YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Top Brain Scientist: Billionaire Brain, Anxiety & Addictions | Vidita Vaidya | FO518 Raj Shamani

Top Brain Scientist: Billionaire Brain, Anxiety & Addictions | Vidita Vaidya | FO518 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 33,046 words · 5,005 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00You've got an actual brain.
0:02>> Yes.
0:03>> That's what you imagine when you see a
0:06human brain. But this is a coat brain.
0:08>> Is my brain like this?
0:09>> Your brain is bigger than this. It's
0:11about 1 and 1/2 kilogram. If I gave you
0:13a rat brain. Okay. So now rat brain.
0:16>> That's a rat brain.
0:18>> What can this preserved brain tell you
0:20about a living brain which is inside?
0:22>> Okay. So you can cut this into sections.
0:26>> Yeah. Hold on. Oh, you just cut you just
0:28cut it.
0:33Vidita Veda, one of India's leading
0:35neuroscientists, has spent decades
0:37studying the most complex organ in the
0:39human body, the brain. If you've ever
0:41wondered why your mind works the way it
0:43does, then this conversation will
0:44completely change the way you understand
0:46yourself. If somebody is watching this
0:48and they want to find out that what kind
0:50of winner they can be,
0:52>> go for the most sustainable and the most
0:54sustainable is when you fall in love
0:56with doing something. that is the single
0:58most sustainable way of the long-term
1:01likelihood that you will achieve
1:03something. [music]
1:04>> Can you tell me like a framework or a
1:07question or an exercise so that we can
1:09find out which process will work for us?
1:11>> I would first say find out what you
1:13thoroughly have enjoyed doing. Two, you
1:15find out whether you're willing to do
1:17the work. That's the sustainability. And
1:20three, I think you have to ask that if
1:21you didn't get the outcome that you
1:23wanted, would the process have given you
1:25enough joy? That's the hardest question
1:27to answer, but that's the question
1:29that's worth answering. [music]
1:32>> Why are some people are so good with
1:34their memory and they remember
1:35everything versus some individuals are
1:37not?
1:37>> The brain is much more plastic and much
1:40more open to change in a younger nervous
1:43system. So your first 25 years of your
1:45life, [music] that's a window in which
1:47there's much more plasticity than in the
1:49second 25 and the last 25. It's down in
1:52after that first 25. So when I say
1:54plasticity it means the ability of your
1:56brain to change in response to
1:57environment to be able to adapt better
2:00to the world.
2:01>> The word which is now I'm going to say
2:04is very loosely used these days. It's
2:06called anxiety. So explain me simply
2:08like what is anxiety?
2:10>> Anxiety is when there is no obvious
2:12threat. You can't see a threat. Nobody
2:14else can see a threat. But your body is
2:16responding like there is an immediate
2:18threat. Which means [music] what? My
2:20palms will sweat. My mouth will dry. my
2:22heart rate goes up. It's literally as
2:25bad as a heart attack.
2:26>> If you open up, let's say, a
2:28billionaire's brain, Elon Musk, and you
2:31open up a brain of a 25year-old feeling
2:34stuck, will their brains be identical or
2:37different?
2:54experience.
2:58Enjoy the show.
3:00[music]
3:03>> So, you've got an actual brain.
3:05>> Yes. These are your gloves.
3:08>> Okay.
3:08>> And that's my set. And we'll wear them
3:12because we have to wear them because
3:14these brains have paraphformaldahhide in
3:16them. And so, for safety reasons, we
3:19have to have our gloves on. What do they
3:21have again?
3:22>> Paraphoraldahhide. That's what keeps the
3:24uh the brain tissue fixed.
3:26>> Okay.
3:27>> Okay. So, shall we take this this
3:29particular brain out and take a look?
3:31>> So, if I touch it from my bare hands,
3:32what will happen?
3:33>> Uh probably not a great idea because you
3:37might have a situation in which you
3:39might get some rash.
3:41>> Okay?
3:42>> Because there's paraponaldahhide in it.
3:44But I can give you some now in your hand
3:45now. I can give you the brain. This is a
3:47goat brain. And it does in many ways
3:50resemble our brain as you can clearly
3:53see it has a lot of these folds right
3:56because most of this tissue is folded
3:58now. So that's the guy and sulkai of the
4:01brain. That's what you imagine when you
4:03see a human brain. But this is a goat
4:06brain.
4:06>> But is it like is my brain like this?
4:09>> Your brain is bigger than this. It's
4:11about 1 and 1/2 kilog. This is clearly
4:13not 1 and 1/2 kilogram. This must be
4:15about 200.
4:15>> But does it feel the same?
4:17>> It feels the same. If it is fixed, the
4:20human brain would feel the same if it
4:22was fixed.
4:23>> Okay?
4:23>> And so if you were looking at a fixed
4:25human brain, it would be larger. It
4:27would be about this much.
4:29>> Mhm.
4:29>> And this is much smaller. But many of
4:31the structures are shared between the
4:33goat brain and our brain.
4:35>> Tell me one major difference between our
4:37brain and goat brain. And one
4:38similarity.
4:39>> Okay. One big difference is if it was a
4:41human brain, the cortex, which is this
4:43part, would be much bigger. you wouldn't
4:45be able to see the cerebellum because
4:47the cortex would have expanded and
4:49flowed over the cerebellum tucking the
4:51cerebellum underneath. So this would not
4:54be visible in a human brain as easily
4:56because this has become so large
4:58>> in evolution. This has grown so big that
5:01it has flowed over it on either sides
5:03and this has got tucked in.
5:05>> Okay.
5:05>> Okay. The other big thing is you
5:07remember we stand on two feet, right? So
5:09we pedal. So this imagine if this was a
5:12goat this is its head and it has four
5:14legs.
5:15>> This has also moved like this. So you
5:17would see the human brain this would be
5:19tucked underneath. This would be much
5:21bigger and flowing on either side. The
5:23spinal cord going down like this rather
5:25than the spinal cord coming out.
5:26>> Oh. So this is like
5:28>> this is the beginnings of the spinal
5:29cord. From here would come out the long
5:31spinal cord with nerves coming out on
5:33either sides that control the limbs the
5:36rest of the body. That's one obvious
5:38difference. Obviously the size is a big
5:41obvious difference
5:42>> but where does let's say do you the part
5:45which let's say in humans because we are
5:48more desirous.
5:49>> So where the desire and ambition and all
5:51of that plays out in the human brain
5:53versus an animal brain.
5:54>> So goats have the ambition of also
5:57finding effective grass to eat. Okay,
6:00>> we have that ambition and we don't
6:02consider it the kind of ambition that we
6:03think of. But if a goat doesn't have the
6:06motivation to find grass, to find food,
6:08to have drink enough water, it won't
6:10survive either. So the motivation
6:12circuits are actually fairly similar.
6:14The same things that make you want to go
6:16and eat are the same things that make
6:18you ambitious to want to land on the
6:20moon.
6:21>> It's the same underlying circuitry. It's
6:23just that it's doing very different
6:24things in humans from goats.
6:26>> Okay?
6:26>> But goats have motivation circuitry.
6:28Without motivation circuitry, the animal
6:30will not survive.
6:32>> And physically, where is it? If if you
6:33can point
6:34>> there's a structure called the
6:34vententral tegmental area, which will be
6:37right underneath this. So if you go
6:39underneath that, there's a structure
6:40there called the vententral tegmental
6:42area. And then there are nerves that go
6:44all the way underneath here is a region
6:46called the strriatum. If I opened it up,
6:48you would see it. At the base of the
6:50stratum is a structure called the
6:52nucleus acumbance. That's where
6:54motivation resides.
6:57Can I just turn it around?
6:58>> Yeah. Yeah, turn it around.
7:02>> So, this is where
7:04>> And in humans also it's similar.
7:06>> It's very similar. It's very similar.
7:08That's there whether you are a rat,
7:10you're a mouse, you're a squirrel,
7:11you're a goat, you're a human.
7:13>> We all have that baseline circuitry in
7:15our brain.
7:16>> It's the same circuitry that makes you
7:18feel thirst and motivated to go drink
7:20water, eat food, have sex. These are all
7:23the same underlying building blocks
7:25>> under the brain.
7:26>> It's inside. It's embedded underneath
7:29here.
7:30>> And what is protecting like what's the
7:31outside?
7:32>> So this stuff right here in coming out
7:34of here would be your pituitary.
7:36>> What does the magic
7:37>> which makes all the hormones of your
7:39body? the testosterone, the estrogen,
7:42the thyroid hormone, all of those
7:44hormones that go everywhere in the rest
7:46of the body and do the job of, you know,
7:48hormonal control and metabolism come out
7:51from a little stock which has now gotten
7:53chopped off. But here's the hypothalamus
7:55and the pituitary would emerge from
7:56here.
7:57>> You can also see it in the
7:59>> you would see the same thing if I gave
8:01you a rat brain. Okay?
8:03>> So now a rat brain
8:04>> that's a rat brain. Now what is obvious
8:07to you first and foremost is this is
8:09smooth
8:10>> and this is curly and wrinkled and that
8:12is absolutely smooth.
8:14>> And why is like that?
8:15>> That's because the cortex is relatively
8:18less in size and in the skull it fits
8:21>> without having to fold
8:22>> fold. Okay.
8:23>> Whereas in the good brain the cortex is
8:25already expanded and for it to fit it
8:28has to fold. So if you take out this
8:30cortex and flatten it right like if you
8:32flatten it out it would be a one rupee
8:34coin. M
8:35>> if you take this out and flatten it out,
8:37it'll be like a small puri.
8:38>> Okay.
8:39>> If you take out a monkey brain and you
8:41do the same thing and flatten it out,
8:42it'll be a large chapati. And if you
8:45take a human brain, human being brain
8:47and flatten it out, it'll be a pizza.
8:49>> It'll be that big.
8:50>> It's big. So now, but the skull hasn't
8:53commensurately expanded. We are not
8:55walking around with skulls that are this
8:56big, right? Like Megamind, we have small
8:59skulls. So now the stuff has to still
9:00fit. So to fit it has to fold and fold
9:03and fold. And that's why you have these
9:05folds which are called gy and sulkai.
9:07And here you don't need to fold a smooth
9:10brain. It's called a listen phallic
9:12brain which is a smooth brain.
9:14>> But here's a question. So these brains
9:16are preserved brains.
9:18>> Yes.
9:18>> Right.
9:18>> Yes.
9:19>> What's the difference between a live
9:22brain which is probably right now in my
9:23head or in some living animal
9:26>> versus a dead brain and versus a
9:28preserved brain?
9:28>> Yeah. So a a dead brain suppose we just
9:31took the brain out of the body then
9:33there would be a lot more blood that
9:35would be immediately visible. The brain
9:37receives a large amount of your blood
9:38supply supply. So you would see blood
9:40which you don't see here at all because
9:42the blood has been removed and cleared
9:44out. Okay. Also it's significantly
9:47softer because when the tissue dies the
9:50cells start dying and as they die they
9:52literally dissolve away. There are all
9:53these enzymes that are chewing up stuff.
9:55It will fall apart. If I give you a live
9:57brain in a few minutes, it'll start
9:59falling apart.
10:00>> Okay,
10:00>> here this is preserved because it's had
10:02formalin or you a lot of people would
10:04have seen this in school when you go
10:07into the laboratories and you see things
10:09in these long long long long jars and
10:11you see one snake or you see some body
10:13part. It's been preserved. It's been
10:15preserved by using formulin or
10:16formaldahhide which preserves the brain
10:18and now this will stay like this for
10:20actually years.
10:22>> Interesting. But does it change anything
10:24in while you're researching or doing
10:26anything?
10:26>> It does change things which we can't
10:29easily test in this. So for example, if
10:31I want to look at RNA or DNA or look at
10:33the genes that are being switched on, I
10:35can't do it in a preserved brain. I have
10:38to do it in a live brain.
10:39>> And does it shrink in size?
10:40>> It does shrink a little bit because this
10:42sort of formulins, you know, once you
10:44cross link proteins, things become
10:46tighter.
10:46>> And because they become tighter, things
10:48become more tightly connected. It does
10:50shrink it a little bit. So it is a
10:52little bit smaller but not a lot.
10:54>> And now that this is preserved with all
10:55these things, what can this preserved
10:59brain tell you about a living brain
11:01which is inside my mind?
11:02>> So you can cut this into sections.
11:05>> So let's put this fellow back right here
11:08and let's take that and let me show you
11:10its younger or rather other evolutionary
11:13relative. That's the mouse. So you get a
11:16sense of how the mouse play.
11:17>> Wait, mouse and rat are different.
11:19>> They're two different things. Cuz I know
11:20we all say chua and we think that the
11:22chua is just a cha.
11:23>> Is it a genuine thing or am I like
11:24really dumb? [laughter]
11:26>> You would not be the first person who's
11:28asked this question. So people are like
11:30rat and mouse. Isn't that just the same
11:32thing? You've seen a big rat, right? And
11:34you also seen these little but they're
11:35not baby rats. They're actually mice
11:37which is a totally different species.
11:39>> So that is a mouse brain and that is a
11:41rat brain. And so the mouse is
11:43significantly [laughter]
11:44smaller. It's like about 25 g an adult
11:46mouse and a rat, adult rat would be
11:49about 250 g.
11:51Significantly bigger. Right.
11:53>> The one you see on train stations and
11:54that's
11:55>> the one you see on train stations is
11:56this. The one that's probably wandering
11:58around in your in your house in the
12:00corner which is eating up the food is
12:02more likely to be a house mouse.
12:04>> Okay.
12:05>> Yeah. But that's you can see that it's
12:07very similar.
12:08>> Even though these animals have very
12:10different sizes, they have very similar
12:13lifestyles. They're also, you know,
12:14nocturnal. They like to spend, they come
12:16out at night.
12:17>> A lot of their there's a lot of biology
12:20that's very similar even though they are
12:22different species. And you can study a
12:23lot by studying these animals because
12:26the rules are common many times across
12:29this, this, and what's here.
12:31>> What are common rules?
12:32>> The neurons that do all the processing
12:34in the brain, they're similar here,
12:36here, and in our nervous system. The way
12:38they're connected and the way they
12:39areworked is different. But a lot of the
12:42basic building blocks are very similar.
12:43It's like with a Lego box, you can make
12:45a simple thing. You can make a
12:47complicated thing. You can also make
12:49something that's very very
12:50>> So the building blocks tend to be very
12:52very similar. But as the complexity goes
12:55up, you get different function which
12:57emerges from these networks.
12:59>> But you so you were telling me this that
13:01when you study these brains, what do you
13:03find out about human brains?
13:05>> Yeah. So let's take a look at the
13:07microscope and then you'll see what is
13:09actually inside
13:10>> the brain and you'll realize that the
13:12rules are really really quite so. So so
13:14let's say I want to see how neurons
13:16function. Okay, we can move this
13:18microscope to us. So let's take our
13:20gloves off.
13:20>> Oh, maybe we can just finish this. Is
13:21it's done? Oh, you were going to cut.
13:23>> I wanted to cut. So let me cut then
13:25maybe and show you that and then
13:27>> and then we can go to Okay. So I'm going
13:30to section
13:31>> actually cut it.
13:32>> Yeah. I'm going to take a brain here and
13:36put it into what is called a mold. Okay.
13:38So, this is a mold. So, I'm just slicing
13:40the brain. Now, I'm just going to put it
13:42in a mold like this. Fit it.
13:43>> Okay. So, this mold is for this mouse
13:45bra.
13:45>> This mold is for a rat brain. I have a
13:47mold mold for a mouse brain, which is
13:49right here, which is a smaller mold.
13:50Okay.
13:51>> Right. But we'll use the rat brain mold.
13:53And I'm going to cut right here.
14:00Okay. That's what
14:01>> how difficult it is or easy it is for
14:03you to cut.
14:04>> This is easy.
14:06>> When we want to cut really thin, you
14:08need machines.
14:09>> So we cut down to like fractions of a
14:13millimeter. And when we do that, then
14:14you need machines to cut at really thin
14:17levels, right? So right now here I'm
14:18just slicing it with this is like a
14:20regular razor blade, right? So that's
14:22all it is. So I'm just size slicing.
14:24I'll slice
14:33Yeah, this is proving to be tricky
14:36because his blade is not as strong as
14:38the other one.
14:38>> Okay.
14:39>> Okay, let me just cut with this instead.
14:49All right. Yeah, let's just put that.
14:53All right, let's take a look now.
14:55>> And what's this?
14:56>> All right. So now you asked me about the
14:58motivational circuitry in the brain
15:00right
15:01>> at the base of this sitting right here.
15:04>> I don't know if you can see it with
15:06this. We can try. But sitting at the
15:08base of this this structure right here
15:10is something called the nucleus
15:12encumbent. Doesn't matter what the name
15:14is. We all have this tendency to make
15:16very complicated names for everything in
15:18the brain. Unnecessarily complicated.
15:20[laughter] We could have made it a lot
15:21simpler. But you know there were so many
15:22different structures they got called
15:24many things. There's a little region
15:26right here at the base which is the
15:28region that has produces and receives a
15:30lot of dopamine.
15:32>> Okay.
15:32>> And that's the part of your brain that's
15:34involved with motivation. So it's right
15:36here at the base. And
15:38>> so show show me like just point it out.
15:40Where would it be?
15:41>> That I will have to cut this fellow. If
15:43we want to see it
15:45>> because on the bigger brain I'll be able
15:46to
15:47>> Yeah. Hold on.
15:47>> Oh, you just cut. Oh, you just cut it.
15:51>> Hold on.
15:53All right.
16:03It's I don't know how you're doing it.
16:05So
16:08yeah.
16:12>> So this here is this this the base of
16:16this is actually
16:17>> the basil ganglia. This whole region is
16:19the basil ganglia. This base region is
16:22the same region that I'm showing you
16:24here.
16:25>> These are all the fibers that are coming
16:27that are collecting information from all
16:29over the cortex. This region is the
16:31cortex.
16:31>> Okay?
16:32>> This white structure that is running
16:34down here. Can you see this white line?
16:36>> Yeah.
16:36>> That's called the internal capsule and
16:39it carries fibers from the brain all the
16:41way down to your spinal cord.
16:43>> So this single neuron that projects from
16:46here could sometimes in the case of a
16:47human being be 1 m long. It's one cell
16:50but its projections could be right from
16:52here all the way to your spinal cord. It
16:55controls your ability to sit, walk,
16:57move, etc. Right. So this this region is
17:00that area.
17:01>> You can actually see it here as well
17:04>> there.
17:04>> Right there at the base.
17:06>> This white thing.
17:07>> Yeah. And the white thing running
17:08through it is the internal capsule. This
17:10is the base.
17:10>> So this is responsible for motivation.
17:12>> Motivation. This receives innovation
17:14from the base of the brain which is this
17:17area which I can show. So what is
17:19different in people who are not
17:21motivated versus people who are?
17:23>> So pretty much everyone is motivated for
17:26at least baseline level rewards
17:28otherwise you won't survive.
17:29>> But does the brain like look different
17:31of high achievers versus
17:33>> drastically so not drastically so but
17:36possibly in the neurochemical
17:38transmission? Yes. Because in the detail
17:41of what gives you your dopamine hit
17:43possibly. I mean the dopamine hit that
17:45someone who's willing to go and do the
17:47work to climb to the top of Mount
17:48Everest will likely be very different
17:50from the dopamine hit of someone who's
17:52saying I'm a couch potato and I will eat
17:54the potato chips while watching someone
17:56climb Mount Everest. It's likely to be
17:58different but not in the it'll be in the
18:00minor detail not in the large scale. So
18:02in principle that couch potato is also
18:04capable of absolutely getting up doing
18:06the work and achieving that. So
18:08inherently the the building blocks are
18:10there in every individual.
18:12>> Got it. So it's mostly the
18:13neurotransmitters which actually makes
18:15difference.
18:15>> Neurotransmitters the strength of signal
18:17between one neuron and another. The
18:19receptors that respond to the
18:21neurotransmitters that level of detail
18:23changes based on what you do. So for
18:26example let's say someone actually
18:27trains to go to base scan. They are
18:29training and really training every
18:31single day. That training does something
18:33to your brain.
18:34>> True.
18:35>> Right. Is a difference between in
18:37principle seeing it and in practice
18:39doing it. Yeah. It's like saying I want
18:41to be a concert pianist but I will
18:43listen to a concert pianist. They're not
18:45enough to become [laughter] a concert
18:46pianist. Yeah,
18:47>> it's a good example. I'll come back to
18:49that. Okay. Because the pianist I have
18:51something nuance for it. But so you're
18:54selling that brain
18:55>> of a couch potato of somebody who's not
18:58an achiever is exactly same more or less
19:01is same like an high achiever
19:03>> and it's broad structure 101% and it's
19:05>> but is it like heavier because I heard
19:07that Einstein's brain weighs more than
19:10like a normal human being.
19:11>> So Einstein's brain is thought to have
19:13had more guy and sulkai. So more folds.
19:16Now in its detail no one sits and counts
19:18every neuron in the brain. Right? We
19:20know that we have some x number of
19:22neurons some close to like close to just
19:25about you know in the billion range
19:28neurons. But the thing is that you're
19:29not going to sit and count every neuron
19:31and see whether one individual's brain
19:33versus another differs in the numbers.
19:35Numbers can differ though because we
19:37know that even in rats and mice when you
19:39put them through life experiences
19:42especially animals that have a lot of
19:44not challenge but stimulating
19:46environments tend to end up with more
19:48neurons in their brain. So we do know
19:50that that stimulation and the quality of
19:53environment can change the number of
19:55neurons in the brain. So there is that
19:57possibility. So the theories and like
19:59what people say that because Einstein
20:01brain was heavier, it has nothing to do
20:04with his intelligence
20:06>> a little unlikely to have been just that
20:08that it's probably what he did with that
20:10brain and how he trained it and how he
20:12used it that made all the differences.
20:14Not to say that there aren't inherent
20:16differences in ability. There are always
20:18some inherent differences in ability,
20:19but a lot of it is what you do with
20:22those inherent differences and that is
20:23training. There's no question about it.
20:25You can train the brain to do a whole
20:27bunch of things that you didn't
20:28anticipate that you could do.
20:30>> And is bigger brain better?
20:32>> Not necessarily because I mean you can
20:34have a camel brain. It's pretty huge. So
20:36now I mean for a camel it works
20:38beautifully. But if you and I [laughter]
20:40so just bigger doesn't necessarily mean
20:43better, right? Like you can have a
20:44bigger brain. So a goat has a
20:45significantly bigger brain than a rat,
20:48but it can't do some of the things that
20:49a rat can do. And a rat cannot do some
20:51things that a goat can do. So these
20:53brains have been evolutionally adapted
20:55to be ideally suited for that particular
20:58species.
20:59>> Got it?
20:59>> For a rat, it has this huge alactory
21:02bul. Can you see that at the front?
21:04>> This structure,
21:05>> this is what is involved in its sense of
21:07smell.
21:09>> And now you know that rats are super
21:11smellers and mice are super smellers.
21:13They can smell stuff that you and I can
21:15never smell. We will not even be able to
21:16detect the odor.
21:18>> So will dogs have the similar thing?
21:19Will they have bigger?
21:20>> Absolutely. So their alfactory system is
21:22way more complicated than ours. So if I
21:25was to say that we'll give an award for
21:27the best smeller, hands down the rat
21:29will win over you and me. Right? So
21:32essentially depending on the function we
21:33are looking at species evolve to make
21:36the function most suitable for it. So
21:38dogs especially blood hounds etc that do
21:41a great job of smelling things they have
21:43complex alactory systems. Ours has
21:45become rudimentary [snorts]
21:47>> and that's because we went bipedal. So
21:49our dependence on smell is less. Our
21:52dependence on vision is a lot more.
21:55>> We use sight to do a lot of our
21:57discrimination of the universe.
21:59>> Interesting. And I I have a very good
22:02smell. That's what I would like
22:03[laughter] to think.
22:05>> Yeah. But hands down between you and a
22:07rat, a rat [laughter] hands down smell
22:09better than you.
22:10>> I am only comparing with my 10 humans.
22:14>> Sure. [gasps]
22:15>> No. Fair. Okay. So you and Okay. There's
22:18this one word which I've heard a lot.
22:21>> Mhm.
22:21>> Okay. Which is called gray matter.
22:22>> Yeah.
22:23>> What is gray matter in this?
22:24>> Okay. This was great that you just asked
22:26me that is exactly this is gray matter
22:29and this is white matter.
22:31>> What do they do?
22:31>> First of all, it's obvious that they
22:33look different in gray and white. I mean
22:35it's kind of pinkish [clears throat]
22:36because it has a little bit of fixed
22:38blood left in it. But this is gray
22:39matter and this is white. Gray matter is
22:41where your cells are.
22:43>> Your neurons, your ga, all the different
22:45kinds of cells that are there in the
22:46brain. White matter is all the fibers
22:49coming out of them and going long
22:51distances. So for example, if there are
22:53neurons here and there are neurons here,
22:55you're collecting all of their fibers
22:58forming this big bundle and then this
23:00big bundle is going and that's the white
23:02matter. Most dramatically you see it in
23:04the spinal cord which looks almost all
23:07white
23:08>> because it has collected all these
23:10fibers from the brain and it's now going
23:12to carry all that signal down to your
23:14spinal cord. That's what's going to
23:15allow you to move your hands. That's
23:17going to allow you to dance. It's going
23:19to allow you to, you know, play
23:20football. All of that is information
23:23coming from your brain through those
23:24white matter white matter tracts all the
23:27way to your spinal cord and then going
23:29out through nerves to your peripheral.
23:31>> So this white thing, white matter,
23:33>> Yeah.
23:33>> is my let's say signal carrier.
23:36>> It's your signal carrier.
23:37>> Okay.
23:37>> Exactly.
23:38>> And what is my gray matter?
23:39>> Your gray matter is the the thing that
23:41produces the signal. It's the cell that
23:42makes the signal. that signal has to it
23:45is useless if it stays in the brain and
23:47doesn't go anywhere.
23:48>> So when they say that because we you
23:52know we addicted to a screens and we
23:54keep watching endlessly. So there's a
23:57fog in the brain and that affects gray
24:00matter.
24:01>> So what do they mean by that? Like does
24:02it do you can you see like the white
24:04kind of thing or any fog around it when
24:06you have
24:07>> No, you can't you can't see anything
24:09changing just from chronic screen use.
24:11>> Okay. So what is brain fog? Where does
24:13it like does it change anything? Does it
24:14look like
24:14>> No, it doesn't. Brain fog essentially is
24:17referring to your inability to have
24:19clear thought,
24:21clear categorical thought where you are
24:23just, you know, all kinds of random
24:25thoughts are just emerging at random and
24:28that, you know, you're not really able
24:29to clearly articulate whatever it is
24:32that you're thinking about.
24:33>> So that's brain fog. Brain fog can also
24:36happen when you come out of anesthesia.
24:37M
24:38>> so you know when you're coming out of
24:38anesthesia it's taking a while for you
24:41to first of all be aware that you're
24:42awake then you you're mumbling something
24:45in the morning when you wake up and you
24:47haven't had a good night's sleep for a
24:49little while it's almost as though the
24:50system isn't kicking you know you know
24:52the old TVs used to have this flicker
24:54like pattern on the it's almost like
24:56your brain is coming back on fully so
24:59it's that it's and if you're
25:00continuously mindlessly consuming stuff
25:04>> and now you expect your brain to produce
25:06the most coherent thought it's not going
25:08to do that until you kick in and have
25:10your full attention on board. So in a
25:12sense it's that it's like that flicker
25:14that happens when things are not yet
25:16fully on.
25:18>> Got it. So it doesn't affect the gray
25:19matter.
25:20>> No, it doesn't.
25:20>> But then if you let's say because
25:23>> I mean it doesn't and maybe I should
25:25should say one more thing like when we
25:27say in rats and mice that an enriched
25:30environment makes for more neurons in
25:32the brain. Watching mindless television
25:35is not an enriched environment
25:36[laughter] by any stretch of
25:38imagination, right? So what you do
25:39consume has an impact on your brain for
25:42sure. So if you're reading something
25:43interesting or even if you're in a
25:45social conversation with someone who's
25:47enriching your mind, 101% that has a
25:50different effect on your brain than when
25:52you mindlessly consume stuff scrolling
25:55without really spending time to,
25:57[clears throat] you know, absorb the
25:59content of what you're looking at.
26:00>> True. True. So you said white matter is
26:04a signal carrier. Gray matter is the
26:07place where signal gets correct. Right.
26:09So if if somebody drinks alcohol does
26:11that affect gray matter?
26:12>> It actually affects the whole signal
26:14transmission and also affects gray
26:16matter and affects white matter.
26:17>> So what happens? Let's say this is
26:18brain. Okay.
26:20>> And in that you put a drop of
26:22>> so alcohol.
26:24>> Yeah. So let's say there's chronic
26:25alcohol consumption. One of the things
26:27that alcohol does is it inhibits
26:29neurons. So people think of of it as oh
26:31I'm having the high from alcohol but
26:33actually alcohol is a CNS depressant it
26:36reduces the firing of neurons which is
26:39why over time one of the things that you
26:41do is you notice that people find it
26:42hard to walk a straight line we find it
26:45hard to have a clear speech that
26:47articulation of clear speech goes right
26:49then once it gets worse you start seeing
26:52motor abnormalities you're not able to
26:54like balance yourself that's because the
26:56neurons are actually shutting off
26:58>> and because one by on they start
27:00shutting off in different parts of the
27:01brain. Most times people fall asleep
27:04before they have reached a really severe
27:06state
27:07>> but it is chronic exposure to alcohol is
27:10damaging to the nervous system. There's
27:12no question about it. I mean the science
27:14on this is very very clear right that
27:16you do kill neurons when you expose them
27:18to alcohol.
27:19>> So now so if this is our brain okay
27:22>> Mhm.
27:24>> on this when the alcohol goes what
27:26happen? Does does it change something?
27:28Does the white thing get something like
27:29or nothing changes?
27:31>> So is so the alcohol would enter the
27:33nervous system through your bloodstream,
27:35right? Normally you're not going to have
27:37direct alcohol exposure. It's going to
27:38go through the bloodstream and then get
27:40to the brain. Once it gets to the brain,
27:42you get it. It goes to
27:44>> all over the nervous system. A blood
27:45supply goes everywhere in the brain. So
27:47there's not a part of your brain that is
27:48not going to see alcohol. A lot of how
27:51much alcohol will get then depends on
27:53how well your liver metabolizes the
27:54alcohol. So there are people who get
27:56drunk very quickly and there are people
27:58who will have a larger amount of alcohol
28:00and not see the effects. It depends on
28:02the enzymes in their liver and how much
28:04alcohol you clear in your liver before
28:06it enters your bloodstream in full
28:08content. Right? So individuals will have
28:11different levels of alcohol that their
28:13brain sees as a consequence. For
28:14example, the Japanese do very badly at
28:16metabolizing alcohol. So they tend to
28:18have a higher blood alcohol level when
28:20they have the same amount of alcohol
28:22exposure. So when you have that kind of
28:24alcohol exposure once a neuron sees
28:26alcohol the GABA there's a
28:28neurotransmitter channel called a GABA
28:31channel that gets affected and that
28:33actually starts showing increased signal
28:36>> neurons start reducing their firing as
28:39in so let's say I had a signal that I
28:40needed to convey from here to my hand
28:42>> this hand wants to touch this right so
28:45I'm I have a neuron that's carrying the
28:46signal to my spinal cord and now I want
28:48to move this I want to do the same
28:50action but there is alcohol in the
28:52nervous nervous system I will struggle
28:54first of all I might get somewhere there
28:56but I may not be able to precisely touch
28:58and then over time my ability to even
29:00move effectively is going to get
29:02hampered because the signal itself will
29:04decay since the signal producing neuron
29:07is not working as well
29:08>> interesting but does any of my brain
29:11part swell get strong get bigger get
29:14smaller
29:14>> smaller
29:15>> which one
29:16>> your hippocampus will shrink your
29:18prefrontal cortex over time will shrink
29:20>> what what like show me where So in this
29:22part of the brain right here is your
29:24prefrontal cortex. So if I turn this
29:26over, I think I should be able to show
29:28you the prefrontal cortex on the other
29:29side. Let's see.
29:33>> No. Okay. Here I can see the hippocampus
29:35in this section.
29:36>> Right here is a structure called the
29:38hippocampus.
29:39>> That structure has been beautifully
29:41named after a seahorse, but let's forget
29:43why it was called that. But the
29:45hippocampus is involved in learning.
29:47It's involved in memory formation. It's
29:49responsible for all the memories you
29:52build which are explicit memories where
29:54you grew up, where you live, things that
29:56have happened in your life. All these
29:57events get recorded in your hypoc campus
29:59and then passed on to your cortex. Those
30:02neurons are very vulnerable. They tend
30:04to die more easily and they are
30:07definitely impacted by alcohol and you
30:08get shrinkage. First of the way the
30:10neuron looks it shrinks. Then neurons
30:13die. After they shrink, they die. So you
30:15lose neurons and so eventually if there
30:17is chronic and large scale usage
30:20>> then over time you do tend to kill those
30:22neurons.
30:23>> So that hippocampus which is responsible
30:25for your memory largely
30:27>> yes
30:28>> shrinken shrinken shrinkens and you
30:30start forgetting that's what alcohol
30:31does
30:32>> strong alcohol use and alcohol use
30:35disorder will definitely take you down
30:37that way. Yeah.
30:37>> So another question little slightly
30:40unrelated but I'll come back because you
30:41spoke about hippocampus. Do women have
30:44bigger hippoc campus than men?
30:45>> They [laughter] have. No, actually they
30:47don't have
30:47>> Why do they remember things better? Like
30:49there there's a whole
30:50>> Interesting that you're saying this.
30:51Well, I mean, are there obvious and
30:54overt sex differences between the male
30:56and female brain? Not in the large
30:58scale, but in the detail in specific
31:00parts of the brain, there are
31:01differences. The hypothalamus has clear
31:03differences between the male and female
31:05brain. Um, but it's like a distribution
31:08and the distributions tend to overlap.
31:10So if you have a male distribution and
31:11you have a female distrib there will be
31:13people who are who look identical to
31:14each other. You can't say this is very
31:15different but there are individuals if
31:17you look at the means there are some
31:18differences. I think what happens is the
31:21way women are socialized we are
31:23socialized to remember details. We're
31:26socialized to remember birthdays. We're
31:29socialized to remember events because we
31:31become the memory keepers of our
31:33families.
31:34>> So if you just look at the home who's
31:36the memory keeper? It's usually the mom.
31:38>> Yeah. She's the one who's remembering
31:40everyone's birthday. She's the one who's
31:42remembering special dates. She's the one
31:43who's doing everything to make that day
31:45special. I don't think that's biological
31:47as much as that it is social. It has
31:49been strongly socially conditioned. And
31:52I think if you took a bunch of men and
31:54made it incentivized for them to also
31:56remember all they would remember it
31:58because they remember, you know, they
31:59remember something about their work
32:02situation,
32:02>> stock market numbers and stuff like
32:04that.
32:04>> It's not like you inherently. It's just
32:06that what you are remembering tends to
32:08be different because of what has been
32:09put as an emphasis socially but
32:12eventually the nervous system is
32:14remembering remembering stuff.
32:15>> So it's not the biology it's psychology
32:17mostly.
32:18>> It's a combination of biology overlaid
32:20by social.
32:22>> Got it. Interesting. Okay. So you were
32:25showing something.
32:25>> I want to show you what you want.
32:27>> Yeah. So that in this you can really see
32:30the white matter and the gray matter
32:33>> really distinct. There's the white
32:34matter. So now it's obvious
32:39as simple saw it, you know, microscope
32:42in their hand and they're like, "Okay,
32:44let's call this gray and let's call this
32:45white." [laughter] It's as simple.
32:46>> But why not pink matter? Why?
32:48>> So if I leave this brain for long enough
32:51and if all the blood is fully cleared
32:53from it, it starts looking a bit gray.
32:55So here on this one, it might look a
32:58little bit more than than that. Let's
33:00take this one. And in this also, you'll
33:02be able to see the white matter and the
33:03gray matter. You should be able to see
33:04the
33:05>> white and the gray. I can
33:06>> Yeah. So that's that's what it was. It
33:09was just fixed and you saw it as white
33:10and gray and that's why it's called
33:12white matter.
33:13>> The blood like starts drying up.
33:15>> Yeah. The blood is taken out because if
33:16the blood is there you can't see very
33:18clearly and study it very well. So you
33:20clear out the blood which is what you do
33:22to fix the brain and then you take a
33:24look at it.
33:24>> Yeah. [laughter]
33:25>> Okay. And the way I'm again going back
33:27to because I'm just curious to know more
33:29uh what alcohol does to like what you
33:33explained me about the alcohol right
33:35does sugar have similar impact
33:37>> so sugar [gasps]
33:38is an addictive substance like alcohol
33:41so it hits the same motivational pathway
33:44the nucleus cumbence or VTA to nucleus
33:46cumbance pathway that's the dopamine
33:48producing pathway in your brain same
33:50circuit also gets hit by sugar so it's
33:53not your addiction to sugar is also
33:55happening happening through the same
33:56circuit that your alcohol addiction,
33:58nicotine addiction, same circuits,
34:00gambling addiction, same circuit.
34:02>> Now the circuit is vital because without
34:05that circuit you will not survive.
34:06Without that circuit you not remember
34:08that you're thirsty and you need to
34:09drink, that you're hungry and you need
34:11to eat. So that circuit is absolutely
34:13vital for survival. But it's also a
34:15circuit that is very prone to getting
34:17hijacked.
34:18So it gets hijacked. It gets hijacked by
34:20alcohol. It gets hijacked by drugs of
34:22abuse. It gets hijacked by sugar. It
34:25gets hijacked by gambling. And it can
34:27get hijacked by addictive conditions.
34:30>> Interesting. And then they all first
34:32affect hippocampus and then the ability
34:35to actually perform
34:36>> multiple parts of the brain including
34:38the hippocampus, prefrontal cortex,
34:40acumbance, multiple circuits to
34:42different degrees.
34:43>> The first thing they do is shrinken.
34:45>> They shrink very often the dendrites.
34:47Sometimes they cause a overgrowth of the
34:50branches in areas where you don't want
34:52an overgrowth.
34:53>> Give me an example.
34:54>> So for example, one of the things that
34:56they do is actually they cause an
34:57overgrowth in the area of the brain that
35:00is called the nucleus circumbent where
35:02you now are hyper prone to responding to
35:04the same addictive substance which
35:06>> it gets bigger.
35:07>> Yeah. So the it's not just always that
35:10it's causing a a breakdown of the
35:12structure. Sometimes it's causing it to
35:14expand and become hyper sensitive.
35:16hyperensitive it becomes hyper sensitive
35:18to the drug. So the same it can become
35:21hyperensitive it can also become
35:22tolerant such that the same dose of the
35:25drug doesn't give you the same response
35:26and so now you need to take twice as
35:28much to get the same effect
35:30>> which happens most of the time. Okay. So
35:32we we clear this and we'll get the mic.
35:34>> Let's get the microscope. Yeah. So you
35:35know the question you asked me which is
35:37look it's a rat brain it's a mouse brain
35:39it's a goat brain it's a human brain.
35:40How can you study a human brain when
35:42you're using a rat or a mouse or a goat?
35:44Because the building blocks like I said
35:46are the same. Like if you build a Lego,
35:47you can build a small little house with
35:49a Lego. You can build a huge plane with
35:51a Lego. So in here is the building
35:53blocks that I want to show you. So in
35:55here is actually a section through the
35:57rat brain
35:58>> in which we have stained the neurons. So
36:00you can actually see the individual
36:02neurons. So I have zoomed in for you. So
36:05if you take a look through this, bring
36:07your eyes there. You should be able to
36:08see these cells. Keep both eyes open and
36:11just relax and look.
36:13Okay.
36:14>> Can you see these blacklike dots with
36:16these large trees? Almost looks like a
36:18forest of trees, right?
36:21>> Just branches.
36:22>> Branches.
36:23>> That's actually a neuron. Those are
36:25neurons in the rat cortex.
36:27>> Okay.
36:28>> Our neurons are remarkably similar.
36:31>> They're bigger. Okay. So, if you say
36:34this is like a 100 micron, which is like
36:37a for a millimeter, it's significantly
36:40smaller. Okay. So like if you have 100
36:43micron neuron these these cells will be
36:45a little bit bigger our neurons but
36:47they're not drastically different and it
36:49doesn't matter if it's a goat brain
36:51human brain
36:51>> just the dots will be bigger.
36:53>> Yeah the trees actually might be a
36:55little larger as well but in its there's
36:58a there's a real common architecture to
37:01these neurons. It's they look very
37:03similar. Okay. So if you want to study
37:05how a neuron works or how a neuron
37:07functions you can't study it easily in
37:09the human brain. So we study it in
37:11animals where we have the chance to
37:13study it well and you can study it in a
37:15rat and mouse brain with great detail
37:17and great understanding. But when you
37:21when you study the effect of something
37:23let's say some medicine some drug some
37:26psychedelic some inducing chemicals
37:30>> a rat's brain does it show similar kind
37:34of
37:35>> yes like things that as a human brain
37:37>> it does because
37:38>> so let's say if you put like a depressed
37:40human brain and a depressed rat brain
37:42>> correct
37:42>> and then you put one medicine which is
37:44making both of them happy
37:45>> correct
37:46>> they give you the same similar
37:47>> they give you similar responses I will
37:49not say same because the complexity of
37:51this brain, the human brain is
37:52definitely more than the complexity of
37:54the rat brain.
37:55>> Interesting. So and and would you say
37:57that rat's brain is the closest thing?
38:00>> The closest thing to us is the non-human
38:02primates. So the gorillas and the chimps
38:04and the monkeys are the closest because
38:06they are our cousins.
38:08>> They are [clears throat]
38:09first cousins. Okay? In the family of
38:11life, they are our first cousins. And
38:13it's very obvious. If you look at a
38:14bunch of monkeys, you'll begin to
38:16realize that actually in principle this
38:18could be humans as well. You know,
38:20there's like relationships. You remember
38:22who's whose ar then they remove the, you
38:24know, they remove the the lice. That's
38:26the way they have. So, we also have our
38:27ways of grooming each other. A lot of
38:29like when you see a family together,
38:31people will line up and do chumpy to
38:33each other. It's because it's a way of
38:34indicating care.
38:36>> It's our language of care. And you see
38:38very similar things in non-human
38:40primates as well. So they are the
38:41closest to us but they are much more
38:43complex species and they're not the
38:45ideal species in which to do research.
38:47First of all
38:48>> they feel a lot. They're like us with a
38:51much broader emotional spectrum and so
38:53they come with the challenges that when
38:55you when to go inside the brain and look
38:57it's not ethically viable to do these
39:00experiments in non-human primates as
39:02easily. That's not to say that nobody
39:03has. People do some critical work is
39:06done in non-human primates, but they're
39:08not the species of choice to study.
39:12>> But why? If monkey is the closest to
39:14human,
39:16>> right? Why are we
39:17>> because they also they're also the
39:19closest to human and we identify deeply
39:21with them. It's the same way as what
39:23when we look at the hierarchies of
39:25species. Species that exhibit large
39:27amount of care and a large amount of
39:30nurture are the species that better now
39:32if we do it
39:33>> I understand but then we probably do it
39:35via imaging where we don't have to take
39:36the life of the animal we will not do
39:38something that takes the life of the
39:40animal right so this is where this is
39:42where the boundaries of what one
39:44ethically can do a lot of this can also
39:46be studied in the human brain you can
39:47image the human brain you can image the
39:50monkey brain but you will not take the
39:52life when you go in because you're using
39:54that animal to study but you have an
39:57ethical framework in which you are using
39:59those animals
39:59>> but here's my little complicated
40:01question more philosophical rather right
40:06>> who set this boundary that taking a life
40:08of a rat is ethical versus
40:09>> I completely agree
40:10>> taking a life of monkey is not ethical
40:12so if it's animal it's it has to be
40:14animal
40:14>> we tend to apply this based on sensience
40:18and understanding of consciousness we
40:20know that we are conscious right we now
40:23are attributing an understanding of
40:25consciousness to other species species
40:27that are closer to us in the complexity
40:30of their brains whales
40:31Dolphins, monkeys, gyms, gorillas, their
40:36complexity of their nervous system is
40:38much closer to us. And so we attribute
40:41[clears throat] to them greater
40:43understanding of complex emotions and
40:45consciousness like states which we do
40:48not attribute so much to a rat. Now that
40:50may be a little bit of an unfair
40:52categorization because rats also show
40:55empathy. They can also show altruistic
40:57behavior and they do feel. It's not like
40:59they don't feel, right? So there is this
41:01awareness that we have. However,
41:03somewhere in the history of time. We
41:05could have also said let's just study
41:07flies which also have complex nervous
41:09systems. They fly etc. They have a much
41:11shorter lifespan and people do a lot of
41:13things. We do we study in worm. We study
41:15and fly but we can't study the mamalian
41:18brain in worm and fly. And the mamalian
41:21brain is much more closer to us because
41:23we are mammals. So to it was a via
41:26media. Is it the best solution? No. But
41:28it is a via media solution that the
41:30community has come up with. At the same
41:32time saying that there will still be
41:34strict ethical oversight over all
41:36experiments. All experiments have like
41:38ethical clearances that have they have
41:40to go through. But it's a very fair
41:42question and it's one which is difficult
41:43to deal with and a difficult one to
41:45answer because in a sense you're saying
41:48we are putting human life as a higher
41:50value than the life of the animal that
41:52we are taking to be able to study.
41:54Right? So there is there is that sort of
41:56a thing that we So let's say we have put
41:57in human as because every species is
42:01selfish and they think their species is
42:03the top level specy, right? You could
42:05see that in multiple other species and
42:06animals as well. Correct.
42:07>> They would even their totally unrelated
42:09animals, they'll save their other
42:11animals similarly and attack humans,
42:12right? Absolutely.
42:13>> So let's say we put humans at the top
42:15because we are humans. We're biased. But
42:17how do we decide hierarchy of what are
42:19the animals who are going to be
42:22>> worth taking life versus not taking
42:23>> probably in terms of the complexity of
42:26their nervous system and the tendency of
42:29those species to do a great deal of
42:31nurture and care. Right? So when you
42:34look at monkeys and non-human primates,
42:36there's a lot of community social
42:38architecture where they exhibit a lot.
42:41They also mourn very visibly mourn.
42:44Elephants very visibly moan. That is not
42:47to say that a rodent doesn't feel that
42:50kind of pain and suffering, but it's not
42:52as visible perhaps.
42:53>> But do they do they feel?
42:55>> They definitely feel they definitely
42:57feel
42:58>> like if a rat
42:59>> watches another animal go through pain,
43:01it feels it. There's something called
43:03witness element and there's witness
43:05stress and that is experienced even by
43:07rodents. So two unrelated rats,
43:10>> you put both of them in a lab and one
43:12rat sees another rat going through
43:14extreme pain and torture. This rat will
43:16feel
43:16>> it will feel it.
43:18>> Interesting. Very just I don't know
43:21which angle we've taken the podcast but
43:22I find it very interesting. And
43:24>> so goat brain you said you study goat
43:26brain because it's the closest
43:29>> I mean you can study
43:29>> in terms of shape and size.
43:31>> We study the rat and the mouse most in
43:33my labor.
43:33>> Absolutely. No. So you got today rat,
43:35mouse and goat. Why goat? Good. Because
43:38it'll look most to someone who has never
43:41seen a brain like something that they
43:43imagine the human brain to look like.
43:46>> Right? So if I have to say here Raj,
43:48here's a brain. I'm showing you a brain
43:50and can you see this and immediately
43:51think of something you remember from
43:53when you were in school, then the goat
43:54brain immediately evokes that memory.
43:57But if I show you a rat and mouse brain,
43:58you'll say that's interesting, but it
44:00doesn't look like anything. That's why I
44:01got the goat brain also so that you may
44:03see that
44:05>> the building blocks are similar. It
44:07doesn't matter which species you're
44:09studying. The building blocks are very
44:10very similar and by studying the
44:12building blocks you can understand much
44:14about what is happening in our brain.
44:16>> Okay. You were showing me this. What
44:18what is this?
44:18>> So now I showed you so I showed you what
44:20the cortex looks like. Okay. And with a
44:23very old kind of technique called Golgi
44:25staining. And what I'm going to do now
44:27is show you what I think I should have
44:29in this the the Wow, you did a good job.
44:33You did that automatically almost.
44:35[laughter]
44:35>> Okay. Let me just see if I can zoom and
44:37show you. Yeah.
44:38>> So, you know, we were talking about gray
44:40matter and white white matter, right?
44:42So, gray matter I told you is the place
44:43where all the cells are. So, now if I
44:45want to see the cells, is there a way I
44:47can stain the cells? So, in this there's
44:49a Nissle stain which allows you to stain
44:52the cell body.
44:53>> What is nissell stain?
44:54>> It's just a stain that binds to RNA
44:56granules inside cells.
44:58>> I still didn't get it. Explain it
45:00simply. It's it's a chemical that will
45:02go and bind to a certain kind of a
45:04molecule within your cell and because of
45:06that it'll stain all these cells and so
45:08they end up staining a nice blue.
45:10>> Okay.
45:10>> So you can see them they'll be dark blue
45:12and they look circular because these
45:13cells are largely either circular
45:15parameal or oval or elliptical. So
45:17>> so this is how you find out cells.
45:20>> Yeah. This is in the hypo campus.
45:21>> You study these.
45:24>> So So there is like one purple thingy I
45:27do I see and then there's a blue thing.
45:29The blue thingy is what you're looking
45:30at. Those blue cells, can you see them
45:32all like next to each other? They look
45:34like grapes almost next to each other.
45:38They're all next to each other. And
45:40that's the hypoc campus.
45:41>> This is this sort
45:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like blue blue dots
45:44next.
45:44>> Yeah. But then I see like this one sort
45:46of like one thing coming out as well.
45:48>> Yeah. That that's an air bubble that has
45:50happened. [laughter] That is not a good
45:52slice. It's a bubble. So ignore the
45:54ignore.
45:54>> Okay. I'm just supposed to see the blue
45:56thing which is
45:57>> which almost looks like freckles.
45:59>> Yeah, it looks like freckles. It's
46:00exactly that. But [clears throat] those
46:01are the cells in the hippocampus. That's
46:04your memory making structure in the
46:06brain.
46:06>> So these like these thousands or maybe
46:08millions of
46:08>> So in a rat is memory
46:11>> memory. That's where your memories made.
46:15>> So you need the hypocampus to make new
46:17memories.
46:18>> So do like each one of them actually
46:20form a memory in my head.
46:21>> So that's a interesting question. And
46:23there's a hypothesis called the
46:24formation of engrams. Okay? And I'll
46:27tell you what this engram formation is.
46:28It's a an idea that's not that new but
46:30it's been something people have been
46:32working on very closely in the last 10
46:34years. So let's say I come to this room
46:36right now. I have this this room in
46:38which I see Raj Shamani opposite me. I
46:40see it says figuring out. I have this
46:41bottle of water. I'm creating a memory
46:44of this moment of this time of this
46:47individual. And I will now walk away
46:49from here. The next time I come back
46:50here, if that memory has been strongly
46:53made, it will activate certain cells in
46:57my brain that have encoded this memory.
46:59Right? So, let's say I have cells A, B,
47:01C, D, E, F, G in that part of the brain
47:03that encode this memory. Then I go away.
47:05I'm not coming back here immediately.
47:07One week later, you happen to say, why
47:09don't you come over to the studio? And I
47:11come over and then those same cells get
47:13reactivated because that memory has
47:15stopped. So, that's a that's called an
47:17engram. the physical map of the where
47:20the memory is stored in my brain.
47:22[clears throat]
47:23>> Now let's imagine I go to somebody
47:25else's studio. Now that studio happens
47:27to have the exact same table, the exact
47:30same whatever maybe doesn't have Raja
47:33has something but very similar.
47:34>> Similar okay same color very similar and
47:37I get a partial activation of the engram
47:39and then I think oh maybe I've been here
47:40before which is actually not true. I
47:43haven't been there. But because it over
47:45overlapped so much with something that I
47:47already had a memory of, I get this
47:49weird feeling of deja vu where I'm like,
47:52I think I've been here before, but I
47:53actually haven't. It's just that my
47:55brain thinks I've been here because
47:57there's this reactivation of this
48:00engram. So this partial activation of
48:02the engram is enough to bring back the
48:04whole thing.
48:04>> So our brain is something it's it's a
48:07pattern completer. It wants to take
48:09partial information and finish the
48:10information. M
48:11>> so it takes a little bit of information
48:12says ah I think I've seen this and now
48:15let me finish the whole story in my head
48:16it's like how we don't have the patience
48:18to hear the whole story you start
48:19telling me a story and I'm like but I
48:21know where you're going with this don't
48:22finish the story I understood what
48:23you're saying right so that tendency of
48:26our brain is to take shortcuts where a
48:29shortcut making we want to finish
48:31quickly quickly like let's get this done
48:34and let me get all the information out
48:36partially and complete the whole picture
48:38because I think
48:39>> motor moti I exactly I will get it
48:43mostly right and 95% of the time you'll
48:46get away with it also because you may
48:47get it broadly but sometimes in the
48:50detail you will get it wrong
48:52>> and when you get it wrong in the detail
48:54the only way to correct that is by
48:55slowing it down
48:57>> you have to slow it down to take the
48:59time to learn it so for example let's
49:02say you take an exam let's say you have
49:03an exam to do tomorrow and you decide
49:05you're going to mug everything that is
49:07there today
49:08>> and [clears throat] broadly you may get
49:10some part of it correct the next day. 2
49:12weeks later I ask you to remember
49:14anything. You have forgotten everything
49:16because it was shortterm short-term
49:18memory and you have not really learned
49:20it. You have just memorized it enough to
49:23produce something the next day and vomit
49:24it out and then your brain says now I'm
49:26not wasting any space on all this
49:28because you have not taken the time to
49:30properly learn it. M
49:33>> so what you remember as short-term
49:36quickly done shortcut associated doesn't
49:39last
49:40>> the brain is not wasting too much so
49:42even when you go back into school
49:45>> the few subjects that you really love
49:47and you really learned you learned well
49:49you'll feel comfortable with a lot of
49:51other stuff you've just memorized
49:53>> I have no idea
49:54>> forgotten you've just vomited it out and
49:57it's now blank like if somebody asks you
49:59say I did I ever really study that I
50:01don't remember studying But do they get
50:02stored in these these blue dots?
50:04>> They do get stored in the strength of
50:07the connections between these two dots.
50:08So those right now you're seeing only
50:10the blue dots.
50:11>> You're not seeing the nerve connections
50:13between the dots. For that you need a
50:15different kind of stain. The stain I
50:16showed you before showed all these
50:17fibers coming out. Right? So those are
50:19the axons and the dendrites. That's
50:21where all the connections are made
50:23between these cells. Now if I take my
50:25skin cells, they don't have these kinds
50:26of branches. They're just cells stuck
50:28next to each other. They're epithelial
50:30cells. But cells in the brain produce
50:32their functions by talking to each
50:34other. It's all communication. It's a
50:37signal that I send to you and you
50:38receive the signal. I send the signal
50:40through my axon if I was a cell. And if
50:42you were a neuron also, you were
50:44receiving it through your dendrites. So
50:46this is how we are communicating. It is
50:48in the communication that the memory is
50:50eventually strengthened and maintained.
50:53>> Very interesting. So explain me in
50:55simple terms as if I have no clue and
50:58you're telling me for the first time in
51:00the most layman terms. Okay. Don't don't
51:01be scientific.
51:02>> I won't be scientific.
51:03>> So it's like tell me how memor is
51:05formed.
51:06>> Okay.
51:08>> And where is it formed? Like what
51:09happens?
51:10>> Okay. So there are different kinds of
51:12memories.
51:13>> There's a memory of you learning how to
51:14ride a bicycle,
51:16>> right? You learned how to ride a
51:17bicycle. That is done. That's a
51:19procedural memory.
51:21>> That's a part of your brain. a different
51:23part of your brain that processes
51:24procedural memories. When you learned
51:26how to walk, when you learned how to
51:27bicycle, when you learned how to swim,
51:29>> that's one kind of memory. How you
51:31learned how to dance, maybe a beautiful
51:33sequence. These are all procedural
51:35memories.
51:36>> They're not memories that you consider
51:39the explicit memories. Explicit memories
51:41are memories where you and I can
51:42describe something. You can tell me
51:44yesterday I went out for a meal with
51:46this person. This is what I ate. That's
51:48your memory of what happened yesterday.
51:49You can also tell me that 20 years ago
51:52this was what I ate in the gali outside
51:54my school and this was how the vada
51:56tasted or whatever. Right? Those are
51:58explicit memories. Now these are two
52:00different classes of memories. They also
52:02tend to be processed by different parts
52:03of the brain.
52:04>> Right?
52:05>> Now one memory the learning how to ride
52:08a bicycle once you learned how to ride a
52:09bicycle you're not remembering every
52:10single time how did I ride the bus
52:12bicycle. You just get on and you ride.
52:13Yeah, it's
52:14>> the same way as you learned how to walk
52:15every time you're not remembering to
52:17walk I need to move my foot like this
52:19etc. Right, you just do it and that's
52:20all procedure. But explicit memories are
52:24in the retelling of the memory that the
52:26memory becomes actually relevant.
52:29>> Okay,
52:29>> if I have a memory and I never talk
52:31about it ever over time the memories
52:33will fade. Right? It is in my
52:36description of the memories that they
52:38get alive
52:40>> either openly by my talking about it or
52:43by my thinking about it. I can think
52:46about it and keep that memory alive as
52:48well. So sometimes you close your eyes
52:49and you imagine someone you loved, a
52:52parent, a family member who's no more,
52:53but you can almost imagine their face
52:56and it comes back up because it's a
52:58visual memory that you're recreating.
53:00And some people are very visual and they
53:02can actually close their eyes and bring
53:04back the memory of the person.
53:06>> But those memories are kept alive by
53:08your brain or when you talk about
53:10something
53:10>> explicit.
53:11>> Yeah, those are explicit memories. They
53:13are actually formed all explicit
53:15memories appear to be formed involving
53:17the hippocampus. So we need the
53:18hippocampus for explicit memories. And
53:21the way we understood this was actually
53:24um because of a person called HM. Okay,
53:27HM was a guy called Henry Molasan. He
53:30had severe seizures. He just was seizing
53:34so badly and there was no medication or
53:35treatment for it. So the surgeon went in
53:37and took out the part of the brain that
53:39was producing the seizures because the
53:41seizures were so severe he couldn't
53:43function.
53:44>> But in the process, the part of the
53:45brain that was producing it was the
53:46hippocampus. So they took out the
53:49hypocampus bilaterally. And now Henry
53:51could not make any new memories. Old
53:54memories which had distributed out of
53:55the hypocampus were still there. But all
53:58the new memories nothing new could be
54:00formed. So let's say I was a doctor and
54:02you are Henry. I come and say hi Henry
54:04how are you today? Shall we talk about
54:06something? Then tomorrow I come again I
54:07have to introduce myself cuz you have no
54:09idea who I am. You have made no memory
54:10of either me or this interaction. But if
54:13I try teach you to draw something,
54:16>> you learn it and you get better and
54:18better at drawing it because pro
54:19procedural memory is still okay.
54:21>> So that's when we first learned that the
54:23hippoc campus is so important for
54:26forming memories. So our idea of
54:28location and space and people and events
54:32is encoded first in the hypoc campus.
54:34>> Interesting.
54:35>> Then from there it goes to being
54:36distributed in many different it's like
54:38almost a bank teller machine. You need
54:40to have the hypoc campus to get the
54:42memory. After that you don't keep
54:43everything in the hypoc, you distribute
54:45it. So you send it to many other parts
54:46of the cortex. So now it lives in many
54:48different distributed places. And that's
54:50why old memories which are distributed
54:53to many locations tend to be the last to
54:56go.
54:58So when you have someone who's much
54:59older in your family who has Alzheimer's
55:01or is has cognitive impairments or
55:04dementia, they will sometimes remember
55:06the most excruciatingly small detail
55:09about some old memory, but they don't
55:11remember who you are
55:12>> as recent as what has happened
55:14yesterday. They don't remember. It's
55:16because that memory is relatively fresh
55:17and hasn't had a chance to become an old
55:20stable consolidated memory that's
55:22distributed to many locations in the
55:25brain.
55:25>> True. True. I've I've seen this live in
55:28one of my family members. [snorts] they
55:31they went through an episode for about 6
55:347 days where they for like they had this
55:39like very I I wouldn't I don't know if
55:40you call it stroke or like some some
55:43sort of episode where
55:45>> they forgot who the family members were
55:48and they were like who's this person
55:50>> but next morning they just and everybody
55:55in the family was very shocked that oh
55:56maybe they've forgotten everything and
55:58now this is end and you know how family
56:00reacts first time.
56:01>> Next morning that person woke up at the
56:04exact same time when they wake up. They
56:06got up, they started cooking in an exact
56:09proper way as if everything [snorts] was
56:11normal and they served it to the five
56:13people who they remembered.
56:14>> Yeah,
56:15>> that's interesting. Yeah, the brain is a
56:17very complex. It's like brain like that
56:20person's brain remembered how to cook,
56:22>> where the food is,
56:24>> where the salt is, like all of that
56:26thing, but they couldn't remember who
56:28was this person muscle memory.
56:30>> Then you dance or you sing or you
56:32sometimes even produce some piece which
56:34involves movement. You're not thinking
56:36that nowaday
56:38then I have to do this. Let's say
56:40someone who's been doing bat natam for
56:41multiple years. There are so many
56:43different dances. Do you remember which
56:45is the next step? It's become muscle
56:46memory, right? When we call something
56:48becoming muscle memory, it's because
56:50it's almost as though it's produced
56:51automatically. So for many people who
56:54would be going to the kitchen every day
56:56doing the same ritual, you know, putying
56:58something, doing something, that
57:00repeated action is almost muscle memory.
57:03It's not now I have to remember that I
57:05have to take this out and then do this.
57:07>> So when does this normal explicit memory
57:10become muscle memory?
57:12>> So procedural memories become muscle
57:15memories very easily. That's the ones
57:16that involve movement.
57:19>> Explicit memories get distributed and
57:22don't become muscle memories, but they
57:24get distributed to multiple parts of
57:25your cortex. So, they become, how to put
57:28it? They're more stable because they've
57:29had time to marinate and distribute to
57:33many parts of the brain. So, very old
57:36memories which are very strong memories
57:38tend to get distributed like this. But
57:39let me ask you a question. You went to
57:42school in Mumbai. I don't know where you
57:44went to school. Indor.
57:45>> Indor. You had a favorite teacher?
57:47>> Yeah.
57:47>> You remember your favorite teacher?
57:49>> Do you remember the person you hated the
57:50most in school who didn't was a bad
57:52teacher?
57:53>> Do you remember all the people who you
57:54were neutral towards?
57:55>> No, I don't remember half of their name.
57:58I don't [laughter] I'm finding it hard
58:00like who were the apart from five
58:01teachers who are new, I don't even know
58:02who were the other teachers
58:03>> precisely. So this is a good exercise
58:05which one can easily do that if you go
58:07back 20 years 20 25 years sometimes 10
58:09years. Who do you remember from a large
58:12setting where there were many people you
58:14tend to remember the people you really
58:15liked tend to remember the people you
58:17really disliked the people you're
58:19neutral to you just forget
58:20>> so emotionally charged memories
58:22>> you remember anything that has emotion
58:24charged good charged bad doesn't matter
58:27negative charge or positive charge
58:28>> you basically need meaning to remember
58:31the memory it has to matter things that
58:33don't matter your brain is not so for
58:35example you're not going to remember
58:36formula and maths if if they're not
58:39changing your life every Yeah,
58:40>> if they're changing your life every day,
58:42you will remember it. But otherwise, why
58:43are you going to just go out of your
58:45brain?
58:46>> Interesting. So, but then why are some
58:48people or some kids or some individuals
58:51are so good with their memory and they
58:53remember everything versus some
58:55individuals are not.
58:57>> So, you know, there's there things where
58:59people talk aboutactic memory or
59:01photographic memory where you actually
59:03look at a page and now you remember it
59:04and the next day you just remember the
59:06page.
59:07That's some of it is training, some of
59:11it is inherent capabilities also. Like
59:14for example, someone is a really good
59:16dancer versus not. Someone's really good
59:18at having hand eye coordination and
59:20that's why they can play. So there will
59:21be some inherent differences but a lot
59:23of it is once you discover talent, you
59:26tend to hone it. You tend to hone it.
59:29When you are good at something and you
59:30realize, you know, this is I'm something
59:32that this is actually a positive reward
59:34for me because I feel good at it. Mhm.
59:36>> It's a selfperpetuating thing. The
59:39minute you find something you're good at
59:41and it gives you a sense of pleasure and
59:43a sense of reward that you have done
59:46well at it, you tend to go and repeat
59:48it. So are you telling me that if there
59:50is a kid okay in a family
59:54and let's say two kids who have exactly
59:56same
59:58identical biology and brain okay two
1:00:00kids
1:00:01>> one kid you tell that kid again again
1:00:04you're dumb you can't remember
1:00:05everything again and again every day for
1:00:07a year and one kid you keep telling
1:00:10every day that you're intelligent you
1:00:12remember everything okay you're you're
1:00:14such a brilliant kid you have sharp
1:00:16memory and you remember everything
1:00:18regardless of what they do. If you keep
1:00:19telling them, you think the one you're
1:00:21telling nice things will end up becoming
1:00:23better at memory than versus 1%. There's
1:00:26no doubt about it because the stress
1:00:29associated with continuously being
1:00:31negated and continuously being told
1:00:33you're incapable has a clear impact. I'm
1:00:36not saying it would be black or white,
1:00:38but there's no question that if you
1:00:40started with two individuals with
1:00:41identical capability and then the
1:00:43environment pushed one to have positive
1:00:46reinforcement and the other to have
1:00:47continuous negative reinforcement,
1:00:49there's no doubt that you will drive a
1:00:51different
1:00:54>> and can they do that in adults as well?
1:00:56>> To a lesser extent, but absolutely to a
1:00:58lesser extent because the brain is much
1:01:00more plastic and much more open to
1:01:03change in a younger nervous system. So
1:01:06your first 25 years of your life, that's
1:01:08a window in which there's much more
1:01:10plasticity than in the second 25 and the
1:01:12last 25. It's downhill after that first
1:01:1525. It moves in the other direction. So
1:01:17plasticity is reducing in the range of
1:01:19what it can do. So when I say
1:01:21plasticity, it means the ability of your
1:01:23brain to change to effectively change in
1:01:26response to environment. Our brain is a
1:01:28like I said its job is to take in
1:01:30information from the environment and
1:01:32make change to be able to adapt better
1:01:35to the world. That's what it does.
1:01:37>> Interest very interest. But tell me how
1:01:40Okay. Coming to high achievers. Okay.
1:01:43And this is the most fascinating thing
1:01:44which I
1:01:46which I love doing. Right. So I I
1:01:48observe a lot of athletes and just for
1:01:51the fun of it like how do they perform
1:01:53how do they come to the show court what
1:01:55do they do in practice and all the
1:01:56videos I can find out right there's one
1:01:58identical thing you will find out in I
1:02:00think thousands of Olympic athletes okay
1:02:04and you'll see that probably you know it
1:02:05already is when like you you look at all
1:02:08the runners or anyone the moment there
1:02:11is like this
1:02:12>> the gun right the body moves have you
1:02:14seen it like
1:02:15>> it's a prep
1:02:16>> yeah it's a prep right an internal prep
1:02:18of the brain before the anything
1:02:20actually happens.
1:02:21>> So what I was seeing I was I was looking
1:02:23at this one runner who whose race was
1:02:27next. Okay. And he was in the stands and
1:02:29he was watching. This is Olympic going
1:02:31on and I think it was like a 400 meter
1:02:33race and next was 100 m something like
1:02:35that. Okay. This guy was standing here.
1:02:39The race was there and they put a gun
1:02:42trigger for that race. But this guy in
1:02:45the stand, he was like in a resting
1:02:47mode. His body moved.
1:02:48>> Totally understand.
1:02:49>> And like just his body took a reaction.
1:02:51So why why did that like what is going
1:02:53on? How how has it become muscle memory
1:02:55that a gunshot which will probably
1:02:59scare some people or make them nervous
1:03:01or make them prep? This guy is just
1:03:03can't think of anything and just moving
1:03:04like this. That's because that that
1:03:06entire sequence has probably been
1:03:08practiced in his mind over and over and
1:03:12over again. It's the same with someone
1:03:14like a concert pianist which is if
1:03:16you're hearing so I'll give you this is
1:03:19a good example because a concert pianist
1:03:21is actually a good way of so you know
1:03:23when you move your fingers in a
1:03:24particular way those individual fingers
1:03:27have representations in the brain and so
1:03:29that part of the brain is getting active
1:03:30as you're moving that finger and even
1:03:32before you move the finger there's
1:03:34something called the preoter which is
1:03:35before the sequence starts you imagine
1:03:38it and you start playing it now let's
1:03:41say I'm a concert pianist and you are
1:03:43playing the same sequence. I'm not even
1:03:45moving my fingers. I'm listening in the
1:03:47audience. I'm playing out the whole
1:03:49sequence in my preoter cortex because I
1:03:52know how the sequence will be played. I
1:03:55have practiced it so much that you're
1:03:57playing the music even before you hit
1:03:59the key will activate my brain to start
1:04:02producing the exact same sequence. And
1:04:04this is something called mirror neurons.
1:04:06We have the capability of imagining
1:04:09another's actions and before they
1:04:12perform the action we predict what
1:04:14they're going to do. So this is the
1:04:16prediction system that we have which is
1:04:18rather unique and special to primates.
1:04:21>> So primates tend to have this mirror
1:04:23neuron system really developed where we
1:04:25actually predict the other's action
1:04:28which helps you right it's a shortcut.
1:04:29Let's say you are sitting
1:04:40what you're going to do. And that's what
1:04:41we're doing in all social interactions.
1:04:44>> Yeah.
1:04:44>> We're mimicking the other person's
1:04:47potential action by imagining what they
1:04:49likely will do. And we tend to do this
1:04:52better with those whom we understand
1:04:54better. So you're Indian. I'm Indian. We
1:04:56have a common shared shared vocabulary
1:04:59of an understanding of our country, our
1:05:01culture. So it's an ease. Let's say you
1:05:03stick me with someone from like
1:05:05Indonesia and they don't speak English
1:05:08or they don't speak Hindi or they don't
1:05:09speak whatever common we will struggle
1:05:11initially because our ability to predict
1:05:13the other person's actions has gone cuz
1:05:15cultural context has moved away.
1:05:18>> This is why we find it easier to hang
1:05:20out with our own. M
1:05:22>> the problem with that is it also comes
1:05:24with a negative of that which is that we
1:05:26have an implicit bias to preferring
1:05:28people who sound like us look like us
1:05:31behave like us and we find it harder to
1:05:34deal with individuals who don't sound at
1:05:36all like us who behave very differently
1:05:38from us and that sometimes can create a
1:05:40bias
1:05:42>> interesting I'll tell you three
1:05:43processes okay of ultra high achievers
1:05:46tell me what's going on in their brain
1:05:48because all three of them have won
1:05:50>> tremendously thousands of times in their
1:05:52life. Okay. [snorts] One is Michael
1:05:54Jordan,
1:05:54>> one is Michael Phelps and the third is
1:05:56Napoleon.
1:05:57>> Okay. All three they have different
1:05:59process because
1:06:00>> you said that things that we experience
1:06:03and things that we do
1:06:06>> they either become procedure memory or
1:06:08explicit memory and when they when we
1:06:10keep repeating it again again the
1:06:12stories in our brain again again it ends
1:06:14up becoming a very strong memory. Right?
1:06:17That's how
1:06:17>> we end up winning or losing in some
1:06:20sort. Okay. performing that affects our
1:06:22ability to perform a task.
1:06:24>> Yeah. So all three people. So Michael
1:06:26Jordan what he does he would imagine in
1:06:30his brain throwing a basket. Right. So
1:06:33he he says this that everything in life
1:06:35happens twice. One inside your brain and
1:06:37then in reality. So it has already
1:06:39happened in your so he would practice
1:06:41the whole match.
1:06:42>> Yeah.
1:06:43>> That I'm throwing this. He would
1:06:44visualize it. Right. So that's one
1:06:46process.
1:06:47>> Second is Michael Phelps. what he used
1:06:50to do for years since the time he
1:06:53started training till he actually ended
1:06:55up winning almost every race in the
1:06:57world right every night before sleeping
1:07:01he used to see himself winning
1:07:04>> not the process so Michael Jordan is
1:07:05looking at process I'm getting the pass
1:07:07from here I'm doing this Phelps is only
1:07:10seeing himself winning
1:07:12>> like this is what I've won
1:07:14>> after winning I've done this after like
1:07:16right before winning I'm like my this is
1:07:18how my water is and he would see himself
1:07:20winning in different situations like
1:07:22>> if my water broke like if my goggles
1:07:26broke and water got in how do I win
1:07:29>> if let's say I get stuck if my latest
1:07:31like start is late I'm a win it's just
1:07:33winning
1:07:34>> and the third process is Napoleon before
1:07:37every big battle he would sit down and
1:07:40he would imagine himself losing
1:07:43>> that what are the ways that I can die
1:07:45today
1:07:46>> yeah it's a survival
1:07:47>> right It's a it's it's a thing that
1:07:50>> so he would just see himself dying from
1:07:52all the ways and that's why he will
1:07:53never die
1:07:55>> like he would win almost because he is
1:07:57eliminated in his head these are the
1:07:59maybe 23 ways today I'm going to die
1:08:01>> and I won't
1:08:02>> protect myself
1:08:03>> I'm going to protect from those 23
1:08:04>> all three different ways all three are
1:08:07somehow actually practicing memory in
1:08:09your head
1:08:10>> to end up winning what is going on in
1:08:12their brains is it all three different
1:08:14things they're activating different
1:08:16things or same
1:08:17>> likely activating different things. The
1:08:19one that you could the first example of
1:08:20Michael Jordan, he's activating every
1:08:24single circuit of practice,
1:08:26>> either the real practice or the created
1:08:28practice in his nervous system. So, he's
1:08:30highly process driven. It's like, I'm
1:08:32going to remember how it feels to shoot
1:08:34the three-pointer, etc. How am I going
1:08:36to do this over and over and over again?
1:08:38And clearly, the love of the game is
1:08:40obvious in him. He has inspired multiple
1:08:41people to fall in love with the game as
1:08:43well, right? So, I think that is very
1:08:45processoriented. Michael Phelps has also
1:08:47got insane bodily advantages that span I
1:08:50mean there's a reason he was the
1:08:51albatross. There's a there's the span
1:08:53itself. So there's a physical advantage
1:08:55but it's interesting that he's imagining
1:08:57the so it's almost like a positive
1:08:59reinforcement. His goal is that I want
1:09:01to win that race and he's reinforcing
1:09:04that positivity in him over and over
1:09:06again but clearly not simultaneously
1:09:09saying that if I don't win this I give
1:09:11up. That doesn't seem to be part of the
1:09:13dialogue. It's I'm going after this and
1:09:15I'm going to go after this no matter
1:09:16what the circumstance. My goggles break,
1:09:19you know, something isn't working
1:09:20perfectly, I'm still going to give it
1:09:22everything I've got.
1:09:23>> So the thought of losing doesn't occur.
1:09:25What is going on is
1:09:26>> absolutely. So in a sense he's just
1:09:29ideating the outcome for himself, right?
1:09:31This is like I'm convinced I'm going to
1:09:32do this. Largely it turned out to be
1:09:35correct. I mean someone can ideate this
1:09:36and it may not work out because they
1:09:38have not done the work. It's also
1:09:39Michael Ferris, [laughter] right? I mean
1:09:41I could sit here and say I also want to
1:09:43win the Olympics but if I get to the
1:09:44pool I will not even cross the so that
1:09:46that's there there is a realistic
1:09:48element to it his ideation it's not just
1:09:51a pipe dream it's someone who's
1:09:53performing at the top of their game and
1:09:54then he's saying I'm going to ideate the
1:09:56best outcome possible so that's very
1:09:59realistically based it's not a it's not
1:10:01a total pipe dream but human beings have
1:10:05done this over and over again I mean
1:10:07there are examples of saying I want to
1:10:09go to the moon. We wouldn't have
1:10:11believed we could have gone to the moon
1:10:12or gone to the other side of the moon
1:10:14and even seen anything. And we've done
1:10:15that right as a species. So clearly
1:10:18pushing yourself that it is possible to
1:10:20do what feels like the impossible
1:10:23>> is one way of motivating yourself to get
1:10:25to that goal. In the case of Napoleon, I
1:10:27think he's
1:10:29based on this description would be
1:10:31performing out of fear.
1:10:33>> It's a how do I survive? And those were
1:10:36survival circumstances. If you don't
1:10:37have that instinct, you are going to be
1:10:39dead on a battlefield, especially a
1:10:41battlefield unlike the ones of today and
1:10:43of that era. So I think that's operating
1:10:46out of of a fear mentality. And
1:10:48certainly every description of him in
1:10:50history indicates that it was a man who
1:10:52was who would use every possible
1:10:55manipulative tool available to him in
1:10:57his arsenal to ensure that he survives.
1:11:00>> Right? So it was one who was a
1:11:02pragmatist almost in a sense. Right? How
1:11:05do I not be the one who's taken out on
1:11:08this battlefield? It's that approach.
1:11:11>> They're very different. I don't think
1:11:12the first two are operating from fear.
1:11:14The last one, I think, is operating from
1:11:16fear, but is still successful despite
1:11:18that because of the kind of situation
1:11:20it's in.
1:11:21>> But [clears throat] which one is the one
1:11:22that gets the sustained admiration is
1:11:24also interesting from our species.
1:11:27[snorts]
1:11:27It's also interesting, right?
1:11:29>> No one. After 50 years, no one.
1:11:30>> After 50 years, no one. But Napoleon is
1:11:32more than 50 years. Hm.
1:11:34>> So it's interesting because
1:11:35>> No, it's also because they had influence
1:11:37on writings. These guys don't have an
1:11:39influence on writings. So we can't
1:11:40>> History is always written by the
1:11:42winners. That's always unfortunately the
1:11:44case. History is also written by
1:11:46dominant voices.
1:11:48>> You know, culturally [clears throat]
1:11:48it's always been written by dominant
1:11:50voices.
1:11:51>> So So one is operating out of process,
1:11:54one is operated operating out of
1:11:57ideiating
1:11:58a situation for himself and one is out
1:12:01operating out of fear. Mhm.
1:12:03>> Are they operating from different parts
1:12:05of their brain?
1:12:06>> Likely
1:12:07>> what what is activating in in case of
1:12:09Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps and
1:12:10Napoleon?
1:12:11>> So I I would imagine that in the
1:12:12procedural situation, you're activating
1:12:15the circuits that control that action.
1:12:17Let's say you're imagining a
1:12:18three-pointer over and over and over
1:12:20again. You have a sequence, a muscle
1:12:22sequence that gets activated, your motor
1:12:24cortex gets activated, then your spinal
1:12:25column, then you have to get your
1:12:27position of your body just right. And
1:12:29you've practiced it so many times that
1:12:31you can probably think that sequence out
1:12:34without doing it. And if you keep
1:12:36activating that and then you practice it
1:12:38multiple times, it is eventually when
1:12:40you are in that situation, it's almost
1:12:42automatic. It feels almost automatic. So
1:12:46you're actually driving probably the
1:12:48procedural memories I was telling you.
1:12:50>> So is it like
1:12:51>> it's
1:12:53this part of the brain. So there is a in
1:12:55this it is invisible but there's a
1:12:57region here which underneath this. So
1:12:59like if you were you're now cutting
1:13:00through half the brain like this
1:13:02underneath this there's a region called
1:13:03the strriatum.
1:13:05>> The striatum and the basil ganglia
1:13:07circuitry are what do the procedural
1:13:09learning that's the circuit that's
1:13:10activated in
1:13:12>> Michael Jordan's brain when he's doing
1:13:14that. Yeah. And that activates a
1:13:16cerebral cortex preoter and motor from
1:13:19the motor cortex. It goes all the way
1:13:21down through the spinal column all the
1:13:23way to the muscles of his arms and back
1:13:25eventually driving the release. Right?
1:13:28So it's that sequence and the sequence
1:13:30is multiple neurons connected with each
1:13:33other that get activated that now you're
1:13:35doing it without shooting the ball and
1:13:36you're doing it repeatedly
1:13:38>> over and over again.
1:13:39>> That's how eventually also you improve
1:13:43that circuit. So you can drive a circuit
1:13:45by thinking it through over and over
1:13:47again. And so in some sense that's also
1:13:49how you memorize something.
1:13:51>> That's also how you learn something over
1:13:53a period of time. So you can also do it
1:13:55for procedural memory as well. So just
1:13:57by thinking about it, he's actually
1:13:59getting better. Okay. And with Phelps,
1:14:02what is he activating?
1:14:03>> With Phelps, he's likely activating his
1:14:06prefrontal cortex to override negative
1:14:10outcomes. So his liyic cortex would say,
1:14:12"What the heck would happen if my
1:14:13goggles broke halfway through and I have
1:14:15water in my eyes?" Right? So now that's
1:14:18a negative outcome. he's activating
1:14:21probably the prefrontal cortex which
1:14:23would then say despite that negative
1:14:25outcome you are going to be able to do
1:14:27this. So you're driving circuits in the
1:14:29brain that are giving you control over
1:14:32the responses that would happen if an
1:14:33emergency should happen in the water.
1:14:35Let's say your goggles do break.
1:14:36Everybody else has goggles and they're
1:14:38they're getting to their goal. You now
1:14:40have to function with something that has
1:14:41given you a handicap in that situation.
1:14:44How do you not let that handicap become
1:14:47a serious handicap? So you've ideiated
1:14:50and imagined that handicap already
1:14:52before it occurs and you've allowed
1:14:54yourself to say if this were to happen
1:14:56this is how I will handle it. Right? So
1:15:00in some sense think about it like let's
1:15:02say you I mean like now let's think of a
1:15:04simple exam. Let's say you're going for
1:15:05an exam and you have an exam for which
1:15:07you've studied but you're now convinced
1:15:10yourself you'll forget everything you've
1:15:11studied and when you go into the room
1:15:13everything will come out of your brain
1:15:14and you will not be able to write a
1:15:15single word because you're so nervous.
1:15:18How do you prepare yourself for that
1:15:20possibility that you tell yourself that
1:15:22if that was to arise, how am I going to
1:15:24calm myself down so that I can at least
1:15:27handle one or two. So if you practice
1:15:28this to yourself, you would say in my
1:15:30entire paper, there'll be at least one
1:15:31question I can answer. I say 100 mark
1:15:33paper, I can't answer all 100. I'll find
1:15:35one question I can answer. Should I feel
1:15:37so nervous, I will find the one question
1:15:39I can answer and answer it. And you've
1:15:41prepared yourself before that situation
1:15:43to tackle that. Hopefully, then you say,
1:15:46okay, I answered one question. Maybe the
1:15:48second question I'll find in my 100
1:15:49which I can still answer. Even if I
1:15:51can't answer it very well, I can answer.
1:15:53That should have brought your calmness
1:15:54in enough that it will give you some
1:15:57room to tackle what would have been
1:15:58impossible otherwise. You've been
1:16:00paralyzed by the hardest question and
1:16:01not even attempted one. So it's in a
1:16:04sense preparing yourself for the worst
1:16:06possible outcome that I forgot
1:16:08everything. How will I handle such a
1:16:10situation? It's like when you go on
1:16:12stage and you have a fear of public
1:16:14speaking and a paralytic fear of public
1:16:16speaking. You will never be able to get
1:16:18over that unless somewhere you calm
1:16:20yourself by saying if I have to do this
1:16:22I will look at the one friendly face in
1:16:24the audience that is smiling back at me
1:16:26and I will talk like I'm having a
1:16:27conversation with that one person.
1:16:28Imagine the rest of the room there's
1:16:30nobody.
1:16:31>> So you tell yourself what you will do
1:16:33should that situation arise. And I think
1:16:35that is that is Michael Fel's strategy
1:16:39which is that should something go wrong
1:16:41this is how I'm going to handle it.
1:16:42>> So if in every brain in every human
1:16:45being largely there's a voice which is
1:16:49saying that you are going to win there's
1:16:51a voice which is saying this is not for
1:16:53you. You will up you will mess up. You
1:16:55will forget everything. And there's
1:16:57you're not born for it. Look at your
1:16:59situation. And there's this voice which
1:17:00is actually killing you down like the
1:17:01little voice right? So just by thinking
1:17:05about winning again and again with 20
1:17:08different bad situations in your brain
1:17:11>> can actually kill this voice.
1:17:14>> I think it can help control it. I don't
1:17:17think it can kill the voice. If that
1:17:19voice is there and it has been nurtured
1:17:21and believe me many people nurture the
1:17:24voice. Either you nurture it or other
1:17:26people in your life nurture that voice.
1:17:28which is to say that something isn't
1:17:30doable, something isn't possible, it's
1:17:32improbable, why are you even bothering
1:17:34to try so either you will do it or
1:17:37someone in your circle will do it. It
1:17:40may exist, but if you tell yourself that
1:17:42I'm going to give it the best possible
1:17:44shot that I can, then in principle you
1:17:47can control that voice. I don't think
1:17:49you can get rid of it completely because
1:17:52it's likely a little bit inherent and
1:17:55it's some of it is also survival. Like
1:17:56let's say tomorrow I want to climb Mount
1:17:58Everest but I'm scared of heights
1:18:01>> then I may not necessarily be the best
1:18:03person to climb Mount Everest. So it is
1:18:05also protecting me that that little
1:18:07voice is also telling me you know maybe
1:18:09this you just watch somebody climb Mount
1:18:11Everest and maybe you don't attempt to
1:18:13do it right this is not your cup of tea
1:18:15but it is also the same voice that's
1:18:17telling me don't take on this research
1:18:19problem because this is too difficult
1:18:20for you to ask and that then I have to
1:18:23silence
1:18:24>> because I that then harms my ability to
1:18:27ask that research question I want to
1:18:29push that boundary of knowledge I want
1:18:31to try that even if it's going to be
1:18:33possibly a failure here. I don't want to
1:18:35not try. I want to give it the shot that
1:18:37I have. Then I have to silence that
1:18:39voice. So that voice sometimes is
1:18:42protective and sometimes is saving you
1:18:44from doing something you shouldn't do
1:18:45and sometimes it's just a deterrent and
1:18:48it's not letting you move forward. So
1:18:49you have to have the ability to control
1:18:51it to that degree. Yeah.
1:18:54>> Interesting. And in the last case which
1:18:56was Napoleon's case,
1:18:57>> where is he operating from?
1:18:58>> I think he's operating from the
1:19:00amygdala. So there's the this is the
1:19:02hippocampus. Right in front of the
1:19:04hippocampus is this arament shaped
1:19:06structure called the amydala which is
1:19:08your fear threat safety emotion
1:19:12processing center. It's a vital center.
1:19:15Without this you don't survive because
1:19:16you won't
1:19:17>> fight or flight.
1:19:18>> Yeah. Absolute fight or flight. Like if
1:19:19if you're in a in the middle of some
1:19:21prairie and some lion comes to eat you
1:19:24up, you need to run and or hide, right?
1:19:26One of the two. So the amydala is vital
1:19:28for processing threats. It's also a
1:19:30structure that is critical for you to
1:19:32detect safety.
1:19:34It's not just a threat processing
1:19:35center. It also does safety detection,
1:19:38emotional detection, emotional veilance
1:19:40of memories, importance of memories. I
1:19:43think he's operating from there because
1:19:45using that he's saying I'm going to
1:19:47eliminate everything that might
1:19:48potentially
1:19:50allow me to not survive and I'm going to
1:19:53find all the safety things that are
1:19:55going to help me survive this. So it is
1:19:58operating from your lyic nervous system.
1:20:00this part of your what people like to
1:20:02call the reptilian brain but basically
1:20:04it's your survival processing emotion
1:20:06threat detection system which evolution
1:20:09has maintained in all mammals because
1:20:11without that you don't you don't live to
1:20:13tell the tale
1:20:14>> but then you also have been given this
1:20:16massive cerebral cortex which you can
1:20:18see the size of the cerebral cortex in
1:20:20the rat brain
1:20:21>> that was that smooth structure I showed
1:20:23you
1:20:23>> and you can see this huge cerebral
1:20:26cortex in the human what that has done
1:20:28is it's given you ability to do top-
1:20:30down control of all these circuits.
1:20:32That's your positive voice that's going
1:20:34to tell you, I'm not going to be a
1:20:36victim to this set of circumstances as
1:20:38well. It's the same circuit that's
1:20:40telling you 10 people told me I'm
1:20:43incapable of doing this. I'm going to
1:20:44tell myself I'm going to try,
1:20:46>> right? It's still that very circuit. So,
1:20:48this huge expansion has come with some
1:20:50massive benefits for us as a species.
1:20:52So, we should use it.
1:20:54>> You know, this is where poetry,
1:20:55philosophy, creativity,
1:20:58etc. emerges.
1:20:59>> So now explain me if somebody is
1:21:02watching this, okay, and they want to
1:21:05find out that what kind of winner they
1:21:07can be because in theory all three
1:21:12winners activated a different part of
1:21:14their brain and kept telling them that
1:21:16story based on probably their
1:21:18personality or their biology or the
1:21:21structure of their brain or social
1:21:22environment. Right.
1:21:23>> Right. [snorts]
1:21:24>> How can I find out which one will work
1:21:26for me? I would say go for the most
1:21:28sustainable [snorts] and the most
1:21:30sustainable is when you fall in love
1:21:32with doing something. You have to like
1:21:34what you do. That is the single most
1:21:37sustainable way of the long-term
1:21:40likelihood that you will achieve
1:21:41something.
1:21:42>> But can I find out?
1:21:44>> You can.
1:21:45>> Can I find out that do I love
1:21:48>> Yeah.
1:21:50Like like what do I mean? Like you know
1:21:52can I find out as an individual that do
1:21:54I love fighting my fears? Do I love
1:21:59being process driven because I love the
1:22:01process or do I just love being
1:22:04delusional about just winning because
1:22:06all three processes.
1:22:08I think you can figure it out if you
1:22:10watch your patterns of behavior and look
1:22:13back at what you did and what were your
1:22:15moments where you really felt that you
1:22:18got to some goal. Let's say you set some
1:22:20goal and you achieved it and over I mean
1:22:22a life of 20 30 years. You'll be able to
1:22:24figure out where that goal was achieved
1:22:26in a way that you felt hey I not only
1:22:29enjoyed the process I also loved the
1:22:30goal that I eventually got to and what
1:22:32was it that took me to getting there and
1:22:34what's the pattern of behavior I have
1:22:37used my suggestion is not to function
1:22:40from fear the last in my opinion is the
1:22:43worst of that those three examples
1:22:45you're going to get [laughter] paranoid
1:22:46>> because you will just you will get to
1:22:48set goal but you will make you will fry
1:22:50your brain in the process and I'm not so
1:22:52sure that that's worth it because the
1:22:54cost of that eventually catch up and
1:22:56they tend to catch up as you age.
1:22:58Because if you continuously drive your
1:23:00fear circuit and your stress response
1:23:02pathways, you will eventually drive your
1:23:05brain towards a state which is not a
1:23:07very healthy state. The the Jordan and
1:23:10Phelps examples are far better examples
1:23:13because they're not operating from fear.
1:23:15They are different styles, no question
1:23:17about it, but they're not operating from
1:23:18fear. So I would say long-term sustained
1:23:23success cannot come from fear. This
1:23:25would be my general view that fear is
1:23:28not a good driver of that.
1:23:30>> Can you tell me like a framework or a
1:23:32question or an exercise for me and my
1:23:35viewers to ask ourselves right now so
1:23:37that we can find out at least largely or
1:23:40closely which process will work for us.
1:23:42>> Okay. I would first say find out what
1:23:45you thoroughly have enjoyed doing. Okay.
1:23:48first. So, first you have to find out
1:23:49what you really enjoy doing. And when
1:23:51you enjoy doing it, sometimes you um it
1:23:54leaves you feeling happy enough to want
1:23:56to share it with other people and to
1:23:57talk about it. Let's say you read
1:23:59something and you were so excited by it
1:24:02because you read it that you had to
1:24:03share it with three four people
1:24:05immediately and say, you know, I read
1:24:06something so interesting or I did
1:24:08something that was so interesting and I
1:24:10want to share it with people I care
1:24:12about. So that's one good way to start
1:24:14pinpointing at least five things that
1:24:16you really genuinely enjoy doing and
1:24:19sustainably can want to share it with
1:24:21other people.
1:24:21>> What do you love pontificating about?
1:24:23>> Pontificating is a good Yeah. I mean
1:24:25like I love pontificating about the
1:24:27brain. So clearly I love I love the
1:24:28brain. Right. [laughter] Exactly. So you
1:24:30So this is it. You like like talking
1:24:31about something. So you find out what
1:24:33that is. Two,
1:24:35>> you find out
1:24:37you find out whether you're willing to
1:24:39do the work. That's the sustainability.
1:24:43>> Are you willing to do the work? Because
1:24:45you can enjoy something transiently, but
1:24:47if you're not willing to put in the
1:24:48effort, no, it's not going to sustain.
1:24:51It doesn't matter whether you're a
1:24:52Michael Phelps or you're a Michael
1:24:54Jordan. In both those cases, those
1:24:56examples do not work without a ton of
1:24:58effort. So effort and process is
1:25:01eventually the long-term way of
1:25:04sustained achievement. So I would say,
1:25:07are you willing to put in the work? What
1:25:08will you put in the work for? If you
1:25:10have to do this over and over again, day
1:25:13in and day out for hours at a time, will
1:25:15you be able to do this and will you be
1:25:16able to sustain it or are you going to
1:25:18get so bored and so put off that you're
1:25:20going to quit?
1:25:21>> That's the second question that you have
1:25:23to ask. And three, I think you have to
1:25:26ask that if you didn't get the outcome
1:25:28that you wanted, would the process have
1:25:30given you enough joy?
1:25:32M
1:25:34>> that's the hardest question to answer
1:25:36but that's the question that's worth
1:25:38answering
1:25:39>> because very difficult to answer
1:25:40>> it's a very difficult one but it's the
1:25:42one that will sustain you because the
1:25:45outcome is a byproduct the process is
1:25:48eventually what you have to do
1:25:50>> when you started did you know you were
1:25:51going to be successful
1:25:53>> I knew I would
1:25:54>> you knew you were su you knew you when
1:25:56your first podcast did you know you
1:25:57would be successful
1:25:58>> I'll make it perhaps
1:25:59>> because that's cuz you were convincing
1:26:00yourself but did you like the process
1:26:02independent of the outcome. Exactly. So
1:26:03that answers the question, right? You
1:26:05were happy to talk to all kinds of
1:26:07people over and over again because you
1:26:09enjoyed that process.
1:26:11>> It was
1:26:12>> the question I asked myself that if
1:26:16I knew that I will win and will be able
1:26:19to make something out of it. The
1:26:21question was if I'm not able to do it
1:26:23for 10 years, will I still be happy? And
1:26:25the answer was yes. So that's a great
1:26:28question because you just answered that
1:26:30question which was if I did the process
1:26:31for 10 years and at 10 year point I had
1:26:33still not hit the outcome I wanted I'd
1:26:36have been happy those 10 years was spent
1:26:38doing that because I enjoyed those 10
1:26:40years enough
1:26:41>> that that answers it that's precisely it
1:26:44can you if independent of the outcome
1:26:46will you be able to sustain what is
1:26:48required of the process if you are able
1:26:50to do that you'll do the hard work it'll
1:26:52also get to the goal because if you do
1:26:53this well enough eventually you'll get
1:26:55to the goal you eventually get to the
1:26:57goal. I think what happens is people
1:26:59become supremely outcome focused
1:27:02very quickly are not willing to do the
1:27:05process and want the results yesterday
1:27:07where yesterday I want to win yesterday
1:27:11but I'm not willing to do any of the
1:27:12work that is required to be Michael
1:27:14Jordan and Michael Felts you have to do
1:27:17a lot of work a lot of work you can't
1:27:19become just Michael Jordan Michael felt
1:27:21by saying today morning I'm going to
1:27:23wake up and I will be able to do that
1:27:24and I have to put in the work of course
1:27:26in those cases because you're looking at
1:27:28athletic ability there are skills that
1:27:30are required but in many things skills
1:27:32are required and you need the skills but
1:27:34without the process and without doing
1:27:36the work there is no
1:27:37>> no way fair okay so if you open up let's
1:27:42say a billionaire's brain of let's say I
1:27:45don't know Elon Musk okay
1:27:47>> and you open up a brain of a 25year-old
1:27:52or a 35year-old who's here
1:27:55at his home feeling stuck. It's like I'm
1:27:59not able to do something. I don't like
1:28:00my life. Will their brains be identical
1:28:04or different?
1:28:05>> So no brain is identical to any other
1:28:08brain. So let's start with that. Even if
1:28:09you take identical twins who have the
1:28:12same genetic makeup, their brains are
1:28:14not identical.
1:28:15>> Partly because your brain is continuing.
1:28:21Okay? Now I have all of these rooms one
1:28:24above each other. They're all identical
1:28:25in terms of the shape of the room.
1:28:27Everything is in the same place. But
1:28:29then I decorate each room completely
1:28:31differently. The interior decorators
1:28:32come in room. It doesn't look like each
1:28:34other. Even though the kitchen is always
1:28:36in the same place, the bathroom is in
1:28:38the same place, the bedroom is in the
1:28:39same. So if I look at your brain, my
1:28:41brain, Elon Musk's brain, anyone's
1:28:43brain, the prefrontal cortex is always
1:28:46here. It's not not going to be in this
1:28:48part. Your temporal loes are always
1:28:49going to be here. Your cerebilum is
1:28:51always going. So the locations will be
1:28:53the same but in the detail they will
1:28:55vary quite a bit because experience is
1:28:59educating the blueprint. So like the
1:29:00interior decorator is decorating the
1:29:03rooms differently. Life experiences are
1:29:06teaching the brain to readjust the way
1:29:08it looks in its detail. So the neurons
1:29:11dendrites the strength of the
1:29:13connections what pathway is particularly
1:29:15strong in one individual versus another
1:29:17is continuously being educated by life.
1:29:20>> Okay. No one lives the same life. Even
1:29:23two identical twins growing up in the
1:29:25same household don't live the same life
1:29:26because right from inutro when they're
1:29:29in their mother's tummy their
1:29:31nutritional access is not identical.
1:29:33>> Okay.
1:29:34>> So even though genetically they they're
1:29:37clones of each other
1:29:38>> they're not getting the same nutritional
1:29:40access. They will not have the same life
1:29:42experiences. So already there is that
1:29:44much difference. Okay. Right. So
1:29:46certainly from someone who is perhaps at
1:29:48the lowest point in their life where
1:29:50they feel they have no hope their brain
1:29:53is going to show certain structural
1:29:55changes that are associ es especially if
1:29:57they have a condition like major
1:29:59depression or anxiety or any of these
1:30:01there are some structural changes that
1:30:03are happening. There are biochemical
1:30:04changes happening in the brain. So there
1:30:06is a different neurochemistry in this
1:30:07brain from someone who is perhaps at the
1:30:11top end of their game where they're
1:30:12continuously challenging their nervous
1:30:14system etc.
1:30:17>> Also what histories of food you have
1:30:18eaten, what histories of drugs you've
1:30:20taken, what histories of life
1:30:22experiences you've had are going to
1:30:24change your brain. So it's not going to
1:30:25be identical. No.
1:30:27>> But you won't be able to tell like at
1:30:29the
1:30:30>> which one's a billionaire brain versus
1:30:31which one. But is it like some part of
1:30:33the brain will be bigger or smaller just
1:30:36because I get dopamine by winning sure
1:30:40winning or versus I get dopamine by just
1:30:42losing or maybe I don't get dopamine at
1:30:45all?
1:30:45>> No, it's not going to drastically vary
1:30:47unless there's for example I mean where
1:30:49the variation comes which is very
1:30:50visibly obvious is if you look at an
1:30:52addict's brain 101% you'll be able to
1:30:54tell that there is a history of
1:30:56addiction. If you look at an individual
1:30:58that has gone to severe trauma like a
1:31:00post-traumatic stress disorder, etc.
1:31:02There are physical architectural
1:31:04changes, volume shrinks, the hypocampus
1:31:06shows a shrinkage. So you can see that
1:31:08someone who has chonic alcoholism, yes,
1:31:11you can tell that that brain has had
1:31:12that kind of alcohol or cocaine or
1:31:14heroin abuse. There are clear obvious
1:31:17structural changes that I think you can
1:31:19make up. But in the detail of whether
1:31:22someone is terribly motivated versus
1:31:24not, you're not going to necessarily
1:31:26pick that up very easily from looking at
1:31:29just an MRI.
1:31:30>> Yeah, you may pick it up if you start
1:31:32looking at the intensity of specific
1:31:34receptors. So for example, people have
1:31:37done these studies in in animals that
1:31:39have a social dominance hierarchy. So
1:31:41there is the alpha at the top of the
1:31:43hierarchy. Then there are individuals at
1:31:45the lower end of the hierarchy. When you
1:31:47look at individuals on that hierarchy,
1:31:49their dopamine receptor and the stratum
1:31:51looks slightly different from each
1:31:53other. So yes, once you move to that
1:31:56level of detail, you might pick up
1:31:58subtle differences in the broad. No, but
1:32:00in subtlety, yes.
1:32:02>> Interesting. So explain me what is going
1:32:05on in someone's brain. Okay. when they
1:32:10are probably 25 or 35, okay? And every
1:32:15day they go do their work, they come
1:32:17back home and before bed they are
1:32:20feeling like something's missing.
1:32:23Is there some thing which is going wrong
1:32:26in my brain or is it like what's going
1:32:28on? Why do I feel like
1:32:31[snorts] am I not living up to my
1:32:32potential? I'm stuck. I'm not living the
1:32:35life that I want to live or maybe
1:32:37there's something missing like I'm not
1:32:38enjoying that.
1:32:40>> That's a common feeling. It's not an
1:32:42unusual feeling. I mean, a lot of people
1:32:44feel um feel like they're stuck in a rut
1:32:49>> where this doesn't feel right. Now,
1:32:51let's take away the requirements of
1:32:54food, shelter, clothing for which when
1:32:56those are your essential requirements,
1:32:57you don't have the luxury to quit or
1:33:00luxury to switch gear sometimes, right?
1:33:02Sometimes those become so important that
1:33:04you don't have the chance to say I'm
1:33:05quitting this and doing something else.
1:33:07But if you repeatedly feel this way,
1:33:10>> you're feeling that you're stuck in a
1:33:11rut and this is not where you should be.
1:33:14Then it's probably your system telling
1:33:16you that this may not be the right fit,
1:33:18either the right fit of a job or the
1:33:19right fit of a situation or the right
1:33:21fit of a relationship even. It can be
1:33:23all of these situations that can make
1:33:25you feel like this doesn't feel right.
1:33:27Our body has any number of ways of
1:33:30telling us when we feel even when we are
1:33:32not feeling well your body has a way of
1:33:33telling you I'm my god so I'm going to
1:33:35catch a bug as in you already know
1:33:37you're feeling tired and you're going to
1:33:38fall sick
1:33:39>> so I think these are signals that your
1:33:42body gives you um some of them are worth
1:33:44responding to some of them are are not
1:33:46worth responding to let's say you have a
1:33:48situation where food on the table is
1:33:49vital you can or don't have the luxury
1:33:50of responding to this till the next day
1:33:52meal will not come so you have no choice
1:33:54in that moment these are you know it's
1:33:57it's like you can't philosophize when
1:33:58you're when you don't have the
1:34:00opportunity right so from that
1:34:01perspective let's put that aside but
1:34:03otherwise in a 25 35 year old who says
1:34:06let's say roti kapra macakan is largely
1:34:08sorted as in you will survive
1:34:10>> then this is a signal your body is
1:34:12telling you that this is not the right
1:34:14fit of something not being right
1:34:16>> because I I know so many individuals
1:34:18probably some of some of them watching
1:34:20right now is everything in their life is
1:34:22going great
1:34:23>> yes
1:34:23>> okay it's they have a great job or they
1:34:26have great work
1:34:27>> and they have great relationships like
1:34:29with their family. Everything's good.
1:34:31They're they're in shape. They go to
1:34:32exercise. Once they come back home, they
1:34:36still feel like there's something
1:34:37missing. Maybe they don't have a hobby.
1:34:39Maybe they don't have nice work or
1:34:41meaningful. I don't know. They'll find
1:34:43out some way to tell themselves that
1:34:46there is something missing. And it's a
1:34:48large field like there are in fact I
1:34:51would go ahead to an extent and tell you
1:34:53that
1:34:55in last one year if I've met 100 friends
1:34:58of mine 95 of them have been feeling
1:35:02this way and it has nothing to do with
1:35:04their achievement level.
1:35:06>> Yeah because like I said achievement is
1:35:08only going to fill this much of your
1:35:11>> but all 95 like how this entire
1:35:13generation is feeling. I'm surprised. I
1:35:15think part of it
1:35:16>> we can do this like right now outside
1:35:18and people will say that they're missing
1:35:19something.
1:35:19>> I totally get it. It's partly it's
1:35:21because the world that your generation
1:35:25occupies and I consider myself an older
1:35:27generation is a more complex social
1:35:30world. It's a way more complicated
1:35:32social universe than the one we had. Our
1:35:34worlds were narrower, smaller, easier to
1:35:37manage, easier to navigate, and there
1:35:40was much more room for heterogeneity. I
1:35:42like the word heterogeneity because all
1:35:44outcomes are possible. You could live
1:35:46life broadly and
1:35:48>> there was also a much more ability to
1:35:50make peace with one's circumstances and
1:35:52circumstances sometimes are in one's
1:35:54control, sometimes they're not in one's
1:35:56control. I think the present generation
1:35:58feels scales of pressure that are
1:36:01significantly harder than our generation
1:36:04felt. The see we are a mean we try to
1:36:08find meaning in our life or purpose in
1:36:10our life and [laughter] if you don't
1:36:12feel meaning and you don't feel purpose
1:36:13and it comes from many different things
1:36:15but if you don't feel it that can create
1:36:18a massive sense of vacuum right and it's
1:36:22not obvious what is going to make
1:36:23meaning and what is going to make
1:36:24purpose it's very individual and for
1:36:27each person where their sense of meaning
1:36:28and purpose will come from is very very
1:36:30different one of my all-time favorite
1:36:33books is Victor Frankl's is a man's
1:36:35search for meaning. Alltime favorite,
1:36:37right? Because it tells you when
1:36:39everything is stripped away and that is
1:36:40literally what happened in the Holocaust
1:36:42for him. Everything was stripped away.
1:36:44Where do you find meaning when
1:36:45everything is gone? When everything has
1:36:47been removed. It's a very profound book.
1:36:49But in a sense, it's coming back to the
1:36:51deep existential questions that people
1:36:54like to shove underneath a carpet
1:36:56because life and its productivity will
1:36:58go on. But the existential questions as
1:37:00a species we have always grappled with
1:37:03and you can only shove them under the
1:37:05carpet to a certain degree and extent at
1:37:07some point they do come up
1:37:10>> and so it's like if the [clears throat]
1:37:13lack of meaning in the things that you
1:37:15do or I would rather say lack of
1:37:18intentional meaning in things that you
1:37:22do is causing you to feel that there's
1:37:24something missing. There's another thing
1:37:27which our generation does a lot and it's
1:37:29probably have become one of the biggest
1:37:31problems that we are going through at
1:37:32this point. Like right now every single
1:37:36person who's watching this
1:37:39must have checked their phone 20 times
1:37:41even during the conversation before
1:37:44after it also they're going to scroll
1:37:46through it maybe 225 times in the day
1:37:49and yet when they go to bed they're
1:37:52going to regret it. They're going to
1:37:55regret they scrolled. Yes. They're going
1:37:57to regret the fact that they had to
1:37:59check their phones probably 150 times a
1:38:01day and
1:38:04and they do do the same thing again
1:38:06tomorrow.
1:38:06>> Mhm.
1:38:07>> So tomorrow they'll say they'll tell
1:38:08themselves that
1:38:09>> I don't want to use my phone this much,
1:38:11but they'll end up using it again.
1:38:13>> And at night when they are with their
1:38:15phone, they're like, "Okay, tonight I'm
1:38:17not going to use it. 5 minutes in, 20
1:38:19minutes in, 30 minutes in." And then
1:38:21when they're putting it, they're still
1:38:22going to regret and they're going to
1:38:23feel sad about it. What's happening to
1:38:26my willpower that I tell myself that I'm
1:38:29going to put that phone and not touch it
1:38:31and yet I go there and touch it again
1:38:33and again.
1:38:34>> Is this something in my brain or
1:38:36willpower? Like what is going on?
1:38:37>> It's not even that. It's your habit
1:38:38formation. It's habits. Like our brain
1:38:41also forms habits. Habits are good. Some
1:38:43habits are very good. They're vital.
1:38:45>> Your brain is designed to form habits.
1:38:47it in fact many habits help you
1:38:50>> okay
1:38:50>> to get to whatever goal you want to
1:38:53>> but like I told you the habits also
1:38:55involve that same basil ganglia dopamine
1:38:58pathway circuit and it's the same
1:39:00circuit that's involved in habit
1:39:02formation the underlying part of that
1:39:03circuit is involved in addiction and
1:39:05motivation and reward okay so habits
1:39:07form many times because they're
1:39:09rewarding some of them are horrible like
1:39:11there are people who will take out one
1:39:12hair and pull it out while they're
1:39:13studying and then they end up with one
1:39:15bald patch in the middle of the head
1:39:16because they literally literally pulled
1:39:17out all the hair from that one spot, but
1:39:19it's a habit that they're finding hard
1:39:21to break. Much the same way
1:39:25is a habit
1:39:26>> and it's a reinforced habit because it's
1:39:28also giving you a dopamine hit, right?
1:39:30One, it gives you a social reward many
1:39:34times. It can also give you social
1:39:35punishment, but let's say the social
1:39:37reward is a larger fraction than the
1:39:39social punishment. Uh because you're
1:39:42getting that social reward of a sense of
1:39:44intimacy, a sense of connection to
1:39:47something. You're following someone. You
1:39:49have an intimate understanding of their
1:39:51lives which you should not have if you
1:39:53were not a part of their life
1:39:54>> because it's now publicly available.
1:39:58You follow, then you get interested,
1:40:00then you follow even more. Then you want
1:40:01to know even more. And then you have
1:40:03this illusion of intimacy that has now
1:40:05been created. It's also rewarding that
1:40:08same dopamine reward circuit, that same
1:40:12pathway. It's the same circuit that gets
1:40:13activated by gambling. So, it's not as
1:40:15though that pathway is only activated by
1:40:17alcohol, heroin, nicotine, and sugar.
1:40:20It's activated by gambling. It's also
1:40:22activated by this kind of inviterate
1:40:25addiction to social media, right? So,
1:40:27it's the same thing. And what do you say
1:40:29when you say this is the last time I'm
1:40:31going to smoke? It's the same breaking
1:40:33of a habit, right? Why do they always
1:40:35say once an addict always an addict or a
1:40:38recovering addict? They're saying that
1:40:39because you are a recovering addict.
1:40:41You're consciously breaking a habit. But
1:40:43it's not an easy habit to break. Much
1:40:46the same way this is also not an easy
1:40:48it's an easier habit than nicotine and
1:40:50alcohol. So let's be clear about that.
1:40:51It's an easier habit in some ways than
1:40:53gambling. And the number of people
1:40:54playing poker now with like large
1:40:56amounts of money is not small, right? So
1:40:59gambling is clearly an addiction. But
1:41:01social media while on the scale may not
1:41:04activate the circuit to the same extent
1:41:06is in the same family.
1:41:08>> Okay,
1:41:08>> it's in the so breaking that habit is
1:41:10hard.
1:41:12>> But what is the exact mechanism which is
1:41:14defeating my willpower because I want to
1:41:16quit. A lot of people say that they want
1:41:18to quit.
1:41:19>> It's the same thing that's defeating
1:41:20your willpower when you find it hard to
1:41:22quit smoking. It's the same thing that's
1:41:23defeating your willpower when you decide
1:41:25this is the last drink I have. Even
1:41:26though you're an alcoholic and you know
1:41:28it's ruining your liver, you still
1:41:30can't, right? It's not because it's a
1:41:32moral failing in your you have decided
1:41:34I'm not going to do this but that is
1:41:37hard to override the circuit. So let me
1:41:39put a
1:41:39>> and what is that?
1:41:40>> I'll give you a sense of it. So this
1:41:42pathway which goes from the VTA to the
1:41:44nucleus circumbance produces dopamine.
1:41:46Okay. So dopamine comes out from the VTA
1:41:48is dumped out on the nucleus. The level
1:41:51of dopamine that happens with a natural
1:41:53reward and I will give you food, sex,
1:41:56all social interaction are all natural
1:41:59rewards. they produce a certain amount
1:42:00of dopamine. This is the range where you
1:42:02will be with something like cocaine and
1:42:04heroin. This is the range you will be in
1:42:05with something with alcohol and nicotine
1:42:07and this is the range you will be with
1:42:08gambling itself. You're in a factor
1:42:11difference. Now once you get used to
1:42:13that level, this level ceases to be
1:42:17pleasurable in the same way because
1:42:19you're now gain has been adjusted to
1:42:21some extremely high level.
1:42:23This is one of the hard things it is to
1:42:25take yourself and wean yourself off
1:42:27that. And the relapse rates are very
1:42:29very high. Much the same way you can
1:42:31have a relapse rate for this also. You
1:42:33can say I'm going to block my phone for
1:42:35one week. I'll not touch it. You might
1:42:37get antsy and literally jittery and want
1:42:40to use your phone. You could try that.
1:42:42But then over a period of time, you will
1:42:44find yourself going back to it. You
1:42:45slide back into that old habit because
1:42:48it is providing a hit. It's providing a
1:42:51certain degree of a reward and in that
1:42:54sense it's pleasurable.
1:42:56So our brain would find it hard to give
1:42:59up repetitive activities that provide a
1:43:02certain degree of pleasure.
1:43:04>> You control that by using your cortices
1:43:08in particular your prefrontal cortex.
1:43:10It's this part of your brain that does
1:43:12the decision making that says I am not
1:43:15going to doom scroll in the middle of
1:43:17the night. That's the part of your
1:43:19circuit that's telling you I'm
1:43:20overriding this. Now, how well that
1:43:23circuit is working, how good. So, this
1:43:25is variable. Not every person is going
1:43:27to be like impossible to break the
1:43:29habit.
1:43:30>> But unless you train that circuit early
1:43:32on to postpone gratification,
1:43:36>> to postpone e fast and quick rewards,
1:43:39continuous addiction to fast and quick
1:43:41rewards.
1:43:43It's going to be hard to be able to
1:43:44postpone gratification. There was a
1:43:46reason why in the old days they made you
1:43:48do certain exercises of postponing
1:43:51gratification.
1:43:53Fasting for example, not an easy thing
1:43:55for most people to do.
1:43:56>> Yeah,
1:43:56>> not an easy thing. If you have to fast
1:43:58for 24 hours is not an easy thing.
1:44:00You'll thirst, hunger, ABCD
1:44:03requirements, right? But when you fast
1:44:06for a few hours, it's more not about the
1:44:08fasting. It's more about do you have the
1:44:10mental willpower to do that fast? It's
1:44:13training your brain. You're just
1:44:15training your brain to say I can go
1:44:16without food for the next 12 hours. And
1:44:19most cases in 12 hours unless you have a
1:44:21serious underlying health condition, 12
1:44:23hours of fasting is not it's doable,
1:44:25right? It's doable.
1:44:27>> It was a training exercise for the brain
1:44:30in a sense.
1:44:31>> We don't have too many training
1:44:33exercises for the brain that allow us to
1:44:35postpone gratification.
1:44:38So it's like a muscle that you need to
1:44:41grow in a sense. When you go to the gym
1:44:43and do an exercise, you're growing a
1:44:45muscle. Much the same way, if you're
1:44:46training your brain to do certain
1:44:48things, you need to do them repeatedly.
1:44:50>> So tell me top three exercises which I
1:44:53can do to improve my willpower.
1:44:57I think one of the things that you can
1:44:59do is tell yourself that there will you
1:45:01take a task and if that task is has a
1:45:04little bit of a challenge and it
1:45:05requires you to complete it and I give
1:45:07you a challenge which is a hard one like
1:45:09one of the challenges for the brain
1:45:11which is hard to do is learning a new
1:45:12language
1:45:14>> most people will quit
1:45:16very quickly because it's a hard ask
1:45:19>> been there done that
1:45:20>> very hard to learn a new language but
1:45:22it's a skill set that will demand a
1:45:25certain amount ount of discipline from
1:45:26your brain. The second one is learning a
1:45:28new instrument like learning a musical
1:45:30instrument. Again, hard ask because you
1:45:33will suck at it in the beginning. You
1:45:35will not produce anything. It'll sound
1:45:36like a you know a cat that is being
1:45:38killed or something. But if you do this
1:45:40repeatedly, it builds. So it's
1:45:42essentially discipline requiring
1:45:44activities that are the things that help
1:45:47with will talk. Things that force you to
1:45:50do something which you don't really love
1:45:51to do but you're doing it to get to a
1:45:53certain goal are great ways of driving
1:45:57up your willpower because they're
1:45:59basically m teaching you the discipline
1:46:00of postponing gratification. You're not
1:46:02going to get a reward right away. You're
1:46:04still doing it, right? You're still
1:46:05telling yourself I will go and study for
1:46:06that one hour, learn the language, do
1:46:09whatever it is. But it's pushing your
1:46:11brain to be more plastic. Willpower is
1:46:14what it's essentially saying. Can I
1:46:15override a circuit that is so dependent
1:46:19on this cue by using surely my mind to
1:46:22say I'm not going to do this?
1:46:25>> But is there any other one more exercise
1:46:27which can be like easier thing to do?
1:46:29[laughter]
1:46:30>> Okay. So not learning a new
1:46:32>> language,
1:46:32>> language, learning a new instrument that
1:46:34can be two. That's the third.
1:46:36>> I think learning anything new which is
1:46:38hard for you. M
1:46:40>> it needs hard.
1:46:41>> It cannot be easy
1:46:43>> because this is not easy. No.
1:46:45>> So you're training your brain to take on
1:46:47harder tasks, tasks that require a
1:46:50little bit of a demand. In any case,
1:46:53that is singularly the best thing you
1:46:55can do for your brain. Pushing your
1:46:57brain to learn new things and try new
1:46:59things is the best way we know currently
1:47:02of getting the brain to work much more
1:47:05optimally. And also that helps
1:47:07significantly with the aging associated
1:47:10degenerative changes that kick in post
1:47:133540 right everything is going into
1:47:16decline after that. So the best way we
1:47:19know currently from everything that we
1:47:21understand is using our brain for harder
1:47:23tasks not for simple tasks.
1:47:25>> Interesting. So
1:47:28would you say because so I read I have
1:47:30this habit that
1:47:33even if I'm not reading or learning
1:47:36something today which I mostly make up a
1:47:38point that at least 30 minutes or 1 hour
1:47:40I I'll read something or learn something
1:47:42new but on the days when I'm absolutely
1:47:44tired or not feeling like I'll make a
1:47:48point that I will at least learn one new
1:47:50word. So I have this dictionary right
1:47:51next to my bed and I'll open randomly
1:47:54and read some word like I will make it a
1:47:56point. So does that does doing that on
1:47:59an everyday basis actually is improving
1:48:01my willpower just that
1:48:03>> yeah because it's an ask and it's a task
1:48:05and you've set yourself that and you
1:48:07telling your whole
1:48:08>> but it's just one word
1:48:08>> but you're holding yourself accountable.
1:48:10>> It's the accountability also right it's
1:48:13if it's it is one word now the thing is
1:48:15if you learn that one word and never use
1:48:16it ever again in your life then it's not
1:48:18much value. But you learn a word and
1:48:20then you say, "How do I employ that word
1:48:22in my vocabulary? How do I utilize this?
1:48:24How do I put this into usage when you're
1:48:27using that word and that actually is is
1:48:30an ask? It's a smaller ask than learning
1:48:32a language or whatever. But it's a good
1:48:35ask. Every every building block step is
1:48:38a way in that direction. It's it's like
1:48:41if you had to play some game on on, you
1:48:45know, on your phone. Sudoku is a good
1:48:47game to play for a reason because it
1:48:49requires you to do a little bit of
1:48:51analytic thought right there. Crosswords
1:48:54are great ways to stretch your brain a
1:48:56little bit. So there are there's no
1:48:58question there are games on things which
1:49:00are going to push you a little bit more
1:49:02than Candy Crush, right? So no harm. If
1:49:06you're going to have to be on that
1:49:08object, then pick something that
1:49:09stretches
1:49:11>> a little bit, right? There's this app
1:49:13that was actually set up by these guys
1:49:15at um in California a bunch of
1:49:17neuroscientists called Lumosity but they
1:49:19did it for this reason to see that okay
1:49:21now if people are anywhere going to be
1:49:22on their phone right now you can't stop
1:49:24them then on the phone can we give them
1:49:26something that is like a neuroscience
1:49:28gaming ask which forces your brain to
1:49:31utilize things like set shifting you
1:49:35know rapid rapid quick adjustment of the
1:49:38brain which is a training exercise. Can
1:49:41you put the brain through this? If
1:49:43nothing else, at least you will push
1:49:44your brain to being slightly more
1:49:46effective at certain tasks.
1:49:48>> Interesting. What's the name of that?
1:49:49>> It's called Lumosity.
1:49:50>> Lumosity.
1:49:50>> It was generated by a bunch of
1:49:52neuroscientists. But they did this for
1:49:54this reason because like people are
1:49:55anyway on their phone. We are not going
1:49:56to be able to get them to a book or you
1:49:58know out into nature very easily.
1:50:01>> If they're there, how do we utilize this
1:50:03time?
1:50:03>> Yeah. I found out about these concepts
1:50:07like couple of years ago. The concept
1:50:09called neurobics. Mhm.
1:50:11>> And I found it very fascinating just
1:50:13like doing little things.
1:50:15>> Exercising your brain.
1:50:16>> Exactly. Like just doing little things
1:50:18which are not my general way of doing
1:50:20things. It's
1:50:21>> it's great. Like I think it's been 2
1:50:23years that now I've been doing like so
1:50:26morning I do brush with my right. I'm
1:50:28right-handed. Evening I do it like from
1:50:30the left hand. Then now I was like I
1:50:32want to add another layer.
1:50:34>> So in my 45 minute of walking, 10
1:50:37minutes I do back walk. That's actually
1:50:39very interesting.
1:50:40>> So like I try to find some way
1:50:41>> totally different muscle set than you're
1:50:43used to when you walk forward compared
1:50:45to what you use when you're walking
1:50:46backward.
1:50:48>> So yeah, I mean it's it's certain. So
1:50:49that's procedural, right? So now you'd
1:50:51be using a set of of pathways that are
1:50:54involved in procedural learning, but
1:50:55you're doing it in a very different way
1:50:57and it's training definitely different
1:50:59circuits in your body. M
1:51:00>> so there's the brain like I said is an
1:51:04experience incorporating organ what you
1:51:07so garbage in is garbage out
1:51:09>> there is a reason why we often use that
1:51:12term like if you are really feeding your
1:51:14brain with just absolute nonsense then
1:51:17over time you should not be surprised if
1:51:19the what emerges out is not of very high
1:51:22caliber
1:51:23>> it's an opportunity that's not to say
1:51:24that isn't there isn't room for absolute
1:51:26relaxation and whatever there is but
1:51:29there is room also So for trying to do
1:51:31things which really do enrich your
1:51:34brain, there is room and and it is true.
1:51:36You're using the term neurobix, but
1:51:38basically that's what it is. You're
1:51:39using exercises
1:51:41that stimulate your brain
1:51:43>> and cause it to expand beyond its normal
1:51:46working range.
1:51:48>> So the more you do it, the better you'll
1:51:50get with controlling
1:51:52>> and the more control you have, the
1:51:53better willpower you will have.
1:51:54>> Yeah. And I think doing harder things is
1:51:57the way to do it. Too easy doesn't
1:52:01really give you
1:52:02>> I agree.
1:52:03>> Yeah. The hard things are the ones that
1:52:05push you to say do I can I really now
1:52:07push my push my limits a little.
1:52:09>> Yeah. Like I had severe phone re
1:52:13addiction
1:52:14>> like or not even forget re like just
1:52:16checking notification. there's some even
1:52:18if there's no notification I'll check up
1:52:20like 50 times to see if there's
1:52:21notification or no
1:52:23>> and I think one thing which definitely
1:52:25helps because here I don't have any
1:52:26phone
1:52:27>> so I just switch it off
1:52:29>> but then I found out that after the
1:52:31podcast or before the podcast I would
1:52:33like constantly be on my phone
1:52:35>> so I stopped I started engaging that on
1:52:38my activities which I do every day
1:52:41during those activities I won't use my
1:52:43phone and like slowly now it has become
1:52:46like
1:52:46>> I don't You're setting up setting up
1:52:48rules. Exactly. Like my environment is
1:52:50setting up.
1:52:51>> Like the moment I enter gym,
1:52:53>> I used to be on my phone like all the
1:52:54time, even in the gym. Now my phone is
1:52:56with my trainer. He doesn't give me
1:52:58until the session gets over.
1:52:59>> See, see this is this is good because
1:53:01you're creating rules, but then you have
1:53:03to follow said rules, right? So that's
1:53:04what it is. And sometimes people don't
1:53:06follow rules. You can follow rules and
1:53:08reward yourself. There that's another
1:53:09way of like getting yourself over that
1:53:12initial hump. You set a rule and you say
1:53:14if I have achieved the rule today then I
1:53:16have room for a specific reward. Of
1:53:18course your reward can't be some
1:53:19crackpot like 20 hours of scrolling. It
1:53:21has to be nothing to do with the thing
1:53:23that you're trying to fix. But it can be
1:53:24something very specific. It could be
1:53:26like I will buy myself a new book. I
1:53:29will buy myself something something that
1:53:31you want as a little reward for yourself
1:53:33for having followed that rule in the
1:53:36beginning. Over time the rules will
1:53:38become easier to follow and then you
1:53:40just get better at. So just environment
1:53:43and rules. Okay, there's there's another
1:53:46thing. Okay, because we're talking about
1:53:48phone scrolling. There's one more thing
1:53:51which is very interesting for me to
1:53:52understand is the word which is now I'm
1:53:56going to say is very loosely used these
1:53:59days. It's called anxiety,
1:54:01>> right? It's like
1:54:05>> everybody
1:54:06there are two people there two types of
1:54:08people. Okay. So one is like everybody
1:54:11has anxiety no matter what they're going
1:54:13through they they say that they have
1:54:14anxiety and then there's another set of
1:54:17people who like oh it's just in your
1:54:18head
1:54:18>> correct
1:54:19>> you know so dismissive of it
1:54:20>> yeah so one is dismissive of it other is
1:54:24fulltime every emotion is anxiety so
1:54:26there are two completely different
1:54:27people now it's it has become polarized
1:54:29situation
1:54:30>> so explain me simply like
1:54:33>> what is anxiety and what is anxiety
1:54:35attack where in body is anxiety what do
1:54:37I go through And what is not anxiety?
1:54:40>> Right? So
1:54:42anxiety, so there's fear, right? Which
1:54:45is the underlying basis eventually for
1:54:48why people develop anxiety. Fear is an
1:54:50essential emotion for any species. It
1:54:53teaches you how to survive. It's like
1:54:55the very basic thing of knowing that
1:54:57when you go into a park and there
1:54:59happens to be a tiger loose, you should
1:55:01not be wandering around otherwise you
1:55:03will be tiger, you know, whatever meal
1:55:04of the tiger. So that fear is a genuine
1:55:08fear in response to some survival
1:55:10evoking threat. Anxiety is when there is
1:55:13no obvious threat. You can't see a
1:55:15threat. Nobody else can see a threat.
1:55:18Your body is responding like there is a
1:55:20tiger.
1:55:21>> Okay? So in this room right now, there
1:55:23is no tiger. So you and I should not be
1:55:25having a full-fledged fear response. But
1:55:28if we are anxious, we respond in the
1:55:32same way we would if there was a real
1:55:34big threat in the room. Right? Which
1:55:36means what? My palms will sweat. So I
1:55:38get a galvanic stress response. My mouth
1:55:42will dry. So all the saliva will drive
1:55:44up. My sympathetic nervous system
1:55:46increases which means my heart rate goes
1:55:48up. So I can clearly see a shift in my
1:55:50pulse rate. So it's going up. I can feel
1:55:52palpitations. Sometimes this is a milder
1:55:55end of things. But your body is
1:55:56responding like there is an immediate
1:55:58threat. So your threat perception system
1:56:01and your threat response system is
1:56:03responding inappropriately to the cues.
1:56:07>> That system is vital for your survival.
1:56:10You don't have it, you don't survive.
1:56:12>> But now there is no need for me to freak
1:56:14out in this room. There is no tiger. Why
1:56:16am I responding this way? It's because
1:56:18my body perceives threats which are not
1:56:21overtly obvious to anyone else. But for
1:56:23my body, it feels like a complete
1:56:25threat. So when a person says, "I'm
1:56:28feeling anxious."
1:56:30They're feeling anxious about some event
1:56:33or something which you or I may not
1:56:35agree is an anxietyprovoking event. So
1:56:37all the people who are the ones who are
1:56:39saying, "Why are you feeling anxious?"
1:56:40are the ones who saying, "But what is
1:56:42there to be anxious about this? There's
1:56:43nothing to be anxious about." They're
1:56:45dismissing that threat because it's not
1:56:47an obvious threat
1:56:49>> for that person. And it feels like a
1:56:51profoundly obvious threat
1:56:53right now. You can't deny that it feels
1:56:56like that for the person because if they
1:56:58are actually having a panic attack, they
1:57:00will feel like they're having a heart
1:57:01attack. It's literally as bad as a heart
1:57:05attack, a severe panic attack. Your body
1:57:07is going through literally that feeling
1:57:08of massive catacolamine release. Your
1:57:11heart is literally in your throat. You
1:57:13feel your throat begin to clench. You
1:57:15have full hands sweating. It's a full
1:57:18physiological reaction which will likely
1:57:20get you into the emergency room because
1:57:22you need feel like you're having a heart
1:57:23attack. Then you go in there and the
1:57:25person says but the no cardiac issues.
1:57:27It is a fullfledged panic attack. So
1:57:30your body has reacted like there is a
1:57:32crisis. Now you can't tell that person
1:57:35you imagined it because every parameter
1:57:37shows that they have not imagined it.
1:57:40But there is no obvious threat.
1:57:43Right? So now this becomes a question
1:57:45about how do you and when you get this
1:57:48chronic form of anxiety. It may or may
1:57:50not come with panic attacks. In some
1:57:52cases it may have panic attacks. In some
1:57:54case it just may be chronic anxiety
1:57:56where you chronically are feeling
1:57:58anxious. No panic attack but chronic
1:58:00anxiety about not obvious threats.
1:58:03Obvious threats are easy.
1:58:05>> Someone has had a familiar loss. Someone
1:58:07is going through a real major divorce.
1:58:09Something you can see the thing that is
1:58:11driving the anxiety. no obvious external
1:58:14threat and yet the person is severely
1:58:16anxious.
1:58:18Denying it would not be right because
1:58:20that person feels it. But also the
1:58:22question of now how do you handle
1:58:25imaginary or perceived threats?
1:58:29How do you scale back threats which are
1:58:31not really a crisis to a manageable
1:58:34level? Some of it is medication. So
1:58:37people would give an anti-anxiety
1:58:39treatment and there are plenty but
1:58:40they're not very good ones. They're all
1:58:42symptomatic. They handle the symptoms,
1:58:44but they don't handle the underlying
1:58:46condition.
1:58:48>> Often takes therapy,
1:58:49>> a combination of medication, and the
1:58:52ability to detect what are your triggers
1:58:54to be able to watch for what is
1:58:56happening. But yes, we live in a much
1:58:59more complex world in which perceived
1:59:01threats are much larger than what they
1:59:03were in the past. Partly because we you
1:59:07know our body was beautifully dressed to
1:59:10you know designed to deal with acute
1:59:13stress. It does very well with acute
1:59:15stress. It doesn't do well with chronic
1:59:17social stress. And currently all threats
1:59:20almost 90% of them will fall into the
1:59:22category of chronic social stress.
1:59:26That's the category that is a category
1:59:28that tends to cause these sorts of it's
1:59:31social and it's chronic. It could be
1:59:34something as simple as having a bad
1:59:36relationship with your boss. You walk
1:59:38into work, they've not even said
1:59:40anything to you. Their eyebrow has moved
1:59:43a little bit and there has been a little
1:59:45bit of a displeasure on their face and
1:59:47it has totally thrown your day off, your
1:59:50week off, your month off, and that's all
1:59:52it was. You have not been fired, nothing
1:59:55has happened, but it's such a bad
1:59:57relationship that you feel [snorts] such
2:00:00a sense of impending doom almost. And so
2:00:03yes, you have the full-fledged anxiety
2:00:05reaction
2:00:06>> where in brain it reacts when a boss
2:00:09yells at me and I feel I don't know what
2:00:14I feel but when whenever a boss yells at
2:00:17an employee where do they feel it in the
2:00:18brain and what goes on in the brain?
2:00:20>> Well, one if you're feeling strong
2:00:21stress the first place will be the
2:00:23hypothalamus. This part of the brain the
2:00:25hypothalamus that gets activated as a
2:00:27stress circuit. It activates your
2:00:29pituitary
2:00:30>> which is this organ which releases
2:00:32cortic essentially releases the hormone
2:00:35that will drive releases something
2:00:36called act. Don't worry about the name
2:00:39that goes to your adrenal glands which
2:00:41sit on either side of your kidney and
2:00:42they secrete cortisol. Now cortisol is
2:00:45your stress hormone that goes all over
2:00:47your body. The job of cortisol is
2:00:50actually very clear. It's supposed to
2:00:52shut down your digestion, shut down your
2:00:53reproduction, reorient your glucose to
2:00:56your muscles. And this makes sense
2:00:57because if I had the tiger in front of
2:00:59me, I will have to run away or I would
2:01:00have to hide. I have to do two things
2:01:02which means my glucose cannot be going
2:01:04everywhere. It needs to go to my
2:01:05muscles. I need to get out of here. I
2:01:07need to hide or run away.
2:01:09>> So this system is beautifully
2:01:11evolutionary designed to give you fast
2:01:13quick escape. Fight or flight. Fight is
2:01:16useless with a tiger. So you fight.
2:01:18>> So you escape and that cortisol is vital
2:01:21in that. In addition, you will release
2:01:23from the adrenal glands adrenaline which
2:01:25causes your heart rate to go up,
2:01:27>> causes your full sympathy, your pupils
2:01:29will shift in size. You know, tongue
2:01:32saliva will dry up. All this is good
2:01:34because right now you're not worrying
2:01:35about digestion or production.
2:01:37>> But now imagine this is happening when
2:01:39the boss shouts at you. And if your boss
2:01:41shouts at you every day in the week,
2:01:43every day in the week your body is
2:01:44responding like there is a tiger in the
2:01:46room. Same response, right? But no
2:01:49control over the situation. you can't
2:01:51run away from it. You're stuck with this
2:01:53person. So, you have a fullfledged
2:01:56immune response plus a hormonal response
2:02:00to the extent that your immune there is
2:02:02a reason why we see so many immune
2:02:04reactions, disrupted immune reactions as
2:02:07well because your stress pathways have
2:02:08gone haywire. Now, this individual if
2:02:12they don't get irritable bowel syndrome
2:02:14and they don't get gut dysfunction, it's
2:02:17inevitable. You know, if you keep doing
2:02:19this day in and day out, day in and day
2:02:21out, then your systems are going to be
2:02:22like, "What is going on? My digestion is
2:02:25shut down. My reproductive pathways are
2:02:27shut down. All this is shut down because
2:02:29I'm having this huge fight orflight
2:02:31response to this one individual who I
2:02:33don't have control over." So, either you
2:02:35have to create some boundary and tell
2:02:37the person that I do not appreciate the
2:02:38way you're communicating to me. go to
2:02:40HR, find a way to manage that or find a
2:02:42way to manage your own responses where
2:02:44you don't react that way where you say,
2:02:46"Okay, yeah, he's shouting, but that's
2:02:48his problem. I'm not going to have a
2:02:50full-fledged body reaction to this." So,
2:02:53yes, we are driving our pathways like
2:02:55this. And now imagine that that happens
2:02:57with how many likes you get on social
2:02:59media.
2:03:00>> That is chronic social stress.
2:03:02>> Give me two three examples. So, one was
2:03:04boss.
2:03:04>> One was boss. Another chronic social
2:03:07stress is let's say your world is you're
2:03:10a teenager your world is right now your
2:03:13crew of people who are your age who
2:03:15currently mainly you interact with on
2:03:17whatever Instagram etc etc etc
2:03:20>> you are being socially bullied
2:03:24by the popular kids in the class or in
2:03:27the whatever right you are now being
2:03:29ostracized socially chronically so
2:03:32socially ostracized it's not overt
2:03:34nobody's saying anything, but they're
2:03:36just not including you in anything. And
2:03:38you've been pushed out and pushed out
2:03:39and pushed out till you feel isolated.
2:03:42And let's say you post a picture of
2:03:43yourself or something having a good day.
2:03:46It's your birthday. Some nobody in your
2:03:48classroom likes it.
2:03:51>> That's a social.
2:03:53Yeah,
2:03:54>> that's a social attack. So, someone just
2:03:56basically made you feel bullied on
2:03:58social media that produces the same
2:04:02biological response. you will have the
2:04:04same underlying biochemistry happening
2:04:06in your body. Now, that's happening
2:04:07through for something you can't control.
2:04:09>> Yeah,
2:04:10>> it's a threat that is not in your hands
2:04:12that you have no control over unless you
2:04:14can get yourself out of that situation.
2:04:16Hopefully, find a bunch of people who
2:04:18genuinely care about you and invest in
2:04:20them and forget about these bullies. But
2:04:22that's not easy to tell a teenager to do
2:04:23who's suffering through that, right? You
2:04:25have to first acknowledge what they
2:04:27feel. You have to and that's where I say
2:04:28to naysayers who dismiss someone, don't
2:04:32start with the dismissal cuz you may you
2:04:34have not walked their shoes.
2:04:35>> True.
2:04:35>> Right. You haven't walked their shoes.
2:04:37And before you tell them, oh, why are
2:04:39you even reacting? You're overreacting.
2:04:41Take the time to consider the
2:04:42possibility that for them it's a huge
2:04:44response.
2:04:46Panic attacks get people into the ER for
2:04:49a reason because it literally feels like
2:04:52a heart attack.
2:04:54And can this happen inside a family as
2:04:57well?
2:04:58>> Of course, it can happen.
2:04:58>> Chronic social stress can be caused by
2:05:00family members. How? Give me a
2:05:02situation. Most common situation.
2:05:04>> Most common is emotional abuse and
2:05:05emotional uh invalidation of another
2:05:08individual. Let's say every single day
2:05:11someone is told that you're incapable.
2:05:14You will never achieve anything. Look
2:05:16again, you've disappointed me. Look,
2:05:18this is all you're capable of doing. Why
2:05:21should I expect any better of you? I'm
2:05:22just saying these words, not raised
2:05:24voice, not anything. But if this happens
2:05:2624/7, day in and day out, that's
2:05:28emotional abuse. That's essentially
2:05:30telling and denigrating another person
2:05:32of their inherent identity and
2:05:34chronically attacking them on anything.
2:05:37So that is absolutely a strong stress.
2:05:41So we look at physical abuse and we see
2:05:43it. So we view this as a obvious form of
2:05:46abuse, domestic abuse, but emotional
2:05:49sustained emotional abuse where you
2:05:52denigrate the other person's inherent
2:05:54identity and capability day in and day
2:05:56out is also a form of abuse. And that is
2:05:59a massive social stress. It happens in
2:06:01families all the time. Unfortunately,
2:06:05>> the very people you expect to be your
2:06:08cheerleaders saying you can go achieve
2:06:11everything that you want that you are
2:06:12capable of, you know, climbing to the
2:06:15top of whatever Mount Everest, doing
2:06:17whatever you need to do. Are the people
2:06:18who are telling you you're not capable
2:06:20of doing it? That's that's a hard thing
2:06:23for anybody to swallow. And that is is
2:06:25something that happens early. In
2:06:27particular, those kinds of stresses when
2:06:29they happen to children
2:06:31change their life histories forever. And
2:06:33that's scary. So that first 101 15 years
2:06:36of life, if this happens in that first
2:06:39decade and a half of life, that has very
2:06:42longlasting consequences. In fact, the
2:06:44damaging consequences of that are often
2:06:46across the whole lifespan.
2:06:49>> So does this anxiety like where does it
2:06:52happen? Does it happen inside my body or
2:06:54brain?
2:06:54>> Both. So the
2:06:56>> where does it attack first?
2:06:57>> So the first place you will feel it is
2:06:59actually in your hypothalamus which
2:07:01activates the release. But the other
2:07:03place you'll feel it is in your heart
2:07:05and in your gut. The two places you
2:07:08first feel it and you say my I don't
2:07:09feel okay here. So one of the things
2:07:11that people often feel is that they have
2:07:12to go to the loop because they have to
2:07:14use the restroom because they literally
2:07:16have to take it all out. That's a fear
2:07:18response. That was a classic old fear
2:07:20response which is a sympathetic nervous
2:07:22system getting activated. You dump out
2:07:24everything that is in your digestive
2:07:26tract or you may feel like puking or you
2:07:28may feel like taking it out. Right? So
2:07:30these two things happen. Your heart rate
2:07:31goes up. Your palm starts sweating. Your
2:07:33mouth dries. By then the cortisol has
2:07:36nicely peaked in the first 15 20 minutes
2:07:39and that's going everywhere in your body
2:07:42saying muscles come on get the glucose
2:07:44do but you you have nothing to run away
2:07:46from. You're sitting in your office
2:07:47quietly having this full response but
2:07:50you don't have anything to do with you
2:07:51shut down your reproduction immune
2:07:53system. All your immune cells start
2:07:56surveillance underneath the skin
2:07:57imagining that you will be
2:08:01eaten. So if you were to like if you
2:08:03were really out in the savana or
2:08:05wherever where one tiger was going to
2:08:07come and bite you or a lion was going to
2:08:08come and attack you, you would need to
2:08:10repair the wounds, right? So you send
2:08:11all your immune system into hyper
2:08:13vigilance mode saying let me see if
2:08:15there's a cut or anything anywhere so
2:08:17that I can protect this person.
2:08:19>> No cut.
2:08:20>> The cuts are only like invisible.
2:08:22>> So first is brain then is heart. Why
2:08:24heart? Because the first thing you have
2:08:27to do is get everything to every part of
2:08:29your body. What's going to get the stuff
2:08:31to your body? Even your hormones to get
2:08:32to your body, it's your heart pumps it
2:08:35to every part of your body. Glucose, if
2:08:37you need to get to every part, you need
2:08:38to increase the rate at which the stuff
2:08:40is pumping this information everywhere.
2:08:43So your heart rate going up is the
2:08:44biggest indicator of first indicator of
2:08:47stress. In fact, you can just do that.
2:08:49If you do a small mental ma math test,
2:08:52which is for most people mildly
2:08:53stressful and you just follow your heart
2:08:55rate, you will see a clear bump up.
2:08:58>> Interesting.
2:08:59>> Yeah. Most people, so if you do this
2:09:01tiny experiment, you can take somebody
2:09:03in front of you and you say, I'm going
2:09:04to give you mental math. You have to
2:09:06solve these things. I will throw a
2:09:08question at you in 5 minutes. You have
2:09:09to solve them. I'm just going to watch
2:09:10your heart rate.
2:09:12>> Most people will have a nice unless
2:09:14they're a mathematician who loves doing
2:09:16mental math. you will see this this
2:09:18quick bump up in heart rate and more
2:09:21often than not you will also see a
2:09:22galvanic skin response a mild amount of
2:09:25sweat which is what they're detecting
2:09:27with lie detectors and stuff
2:09:29[clears throat] right that's what you're
2:09:29looking at you're looking at whether
2:09:31galvanic skin response ability to
2:09:33conduct a signal is changed because
2:09:35sweat will be a better conductor
2:09:37>> interesting I didn't know that light
2:09:40detection was
2:09:42>> mostly done through sweat
2:09:43>> it's also done through the basically
2:09:44galvanic skin response to see if you
2:09:46sweat when you're asked a question that
2:09:48you have to then fib.
2:09:50>> Fascinating. Okay. You you touched
2:09:53something where you said uh in a kid
2:09:56when they're growing years, right? That
2:09:58if something like this happens, chronic
2:10:00social stress where they've been
2:10:01negated, they've been told incapable or
2:10:03whatever, childhood trauma, stuff like
2:10:05that, right? There is
2:10:08I was reading about something, right?
2:10:10that
2:10:13when when you go through a certain level
2:10:15of
2:10:18stress or let's say a trauma or some
2:10:22some problematic situation in your
2:10:24childhood
2:10:26there are chances that in your early
2:10:28years of growth let's say 20 25 when
2:10:32your career growth's happening it can
2:10:34actually be adaptive like it can be good
2:10:36for you right
2:10:37>> but then the same things actually become
2:10:40maladapt. Yeah. There's a
2:10:41[clears throat] Yeah. There's no free
2:10:42lunch. Eventually, it catches up with
2:10:44you.
2:10:44>> Exactly. So there at the at the age of
2:10:4640, it becomes maladaptive. Right.
2:10:48>> Explain me this like what is happening
2:10:50that something today that is helping me
2:10:53become better
2:10:54>> is actually going to kill me at the age
2:10:57of 40 or someone who's at 40 or 35
2:11:00>> doesn't know doesn't looks fine and nice
2:11:02but there's something
2:11:04>> catches up. Yeah. So the thing about
2:11:06stress and the thing about cortisol is
2:11:08it's very interesting. It also has a
2:11:11sort of birectional relationship with
2:11:13the brain. So at the lower levels of
2:11:15cortisol like let's say there's a mild
2:11:17stress and mild acute stress and you
2:11:19make a little bit more cortisol. It
2:11:21actually improves your learning. It
2:11:24improves your attention. It improves a
2:11:26bunch of things. Now this is not
2:11:27surprising. Let's say you have to
2:11:29perform for something. A little boost of
2:11:31cortisol that's actually helping you. So
2:11:33there's something called ustress almost
2:11:35like a beneficial mild stress, right?
2:11:38It's in the working range of normal
2:11:40amount of little bit of stress.
2:11:42>> Preparing for an exam, preparing for a
2:11:44public speaking event, preparing for a
2:11:45performance, bit of cortisol leak. So
2:11:48that's the good you stress of things.
2:11:50Then there's a very high cortisol. Very
2:11:53high cortisol sends everything haywire
2:11:55including degradation of memory,
2:11:57hypocample damage, neurons die,
2:11:59dendrites atrophy, lots of damage in the
2:12:01brain. Now what happens in individuals
2:12:04that have had a history of early trauma
2:12:07is that that period of time is actually
2:12:09almost like a prediction device for what
2:12:11your future is likely to be. There's
2:12:14something in the early development. It's
2:12:15a period called critical period. It's
2:12:17almost as though your brain is saying
2:12:18aha. So this is what my world will feel
2:12:21like 20 years down the road. So the
2:12:23experiences that happen in that early
2:12:25window have a disproportionately larger
2:12:28impact on your brain than experiences in
2:12:30the adult brain. Okay.
2:12:31>> So in the young childhood adolescent
2:12:34window, an experience which is negative
2:12:36and a strong series of experiences that
2:12:38are ne negative, you are preparing for
2:12:40the likelihood that more negative
2:12:42experiences are going to come. So your
2:12:44entire HPA system is hyperactive.
2:12:49It's like it's like it's prepared with
2:12:51all alarm bells to go. It's so primed
2:12:54and at the same time the ability to shut
2:12:56off this pathway has gone down
2:12:59>> gone down. So you have this hyperp
2:13:01primed system and the ability to control
2:13:03it has become less. So now this
2:13:05individual has a survival advantage if
2:13:08they were really in the forest with a
2:13:10wild which you can see like it would
2:13:13almost benefit you because you'll be
2:13:14like there's a tiger even before the
2:13:16tiger comes you might be prepared and
2:13:18get out of there. So the system is
2:13:20prepping for the possibility that it has
2:13:22to be hypervigilant.
2:13:24The problem is so there's a beneficial
2:13:27effect of it. It will also give you
2:13:28boost in memory sometimes a little bit
2:13:31better performance in stressful
2:13:32situations. So more often than not when
2:13:34you see people who had early adversity
2:13:37they may handle adult adversity better
2:13:39because they have already had a series
2:13:42of experiences in which their body is
2:13:44prepped to handle stress in adult.
2:13:46>> The problem with this is chronically
2:13:48when you keep doing this to your brain
2:13:50>> over a lifespan your brain is seeing way
2:13:53more cortisol than it should see. M
2:13:55>> it's like bathing the brain with
2:13:57cortisol continuously no matter what
2:13:59happens right so now
2:14:01>> as you age and you hit middle age life
2:14:03your hypocampus start shrinking in
2:14:05volume all your inflammation markers in
2:14:08the periphery have gone haywire so they
2:14:10are much higher than they need to be so
2:14:12your CRP GDF 15 all your interlucans
2:14:15cytoines all high right
2:14:17>> you're basically aging faster
2:14:21now what evolutionarily you've protected
2:14:24the individual through their
2:14:25reproductive years, which is their young
2:14:28adulthood. You've protected them. Then
2:14:30your the body collapses later, collapses
2:14:33later. It's almost a it's like you've
2:14:35done everything you could to adapt, but
2:14:38adaptation is costly.
2:14:42>> So my and this is this is thing. So in
2:14:45almost all my blood tests, everything is
2:14:48great. My cortisol's higher.
2:14:50>> Yeah.
2:14:51>> But I don't feel any stress. I feel
2:14:53normal human being.
2:14:54>> How much higher though?
2:14:55>> Little bit. Not like a lot. Not like a
2:14:57lot. Not off the charts. It's It's
2:14:59there, but it's almost
2:15:00>> every time.
2:15:02>> It's slightly on the higher side.
2:15:03>> It's always on the higher side.
2:15:04>> But also, it matters when they're
2:15:06testing. I mean, whether it's morning or
2:15:07evening and you should just keep an eye
2:15:09on that because morning is when your
2:15:10cortisol peak would be.
2:15:12>> But if let's say 500 people are getting
2:15:14tested and on the benchmark, I'm getting
2:15:16higher. So, it's always higher.
2:15:19>> Yeah. In most
2:15:19>> But I don't feel stressed at all. But in
2:15:21most high performing individuals who are
2:15:25driving themselves inherently at the
2:15:28higher end of their capability, cortisol
2:15:31might be slightly higher. Now the
2:15:33question is what level of cortisol
2:15:35starts mattering and like I said at the
2:15:39lower end of a higher cortisol there's
2:15:41actually some beneficial effects and
2:15:43then it starts catching up on the body
2:15:46over a period of time. I think the thing
2:15:48one can do and this is what people are
2:15:51talking about is which how do you keep
2:15:53your how do you increase your
2:15:54parasympathetic nervous system and
2:15:56reduce your sympathetic tone. So your
2:15:59sympathetic nervous system is your fight
2:16:01or flight system. It's the let me go to
2:16:04war today so I can survive tomorrow.
2:16:06That's your sympathetic nervous system.
2:16:07Your parasympathetic nervous system is
2:16:09your rest and digest system. Right? So
2:16:11these are your two and they're two like
2:16:13literally in continuously working in
2:16:16concert but we spend a lot of time on
2:16:19the sympathetic nervous system because
2:16:21that drive also gives us the adrenaline.
2:16:24It gives us the rush. It also helps us
2:16:26become goal oriented etc. There's value
2:16:28to the sympathetic nervous system. We
2:16:30don't do enough for the parasympathetic
2:16:33at all. Slowing it down is this side
2:16:37right? Slowing down your brain, slowing
2:16:39down your body, slowing down your
2:16:42breath, slowing down everything is not a
2:16:45primary focus, especially in your young
2:16:48adult.
2:16:48>> It's the last thing you think. Even when
2:16:50you're thinking about exercise, it's
2:16:51always cardiovascular.
2:16:53>> It's always how do I increase my
2:16:55cardiovascular output and how do I get
2:16:57my V2 V2 max [laughter] like okay, how
2:17:00am I GOING TO DO THIS? RIGHT. SO, you're
2:17:01so oriented towards
2:17:02>> I feel attacked. Okay.
2:17:05that part of the system getting so much
2:17:07attention. This part is ignored. It's
2:17:10never the focus. So who's sitting and
2:17:12saying let's do shavasan for like half
2:17:14an hour today. It's not a big deal. It's
2:17:16people if I do shavasan for 5 minutes I
2:17:18fall asleep. Nothing wrong with that.
2:17:20But to be able to bring this part of
2:17:24your system
2:17:25into good tune is a great thing. I
2:17:29struggle with it. I also have a
2:17:30hyperympathetic overdrive. My
2:17:31sympathetic nervous system is much
2:17:33higher in function because adrenaline
2:17:36drive they're good things but they come
2:17:38with their costs.
2:17:40>> So so because both of us is like like
2:17:43that our brain is aging faster than
2:17:45others
2:17:45>> possibly to a certain degree but we may
2:17:48also be doing other things to protect it
2:17:50because you're also continuously
2:17:52learning and you're also continuously
2:17:53using your brain to try different things
2:17:55and that's protective. So it's never
2:17:57unfortunately none of this is
2:17:59>> this and this is the automatic
2:18:02because you're compensated by other
2:18:04things. But certainly if somebody was to
2:18:06give you and me advice, they may say why
2:18:08don't you spend in your week at least 2
2:18:11three hours that are focused on your
2:18:13parasympathetic nervous system.
2:18:15>> So, so I my performance coach actually
2:18:18tells me that because my cortisol is
2:18:21high and it's like only on the border,
2:18:22it is actually a good thing. That's
2:18:24probably a thing which is helping you do
2:18:26what you're doing because
2:18:28>> so he works with a lot of other athletes
2:18:30as well.
2:18:31>> So he's like I've seen this across
2:18:34>> it's inevitable. He's like it's your
2:18:36body is being driven but there is room
2:18:38in that
2:18:39>> to work the other pathway so that you
2:18:43can find a quick way even if you have a
2:18:45cortisol. So the thing that a cortisol
2:18:48level doesn't tell you that means your
2:18:49baseline is higher doesn't tell you how
2:18:51quickly you come back to baseline going
2:18:53up and how quickly you come back that's
2:18:54a vital indicator because it's your
2:18:57quick ability to respond and come back
2:18:59to baseline quickly that gets messed up
2:19:02that becomes a problem because you go up
2:19:04and then you just stay up stay up stay
2:19:06up stay and don't come down then the
2:19:07body gets a lot more cortisol than it
2:19:09should be seen.
2:19:10>> Yeah. So he was I'll just I'll I'll tell
2:19:12you the full thing. Right. So he was and
2:19:14he was comparing it comparing mine with
2:19:18someone else and he was explaining me
2:19:19how he used to work with one of the
2:19:21football players and captains right from
2:19:24the part of Europe and I was like he was
2:19:26a world cup winning captain and he
2:19:28tracked there as well. So what they
2:19:30found out was his cortisol was always
2:19:32perpetually high as well and the
2:19:35fascinating thing was not only on the
2:19:37match days which is okay but on the
2:19:39practice day
2:19:40>> also up
2:19:41>> also it was up. So it worked great but
2:19:45then he was explaining me that after
2:19:46winning that one world cup his
2:19:48motivation died. So he couldn't actually
2:19:51like he suddenly broke or something
2:19:53happened where his cortisol and
2:19:55everything was normal. He was much
2:19:56calmer person but everything just
2:19:58collapsed and that that I I found it
2:20:02weird like how somebody who's always
2:20:04been high performing always high stress
2:20:06is high let's go run everything just
2:20:09falls apart. And then I showed this to a
2:20:11neuroscientist and neuroscience. So they
2:20:14gave me the same explanation that you
2:20:16need to learn how to be more calmer or
2:20:18else this certain collapse will come in
2:20:20your life where nothing will motivate
2:20:22you anymore.
2:20:23>> And I was like this is a fair thing. And
2:20:25that gets me to the next question is
2:20:26that
2:20:28>> this happens in day-to-day life as well
2:20:30with a lot of people that suddenly
2:20:34very high functioning individuals
2:20:36>> in their 30s or 40s they suddenly break.
2:20:39They burn out.
2:20:40>> They Why does it happen? They've been
2:20:42high functioning individuals
2:20:44>> because there's a cost. And I think if
2:20:47you've not learned the the there's a
2:20:49biology to this, right? That our systems
2:20:51are meant me meant not to be driven at
2:20:54100% all the time. If you drive a system
2:20:57at 100 any car also driven at 100%, you
2:21:00will have to go and take it back to the
2:21:01mechanic to do some repair etc. We're
2:21:04not giving any time to ourselves for
2:21:06downtime. Genuine downtime where you
2:21:09switch off, you learn how to relax. You
2:21:11give yourself time to for genuine
2:21:15leisure. Genuine leisure. Even our
2:21:17holidays have become about achievements.
2:21:19It's [laughter] like the next tick off
2:21:21this box, right? It can't be that. There
2:21:23has to be room for sitting in a room
2:21:26with a book relaxing or literally
2:21:28quieter activities. There's a reason why
2:21:31people talk about things like knitting
2:21:32and all coming back because it slows the
2:21:34nervous system down like the repetitive
2:21:37action of doing something like painting,
2:21:40pottery, stuff with your hands. Why are
2:21:43there people going towards these as
2:21:44hobbies now? Because it brings your
2:21:46heart rate down. It brings a certain
2:21:49semblance of regulation in and you
2:21:52realize that you can slow things down.
2:21:54Slowing it down, we are on hyperdrive
2:21:57all the time. That's a little dangerous.
2:21:59It does come with its cost because if
2:22:02you are a 24 even when you look at
2:22:04people who are
2:22:06looking at improving their health
2:22:09quality they're also doing it like a
2:22:11task which is like I'm going to have x
2:22:13number of supplements I'm going to do
2:22:15this this is what I'm going to do now I
2:22:16will run this much then I will do this
2:22:18marathon then I will do this then
2:22:20there's no room in this to breathe it's
2:22:22just let's go go go go go go how does
2:22:24this work the system will at some point
2:22:26say I'm done either it will say I'm done
2:22:29and you'll give you a signal and you
2:22:30should listen to the signal or it will
2:22:32say I'm done when you're not listening
2:22:33and then you'll have a collapse.
2:22:34>> So high functioning individuals because
2:22:36they're always on on on run run they
2:22:40will collapse at one point because
2:22:41they're not giving themselves time for
2:22:43leisure. They may. They may. They may.
2:22:46Because if you if you go non-stop with
2:22:49no room for downtime, I don't think any
2:22:52system is designed for that kind of
2:22:54sustained 24/7 productivity efficiency
2:22:57at all costs. It comes with it cost. It
2:23:00may not come with a burnout necessarily.
2:23:01It can come in other ways. It comes out
2:23:03as weird idiosyncrasies
2:23:05>> where you see people who behave and
2:23:08you're thinking why is this person
2:23:09behaving like this? They have lost their
2:23:11mind almost. why they behave or they
2:23:13will be you know really control freaks
2:23:16with other people etc. So it emerges in
2:23:19in aberant behavioral forms. It doesn't
2:23:22always have to result in a burnout but
2:23:24it does emerge.
2:23:25>> Yeah. In behavioral issues almost every
2:23:28high individ high performing individual
2:23:31I know of they've either gone through it
2:23:34or they're going through it and they
2:23:35don't even realize it.
2:23:36>> Yeah. It's a very common side effect of
2:23:39driving yourself 24/7.
2:23:41>> Yeah. like every it's it's almost funny
2:23:44that I always I'm a very reflective
2:23:47person. I reflect a lot, right? And uh
2:23:51every time I meet someone really
2:23:53remarkable and impressive, someone who's
2:23:55built billions of dollars, someone who's
2:23:57achieved gold medals after gold medal,
2:23:59someone who's just done like something
2:24:00remarkable in the world, right? You meet
2:24:02them and if you dig deeper for like 20
2:24:0630 minutes and I tend to do that because
2:24:08of my podcast, right? Of course,
2:24:10>> after that I come back home like this is
2:24:13an abnormal behavior. I have never come
2:24:16back and be like this such a golden
2:24:17human being.
2:24:19>> I'm like I I respect them because
2:24:20they've achieved something and I come
2:24:21back with like this is an abnormal
2:24:23behavior and every one of them has some
2:24:24abnormal behavior.
2:24:26>> It's unfortunately a a side effect of
2:24:29being hyperfocused.
2:24:32I think hyperfocused on onedimensional
2:24:35uni-dimensional thing in life comes with
2:24:37the side effect that it will come with
2:24:39some of these things.
2:24:40>> Interesting.
2:24:41>> Yeah. [clears throat]
2:24:42>> So if I'm hyperfocused there there is
2:24:45some behavior that probably people who
2:24:48are close to me would be facing the cost
2:24:50of
2:24:50>> some aberration for sure because it's
2:24:52>> and I'm not even aware of it.
2:24:53>> Yeah, most often we are not aware of it.
2:24:55We all do it with in some way it shows
2:24:57up in some aberrant form. people
2:25:00tolerate it and largely it falls in the
2:25:01realm of tolerated you know
2:25:03idiosyncrasies and in fact
2:25:04eccentricities which you say indulgently
2:25:07oh this is not bad you know I understand
2:25:09where this is coming but sometimes it's
2:25:12not it results in people behaving really
2:25:15strange so that's where I think there is
2:25:19room for and that's why I was telling
2:25:21you about about this winning
2:25:24[clears throat] versus losing argument
2:25:25which we started with that I don't like
2:25:28the binary I don't like it being two
2:25:30bins only because the risk of two bins
2:25:32only means that everyone who falls in
2:25:34the bin that is not officially
2:25:35considered quote unquote winning is then
2:25:38defined as losing.
2:25:40>> And my worry with that sort of a binary
2:25:42outcome is that it comes with too high a
2:25:44cost on too much of humanity. And we
2:25:46have played into this idea. We played
2:25:48into it as cultures. We played into it
2:25:50as societies. We played into it as the
2:25:52level of individuals. And when we look
2:25:54across time in history, what is a winner
2:25:58and a loser in in large cultural
2:26:00landscape time? I mean one today to
2:26:02somebody's a winner. Tomorrow the same
2:26:03person is a loser. So you know I mean
2:26:05culturally if you look at
2:26:06civilizationally there's no civilization
2:26:09that hasn't gone through these troughs.
2:26:11>> Even individuals go through this all the
2:26:13time. I mean you're never going to be at
2:26:15you know all peak. Yeah.
2:26:17>> Exactly. So given that there has to be
2:26:20room for more diversity and there has to
2:26:22be more room for outcomes and perhaps
2:26:25one has to have reframe that
2:26:27understanding a little bit more broadly
2:26:30because when one does that I think one
2:26:33creates room for multiple outcomes
2:26:38multiple ways of existing in this world.
2:26:41Currently our tendency with people is to
2:26:44expect
2:26:45them to be the best version of
2:26:48themselves as many times as they can and
2:26:51that's a hard ask to sustain in a 70 80
2:26:55year lifespan. Let's say people live 80
2:26:57years it's not going to happen. It's
2:26:58just guaranteed not going to happen like
2:27:01it's a certainty. So now the question is
2:27:03how do you distribute this across at
2:27:05that 70 80
2:27:07>> nice
2:27:08>> how do you distribute it and what do you
2:27:10also prioritize
2:27:12do you the point you made which is how
2:27:14do I learn to be a great friend
2:27:16>> can I make that one of my priorities and
2:27:19one of my not winning bin one of my
2:27:21positive let's make it a positive versus
2:27:23not so positive not even negative you
2:27:26know something which is like something
2:27:27you can invest in
2:27:29>> we very rarely will somebody say that
2:27:32one of my ambitions and goals in life is
2:27:34to be a great friend to someone. That's
2:27:36not doubted as a great goal. Shouldn't
2:27:39it be one of the biggest goals we have?
2:27:42I mean, we were just talking about it.
2:27:43It is really a goal worth aspiring
2:27:46towards.
2:27:46>> True. True.
2:27:47>> But it's not our priority on our current
2:27:50list of achievements.
2:27:53>> Well, here are my last two questions.
2:27:55Okay. One is I didn't touch it and I
2:27:58don't know where I'm going to put it but
2:27:59I really wanted to know there's [snorts]
2:28:02a lot of chatter around the world about
2:28:04psychedelics
2:28:05>> which is so drugs help your brain grow.
2:28:10>> Mhm.
2:28:11>> How?
2:28:12>> Okay. So drugs like life experiences
2:28:15interact with your brain and change your
2:28:17brain.
2:28:18>> Some drugs cause neurons to atrophy,
2:28:21dry, shrink. Some drugs, depending on
2:28:23what receptors they work on, can
2:28:25actually cause neurons to grow out new
2:28:27connections and grow new synapses.
2:28:30That's not very surprising because there
2:28:32are things in your own body,
2:28:34neurochemicals in your own body that can
2:28:35cause neurons to grow. And there are
2:28:37also neurochemicals that cause things to
2:28:39shrink. So if your body can have a
2:28:41cortisol that causes neurons many
2:28:42neurons to shrink and if your body can
2:28:44also have a growth factor that causes
2:28:46neurons to grow much the same way many
2:28:49of these substances several of which are
2:28:51plant derived and from the external
2:28:53world also have the capability of
2:28:55changing the brain both causing damage
2:28:57and promoting repair. So that idea is an
2:29:00old idea. As long as we as human beings
2:29:03have walked on this planet, we have used
2:29:05drugs from plants to treat ourselves,
2:29:08right? Something as simple as an
2:29:10aspirin, which is something that we all
2:29:13think about and take routinely starts
2:29:16with an origin which is a plant derived
2:29:18origin. In India, Ayurveda is inspired
2:29:22by a repository of traditional Indian
2:29:25knowledge that has come from plants,
2:29:27largely from plants, right? So the idea
2:29:31that something that comes from plants
2:29:32can have this. So these are also
2:29:33psychedelics are also molecules that
2:29:35come from either plants or fungi
2:29:38they happen to have the property of
2:29:40modulating a particular serotonin
2:29:42receptor in the brain and associated
2:29:45with that they also increase growth
2:29:47factors and that seems to have something
2:29:49called a psychoplastogenic effect which
2:29:51means that neurons grow new connections
2:29:54make new synapses etc. That may not
2:29:56necessarily always be good. It may come
2:30:00sometimes be good, sometimes not. Right
2:30:02now, traditionally people have used
2:30:04these for thousands of years in the
2:30:06Amazonian forest. The shamans have used
2:30:08them etc. Now we have a rediscovery and
2:30:11a red desire to explore them because we
2:30:14currently have genuinely a mental health
2:30:16crisis in the world. The number of
2:30:19patients who have anxiety disorders,
2:30:21depression, post-traumatic stress
2:30:23disorder is large and growing and the
2:30:26complexity of the world we are creating
2:30:27this is only going to go higher rather
2:30:29than in the other direction. So given
2:30:31that and because most drugs that are
2:30:33currently used anti-depressants etc they
2:30:36work only on 2/3 of the population one/3
2:30:39doesn't even respond to any of the drugs
2:30:41that are there out there. So and they
2:30:43work slowly. So when a patient starts on
2:30:45an anti-depressant, you don't know if
2:30:47it's going to work for at least six 3 to
2:30:496 weeks. So you have a patient, you're
2:30:51giving a drug, you don't know if it's
2:30:52going to work and 6 weeks later you'll
2:30:54find out if it has worked at all.
2:30:55Otherwise, you'll have to switch drugs.
2:30:57So it's a really not a good situation in
2:30:59terms of quality of available
2:31:01medication. So that's why there's been a
2:31:04desire to reinvestigate psychedelics.
2:31:07But we are in a very we're in a delicate
2:31:10juncture right now for two reasons. One,
2:31:12because recreationally these drugs have
2:31:15been abused
2:31:16>> and because they've been recreationally
2:31:18utilized. Uh there are a lots of
2:31:20recreational narratives which are often
2:31:22biased towards the positive without
2:31:24being aware of the complexity of these
2:31:26drugs and their challenges. And because
2:31:28of that that is moving faster. The
2:31:31recreational narrative is moving faster
2:31:33than the careful clinical research
2:31:36associated narrative.
2:31:37>> What kind of drugs you mean? Like give
2:31:38me one or two names. Iwasa, psilocybin
2:31:41from magic mushrooms, LSD from lysurgic
2:31:44acid diathylamide which is a synthetic
2:31:46psychedelic. These drugs have been
2:31:49utilized by for recreational abuse in a
2:31:52sense and that narrative of its quote
2:31:54unquote beneficial effects has moved
2:31:56faster than the clinical research has
2:31:58moved. So now the worry with this is you
2:32:00need to do the careful clinical
2:32:02research. You need to do the
2:32:03pre-clinical research. You need studies
2:32:05on rats, mice, monkeys, humans. You need
2:32:08all of that to understand both the
2:32:11usefulness, the potential harmful side
2:32:14effects, the potential beneficial
2:32:17effects carefully and systematically.
2:32:19You have to study this before you can
2:32:20rush into saying, "Hey, these may be
2:32:22potentially of use. If you don't do this
2:32:25and you rush fast in here, you will have
2:32:27negative reactions because these drugs
2:32:29are there are class of drugs called
2:32:32psychotoimetic drugs which means they
2:32:34produce hallucinations and they produce
2:32:36altered states of consciousness.
2:32:38>> The other thing that you know produces
2:32:40hallucinations are states like
2:32:41schizophrenia.
2:32:43>> Okay. So they are drugs that are that's
2:32:45why they call psychotomimetic. They
2:32:47mimic
2:32:48>> the psychosis like state. You can have
2:32:51negative reactions and you could have a
2:32:53psychotic break. Right? This is a worry.
2:32:55>> You can't do this without carefully
2:32:57doing this.
2:32:58>> And if you take your time to do it
2:32:59carefully, you may even be able to
2:33:01synthesize new drugs that don't have the
2:33:04trip and don't have the psychosis
2:33:05element or the, you know, the
2:33:07psychedelic part, but have the
2:33:08beneficial parts. But you have to take
2:33:10your time. This is a 10, 12 year, 15
2:33:14year investment of time. And part of the
2:33:16problem is because patients want drugs
2:33:19that work and they want them fast. They
2:33:22may be tempted to recreationally try
2:33:25something which may actually have a
2:33:27negative effect.
2:33:28>> So this is why we are at this very
2:33:30delicate juncture where
2:33:32>> it's important to study them. It's
2:33:34important to study them well and it's
2:33:37also equally important to not rush them
2:33:40into the clinic and have a situation
2:33:42where there is a problem. But then a lot
2:33:44of people who are taking let's say LSDs
2:33:46or mushrooms just for recreation and
2:33:50going for a trip they tend to take it
2:33:52and they come out very happy that oh I
2:33:54had a great trip etc etc and then they
2:33:57forget about it and probably 6 months
2:33:58later they do it again right so they're
2:34:00not even like probably addicted to it
2:34:02the way they are addicted to let's say
2:34:04some people would do maybe a weed or
2:34:06cocaine or some other stuff right so
2:34:10it doesn't look like that they're super
2:34:13addictive.
2:34:13>> No, they're not because
2:34:14>> So they're not addictive to so I've not
2:34:16met anyone who's like addicted to
2:34:17>> because they don't hit the mental
2:34:19temental area common pathway in the same
2:34:21way as a cocaine, heroin, nicotine or
2:34:23alcohol. So they're not on that scale
2:34:26addict.
2:34:26>> So let's say LSD and mushrooms are not
2:34:28on that scale but people are taking it
2:34:31without any care without any stuff
2:34:33>> really worry about first of all. What is
2:34:34happening like why majority of them tend
2:34:38to enjoy it even without the even when
2:34:41they take it without care so there's no
2:34:43side effect at least looks like
2:34:44>> is we tend to hear the narratives that
2:34:46are positive more than we hear the
2:34:48narratives that are negative also keep
2:34:50in mind that all of these retreats that
2:34:53give them have a financial interest in
2:34:55your hearing the positive narratives
2:34:56over the negative absolutely so there is
2:34:58a financial interest element here as
2:35:01well because obviously there for them
2:35:02they are making money from this
2:35:05There are negative narratives. Maybe
2:35:07their fraction is smaller, but the
2:35:09negative narratives are genuinely scary
2:35:11as well. And yes, there's no doubt that
2:35:14these molecules can induce states which
2:35:18are fairly powerful. And some of those
2:35:21come also with the beneficial effect of
2:35:24giving you a mood modulatory effect
2:35:26which could actually kick a person out
2:35:28of a state of PTSD or a state of chronic
2:35:31me, you know, major depression.
2:35:34But we cannot go based on anecdotal and
2:35:37right now that's where we are in the
2:35:40narrative recreational space. It's
2:35:41anecdotal. You need to do this carefully
2:35:44and you need to do this with large
2:35:45enough numbers. You need to have it in a
2:35:47cultural context like ours. One of the
2:35:49things that I've been doing is talking
2:35:51to people at Nimhan saying India needs
2:35:52its own policy.
2:35:55We can't not have our own policy of how
2:35:57we're going to do this. We currently
2:35:59they're banned because they're all
2:36:00substance. They're all, you know,
2:36:02schedule one substances, so they are
2:36:03banned. So, anyone accessing it, it's
2:36:05illegal.
2:36:06>> But we need a thought through policy of
2:36:10our own clinical trials. The US has
2:36:12moved fast with their clinical trials.
2:36:13So has Switzerland, so has Australia,
2:36:15Canada, many places across the world. We
2:36:18are yet to take a call on what we are
2:36:20going to do with our own clinical
2:36:22trials. And there is a set setting
2:36:24element where the cultural context will
2:36:26matter. So we have to find a way that it
2:36:29works in our society and culture and see
2:36:32if it's appropriate in our context the
2:36:34same way which we are not doing at the
2:36:36moment
2:36:37>> we are not but my question is only that
2:36:41more anecdotes come or more stories are
2:36:44that people have enjoyed it doing it
2:36:46>> people always
2:36:47>> and it doesn't look like they've gone
2:36:49through any negative
2:36:51>> you know experience
2:36:52>> that's not true though because there are
2:36:54>> so you would argue that there's enough
2:36:56>> there enough
2:36:58concern that I would not especially in
2:37:01individuals that have a family history
2:37:02of either schizophrenia or bipolar
2:37:04disorder. I would say this is
2:37:05contraindicated,
2:37:07>> right? It was absolutely contraindicated
2:37:09because there have been examples where
2:37:11it has caused a psychotic break and
2:37:14people have ended up with a
2:37:15psychosis-like event under the influence
2:37:18of these drugs. So anyone let's say
2:37:20right now listening to this is
2:37:24is hearing stories from their friends
2:37:26that Iaska is one of the best
2:37:28experiences or uh you know they did some
2:37:31mushrooms or they did some I don't know
2:37:34some random psychedelic drug like LSD or
2:37:36stuff like that and they are
2:37:38incentivized or motivated or maybe just
2:37:41lured towards trying it because some of
2:37:43their friends or some story or some
2:37:45social media influencer did it right.
2:37:48What would you tell them?
2:37:49>> I would say no. Plain and simply as
2:37:51simple as that. I would not I mean
2:37:53>> and why because the other side actually
2:37:54gives an explanation that you will reach
2:37:57an altered state and get clarity in life
2:37:58and all that.
2:37:59>> I would I so first I would say that I
2:38:03that that these are molecules that have
2:38:05potent effects on your brain and they
2:38:07don't only have short-lived potent
2:38:09effects they have longived potent
2:38:10effects on your brain.
2:38:12Very often these people are the same
2:38:14people who are worrying about eating
2:38:15organic vegetables and eating healthy
2:38:17food only etc. uh and they are very
2:38:19worried about what they put into their
2:38:20body that but they're not worried about
2:38:22it when it comes to a drug of this scale
2:38:24which has the potent ability to change
2:38:26networks in your brain right so I would
2:38:29say that if [clears throat] it was
2:38:31someone who had clinical depression and
2:38:34they really wanted to and they were not
2:38:37responding to any treatment then I would
2:38:39say see a psychiatrist and see if you
2:38:42can be part of a clinical trial that
2:38:43would be one way to do in India right
2:38:45now that's not a possibility but people
2:38:46abroad are doing
2:38:48anyone else I would say
2:38:50>> a normal human being there's nothing
2:38:52going on
2:38:52>> yeah I would say you know these are
2:38:54really potent drugs they rewire your
2:38:57brain not just for the short term but
2:38:59often for the long term and that
2:39:01direction in which it's exactly going to
2:39:03rewire is not obvious and it's not in
2:39:05your control
2:39:07it's a it's a risk that I'm not sure one
2:39:09should be so willingly signing up for
2:39:12>> so rewiring of brain will happen
2:39:14>> but you don't know if it's going to be
2:39:15negative or positive
2:39:17I don't know which way it will go.
2:39:19>> So rewiring of brain as possible with
2:39:21drugs. You decide which direction.
2:39:24>> I mean it's a it's a scary thought. It's
2:39:27a bit of a Russian roulette in that
2:39:28sense, right? So I would say why are you
2:39:31doing this? I mean you know is it we
2:39:34still far away from fully understanding
2:39:36the long-term consequences of these
2:39:38drugs. Everything that we have looked at
2:39:40indicates long-term effects
2:39:43>> in animals, in humans,
2:39:46longlasting rewiring of circuits,
2:39:49longlasting synaptic changes in neurons.
2:39:52I don't know if I would just be, you
2:39:53know, on a for the pure recreational
2:39:56value of trying something new. I mean,
2:39:58you could try many other things also,
2:40:00right? So, you could try for
2:40:01>> Would you try? Have you tried it?
2:40:02>> I have not. I have zero interest. But
2:40:04I'm like as I
2:40:05>> But because you're so curious about
2:40:06brain,
2:40:07>> have you ever has it not crossed your
2:40:09brain like you should maybe try Iaska?
2:40:12Maybe.
2:40:12>> What has crossed my mind is the
2:40:14following which is that if you can have
2:40:16altered states of consciousness that
2:40:19respond to a molecule like this and
2:40:21inherently your brain has the capability
2:40:23of experiencing altered states of
2:40:25consciousness.
2:40:26>> Yeah. And there are other ways to tap
2:40:28into it and those exercises I find
2:40:30particularly interesting. I've always
2:40:33found meditation an extremely
2:40:35interesting exercise to train your brain
2:40:37with.
2:40:38>> That's my chosen path because I think
2:40:41that there is much more room to direct
2:40:44where you will go then you do it
2:40:46molecularly with an external agent.
2:40:49>> So I would say that there are I mean
2:40:52it's opening your mind to the
2:40:53possibility of what all can happen with
2:40:55your nervous system. I would find other
2:40:57ways to do this. Not
2:40:58>> true
2:40:59>> not the drug. [snorts] For me, this is
2:41:02my altered state of like [laughter]
2:41:04like I love this. I'm on such a
2:41:06different high when every time I'm doing
2:41:07a podcast and conversation.
2:41:09>> I fully understand that and for me Z I
2:41:11mean I work with psychedelics. I work
2:41:13with giving psychedelics to rodents
2:41:14looking at the effects on the brain and
2:41:17I think they are very powerful molecules
2:41:18and they should be studied and
2:41:20potentially they may become relevant in
2:41:22the clinic either them or some
2:41:24downstream that comes from them. So they
2:41:27will move at some stage I think into the
2:41:29clinic but I think for a person who is
2:41:31just a regular human being who has no
2:41:34requirement at that moment for drugs
2:41:35that are treating a psychiatric
2:41:37condition perhaps these are very potent
2:41:39molecules and maybe you want to give
2:41:41them a bit of a wide birth.
2:41:42>> I was you know I was shamed for not
2:41:44doing it once
2:41:45>> really.
2:41:46>> Yeah. So I was in Colombia in Kartahena
2:41:48and I was there for one retreat like a
2:41:50conference sorts and after the
2:41:53conference the third day they had a
2:41:55beach day like that was half day the
2:41:57conference ended and they had like pool
2:41:59party or beach day and they were doing
2:42:00this gratitude practices etc. They made
2:42:03us stand in like four or five groups.
2:42:05Okay. Okay. So, one group, let's say 12
2:42:07people, 14 people group
2:42:10and there were the guy in the middle was
2:42:12an instructor who was apparently this uh
2:42:15>> retreat coach, therapist, whoever like
2:42:18some some healer kind of person, right?
2:42:21>> Was a very charismatic and charming
2:42:23personality by the way
2:42:25>> would hand over like shrooms to
2:42:28everybody with and chocolates which has
2:42:30something mixed in it. M
2:42:32>> they would give it in pairs. Ask people
2:42:34to stand in front of each other and then
2:42:37ask them to do like one two like some
2:42:40exercises like take it then do some
2:42:42exercises tap tap [clears throat] tap
2:42:43like for 5 minutes the whole ritual went
2:42:45in people stood said some gratitude
2:42:48something and then they they all went in
2:42:51water and came back running
2:42:54and then [clears throat] you would see
2:42:56like so many people were completely
2:42:58different who were loud they went shot.
2:43:01So in that I I backed out like I'm not
2:43:04doing it.
2:43:05>> So my partner was the one who was
2:43:07assigned like not my partner but like
2:43:09the one the random person who was
2:43:11supposed to be like who me and that
2:43:14person used was supposed to take Yeah.
2:43:16Like the pair we were supposed to take
2:43:18take it together was trending.
2:43:19>> Yeah.
2:43:20>> And they like shamed me like what why
2:43:22the hell are you here? Why this is like
2:43:24everybody just went in that direction.
2:43:26>> It has a little bit of the risk of
2:43:28becoming a cult. It [clears throat]
2:43:30looked it looked like we're starting a
2:43:31cult.
2:43:32>> This is my worry with it. This is my
2:43:33worry that when you are studying
2:43:35molecules of this nature that if you
2:43:37become cultlike in your view of whatever
2:43:40they do, then you're not giving it the
2:43:42respect that it deserves to find out
2:43:45what its positive negative all effects
2:43:47are. Right? I'm worried about that
2:43:49cultlike aspect of it. This is what
2:43:51worries me. It it looked like they had
2:43:53like a full ritual they were following
2:43:55and then
2:43:56>> the whole party I would see different
2:43:58phases of like 3 days I spent with those
2:44:01guys
2:44:01>> and I would see different personalities
2:44:04>> few were okay
2:44:05>> but few were on a different
2:44:06[clears throat] trip.
2:44:07>> Absolutely.
2:44:08>> Absolutely. They're very potent
2:44:10molecules as
2:44:11>> and I was heavily shamed for 3 days like
2:44:12next two days two more days I was
2:44:14>> I mean I have been asked this question
2:44:16by multiple people and my response was
2:44:18very straightforward. I have no desire
2:44:20to tweak with my nervous system
2:44:22unnecessarily. I I mean, you know, it's
2:44:25a complex enough organ. I have no need
2:44:27to unnecessarily go [laughter] and yeah,
2:44:29tweak with it. Yeah. There's no need.
2:44:30I'm not going and tweaking my nervous
2:44:32system.
2:44:32>> And my in my head, the explanation was I
2:44:35don't drink alcohol because I don't want
2:44:37to get addicted. There's no way on earth
2:44:39I'm doing this.
2:44:41>> I don't drink alcohol either. And my
2:44:43point is precisely that I have no desire
2:44:44to kill. my neurons will die anyway
2:44:47because life is going to kill some
2:44:48[laughter] neurons along. I have no
2:44:50desire to accelerate the process and
2:44:52cause additional neurons to
2:44:54unnecessarily die. There is no desire
2:44:56for that. And you know I what I find
2:44:58interesting though is that these
2:45:00molecules open the possibility of so the
2:45:03somebody did a really nice interesting
2:45:04study recently where they looked at deep
2:45:07breathing and whether the network
2:45:10activity in the brain with deep
2:45:11breathing is similar to what it is with
2:45:13psychedelics and it is. Now that tells
2:45:16you that essentially the network in the
2:45:18brain activity of the network in the
2:45:20brain goes to a particular state but
2:45:22there are many ways to also get to that
2:45:25state. The thing is all those other ways
2:45:27require work
2:45:29>> process right it it's not a fast
2:45:32solution like
2:45:33>> you induce and boom
2:45:34>> and that's transient right that that's
2:45:37transient so swami vivean said this
2:45:39actually someone had asked him saying
2:45:41[snorts] if I can take this drug and I
2:45:43can see god then why do I have to do all
2:45:45these rituals or whatever meditation
2:45:48etc. So his point was actually very
2:45:50interesting. I might might not say it as
2:45:52well as he said it, but what the point
2:45:54was that okay, yes, you may take the
2:45:57drugs and have access to this mystical
2:46:00universe, but when you come back, you'll
2:46:02just be the same person you were, but
2:46:05it's when you do the work, it's the work
2:46:07that transforms you. Yes, you get that
2:46:09access, but it is the work that has
2:46:11transformed you. That process is not
2:46:13something you can eliminate and that is
2:46:15not to be sneezed at. Right? So the
2:46:18meditative work takes work.
2:46:20>> True.
2:46:20>> You have to sit.
2:46:21>> Breath work takes work. Yeah.
2:46:22>> It takes work. You have to sit with it.
2:46:24You can't just say I'll just get
2:46:25wherever you It will take time to get to
2:46:28that location. And that work is worth it
2:46:30for the brain.
2:46:31>> True.
2:46:32>> True. Here's the last question.
2:46:35How does a happy brain look like?
2:46:37[snorts]
2:46:38>> You know, you're asking the hardest
2:46:40question ever for the two reasons. One,
2:46:44we have spent most of our time focusing
2:46:47on how a sad or a fearful or an anxious
2:46:50or an unhappy brain looks in animal
2:46:53models and in humans. We have a much
2:46:56better understanding of which part of
2:46:58the brain produces fear, which part
2:47:00responds to stress, where extinction of
2:47:03fear memories happens, where stress
2:47:05responses are controlled. We have far
2:47:07lesser understanding of which part of
2:47:09the bo brain is involved in the
2:47:11production of joy, contentment,
2:47:14happiness. If you ask me to point out
2:47:17now, show me the part of the brain where
2:47:20contentment
2:47:22or acceptance or resilience or joy
2:47:26reside. I will have I will struggle. And
2:47:28not just I will struggle, most other
2:47:30neuroscientists will struggle because we
2:47:32don't have a location. Much the same way
2:47:33if you tell me where does consciousness
2:47:35reside I will also struggle
2:47:38partly because those are things we still
2:47:40don't understand joy and happiness being
2:47:42an absolutely good example the closest
2:47:46we're coming is we beginning to
2:47:47understand where empathy may be
2:47:49regulated
2:47:50>> where
2:47:50>> so it's in the insula and those parts of
2:47:52the brain the insula is this this area
2:47:55so those emotions were beginning to
2:47:58explore but happiness contentment and
2:48:00joy you're asking the hardest questions.
2:48:03>> So you as a neuroscientist, you're
2:48:05telling me you have no clue how a
2:48:07completely happy brain looks like?
2:48:09>> No, because first of all to study
2:48:11happiness in a rodent is a a hard ask,
2:48:15right? It's a very hard ask. Even to
2:48:17study happiness in a non-human primate
2:48:19is a hard ask. What we do know is some
2:48:22parts of the brain that get activated
2:48:24when you are in a state of feeling
2:48:25happy. But those are many distributed
2:48:28circuits. There's not one location in
2:48:30the brain where you can say ah
2:48:31>> this circuit gets activated you will be
2:48:34happy.
2:48:34>> There are many distributed parts of the
2:48:36brain that are activated when you say
2:48:38you're experiencing joy or experiencing
2:48:41happiness. Happiness and joy are not the
2:48:43same but still
2:48:44>> but we have a much better if you tell me
2:48:46which circuit produces fear I can
2:48:48pinpoint it.
2:48:48>> Yeah you told me already [laughter] it's
2:48:50right there right? If you tell me which
2:48:52part of the brain is involved in fear
2:48:53production or even motivation reward
2:48:55addiction I can point it out.
2:48:58We have disproportionately understood
2:49:01the negative emotions and where they sit
2:49:04and reside in the brain as compared to
2:49:06the positive emotions.
2:49:09>> Wow. I expected a very different answer.
2:49:12>> I wish it was a different answer.
2:49:14>> It's hopefully a motivation for all your
2:49:16podcast viewers. Maybe some amongst your
2:49:19gang of podcast viewers will be future
2:49:21neuroscientists and they'll say how is
2:49:23it that after so many years of studying
2:49:25the brain here's a person who can't
2:49:27answer this question.
2:49:28>> Is it more because of Freud's influence?
2:49:31>> No, it's just a consequence of the fact
2:49:33that negative emotions have been easier
2:49:36to study because they're easier to read
2:49:39out and there's an obvious readout that
2:49:41is evolutionarily conserved
2:49:43>> very strongly. Fear has been
2:49:45evolutionally conserved across species.
2:49:48>> It's easier to study.
2:49:50>> Interesting.
2:49:50>> Joy is a difficult one to study. First
2:49:53of all, it's hard to pinpoint any. Your
2:49:56fear, my fear, the responses are
2:49:57similar. Your joy, my joy are not
2:50:00identical and also very very different.
2:50:02>> Very difficult to figure out.
2:50:05>> Much more distributed, much more
2:50:07variant, much more heterogeneous, not
2:50:09conserved across species the same way.
2:50:13Hard hard question.
2:50:14>> Wow. What an end to the podcast.
2:50:18[laughter]
2:50:19>> Very hard question.
2:50:20>> Wow. But thank you so much for spending
2:50:21time.
2:50:22>> So much fun.
2:50:23>> That was a lot of fun. I thoroughly
2:50:25enjoyed it. That was great fun.
2:50:30>> So yeah, go in there.
2:50:32>> Nice to see you.
2:50:33>> Hi.
2:50:33>> Hi.
2:50:34>> Hello.
2:50:36>> Pleasure meeting you.
2:50:37>> Can we get sanitizers [music] as well?
2:50:40>> Yep. [laughter]
2:50:42Is that the first time you've ever cut a
2:50:44>> Yeah, like first time I've seen a brain.
2:50:46What cut? [laughter]
2:50:48>> You did very well. That was actually a
2:50:49very steady hand. [music]
2:50:50>> It went smooth because I was expecting
2:50:53that I might end up puking.
2:50:55>> Are you serious?
2:50:56>> Ah, like for real. I was not able to
2:50:58take the I told you know my old factory
2:51:00my
2:51:01>> Yeah. You can smell the You can smell
2:51:02it. Yeah. It smells like how hospital
2:51:04smell. It smells
2:51:05>> you have a little bit of that
2:51:07formaldahhide kind of
2:51:09>> little bit of hospital but a little more
2:51:10than that like I don't know what it
2:51:12smells like. Thank you so much
2:51:17number one.
2:51:24Number two, please comment.
2:51:34And number three, episode.
2:51:42I'll see you next time. Until then, keep
2:51:44figuring out. [music]
2:51:53>> [music]
2:51:58[music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Top Brain Scientist: Billionaire Brain, Anxiety & Addictions | Vidita Vaidya | FO518 Raj Shamani by Raj Shamani, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 33,046 words across 5,005 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.