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To Reinvent Your Career, Start by Imagining a New You — Transcript

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0:00[ROCK MUSIC]
0:13ADI IGNATIUS: Welcome to Harvard Business Review's
0:15"The New World of Work."
0:16I'm Adi Ignatius, Editor in Chief of Harvard Business
0:18Review.
0:19Each week, I put on the white shirt and the blue blazer,
0:22and I interview a CEO, a thought leader,
0:24or somebody else who can inspire and educate us on the changing
0:28dynamics of the workplace.
0:29Our viewers come from all over the world,
0:32and they work at everything from Fortune 500 corporations
0:35to fledgling startups, from family businesses
0:38to nonprofits.
0:39The aim of this show is to provide insights for everyone
0:42as they navigate this transitional moment in how
0:45we organize ourselves in the business world.
0:48On today's episode, we have another great guest,
0:50Herminia Ibarra, a Professor of Organizational Behavior
0:54at London Business School.
0:56I'm going to come back with a proper introduction for her
0:58in just a moment.
0:59But first, let's hear from our good friends
1:00at KPMG, who are our sponsors for this season of "The New
1:05World of Work."
1:06NARRATOR: At KPMG, it's our people
1:08who make the difference for our clients, talented teams,
1:12leveraging the right technology to uncover insights
1:15that illuminate opportunity, ready to make
1:17the difference together.
1:18[UPBEAT MUSIC]
1:23ADI IGNATIUS: Now, before we get started,
1:25if you're an HBR subscriber watching this,
1:27you can head to hbr.org/newsletters to sign up
1:31for the New World of Work newsletter,
1:32where I offer an inside look each week at each of these
1:34interviews and talk about some of the most interesting
1:37takeaways.
1:37Also, if you like content like this,
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1:43The address is hbr.org/subscriptions.
1:46And if you like hearing smart people talk about some
1:48of the same issues we discussed in
1:50this show, be sure to check out our flagship podcast,
1:53IdeaCast, available wherever you get your podcasts.
1:56And remember, you can watch previous episodes
1:58of this show on YouTube or right here on LinkedIn and Facebook.
2:02So my guest today is Herminia Ibarra,
2:05a Professor of Organizational Behavior at London Business
2:08School.
2:09Her work has focused for years on leadership
2:12and organizational transformation.
2:14And she is increasingly becoming the go-to person
2:17on the topic of career transitions.
2:19Herminia is a prolific author, and two of her books
2:22are coming out next month in updated editions.
2:25One is Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader,
2:29and the other is Working Identity--
2:31Unconventional Strategies for Reinventing Your Career.
2:34Full disclosure, HBR Press is the publisher of Both books.
2:38So, Herminia, welcome.
2:39HERMINIA IBARRA: Thank you so much.
2:41Hi, Adi.
2:42It's great to see you.
2:43ADI IGNATIUS: It's great to see you as well
2:44and great to have you on the show.
2:45As I said, I want to talk a lot about career transitions.
2:49But I want to give a little context first.
2:51And I know your view is that this
2:53is an era of constant career reinvention.
2:57And I want to hear you talk a little bit about why
2:59you think that's so.
3:00HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, and you know
3:02I've been studying career reinvention for over 20 years
3:06now.
3:06The first edition of Working Identity was 20 years ago.
3:09And the trends just keep accelerating.
3:13I think, if anything, we are reinventing ourselves
3:16and reinventing our careers more so.
3:19Just really quickly, there's four things that are really
3:21contributing to this.
3:22We're living longer and longer.
3:24And so as we live longer, we don't
3:26want to have a long slide from age 40
3:30because we could easily be working another 40 years.
3:34And so we want to make the most of it.
3:35That's one.
3:37Two is technology.
3:38I don't have to say much about that,
3:40but it is changing everything.
3:42It is disrupting jobs.
3:43It is creating new jobs.
3:44It's allowing us to work from anywhere.
3:47And so it creates a very interesting context
3:50for being able to reinvent yourself.
3:52The third one is our companies, organizations, our workplaces.
3:57They are constantly disrupted too.
3:59That creates opportunities, but that also creates challenges.
4:03We've seen a huge wave of layoffs
4:05recently in the tech world, for example.
4:07Now people in the financial sector
4:09are struggling with high interest rates and what
4:11that means for their products, and the list goes on.
4:13And so we don't stay in jobs as long
4:15as we used to, either by choice or by necessity
4:20as we are asked to leave them.
4:22And the fourth of the trends-- and this one's
4:24been going a long time-- is that what we expect out of a job
4:27has changed a lot.
4:28It used to be providing a stable living.
4:31We want everything from our jobs.
4:33We want passion.
4:34We want purpose.
4:36We want self-fulfillment.
4:37We want flexibility.
4:39We want so much from them, and we're
4:40increasingly impatient and wanting to move on
4:43if we don't get those things.
4:45ADI IGNATIUS: OK, so that's good context.
4:47And by the way, if you're watching this,
4:48if you have questions, your own questions for Herminia,
4:50put them into the chat, and I will try to get to as many
4:53as possible later in the show.
4:56Right, so if career reinvention, if the need for reinvention
5:00is such a standard aspect of the contemporary business world,
5:05why are we having so much trouble still trying
5:08to carry it out?
5:09HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, and that's
5:10the one thing I've learned.
5:11It's really hard.
5:11It's really hard.
5:12It takes longer than people think.
5:14A couple things-- one is most people--
5:16this is what I learned first.
5:18Most people know what they don't want to do anymore,
5:20but they don't know exactly what they want to do instead.
5:23And since they don't have the answer--
5:24and I'm going to come back to this--
5:26they don't know what to do.
5:27They don't know how to search when they don't know exactly
5:29what they're searching from.
5:30So that's one.
5:31Another one is what we do is who we are.
5:33It's such an important sense-- it's part of our identity.
5:36And even losing a job that we didn't like
5:40is a huge loss because it was what we did.
5:43It was the people we spent time with.
5:45It was what structured our time.
5:47We built up to that.
5:48We invested in that.
5:50And so the sense of psychological loss
5:53is a big barrier.
5:54The last one, we can talk more about
5:56if you like, but increasingly, particularly for mid-career on,
6:00when we change careers, we're moving
6:01into something different.
6:02It's not a linear, more of the same at a higher level.
6:06It's something different.
6:07And those transitions, I call them underinstitutionalized.
6:11And what I mean by that is that the steps are not clear.
6:15You don't know how long it's going to take.
6:17You're not doing it with other people in lockstep.
6:20It's not clear who the role models are.
6:22If you want to be a partner in a law firm,
6:24you know what the steps are.
6:26Might be hard, but you know what the steps
6:27are and the time frames.
6:28If you're a lawyer who wants to be, say, an entrepreneur
6:33in the arts, that's underinstitutionalized.
6:35There isn't particularly an educational program
6:38that you go to, or specific different people
6:41move into that in very different ways.
6:44And so it's not clear.
6:46It's more uncharted.
6:48It's unclear how to go about it.
6:50ADI IGNATIUS: So I want to come back
6:51to the first point you talked about,
6:53which is that we're not that good maybe
6:56at figuring out what our possibilities are,
6:58and I identify with that.
6:59I mean, most of the jobs I've had have--
7:03if somebody has come to me and said,
7:05would you like to do x, and even when it's a career shift,
7:08it's like, I didn't think of it.
7:09Somebody else did.
7:10And so it's worked out fine.
7:13I love my job.
7:14But there's a lack of agency that I think a lot of people
7:17feel in terms of getting control--
7:19what I want to do with my work life, with my career.
7:22And is there advice on how to think clearly
7:25about possible next steps?
7:27HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah.
7:28I've got loads of it.
7:30One of the things is we've got to get away from the thinking
7:33that if you don't know the answer, if you don't know
7:36the goal or the target career, you should just
7:39wait and reflect until you've figured it out in your head,
7:41because that's actually not how we figure it out.
7:44I mean, it's great when people come to you with propositions.
7:47It can be dangerous, too, because sometimes those things
7:50are too close to what you were doing already.
7:53And if you do want to make a change,
7:54they may not be the best fit.
7:57But much, much more important than trying to figure it out
8:00is to experiment and to instead of thinking,
8:03what's the one ideal job for me, what might be 10?
8:06Or what might be six organizations?
8:08Or what might be five different pathways I could take?
8:12And start exploring them in parallel,
8:15simultaneously, because you learn as you go along.
8:18Sometimes the things you thought you wanted are not exactly--
8:21don't pan out to be all you dream them to be, for example.
8:25Sometimes it's harder, and it takes longer,
8:27and you've got to do something else in parallel.
8:29So the first clear bit of advice and way
8:33of doing this successfully is come up
8:35with a list of possibilities--
8:37I call them your possible selves--
8:39and start exploring one, two, ideally more than one
8:43in parallel.
8:46ADI IGNATIUS: So I had a conversation with a headhunter
8:49at one point, and they were asking me about my job.
8:51And I said, well, it ticks all my boxes.
8:53I like this aspect.
8:54I like this.
8:55I feel good about it.
8:56I feel like I'm doing something important.
8:58And I said, and everyone feels that, right?
9:00And the person said, nobody feels that.
9:02So if you're in a situation like that, you're very lucky.
9:06I'm interested, and you sort of hinted at this
9:08before about the extent to which people
9:11feel satisfied in their work.
9:14Like, how much satisfaction can we expect from our work?
9:18It is work, and it's not necessarily our life,
9:22although it's a part of it.
9:23From your experience, your research, how many of us
9:26feel generally satisfied in our jobs?
9:30And is that the norm?
9:32Or do we have to accept something less?
9:34HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, I mean, the general surveys
9:37show a lot of dissatisfaction, and that comes and goes.
9:41There's periods of that, and there's sectors.
9:44It's important to think that every--
9:46a job is not monolithic.
9:48A job comes-- with my job, I love my job.
9:51It ticks all my boxes too, but there's parts of my job
9:53I really don't like that feel like grunt work.
9:55And there's parts that I love, and every job is like that.
9:58So it really is a matter of proportion is,
10:00by and large, are you mostly doing the things
10:03that you find fulfilling?
10:05There's lots of people out there who are not satisfied.
10:09They may have been.
10:10But over time, either they have changed,
10:12or their organization has changed,
10:14or the people with whom they work have changed,
10:17and they're no longer happy about those elements.
10:20They don't feel as challenged.
10:21They don't like and respect the people they work with.
10:25They don't align with the organization's mission.
10:29All of those things create a dissatisfaction.
10:31And my sense from talking to my students,
10:34from doing my research, is that there's
10:35a lot of people who are dissatisfied out there today.
10:39ADI IGNATIUS: So I want to build on that, actually,
10:41with a question that's come in from Hassam in Rotterdam.
10:45And the question is, "How do you envision
10:48the evolution of the, quote unquote, 'employee
10:50experience' in a world increasingly dominated
10:53by hybrid work models?"
10:55HERMINIA IBARRA: [LAUGHS] You know, it's so funny.
10:58I was also looking on the website that
11:01was announcing this talk, and that's
11:03all anybody wants to talk about is how's it
11:05going to play out with hybrid.
11:07And the thing is I do not have a crystal ball.
11:11I don't know.
11:12All I know is that organizations are still
11:14trying to figure it out.
11:15And they're still playing with different ways
11:18and trying to understand the employee experience.
11:20But I really-- that's a question I can't answer.
11:25ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah, well, we'll keep
11:27talking about it show after show,
11:29and eventually we'll get some knowledge.
11:31So all right, here's another question from a viewer.
11:33This is from Eli from Switzerland.
11:35So it's an interesting question.
11:37So how should we think about the balance--
11:39if you switch careers, you jeopardize
11:44some of the seniority you built up
11:46and the benefits and positives that you've accrued.
11:50How can we avoid that?
11:52Or how can we think about that trade-off?
11:55HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, I mean, that's another big question.
11:57Am I going to have to start at the bottom?
11:59Or is there a way not to do that?
12:01It depends on what you go on to do next, right?
12:05One person I've been interviewing extensively
12:07over the last couple of years was chief compliance officer
12:10at her organization, and she's become a documentary filmmaker.
12:14She had to start at the bottom as an apprentice, right?
12:18So it depends.
12:20Other people move into something that's
12:22more adjacent, maybe doing it more entrepreneurially,
12:25and they don't have to.
12:26They can really leverage the skill set and the experience
12:30that they've had, albeit in a very different role
12:32and setting.
12:33So it depends a lot.
12:36People try to solve this by going back to school,
12:40and that can help a lot by kind of rounding you out.
12:43But what everyone forgets is that there's also--
12:47it's not always up and up.
12:48So you're saying, OK, I'm here.
12:50If I make a change, I'm going to be here,
12:52whereas I can continue moving up,
12:54and that may well not be the case.
12:56The world is changing.
12:58Jobs are disappearing.
13:00And if you're not happy and productive in what you're
13:03doing, the curve could well be declining too,
13:07and you've got to take that into account.
13:09ADI IGNATIUS: So the other topic that
13:11seems to be on everyone's mind is AI, and specifically
13:14generative AI.
13:15And I don't necessarily have a view on this,
13:18but this feels like one of these existential--
13:22I mean, we're always wondering, will technology take our jobs?
13:24And sometimes it does.
13:26With generative AI, we're all asking that
13:30with a heightened sense of concern.
13:33And are you thinking about this and how all these
13:37topics that you research--
13:39how this changes--
13:40HERMINIA IBARRA: Oh, yeah.
13:40ADI IGNATIUS: --or doesn't change or accelerates
13:42everything you're thinking about?
13:44HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah.
13:45I mean, we're thinking about it as an institution
13:47at London Business School.
13:48I'm trying to use it as much as I can.
13:50I'm interested in how it's changing people's jobs.
13:52You know, it's funny.
13:53Today, right before this, my 18-year-old walked in and said,
13:56you know, Mom, we're talking about this in school.
13:58And I think I'm always going to remember this day because it's
14:02going to be like-- for you, if you remember
14:05the first time-- your first cell phone, or he says,
14:08it's going to change everything.
14:11And that was in the context of his school trying to contain it
14:14and not allowing them to use it in any which
14:17way, which, of course, he felt was not
14:19in keeping with the future.
14:22But it's another one of those.
14:25From my perspective, what I'm interested in is how is it
14:29going to transform how people work together, who does what,
14:33what organizations emerge.
14:35We don't know the answers to those questions.
14:39We know we need to be asking big questions about alignment
14:42with values.
14:43We know from the whole wave of digital transformation
14:48that there's the technological part.
14:50But then there's the whole other part, which is, how is it used?
14:53And is the organization able to use it?
14:56Are people able to adapt and make the most of it?
15:00All of those things remain to be seen.
15:03But certainly, it is worth experimenting with,
15:06keeping an eye on it, studying, asking the good questions.
15:11ADI IGNATIUS: So here's a question related to technology.
15:13This is from Bhaskaran in Bangalore.
15:16As I said, we have viewers all over the world.
15:19And Bhaskaran says, "After working for 21 years in HR,
15:23they decided to move to a smaller organization,
15:25expecting it to be nimble, agile, and all that.
15:28It turned out to be highly toxic."
15:30So the question Bhaskaran is saying they long
15:34for a new role and organization but have this constant fear
15:37of uncertainty.
15:39How does one deal with this inevitable fear of uncertainty
15:43when one is thinking about making a move?
15:46HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, completely understandable.
15:49And unfortunately, often, the process
15:52of making a career change can be one step forward,
15:55two steps back, and so on.
15:57Now you've learned something, and I
15:58think part of what you've learned
16:00is that you need to really research much more
16:03carefully the contexts in which you're going to
16:06and get a flavor of them as much as you possibly can.
16:12Now you've learned to inquire much more about culture,
16:14to talk to the people, to research the organization.
16:17All of that is really important.
16:19It's one of the reasons why, in the studies that I have
16:22done, oftentimes, the uncertainty of,
16:25I don't know what I want--
16:26I don't know how long this is going to take--
16:28starts to get at people.
16:29And then all of a sudden, an option comes up, an offer,
16:32with the smaller, more nimble firm.
16:34And it seems it's the savior, so I'm going to take it,
16:38because otherwise I'm still in the throes of,
16:41what am I going to do, without researching it as much as we
16:45might, without really looking into what
16:48is it that matters to me, and it's really important
16:51to make time for that.
16:53So you're going to need--
16:54in any case, you're out of there.
16:56And so by necessity, you're going to deal with uncertainty,
17:00but maybe research a bit more carefully.
17:02ADI IGNATIUS: And I feel like we're talking about two things.
17:05One is how to think about a career transition moment,
17:09how to be proactive and smart about that, but then
17:12about, all right, you've made the move.
17:14How do you transition successfully
17:16into this new role?
17:17And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about that.
17:20OK, we've made the move from A Company to B Company.
17:24Then how long should we give ourselves?
17:26How tough should we be on ourselves?
17:28Should we read The First 90 Days?
17:30I mean, how do we transition successfully?
17:32HERMINIA IBARRA: The First 90 Days
17:33remains the bible on that topic, right?
17:35So that one, I give to Michael Watkins,
17:38and it's really-- and what he says to start with,
17:42with the first 90 days, which also goes
17:44to the previous question, is the first 90 days
17:47actually starts way before, with doing your homework
17:49and talking to people and finding out the stakeholders.
17:53Michael has this lovely idea about the--
17:55I think it's a five conversations
17:57that you need to be able to have with your boss
18:00or whoever your key stakeholders are about what
18:02the expectations are, about how you're going to be measured,
18:05about the key topics, so that you're going in recognizing
18:11the interdependence between your success
18:13and that of other people in the organization.
18:17ADI IGNATIUS: So I want to shift gears a little bit,
18:19although it's all sort of related, to talk
18:22about authenticity, another topic
18:24that you have researched and written a lot about
18:26and are kind of an expert on.
18:29I feel like most conversations that I have about leadership--
18:32at some point, it evolves into a conversation about the need
18:35for total authenticity at work.
18:38My sense is you have a more complicated take on all this.
18:40So how should leaders think about the authenticity
18:44question?
18:45HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, and this total authenticity stuff
18:48drives me nuts, you know?
18:50What is total authenticity?
18:52Is it say whatever crosses your mind?
18:55Is it dress how you might dress at home on a Sunday
18:59to go take a walk in the park?
19:00What does that mean?
19:03I think there's a lot of fluff in all of this.
19:06What's the definition of authenticity?
19:09Is it a trait?
19:10Is it an outcome, a process of learning about yourself
19:14and trying to be as much yourself as possible?
19:17I don't think it's a trait.
19:18I think it is a process of learning.
19:20And for me, the question is, how can you--
19:24we want to be authentic.
19:26Nobody likes a fake.
19:28Nobody follows a fake.
19:29It's bad for your mental health.
19:31So I'm all for it.
19:33I'm just-- the question I ask is, how can you
19:37define authenticity in a way that doesn't condemn you
19:40to being as you always have been?
19:42We grow.
19:43We evolve.
19:44We're multiple.
19:45We have different facets, different aspects
19:47of who we are that play out.
19:49And we need to be able to express that complexity
19:53and also ask, what does it mean to be authentic
19:56when I'm learning?
19:58It's great when it's habitual behavior.
20:00You know how to do that.
20:01But when you're learning, you haven't figured it out yet.
20:04And people tend to confuse habitual behavior
20:07with authenticity.
20:08The minute they're out of the comfort zone, oh,
20:11that's not really me.
20:12I'm not so authentic.
20:14The comment usually is, that's not me.
20:17Well, it's not you now, and you haven't tried it.
20:21And sometimes trying these things that help you to learn
20:25feel inauthentic.
20:27And if that's the price of learning,
20:28I think it's well worth paying it.
20:31ADI IGNATIUS: So I want to push on that a little
20:33because when some people talk about being authentic at work
20:37or having that goal of it, I think
20:39they want to be open about who they are, their personal life,
20:44maybe their sexual orientation.
20:47If they have a kooky sense of humor,
20:49they want to be able to bring that.
20:52So, yes, on the one hand, absolutely, you
20:54need to learn new skills and soft skills and hard skills.
20:58But then people feel, anyway, they
21:02would derive a deep sense of happiness
21:04if they could be, quote unquote, "authentic" at work in the ways
21:07that I was talking about.
21:08HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah.
21:09See, for me, that's much more about sense
21:12of belonging and being able to figure out, do I belong here?
21:16Or do I have to hide what's important about me
21:18in order to be effective here?
21:21The thing with-- back to the bringing
21:24your whole self to work, workplace relationships
21:27are relationships.
21:29And in relationships, people get to know each other.
21:32And the minute that you meet somebody,
21:34you do not tell them everything about you--
21:37personal life, professional life, strengths, doubts,
21:41anguishes, all those.
21:42You don't do that.
21:43You get to know people.
21:45And it's very important that we treat authenticity in that way.
21:49We're building relationships.
21:51And as we build relationships.
21:53We want to be able to disclose-- self-disclosure
21:56is what builds relationships.
21:58So that's really important.
22:00But it's not about, in every moment,
22:03being able to broadcast everything about myself
22:07in a way that doesn't respect the building of relationships
22:11at work.
22:12ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah.
22:13I mean, I think some of it is generational.
22:15I think my generation tended not to broadcast everything.
22:18I think some of the subsequent generations
22:21are more comfortable with that, expect that,
22:22and are comfortable with that.
22:24And part of the intergenerational workplace
22:27dynamic is all of us being comfortable with that.
22:29HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, the other thing about the complexity
22:32is that, in the workplace, we're also
22:35assessing each other for potential, who's
22:37going to do well, who's going to advance.
22:39And we talk a lot about authenticity
22:42in the context of being able to be vulnerable
22:44and to express vulnerability.
22:46But vulnerability doesn't get coded the same way
22:50when it's expressed by a man versus a woman.
22:53Or assertiveness doesn't get coded the same way
22:55when it's expressed by a Black person versus a white person.
22:58And all of these complexities come
23:00into play, which we really need to take into account because we
23:05each want to put our best foot forward and be
23:10able to accomplish our goals within the organizations
23:13where we work.
23:15ADI IGNATIUS: So what is the ideal profile
23:18of a leader in 2023?
23:20What are the skills or the experience or whatever
23:22that you think matter most?
23:24HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, well, you guys at HBR
23:26have been putting out the headlines on this,
23:29and there's a very common drumbeat,
23:31and it's been on for a while, which
23:32is about the importance of soft skills and people skills,
23:35right?
23:36And we've been talking about them for a long time--
23:39the pandemic accelerated that--
23:42and really, all the complexity of leading today,
23:45because ultimately, what we've seen in a really deep way
23:51is that the problems that face us in organizations-- they're
23:53big problems.
23:54They're adaptive problems.
23:56That means there isn't a simple solution to them,
23:58and you need to harness everyone's energy and brains
24:03and hearts in order to solve them.
24:05And so you really have to be able to get people on board,
24:08get them to tell you what they think,
24:10get them to work outside their own comfort zones,
24:14and all of that requires a set of people skills that most
24:20managers today who are successful
24:22and who get to the top haven't necessarily
24:25developed because they have been rewarded for delivering
24:28results in any which way.
24:30And delivering results is still really important.
24:33And so what ends up happening is, as people get more senior,
24:37and they start looking promising,
24:39they get a lot of nudges, which is, it's really time
24:42now to think about how to cultivate
24:44this other side, which has more to do with how you connect
24:48with people, how you bring out the best in them,
24:50how you create a context in which there
24:52is psychological safety.
24:54All of that has become much more important,
24:56not because it's nice to have, but because the requirements
24:59for learning in our organizations
25:01have become so much greater.
25:04ADI IGNATIUS: And is your sense that many leaders have
25:08those skills or that very few do?
25:10I mean, from your research, what's your sense?
25:12HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, well, I've
25:14got a couple of different bases of knowledge on this.
25:17One is the executives that I teach.
25:19And they'll all say, I'm great at getting accountability
25:25and driving results, and I'm a bit of a micromanager,
25:28and my coaching skills are not so great.
25:30That's my most common profile.
25:33And as you probably know, we worked on this with a couple
25:36of colleagues from Spencer Stuart,
25:38which led to an article last year, "The Leadership Odyssey"
25:41in HBR, where we were able to use Spencer
25:46Stuart's recruitment data for the C-suite to see--
25:49I think the way we framed it is most
25:53of the executives in succession processes, so candidates,
25:57had plenty of developmental opportunities
26:00when it came to these people skills.
26:02And then we ended up having a look
26:04at how it is that they come to recognize that it will really
26:08stand in the way of what they want to accomplish
26:10if they don't develop these skills
26:11and how they go about it.
26:13ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah.
26:13So one topic I want to make sure we speak about--
26:17and I'm sort of changing direction here,
26:19but it's another area you look at, and that's networking,
26:22and I know that's important to our viewers.
26:25Networking seems simple enough, but a lot of us
26:28struggle to even start to build effective and meaningful
26:33networks.
26:33Do you have thoughts on how to do this better?
26:36HERMINIA IBARRA: And quick ad, just a brand-new
26:39article on HBR yesterday on the challenges of networking
26:43as an executive-- what is it that makes it particularly
26:46hard for senior people to network,
26:48who have their own challenges?
26:50Anyway, this topic is of endless fascination
26:52to me, Adi, because I started working
26:55on this in the '80s when I was doing my PhD research.
26:57So I have been following it since.
27:00The headline is, most of us are bad at it.
27:03Most of us are bad at it.
27:05Some people are very good, but most of us are bad.
27:08And you can look to social psychology
27:10to explain a big share of the why.
27:14And the big share of the why is that the way
27:16we're built, we are drawn to build spontaneously,
27:22to build relationships with people who are like us
27:25and with whom we bump into on a regular basis
27:28because their office is next door.
27:30So the way I summarize is the mechanisms
27:33are similarity and proximity.
27:34That's what builds our networks.
27:36We're narcissistic and lazy.
27:37We like people like us.
27:38It's easier to talk to them.
27:40And since we don't have a lot of time,
27:42we're going to get to know the people who
27:43are easy to get to know because they're next door.
27:45And that means our networks are insular.
27:47They're not good.
27:48They don't help us get new jobs.
27:50They don't help us step up to bigger roles.
27:53And so we've got to work on it.
27:54But working on it is really aversive too,
27:56and you've published some great research on how that works.
27:59It makes us feel a little bit dirty, a little bit
28:03disingenuous, a little bit utilitarian-- using people
28:07when we approach building relationships in a more
28:10strategic way.
28:11It gets in the way of our sense of meritocracy.
28:14It gets in the way of our sense of self-reliance.
28:16But we know from my research and that of lots of other people
28:19that they are vital for getting jobs, changing careers,
28:24and being effective and innovative
28:26as a leader in the roles which you have already.
28:30ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah, OK, so any tips
28:31on how to build a network that isn't the person
28:34in the cubicle next to you?
28:35HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, make that effort.
28:37The tips are all really simple-- make an effort, join a project,
28:40take a course, use an extracurricular activity,
28:43make referrals, connect to people, speak at events.
28:46Don't do all of it all at the same time,
28:49but pick a few things.
28:50The thing is we don't make time for it
28:52because, just like in your example,
28:55you're waiting for stuff to come to you.
28:57These are things that you need to take the initiative on.
28:59But it's very easy.
29:00A great one is just pick a few people you've lost track of.
29:05Connect to them.
29:06Write to them.
29:07Say, hey, I'm thinking about this.
29:09It'd be great to catch up with you
29:11and have a conversation about it.
29:13How about it?
29:14Very easy to do.
29:15It's just that we don't.
29:17ADI IGNATIUS: I want to come back to,
29:19before we run out of time, to one thing you talked about,
29:21which was--
29:23I forget how you phrased it, but really
29:25constant learning, constant adaptation.
29:27And I think a lot of us are trained to get that next job,
29:33and then we get, we have it.
29:34And we bring our old selves.
29:37And I thought it was interesting that you're
29:41talking about we need to continually evolve
29:43and that authenticity is sort of an elastic concept
29:46in that sense.
29:47So talk a little bit, then, more about, OK, we're in a role,
29:52maybe as a leader, but maybe a manager
29:55in the middle, whatever.
29:57How do we adapt?
29:59How do we evolve?
30:00How do we not just get stuck in that routine
30:02that we bring from day one?
30:04How do we keep evolving?
30:07HERMINIA IBARRA: Yeah, OK.
30:08So there's a life cycle to all of this.
30:11So one thing I would say is you've just started a new role.
30:13I wouldn't worry about reinventing yourself.
30:16You've been hired for who you are.
30:18Exploit that and make sure to connect to the stakeholders
30:22and everything else.
30:22But you're not looking to reinvent yourself here.
30:25You're really looking to leverage everything
30:27that you bring to that role.
30:29What people forget is that expectations of you
30:34change quickly, and environments also change quickly.
30:37So the danger point is really more a year
30:40or two or three, depending on how fast-moving your situation
30:43is, when you think you've got it covered,
30:47but people have stepped up in their expectations of you,
30:50or the environment has changed a lot.
30:52And what becomes really important here--
30:54the main thing I say to people is,
30:56think about how you're defining your job,
30:58where you're spending your time, what you're allocating time to,
31:01and can you think of it more as a portfolio in which some
31:05slivers of your time, you're going
31:06to spend learning new things, exploring new things,
31:10getting involved in projects that give you
31:12a more strategic view of the organization, something
31:14adjacent to what you normally do,
31:16but something that really allows you to keep expanding
31:19the frontier as opposed to settling into a comfort
31:22zone that's going to make you much more vulnerable
31:26to the "what got you here won't get you there" phenomenon.
31:28ADI IGNATIUS: Yeah.
31:29HERMINIA IBARRA: Does that answer your question?
31:30ADI IGNATIUS: That answered my question.
31:32HERMINIA IBARRA: And obviously, working your network--
31:35people get comfortable.
31:36There's a set of usual suspects that you keep turning to,
31:39no fresh blood, and you become very insular in your views.
31:43ADI IGNATIUS: So, Herminia, we're out of time,
31:45but I want to really thank you for being on the show.
31:47It's great to see you again and great to connect
31:49in front of lots of people who are contributing
31:52a lot of questions and are very engaged.
31:54So thank you for being on the show.
31:55HERMINIA IBARRA: It was great.
31:56Thank you so much, Adi.
31:57Hope to see you in the flesh very soon.
31:59ADI IGNATIUS: Sounds great.
32:00All right, so that was Herminia Ibarra,
32:02again a Professor at London Business School.
32:05I want to thank all of you for joining us today.
32:07Just a reminder, you can watch previous episodes
32:09of this show on YouTube or right here on LinkedIn and Facebook.
32:13My guest next week--
32:14so that's Wednesday, September 13 at 12:00 noon Eastern time,
32:18will be Andrew McAfee, a Principal
32:20Research Scientist at the MIT Sloan School of Management.
32:24His research focuses on how information technology changes
32:27how companies perform, organize themselves, and compete.
32:31And he's the author of the forthcoming book, The Geek
32:33Way--
32:34The Radical Mindset that Drives Extraordinary Results.
32:37We'll talk about how the geeks have transformed not just
32:40the technology world, but also corporate culture
32:43in our business world.
32:45So he would argue they've done so effectively.
32:48So tune in next week.
32:49Now, if you're an HBR subscriber watching this, again,
32:51head to hbr.org/newsletters to sign up for the New World
32:55of Work newsletter, where I offer an inside look each week
32:57at these interviews and talk about some of the most
33:00interesting ideas that come out of them.
33:01And if you like content like this,
33:03why not subscribe to our magazine and website?
33:05The address is hbr.org/subscriptions.
33:08And finally, I want to once again thank our friends
33:10at KPMG, who are our sponsors for this season of "The New
33:14World of Work."
33:16So thank you all for tuning in today.
33:18I am Adi Ignatius, and this is "The New World of Work."
33:21[JAZZ MUSIC]

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