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This Shocking Truth About Other People Will Change Your Life — Transcript

by Mel Robbins · 16,463 words · 2,493 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00I had a interesting upbringing. Failed
0:02out of high school with a 0.9 GPA on
0:04welfare, string of minimum wage jobs. I
0:06had like low self-esteem. Recognizing
0:08rock bottom. Something had to change.
0:11Um, and I happened upon a book.
0:15Today's conversation about authenticity
0:18and the lies that you've been told is
0:20going to be life-changing. Dr. Todd
0:22Rose, expert researcher with a PhD from
0:25Harvard, is here to teach you how to
0:27reconnect with your true self so you can
0:29live the life you deserve.
0:30>> Here's the important part about
0:32authenticity. It is a process. It's not
0:34a destination. There's no such thing as
0:37you can put all the work you want in
0:38right now and you're like, I'm done.
0:40It's not how it works. A flourishing
0:42life is one where you grow and change
0:44and discover. And once you realize how
0:46many people end up copying you, you'll
0:48see just how profoundly we're affected
0:50by what we believe other people believe
0:52and expect of us. The only truly bad
0:55decision is when you violate your own
0:58values and aspirations to conform to a
1:01group that didn't want that from you in
1:03the first place. Nobody wins.
1:06We're the first generation now as a
1:08society that has to deal with collective
1:10illusions at scale because of social
1:12media.
1:12>> What is a collective illusion?
1:14Collective delusion is group think, but
1:16you're wrong about the group. Almost
1:182third of people are admitting that they
1:21are self- silencing right now. You
1:23cannot trust your brain to tell you what
1:24your group thinks anymore. It's about
1:26authenticity. Authenticity is the
1:28kryptonite of collective illusions.
1:30probably the single most important study
1:34we've ever done that I think has the
1:36most implications for society and for
1:38individuals is
1:42>> Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to
1:45the Mel Robbins podcast.
1:52Hey, it's Mel. Before we get into this
1:54incredible episode about living a more
1:57authentic life, my team was showing me
2:0057% of you who watch here on YouTube are
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2:19boy, are you here for an incredible
2:21conversation today. So, thanks for
2:22hitting subscribe. All right, you ready?
2:24Good. Let's dive in. Please help me
2:26welcome Dr. Todd Rose to the Mel Robbins
2:29podcast.
2:29>> Thanks for having me.
2:30>> I am so excited to talk to you.
2:32>> Me, too.
2:33>> I'm really excited for so many reasons.
2:35And here's where I want to start. How is
2:38my life going to be different?
2:39>> If you understand and internalize the
2:41ideas we're going to talk about today,
2:42you're going to be more confident.
2:45You're going to live more authentically,
2:47which is going to lead to greater life
2:48satisfaction, happiness, but more
2:51importantly, your relationships are
2:53going to be better, and you're going to
2:54be have a deeper sense of belonging to
2:56the groups that matter most to you.
2:58>> That's a big promise. I'm really excited
3:00for that. I actually believe you.
3:03>> No, I do believe you. I believe you. And
3:04what I'm excited about is I I have this
3:07sense that we are live in a world where
3:10we all feel so divided from one another.
3:13And yet I I I hold firmly to this belief
3:16that the vast majority of us are way
3:19more similar and believe way more of the
3:21same things and want a lot of the same
3:23things than we actually are led to
3:25believe in the world right now.
3:26>> And you're 100% correct. You know what
3:29we do at my think tank populace? We uh
3:31do what's called private opinion
3:32research. So
3:33>> what is private opinion research?
3:35>> So polling it's all public. Oh
3:37>> and it has all the social pressure. You
3:39know there's a right answer. And so it
3:41turns out everybody's misrepresenting
3:43their views right now.
3:44>> You feel like there's this big cost if
3:47you just don't go with the flow or you
3:49just don't agree or you just don't do
3:51what you think everybody else wants you
3:53to do, whether it's your family or at
3:55work or with your friend group. And so
3:57where I want to start is you write a lot
4:00in your bestselling book, Collective
4:02Illusions, about the fact that we are
4:04fundamentally wired to conform. What
4:06does that mean, Todd? Yeah, this is
4:08really important to bring up because
4:10when we talk about conformity, it it
4:12kind of has like a negative connotation,
4:14right? Yes.
4:15>> Like nobody wants to admit they conform
4:17to something.
4:17>> Yes.
4:18>> But here's what's important.
4:19>> We are hardwired to belong to groups.
4:22>> Okay.
4:22>> Evolutionarily, this is how we survive.
4:25And that belonging can lead to
4:27conformity when we feel like we have to
4:28distort who we are to get that
4:30belonging. And if you don't mind, let me
4:32give you an example. I'm going to tell
4:33you about what I think is my favorite
4:35study ever because I can't believe he
4:36got funded to do it.
4:37>> Okay,
4:38>> a colleague of mine in the Netherlands
4:40back in 2009 was a little skeptical
4:42about this conformity, like how deep it
4:44really went. And so he said, "What's the
4:46most subjective thing I could possibly
4:48imagine and see if conformity exists
4:51there." So he decided it was who you
4:53think is good-looking because look,
4:55beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
4:56right? So, and there's no social
4:58pressure to be like, "You should think
4:59they're attractive because I do."
5:01>> Yeah. So he does this clever study. He
5:04puts people in fMRI scanners and he does
5:06a version of hot or not.
5:08>> Okay,
5:09>> really like this is why I can't believe
5:10he got funded. He gets people he shows
5:13them a couple hundred faces and he asks
5:15them to rate them on their
5:16attractiveness from one to five. One no
5:18thank you, five being yes, please.
5:20Right? Which, by the way, you do that
5:22kind of stuff on the street, you're a
5:23creep. Yes.
5:24>> You do it in a scanner, you're a
5:25scientist. But you know, here's what's
5:27wild. So, you're in that scanner and you
5:30see a face and you say, "Well, I think
5:32that's a five. Pretty attractive." What
5:34happens next is instantly you are shown
5:37another number which is supposed to
5:39represent the average score of everyone
5:42who's done this task before you.
5:43>> Okay. So, if I just ranked somebody a
5:46five and then all of a sudden I'm shown,
5:48well, everybody else said they were
5:49three.
5:49>> Yes. Exactly. Right. Um, and then we're
5:52going to watch what happens in your
5:53brain. And here's the thing, that group
5:57number was completely made up. There was
5:58no other group, okay?
5:59>> It's just you.
6:01>> And it was engineered so that half the
6:03time you're told that you and your group
6:06are lock step. You said, you said five,
6:09the group said five. Okay? Right? And on
6:11some of the trials, it makes it wildly
6:14different. You said five, the group said
6:16one.
6:17>> Now, here's what was crazy. On the
6:19trials where you and your group are
6:21aligned, it triggers what we call a
6:24reward signal in your brain. It's the
6:26same areas that hard drugs activate and
6:29it's meant to tell you whatever you're
6:31doing, keep doing it. This is amazing.
6:33Right? On the trials where you were like
6:36five and they said one, it triggers
6:38what's called an error signal in your
6:40brain. It's this cascading electrical
6:42signal that disrupts memory, attention,
6:45everything. It's meant to get you to
6:47stop because something you're doing is
6:49wrong and you might be in danger. So,
6:50this is what happens to your brain. But
6:52that's not even the most interesting
6:53thing. The clever part was then at the
6:56end of the study, you're in the task.
6:59They come in and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry.
7:01Uh, for some reason the equipment didn't
7:03record your responses."
7:04>> Uhhuh.
7:05>> Would you mind just quickly doing the
7:07task again? We're not going to record
7:08your brain. Just quickly do the task
7:09again. They randomize the couple hundred
7:12pictures. They get you to rate them
7:14again. Lo and behold, most people moved
7:18their scores to align with the group and
7:20they didn't even know they did it.
7:22>> Wow.
7:22>> You interview them after, they're like,
7:23"No, that didn't affect me at all." So,
7:26when I say it's hardwired, that's what I
7:28mean. Even as something as subjective as
7:30attractiveness, we just want to be with
7:32our groups. And there's a lot that we'll
7:34do to maintain that group alignment. I
7:36think it's fascinating that there is an
7:39error signal in your brain that when you
7:42recognize that you're not conforming
7:45with group think or group look or group
7:47opinion that automatically signals that
7:51you're on the outside and you need to
7:52stop. And I want to give you another
7:54example to see if I'm tracking with this
7:55because this just happened to me the
7:56other night. Like a lot of people, I am
7:59starting to really care more about my
8:02health and one of the things I am
8:04cutting way back on is alcohol. And so I
8:06have this rule with myself that I'm just
8:07not going to drink during the week.
8:09>> Yeah.
8:10>> Now, fast forward to last night. I'm out
8:13at a restaurant after work and one of my
8:16colleagues turns to me and says, "I
8:18think I'm going to have a glass of wine.
8:19You want a glass of wine?"
8:22>> Okay.
8:22>> Mhm.
8:23>> Can you explain using the research what
8:26just happened? Because here's the thing.
8:28I know I was going to go in there and
8:30order a Diet Coke or club soda or
8:33whatever. The second somebody asked me,
8:35"Hey, you want to have something?"
8:37>> I It's like I make a decision, reflex
8:40it.
8:40>> Didn't even contemplate it. You just
8:42went with it.
8:42>> Well, you know, Todd, you wrote the book
8:44on this. So, I think that's an example
8:46of why this is a really important thing
8:49to understand that is happening in your
8:51physiology and your neurology and
8:53biology. So, what's happening? It's
8:54coming back to that that need to belong
8:57that we just talked about and the
8:58possibility of conformity there because
9:00the norm in our society is when you go
9:02out socially you drink and people that
9:04don't drink aren't fun.
9:06>> That's the stereotype. At the same time,
9:08you don't want to go against the grain.
9:09>> Yes.
9:10>> Right.
9:10>> And but do you know what's interesting?
9:12>> If I had said to my colleague, you know,
9:15I'm just not drinking during the week
9:16right now. I don't think I would have.
9:17You know what they probably would have
9:18said? I don't think I would have
9:19anything either. And that's the thing is
9:20because you don't have the the simple
9:22tips and tricks that you can use to not
9:25put yourself in that well I don't want
9:26to come off as something I don't think I
9:28am. I think I'm fun. I think I'm social.
9:30I like to hang out with people. So
9:32something like um you know what I
9:35decided to take a month off or you know
9:37what I decided I'm not drinking on the
9:39on weekdays because then it doesn't say
9:40I'm not someone who drinks. Right.
9:42Right. It's just I've made that choice.
9:44And you'd be shocked how many people
9:48like the person said, "Hey, I'm having a
9:49drink." We at a table with a bunch of
9:51people and they were like, "Okay, fine."
9:52And then everyone sees two people do it.
9:54You're like, "Okay, there's a lot of
9:56pressure building as they come to you.
9:58And what will you have, sir?" Like,
10:00"I'll have what they're having." You
10:01know,
10:02>> is just the ability to say something
10:04like, "You know what? I've decided to
10:06take a month off or whatever." And no
10:08one's going to say something's wrong
10:10with you. No. But what you'll do is
10:11you'll give them permission to do the
10:13same thing and try it out. It's it's
10:16amazing. And once you realize how many
10:18people end up copying you, you'll see
10:20just how profoundly we're affected by
10:22what we believe other people believe and
10:24expect of us.
10:26>> What is happening in that moment where
10:30you say, "Okay, I'll have what they're
10:31having." Like what's happening in your
10:33brain?
10:33>> So remember we talked about that reward
10:35response.
10:35>> Yep.
10:36>> So your brain has what's called an
10:37anticipated reward response. We know
10:40that when we're aligned with our group,
10:41it feels really good and we want that.
10:44It's like it's not quite like drug
10:46addiction, but it's in that ballpark
10:47where once you're addicted to that drug,
10:49you're chasing the drug. Everything is
10:51about I want that feeling again
10:52>> of belonging. And we're talking about a
10:55deeper sense that's wired in you.
10:58>> It's so deep and it's really important.
11:00And again, I want to say
11:01>> there's nothing wrong with wanting to
11:03belong. You should want to belong. And
11:05you just have to understand when that
11:07need to belong tips into being
11:09controlled or manipulated or bottom line
11:13just leads you to do things that go
11:14against your own judgment, that's when
11:17you start making really bad decisions.
11:19>> I'm really excited because I feel like
11:21this is one of those hidden levers that
11:24we don't realize is just operating in
11:26the background. And when you understand
11:30what you're dealing with, you have so
11:32much more power of it.
11:33>> That's right. After I was booked to run
11:35the show, I actually dug in and read
11:36your book. Let them and I got to tell
11:38you, there are so many parallels. When
11:40we get into all the tools uh later on,
11:43we'll be able to dig into that a little
11:44bit more because there's just so much
11:45overlap. I'm excited to dig in.
11:47>> That's a huge compliment. We'll get into
11:49the tools later, but there's so much
11:51more about your research that I want to
11:52make sure that we fully get to and
11:54understand. One of the terms I'd love to
11:56have you talk a little bit about is this
11:58uh term collective illusions. It's the
12:00title of your best-selling book. Mh.
12:02>> Can you define in very plain terms what
12:05is a collective illusion?
12:07>> Collective illusion is group think, but
12:09you're wrong about the group.
12:11>> So, let me unpack that just a little
12:12bit.
12:13>> It formally is a phenomenon where most
12:16people in a group go along with
12:18something they don't privately agree
12:20with simply because they incorrectly
12:22think that most other people agree with
12:25it.
12:25>> Okay, give me an example. So, one of the
12:27most sticky collective illusions of all
12:30that's been around for multiple decades
12:31that we've tracked is this uh binge
12:34drinking in college.
12:35>> Okay.
12:35>> So, kids leave home, they go to a new
12:38place, they're like, "What does it mean
12:40to be a college student here?"
12:41>> Y
12:41>> and they all think that most kids binge
12:44drink and so they go to a party and they
12:47end up binge drinking when in reality in
12:48private we know as a matter of fact most
12:51college kids are deeply skeptical about
12:53binge drinking. They know it's bad, but
12:55it's what they feel like they need to do
12:57to belong, to be a part to be a college
12:59student.
13:00>> Wow.
13:01>> And it turns out, as what we can talk
13:02about later, no amount of trying to tell
13:04them how bad drinking is works. In fact,
13:07it it propagates the illusion. It's
13:09like,
13:10>> oh, that it's a problem and that
13:11everybody's doing it.
13:12>> Yeah. Why would all the administration
13:14put all these posters up telling us
13:16about the dangers of bing drinking if
13:17people weren't binge drinking?
13:19>> And so it ends up fueling the illusion.
13:21Yes. And so what you know what you need
13:22is to have social proof where you have
13:24popular kids, other people just being
13:27like, I don't I don't binge drink. Why
13:29would I binge drink? You can't lecture
13:31or try to persuade. You have to just
13:32reveal. But this happens all the time.
13:36What's crazy is the phenomenon of
13:37collective illusions we've known about
13:39for about a hundred years in research.
13:42>> Uhhuh.
13:42>> Um it goes back further obviously
13:44because the emperor's new clothes
13:45>> Oh yeah.
13:46>> is about collective illusions. Right.
13:48>> Unpack that for the person that doesn't
13:49know what the emperor's new clothes.
13:50It's a story of the parable of like the
13:53emperor gets convinced by some hu that
13:56they can spin the most beautiful
13:58clothing ever made and it's so fine that
14:01it's invisible to everyone except for
14:03people who are worthy of their station
14:06in life. And the emperor's like
14:08obviously I'm worthy of it. So they make
14:10up this it's and they fake like they're
14:13putting it on him and he's like well
14:14obviously I can see it because if I say
14:16I can't see it then I must not be worthy
14:17of being in charge of everything.
14:19>> Yes. Yes.
14:20>> And then everybody around him wants
14:23power and wants to be close to it. So
14:25they don't want to say you're buck
14:26naked, right? And then the king's
14:29prancing around going outside. All the
14:32crowds line up. They're cheering cuz no
14:33one wants to say it. And then one little
14:35kid is like, "Why are you naked?" And
14:39the innocence of the child to be just
14:41asked the obvious question. And then the
14:43illusion shatters. So we've obviously
14:45this has been a problem in humanity for
14:47a very long time.
14:49What's interesting is up until just
14:52recently
14:53um the the number of illusions,
14:55collective illusions that have harmed us
14:57as a society were pretty small.
15:00>> Yes.
15:00>> But you put it into the social media
15:02age.
15:03>> Yes.
15:03>> And it's just exploded to the point
15:05where now name anything that matters in
15:08life, it's like coin toss whether or not
15:11you're just wrong about what your
15:12community believes now. Well, I also
15:14think like the experience we all have
15:15when you go online and it looks like
15:18every single person, I mean, I'm a 57y
15:21old woman, so it's largely menopause and
15:23interior design and health products.
15:26Like, every single person is taking the
15:28exact same brand of supplement. Every
15:29single person is wearing this exact
15:32makeup line. Every single person is
15:34buying this particular couch. And I feel
15:36like, oh my god, I'm missing out. Like,
15:38everybody has that thing. Yep.
15:39>> And it does feel like it's gotten worse.
15:42And then my daughter was talking today
15:43like, "Well, I'm getting targeted for a
15:45cellulite foam roller that I'm about to
15:47buy because it looks like everybody
15:48that, you know, I follow online is using
15:50it." And so, what are some of the
15:52collective illusions that you can point
15:55to in day-today life that that we may
15:59not be aware that that's what that is?
16:00>> Well, well, let's hit on those, but when
16:02we think about h how is it that we could
16:04end up being so wrong about the groups
16:07that matter so much to us? Like, it's
16:09kind of weird that that would be true,
16:10right?
16:11>> Yes. Let me show you like two things.
16:13One, how they happen in day-today life.
16:15Yes.
16:15>> Without anybody trying to manipulate
16:17you. And then let's talk about what
16:19social media does at this at the
16:20societal level. So,
16:22>> and I think people will have some
16:24similar experience cuz I can remember
16:25the first time that I actually
16:27experienced a collective illusion
16:30>> back. So, growing up, I had I was kind
16:32of a problematic child, which I'm sure
16:33we can talk about. um and didn't really
16:36fit in except for my grandmother who was
16:40like my second mom.
16:41>> Mhm.
16:41>> Whenever I was with her, I could just be
16:43myself and I was good enough.
16:46>> And she decided, I mean, they were very,
16:48very poor. She had me come and sleep
16:50over as a kid once a month. Just me.
16:52Literally, no other grandkids got this.
16:54And when when I was there, she'd make a
16:57bologn sandwich in her little h little
16:59tiny kitchen net. would play yatsi
17:02together and we just talk and I could
17:04share anything with her. Stuff I
17:06couldn't tell my parents, whatever. It
17:08was like literally amazing. It was this
17:10oasis for me in a really tough
17:12environment.
17:13>> We've been sleeping over, sleeping over,
17:15sleeping over. Then one time
17:18she says, "Hey, good news. Um, I'm
17:21taking you to Sizzler, my your grandpa
17:22and I. This steakhouse, this all you can
17:24eat steakhouse." And I was like,
17:26>> "I don't I was like, I don't really want
17:28to go to I just it's noisy there. like I
17:30just want to be here. But I I knew it
17:32meant a lot to them. Yeah.
17:33>> So I went with it and that's what we
17:35started doing
17:36>> instead of just playing Yatsi would go
17:38to Sizzler. And that went on for six
17:40years. Okay. So in 2015 we found out she
17:43was dying. And I went back to Utah where
17:46I was born to say goodbye to her. And I
17:49was preparing. I was like my last
17:50conversation I'm ever going to have with
17:51this woman that meant the world to me.
17:54And I'm holding her hand and I'm we're
17:56talking about a lot of things. And I
17:57thought, you know, I want to just let
17:58her know how transformative those
18:01sleepovers were to me. And I said, you
18:03know, grandma, I just want to tell you
18:04all those times sleeping over, she's
18:07like barely can get a word out. And she
18:09says, she touches my arm. She says, I
18:12know. I know what mattered most to you.
18:14It was going to sizzler.
18:17And I was like, wait, what? Like, and I
18:19I didn't have the heart to be like, uh,
18:22I didn't like that at all. Right. But
18:24she said, "I just to be honest, um, your
18:26grandpa and I didn't really like going
18:28to Sizzler, but we knew it meant a lot
18:30to you." So, I'm sitting there thinking,
18:32"Wait, we all ended up going to Sizzler
18:35once a month for 6 years because we all
18:38thought we all wanted to go to Sizzler
18:40when nobody actually did." Again, I
18:42didn't have the heart to tell her on her
18:43deathbed. She could have had me for a
18:45bologoney sandwich. But that kind of
18:47like nobody was manipulating anyone. We
18:50care about each other. We want each
18:51other to be happy. And we can misread
18:53each other
18:55>> and then just like the the drink
18:56example.
18:57>> Yeah.
18:57>> Nobody wants to question it and we just
19:00keep doing it.
19:00>> Well, you're making my wheels spin now
19:03where I'm sitting here thinking, what
19:05are we all continuing to do as a family?
19:08>> Yes.
19:09>> That we all think we're supposed to be
19:11doing. Like it could even be as
19:13something as simple as we've always had
19:14the same meal for a certain holiday.
19:17Nobody actually likes it. Yeah.
19:20>> Why are we not just doing something
19:22different and talking about it?
19:24>> I promise you if do me one favor is just
19:28go to your family or your significant
19:30other and think about the things you do
19:32on a routine basis.
19:34>> Okay. So, give us some examples.
19:35>> Um I have uh friends that have every
19:38Friday we have salmon night.
19:40>> Yeah.
19:40>> And we watch a movie. Maybe everybody
19:42wants to do that. It could be true. It's
19:44these basic day-to-day things. and just
19:47just say honestly do we still like doing
19:50this? You know what I mean? And just ask
19:52you will be shocked at how many of these
19:55someone's go well actually if you give
19:57me the permission to be honest like
19:59actually maybe we could shake that up a
20:00bit. So if illusions can happen amongst
20:04like tightlyknit
20:06relationships
20:07>> it's not surprising that they can happen
20:09in a country of 300 million people
20:12>> at a societal level. Think about you
20:15have all these identities and you're
20:16tied to these groups that matter to you,
20:18>> but they consist of people you're
20:20probably never going to meet
20:21>> and you have to guess like it like what
20:24does that group believe?
20:26>> You know what I mean? So I can know what
20:27it is I'm trying to align to.
20:29>> Yeah.
20:29>> And here's the thing about your brain
20:31that is just crazy is how your brain
20:34estimates what your group believes.
20:36Because you'd imagine given how
20:38important it is with conformity and
20:40belonging, you'd have some sophisticated
20:42way that your brain calculates like on
20:44average this is what my group believes.
20:46No, there's a shortcut your brain takes.
20:48No kidding. Your brain assumes the
20:51loudest voices repeated the most are the
20:54majority.
20:56>> The loudest voices
20:58>> repeated
20:58>> repeated the most are the majority
21:00>> are the majority. Even when you know
21:02it's not true, even intellectually you
21:04know, oh, this is just Mel telling me
21:06this over and over again.
21:07>> That's your brain is keeping score this
21:10way. So it must have worked. You've
21:12evolved to have this shortcut.
21:14>> But you put that into a social media
21:16age. Yes. Okay. So here's a stat that
21:18blows my mind.
21:19>> Okay. If you take what was Twitter,
21:21which is now X,
21:23research has shown that 80% of all the
21:27content on that platform is generated by
21:31only 10% of the users.
21:33>> 80% of the content you're reading on X
21:35is generated by 10%.
21:36>> 10%. And here's the trick. Pew research
21:39has found that that 10% isn't remotely
21:42representative of the general public.
21:44They are extreme on almost every social
21:47issue. But you can see the problem here.
21:50Let's say 10% of people hold some view,
21:53but you think it's 80%.
21:56>> I think that's what's happened.
21:57>> Uhhuh. That error signal kicks in.
22:00Unless you're willing to override that
22:02and go against what you think your group
22:04believes, what do you do? You end up
22:07self- silencing. You say nothing. Or
22:10worse, you start saying what you think
22:12people want to hear so you can be part
22:14of the group. And when enough people
22:17self- silence, the only people left are
22:20the people on the fringes,
22:21>> the 10% that are the loudest, repeating
22:24everything that we then say say, "Oh,
22:27everybody that's part of that party must
22:29believe that. Everybody that follows
22:31that person must believe that." And what
22:33you're basically saying is the research
22:35is very conclusive. That's absolutely
22:38not true. The loudest voices don't
22:40represent the majority.
22:41>> They don't. In fact, they almost never
22:42do. What? They wouldn't have to be so
22:44loud, right? If you knew everybody
22:45agreed with you, you don't have to say
22:47much. So, but you can see how this is
22:50where then you get these societal level
22:52collective illusions because we're self-
22:53silencing. And our data on this is we
22:56have more private opinion data on the
22:58American public than any organization
23:00I'm quite certain of.
23:02Almost twothirds of people are admitting
23:05that they are self-silencing right now.
23:08That means withholding things that
23:10matter to them because they think other
23:12people disagree. Like this is a very
23:15dangerous place to be when we can't even
23:17be honest with each other. And so the
23:19problem with that is as these illusions
23:21form. Okay. So now I'm thinking, wow,
23:24most people like what happened? What
23:26happened to society? Like am I crazy or
23:28did everybody else seem to go crazy? And
23:31it's like you start feeling alienated
23:33from your group, isolated, a little bit
23:36resentful that you're having to self-
23:38silence. And we see this in the data.
23:40You start losing trust in other people.
23:43And life gets much worse for you, but it
23:45also gets much worse for the rest of us
23:47because as a result, we end up with this
23:50false polarization, right? We feel like
23:53we're completely divided and it becomes
23:54self-fulfilling.
23:55>> Yes.
23:56>> We lose trust in each other and we
23:58become resentful. Now, I want to make
23:59sure that I'm unpacking this because I I
24:02think this is so important what you're
24:03saying and it is so important that you
24:07really take in and I'm going to now call
24:10you Dr. Todd Rose what he is saying
24:13about the data because this is something
24:15that I have held in my heart that has
24:17made me very sad and has also made me
24:21pull back and feel discouraged. I've
24:24bought into the collective illusion of
24:27what the loudest voices, you're saying
24:29it's the 10%, the fringe are saying and
24:32I have presumed
24:36that the majority of people believe in
24:38this.
24:38>> We're the first generation now as a
24:41society that has to deal with collective
24:42illusions at scale because of social
24:44media. Like it just you cannot trust
24:47your brain to tell you what your group
24:48thinks anymore. You can't. And that's a
24:50hard thing to overcome. And when you put
24:52it into social media environment, even
24:55if no there's no bad actors, just the
24:57dynamics of that, the loudest voices
24:59will guarantee that you're going to be
25:01wrong the longer you spend time on
25:03there.
25:03>> Yes.
25:03>> But it gets even worse. So my
25:06organization has partnered with other
25:07organizations. We've been studying the
25:09way in which foreign entities that are
25:12trying to disrupt us have built bot
25:15armies of
25:17>> Russia, China. Y
25:18>> they have millions of bots, some of them
25:20AI enabled now. And we often think when
25:24it's propaganda manipulation that
25:26they're just spreading disinformation.
25:27It's not what they do at all.
25:28>> What do they do?
25:29>> The new form of propaganda is the
25:31ability to manufacture a collective
25:33illusion to
25:34>> meaning like literally like put you in
25:36the matrix of what they want you to
25:38believe by
25:39>> intentionally targeting um especially
25:41Gen Z to convince them that their
25:44communities believe things they don't.
25:46And that need to belong kicks in. I
25:49mean, we're talking about So, we know on
25:51social media at large that roughly 1/4
25:55of all the interactions you ever have
25:57are with bots and you don't know it.
25:59>> Say that again.
26:00>> 1/4 and that's conservative. 1/4 of all
26:03your interactions on social media are
26:06with bots and you don't know it. And
26:08with AI enabled bots, you wouldn't be
26:10able to tell. They are so sophisticated.
26:12So you just have to be careful to know
26:15if you just get to that point and
26:16understand this concept of a collective
26:18illusion. Right.
26:19>> Right.
26:19>> Group think, but you're wrong about the
26:20group. So why would you conform? Like if
26:24you conform to something your group
26:25doesn't want, you're destroying the
26:27group you actually care about.
26:28>> So let me just unpack this because I I
26:30really do think this is critical that a
26:34quarter of the content that you interact
26:36with online are bots and that you
26:39believe that's conservative.
26:40>> Yeah. that the bots are programmed to
26:45convince you to believe something that
26:48the majority of people do not agree
26:49with.
26:50>> Yeah. And I also will extrapolate that
26:54that is why it is more important than
26:57ever that you stop conforming and you
27:01actually take a step back and you deeply
27:04connect with what's important to you and
27:06that you find the courage to start
27:08speaking up because everybody else is
27:11waiting for somebody else to go first.
27:13And I believe regardless of how you
27:15voted, regardless of what country you
27:17live in, there is this deep weariness
27:20within families, within communities,
27:22within friend groups to even talk about
27:24anything because we convince ourselves
27:28that they believe what the bots and the
27:3110% loudest voices believe. And they
27:33don't. And you're here to tell us that
27:35they don't believe that at all.
27:36>> They absolutely do not. I mean, we have
27:38the data. You can download all of the
27:40we've studied everything from the kind
27:42of lives people want to live, the kind
27:43of country they want to live in, what
27:45they want from education, health care,
27:47criminal justice. It is shocking when
27:50you get beyond the social pressure and
27:52the distortion. We are unbelievably
27:54similar in our aspirations, in our
27:57fears, in our desires, but we just don't
27:59believe it's true. And so we act
28:01accordingly. And to your point, when
28:03when we get weary and we just go silent,
28:07it's understandable, but then it becomes
28:09part of the illusion, right?
28:11>> It's true. Because nobody's
28:12>> nobody's speaking up to the people that
28:13matter most reach like yelling at each
28:16other,
28:16>> right? And so we all become caricatures
28:18of some fringe view that nobody really
28:22holds. And so one of the things that
28:25I've been the most proud of is and the
28:26reason why I wanted to write this book
28:28is, you know, you give people a concept
28:31and people go, "Oh, wow. I didn't
28:33realize this." And then it opens up the
28:34ability to start talking about, "Well,
28:36wait a minute." Like, here's some of the
28:38things I think, you know, it's a safe
28:39way to have the conversation. But
28:41>> well, just even hearing that your data
28:44conclusively shows that the majority of
28:47people literally agree
28:50on the things that they care about and
28:52want out of life. Like it makes me go
28:54really cuz I've been in a duck and cover
28:56mode. Like when is this madness going to
28:58end? When are we going to reconnect with
28:59what matters? Like I kind of know that
29:01everybody agrees but why isn't anybody
29:03why is there not a reasonable person
29:04like oh cuz I know a reasonable person
29:06doesn't want to stand up and get caught
29:07in this crossfire. Yep. That's why we're
29:09like, "Okay, when is somebody normal
29:11gonna pop up and and show us the the
29:13way?" But you're here to say, "We all
29:15have the ability to do this."
29:17>> We do. And it's it it's only only we can
29:19do this because like if you think about
29:21it, there are people who profit from the
29:23illusions.
29:24>> Correct.
29:24>> Right. And especially in a in a binary
29:26political system.
29:27>> Yes.
29:27>> Uh there's a lot of benefit to getting
29:30people to be more extreme, right? and
29:33locked into an identity where you you'll
29:35you'll fall on that sword because this
29:37is these are my people.
29:38>> Can can you share the data on what
29:40people actually agree on and care about
29:43so that as you're listening and watching
29:46like this is an incredible episode to
29:48send to family members and to send to
29:50friends that you feel like you can't
29:52talk to anymore because you
29:55believe the collective illusion.
29:57>> Yeah.
29:57>> That they somehow don't agree with you
30:00on core things. So what does the data
30:02say about what people actually care
30:04about?
30:04>> So let's let's take a few things because
30:06we can go all day on this which is
30:07pretty incredible. So we studied the
30:11American aspirations index. So this was
30:12a US focused one. Okay. And we studied
30:15>> what do you want for the country and
30:17there were dozens and dozens and dozens
30:19of possibilities.
30:21And what was shocking to me, we found
30:24that in the top 10 aspirations for the
30:27country, we agreed on eight out of the
30:2910 individual rights. Y
30:31>> uh we still believe that in free speech,
30:34uh treating each other with respect, uh
30:36having everyone have highquality
30:38healthcare.
30:40>> So there's a basic uh kind of life we
30:42want to live together and we know that
30:45we owe each other certain things to make
30:46that life possible. And it turns out we
30:49agree on that. Now, as you said earlier,
30:51back in the day, we might disagree on
30:54how we do it, right? Do you have
30:56Medicare for all? Do you have more like
30:58Romney care we had in Massachusetts? So
31:00there are different ways that we can
31:02debate how to get it done, but it turns
31:03out the ultimate aims were shockingly
31:06similar on
31:07>> I find it extraordinarily encouraging to
31:11hear that underneath all the noise of
31:15the loudest voices and the division and
31:17the bots that human beings agree on
31:22eight out of the 10 things that are the
31:23most important things. What did you find
31:25about our personal lives? like how do
31:27people want to live and how do we like
31:30break us tell me the list on what we
31:32agree on and then let's unpack that.
31:36>> So probably the single most important
31:39study we've ever done that I think has
31:41the most implications for society and
31:44for individuals is it's called the
31:47success index.
31:48>> The success index
31:49>> and we wanted to know what do you mean
31:52by a successful life for you? What kind
31:55of life do you want to live? Nothing's
31:57more important than you feeling like
31:59you're living the kind of life that you
32:01want to live, even if no one else wants
32:02to live it, right? That's literally the
32:04American dream. That's literally like
32:07the key to flourishing. It's the key to
32:10social trust. It's the key to
32:11everything. Okay, so we did this, I
32:13mean, massive private opinion study with
32:16the same kind of trade-offs, right?
32:17Because you can't have everything in
32:18life,
32:18>> right?
32:19>> We had 61 possible attributes for a good
32:22life. So you can pick between 61
32:25>> everything from having a family to being
32:26the richest person you know and
32:28everything in between. Okay. And then
32:30you force the trade-offs in this way
32:31that gives you anonymity and
32:33>> pl you have to rank what you want.
32:35>> It's it's amazing. We can go into
32:36details on how they do it. There's some
32:38stuff on our site that'll show you. It's
32:39really cool. But you can't you can't
32:40game it. It's so good at getting at
32:43private views. Okay.
32:45>> So let's talk about what most people see
32:47in terms of their top priorities for a
32:49good life. It it warms my heart. The
32:52number one priority
32:56for a successful life is I want to do
32:58work that has a positive impact on other
33:00people. They want to contribute. Okay.
33:04In that top 10 across all demographics
33:07were things to do with relationships,
33:11family, character,
33:14self-improvement, and growth. Okay. In
33:17fact, one of the really crazy ones that
33:18I think is important is um across every
33:21demographic in the top 10 was I want to
33:23be more engaged in my community.
33:26>> Now, here's what's interesting. We also
33:28measure how well you're achieving on
33:30these different things. Involved in your
33:32community was the lowest achieved of all
33:34top 10 priorities for your life. In
33:37fact, more people reported being debtree
33:41than involved in their community at the
33:42level they want to. I mean,
33:45>> what does that tell you as a researcher?
33:46>> It tells me that uh well, we've lost
33:49that civic layer of society that gave us
33:51the way to engage and contribute and
33:54they don't know how to do it.
33:55>> And by the way,
33:56>> and then if you also assume
33:57>> so that's nobody agrees with you and
34:00everybody.
34:01>> So this is what when we ask so what do
34:03you think most people see as successful
34:05life? Same trade-off things. It flips
34:09entirely. They think everyone is
34:11obsessed with status, wealth, getting
34:13into the most prestigious school. The
34:16top thing that people think everyone
34:18else cares about is being famous.
34:21>> Really?
34:22>> Okay. In private, it's dead last.
34:26Now, let me unpack why that really
34:28matters. Okay? Because there's an
34:30important thing about collective
34:31illusions, which is this. This
34:33generation's illusions tend to become
34:35next generation's private opinion if you
34:38don't do something. Say that again.
34:40>> This generation's collective illusions
34:42tend to become next generation's private
34:45opinion. So let's use the example of
34:47fame because young kids don't know that
34:49we're lying. So young kids look to
34:52culture, look to media, like look to
34:54each other. What what do we believe?
34:57What do we aspire to? So my colleagues
34:59at UCLA have tracked the effects of
35:02culture and media on middle school kids
35:04for a very long time. Up until a few
35:06years ago, the the top thing that
35:09emerged every year had to do with
35:12character. Think like Mr. Rogers kind of
35:14stuff, right?
35:15>> Wonderful.
35:16>> A few years ago, it switched to I want
35:18to be famous and it hasn't changed back.
35:21I remember they interviewed one kid in
35:23the study and he said, "I want to have a
35:25million followers." They said, "Okay,
35:27for what?" And he said, "Doesn't
35:28matter." So, it's bad enough when these
35:31illusions lead our young kids to pursue
35:35dead ends that we know we know that's
35:37not how you live a good life. That's bad
35:39enough. But when it starts to to become
35:42about the fundamental assumptions of
35:44democracy, of free society, of our
35:47shared humanity,
35:49you can see the real danger to us
35:51individually and collectively. So if
35:54this generation's
35:57collective illusion is that the number
36:01one aspiration in life is being famous
36:04because they have bought into the lie
36:07that that's what everybody else
36:09prioritizes and values. That's what
36:11everybody else thinks matters. How does
36:14that impact the next generation when it
36:16comes to their private opinion?
36:18>> So because again they don't know it's a
36:20lie.
36:20>> Yes. and they're looking to society to
36:23tell them initially what to value. Like
36:25we're social species.
36:26>> Yes,
36:27>> we internalize the norms, the
36:28aspirations,
36:30what does it mean to succeed? Um, and
36:32they will internalize that is, well,
36:34that's what I believe. I mean, they
36:35genuinely believe it. They're not lying.
36:37The kids aren't lying. They'll learn the
36:39hard way again, just like we all have,
36:41that that's a really bad way to think
36:42about living a good life. But that's
36:44really sad. I mean, that has to come to
36:46that. Um, and the at the end of the day,
36:50like what's so important about this, and
36:52we can talk about why when it comes to
36:54collective illusions, it's about
36:57individuals. It's about authenticity.
36:59Authenticity is the kryptonite of
37:02collective illusions. Silence is never
37:04the answer. Authenticity always is. So
37:06is the reason why so many people are
37:10miserable as they're chasing success is
37:12because they're chasing a version of
37:14success that they believe other people
37:16have
37:17>> and let's be fair to all of us. We want
37:19to be successful on our own terms and we
37:22also would love to be recognized for
37:25that.
37:25>> But for what? So if I think being
37:27successful is finding fulfillment and
37:29doing something like literally most
37:31people's view of success is getting
37:33meaning in their life by contributing to
37:35the lives of other people. That's
37:36literally if I could sum it up, right?
37:39>> Well, I want to do that. But I would
37:40also love that you recognize that I do
37:43that and it's valuable. Like nothing
37:44wrong with wanting society to recognize
37:47my accomplishments, my aspirations and
37:50validate them.
37:50>> Yeah. The slippery slope is I can
37:53without thinking, just like with your
37:54drinking example where you're like, I
37:56didn't even think about it and suddenly
37:57I'm having a glass of wine.
37:58>> Yes.
37:59>> Without thinking about it, we can easily
38:01slip into wanting their affirmation
38:03first
38:05>> and corrupting what we choose to do as a
38:09result. And I'll give you why this
38:10matters. In our research, we linked
38:13achievement on that success index.
38:15>> Yeah.
38:16>> To life satisfaction. Like how how happy
38:18are you with your life? Here's what was
38:19amazing.
38:21to the extent that you were achieving on
38:22your private priorities.
38:24>> And just to make sure I'm tracking with
38:26you, people publicly say, "I want the
38:29fame. I want the house. I want the car.
38:32I want
38:32>> I want the fancy car, the biggest
38:33house."
38:34>> But what secretly matters to you is your
38:37family, your friendships,
38:39>> my community,
38:40>> being a good person. If you achieve on
38:42those, it directly increases life
38:44satisfaction. In fact, just
38:46>> if you directly achieve on the things
38:48that are private.
38:49>> Yes. And here's here's the thing. It was
38:51such a big effect because people are
38:53only achieving about 50% of their own
38:55priorities right now. If you bump that
38:57up by just 20 points, which is actually
38:59not hard when what we care about is
39:00being a good person, being involved in
39:02your community. Anyone can do that,
39:04right?
39:04>> Yeah.
39:05>> It led to an increase in life
39:07satisfaction that was the same as
39:09doubling your salary.
39:11>> Wow.
39:11>> Okay. So, it's a big deal. But now, flip
39:14it around. No amount of achievement on
39:16what you think other people value
39:20increases life satisfaction at all. It
39:23is an absolute dead end. I mean, so this
39:25is what I say. This sort of personal
39:27success I think is the most important
39:30illusion we've ever found because it
39:32completely corrupts your own life. It
39:34leads to misery, right? And it's the one
39:38illusion that only you can solve. You
39:41have the power right now to solve that
39:43one. Right? You don't need anyone's
39:44permission to start making different
39:46choices about the life you live.
39:48>> To get honest with yourself about what
39:50privately matters and to stop obsessing
39:54about what you think everybody else
39:56thinks cuz you're here to tell us.
40:00All of that is an illusion. What you
40:02think other people think isn't even what
40:04they privately believe.
40:06>> The group doesn't even believe the thing
40:07that you're about to conform to. And so
40:10when you do it, and enough of us do it,
40:12we literally destroy the very group that
40:14we care about.
40:15>> And when you listen, and that's why I
40:18love this conversation,
40:20you're being reminded of the things that
40:22privately you know deep down are true.
40:25And that you can from this moment
40:28forward start living your life with the
40:31truth because the data shows it.
40:33>> Ask yourself, how would you behave if
40:35you knew for sure that this thing was an
40:38illusion? You know, I mean, if you knew
40:39for sure your group didn't believe the
40:41thing that this fringe is just shouting
40:44at you,
40:44>> well, you'd probably be talking to your
40:46friends more. You'd probably be involved
40:48in your community.
40:49>> Yeah.
40:49>> You'd probably wear what you want to
40:50wear.
40:51>> Yeah.
40:51>> You'd probably speak up more. You know,
40:53cuz what happens when you recognize so
40:57much of the noise is noise.
40:59>> And 80% of us based on the eight out of
41:0310 data that you have been crunching
41:05really want the same things. We may
41:08disagree a little bit on how to achieve
41:10it, but we want the same things. And the
41:12the the kryptonite you said
41:15>> to exploding all of this noise is you
41:21personally
41:22starting to make decisions day by day,
41:27conversation by conversation, moment by
41:29moment that really align with those
41:31deeper things that you want for
41:32yourself. because this this how we live
41:34our lives and the illusion that's like
41:36darkening our doorstep here because
41:39>> if you look at the research on what
41:41happens when we self- silence. So let's
41:43look at the downside of it and then look
41:45at the upside of being authentic. The
41:47downside of self- silencing is shocking.
41:50Okay. So research that followed
41:51longitudinally people who were self-
41:54silencing and people who weren't.
41:56Self- silencers actually have
41:59dramatically higher rates of
42:01cardiovascular disease,
42:03strokes, high cholesterol, everything.
42:05And there's a mechanism for it, which is
42:07basically when you're self-serving or
42:10misrepresenting your views, you get this
42:12cognitive dissonance, you know, this
42:14kind of like I know I'm not being
42:15honest. Cortisol levels
42:17>> elevate and they stay elevated. And
42:20cortisol is good in the short term when
42:22you're under threat and absolutely
42:25toxic. breaks down blood vessels,
42:27everything. Um, the study I'm referring
42:29to actually tracked women who have much
42:31higher rates of self silencing and just
42:32found when you look at all the gaps in
42:35mental health issues, there's usually a
42:36gender gap,
42:38>> right? Eating disorders, depression,
42:40anxiety,
42:40>> autoimmune disorders,
42:41>> autoimmune disorders.
42:43>> When you control for rates of self-
42:44silencing, the gender gap disappears.
42:49>> This is a big deal. This is a big deal
42:51for your physical health. mean to the
42:53person listening who
42:56knows that you're the person that stays
42:58silent in meetings. You're the person
43:00that doesn't rock the boat. So, you're
43:02in conflict with your privately held
43:06beliefs with yourself.
43:07>> Yeah.
43:07>> And you're living like that. And what
43:09you're saying is based on the research,
43:11women do this more than men.
43:13>> And there's lots of reasons why. But in
43:15the data, when you look at people who
43:18are self- silencers, it has
43:22massively negative health outcomes. But
43:24when you remove the gender piece,
43:26>> when you remove the who the self
43:29silencing the effect of that, yes, it
43:30turns out there isn't a gender gap in
43:32those things. It's about self-
43:33silencing. Like that's not everything,
43:35right? There's lots of reasons why we
43:37can end up with anxiety, but I think the
43:39reason I say this is that when we self-
43:42silence, I think we tend to think that
43:44it's sort of benign, right? There's not
43:46much of a cost. Yeah, I don't I don't
43:48feel so good, but I look I I get to fit
43:50in. What I want to show you is no, there
43:53is a profound cost to your physical
43:56health, right? Um there is a cost to
44:00your psychological health. I mean,
44:02self-signing again is correlated with
44:04anxiety, depression, eating disorders,
44:06all these things. Um and there is a cost
44:11to humanity, right? in the false
44:14polarization, the distrust, the
44:16resentment that is pervasive in society
44:19today and democracies do not survive
44:21this kind of threat. And I I will say
44:23one thing which is you know one of my
44:25favorite uh psychologists the the
44:28humanist Carl Rogers said all of
44:32problems in society from nations against
44:34nations, groups against groups boil down
44:37to individuals at war with themselves.
44:41When we start to misrepresent our views,
44:44when we self- silence to fit in,
44:47>> we're at war with ourselves,
44:49>> you're creating this war internally
44:51because you're forcing yourself to stay
44:53silent on something you don't agree
44:55with.
44:56>> That's right. So, you're internalizing
44:57all the downside and you don't recognize
44:59it. And what's funny is we don't connect
45:01those dots. We start seeing our health
45:03start to fail.
45:04>> We see our our mental health start to
45:07deteriorate. And we look for all these
45:08reasons. I don't think it's
45:09coincidental. I don't think it's the
45:10only cause, but I don't think it's
45:11coincidental that our youngest
45:13generation that was literally born
45:14online has this skyrocketing anxiety and
45:18mental health challenges that are real
45:20and they're coming from a number of
45:22places, right?
45:23>> But for sure,
45:24>> one we control
45:24>> this because we know in our data that
45:26Gen Z is self- silencing at the highest
45:29rate of any demographic that we've ever
45:31studied.
45:32>> Why is that?
45:32>> Because they're online more than anybody
45:34else. And how does being online all the
45:37time reinforce this self- silencing?
45:41>> Because when I'm in person, I get a lot
45:43more cues. First of all, I know they're
45:44real people. Like I know a lot of them.
45:47When I'm online, I'm going I'm getting
45:50inundated with likes, with stuff pushed
45:53to me repeatedly. I'm like, and remember
45:55your brain's going loudest voices
45:57repeated the most are the majority. And
46:00so on almost everything, especially when
46:02you're in those formative years, what do
46:05I believe? Who am I? What do I aspire
46:08to? They're being shaped by illusions in
46:11ways that none of us have ever really
46:13experienced. Those of us that at least
46:15remember a time when there wasn't uh
46:17social media. And again, I'm not saying
46:19social media is bad. It's got a lot of
46:21upside, but like any technology, there's
46:23always a downside. And if you don't
46:25recognize the downside, you're going to
46:27live it. Um, I think as a parent, my
46:29heart just collapsed because I
46:32see that paralysis
46:35in self-expression. this like fear that
46:39it's going to be cringey, fear that
46:40somebody's going to judge it, fear that,
46:43you know, you're not going to get the
46:44likes that you want, which is all driven
46:46by conformity, which then has you a
46:51silence yourself and then b now operate
46:55online in a way that you think gets
46:59people to like you because we're wired
47:00for conformity. So, how do you break
47:04this given that we're wired for
47:06conformity and we understand how self-
47:08silence because I self silence at work,
47:10you don't talk in meetings. Self-
47:12silence at works, you don't uh raise
47:14problems. You don't talk about the
47:16mistakes that happened and how you
47:17solved them. Self- silence, you start to
47:20operate the way everybody else does
47:22because you think that's the way you get
47:23ahead.
47:23>> That's right. And by the way, when
47:24everyone starts doing that and starts
47:26conforming, groups lose their vitality.
47:29>> Groups lose their purpose. Right? The
47:31purpose of a group is not blind
47:33conformity. It's that we're better
47:34together.
47:35>> It's that we can cooperate. It's that we
47:37can exchange ideas, right? That I can
47:40learn from you and be like, "Maybe I'm
47:42wrong."
47:43>> But that loses its function.
47:45>> And it just becomes this blind tribalism
47:47>> where we're just like, "Now, who's our
47:49enemy? Okay, we're good because they're
47:51losing." It's just it's it's pretty
47:53horrific. The the trick is is if you
47:56care about living a good life,
47:58authenticity is everything. And by the
48:01way, let me just be clear. Authenticity
48:02doesn't mean you even know all the facts
48:04about yourself. It's that you are acting
48:06in accordance with who you believe you
48:08are in that moment.
48:10>> That's the win. It doesn't mean you're
48:12right.
48:13>> Give me an example.
48:14>> So, I could I could believe um that I
48:18care about football. It's my preference.
48:19I love it so much because, you know, my
48:21mom taught me it. It matters. I do
48:24actually care quite a bit about it.
48:25Like, and and so I express myself that
48:28way, right? I follow the Patriots. It's
48:30a little tough right now, but you know,
48:32we'll get back. Um,
48:34but let's say I turns out I buy season
48:37tickets and I go and I'm like, "Oct, I
48:40don't turns out I don't actually like
48:42football anymore." Or maybe I never did.
48:44I just thought I did. Okay. It wasn't
48:47about being accurate. It's that the
48:49choice I made at the time was consistent
48:51with who I believe I am. M
48:54>> all the benefits of of of authenticity
48:56acrew from that not from being accurate.
48:59>> So in other words, you buying the
49:01Patriot tickets is an authentic
49:04decision. It aligns with what you
49:06believe to be true. You going and
49:07sitting there and freezing your rear end
49:09off while you sit on a sleeping bag, you
49:11know, in the middle of January watching
49:13a game in an open stadium.
49:15>> Quite literally.
49:16>> Yes.
49:16>> And you're like, uh, I don't think I
49:18like this anymore. Yeah. And that is
49:20also an authentic decision. I had the
49:22same experience. I grew up skiing. Love
49:24skiing. Love skiing with my parents.
49:25Love skiing in Northern Michigan.
49:27>> Then I didn't ski for a while. Then I
49:29married a guy who's a ski racer.
49:31>> And you know what I learned? I don't
49:32like skiing that much. And you know, for
49:35I I can tell you an opposite one. Golf.
49:37Hate golf. No time for golf. Don't care
49:39about golf. Didn't get golf. Don't
49:40understand why people watch golf. Then
49:42all of a sudden, I'm riding on a golf
49:45cart with my husband
49:47>> and we're chatting and talking because I
49:48just want to spend some time with them.
49:49that I'm doing it with my parents
49:51>> and I'm like, "Wow, it's kind of
49:52beautiful out here." Wow, we're talking
49:55a lot.
49:56>> Guess what?
49:57>> Turns out
49:57>> I'm now thinking I might want to play
49:58golf. Yeah. And that's authentic.
50:01>> Correct. Because remember, what we don't
50:03want is for you to stop growing and
50:05changing. So, at any moment you have a
50:07set of beliefs about yourself.
50:08>> Yeah.
50:08>> And as long as they're aligned with who
50:10you believe you are, you get all the
50:11benefits of authenticity, which they
50:13they are incredible. A level of
50:15confidence that will just blow your
50:16mind, right? not arrogance, just a deep
50:19confidence in yourself and your ability
50:20to make decisions.
50:22>> Um, people who are authentic actually
50:24have higher levels of viewing the world
50:26as positive sum, which it is. There's
50:28enough and we can grow the pie. Not just
50:31materialistically, but psychologically
50:33and spiritually,
50:35>> right? Like your success does not hurt
50:37me. It actually benefits me. We can all
50:40win. Um, but more importantly, authentic
50:43people have phenomenally better
50:46relationships because obviously, right,
50:48because here's the thing, as we said a
50:50long a while back, we want belonging.
50:53What we end up giving into is fitting
50:55in.
50:56>> What is the difference between belonging
50:59and fitting in?
51:01>> Belonging is when you are recognized,
51:05accepted, and even loved for who you
51:08are. So, you have to do that for
51:10yourself first. But, and because no
51:12one's going to do that for you, but when
51:14you're in groups, and we've all felt
51:15this, right? Like me with my
51:17grandmother, I knew I was good enough,
51:21like flaws and all, it didn't matter.
51:24Like, I didn't have to be somebody else,
51:26even in a small way, for her to love me.
51:30When you have that kind of relationship,
51:32there's nothing better in the world.
51:34Okay? Fitting in is you accept me if
51:40you accept me if if I like the things
51:43you like. If I do the things you want me
51:46to do, if I decide to be a computer
51:49scientist instead of an artist, so many
51:51of our relationships are built on that
51:53kind of if.
51:56And you know, just like um when you're
51:58not physically healthy, you forget what
52:01it feels like to be healthy. M
52:04>> when we're used to fitting in, we forget
52:06what it feels like to truly belong. And
52:08and I'll say this and I'll say this to
52:10anyone listening or viewing. You deserve
52:12to belong. You should not accept the
52:16status of just fitting in it. It's not
52:19good enough. It doesn't lead to the
52:21place that you want it to lead to and it
52:23causes a lot of harm to you and society.
52:25>> What is the first step? Because I think
52:29as you're listening,
52:32what you just said is both a wakeup call
52:35and it can be a little crushing to your
52:38soul when you recognize your whole life
52:41all you've tried to do is fit in.
52:43>> Yeah.
52:43>> And I know that everybody wants to feel
52:46like their authentic self. Everybody
52:48wants to be proud of themselves. Like
52:50you want to lay your head down on the
52:52pillow at night and know that you did
52:54the best that you could. You made the
52:55best decisions that you could. that
52:57you're proud of how you showed up, that
52:59you had good intentions. That is the
53:03gold standard. That you, you know, it
53:05was a good day because you tried the
53:07best that you could to be a good person.
53:09And that starts with you being making
53:12good decisions for yourself and not
53:15self- silencing to fit in.
53:16>> Here's the important part about
53:17authenticity. It is a process. It's not
53:21a destination. There's no such thing as
53:23you could put all the work you want in
53:24right now and you're like, I'm done.
53:26It's that's not how it works because a
53:29flourishing life is one where you grow
53:31and change and discover and all that
53:33stuff. So even if you were 100% right
53:36right now, if you lock that in, you'd be
53:39inauthentic in the future. So the things
53:42that people need to understand is again,
53:44it's never too late. This is what's
53:45amazing. All the benefits of
53:47authenticity, the research shows like
53:49they acrew very quickly to you no matter
53:51how old you are, no matter where you're
53:53starting from. Um it's it's pretty
53:56amazing. You just have to get started.
53:57Okay. And here's the thing. There's
53:59there's two things from my perspective.
54:01>> Um the first is getting a handle on what
54:04you think you really believe.
54:05>> How do you do that when you're like been
54:08gaslit by all the noise?
54:10>> Here's a very simple uh step that I've
54:13used and I've shared and people have
54:14used and it's worked.
54:16>> Ask yourself why on things you believe
54:18you believe. Because when they're your
54:20honest beliefs that you've arrived at,
54:23you know why. I'll give you an example.
54:25I have a deep commitment like probably
54:28most people to human rights. It might be
54:31the most important concept to me of
54:33anything in the world that every
54:35individual has moral worth and we are
54:38equal to one another and we are never
54:40ever a means to someone else's ends.
54:43That's how I want to be viewed and
54:44treated. That's how I will view and
54:46treat other people. Human rights flows
54:49from dignity. Okay? So, I know for sure
54:52I believe that.
54:54But you'll be shocked at how many things
54:56you think you believe are just the norms
54:58of your society that you've never really
55:01questioned because you want to fit in.
55:03For me, um didn't do very well in school
55:06and we can that that's a understatement.
55:08I failed out of high school with a 0.9
55:10GPA.
55:11>> 0.9 that's possible.
55:13>> You have to work really hard to do that
55:14poorly. You know, I ended up failing
55:16out. Um, a couple of months later, my
55:19girlfriend at the time, who was my wife
55:20for 29 years, found out she was
55:22pregnant. And this is rural Utah. Not
55:25not something one does in rural Utah. We
55:28were on welfare. We ended up with two
55:30kids. Um, by the time I was 20, doing a
55:34string of minimum wage jobs. I mean, I
55:37had a paper route at 4 a.m. to
55:40supplement our income. We were selling
55:42blood plasma, you know, all the things
55:43you have to do. Um, and recognizing Rock
55:49Bottom, I was working at what was
55:52Circuit City, which they've gone out of
55:53business now. Uh, and on my lunch break,
55:56I didn't have any money. So, I went over
55:57to Barnes & Noble and I was perusing the
56:00self-help section. I had like no
56:02self-esteem. No, you know, I'd lied to
56:04myself a lot.
56:06>> Um,
56:07>> I knew I knew something had to change.
56:09And I happened upon a book called the
56:12six pillars of self-esteem
56:13>> by Nathaniel Brandon said self-esteem is
56:16not something you can directly act on.
56:18>> It's the alignment of your beliefs and
56:20your behavior. And if your behavior and
56:22beliefs don't align, you won't respect
56:24yourself. Why would you? But this was
56:27the nugget for me that completely
56:29changed my life.
56:32I had always assumed that my beliefs
56:35were my beliefs and that my behavior was
56:37what needed to change.
56:39But this book told me that's not true.
56:42>> That you may not actually believe the
56:45things you believe that you believe. And
56:47in my case, it was religious in nature.
56:50>> I had tried so hard to align my
56:53behaviors to a set of beliefs that came
56:55from my religion
56:56>> and I just failed a lot. And know those
56:59behaviors weren't bad behaviors, they
57:01were just inconsistent. M
57:04>> and I thought, well, wait a minute, it
57:06could be my beliefs that are the thing
57:08that's causing the problem. And so I
57:10spent a lot of time thinking about,
57:11well, why do I believe this? And I
57:12realized I didn't believe.
57:15And once I recognized that and started
57:18on the path of thinking about what is
57:19it, who am I? What do I believe? Um,
57:22things got a lot easier. A lot easier.
57:25>> Why?
57:26>> Because suddenly I knew the root
57:28problem. I was constantly trying to get
57:30my behavior to align just like if you're
57:32trying to conform to a group constantly
57:34trying to what am I supposed to do now?
57:36What do we do? How do I dress? What do I
57:38what do I drink? You know, what do what
57:40career do I choose? And once that I had
57:44permission to start questioning my own
57:45beliefs,
57:46>> I was able to get on a different path.
57:49>> Um, and it never would have changed
57:52without that.
57:53>> I I think that's super profound. And I
57:54think it's also crazy inspiring that you
57:57went from there to becoming a graduate
58:00school professor at Harvard and now
58:01running a think tank and doing this
58:03deeply important work. And I was so
58:06excited to have you on because I
58:08fundamentally refuse to believe that we
58:10are this divided.
58:11>> Yeah.
58:12>> I fundamentally refuse to believe that
58:14people are unreasonable or lack
58:17character. I also fundamentally refuse
58:21to give that much power to all the
58:23noise.
58:23>> Right. And you know, one of the things
58:25that I I want to hover on the
58:28authenticity piece because when somebody
58:31walks into a room that is very much
58:36authentically themselves, whether they
58:38have on just a cool outfit or they have
58:43a energy about them or there's a
58:45kindness to them, whatever it may be,
58:48you feel it.
58:50>> The energy of that is unbelievable. It
58:52is intoxicating and and and it's not a
58:55level of arrogance. There is something
58:57that that I truly believe that we're all
59:01yearning for it and we're looking for
59:05someone.
59:06>> Yeah.
59:06>> To give us the permission.
59:08>> That's right. And and they just they're
59:10not trying to get you to do something.
59:12They just I'm going to be me, you be
59:13you. Put it in different terms like let
59:15them let me. Right. And they're they're
59:16they're the embodiment of that. Some
59:18things happen because we so deeply want
59:21that. We gravitate toward the energy
59:23there is real.
59:25>> So how do you cultivate that energy? You
59:27mentioned let them and let me. And you
59:29also when we were talking said that is a
59:33tool that really helps you apply this
59:36this research and this data that let
59:39them like why don't you explain it
59:41because how can you use those two words
59:44let them
59:45>> and those two words let me
59:48>> as a way for you to start to become more
59:50authentically yourself. Well, this is
59:52why I was so excited to talk to you
59:53because my scientific research, the work
59:55we do at Populace, my think tank, is I
59:58would say what we've uncovered is the
1:00:00science behind
1:00:02let them let me. We talked a lot about
1:00:05the conformity and all the problems
1:00:06there, but also the broader societal
1:00:09consequences of not doing that.
1:00:11>> Wow.
1:00:12>> Right. So, what do we know about how we
1:00:13shatter illusions, how we get back to
1:00:15authenticity?
1:00:17And it's the the practical stuff you
1:00:20need to do to get on that path.
1:00:22>> When I looked at when I read your book,
1:00:24I was like, okay, this if you just do
1:00:26this, it's not it's not easy. It's
1:00:28simple, but it's not easy.
1:00:31>> Right? And so, bringing it to a level of
1:00:33getting people on that journey, again,
1:00:35authenticity is a journey. It's process.
1:00:37It's not a destination. You can start
1:00:39anytime, anywhere, no matter how old you
1:00:41are, no matter what your circumstances.
1:00:44Then if all we did, and we'll tell I'll
1:00:47tell you why. If you lean into let them,
1:00:51I mean, you've framed it a lot and I
1:00:52think it's right around how miserable we
1:00:54get when we try to control everybody
1:00:55else. But it goes a little further,
1:00:57right? Because as we start to
1:01:00participate in that sort of like you
1:01:03should believe what I'm saying too.
1:01:05>> And what's funny about collective
1:01:07illusions and this is one of those like
1:01:08I could not believe this. So once you
1:01:11start lying about your views, the
1:01:13research is pretty clear. You start to
1:01:15lean into that. You become an enforcer
1:01:17of it. It's
1:01:18>> because you don't want to admit you're
1:01:19wrong.
1:01:19>> Yes. And because you always think people
1:01:21are going to find me out
1:01:22>> because I know I'm lying. It's called
1:01:24the illusion of transparency. They think
1:01:26everyone can tell that I'm not really a
1:01:28true believer. And so it turns out that
1:01:30people who lie about their views have a
1:01:33high probability to become enforcers of
1:01:35that view on other people. I'll give you
1:01:37a concrete example. Like if I hear every
1:01:39time I hear a pastor who's anti-gay now,
1:01:42I'm like, they're probably gay. That the
1:01:45number of times that that just turns out
1:01:46to be true, I'm like, yeah, you're
1:01:47you're protesting a bit much, right? But
1:01:50like once you're hiding that part of
1:01:52yourself, you start to become the person
1:01:54that's literally leads the witch hunt to
1:01:56prove like, "No, look, I'm a true
1:01:58believer." And so like don't be that
1:02:00person, right? Because like the the let
1:02:03them part of it is the more you're
1:02:05seeking to control other people, not
1:02:07just their behavior, but their beliefs.
1:02:09You are leading them down a path of
1:02:11self- silencing that will be
1:02:13catastrophic for them. But now you also
1:02:15know it's catastrophic for all of us.
1:02:18Well, the other application that I see
1:02:20based on everything you shared is that
1:02:23very profound difference between feeling
1:02:27a sense of belonging versus an obsession
1:02:30with trying to fit in. And to me, if you
1:02:34could speak a little bit about how the
1:02:36let them and the let me really gives you
1:02:39a tool to notice those moments where
1:02:42you're so scared of other people's
1:02:44opinion or you're so seeking fitting in
1:02:47that you cut off access to authenticity
1:02:49and belonging.
1:02:50>> That's right. And so we to the let them
1:02:53side, right? Because you are literally
1:02:54making it
1:02:56>> less likely that the people around you
1:02:58can live authentic lives. you talked
1:03:00about this so well in the book like like
1:03:02the kids like really okay for the for
1:03:04the dance you're going to really you
1:03:05haven't okay they want to wear certain
1:03:07things they want to do these things it's
1:03:08like let them because part of that is
1:03:11let them be their authentic self
1:03:13>> oh I just yes
1:03:16your need to control is actually
1:03:18teaching other people that they have to
1:03:20fit in
1:03:21>> and you are squashing somebody else's
1:03:23authenticity
1:03:24>> exactly right
1:03:25>> so it's how you stop yourself from
1:03:26making people conform
1:03:27>> correct and then you flip it and the let
1:03:29me I deserve to be authentic.
1:03:34And so that flip side, if I'm going to
1:03:36give that same grace to other people
1:03:37now,
1:03:39I owe it to myself to give myself that
1:03:41same grace.
1:03:42I deserve to belong. I don't need to
1:03:44settle for sit for fitting in,
1:03:47>> right? I deserve all the benefits that
1:03:50come from being my truest self.
1:03:53Um, and I shouldn't compromise that just
1:03:56because I believe other people want
1:03:58something different. And again, when
1:04:00collective illusions are layered into
1:04:02that, that thing you're about to like
1:04:03give up your authenticity for, they
1:04:05don't even want. Like, so what are we
1:04:08doing?
1:04:08>> I I I just want to say I was kind of
1:04:10blown away because when I first started
1:04:13using let them first, it was really to
1:04:17stop trying to control everybody so that
1:04:19I wasn't so stressed out all the time.
1:04:21>> Right. But then it became very clear how
1:04:24my default was to fit in. My default was
1:04:27to seek approval. My default was to make
1:04:30everybody else happy. My default was to
1:04:32buy into the collective illusion and
1:04:35allow that to dictate what I do or don't
1:04:38do. Like navigating your life based on
1:04:40everybody else. And you're telling us
1:04:43all of the things that you believe
1:04:45everybody else believes they're largely
1:04:47wrong. Mhm.
1:04:48>> And we're all desperate for somebody to
1:04:52say, "Hey, it's time to just stand up
1:04:54and be authentic. It's time for you to
1:04:56stop trying to fit in, and it's time for
1:04:58you to make decisions and live your life
1:04:59in a way that really aligns with you."
1:05:01And I hadn't thought about the let me
1:05:03part
1:05:04>> truly as a tool for authenticity and
1:05:07courage in that way.
1:05:07>> And that's what that's that's how it
1:05:09resonated with me, which isn't that
1:05:10funny. Um, and if you read all of our
1:05:12research
1:05:14and you realize, wait, so if I let them
1:05:18>> be their authentic self,
1:05:19>> and we do that at scale,
1:05:22what kind of society would we have?
1:05:24Well, see, I worry that if we let people
1:05:26be their authentic self
1:05:29>> that we would have a runaway train of
1:05:32people who are selfish and not
1:05:34conscientious and who are chasing fame
1:05:37and profit and trashing human beings for
1:05:40all the tech giants and that bots would
1:05:43run the world. And what you're now
1:05:45teaching me is that my belief that if I
1:05:49just let people run wild, the worst of
1:05:51humanity would rise to the top. And
1:05:54you're telling me, Mel,
1:05:55>> not true.
1:05:56>> What is true?
1:05:57>> Go back to the success index.
1:05:59>> Okay.
1:05:59>> The private highest aspirations we have
1:06:02for the lives we want to live ourselves.
1:06:05Okay? Remember, top trade-off priority.
1:06:09I want to do work that has a positive
1:06:11impact on other people.
1:06:12>> I want to be trustworthy.
1:06:15I want to have a family. I want to be
1:06:17good to other people. I want to be
1:06:20involved in my community.
1:06:22I want to achieve on things that matter.
1:06:25I I want an education. I want these
1:06:27things. Like this is what people would
1:06:29do if we leaned in to let them let me.
1:06:34>> And the only reason we're afraid of it
1:06:36is because we've fallen for the
1:06:37illusions, right? We we've been with
1:06:38this illusion for a while. And so we're
1:06:40like, oh, I mean, it's funny. Um, we
1:06:42asked people about trust.
1:06:44>> Yeah.
1:06:45>> Privately, are you trustworthy? 93% of
1:06:47people said, of course, I'm trustworthy
1:06:50and I want that. it matters to me. What
1:06:52do you think other people would say? Oh,
1:06:54no, no, no. Other people don't care
1:06:56about being trustworthy. They're not
1:06:57trustworthy. And you're like, "Yeah,
1:06:59it's a massive illusion." And so, if I'm
1:07:01looking around thinking other people
1:07:02don't even care about being trustworthy,
1:07:05>> and I think they all want fame and the
1:07:07zero sum, like winner take all, they
1:07:10will step on my
1:07:12>> Yes.
1:07:12>> to get to me.
1:07:14>> Why would I want to let them
1:07:16>> Yes.
1:07:16>> be able to live their authentic lives?
1:07:18Because if that were who they really
1:07:20are, that would be awful. And so what we
1:07:22end up doing is having to control
1:07:24everybody. Yes.
1:07:25>> And that's true in our interpersonal
1:07:26lives that you you wrote about. It's
1:07:28also true all the way up to our
1:07:29political lives
1:07:31>> where we've given up on these
1:07:32fundamental values like you know what,
1:07:35you live your life, I'll live mine as
1:07:37long as we're not hurting each other.
1:07:39Like we've lost a willingness to invest
1:07:41in one another because we believe the
1:07:44illusion.
1:07:45>> Where did all this lack of trust come
1:07:47from? I know you have a story.
1:07:48>> So we have um so social trust which is
1:07:52trust in strangers.
1:07:53>> Okay.
1:07:54>> Right. The single best predictor of the
1:07:56health and flourishing of democracies.
1:07:58At the end of the day we talk about
1:07:59trust in institutions. I don't need to
1:08:01trust the government. I need to have
1:08:03confidence that they'll do what they
1:08:05say. So accountability, transparency.
1:08:08The only trust that matters is that we
1:08:10trust each other.
1:08:12>> So it predicts almost everything that
1:08:14matters uh collectively. Um, and ever
1:08:18since we implemented in in the 1930s in
1:08:22the in the United States scientific
1:08:24management, Frederick Taylor, which is
1:08:25where we got standardization to
1:08:26everything,
1:08:27>> everything became standardized. He
1:08:29invented the concept of a manager. So,
1:08:30you just do the job. I'm telling you,
1:08:32you don't get any say in what you do in
1:08:34the name of efficiency.
1:08:36Every single generation since has had
1:08:38lower social trust in the preceding
1:08:40generation. Right now in America, we
1:08:42have the lowest levels of social trust
1:08:44ever recorded. Now, is that true or is
1:08:46that an illusion? You know what I'm
1:08:47saying? Like, it's even worse in private
1:08:49right now than it is in public.
1:08:51>> Oh, no.
1:08:51>> Now, here's the good news, though. Okay.
1:08:53And this is what matters. If I could
1:08:55wave a magic wand and say, "What's the
1:08:56one thing I could change about this
1:08:57country besides and again honestly,
1:09:00everybody leaning in to let them and let
1:09:02me because the illusions would have
1:09:03nowhere to hide and we'd obviously see
1:09:05that we have a lot in common and that
1:09:07people trusted.
1:09:08>> It's this illusion of trust." Okay.
1:09:12What's interesting in our data? So when
1:09:15you look across the world like
1:09:16Scandinavian countries have very high
1:09:18levels of social trust and you can see
1:09:20the cohesion the the trust in each other
1:09:22the investment each other you only have
1:09:24to get above 50% social trust for that
1:09:26to kick in. When a majority of people
1:09:28believe a majority of people in their
1:09:30society are trustworthy.
1:09:31>> Yeah.
1:09:32>> Good things start to happen.
1:09:33>> Yes.
1:09:33>> When you dip into like the 30s
1:09:36>> it spirals the other way. Right. We
1:09:38start to need to control each other.
1:09:40We're we're in the low mid30s right now.
1:09:43Okay. In our data though, in private,
1:09:46here's what's I think is fascinating.
1:09:48If you cut the data by whether you're
1:09:51self- silencing,
1:09:53people that self- silence have the
1:09:55lowest levels of social trust ever. It's
1:09:59they are like in the low30s percents of
1:10:02people who believe other people can be
1:10:03trusted. Okay? If you're one of the
1:10:06one-third that hasn't self- silenced,
1:10:09they have levels of social trust that
1:10:11rival Scandinavian countries.
1:10:14>> So, there's something about feeling like
1:10:16you're in a society where you can't even
1:10:18say your opinion.
1:10:21Why would I trust everybody else if I
1:10:23feel like I can't be me?
1:10:25>> Yeah. So this issue of needing to
1:10:28reclaim an authenticity,
1:10:30it might be the single most important
1:10:32thing you could do to heal your society
1:10:35because it is the fastest way to
1:10:37increase social trust.
1:10:38>> Well, I can give an example that came to
1:10:40mind as you were talking about
1:10:42plummeting trust. If you have ever had
1:10:45any kind of tragedy
1:10:48hit your community, whether it's a fire
1:10:50or a flood or something else, what
1:10:53happens?
1:10:54>> Yeah. People reveal who they are at
1:10:55their core. Like you have some illness
1:10:58in a family. Family members that are
1:11:00divided on politics that haven't talked
1:11:02for two years. Yeah.
1:11:03>> All of a sudden come in because it
1:11:06reduces us to just our core values in a
1:11:11moment where it's all hands on deck.
1:11:14>> It's you're exactly right. Like I had a
1:11:16um you know a couple years ago I lost my
1:11:18wife 29 years and it was unbelievable to
1:11:22see people who I thought I had beefs
1:11:24with right um some we we had had
1:11:27challenges it doesn't matter anymore
1:11:30there's this common humanity that comes
1:11:32together. Um and you're right you see
1:11:34this in these uh trauma and tragedy we
1:11:38reveal who we are. M
1:11:39>> okay if
1:11:40>> why is that true
1:11:41>> because um the norm around tragedy right
1:11:46we have norms in this country and other
1:11:48countries that it's all hands on deck we
1:11:50just rally that's what we do okay um I
1:11:53was a little worried some of the last
1:11:55natural disasters in the country when
1:11:57the first thing we saw was the
1:11:58politization of it the the blaming right
1:12:01off the bat but then that that dissolved
1:12:03pretty quick at the ground level
1:12:04>> into we need to help each other because
1:12:07as human beings we empathize That's one
1:12:09of our magical traits, right? We can put
1:12:12ourselves in other people's shoes. We
1:12:14can think about how we would want to be
1:12:15treated and we can activate compassion
1:12:17and act on it. When we see people in
1:12:20those times of need, it reveals who what
1:12:22our real character is. Imagine what it
1:12:25would have been like if the illusion was
1:12:26correct
1:12:27>> that nobody cares. We don't trust you.
1:12:29Nobody shows up.
1:12:30>> Nobody shows up. And the pro the thing
1:12:32right now that's not the case. But if we
1:12:34don't recognize this problem and take
1:12:37some responsibility for it, it could
1:12:39become the case. Do you truly believe
1:12:43based on all of this data that if
1:12:47every single one of us as an individual
1:12:51were to really embrace
1:12:55the facts
1:12:57that when it comes to the things that we
1:13:00all value as human beings, we all value
1:13:03the same 80% of things. So we are all so
1:13:06much more alike. Mhm.
1:13:08>> We want the same things for ourselves
1:13:10and each other. If we were to operate
1:13:12with that and then we were to go into
1:13:15our day-to-day lives and say, "My only
1:13:18job is to let other people be themselves
1:13:22and be who they are and with the
1:13:24presumption that underneath it they
1:13:27value character.
1:13:28>> Underneath it they want meaningful work.
1:13:30Underneath it they want better for their
1:13:33friends and for their family."
1:13:35that if we operate like that and then we
1:13:38also say to ourselves, my job is to then
1:13:43show up and make decisions
1:13:45with the information. I have the best
1:13:47that I can dayto-day
1:13:49>> that really align what I truly value.
1:13:51like to give myself that permission and
1:13:54to find the courage to do it. Whether
1:13:56it's how you post on social or whether
1:13:58you talk at work or whether you ski or
1:14:00not this season,
1:14:01>> whether you want to live where you live,
1:14:03whether you want to go to Sizzlers or
1:14:05not, like that you just start to slowly
1:14:10calibrate your life
1:14:12back toward the things that you know
1:14:15deeply matter to you. Like simply
1:14:17volunteering in a place in your
1:14:19community would make you feel more
1:14:21authentic.
1:14:22>> Yes.
1:14:22>> Changing your major could make you feel
1:14:24more authentic.
1:14:26Asking your brother or sister for a
1:14:28little help with mom and dad because
1:14:29you've self- silenced would make you
1:14:31feel a little authentic. It doesn't have
1:14:32to do with what they are going to say.
1:14:34>> That's right.
1:14:35>> You may have a collective illusion that
1:14:37they're not going to do anything because
1:14:39you think everybody's selfish now.
1:14:41>> But that's the noise. The truth is deep
1:14:43down
1:14:44>> people care about the same things
1:14:46>> and it and
1:14:47>> like it starts with you. You really
1:14:49believe that that's what's going to turn
1:14:51this all around.
1:14:52>> Yeah. Let me let me give you a
1:14:53historical example when I say because it
1:14:55feels like
1:14:56>> the problems are too big.
1:14:58>> Yes.
1:14:59>> Um they must require these big
1:15:00solutions. It's not true. Let me give
1:15:02you an example uh as a reformed
1:15:04academic. I'm going to lean into a
1:15:06bigger example just once but I think
1:15:08it's important. Um when the problem is a
1:15:11collective illusion and you pursue the
1:15:14right strategy which is this
1:15:15authenticity strategy right it's not
1:15:17about persuading it's about revealing
1:15:19showing people the kind of social change
1:15:22that can happen at a how fast it can
1:15:25happen how big it can happen the best
1:15:28example of this is the velvet revolution
1:15:31in Czechoslovakia this has puzzled
1:15:33historians for a long time it happened
1:15:35in 19 late late ' 80s Czechoslovakia
1:15:38They had been under communist rule for a
1:15:40long time, just brutal. Other countries
1:15:42had tried to revolt, Hungary, other like
1:15:46bloody massacres as a result. The Velvet
1:15:48Revolution is famous because it's the
1:15:50only time a people have overthrown a
1:15:53communist regime uh without a single
1:15:56person dying, without a single shot
1:15:58being fired. Okay.
1:15:59>> Wow.
1:15:59>> And people are like, "How does that
1:16:01happen? It's an anomaly." Okay. The best
1:16:03part about it is who led it. And this is
1:16:05how you'll get to the secret of it.
1:16:07There's a person named Boss Le Pavl.
1:16:09Okay? And I'm going to say right now for
1:16:12everyone listening or watching, if you
1:16:15go online, you can download for free
1:16:17online. He wrote a manifesto about this
1:16:19called the power of the powerless.
1:16:22That is will chill you to the bones. It
1:16:25will sound like he's writing about our
1:16:27time today. Um but he he writes about
1:16:30how he discovered the real problem in
1:16:32their society was this collective
1:16:33illusion.
1:16:35So he's had no military experience. He
1:16:38wasn't a politician. He was a poet and a
1:16:41playwright.
1:16:43And he was anti-communist.
1:16:46But he he decides he writes this play
1:16:48called The Garden Party. And it was a
1:16:50satire about communism. It was so subtle
1:16:53that the sensors didn't even know they
1:16:55were being made fun of. Okay. So he puts
1:16:56it on. It becomes a runaway hit. It's
1:17:00like the Hamilton of the time there. It
1:17:03sold out every night. He attends every
1:17:05single uh play and he doesn't watch the
1:17:08play, he watches the audience.
1:17:11And he said they laughed at all the
1:17:13right parts. They laughed at things that
1:17:15you would not find funny if you truly
1:17:17believed in communism. And he writes in
1:17:19the power of the powerless that he
1:17:21recognizes the fundamental problem was
1:17:23not that the people of Czechoslovakia
1:17:25believed in communism. It's that they
1:17:26believed that they believed.
1:17:28>> It was a collective illusion. I mean, I
1:17:30don't know how he got there, but it's
1:17:32amazing he figured it out.
1:17:34The solution then was not weapons. It
1:17:38was not even political. It was
1:17:40authenticity. He called it authenticity
1:17:42and personal responsibility. And here's
1:17:45what he did. He said, "Well, then the
1:17:47answer is we've got to create ways for
1:17:49people to start to be comfortable living
1:17:51in truth again because we've become way
1:17:53too comfortable living in the lie."
1:17:55Okay. So, he starts what he called the
1:17:57small works.
1:18:00How do we help people start to lean into
1:18:02their authentic selves in ways that
1:18:04weren't risky to begin with? Literally
1:18:06created a literary magazine so people
1:18:08could publish poetry. They did
1:18:10gardening. They did all these things.
1:18:12People mocked him. Mocked him. Like even
1:18:15people who his fellow revolutionaries
1:18:16were like, "This is so naive. You're
1:18:19they have all the guns. You're going to
1:18:21defeat them with authenticity and
1:18:22personal responsibility."
1:18:25But they did. And here's what's crazy.
1:18:28Nobody saw it coming.
1:18:31The CIA completely missed it. The KGB
1:18:34missed it entirely. Even Havl himself
1:18:37didn't appreciate how fast it could
1:18:39change when it was an illusion. Just a
1:18:41few months before the student protest
1:18:43that led 12 days of protest, government
1:18:46falls. He's interviewed in an
1:18:48international magazine and he's trying
1:18:49to rally the troops and he's like,
1:18:51"Look, revolutions take time. Um, you
1:18:54have to be committed." He's like, "Look,
1:18:56I probably won't even be alive to see
1:18:58the end of this, but I am in it." Right?
1:19:02Three months later, he was the first
1:19:04democratically elected president of a
1:19:06free Czechoslovakia. That's what I mean
1:19:08when I say when when the problem is an
1:19:10illusion, two things. Only we can solve
1:19:13it.
1:19:14>> It didn't require somebody from on high
1:19:17telling us something. It was the
1:19:19everyday people learning to live in
1:19:21truth in small ways that start to build
1:19:25habit that lead to a we believe we
1:19:28believe this now, right? And I think
1:19:30about it I think about that story all
1:19:32the time because I think look if a poet
1:19:34can overthrow communism under a
1:19:36collective illusion. Think what you can
1:19:39do in your own life. Think what we can
1:19:41do together. I promise you the power of
1:19:44the powerless. It's free. It's like 80
1:19:46pages. It is unbelievable. It is never
1:19:50forget like this thing that you want
1:19:53more than anything to be authentic and
1:19:57you should want it. It's like almost
1:19:58magical in what it does for you and for
1:20:00us
1:20:02is the thing that you should do for
1:20:04yourself and again it is the most
1:20:07important thing you could do to heal
1:20:09society
1:20:10>> or your family
1:20:13your relationship.
1:20:15>> Yeah. It's a journey. Um, you say this
1:20:18all the time, right? I think we we
1:20:20overestimate what we can do in the short
1:20:21term and we underestimate what can
1:20:23happen over time.
1:20:24>> Long term. Yeah. And we also
1:20:26underestimate the power of these small
1:20:28micro changes. And you talk a lot in
1:20:30your work about the micro changes.
1:20:32>> It's all that matters.
1:20:33>> And it could mean speaking up at work.
1:20:35It could mean going to church this
1:20:36weekend. It could mean volunteering in
1:20:39your community. It could mean picking up
1:20:41a book and getting back into reading
1:20:43fiction instead of scrolling on social
1:20:45media.
1:20:46>> Find the thing that connects you back to
1:20:48who you believe you are right now.
1:20:50>> And it doesn't have to be these massive
1:20:53life-changing things. In fact, it rarely
1:20:55ever requires that.
1:20:57>> Again, if you can literally transform a
1:21:01tyrannical society into a free society
1:21:03on the back of authenticity,
1:21:06like you can change your life. What is
1:21:10one thing that you could challenge us to
1:21:13do based on all the research, the power
1:21:15of authenticity
1:21:17to do this week? What would it be?
1:21:21>> This is going to sound basic, but it's
1:21:22do something. Um,
1:21:26you've got to get that action bias.
1:21:28>> Again, listen to Vosvive. It doesn't
1:21:30have to be huge, but find those places
1:21:32where you know you've been going along.
1:21:35You know, you really didn't agree. could
1:21:37be eating like what are some of the
1:21:38simple places where
1:21:39>> people can literally like go back to the
1:21:41very beginning.
1:21:42>> No, I'm not actually drinking tonight. Y
1:21:44>> you know what I mean? Little things. Um,
1:21:47hey, are we sure we want to go to that
1:21:48restaurant? Y
1:21:50>> um just stuff that you like I'm talking
1:21:52about your preferences. They don't have
1:21:53to be these deep profound like let's
1:21:56have a political conversation about it
1:21:58could but just you know first of all you
1:22:00know it when you're not being authentic
1:22:03like so I don't have to tell you.
1:22:04>> So true. It's true. like it doesn't it
1:22:06just and just say look I'm going to
1:22:07commit to one act of authenticity and I
1:22:11would say find the smallest meaningful
1:22:13act and I'll tell you remember that
1:22:16reward signal I talked about with
1:22:17conformity
1:22:18>> yes
1:22:18>> it also works with authenticity
1:22:20>> tell me more about that
1:22:21>> so when people who desire authenticity
1:22:24believe they are acting on it and we've
1:22:25seen this with with neuro imaging
1:22:27studies and everything they get the same
1:22:29reward response because your brain's
1:22:31like that do more of that and then you
1:22:34get the anticipation of it and one small
1:22:37act leads to another leads to another.
1:22:39It becomes habit. Then it becomes your
1:22:42identity. It becomes who you are and you
1:22:44won't even realize it happened. And then
1:22:47you'll become the person that everyone
1:22:50looks at and goes, I want to be like
1:22:52them. I want to be around them.
1:22:55>> You the energy you bring into a room.
1:22:58And and the thing is it's absolutely
1:22:59contagious. Not only because you create
1:23:01permission for other people to unbutton
1:23:03their table, right? But
1:23:05>> am I buttoned? I was like, can I button
1:23:07them back up?
1:23:08>> Because because
1:23:10we know this from the research that
1:23:12happiness itself is contagious.
1:23:14>> When the people around you within your
1:23:17network increase their happiness, you
1:23:19get about a 25% boost for free.
1:23:22>> Wow.
1:23:22>> Become that person. And if if if you
1:23:25worry too much about the end goal, it
1:23:27feels insurmountable. I remember
1:23:28thinking when I was like minimum wage,
1:23:32welfare, two kids, no high school
1:23:36diploma, if I tried to think about what
1:23:38life might be like in the long for it
1:23:40just seems insurmountable.
1:23:43All I thought was what's the next step
1:23:44that I can take?
1:23:47And then you take another step. And for
1:23:49me, and I don't mean this to sound
1:23:51arrogant,
1:23:53it took seven years from when I was
1:23:56failed out of high school to when I got
1:23:58into Harvard for my doctorate and
1:24:00another seven years before I was a
1:24:02professor.
1:24:03Like that time is going to go past no
1:24:06matter what you do. And when you think
1:24:08about those sort of time horizons, you
1:24:10know, five years is going to go by
1:24:13whether you like it or not.
1:24:16And all the fear you feel, first of all,
1:24:19I'll say most of it is completely
1:24:20unfounded. Now you know why. It's a
1:24:22prison in our own minds. We're at war
1:24:24with ourselves.
1:24:27But whatever fear you feel, remember,
1:24:31you know something's wrong right now.
1:24:34Like the status quo in your own life is
1:24:36not good enough. You know that you
1:24:39deserve better than that. That time's
1:24:41going to pass. Just start the small
1:24:44acts. Get on that path of authenticity
1:24:47and I promise you you are you won't even
1:24:50recognize yourself.
1:24:52>> Todd Rose, what are your parting words?
1:24:55>> It's easy for individuals
1:24:58just living their life trying to make
1:25:00ends meet dayto-day. You barely have
1:25:02enough time to do anything for yourself.
1:25:05The problems in our society seem so big,
1:25:08so insurmountable
1:25:10that there's a like an apathy that sets
1:25:13in
1:25:14>> because what could I possibly do?
1:25:16>> It's also exhausting.
1:25:17>> It is exhausting because it's exhausting
1:25:20in part because we don't know what to
1:25:21do. We feel like nothing we could do
1:25:24would ever matter and we feel helpless.
1:25:29It's not true. Like at my core, I
1:25:33believe it, but I also have the data to
1:25:34back it up. You matter more than you
1:25:37could possibly know. That's true in
1:25:40general, but it is particularly true
1:25:42when the problems of our society are
1:25:44related to collective illusions.
1:25:47>> You have a role to play. Um, do it for
1:25:51yourself. Your life will be immeasurably
1:25:54better. You will like you and I both
1:25:56know I I pinch myself. I'm like, I
1:25:59cannot believe I get to live this life.
1:26:01>> Same. And I also can't believe how long
1:26:03I spent it trying to fit in and how
1:26:05exhausting and fatiguing it was. How
1:26:07long I gaslit myself saying there's
1:26:09nothing I can do and all the noise is
1:26:11correct when I deeply fundamentalally
1:26:14believe that's not true. That we all
1:26:16kind of are want the same things. And
1:26:19then when you realize, wait a minute, if
1:26:21I'm just authentically myself, the
1:26:24illusion disappears.
1:26:25>> Do it for yourself just for that.
1:26:27but do it for us.
1:26:29>> Todd, I am so grateful. I am grateful
1:26:33that you're doing this work. I am so
1:26:36grateful that you are able to break it
1:26:39down for all of us. And so I just want
1:26:42to thank you for the proof and the
1:26:44permission to believe in the better
1:26:47nature in all of us. And I'm also
1:26:50grateful that just allowing yourself to
1:26:54be yourself and finding the courage to
1:26:56start to point your life back toward the
1:26:58things that you know make you feel like
1:26:59you is actually the answer to all the
1:27:01big problems. Yeah.
1:27:02>> So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And
1:27:03I also want to thank you. Thank you for
1:27:06being here. Thank you for really
1:27:08listening or watching something that
1:27:10will help you be more authentic. And
1:27:12thank you for sharing this more than any
1:27:15other episode. We do have the power to
1:27:18change things. Do not buy into the lies.
1:27:20I really want you to live in the truth
1:27:22and I love you for being here and I do
1:27:25believe in your ability to create a
1:27:27better life. And today after our
1:27:29conversation and everything I learned, I
1:27:31believe in your ability and my ability
1:27:34to create a better world. All righty.
1:27:36I'll see you in the very next episode.
1:27:38I'll welcome you in the moment you hit
1:27:39play. And thank you for being here with
1:27:41me on YouTube and watching all the way
1:27:43to the end. And thank you for sharing
1:27:45this episode with the people in your
1:27:47life that you care about. All right, I
1:27:49know you want to watch another video. I
1:27:51would go to this one next. And I'll be
1:27:52there to welcome you in the moment you
1:27:53hit play.

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