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Thomas Sowell: Black Rednecks and White Liberals, Hoover Institution [Enhanced] [Complete] — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:18this week on Q&A Our Guest is Thomas
0:21Soul senior fellow at the Hoover
0:24[Music]
0:27institution Thomas Soul you said
0:30in an interview with American Enterprise
0:33Institute some time ago after quoting
0:36Eric Hoffer is saying intellectuals
0:39cannot operate at room temperature you
0:42said there always has to be a crisis
0:44some terrible reason why their superior
0:47wisdom and virtue must be imposed on the
0:49unthinking masses yes you can go back
0:52over the last 100 years you can go back
0:54to eugenics in the early part of the
0:5520th century you can go back to
0:57Keynesian economics uh you can come
1:00forward to the environmental movement
1:02there always is something which requires
1:04them to substitute their wisdom and
1:07virtue for our lack of understanding
1:10aren't you an
1:11intellectual oh I suppose I've been
1:13accused of so many things there no I I
1:15don't say all
1:17intellectuals what is an intellectual I
1:20guess the best definition I've heard is
1:21from Hayak he says it's a secondhand
1:23dealer in ideas that the vast majority
1:26of intellectuals don't really originate
1:28any ideas but but they uh they pedal
1:31ideas uh that other people have
1:34originated um and that gives them a
1:37great deal of freedom because ideas are
1:39so malleable words are so malleable uh
1:42reality is not malleable and so they can
1:44believe in all sorts of things uh which
1:47have no realistic possibility and which
1:49have failed time and again in history uh
1:52but because they know how to rephrase it
1:54and repackage it it can just keep right
1:56on going if I read correctly you're
1:58going to be 75 this year yes how many
2:02years have you been thinking and
2:04writing oh gosh I've been published
2:07since
2:101960 has it changed at all the way you
2:14learn gosh not not really I mean I I
2:16learned both from reading but and from
2:19experience and of course what I believe
2:21has changed radically since I was a uh a
2:24Marxist in my
2:2520s uh I'm surprised though when I go
2:28back cuz I keep old letters things I'm
2:30surprised how many of the values I had
2:32are still the same values it's just that
2:35now I see that they have to be reached
2:36by an entirely different math method
2:39what method well at one time for example
2:41I thought that if the government took
2:42control of various things they could do
2:44a lot for particularly for people who
2:45are poor less fortunate one way or
2:48another over time I've learned that uh
2:50that really does not work I mean it
2:52sounds better it doesn't work um just
2:56recently I came across one number which
2:58should have should have destroyed the
2:59whole notion of planning and it was that
3:01there were 24 million prices in the
3:03Soviet Union now there's no human being
3:05capable of setting 24 million prices
3:08properly especially when you realize
3:10that each price has to be set properly
3:12in relation to the other 24 million
3:14prices so you can't even break it down
3:17and have say 24,000 people each one with
3:19a th000 prices because the point is they
3:21all have to mes relative to one another
3:23but if you have a country of a couple
3:25hundred million people and each person
3:27keeps track of only a relatively few
3:28prices that affect that person then then
3:31then it can
3:33work we're at the Hoover institution
3:35what is it Hoover institution is a think
3:37tank uh established originally just as
3:40an archive for all the tons of material
3:42that Herbert Hoover collected when he
3:44was traveling around Europe after the
3:45first World War uh during a time of
3:47starvation where he uh set up this
3:49program to feed millions of people
3:51across Europe and when he came back he
3:53dumped all his stuff here at Stanford uh
3:55and set up this archive and then at some
3:57point Glenn Campbell one of the
3:59directors
4:00uh decided to turn it into a think tank
4:02and he put it on the map as that how
4:03long have you been here it'll be 25
4:05years in September what's like life like
4:08here for
4:09you uh in a sense I I shouldn't even be
4:13answering that because uh I am here so
4:14seldom I work at home miles away uh but
4:18that's part of the great part of the
4:19freedom of the place I mean right now if
4:21you ask the director of the Hoover
4:22institution what is Tom all working on
4:24he'd say darn if I know you know uh from
4:27time to time they find out what I'm
4:29working on on and if they like it I
4:30continue to stay on I suppose if they
4:32went a couple of years and I did nothing
4:34they say why is he here uh but it's it's
4:36really a wonderful place and I've had
4:38the most productive years of my life
4:39here has your relationship with your
4:41readers changed
4:43much nothing I can think of um Mo most
4:47of the stuff I get from readers is
4:48really very positive very reinforcing
4:50some of it's very touching uh
4:52occasionally you'll get a uh barrage of
4:54criticism on something uh I had one
4:57recently where there's some internet
4:58website that is sicking them on me uh
5:01because I said there's no such thing as
5:03a trickle down Theory nobody has ever
5:04advocated it and there all storms of
5:07email came in not one of which contained
5:10one quote from one person who had
5:11actually advocated it it's one of those
5:13things that someone says that he objects
5:15to in someone else but we can never find
5:17the someone else who's supposed to have
5:19said it in reading a little bit of your
5:21personal autobiography there was a scene
5:24where you were on Top of the World Trade
5:25Center a number of years ago oh yes
5:27having a dinner
5:30do you think about that often in light
5:32of
5:33911 oh that that's chilling it's
5:36chilling yeah I was having dinner with a
5:38man that I worked for decades earlier in
5:40a machine shop in New York at really the
5:42low point of my life and I was uh I
5:45didn't have enough money to ride the New
5:46York subway which was 5 cents in those
5:48days and so I would walk from the
5:50Brooklyn Bridge up to Harlem because I
5:52didn't have the subway fear and uh when
5:55I got paid uh they held back a couple of
5:57days which normally doesn't mean
5:59anything but but when you're in that
6:00position it means a lot and so I had to
6:01ask him to borrow some money so I have
6:03something to eat with and he L me five
6:05bucks which which was real money in
6:06those days uh and so when I came back
6:09there and I was looking out of the hotel
6:10window that I was in and I looked over
6:13to where I used to work and I thought
6:14about him and I phon him and uh he
6:16brought his family and we ate dinner at
6:18the top of the World Trade Center and it
6:20was really one of the best evenings of
6:22my life and he and I were both on the
6:24verge of tears when we when we parted it
6:26was just a wonderful time and number of
6:29years later of course 9/11 what's the
6:31impact of 9/11 on this country and the
6:33world oh my gosh we will never be the
6:36same
6:37again uh I'm I'm disappointed in people
6:42who seem not to realize that it's not
6:44business as usual anymore that it's
6:46really there are things we have to do
6:48that we don't want to do but the
6:50alternative is far worse and so that the
6:54world will never be the same I hope that
6:55it wakes up some people it it certainly
6:57hasn't awakened all of them what should
6:59change in this country even more than it
7:02has I think there shouldn't be these
7:05irresponsible statements that are made
7:07about the world situation things like uh
7:10you know we're having a back door dra
7:13things to undermine the troops who are
7:14out there I'm appalled that the troops
7:16in battle with their lives on the line
7:19are being um tried now as criminals for
7:24actions that they took when they had to
7:26make a split-second uh decision with
7:28their life at akake and when I think of
7:31all the excuses that are made for common
7:33criminals you know he had an unhappy
7:35childhood he ate Twinkies whatever you
7:37know and these men are out there
7:39fighting putting their lives in the line
7:40for us and we're sitting back here
7:42second guessing why what's causing the
7:45second
7:47guessing for some people it's politics
7:49but for other people it is just sheer uh
7:53unthinking reflection reaction you know
7:56gee you shouldn't have done this or you
7:58shouldn't have done that
8:00uh uh it's it's it's like the people who
8:02second guess the police when there's a
8:03shooting and they say why do the police
8:05fire so many shots now you know I I I
8:08taught pistol shooting in the Marine
8:09Corps I'm not the least bit surprised
8:11that they fired all those shots and so
8:13many of them missed that's what happens
8:15with pistols uh but the think that
8:17someone who has never had a gun in his
8:19hand is criticizing someone for what he
8:22did and is sitting back in air
8:23conditioned Comfort someplace you know
8:26second guessing this guy who had his
8:27life on the line and who put his life on
8:29the line line uh to protect him what
8:31kind of marks would you give President
8:33Bush High marks for what um for thinking
8:37long term I mean take my example Social
8:40Security uh whatever you think about his
8:42particular plan and his arguments you
8:44can make back and forth the fact is he
8:45knows Social Security is not going to
8:47run out of money while he's president
8:49the easiest thing in the world would be
8:51for him to say forget it it is someone
8:53else's problem somewhere down the road
8:55you know but he understands that the
8:56longer we wait the worse it's going to
8:58get and therefore we ought to take it on
9:00I think the same thing with terrorism
9:02you know he he he could have stopped in
9:03Afghanistan he could have done this he
9:05could have done that but the fact is he
9:07realized that uh the fact that we stop
9:09doesn't mean that they're going to
9:12stop Irving Crystal told you a couple
9:15years ago or a lot of years ago that if
9:17you the the worst thing about running
9:20for office uh is that you might get
9:22elected oh absolutely and he was
9:24absolutely right did you how how much
9:26did you think about
9:27running uh I thought about only until I
9:30talked with the first professionals I
9:31mean the senator hayako wanted me to run
9:33for the senate in California and out of
9:35respect for him I I agreed just I
9:38thought had never crossed my mind before
9:40or or since uh but uh out of respect for
9:43him I talked to political professionals
9:45and these people would talk to me about
9:46two minutes and they would say you're
9:49not what politicians are made of uh my
9:52uh late sister who probably knew me
9:54better than anyone in the world said
9:55Tommy I can't even imagine you in
9:58politics can't even and once uh and
10:01while my wife was telling a friend uh
10:04Tom wouldn't last 20 minutes in
10:06Washington and uh he said oh yes he
10:09would no I'm not saying he'd last an
10:11hour
10:12you
10:14why because I say what I mean uh and uh
10:18that doesn't help you a lot in
10:20politics um you know they tried to get
10:23me to become a a secretary of uh labor
10:26when Reagan came there were people were
10:28pushing that and I told the guy stop
10:30pushing it you know I said you know the
10:31president of the United States has
10:33better things to do than having to run
10:34around all the time saying well what Tom
10:36really meant was you know after I make
10:38some
10:39statement what kind of person then goes
10:41into
10:42politics I don't really know uh I just
10:46don't know it it has to be someone who's
10:48either enormously dedicated or who is
10:52enormously uh concerned with power
10:55prominence and those kinds of
10:57things talk about saying what you think
10:59uh I just picked this up you do you how
11:01often do you do the random thoughts
11:03columns well I collect them over a
11:05period of time when I have enough for a
11:06column I publish it not
11:09too uh many days ago you wrote the
11:12following Teresa Hines cary's latest
11:15Looney statement that Pro Bush hackers
11:18could have gotten into the electronic
11:19voting machines during last year's
11:21election gave me my first misgivings
11:23about having criticized her she may not
11:25be playing with a full deck yes I just
11:29can't imagine this is one of a whole
11:31series of things she said that makes
11:33makes you wonder first I simply
11:34criticized and and I wondered my gosh
11:37may maybe she really doesn't uh H have
11:39it all how far do you can you go in
11:43today's column writing business when
11:45you're writing about people like this
11:48the wife of a candidate I don't know I
11:50really don't give it a lot of thought
11:52you say what you want to say yeah
11:54editors ever correct you oh when I have
11:56something factually wrong yes I mean I
11:58even printed a correction of factual
11:59correction last year uh for the first
12:02time uh but that that that's not that
12:04that's really not not a big problem for
12:06the first time yes ever factual
12:09correction what was it uh I had quoted
12:12some organization as having lamented
12:15poaching in Kenya and they they hadn't
12:18limited poaching in Kenya but I thought
12:21but you know I thought limitting
12:23poaching is surely not not uh liable but
12:27they wanted to make an issue of it they
12:29and and and they were right on that one
12:31point being wrong on everything else uh
12:34I I I sent that correction in when we
12:37last talked on booknotes in 1990 MH you
12:41had written something like 14 books and
12:43in the interim period you've almost
12:45written that many again probably I
12:47haven't kept track it's over 30 really
12:50how do you go about and I know you got
12:52another one coming out in a few days how
12:54do you go about staying on a schedule
12:57and writing as many books as you have
12:59actually I don't stay on a schedule I
13:00write when I have something to say and
13:04uh that can for example the book basic
13:06economics that I wrote uh that took
13:08shape over a period of a decade I wasn't
13:11even sure what it would be finished but
13:13as I would see things uh written that on
13:16TV that were actually just so wrong
13:18economically I would then sit down and
13:20write something explaining this thing
13:22you on Plain language and over the years
13:24the stuff was just collect in the
13:26computer uh and after you know half a
13:29dozen or so years I I began to say you
13:31know we have almost enough year for a
13:32book and then I began to organize it and
13:34turn it into a book so I I only write
13:36and so I normally we'll have two or
13:38three things going at one time uh and uh
13:41uh I have no idea which one will ever
13:43get finished at all because there's some
13:44that will never get finished uh and much
13:47less which one's going to come out first
13:49so right now for example I have one book
13:51coming out uh in a few weeks that you
13:52mentioned I have another one in press
13:54with Yale University press on a totally
13:57different subject essays on classical e
13:59omcs what's a day like then for you I
14:03have great great Freedom since I I I
14:05don't have classes to teach I don't have
14:07any things to to people to meet uh uh if
14:10on a given day I may do a lot or I may
14:12do nothing at
14:13all I I can remember once I was sitting
14:16here and I said you know I haven't been
14:19in yose in a while I just going out to
14:20the car and got got in the car and drove
14:22to yose and stayed stayed the rest of
14:24the week but how many columns a week do
14:26you have to write I'm only my contract
14:29calls for one a week I usually write
14:31more than one I don't get paid anymore
14:32for the extra ones if I'm truly uh you
14:35know frothing at the mouth I'll write
14:37maybe three or four how long does it
14:39take you to write a 750w column again
14:42it's hard to say cuz I have a whole
14:43bunch of them that are half written
14:45again that will probably never be
14:46completely written and sometimes
14:48something will happen in the news they
14:49will just jog me and I'll sit down and
14:51do it in a couple of hours another time
14:53it'll just take well the random thoughts
14:55column can last you know could be a
14:57couple of months before I collect enough
14:58of one of those so you it's just very
15:01fluid one of the things that's changed
15:04big change since we last talked was is
15:07the internet and I noticed that on town
15:09hall.com you can read every Thomas Soul
15:13column since n since 2000 yes what
15:16impact does that have on you how does
15:17that change the again the relationship
15:19with you and your readers not that I
15:21know of uh uh do more people read you
15:25now than they used to I'm I'm in more
15:27papers than I was say 10 years ago but
15:29what about the internet do you get how
15:30much feedback do you get oh lot lots of
15:32feedback from the internet lots of
15:33feedback from the internet how would you
15:35say the
15:36internet traffic relates to the
15:38newspaper reading traffic you get any
15:42it's hard it's hard to know what
15:43sometimes they'll just write me about a
15:44particular column and they won't say
15:45where they read it uh so I I have no
15:48idea where where they got it from the
15:50Internet or from the newspaper but uh in
15:53terms of mail certainly the emails
15:55vastly exceed the postal mail that I get
15:58how many emails do you get on an ongoing
16:00basis and do you answer them hundreds a
16:03week and I can't answer them all I was
16:06really really really sorry that I can't
16:07because some of them really deserve an
16:09answer uh if I can do 10% of them I
16:11consider I've had a good day how many do
16:13you read I read most of them sometimes
16:16some of these people you write in and
16:18they'll say something in the first
16:19paragraph that makes you realize this
16:21you know this is not not worth going any
16:23further with and you just hit the delete
16:25button and keep moving what's your
16:27impression of the internet and its
16:29impact on the
16:31society oh I think it's opened up a lot
16:33of things it's made it harder I I guess
16:36for totalitarian country to seal its
16:39people off from the outside world and
16:40that can only be a good
16:42thing you wrote in one of your random
16:44thoughts columns um one sign of the
16:46Democrats desperation is that some of
16:48them continue to try to Tar the Bush
16:50Administration with innuendos of racism
16:53even though its cabinets members have
16:55included people of Hispanic Japanese
16:57American Jewish and Chinese American
17:01ancestry as well as two conservative
17:03black secretaries of state two
17:04consecutive cons I'm sorry yeah yes yes
17:08well uh it does seem a little ridiculous
17:10but it also shows how desperate they are
17:12they the Democrat Democrats get
17:14something like 80 to 90% of the black
17:16vote if that ever falls down to 60 or
17:1870% they're in deep trouble because
17:21they've alienated so many other people
17:23that they they they have a hard time
17:24winning elections at all and so
17:25therefore they must try to keep blacks
17:27paranoid
17:29I think of this thing about remember the
17:30the dragging death in Texas some years
17:32ago and they used that against Bush
17:34because Bush was was against hate crimes
17:36legislation and the fact is that these
17:38two guys who did this were electrocuted
17:41so whether it was a hate crime or not a
17:43hate crime they're dead and calling it a
17:45hate crime would have changed absolutely
17:47nothing what it would have done was open
17:49up the courts to all kinds of litigation
17:51because the guy is convicted of a hate
17:52crime and his lawyer would say well it
17:54really wasn't really a hate crime and
17:56they can go through the whole Circuit
17:58Court of Appeal appeals and so forth and
18:00so uh to me I I agree entirely with Bush
18:03on this particular point that uh doesn't
18:05matter what what what what your
18:06motivation was if you did it you should
18:09pay the price why do so many blacks
18:11follow the Democratic party then in
18:13nurer don't forget the uh the solid
18:15South part of that followed the
18:17Democratic party for over a century so
18:19blacks have been into this what 6 some
18:21years now I'm hoping that blacks will
18:23wake up faster than the than the solid
18:25South did but uh uh these things go the
18:28uh the Jewish vote has gone Democratic
18:30by overwhelming majority and it's hard
18:32to see why uh given the policies and so
18:35on but uh once this inursery gets going
18:38it'll it'll keep going for a long time
18:40you were a democrat in 1972 and you say
18:42you haven't been a member of a party
18:44since that's right why why' you switch
18:46to no party oh McGovern when I saw what
18:50happened to the Democrats under
18:51mcgoverin I I voted Heaven helpers for a
18:54governor in the in the primaries in 1972
18:57simply because I was so sick of the Viet
18:58am War but the more I saw of McGovern
19:01and the people around McGovern the more
19:03I realized what a disaster it would be
19:05to have this man president uh I didn't
19:08uh I I I was never a Nixon fan and so in
19:101972 I didn't vote at all or in 76 for
19:13that matter how does Richard Nixon look
19:15now in
19:16retrospect a lot better
19:19why well you compare him with uh say
19:23Clinton Nixon Nixon was going to you
19:25know was threatened with impeachment uh
19:28he quit uh he spared the country he he
19:31wasn't going to fight it even more so if
19:33you go back to 1960 when there was an
19:35extremely close race between Nixon and
19:37no 60 yes Nixon and Kennedy and uh there
19:41were people say you know there was all
19:42kinds of voter fraud in Chicago I mean
19:44voed frud in Chicago is not a new
19:47idea uh and they asked they saying he
19:49should he should challenge it he refused
19:50to challenge it the country should not
19:52be put through that uh the stuff that
19:55went on in Florida in 19 uh in 20 you
19:59know that kind of stuff he spared us all
20:01of that what was your feeling about
20:04Jerry
20:05Ford I like President Ford
20:09uh I I think Ronald Reagan was better uh
20:13but the thing I guess the one thing that
20:16really made me upset with President Ford
20:18was pardoning Richard Nixon I was
20:21driving my car on the highway when I
20:22heard the news and I immediately got off
20:24the highway because I don't like to
20:25drive when I'm angry uh and until I calm
20:29down and and again because of course
20:31what it said was there are people out
20:32there who don't you know who who are
20:35essentially Above the Law and I think
20:37that is the worst thing you can do yes
20:39the country would have I don't know I
20:41don't know how how much the country
20:42would have been put through through an
20:43impeachment of Nixon because he didn't
20:44have that many fans at that point uh but
20:47the idea that some people can commit
20:50these crimes CU I suspect that had Nixon
20:53been convicted and served a little jail
20:55time I suspect that uh uh Clinton might
20:57have W watched this step a lot a lot
20:59more carefully which president offered
21:02you the Federal Trade commissioner's job
21:05uh President Ford what were the
21:07circumstances uh they had a vacancy it
21:10was it was 1976 and they offered it to
21:12me and I agreed to take it on condition
21:15that uh if there's any opposition uh
21:17arises they let me know I'll withdraw
21:19because I don't have time to play
21:20Washington games and uh I kept calling
21:23there and asking and the guy at the
21:25White House who's handling this is there
21:26any I don't hear anything what's going
21:28on and he said oh no no it's just taking
21:30time and eventually I was in Washington
21:32so I went up to the hill and talked to
21:34the the staff this committee that handle
21:38this and uh he said uh we've gone over
21:40your record with a fine tooth comb we
21:43can find nothing to object to and
21:44therefore we're just not going to hold
21:46hearings because this is an election
21:48year we expect our guys is going to be
21:49elected and he'll appoint his own man
21:51what burned me was that he said and I
21:53and I said did you tell the White House
21:55this he said we told the White House
21:56This months ago and I went back to the
21:59guy at the White House and I said I just
22:01talked to this fell on the hill and
22:02either he's lying or you're lying which
22:04is it and he started hming and Hauling I
22:06turned and walked out I sent them a one
22:09on line uh uh withdrawal letter from the
22:12hotel on Hotel stationary and that was
22:14the end of it are you um sad you never
22:17served in the government no my gosh no
22:23why stuff like this is one
22:25reason that you know Harry Truman said
22:27if you want a friend in Washington get a
22:30dog and uh uh anyone who's asked my
22:34opinion about going to Washington
22:35serving government I can't think of
22:37anyone I said that they should do
22:40it uh some people have uh credited me
22:43with having some influence with Clarence
22:45Thomas I obviously don't because I told
22:48him when he was at the EOC and he was
22:50looking around what he's going to do
22:51next I said get out of Washington and
22:53stay out of Washington so he wouldn't
22:55even be where he is if he' listened to
22:56me what are your expect about the
22:59possibility of him being nominated to be
23:00chief justice no idea I mean I I know
23:03less about Washington politics than I
23:06know about anything else but I guess
23:07maybe a better question is what would
23:08happen if he were nominated in your
23:11opinion oh there would be they would be
23:13the the usual kind of cheap shot reruns
23:16of the confirmation hearings U I think
23:19he probably get confirmed and I it would
23:21be great for the for the for the court
23:22I'm not sure it would be great for him
23:24or
23:25not let's quickly retrace your steps in
23:28life uh how many places have you lived
23:31oh my
23:32gosh I sure it must run into dozen or
23:35two started where born in Gastonia North
23:38Carolina little town about 15 miles from
23:41Charlotte which where my earliest
23:42memories are of
23:44Charlotte uh moved up to Harlem and when
23:46I was 8 years old uh went the went down
23:50to Washington in 1950 worked as a GS2
23:53clerk for the government came back to
23:55New York was drafted into the Marine
23:57Corps couple cou years there uh off back
24:01to Washington went to Howard University
24:02at night on the uh GI Bill while I was
24:04working for the government today and
24:06then I decided I would I wasn't getting
24:08anywhere intellectually I thought this
24:10this is not going to make it here and so
24:12I started riding away to places and the
24:14only place that would uh give me any
24:16money was Harvard so it was my fallback
24:20place and uh I really appreciated the
24:24way they they they they were the
24:25frankness they had cuz they wrote to me
24:27first that you should not withdraw from
24:29where you are because chances are you
24:31will not be admitted and which is which
24:33you know I was a 24 year old high school
24:36dropout who had a B minus average at a
24:39mediocre college and so you know uh and
24:43so but said but we'll wait to see what
24:44the test results were a couple of days
24:46before I took the SATs Colombia sent me
24:49their
24:50rejection uh and I took the SATs I did
24:53very well on it and so the letter came
24:55back and it said uh I'm not sure we're
24:57doing you a favor because by then
24:59scholarship money was going anyway uh
25:01but you're admitted and in those days
25:04you couldn't give a transfer student a
25:05scholarship and so they would simply
25:08lend me some money and I then would have
25:10to come up with the rest of it to cover
25:12the first year betting everything that I
25:14would do well up the first year that
25:15there would be a second year and as I
25:17look back on it now I know so much more
25:19about the situation and the odds I
25:21realiz that was an incredible
25:23Gamble and and did you ever get your
25:25high school diploma never and so when I
25:27when I when I told taught of some of
25:28these expensive places like Cornell and
25:30am I sometimes told the students do you
25:32realize your parents are paying all this
25:34money for you to be taught by a
25:35Dropout you got your undergraduate
25:37degree from Harvard in what economics
25:40you got your master's degree from
25:41Columbia in economics and you got your
25:44PhD in economics from new univers of
25:46Chicago and at Chicago Milton fredman
25:49was your advisor yes what did he teach
25:52you that you still hold on to today well
25:55I guess everything but uh uh he taught
25:58price Theory and uh but I I guess it
26:01really what what he what he taught was
26:03rigorous methods of
26:04thinking um and that that and that and
26:07that that that that's that's a legacy
26:09something I appreciated at the time and
26:11more so as time is going on I remember
26:13one of the questions he asked on an exam
26:15was Define marginal revenue now that's a
26:18question you would ask in economics one
26:20you see I sorry thought well nobody got
26:24full credit for the answer I was lucky
26:26to be one of the few that got partial
26:28credit credit because there are all
26:30kinds of sloppy ways of defining
26:32marginal revenue which then lead you
26:34into all kinds of
26:35fallacies uh and so you learn no you
26:38define it the way it ought to be and
26:41that way you avoid a whole mess of stuff
26:43that you you don't want to get
26:45into you uh in your random thoughts
26:47columns again um share some of your
26:51personal thoughts on things other than
26:52politics and one of them is I know
26:54you're a photographer that you say anel
26:57Adams that no one has yet taken better
26:59pictures than he did yes why do you say
27:02that and what about your own photography
27:04well uh my my point was that all the
27:07huge advances in technology really don't
27:10make up for for for for for for the
27:12talent that you either have or don't
27:14have and so right right now my favorite
27:16picture uh that I've ever taken uh was
27:19taken with a speed graphic the last one
27:21of which was manufactured 30 some years
27:23ago I took the picture last last uh uh
27:26last June and you imity and it's on my
27:29website if you want to take a look it's
27:30half dome uh but here is this camera
27:33that hasn't been made in 30 years and
27:36it's not the camera it's not the
27:37equipment it's the photographer how much
27:39do you do with your website and who
27:41maintains it for you my assistant I have
27:43no idea I have no idea what it costs how
27:45it's done or anything I simply turn it
27:48over to her you talked about TI Woods uh
27:51this is back in 2000 then you said
27:54positively and then you said so many
27:56athletes in the public eye act like
27:58jackasses or even criminals yes what
28:00made you want to say that well because
28:03so many of them do uh I think just just
28:08just to give one example the boxers
28:10would do all the show offing and the
28:12carrying on I mean I'm old enough to
28:13remember Joe Lewis I mean Joe Lewis
28:15conducted himself with dignity he came
28:17out there he fought his fight he spoke
28:20like a gentleman and he left uh when uh
28:23you know when Jim Brown scored a
28:24touchdown he didn't act like a teenager
28:27uh out there there in the end zone he
28:29scored his touchdown he went on back to
28:31the bench and so that that kind of thing
28:34and then of course the steroids thing is
28:36just uh it turns my stomach because
28:39obviously if some people take steroids
28:40other people have to take steroids they
28:42if they want to compete and worse yet uh
28:45younger people who will never make the
28:46major leagues are going to take steroids
28:48and they'll pay the price and never
28:50collect the
28:51benefits you say that 3% of the American
28:53children are homeschooled but 10% of
28:56those in the spelling bee are
28:58homeschoolers wow did I say that I
29:00probably true what what again do you
29:03think homeschooling is the way to go for
29:05some people who can do it I mean I I
29:07wish certainly I could have homeschooled
29:09my children I had too there was no way I
29:11could do it uh circumstances you have
29:13had how many children two how old are
29:15they today uh
29:1840 and uh
29:2135 that's John and Lorraine yeah where
29:24do they live I I don't never discuss
29:26where they live in your book you talk
29:28about writing a column though about John
29:30having not spoken until he was four and
29:32it had an impact on the on your readers
29:34oh my gosh yes um because you can
29:38imagine that the apprehension and the
29:40running to the specialist and the
29:41examining for this examining for that uh
29:44and all the people who say he's
29:46and so on and uh when I wrote that
29:48column people began writing to me around
29:50from around the country with kids who
29:52were just like that uh and the that
29:54result I ended up um setting up a group
29:57of parents s of late talking children
29:59that grew to about 55
30:01families uh and then I studied patterns
30:04I found in them and wrote a couple of
30:05books about that and now there's a man
30:07down at Vanderbilt who's doing further
30:09research on this has it had any
30:11long-term impact on your son not
30:13speaking to for nothing I know
30:16of uh like so many people you know a lot
30:20of the parents years later will say now
30:22now I can't get him to shut up wasn't it
30:25Einstein that didn't speak to three
30:26that's right uh tell
30:29all these people that I learned about by
30:31the way I made no e systematic effort to
30:33find them I found out about ELD Edward
30:34Teller because my assistant went to the
30:37fact machine the fact the cover of of
30:39the book late talking children and
30:41teller's assistant was there and she
30:42said oh my gosh Dr tella didn't talk
30:45late and then we looked it up and found
30:47out it was four years old before he said
30:49anything you give a Joseph gerles award
30:52how long have you done that and who did
30:53you give the last one to I've only done
30:55it once uh it was to Dan Rather and it
30:58was the uh the forge documents but it
31:00goes back long before the forge
31:02documents uh earlier the rather had a
31:05broadcast 93 if I remember correctly
31:08where he said that one out of eight
31:09children in America was going to bed
31:11hungry tonight and I went back and
31:13looked up the original study I mean
31:15there's few things more disillusioning
31:16than looking up original studies and it
31:19was utter nonsense from that from that
31:21study the study wasn't that great itself
31:23but uh to conclude that one out of eight
31:25kids in this country are going to bed
31:26hungry at night when in fact obesity is
31:28higher in the lower income brackets than
31:30in the higher brackets uh was just a
31:33Madness I take it you don't care much
31:35for the networks I don't did you ever
31:37work for any of them no did you ever do
31:40commentary for them I mean I was I I've
31:42probably been interviewed on on some of
31:44them but uh no I've had no connection
31:46with what is it you don't like about
31:49them um I guess they do too much
31:52spinning and too little reporting and
31:54they're too one-sided for example I the
31:57meeting frenzy about George Bush's uh
31:59National Guard service during the last
32:01year's election absolutely nothing about
32:05uh the fact that John K's honorable
32:08discharge is do is dated years after his
32:12service was over and it was dated during
32:14the Carter Administration when there was
32:16a program which upgraded thousands of
32:19less than honorable discharges I don't
32:20know what his discharge was like because
32:22he has never signed the same form that
32:24Bush signed so we will NE probably never
32:26know but
32:29at the very least it's worth asking why
32:31why doesn't he let open up the records
32:33but they were on push all all the time
32:35he said here's the record uh you know
32:37it's that kind of thing that troubles Me
32:39by and large you're not seen often on
32:41television is that is that your choice
32:43yes and why uh there are very few
32:46programs on which you can say anything
32:48at a at a length and in a way uh that
32:51will get across what you're saying and
32:53there are too many where you come on for
32:55and they tape you for half an hour and
32:56they put you on for 3 minutes and then
32:58they put other people on after you
33:00saying things against you that you never
33:02have a chance to answer and it just not
33:04a for in which to really get across what
33:06you want to say has it had any negative
33:08impact on your visibility or your
33:10ability to sell your books not that I
33:12know of but of course we'll never
33:15know however I do recall one book of
33:17mine that was uh On The Wall Street
33:19Journal bestseller list when I was in
33:21Russia I came back and went on a book
33:23tour and it fell off the
33:26list random thoughts Tom broka had more
33:29viewers when he was in last place of the
33:31three networks and but there are fewer
33:34people watching
33:36him watching The Big Three you say m um
33:40what do you think the future now that
33:41they the anchormen are moving on what do
33:44you think the future of the anchor
33:46person is in the whole country I have no
33:49idea everything will probably depend on
33:51who the people are who uh succeed the
33:53big three but the general Trend towards
33:55giving the giving the three big networks
33:57left and less of the market I think it's
33:59a good Trend because I don't think they'
34:01used their Monopoly uh
34:03responsibly you said in one of your
34:05random thoughts it's amazing how many
34:06people seem to think that government
34:08exists to turn their prejudices into
34:10laws that's May 5th of 2004 MH yes I
34:15hear people say uh uh I I don't
34:18understand why uh you know this company
34:20CEO makes all this money the government
34:22should do something about it uh or they
34:25say uh uh you know the pharmaceutical
34:28companies spend more on re on re on
34:30Advertising than on research and the
34:32government should stop that and I I
34:35remember writing back to one of these
34:36guys what what what facts do you have
34:38what expertise do you have what anything
34:40do you have that enables you to say how
34:42much advertising and how much resource
34:44somebody else should be doing in a field
34:46that you have no knowledge of but I
34:49think it's it's one of the sad signs I
34:51think of our educational system we have
34:53people who really don't know very much
34:55about anything who nevertheless feel
34:57entitled to uh as I say I have I have a
35:00right to my opinion well hey I wouldn't
35:02deny them that it's just that they think
35:04that the government has uh a duty to
35:06make their opinion law what was your
35:08reaction then to the conservatives
35:09wanting the judges to get involved in
35:11the recent shyo situation the judges
35:13were already involved in it the only
35:15question is uh which judges uh and which
35:18law and how well were they carrying out
35:19their duties and uh and that
35:23um I think I think that when the state
35:25judges are doing things that uh
35:28um it seems to me go against the state
35:31law there's an argument for having the
35:33federal judges take a look at it but the
35:34federal judges looked at it and said no
35:36deal no no that's right and I think I
35:38think they did that uh ignoring because
35:41I got a copy of the law that Congress
35:42passed and it says they should look at
35:44this denovo they should not simply
35:46review this as appell courts do just to
35:48see if the trial judge behave legally
35:51they should look at it denovo to see
35:53whether the the merits of the case are
35:55what they are and they never looked at
35:56it denovo as one of the descending
35:58judges pointed out that this case the
35:59merits have never been litigated in a
36:02federal court uh and so all these people
36:04who count how many judges were involved
36:06totally misleading should judges
36:08continue to have life tenure no what
36:10should happen oh gosh
36:13uh all kinds of Alternatives certain
36:16certainly uh limited terms and I think
36:19the judges who clearly disobey the
36:22explicit words that are quite easily
36:24understood should be impeached and
36:25removed a few time let that happen a few
36:27times of people's I think I think for
36:29example of of the U the Weber case back
36:32in 1979 where Brennan rended the
36:34decision that was just directly the
36:36opposite of what the law said and
36:39renquist and his descent said you know
36:40this reminds him of the Great Escapes of
36:42Houdini uh I think that someone like
36:45that should be impeached and removed
36:46that you you don't pass laws to have
36:48somebody else do the opposite of what
36:49the law says Thomas Soul quote the older
36:53I get the more I realize that arguing on
36:56the basis of facts and logic gets you
36:58labeled as someone who is out of step
37:00with the times e if not lacking in
37:03compassion oh absolutely absolutely that
37:07we that we've reached the point where
37:08there are great numbers of people who
37:10don't argue in terms of what your facts
37:11are they argue well that your your
37:13motivation must be wrong you lack
37:15compassion uh for the poor etc etc
37:19you've got a new book coming out in a
37:21couple of weeks we have a mock cover
37:24here cuz it's not out yet black rednecks
37:27and and white liberals by Thomas
37:29Soul over 30 books published how
37:32important is this book to you probably
37:35uh it may be the most important because
37:37there are so many misconceptions about
37:39racial and ethnic issues that uh just
37:41straightening out the misconceptions is
37:44a major task in itself I don't I don't
37:47reach any kind of policy conclusions in
37:48this book Because as I say that it's
37:50just a it's a full-time job to get the
37:53fact straightened out well let me read
37:55what you say in your preface um you say
37:58let me State here and now that these
38:01essays do that these essays do not mean
38:05one all Southern whites were or are
38:08rednecks two all black Americans today
38:11or in the past were or are black
38:14rednecks three Jews are exactly the same
38:17as the other groups with whom they are
38:18compared and that four slavery is
38:21somehow morally acceptable because
38:23everyone was guilty of it one cannot
38:25predict you're right much less for
38:27Forstall all the clever
38:29misinterpretations that others might put
38:31on one's words the most that can be done
38:33is to alert honest people to the problem
38:35explain all that well I found that
38:38people do an awful lot of twisting of
38:40what you say uh when you what when what
38:42you have actually said goes completely
38:44against what they've believed for a long
38:46time and want to continue to believe and
38:48so they they they go off on all kinds of
38:51tangents uh and uh what I find is that
38:53happens with intellectuals much more so
38:55than with the general public whereas I
38:57can write a a column in a newspaper
38:58aimed at the general public and there'll
39:00be extremely few misunderstandings of
39:02what I said uh I can say the same things
39:04in a book that's aimed at intellectuals
39:06and there'll be incredible twists and
39:08turning well he seemed to say this
39:10further than that uh I remember one one
39:13huge uh review uh trying to figure out
39:16the implications of ethnic America uh
39:19and uh what made it a force was that the
39:21last chapter of the book is titled
39:22implications so you don't have to guess
39:24what the implications I drew they're
39:25right there but I strongly suspect the
39:27person who wrote the review never got
39:29that far you also said in your preface
39:32because this book is written for the
39:33general public it does not feature long
39:35convoluted sentences with Escape Clauses
39:38designed to prevent words from being
39:39Twisted yes because again I've seen that
39:42that that the clever people will do that
39:45and uh so I I write for the people who
39:47who are the general public uh and for
39:50those intellectuals who are honest and
39:52the rest of them I write them
39:54off black rednecks who are they
39:58these would be blacks who came out of
40:00the Southern Culture and who carried
40:03that culture with them North into the
40:05into the urban ghettos into the ghettos
40:07of the South for that matter uh and who
40:09have not moved out of that culture since
40:11over over the years both blacks and
40:13whites have moved away from that culture
40:15but in the poorest and worst of the
40:16ghetto areas there are lots of people
40:19who have not and these kinds it's a it's
40:22a culture which which didn't do whites
40:24any good and it's certainly not doing
40:25blacks any good today and the tragedy is
40:28that people regard this culture as
40:29somehow the authentic black culture and
40:32therefore you're not to interfere with
40:33it it's to be allowed to until they're
40:35cheering people on it reminds me of a
40:37scene in the Blue Max where this General
40:39is encouraging this Daredevil pilot to
40:41do all kinds of wild stunts you see
40:43knowing that the guy's going to kill
40:45himself if he keeps doing this and
40:46therefore the general will be rid of a
40:48uh of a political problem uh now I don't
40:50think that the the white Liberals are
40:52doing this deliberately but I think the
40:53net results are the same they are
40:55cheering blacks on and doing things that
40:57are absolutely self-destructive what's
40:59the difference between a black redneck
41:00and a white redneck
41:04color same kind of people same attitudes
41:07oh absolutely absolutely uh uh and and
41:10same kind of results uh one of the
41:12things I point out in this book is that
41:13you know as late as the first world war
41:16when mental tests were given in the Army
41:18there were whites from any number of
41:19Southern States who scored lower on
41:21those tests in blacks from northern
41:22states so that anyone who comes out of
41:25that culture is likely to score lower on
41:27test to do less well in intellectual
41:29areas whether they're black or white now
41:32what do you say somebody watching this
41:33says Thomas Soul lives in an ivory Tower
41:36he he lives in that Hoover institution
41:38he doesn't have contact with these kind
41:40of people how do you know these people
41:42uh have well I was 50 years old when I
41:45came to the Hoover institution so it was
41:46not I I was a uh a young lad uh fresh
41:50out of school and uh I grew up in far
41:53worse poverty than most people today who
41:55are considered to be in poverty
41:57so your other part of the title is white
42:00liberals how do you define a white
42:03liberal those kinds of people who have
42:05the kinds of attitudes that are called
42:06liberal in the United States although
42:07the word is misused uh but uh uh you
42:10know Ted Kennedy uh and in
42:14politics uh any number of people in the
42:17in in the media among int
42:20intelligencia Larry tribe and the law
42:22and so on uh and uh those people have
42:26created an atmosphere in which um these
42:30counterproductive cultures are to be
42:33celebrated
42:35perpetuated and the consequences
42:37overlooked what's the difference between
42:39a white liberal and a black liberal
42:43color same people yes same attitude yes
42:47you have u a chapter that's the first
42:50chapter is black rednecks and white
42:52liberals the second chapter is are Jews
42:54generic MH why the jump to from black
42:58rednecks and white liberals to our Jews
43:00generic what's the point well this book
43:02is a really about ethnic and cultural
43:04issues in general so there's a chapter
43:06on the Jews a chapter on the Germans and
43:07then there's a chapter on history in
43:09general so that that's uh they they're
43:11lumped together because they're all
43:13cultural ethnic issues uh and uh we move
43:16on to the Jews simply because it's a
43:18fascinating story because among the the
43:21the middleman minorities of which the
43:23Jews are the most prominent uh the
43:25hostility to these people in countries
43:26around the world is out of all
43:28proportion to that to any other kind of
43:30group I can think of uh in terms of the
43:32violence uh the vi the number of uh of
43:35black the number of Chinese killed let's
43:37say in one year uh and by mob action
43:40exceeds all the blacks lynched in the
43:42entire history of the United States and
43:44the number of Armenians killed in in
43:47Turkey you know during the first world
43:48war is greater than that and of course
43:50the number of Jews slaughtered on a
43:52number of occasions in history even
43:54before the Holocaust is greater than
43:55that so that the question is why this
43:58particular kind of people are the
44:00targets of so much us venomous hatred
44:04and I think the answer is that um they
44:07not they not only succeed they succeed
44:09in a way which is a threat to the egos
44:12of other people that is no no you can
44:14Envy a Rockefeller but he's no threat to
44:17Your Ego because you say listen anybody
44:18can be rich if he's born a Rockefeller
44:20but the guy who comes here let's say
44:22from Vietnam or Korea and arrives here
44:25with little more than the clothes in his
44:26back and a few were broken words of
44:28broken English uh and a decade later he
44:31has his own little business and you see
44:33his son few years after that getting
44:35ready to go off to harbit or MIT you got
44:37to ask yourself you either got to you
44:39know you you you you've got to hate
44:41yourself for saying my God I I've been
44:43stagnating this guy was nothing and now
44:45he's risen up or you're going to have to
44:47hate him and most people when they have
44:49a choice between hating others and
44:50hating themselves they hate others where
44:53does the hatred for the Jews come from
44:54in history number of place
44:57but um they are people who who who have
45:00been who have succeeded an awful lot in
45:03the midst of other people who have not
45:05years ago one official of one of the
45:07Jewish organizations in New York asked
45:08me what what can Jews themselves do uh
45:11in order to minimize the hostility they
45:13face I gave him a one word answer
45:15fail because as long as you succeed
45:18you're going to be hated so the source
45:20is s uh success it's not only the
45:22success it's the
45:25success starting in poverty as the Jews
45:27did in the United States and other many
45:28other countries uh and so they you you
45:31not only see them succeed you see them
45:32rise up uh from from the bottom past
45:35other people and the people they've
45:36passed don't like it but there's also
45:38the fact that the role they play
45:40economically is has never been
45:41understood uh it's you know they're
45:43middlemen or they're money lenders and
45:46the argument is they really noten
45:47producing anything you can't see
45:48anything tangible that they don't stand
45:50at a production line turning out widgets
45:53uh and so the argument is that they
45:54they're not producing anything they're
45:55simply gratuitously in Ting themselves
45:57between the producer and the consumer
45:59and their parasites essentially and this
46:01argument has been made again not only
46:03about the Jews but about similar groups
46:04around the world and a number of places
46:06they have expelled those people or
46:07forced them out by mob actions forced
46:09them to flee and after they've left the
46:11economy has collapsed but it never
46:14teaches the lesson to know they were
46:15doing something you point out in in the
46:17chapter on um rg's generic that one 10th
46:21and 1% of the people in the world are
46:22Jews but 29% of the Nobel Peace or Nobel
46:26prizes and sign science and literature
46:28uh are Jews yes where did you find that
46:30and what does that mean to you uh it'll
46:33be in the footnote I've read so much
46:34stuff I don't I can't pinpoint it but
46:36what what it means to me is that among
46:38other things that there is one of many
46:40examples of groups that are wholly
46:42disproportionately represented in
46:43particular areas and it shows what a
46:45force it is that that uh intellectuals
46:48and even the courts think it is
46:50something remarkable when there's X some
46:52group is x% of the population but y% of
46:55the people in this profession or that in
46:57institution that's true all around the
46:59world and it's not just Jews it's
47:02Germans it's Japanese it's you you name
47:03it you turn on television it's blacks
47:05and basketball you know you just run
47:08everywhere and yet despite this
47:10empirical reality that you simply can't
47:12escape people are determined to believe
47:14that anytime the groups aren't
47:16represented in proportion of the
47:17population something strange must be
47:20going on this is maybe too General a
47:22question but what determines the way
47:24most people think about other in their
47:27lives I mean what what's the base of
47:30someone's own Prejudice in your oh my
47:32gosh I I don't know that's that's the
47:34only only real answer I can give you I I
47:37wrote a book about the assumptions from
47:39which people start about assumptions
47:40about human beings in general this is a
47:43book called conflict of visions and once
47:45you start with a certain conception of
47:46human beings an awful lot of other
47:49things follow when you talk about
47:50Justice about power about equality about
47:53all sorts of other things uh depending
47:56on what what your assumption about the
47:59nature of man if you were still living
48:0150 years from now what would you predict
48:05the the black race in this country would
48:07be oh wow wow I mean based on trends
48:10that you've seen in in the last 20 50
48:13years it could go it could go either way
48:16if the current trends continue it's
48:17going to be a
48:18disaster uh but there's evidences that
48:21the current trends are not unchallenged
48:24uh people from time to time ask me that
48:26to mentioned some black conservative
48:28writers and I tell them you know 30
48:30years ago I could have told you uh
48:32Walter Williams and me uh and today I
48:35can't even keep track of them all
48:37they're all over the place they're in
48:38the media they have their own shows they
48:41write columns they write books and I
48:42learn about them you know from nowhere
48:44they suddenly appear so there is this uh
48:47counter Trend going on and everything
48:49depends upon which WS out in the end how
48:52much of a role have you played in
48:54guiding them the conservative black
48:57writers I have no way of knowing you'd
48:58have to ask them uh most of the people
49:01who uh sometimes sometimes I'm credited
49:02with having influenced this person or
49:04that person but uh waltter Williams for
49:06example had arrived at the same
49:08conclusion that I had before I ever met
49:10him and in fact that was his whole
49:12reason for wanting to meet me uh so that
49:15you you know it's so easy to to re
49:17reconstruct these things to fit some
49:18notion but it's it's what I call putting
49:21two and two together and getting
49:22seven that uh you know wal had his own
49:25ideas before I came along is there
49:27someone in your own life you credit with
49:30having the biggest impact on way you
49:32think today not really uh the biggest
49:35change well I guess at one time um Marx
49:38if you'd asked me in my 20s it would
49:40have been Carl Marx but the change from
49:43that was not brought about by reading
49:44someone else it was about from
49:46experiences that I had and things that I
49:47learned as time went on and what one
49:50experience would you credit with having
49:52the biggest oh working for the labor
49:53department in the summer of 1960 and
49:56discovering one that there was plenty of
49:57evidence that the minimum wage was in
49:59fact costing people their jobs more than
50:01that discovering that the people in the
50:03labor department really were not
50:04interested in that because the minimum
50:07wage administration of the minimum wage
50:09was taking supplying onethird of the
50:10money that was keeping the labor
50:11department going so for me the question
50:14was was it helpful or not and for the
50:16them them the question was are we going
50:17to really uh uh I I can remember the the
50:20sense of consternation when I suggested
50:22an empirical test of this uh as if you
50:25know my God this man stumbled upon
50:27something that could ruin us all you
50:29know and I once I realized that I
50:31realized that institutions have their
50:32own agendas and their own incentives and
50:35the and what they were set up to do
50:37really is not controlling so what did
50:39you do with that finding that you had
50:41back was it 1960 yes because you said
50:43you've been writing since 1960 yes did
50:45you go right out and start writing as
50:47you after you learned all this no
50:49because I I couldn't get I was supposed
50:51to write a doctoral dissertation on this
50:53and I tried to get the data and the data
50:55simply are not there I mean it's to get
50:57data that are that are truly
50:59relevant is is is very hard in many
51:02cases I you can always get some numbers
51:04throw them together and come with a
51:06conclusion but if you're serious uh you
51:08find that there are very few sources
51:10that have that have good data let me
51:12divert just for a moment when if we saw
51:13you in your habitat writing what would
51:16we see oh you you would see a first of
51:19all a mess in the office uh this is home
51:23home and uh uh uh and you see up the
51:26computer with with my Windows
51:2895 uh and uh uh just struggling with
51:32stuff that's all and what time of day
51:34would you do be doing most of your
51:35writing I I have no schedule because I
51:37have no classes I have no office hours
51:39and so on and so it's whenever and so uh
51:42around oh I guess around two 2:00 this
51:45morning I was working but at 8:30 this
51:48morning I was fast asleep how often is
51:50that happen often there really is no
51:53schedule do you watch much television
51:55how do you stay up with what's going on
51:56on in the world I watch television
51:59selectively uh I watch news and public
52:01affairs programs some of them uh and I
52:05watch
52:06sports uh I haven't I haven't watched
52:08ABC news for example in
52:10decades how about NBC News uh not not a
52:14lot since then in those same decades I
52:16mean ever since ever since the Invasion
52:18of Grenada and ABC News featured a a
52:22story about how American soldiers
52:24Landing a Grenada were wearing the wrong
52:25kind of uniform forms I thought that was
52:27really not the significance of the
52:29Grenada
52:31Invasion back to your book uh chapter
52:35the third chapter is the real history of
52:36slavery yes what is the real history of
52:39slavery the slavery was much bigger and
52:42involved infinitely more people than
52:44people have realized it was not confined
52:46by race it was not defined by race or
52:49created by race it existed for thousands
52:51of years uh history
52:53Professor had a student come up to him
52:55and ask him
52:57when when did slavery begin he said
52:59you're asking the wrong question the
53:01question is when did Freedom begin
53:03because slavery existed as long as we
53:05have any records and and and from Arch
53:07archaeological finds we we realize that
53:10people were enslaving other people
53:11before they could read and right so
53:14that's always existed and has existed
53:16all over the world the number of white
53:17people enslaved by pirates in North
53:20Africa was greater than the number of
53:22Africans brought to the United States
53:24you know and yet uh that's not that's
53:28that that that that's not even mentioned
53:30in in most of the discussion so I try to
53:31look at slavery as a worldwide
53:34phenomenon and it's something that's
53:35lasted for thousands of years I also
53:37tried to ask the question why did it end
53:40it ended here because of a civil war but
53:42it didn't end anywhere else because of
53:44that uh it took over 100 years to to to
53:47root it out and again the literature
53:49there's tons you can find the shells
53:51groaning with books about the United
53:53States the Western Hemisphere and
53:55Africans but ver virtually nothing about
53:58the rest of it this book about the uh
54:00Europeans enslaved by North African
54:02Pirates came out in 2003 by 2004 you
54:06couldn't find a copy it had for all
54:08practical purposes going out of print
54:10there was just no interest in it what
54:12should this knowledge that you put in
54:13this chapter what impact that should
54:15that have on people who read it in this
54:16country what do you what impact do you
54:18want it to have
54:19on well I I guess I want them to
54:22understand what the facts are which you
54:24know is a is is a major undertaking in
54:25itself
54:27uh and also realize that um racism in
54:30the United States grew out of slavery
54:31but slavery didn't grew out of racism
54:33the Europeans enslaved other Europeans
54:36for centuries before the first African
54:38was ever brought to the Western
54:39Hemisphere that wherever there were
54:41people who were vulnerable for whatever
54:43reason those were the people that were
54:44prayed upon even though in for most of
54:47History the those who enslaved and those
54:49who uh uh uh were slaves were the same
54:52race have you ever gone back and looked
54:55at your own
54:57history not really
55:01uh no you have no idea where your folks
55:04came from originally no I I I guess uh I
55:07don't know even the names of my
55:10grandparents on both sides on both on
55:12both
55:13sides um partly is because I I I'm I'm
55:16an orphan and uh so that there was that
55:19that link was cut but I but I really
55:21don't know the Nam of of the grand who
55:23people who would be my grandparents and
55:25the adopted family either did you ever
55:27know your original parents no I have no
55:29know I uh my father died before I was
55:32born uh and uh I I my mother uh Heavens
55:37I was so young that I have no memory
55:38whatever of
55:40her next chapter is Germans in history
55:43yes and I guess the question I wanted to
55:45ask after a Reading part of it is were
55:47the Germans unusually anti-semitic no
55:50the Germans were not more racist than
55:52other people all the evidence that I was
55:54able to find was that in general they
55:55tended to be races not only towards Jews
55:58but towards blacks in the United States
56:00towards the American Indians and towards
56:01the aiges in Australia and what so that
56:04the the the really chilling conclusion I
56:06I draw from that is if what happened in
56:09ger Germany Could Happen among Germans
56:11it could happen anywhere and none of us
56:13should feel safe uh then the next
56:15chapter is black education achievements
56:17myths and tragedies yes
56:21uh I I guess the crucial fact in that is
56:24that uh in 1899 there was a black high
56:26school in Washington we scored higher on
56:29mental test than two of the three white
56:30high schools dunar
56:32dunar and uh a 100 years later it would
56:36be considered utopian to even set that
56:39as a goal and the question is how did
56:42this happen why did it happen and why is
56:45there so little interest in
56:46it and uh the latter especially just is
56:50is very troubling because uh I first
56:53began writing about Dunbar 30 some years
56:55ago uh because people were saying how
56:57how terrible the you know the education
56:59of black kids was and the question is
57:02well what can we do and the answer I
57:04said well black kids have already been
57:05educated successfully we don't have to
57:07speculate and come up with esoteric
57:08theories and so on uh and I I published
57:11this and I found that there was
57:12virtually no interest among among
57:14Educators or politicians or
57:16intellectuals and the few who had any
57:18took any interest at all were concerned
57:20to discredit what was said because it
57:22went so completely counter to what they
57:24already believed what happened done by
57:26High School it was destroyed almost
57:29overnight academically by a
57:30reorganization of the school system what
57:33in your opinion what has to be done in
57:34the black schools or among black
57:37students in order to bring them
57:39up one you get rid of the things that
57:42are dragging them down you stop saying
57:44that speaking black English you know is
57:47just as valid and all that kind of stuff
57:49it may be just as valid to linguists and
57:51so forth but the fact is if you talk
57:54that way you're not likely to get into
57:56school you're not likely to do very much
57:57in your
57:58life we're out of time how much longer
58:01are you going to keep up this pace
58:03writing books and writing your
58:05column well I I I I keep saying that I'm
58:07going to uh slacken off but this only
58:10brings uh hows of derision from my
58:12friends and family
58:15why they claim I can't do it but uh I'm
58:18I'm going to see if I can't slack it off
58:20yeah the same energy you've had all your
58:21life no no uh Heavens I mean I mean
58:25there there are days I wake up thinking
58:27feel feeling this like I'm 19 again but
58:29uh usually by the end of the day
58:31something has happened to remind me that
58:33I am not 19 again Thomas Soul thank you
58:36for letting us come to the Hoover
58:37Institute thank you for having
58:40[Music]
58:47me for a copy on DVD or VHS tape call
58:521877 on cpan for free transcripts or to
58:55learn more about Q&A visit us at q&
58:58a.org

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