassociation is a psychological
30:18protective mechanism then the farther
30:21out you are from that the more normal
30:23your perceptions and memories you would
30:25expect to be now an example of a mother
30:28who has been involved in an automobile
30:30accident with a child and the child may
30:33be are there points where the mother
30:36would it be common let me ask you this
30:38would it be common for the mother to
30:39completely block out the traumatic
30:41events of the automobile accident but
30:44remember with detail the events that
30:46follow such as what medical treatment
30:48was rendered how long it seemed to take
30:50to get to the hospital very detailed
30:53events later yes if the event is
30:56traumatic to her you would expect her
30:59level of excitement to impair her memory
31:01as the traumatic event on her diminishes
31:04you would expect her memory to be better
31:07going back to the first hypothetical
31:09that I gave you would it be unusual for
31:12when the Mind tries to explain and you
31:14try to explain when your first memory
31:18and what brought it about would it be
31:20unusual to have that first memory be in
31:22the middle of an event because you have
31:24in effect blocked out the traumatic
31:26event and and would it be unusual to say
31:30my first recollection is waking up would
31:32it be unusual that the recollection must
31:35be well I must have been asleep let's
31:39say it's reasonable to say that because
31:41a person a person who is disassociating
31:44doesn't know that they're disassociating
31:46all they know is the first thing I
31:48recall is such and such and most of us
31:51would associate that with waking up but
31:53people who disassociate do not know that
31:56they are disassociating so the mind in
31:59trying to struggle for an explanation of
32:01why they don't remember a traumatic
32:03event the mind would it's not uncommon
32:05for a person to say I woke up would you
32:08agree with that doctor well I don't know
32:11how many I have actually asked about
32:13that but that certainly is the most
32:15logical explanation for how a person
32:17would perceive that how else are they
32:19going to explain not recalling the rest
32:21of it other than to say well I woke up
32:24or I came too since they don't know they
32:27are dis associating okay now I want to
32:30ask you a little bit about medications
32:32and how medications can affect recall
32:34and memory can you tell the jury how if
32:37you have a person who is
32:39disassociated how would medications
32:41affect the ability to begin recall and
32:43how would it impair the ability to begin
32:46recall well you can have a beneficial
32:49effect from sedating type medications
32:51for recall because it will decrease the
32:54anxiety or you can have further
32:57distortions because of the distorting
32:59effect of the medication so you can have
33:01either one okay are you familiar that
33:05medication can be a disinhibitor yes in
33:09effect certain medications can cause a
33:11person to be more relaxed and more
33:13likely to relate an event due to the
33:17medication yes it and it's kind of like
33:19alcohol it's a disinhibitor and removes
33:22anxiety okay I want to well now are you
33:26talking about pain medications generally
33:29analgesics and sedative type
33:31medications right for instance Demerol
33:34could Demerol have those effects yes
33:37what about feneran yes certainly the
33:41type of medications that are used in
33:42general anesthesia could have that
33:45effect isn't that true Dr Coons well it
33:48depends on whether you're talking about
33:50a premedication and often people are
33:52given something like valium or demoral
33:54before they receive an anesthetic to
33:56calm them down relax the muscles so they
33:59use less anesthetic then when you are
34:02waking someone up if they have had an
34:04anesthetic then they come out of that as
34:07they blow off either the gases or they
34:09metabolize if it's an intravenous
34:11anesthetic they will metabolize it okay
34:14let me talk to you in terms of another
34:16hypothetical imagine that a victim of a
34:18violent attack has been operated on has
34:21been placed under general anesthesia
34:24been through surgery for some hour and
34:2615 minutes upon on arrival to a recovery
34:29room approximately 6 a.m. receives 25 mg
34:33of demeral the same dose of feneran and
34:37then begins to come out of the effects
34:39of those medications awakens to
34:41Consciousness and then assume doctor
34:43that the person begins to come in
34:45contact with a steady stream of family
34:47members nurses as well as police
34:50officers who begin to suggest and
34:52question as to the events surrounding an
34:55attack also assume doctor that the
34:57victim has disassociated significant
35:00portions of the traumatic event could
35:02improper questioning and suggestions
35:05given to that victim greatly affect
35:07their recall and their memory yes and
35:11you would expect I would expect them to
35:13be for a person to be more vulnerable to
35:16suggestions and questioning and
35:17providing data as a part of the
35:19interrogation as a result of the
35:21medications than if they hadn't been on
35:24medication all right when a person is
35:26confronted with questions like let's say
35:28you're trying to identify an attacker
35:30and a person is confronted with
35:31questions was the person this size and
35:34brings in a live person was it my size
35:37or was it this guy's size and the person
35:39is given some Choice suggested a choice
35:43can that be to lead to the type of
35:44suggestion which would cause false
35:47memories yes they are asked to make a
35:49decision about I mean if the person is
35:51asked what size the individual was that
35:54is an open-ended question if they say
35:57was it this size or this size then they
36:00are placed in a position of making a
36:02choice and the mind has a tendency
36:04toward filling in the gaps and would
36:06have a tendency toward making a
36:08selection so suggestibility would cause
36:11someone to pick a or b yes it can it
36:14doesn't have to but it can now when that
36:18begins to be recounted over and over
36:20again how does the retelling a story
36:23even if wrong over and over again begin
36:25to affect memory does it get to where
36:28it's ingrained in the mind yes I think I
36:31am a whole lot better basketball player
36:33now than I was when I was playing
36:35basketball you know you recall things
36:37that strengthen the memory over a period
36:40of time now after a person has continued
36:43to recount stories and also been
36:45suggested versions over a period of time
36:49I'm sorry after you have been suggested
36:52for instance is it not unusual for
36:55people to say well you have a wound on
36:58your arm and you were attacked how did
37:00you get that and could it be this or
37:02could it be that in when a person's
37:05memory people want to try to help you
37:07out isn't that right have you seen that
37:09frequently yes yes what they try to do
37:12is say well could this have happened how
37:16does that affect suggestibility with a
37:18person's mind does the Mind latch on to
37:20those suggestions it certainly can that
37:24is a phenomenon that we try to avoid is
37:26contamination you let people tell you
37:28what happened rather than try to offer
37:30them suggestions that is that's not the
37:33best way to do it okay let me ask you
37:35this are you familiar with Dr Philip
37:37Resnik yes sir is he an authoritative
37:40doctor and well recognized and respected
37:44well Phil Resnik is probably the best
37:46teacher that I have ever experienced in
37:48terms of his command in terms of his
37:50ability to present material the clarity
37:53of his thought and so forth he is one of
37:56the most renowned Forensic psychiatrists
37:58in the world certainly America okay you
38:02use the term confabulation yes and I'll
38:05ask you when the Mind tends to fill in
38:07the gaps and you turn that confabulation
38:10is that unintentional yes that is the
38:13result of the Mind the old term is the
38:16Mind plays tricks on you yes well I mean
38:19it's not so much the Mind plays tricks
38:21on you it's that you are coming up with
38:23answers to questions whether the data is
38:25there to back it up or not okay
38:27you ask somebody in a nursing home what
38:30did you do today and they will often
38:32just fill you up with information which
38:34is wrong let me ask you in terms of a
38:37hypothetical situation imagine that in
38:40assume doctor that you have a young lady
38:4326 years of age who has been the witness
38:45and victim of a traumatic event the same
38:48lady loss of children very dear to her
38:51that that woman has been the subject of
38:53disassociation as to the traumatic event
38:56that the lady has been been repeatedly
38:58questioned over and over again as to the
39:00event and that some of that questioning
39:02has been in the form of suggestion as to
39:05the event and assume doctor that the
39:06lady is completely Cooperative
39:09throughout the process with authorities
39:11to try to Aid the authorities in finding
39:13the attacker or the perpetrator of the
39:15offense and assume for a minute that the
39:17lady comes into contact with a police
39:19detective of 20 years experience and
39:22that in the course of a 3-hour
39:24questioning she is as many as 6 to 12 12
39:27times suggested you did this killing you
39:30were the one that did this act and
39:32assume that the person made statements
39:34to the effect of well if I did it I
39:36don't remember it would you in many
39:38respects expect the person to make that
39:41type of statement I would expect someone
39:44who has experienced disassociation to
39:46wonder what happened to if they
39:49experienc disassociation that there are
39:52things there are aspects of it that they
39:54don't recall and that I wouldn't find
39:56that a usual a person who is seeking to
39:59fill in the gaps might well entertain
40:02what is being suggested by a veteran
40:04detective now let me ask you this then
40:06does the failure and assuming the
40:08hypothetical that this Cooperative
40:10person does not say quote but I didn't
40:12do it would that surprise you that the
40:15person would not make that affirmative
40:17statement I guess I mean your
40:19hypothetical doesn't involve what the
40:21person did say but if the person is
40:23saying someone else did it that is
40:26tantamount to saying I didn't do it I
40:28mean that well if a person has
40:30consistently said there was another
40:32attacker yes then that is the same
40:35statement of I Didn't Do It yes to me it
40:38is and you wouldn't expect a person who
40:41was in the midst of saying there was
40:43another person that did it would be
40:45expected to say there was another person
40:47that did it and I didn't do it I don't
40:50think I have ever it's
40:53redundant now let me ask you a couple of
40:55questions first Dr Coons you have
40:57testified in court before in cases that
41:00Richard mosty was involved in and also
41:02cases that I was involved in is that
41:04correct yes well and that has been for
41:08and against yes all right you have
41:11testified some years ago in a case state
41:13of Texas versus Randy woles where you
41:16were a state's witness and Mr mosty
41:19represented the defendant is that right
41:21yes sir and then you had testified in
41:24two other cases that Richard and I were
41:25in one in GES County and one in Kimble
41:29county is that right yes and you were
41:32paid for your testimony here today is
41:34that right I am going to send a bill I
41:37hope I will be paid yeah what is your
41:39hourly rate $360 per hour okay and had
41:44you previously consulted Richard mosty
41:46sometime last month about memory and
41:48those issues yes he called me and asked
41:51me if I would talk with him and he came
41:53to Austin and we talked okay and is it
41:56fair to say that over the course of your
41:58career that you have testified numerous
42:00times for the State of Texas yes many
42:03times have you in the past been retained
42:05by Dallas County to testify I have been
42:08yes I have testified in Dallas as a
42:11prosecution witness for the District
42:13Attorney's Office yes Mr Douglas then
42:16says if I can have one moment your honor
42:19and the court says all right and then
42:21continues the questioning doctor let me
42:23ask you for a mother to her children
42:26wouldn't it take an over overwhelming
42:27impetus for that to happen and Mr Toby
42:30shook of the prosecution says judge I
42:33will object to this going outside the
42:34scope of the 705 hearing the court says
42:37sustained and Mr Douglas continues you
42:40familiar with that Bond are you not Mr
42:44Moulder says well judge do we need to
42:45have another hearing the court says I
42:47don't think we do I think that Mr
42:49Douglas is perfectly capable of pursuing
42:52this in question and answer form go
42:54ahead Mr Douglas Mr Douglas then says
42:56well we may need another 705 hearing is
43:00what I'm trying to say and the court
43:02says what was the last question Mr shook
43:05says well the purpose of that was to get
43:07that all out in the first place Mr
43:10Douglas says well I thought I made that
43:12clear let me go into one other thing the
43:14court says please go ahead well let me
43:16see both sides a minute up here so a
43:19short discussion is held off of the
43:21record and then proceedings were
43:23continued and Mr Douglas continues his
43:26questioning doctor the question I asked
43:28you was for a mother to children would
43:32it not take an overwhelming impetus to
43:35start that event into
43:37fruition well I would answer that by
43:39saying that it would depend on the
43:40mother unfortunately some mothers are
43:43not as close to their children some
43:45mothers are psychotic or something of
43:47that nature but in general and in
43:50particular if you stick with your
43:51hypothetical person in this case I would
43:54say that it would it would take and that
43:56is an extremely unusual event for a
43:59mother with a good relationship with her
44:00children let's talk about psychosis for
44:03a minute a person who is psychotic is
44:05one who can a person be psychotic and
44:08turn that on and off like a water faucet
44:11no a person who is psychotic would show
44:14signs of psychosis prior to a psychotic
44:17event is that right yes is it consistent
44:21when you say prior to a psychotic event
44:23I mean generally psychosis just doesn't
44:26turn off and on
44:27it comes on and it stays and you if it's
44:30of any particular intensity people are
44:33going to recognize that the person is
44:35talking to God or hearing voices or
44:37something of that nature is it
44:39consistent with psychosis if from a
44:42mother's standpoint wouldn't there be
44:44signs of failure to keep up failure to
44:46keep up your personal appearance failure
44:49to keep up your home failure to carry on
44:52as you had in everyday life if the
44:54psychosis is at all intense it will be
44:57apparent and it will adversely affect
44:59your
45:00functioning to the point that let me ask
45:02you this other question doctor when you
45:05see someone with a psychosis is it often
45:07that that psychosis carries on for a
45:10number of hours after the psychotic
45:12event such as that person remains
45:15psychotic well I mean there are only
45:17reasons that you would be one would be
45:20psychotic you can become psychotic from
45:22taking LSD or something of that nature
45:25you could be schizophrenic you can have
45:27a manic depressive illness where you get
45:30Manic and hear voices and things like
45:32that those are not short-term things
45:35they tend to last a while so you are not
45:37talking about a matter of hours so I
45:40mean that would be real unusual Mr
45:43Douglas says thank you Doctor pass the
45:45witness and the court says Mr Shook and
45:47Mr Toby shook begins his
45:50cross-examination Dr Coons just a few
45:52questions did you make any reports or
45:54notes in regards to this case no okay in
45:57fact the first time you were contacted
46:00was by Mr mosty in December is that
46:02right yes okay did he come and speak to
46:05you about what you have talked about in
46:08front of the jury memory and things like
46:10that yes I mean I know that memory was a
46:13large part of what we talked about okay
46:16and then when was the next time you were
46:18contacted I next spoke with Mr mosty at
46:21about 9:00 last night when I returned
46:23his phone call all right and you have
46:26not interviewed the defendant in this
46:28case darly rer that's right okay you
46:31have not gone over or seen her voluntary
46:33statement have you I don't think so her
46:36husband's voluntary statement I don't
46:39think so you haven't looked at any
46:41police reports or summaries of evidence
46:43anything like that have you I don't
46:46believe I have you have looked at maybe
46:48a couple of photographs I believe
46:51several I think there were some pictures
46:53of the home and some pictures of Mrs
46:55rouer her arms and he cut on her neck
46:58okay you have not reviewed any medical
47:00records have you no have you talked with
47:03anyone else in regards to this case
47:05besides Mr mosty and Mr Douglas Mr
47:08Moulder and Mr Moulder okay anyone else
47:12and the investigator okay anyone else
47:14other than that I don't think so okay
47:17consulted with any other doctors in
47:19regards to this case no have not talked
47:22to Dr Lisa Clayton about this case at
47:24all have you no okay and you have not
47:28interviewed any family members of darly
47:30Routier have you no and you have not
47:33interviewed any of her Physicians that
47:35attended her the day of the attack have
47:37you that's right I have not none of the
47:39nurses no and none of the police
47:42officers that's right okay you have not
47:45viewed what we call the Silly String
47:47videotape the grave site videotape that
47:50was made have you no okay you have just
47:53rendered some well you have given us
47:56some information about memory and what
47:58you know about memory and sometimes when
48:00someone blocks certain aspects of memory
48:03out is that called traumatic Amnesia
48:06well that is not a diagnosis but that is
48:09a term that is used what is the term
48:12used for exactly well it's not an exact
48:15term I mean the way I would describe it
48:18is that the person undergos a
48:20psychological trauma and has and does
48:22not recall then what happened for some
48:25period of time now can have a traumatic
48:27amnesia for physical reasons if you have
48:30a concussion or something of that nature
48:32and you are not telling this jury that
48:34in your opinion darly rouer was
48:36suffering from any type of traumatic
48:38Amnesia or anything like that I don't
48:41know her okay you all have a term you
48:43use called malingering is that right
48:46there is a term called
48:48malingering what could you explain to
48:50the jury what mingering is basically
48:54claiming that you have something that
48:56you don't okay and are there certain
48:58types of cases in which you are trained
49:00as a psychiatrist to be very careful
49:03that a person is malingering yes sir
49:06what types of cases are those oh if a
49:09person has would have some Advantage
49:11from lying about having some kind of
49:13problem that is basically lying about
49:16for money or some Advantage okay money
49:19is one of them also obviously if a
49:22person is accused of a crime that is
49:24another situation where you often have
49:26to be very careful of mingering is that
49:28right yes that is true I mean if there
49:31is any advantage to be gotten from
49:33something someone you always want to be
49:36careful that that is not what is going
49:37on okay and when a person is accused of
49:41the crime of murder capital murder do
49:44you not have to be even extra careful in
49:46those situations that a person might be
49:48mingering or lying specifically saying I
49:52have amnesia I can't remember what
49:54happened yes you would want to be
49:56careful of about that okay if there was
49:58evidence that the crime scene may have
50:00been staged in some ways would that make
50:02you even more cautious that this person
50:04might be mingering sure you would take
50:07that into consideration okay if the
50:09offense was planned if there was
50:11evidence that the offense may have been
50:13planned sometime would that also make
50:15you more cautious about
50:17mingering I don't think it would make me
50:20more cautious I mean you would have the
50:22cautious Factor would be the same
50:24certainly you would take that into
50:26consideration
50:27okay and the type of memory blockage
50:29that you have talked about a person that
50:31forgets a traumatic event is that some
50:33type of mental disorder that you all
50:35have described in the DSM
50:384 well it can amount to it can fit under
50:42a diagnostic category but it is a
50:44psychological defense mechanism that
50:46occurs so it can occur in the absence of
50:49a diagnosable mental illness if you will
50:52okay so the person can have that memory
50:54blockage and not well you usually what
50:57are these situations which would be the
50:59medical disorder well it would probably
51:02always amount to I'm just thinking at
51:04least something like an adjustment
51:06disorder with mixed emotional features
51:09or something of that nature I mean it
51:10would probably qualify for a diagnosis
51:13okay does it fit in I think you call it
51:16post-traumatic stress syndrome no okay
51:20but I mean you can have disassociation
51:22could be a part of post-traumatic stress
51:25disorder it's seen in people who are
51:27highly traumatized they may disassociate
51:30part of what has happened to them now
51:32let's talk a little bit about
51:34medications we're talking about demoral
51:36demoral is a painkiller is that right
51:39yes okay if a person is given a very
51:42small doses of demoral well first of all
51:45let me ask you is demoral like a truth
51:47serum in any way well there is no truth
51:51serum all it is is a sedating substance
51:54alcohol Works quote in veritus is the
51:57Latin for it which means quote in wine
52:00the truth if people get drunk and tell
52:03things that they probably shouldn't be
52:05and then you could use sodium amatol or
52:07various barbituates you can use
52:09tranquilizers things like demeral are
52:11sedating and that would work so there is
52:14nothing magic about it there is no one
52:16truth serum right all it does is get you
52:19drunk it gets you intoxicated so that
52:21you are less anxious and can tell things
52:23that you want to tell basically is what
52:26it does
52:27if you don't want to tell things like
52:29maybe not wanting to confess to
52:31murdering your children a small amount
52:33of demoral is not going to make you do
52:35that to detectives is it not going to
52:38make you do what make you confess all of
52:40a sudden no I mean it's just like you
52:43know a couple of beers or something like
52:46that okay you wouldn't expect if a
52:48person let's say is coldblooded enough
52:50to murder their own children and they
52:53don't want to be punished for that they
52:55want to get away with it and they are
52:57given 25 Mig of Demerol then the
52:59detectives come in the room they are not
53:02going to jump up and say you got the
53:04goods on me I did it you wouldn't expect
53:06that would you well you would expect
53:09them to be more likely to tell under
53:11those circumstances where their defenses
53:14are lowered but simply I mean if that is
53:17all you are talking about in an adult 25
53:19Mig of deol on its own you wouldn't
53:22expect to have that much effect okay
53:24that is a pretty light dosage 25 Mig in
53:28an adult it depends on what is
53:30associated with if it's you know 25 Mig
53:33of feneran along with it and a person
53:36who's also been premedicated perhaps
53:38with volum for their surgery or who is
53:40coming out from under an anesthesia you
53:43add all those things together now you
53:46talk about people try to fill in the
53:48gaps and they are open to suggestion is
53:50that what we're talking about someone
53:53says well did it happen this way and
53:55then go yeah I think it happened that
53:57way I don't know about open to
53:59suggestion they are vulnerable to
54:02suggestion because there are gaps in
54:03their memory and so people tend to try
54:05to fill in the gaps in Mr Douglas's
54:08hypothetical he gave you the mother that
54:10witnessed a traumatic event a central
54:13part of his hypothetical was people
54:14making suggestions about how this event
54:17actually took place if that were removed
54:20from the hypothetical if people didn't
54:23suggest in any way how the event took
54:25place would that change your opinion in
54:28any way well I mean if no suggestion was
54:31made then no suggestion was made right
54:34if you ask a question like well did he
54:37run off well then that suggests that
54:39maybe he ran off rather than walked off
54:41or crawled off or stayed or whatever
54:44that is what I'm saying rather than
54:46saying tell me what happened tell me
54:48everything that you can recall happened
54:50and if a detective let's say went to
54:52this woman in the hypothetical and said
54:55tell me what happened
54:56and she said I was asleep I felt some
54:59pressure on me and there was a man
55:00standing over me and we had a struggle
55:02on the couch and then he ran off that
55:05wouldn't be a suggestion on his part in
55:07any way would it no that would not and
55:11if let's say nurses later on during the
55:13day just said quote what happened and
55:16she said A man was standing over me with
55:18a knife and tried to stab me and he ran
55:20off and I chased after him that wouldn't
55:22be a suggestion on their part would it
55:25not if that is the only only thing you
55:26are considering what that one individual
55:29said no they have just asked tell me
55:31what happened okay if let's say in the
55:35situation where the woman who wakes up
55:37after going into some surgery and there
55:38are detectives there that they want to
55:41question her about the event and there
55:43is a nurse watching over her who is very
55:46observant and says that the detectives
55:48didn't suggest any answers in any way
55:51they just methodically went step by step
55:54and asked her what happened didn't Sugg
55:56just answers that wouldn't be a
55:58situation where she is getting her
55:59memories from another person would it
56:02only to the extent of if the answer is
56:05not suggested you can still encourage
56:07someone to form an answer by saying and
56:10then what did he do you see that causes
56:13the person to have some need to come up
56:15with an answer for that and that is
56:17leading to some extent okay but that is
56:20not true in every case is it what isn't
56:24true that if someone just asked what
56:26happened next that they are going to try
56:28to think up something well then what did
56:31he do was my idea okay then what did he
56:35do then there is an assumption that he
56:38did something else that she noticed that
56:40she ought to come up with and there is
56:42an inclination on the people who don't
56:44for people who don't recall to come up
56:46with an answer you talked about them
56:48blocking out the most stressful part of
56:50the event and then remembering small
56:52trivial details or details that aren't
56:54as important ordinarily you would expect
56:57a person to block out the most traumatic
56:59thing to them the other things that they
57:02could remember would be less traumatic
57:04to them okay in the situation you were
57:06given an attack on your children
57:08obviously and on yourself would be a
57:11very traumatic event I would anticipate
57:13that it would would it also be a very
57:16traumatic event if you were watching
57:17your children lying there bleeding to
57:19death and dying yes okay you actually
57:22might have gone over there touched them
57:25watched their eyes roll up watch them
57:27quit breathing that would be a very
57:29traumatic event would it not I would
57:31anticipate that it would if you observed
57:34your husband breathing into the mouth of
57:36one of the children and blood came out
57:38of holes created by stab wounds in the
57:40chest that would be an extremely
57:42traumatic event would it not I would
57:45expect it would be quite traumatic would
57:48those be the type of events that you
57:49would block out also maybe okay you know
57:53it depends on whether your memory of it
57:55is spotty or not
57:56okay and many times in these situations
57:59you have talked about a person will
58:01block out an event for several hours at
58:03a time is that right for instance the
58:06automobile where maybe a mother has her
58:08children in an automobile accident she
58:11may not remember the driving before the
58:14accident and to several hours later
58:17ordinarily that is not the way it works
58:20usually the traumatic disassociation or
58:22traumatic Amnesia will occur for a
58:25fairly short period period of time and
58:27then the person will begin being more
58:29attentive to what is going
58:31on okay well let me ask you this if
58:34there is a traumatic event and they
58:36block out that portion and then they're
58:39taken to the hospital and they go on
58:41that should end the Amnesia there that
58:44is the one portion they block out that
58:46very traumatic part is that right not
58:49necessarily I mean if they are dealing
58:51with the idea that their children have
58:53died or something other then the trauma
58:57can continue I mean I would expect the
58:59most traumatic situation to be immediate
59:01and but it is certainly traumatic to
59:04think that your children have just died
59:06so you may be psychologically
59:08disassociated to some extent because of
59:10that okay would you believe it would it
59:13be consistent then that if a person has
59:15blocked out the traumatic event and they
59:18are taken to the hospital and if they
59:20made rather well if they made rather in
59:23culpatory statements let's say to the
59:25nurse
59:26about what happened and were able to
59:29describe the attack without any
59:30suggestions to them and later on when
59:33you ask them about that they also had no
59:36memory of talking to those nurses would
59:38that be inconsistent with this type of
59:41situation well the fact that a person
59:43did recall some aspects of what happened
59:46would indicate that they have a memory
59:47of it and I mean that it wasn't forever
59:50erased from their memory that there is
59:52some memory of it that might be able to
59:55come out under certain
59:57circumstances that is the way I would
59:59answer that the you said a mother's bond
1:00:02with her child is extremely strong
1:00:04that's common sense is it not well most
1:00:07mothers bonds with their children are
1:00:09extremely strong I think almost anybody
1:00:11knows that okay and it's a well-known
1:00:14fact and Common Sense will tell you that
1:00:16a mother will fight to the death to try
1:00:19to save her children will they not some
1:00:22will some won't if she has a strong bond
1:00:25with her children they certainly will
1:00:27won't they a strong positive Bond and
1:00:30then given the personality of the mother
1:00:33you have some very timid people who will
1:00:35run from confrontation and so their
1:00:38timidity overwhelms their bond with
1:00:39their child for example but some will
1:00:42fight to the death let's say they are
1:00:44not a timid person yes okay and they
1:00:48have a strong positive bond with their
1:00:50child they will fight to the death will
1:00:52they not well they will fight hard and
1:00:55and if you were interviewing someone who
1:00:57was accused of murder and claiming to
1:00:59have traumatic Amnesia would it be
1:01:01important to look at maybe some of the
1:01:03physical evidence as maybe for instance
1:01:06a discrepancy between how the children
1:01:08were killed and the wounds they received
1:01:11and then the actual wounds that the
1:01:12mother
1:01:14received I'm not sure what you have
1:01:16asked me there okay if I could make for
1:01:19instance would it be important to you
1:01:21that if you have a situation where a
1:01:24mother has survived and her two children
1:01:26have been murdered she is the suspect
1:01:28and the medical doctors who treated her
1:01:30and it's their opinion that the wounds
1:01:32she received are
1:01:34superficial would it be important for
1:01:36what purpose in your assessment as to
1:01:40whether this person would be mingering
1:01:42or lying to you about if that were the
1:01:45question I was asked yes it would okay
1:01:48would that just one second and is it
1:01:51always important to gather most facts
1:01:53about a case when you are rendering an
1:01:54opinion from the most
1:01:57sources well you ought to have an
1:01:59adequate amount of data to answer the
1:02:01questions that you are asked okay Mr
1:02:04shook then says okay that's all I have
1:02:06then judge and the court says anything
1:02:09Mr Douglas says yes and the court says
1:02:11will this be lengthy I'm going to excuse
1:02:14the jury Mr Douglas says well it could
1:02:16be lengthy the court says all right
1:02:18thank you let's take a 10-minute break
1:02:20please so the jury takes a 10-minute
1:02:24break Mr John Hagler of the defense team
1:02:28says your honor at this time it is our
1:02:30understanding that both sides are going
1:02:32to rest and close we do at this point in
1:02:35time move for a judgment of acquittal or
1:02:38a motion for a directed verdict and we
1:02:40would re urge our previous motion and
1:02:43the court says all right motion denied
1:02:45thank you all right bring the jury back
1:02:47in please the court then says all right
1:02:49let the record reflect that all parties
1:02:51in the trial are present and the jury is
1:02:53seated Mr Moulder and Mr Moulder says
1:02:55yes your honor and Ladies and Gentlemen
1:02:57of the jury at this time the defense
1:02:59will rest Mr Davis says your honor the
1:03:01state will close Mr Moulder says we
1:03:04close and the court says all right
1:03:06ladies and gentlemen both sides have
1:03:09rested and closed and that's all the
1:03:11testimony you are going to be hearing in
1:03:12this case I have to get together a
1:03:14charge of the court and we will go over
1:03:16that now and then you are going to be
1:03:19recessed until tomorrow morning at
1:03:219:00 you will hear arguments and then
1:03:24you will retire and consider the case
1:03:26and reach a verdict so same instructions
1:03:29as always and then he goes on to give
1:03:30the instructions to the jury and then Mr
1:03:33mosty says your honor may we talk about
1:03:35one thing first and the court says yes
1:03:37sir and then a short discussion is held
1:03:39off of the record and the court says all
1:03:42right so we will see everybody down here
1:03:44tomorrow morning at 9:00 so now the jury
1:03:46is excused from the courtroom and the
1:03:49court says all right Mr Davis Moulder
1:03:52all you fellows Doug come over here Mr
1:03:55Davis says yes Sir Mr Moulder says yes
1:03:57sir and the court says okay the charge
1:03:59is Mr hegler says I want to look at it
1:04:02one more time I think we're in pretty
1:04:04good shape the court says who is going
1:04:06to argue we have an hour and a half to
1:04:08the side who is going to argue Mr
1:04:10Moulder says Richard is going to open I
1:04:13will close we will take 45 minutes aside
1:04:15the court says 45 minutes each well the
1:04:18state opens Mr Davis says yes sir Mr
1:04:21shook will open court says Mr shook Mr
1:04:25Greg Davis says well 10 minutes aside
1:04:27and then summarize and the court says
1:04:28all right you want 10 or 15 minutes Mr
1:04:31Toby shook says to open with the court
1:04:34says well just Mr shook then says well I
1:04:37don't know yet judge can I tell you in
1:04:38the morning and the court says that's
1:04:40fine so you are going first Mr mosy says
1:04:43yes the court says 45 minutes if you
1:04:45don't use it all up you get what's left
1:04:48of the 45 minutes Mr Moulder says yes
1:04:50sir and the court says you will close Mr
1:04:52Davis Mr Davis says yes sir I will and
1:04:55the court says all right thank you we
1:04:56will see everyone here in the morning
1:04:59all right so let's recap now this recap
1:05:02is going to be a short one mainly
1:05:04because the testimony that we've heard
1:05:06here is actually more educational than
1:05:09anything but there were a few things
1:05:12that stuck out uh when Mr Douglas of the
1:05:15defense asked the doctor if someone who
1:05:18had been in a traumatic event could
1:05:20experience more recall of that event
1:05:24when in contact with a child
1:05:26because of the strong bond that their
1:05:29memories might improve I immediately
1:05:32thought of Drake being brought into the
1:05:34hospital I really thought that this is
1:05:36where they were heading with this piece
1:05:39of information having Drake there may
1:05:42have helped her recall some memories but
1:05:44they never went there with this
1:05:46testimony the entire testimony
1:05:49essentially of Dr Coons was to talk
1:05:51about how the memory can be damaged
1:05:53based upon what a person has w witnessed
1:05:56the memory may come back it might not
1:05:59but this is why people who have
1:06:01experienced significant trauma have a
1:06:03hard time piecing things together now
1:06:06after the prosecution finishes up
1:06:08usually the defense will come back with
1:06:11questions of their own to counter what
1:06:14the prosecution in this case has asked
1:06:17but
1:06:18instead the jury takes a 10-minute break
1:06:21fine the defense then while the jury is
1:06:24gone tells the judge that they're going
1:06:27to arest their case no questions nothing
1:06:29to counteract anything that the
1:06:31prosecution has brought up
1:06:33nothing now Dr Coon's testimony while
1:06:36very
1:06:37informative doesn't really give us much
1:06:40more than an education because he never
1:06:43actually spoke with darly himself if he
1:06:45had done that it would have been very
1:06:47interesting to hear his take on the
1:06:50whole thing even if he had reviewed
1:06:52records from the hospital or information
1:06:54about the crime scene but he didn't and
1:06:57so all we get is really an
1:07:00education and that's it the testimony is
1:07:04all done in this case then next up we
1:07:07have the charge of the Court which will
1:07:09run about three episodes it's pretty
1:07:11long and then the closing statements of
1:07:14the prosecution and then the defense
1:07:17will follow the prosecution and the
1:07:19summation and the verdict before we move
1:07:23on to the punishment phase so that will
1:07:26do it for this episode thank you thank
1:07:28you all so much for listening please
1:07:30take a moment to subscribe to the
1:07:32channel no matter where you listen and
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1:07:41thanks again everyone we'll talk soon
1:07:43bye for now
1:07:46[Music]

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