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ToneGodz Webinar: 27.09.2024 — Transcript

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0:00obey your master.
0:04So, hi there. Welcome. Hello. Thank you.
0:08Thanks, everybody, for uh for buying the
0:11master class. I'm going to talk a bit
0:13about it. Um we're at Sweet Silent
0:16Studios right now. Uh I just had a huge
0:19choir here practicing, so uh uh I just
0:22had to finish that before they were
0:25done. Um but we're going to talk about
0:28the master class. Um, we recorded most
0:31of this in the beginning of
0:34August and we actually what what what
0:37it's all about is that we actually
0:40recreated all of the
0:43sounds from drums to bass to
0:47guitars with
0:50the same
0:52mics. almost same gear, but of obviously
0:57not with the same band, but trying to
0:59recreate it as close as possible, so
1:01you'll all get like uh an idea of how we
1:05did everything back in the day. And we
1:07recorded um nine song
1:10bits. We recorded, let me just check
1:13this because I took a screenshot of that
1:16because I can't remember it because I'm
1:18getting old. Uh where the [ __ ] is it?
1:21Oh, it's over there. Never mind. We're
1:23recording three songs from from Riot,
1:25three from Master and three from
1:27Justice. We did a bit of uh Creeping
1:30Death, a bit of For whom the bell toss,
1:32we did a bit of one, we did Officer of
1:34Sorrow, we did we did a lot of good
1:36stuff.
1:38Sanitarium, and uh in the process, we've
1:41been filming
1:42everything from mic placements to choice
1:46of
1:47mics. And we've even done it so that
1:51we've used plugin EQs that are pretty
1:55similar to what I use because not many
1:57people of you have a tried a range desk.
2:00So we've tried to use uh a tried a range
2:04plugin actually the soft one which is
2:07modulated from my desk and
2:10uh so a lot of you should be able to
2:14recreate these sounds pretty accurately.
2:18And uh back in the day, we didn't have
2:21uh any computers or internet or
2:24anything. Uh so I did some pretty
2:27extensive noting notes. So I have notes
2:31on all the EQs, all the mic
2:35settings, and on master puppets and
2:38injustice. I even had
2:41uh written down all the mic uh sorry all
2:45the amp settings on the different amps
2:47we used. So uh what we've done is we've
2:51actually tried to recreate as close as
2:53possible and lo and behold and very
2:56surprising it's actually turned out to
2:58be pretty close to the original material
3:00obviously with other players but it
3:02sounds pretty damn close. All I need to
3:04do now is to do a
3:08mix which is
3:12um a bit difficult since I only mixed
3:16one album which is Right the Lightning
3:18and I mix mixed that on the Trident
3:20Range. Um, Master of Puppets was mixed
3:23by Michael Wagner at Enterprise in Los
3:26Angeles cuz uh the time we had set off
3:29to to record and mix the album, we spent
3:32all that on recording it. So, I simply
3:36didn't have time to mix
3:37it. And because I was booked when they
3:41started recording and justice for all,
3:45um, they had already booked a mixer once
3:47I joined the project. So, uh, so I
3:50didn't mix that either. And I'm very
3:51happy that wasn't me, but you're going
3:54to get that all explained in in the
3:56master class and how that came about. I
3:59I'm telling uh that very
4:01explicitly to this day. I'm not sure
4:04because every time I ask Lars, he
4:06doesn't want to talk about it, but uh I
4:08have uh I have my thoughts and I have a
4:11pretty good idea why it turned out that
4:13way. Uh but it's I mean it's not it's
4:15not a secret what happened. So, but
4:18you'll get that story as well.
4:20And
4:21uh once I'm done mixing it, we're going
4:24to release it and it's going to be in
4:26the week from the 17 7th to the 13th of
4:29October. So in about a month or so, I'm
4:32going to mix it all next week, which
4:35should be fairly easy since it sounds
4:38pretty close to the original
4:40already. And uh then you're going to
4:44have enjoy uh what we've done.
4:47And I'm guessing uh there's a lot of
4:49you.
4:51Uh but I'm guessing we should uh start
4:54with some questions from you guys
4:56because uh now you have me oneon-one and
4:59I'm guessing you all have questions you
5:00want to ask. I would just start out like
5:03so we're going to get access to this
5:05master. You know, I'm the kind of guy
5:07that processes things really slowly. So,
5:09is this something that we will get
5:10access to that we can go back into over
5:12and over again or is this just a
5:14one-on-one sort of watch? No, you have
5:17you have access to it for the rest of
5:19your life as far as I know. Right. Thank
5:21Yeah, it's I mean you can uh run it back
5:25and forth and everything. And I know
5:28because my notes
5:30uh in in in in this project really
5:35important and there's uh I know there's
5:37going to be access to those notes as
5:39well. So you can actually go in and
5:41check what the EQ settings are and stuff
5:44like that. So So I mean once you've
5:46bought it, you more or less own it for
5:49life.
5:51So yeah, it's it's not going to be like
5:53then it's gone.
5:55Yeah, I've been known known to go back
5:56and reference things over and over and
5:58over again just to just to see what I
6:00missed. Yeah, exactly. I I keep I do
6:02that myself. It's Yeah. May I ask a
6:05question? Yeah, sure. So, here I am
6:09wearing an Insafirum shirt. Uh I know on
6:11that album you recorded with Insafarum
6:12you recorded Battery and it sounded very
6:15close to the original.
6:17What did you do in that session to make
6:19it sound like Metallica?
6:21Um, basically we used more or less the
6:24same amps and I used the same recording
6:27techniques and and I mean the notes I'm
6:30talking about are the actual notes I did
6:33when we recorded it. So they're from 84,
6:3586, and
6:3787. So, and these are all the original
6:40notes. I don't have them here. They're
6:41in a in a in a safe somewhere. Uh, I
6:45know that the Danish Rock Museum and
6:47Rock and Roll Hall of Fame are really
6:49keen on getting their hands on them, but
6:50we'll see where they end up. But it is
6:52my handwritten
6:54notes, which is basically um, uh, the
6:58first note is name of the song and a run
7:00through of the whole song structure with
7:03times because everything is done on
7:05tape. So, I know that this is course two
7:08and not course three because you had to
7:10do that back in the day when you didn't
7:12have computers. When you rewind the
7:14tape, you you if you didn't have like
7:16structure that, you know, course 2
7:18starts at 2:35, you could be in course
7:21three and [ __ ] things up. Uh, and
7:24then there's a page with ideas and stuff
7:27that we need to do. And then there's
7:29like two or three pages with amp
7:31settings and EQs for the
7:33recordings. And in in the back of the
7:37notes there are all the lyrics and my EQ
7:40sheets because back in the day we didn't
7:42have computer. We had a pen and pencil.
7:45There was no internet. All the sound
7:47effects that's on there like uh the bell
7:50on for Bells and and the rainstorm on uh
7:55Culu and there's a lot of that. There's
7:56a nuclear bomb at the end of uh fight
7:59fire with fire. They're all from from a
8:02vinyl because that's what we had. I
8:05mean, you it's it's this album called
8:08133 authentic sound effects. And I think
8:11every every studio in the world had that
8:13at the time. And I mean, we're back in '
8:1684, right? So, we're way before internet
8:19and everything. You couldn't just, you
8:20know, go online and find a good bell
8:22sound. That bell is not on that album.
8:25So, I'm guessing we took it from
8:27somewhere else. It could be that it's
8:29the same bell that's on Hell's Bells
8:31with AC/DC, but I don't know. I simply
8:34can't remember where the [ __ ] we got it
8:35from.
8:39Quick question on the master class
8:41that's coming up. Do you guys are you
8:43going to take it from a ProTools
8:44front-end plug-in approach or are you
8:46going to run it through tradition? Yeah,
8:47we're doing it from a pro ProTools front
8:50end approach using uh as neutral as
8:54possible mic preamps.
8:56So, I'm doing the uh master of puppets
8:59and ride the lightning with the soft
9:01tube trident a range EQ uh because
9:04that's modeled from my desk actually
9:07from channel 14 and 15 from my desk and
9:09it's the two channels that James's
9:12guitar went
9:13through. Uh, and I'm doing the uh,
9:17injustice we're doing on a
9:22UAD ne uh, it's what's it called? 81
9:27probably. But I'm I'm telling that
9:30because uh, when we started recording at
9:33uh, one-on-one studios in North
9:35Hollywood, they had an SSLE, which was
9:38the new big thing at the time, and I
9:40seriously hated them. I thought they
9:42sounded like [ __ ] But they had they had
9:44an old KN that they had as modules. So I
9:48just unplugged everything and and ran it
9:50through the KN. So So uh we're using the
9:53NeQs for all of that. The only thing
9:56actually that runs through the the SSL
9:59desk is Jason's bass
10:01guitar. And everybody knows what
10:04happened to that injustice.
10:06Yeah.
10:09So yeah, I got a question. Yeah. Uh um
10:14you know compression, you have a lot of
10:15EQ settings for uh drums and guitar and
10:19I I just wonder when you mix spiky live
10:22recorded drums, how do you like to
10:25compress? Do I get this balanced and
10:27tame? Well, that's that's actually a
10:29really good question cuz uh we didn't
10:32use compressors that much back in the
10:33day cuz we uh we saturated the tape
10:36instead. So, I actually used a Stutus uh
10:41uh A800
10:44uh uh plugin that I've
10:46saturated slightly cuz because back in
10:50the day we I mean we did I had like four
10:52compressors in the studio. That was it.
10:55And they were all used going
10:57in I mean before we recorded. So it was
11:01actually on vocals and guitars and
11:03stuff. And then then I just I mean I
11:06spent a lot of time adjusting tape
11:08machines because everybody says that
11:10analog is great but I'm the kind of guy
11:12that goes no analog [ __ ] unless you've
11:15adjusted it right. because uh analog is
11:19only good if you spend like an hour each
11:21morning adjusting your adjusting your 24
11:23track because otherwise you you never
11:26know what you get back. So I did that a
11:29lot and also experimented with with
11:31recording levels and stuff and you could
11:33actually turn up the record level and
11:36turn down the playback so you didn't
11:38distort the circuits in the actual all
11:41the electronics in the tape machine. So
11:43we would actually sometimes record 40B
11:45louder on tape and and would just take
11:47the playback down. We did a lot of that
11:49stuff and that actually uh uh caused a
11:53lot of saturation on tape which um which
11:58is part of a lot of the sounds. Yeah. So
12:01so I actually used a UAD Studio plugin
12:05to to emulate that when when we did this
12:07and we actually got it pretty close.
12:10So, so I'm not using any
12:13compressors at all except for the lead
12:15volt one. Interesting.
12:19Lemming, I have a question if you can
12:21hear me. Yeah, I can. Okay. Um, so now
12:24we have all the, you know, with ProTools
12:27and any kind of DAW, we have the option
12:29or the I guess the technology to slow
12:32down uh a tempo of a song without
12:35changing the pitch. Um, so while we're
12:38on the discussion of tape machines, um,
12:40I know this is a kind of an odd
12:42question, but as far as getting rhythms
12:44down and, you know, especially fast 200
12:47plus BPM, was there any, uh, especially
12:50the Metallica stuff, was there any
12:51downtuning of the guitars, maybe slowing
12:54down the tape machine to try to uh, get
12:57precise rhythms? Yeah. Yeah. one song
12:59which was uh I think the title track on
13:03Master of
13:04Puppets. It's actually tuned down to 435
13:08hertz and and we recorded it slower and
13:11then mixed it at uh normal speed. Okay.
13:14Thank you. That's that's the only song
13:16we did that on.
13:19Fantastic. Thank you. How much slower
13:21did you record it at?
13:24Uh I have it written down. It's it's it
13:28it I have a Lyric tape machine and it's
13:31at
13:3329.85 in instead of 30 inches per
13:38second. And and I I did that. I what we
13:42did was I took my take, pressed record,
13:45recorded an
13:46AOE, took it down to to the tempo we
13:50wanted it, and then I found out where
13:52that atone tuned at and that was 435
13:57hertz. So we went what, five hertz
14:01down. And then in mixing, I wrote that
14:04they should, you know, record
14:06it. Uh, it should be mixed at this
14:10speed.
14:16Okay. Yeah. I've been killing my right
14:18hand trying to do that on guitar. I've
14:21been killing my right hand.
14:23Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is I've
14:27been seriously James is so lightning
14:30fast, you wouldn't believe it. I mean,
14:33everything everything that's on the
14:35three albums I've done
14:38uh is is played. There's no there's no
14:40fiddling around at all. It's all
14:43played. And uh all the guitars are
14:45played and it's all James. All the
14:47rhythm guitars are James. Kirk doesn't
14:49play a single rhythm guitar. He plays
14:51all the melodies and all the solos, but
14:52he doesn't play a single rhythm guitar.
14:54Not because he's not good, but because
14:57we have James Headfield and it would be
14:58absolutely stupid not to use him to do
15:00the rhythm
15:03guitars. I mean, quick question. Do you
15:05encourage today's musicians, today's
15:07bands to play their songs start to
15:09finish when recording the session as
15:11opposed to copy and paste? And was that
15:13Metallica's theory back in the day?
15:15Probably was, but just out of curiosity.
15:17It was. And yeah, I encourage that.
15:19That's what I hate most about modern
15:22music is that once you're east of the
15:23first course, it's just problem and I
15:25hate
15:27that. So, yeah, I I do. Yeah.
15:31Do you normally Okay. Do you normally do
15:34you normally find out that your first,
15:36second, third takes are your most
15:37genuine, most influential, most
15:39memorable as opposed to take 10 to 15 to
15:4220? It depends on what we're recording.
15:45On guitar solos and anything that's got
15:48like kind of a an improvisation feel, I
15:52always keep the first
15:54take. It's not necessarily the one we
15:57use, but it's always the one that's the
16:00most inspired because that's when you
16:02just play what you've been thinking
16:04about all the time when you've been
16:05hearing the song and already in second
16:08in the in take two, you start thinking
16:10too much. So I always keep the first
16:13take if not for anything then for
16:16inspiration to hey listen this is what
16:19you wanted to
16:20do figure out what it was and [ __ ]
16:24then learn that because because a lot of
16:27times a lot of guitar players want to do
16:29another take because there's a little
16:30fiddly fiddly that they missed and I
16:33mean you know Mrs. Jones in Ohio doesn't
16:36give a [ __ ] So, so you know, it's all
16:38about feel and vibe, right?
16:42Um, have you messed around with
16:44recording um direct like directly input
16:47through like a multi effects pedal and
16:49that compared to recording like mic to
16:52amp like I'm talking more about guitars
16:54and which one do you would you favor
16:56more? Uh, have I recorded through a
17:00multi effect pair pedal and then I was
17:02just like using that as an as an
17:04example. Yeah, like um yeah, doing a
17:06directly input like with guitar instead
17:07of using like a a mic amp setup. I I
17:12almost entirely in my whole career been
17:15using mic amp setups. I think I've done
17:17like a DI uh with with the distortion
17:20pedal once, but that was because the
17:23guitar player normally did that and and
17:25I actually hooked started to hook him up
17:27into an amp, but he couldn't relate to
17:29that.
17:30So, so yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm
17:34a I'm an amp microphone kind of guy.
17:37Okay. Thank you. And and also I'm I'm
17:40I'm I'm from a generation
17:42that because we recorded on tape, we
17:45always wanted the sound that we put on
17:48tape as close to the end result as
17:51possible. So, I always EQ, compress, and
17:55you know, if people want an echo on
17:57there, we record that right
17:59away. And and that's there's two
18:01reasons. One, you don't have to [ __ ]
18:03around that much with it, like adding a
18:05high high end, which would do give a lot
18:08of hiss when you're on on analog. And
18:11and also I find that it's inspiring to
18:14people to play with the sound that
18:16actually ends up on the album instead of
18:18playing to, you know, just a pedal that
18:21sounds almost like and then they have no
18:23idea what the album's going to sound
18:24like. I think the whole idea of reamping
18:27is is uh is ludicrous to me. I don't
18:30understand how you can play to a sound
18:32that's not the real sound that's going
18:34to end up on the album because I find
18:36that once people get their sound, they
18:39they play better. It's also the very
18:41first thing I ask people when I have a
18:44new band in the studio is, "Hey, what's
18:47what is your sound?" And they always go,
18:49"Uh, because debut bands always want to
18:53sound like something else." And I I
18:57don't I want them to sound like
19:00them, right? It's it's it shouldn't
19:03sound like an album I make. It should
19:05sound like their album. So I uh a lot of
19:09people get like kind of uh we just want
19:11to sound like Yana. No, [ __ ] that.
19:13They're they're gone. You know, what do
19:15you sound like? And every person in the
19:18world has their own sound. They just
19:19need to find it. Oh, that's very
19:21philosophical. I'm sorry.
19:26for a minute just because like with
19:29Lightning in particular, but all of the
19:3180s into the Black Album Metallica
19:34sounds like there's so much of like that
19:37amp in the room, but like the Ax EQs at
19:40the end of it really like brings it
19:43together. Yeah. Like where did that come
19:46from? Like when you all were jamming and
19:47it's like no, this is what we need. We
19:49need to do this cut, this crunch, and
19:52like really get that scoop sound. That
19:54was uh that was that was me on m on
19:57master of puppets because we recorded
20:01uh to a long story short. We recorded uh
20:04Ride the Lightning on a borrowed amp
20:07because uh they were on tour in Europe
20:09when they we recorded that and they had
20:11their gear stolen. James had a favorite
20:13amp uh but which was the Marshall but it
20:16was modified and nobody knew what the
20:18modification was. So, I got everybody
20:20that had a Marshall amp in Copenhagen to
20:22bring their amp to the studio and we
20:23kind of checked them out and we found
20:25one that James liked the sound of.
20:30Uh, uh, one of the guitar players, not
20:32Denn the other guy, Hank Sherman from
20:34Merc merciful face says that right the
20:36lightning is played on his 100 watt uh,
20:39Marshall amp. I can't remember. But when
20:43we did ma after we done ride, they came
20:46back and we did master of puppets and
20:48they got the boogie endorsement. So they
20:49came with that and I thought it sounded
20:51like
20:52[ __ ] So once once we worked around it
20:56and got a sound we liked, it was just
20:59missing that one thing and I went, "Hey,
21:01let's plug this EQ in."
21:04And
21:08it's sitting right there cuz I haven't
21:11moved it since we did the master class.
21:14So, it's actually on there when we do
21:16that. So, so uh and and and we had the
21:20amp in the control room. So, I actually
21:22sit in the control room and change the
21:24sound of the speaker in in the in the
21:27recording room. So, that was like it's
21:29one of the best ideas I've ever had. So
21:32because you have total control and also
21:35I mean in in any electronic music it
21:37doesn't matter how the guitar sounds in
21:39the room. It's what comes out of the
21:41speakers that
21:42matters. It's only in jazz music and and
21:46symphony orchestras that you actually
21:47have a reference that it has to sound
21:49like that. I mean any electronic music I
21:52don't give a [ __ ] what it sounds like in
21:54there. It's what it sounds like coming
21:55out of my speakers that that that
21:57matters.
21:59and and that kind of made me do that.
22:02Well, I mean, you described earlier, you
22:04know, I asked the question about uh
22:07taking your tracks from start to finish,
22:08but the recording, let's go to Ride the
22:10Lightning, Master of Puppets. Was James
22:13Lars live sitting there playing all at
22:16the same time as a base? Nope. No. No.
22:20We did uh all four guys and we did a
22:24good take and once we had a good take
22:26where the tempo was good from start to
22:28finish we would patch up drums which was
22:33normally mean that we would keep like
22:35the first minute and then we would redo
22:37everything else.
22:39Uh Fleming
22:42your uh how long reverb do you like to
22:45use on drums? How many second? How long
22:48reverb you like to use on drums? Uh,
22:51seconds.
22:53I don't really like long reverbs on
22:56drums. Uh, the reason why the drums
22:57sounds the way they do on Ride and
22:59Master is because um because they were
23:03recorded in a gigantic warehouse hall,
23:06which we had which we had at the back of
23:07the studio and that had like a pretty
23:09long reverb, but I mean for snares I'm
23:12about a second. That's it. and and but
23:17depending on what you want it to sound
23:18like. I don't have any rules at all.
23:21Also, with amps and speakers, I don't
23:24care. I never actually checked out what
23:26speakers we used when when we recorded.
23:29We had a lot of different cabinets. We
23:31just used the one that the one that
23:33sounded good. And it it's kind of my
23:35philosophy. If it doesn't sound good,
23:38change it. I mean, it doesn't matter if
23:40you move the mic or change the mic or
23:42change the cabinet or change the guitar
23:45or change the amp, whatever. Just make
23:47it sound good before you start
23:49recording. And if it doesn't sound good,
23:51never ever think we're going to fix it
23:53later. I always do it before I start
23:57recording. And that saves me a lot of
24:00time. Is there a typical signal chain
24:02you use for recording the distorted
24:04guitars like an SM57 into Yeah, I use uh
24:09on this particular project I use an SM57
24:12straight into the cone of one speaker.
24:15Then I have an AKG gold tube which was a
24:18replica of a C12 I think that they made
24:21in the 80s and it's in a 44 degree angle
24:26to the edge of the cabinet about 3 feet
24:29a meter
24:30away. And then uh like two three meters
24:33away in the middle of the speaker I have
24:36uh BB BNK which is the same as DPA for
24:40body 06 was which is uh an omni
24:43condenser mic. a a pencil mic that can
24:47handle like 140 degrees and that's the
24:50room mic. So, and these three mics I
24:54would cuz I would have them on my uh on
24:57my on my desk. I would make different
25:01blends of that for the different every
25:03time we dumped a new guitar, I would do
25:05a different blend because all the
25:07guitars on all the albums are recording
25:09on one single track because we only had
25:12had two times 23 tracks to record on.
25:16So, so there all guitars are monoed, but
25:18there's a lot of them. There's like at
25:20least four. I don't think there's any
25:22point during any of the albums that I've
25:25made with Metallica that there's less
25:27than four
25:28guitars except for breaks where there's
25:30only two, but they sound like one
25:32because James is so [ __ ] tight.
25:35So yeah, when you say Yeah. tracks, you
25:37mean like tracks together playing at the
25:39same time, like multi-track. One more
25:42time. I said Oh, sorry. I said, "So,
25:44yeah, when you say like four guitars,
25:46you mean like there's four guitars going
25:49together at once, like it's all recorded
25:51together?" Yeah. Yeah. Two two in each
25:52side. Two James in one side, two Kirk in
25:55the other side. Okay. Thank you. And I
25:59have one question. I'm actually saying
26:00that in the master class. We're showing
26:02you how I layered those guitars.
26:05What guitar use, James?
26:09What? What guitar use, James?
26:12Uh James used his Explorer, but
26:15basically we used whatever there was. I
26:17don't think there's any other four
26:19guitars
26:21that was recorded on the same guitar. I
26:23think we used four different guitars.
26:25Okay, I can explain it quickly. What we
26:27did was once we've gotten the drum track
26:29we wanted, we started doing rhythm
26:32guitars. Normally you would do drums and
26:33bass, but because
26:36uh hard rock, which it was called then,
26:38or or metal or whatever, is is so guitar
26:42riff oriented, I always did drums and
26:44then rhythm guitar. So there wasn't a
26:47bass that had made an interpretation of
26:49the guitar riff. So drums, then the
26:52guitars with the riffs. And we always
26:54started doing one James Headfield part
26:57because they had different parts, James,
26:59James and Kirk. And he would do that on
27:01his main guitar, which was uh uh the
27:04Explorer, I think.
27:07Um and then he would do once he' done
27:10that, he would dot that on one of Kirk's
27:12guitars on Kirk's gear. So James would
27:15be loud in one side and and a double
27:18with Kirk's sounds would be in the other
27:22side weaker. And then we do Kirk's part
27:25on Kirk's guitar and then double that on
27:28another one of James' guitars in the
27:30other side. So there were two James in
27:31one side and two Kirk in the other side.
27:33Okay. Thanks. Yeah. So a question I got
27:37I guess in in regard to recording the
27:39distorted guitar tracks. Um now I was
27:44I'm sure you'll get into it in the
27:46master class, but as far as slaving a
27:48messa into a Marshall, uh when when did
27:51that come apart? And so I'm assuming you
27:54were taking the pre the preamp. Yeah,
27:56the preamp section of the mesa, right?
27:58and putting into a power section of the
28:00Marshall. That was that was because Kirk
28:02played on the ADA.
28:05So he had a Marshall power slave anyway.
28:09And once we've done that a couple of
28:11times, we thought, well, we can [ __ ]
28:13slave that from anything. So that was
28:15why that came about. And that was
28:18basically just, you know, exploring to
28:20see how can we optimize the sounds here.
28:24Yeah. Because when somebody does that,
28:26like if they're slaving a Mesa into a
28:28Marshall, I start to think, what's wrong
28:29with the Mesa Power Section, you know?
28:32Probably nothing. Ex except that, you
28:35know, uh if you have a setup in a studio
28:38and the the setup with the uh Marshall
28:42power amp sounds better than the one
28:45with the Mesa, you would use that
28:48because we would always AB and see what
28:50was best. And as I said before, I I
28:53don't care what's happening. I always
28:55just use what sounds best. What stands
28:58out to me about uh Metallica last two
29:02albums you made with them and and
29:03Inferum is this very crisp, tight sound?
29:06Uh do you just hear that and then you
29:08just start tweaking until you get it?
29:10Yeah. Okay. I would stand in front I
29:14mean when we started out um because we
29:19tried out all these different amps with
29:20James to find a guitar sound. I would
29:22stand in front of the amp and [ __ ]
29:24around with it till I found something I
29:25thought sounded good and then we we
29:28would hear what it sounded like in the
29:29control room and I would just keep
29:31tweaking till I got what I wanted. It's
29:34uh it it's the thing about making metal
29:38is that you have to find the right
29:42crunch because you know distortion is
29:45not distortion. You have to find that
29:47distortion that actually s I mean it's
29:50there are so many different distortions.
29:53Some sound sounds like you throw like a
29:56a packet of nails in a tin bucket and
29:58shake it. I mean it's horrible. And then
30:00there's there are these moments when a
30:03Marshall cap simply goes where where you
30:07can actually you can hear the speaker
30:09subtracting once you you you you let go
30:11of the note. It's absolutely fantastic
30:13when that happens. You can simply you
30:16can you can feel the speaker in your
30:18stomach. It's great. I love it.
30:21Just to get the workflow right. You have
30:22the amp head in the control room and
30:24then you have the cab out and then the
30:26thing so you can crank. Do you wait wait
30:29wait a while for those t tubes to heat
30:31up and what volume are you usually at?
30:33Not that you have to give a specific
30:34number. We're playing pretty loud.
30:36Pretty pretty damn loud. I think we were
30:39uh we got rid of our rodent problem
30:42after we did Metallica because it it we
30:44played pretty loud. It was uh Yeah. I
30:47mean I'm I'm a I'm a big believer in in
30:50in moving air. So when you do a guitar
30:54sound, you should [ __ ] move some air,
30:56which is the reason why Lo's drums was
30:59in that big storage room cuz we had this
31:02huge reverb going on and I had a mic in
31:05each corner and the close mics and and
31:08even though uh Metallica says that that
31:12you know
31:13the the the idea about Master of Puppets
31:18was no
31:19reverb that I mean obviously when you
31:22hear your album, you know, that's not
31:23true. That's because I always used a lot
31:26of room mics and I mixed them into the
31:29sound as we did it. So, they couldn't
31:32they couldn't take it
31:34away. But, I mean, I've heard that they
31:37said that it was all about no reverb and
31:40because I think they um they thought
31:43there was too much reverb on Kill Them
31:45All. I think it's probably stuff like
31:48that. They weren't pleased with Kill
31:49Them All even though it's a killer
31:51album, but I don't think they were
31:52involved in the process and that was one
31:55of the things they wanted with me. They
31:56wanted me to tell them what I was doing
31:59and teach them how to work in a studio
32:01and stuff like that. And uh and and I
32:04did and and they just, you know, like
32:08people have these it's it's like people
32:10saying, "Why don't we record it on
32:11analog tape because they think it sounds
32:13better." doesn't I mean if you don't
32:15adjust your tape recorder it sounds like
32:17[ __ ] Um and
32:21and I think that was probably the reason
32:24why that they they had that thing with
32:26no reverb. That is one of the reasons
32:28why and justice for all is so relatively
32:30dry. It's because the room the drums
32:33were recorded in were not as ambient as
32:36the one we recorded right on master.
32:39[Music]
32:41Oh yeah. So, uh, I have a couple
32:43questions.
32:45Uh, sorry. Uh, I have a couple of
32:47questions. I'm going to try to roll them
32:49all into one. Uh, so I see on the photos
32:53that you have uploaded that there's a
32:55Mesaoogie quad preamp in there. U, what
32:58was that used for? Um, also, do you have
33:02any advice you'd give somebody that's
33:04trying to recreate uh, the Justice
33:05album?
33:07Uh, I'm showing I'm showing how we did
33:09that. So, so I mean if if once you get
33:12hold of the master class, you'll see how
33:14you recreate that. Obviously, it's
33:17difficult to find an AX B&B audio EQ,
33:21but I mean that's that's that's actually
33:24a pretty big part of the sound. I know
33:27somebody makes it as a pedal now, I've
33:29heard. I'm not sure who it is, but uh in
33:32terms of amps and all that, um
33:36I we tried to get the ones we used so I
33:41could recreate the sound the amp
33:44completely. Um whether there had been
33:48anything with any of the tubes in that
33:50amp or the cabs and you know, I mean,
33:54there's so many variables. Just the fact
33:56that it's another guitar player would
33:57change the sound, but
34:00Uh me myself is
34:03actually pretty surprised how damn close
34:07we
34:08are. It's actually I'm I'm like
34:12what? And at some points it even sounds
34:16like the band.
34:18So, so, uh, were those AEX EQs used in
34:22like, um, not in parallel, but, uh, no,
34:26they are onert send loop at the back of
34:28the amp. Okay. So, so on the on the on
34:32the
34:33send, it goes into an uh a
34:38converter actually just a DI that kind
34:41of, you know, boost the because it's
34:44we're on uh we're on low level uh in the
34:47amp. It's it's like guitar level, right?
34:49So, it goes into a DI that boost the
34:51signal so it gets up to line level.
34:53Then, it goes into the uh uh EQ. out of
34:58the EQ, it goes into a reverse one that
35:01that changes the level and the
35:04impedance. So, so it's actually, you
35:07know, you have two plugs. It goes out of
35:09this and then it gets stepped up to to a
35:12line level and then goes out line level
35:14and then it gets stepped down and gets
35:16back into the amp. But you can, of
35:18course, you can always because there are
35:21are fader knobs on these step up and
35:23step down amps, you can obviously
35:26overload
35:28the the drive part of the amp if you
35:31want to. And we we experimented with
35:33that, but we left it more or less kind
35:35of flat. I would just simply pull the
35:37return out and you could hear the
35:39difference between with and
35:41without. And I think we're actually
35:44showing that in in the videos.
35:46Drum mics that you like to use, bass
35:48drum, snare, and toms. Uh
35:51overheads include. We were pretty uh we
35:54were pretty anal about that. We went
35:55back to check pictures and I have notes
35:57on what mics I use used. So on right the
36:01lightning I think we're exclusively
36:03using sure SM57s on the
36:06toms. We're using uh SM57 on the top
36:10snap top and bottom. Uh the the uh the
36:15uh bass drum mics are AKT D12
36:21and uh the overhead mics are uh Noman's
36:26287s and then there's room mics
36:29everywhere on Master Puppets. All the
36:33tom mics have changed. Everything else
36:35is the same, but the tall mics 421s.
36:41Uh, and
36:42then because we checked all the pictures
36:45we could find and the ones that I I
36:47don't have any pictures from from the
36:49ride and the master session because back
36:51in those days, I mean, you didn't take
36:53pictures in the studio because it was
36:55more or less like a boys dressing room.
36:57Uh, nobody was allowed in or out in the
36:59studios back in the day. Nowadays, we we
37:02do all of this [ __ ]
37:04Uh, and Justice was recorded in the
37:07States. So, that's all 421s on the
37:14toms, 57s on the snare, but RE20s on the
37:18bassrums.
37:20Now, what you mention, you mentioned
37:22your room mics. How many room mics did
37:24you use in any? We had four. We had two
37:27in the front. The kit was placed right
37:30next to a double door. So you'd open the
37:33double door back to the storage room,
37:35which was what it was was where people
37:37put their flight cases and [ __ ] once
37:39they they packed their gear out. And we
37:41would place L's drum kit like one two
37:44meters inside the room. So there would
37:47be two in in each side close to the
37:51walls pointing towards the kit. And then
37:53in the very back of the room, it was 10
37:54meters long. So like six meters away in
37:57each corner. two more and all of these
37:59mics were were bounced to a stereo
38:02track.
38:04But on a on that raw recording with the
38:07room mics, does it do you lose punch?
38:09Does it get too many symbols sibilent on
38:12there? Yeah, but I EQ my way out of
38:14that. All right. Yeah. And you can do
38:17that on a Trident EQ, which is super
38:20cool.
38:22Yeah, that that is the big problem with
38:24using a lot of room mics. That's [ __ ]
38:25symbols everywhere.
38:28hate that. Can I ask about mixing? Yeah.
38:32When you balance the faders, how what do
38:35you start with? Like how do you start? I
38:38always I start like I do when I record,
38:40I start from scratch with the bass drum
38:42and the snare and I make those work
38:44together and then I always take the
38:48overheads and make them blend in with
38:51the kick and the snare. I mean, nowadays
38:54I would move them so they're all in
38:56phase and and arrive at the same time.
38:58You couldn't do that back in the day. So
39:00So I'm not going to do that on any of
39:02these, but I do that now. And then I
39:05would get the toms and the high hat in
39:07there because normally it's it's not
39:09often you need the high hat if you have
39:11have a pair of good overheads, but the
39:13overheads in in that I use are mainly
39:16there to get the symbols out. And and
39:18for for metallicus music, the symbols
39:20are pretty important.
39:23And because we didn't have that many
39:26tracks, we I I bounced the toms in
39:28stereo. So it was just going how loud
39:31should they be? And I would often write
39:34the toms so that when he wasn't hitting
39:36them, I would turn them down. I never
39:38erased. People did that back in the day
39:41on analog tape. They would erase between
39:44the toms. I never did that. I hate that.
39:47I actually like the sound of a snare
39:50through the tom
39:51mics, but it it just gets too loud and
39:54and and too sharp. So, I would just take
39:57the faders down a bit when when the toms
40:00weren't hit. And I remember when I got
40:03the knee VR disc, I could actually sit
40:05and do the automation, just push them up
40:07when the toms came and they would nicely
40:10fall back again. Uh, and I and to this
40:13day, I still do that in ProTools. I
40:15never take things all the way
40:18out. Uh, you know, the the the hard
40:21gating thing, I don't understand it. I
40:24like things to blend because I like the
40:26sound of that blend. Once you've gotten
40:29the phase right on all your microphones,
40:31that's actually pretty nice. So, uh, so
40:34it would be b kick, snare, overheads,
40:37toms, and then I would
40:39take probably the bass, all the rhythm
40:42guitars, and then I would get a, you
40:44know, a good kick out of that. And [ __ ]
40:47the vocal. Nobody hears the vocal
40:48anyway.
40:50Did you mention what uh mics you're
40:53using? Yeah. On missed it. You missed
40:59it. What do you want to know? Oh, for
41:02the drums, overhead mics. Overheads on
41:05the right, the Lightning, I used U Noman
41:08U87s, which I don't understand because
41:11it's one of the best mics ever made. But
41:13I mean, I apparently use that for
41:15overheads. After that, I would use KM84s
41:19uh Noman's also on the
41:21overheads. And these days, I use
41:24BK406 as overheads or Noyman
41:27KM84s. I think they're called 184 now.
41:30and they don't have the 10 dB pad that
41:32was on the 84, but if you can get hold
41:35of some 84s, they're well worth the
41:38money. So, yeah, for the overhead. Yeah,
41:40I use that. Thanks.
41:44I I never I never used ribbon mics on
41:47any of the Metallica albums.
41:51So, that's that's actually kind of
41:53strange. But you didn't use ribbon mics
41:54in the 80s. Nobody knew what that was.
41:56That was like 50 [ __ ]
42:00What about perform vocal mics with James
42:04singing? What's your go-to on all three
42:06albums on a vocal mic? Uh, they're
42:08actually made on three different mics.
42:10Uh, the first one is, uh, Ride the
42:13Lightning, I think, is made on a Noman
42:17U87. Uh, Master of Puppets is made on a
42:21M49, also Noman tube mic.
42:25and from uh from And justice for all.
42:29And to this day, James sings in a Sure
42:34SM7B. And I don't know why we because
42:37I've used the SM7B on his guitar amp at
42:41times and at one point he just started
42:43singing in it and liked it and we've
42:45used it ever since.
42:48How much of a mixing process do you
42:49think goes in? like how much of the
42:52actual raw sound stays in compared to
42:54like the mixing process?
42:57Uh, a lot of it a lot of the albums I
43:00did I did from uh from back in the day
43:03uh you could just put the faders up and
43:05it sounds almost like the album because
43:07I process a lot on the way in as I said
43:10before. So I want the sound that I
43:12record as close as possible to the sound
43:14I want in the mix. But there's um
43:18onjustice for all and I'm gonna tell
43:20that well a lot of [ __ ] happened during
43:22the mix. But you're gonna have to look
43:24forward to that story because it's just
43:26too
43:28great. Oh, you do any typical treatment
43:31on the mix bus when you were doing the
43:34light? No, no, no, not at all. I had a
43:37compressor on there and I'm trying to
43:40remember whether I used two UR
43:421176s or I used my AEX compeller and I
43:46think I used the compeller on Write the
43:49Lightning and and I would simply start
43:51every mix day by sending a 1k note
43:54through that and making sure that they
43:56compress the same amount and then look
43:58at my output meter and make sure that
44:00left and right was the same. And I would
44:03have uh two faders on the desk that
44:06would adjust the
44:07input to the compressor. So that meant
44:11if I felt I compressed too much, I would
44:12just take the faders down. But that
44:14would also mean that if if I took them
44:17down, I was driving the desk quite a
44:19lot, which it likes. And and
44:22and you I mean, you can get plus 28 out
44:25of each channel. So you you can it can
44:28be pretty damn loud. I mean, I know
44:30there's a lot of gainstaging talk in in
44:32like the DAW community. I mean, I I
44:37never I never think about about
44:39gainstaging because I like distortion. I
44:42mean, I like if you I like there's
44:45obviously some plugs that you can get to
44:47sound really really well if you [ __ ]
44:49with them. And and and and it's the same
44:52thing with analog. It's what Neve does
44:55really well. I mean, if you distor mic
44:57mic preamp, it sounds really, really
44:59good. You just have to know what you're
45:02doing because once you've done it and
45:05recorded it, you can't take it back. And
45:07but I mean, that's my philosophy. I
45:10mean, if you if you want it to sound
45:12like that, record it. Nobody can [ __ ]
45:14with it later. I mean, you've done your
45:16bit. And I talked to Michael Wagner uh
45:21when uh Master of Puppets had 35 year
45:25anniversary. There's a 40-year
45:27anniversary coming up uh next year,
45:30right? We started recording September
45:323rd,
45:3385. So next year, September. That's
45:38that's actually less than a year from
45:39now. Wow. Time's flying. Uh, and he said
45:43it was so easy because he just turn took
45:45the faders up and [ __ ] around with it
45:46and everything sounded good and he was
45:49really happy with and I hadn't seen him
45:52ever until we met 35 years after he
45:54makes that. Are you a big
45:58Are you a big proponent of frequency
46:00slotting uh pan positions? Are you like
46:03Phil Spectre everything down the middle
46:04on the pan position? Are you eqing the
46:07bass drum kick opposite of the bass
46:09guitar to get separation? No. No. Never
46:12ever. Never. And I don't com and I don't
46:15compress the bass drum with the bass. I
46:19I e I I EQ uh the way is to make it
46:24sound good. That's it. I I I've never
46:28done that thing. I do use a lot of low
46:30cards to get rid of unwanted low end
46:33because I don't want a lot of low end
46:34[ __ ] around with my bass drum and
46:36bass sound. But no, I'm I've never done
46:38that. Uh, I pan a lot, but I always have
46:42the lead vocal, the bass, and the bass
46:44drum, and the snare in the
46:46center.
46:47Always. And they're they're just g, you
46:50know, I mean, they they're just going to
46:52have to fit somehow. It it can take a
46:54while, but I I I really I want to spend
46:59the time doing that because it's all
47:02worth it if you ask me. But I know that
47:05a lot of people and then you know that
47:06you just duck the bass a bit when the
47:08bass drums hit and
47:10stuff. I've tried it but it's it doesn't
47:13really fit with my workflow for some
47:15reason. So I've I've never I've I've
47:18never been so pleased with the result
47:20that I've done it
47:22again. So it's kind of strange, but that
47:24that's probably because I'm an old [ __ ]
47:28I mean I have a question regarding I I
47:30know Michael Wagner's name just came up.
47:32He was kind of famous for kind of using
47:34the ADA preamp, you know, his famous
47:36number 45 setting. Yeah. Um, what
47:40applications do you remember using that
47:41ADA for? Was that a Kirk thing or was
47:44that Kirk thing? Yeah, all of Kirk's
47:46solos on uh on Injustice for all uh
47:50through the ADA. And we had an ADA here
47:53when we did the master class, so we're
47:54gonna we're [ __ ] around with that.
47:59But uh the problem is I wrote uh I wrote
48:03preset 101. So that's a preset
48:06restored. So I didn't write all the
48:08settings down, which obviously I should
48:10have done. So we'll try to recreate it
48:13as close as possible. But you know, I
48:15mean once you have like 18 different
48:17parameters you can adjust, it takes a
48:21while. But yeah, we used the ADA. I mean
48:24almost on all the solos on Injustice
48:26Roll is Kurt through the ADA and uh then
48:30most of the time through his Marshall
48:32Power app
48:37and so I have a question I've got a
48:39question about the philosophy of the
48:41band when they came in. I'm one of those
48:43older farts too. I remember listening to
48:46Kill Them All and thinking that was the
48:48stage of metal and then the next thing I
48:50hear is Fight Fire with Fire and I hear
48:53this massive change in tone and
48:55production and what was the philosophy
48:58of the band coming in and the philosophy
49:00of you coming in because really I mean
49:02in my opinion that Ride the Lightning
49:04album changed the stage for everybody.
49:07Now there was a new level that was set.
49:09Was it intentional or was it just you
49:11experimenting with sounds and seeing
49:13what you guys could come up with? It was
49:15intentional. I mean, they they they
49:18loved the music on uh Kill Themole, but
49:21they didn't like the process. And the
49:23reason why they chose me was because
49:25they liked the the sound of the albums
49:27I'd done uh most dominantly the two
49:29albums I did with Rich Blackmore's
49:31Rainbow. And we kind of went from there
49:34and and we were trying to build like
49:36this huge sound. It was it I've always
49:39been a hard rock kind of guy. A Deep
49:41Purple, Uriah Heat, Black Sabbath,
49:43Samplein, all of those bands. I loved
49:45that totally. So, it was right up my my
49:48alley. So, yeah, we experimented a bit,
49:51but because we wanted it to be larger
49:53than life, basically. And I think we
49:56succeeded pretty well. I mean, um, I
49:58heard Kill Them All and because the
50:01first thing actually the first day we we
50:04were in the studio, we listened to Kill
50:05Them All because James liked his guitar
50:07sound and the amp was stolen. So, we
50:09needed to find something that sounded
50:11similar to that. And I remember
50:14listening to it and going that's that's
50:16and thinking it was actually better than
50:18I expected. But I also had this feeling
50:21inside, well, we can do that a lot
50:22better. And I think we did. So, it was
50:26trying to improve on the band's
50:29expression and
50:32uh and technical knowledge. Also,
50:35musically, I've always said that
50:37Metallic, the reason why Metallica uh
50:40was such a success because they always
50:42put the bar higher than they were
50:44actually capable of at the time. So,
50:48they always wanted it to be a little bit
50:49better than they actually were. And the
50:52only way you can get there is by playing
50:54playing till you actually hit that one
50:56take that's right here. And then we keep
50:59that and we go on. And that obviously
51:02you need to spend a lot of time in the
51:05studio which is probably the reason why
51:07they took a year and a half doing the
51:09black album. Right.
51:12So yeah. Right. So how did the bass
51:15factor into that overall tone? I noticed
51:17that if I'm doing heavy distorted
51:19guitars and I do a traditional sort of
51:21low-end bass, it it just it's absorbs
51:24everything where it's almost like if I
51:27really want to get the right crunch
51:29frequency, it's almost like the bass has
51:31to be like on the top end more of a high
51:34mid-rangy bass. So with Cliff's playing
51:37in the W, it seems like that's what
51:39accented crunch sound.
51:42Uh Cliff loved his uh Molly pedals and a
51:47lot of the sound is contributed to that.
51:50And he played his Rigenburgger base
51:52which is
51:54uh he had the rigbacker and I think it
51:57was an area right the black one.
52:00Uh but
52:02the rigger doesn't have a lot of low end
52:04so that fit right in there. But he had a
52:0615inch speaker to compensate for that.
52:10And I know that I had uh one mic on the
52:13uh 15in and one on the 12 in. So he had
52:1612 in and 15inch speakers, but it was
52:18just getting that Cliff's sound. I mean,
52:21Cliff's sound was just fit right in
52:24there with the guitars. I mean, it was
52:26it was probably Cliff's fingers and and
52:30his and and his sound ideas in his head
52:33that made that happen. I I contribute
52:35that a lot to Cliff Burton's uh
52:39uh crazy brain. He was a great great
52:43bass player.
52:47I have a question. Um did James use any
52:52pedal compressor? The CS1 we see on top
52:54of the Boogies, was that used?
52:59I don't think we used any compre
53:01compressor pedals at all.
53:04Not not for recording anyway. Not not
53:07that I recall. I think the only thing we
53:09used pedalwise for recording was was uh
53:14distortion. Um I can't remember us using
53:17any any compressor pedals at all. What
53:21distortion? I mean he could have he
53:22could have. I can't say for sure. I
53:25would just listen to it and say, "No, I
53:27don't like that. Can we do this?" And
53:28you know, I mean, but I'm pretty sure we
53:30didn't use compressor pedal. I can't I'm
53:33I'm I'm I can't be 100% sure about that.
53:36Where did you see that you say? Um I'm a
53:39couple of picss on the internet. We see
53:41his boogie with settings and stuff and
53:43amps and we see a CS one boss on top.
53:48I've seen some articles saying that he
53:49maybe used that in insert. Yeah, I don't
53:52recall that at all. We used a tube
53:55screamer quite a lot which was pretty
53:58new at the time and pretty standard.
54:00Everybody has one. Um, but that that was
54:03about it. I mean, you
54:06know, most of it is actually amp
54:10overload. On the note of the tube
54:12screamer, there's like a same picture of
54:14that where it's like you've got the
54:16circuit out of the box maybe where
54:18there's some experiments that you were
54:19running with that pedal or is that maybe
54:20just a completely different That's a
54:23different completely different thing.
54:25Okay. I I'm I don't [ __ ] around with
54:28electronics. I'd love to, but I I
54:30haven't had, you know, I'm I'm too busy
54:32here recording to to know about
54:35electronics. I have people doing that.
54:38Nice. When you recorded the clean
54:40guitar, like the clean guitar and call
54:42it the Tulu, you remember any any
54:44different things that you did there to
54:46capture a good clean sound like that?
54:48Yeah. I mean, a lot of the clean guitars
54:50are played on a rolling uh a rolling
54:53jazz JC jazz chorus.
54:56I mean, plug into one of those and you
54:58have the sound for for one right there.
55:02It's incredible how how great that
55:03sounds. Just put slight chorus on it. It
55:06just has that sound. You don't even have
55:08to crank it up that much. And we have we
55:11we got one in the
55:13studio. I have one of the 70s and I have
55:16a 30, I think. So, and they s I mean
55:19it's I was like when I heard I was like
55:21that's the sound. That's it. That's what
55:23we did. But on on some of the guitars uh
55:27on on on like Orion and stuff like that,
55:31we used I mean we used everything. I one
55:34of them
55:36is one of the solos is through a orone
55:41speaker and one of the solos is through
55:44a transistor
55:46radio. And we I mean all of this stuff
55:50when I first started out uh in Sweet
55:52Silence way back in
55:551976. Um we had a big Danish band called
55:59Gasoline and they were produced by Roy
56:01Thomas Baker who did all the Good Queen
56:03albums. Uh, and because we had just
56:07built the studios, we had all this uh
56:10building materials lying around and he
56:12would like make small boxes out of uh uh
56:15small out of, you know, kitchen tiles
56:18and [ __ ] and and you know, use, you
56:22know, record a guitar solo through
56:24vacuum cleaner tube, stuff like that.
56:27and and and that kind of inspired me to
56:29to the thing that, you know, there's no
56:33right or wrong here. You just, you know,
56:35trial and error. I mean, if it doesn't
56:37sound That's why I say all the time, if
56:39it doesn't sound right, change it. I
56:41mean, it's so much easier to open your
56:44track and then everything sounds good
56:47than thinking, "Oh, it's this guitar. We
56:48need to fix that. Oh, the bass. Oh, we
56:50need to fix that." You know, do it right
56:53away. I'm a big fan of taking making
56:57decisions when you do it because I also
57:00think that kind of uh contributes people
57:03to play better when they know that this
57:05is going on the album.
57:10What advice would you give to somebody
57:11that's trying to uh master their first
57:14album for the first time?
57:17Oh, be careful.
57:20Uh when I master, I always have I always
57:24uh level check the
57:27headroom. So if I have a master and it's
57:30got like 3Bs of headroom, I would turn
57:32it 3Bs up so it just hits zero because
57:37that's what you most mastering does hits
57:40zero or at least to the same level. And
57:43I would al always send the raw material
57:47to a bus so I can
57:50AB between the mastered and the
57:54unmastered and and and actually setting
57:57the levels right because
58:00level level can cheat you in in thinking
58:04that it sounds better. If things are
58:05louder, you automatically think they
58:07sound better. And and a lot of the times
58:11uh you should just take care. Thank God
58:15for the new love thing that you don't
58:17have to [ __ ] I
58:20mean master compression is almost out of
58:23fashion now, right? You you you we use
58:26uh saturation and everything else
58:28instead. It's so [ __ ] nice. And I
58:31mean the worst album ever is Death
58:33Magnetics, right? I mean, it's the
58:36horror story of of all uh uh Loudness
58:41War. First of all, the album is plus two
58:45on the CD, so it distorts out of your
58:47[ __ ] CD player. And it's got like
58:50four 40 BS of loves, right? So, it's
58:53like it's always in the red. It's And
58:56it's a pity because it's a pretty good
58:58album, but at the time, everything
58:59should just be loud. So, Metallica did
59:01the loudest album ever. Can you can you
59:04go back and comment on something that
59:06you mentioned? You said that if if it
59:08sounds louder, you tend to think it
59:10sounds better. And and I noticed in a
59:12lot of the mixes that I'm doing and the
59:14mastering that I'm doing, um something
59:16will sound good at a what I consider a
59:19slower volume and then you you crank up
59:22the after the mix is done and like the
59:24frequencies change. It's like the the
59:28brights get brighter and and how do you
59:30prepare for that
59:33in the recording process? Yeah. Well, um
59:37it's you have to know your speakers in
59:40order to do that. And and I've always
59:42said it doesn't really matter what
59:44speakers you have as long as you know
59:47them. The only time I'm I'm convinced
59:50all my speakers are lying to me. My
59:52speakers lie every day. I mean, you got
59:55it. I mean, whatever you hear the real
59:57music on all the time, just listen to
59:59that. The only time it matters how your
1:00:01speaker sounds is when somebody comes in
1:00:03and have to listen to what you've done
1:00:05on those speakers. That's the only that
1:00:07that's and that's why we all have like
1:00:09more or less the same speakers within
1:00:11the same range of frequency and all
1:00:13this. And that's why NS10 I have a pair
1:00:15of NS10s. It's because everybody knows
1:00:18what they sound like, right? But uh
1:00:21yeah, it is uh it's it you have to play
1:00:25it at different levels. I I have a a
1:00:28thing when I once I feel I'm done with
1:00:32something I in the old days I would take
1:00:35a newspaper and I would just run the
1:00:37track in loop and I'll just take a
1:00:40newspaper and sit and read and if I
1:00:42react looked up I would I know oh
1:00:44there's something wrong there.
1:00:47And today you would do it on your phone,
1:00:49right? Which is
1:00:51uh which is not very polite when
1:00:53everybody else is there. So yeah, but
1:00:56yeah. Um it is Yeah, it's almost like a
1:00:59passive listening is difficult and I'm
1:01:02I'm not a fan of mastering my own stuff.
1:01:05Actually, I prefer somebody else to do
1:01:07that because you kind of it is the kill
1:01:11your darling thing because you might
1:01:12have fallen in love with some low end on
1:01:16some song and everybody else hates it
1:01:18but you love it. So, it is, you know, I
1:01:21mean, mastering your own stuff is
1:01:24difficult, but it it's the same with mi
1:01:26mixing. Sometimes it's way easier to mix
1:01:29something um uh another person recording
1:01:32because you don't have
1:01:33any you don't have any of the addictions
1:01:36to any of the material. You just want to
1:01:38make it sound as good as possible. And
1:01:40they they could have been fighting to
1:01:42get the low end in the guitar. The first
1:01:43thing you do is cut everything below 200
1:01:46because it [ __ ] up the sound, right? I
1:01:48mean, it's it's that kind of thing
1:01:50there. And that's there's no rules here.
1:01:53You just have to [ __ ] you know, use
1:01:55your ears.
1:01:56But yeah, it is it's but you know that's
1:01:59the way loudness works. Highs and lows
1:02:01get the louder you play the the more you
1:02:04get.
1:02:06Piggybacking off of Frank, do you
1:02:07primarily mix those albums or any albums
1:02:10moving forward uh at low volume so you
1:02:12prevent ear fatigue or or do you mix at
1:02:15different?
1:02:16I tend to uh to do sound pretty loud. So
1:02:21once when I do a like a bass drum sound,
1:02:24I play really really loud because I want
1:02:26to feel it in my body. And then when I
1:02:28balance everything, I play pretty
1:02:31quiet. And I think the reason why
1:02:33because I'm I I I feel that I can hear
1:02:37pretty well. Uh I haven't had it tested
1:02:40lately, but I've I I can do it myself
1:02:43with the tone generator, and I'm doing
1:02:45all right. Uh especially for my age. I
1:02:48think it's because when you sit in the
1:02:50studio and you're in control of the
1:02:54volume, you would automatically turn it
1:02:57down. I mean, I think what when people
1:03:00get tinitus, it's because somebody
1:03:02suddenly plays something very light loud
1:03:05that you don't know. And I mean, you
1:03:07wouldn't do that on yourself
1:03:08unless you make an accident,
1:03:12right? So, yeah. But yeah, no. Uh I I
1:03:16make I mean when I do the balance I play
1:03:20at pretty low levels actually.
1:03:24Is there any chance you can convince AEX
1:03:27to re release those EQs?
1:03:31Uh as I said earlier I think somebody
1:03:34made them as a guitar pedal. I'm gonna
1:03:38see if I can find out who did that. But
1:03:41they have like an EQ that does exactly
1:03:44that.
1:03:45Someone put it up. It's called Master
1:03:47Effects. I actually have two of them.
1:03:48Oh, they're good. Oh, yeah. They're
1:03:51great. But Okay. All right. Yeah. That
1:03:54that thing, the toys.
1:03:57The stupid The stupid thing is that I
1:03:59actually closed the studio in 2008
1:04:02because they they wanted to tear the
1:04:04buildings down and I put them up for
1:04:05sale and nobody bought them.
1:04:11Oh, but now they stay here with me.
1:04:17I have a couple of questions uh
1:04:19regarding uh the drums. So um what was
1:04:23the mindset for the kick drum during the
1:04:25writer lightning sessions? Obviously
1:04:28it's it's not as audible as it is on
1:04:30Master of Puppets and Injustice for All.
1:04:32So I was wondering what was different
1:04:34back then in terms of uh of of of u uh
1:04:39desired
1:04:41um
1:04:42um desired
1:04:45um h how should I call it
1:04:48um ho how how much clarity you wanted to
1:04:52get out of the kick drum was it like it
1:04:55was it was
1:04:56uh it was just trying to get the best
1:05:00possible kick drum sound out of the kick
1:05:02he had
1:05:03then. And
1:05:05uh I always use a graphic EQ on uh on my
1:05:11kick
1:05:12drums. I use it still. It is right
1:05:18here. All right. Hang
1:05:20on. It's the that
1:05:23one, the Clark EQ. And that's bass drum
1:05:27one and bassrum two. So I always use
1:05:30that. And uh the philosophy on write the
1:05:34lightning was that um we just wanted to
1:05:37sound as good and as loud as possible
1:05:40and we didn't start going into the
1:05:42attack click kind of thing till we did
1:05:45master puppets. And I'm also surprised
1:05:47when I hear right the lightning that
1:05:49there's not that there's not any more
1:05:52highend on but it you know I mean it it
1:05:54you didn't do that back in the day
1:05:58right? Um, aside from that, I'm also
1:06:02interested, uh, how much editing went
1:06:04into Justice drum tracks. Um, there were
1:06:08some stories about, you know, uh, the
1:06:11the the master tracks, uh, that they
1:06:15keep in their archive pretty much being
1:06:16torn to shreds over the years, you know,
1:06:20with with all the the sticky tape, you
1:06:21know, losing its adhesive properties and
1:06:24whatnot. So, I'm I'm just wondering if
1:06:26that's like an urban legend or or or or
1:06:28if No, no, that is absolutely true. Uh
1:06:32what we did on uh on Injustice was that
1:06:36uh once I got over there cuz I didn't
1:06:38get up there till like six, seven weeks
1:06:41into the session cuz I was booked. So,
1:06:45you know, they had booked the studio
1:06:47without consulting me. Uh so, they
1:06:49started with my clink and that didn't go
1:06:51down well at all. And so they finally I
1:06:55could finally come over there. We
1:06:56started all over and and we simply
1:06:59started
1:07:01by playing the different parts of the
1:07:04song till it felt right in the right
1:07:06tempo. We would write down the uh the
1:07:09tempo because all of right the lightning
1:07:12is done to a click
1:07:13track and we would simply start from the
1:07:16beginning. would do the intro, do a
1:07:18click, then we'd get to another part. If
1:07:20that had to be a little bit faster, I
1:07:22would rec punch into record and start
1:07:26the lind drum at the same time. So, we
1:07:28would actually do a click that went up
1:07:29in tempo and sped up into the chorus and
1:07:33then down again for the verse. So, we
1:07:34would have like and uh like one is like
1:07:38eight minutes long. We would have an
1:07:39eight minute click track and and they
1:07:41would play through a couple of times
1:07:43making sure that all the tempos were
1:07:44right. And once we decided that that was
1:07:48it,
1:07:51uh James would play two guide rhythm
1:07:54guitars and he would piss off to San
1:07:57Francisco and me and Lars would record
1:07:59the drums and that would take
1:08:04um anywhere from 3 to seven days.
1:08:09and per song. Per song. Yes. It took us
1:08:12two and a half months to do drums on
1:08:14Injustice Fall.
1:08:17And uh and that's so long. And we would
1:08:20do it from the start to finish. So we
1:08:22would do it like, you know, the way it
1:08:25was. And that also meant that I had to
1:08:29punch in all the time on the drums.
1:08:33And
1:08:34uh and every time he'd done a good bit,
1:08:37we would listen to it. And if there was
1:08:38like one hit that was slightly off, I
1:08:41would edit a small piece of the tape
1:08:43out. Uh if it was too too slow, and if
1:08:46it was too fast, I would pick down I
1:08:48would put all these small bits in an
1:08:50envelope. And there are tons of edits on
1:08:54it. And Justice for All. I'm pretty sure
1:08:56you can't play the tape anymore. And
1:08:59Justice for All is basically uh a DAW
1:09:03drum session made on analog tape. For
1:09:07every song we did, I had uh an A4, it's
1:09:11called Letter in in in the States,
1:09:14envelope, and it was [ __ ] full of
1:09:16tape
1:09:17bits. So, uh I know that when they had
1:09:21to mix it, they kind of stopped the
1:09:23tapes because they thought it was
1:09:24[ __ ] but that was just all the edits
1:09:26flying by. So there's I mean there's
1:09:29like tons of edits there and I hope they
1:09:32transferred it to to digital before it
1:09:35all went bust because I'm pretty sure
1:09:36they can't play it
1:09:38anymore unless somebody really starts
1:09:41[ __ ] fiddling with it again and
1:09:43making sure it's all straight. Yeah, I
1:09:46guess reassembling it is pretty much
1:09:47impossible if it fell apart. But uh
1:09:50there is also another urban legend that
1:09:53Lars recorded the kicks separately.
1:09:56So, no. Okay. Okay. That's an urban
1:09:59legend. And I can tell you that the
1:10:01machine gun part, the double bass drum
1:10:04part, uh, on one last did that in first
1:10:09take. One [ __ ] take. And it was right
1:10:12there. That's the one that's on the
1:10:15album. So, that was take one. And I was
1:10:17I was really I was really dreading this
1:10:21because I was thinking that's going to
1:10:22be the difficult part. He [ __ ] nailed
1:10:24that right off. No problem.
1:10:27Right. Um, one more one more question.
1:10:31Um, which drum heads uh were used uh in
1:10:35the uh in the recording sessions. Uh, I
1:10:40can't remember, but I know this guy who
1:10:42sits up here too from Mexico, he knows
1:10:45we're saying that in the master class.
1:10:47We're actually showing what heads are
1:10:49being used on the different drum kits.
1:10:52Uh so uh you're gonna have to wait till
1:10:54October and you you you'll know that.
1:10:56Well, I mean one one question that all
1:10:58of us are aspiring to do in that final
1:11:00output the separation. Yeah. You know
1:11:04when let's take it from like a home
1:11:06recording to a novice to an intermediate
1:11:08recording. They don't have the
1:11:09separation of guitar in its sphere,
1:11:11drums in its sphere, vocal in its
1:11:13sphere. How do you guys do that on your
1:11:16end? Now, I'm sure analog equipment, you
1:11:19know, top stuff, you know, everything.
1:11:21You got U87s, but that's not the only
1:11:24thing. That clarity in a heavy metal
1:11:27album where there's still separation
1:11:29amongst chaos and distortion. How the
1:11:32hell is that separation achieved in that
1:11:36final mix? Or is that mastering?
1:11:40That's 99% the mix. Um, and that is
1:11:45getting it's a lot about moving faders.
1:11:48Actually, it's a lot about making space
1:11:51for the important things. Uh, all good
1:11:54mixers, you move things around so that
1:11:57you know, once this guy plays the
1:11:58important thing, we take him up a little
1:12:00bit. We take the rhythm guitar down.
1:12:02It's it's all about moving faders up and
1:12:05down all the time. And that's why having
1:12:08any kind of uh uh you know fader
1:12:12interface would help a lot for a lot of
1:12:15mixing. It's I mean faders in instead of
1:12:18mixing with a mouse is way
1:12:21better. Just the fact that you're
1:12:24sitting holding your hand on a lead
1:12:25vocal and it's actually just moving
1:12:29slightly actually brings a lot can bring
1:12:31life to a track instead of a [ __ ]
1:12:33flat line. That's exactly what a flat
1:12:36line is. That's no
1:12:38life. So, so move I mean, you
1:12:42know, find out what has to come out in
1:12:45that bit. Make sure that's predominant.
1:12:48Take some if if it if it if it doesn't
1:12:51have room, you're going to have to take
1:12:52something else out or EQ it out there so
1:12:56that everything fits. It's It takes a
1:12:59while.
1:13:01I always see when I mix, I always see
1:13:04the music as a picture. I don't know
1:13:06why, but it's it's it's a thing I do.
1:13:09So, I'm sitting looking at pictures and
1:13:11if there's a yellow color over here, I
1:13:13hate it. So, that has to go.
1:13:16So actually that's also one of the very
1:13:19first thing I say when I start mixing
1:13:21which is a a religious thing because I
1:13:24always pan the drums the way I see them
1:13:27not the way the drummer sees them. Do
1:13:30you think that evolved over time? If we
1:13:32go back to 1972 Uriah Heap, Demons and
1:13:35Wizards phenomenal recording right there
1:13:38where everything else was in rock was
1:13:40sounding kind of flat. Yeah. Then 76
1:13:43Boston comes out with their album. you
1:13:45start to see that separation, that 3D
1:13:47it's it's I think it is. Yeah. And it's
1:13:51it's also using uh reverb and delays to
1:13:56make sure that everybody has their own
1:13:58space. I mean, it's always the actually
1:14:01uh if if if you are having difficult
1:14:05hearing something, hit the mono button
1:14:07and turn the pan from far left to far
1:14:09right. You'll notice that there's one
1:14:12point where it's louder than everything
1:14:13else. That's where there's space for
1:14:15that
1:14:17thing. It's actually a really good
1:14:19trick. I mean, mono can help you a
1:14:22[ __ ] lot. I have, thank God, I have
1:14:25ears that I mean, I go nuts if if things
1:14:29are out of phase. I [ __ ] hate it more
1:14:31than anything else. So, I hear that
1:14:33right off. But, I mean, you know,
1:14:35hitting the mono button and you find out
1:14:37where's all the low end in my mix. Yeah.
1:14:39Well, maybe the low end in your guitars
1:14:41are out of phase, right?
1:14:44and and you know sometimes just hitting
1:14:46that face button really does
1:14:50[ __ ] That's that's why when I've
1:14:52recorded when I mix now the first thing
1:14:54I do is I take up the drums I find a
1:14:57snare hit a really loud snare hit and
1:15:01then I move all the microphones so that
1:15:04they all hit the snare at the same
1:15:07time. We're talking samples. And if you
1:15:11zoom right in on ProTools, you're
1:15:13actually reading from the hard drive.
1:15:16You can I mean, you know, sometime the
1:15:18top and bottom snare often if you don't
1:15:20turn the face on the B bottom snare, it
1:15:22will be opposite, but it also comes a
1:15:25bit later. So I move that ahead so that
1:15:28they come the arrive at the same time.
1:15:30Then I move the [ __ ] overhead so they
1:15:33come at the same time. So everything is
1:15:35[ __ ] right there and in the same
1:15:37phase. And that can sometime
1:15:41uh make sure you know you can sometimes
1:15:44then take off two EQs and a compressor
1:15:47because whoa it suddenly sounds good.
1:15:50And every time you record anything with
1:15:52more than one mic you got to check the
1:15:54face. It it's one of the most important
1:15:57things ever. And and and that's why I uh
1:16:02because it's the same thing if you're
1:16:03recording with two mics and you just
1:16:05move one mic a little bit. sound will
1:16:08change
1:16:09immensely because the phase is is is is
1:16:12totally out if you angle one of the
1:16:14mics. Same thing, but it can also do
1:16:18good [ __ ] for you. You just need to, you
1:16:20know, basically we should all have an an
1:16:23assistant engineer just running around
1:16:24moving mics till they sound
1:16:27good. And we spend a lot of time doing
1:16:29that on these albums. And I had a
1:16:32gorgeous assistant engineer
1:16:37It was a I remember reading I remember
1:16:39reading that you guys would take weeks
1:16:42to get the guitar sound dialed in. Like
1:16:44literally just like you know it kind of
1:16:47blew my mind like was it like six weeks
1:16:49to dial in the guitar sound? Uh that
1:16:52must have been on uh Injustice for
1:16:56All because uh it never it never took me
1:17:01more than a couple of hours. I know that
1:17:04on I mean what happened with Injustice
1:17:06for All was the last called me and said
1:17:08we booked the studio from January 3rd
1:17:11and we booked it for four months and I
1:17:13said that's great. Uh I can't till m 1
1:17:16of
1:17:17May. So I had to turn it down. So they
1:17:20started off with my
1:17:22clank
1:17:24and three weeks into January last calls
1:17:27me and asked me when I can come because
1:17:28they were still doing guitar sound. So
1:17:31it was probably on injustice for all and
1:17:34and it doesn't uh reflect uh on my
1:17:39clink. It was just because he was not
1:17:42working the way Metallica was used to
1:17:44work because my clink has done some
1:17:45fantastic work. So it's not on him at
1:17:48all. It's just because Metallica
1:17:49couldn't I mean they couldn't relate to
1:17:51the way he was
1:17:53working. So uh yeah. So how long did it
1:17:56take you to get it dialed in once you
1:17:57got there?
1:17:58Uh, we recorded the first song the next
1:18:01day.
1:18:04Okay.
1:18:06So, yeah. I mean, guitar sound took
1:18:09about half a day max.
1:18:13Is that just because of your familiarity
1:18:14with what they wanted? Yeah, probably.
1:18:17Gotcha. Yeah. on that album. I wanted to
1:18:21jump back to what you said about the
1:18:23click, how you had to for different
1:18:25sections if the tempo changed, you would
1:18:26start the lindrum at that section, which
1:18:29sounds amazing. So then it sounds like
1:18:31you didn't get any pre-click. So if if
1:18:33Lars is playing, he's just got to know
1:18:35that that section's going to change and
1:18:37adjust his speed. Did you run into
1:18:39troubles there trying to line it up? Uh,
1:18:43no. But I mean, if there is a a if there
1:18:47is a tempo change in the music, it
1:18:49doesn't have to be instant. He could
1:18:51kind of gradually get up there and that
1:18:54will meant that he would some have to
1:18:55speed and then fall down again. But
1:18:56that's pretty natural. That's why it
1:18:58doesn't sound like it's played to a
1:19:00click track because we would always when
1:19:04we checked whether the drum track was
1:19:07all right, we was always would always
1:19:08check that without the click. We all
1:19:11check if it check if it felt right
1:19:13without the click. Didn't it actually
1:19:16didn't matter how it sounded with the
1:19:17click as long as it sounded good without
1:19:19the click. And once the drums are done,
1:19:22nobody heard the click track anymore.
1:19:24They had to play to L's drums.
1:19:29So it's it's basically just a helper for
1:19:32Lars to stay in the range. You know, it
1:19:35could be ahead or behind whatever felt
1:19:38comfortable for him. It was fine. as
1:19:40long as it felt right when we took the
1:19:42click out.
1:19:44And that's actually the same way I work
1:19:46today. If people use a click, I never
1:19:49hear it in the control room and and I uh
1:19:53and I just listen to what the drummer
1:19:55does and if it feels right, it's right.
1:19:58I heard the urban legend that when you
1:20:00first started working with Metallica,
1:20:02Lars was uh basically uneducated as far
1:20:05as musical terms and you had to teach
1:20:07him what an upbeat was. Is that true?
1:20:09Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's all
1:20:11true.
1:20:13That's That's fascinating to me. It was
1:20:16a great It's because he grew up uh in
1:20:19the old way and his father was a [ __ ]
1:20:21you know, he was B was his father was a
1:20:25Buddhist and he was a tennis player and
1:20:29he has won in in in in Denmark. He was
1:20:32playing the finals for the Danish
1:20:34championship and he was winning and he
1:20:38was about to serve and a butterfly lands
1:20:41on his
1:20:42racket and he he shouts to the empire.
1:20:46He goes, "I quit." Cuz he went, "You
1:20:52can't quit. You're winning. You're
1:20:53Danish champion in a second. What the
1:20:55[ __ ] are you doing?" It was because he
1:20:57wanted to go out in the dressing room to
1:20:59figure out whether the butterfly wanted
1:21:02to be a tennis player or whether he
1:21:05wanted to be a butterfly. That's the
1:21:07kind of guy Lo's dad was. And he was uh
1:21:12he he was frequently at a jazz club in
1:21:16Denmark called in Copenhagen called
1:21:18Matra. And we had all these jazz legend
1:21:21coming in playing there. And a lot of
1:21:23them would after the gig go with Lars's
1:21:27father who also he played clarinet. I
1:21:29think they would go back to the his
1:21:31house and they would jam all night. And
1:21:33obviously Lars heard some of that. Uh so
1:21:37so Lars has always just played to what
1:21:41everybody else is playing. So he didn't
1:21:44have that kind of structured feel to it.
1:21:47And and the story you're relating to is
1:21:49the fact that the first song we recorded
1:21:52for real on the Ride the Lightning album
1:21:54was actually the title track, Ride the
1:21:56Lightning, because that was one of the
1:21:57four songs that was already
1:22:00finished. And they' done two or three
1:22:03takes and I asked them to come in so we
1:22:04could have a listen to it and we would
1:22:06talk about it and like ask Lars, you're
1:22:08playing this in the first verse, which
1:22:10is really nice, and then you play
1:22:12something different in the second verse.
1:22:15And he'd never thought about that.
1:22:18And then every time he did a break, he
1:22:20would start on an upbeat. And I said,
1:22:21"You every time you do a break, why do
1:22:23you start on an upbeat?" And he went,
1:22:24"What's an upbeat?" And I had to tell,
1:22:27you know, you count to four and all of
1:22:29this. He he didn't know about that. He
1:22:32was just playing and he was enjoying it.
1:22:35And he was doing very well. And he still
1:22:36is. He's still the best drummer in
1:22:39Metallica.
1:22:41It's almost like a unencumbered
1:22:43approach. There's no structure, no
1:22:44formula. He just plays what he feels.
1:22:46Yeah.
1:22:47Yeah. It's it's probably because of his
1:22:50his his all all of his jazz background
1:22:52and his dad's jazz background, but
1:22:54obviously he loved all the s all the
1:22:57bands in the the new wave British metal.
1:22:59So, he'd heard all of those, so he knew
1:23:01what what he had to do. Has your process
1:23:04changed over the years? What would it be
1:23:06like if Metallica made a record with you
1:23:08today? Probably be the same. I don't
1:23:11know. I mean, they've changed. I've
1:23:14changed. My process hasn't changed that
1:23:17much over the years. Um, and and we're
1:23:21not I mean, we're still friends. I mean,
1:23:24it's it's not like we we split up and
1:23:27and we we don't talk. I mean, we talk
1:23:30all the time and I I write to L
1:23:32frequently. Uh and he knows about this
1:23:34project as well. And
1:23:37uh and uh um if they asked me to do an
1:23:42album, I would probably say yes. I
1:23:45would ask for the demos first because it
1:23:48would be really stupid of me to do a
1:23:50really bad Metallica album with the
1:23:52legacy I have now. So I I would demand
1:23:55to hear the songs first. But you know, I
1:23:58would probably do it. It could be fun.
1:24:01But I mean, you know, there's nothing on
1:24:03the board, so don't worry. I'll tell
1:24:06you. Did James use um like a tube
1:24:10screamer for layering for his rhythm
1:24:12tracks or was that more so for lead and
1:24:15melody? He used that sometimes depending
1:24:18depend depending on the song. Uh we
1:24:21would use again if we wanted something
1:24:25that should distort more.
1:24:27Uh, see what I did was normally when
1:24:29they came with the demo, they would play
1:24:32the guitar from start to finish and I
1:24:35would chop that up into
1:24:37bits. So, so if they had chords that
1:24:40they only played at some parts, I would
1:24:42add those chords. So, they played during
1:24:45the solo. So, there's a rhythm guitar
1:24:46from start to finish. They never did
1:24:48that because then they had melodies and
1:24:50they had this and that. So I would chop
1:24:52everything into bits and a lot of those
1:24:54different sounds had tube screamer, some
1:24:56of them didn't. And and they were all
1:24:59recorded in blocks of three or four. So
1:25:02at some point in some of the songs
1:25:04there's like 22 rhythm
1:25:07guitars or melody guitars and solos and
1:25:10whatever and whatnot and three and four
1:25:12of each, you know. So
1:25:16you have a
1:25:18questions question.
1:25:21Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you like uh use delay
1:25:27on rooms on like how many seconds?
1:25:30Delays on room room mics. Yeah. No, no.
1:25:37On drums. Uh, I do it now sometimes.
1:25:42move them so
1:25:45they so today I would move them forward
1:25:49so they're they are not so far away but
1:25:52back in the day no never and all and and
1:25:55I had like a time sheet that said if the
1:25:58tempo is this then the delay times are
1:26:01because you didn't have computers then
1:26:02that that counted it out for you. So I
1:26:04had this on a p piece of paper. So if
1:26:06the tempo was 60, you know, uh uh one
1:26:09beat was uh
1:26:12uh thousand milliseconds and so on. You
1:26:14would have all the tempos and you go
1:26:16check the delay times because you had to
1:26:18punch those in on your delay
1:26:21units. But I I never used never ever
1:26:24used delays on any of my room mics.
1:26:26Never. Okay. I know that uh I know that
1:26:31you said that uh Ride the Lightning was
1:26:33the first song recorded on the album.
1:26:35What about the other two albums?
1:26:39Uh, I can't remember. I have that uh in
1:26:43my notes somewhere. I can figure that
1:26:45out for you and and and put it on
1:26:48uh probably
1:26:52on I guess I'm guess we we probably have
1:26:55somewhere where we can communicate. I
1:26:57don't I don't actually don't really
1:26:59know. I can't remember what was the
1:27:00first I think the first one we did on
1:27:02Injustice was
1:27:05I can't remember. But on all all of
1:27:08these albums, the first thing we we
1:27:10recorded was uh two B
1:27:13sides. And that's actually pretty smart
1:27:16because because it takes a while to dial
1:27:19in all the sounds so they're actually
1:27:20100% perfect. So we will always start
1:27:22recording two cover songs for
1:27:25Bides and then once we've gotten
1:27:27everything right and all the sounds set,
1:27:28they start recording their own material.
1:27:31But the first Ride the Lightning song we
1:27:34did on Ride was Ride the
1:27:36Lightning. Uh, Master Puppets. I can't
1:27:39[ __ ] remember which one it was.
1:27:41Sorry.
1:27:43Thanks, Fleming. I know probably I guess
1:27:47as as you're in and Metallica's success
1:27:49from each album got bigger and bigger.
1:27:50Were there other bands that were I know
1:27:52you said like cameras weren't really
1:27:54allowed and or the sharing of
1:27:56information is really common now, but
1:27:57back then were there other bands trying
1:27:59to peek in and and get a little bit of
1:28:01that secret sauce?
1:28:03Uh, no, not really. Um because Ride and
1:28:08Master were recorded in Copenhagen and
1:28:11and I mean up
1:28:14until probably the Black Album not not
1:28:17many people in Denmark maybe a couple of
1:28:20thousand knew who the hell Metallica was
1:28:23because they were so underground. So no
1:28:25I mean these days every because we
1:28:27recorded in two shifts. We had a day
1:28:29shift and a night shift back in the day.
1:28:32So, we always started at seven in the
1:28:34evening and went all all night and then
1:28:36back to bed and slept and then met again
1:28:38at seven in the evening. But I know I
1:28:41mean most everybody I talked to in
1:28:43Denmark say they were in the studio
1:28:45during the daytime when Metallica was
1:28:47there at night. So, I'm guessing it's
1:28:49something people want to Yeah, I guess I
1:28:52clarify my question. Maybe not so much
1:28:54as peeking in the studio, but you know,
1:28:56maybe after the fact the albums are
1:28:58released, maybe they start trying to to
1:29:00find out your techniques and secrets and
1:29:02you know, I know you've done other
1:29:03bands. Yeah, I know that uh Lass and me
1:29:06were talking about that when we were in
1:29:08oneonone and we recorded and just straw
1:29:11and lo said in three months everybody in
1:29:13the states are going to use this way
1:29:14this to record guitars and lo and behold
1:29:17they did. Um, and and probably I know
1:29:22Toby Wright who was my assistant
1:29:24engineer in one-on-one studios at the
1:29:26time. He went out and did a lot of
1:29:28recordings where he used the same
1:29:30techniques and fine. I mean, no problem.
1:29:34It's not a secret. We're we're helping
1:29:36each other, right?
1:29:39Well, I mean, what albums do you admire
1:29:42and think are recorded beautifully? Oh,
1:29:46there's a
1:29:47lot. Um, I'm a I'm a David Bowie kind of
1:29:51guy. I'm a Rolling Stones kind of guy. I
1:29:54love Aerrol Smith. There's a lot of good
1:29:56albums out there. It's I mean, you know,
1:29:59it's it's hard for me to be like fan,
1:30:03but I mean, there's a lot of good stuff
1:30:05out there, and it's been different
1:30:07through the through the ages. What I
1:30:09thought was good, most of the [ __ ] David
1:30:12Bowie did, I thought was [ __ ]
1:30:13fantastic. I loved a lot of the Peter
1:30:16Gabriel stuff. Uh, mainly because Peter
1:30:20Gabriel was the first one who told the
1:30:22drummer not to use any symbols or high
1:30:24hat at all. All so he could get his
1:30:26ambience right on the kick and the
1:30:28snare, which I think is great. Some
1:30:31stuff like that. Every time there's been
1:30:34a new innovation, I've been like, "What
1:30:36the hell is that? I gotta figure that
1:30:38out." And yeah, but I mean there lot of
1:30:41albums. I mean, I'm pretty diverse in my
1:30:44musical taste, but again, I'm here like
1:30:488 10 hours a day. I don't hear that much
1:30:51music when I go home. I hear most of the
1:30:54music in the
1:30:55studio. So, I mean, I'm not the guy that
1:30:58throws on an album when I come home. I
1:31:01put my feet up, turn on the TV, and grab
1:31:03a beer.
1:31:06Nowadays, when you're mixing, are you
1:31:08comfortable doing most of the mix or all
1:31:10of the mix in the DAW or do you use a
1:31:12summing mixer or do you use I I work
1:31:16everything in the box? Everything. I
1:31:18have a summing mixer, but I haven't
1:31:20connected it yet. I will soon. I would
1:31:22like to try to see if there's any
1:31:24difference, but um I've I'm just so used
1:31:27to working in in in in the door that I'
1:31:31I just keep doing it that way. It's all
1:31:34It's also extremely handy because you
1:31:36can like work on a lot of different
1:31:38songs at the same time and it's just a
1:31:40flick of a switch and you're back. I use
1:31:42a lot of Outboard gear though. But
1:31:45again, in this day and age, I just take
1:31:47a picture, I hit my Dropbox, it uploads
1:31:50the picture to Dropbox, I put the
1:31:51picture in my session, and I can [ __ ]
1:31:54recreate everything in minutes. It's
1:31:56It's really easy. Uh, but I tend to use
1:32:00a lot of analog gear. Even when I mix, I
1:32:03use a lot of my analog reverb still. I
1:32:06have a Lexicon and an EMT. I got, you
1:32:09know, I have all this [ __ ] that I use a
1:32:12lot. Even my AMS digital delay is being
1:32:16used now because we use that for the
1:32:18session because that does the guitar
1:32:19sound on Sanitarium. So that I mean once
1:32:22I heard that again I went like I gotta
1:32:24use that more.
1:32:28But you're using hardware inserts and
1:32:30then do you have a certain certain
1:32:32converters that you like to use for your
1:32:34conversion? Uh I use just the aid ones.
1:32:38Okay. Um the new ones, right?
1:32:42Cool. The dark gray ones. Uh um yeah,
1:32:46they work for me. Yeah. Follow-up
1:32:50question on that. If you didn't have any
1:32:52of the analog outboard gear in your
1:32:54studio, which you've obviously invested
1:32:56in over the decades, could you make a
1:32:59parallel album today with just a doll
1:33:02stock plugins? Can you come close
1:33:05without using any of the analog outboard
1:33:07gear? That is a good question. I don't
1:33:10know because I've never tried it. But
1:33:13now you say it, I should I should on
1:33:17this album we actually
1:33:21like do we have a chance here? Actually
1:33:23on this we we do we have a chance. That
1:33:26was a good question. Thank you for Thank
1:33:28you for asking that. Yeah. On the on
1:33:31actually on this I set up two different
1:33:35desks more or less. I set up a desk in
1:33:38in the door, which is a Trident
1:33:41desk, but obviously not with the mic
1:33:44preamps, and I just I I did nothing on
1:33:46the preamps except
1:33:48level. And I used focus rights and and
1:33:51stuff like that. And even though I have
1:33:53Trident uh mic pres, uh they were all in
1:33:57neutral, which was which was very
1:33:59difficult for me. But uh cuz in order to
1:34:03do this, I did all the treat actually on
1:34:05this uh master class, I did all the
1:34:07treatment in the door. So yeah, I'm
1:34:10think I think you get pretty close
1:34:12actually.
1:34:14My band out there. I forgot I forgot
1:34:16we've done it that way. Yeah, sure you
1:34:18can.
1:34:20And then I mean I think that's that's
1:34:22the ultimate goal what we're after.
1:34:24We're all trying to get better at what
1:34:26we do with the music that we craft. And
1:34:28we're limited by certain things,
1:34:29especially in the digital world that we
1:34:31live in, looking at everything you got
1:34:33behind you. You know, I I think we're
1:34:35all trying to take what you've learned
1:34:37over these years and filter it through
1:34:38our own creative process. But I'm
1:34:41looking at what you have and I am
1:34:43severely limited to what's just in a
1:34:45doll. Yeah. Yeah. But actually, what we
1:34:46did on this, and I actually did that on
1:34:49purpose. So actually I think because I
1:34:51was surprised how close we got um
1:34:54because that's actually what we've done
1:34:56because we there's no treatment at all
1:35:00going into ProTools. It's all done in
1:35:02ProTools. So I had like 16 or 20
1:35:05channels of auxiliary inputs that all
1:35:08the mics went into before they got
1:35:10recorded. So yeah, you can do that. And
1:35:15I even, as I said, I even
1:35:17put a a tape saturation in there as
1:35:20well, and we got it pretty damn
1:35:23close. So, I mean, you But you can hear
1:35:25that. You You should be the judge of
1:35:27that. Uh, but I think it's sounded
1:35:29pretty good. We had lots of smiles in
1:35:32the studio when we did it, so I'm
1:35:34guessing we're not that far off.
1:35:38What sorts of fun stuff did you learn
1:35:40from Roy Thomas Baker?
1:35:43Oh, tons of stuff.
1:35:45Uh, one of the things is that that thing
1:35:48if it doesn't sound good, change it. I
1:35:50mean, one of the things that I learned
1:35:53the most is him going
1:35:56from like lowfi mono to ultra wide
1:36:01stereo. He does that all the time and
1:36:04it's a trick I use a lot. And actually I
1:36:07use it in the beginning of
1:36:09Sanitarium where the clean guitar is
1:36:12more or less in mono. It's actually it's
1:36:16actually a a DI guitar with uh an AMS
1:36:21stereo delay recorded. So it's like a 10
1:36:2520 milliseconds harmonizer up harmonizer
1:36:28down. But it has a mono or stereo output
1:36:33switch. And once it hits the theme, the
1:36:37second time I hit the stereo switch and
1:36:40everything goes whoop. You should hear
1:36:42that on headphones. You'll hear what I
1:36:44mean. And that's that's actually just me
1:36:45sitting in the studio going click. And
1:36:48that's that's one of the things I
1:36:49learned from Roy Thomas Baker. And then
1:36:52I learned to to saturate tape when I
1:36:55needed to. And he would even do that
1:36:58when he mixed.
1:37:00But he was like mid70s then. So that was
1:37:05like the boom the the more uh uh John
1:37:09Bonham kind of bass drum sound with not
1:37:13that much attack but still you know and
1:37:15but you would get that boom if you if
1:37:17you distorted you know if you crank the
1:37:19tape in in a certain way and if you did
1:37:23it too much it would sound like [ __ ] but
1:37:24there was a point where it sounded
1:37:26really good.
1:37:28Nice. So, be being a guy that's locked
1:37:30into a digital world, if you had to
1:37:32define tape saturation in the way a
1:37:35truck driver could understand it, how
1:37:36would you explain that? It's a form of
1:37:40slight distortion and compression at the
1:37:42same time. And it
1:37:46is it's ever so subtle and you have to
1:37:49use it very very carefully because you
1:37:51can never go back. So, is there a way to
1:37:54simulate that? Slight distortion and
1:37:57compression.
1:37:59that just kind of makes music melt more
1:38:02together.
1:38:06I've done I've done a master once that
1:38:08was all recorded on one of the early
1:38:11digital probably Akai samplers and
1:38:15stuff. It sounded horrible. And I just I
1:38:18just took two faders and then I just uh
1:38:22uh recorded it into a stereo.
1:38:27um a stereo tape recorder uh and Studa 8
1:38:31a a820 with a half inch tape and then
1:38:35suddenly it sounded like music and that
1:38:37was it. No further. It was like if you
1:38:38went over that point, it just changed
1:38:41everything and it it does a great glue
1:38:45and everything. But still,
1:38:49uh, I quit analog six, eight years
1:38:53ago and my tape recorder is now on the
1:38:58Danish National Rock Museum because I'm
1:39:02[ __ ] done adjusting tape recorders.
1:39:05I've done it all my um [ __ ] that [ __ ]
1:39:08I'm not doing it anymore. So, and I
1:39:11think some of the emulations now are
1:39:14good, but I mean it's simply not worth
1:39:18it if you ask
1:39:20me. I mean, we've gotten so much better
1:39:23in terms of
1:39:25uh uh uh converters that it actually
1:39:30sounds pretty damn close. So,
1:39:34you said you're using the stutter
1:39:35plugin. Do you put that on every track
1:39:38and then push push the plugin a little
1:39:39bit? On uh all of the sessions that that
1:39:42you're going to see from from these
1:39:44three albums. Uh the first two albums
1:39:48are the Trident plugin and then a
1:39:49stutter. And that's all I use to get the
1:39:54sounds. The rest is mics and mic
1:39:56placement and fiddling with the amps.
1:40:00And on the adjusted session, it's the
1:40:03same thing just with the ne uh 81, I
1:40:06think it's
1:40:07called. And also the stutter. And it's
1:40:11less or more distortion. I think there's
1:40:14a little bit more on right than on some
1:40:16of the others, but I can I have to go
1:40:19back and check. That's
1:40:21it. That's what we've used. And then
1:40:24I've just used all the output [ __ ] I
1:40:26have. And I've we show you that. And
1:40:29also uh all of my notes are going to be
1:40:32available so you can uh you can go in
1:40:35and check what the amp settings are for
1:40:37the different songs and including also
1:40:41uh all the EQ sheets of the drum tracks.
1:40:45So you get like, you know, all the
1:40:47different mics, bass drum, one, two, uh,
1:40:50actually it's two, one, and then snare
1:40:52up, down, six toms, high hat, overheads,
1:40:56room mics, all of the different EQs for
1:40:58the Triton EQ. And I've used the soft
1:41:02tube one, first of all, because it's
1:41:04very cheap, and second of all, because
1:41:06it's modeled after my desk, so it's
1:41:09actually damn close.
1:41:11Out of all the plugins, API, SSL, or
1:41:14Neve, what do you prefer?
1:41:17Neve?
1:41:20I think I have to go for the Neve.
1:41:24I know historically, I don't think we've
1:41:25had access to um the ride the lightning
1:41:28notes. Is that something we'll be able
1:41:30to see now? No, because I didn't make
1:41:33notes then. Oh, okay. But I remember
1:41:36what I did.
1:41:38Great. that I didn't do I didn't do like
1:41:40massive notes until we did uh master
1:41:43puppets. Cool. Got it. Thank I don't I
1:41:47don't have uh uh there's a few notes in
1:41:51the Write the Lightning book on on you
1:41:54know the the the the big black box they
1:41:58did of write the lightning but they're
1:42:00they're all notes for because because
1:42:02all these notes are in the tapes because
1:42:05they belong with this with the tapes
1:42:07which is like the session in ProTools
1:42:09today or whatever and all of the tapes
1:42:12are in San Francisco in
1:42:14HQ and All all the EQ sheets I've seen
1:42:17there are for the mixing because I mixed
1:42:20that. But I mean it's I'm I'm going to
1:42:22do that next week and I'm going to
1:42:25hopefully it'll end up sounding almost
1:42:27like the album. But again, you know, uh
1:42:31then then once you've done the album,
1:42:34you deliver the master to somebody, a
1:42:37cutting engineer who had to put that on
1:42:39vinyl and he did stuff to it. So again,
1:42:42there's there's all these factors and
1:42:45all of the good vinyl engineers, they're
1:42:47gone. They
1:42:49died because there was like a period of
1:42:5125 years where nobody wanted to do vinyl
1:42:54and they never, you know, they thought,
1:42:55well, doesn't we don't have we don't
1:42:58have to tell anybody what we did because
1:43:00nobody is ever going to use vinyl
1:43:03anymore. So that's a pity. Now we have
1:43:06to do masters for the vinyl guys. Like
1:43:08what the [ __ ] That's your job, dude.
1:43:10It's like they think they're [ __ ] Yeah,
1:43:13I do vital math. [ __ ] you up. I mean, we
1:43:16do it all for you, dude. Back in the
1:43:19day, I would deliver the tape and I'd
1:43:21go, "You [ __ ] better make the album
1:43:23sound like that. You do that today, then
1:43:26then I'm gonna then I'm gonna cut your
1:43:30album, pussies."
1:43:36So, I've got a nostalgic question again.
1:43:39Oh. Oh, I'll let him go. Uh, so thank
1:43:41you. Uh, how much do you factor in
1:43:44multi-tracking when it comes to getting
1:43:47initial tones? Like I guess specifically
1:43:49for rhythm and bass because you
1:43:51mentioned a couple answers ago you had
1:43:53one part where it had like 20 tracks
1:43:55going on it. Yeah. Is that something
1:43:57where you dial in and you're like,
1:43:59"Okay, we know we're gonna stack it so
1:44:01we leave it a little bit wanting in the
1:44:04room." Or is that something where you
1:44:05get something like this will stand alone
1:44:08and then No. not layered. It's just
1:44:10more. No, the reason why we did uh so
1:44:14many tracks is because there were so
1:44:15many different
1:44:17parts. I would never stack anything more
1:44:20than at three or four
1:44:22times and it would all be with different
1:44:27levels of
1:44:28distortion. I would sometime I can
1:44:31actually see on my notes on an Justice
1:44:33that the third guitar we would always
1:44:36always turn turn the gain down a little
1:44:39bit.
1:44:42How about with vocals? Kind of
1:44:44piggybacking off that same question.
1:44:46With vocals, all of James' vocals are
1:44:49double track, but that was because he
1:44:51hated his voice as I mean when you hear
1:44:54right the lightning, you can hear he's a
1:44:56kid. He's like 21. And at that point, he
1:45:00hated singing. I mean, if any anybody
1:45:03else in the band had said, "I'll sing."
1:45:05They would have gotten the mic and and
1:45:07had Yeah. I don't know. If they'd found
1:45:09a singer, James wouldn't have sung then.
1:45:11He hated it. He seriously hated. He
1:45:14wasn't comfortable singing until we did
1:45:17uh Injustice for all. He was kind of
1:45:19getting used to it, done it so much
1:45:20live. And and when you hear him now, you
1:45:23don't understand why that man didn't
1:45:25want to sing when he was a kid. He's a
1:45:27fantastic singer, right? So, yeah, but I
1:45:31mean, in terms of stacking, uh, it was
1:45:34to get the sound as wide as possible and
1:45:37I never did two of the same guitar with
1:45:39the same amp with the same distortion.
1:45:42It was all
1:45:43always things always got tweaked a
1:45:46little bit. So, we didn't have the same
1:45:48because two of the same in each side is
1:45:50basically mono. So, we will always
1:45:53change everything around and and because
1:45:55it was all recorded uh with uh three
1:45:59microphones and I actually think know we
1:46:02had two caps on on on all amps. So, I
1:46:06had two sets of three microphones to
1:46:08choose from and they would all be
1:46:10bounced into one channel and and and I
1:46:14would always also change that on on the
1:46:16different guitars to to make them stand
1:46:19in a different place in the room. Were
1:46:21drum samples used on any of the albums?
1:46:24And if so, how did you maintain the
1:46:26dynamics needed to make it sound human?
1:46:28Uh, no. We didn't use any drum samples
1:46:31at all.
1:46:32This is we're in uh we're in uh from 84
1:46:36to 88 and and and
1:46:40um we didn't have samplers then. Not not
1:46:44any we used in in the studio as I were
1:46:46anyway. We're talking about the
1:46:49beginning of hip-hop kind of thing, you
1:46:51know, but not not really. And we so we
1:46:54didn't use any drum samples at all. It's
1:46:57all played live.
1:46:58All the all the albums I've done,
1:47:00everything you hear is played live. Any
1:47:03advice on like dealing with mic bleed
1:47:05and getting the snare to come through
1:47:06more, getting the kick drum to come
1:47:08through more like on Justice? I don't
1:47:10know whe I don't know because I wasn't
1:47:13there when they mixed it. We didn't use
1:47:15any gates at all while recording it.
1:47:17They could have done when they mixed
1:47:19because they mixed it on as SSL desk
1:47:21that has a gate, but whether they used
1:47:24that or not, I don't know, actually. So,
1:47:27so I can't answer that question. I uh
1:47:31haven't
1:47:32used I mean I I barely use gates at all.
1:47:37I used the gate for the first time today
1:47:39mixing because I had a snare that had
1:47:41too much high hat and I kind of just,
1:47:44you know, it it it just turns it down
1:47:47about 8 to 10 dBs when he's not hitting
1:47:50the snare just to to level down the high
1:47:53hat in the mix. That was it. But I never
1:47:57gate things so that they are totally
1:47:59isolated. I never do that. So I know you
1:48:03were talking about the mono to stereo
1:48:05trick you used on Sanitarium. Are there
1:48:07any other full of weird tricks you used
1:48:09on any of the other two albums or any
1:48:11other songs on Master? Yeah, we're
1:48:13showing some of them in the uh in in in
1:48:17the in the master class. We used another
1:48:21thing on Sanitarium. When that stereo
1:48:24comes in, we also have chord guitar that
1:48:28basically just plays the chords, but
1:48:31it's it then triggers a gate via the
1:48:34click. So, it it's basically kind of
1:48:38like a tremolo guitar, but not really.
1:48:41But you'll hear that when when you see
1:48:42the master class. We did a lot of I
1:48:45mean, the only kind of stuff we could do
1:48:47then was backwards stuff.
1:48:50We did a lot of uh backwards recording.
1:48:52That mean meant we turned the tape
1:48:54around which was always very dangerous
1:48:56because then tape one was uh tape 24 and
1:49:01so on.
1:49:04Um the intro to damage incorporated is
1:49:07that base swells or is that recorded
1:49:09backwards?
1:49:12That
1:49:14is Oh, I have that written down
1:49:17somewhere. It's
1:49:19it. I think all of the beginning of
1:49:21damage incorporated is just
1:49:24cliff. So it is it is swells and
1:49:28backwards
1:49:30recordings and there are like three
1:49:33melody three harmony three more
1:49:38melodies, two backwards chords on bass.
1:49:41I mean it's like six, eight, 10 tracks.
1:49:43I'm going to I'm going to actually try
1:49:46I'm going to put it into a Pro Tools
1:49:48session and turn it around so I can hear
1:49:50what the [ __ ] we did because because I
1:49:51can't remember. But I have a note
1:49:52somewhere of what what how many it's in
1:49:56the notes how many tracks are of which.
1:49:58But it's I think it's all cliff.
1:50:03So you mentioned that today you you
1:50:05don't like how bands will copy and paste
1:50:07their riffs. Uh what else can bands do
1:50:10to make better music these days?
1:50:13Uh
1:50:14practice, practice. That's ridiculous,
1:50:17you know. Uh
1:50:19um it's it's hard work, you know, making
1:50:23good music. It's it's like, you know,
1:50:25practice your scales. You you might not
1:50:28need it, but once you do the solo, you
1:50:30know what goes where and when. And you
1:50:31know, it's it's to, you know, know your
1:50:35[ __ ] practice. I mean, and and h, you
1:50:39know, have an idea with what you're
1:50:41doing.
1:50:42That was what was so obvious compared to
1:50:44other bands when I did write the
1:50:46lightning is how determined Metallica
1:50:49was. They were [ __ ] not going to
1:50:52budge for
1:50:53anything. The the only actually the only
1:50:57exception for doing what they wanted
1:50:59themselves ever Metallica did was the
1:51:02number was the escape number on Ride the
1:51:04Lightning. But that was because they
1:51:06wanted a major label deal. And they
1:51:07thought, "All right, if if if we get a
1:51:10major label in, we can say they can send
1:51:12this out out as a single." And I mean,
1:51:15it's m, you know, Right. The Lightning
1:51:18is 40 years old on the 27th of July this
1:51:21year. They played Escape [ __ ] once,
1:51:25and that was at their own Orion festival
1:51:27where they played All Right The
1:51:29Lightning, and they couldn't get away
1:51:31from it. James [ __ ] hates that song
1:51:33so much. And it is actually a pretty
1:51:35good song except for the chorus that is
1:51:38so [ __ ] shitty it's
1:51:41unbelievable. But a lot of people I know
1:51:43love that song. They say it's one of
1:51:45Metallica's best. I'm like
1:51:48what? Yeah. But you know practice and
1:51:52have a purpose with what you're doing.
1:51:54Don't I mean don't just play music
1:51:57because you want to get known or want to
1:51:59be famous. No. I mean that's never going
1:52:01to cut it. I mean, you got to have a
1:52:03purpose with everything you're doing.
1:52:05It's it's like uh I'm in the part of my
1:52:08life where people talking about getting
1:52:09retired. And they always say, "Okay,
1:52:11when I get retired, I want to read a lot
1:52:13of books." Well, if you want to read
1:52:15books, you're going to find time for it
1:52:16now. You're not going to like reading
1:52:18books just because you don't have
1:52:20anything else to do. You know, it's
1:52:23like, "Okay, when I get retired, I want
1:52:25to go fishing." No. If you like fishing,
1:52:27you would do it now. you would find the
1:52:31time. It's the same with
1:52:33music. If if you can't help doing it, do
1:52:37it right. And and practice, practice so
1:52:41you can do it. Well,
1:52:44Fleming, when you first got in the
1:52:45studio on Ride the Lightning, did you
1:52:47know you had magic there in these songs?
1:52:50Uh, could you see it? I didn't know
1:52:52whether I felt it was magic, but I knew
1:52:55that this was something else.
1:52:59And and I [ __ ] totally I loved it. I
1:53:03mean, we we we [ __ ] clicked from day
1:53:06one. I mean, it was like it was the five
1:53:08of us against the world. I was like 26
1:53:11at the time. Cliff was 24. The other
1:53:15guys were 20,
1:53:1721. And I mean, so I was like what, four
1:53:21years older than Lars and James. Five
1:53:23years older than Lars. And I mean, but
1:53:25but the time, you know, the age
1:53:28difference when you're 20 to 26 is so
1:53:30big, but they actually called me daddy
1:53:32at some point after a couple of weeks.
1:53:35But I
1:53:36was I was trying to figure out what they
1:53:39wanted and and we we were on that
1:53:41journey together. And you know, we we
1:53:43did [ __ ] everything we could to make
1:53:45that album sound as good as possible.
1:53:47Dude, that was a game changer album.
1:53:50That that album changed everything for
1:53:52me and my generation growing up. I mean,
1:53:54a new standard was set for sure. And
1:53:57I've always looked at Ride the Lightning
1:53:58and Master of Puppets as, you know, one
1:54:01big culmination of time. It's like I
1:54:04call the New Testament and Old Testament
1:54:06of Thrash is what those those albums
1:54:08were. I also feel that that Master of
1:54:10Puppets is more or less
1:54:13uh it's it's right the lightning uh like
1:54:17purified. It's like right with Riot and
1:54:21Master, we did we took it all the way to
1:54:23the limit of what we can do going that
1:54:25way. And that's why I just different
1:54:28because we didn't want to do another
1:54:31Master of Puppets. So, we wanted to try
1:54:32something new. They actually was
1:54:35intentional and and I was like, that's a
1:54:38[ __ ] bad idea.
1:54:41So, so was Justice an intentional step
1:54:44away from that or was it a culmination
1:54:46of the new studio and the lack of Cliff?
1:54:49No, they were trying something new and
1:54:52yeah, probably also because they didn't
1:54:54have Cliff anymore in the old days. Uh,
1:54:58we wouldn't I mean they wouldn't decide
1:55:01on anything without running it by cliff.
1:55:04So they were probably missing their
1:55:07mentor quite a you know a little bit in
1:55:10terms of music. So Right. Yeah. But you
1:55:15know you mentioned the uh the intro to
1:55:17Damage Incorporated being Cliff bringing
1:55:19that's something Cliff would bring into
1:55:21the equation. Yeah. And it's a sum total
1:55:24of what 20 seconds of music but it sets
1:55:27the tone for the entire song. It seemed
1:55:29like that was missing on R on Justice.
1:55:32Yeah. I mean uh Yeah.
1:55:34Uh they're all they're all my children.
1:55:36So I I find it pretty hard to, you know,
1:55:40to say that I love one more than the
1:55:42other. Um I know for a fact that and
1:55:46Justice for All is the album in the
1:55:49world that has made most people go, I
1:55:52want to make a band, right? I read that
1:55:55somewhere. It's the It's the album that
1:55:57has inspired most people to make a band.
1:56:01So I'm I'm guessing a it kind of re it
1:56:05kind of resonated with a lot of people.
1:56:08Um I wish Cliff was still here. Um I
1:56:13would have loved to have seen where that
1:56:15would have taken the man, but I
1:56:18mean we we can't undo that. So I think
1:56:22they're doing pretty well. I guess you
1:56:25can equate Ride the Lightning Master and
1:56:27Justice as to the Clint Eastwoods uh
1:56:30trilogy series.
1:56:32There's a few dollars more in the good,
1:56:34bad, and the ugly. I see it in rock
1:56:37history.
1:56:39Yeah. So, we're about done,
1:56:43right? Or I know we could talk all
1:56:46night, but you know,
1:56:49thank you so much. Appreciate the time
1:56:51and all the knowledge and thank you for
1:56:54for our teen years over here with great
1:56:56quality metal.
1:56:58Thank you so much.
1:57:00Thanks for giving me something to drink
1:57:02to. Give me something to drink to while
1:57:04I was driving.
1:57:07Oh, my mom always said, she goes, you
1:57:09know, when I was playing football and
1:57:10that stuff, you can you can play sports,
1:57:13but the musical instrument you'll have
1:57:14the rest of your life. And growing up in
1:57:16those 80s with those albums. Thank you,
1:57:19my friend. Thanks. Yeah, it's really
1:57:23appreciate it, guys. It's no surprise I
1:57:25wasn't around back then, but your your
1:57:28albums have honestly like they made me
1:57:30nostalgic for that I wasn't around and I
1:57:33appreciate that. Yeah, that's the good
1:57:35thing about being in this zone. We've
1:57:36seen all the good bands live. Amen to
1:57:39that.
1:57:41Well, thanks a lot everybody.
1:57:44Thank you. Thank you, sir. Who knows?
1:57:46Thank you so much. We might do this
1:57:48later. I don't know. I'll talk to Zach
1:57:50about that. But uh it was great seeing
1:57:52you all and I hope you enjoy the master
1:57:54class. I simply can't wait to show it to
1:57:57you. I'm actually impressed of how well
1:58:00it went. I was
1:58:02surprised. But yeah, we'll see.
1:58:05Excellent. Thank you.
1:58:08Thank you so much. Thank you so much
1:58:09everybody. Thank you sir. Thank you Zach
1:58:12for running things. Bye bye Fleming.

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