YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → "They DESERVED IT": FULL 6 HOUR INTERROGATION OF SERIAL KILLER ISRAEL KEYES

"They DESERVED IT": FULL 6 HOUR INTERROGATION OF SERIAL KILLER ISRAEL KEYES — Transcript

by Dark Crimes Watch · 52,677 words · 7,651 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:24didn't sleep much last
0:26night no not that these are good work
0:30that
0:31apparently I had muscles sore this
0:33morning I didn't even know I had
0:36really muscles that's a good thing you
0:38didn't get a full on just reminds me
0:41like those uh late night infomercials
0:43used to sell those machines that shock
0:45your abs and stuff
0:47oh it's like that one you one you bought
0:50one of them no Kimberly okay but I tried
0:53it once
0:55just you get ripped from it no
1:01so uh you weren't too taken with the
1:04machine basically no oh the ab yeah
1:08shocker things those things are like
1:10freaking fingernails on
1:14CH i' rather
1:18do okay well Israel we're run through
1:21the same stuff that we do every time uh
1:23you know running a tapee here just so we
1:25make sure we get all the facts straight
1:27stuff all right um and uh uh I just want
1:30to confirm we didn't interrupt a meeting
1:32with your attorney when we picked you up
1:34here court today right or the jail today
1:36sorry no okay um and you're here
1:40voluntarily right yes okay um you
1:43understand that we can't talk about
1:44anything to do with the case involving
1:46uh Samantha kig uh if you do start
1:49talking about that stuff then we'll have
1:50to stop the interview we'll have to take
1:52you back to the jail you understand that
1:54yes okay um going to run through your uh
1:57Miranda rights here I know we've been
2:00before but we're going to run through
2:01them one more time before we ask any
2:03questions you must understand your
2:04rights you have the right to remain
2:06silent anything you say can be used
2:08against you in court uh you have the
2:10right to talk to a lawyer for advice
2:11before we ask you questions um you have
2:14the right to have a lawyer with you
2:15during questioning if you cannot afford
2:17a lawyer everyone will be appointed for
2:19you before any questioning if you wish
2:22if you decide to answer questions now
2:23without a lawyer present you have the
2:25right to stop answering at any time um
2:28do you understand these right as
2:30yes and with that explanation in mind
2:33are you to wave your rights and speak
2:34with us
2:36yes
2:37um one other thing you've got uh standby
2:41Council appointed in uh in this
2:42particular matter I believe it's rich
2:44cner and it may also be jacn Walsh I'm
2:48not 100% sure of that but uh be that as
2:50it may do you have do you want either of
2:52those attorneys present today
2:54no um are you on any medications or any
2:58other sub substance that we should know
3:01no and are you having any difficulty
3:04understanding where you're at or what's
3:05going on no okay I didn't think so all
3:08right now that we're done with that I
3:09apologize um uh we're going jump here
3:13and the first thing I got to tell you
3:15Israel we talked about a little bit
3:17earlier that that stunt yesterday in the
3:20courtroom did not go over well um so
3:24well with a lot of folks not the least
3:26of which were the uh were the
3:27prosecutors that was the delay actually
3:29getting in here is we knew you had some
3:31legal questions and so we reached out
3:34for him to say hey uh Israel says he's
3:37got some questions are you guys
3:38available to speak to them and um I I
3:41couldn't even get one one of them was in
3:43court and the other one said you know
3:45basically what the [ __ ] after yesterday
3:48so uh they they didn't think that was
3:50too funny um so and why are they afraid
3:54I'd actually get
3:56away that wouldn't be embarrassing for
3:58that gu
4:00no it's uh I don't think that they were
4:02looking at it from that perspective you
4:04know lawyers just don't like excitement
4:06that's all it is well it's more of a
4:08it's more of a understanding that they
4:10thought we were kind of working towards
4:13the a goal and they're you know they're
4:15working on trying to get keeping Vermont
4:17on board and doing everything I would
4:19have sent them an anonymous
4:20letter yeah and so they're are kind of
4:25wondering where we're at with that where
4:26we at with the what's changed since
4:30yesterday
4:32uh more handcuffs I don't know
4:36yeah what change for you
4:39though
4:42nothing possibly additional
4:46[Laughter]
4:51charges well I I don't understand why
4:54why I it surprises me that they would
4:56take that person all it really doesn't
4:58have anything to do with them
5:00well they didn't they I didn't interpret
5:02it as though they took it personally
5:04they're very concerned and uh and very
5:06frustrated because I think in their mind
5:09we had a business relationship set up
5:11here and uh they worked very hard to
5:14kind of lay out uh their position and
5:16the things that they thought that they
5:18could potentially do that that would be
5:20in your interest based on the
5:21information you've provided and uh so
5:24they felt like we had a business
5:25relationship and uh they felt like the
5:28actions that you took yesterday they
5:30really kind of threw that out the window
5:32and I got to I got to be honest kind of
5:36look that way from our perspective too
5:39oh I disagree I mean honestly um if and
5:42I know we can't go too far back into
5:45some of the original interviews
5:47interviews that I had with them but um
5:51by their own words yesterday and their
5:53opening statement to the judge in court
5:56um you know I feel like I they have not
5:59been uh honest with me about uh what my
6:04bottom line has been throughout all this
6:06and that's what I wanted to talk to them
6:08about so I'm not going to take it out on
6:09you guys but I do have some serious
6:11issues right now there's uh some sort of
6:15obvious Communication
6:18Breakdown over the entirety of this
6:22whole situation and
6:26um and it's easy to sit there and say on
6:29the recording we're not here to talk
6:30about the K case but the fact of the
6:32matter is is that they are the same
6:34people that I talked to about that
6:35originally so you understand my position
6:38on that so I understand I'm I'm not
6:40allowed to talk to that and I respected
6:43their wishes about not talking to that
6:45to them about that either without my
6:47attorney present but um I have some
6:49serious frustrations right now regarding
6:53U you know matters related to that so
6:55that's um that's uh
6:59as far as that's
7:01concerned what and I don't think it's
7:04something that can't be worked out I've
7:06been trying to work it out for my end
7:08but apparently there's only so much I
7:10can do so um so that's what I wanted to
7:13speak to them about not in a matter of
7:16any specifics regarding any other case
7:19just uh like General topics you know
7:22like I say it's the topics that were
7:24discussed in open court yesterday so
7:26it's um
7:30yeah it's that's a frustration to me
7:32right now that they won't talk to me
7:34about those topics but it's okay to talk
7:36about it in open court that's you know
7:38I'm I'm not buying that so that's okay
7:42well there are different rules for what
7:45can be done in open court because your
7:47attorneys are present and Judes present
7:50and when we're having discussions over
7:51here we've got to adhere to a different
7:53set of rules right because you have me
7:56right sequestered away from right I
7:58understand that
8:00um and I've I've been working on that as
8:04much as I can from my end but um you
8:06know there really is just like a couple
8:08very simple questions I have to ask them
8:10that and and I need to get a straight
8:13answer from somebody before I can move
8:16forward on it because I'm not getting a
8:17straight answer on my end so okay so you
8:20think they might be able to provide you
8:22listen yes I I General general questions
8:25about right not not even questions
8:27related to the case just you know and
8:31are you talking about the the hearing
8:33yesterday afternoon or the hearing
8:34yesterday
8:35morning yes um well let's see you you
8:40had two it let's
8:44see hearing um no it was pretty much
8:49strictly related to uh the afternoon
8:53hearing how about if you uh if you if
8:56you can give me a general question we
8:58might be able to make a phone call and
9:00see if they can um well
9:03okay my position has been and I'm me no
9:08secret about
9:10this
9:11um my position has been that I want to
9:15talk to them about uh the coing case and
9:18find out you know where we stand with
9:21that but you know you know we can't do
9:22that and they can't do that right now
9:24without right no I I understand that but
9:26he's we don't want to talk about the
9:28impression that I I spoke to him uh
9:31before and he gave me the impression
9:34that he was open to that but only if my
9:36attorneys were present and I said okay
9:39fine I'll talk to him we'll set it up
9:43that was a month ago so there's
9:46something there's communication that's
9:48all I can say about it because they're
9:50not here you know to State their case
9:52their side of the story but I do know
9:54what they've been telling me and so if
9:57he and and you know he made it clear
9:59that
10:00at least at that time that um he was
10:02open to that suggestion that I had and
10:07um and I'm assured that
10:12uh see I don't yeah I guess it just
10:15comes down to I don't know who to
10:16believe right now this there's something
10:18something is there's a hitch in the
10:20communication
10:22somewhere and it and it's all and
10:24honestly I wasn't that concerned about
10:26it until yesterday and I heard some of
10:28the things that were said in court and
10:30you know some of the things that were
10:31said by the by the theu I think it was R
10:37speak but yeah yeah he was from what he
10:40said I was not at all happy with the and
10:43actually I had
10:45heard
10:47um I had heard a day or two before that
10:50hearing that that was what was going on
10:53and I had no idea and then to hear it
10:54confirmed in court like that would kind
10:56of just you know was was frustrating
10:59so you know um and I and honestly I I'm
11:04not going
11:06to get an all in a tizzy about it until
11:09we can at least talk about it and find
11:11out what is going on it's I it's not
11:14that I'm not willing to accept people's
11:16explanations for why things for what's
11:20going on it's just that no one's giving
11:22me an
11:25explanation um I guess my thought on
11:28that is we've we've tried to do that and
11:31we'll continue to try to do that but
11:33just keep in mind that all of us are you
11:36know we're Bound by the rules that set
11:38down for us and in some cases uh the
11:42rules will be more restrictive than
11:43usual and that's kind of what's going on
11:46to be perfectly honest you know because
11:47of it high profile all that well yeah
11:50there's that and then you know sometimes
11:52there's just additional rules that we
11:53have to live by and like the standby
11:55counsel thing frankly is is kind of
11:57unusual we don't run into that very
11:58often right um and there are some other
12:00things I'm not going to get into it cuz
12:02it's kind of legal stuff and that's not
12:04really my strong suit but just keep in
12:07mind that the attorneys are juggling
12:09more things than they normally would
12:11right and there are things I think that
12:13we would all like to be able to talk
12:15with you about but we just haven't had
12:17that opportunity yet right and that's my
12:20concern I I and and uh are these
12:23questions that you have for the
12:25attorneys questions under the conditions
12:28that you know we have to speak about are
12:30these questions that they're going to be
12:31able to answer or are they just going to
12:33tell you we can't talk to you about that
12:34because it's not really there are
12:35questions they're probably not going to
12:37want to answer unless um unless I have
12:41okay so it's it's not something that
12:43they can even answer in this environment
12:45right now not in not right here right
12:47now um but I do I would like
12:50reconfirmation
12:52on the previous statement that feldis
12:56had told me I mean and he he gave me
12:58that statement in an interview that was
13:00you know with just me and I don't know
13:02if he was saying it as an official
13:05response or if he was just saying it to
13:07Plate me but he did say he was willing
13:11to do that to have a meeting with me and
13:14whoever you know whatever Council was
13:16required so that we could discuss things
13:18openly and it hasn't happened well and
13:22and you think that not and you think
13:24we're this side stalling that I don't
13:26know who stall somebody's stalling it
13:28that's all I can say for sure sure um
13:30and it's not
13:31me one thing that one thing we can is uh
13:35neither Kevin nor Frank are the kind of
13:37guys that are going to tell you
13:38something just to shine you on so I
13:40haven't got that impression no they're
13:42they're not and so if they've told you
13:44something it is something that they
13:45believe is can be done and uh I don't
13:49always understand all the reasons why
13:51things work exactly the way they do in
13:53the system but they're not going to
13:55[ __ ] you uh it's just not right I I
13:58mean I I I agree with you and I believe
14:01you up to a point I mean I'm not it's
14:03not like I'm here expecting special
14:05treatment I have
14:07no I have no doubts about what my part
14:11is in all this I'm just saying that um
14:13yeah from what I've seen and from what
14:15my dealings are with them so far I'm
14:17more inclined to put my faith in the
14:21things I've heard from them than from
14:24certain other people so you know that
14:26they have gone through what they're
14:29trying to work out and what I think they
14:30have worked out with Vermont is unheard
14:32of too I think they right well I mean
14:34and yeah we were prepared to come and
14:36talk to you about that today and I just
14:37that lawyers are just you know they're
14:40just not sure where we stand now because
14:42of Yes Man and just they want some
14:43assurance that that we're still kind of
14:45going well that is a good point I hadn't
14:47even thought of it in that light that
14:50now that it's on the news people there
14:52are going to read it too so well that's
14:54the difficulty that they're having now
14:55they've been on conference calls talking
14:57to them saying I thought this guy is you
14:59know I thought we were he's on board and
15:02so they're that frankly that's why we're
15:04we went through this trouble today to
15:06meet with you today just kind of so we
15:08could give them a feel for for how
15:10things are and where where we where we
15:12stand and what we can tell them where we
15:13stand and this was just a you know yeah
15:17well I mean I know it's going to be hard
15:20for anybody to AC accept but especially
15:23them I would imagine that that didn't
15:26really have anything to do with our
15:27Arrangement and but perspective yeah so
15:30okay but I mean I don't think it's
15:31something that they can't work past they
15:33they've worked through some pretty
15:34Miracle stuff right now so I think this
15:36is something they can probably they just
15:38they want some assurance that uh we
15:40we're going to be able to go back down
15:41that same road that we were on and we
15:44made a major
15:45turn I don't imagine this will stay
15:48strictly between you and me and people
15:50in this room but you I believe the
15:53people in this room know me well enough
15:55now to know that um
16:03that when I
16:05say what happened yesterday has nothing
16:08to do with our Arrangement and like I
16:10say it's not some part of some grand
16:12scheme
16:13um I already know how this all ends for
16:17me so I mean it's good I think that we
16:20we can hear that from you that's just
16:22yeah that was an opportunity that that
16:24happened there and right that's what it
16:28was some of the things that they're
16:30concerned about and that they're getting
16:32questioned about by like Vermont for
16:34example uh because like Jeff said we
16:37know that they had a long conference
16:38call with Vermont today trying to
16:40explain what happened and answer
16:42questions of you know Vermont we saw a
16:44draft version of the letter and uh it
16:47was everything you asked for I mean it
16:50truly was and uh I think they're trying
16:54to answer some pretty tough questions
16:56from Vermont right now about basically
16:59what the
17:00[ __ ] right but I mean still even still
17:03from their perspective
17:07um I they've I mean come on let's face
17:11it yeah what happened yesterday oh I'm a
17:13bad guy I tried to escape but um let's
17:17be honest nobody really thought I was a
17:19good guy before that
17:22so it's not like being escaping suddenly
17:26makes me untrustworthy I was kind of UN
17:28trustworthy before that
17:34so at least you have the perspective of
17:37you're not have an unrealistic
17:39perspective of yeah I'm not
17:43um and
17:46obviously I
17:48think you probably especially know that
17:52I'm not going to get another opportunity
17:54like that at least not within my
17:57lifetime so I mean I don't know I don't
18:00know what to tell him you know all I can
18:02say
18:04is that um I mean nothing's changed as
18:09far
18:09as um my day-to- day and my reality you
18:14know it's still still the same you still
18:16Envision a way where we can get to meet
18:19meet both of our goals where we can get
18:21what we want out of this I I think so
18:23but um like I say after after yesterday
18:26I had some frustrations my own so
18:30uh so that was kind of the Catalyst that
18:34you know so what you're saying is there
18:37there's a couple things you need cleared
18:38up from them I do yeah and I need I mean
18:41and honestly like we've talked about
18:42before like all this other stuff this
18:45like little bargaining chips whatever
18:47you want to call it you know
18:49that's that is
18:51all one thing but but you know everybody
18:55knows what uh my bottom line concern is
18:59and all this that I you know that I
19:01wanted this all wrapped up as quickly as
19:03possible and uh and like I say it was in
19:06open court yesterday and it's obviously
19:08not happening that way so uh so that's
19:11you know and I'm and I'm it's not that
19:14like I say it's not that I'm uh pointing
19:16the finger placing blame on anyone I
19:18haven't even had an explanation of why
19:21things are the way they are so how do I
19:23know whose fault it is or if it's
19:24anyone's fault I don't even know that
19:27so but um but that doesn't mean it
19:29doesn't didn't you know kind
19:32of you know because I I remember I I
19:35remember all the interviews we've had I
19:37remember what was said since day one and
19:41and my perspective hasn't changed any of
19:43that yeah granted we've talked about a
19:45lot more things since then but those are
19:47all things that I already had in my head
19:50before just because they're out on the
19:52table now that doesn't change anything
19:54of what I wanted originally what we
19:56talking about originally so it's all
19:59still the same issue
20:01so
20:02um anyway
20:07that's it's all
20:10good so all that being
20:12said where can we go for
20:17here um I honestly I don't know I don't
20:20know that uh we can go anywhere until I
20:25get some straight answers on you know
20:28what I was just talking about because uh
20:31because really that that is that has
20:34been my my bottom line all all along and
20:37U and you know I won't be a bit I think
20:40I know what's going on but I need
20:43confirmation um before I decide to take
20:47the next step or steps whatever it takes
20:49to and I don't know specifically what
20:51you're talking about but I mean it's
20:52very possible that that that it's
20:55something whatever your questions are
20:57that they they may not be able to answer
20:59him
21:01for because right for other reasons yeah
21:04no I understand that I mean I I know
21:07there's regardless of how unusual the
21:09situation is that doesn't mean we can
21:10make it even more
21:12unusual I know they still have
21:15guidelines and rules they have to follow
21:17you know I'm not expecting all the
21:19answers they just nobody just want
21:20nobody wants to cross a line that we've
21:22been told by a judge can't be crossed
21:25right they they can't do that nobody can
21:27so
21:30yeah no I yeah I know I mean all I can
21:32tell you is you're going to have to use
21:33your judgment on the information that
21:37you're getting
21:38and see if you can de yeah that's what
21:41I'm trying to do but
21:48um but it's
21:50uh it's not an easy thing when you get
21:53everything through a middleman as it
21:56were so um
22:01like I say I don't know who to put the
22:03blame on right now I'm pretty sure I
22:04know but you know it's I I was trying
22:09really hard to work with everybody on
22:11this keep everybody happy but as we all
22:14know that doesn't always happen
22:17so and I don't you know I don't want
22:19this to turn into any more my whole
22:23concern
22:25with in all of this and I know what's
22:27going to happen if I have to do it I
22:29will but you know if I if I have to take
22:31the next step and
22:33just freaking you know it's going to
22:35turn into even more of a three- reading
22:37circus and more nobody wants right and
22:39nobody wants that and I don't think they
22:41want that so I that's why I thought it
22:43was in everyone's best interest that you
22:44know that we could all have a meeting
22:47you know like at all parties involved
22:50could once again sit down and have a
22:52meeting just like in the beginning like
22:54when there was no question about the
22:55legality or whether this was proper
22:58improper you know what it was all there
23:00was nothing weird or unusual about that
23:02it was a standard interview and there
23:04was no objections or court orders or
23:09paperwork or petitions you know all this
23:11stuff that's happened since then it
23:12seems like it's done nothing it hasn't
23:14changed anything I still come over here
23:15and talk to you about stuff it hasn't
23:18changed any of that it hasn't changed my
23:19bottom line at all all it's done has
23:21made everything more complicated for
23:23everyone else involved and and and at
23:26the bottom of that I I don't get a
23:28straight answer on anything well I mean
23:30maybe I have been I hope I have been at
23:32least on a few things but definitely not
23:34on everything cuz I'm not there I don't
23:36know I don't see all the emails I don't
23:38see all the paperwork I don't see what's
23:41I don't hear what's
23:44said you know and it's not even that I
23:47want to hear and know all that stuff but
23:49I at least like to hear and know about
23:52the stuff that pertains to me and what
23:55my interest in it is
23:57so I think one of their uh concerns and
24:01and I think we all share it is that
24:05yesterday's actions regardless of why it
24:08took them uh are just going to create
24:10new hurdles for them from the standpoint
24:12of I mean literally they had something I
24:14really think it was just about agreed to
24:17uh may have even been agreed to and I
24:19just don't know it but like I said we
24:21saw a draft version of the letter that
24:23had I think everything that you
24:25discussed or wanted so they had achieved
24:28that um and then that St pester day has
24:33now endangered that uh in addition you
24:36know they're I think they're concerned
24:37now that maybe you have a different
24:39agenda than what you've told us because
24:41you were very specific you know I don't
24:43want any media attention uh this has
24:45created a bit of a frenzy I got to
24:48believe that your next court appearance
24:49is going to be
24:51standing there probably going to be a
24:53lot
24:54of Vigilantes guarding the door on that
24:57one
24:59I'm afraid there's going to be you know
25:00there's only there was only a couple
25:02meet people there yesterday I'm afraid
25:04tomorrow's going to have
25:06some a fair amount more media people
25:08unfortunately and then arguably one of
25:11the probably biggest potential hurdles
25:14now is you know we know you've indicated
25:16that you want to represent yourself on
25:18the things for which you're not charged
25:20um and this could be a huge hurdle now
25:25that didn't previously exist right I I
25:28get that yeah these are all things that
25:30all of us are thinking about but to be
25:31honest they're probably more focused on
25:33it than the rest of us and you may not
25:36have thought about those things but
25:38that's what they're mulling over right
25:40no I I get that I get what you're saying
25:41and honestly I really hadn't thought of
25:43it at all until you mentioned it I um I
25:47was I was concerned about the media
25:49coverage not really thinking about the
25:52effect it would have on the things we've
25:53discussed thinking more about you know
25:55that is my bottom line I didn't want a
25:56bunch of press and
25:58didn't want a bunch of drama and uh
26:01honestly I could have lived with the
26:02drama as long as I had been successful
26:05in escaping but since I didn't now I'm
26:07like man I really wish I hadn't created
26:09all this
26:12drama well um maybe we could uh maybe we
26:16could step out and I make a phone call
26:18over and just express some things you
26:20know just let them let them know some
26:22some concerns I don't know what the
26:23specific questions are it sounds like
26:25they're probably questions that wouldn't
26:26be able to be answered in this setting
26:29with the people that are here probably
26:31not but I mean you get the gist of what
26:32I'm saying anything and I you know I'm
26:35not I appreciate that you're all see in
26:38yeah I'm not I I have no problem with
26:40other people speaking for me you know
26:42the bottom line is I get to make all the
26:43decisions in the end I'm not going to be
26:46coerced or tricked into something that I
26:49don't know I'm getting into at this
26:51point so yeah I mean if you need to pass
26:53on in your own words whatever you think
26:55is going on go for it you know and and
26:59I'll the more communication we have on
27:02the issue the quicker can get resolved
27:04and I can get to the bottom of whatever
27:05is going on in my end so you
27:09know all right well let us step out for
27:12a minute and we'll be back all right
27:15[Music]
28:27for e
29:27for
29:57e e
32:27e
33:56e
34:26e
34:56for
35:26for
35:56for
36:26for
36:56for
37:26e
37:56e
38:26e e
39:18okay I appreciate your uh patience
39:21here um we talked to the uh attorneys
39:25and uh they're more than happy to sit
39:27down and talk with you just like Kevin
39:30yeah just like Kevin said before
39:32nothing's changed and we knew that but
39:35uh just reconfirm that and they had us
39:38what they're going to do is they're
39:39going to draft a letter that says we
39:42understand we the prosers understand
39:44that Israel Keys wants to sit down and
39:46talk about whatever issues things yeah
39:50um just leave it completely open uh with
39:52his attorneys with your attorneys right
39:54they're ready they're ready first thing
39:55tomorrow morning yep okay
39:57and they're going to uh they're going to
39:59send that to your attorneys and uh you
40:02should get a copy they're going to CC a
40:03copy to you so you know that it was sent
40:05all right good and well my attorney
40:08should show up tonight so that's good to
40:10know so you'll have a cop you'll have a
40:12copy of the letter you'll know exactly
40:14what it says and then it's up to you and
40:17your attorneys whether or not you follow
40:18through on it all right well that be
40:21much better
40:23than full shot in the dark yep they're
40:27not they're they're not doing this to
40:29blow you off uh here today it's just
40:31they're concerned that you're going to
40:32ask questions yeah I kind of told them
40:33what was going on and no that's fine I
40:35mean they want to cross a line they want
40:37to be no I agree I I don't want to talk
40:39about these things until we can talk
40:41about it I don't want to [ __ ] foot
40:43around or you know like talk around the
40:45edges of issues when we could just sure
40:48get it all out in the open and that's
40:50what I've been trying to do but you know
40:51apparently I was right in my assumption
40:53so that's good to know we'll get things
40:56moving now and especially you know if
40:58they get that letter to them and I then
41:01there's no doubt in my mind as to what's
41:03going on so okay and we'll we'll talk to
41:07them and they they'll shoot that out as
41:08soon as they can and who knows maybe
41:11you're uh you're uh you guys will get it
41:13leaving this evening yeah and then I
41:16don't know have you guys heard what time
41:17I have court tomorrow I think it's at
41:192:00 yeah I think it is all right all
41:21right good so there's plenty of time
41:24yeah all right well all right it's good
41:26to know
41:29I imagine all see so yeah some words
41:32well I think unless you have anything
41:33any other questions or anything else you
41:35want to uh not yeah not I don't know
41:37want a nap before tonight no I don't
41:42think all right well uh hang tight for
41:45us here for just a minut we'll be back
41:46and we'll probably be uh heading back
41:48all right all
41:56right for
42:09[Music]
43:26for e
44:27for
45:55for
46:25e
46:28[Music]
46:55for
47:25for
47:55e
48:25for for
48:28[Music]
49:04yeah yeah you don't mind
49:09okay m is even more process
49:17now one of the lawyers got you this
49:21lawers
49:48Isel how you doing all right hey Isel
49:50how you doing all right
49:58belis is uh back east in some meetings
50:01oh this week but uh we're figuring it be
50:04a good opportunity to update you on some
50:08of the developments in lont yeah okay
50:12I'm they going to go through that usual
50:13advis and I'll be first all right um as
50:17you know you know important things here
50:19so we got the uh uh step on I just want
50:23to confirm some of the stuff that we
50:24talked about at the jail um we didn't
50:26were off the meeting with your attorneys
50:28when we uh arrived there today did we no
50:31okay and it's your choice to come here
50:33as always and you're here voluntarily is
50:35that correct
50:37yes um and you understand we can't talk
50:39about anything that has to do with
50:40Samantha kig um if we do or if you start
50:43talking about that we'll have to stop
50:44the interview and transport you back to
50:46jail you understand that right yes um
50:49going to run through your Miranda Rights
50:51here real quick I know we've been
50:52through these quite a few times um we'll
50:54R through them again before we ask any
50:56questions you must understand your
50:58rights you have the right to remain
50:59silent anything you say can be used
51:02against you Court you have the right to
51:04talk to a lawyer for advice before we
51:06ask you questions you have the right to
51:08have a lawyer with you during question
51:10if you cannot afford a lawyer we will be
51:12appointed for you before any questioning
51:14if you wish uh if you decide to answer
51:16questions now without a lawyer present
51:18you have the right to stop answering
51:19questions at any time uh do you
51:22understand these rights as I'm
51:23explaining them to you yes okay with
51:26this been mind or you willing to wave
51:28your rights and speak with us today
51:30yes um as you know you've got a standby
51:33Council that's been appointed in this
51:34matter I believe it's rich cner and Jac
51:38Walsh do you have any desire to have
51:40either one of those either one of them
51:41present today no or any attorney
51:44whatsoever yeah no okay um are you have
51:50you been taking any medications or any
51:52other substances here in the last 24
51:54hours no are you having any difficulty
51:58understanding where you're at what's
51:59going on
52:01no all right I think that takes care of
52:05things so I just wanted to update you on
52:07where we were and where we are now with
52:10the discussion with the state
52:11authorities in Vermont you know we
52:13talked about trying to get that
52:15agreement with them right um and we do
52:18have a letter and I'll I'll show you the
52:20letter and give you some time to read it
52:22uh this dat letter is dated May 23rd
52:252012
52:27which was last
52:28Wednesday but since this point we've had
52:31some opportunity to discuss the contents
52:34the letter with Vermont U they still
52:36stand by everything in the letter and I
52:38can certainly share you uh share with
52:40your emails uh to that effect but let me
52:44let you read this
52:45thing OB does
52:55too
53:25for for
53:57okay so I think pretty good
54:09letter think I know
54:11that really yeah Thomas
54:15Square Thomas Thomas
54:18Donovan goes by
54:20DJ name really he
54:24was or something years and years
54:28really
54:29um so anyway here's my take on on the
54:32letter okay um I think it's it really
54:36accomplishes everything that you want
54:38and that we want um but as I told you
54:42like last week this isn't a legal
54:44document right it's not a uh you know
54:46it's not like it creates rights or you
54:48can enforce it or anything but what this
54:50is is a showing of good faith you know
54:54by by the Vermont authorities and
54:56basically saying hey we're on board um
54:59as long as Israel is cooperating with
55:02you you know we agree to do those things
55:05which effectively you know prevents them
55:07from running to the press and charging
55:11you under state law because after all
55:15they know this Letter's out here right
55:18so you know it would be political
55:20suicide if they try to do anything with
55:22your case without he Consulting with us
55:26for first so this is you know in in my
55:29mind a home run um I I remember last
55:33time you know you said something about
55:36showing it to your attorneys I mean do
55:38you want them to look at this or do you
55:40want to if you could forward them email
55:43them a copy of that um yeah that would
55:46be good I guess it seems that the letter
55:49is addressed to
55:51uh Kevin feldis so I mean that makes me
55:55feel better
55:57obviously it's addressed to it's
55:58addressed to me I can't really put any
56:00stock in it but you know if it's if it's
56:02a communication between the two of them
56:04then that's good and I also noticed that
56:07it's uh written by the state
56:10attorney um versus the FED federal
56:15attorney but you said that
56:18the oh wait now the state now so that's
56:22that's the prosecuting attorney for the
56:24for the county or the district the the
56:26State of the State of Vermont so so
56:28she's Federal no she's a state
56:30prosecutor oh okay so she is uh under
56:33the state's attorney here is Tom TJ
56:35Donovan and so this is the chittan
56:38County prosecutor's office they handle
56:40all state crimes committed in chman
56:42County which I understanding that's
56:44where Essex is right next to so you know
56:48in terms of the federal prosecutors you
56:50know they're within department of
56:52justice anyway so you know we're on the
56:55same team so to speak as them right it
56:58was just a matter of the state and
57:00locals and you know I've been emailing
57:03back and forth with these people I can
57:05share that with you some of it but I
57:08just want to make clear I mean you
57:09certainly I can I can email that to your
57:12standby councel no problem um are you
57:15okay talking about this letter um today
57:19without them present yeah yeah I don't
57:21mind talking about it I just uh wanted
57:24to have them review it sure to see what
57:26get their take on it I wasn't even going
57:28to ask them for their advice just see
57:30what they had to say about it it's up to
57:32you the whether or not advice from it
57:35but you know like I said this isn't like
57:37a legally binding contract I it's going
57:39to intend it is it's basically you know
57:41just a document that just put some of
57:44the facts on the table it puts the facts
57:46and their intentions on the table which
57:48is really what uh it was a huge burden
57:52that came off of us last week when we
57:53got this um obviously you know cuz we've
57:56been telling them you didn't want
57:57publicity you wanted to kind of keep low
57:59profile um you know the incident last
58:02Wednesday kind of complicated things for
58:03us because then we you know they were
58:05basically wondering well do no publicity
58:07or sounds like he does so that was their
58:10perspective on things so I spent some
58:12time um chatting with Mary Morrison um
58:16and she's the prosecutor here and you
58:18know she copies the se6 police chief and
58:20the other detective on the case too on
58:22The Courier case um but basically you
58:26know their their request and you know
58:28the email is you know they they
58:29certainly may have other questions about
58:32The Courier case Okay so they were
58:34wondering hey you know would it be okay
58:36to conference them in uh I said we could
58:39talk about that at a conference call
58:41tomorrow to what kind of questions they
58:43had for you body but basically this
58:48after the incident last Wednesday we
58:50were able to kind of go talk to them
58:51again and explain you know I listen to
58:54your conversation with Jeff and Steve on
58:57Thursday it seems clear that you're
58:58still on board with this sort of
59:01agreement and I told that to them and
59:03say look this was just a sort of a prime
59:06of opportunity the Escape thing and was
59:08serious about uh about cooperating so I
59:11confirmed that to them and they
59:12confirmed
59:13today that
59:15um you know they are uh you know they're
59:19still on board you want to see that Happ
59:21to show want uh sure
59:28that leaves out the bottom which is my
59:30sort of long longwinded explanation of
59:32what happened but starts at the bottom
59:35right yeah well that's the bottom
59:36question to her and she basically says
59:39in there do you need me to send another
59:41letter like an updated date on the
59:43letter uhhuh I said you know I think
59:46this email is sufficient
59:59all right well s like we're progress I
1:00:03think so I I think this is a a great
1:00:06amount of
1:00:07progress where we are and I think you
1:00:09know it's going to help us move the ball
1:00:11forward um you just sort of reiterate
1:00:14they basically have said and
1:00:16agreed
1:00:17that um they know it's important to you
1:00:20to sort of avoid media tension to um you
1:00:24don't want law enforcement identify you
1:00:26in connection with The Courier matter
1:00:28that they're prepared to
1:00:30do um and they're prepared to continue
1:00:32cooperating and in exchange you're
1:00:34agreeing to be truthful about other
1:00:37crimes and bodies and in here they
1:00:40specifically mention the name of the
1:00:43victim in New York right they want to
1:00:45know yeah about that so as it says I'm
1:00:49of close to them and I have a conference
1:00:51call tomorrow with them and I'd like to
1:00:53be able to tell them that you're
1:00:56cooperate provided that information I do
1:00:58want to continue to cooperate um I'm
1:01:00having some issues as far as
1:01:08uh this is somewhat of an unrealistic
1:01:11expectation on my part but I was
1:01:13thinking there might be a way to
1:01:16disclose all this information to you and
1:01:19to the
1:01:21FBI and
1:01:24to some way Ensure sure somehow ensure
1:01:27that uh we could work out some sort of
1:01:29agreement that you know I give you all
1:01:31the answers on these cases and and uh
1:01:35you know families get closure you find
1:01:39as
1:01:40many as many of them as possible and
1:01:44um and in return for that you
1:01:48know I you know I don't plan on being
1:01:50around a whole lot longer but a really
1:01:52big concern to me is um you know my
1:01:56kid's going to be around I don't want
1:01:58her to like type my name in the computer
1:02:00and have it pop up like you
1:02:03know I you know I already know stuff's
1:02:05going to come up I know that but
1:02:10um I just uh Trying to minimize that at
1:02:15this point I guess is what I was hoping
1:02:17to do and um apparently it's going to be
1:02:20really difficult uh to get that
1:02:22Assurance so I'm trying to you know
1:02:26figure out a way we can still do
1:02:35that I think there is you know I have a
1:02:38few ideas on on
1:02:40how work it out
1:02:44but what are your ideas well I I'm not
1:02:49sure if they're feasible yet i' I've
1:02:53been talking to different people about
1:02:55it
1:02:59from what can happen from a I guess a
1:03:01legal perspective you know it's one
1:03:03thing
1:03:04to to make assurances you know you know
1:03:08that's that's great I mean if we get
1:03:10some of the stuff on the table for now
1:03:11it helps us deal with the problems for
1:03:13right now but um you know down the road
1:03:16that's what I'm concerned about I'm not
1:03:18going to be around you know which is
1:03:20fine but that doesn't uh
1:03:26doesn't change the fact that you know
1:03:28like just because just because I'm not
1:03:31connected with it right away you know
1:03:33could happen later and uh so I'm trying
1:03:36to I guess maybe cover myself that way
1:03:39as much as possible and still get you
1:03:42what you need yeah I mean I think um you
1:03:46know sort of the plan I drafted up I
1:03:48mean this is sort of a good starting
1:03:50point you're right I mean no one can
1:03:52guarantee you that you're never going to
1:03:53be connected to some of the these things
1:03:57um what we can do to respond to some of
1:04:00this is create this sort of Snowball
1:04:02Effect of the jurisdiction right and we
1:04:04started with Vermont I mean we know even
1:04:07though we gave Vermont the information
1:04:09up front we know it's it's possible
1:04:13right because we just did it and it will
1:04:15be even we're in a better position in
1:04:17other
1:04:18jurisdictions when we go to them and say
1:04:20all right look we've got remod down
1:04:22we've got a body in New York um um you
1:04:26get on board and we're not going to play
1:04:28with you um right it creates this
1:04:32Snowball Effect with momentum no one's
1:04:34going to try to get in the way of it so
1:04:36I mean you know sort of the plan we sort
1:04:38of lined out for you my hope that that's
1:04:41something we can use as a model we used
1:04:43Vermont as a model and now it's it's
1:04:45certainly it's working we're taking a
1:04:47big step in Vermont saying all right you
1:04:49know what you guys obviously it's it's
1:04:51keys to solving at least the Courier's
1:04:54crime and we're going to refer to Alaska
1:04:58and we're going to give you what you
1:05:00need but in return we're not going to
1:05:03we're not going to say anything we're
1:05:04going to keep things on the radar we're
1:05:06not going to link it publicly we're not
1:05:08going to make it splash the media which
1:05:09I think
1:05:11is as far as law enforcement guarantees
1:05:14or insurances it's as good as it gets
1:05:17right and I think um you we can do this
1:05:20we can continue on doing this because I
1:05:23mean we've been doing a good job of
1:05:24Vermont Vermont's been doing a great job
1:05:27and I think um you know they're aware of
1:05:28New York now too and that's quite
1:05:30frankly what got them over the line
1:05:33right remember we talking you like give
1:05:35give us something to take to Vermont
1:05:37right and when we got New York we went
1:05:40to Vermont and said you know because of
1:05:41you're collaberation we got New York and
1:05:44then that immediately generated this
1:05:46letter of intent so but in order to kind
1:05:50of keep I think the mobs on board it
1:05:53certainly would be nice to kind of say
1:05:55all right you know based upon your
1:05:56letter we also got ask the name the name
1:06:00of a a victim the location of the body
1:06:04and you know we already have their
1:06:05Assurance about The Courier matter you
1:06:06don't have to worry about what's
1:06:08happening with that because that's all
1:06:10tied up in this and we can do the same
1:06:12thing with the New York right where are
1:06:14they at with the I did they find the
1:06:16bodies yet or football
1:06:20field they're making they're making
1:06:22progress but it's just a it's it could
1:06:25still be make it a couple weeks or
1:06:27something yeah it definitely they not
1:06:28going to stop this is you know tenacious
1:06:31one of the best analogies I've heard for
1:06:33it is it's more like an archaeological
1:06:35day uh just going through and kind of
1:06:38tossing things until you find what you
1:06:41think
1:06:42you're it's a lot of
1:06:45trouble I almost feel
1:06:49guilty costing the taxpayers a lot of
1:06:52money
1:06:53find just kept my mouth shut
1:06:57but that's how committed that you know
1:06:58the FBI I understand they you know well
1:07:01it sounds like they've got it theyve got
1:07:03the area they just got to find it now
1:07:06they they're very confident of that and
1:07:07they've been finding things that are in
1:07:08the right time frame and are you know
1:07:11from uh residences and businesses in
1:07:13that immediate area so they're confident
1:07:15they're in the right area but as you can
1:07:18imagine it's something that they're
1:07:20trying to do precisely accurately um and
1:07:24there hasn't been
1:07:26I haven't honestly haven't had access to
1:07:28any news stories related to that I saw
1:07:30the one that you showed me started I'm
1:07:33Google I Google it almost every day
1:07:35there's nothing they hav kind Dead story
1:07:38at
1:07:39this so I me I think whatever to is you
1:07:42you're you're you're wanting to take
1:07:44responsibility your plan is to take
1:07:46responsibility if you can figure out how
1:07:48to do this without getting the
1:07:49recognition which is kind of what's
1:07:51going on Vermont right my concern the
1:07:54problem is nowadays uh the more stuff my
1:07:57name is attached to the more likely it
1:08:00is that somebody's going to try to do
1:08:03some kind of stupid freaking TV special
1:08:05or you know you know how it is nowadays
1:08:08like with all this true crime [ __ ]
1:08:10that people are obsessed with and that's
1:08:12the I'm not even so concerned at this
1:08:14point about uh you know cuz so far I
1:08:17feel like we have been able to work
1:08:19within the guidelines of what we both
1:08:21said we would uh but I'm I'm yeah I am
1:08:24concerned about about that about someone
1:08:27connecting the dots on this and
1:08:30um I I don't know how like the right
1:08:34there I know there's certain privacy
1:08:35laws but I know that you know for the
1:08:37most case they're not going to apply to
1:08:39me and uh so I know that um at some
1:08:42point it's pretty likely that if some of
1:08:44them tried hard enough they could you
1:08:47know not so much because this is we got
1:08:50a couple of things uh sort of working in
1:08:53our favor on this one it's an ongoing
1:08:55investigation right and so that right
1:08:57there is going to limit the amount of
1:08:59information that's going to be released
1:09:01um and two it's an ongoing federal
1:09:04investigation and we play by a whole
1:09:06different set of rules than most of the
1:09:08states out there and so media agent
1:09:10media Outlets don't have the same
1:09:12ability to come in and sort of force us
1:09:14if you will to disclose information uh
1:09:17that they might be able to get away with
1:09:18a state local agencies right yeah I can
1:09:21see that that they would have more to go
1:09:23up against but there's also so I
1:09:26mean
1:09:28um if I'm dead then the investigation
1:09:34from the federal government's point of
1:09:36view is pretty much
1:09:37closed not necessarily I mean we're
1:09:40going to do what we need to do to tie up
1:09:42the Loose Ends and to the extent that we
1:09:44can do that with your
1:09:46assistance like we we've talked in the
1:09:48past if if we go at this as a team and
1:09:50we have the benefit of your information
1:09:53it allows us to go hunting with the
1:09:54rifle
1:09:56shotgun and there may be things that we
1:09:58wind up having to follow up on down the
1:10:00road um and you're no longer in a
1:10:02position to assist us but but the our
1:10:06idea is to is to do this with you so
1:10:08that it's focused and we won't and it's
1:10:11not going to get anywhere near like it
1:10:12is in Vermont
1:10:14because we've all learned from from that
1:10:17stuff but the way to get it like that is
1:10:19for us to have to try and figure it out
1:10:21ourselves and that's what we and you
1:10:23know that you know exactly what to what
1:10:26we're faced with and what kind of
1:10:27publicity we're all going to be faced
1:10:29with and questions that we're going to
1:10:30have to answer and these other agencies
1:10:33are going to be asking us and those are
1:10:35the things that we're trying to avoid
1:10:36knowing that you're the only one that
1:10:38can help us keep this to a as little
1:10:42publicity as possible it's it's it's up
1:10:44to you all right well so that's that's
1:10:47where we're at
1:10:49with and the reality is
1:10:52if if we're not able to do this with
1:10:55your assistance I can't imagine being
1:10:58able to do this without generating a
1:11:00fair amount of publicity I just don't
1:11:01think it's possible because it's going
1:11:02to be too large in scope it it's going
1:11:05to involve too many too many
1:11:06jurisdictions and too many agencies
1:11:08right and I'm just being
1:11:12honest yeah I mean I know I know you've
1:11:15got to move along with your
1:11:16investigation
1:11:19and uh unfortunately due to my own
1:11:23actions recently I
1:11:26somewhat complicated matters for me so
1:11:30um not surprisingly now there's
1:11:33something else I want out of
1:11:37this but I don't know if I'm even
1:11:39supposed to talk to that about that yet
1:11:41because I I haven't found out like what
1:11:45the options are
1:11:47so um
1:11:56something that you can talk about that's
1:11:57not related to no it's just like the the
1:12:00level of restriction they have me on
1:12:02that JL makes
1:12:05uh I mean namely like uh like my
1:12:08so-called wreck time is now fresh air
1:12:10time because I go out like
1:12:16this no more running in circles I guess
1:12:19they fig they yeah they they keep me my
1:12:23selling up I get f I won't want to run
1:12:29anymore but
1:12:31um yeah I I know all this I know that's
1:12:34unrelated to anything we've talked about
1:12:37so far obviously it's a new situation
1:12:39that doesn't really change the fact it's
1:12:40an everyday reality
1:12:43so so I'm trying
1:12:46to figure out what what if any options
1:12:51there are regarding within that within
1:12:53the system yeah
1:12:56[Music]
1:12:58anyway um that and like I say
1:13:05I
1:13:09um I think so far yeah things are have
1:13:12worked fine I
1:13:18uh but yeah I am concerned about
1:13:23um not so much the like right here and
1:13:26now publicity I think we can keep that
1:13:28Under Wraps to a large extent I'm more
1:13:33worried if it's possible I intend to do
1:13:37something take steps to minimize the
1:13:40down the road publicity for L
1:13:47right yeah and um because honestly you
1:13:50guys I you know
1:13:57you know I mean there's nothing I'm I'm
1:13:59not trying to get anything else out of
1:14:01this at this point you know and
1:14:05um as my you know and I did say you know
1:14:09I wanted to just get this all cleared up
1:14:12and that way you're not digging for who
1:14:14knows how many years down the road you
1:14:16know trying to connect the dots and just
1:14:19make it all go away but
1:14:23um uh
1:14:27but I don't know I I just have to figure
1:14:29out the best way to do that to make it
1:14:31all go make it all I understand that but
1:14:34too and I you've heard me say this many
1:14:37many times but
1:14:39the at some point in time you may your
1:14:42choices may your your choice may
1:14:44be the reality could be that Lany and
1:14:50everybody
1:14:51else knows what you did based on what
1:14:55you said you did or everybody else
1:14:59including Laney gets to see the Fiasco
1:15:03and the media frenzy that is created by
1:15:08law enforcement trying to figure out
1:15:10what specul speculating what you did cuz
1:15:12I told you you know on the one trip that
1:15:15we've looked at um surrounded New York
1:15:18we have 10 viable well people that are
1:15:23missing that we know of those are the
1:15:24just ones that are still reported that
1:15:26way and so if we have to and we know you
1:15:30didn't do do that
1:15:32but that's what that's what we're
1:15:34looking at in each one of these these
1:15:37trips is we're faced with if if you
1:15:39don't tell us our options are
1:15:42to be public with that agency because we
1:15:46can't ask questions right and not expect
1:15:48questions in return and so we are we're
1:15:51we're really living up to our end of the
1:15:53bargaining because at this point in end
1:15:54EV investigation if you were weren't
1:15:56cooperating with us this would already
1:15:58have been happening and the media frenzy
1:16:00would be crazy with us trying to figure
1:16:02it out cu we do have enough information
1:16:05on your on your trips at least to do
1:16:08police work right not that we're going
1:16:10to come like you you know you don't
1:16:11think we're to find anything out but we
1:16:13have to try and so and I know that's
1:16:16tough for you to think about in in the
1:16:18future is that the reality may be
1:16:22that you know one's worse than the other
1:16:26obviously right so especially the one in
1:16:30New York I mean the only reason we're
1:16:33not just showing you a picture here is
1:16:34these guys in the FBI have been
1:16:36incredibly restrained about asking that
1:16:39part of the country for assistance
1:16:42because if they ask that part of the
1:16:43country for assistance the immediate
1:16:45response is going to be what do you have
1:16:48you have and so that's the reason we're
1:16:50not sitting here throwing you know
1:16:53pictures in front of you and going to
1:16:55you first because you know we understand
1:16:58you're cooperating with us Vermont
1:17:01understands it and that's why they're on
1:17:02board and we just like to continue that
1:17:05effort instead of you know having this
1:17:08whole media frenzy too rightly and you
1:17:11know with respect to Laney I mean there
1:17:14is that whole frenzy that it's going to
1:17:16be created you know uh if if things slow
1:17:19down I think um you know we touched on
1:17:23this last time is that there may
1:17:26some benefit at the end of this to well
1:17:30media says that Israel Keys killed 40
1:17:32people which you know based upon some
1:17:34wild speculation as opposed to he killed
1:17:3710 and then also gave closure to those
1:17:40families as his sort of last effort and
1:17:44and I know that doesn't matter to
1:17:46you it may matter to her and you know
1:17:49we're always going to be bound to not
1:17:52talk about this just like we are now and
1:17:56assume you're not going to be telling
1:17:57people
1:17:58details other people that could you know
1:18:00what I mean what do you mean well I mean
1:18:01you do press releases all the time yeah
1:18:03but you but but you know that the
1:18:05details of this these investigations are
1:18:09right here right now and
1:18:12that a lot of these details aren't going
1:18:14to be released well that is my concern
1:18:17that
1:18:22um yeah I I how much I
1:18:27mean I don't know I don't see I don't
1:18:30know that because I I mean I see you
1:18:32know I watch the news that there there
1:18:34are press releases that are done on
1:18:36other so press releases though are
1:18:39different than what I think you're
1:18:41worried about and rightly so press
1:18:43releases are designed for to help us
1:18:46gather additional information so our
1:18:48release of information while while
1:18:51investigation is ongoing is limited to
1:18:54the absolute minimum necessary to try
1:18:57and obtain the additional information
1:18:59that we're seeking okay does that make
1:19:02sense yeah it makes
1:19:03sense and as long as the investigation
1:19:05is
1:19:06ongoing we're not going to be throwing
1:19:09out information just for the sake of
1:19:11throwing it out that's not the way we
1:19:13operate
1:19:15right you've seen specials on the FBI
1:19:17come on everybody talks about our secret
1:19:19files and how they never give up
1:19:21anything right
1:19:22yeah there you go
1:19:34well yeah I mean let's I like I say I
1:19:37want to have a a chance to to talk about
1:19:42the letter with some people and I want
1:19:44to have a chance to
1:19:46um hear back on the other thing I'm not
1:19:49going to hold my breath on
1:19:51that but you least see what the options
1:20:00are like I say I would have preferred to
1:20:03wait until they find the bodies in
1:20:06Vermont but it sounds like that could be
1:20:08a while so I guess as long as we have
1:20:10that letter from them and um you know as
1:20:14soon as I have a chance to to look it
1:20:23over move on to the New York trip that I
1:20:27mean you guys already have I'm sure
1:20:29quite a bit of information on it
1:20:31probably have more than I remember at
1:20:33this point except I mean
1:20:36except
1:20:38certain and we could have those too and
1:20:40so we're just sort of holding that in a
1:20:43bance while yeah no I understand so
1:20:46that's that's the only reason so um just
1:20:49so I'm clear I can tell Vermont tomorrow
1:20:51in this conference call that um you
1:20:54appreciate their letter and you intend
1:20:57to go forward with yeah this
1:21:02yeah yeah it's
1:21:05reasonable yeah especially I mean
1:21:07especially on the New York case because
1:21:09I've already given you so much
1:21:11information on it it's we got
1:21:13to can't really stop on that one now
1:21:17so um one thing that might be helpful I
1:21:21don't think this is start giving away
1:21:22anything so we just start thinking along
1:21:24the turns Kevin is back east and of a
1:21:27meeting of criminal Chiefs and um it
1:21:31certainly would be nice for him to start
1:21:32networking whatever criminal chief he
1:21:34needs to in terms of the New York thing
1:21:39now you know again I don't I don't think
1:21:41that gives away anything you have you
1:21:43just told us the body is in New York we
1:21:45want to start striking up
1:21:47relationships with whatever criminal
1:21:50chief he needs to talk to or will need
1:21:52to talk to about the New York thing just
1:21:55what you said you committed yeah but I
1:21:57mean I don't want to talk I don't want
1:21:59to give up any more information on it I
1:22:01mean I understand his point of view but
1:22:03it's you know like I say it's
1:22:05still uh frankly that's going to be too
1:22:08much if like at this point I I don't
1:22:11want to go there
1:22:14yet until
1:22:17like even until I find out where I'm at
1:22:20with what we you know with the new
1:22:23developments
1:22:29okay what about um and I'm just thinking
1:22:32about his trip cuz he' asked me ask you
1:22:35these things say he's going to be there
1:22:37he's also with people in Washington I
1:22:39mean You' already talked to us about
1:22:41Washington and I think these guys have
1:22:43some pictures Washington state state
1:22:45yeah they have some pictures they want
1:22:47to show you about that just to let you
1:22:50know we did oh you found the boat
1:22:56had better days that cover was a good
1:22:59investment though really still
1:23:03shap looks like it's a little weaky at
1:23:07this was still in his driveway just uh
1:23:10just sitting there he hadn't touched
1:23:16it yeah I had big plans for
1:23:22that oh I was going bring it up here but
1:23:26bring up here and put
1:23:30motor but
1:23:34um decided it was time to leave the last
1:23:38one I probably would have picked
1:23:43it been there for
1:23:47[Music]
1:23:51a so the thing about Washington is
1:23:53little simpler from his perspective
1:23:55there's only two Federal districts there
1:23:58eastern and western eastern is more like
1:24:00Tacoma yaka Western is
1:24:03Seattle
1:24:05right where is the L it's okan Yakama
1:24:10and then the Seattle t com that's in the
1:24:12western right um and I think you'd like
1:24:15to be in a position to sort of just chat
1:24:18very briefly with one of those criminal
1:24:19Chiefs if not both and he needs to the
1:24:22foundation well the problem I have was
1:24:25talking about anything related to
1:24:26Washington is
1:24:29um not playing ball with the right
1:24:32people because those positive are not
1:24:34going to be
1:24:37Federal in case they're not federal
1:24:39cases
1:24:41well I think Kevin explained to you that
1:24:43like different stuff
1:24:46okay well I mean I think Kevin explained
1:24:48to you that the jurisdiction that we can
1:24:51exercise is pretty expansive especially
1:24:53if it's part
1:24:55of no I I understand that but again
1:24:58we're this is going to be hard to talk
1:25:00about without getting the stuff we're
1:25:02not supposed to talk about but
1:25:06um
1:25:09uh on things you know the way things pan
1:25:12out you know the things we've already
1:25:14talked about then uh I may need those
1:25:19details uh of the Washington case that
1:25:26um that I would be better served to wait
1:25:30you know to um if that's where the route
1:25:33I have to
1:25:36go I mean you know what I
1:25:39mean I think I do not sure I I know we
1:25:42talked a little bit about because yeah
1:25:45because like there's a big difference
1:25:47between state and federal it seems and
1:25:50it seems like Washington might be a
1:25:52state that
1:25:54but that's something that we can sort of
1:25:58start working on in the background just
1:25:59so you know I'm not asking that here now
1:26:02today but that's something that usually
1:26:04does require cooperation between even
1:26:06the federal districts even if they're
1:26:08state things so you're saying there's
1:26:10two I'm sorry two dist two districts in
1:26:13Wasington Federal districts yeah so
1:26:15there's two Federal districts that would
1:26:17probably just sort of roach with it one
1:26:19in in Spokan and yaka the main offices
1:26:23in one and then Seattle and Tacoma are
1:26:25the Western District so that's just
1:26:28dividing line I don't know exactly where
1:26:31it is but pretty much you Seattle and
1:26:33Tacoma where most of the times are
1:26:35everything like Ellensburg or yeah I
1:26:37think that's that's Ellensburg is uh
1:26:40elburg is west or no east east east
1:26:44elburg sort of outside of you're going
1:26:46to need both
1:26:49districts cuz I don't yeah well I mean
1:26:53it's something I mean the good thing
1:26:54about Washington is we have some you
1:26:58know pretty good relationships with both
1:27:01us attorneys
1:27:03there yeah no I understand what you're
1:27:06saying but
1:27:11um that
1:27:12was few years ago so but no I
1:27:22um just seems like
1:27:25I might end up having to talk to like
1:27:28State people there I don't know I don't
1:27:32know either but I mean the good thing is
1:27:33the federal people have their
1:27:35counterparts you know like Vermont was
1:27:37pretty connected with the chian county
1:27:39folks you know we can sort of get them
1:27:42on board and and makes the transition
1:27:44easier sort of uh move forward in their
1:27:47jurisdiction if that's the way you
1:27:49choose to go obviously have to be on
1:27:51board anyway right so um
1:27:55that's it's useful for him
1:27:57to give him a heads
1:28:01up and I think Frank can correct me if
1:28:05I'm wrong obviously but I think the
1:28:07sooner that uh they have that
1:28:09opportunity the less likely you are to
1:28:11kind of get Dr from one jurisdiction to
1:28:13another because they'll already things
1:28:14in
1:28:18place no I um
1:28:27I'm a little my concern at this point is
1:28:31uh not knowing like I say how current
1:28:34things are going to pan out
1:28:40um the information that I still have uh
1:28:44could come in handy if I need it um and
1:28:48if I give it out now before I mean I
1:28:51yeah I don't think I'll need it in that
1:28:53respect but you know you never know I
1:28:55don't know I don't know what's going to
1:28:57happen and
1:28:59uh and if I give it all out now in
1:29:01particularly you know anything about
1:29:04Washington uh that could seriously
1:29:07compromise
1:29:10U my
1:29:12options future options I think um of I
1:29:17can bring that back in at some point
1:29:19obviously you know we can take this
1:29:22staggered approach which I think is
1:29:25probably a good one to go to different
1:29:27places and to do them more at a time but
1:29:30um the plan that we propos to you is to
1:29:33do exactly that so like you sort of do
1:29:35the New York one we make sure we have
1:29:37everybody on board and the New York one
1:29:40whatever jurisdictions we need to get
1:29:42that information agreement in place and
1:29:44then we can move on to Washington right
1:29:47Washington you know basically would have
1:29:49the same
1:29:50agreement and then you know it could be
1:29:53an option that you could always use
1:29:55later down the road if you don't like
1:29:57the way things are are going you can ask
1:30:00us to Simply say Hey you know there's
1:30:01that thing in Washington that I helped
1:30:03you on can you you know reach out to
1:30:05those people again and see what they're
1:30:07willing to do so there is that I mean I
1:30:10I I get you if you don't want to kind of
1:30:13you know sort of give away cards but I
1:30:15think the the plan that we proposed here
1:30:18sort of like a one at a time staggered
1:30:20approach where we eventually get to
1:30:23where we need to be going and it doesn't
1:30:24like result in this land just massive
1:30:28yeah but it is going to have to be
1:30:29spread out over the next who knows how
1:30:31long because I don't plan
1:30:33on like I say until certain issues
1:30:37ongoing issues right now are resolved I
1:30:39don't plan on getting out all that's
1:30:41just you know well that's not true I
1:30:44mean if I get you know I who knows how I
1:30:47don't know how long this is going to
1:30:49take I don't I don't know you know I my
1:30:52impression is could be a pretty wide
1:30:55range
1:30:56of time frames that could happen and
1:31:05uh but yeah first and for you know one
1:31:08step at a time I've got to I've got to
1:31:10have a chance
1:31:14to to tackle you know whatever new
1:31:21issu um yeah we can s review that
1:31:26obviously need to think about this
1:31:27there's one suggestion in the email
1:31:30about other details in The Courier
1:31:34um case that they may want to know about
1:31:37and they want to conference call in now
1:31:40that you have this letter i how do you
1:31:41feel about
1:31:43that that's I mean with who is it with
1:31:47the investigators so like the uh
1:31:51detectives bu on the case
1:31:54now we can do it two ways I don't know
1:31:56if they're going to have a lot of
1:31:56questions if they have a few we can
1:31:58simply ask those and so of get them the
1:32:01information they need you know um but is
1:32:04it going to be just like a few people I
1:32:07mean I you say conference call it just
1:32:09whoever's on the other line I don't know
1:32:10who would be on the line probably just
1:32:12the detective and the prosecutor okay
1:32:15that's you know I don't I don't know I
1:32:18it seems like it'd be better I don't
1:32:20have a problem with that it's just it
1:32:21seems like it'd be better if there's not
1:32:23a of people on since we're still trying
1:32:25to keep it on the down I it would only
1:32:28be people who were Bound by this letter
1:32:30if it is
1:32:32people like I say I feel like I've
1:32:34already given all the information they
1:32:37need but if they want more that's fine I
1:32:41think they had some followup about what
1:32:42the house looked like and things like
1:32:43that that they uh they're just dealing
1:32:45with some administrative issues on their
1:32:46end and they're trying to release the
1:32:49house to the family and and trying to
1:32:51get rid of the house and they're not
1:32:52going to keep it the way it was want
1:32:55make sure they document everything that
1:32:56they need to
1:33:01Great given that they have this
1:33:02assurance I don't think it's a problem
1:33:04but that's something you maybe they
1:33:06don't have much but I'm going to talk to
1:33:07you about that tomorrow yeah that's fine
1:33:10and
1:33:11um I uh I can say if you can forward
1:33:16that
1:33:17you I imagine very shortly I'll have a
1:33:20chance to talk to them about it yeah
1:33:24um
1:33:35that's there's the issue with the US
1:33:37Marshals but like I say I don't
1:33:41know I know security is a difficult
1:33:44thing that it kind of basically tell us
1:33:45to mind our own business when it comes
1:33:50to that kind of thing I
1:33:52mean I don't know it's a difficult
1:33:55situation given what happened they're
1:33:58they're responsible for you and custody
1:34:00so they would have
1:34:01been pretty cool gotten too much
1:34:07farther so they're probably not going
1:34:09who knows I doubt they're going to be
1:34:10open to much of your suggestions but I
1:34:12don't know I'm not going to take any of
1:34:13my
1:34:17suggestions my suggestions seem to hold
1:34:19less and less water lately
1:34:25I'm sure they're very polite about it
1:34:26though
1:34:29yeah they all seem quite highly amused
1:34:32last time I was at the
1:34:39courthouse yeah definitely seem to have
1:34:42changed their protocol for the way they
1:34:44do
1:34:46things so Laing things up a little bit
1:34:50and we weren't sure exactly how to deal
1:34:52with this situ a with Vermont you know
1:34:55given that yeah that was not well
1:34:57thought out on my part as soon as these
1:35:01guys mentioned that I was like oh [ __ ]
1:35:02one more thing I didn't think of before
1:35:04I did that you seem to have a basic plan
1:35:07but just sort of a to B and then the see
1:35:10is sort of left out there yeah well it
1:35:12wasn't really like a high probability of
1:35:15success there mess
1:35:18circumstances no understood understood
1:35:22obviously
1:35:23football team us Marshalls between me
1:35:26and the door
1:35:29so and offic
1:35:33yes pretty sure I saw him come in at
1:35:36some point he's claiming he didn't
1:35:44but you have anything else you want to
1:35:47talk about or questions you have on
1:35:49these other matters no I I think the I
1:35:52mean from my persp perspective I think
1:35:54the letter is good I
1:35:56um but yeah
1:35:58it's my perspective I'm glad they're
1:36:00still willing to work with you
1:36:04know yeah this is a home run from my
1:36:07perspective um you know and you're
1:36:09certainly check it out these people are
1:36:11who they say they are and uh I want to
1:36:13make a call to any of these people I'm
1:36:15sure that
1:36:16uh they'll take the call and confirm
1:36:19that that's sign your own matter but you
1:36:21did say that everyone on that is with
1:36:24the state not with the feds exactly okay
1:36:28so feds are already you know we've been
1:36:30talking to them from the outset and
1:36:32they're you know under the Department of
1:36:33Justice right anyway so they have no
1:36:37problem they just want to and the state
1:36:38is they're The Entity that's more likely
1:36:41to want to release information on me
1:36:43exactly and I can tell you um they were
1:36:46the ones responsible for the
1:36:47investigation right so there yeah and
1:36:50let me share this with you um I think
1:36:53it's kind of important in s of model and
1:36:54how to deal with things I know that you
1:36:56know obviously there were reporters that
1:36:58called maybe friends or family members
1:37:00of of you I think what happened in the
1:37:03outset is like we said you know we
1:37:04provided them with the information they
1:37:06didn't know what they were dealing with
1:37:07at first they had no idea and I think
1:37:10someone spoke you know at a term or at a
1:37:13school whatever you want to call it
1:37:15maybe one person over there and now
1:37:18they've realized oh [ __ ] we shouldn't
1:37:21have said what we said and and they
1:37:22basically have shut it down down no one
1:37:24can confirm that story so I think it's
1:37:27incredibly helpful to have this sort of
1:37:30model going forward and to be able to
1:37:32tell them that look you know we want to
1:37:34limit media attention right New York
1:37:36victim we want to kind of uh keep things
1:37:39in one jurisdiction we want FBI to
1:37:41handle it because we're dealing with
1:37:43something that's more than just your
1:37:45jurisdiction for all they knew that you
1:37:47know was just you know Alaskan and the
1:37:49couriers and oh boy we've got some sort
1:37:51of we've caught our ourselves
1:37:54our suspect they didn't understand the
1:37:56big picture and I think that's what
1:37:58happened because that was obviously a
1:37:59concern to us you know so talking to
1:38:02them but I think when you get their
1:38:05perspective I think they they realize
1:38:07that oh you know it's something we
1:38:09should be doing they they realize the
1:38:11severity of it and now I think we've got
1:38:13pretty good relationship with them and
1:38:15you know we're happy to talk to them as
1:38:17long as you know they're on board
1:38:18they're you know part of the team and
1:38:20again we're just building momentum and
1:38:22the next year
1:38:24you know we can have Vermont and they've
1:38:25offered to do that and say they'll reach
1:38:27out to the next jurisdiction simply and
1:38:29say Hey you know we did this in our
1:38:31jurisdiction and it worked and it worked
1:38:33well you should too and this way you
1:38:36know we've got State local officers
1:38:39reaching out to the other jurisdiction
1:38:40State locals there and basically telling
1:38:43them this is a good idea so really it
1:38:46gets the momentum snowballs and it can't
1:38:48be stopped and no one's going to get in
1:38:49the way of it so I think that's the best
1:38:52way to control
1:38:54you know any kind of Med attention here
1:38:55it's just the cooperation of as a whole
1:38:58right I think you know we been doing a
1:39:00good job of it with I mean at some point
1:39:04though I I don't I mean I haven't felt
1:39:08like this so far but I mean I know you
1:39:10guys keep wanting information
1:39:14and and U like I've said I don't want to
1:39:17give out everything all at once but um I
1:39:21just don't want us to get in a situation
1:39:22where you know we reach an impass and
1:39:25you're like okay we're going to go and
1:39:27start doing press releases now or
1:39:29whatever and and I and then I'm going to
1:39:32be all pissed off frankly and you know
1:39:35and then so I mean I that's all I ask
1:39:40I'm not saying this is going to remain a
1:39:41compatible relationship obviously but
1:39:44you know if we can keep it at least an
1:39:46open communication and that's why we're
1:39:48frankly we we came over there today and
1:39:50you told us you weren't in a talkative
1:39:51move and we still wanted to bring you
1:39:52over because we still want to keep this
1:39:56all right this relationship going you
1:39:57know we're getting pressures we're all
1:39:59getting pressures from the powers to be
1:40:01that control us our bosses to get to to
1:40:04get information you understand that we
1:40:06we all have jobs to do and so we just
1:40:08want to keep the communication open with
1:40:10that and that's my I guess that's what
1:40:12I'm saying I'm not so concerned about
1:40:14the people in this room I'm concerned
1:40:16about people putting pressure on you to
1:40:18get the answers I imagine they you know
1:40:20they don't care about my agenda they
1:40:21want all the answers like right now you
1:40:23know and I understand that
1:40:25but um I just hope it doesn't come to
1:40:29that I just hope it doesn't come to like
1:40:30a stand off yeah I think you know this
1:40:32is a business deal I think you know
1:40:34agent pay explained it it's sort of you
1:40:36know it's just a it's a business deal
1:40:37it's kind of strange because you know
1:40:39obviously we all have different
1:40:40interests but that's usually the case in
1:40:42any kind of business deal is you have
1:40:44stuff that we want and we have you know
1:40:47things that we can assure you of that
1:40:49you know is of some value to you I think
1:40:51and so in any kind of business deal like
1:40:53I said said negotiations any good
1:40:54negotiations everybody walks away from
1:40:56the table you know not getting exactly
1:40:59what they want I think you know we we've
1:41:01basically been able to manage our
1:41:02supervisors that way by saying look he's
1:41:04not going to give us everything up front
1:41:07okay he's not going to do it but we're
1:41:10able to kind of say hey but but he will
1:41:12maybe give us one at a time and draw it
1:41:14out for a period of time to keep sort of
1:41:16the benefit of the bargain for us and
1:41:19not spending man hours and you know
1:41:21going through all the the press and
1:41:23media and you know other local
1:41:25departments so yeah we're not getting
1:41:27exactly what we want and you're probably
1:41:29not getting exactly what you want you
1:41:31probably like to not give us any of it
1:41:33but you know it's a business deal and
1:41:36you know we're keeping up our end of it
1:41:38and I think we can continue to work
1:41:39together as long as we're reasonable
1:41:41yeah I I just I just wanted to I figured
1:41:44that was the case I just wanted to let
1:41:46you know that's what I was thinking but
1:41:48know that when we're while we're doing
1:41:49what we're doing our responsibilities
1:41:50and talking to you and trying to keep
1:41:52this going there there are lots of other
1:41:54people out there investigating trips and
1:41:57airline tickets and phone logs and
1:41:59things like that doing what police do
1:42:00and there's going to come a point in
1:42:02time where when that investigation
1:42:05reaches a point where they think they
1:42:06have some information that they need to
1:42:08act on where that's the timeline we're
1:42:10going to be pushed up against right
1:42:12having them slow
1:42:14down yeah yeah all right well um yeah
1:42:18and the only other thing is on more
1:42:21personal note like I was saying earlier
1:42:23my uh my brothers are visiting this week
1:42:26and honestly you know like I say that
1:42:30whole thing last week I did not plan out
1:42:32very well uh but I would prefer to just
1:42:37try not think about any of this stuff
1:42:39this week
1:42:40here not I mean it's not that I don't
1:42:43want to it's just I guess I'm just
1:42:45juggling too many things in my head
1:42:47right now so
1:42:49um so yeah I and then that'll give me a
1:42:55chance to you know talk to people about
1:42:58that and a couple other concerns I have
1:43:01and okay but I mean for now I mean for
1:43:03now I think we um I yeah I'm just glad
1:43:07that they're still going to I'm just
1:43:10like I bottom line is I'm glad I didn't
1:43:12hear about it on the news like the whole
1:43:14month I have expected them to do a press
1:43:17releas yeah know I think it's a
1:43:19testament to the relationships we built
1:43:21over there yeah so I mean yeah as long
1:43:24as we
1:43:26can yeah that so they in town the the
1:43:31whole
1:43:32week I think they leave
1:43:35on Sunday or Monday so yeah so and I the
1:43:40the main it's not so much that I
1:43:43wouldn't want to you know if it's like a
1:43:44short I don't have a problem from no I'm
1:43:47talking I I just don't want to miss the
1:43:50time that they go over there to visit me
1:43:51or whatever yeah and I don't even know
1:43:54how like what the times are they have
1:43:57available so are they going visit you
1:44:00daily you know yeah probably I think so
1:44:04yeah so I mean I think that's just what
1:44:06I wanted to tell for cuz they you saw in
1:44:07that email they said uh you know you
1:44:09know maybe you have some questions on
1:44:11Thursday or Friday they've got some
1:44:13urgency about the house so I don't know
1:44:14if it's that's fine I mean yeah yeah if
1:44:17you want to get a schedule about when
1:44:18they're going to come we don't want to
1:44:20interfere with that and we don't want to
1:44:21interfere eastern time so if we did it
1:44:23in the morning that would be fine oh no
1:44:25I'm talking about your family coming to
1:44:27visit it doesn't know they don't they
1:44:28don't don't May Poss later this week I
1:44:31mean obviously we would do it tomorrow
1:44:32the next day but um you can sort of let
1:44:35them know we can set a meeting for
1:44:37Thursday or Friday no that's what I'm
1:44:39saying if you want to do a meeting I'm
1:44:41just saying morning with like Easter
1:44:44time yeah 9 or 10 our time and then that
1:44:47cuz I know there's no visiting over
1:44:48there that early and then uh okay and
1:44:51then I would yeah still be around
1:44:53that makes sense that if we have if they
1:44:55have some follow up and yeah if they
1:44:58have stuff need get out of the way
1:45:00that's do you have a
1:45:05prence
1:45:10no check
1:45:16my so you don't get the normal exercise
1:45:19so they let you have the tennis shoes to
1:45:21torture you that you can't run or yeah
1:45:25uh no I just started wearing I don't get
1:45:28a run anymore so my tennis shoes I don't
1:45:31I don't lace them up tight anymore so I
1:45:32just wear you know okay they're slippers
1:45:36now they're not tennis shoes
1:45:39anymore so when you start lacing them up
1:45:41you should be we should pay attention
1:45:43yeah they're they're too tight for me to
1:45:45slip them on or slip them s them off
1:45:54okay so I'll email that to your
1:45:56attorneys and uh you make a little speak
1:45:59later this week yeah and we'll try to
1:46:01hold off and if we do something it'll be
1:46:02like Friday morning early that we won't
1:46:04interrupt your yeah that's that's fine I
1:46:07would think that would work and then
1:46:08maybe by next week say Tuesday or so we
1:46:11can again
1:46:15okay well and I think if we're done well
1:46:19we get him a cigar and let we got you
1:46:21over here awesome
1:46:23wow cigar for nothing well that was I
1:46:27like to think it's a cigar for
1:46:31good for good
1:46:35health ultimately that's going to be up
1:46:37to
1:46:38you okay no look I mean we keep working
1:46:42on this we're working on our end yeah
1:46:46we've done just about everything we can
1:46:47do at this
1:46:51stage tight
1:46:53backwards here all
1:47:21right
1:47:35[Music]
1:47:51for
1:48:21e for
1:49:21for
1:49:31[Music]
1:49:51for
1:50:21e all
1:51:51for
1:52:21for e
1:53:00up how's it going what's that oh yeah
1:53:03you want to hit the head first or no
1:53:08yeah way they are
1:53:19yeah all
1:53:21right can you use the head or anything
1:53:23like that before we start no I'm
1:53:30[Music]
1:53:34good all right we'll run through the uh
1:53:36same stuff that we do I think pretty
1:53:38much every
1:53:40time on this uh I know we covered some
1:53:43of this stuff at the jail but we'll just
1:53:44run through it again uh when we arrived
1:53:46this morning did we interrupt a meeting
1:53:48with your attorney no um and you're here
1:53:51voluntarily is that correct
1:53:54yes um you understand we can't talk
1:53:56about anything to do with the samanic
1:53:58investigation if you do start down that
1:54:00path to stop the interview take you back
1:54:02to
1:54:04jail um run through your Miranda Rights
1:54:09here before we ask any questions you
1:54:12must understand your rights uh you have
1:54:13the right to remain silent anything you
1:54:15say can be used against you in court you
1:54:18have the right to talk to your lawyer
1:54:19for advice before we ask you any
1:54:20questions you have the right to have a
1:54:22lawyer with you during questioning if
1:54:24you cannot afford a lawyer one will be
1:54:26appointed for you before any questioning
1:54:27if you wish uh if you decide to answer
1:54:30questions now without a lawyer pres you
1:54:32have the right to stop answering at any
1:54:33time do you understand these rights as
1:54:35I've explained them to you yes and with
1:54:38those rights in mind are you willing to
1:54:39wave them and speak with us here today
1:54:41yes um as you know you've got at least
1:54:44one standby attorney appointed uh in the
1:54:47discussion of other crimes that type of
1:54:49thing I believe it's Rich cner may also
1:54:51agree Jack Walsh
1:54:53um do you have any desire to have either
1:54:55of those attorneys or any other attorney
1:54:57present today no um are you on any
1:55:00medications or any other substances no
1:55:04and are you having any difficulty
1:55:05understanding where you're at or what's
1:55:06going on no okay all right good any
1:55:10questions before we get started nope
1:55:13okay um we wanted to uh uh bring you
1:55:18over here today give you a little bit of
1:55:19information about uh some things that
1:55:21were going on but also to ask you uh
1:55:23kind of where you're at with
1:55:26things it sounded like you're kind of
1:55:29frustrated with things I don't know if
1:55:31that's something you want to expand on
1:55:32at all uh just things haven't been
1:55:34happening for the last week there were
1:55:37some things that I asked for information
1:55:40on as well as well basically that was
1:55:44the gist of it
1:55:47and and haven't earned anything back
1:55:51so we see I don't know supposedly within
1:55:54the next day or two I'm supposed to get
1:55:56a more
1:55:59comprehensive visit or information or
1:56:01something but so far it hasn't
1:56:07happened we you know we're not talking
1:56:09anything
1:56:10about Samantha coning but what and I've
1:56:13been back East last week I think of
1:56:15those guys told you and they gave me a
1:56:18little bit of an update um Israel but
1:56:20since I've end up loop I wanted to come
1:56:22see it and let you know maybe the
1:56:25conversations I've been having having
1:56:27with other us attorney offices but
1:56:29before I knew that I just thought the
1:56:31same thing same kind of question in Rel
1:56:33in relation to moving things forward you
1:56:36know where where are you at kind of
1:56:38about all this what's your take on this
1:56:40and not talking about what you're doing
1:56:42with other stuff where are you in
1:56:44regards to the discussions we've been
1:56:49having um
1:56:53well I'm same place I've always been uh
1:57:01I I am uh obviously a little concerned
1:57:05about giving out a lot more information
1:57:08especially over too short period of time
1:57:10until I find out where I stand on some
1:57:13other issues
1:57:15so
1:57:18um it'd be nice if all these other
1:57:21issues would just to work themselves out
1:57:23and resolve themselves the way I want
1:57:27them to without my coercion but um
1:57:30that's not going to happen so I got to
1:57:33do what I got to
1:57:43do
1:57:46yeah it would be a lot simpler if I you
1:57:50know would just take certain step so
1:57:52that I could expound upon that a little
1:57:55bit more but um I'm not ready to do that
1:57:59yet
1:58:00so if I have to I will
1:58:03but
1:58:09it's but yeah as far
1:58:12as discussing things
1:58:17about whether it's the Vermont case or
1:58:20you know things that happen prior to
1:58:22that
1:58:25um I think that you know it's probably
1:58:28still going to happen it's
1:58:36just I guess the reality sets in for me
1:58:40as to how how much more time there is to
1:58:42pass before I may find
1:58:45out things I need to find out
1:58:54and your feeling is if you give us
1:58:57additional information that's going to
1:58:58affect other things or not affect other
1:59:00things or you over it yeah it's
1:59:04um once I give out the information then
1:59:07it's uh it's
1:59:09gone well let me just jump in on that
1:59:12cuz you know this is getting
1:59:15um I should say frustrating but I I
1:59:17could almost say it's getting depressing
1:59:19right you know that and maybe you feel
1:59:22the same way that we that you have been
1:59:25meeting with us now about other crimes
1:59:27right for weeks and weeks and weeks and
1:59:31um I think it's getting kind of just
1:59:33downright depressing that we are not
1:59:35moving forward and it's I don't think
1:59:37it's because
1:59:38uh I'm not sure why it is I me we came
1:59:41in here a month ago and laid out that
1:59:44plan that that Frank R so laid out and
1:59:48and you know because we've been kind of
1:59:49bending over backwards from the from the
1:59:51US attorneys off perspective of saying
1:59:54look we're going to work with you and
1:59:56we're going to you know move the other
1:59:59things forward that are going to need to
2:00:00be moved forward all these other crimes
2:00:03right we all kind of understand that
2:00:04we're going to need to move forward and
2:00:06so we thought you were you were on the
2:00:07schedule of wanting to move other crimes
2:00:09investigations forward we know you we
2:00:12know you want to keep the media down you
2:00:14know want you don't want to be charged
2:00:15other jurisdictions we know those things
2:00:17we took them into account and we came up
2:00:19with a strategy to say well let's move
2:00:20them forward we really kind
2:00:23of you know busted ourselves to do that
2:00:27so we're getting kind of just like I
2:00:30said I I should be saying frustrated but
2:00:31I'll start with just kind of depressed
2:00:34about that we're not moving those things
2:00:35forward and
2:00:37so what's your view what's your view on
2:00:39that and the same with law enforcement
2:00:41you know this is a typical the way move
2:00:43forward with this type of investigation
2:00:45and so for us it's frustrating and we're
2:00:48we're doing it this way because this was
2:00:50the way that the Israel wanted to
2:00:52do it what's what's your take what's
2:00:55your take on on R this isn't the way I
2:00:56wanted to do it well just tell us tell
2:00:59us what your take is on on that well my
2:01:01take
2:01:02is you know I've said this before even
2:01:05though we may at this point
2:01:09all want the same end results um it
2:01:13doesn't mean we're still we're on the
2:01:15same team by any means you know we've
2:01:18always known that we're not pretending
2:01:20I'm not you know I'm not um
2:01:23I understand that you've got your
2:01:24schedule you've got your deadlines
2:01:26you've got things you've got to get done
2:01:28but honestly that's of no concern to me
2:01:31I uh I if I can if we can continue to
2:01:34work together and uh and make stuff
2:01:39happen great if not you know if if if
2:01:42it's not going the way you want it to or
2:01:46you're not getting your information fast
2:01:48enough then um do what you got to do
2:01:52you know but I already know you'll you
2:01:54know you'll be back so well maybe maybe
2:01:59we've been maybe we've been too honest
2:02:00with you then I
2:02:03guess we know we're
2:02:05on we know that we're not on the same
2:02:08team well yeah because you're saying I
2:02:10mean I think what you're saying is
2:02:11you're kind of challenging us and I
2:02:12didn't think that's where we were in our
2:02:14discussions no I'm not challenging you
2:02:16I'm just saying I know you you've got
2:02:18your agenda what you need to get done
2:02:22and what you need
2:02:24to you have to have something to show
2:02:27for it for your work on this well but
2:02:29it's sort of funny cuz we thought it was
2:02:31your agenda that was kind of driving
2:02:33this of wanting to move things quickly
2:02:35and wanting to keep the media and you
2:02:36know that's why we've been working on
2:02:38kind of your agenda that's why I'm like
2:02:39wait a second this is what Israel
2:02:41wanted no I you're right I mean it's so
2:02:45far it has gone according
2:02:47to according to my agenda as much as it
2:02:50can um
2:02:52the issue is is U there's still a lot of
2:02:56time that's going to pass before I get
2:02:59the things I want
2:03:01so if I give up uh all give up all my
2:03:05cards right away then that's it I I have
2:03:08no control over what happens a month
2:03:10from now or six months from
2:03:12now I I guess I respectfully disagree
2:03:15with that because to the extent that um
2:03:19we demonstrate that the plan that came
2:03:22up with collectively a month ago is
2:03:24working then that is going to help you
2:03:27get the things that you want and at this
2:03:30point we've only really been able to
2:03:31demonstrate that half of the plan is
2:03:33working and frankly that's our half we
2:03:35did everything that we agreed to do and
2:03:39you haven't done what you agree to
2:03:48do first of all I didn't agree to do
2:03:50anything today I told you that
2:03:53so you know I I told you I've got
2:03:57different agenda now than when we came
2:03:59up with that plan because of things that
2:04:02happened between then and now so you
2:04:05know I you know fine I changed the rules
2:04:08shame on me but uh that doesn't really
2:04:11change the bottom line I'm not going
2:04:14to I'm going at least find out what my
2:04:17options
2:04:18are and uh that hasn't happened yet
2:04:23so you know I understand it put a hitch
2:04:26in the schedule but
2:04:29um you know and and that's not the only
2:04:32issue right now there are some other you
2:04:34know other things that we can't talk
2:04:35about and that's an issue with me too
2:04:38and I know that
2:04:40um you know there's a lot of debate that
2:04:42these things aren't connected but to a
2:04:45certain extent for for me and what
2:04:48happens to me in the end they are pretty
2:04:50closely connected
2:04:52so well as we've said before we won't
2:04:55talk to you about anything related to
2:04:56just now but if you want to request a
2:04:58meeting we right and if that's what you
2:05:00guys decide that's totally up to you and
2:05:03your Council right and we'll make
2:05:05ourselves available but we won't discuss
2:05:07them now no I understand that and
2:05:11um you know you said you don't want to
2:05:13give up all your cards we understand
2:05:15that we haven't been ask when they do
2:05:17that all your cars you can never sure
2:05:20but we'd love it if you just said yeah
2:05:21I'm just tell you everything then
2:05:22frankly I would I would say things would
2:05:25move much more quickly in the end
2:05:28because because we'd be working on those
2:05:30and getting them all resolved and
2:05:31getting it all lined out the way we said
2:05:32so that we can control it and you would
2:05:34control it I would love that right you
2:05:36know that but I'm not I won't even ask
2:05:38you that today right I'm not going to
2:05:39say Israel you know tell me everything
2:05:42you know I think it would be in your
2:05:44best interest but you don't see it that
2:05:46way fine you know I get it um I've asked
2:05:49you to think about that but but
2:05:52um we got to start we got to start the
2:05:55process cuz you know that everything
2:05:57takes a little bit of time and we can
2:05:59move it quickly but if you know if like
2:06:02I said before we going to be sitting
2:06:03here a year from now we all agree no but
2:06:05now a month is gone by so now we only
2:06:07got 11 months down you know and we're
2:06:09going to be he might going to be saying
2:06:10next month we got 10 months to go uh CU
2:06:13we all agreed we weren't going to be
2:06:14sitting here in in the year doing this
2:06:17so uh you
2:06:19know oh believe me I'm very well aware
2:06:23of passage of time so
2:06:27um I uh I have my own definite agenda on
2:06:31that issue but as I said I don't have a
2:06:35lot of control over it so but I think
2:06:37you have more than you think in other
2:06:39words you can
2:06:41you discuss the other crimes with us
2:06:44then that moves things forward and
2:06:45that's under your control right you only
2:06:47decide what you want to tell us you is
2:06:49real Keys sitting here today control
2:06:52what you tell us we then control what we
2:06:54do with it and weact and we've
2:06:57demonstrated to you and you know it's in
2:07:00our best
2:07:01interest to control
2:07:04it for now yeah I I know I understand I
2:07:08I understand where we're at right
2:07:12now in order for things
2:07:15to progress I
2:07:22I have
2:07:28to take a guess as to what's going to
2:07:31happen next I guess you could
2:07:35say which is I don't know yeah there's a
2:07:37lot of things that could happen even
2:07:39with the information I've already given
2:07:40you there's a lot of things that could
2:07:45happen I got it it's all it's your
2:07:49schedule you know you you said it was
2:07:51our schedule it's really your schedule
2:07:53and that we've been trying to work on so
2:07:55we can sit here and guess and wonder
2:07:56what's going to happen in the future and
2:07:58none of us are going to predict right I
2:07:59mean it's whatever happens is going to
2:08:01happen but the only thing we can control
2:08:02is what we're doing right now and we
2:08:05have a definite concrete certain way
2:08:08that we can move forward now that will
2:08:10definitely
2:08:13expedite whatever happens down the line
2:08:17because as you know you know we've got
2:08:19all these other crims to talk about that
2:08:20will definitely certain we start now
2:08:24everything else is just speculation so
2:08:26we can wait and see but time's going to
2:08:28move
2:08:31by yeah no I I see what you're saying is
2:08:35like the ultimate goal if that is the
2:08:37ultimate goal that I put all this stuff
2:08:39out on the table then yeah it's better
2:08:42to do it now but
2:08:44that's I haven't decided yet that that's
2:08:46my ultimate goal certainly not on these
2:08:50terms um
2:08:54you know like I say there's certain
2:08:56information that I've already given you
2:08:58so um so what happens with that you know
2:09:02I already I've already given up control
2:09:04of that to a certain extent
2:09:08um but
2:09:12uh everything I still have you know
2:09:15that's it's still within my power to
2:09:18decide how that information gets to you
2:09:21from me to you as a matter of
2:09:24speaking exactly and and what I'm
2:09:26suggesting to you
2:09:29is you know you've got a lot of cards to
2:09:31play and we respected that but we're
2:09:35asking you to play one more
2:09:37card and I think that's in your best
2:09:40interest I'm not telling you that just
2:09:42because you know that's what I think you
2:09:44want here I've been using your goals all
2:09:48along
2:09:51well it's not in my best interest today
2:09:53because there's absolutely nothing I
2:09:55gained from it just more
2:09:59worries move the ball
2:10:01forward forward to what though I don't
2:10:04there's
2:10:06no there's no objective that I'm moving
2:10:10towards by giving you more information
2:10:12well when talking about the other crimes
2:10:14the C let's just we're using the
2:10:16couriers we investigating that we've
2:10:18agreed certain things with the couriers
2:10:20and we've looked up to them right
2:10:23and so your objective of that I think
2:10:26Remains the Same keep it out of the
2:10:27media right have in charge you
2:10:30so you're trying to further those object
2:10:32I mean that's only one of the objectives
2:10:33I think we're mutually trying but that's
2:10:35an indefinite objective that's I mean
2:10:38the couriers that's essentially a closed
2:10:40case I've given you all the information
2:10:42you need on it and I'll continue to give
2:10:44you any information you need and if it
2:10:47ever goes to me being indicted for it
2:10:50then I'll probably you know bleed guilty
2:10:52to everything and so that's you know you
2:10:54achieved your objective in that and I
2:10:57yes I got some things out of it so it's
2:10:59a closed issue you know but anything
2:11:02else we discuss beyond that then that's
2:11:05um objectives my objectives are hazy at
2:11:09best I don't really have any
2:11:12objectives it's like yeah I have
2:11:14concerns about it but
2:11:16um but until I decide um
2:11:21whether those concerns are legitimate or
2:11:24whether uh whether I have anything else
2:11:26I want to get out of that information
2:11:28then there's no reason for me to talk
2:11:29about it especially not at this point
2:11:32because I mean really in the scope of
2:11:34the situation that I'm in not really
2:11:37that much time has gone by I mean I
2:11:40still don't even have answers on stuff
2:11:41that we were talking about months ago I
2:11:45mean that's me I don't have those
2:11:46answers yet I don't have them are you
2:11:49talking about discussions that we've
2:11:50been having about other crims that you
2:11:52don't have answers to something uh
2:11:54partially yeah I
2:11:57mean from us that's not uh you know like
2:12:01I say there there's some things that you
2:12:03know we can't talk about
2:12:07and and but yeah
2:12:15there's
2:12:17anyway neither here nor there it'll
2:12:19happen it's just
2:12:26and you talked about deciding how
2:12:29ultimately the information we get from
2:12:31from you to us and how besides you're
2:12:34just telling us how right that's another
2:12:36issue
2:12:38too is I may have some options as far as
2:12:41that
2:12:42goes how to get you at least some
2:12:44information
2:12:48without uh
2:12:51well and that's what we tried to give
2:12:53you we tried to give you that ability
2:12:56the plan was you tell us you
2:13:00know we in New York so we can work with
2:13:03them and get their insurances and and
2:13:05already starting those processes but we
2:13:08just need to move them forward a
2:13:09littleit doesn't it doesn't
2:13:15well
2:13:19um no I'm not I'm not
2:13:23on New York's attorney's schedule or
2:13:27anybody else this was Israel key
2:13:30schedule that's what I thought it was
2:13:31your schedule of no I don't have a
2:13:33schedule I it's different from what I
2:13:36understood because you told
2:13:38us I want I want yeah if you're talking
2:13:42about my ultimate schedule yeah but
2:13:43that's kind of a ways off right now
2:13:47so I'm just say I'm saying like week to
2:13:50week a month I don't have a schedule
2:13:52right now I don't have anything to gain
2:13:54from it I I I thought you did have a
2:13:56schedule when you say a ways off now I
2:13:59don't know what you're talking about
2:14:00because month to month is What's
2:14:01Happening Now basically we're moving at
2:14:03we've gone from moving at a fairly you
2:14:06know reasonable Pace to being month to
2:14:09month and six months is going to pass
2:14:10and then a year is going to pass and
2:14:12then a year and a half and two years you
2:14:13know and I'm tell I'm offering you an
2:14:15opportunity now to move that more
2:14:19quickly and i' like to start with uh not
2:14:21even start I just like to move forward
2:14:23on New York because it's going to move
2:14:25everything every the pace of everything
2:14:27more quickly which is what I thought you
2:14:28wanted if you tell me differently you
2:14:30say I I don't care how long anything
2:14:32takes anymore then I understand that's
2:14:34different no I do I do care about how
2:14:36long things take I just
2:14:40uh
2:14:42um first of all I don't know what time
2:14:45has to do with any of the crimes that
2:14:49any information that I give you because
2:14:51is
2:14:52um if you think I want to be indicted or
2:14:56charged with any of these other crimes
2:14:58then you're wrong you told us that we're
2:15:00trying to avoid that right we're trying
2:15:02avoid that by controlling so I don't
2:15:05understand how getting information is
2:15:07going
2:15:08to well let's just let's just say what
2:15:11what happens if um ifont says you
2:15:14know we thought this guy was cooperating
2:15:17what if what if they were to
2:15:18say we're going to charge him so then
2:15:20you charging
2:15:22from well they're going to have to wait
2:15:23their turn aren't
2:15:25they what happen but how so how long is
2:15:28that going to take right that's what I'm
2:15:30trying to say that's what my concern is
2:15:32yeah so right now we're they're not not
2:15:34charging but what do you think explain
2:15:36to me what do you think would happen if
2:15:38they do charge if if if you know we say
2:15:41Israel just says you guys do whatever
2:15:42you got to do and then they were to go
2:15:45forward and we lose control what do you
2:15:47think would happen with that well I
2:15:49assume I don't don't know for sure I I
2:15:52assume there's a few different things
2:15:54that could happen none of which are good
2:15:56for me from my perspective so that's
2:15:59what I'm trying to tell you you know is
2:16:01is
2:16:03that working with your
2:16:06goals seems to be in your best interest
2:16:09to move forward with New York so that
2:16:12Vermont doesn't charge because if
2:16:13Vermont charges then you know well
2:16:15statistically that makes things less
2:16:17likely to go my way because the more
2:16:20attorneys the more crimes are involved
2:16:22in this the more likely it is that one
2:16:23of the states is going to get fed up and
2:16:26say we're charging you
2:16:29know we've already we've already
2:16:31demonstrated to you what we can do and
2:16:32explain how it works for
2:16:35more because I don't think Vermont
2:16:39Vermont could take as long as they want
2:16:42to take they charge you know they can
2:16:44take their case as long as they want to
2:16:45take it and you
2:16:48know what happens then
2:16:51to your goal to your goals what happens
2:16:53to your goals if I assume that puts me
2:16:55in limbo until they get their crack at
2:16:58me Le I've heard of that happening
2:17:01before I don't know so do do you want
2:17:04that of course I don't want that you
2:17:06already know what I want well that's why
2:17:08I guess we're just miscommunicating that
2:17:10because I thought that's what I
2:17:12understood it and that's why we offer to
2:17:14you this plan to control how things
2:17:17progress
2:17:18with Dr and
2:17:21just using New York as the newor state
2:17:24right so we we've got a way to to
2:17:26control
2:17:28things now if if we all say that's not
2:17:31going to work do what you want Vermont
2:17:33then we don't control they're going to
2:17:35take as long as they take ver mon you
2:17:37know
2:17:40and I'm sure they'll be talking to New
2:17:42York then and what that then we know
2:17:44then we don't control it right right no
2:17:48I I accepted the fact that we don't
2:17:51control none of us control what happens
2:17:53in real L well I think we I thought or
2:17:56you do I thought this letter that they
2:17:58sent was uh was was a pretty amazing it
2:18:01was good it was pretty amazing thing and
2:18:03and we you know we really worked at this
2:18:05and they're with us but if they go away
2:18:08then they do whatever they got to do as
2:18:10long as that takes they don't really
2:18:11care what Israel's opinion is and then
2:18:13New York comes to them their neighbors
2:18:15and said neighbor you know we got a
2:18:16problem in New York uh we're Vermont
2:18:19Vermont says well your problem is our
2:18:20problem we're sympatico together we all
2:18:23got problems and this is now Israel has
2:18:26no control and and that's what I was
2:18:28trying to Avo based upon what you told
2:18:30me from Geo you've been honest about
2:18:32your goals but now I'm like well right
2:18:35why are we misunderstanding the the fine
2:18:36print in that letter is that at their
2:18:38directive they can reassume control at
2:18:42your directive you I mean you all you
2:18:44have to do is say well he's Israel is
2:18:46not doing us any more information do
2:18:48what you got to do did you expect
2:18:50something friend you're like oh there's
2:18:52nothing else we can do I don't know what
2:18:54I expect I mean there's nothing else we
2:18:55can do we can't make they would never
2:18:57sign something they would never agree to
2:18:58it I'm never going to agree to something
2:19:00that says I understand that so so I know
2:19:04I don't have any rights in this
2:19:06situation I all I have is information so
2:19:08now you're upset with me that I want to
2:19:10control the information no I'm not I'm
2:19:12not upset you know upset with you I said
2:19:14I'm I started here saying you know it's
2:19:16more depressing and yeah there's
2:19:17frustration but I mean I I there's going
2:19:20to be a lot of frustration before this
2:19:21is all over but I mean there it's
2:19:23already been years of frustration for a
2:19:26lot of people so they're going to have
2:19:28to learn to live with it for no that's a
2:19:30different that's a different issue I the
2:19:32frustration and the depression is based
2:19:34upon what you getting what you want and
2:19:36I'm thinking we giving Israel what what
2:19:39he
2:19:40wants on his time frame and I just
2:19:43explained to you what I foresee would
2:19:45happen if if the cooperation breaks down
2:19:47on the
2:19:48carers and we just said we don't want
2:19:50want that because we don't want that
2:19:52Vermont to take over and take as long as
2:19:54they want and New York and do whatever
2:19:56we don't want that so what are all the
2:19:59there two choices it seems like yeah I
2:20:02don't I don't know how like I say that's
2:20:04one of the issues I'm waiting to hear
2:20:07back on is what is the most
2:20:10likely path that Vermont would take um
2:20:14because obviously I've got other
2:20:16problems right now so
2:20:18uh so I don't know what their
2:20:21hypothetical timeline could be if they
2:20:23get fed up and decide to go their own
2:20:25way on that I don't know that I'm not a
2:20:29lawyer
2:20:32so
2:20:34um yeah like I said I'm sure there could
2:20:36be a whole range of things that could
2:20:39happen with that the information that
2:20:41I've already
2:20:41given Well normally normally you know
2:20:44state prosecutions or other Federal
2:20:46prosecutions don't
2:20:49move that quickly
2:20:52so right we know that if veran charges
2:20:54it's going to be a lengthy process and
2:20:59they're going to get in touch with New
2:21:00York New
2:21:01York's you know have their inut about
2:21:04what Vermont does as well and their
2:21:06neighboring states and they work
2:21:07together and they're going to
2:21:09say hey Israel had his chance Alaska had
2:21:14his
2:21:15chance they said they they said that
2:21:17they were moving forward you know this
2:21:19is not this is I'm just trying to what I
2:21:21foresee related to the couriers Etc
2:21:24that's that's alternative b as far as
2:21:26I'm concerned alternative a was
2:21:28following one the path we've been caught
2:21:31on so doing nothing is a choice doing
2:21:35nothing is basically saying I choose
2:21:37alternative B which is the longer
2:21:41Road and the less
2:21:43control and I think A and B is goes hand
2:21:46in hands for for law enforcement I told
2:21:48you many times what option b for law
2:21:50enforcement is and I know you say we'll
2:21:52be back and you may be right but at some
2:21:55point in time when people see that
2:21:58there's an impass then they're going to
2:22:01say well let's try it he may be right
2:22:03maybe maybe we're not going to find
2:22:05anything but we have to look wouldn't be
2:22:07we would wouldn't be doing due diligence
2:22:08if we didn't try with the investigative
2:22:11leads that we do have so so that your
2:22:14be and I know you you I mean the B is
2:22:18just is huge public media and public
2:22:22wise
2:22:23and I just don't want to damage any
2:22:25relationship that we have if we have to
2:22:27go with plan
2:22:29B well I mean if that's your only option
2:22:32I not I mean it's not our only option
2:22:35right now right we have plan a we
2:22:42thought yeah
2:22:50I mean you realize that you realize that
2:22:52this isn't going the way this isn't just
2:22:54going like a normal investigation going
2:22:56there certain things we would do in this
2:22:58type of situation that we're not doing
2:23:05right you know all those are very public
2:23:08and very unpleasant and
2:23:40well I mean yeah you're right
2:23:46I I mean if that's if that's what it's
2:23:48come down to it's like either I give you
2:23:51information today or you go your own way
2:23:53with it that's what it's come down to do
2:23:55what you got to do because I'm not I'm
2:23:57not giving up any more information until
2:24:00I find out what's going on it's a couple
2:24:03more
2:24:05issues when do you foresee that kind of
2:24:07thing happening well if it doesn't
2:24:09happen this week then there's going to
2:24:12be another
2:24:14meeting so are you telling us that we
2:24:17should that we can next week sometime we
2:24:19can hold off and next week sometime re
2:24:22re re well address this issue yeah hear
2:24:27one way or the other next
2:24:44week I because that's something that we
2:24:47can I that I can go with and say he's
2:24:50got some issues that he's working
2:24:52through well the same issues that talked
2:24:55about last time was just nothing has
2:25:15happened I'm
2:25:20I'm hesitant to uh
2:25:25um tackle all the issues on my own I
2:25:28thought I was going to have
2:25:30some assistance but and if you want
2:25:33assistance you mean the judge everybody
2:25:34told you you you get whatever assistance
2:25:36you want and that's your business and
2:25:37we're not going to just be really I want
2:25:39to be really clear that is up to you and
2:25:41that's your choice to do that is we all
2:25:45want to make sure you have every
2:25:46opportunity to do that so if you want
2:25:48that do it and that's
2:25:50no I I I know that's clear we we we've
2:25:54just just been coming to you being
2:25:56honest about where we are in the process
2:25:57no one is laid down in ultimatum yet we
2:25:59trying to avoid that no I that's good
2:26:02that's what I want to avoid too it's
2:26:04just I just thought if I came in here
2:26:07and you can see we're not but I mean
2:26:09we're telling you that you're smart
2:26:10enough you know that it is what it is
2:26:12what I'm telling you what he's telling
2:26:13you is reality of this you know I mean
2:26:16we're
2:26:18not yeah
2:26:30oh I
2:26:31was well what do you want to talk about
2:26:47today I just been thinking that hypothe
2:26:56ially best route for me to give you all
2:27:00the information and you might
2:27:07be kind of like a a last minute kind of
2:27:10thing so I'm not around for the
2:27:15aftermath well do you think that's
2:27:18realistic do I think it's realistic ISC
2:27:20I don't
2:27:22know seems to me like that would kind of
2:27:25be my call not it's real I mean like I
2:27:28said if ront goes
2:27:30forward it's not going to be your call
2:27:32or our call Vermont does and they don't
2:27:34they don't have any reason
2:27:36to to move at your
2:27:39pace yeah I know you know what I mean
2:27:41and right now we've been working
2:27:43together uh so well I know I kind of
2:27:46doubt m is going play that game I doubt
2:27:49they're going to I mean I'm telling you
2:27:50from even the US attorney's perspective
2:27:52down there I doubt they're going to play
2:27:53that game that says uh you know we're
2:27:55going to we're going to move forward in
2:27:57Vermont really quickly on the cers make
2:27:59sure that gets all wrapped up and uh you
2:28:01know we're going to give him what he
2:28:04wants uh and then but because we think
2:28:06at the last minute he's going to tell us
2:28:08everything or or I guess that my opinion
2:28:11on that would be with it the issue with
2:28:13doing it something like that would be
2:28:16would we get would you be able to
2:28:18provide us with enough information
2:28:20that we need and wouldn't would that
2:28:23leave some type of doubt the way being
2:28:25done like that rather than upfront
2:28:27cooperating every step of the way and
2:28:29giving us the the details that we need
2:28:31to make the closure rather than right
2:28:34there at the end when all we're getting
2:28:37is you know maybe a name in a place and
2:28:38we might not be able to complete the the
2:28:41closure um all the way and there might
2:28:43be some I don't know it's just food for
2:28:46thought would there
2:28:48be right no I I understand what you're
2:28:50saying my concern isn't so much with
2:28:53that
2:28:55I my concern is about keeping it
2:28:59things under wraps for the duration
2:29:03of my
2:29:05incarceration however long that may be
2:29:08and
2:29:09uh if I have to do that by giving out
2:29:13little information at a time and you
2:29:16know continuing to work with you or
2:29:19whoever else if I if it seems like
2:29:21that's going to keep working then that's
2:29:23what I'll do you know even if it
2:29:32means more drama that way I guess but
2:29:37um but yeah it's it's still better than
2:29:40the
2:29:43alternative we I think we should just
2:29:46take a break minutes to think about a
2:29:49couple things
2:29:53coffee can the bathroom yeah
2:30:47all right Israel just picking up where
2:30:49we left off um cuz you said something
2:30:52that I want to respond to I think the
2:30:53last thing you
2:30:55said and then I also want to respond to
2:30:57one of the something you said earlier
2:31:00about hey at the last minute this idea
2:31:03that that seems to be very interested in
2:31:05at the last minute you could just tell
2:31:06us everything right at the end of all of
2:31:09this with The Courier you could just
2:31:10tell us everything so let's use The
2:31:12Courier case and fromont you know as we
2:31:14just explained we have option A A and B
2:31:17we're looking at that a is we you know
2:31:19getting
2:31:20information we keep provot on board we
2:31:23get some more information not everything
2:31:24but we get some more information we keep
2:31:26on board and we keep moving forward on a
2:31:28free timely basis right with the courage
2:31:30option b we we all kind of felt was you
2:31:33know we lose control overmont because we
2:31:35don't get anything about New York
2:31:38Vermont moves forward and you know us
2:31:41attorney's office down there and Vermont
2:31:43says look he's not cooperating we're
2:31:46going to charge him federally the state
2:31:47says he's not cooperating we're going to
2:31:49charge state was that's uh that's kind
2:31:51of what what could happen on Plan B
2:31:54right yeah I mean am I just just are you
2:31:57with I take the word for it yeah okay
2:32:01well you know if you think that that I'm
2:32:02telling you something that that I that's
2:32:04what I believe are two possible options
2:32:07here with the
2:32:09couriers um the the moving forward
2:32:12option or the you know stalling out
2:32:15option in which case for M mov for
2:32:17federally
2:32:18State um
2:32:20now the state of Vermont does not even
2:32:22have a death penalty but they would have
2:32:24an interest as you can tell from their
2:32:26office you know but for your cooperation
2:32:30and our working with them the state of
2:32:33Vermont would want to charge you right
2:32:36that so the state of ront charges
2:32:40you it's going to be a lengthy
2:32:42process to go forward with so that's why
2:32:46I mean option b is is a planky process
2:32:48and and and they're not no one's going
2:32:50to agree either the US attorney's office
2:32:52in vermal or the vermal state
2:32:55prosecutors are not going to agree to
2:32:56any kind of a situation where they say
2:32:59hey great we're going to move things
2:33:00along quickly and get get Israel
2:33:02sentenced you know whether he wants the
2:33:04death penalty whether he want his life
2:33:06in prison whenever we're going to go
2:33:07ahead and move forward with that um with
2:33:10the hope that at the last minute he's
2:33:11going to give us all this information
2:33:13right they're just not going to enter
2:33:15into that kind of
2:33:17agreement I just wanted you to know my
2:33:19thoughts on on that I don't speak for
2:33:21the US attorneys offic Vermont I don't
2:33:23speak for the state prosecutors on that
2:33:25issue but you know I think the reality
2:33:26is they're not going to sort of just
2:33:28move things for quickly there with the
2:33:31promise with the idea of the promise for
2:33:33you that you'll they'll earn everything
2:33:34that sh we're going to want that first
2:33:36right like basic negotiating things so
2:33:40that does that make
2:33:43sense yeah I mean
2:33:47um the part you left out is that with
2:33:49option A is that if I continue to give
2:33:52them information is it's they can still
2:33:55do whatever they want as far as charging
2:33:57look I don't they don't have to give me
2:33:59their word on anything I know they don't
2:34:01but they have and they've given me their
2:34:02word and so I think what you said was
2:34:04very insightful like well if you don't
2:34:07want to move things quickly but you
2:34:08don't want them to be really slow the
2:34:09quickly is in my opinion you tell us
2:34:12right the slow is he tell us nothing
2:34:15what you said at the very end when we
2:34:16took a break was hey if I have to give
2:34:18you a little little bit you step along
2:34:21the way to keep things
2:34:23moving that's that's in the middle
2:34:26things will move they won't move as
2:34:28quickly they won't move as slowly but
2:34:29they'll move so I'm asking you then
2:34:31today to give us the name of the person
2:34:33in New York has a a little
2:34:36something it's you half a card you can
2:34:38rip in half you give us the name we move
2:34:41things forward no it's not half a card
2:34:43it's
2:34:44pretty well I you give us a name today I
2:34:47think we'll be back here next week you
2:34:48won't you won't have PE of that nobody
2:34:51will heard about
2:34:55it well and it keeps things moving you
2:34:57know we'll be sitting here next week you
2:35:00won't even heard anything we'll sit in
2:35:01the week after you won't have heard
2:35:02anything about it okay because we're
2:35:04going to live up to our end of things
2:35:06that's what was our commitment to keep
2:35:08that to follow your goals you you here's
2:35:11what can happen today you give me the
2:35:14name I write it down I don't ask any
2:35:16more questions we all have some lunch
2:35:19talk about whatever you want to talk
2:35:20about you have a cigar uh you know we
2:35:24can talk about the weather what's going
2:35:26on in Anchorage you know whatever I just
2:35:28write down the name you have blunch you
2:35:29have a cigar well I mean it sounds
2:35:31tempting but no I'm not I'm not good the
2:35:33name I'm not using any
2:35:37names until I until I find
2:35:41out what my options are that that's fine
2:35:44you do what you need to do we'll see if
2:35:46it changes next week I mean I think
2:35:48we'll be in the same position next week
2:35:50where we are today and so by not acting
2:35:52we're going towards Plan D that's all
2:35:54you know it's not it's not a threat or
2:35:56anything like that it's just saying you
2:35:58know I made plan a path a and path B
2:36:02right by doing nothing we kind of we're
2:36:04kind of making a choice no I know it's
2:36:06reality you know I I I I I think you can
2:36:09take control of the situation today and
2:36:12let me write down that name that that's
2:36:14the control you have write down the name
2:36:16and you see that next week nothing
2:36:18different is happening is now there it
2:36:20has an impact to you it's just allowed
2:36:22us to stay on path day it's a decision
2:36:26that you can make today I think what I
2:36:30appreciate what you're saying but here's
2:36:32what I think we should do is set up a
2:36:36meeting probably later next week meeting
2:36:39just like
2:36:41this if I don't get the information that
2:36:44I
2:36:45need by I don't know like iess said the
2:36:48next couple days then what's going to
2:36:50happen is you're probably going to get
2:36:53an email of a different sort of meeting
2:36:54that we're going to have okay that's up
2:36:57to you so you're telling me you
2:37:01know we're going to meet we'll come to
2:37:04meet with you next
2:37:06week yeah I mean I I assume you're going
2:37:09to want to do that regardless but I'm
2:37:11saying that
2:37:12um yeah it's been I mean what what was
2:37:15the last time I was over here it was
2:37:16like a week ago when I was and I had
2:37:18already
2:37:20and trying to get yeah so I
2:37:23mean like I say if it doesn't if I don't
2:37:25get the information I need this week
2:37:28like the Avenues that I'm trying to get
2:37:30it then then obviously that's not
2:37:33working
2:37:35and I'll do something else that's up to
2:37:37you that's your choice no I yeah you
2:37:39know I'm just saying it's a little bit
2:37:43uh from my perspective it's a
2:37:50there's several different things going
2:37:52on trying to trying to keep them all
2:37:55related in my head and then uh trying to
2:37:59keep everything moving on all of them
2:38:01separate from each other but still in
2:38:04the same direction is not an easy task
2:38:06apparently
2:38:09so but
2:38:14um yeah that's that'll at least give
2:38:17me some more time to get the information
2:38:20that I
2:38:24need in the meantime you
2:38:28um I I had requested this from other
2:38:33avenues but you had mentioned that there
2:38:34was news from
2:38:37Vermont was there a press release done
2:38:39or something I know that they were
2:38:40coming up on the anniversary for their
2:38:42disappearance and that's what we wanted
2:38:44to tell you and what want me you to say
2:38:45tomorrow is the anniversary how is it
2:38:48and um so right now we have nothing to
2:38:50take to them so what I wanted to
2:38:53accomplish today is is to to be able to
2:38:55tell them we got a name I'm not going to
2:38:57tell them the name I wanted to say
2:38:58Vermont we got a name stick with this we
2:39:01know it's anniversary you got a lot of
2:39:02pressure tomorrow right stick with us
2:39:04well that was a concern I had because I
2:39:06know that that's like the media makes a
2:39:09big deal out of anniversary oh and
2:39:11they're going to be they're all over
2:39:12them I know that and that's what ran is
2:39:14wanted to know I don't need to give ran
2:39:15the name I just need to tell them trust
2:39:17me he gave me the name and not going to
2:39:19know the name I'm not going to give it
2:39:20to them they don't have any need to know
2:39:22but that gives them a reason to to stand
2:39:25firm well they already have a reason I'm
2:39:28not I'm not going to give them that just
2:39:29so they have another reason well you're
2:39:31not giving it to them you're giving it
2:39:33to me well
2:39:38you're well that's what we wanted you to
2:39:41know about so you know look oh I trust
2:39:44me I'll don't know about it I don't care
2:39:46it doesn't matter how many miles away I
2:39:48imagine if my name pops up I'm pretty
2:39:50sure
2:39:52it'll immedate he as I imagine it'll
2:39:55hear about it
2:39:57here what's what's veron's reason to
2:40:02stand
2:40:04firm I don't know you said they already
2:40:07have a reason so I'm curious to what
2:40:09that reason is well I don't know un
2:40:13common sense I
2:40:15guess I'm sure that at this point they
2:40:18want to
2:40:21give themselves a pad on the back but
2:40:23frankly they don't deserve one so you
2:40:25know that's their reason they're being
2:40:29honest with themselves they would know
2:40:30they couldn't give themselves a pedal
2:40:32for that they're going to say hey if
2:40:35Israel was being honest with himself he
2:40:37would
2:40:38just tell you guys and move this thing
2:40:41along that's you know their reaction too
2:40:49know I'm probably more honest with
2:40:51myself than anybody
2:40:54else is it are you you're just looking
2:40:57hot I me are you looking to hide the
2:40:58information is that what I'm getting now
2:41:00you're looking just hide
2:41:02it well look I'll get it to you
2:41:06especially if there's something in it
2:41:07for me but
2:41:11um it' be better if uh my name wasn't
2:41:15attached to it from here till eternity
2:41:18or whatever
2:41:21we've told you before we don't have a
2:41:23problem with that we've demonstrated
2:41:25repeatedly that uh we have the ability
2:41:28to greatly influence that right no I I
2:41:32for now yeah I agree with you I I mean
2:41:34yeah I think we can keep I I think I
2:41:36could probably tell you everything today
2:41:38and since being the case that it is I'm
2:41:42sure we could probably keep stuff under
2:41:44wraps for what a year two years whatever
2:41:47I'm not worried about that
2:41:49so what's the
2:41:52deal I'm worried about after that
2:41:54eventually my name is going to be
2:41:56attached to it
2:41:58so if there's a way that
2:42:03uh I can protect myself from that and
2:42:08still get you guys what you need then
2:42:11I'm going to do
2:42:13it I look
2:42:16I I don't need to be punished for the
2:42:19other things that I haven't talked to
2:42:20you about yet
2:42:24because yeah all these other they're not
2:42:26going to they can't prosecute a dead man
2:42:28so it's like what right but do you think
2:42:31anyone's going to really do you think
2:42:32Vermont charge say Vermont charges
2:42:34people the courage do you think they're
2:42:35really going to give you the death
2:42:36penalty knowing that there's more things
2:42:38out there do you think they're going to
2:42:40say ah you know see I know I you're in a
2:42:43catch 22 I already [ __ ] up you're in a
2:42:47catch 22 and we're offering you uh you
2:42:49know we're offering you what is I think
2:42:51your best bet that's your call buddy but
2:42:55you know you're in a catch 22 because
2:42:58Vermont us attorney's office Vermont
2:43:00state isn't going to rush forward and
2:43:01give you what you want knowing that
2:43:03there's more information right they
2:43:05can't give me what I want anyway well
2:43:08you
2:43:09know they could charge you federally in
2:43:11Vermont with the with the car jack
2:43:13anding the careers they haven't done
2:43:15that because they've trusted us that
2:43:17we're coordinated they're not going to
2:43:19rush out there and give you some
2:43:20sentence whatever it may
2:43:23be while you're still while there's
2:43:26still information out there about Sol
2:43:28crime or something we're offering what I
2:43:30so that's your Catch 22 I wanted to make
2:43:32sure you understood that right no I yeah
2:43:36it and and we're trying to work on the
2:43:38timing the control of the media the
2:43:40control you control how the story comes
2:43:42out this is your opportunity you control
2:43:44the story you control the timing you
2:43:46control the media I'm not timing I mean
2:43:48moving it quickly
2:43:49the other alternative B is takes forever
2:43:54possibly um you don't
2:43:57control any of the rest of the stuff you
2:44:00you may be right they never get it but
2:44:01then they're not going to just move
2:44:03forward knowing with the
2:44:05unknowing the middle ground I think is
2:44:07what you suggested at the end you give
2:44:09me a name I write it down you have lunch
2:44:11in the cigar and me all me again
2:44:14whenever you want to me
2:44:15again and you're not going to hear
2:44:17anything about it between now and then
2:44:19for
2:44:50no
2:44:57no is Washington a better
2:45:00State
2:45:09no no I uh
2:45:21it's better we tackle one thing at a
2:45:23time but I don't want to I don't want to
2:45:25go into that New York trip anymore
2:45:29until until I find out what's going
2:45:39on and yeah I'm also a little concerned
2:45:45about what they say tomorrow be see but
2:45:50it comes out they they're able to resist
2:45:53the
2:45:54temptation do you want to have any
2:45:57control on it I don't have any control
2:45:59on that I I could tell you everything
2:46:01today and they could still do say
2:46:03whatever they want yeah in theory that's
2:46:05possible do you think they would do you
2:46:07think that if I have no idea do you
2:46:08think if I go to them call them after we
2:46:11get their meeting and I
2:46:13say you got piece of information they
2:46:16got a name I'm going to tell you what it
2:46:18is but he's living up to his end of it
2:46:21you think they're really my suspicion is
2:46:23that no they wouldn't say anything about
2:46:24it if they if you told them not
2:46:27to I'm just
2:46:33saying realistic point of view there's
2:46:36you know there's no guarantees there's
2:46:38no gu I agree with you look there's no
2:46:40guarantees we don't know what the media
2:46:42snipping around and what they they know
2:46:45we we can't guarantee that we've never
2:46:46been talking about guarantees here we're
2:46:48just working the best we can do yeah I
2:47:01know and you know once we go creep
2:47:04towards Plan B plan a might not be
2:47:07little be more difficult to get back
2:47:11on
2:47:17well that's so
2:47:21that's not really my call that's more
2:47:24your
2:47:25call we respectfully disagree we think
2:47:28it's your
2:47:36call I can't do anything with the name
2:47:39doesn't other than by the good willll of
2:47:42other people who can say he continuing
2:47:44to we're getting we're getting a little
2:47:46bit we're moving in the right direction
2:47:47we stay on plan
2:47:49other than
2:47:50that can't do anything with
2:47:54it they're not going to find any they're
2:47:57not going to find the body from what you
2:47:59told
2:48:06us no I'm
2:48:12not if you're not worried about it it
2:48:15sounds like you have nothing to lose
2:48:17well by you you
2:48:20it's true the body name doesn't give you
2:48:22the body yeah a lot of other things I'm
2:48:25asking you for the most minimal thing
2:48:27that I think keeps us go the right
2:48:29direction we can meet again next week
2:48:32yeah you know that's fine I like I said
2:48:34I already told these guys today when
2:48:36they pick me up on that nothing has
2:48:39actually nothing has changed since last
2:48:41meeting on my end I don't have any new
2:48:44information you know nothing has
2:48:46happened that I wanted to happen so okay
2:48:49we're just asking you from our
2:48:50perspective something we can do on other
2:48:52crimes uh we've done it and from our
2:48:54perspective I'm talking to you about
2:48:56other crimes we're standing still and
2:48:57sliding backwards and and it's kind of
2:48:59as I said let's just call it depressing
2:49:01and frustrating but that's what about
2:49:03other crimes you make your decisions we
2:49:06told you what we thought could help
2:49:08today I told you
2:49:11that
2:49:14yeah help somebody I think I think it
2:49:17would help you
2:49:20no in the long run you're you're in a
2:49:24catch too about
2:49:25that yeah I know I
2:49:28know but that doesn't mean I'm not going
2:49:30to try and manage it we're giving you
2:49:33the manag
2:49:37approach I
2:49:58yeah let
2:50:00just questions right
2:50:06now all right well in the interest of U
2:50:10you know not wasting nobody's time and
2:50:12stuff uh you said you wanted to meet
2:50:14late next week um you want to pick a day
2:50:17right now Thursday Friday both days are
2:50:20late next week you have
2:50:21preference
2:50:24no today THS
2:51:01it's
2:51:03it's morning Israel morning how you
2:51:10doing all right
2:51:15considering we're going to do our normal
2:51:16advisement
2:51:21um I have to read your right first thing
2:51:24I want to ask you is we didn't interrupt
2:51:25anything over at the
2:51:27jail no meeting with anything you have
2:51:30the right to remain silent you
2:51:31understand that yeah anything you say
2:51:33can and will be used against you in the
2:51:34court of law you understand that yep you
2:51:36have the right to talk to a lawyer and
2:51:37have him present with you while you're
2:51:39being questioned you understand that yep
2:51:41if you cannot afford to hire a lawyer
2:51:42one will be appointed to represent you
2:51:44before any questioning that you wish you
2:51:46understand that y you can decide any
2:51:48time exercise these rights and not
2:51:49answer any questions or make any
2:51:50statements you understand that yes okay
2:51:54also um I understand that you have
2:51:56standby Council for crimes other than
2:51:59coning Mr cner and Miss Welsh and
2:52:02possibly M Mr would you like any of
2:52:04those here today no and we're not here
2:52:07to talk to you about the the onlyy case
2:52:09just crimes other than that okay
2:52:14yep okay I think uh they had some things
2:52:16to discuss with you obviously um
2:52:19you know they wanted to chat with you
2:52:20about some things and then I wanted to
2:52:21kind of talk to you about where we are
2:52:23on the on the Vermont thing yeah I
2:52:25didn't um they wouldn't let me bring my
2:52:28copy of the letter so there's definitely
2:52:30some things we need to go over okay I've
2:52:32got a copy who wouldn't let you jail
2:52:35yeah
2:52:37like stuff around with me you guys want
2:52:40to chat about what you need to chat
2:52:42about I can paper you need to mark up
2:52:45the letters that would sort of like you
2:52:46have some requests on it no we I mean we
2:52:49need just go through it I already went
2:52:51through
2:52:55it extra copy for you too yeah um I just
2:52:59want to let you know I know you weren't
2:53:01real concerned about the boat but I told
2:53:03you when you left last time that I give
2:53:05you a list of what was actually taken
2:53:07from the boat and what they do is they
2:53:09print out a receipt they don't have the
2:53:10actual receipt this is just an internal
2:53:12back I can show you on here what they
2:53:15took um tot 19 items see but some of
2:53:19those are swots they're not actual
2:53:21things so unknown materials these I'm
2:53:24assuming are were
2:53:27like pieces of thing or like stains that
2:53:30made in blood or something like that
2:53:31that they just that's based on where
2:53:33they were taken from the engine area um
2:53:36fibers and fragments same kind of thing
2:53:39um I don't know what that
2:53:42is ask about that all of unknown
2:53:44material I guess is
2:53:47probably hopefully the lab will know
2:53:49that's why you call it a ball of unknown
2:53:52material maybe you could shed some light
2:53:54on that if you know you know it's a ball
2:53:55of unknown material I have to see
2:53:58it um they had hos gold fragment and
2:54:02other material twice down two different
2:54:04things were
2:54:05taken
2:54:07there um rope anchors with the line
2:54:11other rope a swab and that swab was
2:54:15taken from SE push screws these were all
2:54:19in the back area by the carpeting or in
2:54:23that area the back by the motor there's
2:54:25hair as
2:54:29well more
2:54:33slabs yeah same kind of thing such as
2:54:36that piece of carpeted wood by the or
2:54:38the trim that they took the build pum as
2:54:42well more rope and they took the table
2:54:44sies I think they had already probably
2:54:45had these before we had talked last time
2:54:47so those were already all right I see so
2:54:49so um that's what they took and then
2:54:51I'll get eventually I'll get a actual
2:54:54receipt paper feed Mark that you can
2:54:56have questions about any of this
2:55:00no
2:55:02okay copy of this okay so mark up
2:55:12[Music]
2:55:16okay so um while she's making copy
2:55:19anything you want to discuss
2:55:21generally any what anything you want to
2:55:23discuss generally about the letter about
2:55:26any concerns you have well um yeah uh
2:55:32one of my main concerns right now is
2:55:37uh trying to get a handle on what the
2:55:39process is going to be if this goes to
2:55:43CCU they approved one or all my cases
2:55:47for death
2:55:49penalty it comes back and then my
2:55:53understanding at this point is it goes
2:55:54to a judge and they decide make a
2:55:57decision as to whether or not to pursue
2:55:59it from
2:56:00there uh again like I said you know I
2:56:03can't give you legal advice but here's
2:56:04my understanding of the process um in
2:56:07terms of the notice itself it gets filed
2:56:11all right with the court right after it
2:56:13gets filed with the court um then you
2:56:16know obviously you're free to ple guilt
2:56:18in your main case or go a trial or the C
2:56:20The Courier case what whatever you were
2:56:22it and uh then let's assume talking
2:56:25about The Courier case they would be a
2:56:26sentencing
2:56:28set and at the sentencing I think there
2:56:30would be you know either like I said
2:56:32there's an option to to both sides agree
2:56:35to do a judge sentencing or jury
2:56:38sentencing and then that would go to
2:56:40that and then ultimately the jury of the
2:56:42judge is the one who would have to
2:56:44impose the death penalty right for life
2:56:46in prison Okay so
2:56:49okay so the it goes to the judge or the
2:56:51jury sentencing either
2:56:53one at the sentencing it's a public
2:56:57hearing yes either way it has to be a
2:57:00public hearing I think um yeah I mean Mo
2:57:03most of it you know now there's
2:57:04exceptions
2:57:06for um public hearings where we can seal
2:57:09parts of them and part
2:57:12of the uh you know the methods we used
2:57:16to kind of close portions of sentencings
2:57:18in the past is to apprise the court of
2:57:22cooperation efforts on behalf of the
2:57:25defendant um if we've got a legitimate
2:57:28law enforcement basis to close the
2:57:31public
2:57:33out we can do that now in order to do
2:57:36that we have to you know get approval
2:57:38from Main
2:57:39Justice um but you know it's happened in
2:57:43the past it's happened virtually in
2:57:45every case that I've had Co operators
2:57:49and usually they don't want their
2:57:51cooperation
2:57:53known um because it could endanger
2:57:58them okay well my concern is uh like I
2:58:03said from the beginning there's certain
2:58:04aspects of the things that I've done
2:58:06that I don't I would prefer never became
2:58:09public
2:58:11um
2:58:15and from what I've been hearing
2:58:18lately at something as serious as a
2:58:21death penalty
2:58:23hearing they want to review all of the
2:58:25evidence before they make a decision
2:58:28whether it's
2:58:29jury jury
2:58:32or and obviously in everything we've
2:58:36discussed there's a lot of that I mean
2:58:38if they're going to review all the
2:58:40evidence then that's primarily going to
2:58:43be interviews that we've done in which
2:58:46that information is going to be in that
2:58:50evidence MH and so if it's a public
2:58:54hearing it's going to be all that's
2:58:55going to become public and that's what
2:58:58exactly what I didn't want from the
2:59:00beginning you know I
2:59:04um certain aspects of this that you know
2:59:07yeah there's no way around it but you
2:59:09know as far
2:59:11as different things that were done with
2:59:14the bodies
2:59:15and sexual assault stuff that type of
2:59:18stuff I just don't I I don't see you
2:59:22know if that has to be part of hearing
2:59:27then I would we got to figure out
2:59:31something
2:59:32different I got sort of two possible
2:59:36solutions I've been thinking about um
2:59:39when you get to that point you know one
2:59:42with respect to stuff that you're
2:59:44working with us on like you know other
2:59:46crimes other you know
2:59:48bodies um and they're still
2:59:50investigating to corroborate their
2:59:53confessions for those murders you know
2:59:56we can certainly seek approval to
3:00:00close that part of the second C to the
3:00:04extent you're talking about those all
3:00:06right now I don't know whether or not
3:00:08guarantees whether or not main Justice
3:00:10would grant that um the second portion
3:00:14of it is you know
3:00:18we control the evidence that we
3:00:22present so government's got to present
3:00:25the
3:00:26evidence and you know maybe there's some
3:00:30way kind of address both of our concerns
3:00:34here by circumscribing by limiting the
3:00:37amount of stuff that's introduced
3:00:39into report that so I've been to with
3:00:43that
3:00:44idea um now obviously is a catch 22 to
3:00:48that right right the worst things you
3:00:52know appear the jury or the judge the
3:00:54more likely it is you're going to get
3:00:56what you want right in context of The
3:00:59Courier case right
3:01:02thanks
3:01:08um but I think that there
3:01:13is maybe a way around that but in order
3:01:16to kind of get around that
3:01:18what we'd have to do is we'd have to
3:01:21have at least the basic
3:01:24information on all the murders you
3:01:26committed so basically it's not like hey
3:01:29you know we're sort of going with
3:01:30quantity rather than quality of the
3:01:33murders so and if we can corroborate
3:01:38those you know I think there may be a
3:01:41way to kind of get you what you want but
3:01:43also um you know obviously we get what
3:01:45we want then too that have to be part of
3:01:49the
3:01:49negotiation these are just thoughts I've
3:01:52had but right here here's the problem
3:01:54with that scenario is like you said I
3:01:56might get what I want you definitely get
3:01:59what you
3:02:01want well I mean look you know I think
3:02:05you said it before in other contexts of
3:02:08you know if people hear the things
3:02:10you've done you know I don't think any
3:02:12jury would have any doubts about what
3:02:15they do I can't promise what a jury is
3:02:18going to do I can never do that right
3:02:20but that was that was me operating under
3:02:23the maybe somewhat naive assumption that
3:02:26as long as I was giving you all this
3:02:27information there was no reason for it
3:02:29to become
3:02:31public whereas if I I already know that
3:02:33if you go out and you find out this
3:02:35stuff on your
3:02:36own all kinds of stuff becomes public
3:02:39well maybe all kinds of stuff I mean it
3:02:40would have to be a numberous thing I
3:02:42mean right now the way on the way we're
3:02:43going now you know let's assume we don't
3:02:46ever strike a deal on the carer thing
3:02:49um you know yeah then I think it does
3:02:53become public some of this stuff then
3:02:54we're forced to kind of go your way and
3:02:56and you're for forced to go you know
3:02:58your your own way we've got to go our
3:03:00separate ways and we've got to you know
3:03:01try our cases I understand that
3:03:05um you know I think now is the time to
3:03:08sort of strike a deal that would
3:03:09Encompass all your
3:03:12activity and then part of that broker
3:03:14some deal about you know what we we can
3:03:17introduce what we
3:03:20can well this is another problem this is
3:03:23why I was pushing
3:03:25for a different type of me this week but
3:03:32um you know obviously there's other
3:03:34things going on that I don't I don't
3:03:36even know
3:03:40what and I know we can't talk about it
3:03:43but that's an issue for me so that that
3:03:47other thing that are going on in process
3:03:49and I don't I don't know what's going on
3:03:52so yeah I mean you know obviously can't
3:03:56help you with that that's between you I
3:03:57know I know and that's a problem so I
3:04:00you know I don't know what else to say
3:04:02about it other than that but in regards
3:04:05to the Courier thing I went through that
3:04:07letter several times and there's nothing
3:04:11first of all I was pretty ticked off
3:04:14just thinking back about the way things
3:04:17played out with the whole Vermont thing
3:04:19in general um I remember specifically
3:04:22before we even had you know before I
3:04:24gave you the location of that house or
3:04:26anything I was like I'll give you the
3:04:28location of this house but I don't want
3:04:31the locals involved I don't
3:04:33want there I I I I didn't see any reason
3:04:37to bring any anyone back there in that
3:04:40area into the fold that so to speak as
3:04:44to what was going on because they didn't
3:04:46have any clue any
3:04:48you know next thing I know there's like
3:04:51articles in the paper like this big dig
3:04:53site going on you know there there was
3:04:56just there was a lot more discreet ways
3:04:57to handle it you know so you you got
3:05:00your information you went they went
3:05:03right away to the lead investigator on
3:05:05the case
3:05:07and you know my name got leaked out
3:05:10somehow way back then and then you know
3:05:13months later you dig and you dig you
3:05:15never find anything aside from what I
3:05:17gave you in the first place and then my
3:05:19name's attached to it
3:05:21anyway let me tell you a little bit
3:05:23about at least my perception how things
3:05:25work there and I'll tell you a little
3:05:26bit about the realities of law
3:05:28enforcement you know uh if the FBI just
3:05:31kind of went in there and simply said
3:05:33like Gang Busters hey locals you stay
3:05:35out of it we're handling this we're not
3:05:36telling you what's going on that would
3:05:38be a political nightmare for them okay
3:05:40given that they had the information and
3:05:42another agency was investigating that
3:05:44they couldn't do it I think we've talked
3:05:46about that new numerous times since then
3:05:48that Vermont was a test case and you
3:05:52know I think we've learned a lot from
3:05:55Vermont and we understood that the way
3:05:58that was handled back then um you know
3:06:01we'd have to avoid in the future to keep
3:06:04both sides happy if we were going to get
3:06:06continued
3:06:08information um so you know that that's
3:06:11why that's the whole reason that we
3:06:13initially came up with you know this
3:06:15letter is to handle it a little bit
3:06:17differently and get Vermont to sort of
3:06:20get on board with
3:06:21us so you know we're successful in
3:06:24getting the letter obviously some things
3:06:26happened that you know we were
3:06:27disappointed with too about your name
3:06:29getting leaked out yeah you know we're
3:06:30not we're not happy about the way
3:06:33that in fact you know there was a rift
3:06:36between us and Vermont for a while and
3:06:39we weren't giving them information
3:06:42because of the fact we heard that it got
3:06:44weaked and so we were you know angry at
3:06:46them we had like a video conference
3:06:49session with all the investigators from
3:06:50Vermont and all the prosecutors Vermont
3:06:53and us and kind of hash things out and
3:06:55said you know obviously there's been
3:06:57some problems they agreed that you know
3:06:59look you know they're on board with us
3:07:02um they've obviously got to consider the
3:07:04needs of the family but you know I think
3:07:06we hashed things out and you know things
3:07:08have worked much better especially like
3:07:10recently you know I mean to be able to
3:07:12control that press conference on the
3:07:13couriers in light of the possible
3:07:15settlement of other crimes I I think was
3:07:17a pretty remarkable feat that we're able
3:07:19to accomplish but what I'm trying to do
3:07:22here is all right obviously we didn't go
3:07:24with this that was the way to kind of
3:07:25where they even said in this initial
3:07:28letter that they would defer to us as to
3:07:32what charging would happen and that was
3:07:34a way to kind of put the lid on things
3:07:36and kind of keep going quietly all right
3:07:38I understand you need go with this so
3:07:41you know what we're trying to do now is
3:07:43just simply revisit that another way
3:07:46obviously that opportunities pass Us by
3:07:49but there's still this opportunity on
3:07:51the table and you know I think the
3:07:54longer we wait on it the more
3:07:57problematic it becomes because they're
3:07:59you know I've been avoiding calling
3:08:00Vermont since you know this week I just
3:08:04basically said hey uh you know he's he's
3:08:06obviously getting some advice on the
3:08:07letter and I haven't heard from them
3:08:09since Monday or Tuesday and I had called
3:08:13because I know the next question is
3:08:14going to be all right where are we on
3:08:15the letter because we have to do
3:08:17something so you know this letter is an
3:08:19effort to try
3:08:21to you keep everybody in line keep ver m
3:08:25in line get you to some extent what you
3:08:27want and get us what we want I know it
3:08:30doesn't get me anything I want it
3:08:32doesn't get me anything that I'm not
3:08:33going to get anyway you you just said
3:08:36Vermont is chomping at the bit now they
3:08:38want to see me indicted for this in
3:08:40their
3:08:41jurisdiction whatever I
3:08:44mean the whole deal originally was that
3:08:47I would be charged federally with it and
3:08:49now you're ready to just hand it over to
3:08:50them and let them charge me so I don't
3:08:53care you know if they want to charge me
3:08:56I'm not it's pretty clear at this point
3:08:57I'm not going to get what I want at
3:08:59least not I'm not going to get a
3:09:01straight answer on what I want you know
3:09:04and I I apparently I misunderstood the
3:09:09way the whole process works from the
3:09:11beginning you know so all the
3:09:13information that I've given you now is
3:09:15probably going to get out anyways
3:09:18so first there's a way to kind of avoid
3:09:21that right now and that's what we're
3:09:22working with you on that's why we're
3:09:23negotiating with you but in terms of
3:09:25yeah letting them you know have the case
3:09:28that's not really Our intention but what
3:09:30it is is the reality of the situation is
3:09:34you know they understand that you know
3:09:37when they initially were involved that
3:09:38you were cooperating then you you know
3:09:40you decided to slow it down and you know
3:09:43right now they can charge you and put
3:09:47pressure on the feds to give over the
3:09:49evidence and that's the reality of the
3:09:51situation yet can we sit there and say
3:09:54no Vermont we're not giving you whatever
3:09:56evidence we uncovered with respect to
3:09:59you know the couriers yeah it's
3:10:01conceivable but for the people who make
3:10:03the decisions and how this would blow
3:10:05back on them
3:10:08realistically they couldn't do that they
3:10:10couldn't you know they would put
3:10:12political pressure on saying hey the FBI
3:10:14is holding back evidence and it's double
3:10:16murder and we can't process Ute this guy
3:10:18because they're not plann fair um that
3:10:20that's that's the reality of the
3:10:21situation and it's the situation we're
3:10:23try to avoid in other jurisdictions I
3:10:26mean we're trying to do that but you
3:10:28know we're we're you know it's like
3:10:30hurting cats at this point and I think
3:10:32you know we go in there with an
3:10:34agreement to other jurisdictions and
3:10:36simply
3:10:37say all right look you know he he's
3:10:39cooperating he needs your assurances
3:10:41that you're not going to do these things
3:10:42that if Vermont still has the option of
3:10:45doing I think we're a lot better off and
3:10:48you know your your desire for discretion
3:10:52on some of these things about what comes
3:10:53out in court you know we can negotiate
3:10:56with those things and we can try to
3:10:58figure out and strike a balance where
3:11:00you know you would get what you want but
3:11:01we get what what we want I mean are
3:11:04there any guarantees on what a jury does
3:11:05no I can I tell you what the judge is
3:11:07going to do no but that's the nature of
3:11:09the work I mean that's you
3:11:11know that's just the way you know the
3:11:14law works I can't you know even
3:11:17couldn't uh you know guarantee any jury
3:11:20you know no matter how strong the
3:11:22evidence what they do with it oh I know
3:11:25you know so all I can tell you the
3:11:27biggest issue of all but the more
3:11:29compelling I can tell you in my
3:11:31experience the more compelling the case
3:11:33is for the jury the more likely it is
3:11:37the more the stronger the evidence the
3:11:38more likely it is that you get a
3:11:41favorable
3:11:43verdict so you know yeah you can go you
3:11:46know before the jury in the Curry's case
3:11:48and and say yeah you killed these two
3:11:50people and um you that would be the
3:11:52evidence but at
3:11:55sentencing you make a much more
3:11:57compelling case if you know you say all
3:11:59right there's also you know eight other
3:12:02people that you killed and you provided
3:12:05evidence on those and you know by virtue
3:12:07of the
3:12:09agreement you know we would be
3:12:11circumscribed from telling the jury
3:12:14about that I mean that's one way to
3:12:16handle
3:12:18you know I I think the problem is you're
3:12:20s of between rock in a hard place you
3:12:22don't want to give the jury all the
3:12:23information because you know I don't
3:12:25care if the jury has the information I
3:12:27just didn't want it all over the media
3:12:29all over the public
3:12:31right well I mean that's goes back to
3:12:34sort of the but apparently that's not
3:12:36possible so can I see that letter there
3:12:38there's something else in there I want
3:12:39to go over I think the
3:12:45uh like I said there are long
3:12:47enforcement exceptions to keep things
3:12:49sealed in from the public if we're still
3:12:51investigating it you know we just need
3:12:53to get approval of that's something we
3:12:56can put in that letter that we' seek
3:12:58aove remain Justice to keep things and
3:13:01and in this and I'm pretty sure in this
3:13:02letter all we're asking
3:13:04for um anything else is who and
3:13:09where the detail yeah I know I I see
3:13:12that so you get to you you control that
3:13:16information by like telling us just that
3:13:20right but problem is with some of
3:13:25that it's going to give you more than
3:13:28enough that if this doesn't work out in
3:13:30my favor you're going to keep playing
3:13:33connect the dots and I going to keep
3:13:35getting bounced around from one
3:13:38jurisdiction to the next it doesn't with
3:13:41it no it
3:13:43says prior to any plea agreement
3:13:49I provide the total number of victims
3:13:54jurisdictions which in turn is going to
3:13:58give
3:14:00you well it doesn't say names or dates
3:14:02but or even specific locations it just
3:14:04gives us the jurisdiction that's just so
3:14:06we can get their agreement all we that's
3:14:09that's why that's all we're asking for
3:14:11before
3:14:13that it's purposely set up that way to
3:14:15protect you right but the problem
3:14:17problem is
3:14:18is I already know that you know where
3:14:21I've been for the last few years so it's
3:14:25not so you're not giving up anything so
3:14:27you're right that's not a lot of new
3:14:28information it might just corroborate
3:14:31some of the stuff that we have and it
3:14:32and it gives us the ability to go to
3:14:33them and get them on
3:14:35board or walk away if we're not willing
3:14:37to get on
3:14:43board what I see happening with this
3:14:50is
3:14:52that you're wanting more information up
3:14:59front I still have no idea what's going
3:15:01to happen with the information I've
3:15:04already given
3:15:05you and admittedly you don't know what's
3:15:09going to happen with the information
3:15:11I've already given except that in that
3:15:14letter if you don't get what you want
3:15:17that's when the information stops right
3:15:19yeah it's condition stop until you start
3:15:21finding
3:15:22stuff well it's conditioned on at least
3:15:25the Attorney General coming back and
3:15:28saying hey we're going to seek what you
3:15:30want
3:15:32right I mean look you know you've
3:15:34identified you know some issues that
3:15:36you're concerned about but you know I
3:15:38don't think there's anything you can't
3:15:39overcome here you know it's there's no
3:15:41reason to get sort of frustrated about
3:15:43things it's you know we can work it all
3:15:44out you know you just identify know we
3:15:47can work it all out I just don't see
3:15:50what the big time crunch is that you
3:15:52want all this information right now and
3:15:54I still don't know what's going to
3:15:56happen with the stuff I gave you on Day
3:15:58One MH but I think the the problem is we
3:16:01need that information to kind of keep
3:16:03you know Vermont's on board rather than
3:16:05have Vermont go public and once Vermont
3:16:07goes public Vermont already went public
3:16:10it didn't really get picked up they had
3:16:13one reporter who had inside information
3:16:15she didn't share her Services as far as
3:16:16I know clearly other stations didn't
3:16:20feel comfortable linking it to to you uh
3:16:23certainly you know they were calling and
3:16:25trying to get up here they added that
3:16:27disclosure they they couldn't they they
3:16:29couldn't conf it confirm it locally so
3:16:32that all they did was run what right
3:16:34what they have no I get that but I mean
3:16:38you you you've already said whether I'm
3:16:41charged with this federally or locally
3:16:43in Vermont I'm going to be charged with
3:16:45it and soon right that's their plan
3:16:48that's what they want that's what they
3:16:50want and that's what we're trying to
3:16:51kind
3:16:52of avoid at least cuz you said you
3:16:55didn't want to get dragged back to
3:16:57G so I don't see how they can do that
3:16:59anyway when I'm still facing charges
3:17:02here they'll drag you back eventually I
3:17:04mean what they do is and what's happened
3:17:06in other cases is they Lodge the the
3:17:08detainer you finish up here then you go
3:17:10to Vermont maybe then they lend you out
3:17:12to the state court there and that goes
3:17:14through the process which is what you
3:17:16said you didn't want and that's where
3:17:18we're headed and and the other thing is
3:17:20and I know you know this is that you the
3:17:23way typical law enforcement
3:17:25investigation would work on this you
3:17:26have to admit that the way this I know
3:17:28this seems slow to you that this process
3:17:30has taken a long time but for us and the
3:17:34people that are that are in charge of us
3:17:37what they
3:17:38want they know that there's potentially
3:17:41up to 10 or 11 victims so there's seven
3:17:44or eight that we don't know where where
3:17:46they're at and those kind of things so
3:17:49what we're getting the pressure to do is
3:17:53find those other people and so what you
3:17:56don't want us to do is to use
3:17:59conventional police methods to do it and
3:18:01you're already using conven we're not we
3:18:03haven't gone
3:18:05to Media we haven't gone to local media
3:18:08places and said Israel Keys was the here
3:18:12on April 9th of April 10th of 2009 he
3:18:17committed this Tupper Lake bank robbery
3:18:19he killed somebody in in this area and
3:18:21they're buried here and we need the
3:18:23Public's help in finding out if they saw
3:18:25him or his vehicle and this was the
3:18:26vehicle and this is the license plate
3:18:27number that's what that's what a typical
3:18:30police investigation would do we know
3:18:32you don't want that because the first
3:18:33one of those that we put out gets on you
3:18:37you're right you're right we don't
3:18:39because we we want this cooperation that
3:18:41we have and that's what's that's why
3:18:42we've been delaying this but the
3:18:44pressure is getting increasingly with
3:18:46Vermont we're getting calls from Vermont
3:18:48also since they ran their story The
3:18:50Colonel of the State Police there is
3:18:52getting calls from other families in
3:18:54that area who now think Israel Keys
3:18:56could have killed their family members
3:18:57because he killed somebody else there
3:18:59and so that's what we're looking that's
3:19:01what's going to happen in every state if
3:19:04we use conventional police methods we
3:19:07want to keep it as quiet as you do
3:19:09because we want the information from you
3:19:12we know it would be the most accurate
3:19:19I mean that's just the reality of it I I
3:19:21mean I know you know that well I I know
3:19:24I but you know as well as I do that you
3:19:27can put my name and face out there and
3:19:29dates out there all you want but we're
3:19:31talking about stuff that's happened at
3:19:32least two years ago now I know I know I
3:19:35realize that but that that's the only
3:19:37other way we can do it right I don't
3:19:39know I probably but I'm just saying
3:19:42that I'm getting a little bit ticked off
3:19:45at what's happening with the information
3:19:48that I've already given you you know and
3:19:51I see no reason at this point to keep
3:19:54giving you more information cuz I don't
3:19:55know what's going to happen with that
3:19:57once it's once you have it once they
3:19:59have it these different jurisdictions
3:20:01it's their information yeah I understand
3:20:03that but then I
3:20:06lose you know I lose
3:20:08it and you guys and then you know
3:20:11Vermont New York
3:20:14whoever they they do whatever they they
3:20:16want with it and like you say I you know
3:20:19it the whole the whole process is I'm
3:20:23getting I'm getting a little bored with
3:20:25it so I you're you know annoyed with
3:20:27that the way that was saying quite
3:20:28frankly I'm annoyed with you because you
3:20:30had in your power a way to stop it right
3:20:33here and I came up with this plan and
3:20:35you could have done it and if you did it
3:20:38we wouldn't have had a problem in
3:20:39Vermont last week because they we would
3:20:41have had the authority to say they had
3:20:42already leaked my name to the the time
3:20:45that that letter was out they had
3:20:46nothing else and you know theyve leaked
3:20:49it but they had absolutely zero until
3:20:51they had the corroboration of the press
3:20:52conference which by virtue of this
3:20:54letter we would have had more sway into
3:20:56telling him no you can't do that because
3:20:59he's cooperating and here's what he's
3:21:00already done and he's lived up to his
3:21:03end of the party so that's the reality
3:21:05of the situation you blame us for the
3:21:08situation I'm blaming you blame you I
3:21:10told you from the get-go before I told
3:21:12you where the freaking bodies were left
3:21:15I told you that I didn't want the locals
3:21:17involved and the first thing you do is
3:21:18make a big scene and do a big freaking
3:21:21archical dig right alongside the main
3:21:23road I come on you've agreed in the past
3:21:27if we're being honest here that we've
3:21:29handled that situation as quietly as
3:21:31possible you to whatever extent we could
3:21:34we shut people's mouths and the only
3:21:36problem was probably one cop that didn't
3:21:39get the message early on and that was it
3:21:43because no I think you need to back up
3:21:44to your recordings
3:21:47cuz I I I remember the conversation I
3:21:50said I didn't want the locals involved
3:21:52in and I know now from I mean I talked
3:21:54to the guy I talked to the lead
3:21:55investigator not only did you involve
3:21:57him in that but you took him to New York
3:21:58to dig up the guns you've had him you
3:22:00had him involved from the very G well
3:22:03the only reason that guy was involved in
3:22:04the conversation is we were sort of
3:22:06planning on going with this at the time
3:22:07if you
3:22:09remember okay that was bu you went and
3:22:11dro the guns before that letter was
3:22:13written yeah yeah we were trying to I
3:22:16mean that lead investigator like I said
3:22:19politically and maybe you know the FBI
3:22:20can explain to you you can't just simply
3:22:22walk in there and say well you told me
3:22:24could I I don't think we did I mean back
3:22:27up to recordings yeah you know I'll go
3:22:29look at it and I'll listen to it and I'd
3:22:31be happy to kind of share it but I think
3:22:33what we said was the FBI would lead and
3:22:36handle the case and that's what's
3:22:38happened no you said you would control
3:22:40it yeah and to the whatever extent we
3:22:42could we did in fact I'm saying I'm not
3:22:46happy with the extent that you've
3:22:47controlled it you haven't controled it
3:22:50at all and we realize that we can see
3:22:51that we're not happy either I mean but
3:22:54look I know it was more than one thing
3:22:56that caused the whole thing to get out
3:22:58of control I know that if the house had
3:23:00just still been there and it all just
3:23:03been neat and wrapped up in a couple
3:23:05days without doing a freaking landfill
3:23:07dig yeah it would have made it easier
3:23:09but that's not the fact is there are
3:23:11different things that happen the way
3:23:12they happen and
3:23:16now I don't know what's going to happen
3:23:18with all this information I've given you
3:23:19and you know I'm not just talking about
3:23:21the
3:23:22couriers well that's why we're here in
3:23:24negotiated with you you know look you
3:23:26have stuff you want we have stuff we
3:23:28want yeah can we promise you absolutes
3:23:31no I know just like you can't promise US
3:23:33absolutes that we're going to find these
3:23:35people so who knows whether or not we'll
3:23:37ever be able to kind of you know give
3:23:39closure to their families I mean it's up
3:23:41in the air for us too you know we're
3:23:42just both doing our best to try to come
3:23:44to some sort of resolution yes it's not
3:23:46ideal you know we have different
3:23:48interests but I think there's a way to
3:23:49meet those in the
3:23:50middle that will avoid a lot of the
3:23:53things that you don't want and at least
3:23:56try to get us started on the things that
3:23:58we want no guarantees tomorrow and
3:24:00either we have the ability to control it
3:24:03better now I told you the other day back
3:24:04in April when you told us about the
3:24:05careers we had no idea what we were
3:24:07dealing with we didn't know there were
3:24:09seven or eight more bodies we didn't
3:24:12know we didn't know a lot and we have
3:24:15the ability now I to control it
3:24:20better had we known that back then and
3:24:22were able to communicate that to the
3:24:25people in Vermont I don't think it's
3:24:27illegal happened because I think that
3:24:28that that person would realize the
3:24:30gravity of the situation I don't think
3:24:32that they did I think they thought the
3:24:34end of it was their case that was the
3:24:36only one that mattered to
3:24:38them and clearly it wasn't and I'm sure
3:24:41that person well that you know that's
3:24:43fine what's done is done I'm just saying
3:24:45from right now now from my
3:24:48perspective there's this letter doesn't
3:24:50offer me anything I know that you know
3:24:53you have pressure on you to find these
3:24:56other people but frankly they'll
3:25:00keep and I and my and and I still don't
3:25:03know like I say what's going to happen
3:25:05with this information I gave you on day
3:25:07one well let's you know let's talk about
3:25:10it I would love to but unfortunately
3:25:13other parties chose not to be here so I
3:25:16mean look you
3:25:20know in your discussion of other crimes
3:25:23I mean I know we mentioned this to you
3:25:24all the time that you know you can have
3:25:27Council pres for for these discussions
3:25:30brother the crimes you know I know we P
3:25:32lip service to it but I mean you were in
3:25:33judge Bon's courtroom when we did this
3:25:35whole thing you know basically said you
3:25:39can if you want to stop talking and you
3:25:40want to kind of invite Council here then
3:25:43you have you can invite them and they
3:25:44have to come I don't have any problem
3:25:48speaking for myself the problems I have
3:25:50is with the legal procedure as to what
3:25:52happens with this stuff in the courts I
3:25:54already know what happens with it on the
3:25:56ground I'm just saying I don't know what
3:25:58happens with with all this information
3:26:01like that that whole thing about the
3:26:03whole investigation and interviews being
3:26:06made public for the sentencing hearing I
3:26:09didn't even I did not know that I was
3:26:11led to believe that if I gave you
3:26:14information then we controlled all that
3:26:19information you still have an
3:26:21opportunity to control that
3:26:23information and you know agreements can
3:26:25be struck but they have to be struck now
3:26:28in advance because if we get too far
3:26:29down the line here's what's going to
3:26:31happen like I said we identified Vermont
3:26:34as you know a problem because that was
3:26:37you know happened at a time we didn't
3:26:38know what we were dealing with I wrote
3:26:40that on the on the that flip pad I
3:26:42showed you a while ago Vermont we got to
3:26:43deal with Vermont I know it's going to
3:26:45be a problem all right now I know it's
3:26:47to the point where yeah it's a reality
3:26:50there going to be a problem if we take
3:26:51control of the situation you know I
3:26:53think we can avoid that problem you can
3:26:56then
3:26:58negotiate how what the extent of what
3:27:01you tell
3:27:02us and to some extent you know what what
3:27:05comes out in
3:27:06court but we you know we've got to talk
3:27:08about it and you've you know we've got
3:27:10to kind of go forward because what's
3:27:11going to happen here is let's assume we
3:27:13don't strike any deal and here's what I
3:27:15see happening and again I saw this
3:27:17months ago and I'm just going to tell
3:27:19you in the future what's going to happen
3:27:20is they're going to go ahead and say all
3:27:22right well he doesn't want to enter into
3:27:23a global settlement on the other crimes
3:27:26we're going to go ahead and and and
3:27:28charge him okay once they charge him it
3:27:31doesn't
3:27:32become once they charge you it doesn't
3:27:34become one reporter saying Israel ke did
3:27:36this it becomes all right the government
3:27:37saying he did this and then that becomes
3:27:39sort of a National Trans Israel K is
3:27:43killing three people traveling around
3:27:44the country killing people where else
3:27:46has we been what kind of shows can we do
3:27:49and then that in turn puts pressure on
3:27:51the local FBI all right they're going to
3:27:53come to to Jolene and say all right well
3:27:56what did you do uh you know what have
3:27:57you done to kind of make sure you've
3:27:58investigated all those crimes oh you
3:28:00didn't put media out you know you're
3:28:02sitting there talking to Israel Keys
3:28:04you're trusting him and you didn't do
3:28:06the necessary things that we see fit
3:28:08that's exactly what's going to happen
3:28:09and they're going to say you go do it
3:28:11and it's not going to be up to to Jeff
3:28:13Bell or Jo go to Frank R or Kevin pis
3:28:16like I If they think that's going to
3:28:17help then they're idiots because like I
3:28:19say we're talking I've given you all the
3:28:22information that
3:28:24any first of all none of no media
3:28:27exposure even if I hadn't given you all
3:28:30the stuff on the more recent ones would
3:28:32have helped I don't think it would have
3:28:33helped I don't know it maybe wouldn't
3:28:35help but get your name out there and
3:28:37assist connected with things which is
3:28:39what right that's why I gave you that
3:28:41information but I mean now you're
3:28:43talking about wanting to put it my name
3:28:46in the media which is the one thing I
3:28:48didn't want
3:28:50from want to but you're it's going to
3:28:53happen is what you're saying I'm
3:28:54concerned it's going to happen that's my
3:28:56concern as I look forward if we can't if
3:28:59we can't get some if we can't get
3:29:00another Avenue for doing it I don't see
3:29:03that the FBI we I don't see that we have
3:29:05any other choice on how to investigate
3:29:07it I mean uh yeah you could just hold
3:29:10off until I see what happens with the
3:29:12information I've already given you and
3:29:13then you still have an open line of
3:29:16communication if you do that I have no
3:29:19what what incentive do I have if you if
3:29:21you after all the information I've given
3:29:24you you run to the media and put all
3:29:26this crap out there for my family and
3:29:29everybody else to see and then at some
3:29:31point down the road or we still don't
3:29:33have enough to find out for sure that he
3:29:36did this that and the other thing let's
3:29:38go back and talk to him you really think
3:29:39I'm going to feel like giving you any
3:29:41more
3:29:43information from our perspective you
3:29:45have to see it's to the other side of
3:29:46the coin you know what guarantees do we
3:29:48have that you're going to give us the
3:29:49information you don't have any
3:29:51guarantees exactly just like you don't
3:29:54so we're trying to reach an agreement
3:29:55here where we both have some assurances
3:29:57that we're Bound by in an
3:30:00agreement so we're Bound by you don't
3:30:02have any guarantees but it's pretty
3:30:04likely you're going to get the
3:30:06information why do you say that I mean
3:30:08uh cuz it looks like I'm stuck here for
3:30:10a
3:30:11while well what incentive would you have
3:30:13to give out the information I don't know
3:30:15I'm sure things will come up right now
3:30:17you guys got me on pencil
3:30:21restriction pencil
3:30:24restriction I don't know what is that
3:30:26J that's that's to get you to stop
3:30:29eating pencils I
3:30:37guess look I think you
3:30:39know what we're trying to do is look
3:30:42it's obviously a situation where you
3:30:45have interest we convening interest you
3:30:47know like I said things are negotiated
3:30:49like that every day and I think we can
3:30:52negotiate something like that but you
3:30:54know we need a little bit more to do it
3:30:58you know to avoid Vermont doing what
3:31:01they're going to do to avoid you know
3:31:03what the you the FBI nationally is going
3:31:06to come down and say we should have been
3:31:07doing in this case um you know that's
3:31:11that's our interest but I don't see what
3:31:13you you keep talking about what
3:31:14Vermont's going to do but but if you've
3:31:17already said that you're I'm going to be
3:31:19charged with this federally if they
3:31:22don't I don't know Fally or state they
3:31:24but one or the other soon right that's
3:31:27what well I mean look I've been holding
3:31:28them off and I can ask them to hold off
3:31:30a little bit longer I that's their plan
3:31:32they've said that in the press
3:31:33conference I'm just saying originally
3:31:35this was this was all all this
3:31:37information on The Courier case was
3:31:39supposed to become part of the other
3:31:41information that I gave you prior to
3:31:43that and now it's all of a sudden become
3:31:45separate thing and now you want more
3:31:47information to add to this we're just
3:31:49trying to control you know what was what
3:31:52happened at the very outset when we
3:31:54didn't know the full scope of things
3:31:56let's just deal with that problem all
3:31:57right maybe we can't you know solve
3:31:59every single problem here but we're
3:32:02happy to kind of try to solve Vermont
3:32:06and I think it would be minimal impact
3:32:09to you if we convince them that look you
3:32:12know he just pleads guilty here and then
3:32:14it gets wrapped up all globally in
3:32:16Alaska that would be probably have the
3:32:19least impact on you
3:32:23agree yeah you know this this whole
3:32:26thing is already a
3:32:31huge you we're just trying to solve the
3:32:34the they never even found the
3:32:36bodies at least if they had found the
3:32:38bodies
3:32:41then it's just you know every it there's
3:32:45no way around it now you charge me with
3:32:47the
3:32:48couriers everybody knows now as soon as
3:32:51you charge me with that that I gave you
3:32:53all the information you have cuz you
3:32:55didn't find any on your own even after
3:32:57they knew they were at the landfill
3:32:58they're like oh we didn't find them but
3:33:00they were definitely murdered and we
3:33:01definitely have the person who did it
3:33:04and now pretty soon we're going to tell
3:33:06everybody who did it and the person who
3:33:08did it is Israel keys so how did they
3:33:10know that well you must have told them
3:33:12so
3:33:14whatever how can we avoid we can't avoid
3:33:17it now it's already happened I mean the
3:33:20majority of it's already happened the
3:33:21only thing left is you to come out and
3:33:23say yeah the Israel Keys is the one
3:33:25who's going to be charged for it so and
3:33:27they didn't say that they didn't say it
3:33:29yet I'm just saying I'm going to be
3:33:31charged for it you said soon either
3:33:34federally in Vermont or in Vermont and
3:33:39that's can is there a way we can kind of
3:33:41at
3:33:43least keep the lid on things and
3:33:46any longer I mean and and maybe you know
3:33:48I know you have another situation to
3:33:49work out but give us something that buys
3:33:51us
3:33:52time I don't how do I know how much
3:33:57time first of all not buying any time
3:34:00because they already did a freaking news
3:34:02story on it and you you've already said
3:34:06they're chomping at the bits of charge
3:34:08you now so you know but if we can get
3:34:11something from them and simply just say
3:34:13hey you know hold off work for some
3:34:15other of you know deal I mean look you
3:34:18know obviously our preference I think
3:34:19yours is too to wrap all this up you
3:34:21know globally with all the other times
3:34:23but well that's only if I can get what I
3:34:26want out of it and that's looking less
3:34:29likely all the time especially
3:34:32since I still have no
3:34:34idea it's been freaking months since we
3:34:38first started talking and like I say I
3:34:42still have no idea what's like in the
3:34:44broad scope what is going on or what is
3:34:47going to happen or how long each of
3:34:49these things is going to take I have no
3:34:50idea I haven't been able to get a
3:34:52straight answer on it from day one
3:34:54so I can tell you in terms of the Cur
3:34:56okay because all I did I laid it out
3:34:58here you set the deadlines and we put
3:35:01deadlines in here you know at least for
3:35:04your identification we put more
3:35:06deadlines we can sort of work on you
3:35:08know the the language we can work on how
3:35:11much there's no deadline I mean the only
3:35:13deadlines are
3:35:16are events that happen they're not dat
3:35:18well I mean I said there's a couple
3:35:19weeks from the events and then there's
3:35:21you know seeking expedited
3:35:24review and so that's you know what I've
3:35:26been working on it's not like you know
3:35:27we've been sitting here just you know
3:35:29calling back to Washington DC and asking
3:35:31how can I screw Israel
3:35:32Keys I've been trying to kind of you
3:35:35know pulling my hair out to figure out a
3:35:37way to kind of resolve this
3:35:39dispute and settle everything where you
3:35:42know you have the best chance of getting
3:35:43what you want and we have the best
3:35:45chance getting what we want so I've been
3:35:48dealing yet like you said you know
3:35:49Vermont what happened you know we had to
3:35:52do over again maybe we have done it a
3:35:54little differently but we didn't know
3:35:56the full scope of things and you
3:35:58know you know it is what it is we can't
3:36:01rewrite that what we can do is we can
3:36:03change the the future as to what happens
3:36:06and we'll change you know we can change
3:36:07the future as to these other things
3:36:09because you know right now your concern
3:36:13is that you go to court in the C and
3:36:15then all these details come out that you
3:36:17don't necessarily want to come out right
3:36:20with everything that I told okay with
3:36:22everything all right we keep going the
3:36:25way we are and not agreeing on different
3:36:28things then yeah I think stuff like
3:36:31that's going to happen so you're sort of
3:36:34between a rock and a hard place hey you
3:36:36know if if you don't agree globally you
3:36:38can't stop the flow of information
3:36:40Vermont they'll use whatever they'll
3:36:42exert whatever influence and they can
3:36:44kind of use your confessions against you
3:36:47right now before that case is charged
3:36:50you're in a position of
3:36:52power where you can negotiate all right
3:36:56well here's the deal I'll give you this
3:36:57other stuff but here's what I you know
3:37:00want out of it and your information is
3:37:02you know valuable now I mean it's
3:37:04valuable to you it's valuable to
3:37:09us it's only valuable to me as long as I
3:37:12still have it I mean I don't there's
3:37:15nothing but the value is that it will be
3:37:17in in the agreement and we're bind to
3:37:19the agreement yeah and the value is also
3:37:22you know that they would you know they
3:37:24would use it at capital crimes to
3:37:25justify whatever the decision they have
3:37:27to make there confidentially so there's
3:37:29that you know there's other stuff in
3:37:31terms of limiting the amount of
3:37:33information you know yeah you know if we
3:37:36keep going the way we are then there's
3:37:38no agreements
3:37:39and who knows what people would
3:37:43use but there's a way now to kind of
3:37:46well you should know because you're the
3:37:47one I gave the information to at this
3:37:51point what I'm saying is that if we sort
3:37:55of strike a deal on it and it limits
3:37:57what we're you know we all bosses like I
3:38:00said they're going to tell us hey you
3:38:01know you have to present all this
3:38:02information in court to justify whatever
3:38:04decision the jury's going to make on him
3:38:08but if there's a binding agreement that
3:38:11says otherwise you know at least then we
3:38:13have a reason not to and then we we're
3:38:16bound not to do
3:38:20that and that could avoid the negative
3:38:24consequences that you're concerned about
3:38:27I mean I think there's a way to do it I
3:38:29just don't want to shut any doors here
3:38:32well I don't either but you know the
3:38:34problem is is I think you're trying to
3:38:36open all the doors at once and I still
3:38:38don't even know what's behind door
3:38:40number one so what do you mean open all
3:38:43the doors at once cuz I don't that's
3:38:45what but that's what this letter is
3:38:48asking for you want you know to an
3:38:51extent as much information as you can
3:38:54get and I still have no idea what's
3:38:57going to happen with it you know if if
3:39:00if this doesn't work
3:39:02out from my perspective then you still
3:39:05have your information and then I still
3:39:08have no idea what's going to happen to
3:39:09me so but I think upfront all we get is
3:39:12jurisdiction
3:39:15if I until youur because we are we
3:39:18already know the numbers right so yeah
3:39:22all all we get we're getting is where
3:39:24and not even a specific where just a
3:39:27jurisdiction eastern district not a year
3:39:30not anything
3:39:31else not a
3:39:34name it's just to
3:39:37fulfill your needs to kind to Simply say
3:39:40hey I don't want this to be a problem in
3:39:43get I want
3:39:48I mean if I'm going to give you any
3:39:50information I would just rather have
3:39:52something that's tangible that I get for
3:39:55it well I mean let's talk about it I
3:39:58mean again there are no promises but
3:40:02well you know it's not a promise then
3:40:04it's not very tangible well it's it's
3:40:06tangible and that we can you know assure
3:40:08you what we're going to
3:40:10do some of this like you said is out of
3:40:13our hands in terms of judging jury or no
3:40:16I yeah no I get that hey you know
3:40:18tangible is a letter from a jurisdiction
3:40:21that says I'm not going to prosecute you
3:40:23I mean that's tangible I'm I'm talking
3:40:25about something that
3:40:29says like I say my main concern has
3:40:32always
3:40:33been
3:40:36um the amount of information that's
3:40:39release that I have given you the
3:40:42details certain details um
3:40:46you know to
3:40:47me that's a major concern and I don't
3:40:52and and right now I'm still really fuzzy
3:40:55on you
3:40:57know if what I want sounds I don't know
3:41:01from what I've been hearing it sounds
3:41:03like it has to come out if if it goes to
3:41:08the death penalty sentencing phase it
3:41:10sounds like all that stuff is going to
3:41:11come out and I don't know it's just
3:41:15well I mean that's that's why and and in
3:41:17the meantime I'm also concerned about
3:41:19you releasing that
3:41:21information anyway as as whe whether
3:41:24you're doing it to piss me off or
3:41:27whether you're doing it to get the
3:41:28Public's attention or for whatever
3:41:31reason you
3:41:34know so let's control that Israel none
3:41:37of that has to come out or the stuff
3:41:38that you don't want to come out doesn't
3:41:40have to if we negotiate and and agree
3:41:44upon what that is
3:41:46right that's what I'm saying I so let's
3:41:48do that yeah so it's not you know look I
3:41:50didn't write that letter to say hey take
3:41:51it or or leave it I mean it's I gave it
3:41:54to you let you review it you know
3:41:57Agreements are negotiated all the
3:41:59time what would you like to see in there
3:42:02that's not no I don't I don't know I
3:42:05because I don't even know what's
3:42:06possible at this point all I know is you
3:42:08know I with all the
3:42:11information that I've given you
3:42:23um
3:42:31freaking so I me I I can come up with a
3:42:33plan C you know if you want and my plan
3:42:37C would look something like this you
3:42:39know Israel sort of controls the amount
3:42:42that comes out from the sentencing of
3:42:44the current
3:42:46you know we can agree upon what that is
3:42:47maybe you know sort of a you know brief
3:42:50statement of I killed this person and
3:42:52they are buried here right
3:42:56um you know in exchange for obviously
3:42:59we're going to do all those things in
3:43:00advance to get your assurances of non
3:43:02prosecution but then you're also
3:43:04controlling the extent of
3:43:06information that comes
3:43:09out so I mean I think you know look like
3:43:12I said it's Catch 22 you want to have
3:43:15the death penalty imposed upon you the
3:43:17more information the judge or Jury has
3:43:19the more likely that would be but you
3:43:22know I guess my plan see is well you
3:43:24know then at least we can kind of do
3:43:26quantity over hey you know details of
3:43:28what happened I think that you know
3:43:30would yeah but the time to do that is at
3:43:33sentencing not now mhm no well I mean we
3:43:36have to get started on it to at least
3:43:38why corroborate and get those assurances
3:43:40from those jurisdictions right otherwise
3:43:42if it comes out sentencing you get see
3:43:44this is the stuff I don't know I don't I
3:43:46mean how how the hell do I know we have
3:43:48to do it now for all I know you can
3:43:49charge me and then at the time of the
3:43:51sentencing you know we can say look
3:43:53there's this additional information I
3:43:55just don't see where I have any
3:43:57incentive to give you any more
3:43:59information right now because all this
3:44:00stuff is going to happen to me anyway I
3:44:02mean whether I'm charged federally or in
3:44:06Vermont I don't even understand how they
3:44:08can charge me in Vermont because F just
3:44:10told me this was a federal crime so
3:44:13that's that was the whole idea of giving
3:44:15you like the guns and the silencers and
3:44:17all that crap because I thought it was
3:44:19all going to be Federal and now you're
3:44:20say saying they want to charge me
3:44:22locally and I don't even whatever you
3:44:24know you're the lawyer
3:44:26so I think that nothing you know there's
3:44:29nothing that can't be overcome here all
3:44:32right and that's what I'm just trying to
3:44:33work
3:44:34on you know I just I'm trying to figure
3:44:38out a way where everybody gets closest
3:44:41to their goal I think we can do that oh
3:44:43you're going to get your goals
3:44:45you know I don't know
3:44:48that what do we just go back and going
3:44:50to show the guys hey don't worry Israel
3:44:52said we're GNA we're going to get what
3:44:53we want so don't worry guys I mean you
3:44:55know what they're going to say to that
3:44:58you know this way at least if there's an
3:44:59agreement we can show them I can go it's
3:45:02not just Israel saying it's an agreement
3:45:04that you know we have that you know he's
3:45:07going to get us close to our goals we're
3:45:09going to get as close as we can to his
3:45:10goals and uh you know hey we're both
3:45:13walking away leaving some at the
3:45:18table jurisdictions are walking away
3:45:21leaving something at the table I mean
3:45:23we'd have to get those assurances and
3:45:25you know that's something that's going
3:45:26to take time and that would prevent you
3:45:30from you know the detriment of getting
3:45:32dragged around which is something you've
3:45:34told us you want to avoid and I'm just
3:45:36trying to keep it together right I think
3:45:39another concern I have is is you know I
3:45:41give you this information things don't
3:45:44work out my way I still get dragged
3:45:46around how do you figure because because
3:45:49if plan a doesn't work then all these
3:45:52other jurisdictions are going to go to
3:45:53plan B and charge me separately for
3:45:56everything that I've done well plan a
3:45:58though before we even get to it would
3:45:59require them to write a letter saying
3:46:01they not say they wouldn't
3:46:04right it's not on here now I mean well
3:46:07we can put it on there I mean you know
3:46:09look that's that's a starting point it's
3:46:10a three-page letter not even like I said
3:46:13that needs to kind of go go into a more
3:46:16comprehensive agreement but you know
3:46:18don't get frustrated with the terms
3:46:20everything is you know you have some
3:46:21other concerns youve identify today we
3:46:24change the letter you know we we work on
3:46:26it but we don't just get frustrated and
3:46:29kind of walk away because that's you
3:46:30know that puts people in a corner we
3:46:32don't want to put you in a corner we
3:46:33don't want to be in a corner I think we
3:46:35both know that the best way to proceed
3:46:37on this is the way we have been
3:46:39proceeding and doing it as quietly as
3:46:42possible and I think you know I just
3:46:45that's my whole issue right now is it
3:46:46hasn't been very quiet there is already
3:46:50like
3:46:51freaking pages online about
3:46:57me I don't know they just speculating
3:47:00yeah but you know spec I don't know
3:47:02whatever speculation fact you does it
3:47:05really
3:47:06matter well you
3:47:08know I think it does I think he said
3:47:10that last time we met like yeah it's one
3:47:12reporter you reporting something it's
3:47:15not reality yet and you know I just am
3:47:18trying to negotiate a resolution that
3:47:20look it's going to control Vermont
3:47:22because you know we learn from it and
3:47:25it's going to help us avoid that problem
3:47:27in other
3:47:28jurisdictions you know we can control
3:47:33certainly was introduced like I said if
3:47:35there is a way where you're cooperating
3:47:37with us and we can represent the cour
3:47:39cooperating there may be a way to keep
3:47:41that cooperation under seal in in court
3:47:47yeah know that's what I'm concerned
3:47:50about but I can say
3:47:53there's The Courier case is not the only
3:47:56one I'm concerned about right
3:47:58now let's deal with those concerns on
3:48:01the other cases I that's why the
3:48:03whole you know aim of the planet is kind
3:48:06of get their buy off before we do
3:48:09anything and you know if if we can't go
3:48:12to them and simply you know have someone
3:48:15say Hey you know we just need your buy
3:48:16off on this we need the
3:48:21insurance it's difficult try to control
3:48:26things I I agree I you know I do think
3:48:28that you're going to f through on your
3:48:31end but I just I just
3:48:36think at this
3:48:39point I I'm kind of feel like I'm in the
3:48:43position where I've given you
3:48:45a certain amount of information none of
3:48:47it has or I shouldn't say none of it
3:48:51about half of
3:48:54what I thought we had an understanding
3:48:58on you know from the very beginning
3:49:01hasn't worked out in my favor granted
3:49:03you know some things haven't worked out
3:49:05in your favor but I
3:49:08just think at this point I just don't
3:49:13see what incentive I have to tell you
3:49:16anything else I've
3:49:20got I mean day to day I got day-to-day
3:49:25issues and you know we come over here
3:49:29and we sit in this room
3:49:32and I still don't know what's going
3:49:36on with like I say with with everything
3:49:41that we've talked about and
3:49:45in terms of the other case you obviously
3:49:46that's on you and and your lawyers to
3:49:48kind of do whatever you see fit in terms
3:49:51of The Courier case that's what I can
3:49:52control and that's what I can help
3:49:53control at least um to the extent that I
3:49:56can assure them that things are in the
3:49:58works you know look I can tell them and
3:50:01I have told them look I think he's going
3:50:03to cooperate and continue giving us some
3:50:05of this stuff in exchange for some of
3:50:06the you know for some discretion but you
3:50:09know they they don't know you and you
3:50:13know I don't expect any sympathy from
3:50:16anyone no not that's exactly the point
3:50:20come on let's be
3:50:22realistic I am being realistic they're
3:50:25not they're not sympathetic at
3:50:28all that's why they're saying well you
3:50:30know got a case on them I guess we can
3:50:33go ahead and charge him right exactly so
3:50:37what I'm trying to tell them is look
3:50:38that's maybe not the best thing to
3:50:40accomplish everybody's goals
3:50:47and if I have something that I can take
3:50:49to them I can maybe you know just put
3:50:52that
3:50:53off so that's all I'm trying to deal
3:50:55with like you know I think there's a way
3:50:57to kind of circumscribe and and limit
3:50:59the information in court I think there's
3:51:01a way to write that into the agreement I
3:51:02think there's a way to global settlement
3:51:05you know but if you want to put a
3:51:05Band-Aid on it as they call and let's
3:51:07let's try to deal with the Vermont
3:51:09situation I'm amendable to doing that
3:51:10too you know I yeah I don't know I don't
3:51:19um yeah there's just a lot of
3:51:28stuff what
3:51:30about the why is it why is it
3:51:35carjacking well you took their uh their
3:51:39put them in the car is that because it
3:51:41was their car not mine or something so
3:51:44it have been my cart would have been
3:51:45kidnapping or what yeah it depends on
3:51:49you know the method of kidnapping
3:51:52weird yeah kind of makes you seem like a
3:51:54gang
3:52:00M
3:52:04um so I'm just trying to think about
3:52:06Vermont maybe how
3:52:10to buy time over there
3:52:16I
3:52:20don't like they've already released
3:52:22enough information they're going to get
3:52:24hounded endlessly until they releas my
3:52:26name now so yeah but if I can you know
3:52:29give them something that kind of gives
3:52:30them comfort and gives the family
3:52:32comfort then you know maybe we can delay
3:52:36things there until at least you find out
3:52:39what's going on in your other
3:52:41situation I don't
3:52:45like I say it doesn't matter as far as
3:52:48Vermont goes everybody already assumed
3:52:49they did it so yeah but no one's really
3:52:52even my own family pretty much as soon
3:52:54as I did it so but one of your goals was
3:52:57to not get charged out there that was
3:53:00one of the things you told us the other
3:53:01day is that you didn't want to no I
3:53:03don't back there so that is something
3:53:05that we can still so ideally what would
3:53:08that what would that say you said there
3:53:09was some you know what how would you
3:53:12have that read what information would
3:53:13you have
3:53:15released about the I mean you can you
3:53:17control everything beyond the couriers
3:53:19because you're only you only tell us
3:53:21whatever you want to be released what
3:53:22what would
3:53:23you what would be acceptable to you to
3:53:27be released that you think would meet
3:53:28your goal in this
3:53:31case and Frank was talking about
3:53:41quantity well it sounds like right now
3:53:44now I don't even know if this is going
3:53:46to be charged by Vermont or by the feds
3:53:51and so what would you want and that to
3:53:54say regarding
3:53:57that see that this is the problem though
3:54:00cuz I don't even know what's possible I
3:54:03it does it it does talk about that if
3:54:05this this offer outs a proposal you
3:54:07compl guilty of the conduct in Alaska
3:54:09which would prevent you from having to
3:54:10go back face charges in Vermont either
3:54:13state or federal back there
3:54:15that would be the goal that's the goal
3:54:16of this letter is let's keep it here you
3:54:19know at
3:54:23least so that's I just don't understand
3:54:26why they even would want to charge them
3:54:28there in the first place makes no sense
3:54:30well you know it's it's also they have
3:54:32family members that they feel like
3:54:34they're close to and I'm just giving you
3:54:35you know their perspective they gave me
3:54:37they want to kind of make sure their
3:54:39family members see Justice and you know
3:54:42they feel like it's a Vermont crime
3:54:44Community needs to to know that type of
3:54:46thing and you know that that's their sen
3:54:49may not make sense to you but I
3:54:50understand it from a law enforcement
3:54:52perspective that you know hey you
3:54:54committed a crime there you should be
3:54:55held accountable there that's typically
3:54:57their take on things and it would
3:54:59probably be our take on things too if it
3:55:01happened in
3:55:02reverse all right
3:55:04but I think that there's there's a way
3:55:07to just be able to kind of at least put
3:55:09them off for a little while while you're
3:55:11thinking about other things and thinking
3:55:12about a global resolution we can work on
3:55:16but you know like I said um that's a way
3:55:20for us to get close to our goals if you
3:55:22want to a smaller brand and come up with
3:55:26one no I mean your goals at this point
3:55:30are pretty easy
3:55:33there's my goal is not to get charged
3:55:36for for
3:55:38theocc seven eight different times or
3:55:41whatever and that's a goal we can that's
3:55:43a goal we can help you with well that
3:55:47that addresses everything right no I
3:55:49understand that's that is something I
3:55:51still have in my control I mean
3:55:53apparently it's already out of my
3:55:55control I'm already going to get charged
3:55:56twice well so we can you know at least
3:56:01have that just rolled in here and just
3:56:03right no I understand that but I would
3:56:06rather have it all hammered out this
3:56:09this just
3:56:11seems well you know what really pre
3:56:14preemptive right now it's
3:56:18like there's got to be a way to do
3:56:21it to
3:56:23where I get something a little more
3:56:26concrete and then you know then I know
3:56:30for sure that that's it it's not going
3:56:33to
3:56:34keep going on and on from
3:56:39one so what what's an example of what
3:56:41you mean by concrete like what would you
3:56:46I guess I'm not clear on what you want
3:56:47well that's within our control what what
3:56:49what could we put in there in writing
3:56:51that is I don't know that there's I
3:56:53don't know I don't what types of ideas
3:56:56that you you know would you like it I
3:56:59just plain ideas that we can work with
3:57:03and I think I have some thoughts on you
3:57:05know a couple different ways we can try
3:57:06to work on
3:57:08this you know I just need to know what
3:57:10your concrete ideas are because you know
3:57:14that's what you want at I mean I I try
3:57:17to write that with your goals in mind
3:57:18based upon the flip chart of what your
3:57:20goals are and you know I think I try to
3:57:23satisfy those and you know to the extent
3:57:26you have other goals and other ideas
3:57:29then you know we working
3:57:37in yeah I'm just not so sure I even have
3:57:40that goal anymore I mean like I say if I
3:57:42they're going to
3:57:45it
3:57:46me looking for the death penalty is
3:57:49going to make this
3:57:52into a bigger surface than it already is
3:57:56and they're going to take all this
3:57:58information that
3:58:02I of the things that I've done and put
3:58:04it in
3:58:06a public sentencing here and
3:58:10I doesn't have to happen that way though
3:58:12well I don't know that though I mean cuz
3:58:14I've been told it does so this is the
3:58:17problem what I can tell you is the
3:58:20United States government controls what
3:58:22evidence is introduced into court and I
3:58:25represent them so I have absolute
3:58:28control over what evidence I put
3:58:31in right well that's good to know and if
3:58:36it says in here what evidence gets in
3:58:38introduced that's what Frank has to BU
3:58:40by yeah and no one's going to tell me
3:58:42that I you know here's what I have to do
3:58:45now obviously there's you know bosses
3:58:48everywhere that'll try to tell you stuff
3:58:49but if we have an agreement that bonds
3:58:52those people then you know it is what it
3:58:54is Court doesn't have any right to
3:58:57demand more information from US court
3:59:00has to let us try our case and I decide
3:59:04all the time a trial I'm not going to
3:59:05put that person on even though maybe
3:59:07they could help my case but it's not
3:59:09worth it to me it's not worth it to me
3:59:11because I have some other goal in mind
3:59:14legal strategy 101 happens every day so
3:59:18you know that is in my control that's
3:59:20what I'm telling you and so you want
3:59:23something that's within my
3:59:28control it's as simple as that
3:59:58oh boy
4:00:03up Max lock down year after
4:00:08bouncing doesn't have to be that way
4:00:11call it a peration
4:00:14doesn't have to be that
4:00:16way we're trying to avoid that everybody
4:00:18in this room I can tell you is trying to
4:00:20avoid it being a circus we're just
4:00:22trying to get you know what we want let
4:00:25people know our bosses that we're
4:00:26getting what we want you know we've got
4:00:28some
4:00:29insurances you negotiate what you
4:00:38want if we wanted to screw you I
4:00:40wouldn't be sitting there drafting a
4:00:41letter to you about here's what we're
4:00:43going to do you and you know I would
4:00:46even be in here you know we want to go
4:00:48ahead and just try to make you a villain
4:00:51we could just go and do
4:00:53that all
4:00:55right well you
4:00:58know you're concerned about the extent
4:01:01to
4:01:02which well there's certain things but
4:01:05from an entertainment's perspective from
4:01:07my perspective yeah it would be really
4:01:09fun to have all this stuff come out but
4:01:12you know I'm not trying to
4:01:14do my heart
4:01:25attack but I still think there's got to
4:01:29be something
4:01:32more that I can get out
4:01:34of getting more information I just cuz I
4:01:41don't I haven't seen anything that what
4:01:45do you
4:01:46want I want to know what's going to
4:01:48happen you want to know when what's
4:01:52going to happen and when you want to
4:01:53know
4:01:55yeah you want to know how much
4:01:57information is going to be released
4:01:59publicly let's flush that out a little B
4:02:03more
4:02:05well first of all we can't we can't talk
4:02:09about it
4:02:14and that's the biggest problem of all
4:02:17okay that problem
4:02:19secondly there's this problem with
4:02:21remont
4:02:23that they already have enough
4:02:25information on
4:02:28me they want you
4:02:32know they want to make it public or
4:02:34whatever one way or the other where
4:02:36honestly I don't really give I don't
4:02:39care if this career thing gets charged
4:02:43in Vermont or gets charged federally I
4:02:46because right now I'm it's not either
4:02:50way it's it seems like it's just going
4:02:52to keep dragging on and I've
4:02:57got other more
4:03:07immediate well your immediate concerns I
4:03:09mean here here's an idea has to De with
4:03:12your immediate concerns
4:03:16um you want time to deal with those
4:03:18immediate concerns and you know Vermont
4:03:20is obviously you know under some
4:03:24pressure to kind of make a decision in
4:03:26terms of charging there's a way I can at
4:03:28least go back to them as this band-aid
4:03:30and say look um we're going to you know
4:03:36move forward
4:03:38on part of the
4:03:40plan let's assume we go back to this
4:03:43with just the new
4:03:45and we simply
4:03:46say part of the plan to give it a try
4:03:49he's going to provide just the
4:03:52jurisdiction where the person is
4:03:54taken if you agree to kind of put
4:03:59off
4:04:01charging and just do the same thing
4:04:03you're doing you put off the press put
4:04:06off charging just say investigations
4:04:11continue there's a way to go back to
4:04:13them and that for like I just said you
4:04:15know Band-Aid type of thing just to to
4:04:18buy us some
4:04:20time you know I'll be happy to try that
4:04:23I no I don't like I say I don't
4:04:26care they've already released the
4:04:30information in the
4:04:33media you know they're going to charge
4:04:35me for it you're going to charge me for
4:04:37it either way I
4:04:40don't the whole thing wasn't even
4:04:44supposed
4:04:48to a way to you know at least put that
4:04:52off
4:04:54and you know if there's a way to put
4:04:56that off maybe there's a way to strike a
4:04:57bigger deal down the road you know if we
4:05:00buy some time for
4:05:06ourselves and obviously that would
4:05:08entail though getting the Assurance
4:05:10before you gave any information
4:05:15so I mean look it's it's a Band-Aid it
4:05:17allows you to get an
4:05:19insurance but it also provides you time
4:05:22to think about your ultimate goals and
4:05:24what you want in an
4:05:26agreement it also gives you a chance to
4:05:29see if this plan would work which I I
4:05:31sense is part of your concern yeah it
4:05:34doesn't it says that this plan it says
4:05:36right in this plan that this plan might
4:05:38not work
4:05:40so no not from our perspective I said
4:05:43look which not the kind of thing you
4:05:45want to see you
4:05:46talking which part are you talking about
4:05:49it
4:05:52says you understand that we have no
4:05:55control over what the Attorney General
4:05:58right so that's I mean but that's that
4:06:01could follow through with this entire
4:06:03thing like the majority walk there's
4:06:05there's
4:06:06nothing in it that anybody has control
4:06:10over I think I think we do have control
4:06:13over and you have control over things
4:06:15because that I put in there just you
4:06:17know the Attorney General thing at a
4:06:18difference for what you want because
4:06:20you're not getting what you want and I
4:06:22understand you don't have a benefit if
4:06:23the Attorney General comes back and
4:06:25says you know life in prison is what I
4:06:28want you to see that's not going to make
4:06:30you happy and then you know the benefit
4:06:33of your bargain is is lost in my minds
4:06:35and that's why I put it in there but
4:06:37look you know I think we didn't want to
4:06:39write this letter by
4:06:41saying you know the Attorney General is
4:06:44not never going to guarantee what's
4:06:46going to happen we can't make the
4:06:47Attorney General guarantee what's going
4:06:49to happen we can only make full
4:06:50information
4:06:52available so that's just a sort of
4:06:54acknowledgement that the Attorney
4:06:55General is an independent body he gets
4:06:57to make a decision you know whatever
4:06:59whatever F Bastion
4:07:02so you know look as much as there is you
4:07:06know the main Crux of this deal is you
4:07:09getting control over the prosecution of
4:07:12cases you getting control control over
4:07:14if you want the extend of information
4:07:16you're getting some guarantees over
4:07:19that and in exchange us moving forward
4:07:22as quickly as possible with you
4:07:24controlling you know some of the
4:07:27deadlines so I don't know I do think you
4:07:29get what you want I mean look we just
4:07:31can't you know I don't have the
4:07:32authority to speak for the Attorney
4:07:34General but I'd like to put a deadline
4:07:37on him too you know and say hey you got
4:07:40to come back with a decision next week
4:07:42but you he's listen to
4:07:46me well there's another factor that I
4:07:48just just occurred to me recently with
4:07:51the sentencing
4:07:54portion is if whoever happens to be
4:07:57sentencing me knows
4:08:00that the death penalty is what I
4:08:04want there's a chance that uh there
4:08:08could be some reverse psychology going
4:08:10into play there and they're going to
4:08:11want to give me the opposite of what I
4:08:13want
4:08:15well I think you even talked about that
4:08:17at one point and that's was part of your
4:08:20thought that you go before jury rather
4:08:21than
4:08:23judge yeah but I'm just saying it could
4:08:26work way yeah Poss there's just a lot
4:08:30of I mean look yeah know I mean it would
4:08:34be you know maybe
4:08:37this you can't guarantee like I said I
4:08:40can't guarantee what a judge is going to
4:08:41do I can't guarantee what a jury's going
4:08:42to do just we God a whole under the
4:08:44table
4:08:59resolu the the other way to look at that
4:09:01though is too is if if you think that's
4:09:03a possibility with that reverse
4:09:05psychology I mean I guess
4:09:07by if they think you have something
4:09:10still to offer
4:09:12Maybe maybe that would be an option but
4:09:15if not then you I mean there still think
4:09:18there's information to to be had oras if
4:09:20we had an agreement where all the
4:09:21information was going to come out I I
4:09:24mean I think that might be less likely
4:09:25you know what I mean yeah Ian that's
4:09:28reason I think they could look at
4:09:31something like
4:09:36that everybody just makes too big of a
4:09:38deal out of this
4:09:41stuff we're trying biger problems in the
4:09:44world we could be worrying about right
4:09:49now well this is you know one problem to
4:09:51day and this is sort of the problem that
4:09:53we all have and we're trying to come up
4:09:55with you know a solution that we get
4:09:58both both of us getting closer to our
4:10:01go and that's what I've been working on
4:10:03I'll come up with another plan I'm happy
4:10:04to kind of keep working on it I'm happy
4:10:07to redraft the letter I'm happy to kind
4:10:09of call whoever I need to
4:10:11call but you know I think uh I don't
4:10:15want to close the door on
4:10:17things well I don't really see that
4:10:19that's an option at this point no I mean
4:10:22I think we all understand that
4:10:24but we're just concerned
4:10:27that my at this point I'm
4:10:32thinking pretty obvious to me that
4:10:34whatever's going to happen is going to
4:10:35happen and I haven't been able to
4:10:39control haven't really been able to
4:10:41control any of the information I've
4:10:42given
4:10:43once R it out that's pretty much been it
4:10:47so I think you're wrong about that I
4:10:49mean look got toer Lake bank robbery has
4:10:52anybody questioned you about that tuer
4:10:54Lake bank robbery no I I'm not arson in
4:10:59Texas burglary in Texas no one's talk
4:11:02you about that right bank robbery in
4:11:05Texas it's probably kind of like small
4:11:07potato maybe so but look no I Cur thing
4:11:11was the only thing yes all right yeah
4:11:14okay great so all this stuff hasn't come
4:11:16out
4:11:20but I don't know
4:11:24I I
4:11:31just I just have some concerns with the
4:11:35these
4:11:38other first of all like I say there's I
4:11:41can't see that there's
4:11:44game at this point seems like whatever
4:11:46is going to happen is going to happen
4:11:50regardless again I'll disagree with you
4:11:52on that but like I said I think we can
4:11:55control it from minut here on yeah you
4:11:58know there was one cop in Vermont who
4:12:00spoke when he shouldn't have and you
4:12:02know yeah we got to eat that sorry about
4:12:05it it wasn't you know that wasn't our
4:12:08plan well like I said what's done is
4:12:11done yeah so but I exception of that I
4:12:14think you remarked before that you've
4:12:17been impressed about the level of
4:12:19discretion that we've
4:12:21displayed yeah no that's well mostly I
4:12:24was referring to the Alaska stuff but
4:12:26yeah that's great that's fine the Alaska
4:12:28stuff we have you know obviously more
4:12:30control over but um you know the the
4:12:34other jurisdictions we're just trying to
4:12:35control now I don't want to get in a
4:12:37position where I lose complete control
4:12:40or we lose complete control in this room
4:12:42about what happened in Vermont and
4:12:44that's just sort of what I was thinking
4:12:45about in terms of you know that letter
4:12:49is just trying to you kind of keep
4:12:51things under wraps there and have
4:12:56them join back together with
4:12:59us to go back to almost that
4:13:02letter I thought the letter was you was
4:13:05going to accomplish that and getting us
4:13:07where we need to
4:13:08go and so I'm just trying to figure out
4:13:11a way to kind of get back there because
4:13:14I think that's where you want to be
4:13:15where it just
4:13:19says well I mean even if hypothetically
4:13:23even if we had come to an agreement with
4:13:25that letter that reporter still would
4:13:27have released their information yeah but
4:13:29look look what it says here will not
4:13:30identify Mr Keys the perpetrator Mur and
4:13:32crime Vermont or charge him separately
4:13:34in our jurisdiction without your
4:13:37authorization right that's the part that
4:13:39you know I'm trying to get that back
4:13:44and in order to get that back I've got
4:13:45to buy it with
4:13:47something you know politically I've got
4:13:49to be able to give them something to say
4:13:50all right here's where why we're not
4:13:52doing it and we're going to you know if
4:13:53someone questions us down the road we
4:13:56have
4:13:57some uh reason to say here's why we
4:13:59didn't do it and so that's just there's
4:14:01a whole like law enforcement side you
4:14:03know and then there's a whole political
4:14:04side to this too that we're trying to
4:14:07kind of T down as
4:14:12well
4:14:42for
4:15:11for for
4:15:59yeah I don't
4:16:07know more
4:16:10efficient well I think you're certainly
4:16:13we
4:16:14uh you good at planed in
4:16:17way you get at planed stuff and that's
4:16:19what I'm trying to do here is simply
4:16:21come up with a plan and I'm seeking your
4:16:24input on the plan you're the planner and
4:16:26organizer we could use those skills now
4:16:28to work towards a different goal here
4:16:31yeah you know there's always certain
4:16:33things I
4:16:34like I'm trying to plan and I'm trying
4:16:36to you know give Vermont some little
4:16:40glimmer of hope and the hopes of comp
4:16:43figure goal if we can't accomplish the
4:16:46major one where we have to kind of
4:16:47redraft that letter and get some more
4:16:49concrete terms and you want to see what
4:16:52happens fine yeah I don't I see I don't
4:16:54even know like I say I don't even know
4:16:56what's possible well apparently my peps
4:16:59didn't want to be here so I mean it can
4:17:02be here if if you want that's
4:17:05the remember what that says is that if
4:17:08you want them here that they will they
4:17:10will be here immediately I think is what
4:17:12it says Mr cner is supposed to comeing
4:17:14with you know the
4:17:18order I thought you were always just
4:17:20reading that so you can boot me out if
4:17:22you didn't show up to boot you out what
4:17:25no I mean that's that's that's your
4:17:27right that's an option that the judges
4:17:29said is if you if we're here and you
4:17:32request him we give him a call and he
4:17:34according to this the judge's order he
4:17:36has to come immediately I don't even
4:17:38care if it's your physical it'd be nice
4:17:41if
4:17:44one of these
4:17:46times have a
4:17:52meeting well I mean what's I think he
4:17:53has it highlighted as exactly what it
4:17:56says yeah I I was looking at just to be
4:17:58sure anytime Mr ke want
4:18:01Council well I know I'm Council becomes
4:18:04IM immediately
4:18:07available that's what it says I
4:18:08understand that Council becomes
4:18:09available immediately so you know that's
4:18:12that's up to you if you know you want to
4:18:17discuss other crimes with Council
4:18:19present your other counsil stand by
4:18:21counsels Mr cner you know we can we can
4:18:24arrange that with
4:18:34them and we could call them at your
4:18:37request and see what he says your
4:18:41request well
4:18:46already requested it I say It was
4:18:50supposed
4:18:51to days you didn't request it through us
4:18:53just to be clear right no not through
4:18:55you okay saying there if you're
4:18:58requesting that from us now we're going
4:19:00to stop now and we're going to step out
4:19:02of the room and make a phone call we'll
4:19:08call God yeah I mean I don't know it
4:19:10sounds like there's nothing else we can
4:19:12talk about
4:19:15unless I mean I want to kind of obey the
4:19:18the court
4:19:20order you the letter if that's something
4:19:22your I don't know what else I don't know
4:19:25what
4:19:27else you have to offer
4:19:31me
4:19:33and um
4:19:43I yeah so I I mean I'm not I'm not happy
4:19:47with
4:19:49what the letter is it lays out the
4:19:53possibilities
4:19:55uh but I don't know if those are the
4:19:57only possibilities you I don't know
4:20:01just let's break this whole thing is
4:20:04this whole thing
4:20:06is like I said it's
4:20:10premature let me uh let's take a break a
4:20:12second step out I want to kind of make
4:20:16sure we're respecting your rights
4:20:20that I'm fine to talk I'm fine to talk
4:20:23for my speak for myself I'm just saying
4:20:25there's there other things that need to
4:20:28be discussed in these meetings that we
4:20:30can't talk about
4:20:32unless at least as it stands now unless
4:20:35my attorney is here so but this says
4:20:38right here you request us to to uh get a
4:20:42hold of him
4:20:43we'll do that
4:20:49right so I guess I should ask us for the
4:20:51record do you want us to do that you
4:20:54want us to call Mr perner right now and
4:20:56see if he can come over right
4:20:57now
4:21:00yeah all right do
4:21:03that you have to take a lead or anything
4:21:06yeah
4:21:20so what do we leave off what's going on
4:21:22with the
4:21:24cont all
4:21:27right here's what we
4:21:29have capital crimes has the mem all
4:21:33right it went in last
4:21:37week so um there was some
4:21:42the US attorney was a little
4:21:45bit um hesitant because there was some
4:21:49concerns that you didn't want to sign
4:21:51the uh agreement what agreement the
4:21:56um the uh agreement she she wrote to uh
4:22:01the one negating the
4:22:03first yeah right but when we we spoke in
4:22:08the last meeting we had we were all
4:22:10there and it was on record
4:22:13and I said I didn't want that wasn't
4:22:15supposed to be on the table in the first
4:22:17place okay and I asked feldis and that
4:22:20at the end of that meeting if there was
4:22:21anything else he needed and he said no
4:22:23yeah and then what what happened there
4:22:24is we went back to the US attorney and
4:22:26her impression was she said look the
4:22:28original one was in writing so I'd like
4:22:30to be in writing as well so she um wrote
4:22:34another letter and obviously uh you know
4:22:36you've seen this and so it basically
4:22:38said hey you know just like the comfort
4:22:40of it and then there was a court order
4:22:43as well that basically you know
4:22:44prohibited us from doing anything with
4:22:47capital crimes until judge Roberts
4:22:49reconsidered that um and so we got that
4:22:52rescinded but then after that um you
4:22:55know we wrote a bunch of other letters
4:22:57seeing whether or not that was still
4:22:59still your intent because the US
4:23:00attorney was very concerned that you
4:23:03know you might want to change your mind
4:23:05and she didn't want to Welch on a deal
4:23:07that she had promised so it sounds like
4:23:09the short story is you put in your memo
4:23:12you did not recommend the death pen I I
4:23:15can't tell you what US attorney
4:23:18recommended I'm not I'm prohibited I'm
4:23:20doing that I mean I can just give you I
4:23:23mean you probably have seen these
4:23:24letters that she I saw a couple of them
4:23:27okay so she she wrote a couple letters
4:23:29and then I wrote a letter to confirm and
4:23:31the last
4:23:32letter uh basically said you know the
4:23:35first paragraph I don't know if wants to
4:23:39show this to you I already all the
4:23:41letters last letter was you know Mr C
4:23:44did not say to Mr Keys has changed his
4:23:45mind Mr keys still wants us attorney
4:23:47leer to make her recommendation Unbound
4:23:51from any promises contained in the March
4:23:5330 letter I have conveyed this
4:23:54information to go turn left so that's
4:23:57where it stood so that was the
4:24:00last piece of the puzzle there and then
4:24:02she decided okay I'm going to send my
4:24:04recommendation after
4:24:05that she sent uh her recommendation in
4:24:10so they have it this week they wrote
4:24:12back
4:24:13saying um giving opportunities for a
4:24:16conference I think Karen mentioned this
4:24:17to you rich you were going to give me
4:24:19yeah oural dates we have four
4:24:22dates um for conference and that's an
4:24:25opportunity for your lawyers to meet
4:24:28with capital crimes and present
4:24:30information about mitigation about you
4:24:32know not seeking the debt penalty and
4:24:36those are August
4:24:376th August
4:24:3913th September 4th in September 17th
4:24:44those are the four possible
4:24:47dates that we have um and the procedure
4:24:50is I understand it is they invite your
4:24:52attorneys back there and uh you know
4:24:54they get
4:24:55to argue that the death penalty
4:24:58shouldn't be imposed that's what you
4:25:01want you I I'm not privy to your
4:25:03discussion so I don't know what
4:25:05hypothetically what happens if I don't
4:25:06have any
4:25:07attorneys um do I get a be to meeting
4:25:11well I mean
4:25:14I think obviously whatever you know look
4:25:17that's between you and your attorneys
4:25:18but um your position I think is made
4:25:21known through your attorneys that's my
4:25:23understanding of the process at this
4:25:25point so your position has to be made
4:25:27known to the capital crimes Review
4:25:31Committee through your attorneys and I
4:25:34don't know whether you know what your
4:25:36discussions were but and I don't know
4:25:38Rich if you plan to try to present
4:25:39mitigation it doesn't sounds like you
4:25:42still don't want mitigation in that
4:25:45case in other words you seem like you
4:25:49still are on course to the I would just
4:25:52tell you we're still these are complex
4:25:54issues we're still exploring all this uh
4:25:58you know I I don't know if um we talk
4:26:01about this with Israel all the time I
4:26:03don't understand I don't know if he
4:26:05completely understands all the
4:26:06procedures involved and the gravity of
4:26:08this type of decision so you know we're
4:26:10this we're ongoing discussion
4:26:12private
4:26:13discussion sure but the like I like
4:26:18saying before there's a lot of aspects
4:26:20of the coning case that um if it were to
4:26:23go to sentencing and death penalty
4:26:25hearing that I wouldn't want to be
4:26:29public same is with the Courier like
4:26:32what we were saying earlier what but but
4:26:34I have no you know I it doesn't matter
4:26:37what I sign or what deals we work out it
4:26:40sounds like there's no way you can give
4:26:41me any insurance as to whether or not
4:26:43those issues are going to come up at the
4:26:45he that can be something as I told him
4:26:48before when we got here we can discuss
4:26:49in the context of the global cell he's
4:26:51concerned about the details coming up in
4:26:53open court all right now to the extent
4:26:57that you know we want to limit that
4:27:00maybe we can do that in a global
4:27:02agreement in exchange for you know
4:27:05information about these other homicides
4:27:07and that's what I was suggesting to him
4:27:09I'm sure you seen a letter I sent to him
4:27:11saying you we can maybe go with this
4:27:14process and get some assurances from him
4:27:16that he wouldn't be prosecuted by state
4:27:19authorities and he just brought up this
4:27:21morning well you know I'm concerned that
4:27:23the details are going to get out no
4:27:25matter what they've already been out I
4:27:27mean did you see the video
4:27:29from from Vermont I mean a whole six
4:27:32minute video about everything of what of
4:27:35couriers and I me I didn't think that
4:27:37they really they came out you know it
4:27:39was one news station reporting it
4:27:42and everybody that I know of has seen
4:27:46but it's and it's basic information it's
4:27:47not the details that Israel is concerned
4:27:49about I don't think and none of the
4:27:51information that he's concerned about
4:27:53getting out has gotten out and he's
4:27:55talking about the details of the crimes
4:27:57not his family saw it before I did and
4:28:00that's the whole purpose well that's a
4:28:02concern too but I mean that you know as
4:28:05far
4:28:07as the Vermont
4:28:12that's another concern I have somewhat
4:28:16is if hypothetically if I give you
4:28:19details on on other crimes in other
4:28:21states you know what's what's ultimately
4:28:25going to happen at what point does that
4:28:28information become public knowledge as
4:28:31well or does it does it have to what's
4:28:34the procedure for that is there some way
4:28:36we can work it out to
4:28:39where if I give you this information and
4:28:42it stays sealed or at
4:28:46least limited release or something I
4:28:49don't know I I don't even know what the
4:28:51options are but it just seems like in
4:28:53Vermont as soon as they had the
4:28:55information they you know every of
4:28:57course everybody wants to know and it's
4:28:59going to be the same everywhere else too
4:29:01so I think we can work with these other
4:29:03jurisdictions by getting those
4:29:04assurances you know as I've said sort of
4:29:06before you know Vermont was something we
4:29:08weren't really sure about the scope of
4:29:11things that we are I think we can
4:29:13proceed better to kind of get assurances
4:29:15at least in the local jurisdictions that
4:29:17you know a they're not going to
4:29:19prosecute you're B any details you
4:29:21release you know at least are not
4:29:24published right now in terms of what
4:29:26comes out in court that was your other
4:29:29concern right right well not just what
4:29:31comes out in court but I'm also
4:29:32concerned about the coning case and that
4:29:34um you know it's a high-profile case up
4:29:37here and what's going to happen is as
4:29:40soon as it gets to the point where I
4:29:43plead to that then all the media is
4:29:47going to want it's going to be the same
4:29:49thing they're all going to be clamoring
4:29:50for details like what happened and all
4:29:53of that so how how are what efforts are
4:29:56going to be made to control that if any
4:29:58and what I
4:30:00mean I'm suggesting to you that we can
4:30:03come up with a global agreement which
4:30:07effectively limits what we put out in
4:30:10public exchange more information about
4:30:13the other H States so if we don't put
4:30:16that out in a court of you know law in
4:30:19public right the media wouldn't learn of
4:30:24it so that's my suggestion as to sort of
4:30:27a global thing to wrap kig into couriers
4:30:29and everything else I mean obviously you
4:30:31know Israel's expressed that he doesn't
4:30:33want to be dragged back to Vermont which
4:30:35you know we're trying to work with him
4:30:37on and we're trying to work with Vermont
4:30:38on and it's become a little bit
4:30:40difficult because things have slowed
4:30:41down a little bit um you know we'd like
4:30:44to wrap that in and keep them here and
4:30:46keep them in one place but we're going
4:30:48to need some sort of assurances for them
4:30:52that he's going to continue cooperating
4:30:54and that's what ront has want so in
4:30:56order to kind of I don't care about what
4:30:59comes out about the Courier that I guess
4:31:02my point
4:31:03is I can try and limit the information
4:31:06that comes out on all this other stuff
4:31:08but if if what comes if the details of
4:31:12the Conan case come
4:31:14out it doesn't matter how many other
4:31:17details we
4:31:19suppress other and that's what I'm
4:31:21suggesting to you is sort of a global
4:31:25settlement where there's an
4:31:27agreement to only go into certain
4:31:30details of the con case and The Courier
4:31:33case even though you told them about
4:31:34them that there been no limitation on
4:31:36those we now put limitations on those
4:31:39and we put and but that's that's what I
4:31:42want to make clear before we go any
4:31:45further on anything is um to have
4:31:48something somewhat concrete and writing
4:31:52you know saying that that information
4:31:53isn't going to come out when the time
4:31:55comes you know that I do plead guilty to
4:31:58the coning case or whatever whatever
4:32:01happens whenever the next release of
4:32:03information to the public is I you know
4:32:06whatever else we've been working on
4:32:09becomes n and void if all of a sudden
4:32:11there's a spood of information about
4:32:13what happened in the coning case and I'm
4:32:15pled guilty to it and then it doesn't
4:32:18matter and in return I mean for not
4:32:20introducing that information we'd want
4:32:22information about the other murders I
4:32:25understand that I don't like I say I
4:32:27don't care like all the other anything
4:32:30else it doesn't matter that much what I
4:32:32would suggest is I've talked to Israel
4:32:35about a global settl let me work with
4:32:38let me see if we can cuz he I've been
4:32:40definitely going to need Council to
4:32:43understand and to know what the glob
4:32:44settlement is I'd like to work with them
4:32:47and see if we can come up with something
4:32:48everybody can agree to
4:32:50GL yeah that's what I'm working towards
4:32:53too and but I need some time to make no
4:32:55and I agree I mean I just need to know
4:32:57what the demands are and that was the
4:32:58first time that that's really you know
4:33:01you know obviously it's not in the
4:33:02letter in the level of detail and you
4:33:04know I'm happy to work something out and
4:33:07try to get approval for what I'm
4:33:08suggesting obviously you know what he
4:33:10wants seems to be I want get death
4:33:12penalty imposed now that's a catch 22
4:33:15situation you understand because the
4:33:17more information the jury or judge has
4:33:19the more likely it may be that they may
4:33:21impose that all right um if we take that
4:33:25away it may be less likely but that's
4:33:27something hey I again I told you I don't
4:33:29really care what sentence you you know
4:33:31gets imposed upon you you're the one who
4:33:33cares about it but I'll be up front with
4:33:36you yeah they don't have that level of
4:33:38detail I think you probably would want
4:33:40to have you know Mur is in there to
4:33:43justify the decision you want them to
4:33:45reach it's sort of a quantity versus
4:33:47quality right I I understand that I'm
4:33:49just saying
4:33:53um yeah so they have all the numbers
4:33:56that's
4:33:57[Music]
4:33:59fine but that's what
4:34:01that's the only thing they need those
4:34:04numbers for is the
4:34:07sentencing yeah no it would only come
4:34:08out at the sentencing but we'd have to
4:34:10get something in return I mean right now
4:34:12yeah you know we know about how many
4:34:14people you killed I mean that's pretty
4:34:16clear I mean that's not a a problem what
4:34:19we want is the information about those
4:34:23partners and it could be you know look
4:34:25briefly initially to protect your
4:34:27interests to Simply say this person in
4:34:30this jurisdiction kidnapped them from
4:34:33here and you know that
4:34:35would satisfy our goals and it would
4:34:38also satisfy your goals I think too but
4:34:43again I think we both have to figure out
4:34:45what we want to get out of
4:34:50this I mean it's possible to limit that
4:34:53information that's presented I think in
4:34:55a sentencing here again i' have to betet
4:34:57this up the chain but you know we can
4:34:59limit Courier we can limit coning in
4:35:02exchange for the information about the
4:35:05other
4:35:07so see this process with the death peny
4:35:10on the table is a whole thing for all of
4:35:12us we have handled many cooperation
4:35:15agreements where there's a sealed to ple
4:35:18for the proceedings are closed where
4:35:21information is not made public in order
4:35:23to protect um order to protect you know
4:35:27any somebody who's cooperating or in
4:35:29this case protecting the family of
4:35:30somebody who's
4:35:31cooperating and so that's something that
4:35:35I'd like to discuss with his realy and
4:35:37yeah I mean government so that's
4:35:39something that you know is sort of plan
4:35:42a of of things we can do is hope to put
4:35:46everything under seal and justify it by
4:35:48one safety to your family and to the
4:35:50fact that these guys are still going to
4:35:52be confirming the information you're
4:35:54providing and they don't want anybody to
4:35:56interfere with that
4:35:58process so some of that you know again
4:36:01as Mr ker said it's you know it's
4:36:03different in the of death penalty but
4:36:04it's some ways the same as what we
4:36:07always do in other types of cases
4:36:10involving cooperation and stuff goes on
4:36:12your seal and that's what I'd like to
4:36:13talk to you about this yeah I just I
4:36:16just
4:36:18um that's why I keep saying all this is
4:36:21kind of tied together for me because uh
4:36:23if certain details of the of the coning
4:36:26case come out then you know anything
4:36:27else yeah it doesn't matter right that's
4:36:30sort of like here that's that's kind
4:36:35of worst case scenario than everything
4:36:38else I did before that is automatically
4:36:40going to be assumed just
4:36:42back it's a fair point
4:36:45um and the problem I'm dealing with and
4:36:48I'm telling you know Israel this is the
4:36:50problem I'm dealing with has been you
4:36:51know Vermont and you know they're they
4:36:55feel like they're Unbound by any loyalty
4:36:57to us and what has been done for that
4:37:00case because there's no you know
4:37:03assurance that things in the future are
4:37:05going to be done what I'm trying to do
4:37:07is kind of put their charging decisions
4:37:10off and trying to give us some breathing
4:37:13room to figure out how to wrap all this
4:37:15stuff up rather than do it do different
4:37:18jurisdictions perhaps the real I still
4:37:21don't know how I can even make any kind
4:37:23of decision on this if I don't even know
4:37:26first of all you know you you say you
4:37:28can't tell me what your recommendation
4:37:31was um I made it clear what I wanted it
4:37:34to be and so you're expecting me to make
4:37:38decision on everything you're saying
4:37:40clear I mean you didn't sign the the
4:37:42agreement so that wasn't exactly clear
4:37:43made it verbally clear yeah I uh was
4:37:46there a reason you didn't want to sign
4:37:47this I didn't get
4:37:54it I just found out the other day that
4:37:56the recommendation was already name so I
4:37:59assume it doesn't matter if I sign it
4:38:01now I just found out from
4:38:04Karen meeting we had on Tuesday mhm we
4:38:08had a court meeting
4:38:11that's when she told me she had already
4:38:14s in a recommendation yeah I mean you
4:38:16know she can always sort of change a
4:38:19recommendation no I'll sign it now I I
4:38:22just was I was told that you know it was
4:38:24already done it was the recommendations
4:38:28already in there run and to me I don't
4:38:31think this is valid anyway you know our
4:38:33feelings about it because you complied
4:38:34with your agreement agreement I don't
4:38:37and so look
4:38:40I the boss
4:38:42so we already all know how this How This
4:38:45Ends so you know
4:38:47it's all I care about is what happens
4:38:51between now and whenever it ends and if
4:38:55you
4:38:56know things don't go the way I
4:39:01want I don't I don't need you
4:39:05guys let's let's just talk about that
4:39:07okay let's see if we can resolve it
4:39:11I mean you know this whole thing is just
4:39:13turning no I mean I think that there is
4:39:16you know look the US attorney can always
4:39:17provide additional information to
4:39:19capital crimes additional you know
4:39:22information you'd like to provide your
4:39:23attorneys would like to provide she's
4:39:25made that clear in her letters um you
4:39:28know I think and what's with this why
4:39:30why do they have to go back and meet
4:39:32with what did you call it essentially if
4:39:36I mean that's going to be between you
4:39:37and your attorneys but the process
4:39:39typically is in the typical case is the
4:39:41attorneys argue that you know Deb
4:39:43penalty shouldn't be imposed great let's
4:39:45just mix
4:39:48that that's your attorneys no I'm
4:39:51telling you now if they show up then
4:39:53they're not authorized to be
4:39:55there yeah you can discuss that with
4:39:57them I mean we have we're required by
4:39:59our our um policies to give them an
4:40:01opportunity and you an opportunity to do
4:40:04that so you you know you talk to them
4:40:07about what you want them to do that's
4:40:09that's between you guys all right so
4:40:12um but I mean to the extent that this
4:40:14letter I mean this you know I think the
4:40:17US tery would appreciate it ratification
4:40:20if you did sign this letter
4:40:24yeah and I just got to put on record
4:40:26this is against my advice
4:40:32Israel go
4:40:35that have you read that
4:40:38letter make sure just make sure you
4:40:40understand it
4:40:42yeah the same one have you seen that
4:40:54before
4:40:58yeah so the date of this just to sort of
4:41:02put the date on is
4:41:06720 I mean I'll forward this to the US
4:41:09attorneys as well
4:41:15but I think these dates are pretty quick
4:41:17and they're you know what's the first
4:41:19one August 5th August 6th 6 6th
4:41:23that's I mean whatever your attorneys
4:41:25and you tell us I'll I'll tell them I'll
4:41:26write them back you know today and say
4:41:28all right here's the date that you can
4:41:29conference
4:41:32this and what happens
4:41:36next they don't if they don't show up
4:41:38then it goes to the attorney general for
4:41:40Deion
4:41:44all
4:41:45right so are there any dates that
4:41:48uh
4:41:51the they don't they don't need to be
4:41:55there let me talk to other
4:42:02C if they don't get to be there they
4:42:04don't get to be
4:42:07there I'll ask yeah I'll ask them about
4:42:10what uh what the procedures are and whe
4:42:13you know maybe you know you do have a
4:42:15right to kind of be telec conference and
4:42:16I just don't know what uh what they do
4:42:18in these types of
4:42:21situations
4:42:22yeah so that's that's where coning is
4:42:28um you know I would like to explore this
4:42:31idea again of this political sh sooner
4:42:34rather than later to be able to kind of
4:42:35control let me talk to this afternoon
4:42:37come over this afternoon yeah we can
4:42:39talk about it but I mean I want to uh
4:42:42make it clear that from here on out the
4:42:44coning case gets Incorporated in
4:42:46whatever information is
4:42:49exchanged case gets any information I
4:42:53give you is incor incorporated into that
4:42:56to whatever happens in the com case so
4:42:58you like a go so that I so that I have
4:43:00yeah so that I have control over what
4:43:02information is released in that and you
4:43:05know we can do it on like a peace meal
4:43:08basis if if you you know if if I feel
4:43:11like
4:43:16uh if I feel like things don't work out
4:43:20at any point then you know obviously
4:43:23then I'm not going to be giving any more
4:43:26information I just
4:43:30don't yeah like starting this whole
4:43:33process with the Cur I don't even know
4:43:34why the Courier thing has to happen
4:43:38right now but whatever whatever they
4:43:39decide to do with it I don't care about
4:43:40that they can I'm little concerned about
4:43:44what happens
4:43:47with that's the one that and so we can
4:43:50work on terms of you know some Global
4:43:53sell that includes coding and you know
4:43:55in order to get Vermont on the board I'd
4:43:57have to kind
4:43:57of oh whatever they want to do no I
4:44:00don't but I mean you don't want to be in
4:44:02a situation where we we solve everything
4:44:04else and then Char are still out there
4:44:09correct no I mean yeah so that's why I'm
4:44:12trying to keep them you know I'll tell
4:44:16them when I talk to them I'm sure I'm
4:44:17going have to talk to them this week is
4:44:19that that you know you're considering
4:44:22and talking to your attorneys about the
4:44:23idea of a global
4:44:25settlement you know to give to give you
4:44:28some time to do
4:44:30that
4:44:31right yeah see what I can do I mean I I
4:44:35don't understand like I say I'm sure
4:44:38they want to do a press release about me
4:44:41whatever but I don't understand why
4:44:43they're even concerned that I'm charged
4:44:45with it it's not like I'm going anywhere
4:44:47no I know I know but it's you know it's
4:44:48a community thing for them and I
4:44:50understand their position and I'm you
4:44:52know been staving them off All This Time
4:44:54by telling them look you know he's
4:44:56cooperating on other crimes
4:44:58and that's that's his intent but again
4:45:02me telling them that Israel's going to
4:45:04tell us this
4:45:09information the other thing maybe you
4:45:10wanted cuz I know you like you know time
4:45:12frames and setting some ground rules and
4:45:14stuff and you haven't been happy with
4:45:16the way things have been moving like
4:45:18like now you want to set when do you
4:45:19want us when do you want to talk about
4:45:21this again I know Mr perner says he
4:45:23wants to talk to you today when do you
4:45:25foresee um being able to do this to
4:45:28expedite things so that we're not three
4:45:30weeks from now talking about the same
4:45:34thing um you know what I mean cuz you
4:45:36you kind of you're in control of that
4:45:37now that everybody's here you can have
4:45:40if you have to make maybe you can set
4:45:42those
4:45:46out well as far as just meeting again
4:45:49and discussing
4:45:50things I think mean I think we need to
4:45:53get this explore this local
4:45:57settlement we can we'll work on that we
4:45:59can get that together
4:46:07us because without that I can see us
4:46:09going anywhere
4:46:11yeah know I think that's it would be
4:46:13would be certainly helpful OPP other
4:46:15things that working onage
4:46:20but you know in terms of this local got
4:46:23something we want to explore
4:46:36um well I mean what I can say at least
4:46:38it sounds like you know I can advise
4:46:41crimes that August 6 is sort of a
4:46:44workable date if mes change well I mean
4:46:47for me on my schedule September 17th
4:46:49would
4:46:51be yeah I know exctly it doesn't even
4:46:53have to happen so why do we even need a
4:46:56date yeah I mean why does there have to
4:46:59be mitigation I don't understand there's
4:47:01no just said there doesn't have to be so
4:47:04it's just a date an opportunity we don't
4:47:07want to deprive you of that opportunity
4:47:09but you don't want that opport
4:47:11so if I got to go yeah let's do it's
4:47:15clear just it sounds like obviously you
4:47:17don't want any mitigation presented in
4:47:19the coning
4:47:20case
4:47:22correct I'm not interested in any dates
4:47:26in the coning case anything added to it
4:47:29that's going to complicate it whatever
4:47:31you have to do to
4:47:33freaking get it moved along and do
4:47:36it
4:47:39MH all right
4:47:41well I'll talk to capital crimes and
4:47:43pass along your views on it and as long
4:47:47as well as the view of you like to be
4:47:50hered on it I don't know is that true
4:47:53yeah no I if there's if if there's some
4:47:56sort of mitigation that's set up I
4:47:58definitely want to be part of it because
4:47:59that means I didn't know about
4:48:03it I don't know what there's a procedure
4:48:05for that maybe there is I'm not sure but
4:48:07uh I did ask them about that
4:48:12but in the meantime I think we can
4:48:15explore the global sell and you're
4:48:17talking about the
4:48:19one initially when I wrote that letter
4:48:21rich on uh July 16th right well I would
4:48:27personally I would make counter
4:48:30proposal yeah I understand and then I
4:48:32Incorporated a little more concrete
4:48:33deals the July 20 which you
4:48:36have the um the July 16th letter global
4:48:44settlement it's uh
4:49:24[Music]
4:50:09for for
4:51:00I think you seen that
4:51:05before I think that was written before
4:51:07the stuff in Vermont broke
4:51:14well it makes a lot more sense to do it
4:51:16in the coning
4:51:17case Courier M yeah that was written on
4:51:22I think that was like a Thursday or
4:51:24Friday July
4:51:2616th so then and then Monday they told
4:51:28me that the FBI was going to stop at and
4:51:31then that's when I brought you the other
4:51:32thing on the
4:51:3620th got check more
4:51:44all
4:51:47right any other questions is while we're
4:51:49all
4:51:52here any IDE any time frame you'd like
4:51:55to see met here for our next
4:52:19not
4:52:21working in terms of what like we're
4:52:24doing or I'm trying to
4:52:32figure you taking it back
4:52:34now when he's ready
4:52:42you ready Israel
4:52:44to go back
4:52:48yeah I'll be
4:52:52over give us a minute here and
4:52:56then up need to take a leak or anything
4:52:58before we head back no I'm good
4:53:23yeah other ones are really old
4:53:51we we came in we're just going to start
4:53:52by advising you give Mir and
4:53:55then um you have the right to remain
4:53:58silent you understand that yes anything
4:54:00you say can will be used against you in
4:54:02the court of law do you understand that
4:54:03yes you have the right to talk to a
4:54:04lawyer and have him present with you
4:54:06while you're being questioned you
4:54:07understand that yes if you cannot afford
4:54:09to hire a lawyer one will appointed to
4:54:10represent you before and during any
4:54:12question with you wish you understand
4:54:13that yes you can decide at any time to
4:54:15exercise these rights and not answer any
4:54:17questions or make any statements you
4:54:19understand that yes okay um I have these
4:54:21rights in mind you want to talk to us
4:54:23today yeah okay we uh we just wanted to
4:54:26get that out of the way rich is on his
4:54:28way over okay um this is the email that
4:54:31rich sent over yesterday
4:54:43all right so he is on his way anything
4:54:46you want anything while waiting you
4:54:47shouldn't
4:54:49be eat c bar done with the newspaper
4:54:54already did you what did you swear off
4:54:56those
4:54:58cand it's in the fridge I don't know
4:55:02it's tell I'm going to eat
4:55:04it so anyhow we'll be back out over here
4:55:08when uh BR gets here all right
4:55:12I won't go anywh all
4:55:39right
4:56:09for for
4:56:33[Music]
4:56:46[Applause]
4:57:09[ __ ]
4:57:39for for
4:58:18off
4:58:21my how are you doing today Isel all
4:58:24right just before we start I know these
4:58:26guys read you your rights earlier yes
4:58:29okay um and then you were just meeting
4:58:31uh privately with Rich Berner
4:58:34your and rich just came out and
4:58:36indicated that um you did not want him
4:58:39to be president
4:58:42today correct okay so again I want to
4:58:46make sure we go have those down rules
4:58:48Rich told me that you indicated you did
4:58:50not want to present today um so we will
4:58:54U take you at your word on that and if
4:58:56at any time you would like us to call
4:58:58Rich back or any other attorney to be
4:59:01standby counsel uh please let us know
4:59:03okay all right um we're only going to be
4:59:06talking about things unrelated to the
4:59:08seman col case today you understand that
4:59:11understood yes right and obviously um
4:59:14without your attorney present in Cony
4:59:17case we won't be able to talk about
4:59:19anything related to that case and if if
4:59:21you start to talk about it you know
4:59:23we're going to have to
4:59:25stop okay yes right
4:59:29um that's been sitting in the in the
4:59:32refrigerator for the thank you here's
4:59:35here's the thing the FBI has been
4:59:36cleaning up the
4:59:37refri keep for 100 years or something
4:59:40it's twn
4:59:42yeah all right um so talking about other
4:59:45crimes
4:59:47um you know we we wanted to kind of pick
4:59:50up where we left off on some things uh
4:59:53give you any information that you might
4:59:55be thinking about over the last few
4:59:56weeks right we related to that and I
4:59:59think we had some updates on the New
5:00:01York search and things like that so why
5:00:04don't we start there okay and I and also
5:00:06the the live feed I wanted to jump into
5:00:08that because I know um came over on
5:00:12Tuesday um we had it set up we had a
5:00:14couple guys up in Tupper Lake um
5:00:17oh to go over the bank to go over the
5:00:20bankr yeah bit of dve Drive where they
5:00:23were at um now in all fairness I never
5:00:26set up a specific day but it actually
5:00:28would have worked because my attorney
5:00:30didn't show up till that
5:00:32afternoon all right well it didn't work
5:00:34that day um but we uh we had hoped to
5:00:37have it set up today since we when we
5:00:38found you were was going to work for
5:00:40today but elb had some other stuff come
5:00:42up but I have to say it was pretty cool
5:00:44we tested it in the way that just so you
5:00:46have an idea of what it looks like and
5:00:47what to expect cuz we'll try to set
5:00:49something up for next week um but we did
5:00:52two laptops one of them was uh a
5:00:57essentially like a Tracker so you had an
5:00:59over an overhead GPS Google Map kind of
5:01:01view and then the other one was the live
5:01:03feed actually from the camera and then
5:01:05the plan we had speaker phones so then
5:01:07you can say you know go right here go
5:01:08left here and our plan was just to use
5:01:11cuz Tupper Lake's a little more remote
5:01:12than doing it in a city we wanted to um
5:01:15use Tupper Lake and just T about the
5:01:17bank rber because that was make sure we
5:01:19have cell reception or wherever signal
5:01:22CU depending on where they where they're
5:01:24at they have to use sometimes they'll
5:01:25use satellite sometimes so we're going
5:01:27to use different types of things in
5:01:28order to bring that wow it's kind of
5:01:31assume some of these places we're going
5:01:32to go are going to be cell phone
5:01:34only finally living up to people's
5:01:37expectations all those CSI shows
5:01:41they still can't usually get the things
5:01:42solved in 20 minutes yeah really it's an
5:01:45hour show but I'm picturing the Google
5:01:47Earth car driving
5:01:49around right you get one
5:01:53of so we like to still do that yeah um
5:01:59and I don't I don't have a day yet I
5:02:01don't know a specific there snow there
5:02:04yet um
5:02:06probably there wasn't if there there
5:02:08wasn't much I mean it wasn't something
5:02:11East Co but typically the morning works
5:02:12for you right because that's for the
5:02:144our time if we could get that there's
5:02:17kind of want to don't want to drive 3
5:02:20hours again maybe we could just do it in
5:02:22Al in
5:02:23here but we thought the memory lane trip
5:02:26CER Lake would be more interesting maybe
5:02:29for both of
5:02:32us yeah well I spent a lot of
5:02:37time I'm sure we under
5:02:40[Music]
5:02:42we so you're next week yeah I I don't
5:02:44have a specific date yet but we'll work
5:02:46on setting up a date next week and we'll
5:02:47do it um like we did this time early
5:02:50enough that if you've got other stuff um
5:02:53right try not to make a conflict with
5:02:55that so that we can get you back there
5:02:57by mid morning even
5:03:00right yeah I didn't realize you
5:03:03guys went
5:03:07all you didn't mention that when you
5:03:09came I did mention that you didn't you
5:03:11weren't in a you weren't
5:03:13receptive well look that's all right
5:03:15it's your it's your decision but we just
5:03:16want to let you know they're going to
5:03:17set it up next week and it'll be your
5:03:19choice whether to come over or not but
5:03:20they're probably not going to set keep
5:03:22they're only able to do this we'll do it
5:03:26again gas is
5:03:29expensive keep in within the budget tuer
5:03:32lake is probably a good still a good
5:03:33location now yeah
5:03:41uh another thing was New York stuff so
5:03:44what they took from the property in New
5:03:46York all
5:03:51right this was the this is the
5:03:56list some of it's pretty you know kind
5:03:59ofic to the description of what it is WR
5:04:03but show the old property
5:04:11Wow way
5:04:14back what's
5:04:16Stu all this stuff anything from New
5:04:19York you're going way back when's the
5:04:21last time you were there well I was
5:04:23there just a year or so ago but living
5:04:25there
5:04:26I like stayed there and you went by
5:04:29there
5:04:302011 at the cier time oh yeah every time
5:04:33I'm back I go by but I I mean all the
5:04:36stuff that's there
5:04:37is it's like childhood memor
5:04:41did you live there for a period of time
5:04:43yeah how
5:04:47long little less than a year 78 months
5:04:50in 97 I think yeah
5:04:5597 it look the
5:04:57same I'm surprised the RO is still there
5:05:01there's a lot of
5:05:03uh on one side it's missing a lot of
5:05:05shingles I of these pictures I thought
5:05:08last time I there I thought
5:05:11spot but there's some other pictures and
5:05:13apparently the basement oh I got some
5:05:15pictures the basement's got quite a bit
5:05:16of water in it oh here you can see it
5:05:18better that's the indor swiming
5:05:21pool yeah you can see high
5:05:24groundw
5:05:27yeah so this is the main this is the
5:05:30main house cuz there's a bunch of
5:05:31buildings or a you like an old garage
5:05:34and an old shed yeah
5:05:37okay and then here's
5:05:40something
5:05:46cool one of these pictures you can maybe
5:05:49it's the one it's just the angle one of
5:05:52the support beams are yeah is coming
5:05:55down and so it's not super stable
5:05:58surprised they were able to get
5:06:00down goes through the
5:06:02window came down put a ladder down
5:06:04through the window okay down that way
5:06:07yeah those stairs
5:06:12is that the kitchen of the main
5:06:16house
5:06:36yeah have there been other people
5:06:38staying there you know was that what all
5:06:40this stuff is from this is a closeup
5:06:42with that or was that how it was when
5:06:45you were
5:06:49there last time I was there looked like
5:06:51there had been hunters or campers
5:06:54hanging out in
5:06:56there cuz there
5:07:01was there was a m or someone of these
5:07:03fls too it's not in these pictures it
5:07:07might be just opposite side here there's
5:07:09a in the kitchen
5:07:15area and then building is
5:07:19that what's the
5:07:26[Music]
5:07:35garage there was no running water
5:07:40there was yeah there was an indoor
5:07:42bathroom too oh there was
5:07:49okay and then you got a third building
5:07:54yeah did you guys had animals there at
5:07:56one
5:07:57point not like dogs and cats but like
5:08:00animals in one of
5:08:02these that's what they said it l like it
5:08:05there some ha or straw and stuff still
5:08:07still around
5:08:16[Music]
5:08:18this was a box gra that first sheet
5:08:21there's a receipt on there you can't
5:08:22really see it in the uh
5:08:27picture
5:08:31right there's an invoice for some gun
5:08:35for some guns and ammo
5:08:40back in
5:08:431994 you remember what that was
5:08:48for I recognize some of those books
5:08:50vaguely but it's been a while since I've
5:08:52been so did you have a place up there
5:08:55that you go to buy guns no not New York
5:08:58I never bought guns officially I was
5:09:00always under the table okay we'll get
5:09:04the invoice cuz they said the invoice
5:09:05was in your
5:09:06name in March of of 94
5:09:11it had a gun on
5:09:12it that's what I thought I thought it
5:09:15had a gun on it that was my
5:09:16interpretation but
5:09:18I'll I'll have them send up the in so we
5:09:20can look at
5:09:30it bunch of
5:09:32maps those yours
5:09:39anything we should be computer any ex's
5:09:43on them anywhere anything should be
5:09:45looking on
5:09:49highlight
5:09:54highl the only map you found that had
5:09:56highlighting on I Didn't Do highlighting
5:09:58who did the highligh on that one I don't
5:10:01know I just found
5:10:03that what about the map that one I think
5:10:06there was one in the car
5:10:09when I was arrested yeah yeah but I
5:10:11didn't do the highlighting on that's all
5:10:13I'm
5:10:14saying I know that's what they were
5:10:18thinking well it was the interstate that
5:10:20was highlighted and you don't seem to
5:10:22really be an interstate kind of person
5:10:25know that's
5:10:29just couple other
5:10:32things was a mattress out in the woods
5:10:39what that was
5:10:42no there were some clothes under it
5:10:44there were some women's clothes under
5:10:51it I mean you're not going to find
5:10:58anything they were they were underneath
5:11:03it than
5:11:07you and then this is a photo from the
5:11:11fire pit area behind the
5:11:14house oh
5:11:17yeah it's a
5:11:19ring it's like a men's ring and those
5:11:23are some like beads from a
5:11:26necklace
5:11:28huh yeah I I haven't burned anything in
5:11:30that pit for a long time
5:11:33so anything that you found in there is
5:11:36probably from hunters or somebody who's
5:11:38camp in there so I mean there hasn't
5:11:40been a I put a gate across the
5:11:45road uh soon as my folks moved out of
5:11:48that place but it only stayed up for a
5:11:51year or two and then Hunters cut it down
5:11:53what are they hunting was
5:11:58there was there ever a time that you
5:12:01burned anything of significance in that
5:12:02fire
5:12:04pit no not upgrad
5:12:11anything related to
5:12:13crimes possibly but nothing this is all
5:12:16nothing like this no that's this is all
5:12:18ancient history stuff this is before I I
5:12:22mean I haven't really spent much time
5:12:23there ever since I was an okay so this
5:12:26this isn't going to be a ring to
5:12:28somebody that we need to be worried
5:12:30about no
5:12:40some of
5:12:43those have any questions about this
5:12:46stuff we're going to get all of this up
5:12:48here and so once we get it up here we
5:12:49can pull it out like I we'll grab this
5:12:51stuff to see what that
5:12:53is what the invoices okay some of this
5:12:58other stuff
5:13:10you know who's
5:13:13that yeah we'll bring it in when we get
5:13:17it
5:13:23sure so I think that you said DP down
5:13:26memory lane there it
5:13:31was I didn't even realize I still had
5:13:34anything in there I I'm guessing all
5:13:36that stuff was in the garage or
5:13:38something um it was it was spread out I
5:13:41think the box was in the garage I don't
5:13:42remember where some of the other like
5:13:44the road you know some of the other
5:13:45specific stuff but I know the Box pretty
5:13:47sure the box was in
5:13:54the I think uh jump into this quick I
5:13:59had this stuff laid out to show you um
5:14:03look yeah I think we may have even
5:14:06showed you these before I saw ones
5:14:09okay yeah these that they found it yeah
5:14:12they might have pulled something away so
5:14:14you can see about where it was
5:14:18I yeah that was so like walking up on it
5:14:20you
5:14:21see um we got
5:14:27a report we got all the stuff sented
5:14:29into the lab you do with everything that
5:14:31we get and
5:14:33U on the
5:14:37tray that in there there's a perfect
5:14:41right
5:14:44thumb yeah right no there is I don't
5:14:47have the
5:14:48lab wow
5:14:52uhoh so more CSI stuff yeah I'm
5:14:56impressed well I'm disappointed in
5:14:59myself mostly but
5:15:01I'm the lab examiner called me I don't
5:15:04have a report when I get the report they
5:15:05I'll show you the report but I'm not BS
5:15:08it was on one of these two on the
5:15:10plastic train
5:15:11so
5:15:17H like this this must be the plastic
5:15:19like a bottom view of or top view of it
5:15:22okay slides into that cardboard sleeve
5:15:24mhm well was kind of in a hurry I guess
5:15:30whatever I'm too lazy to even dig a hole
5:15:33for that
5:15:34one rock
5:15:39were you planning on going back for
5:15:41that yeah this
5:15:48Summer that would have been a good
5:15:51trip I still can't get over the whole
5:15:54the Disappeared house and
5:15:57off have big plans for this summer back
5:16:00there well I you know I was going to go
5:16:03back there I just picture driving up
5:16:07looking everywhere for that farmhouse
5:16:09not being able to find it down yeah that
5:16:11would have been
5:16:13funny you guys did
5:16:18that speaking of Vermont yeah speaking
5:16:21of Vermont we were talking to Vermont on
5:16:27Monday and they want to know what's
5:16:30going on and they are interested in
5:16:33violent charges as they have been all
5:16:35along
5:16:39Federal well you know you don't know no
5:16:42no I mean we talked to both the state
5:16:44and federal prosecutors on Monday
5:16:48and we want to know what we should tell
5:16:51them from your
5:17:01perspective well it's a little hard to
5:17:03talk about the general over my general
5:17:04overall perspective right now for
5:17:06obvious reason so well just tell us your
5:17:09I understand that and we're not going to
5:17:11do that but we're going to we are
5:17:12interested in your respective on The
5:17:14Courier murders because that's what
5:17:16they're interested
5:17:17in and they're yeah they're also
5:17:20interested in you know your cooperation
5:17:22on other crimes and where that stands
5:17:24and whether you intend to follow through
5:17:26on some of that and so that's the kind
5:17:27of thing you looking for from
5:17:33us well like I've said all along my
5:17:37cooperation on other
5:17:40crimes is dependent
5:17:44on what's going on with crimes that I'm
5:17:48already charged
5:17:50with and I've said that
5:17:59all as far as
5:18:12I'm losing interest in the legal process
5:18:14I you
5:18:15say well you've known and we've been you
5:18:18know we we've talked about this quite a
5:18:19bit
5:18:20that
5:18:23ront is willing to be patient if they
5:18:26think that there's forward momentum on
5:18:29soling other crimes you know and I know
5:18:31that you don't care about that from the
5:18:33perspective of families of other victims
5:18:35but Vermont does and so way to meet in
5:18:39the middle by giving something that they
5:18:42can then have know they don't need to
5:18:45know the details of it but they need to
5:18:46know if we've gotten some details so
5:18:48that they can continue to hold
5:18:55off I just don't understand why um even
5:18:59from a legal perspective I don't
5:19:01understand what the hurry is of what
5:19:02their issue is as to why they want to
5:19:04file charges additional charges when I'm
5:19:06clearly already charged with substantial
5:19:10well in in Vermont you've got State
5:19:12prosecutors who right now have it
5:19:16unsolved yeah according to the public
5:19:20unsolved murder of the the
5:19:24couriers right so the law
5:19:28enforcement is under a lot of
5:19:32pressure they get calls from the Press
5:19:34they been telling us every week you know
5:19:36it's a little different state
5:19:38prosecutors are electing so I think they
5:19:40probably feel more of a obligation to
5:19:44you know inform the the public and you
5:19:47know people are appointed Lifetime
5:19:52prosecut
5:19:59right but uh since
5:20:02they've called off the search for the
5:20:07bodies as far as the public knows they
5:20:09can't even definitively say that it was
5:20:11a
5:20:12homicide I know they already told
5:20:14everybody it
5:20:15was they know that Vermont know right so
5:20:20Vermont as you let's just be a really
5:20:22realistic approach to State prosecutor
5:20:25of Vermont you know you wanted to come
5:20:28out and say hey here are the charges
5:20:30we've got we've got the guy case solv
5:20:32that's what you want to do right so you
5:20:36need to give them a reason to say don't
5:20:38do
5:20:45that if you don't want me to do that I
5:20:48mean if
5:20:51that's well like I say my perspective at
5:20:54this point
5:20:57is they're asking for a
5:21:01reason for me to give them a reason not
5:21:03to do that and
5:21:10I have no reason to suspect that at this
5:21:13point that any information and any
5:21:15further information I give is going to
5:21:16be
5:21:18used or portrayed to the media in the
5:21:21way that I'm told it will be or won't be
5:21:24just because that's the way it's played
5:21:25out so far so if they're
5:21:34saying I I guess what I'm saying is from
5:21:37my perspective at this point
5:21:39point
5:21:41it's a oneway street and initially I
5:21:46thought there were ways that I could
5:21:48manipulate this situation in this
5:21:51case all the related cases and to my
5:21:56benefit and on my
5:21:59timeline by withholding information and
5:22:01giving information out and you obviously
5:22:06over the last few months I
5:22:09came to the realization that I can't do
5:22:11that not
5:22:13realistically
5:22:15so is that real
5:22:21reason yeah I think we talked about for
5:22:24a while like you know an idea of this
5:22:26whole resolution on The Courier case
5:22:29being able to kind of structure that
5:22:31disposition around some of your demands
5:22:34and you know we touched upon that and I
5:22:35know that you we can't talk about the
5:22:37other case but right you know it seems
5:22:40to me that you know if you give us a
5:22:42list of demands in connection with
5:22:44federal case on the courriers that we
5:22:47can try to at least start meeting those
5:22:49demands and at least say you know to
5:22:52Vermont state that there's an an
5:22:54expression of an intent to continue
5:22:57cooperation in exchange for these types
5:23:00of things I yeah I understand what
5:23:03you're saying the problem is I don't
5:23:04have any typical demands or there's no
5:23:08anything you can offer me at this point
5:23:11and I realize that now I realize that
5:23:13there's more to these cases than people
5:23:17who sit in this room and we're not the
5:23:18ones who pull all the screens on this
5:23:20I'm realistic about that now
5:23:23so and
5:23:25um because of things that have happened
5:23:27over the last couple months I just feel
5:23:30like there's a lot of information that
5:23:32I've given out to date
5:23:36that 2020 Hind I wouldn't have given out
5:23:40because I feel like now no matter what I
5:23:42do it's going to become public anyway
5:23:45whereas if I hadn't given it out you
5:23:47know it wouldn't have because you
5:23:49wouldn't have it the information to give
5:23:51out in the first place well I mean from
5:23:55from our
5:23:56perspective we've done a lot to to
5:24:00respect your wishes about keeping the
5:24:02publicity low on this case and and I
5:24:05think if you recall you've even told us
5:24:07that that yeah you understand that we've
5:24:09done that now over
5:24:11time as things have slowed down we
5:24:13haven't learned about crimes then the
5:24:17FBI and the authorities around the
5:24:19country have have to take certain steps
5:24:22right I think the search warant is an
5:24:23example that you know they said hey look
5:24:26you know give us a reason to tell our to
5:24:28tell their bosses why they didn't need
5:24:29to do a search war that can release
5:24:32house they didn't move forward but they
5:24:34didn't have any reason you know so
5:24:38I think you can see that we can have a
5:24:41lot of control when we have some
5:24:43information from you and cooperation
5:24:45from you if we don't then we all lose
5:24:48control and even Vermont's letter that I
5:24:51recall like you know they had this
5:24:52letter about provide this and we just
5:24:54kind of sit back and we don't get
5:24:57involved and that's the thrust of that
5:24:59letter and I think what happened in
5:25:01Vermont after that was sort of a
5:25:02function of you know
5:25:04that's not going along with those with
5:25:07that deal and so I think that that's
5:25:10what ended up happening there you know I
5:25:13understand your perspective but at the
5:25:14same time you know I think there is a
5:25:16way to structure a deal Around The
5:25:19Courier to satisfy some of your goals
5:25:24not every one of
5:25:26them but you know we can't do that
5:25:29unless you know we sort of have a an
5:25:31exchange for future cooperation here's
5:25:34what I want to happen on The Courier
5:25:36case
5:25:39we have that I think that's a little
5:25:41bit more concrete to
5:25:44them the only
5:25:47reason The Courier case has even become
5:25:50an issue is
5:25:53because
5:25:55of me wanting to keep control of that
5:25:58situation before it became a situation
5:26:00that's why we talked about it in the
5:26:02first place Loose Ends whatever you want
5:26:05to call it that was my concern
5:26:09as far as
5:26:12longterm clearly this the whole
5:26:14situation is turning going to turn into
5:26:17longer term than I anticipated
5:26:21even from my
5:26:25perspective and so my position on it at
5:26:28this point
5:26:30is you're asking for more information
5:26:34and I am still
5:26:38waiting to see what happens with the
5:26:40information I've already
5:26:43given um so
5:26:49essentially what can happen
5:26:56is you know this is it becomes a oneway
5:26:59street until I see what comes out the
5:27:02other end on some of these other issues
5:27:05well we're also looking at from your
5:27:07from what you expressed earlier that the
5:27:09time frame we all said it was going to
5:27:10be sitting here a year from now and this
5:27:12was going back four months or five
5:27:14months so we're getting a lot closer I
5:27:15think to the year from now because so
5:27:20and you know we've also talked about the
5:27:22way that Vermont initially came out you
5:27:24know we were all kind of
5:27:27um haden't fully prepared for what could
5:27:30happen in Vermont right you've said it
5:27:31we've said it and we've learned things
5:27:34from
5:27:35how we dealt with Vermont it wouldn't
5:27:38not that need to be repeated in other
5:27:41jurisdictions so you know we have um
5:27:45information without any another
5:27:49jurisdiction we can approach them
5:27:52without even giving them any
5:27:55details I hear what you're saying but at
5:27:57the same time I feel like there's been
5:28:02several I don't want to say breach of
5:28:05trust because I know we don't trust each
5:28:07other but
5:28:09based on initial things that were said
5:28:12verbally nothing in writing I know we
5:28:14didn't have agreements hard and fast I
5:28:16just feel
5:28:17like you know especially with the last
5:28:20search warrants that were executed it
5:28:22was done in a
5:28:24way that was clearly contrary to
5:28:29what my initial intentions were for the
5:28:33way this whole thing would play out and
5:28:36uh you know I hear what you're saying as
5:28:38far as it has to be done but I what I'm
5:28:43doubtful
5:28:44about is the motivation for doing it
5:28:48your motivation or the FBI whoever's
5:28:51whoever sanctioned that their motivation
5:28:55for doing it in the way that they did
5:28:57it well hey like you said you know
5:29:01you're going to be suspicious of us
5:29:02we're going to be suspicious of you but
5:29:04frankly when we've sat down in this room
5:29:06everyone here is trying to play with you
5:29:09and I think if you look if you
5:29:11understand the reality of the situation
5:29:12then you're a pretty reality based guy I
5:29:14mean you understand how the world works
5:29:16is you
5:29:17know once you stop telling us
5:29:20significant information about other
5:29:21crimes then these guys couldn't control
5:29:24what the rest of the FBI is going to do
5:29:26and the Playbook says you know if you've
5:29:28got a serial killer you're going to have
5:29:30to go through that house right with a
5:29:33fine tooth comb even though they can say
5:29:37hey Israel's told us there's nothing
5:29:39there well you know they're going to do
5:29:42it and the only way to hold that off is
5:29:44to say well look he's cooperating he's
5:29:47giving us information but when you stop
5:29:49then there's going to be consequences
5:29:50we're really we're trying to be as
5:29:52reality based about this thing we've
5:29:54always given you what we thought was
5:29:55actually going to happen in the real
5:29:57world and it's the same thing from veran
5:30:00you know if we had had more information
5:30:01veran ver would have been a whole lot
5:30:03more quiet and Cooperative as it is
5:30:05they've been really Cooperative right
5:30:07they haven't found any charges but you
5:30:09know how long can we hold off on
5:30:11them without another piece of
5:30:16information
5:30:18so yeah I mean you're you're a
5:30:20reasonable person you think
5:30:21if use somebody else for an example this
5:30:25this type of case someone who's not
5:30:28cooperating and not talking with law
5:30:29enforcement don't you think
5:30:31that it this would have been viral
5:30:34across the United States every place
5:30:35you've ever been don't you think that I
5:30:37mean if if you hadn't been talking to us
5:30:39we don't have any other choice but to
5:30:41try to do it on our own and use all the
5:30:45information that we put together about
5:30:46you and your whereabouts and put it out
5:30:48to those communities for help and we
5:30:52haven't done that because You' been
5:30:54talking with us I even even the stuff
5:30:56we've done I mean you guys did I think a
5:30:59pretty good job even on the search
5:31:00warrants there were no statements to the
5:31:02press that we're looking for evidence of
5:31:03other crimes and you know no one stood
5:31:05in front of the camera and did that I
5:31:07mean I me your cameras you know may have
5:31:09shown up but no one said a word you know
5:31:12in in Hope of still moving forward on
5:31:15this you only be so discreet about doing
5:31:17something on like a street
5:31:20that's six houses long well especially
5:31:23if you block it off yeah I mean but well
5:31:26we were trying to prevent people who we
5:31:28didn't want there to you know to getting
5:31:30into that but you can't stop I'm just
5:31:33saying yeah you've got to go by your
5:31:35playbook but I refuse to accept that
5:31:38there weren't ways you couldn't have
5:31:39been more discreet or
5:31:42more you know that's just my impression
5:31:45I have nothing to go on other than what
5:31:47I see and my gut feeling on stuff at
5:31:49this point because I feel like I get the
5:31:51trickle down [ __ ] from all parties
5:31:54involved so you know that may or may not
5:31:57be the case but that's just where I feel
5:31:58like I'm at right now right we can't
5:32:00change your feeling but we can I mean
5:32:01we've always come into this room trying
5:32:03to give you the straight scoop um and
5:32:06we've tried to deal with you that way
5:32:08because we know that you're a smart guy
5:32:10and you know how the world works and and
5:32:13what I'm sensing what you're telling me
5:32:14now is is you're trying to look at us as
5:32:16if we've been you know manipulating no
5:32:19you somehow no I don't think anyone in
5:32:21this room has been manipulating that's
5:32:23not my concern right now my concern you
5:32:27know you're asking for more information
5:32:29you talked about it going viral if I
5:32:31give you if if I give you any more
5:32:35information and it somehow gets out and
5:32:38it gets in the paper again you know one
5:32:39more snippet of information could push
5:32:42the whole thing over the edge you know
5:32:43and then for for for the time being as
5:32:47many times as it's been in the paper and
5:32:49there's still all this speculation it
5:32:51hasn't really taken off why you think
5:32:54that is well I know it's because you
5:32:56haven't been giving official statements
5:32:57that you could which I do appreciate
5:32:59that aspect of it what I'm saying
5:33:02is until I know what's going to happen
5:33:05with certain current issues my big
5:33:07concern is
5:33:08that
5:33:10um another rumor gets out it doesn't
5:33:13have to come from you just another rumor
5:33:15from somebody I don't know and then you
5:33:18know I'm not I'm no longer in touch with
5:33:20all the different I I don't even know
5:33:21what's being said um in the media or
5:33:26what has been said about the stories I
5:33:28see little Snippets here and there but
5:33:31um that's my concern is that you know it
5:33:34could it something if something else
5:33:36were to get out and especially a
5:33:37different area or
5:33:39something then
5:33:43uh you know and and now there's the
5:33:47whole neab Bay aspect of it now too was
5:33:49like my kids living in niab Bay now and
5:33:53gossip is
5:33:55the is the town Pastime
5:33:59so that's my concern right now
5:34:03is it doesn't even have to be I feel
5:34:06like at at this point it it wouldn't
5:34:08even have to be something that was
5:34:10confirmed it could just be a rumor and
5:34:12well you're not going to get rumors
5:34:13coming out from us and you haven't so
5:34:15far the stuff that's come out is when
5:34:17there've been when the people outside of
5:34:19this room feel
5:34:21like that you're not being forthcoming
5:34:24right and we can we can be advocates for
5:34:27how we want to pursue this case but we
5:34:29need we need something to we need
5:34:31material we need currency we need
5:34:33something to Advocate
5:34:35with and that's what kind of but not
5:34:37kind of that's exactly what we've told
5:34:39you for the last 6 months or more yeah I
5:34:42understand that so what about um I mean
5:34:45just the
5:34:46idea of and I'm just thinking along the
5:34:50lines of what you know we tell them how
5:34:51just sort of stand down even just a clue
5:34:54that doesn't give up
5:34:56anything from your perspective but at
5:35:00least gives everybody something to work
5:35:02with behind the scenes nothing that we
5:35:04you know have to kind of go and
5:35:05publicize to the world but the clue
5:35:08about you know one of the past murders
5:35:11that it's really not going to reveal
5:35:13anything so you're not playing any cards
5:35:15but at least where then going back to
5:35:19these guys bosses and to Vermont and
5:35:21saying look he's given us a clue in
5:35:22exchange for this sort of discretion for
5:35:26everybody to kind of stand down so to
5:35:31speak well first of all I don't know
5:35:40you already have sure you already have a
5:35:43lot of clues that I don't know about you
5:35:45know you have you have that computer it
5:35:47would be given anything
5:35:50away I'm just I'm just saying you have I
5:35:54think you have a lot of background on me
5:35:57at this point I'm sure that that I don't
5:36:00even remember at this point
5:36:03so the bosses above us though don't know
5:36:05what's on that computer def I was on
5:36:07that computer so if let's just use
5:36:10Frank's example for a second so if you
5:36:12were to give us a
5:36:14clue they don't know our our bosses
5:36:17don't know
5:36:19what I'm being
5:36:22record bosses don't know what is on that
5:36:25computer so they're be there next
5:36:27time so they're not going to know if we
5:36:30already knew that or not Vermont doesn't
5:36:33know either they haven't seen the
5:36:35evidence so you could be giving us
5:36:37nothing but at least it's something we
5:36:40report to he reported that he committed
5:36:43a murder
5:36:45in okay big deal it's not going to give
5:36:48us anything after you know given the
5:36:49timeline that you've set forth 14 years
5:36:52but at least it's some sort of sign of
5:36:54progress we can go back and say no no
5:36:57he's actually given us a clue and uh
5:36:59things are moving forward and they can
5:37:01sort feel good about themselves and not
5:37:03doing when you when you say clue are you
5:37:05talking about giving you names or
5:37:08the name but give us name state state
5:37:11and a time frame hey you already know
5:37:13some of the states sure sure but give us
5:37:15something that we progress from where we
5:37:17were months ago is what we're looking
5:37:20for mean
5:37:22I FR hadn't talked about this clue
5:37:25idea but something that we don't
5:37:28obviously you can tell us something we
5:37:30already you have discussed in here
5:37:32that's
5:37:32not because everybody knows what's been
5:37:35discussed in here but you know let's
5:37:37assume it's something from your
5:37:39perspective you're not giving us
5:37:40anything because you think hey we
5:37:42already have it it's a clue and it's
5:37:43just something that gives us credibility
5:37:45that we can report even though you know
5:37:47maybe this is just a you know fiction
5:37:50you give us you know New York New Jersey
5:37:53all right well yeah he told us in here
5:37:55or you know uh something something other
5:37:57other thing that we can kind of report
5:37:59back that you know allows us a little
5:38:01bit of credibility with the people that
5:38:03we have to deal with something did you
5:38:07find
5:38:09any knives in New York or in the
5:38:14boat folding knives about 6 in
5:38:18long I don't know I think there might
5:38:20have been in the boat you told us there
5:38:22was thought there was knes in the boat
5:38:24right there's two knives that were not
5:38:27in Kimberly's house and I don't I don't
5:38:29know where they were I thought they were
5:38:31in that bucket I thought that they were
5:38:35there may I may have left one in New
5:38:36York or there I thought there might have
5:38:38been one The Hope just knife that I had
5:38:41from a long time
5:38:44ago but I haven't seen him in any of the
5:38:46pictures so I don't as T yeah I can find
5:38:49out about this I don't think there was a
5:38:52knife but I don't I don't remember a
5:38:55knif being in the bucket though in the
5:38:56photos
5:39:09the
5:39:12knife there was a fing
5:39:18knif why
5:39:22that well it's a folding knife so I
5:39:25don't know if you took it apart you
5:39:27might would there be Blood on the knife
5:39:28well there might not on it the
5:39:32inside is the kind that has the the
5:39:35handles are actually bolted or screwed
5:39:37to or something it's not a solid piece
5:39:38other you could disassemble it in some
5:39:40manner yeah it's like
5:39:44R is the would the blood be from a long
5:39:47time ago or just the
5:39:49knife no the blood's not from a long
5:39:51time ago but I haven't I haven't carried
5:39:54it for a while so I couldn't remember
5:39:55where it where I left
5:39:58it any other places where it might be no
5:40:03I what was in the boat it was long time
5:40:09ago well
5:40:112005
5:40:15right yeah I mean they're both knives
5:40:19that I before and those be associated
5:40:22with the
5:40:24Washington
5:40:33yeah on those lines while I'm waiting
5:40:35for Ted to respond
5:40:40guy was
5:40:43met from Ted um on those
5:40:47lines
5:40:49um we talked to um someone out at the
5:40:52lab when we're talking about you know
5:40:55when the time comes when um you decide
5:40:58that you want to give additional
5:40:59information so that we're prepared on
5:41:01what we need to do to be able to respond
5:41:03quickly we asked about you know what are
5:41:05the chances of if there is someone that
5:41:10is um somebody that there if there's a
5:41:14body at the bottom of the lake what are
5:41:15the chances of that body still being
5:41:18intact 7 years later or that kind of
5:41:21thing what are we going to be looking
5:41:22for and what do we need to have in place
5:41:24in order to be able to find find that
5:41:26and one of the things that they said um
5:41:30which might be of interest to you is
5:41:32depending on how how the body was put
5:41:35down there um it's potential it's
5:41:37possible that the body is actually very
5:41:39intact if the body was um just tied to
5:41:43something and dropped it to the bottom
5:41:44of the leg there definitely still going
5:41:46to be long bones and that kind of stuff
5:41:47you won't have finger bones and that
5:41:49kind of stuff it'll be you know femur
5:41:50and long bones and that kind of thing if
5:41:52the body was contained in something um
5:41:54even a a bag of some sort um it's very
5:41:58possible that the body could still be
5:42:00intact um depending on the depth of the
5:42:03lake um all of that determines
5:42:09the kind of equipment that we would need
5:42:11in
5:42:11order you know in order to locate um
5:42:16Locate the
5:42:18body um and so obviously not asking for
5:42:22details about where and who and all that
5:42:24kind of stuff but in terms of of the
5:42:28Washington
5:42:30bodies were they contained in something
5:42:32or were they just
5:42:34tied to the milk jugs
5:42:37I mean is it something where we we might
5:42:39possibly actually still get it
5:42:41intact no no okay then that's helpful
5:42:44for them to know because that that's a
5:42:46whole different type of search that it
5:42:48would have to be than a different type
5:42:49of
5:42:54equipment and try to
5:42:58call and do you I guess because I'm kind
5:43:01of getting a different vibe now do you
5:43:03still Envision in the future us working
5:43:08together to the point where we we can
5:43:10get this
5:43:12information yeah I don't see how we're
5:43:14going to get anything else
5:43:16done I just
5:43:20uh I I know you're waiting for you know
5:43:22whatever you're waiting for to find out
5:43:24but yeah I have I have concerns with
5:43:28current issues but you know I
5:43:32I I can definitely foresee down the road
5:43:35there's going to be
5:43:37a lot
5:43:39more that can be resolved okay and
5:43:43that's good learn about it in a
5:43:45different manner okay well but that's
5:43:48good information because we'll be able
5:43:49to pass that on if you're still open and
5:43:51you're
5:43:52still no I haven't my uh outlook on this
5:43:57as far as the ultimate end result hasn't
5:43:59really changed it's
5:44:03just has more to do with
5:44:08timelines expectations but and you know
5:44:10and we're the balancing game we're that
5:44:12we're talking about doing is we're just
5:44:14trying to
5:44:15keep everybody happy the best we can
5:44:19till we get to that point and those are
5:44:21the those are the that's kind of the
5:44:23difficult Balancing Act for us right it
5:44:26sounds like you're holding on to some of
5:44:27this stuff to trade in for something you
5:44:28might need later true well yeah have
5:44:32much else well that's the thing is you
5:44:35know this whole clue idea you know give
5:44:37us a little shortterm solution how to
5:44:39keep this thing moving the way we want
5:44:40it to
5:44:41move um and maybe even gets you
5:44:44something in the short term you know if
5:44:45you're thinking about like I don't know
5:44:47you know you come you give a clue and uh
5:44:50you know you want lunch or something
5:44:52like that I mean that's something that
5:44:53can be worked out you need a candy bar
5:44:55any I know that's why I think you know I
5:44:57don't know if he feels guilty about it
5:44:58but you have a cigar you probably
5:45:00probably pass out cigar right now but I
5:45:02mean the notion the notion of this whole
5:45:05idea is you know you you come over we
5:45:08keep things going you know at least on
5:45:10on a on a smaller scale you're not
5:45:12giving up anything in terms of trading
5:45:14value but you're giving us credibility
5:45:17with other people we have to deal with
5:45:19you know not giving us any useful
5:45:21information really other than all right
5:45:23well we got you know a knife in
5:45:27Washington it's not like we're going to
5:45:28solve the Clue game on that like you
5:45:30know Professor Plum and the library that
5:45:32thing but it it gives us a little bit of
5:45:37stuff to go back with people and buy
5:45:38time and buy what we need to buy and you
5:45:41know in the short term you know you have
5:45:43shortterm needs that you think you know
5:45:44might be fun to have
5:45:48sushi that's something that you know can
5:45:50be
5:45:51arranged we're not talking about you
5:45:53know huge Clues
5:45:59here what did you guys find in the boat
5:46:02was there anything
5:46:04left I thought we went over t
5:46:08there was no knife Oh you mean in terms
5:46:10of the lab yeah the um it has not
5:46:14everything has not gone to uh finished
5:46:16up at DNA yet um so it's possible there
5:46:19were still um there were some some areas
5:46:22that did test positive for blood just
5:46:24when they do like a they call it a
5:46:26presumptive test when the people that
5:46:27were searching it so those things went
5:46:29into the lab and some of those things
5:46:30were like the screws from holding the
5:46:32carpeting in and that kind of thing
5:46:34those have not come back yet from DNA um
5:46:37um the little uh there were some little
5:46:41fragments that they thought might have
5:46:43been bone fragment was not bone they're
5:46:46not test positive for bone that was come
5:46:47back something yeah they didn't we
5:46:50didn't ask what it was but it was bone
5:46:55um there's some hair
5:46:59that um is not
5:47:03yours but the way they figure out hair I
5:47:06was I was most curious if they found any
5:47:08blood I wasn't sure how long cuz it's
5:47:10been sitting there in the rain for so
5:47:12long I was curious if there was I mean I
5:47:13know there was when I parked it yeah
5:47:17there was I don't we haven't heard
5:47:19anything back about it and then they
5:47:22they need something to compare it with
5:47:26right so there's no night no night
5:47:29there's no night the
5:47:30vat it may have been uh
5:47:39I don't know what happened to that night
5:47:40it was a Tonto Cold Steel
5:47:46Tonto how big like was it a it had
5:47:52a it was a four 4 and 1/2 in folding
5:47:58blade and I think I bought it at Walmart
5:48:07you remember what
5:48:08color was it looks very similar to the
5:48:10one that I had on me when I was
5:48:14arrested just a different blade style
5:48:17same company and everything I
5:48:21think I'm correct about that that was
5:48:23the murder weapon for one of the
5:48:25Washington
5:48:26murders well it was involved it was
5:48:29involved I think we talked about before
5:48:32when we were asking about Federal
5:48:34jurisdiction about guns
5:48:38where those vitim
5:48:42shot
5:48:54strangled we'll get the whole story
5:48:57eventually get part so we can move no
5:49:00only person I ever shot was uh cier
5:49:04everybody else is Str
5:49:12yeah I don't want to have the wrong
5:49:13impression you know so everybody else
5:49:16was strangled war was there something
5:49:25else um
5:49:44oh one of the Washington things there
5:49:46was
5:50:02a doesn't matter it's just no it wasn't
5:50:05it wasn't
5:50:14I hit somebody in the head
5:50:17so did that did you mean to kill them or
5:50:19they
5:50:21die is there a struggle and you hit them
5:50:24and they died or did you mean to kill
5:50:25them that
5:50:30way wasn't trying to kill him I just uh
5:50:34take him out of
5:50:35action I think we read that in one of
5:50:39the those letters was the the
5:50:42mail female
5:50:46couple I
5:50:50saw Rich mention that they gave you all
5:50:54that
5:50:57stuff I should have asked him to give me
5:51:01copy so I know which ones you
5:51:05have we could do go over that together
5:51:10and you can fill in these
5:51:14blanks at some point in
5:51:19time well we know in I didn't realize
5:51:21they were allowed to take Stu out of my
5:51:23wasn't main
5:51:29pretty well we know from that that there
5:51:32a couple in Washington state male female
5:51:35couple
5:51:36read that in the are those the same
5:51:40couple from the that you took to the
5:51:41boat and dumped in the
5:51:56lake yeah that
5:51:59was that was a long time
5:52:03AG right after the is that right after
5:52:05the military you told was right after
5:52:07the military after you got out of the
5:52:11military it was before I got the
5:52:16boat and you told us one time that you
5:52:18know it wasn't long when you got out of
5:52:19the military that
5:52:21you killed somebody and it was that sort
5:52:24of feeling that you needed to do
5:52:26something that was hard to resist
5:52:36fair to say that we're looking at a lot
5:52:38around more around the Washington area
5:52:40than
5:52:48not just the two in
5:52:53Washington there there's a
5:52:55couple a couple in Washington
5:53:01and that right
5:53:16yeah so if we can't find this
5:53:20knife guess unfortunately that doesn't
5:53:22need as much to go
5:53:27on and we took I know we had some KN I
5:53:30don't know what all we
5:53:33have is it possible was that Kim I don't
5:53:36think so I haven't seen it for several
5:53:40years could be in a different Washington
5:53:43cash
5:54:02no a couple of husband and wife do you
5:54:05know
5:54:10I'm not going to talk about
5:54:14that what about other cach is like
5:54:17another cash
5:54:46well the other cashes aren't related to
5:54:48any I mean that that one in New York is
5:54:50the only one directly related to
5:54:52murderous
5:54:54part the guns some of the guns were sto
5:54:57well that would give us something to go
5:54:58on if there was a cash that they could
5:55:00go
5:55:12that would keep I think that would keep
5:55:13the FBI busy
5:55:19yeah I'll have to think about which ones
5:55:21I
5:55:24part that's right you it all still
5:55:27belongs to
5:55:28me you you the one that you wanted to
5:55:31give up that maybe we might be able to
5:55:33work something out with the our video oh
5:55:36yeah that's a good idea well that's
5:55:38another issue is the other is I can't
5:55:40find just with satellite map so a
5:55:44general area yeah well if you gave them
5:55:46a general area they could probably get
5:55:47some we we just have to have enough
5:55:49information to get a hold of you know
5:55:51Tech person that covers that area right
5:55:56so again you know would be a cash it's
5:55:57not related to anything you're really
5:55:59not giving up any of your cards to trade
5:56:01with well that's the issue they're all
5:56:02related to stuff they're
5:56:05just yeah I just have
5:56:09to have to think about it well you want
5:56:12to try and remember what's in yeah yeah
5:56:15it's sort of interesting for you too
5:56:16you'll get to see what's in there and
5:56:18you'll get to see them again yeah like
5:56:19one of those oh [ __ ] moments you dig it
5:56:22up and I see what's in there Israel
5:56:24there's been too many o yeah well I've
5:56:26had enough I've had my share for the
5:56:28year oh you know this is just the
5:56:31way well why don't you why don't you if
5:56:34you were able to do that that's going to
5:56:35buy
5:56:37give everybody something to do and
5:56:38people like to have something to do they
5:56:40can be digging up a
5:56:44cash and then you'll get to see how the
5:56:47video works and you'll get to see what's
5:56:48in there how long does a body last in a
5:56:52freshwater like I mean there's no
5:56:54Critters that you it depends how depends
5:56:58deep I learned a lot it depend How deep
5:57:00the temperature of the water and if the
5:57:02body's contained in and it's not
5:57:04Critters it can be like bacteria or they
5:57:08were talking if the water is below
5:57:11say 45 degrees all the time I think that
5:57:15be
5:57:16good I think you said up to 80 ft one
5:57:19point told no there's one that's a lot
5:57:23deeper but 200 ft so we should like get
5:57:26a submarine or deeper deeper than 200 ft
5:57:31you guys know about Lake Crescent in
5:57:34Washington
5:57:36how deep is it I think that lake is 5 to
5:57:39700 ft deep they've never been to the
5:57:42bottom of it there people who have gone
5:57:43off that Lake they still have their cars
5:57:47are and that's the lake that's one of
5:57:49the Lakes so this is really neat so
5:57:52never recover well it's over 200
5:57:57ft deepest part but I'm saying I don't
5:58:00know how deep it was I know the general
5:58:02area I had a fish finder but it didn't
5:58:04register how deep it was I just know it
5:58:06was over out at 100t oh is that your
5:58:09fish goes to 100 I think I don't
5:58:10remember I just know if you've been to
5:58:12the lake you would see what I'm talking
5:58:15about it drops down like a V so but you
5:58:18didn't go to the 500 foot place is right
5:58:21no I was I was in a I was near the edge
5:58:24but you know 30 ft out from the bank on
5:58:26that Lake it goes it drops down to 50 60
5:58:29ft already and I was so
5:58:32anyway they the lab was talking about a
5:58:34case recently actually where recovered a
5:58:36car that had been submerged in water and
5:58:39I don't know how deep it was even in but
5:58:40it was it was a relatively Cold Lake and
5:58:43because it had been submerged and water
5:58:45still got in but Critters and other
5:58:47people weren't able to get in the car
5:58:48and that was in the' 40s in the 1940s
5:58:51and part of the body was still intact
5:58:53because the the person wasn't protected
5:58:55by the car so there's a lot of factors
5:58:57that go
5:58:58into but there will definitely um even
5:59:02if there wasn't skin or things like that
5:59:03long bones will be can be recover
5:59:07is because
5:59:14small yeah I know know
5:59:18they but if there's other if there's
5:59:20other specifics in terms of things that
5:59:23you know of depths and temperatures and
5:59:25that kind of stuff you can certainly
5:59:27make some phone calls and find out what
5:59:29well I figured you would have guessed
5:59:30that way that was pretty
5:59:34obvious but but
5:59:38um I was I always have been curious as
5:59:41to what it look like I would think as
5:59:43deep as that lake is it's probably
5:59:44sitting there just exactly as it was
5:59:47when I first touch
5:59:51down I know most fresh water that deep
5:59:55there aren that many fish that go down
6:00:00that but that one's not in anything it's
6:00:02just ropes or something hold it is that
6:00:04the milk jugs that you said well that's
6:00:06what the weights were milk jokes how
6:00:08many milk jokes it going to move
6:00:11around no how many
6:00:18mil at least four
6:00:22five just for one
6:00:30bu what about a cash that they can work
6:00:32on for next week
6:00:46well the easiest would be
6:00:49washing so I
6:00:51don't know my way around there a little
6:00:54better the agents but I have to I
6:01:03have try to remember what's in it you
6:01:05want to line do you want them to line it
6:01:07up that's the thing we can't be we can't
6:01:08make the decision that day because they
6:01:10won't have time to yeah they won't have
6:01:13time to line it
6:01:15up you think about yeah but you think
6:01:19about it over the weekend or
6:01:21something
6:01:23yeah
6:01:25um and if there's anything you want like
6:01:28it give me like an hour on the internet
6:01:33maybe before before we do this
6:01:37want an
6:01:38hour you do a little
6:01:41research I've been I've been I've beened
6:01:44info blackout for too
6:01:49long I think it's you know you can think
6:01:51about that and do anything you want
6:01:52short term in terms of I was joking I
6:01:55wouldn't do that anyone no I'm not
6:01:56talking about the internet I'm talking
6:01:57about like if you want some sort of
6:01:59right I'm going to do this but you
6:02:01wouldn't do that on the internet if we
6:02:03set a computer down here you're just
6:02:04going to go right to everywhere I went
6:02:07we wouldn't do that to you
6:02:10no uh but yeah no anything you know to
6:02:14kind of satisfying shortterm goals you
6:02:17have even if it's just food or coffee or
6:02:20you know whatever obviously coffee
6:02:22anyway
6:02:23but you know again it's sort of a
6:02:26situation where I think you're not
6:02:27giving up anything just giving us help
6:02:29with whoever we need to persuade right I
6:02:32think you know no I I can see your I I
6:02:34see your point of view I do on this but
6:02:38at the same time I have my own
6:02:40frustrations right now as well so but
6:02:43but even like this is productive this
6:02:45will be D just productive you know I
6:02:46mean you said you came over we we got
6:02:49stuff and so it's only productive from a
6:02:52non prosecuting attorney
6:02:55fire
6:02:58produc you already got me enough stuff
6:03:01it's okay it's okay know getting out
6:03:04onil anytime working trying to work with
6:03:07you I am but from my perspective you
6:03:09know Israel said he's going to do a lot
6:03:11of things on a short time frame and
6:03:12we've been sitting here yeah cing the
6:03:14months away and believe me I'm aware of
6:03:17the months clicking I'm just
6:03:24uh having a new appreciation for things
6:03:27being done at a different speed that's
6:03:31all so let me just make sure I clear on
6:03:35the C
6:03:37um do you have a general area now that
6:03:39you can give us or do you want to think
6:03:41about it Washington right but I mean
6:03:42even there's two dist State and we have
6:03:46we have offices in a bunch of places so
6:03:47we'd have to figure out which office
6:03:49we're working
6:03:55with within 50 or 100 miles of is there
6:03:58anything close to ni Bay or area yeah
6:04:02not near NE Bay but in that that area
6:04:08okay outside of Seattle between Seattle
6:04:10and right you already met those agents
6:04:13already
6:04:18so I see that top
6:04:26picture there's more pictures from this
6:04:28too I didn't grab them all I can print
6:04:30them all out and have them for you next
6:04:31time
6:04:36I know there were a couple
6:04:44uh lot of gun parts and pieces but I
6:04:48don't any in this
6:04:56one
6:04:59pict okay
6:05:02so do you want me to try to set that up
6:05:04for next week I don't know I'm obviously
6:05:06not going to know what day Angeles
6:05:20somewhere yeah I don't don't set up a
6:05:22time yet I got to try and remember once
6:05:25you get the computer you can look right
6:05:27now
6:05:29one is that going to help Google you can
6:05:32look at Google right now you want you
6:05:34know the area
6:05:36I'm trying to remember what's in it he's
6:05:37trying to remember what that's probably
6:05:39not going to be
6:05:40on we can find that together we'll just
6:05:42you open it up we do like Alon BS it's
6:05:45not that impressive
6:05:47it's I'm more concerned about the little
6:05:49stuff that might be in it
6:06:06well well well things you never thought
6:06:08you'd be talking
6:06:09about
6:06:18um and
6:06:25then on the Tupper leg thing you had
6:06:28agents up there with the cameras but you
6:06:30just wanted to talk about the bank
6:06:32robbery or were you well we what we had
6:06:34set up was we just had had them at the
6:06:36bank robbery parking lot to show you the
6:06:40live feed that we could do we can talk
6:06:43about whatever you want to talk about we
6:06:44didn't have any expectations but we
6:06:46thought the natural progression because
6:06:47of what we've been talking would be in
6:06:49that general area so we wanted to get
6:06:51things moving there right you know and
6:06:55if you wanted to just like pull out of
6:06:57the parking lot and then take us to the
6:06:59river band that's all the better but
6:07:02yeah I was just you would be driving
6:07:04yeah it would be like
6:07:06you
6:07:16so cuz we thought maybe that's how it's
6:07:18going to have to be eventually maybe is
6:07:20that you might have to be in the
6:07:21driver's seat s to speak to
6:07:24see you know landmarks or whatever you
6:07:26need to
6:07:30see yeah
6:07:39it's almost as good as being out I like
6:07:42to tell you we were going to drive you
6:07:43to the dig site we were going to show
6:07:44you what we were doing
6:08:02but I'm having a harder time remembering
6:08:04roads than P Angel when I wasn't I'm
6:08:08sure I can figure it out need that now
6:08:11to
6:08:14[Music]
6:08:20no um all right so we won't set it up
6:08:24we'll just we'll get them working on it
6:08:27though because get their Tech yeah pet
6:08:30geeky guy has to get the camera and get
6:08:32everything all kind of set up right so
6:08:35we will get that moving and
6:08:38then we can touch Bas get the beginning
6:08:42of next
6:08:43week and
6:08:46uh have a better idea of of what your
6:08:49schedule is going to be like and figure
6:08:51out when and I'll know at that point
6:08:52what their schedule's going to be and we
6:08:54can maybe figure out sometime that would
6:08:56work yeah we might
6:09:01be we might be able to have another
6:09:03meeting next week
6:09:23all right what we may do then Jeff as
6:09:25Jeff and I may come by the jail and just
6:09:28figure out that piece that we were just
6:09:30talking about um about the timing and
6:09:34then we can and go from
6:09:40there in the meantime I'm supposed to
6:09:42talk to the m tomorrow and I'll just
6:09:43tell them
6:09:47that other Clues and use that to our
6:09:53advantage yeah I don't really
6:09:59understand it's frustrating my
6:10:02perspective as well
6:10:06I mean hypothetically if they charge me
6:10:09federally would you indict would they
6:10:11indict me up here would they I just
6:10:13don't understand considering everything
6:10:16else that's going on why they
6:10:19would or how I guess not why but how it
6:10:22would work I don't like the logistics of
6:10:24it well like I said they want they want
6:10:26to be able to H out that that crime Sol
6:10:28right they want to they want to put my
6:10:29name on it I understand that it's not
6:10:31going to be officially solved till
6:10:34exactly but you want to be able put your
6:10:37to and then the question is how's that
6:10:40you to work do they want to file
6:10:42charges there and you know that's what
6:10:44we're doing it's a lot easier for them
6:10:47just to stomach it if they you know
6:10:49their forbearance is giving rise to
6:10:51Clues to other murders you know whatever
6:10:54those Clues might be I think that that
6:10:57is able to accomplish our
6:11:01goal I understand their
6:11:03perspective I
6:11:08from my perspective though even if they
6:11:09were to officially charge me at this
6:11:12point it's not
6:11:15uh not like it would be real breaking
6:11:17news
6:11:18anyway I think you know in some ways it
6:11:21would be because no law enforcement
6:11:22person has ever confirmed that you're
6:11:24attached to that so it would just be
6:11:26confirmation of everyone's current
6:11:33speculation so I I I don't I'm not
6:11:36interested in it from that point I was
6:11:37just interested in it from a logistics
6:11:39point do they have to fly me to Vermont
6:11:41they're going to charge me
6:11:43or are some of the questions hoping not
6:11:46to get
6:11:49there is it
6:11:54War just got snow day we talked to them
6:11:57Monday it just snowed they told more
6:11:59snow that us then
6:12:06got a for
6:12:12last
6:12:21questions you got to take a leak or
6:12:23anything before we
6:12:27take you're not going to eat this no I'm
6:12:30good thank you sure yeah I'm sure
6:13:04what for

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of "They DESERVED IT": FULL 6 HOUR INTERROGATION OF SERIAL KILLER ISRAEL KEYES by Dark Crimes Watch, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 52,677 words across 7,651 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.